presented a petition-from Charles Bucke, of Islington, complaining of the imperfect state of the law for the Protection of Literary Property. The right hon. gentleman observed, that the, rights of authors in their literary productions were less respected by; the law and the tribunals of this country, than in any other having pretensions to literary, character. Persons of the highest literary fame had had their dramatic productions represented, on the stage wholly against their consent. Lord Byron and Mr. Mill-man had had to complain of abuses of this, kind but they were without redress. The petitioner had to complain of a similar abuse. He had written a tragedy, which the proprietors of one of the large theatres had brought out on the stage against his consent. He now prayed for the enactment of a law, that no person shall, during the period of an author's life, and, in case of death, for the period of fourteen years from the first publication of his piece, perform any tragedy, &c. without the consent of the author.

said, it was extremely hard upon authors, that when they produced a work of a dramatic character, intending it only for the press and not for the stage, they should, by the cupidity of managers in bringing, it out for representation, be put, nolens volens into the very disagreeable situation of damned authors.

Ordered to lie on the table.

said, he held in his band a petition, which he was instructed to present from a most respectable body of persons. In the prayer of the petition, or the allegations on which it was founded, he did not generally concur, and he had so stated to them; but still they wished that he should present their case to the House. The petition was from a very respectable body of manufacturers in Birmingham, and was signed by eight thousand individuals, who, with the exception of five, had signed it without any solicitation. The substance of the petition was, in the first place, the declaration of a very notorious feet; namely, the prevalence of very great distress throughout the manufacturing districts, and more especially in the town of Birmingham. This distress they ascribe to the bill which, as they state, tampered with the currency; and they gave a measure of the depreciation which he confessed. of did not clearly Comprehend; for they said it amounted to fifty per cent, but in their illustration they made it one hundred per cent, by asserting that the effect was, to double the debt of 800 millions, as well as the 55 millions of taxes which the public had to pay. According to his judgment, the depreciation did not, at any time, exceed thirty per cent, and that was when the price of gold was 5l. 7s. 10d. per ounce. After affirming their distress, they went on to suggest a remedy; which was, that the government should establish such a just and equitable currency as would raise the price of labour, and at the same time give vigour to the manufacturing interests, Now, with respect to the depreciation, he admitted that it had its effect upon the condition of the petitioners, but he denied that it involved the whole of the 800 millions of debt, for a great part of that was assuredly incurred before the depreciation of the currency,—which depreciation was not admitted until lord King's pamphlet, in the year 1800. The petitioners complained (and there he certainly agreed with them) that there was a great deal of undeserved obloquy cast upon the country bankers; as a proof of which they stated, that out of the seventy bankers who had failed during the panic of 1825, sixty of them had paid twenty shillings in the pound. The petitioners denied the existence of over-trading, over-production, and over-population; but he did not concur in the cogency of their reasoning upon the topic of over-trading; for he remembered when some of our manufacturers exported ship-loads of saddles to countries where such articles were never used, cargoes of earthenware where there could be no demand for it, and even coals to countries where there was more timber than the inhabitants could consume. The experience of the Speculations to Buenos-Ayres in 1806 and 1807, was, he thought, a clear proof that there was such a thing as over-trading. As to over-population, he feared that the instance of Ireland was alone sufficient to establish the fact. The petitioner also stated, that fact. The petitioners also stated, that there ought to be no restraint imposed upon agricultural imports, and they particularly complained, that when the change in the currency was arranged, it was not accompanied by a corresponding reduction of taxation, and there he entirely agreed with the petitioners; for nothing could have been more inopportune than the laying on 3 or 4 millions of taxes in 1819; and he also agreed with them, that all those salaries, civil or military, which had in former years been raised an account of the depreciation of money, ought now to be reduced when a metallic circulation prevailed. He wished he could as easily see the relief which the petitioners looked for, as emanating from these reductions; for after they were all made, he feared the weight of 800 millions of debt, and its 30 or 40 millions of interest, would still be a heavy load on the national industry. In wishing to do full justice to the views of the petitioners, he must at the same time express his opinion, that the country could not now retrace its steps and fall back upon a depreciated currency. This, he was persuaded, the legislature could not attempt; it was an experiment which would be fatal to the best interests of the community. At all events, he concurred with that part of the prayer of the petition, which in the strongest manner urged the government to lose not a moment in causing such a reduction of the public burthens as was consistent with the real exigencies of the state, and the just demands of the people.

said, the petitioners had solicited his support of the prayer of this petition, but he could not give it, because he believed that the change in the currency was not the cause of the present distress. He could not consent to change the existing medium of the currency, because it would only have the effect of restoring that fictitious system of credit which had been so fatal in its results. At present, any man capable of producing adequate security, could get whatever money he pleased from his banker; and that was the sound state upon which credit ought to rest.

concurred with the petitioners, that all the mischief of which they complained had arisen from the alteration of the currency, without due regard to the probable effect of the change upon all other money denominations. He likewise condemned the kind of standard for gold which this country had set up, and which had no corresponding standard in any other kingdom in the world.

said, that the great cause of the distress of the country had arisen from the Sinking-fund. It had the most fatal effects upon the manufacturers of the country, and was entirely inapplicable to the present state of the nation.

said, that every thing he had heard confirmed the opinions he had invariably expressed, of the grievances endured by the people from the impolitic measures of their government.

said, he was decidedly of opinion that the alteration which had been made in the currency was one of the greatest errors that ever was committed. The farmer at the present moment was compelled to sell double the quantity of produce to pay his rent and taxes, than it was formerly necessary for him to do. He now paid three sovereigns, instead of three 1l. notes, to meet the interest on the three per cent consols. It was the opinion of Mr. Ricardo and other eminent men, that some alteration must be effected with respect to the debt. Those individuals argued, that it must be discharged, in one way or other, before the country could fully adopt the principles of free trade; and he was convinced that some remedy, in the shape of a property tax, or some measure of that description, must be carried into effect, in order to meet the exigencies of the country. If they did not think it proper to have recourse to so strong a measure as that, they would be driven to the necessity of adopting palliatives, such as were to be found in an extended paper currency, and other projects of a similar nature. At the time when there was an extended paper currency the rents were paid; and he knew that, in consequence of the refusal of accommodation to the farmers by the country bankers, a very great deficiency was observable in the sums received by the landlords at Lady-day. It was utterly impossible, looking to the low price paid for articles of consumption, that this country could continue to maintain so overwhelming as extent of taxation.

said, the conviction of his mind was, that it was impossible for them to go on for another session, in the way in which they had been proceeding for some time past. The petition was very important. The points to which it directed their attention were of first-rate consequences; and he was extremely sorry that the hon. and learned gentleman below him had not himself stated his opinion as to what measures were necessary to meet the evils by which the country was beset on every side. He agreed entirely in the statement made by the petitioners, that while the means of meeting taxation were greatly reduced, the weight of the debt was almost doubled. He begged leave to call the attention of the House to the fallacious statements which had been made with respect to the growing prosperity of the country. It appeared by papers which he had in his possession, that the real value of the exports of British manufactures in 1798 and 1799, exceeded the official value more than 14,000,000l., and that the official value had been advancing while the real value had been decreasing, and to so great an extent, that, in 1828, the real value was below the official nearly 16,000,000l. it also appeared that had the real value kept its relative position with the official, it would, instead of being only 36,000,000l. in 1828, have amounted to 86,500,000l.; showing an actual depreciation of nearly 50,000,000l., or ninety-seven per cent. Taking the aggregate of the last three years, the exports were, in real value, less in amount than the official by more than 40,000,000l., although it would appear that there was an increase in the official value of 12,000,000l. in the last two years. Independently of the difference between the real and the official value, it would be seen that the export trade had declined in real value for the last thirty years to a vast amount. If gentlemen compared the aggregate amount of the exports of the last six years in real value with that of the six preceding years (1816 to 1822), they would be found to have fallen off 13,500,000l. Comparing the same with the six prior years (1810 to 1816), they were less by 41,000,000l.; compared with the six years further back (1804) to 1810), they were less by 52,000,000l.; and with those of 1798 to 1804, less by 35,000,000l. Taking the average of the whole period,—the last six years, as compared with the twenty-five preceding years, were less in real value by nearly 6,000,000l. per annum; and this, it must be remarked, did not comprise the decrease in the export of colonial or foreign produce. The decrease in real value of colonial and foreign produce exported for the last eight years, as compared with those of 1814 to 1822, was 4,500,000l. per annum; the annual decrease in British goods exported in the same period, by like comparison, was nearly 9,000,000l., making together an annual decrease of 13,500,000l. for the last eight years in our export trade. And yet, while things were going on in this way, they had the madness to suffer the country to be inundated with French goods. While this depreciation had been going on, the taxes had remained stationary; and were about 50,000,000l. per annum; whilst insolvency, crime, and pauperism, had rapidly increased. It was impossible that such a state of things could long continue. This was a subject which one day or other would force itself upon the attention of the House and the government, and they must sooner or later either give protection to the trade of the country, so as to enable it to sustain the present immense burthen of taxation, or return back to a paper currency.

said, that nothing that had fallen from the worthy alderman had more astonished him than the statement that the foreign trade of this country had greatly declined of late years. The worthy alderman, in making that statement, should recollect that the official value merely stated the quantity of goods exported, and that the declared value stated the real value which the various commodities exported at the time bore in the market. Now, in comparing the present period with the year 1814, it would be seen that a considerable fall had taken place in the real value of articles of commerce, partly arising from the alteration in our currency, and partly attributable to other causes, such as the greater cheapness now of the raw material for manufactures, and the vast improvements that had been made in our manufacturing machinery. It could be easily shown that there had been a vast increase in the quantity of articles exported from this country. He would refer but to one document to show that the progress made in the foreign trade of this country was unexampled in the history of any country in the world. From 1790 to 1799, the annual average exports of this country, stated in official value (which stated the quantity), amounted to 17,670,000l. From 1800 to 1809, the annual average amount was 26,241,000l.; from 1810 to 1820,the annual average amount was 36,924,000l.,—showing an increase in the annual average of exports of 10,000,000l. for each period of ten years respectively. From 1821 to 1826 the annual average amount was 45,110,000l.; in 1827 it was 51,276,000l.; and in 1828 it rose to 52,049,000l. And this was the great fall in the foreign trade of the country which the worthy alderman deplored. He should not enter into the subject of the currency; he never could find that any of those honourable members who complained of the present state of our currency, were ready with any specific plan to meet the situation of the currency. It was true, that great pressure had arisen from the change from a paper to a metallic currency. It was equally certain, that to tamper with the currency of any country must be followed by a certain degree of distress, and that it was impossible to return from a paper to a metallic currency without producing suffering in the country. But the question was, whether they were to have a fluctuating currency, under which no man could be for one day certain of the value of his property, and which tended to drive capital out of the country, or whether they should not establish a currency leas liable to sudden changes and fluctuations. He did not take the gloomy view which the worthy alderman and others had taken of the prospects of the country; and he totally differed from them as to the remedy for our present difficulties. He looked upon the entire relaxation of our commercial laws, so as to allow the free employment and circulation of capital, as one of the best means of restoring the prosperity of the country; and he looked forward to the opening of the trade to India as a measure calculated to remove much of the distress under which the country laboured. It had been said, that the distress of the country was principally owing to the contraction of, and consequent rise in, the currency. If that were the case, when the currency was depreciated to the fullest possible extent must be the period when we should look for the greatest state of prosperity.

said, the hon. and learned gentleman who had presented this petition had stated, that though he disagreed with its more material allegations, yet that there was one part of it in which he entirely coincided; namely; that considerable relief might be given by diminution of expenditure and decrease of taxation: now this was all mere delusion; there could be, under our debt and our habits and our necessary establishments, no sensible relief from decrease of expenditure; and diminution of taxation, rebus sic stantibus, could be neither mere nor less than accelerated bankruptcy.—He said, he had so often troubled the House on the subject of the currency, that even in the few words he should now venture, he approached it with, trepidation. The main and leading cause of all our embarrassment was the fixing the standard in 1819 at the arbitrary price of gold in 1711; since which period the prices of all other articles had increased three-fold. There, Mr. Gurney said, he took his stand in 1818, and every thing which had occurred since had gone to confirm him in the opinions which he then held. From that time to this, there had been alternations of pressure, as things were brought to that test, or were left flowing when Paper values, gold not being demanded, practically superseded it.—It was perfectly clear, that we could not go on without the use of a certain amount of circulating credit; but of this the one and five pound notes had, at all times, been a very minor part—the much greater proportion having always consisted of bills of exchange and other negociable securities. Now, whenever there was a great stagnation of commerce, there was, of this larger circulation, an incalculable diminution. As consumption went on, and stocks diminished, it might be expected that trade would become somewhat more active; and that the consequent creation of bills of exchange, might be found to give prices something of a lift. Should this happen, the question would be, whether sufficient paper to float our transactions could or could not be kept passing from hand to hand, when resolveable into heavy gold. If it should prove so, it would be fortunate; if it proved otherwise, Mr. Gurney said, he saw no remedy but issue of paper in some shape or other; but whatever paper it might be found necessary to issue for the wants of the community, he trusted that it never again would be allowed to be issued on the responsibility of the private bankers.

said, it had not been his intention to address the House on this occasion, but he though that common justice would not be done to the petitioners, if some of the errors and misrepresentations into which the hon. and learned gentleman who presented their petition had fallen with regard to it, (unconsciously he was quite satisfied) were not set right. When the hon. and learned gentleman told the House that he was acquainted with such circumstances, as that cargoes of goods badly assorted had been sent by traders to different markets, at different times, and that such cargoes were unsuited to those markets, what he stated was on doubt correctly true; but the slightest consideration would have shewn him, that such statement could not well be in contradiction to any thing said by those whose petition he presented, and whose opinions he believed he was disputing. The eight thousand traders by whom the petition was signed, could scarcely have meant to assert, that no example of ignorance, imprudence, or extravagance was to be found in trade: that was as little likely as that any consi- derable body of men should maintain the proposition, that of the six hundred and fifty members which compose the House of Commons, every one of them was an example of perfect wisdom and perfect virtue. The meaning of the petitioners was, not that no examples of partial over-trading have taken place, or can take place, as the hon. and learned gentleman seems to have understood them; but they assume it to have been maintained in this House and elsewhere, that at certain recent periods, a kind of rage or madness for over-trading has distinguished the general operations of commerce: and that the consequence of this has been, to involve all productive industry in that universal and overwhelming distress which has prevailed to so great a degree, as to have brought the country itself to the verge of ruin. This is what the petitioners intended to deny, and this is the proposition they have controverted.

Again, the hon. and learned gentleman remarked rather pointedly, on the calculation which the petitioners have given, of the extent to which the depreciation of our paper money had been carried. Now he himself has admitted that the price of bullion is no correct indication of this extent. To what other criterion, then, are we to have recourse? Doubtless to the general price of commodities; or if this be too vague and inconvenient a measure, then, to the price of bread corn. Now Mr. Horner, who will be taken as a very unexceptionable authority on this branch of the subject, gave in 1811 an elaborate calculation of the extent to which depreciation had then been carried, as evinced by, 1st, the price of bullion, which he called the practical measure of value; and next by the price of bread corn, which he denominated, its paramount, and real standard: and the degree of depreciation which this latter standard then gave, amounted precisely to fifty per cent. He thought therefore that the hon. and learned gentleman would not consider himself warranted in imputing extravagance to the estimate of depreciation given by the petitioners when that estimate given vaguely and without assuming minute accuracy, was shewn to be very much in agreement with the result of the calculation made by Mr. Horner in 1811, from the price of bread corn; indeed of two calculations, the result of both of which corresponded, the one including the price of corn in years of scarcity, and the other leaving out such years. Into the important question generally which the petition brought under the view of the House, Mr. Attwood said, it was not his intention to enter. And one reason for that was, that he entertained now, the same opinion which had been quoted by his hon. friend the member for Norfolk (Mr. Wodehouse), as having been expressed by the hon. and learned gentleman himself in 1822. That hon. and learned gentleman then said, that this question of the currency must of necessity be reconsidered: that it would force itself again and again on the attention of the House. He (Mr. A) was convinced of that now, as firmly as the hon. and learned gentleman was then convinced of it. The House could not escape from the necessity of the reconsideration and the re-adjustment of their currency measures; necessity and the distress of the, country would force it upon them: and he should not now, therefore, desire to give his sentiments at large on the question, or to force at that time an unwelcome subject upon a reluctant audience. But let the House consider for a moment one single branch of this important subject. The hon. and learned gentleman had admitted, as he (Mr. A.) understood him, that one of the effects produced by the alterations which parliament had effected in the value of money, has been a surreptitious addition to the amount of taxation by which the country is burthened. Was it possible that the House of Commons could admit of a state of things like that, remaining without investigation and redress; without examining into the extent, the necessity, and the justice, of this additional levy of taxes upon the people, and into the appropriation of those taxes? This surreptitious taxation has gone to the extent, whatever that extent was, to which the depreciation of paper money had been carried. And whilst that depreciation; admitted by all, was estimated by some at five per cent and by others at fifty per cent or one hundred per cent, no member of that House would assert that it was fit for the House of Commons to rest satisfied without taking measures, first for determining the amount accurately, and next for proceeding to redress the evil; or that it was possible for the House, acting with any regard to its cha- racter, or in discharge of its duty, to see permanently imposed, a fraudulent taxation on the country, to an indefinite and uncertain amount; effected by alterations in the value of the monied standard, secretly carried into execution

But whilst he refrained from entering into the general question of the currency, he could not but desire to express the satisfaction with which he witnessed the presentation of this petition; in which the inhabitants of one of the most important towns in the kingdom gave their opinion as to the source of all the distress and difficulty under which they and the empire at large labour. The town of Birmingham assembled in a public meeting, which combined a large proportion of the intelligence, the respectability, and the wealth, of the place; informed the House, unanimously, that in their belief, the whole of the distress which the country had suffered for the last fifteen years, and now suffers, had its origin, not in any over-ruling necessity; not in any evil essentially connected with their commercial system; but altogether in erroneous and false legislation; in mistaken measures adopted by the House itself; and making that statement, and coming from so important a body, he doubted if many documents had ever been presented to the House of Commons which more powerfully demanded its attention. An individual who should form his opinion of the source of the difficulties of the country upon what he might hear on the subject from time to time in that House, would indeed, differ widely from the petitioners. They tell the House of errors of legislation; within the House of nothing is heard of, but of the errors of traders. Here they heard at one time of over-trading, not such as the hon. and learned gentleman spoke of, but of over-trading, ruinous to the whole body of traders, and bringing the country itself to the brink of destruction; then of under-trading, that was spoken of as the prevailing evil at other times; at one time of over-speculation, then of under-speculation; the very same traders speculating too much at one period and too little at another: they ruin the country by over-speculation at one time, and another time our best hope of security for the country lies in exciting them to further speculations. They can neither speculate, nor cease to speculate, to the satisfaction of the House of Commons. At one time the country is ruined by a redundancy of capital; afterwards by a redundancy of labourers; and, at length, they arrived at a period when both those evils assailled them at once. Too much production would prevail, or too little. And with all these miserable absurdities and inconsistencies, the House deceived themselves and the country; till at length it might be believed; that there existed somewhat in the very nature of trade—of manufactures, industry and commerce, or at least in the character of English traders—incompatible with any permanent prosperity and improvement; or with any thing but misery, destruction, and ruin. The inhabitants of Birmingham gave them a different account. They stated that the industry, the enterprise, the prudence, and the character of the trading community on whose industry the greatness of the country was founded, were unchanged—were calculated now, as much as at former times, to advance the general career of improvement and prosperity, and to make that advancement secure;—but that our own laws, which have secretly and from time to time tampered with the currency, and juggled with it, changing the value of money, and introducing confusion and fraud into debts and contracts; have for the whole space of the last fifteen years defeated all the calculations of prudence, and rendered all industry and enterprise ruinous.

In another plate a noble person, to whom he referred with that respect which was due to him from every man, said, that his majesty's ministers were ready to receive Suggestions respecting the causes of the distress which existed, and the means of removing it: and that such suggestions would have the earnest consideration of the ministers during the approaching recess. Now he submitted that there were in the petition before the House, suggestions coming from a very important quarter, which offered explanations of the causes of all the national difficulties, and which pointed out methods of plain and practical relief. He recommended these suggestions to the attentive consideration of government, and trusted it would be given to them

said, that if the hon. gentleman who had just sat down could propose any plan calculated to remove the calamities of the country of which he complained, he should have chosen a proper pe- riod of the session to unfold it; but instead of doing so, he had got up at that late period of the session, and complained, in aggravated terms, of the evils under which we were suffering, without suggesting any remedy. It was impossible to restore the currency of this country to a sound and healthy state, without producing a great deal of suffering in the country. The currency, after the year 1797, having become greatly depreciated, ministers had no other alternative open to them, but either to leave things as they were, or to do that which would be attended with distress and suffering for years, to some classes in the country. Two measures offered themselves to their consideration in 1819—either to leave matters as they were, with a depreciated standard, or to raise the standard by returning to a metallic currency. An equitable adjustment was also proposed then; and it was proposed, that the public creditor, with whom a debt had been contracted in a depreciated paper currency, should, upon our returning to a metallic currency, be paid only in proportion to the value of the paper currency in which the debt had been contracted. The first and great objection to this was, that it would be impossible to discover the original creditor; and, in the next place, it would be obviously unjust to adopt such a measure in regard to those individuals into whose hands those funds had subsequently passed, and who might have purchased them in a currency but little depreciated below the existing standard. He hoped never to live to see the time when a restriction upon the Bank would be again found necessary. It would be easy for government, by an issue of paper, to increase the circulation of the country; but what would be the consequences?—that the exchanges would rise, and that gold would be carried out of the country. Let them but once give the power to the Bank to issue paper not payable in gold, and all the consequences which Mr. Hume, in one of his essays on the increase of the currency had pointed out, would immediately follow. Such a measure would for the moment promote the prosperity of the country; and it was undoubtedly in the power of the government by such means for a time to establish a factitious prosperity in the country. Such an increase in the currency would, for the time, give a stimulus to trade and commerce; but if he were sure of that, he was still more certain, that such prosperity would not last long, and that the period of unnatural excitement would be followed by a period of languor, and that greater distress and suffering would arise than they had ever before witnessed. It was not necessary to look to the state of the exchanges during the last two months, to see what would be the effect of the issue of a paper currency. The government would, by such means, encourage the departure of gold from this country. It would leave the country; while the Bank would be liable still to pay in gold on demand; and he was convinced, that they never could return to the issue of a paper currency, without relieving the Bank from the obligation of paying in gold. Such an increase in the currency would only in the end increase the sufferings of the country. The government was determined to adhere to the present system; and, for the reasons which he had stated, he never would consent to a revision or alteration of the existing currency of the country. The exports of the country, its imports, and the quantity of exciseable articles, had, during this period, increased. As the consumption of exciseable articles had increased, the receipts of the revenue had progressively increased also. How did the hon. member reconcile these facts to his statement of the total depression of trade and deficient demand? There was a fact which ought not to be lost sight of in looking at this alleged depression, which was the probability that the prosperity of one rising district, such as Manchester, affected perceptibly, and injuriously the established manufactures of other districts, having, might be called, a monopoly hitherto in that branch of manufacture, such as Macclesfield and Spitalfields. Instead, of factories having decreased in number, or the spirit of speculation in this respect being on the decline, the number had sensibly increased every year since 1820, more particularly at Manchester; and, singular enough, those factories were either silk factories altogether, or factories of goods compounded of silk and cotton, or other material. In 1820 they were fifty-four in number, and they were assessed to the poor-rates of the town at the annual value of 16,816l. 1823 there were fifty-six, and they were assessed at a yearly annual value of 18,293l. In 1826, the year in which the Small-Notes bill passed, they increased to seventy-two, and were assessed at 24,000l.; and in 1828, the year prior to the Small Notes bill coming into operation, they were in number seventy-three, and were assessed at 25,245l. annual value. It was true, that during a part a this period, some of them were untenanted; but of those tenanted in 1820, there were fifty-two factories, whilst 1828 there were sixty. How, then, if trade was not progressively increasing, did it happen that the desire to embark ire this branch of manufacture had increased from 1820 up to last year? The same disposition to speculate in this branch of manufacture had been displayed in Charleton-row and Salford, suburbs of Manchester,—the former in 1820 having but five manufactories, in 1828 twelve; Salford having also in 1820 seven factories, in 1828 twelve. It would be absurd to say that this was an evidence of distress in this trade, or a want of incentive to speculate. Yet the hon. member fancied there was, notwithstanding, a cessation of demand for these articles of manufacture. To place the reverse of this argument in the strongest light, it was only necessary to inspect the returns, as to the number of looms at work in 1823, which was but two thousand three hundred; whilst, in 1828 the number was increased to eight thousand. The information he had on the subject of the silk-trade there was, that the trade was brisk, and that no good silk weaver was at present in want of employment. Now, were he to hazard an opinion as to the present depression of trade, he should be disposed to attribute it to a variety of causes. Nor was it a singular epoch in the history of our manufactures. Antecedently to 1797, and ere any tampering had taken place with the currency, depression and languor had manifested itself for a time, which was followed by a season of activity. Much was to be attributed last year to the over-productiveness of our manufactures—to the bad harvest not a little,—to the effect of the American tariff, a measure which, it would seem, had lost its efficacy, in consequence of the activity in smuggling British goods into the United States. Yet though these causes combined to depress trade, prices had recovered, and there was an improvement in the market; nor did he doubt, that the vessel would right itself, were it afforded an opportunity. It would, in his mind, be wise not to interfere by the appointment of a committee. He had forgotten to mention, that the factory system had superseded so much the exercise of manual labour, that extreme distress was suddenly brought on particular classes of tradesmen, whilst the trade itself flourished; and in some instances the machinery was so extremely expensive, that the manufacturers, rather than put it out of play, consented to go on incurring a diminution of profits to the extent of ten per cent, or even more. The excellence of our machinery and its substitution for manual labour each day threw many out of employment. This was felt more particularly by the poor Irish at Manchester; who crowded thither whenever they were encouraged to expect occupation, being enabled to come over at the trifling charge at 1s. 6d. a head, to a country which not only gave them work, but allowed them a provision from the poor-rates when ill. Their situation had given considerable concern to the magistrates in that district; and they had very properly, in some cases, admitted their claim to relief from parochial funds. He begged the House, especially as appearances were improving, not to unsettle the public mind on a subject of such vital importance. As a minister of the Crown, and speaking with the deliberation which a person in his situation ought to speak, he would say, that no measure could be introduced which would more directly tend to wound our commercial and manufacturing interests, than to derange the system of the currency of the country.

contended, that it was inherent in the nature of trade that there should be times when it was carried on with profit, and other periods when it was impossible to carry it on except with a loss. So far from its being true that the unfavourable fluctuation in this instance was owing to any secret machination or maladministration on the part of government, that he confessed he should feel very much surprised if the depression in trade should be at an end ere the parliament resumed its labours. These singular fluctuations were often difficult to trace to any assignable cause. The stagnation had been pretty generally felt throughout Europe. Yet no one had had the hardihood to get up and propose a specific remedy. It was the duty of the sovereign state to provide that the money currency should be characterized by its steadiness. If that principle were once disturbed or deranged, the greatest injustice would be done to individuals; an instance of which, in the case of the government of the Cape of Good Hope, he had occasion recently to mention. The public were deceived if they thought there were not sufficient accommodations in trade. Money was to be had, and in abundance if credit was good. The circulation of small-notes was not essential. In towns equally remarkable for extensive business as others which departed from this practice small-notes were not circulated, Manchester was an instance of this.—He regretted to say, that he contemplated the possibility that, in the long-run, this country could not be expected to maintain its ascendancy as a great manufacturing country, while the price of food for its artisans and people were so disproportionate to the price of food in rival manufacturing countries. There the price of corn was 30s.—with us it was never under 605s Trade, too, was migratory, and often shifted from long-favoured spots to suit its convenience, as a staple of this country had shifted from Devonshire to Yorkshire, and the silk-trade from Spital-fields to Manchester. There was a danger that its next migration might be to Germany, or some other rival nation. It was true we had still the start of the foreigner in excellence of machinery, and in expertness; but the foreign manufacturers steadily followed us up, availing himself of our improvements. What we were looking for to guide our opinion was the question of what was the real cause of the alteration in the value of money. That question was not determinable by the difference between paper and metal; for some of the wealthiest countries in Europe had rejected specie as the circulating medium. England had at one time scarcely an ounce of gold; Austria the same; Denmark the same. Nearly half of Europe had got rid of specie and had adopted paper. That circumstance of itself produced a depreciation of specie and bullion, because the exclusion of so much metal from circulation had the same effect as if those countries had found a new mine. The depreciation of money arising from the working of the Mexican mines was increased by the banking system of Europe, and by the false banking system by which it had been followed; whereby an unlimited issue of paper took place. He had happened to be one of a number of gentlemen who had been applied to by a certain Court to know what was best to be done, in consequence of the depreciation of its paper; which was in proportion to bullion as three and three quarters to one. He had said in reply, that there would be as much or more injustice in going from three and three quarters to one, as there had been in going from one to three and three quarters. Many false theories had been stated upon this subject. Some gentlemen talked of an equitable adjustment; and others seemed to think that if the Bank paid in specie all would go right. Others thought that corn would be a correct measure of the depreciation of money: but he had no hesitation in saying, that if one or two years were taken it would be the very worst criterion, though it might perhaps be the best we could get if the average of a number of years were taken. The real difference in the vale of money in England was nearly the difference of the price of corn. Taking it at its present price, about 55s. or 60s. the difference between that price and 85s. or 90s. was about the difference between the value of money at the two periods. But the only true mode Of ascertaining the real depreciation of money, was by taking the prices of all commodities together, because their differences would be corrected There was another circumstance, in addition to what had been stated with regard to the operation of the American tariff, which produced a great apparent increase of trade, owing to persons anticipating this tariff and importing goods, whence the American imports, which were 6,000,000l. the preceding year, rose to 8,200,000l. It would be a great advantage to this country, if by any means short of interference we could bring about some arrangement between the new South American states and the mother country; which would enable them to economize their resources, and become new customers for our manufactures. Besides the market which might be opened to us in the east, there was another of our own colonies, the disgraced Australia, which not only afforded an outlet to a population pressing on us, but raised up consumers for our manufactures. In the absence of any practical and certain measure of relief the best thing was not to meddle with the question.

began by making some allusion to the determination of the House to prolong the present discussion, in order to prevent him from bringing his Resolutions forward, which was not distinctly heard in the Gallery, and by expressing his wish then to go into them. He said he differed from some of the opinions which he had that night heard. One hon. member had laid great stress on the different price of corn in this country, and on the consequent higher rate of wages as producing distress, by rendering, us unable to compete with other nations in the markets of the world. There was, he thought, a great fallacy in this argument. A great portion of our labour was done by machinery, which was fixed capital; and by labour, which was circulating capital; while a much larger portion of the labour of other countries was performed by mere manual labour. If the productions of this country were carried on wholly by manual labour, the argument would be correct; but as a great part of them was the effect of machinery, the argument did not hold good. Our power to compete with other nations would depend on the quantity and excellence of our machinery, as well as on the price of labour; and we should outstrip other countries, in proportion as our fixed capital was greater than theirs. This was the key what some people regarded as paradox; namely, that dear wages were not a source of disadvantage to this country. He had heard some members attribute the distress at Spitalfields to the increased production at Manchester; and if trade went from one place to another why did not the artisan follow it, but from this same cause, that the manufactory was carried on by machinery in both places. From observing this state of things, he had come to the conclusion, that the labourers now out of employ were not likely to find employment, because they had been superseded by machinery; and he looked upon the hopes of finding employment for them as unfounded, unless it could be shew how they could be profitably employed. His hon. friend who had just addressed the House had said something of pseudo-philosophers; and, perhaps, meant (continued Mr. W. Horton) to apply his remarks to what I intend to propose; but if the House will allow me I will now venture, considering the subject of great importance, to move my resolutions, to the effect that great dis- tress exists, and that we will take that distress into our consideration, with a view to find remedies for it at the earliest possible period. I would not venture to state my own opinion, but it is supported by the best authority, both in this country and in other parts of Europe. If the House will hear me, that is all I at present wish. I mean to place my resolutions on the Journals, where I hope they will be allowed to be placed. They will not pledge parliament to any thing, but merely invite its attention, and the attention of the country, to a most important subject. My first resolution is to this effect—that there is a large portion of our able-bodied population out of employment, and a larger proportion who are receiving inadequate wages. He begged the House to recollect the manner in which the agricultural districts, and particularly Ireland, and some parts of England, were oppressed by an excessive population. It was impossible, in a country like ours, that there should not be occasional gluts in the market, and an occasional increased demand for labour, which did not immediately adjust themselves. But for the manner in which the agricultural districts were oppressed by population, the surplus hands in manufactures might occasionally find employment in the agricultural districts; but that was not now possible; and every time there was a glut in the market for manufactures there was great distress in the manufacturing districts. His second resolution would only state the fact, that at present a heavy expense and burthen were imposed on the country for the support of the poor, either by direct or indirect means. In speaking of indirect means, he alluded particularly to Ireland; in which the state of the population, frequently out of employment, and operating to prevent the introduction of capital and manufactures into that country, imposed a great indirect tax on the country for the support of those who could not possibly find employment. But the main principle on which I rely, and which is my third resolution, is, that both labour and population are redundant—that the supply is greater than the demand for labour, and that no improvement can take place in the condition of the labourer until the proportion between the supply and the demand is corrected. If this main principle were true, all the other remedies would not reach the bottom of the case; the artizan would not find sufficient employment, and would not be sufficiently well paid for his services.—He knew, he said, the objection which the House had to listen to the opinions of speculative men, and therefore he would not quote any of the philosophers in support of his view; but would take the opinion of a plain, practical man, who was sent from Glasgow as the representative of eleven thousand weavers, and who had given his evidence before the Emigration Committee. Mr. Northouse had given an extemporaneous answer to a question put to him, which was the strongest confirmation of the doctrine which he wished to press on the attention of the House. The right hon. member then read an extract from Mr. Northouse's evidence before the committee, to show that a greater relief would be given by removing a portion of the labouring population, than corresponded to the number removed. The reason Mr. Northouse gave for this was, that when there was an excess of labourers only to a very small amount, the few who were out of employment offered their services for a smaller sum, and reduced the wages of the whole. On the other hand, when there was a want of labourers, the masters, anxious to get workmen, bid against each other, and wages were raised beyond what might be supposed. He considered these principles as particularly applicable to the manufacturing classes, and he would then show, from an authentic document, what was the state of our agricultural population. A paper had been laid before the House, describing the state of the population in three agricultural parishes of Sussex. The paper had been drawn up in answer to a series of questions submitted to those parishes by an hon. baronet. Those parishes had been asked, what proportion the labourers in them bore to the quantity of employment. They were asked, what number of labourers were required for the farm work, what number for mending roads, &c. The returns shewed that these parishes were subject to an enormous expense to support the unemployed poor. In Shipley the answer was, that the farm work required one hundred and sixty labourers, making and keeping the roads in repairs, six, and there were fifty to spare, or two hundred and twenty in the whole. In West Grinstead there were forty disposable labourers. In the third parish, fifty per- sons were required to perform the work, and twenty-four labourers could be spared. Under such circumstances, it was to be supposed, that the agricultural population was excessive throughout the country. It was known to be throughout the Weald of Sussex; and he should wish a series of similar questions to be addressed to every parish, and that the proportion of the population to the employment might be ascertained through every agricultural parish in the kingdom, as well as the expense it was liable to for the poor. It was most desirable to know what was the proportion of redundant population to employment in every part of the country. If it were true, that the agricultural population were excessive, it was plain that our manufacturers, whenever they were out of employment, could find no resource in our agricultural districts. What, then, must be the consequence? To him this seemed one of the most important questions members could ask themselves. That excessive population was a great tax on the wealth of the country; it deteriorated the wages of labour, and as long as the population was redundant, that deterioration would continue greatly to the disadvantage of the country. He could never suppose that any man could contemplate with satisfaction the spectacle of a large mass of the population reduced to the most deplorable state of poverty. Such a population made every institution insecure, and endangered property itself. It was most desirable to know the causes and remedies for this state of things; and under a government like ours, which was celebrated as the best in the world, it was necessary to know their real cause, and if possible, provide a remedy. He was not anxious to discuss all the bearings of the proposition he had laid down; but to him its truth appeared indisputable, and he wished to see its fallacy, if it were not true, exposed. The hon. member for Newark says population could not be excessive; and he, probably, being able to find employment for them, would point out the means of doing so to the House. Some gentlemen had spoken of partial remedies. Some had ascribed our distress to the currency, and proposed to alter it. In his opinion, it would be most unwise now to alter the currency; but if it were altered, he was at a loss to know what influence that would have on the wages of our redundant population? What effect, for example, would any change of the currency have on the population of such a place as Shipley? All changes in value equally affected all classes; and how they could affect only one class was to him an enigma.—Another party said that a change in the Corn-laws would remedy the evil, but they must be mere theories; for it was quite certain that the parliament would not allow that law to be altered which was so lately passed. But if the Corn-laws were altered, the alteration would remedy the evils to which he had called the attention of the House? It was, however, a waste of time to argue on a supposition that could not be realized. No change would take place in the Corn-laws; no alteration would be made in the currency; and if either were made, it would not have any influence on the present distress. If, then, it was true, that there was a redundant population in England and Ireland, what remedy could be found for the state of our population? His next resolution he had drawn up in the following terms:—"That the improvement in the condition of the labouring classes could only take place either by the increase of the funds for the employment of labour, by the diminution of the supply of labour, or by the compound operation of both causes." In support of the position, he read an extract of a letter from Mr. Tooke, which was also confirmed by the opinion of Mr. Malthus. It seemed to him that the proposition was in itself so plain as not to require either argument or authority. Among the latter, he might add the name of Mr. M'Culloch; Mr. Ricardo and colonel Torrens had both written and spoken to the same effect; and if it were necessary to multiply names, it would not be difficult to do so. Leaving authority, however, he would appeal to fact and experience, and would direct attention to what had occurred in the village of Shipley. From that immediate vicinity, two hundred and fifty persons had been removed to Canada; and, of course, the rest of the population had been greatly relieved from the pressure of a heavy burthen. It had been said that the project he wished to promote would inevitably fail; because the vacuum thus created would be so speedily filled up, that the benefit would scarcely be felt. At all events, that vacuum had not yet been supplied. When people talked upon this subject, they seemed to fancy that there would be an almost immediate importation of labourers into the place thus relieved; as if they would be brought at once in a body from Russia, or some nearer country, where there was a superabundant population. Those who supposed that the place of the paupers removed would be speedily occupied again, and thus defeat the object in view, argued upon mistaken premises. In his opinion, founded upon reason and experience, it would take many years to supply the vacuum, especially in agricultural districts. How was it possible to be otherwise? The population left behind was fully equal to the performance of all the labour that was to be done; those who were removed to foreign settlements had been unable to procure work before their departure; and many of those who remained could only procure enough for the bare support of their families. Hence it was obvious, that there was no superabundance of work to invite an accession of labourers, and, probably, at least twenty years would be required for the purpose, according to the progressive increase of population. The hon. member for Newark, grounding himself upon the supposed contents of the report of the Emigration Committee, had charged him and that committee with cruelty, in promoting the export of individuals from their homes to a distant foreign settlement, where they were exposed to all kinds of sufferings, and to the unchecked ravages of disease. He challenged the hon. member for Newark to produce his authority for such a statement. It was founded upon misapprehension and misinformation; and, in addition to his other errors, the hon. member had selected the most unfavourable year,1825, instead of 1826; from which only it was fair to judge of the prospects and advantages of colonization. The hon. member had asserted, that the mortality among the emigrants to Canada in that year had been dreadful; that it was greater than in the fever hospitals of Dublin, or during the ravages of the plague at Constantinople; and that not less than one in every fourteen had fallen victims to this new scheme of compulsory emigration. Upon this foundation, the charge of cruelty against him (Mr. W. Horton) and the Committee on Emigration rested. But a reference to the real facts of the case, and to the result of the experience of two years, showed that it was destitute of foundation. Of course, neither he nor those who had assisted him in his inquiries up stairs, had had any other object in view than the promotion of the national advantage; but they were fax from being desirous of accomplishing this beneficial object at the expense of the happiness, and even the lives, of the unfortunate. It was natural to expect, under all the circumstances, that a greater number of the emigrants would die than if they had remained in this country; but, according to no fair calculation could the mortality be made to exceed one in every twenty-one; and in some unhealthy parts, even of the united kingdom, it was not a vast deal less. Carlisle was considered one of the healthiest towns in England. The mortality there was one in forty. In considering this point, also, it was not to be forgotten, that most of the emigrants had been reduced to the lowest state of wretchedness before they left the country; so that they were not only more subject to disease, but less capable of resisting its attacks. On the whole, he was satisfied that the most important interests of the country would be promoted by encouraging colonization upon the plan he had recommended.

said, he felt himself called upon to say a few words after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman. He had, as it were, been put upon his defence. He had been accused of having taken a limited and partial view of the question, because he had confined himself to the emigration of the year 1825. The reason why he had referred almost exclusively to the emigration of that year was, because the right hon. gentleman, and others, had repeatedly directed the attention of parliament to it. The right hon. gentleman declared, that he had over-stated the ratio of mortality amongst the emigrating party when he fixed it at one in fourteen, it being (it was now asserted) only one in twenty-one. He could only say, that his statement was founded on the report. But, taking the fact upon the showing of the right hon. gentleman, the degree of mortality was quite appalling. It was threefold the amount of that which occurred in this country; for here the deaths were only as one in sixty. It should be recollected, too, the report stated, that there were sixty-one births amongst the party, which altogether consisted of eight hundred and forty-five persons. This was a degree of fecundity unknown in this country; but see how this circumstance proved the disastrous results which attended the emigrating party. The births in the United States were as compared with the deaths three to one. In this country they were only two to one. Amongst this party, however, the deaths, as compared with the births, were more than two to one; the former being one hundred and thirty-one, and the latter sixty-one. This was a degree of mortality exceeding that experienced in the fever hospitals of Dublin, during a recent national calamity:—Now, with respect to the alleged redundancy of human beings in this country, he hoped it would not be considered invidious in him to remark, that that had always been the complaint of a certain class of reasoners from the earliest periods of our history; and the complaint had always been the loudest when human beings were most thinly scattered. This complaint was universal in uncivilized countries. The savage, roaming on his square mile, cried out, that if the population were not thinned he must be starved to death. Where men were most thinly scattered, then was their condition most wretched and degraded. Where they were most prosperous and happy. He would touch very briefly upon some historical points, to show how prevalent the complaint of a redundant population had been from the earliest periods down to the present day. In the time of Henry 8th the idea prevailed that there was a redundancy of human beings in the country, and this idea was countenanced by some who ought to have known better. Sir Thomas More, for instance, said, that "human beings were so redundant, that the only relief that could be hoped for was, that people would devour each other." At that time when such evils were apprehended from redundancy, the population was not a third or a fourth of its present amount. King Henry, however, hit upon a more effectual way of thinning the population, than that hinted at by More; for in his reign seventy thousand persons were put out of existence by the hand of the executioner. In Elizabeth's time also the idea of a redundant population prevailed; but it was refuted by that honest chronicler Holinshed, who said in his peculiar style, that he could compare the individuals who broached it only to the pope or the devil. In the time of James 1st, measures were taken in the House of Commons to repress the popula- tion of the country. Those measures were resisted by the great Bacon, who said, that no such proposal could be entertained whilst there existed the manifest badges and marks of paucity, and not redundancy of population amongst us. He said in his own magnificent language "While we have waste lands in the country, and whilst we are surrounded by waste seas, the population never can be redundant." A high authority in Cromwell's time adopted the notion of a redundant population; but he did not propose to remedy the proposed evil by shipping off only the poorer classes to distant parts. He first suggested, that the population should be kept under by the abstinence of individuals and in the second place, called on the magistrates to send out of the country the surcharge population of all classes. Now, he would venture to assert, that at the present moment there was less occasion than at any former period to resort to emigration. The report of the wages of agricultural labourers stated that there was a redundancy of that class of the community. He regretted that the committee should have given expression to such an opinion; because its natural tendency was to check any attempt to ameliorate the condition of that class. He admitted that the agricultural labourers were at present suffering under the deepest distress. He knew that they rarely tasted the viands which their ill-requited labour produced for the rest of the community. Their distress, however, was not to be attributed to redundancy of population. How stood the fact? Labour was exceedingly scarce in summer, and exceedingly superabundant in. winter. It was a well-known fact, that the harvest could not be got in, in particular districts, by the resident labourers without an importation of Irish. How, then, could any man presume to say that there was a redundancy of agricultural labourers? To refer to the numbers out of employment during the winter was to little purpose; for that was the season when agricultural labour was always superfluous. He objected to the deportation which the right hon. gentleman recommended; not only because of the amount of expense and suffering which attended it, but also with reference to the class of people deported. The persons selected were not the halt and the blind, but the select portion of the community. One of the witnesses examined by the committee was asked, what had been the effect of emigration in a particular district? He replied, that he "perceived no effect, except that it had deprived them of a certain portion of their most industrious labourers and cleverest mechanics."—He would not then enter at greater length into the question. He entertained his opinions with the same sincerity, and in the same spirit of philanthropy and benevolence, as the right hon. gentleman. We had within ourselves the elements of prosperity. He would call attention to the fact, that while mankind were held in slavery and thraldom, no one was so foolish as to say, that slaves were not valuable to those who possessed them. In those times human beings were never deemed superfluous. It used formerly to be said, that "the day which made a man a slave took away half of his value;" but the modern theory was, "the day that made a man a free man deprived him of half his value." Within our population, now so much complained if, we possessed mines of wealth, compared with which the gems of India and the metals of America were utterly worthless. The hon. member concluded with saying he would oppose the right hon. gentleman's plans, being convinced that the best colonies we could plant, with respect to the interests of the agriculture and manufactures of England, were those which might be established in the uncultivated deserts of our European empire.

, after pointing out that the hon. gentleman who spoke last was in error as to the motion before the House, which he had evidently mistaken for a proposition in favour of emigration, proceeded to remark, that he would not detain the House at any length. The question before the House really was, whether the petition from Birmingham should be brought up? On that occasion and at that period of the session, and at that hour of the evening, he would not attempt to go into the discussion of that interesting and important subject, to which the petition related. He regretted that a fit occasion for a full and fair discussion of it had been lost by the House by accident. With respect to the remarks of the hon. member for Newark—neither was he going to discuss at length the important subject of emigration; but however that hon. gentleman might denounce what he called the theoretical doctrines of political economy, he would run the risk of incurring his anger by refusing to subscribe to his propositions. The hon. gentleman had maintained, that the way to promote the prosperity of the nation was to prevent colonization. He had poetically described colonization as a calamity; but what had been the result of our experience of it in all parts of the world? When we had carried the English language to the furthest ends of the world—when we had raised a population of twelve millions under the government of the United States—and when in Canada, where there were only sixty thousand inhabitants, when it was acquired at the peace of 1763 by the English Crown, there were now upwards of a million of inhabitants, could it be said that there was nothing to be gained by emigration and colonization? His right hon. friend was perfectly right—whatever might be the mortality of one settlement in a particular year, and under particular circumstances. He trusted that parliament would suffer the people of this country to locate themselves in that fruitful part of our dominions in North America. Nobody could suppose, that men who were placed in a new country, and obliged to adopt new habits, would not have some difficulties to surmount; but, would any body compare them with the miserable peasantry of Ireland, having a scanty supply of bad food, and being liable to all the misery arising from the gradual suffering, which was the only positive check to the increase of population in old countries? It would be doing a substantial benefit to the State to adopt a measure that would change such a system; and when the hon. gentleman spoke of the true wealth of a country consisting in keeping at home those who consumed the productions of it, did he forget that, by persons going abroad and employing their skill and their capital in matters in which they could not be so well employed at home, they created a commerce which, but for them, would never have existed, and which, in the end, afforded employment to the industry and capital of the people at home? The hon. member seemed to think it was impossible to create a population to the full extent of the means of supporting it. He must, therefore, think that China was the country in the best condition in the world; and that Ireland would be in a better con- dition, if its population was ten-fold what it now was. He did not dispute the doctrine of the hon. member, that the wealth of a state consisted in its population, and that, considering no other circumstance, the extent of Ireland and its fertility were sufficient to support a population of ten-fold its present amount; but the hon. gentleman who was the opponent of all theorists, beggared all theorists, when he stated such a proposition, without considering the changes that must take place in every respect in the country, before such a population could be provided for. He would not deny the truth of the abstract proposition, that Ireland might support a population as dense as that in Middlesex; but it could only do so by finding capital, and the means of giving them employment. The hon. member had quoted lord Bacon, who was, undoubtedly, a very high authority; but, in doing so, he ought to have recollected, that that great authority had stated in one place that there was no abstract proposition that was universally true. A recommendation of that great man, made in another of his works, would shew the propriety of that observation. Lord Bacon said somewhere, in speaking of the idleness which existed in England and in Europe, that if a man had nothing else to do, he should plant a tree. Now, nothing could appear more wise or more prudent than that, if a man were idle, he should plant a tree, which, in a country like this, where timber was in great request, would in time become of value. But let the same man migrate to the wilds of America, or Canada, and there the recommendation would be, to cut down a tree; and this was an illustration of the error of attempting to apply theories at all times, and without reference to the real state of the country.—He would not pursue the subject of the population and of emigration further than to say, that the right hon. gentleman, who had paid so much attention to it, and who had furnished them with such important statistic information, was entitled to expect that they would receive the proposition he was about to submit. In that proposition he could not entirely concur; because he could not go the full length of believing, that the country could be entirely relieved from its present distress by emigration. He could not say that it ought not to be one of the measures adopted, in reference to the general system with regard to the improvement of the condition of the paupers of this country; but for the state to undertake to carry the pauper population form this country to other lands, was a step surrounded by difficulties greater than any which his right hon. friend seemed to contemplate. Now, in his opinion, the only wise and prudent system of emigration was that in which those who emigrated carried with them the means and the capital necessary for their employment. It was only the connection of property with population that could render emigration useful to this country, or beneficial to the colonists. Such a principle of emigration was the only one which could strengthen the colonies, benefit the empire from which they had proceeded, and open new markets to the mother country, by multiplying the consumption of her products. A different principle would only multiply the amount of misery.—With respect to the petition itself, he knew he had less claim to the indulgence of the House than any other member, as he had before trespassed on their attention, and had stated his sentiments on the subject. The hon. member for Callington (Mr. Attwood) had referred to the year 1822. On that occasion he (Mr. H.) had had a full opportunity of stating his opinion upon the question of the currency, and had had the good fortune to prevail on the House to come to a determination not to change the standard of the coin, either in weight, in fineness, or in denomination. He had now the singular satisfaction, arising from the discussion this evening, and from other circumstances, to find that all men who had considered the subject deprecated such a change, as inconsistent with good faith and sound policy. All he would now say was, that he had no reason to alter the opinion he had then formed; but he had great reason to be confirmed in that conclusion, and to be more than ever assured of the dangers which environed any country, where the currency depended on the faith and credit of the people. The dangers and difficulties of a paper currency had been under-rated; and all he saw made him more than ever satisfied, that it was the first duty of the legislature—whatever might be the difficulties in which the country was placed—whatever might be the circumstances of temptation to which they might be exposed, and which might press on them—never again to allow the currency to be depreciated or uncertain—to do that which would lead to great evils, of which they could not see the end—which would destroy the land-marks of Property and the confidence and security of the people—which would, perhaps ultimately confound all classes, at one time exciting, and at another depressing industry; and which would, ere long, produce a revolution in the state and frame of society, that would endanger the civil government of the country. It was our good fortune to be now relieved from this system; and the difficulties we at present felt and were struggling with related not only to our property but affected, in some measure, our civil and political existence. When hon. gentlemen talked of the difficulties of the country, he felt, satisfied, from what had happened since 1825, that if after that period we had relaxed from the system then laid down—if we had; given any facilities to speculation—the difficulties we now felt would be greater than they were at present: there would be, in fact, a repetition of the panic of 1825; axial we should suffer another convulsion in the property of the country, which perhaps, it might not be able to endure. He thought; therefore, that we could value too highly the declarations or the government, that they would not depart from the system that had then been adopted. The hon. alderman who had spoken on this discussion, had indulged the House with some sage remarks on the difference between the real and the declared value, and the duties on goods exported from this country in 1814 and in the present year. That difference only shewed the effect of the great cheapness of goods to be that of multiplying their consumption. In 1814, the declared value of the exports was stated be fifty millions, and the official value thirty-six millions; while at the present time the order was inverted, and the declared value was only thirty-six millions and the official value fifty-two millions. That difference showed merely that things were cheaper now than they were then; and that fifty-two millions were now consumed where thirty-six millions had formerly been consumed. If there was one circumstance more than another that shewed the increased wealth of the country, it was the prodigious increase of consumption in all the articles of the manu- facture or of the produce of the soil, of this country. It was impossible to say that a state was ruined, when the consumption of the necessary articles of life increased in such a manner. A increased consumption was the best and only means of relieving the stagnation of trade. Low prices were the forerunners of increased consumption; and it was our good fortune that low prices existed, since it increased the amount of the consumption, not only in the home, but in the foreign markets. This was the best test that could be obtained of the state of any country; for if the hon. alderman could have proved that with a diminished exportation, according to the official value, there had been a diminished consumption, he should have been ready to acknowledge that there was some ground for alarm; for if with cheapness there was not an increased consumption, it would be a proof of poverty in the people. But, in making his statement; did the hon. alderman make no allowance for the difference between the circumstances of 1814 and the present time? In 1814, the Exchange was thirty per cent against us; now it was in our favour; and such a difference must produce Considerable effect. An improvement in the cheapness of the price at which we purchased the raw material, and in the machinery with which it was worked up into a marketable fabric, would necessarily lead diminution in the price of the article. It was true, that if the manufacturers could have bought the raw materials at that moment as they could buy them now; and if, in addition to this, they could now sell them as they had sold them then—they would be in a state of prosperity. Whether the consumers would or would not be in the same situation, he need hardly say. But, let him ask the hon. gentleman what this country would have been with respect to the world at large, if the prices of our manufactures had continued at the same amount as in the time of war? We were now the greatest manufactures and exporters in the world. Would that have been our situation, if we had not been able to compete with our foreign rivals in the markets of the world? It was to the change of price that we owed that advantages of our present situation, in being able to sell our woolens and cottons abroad—the price of which was regulated by their price at home. Let the legisla- true adopt as many fallacies as they pleased, they could not raise the price of articles at home; nor could they raise the price abroad, if the foreign manufacturers were able to undersell those of this country. This was one of the causes of the depression of the Silk-trade; in which the amount of the price prevented the existence of a home-market, and did not permit us to become exporters. One of the objects of the legislature ought to be to remove all the duties from the raw material, and all the obstacles that former legislatures had thrown in the away of the commerce of the country. They should endeavour to give to commerce and to industry every possible facility, and at the same time to circumscribe the facilities for tampering with the credit of the country. If the system now existing with regard to the currency was persevered in, this country, notwithstanding the difficulties under which she laboured, would be found to be in a more prosperous state, that in any period since the war.—He agreed with the hon. member, that there was no such thing as over-production or over-trading, in the sense in which they were generally used; but, wherever there were improved machinery, great capital, and considerable skill, there would often be, for a short time, a supply that would exceed the demand; but that difficulty must find its remedy in an increased demand and consumption. There were persons who supposed that cotton was at its minimum price eighteen months ago, and who, in consequence of speculating in it, were now nearly ruined; but that circumstance did not shew the state of the country at large to be one of distress; and he was persuaded that all that parliament had to do was, to avoid the quackery of pretending to afford a remedy which was beyond their power. He was as anxious as any man that this country should carry on all her immense affairs with as small a quantity of metallic currency as was consistent with the safety of the state. He would have as many bills of exchange, and as many book debts as the traders might find requisite; as much value as possible in the dealings between man and man, without the intervention of coin and currency—all that was a wise and salutary substitute; but in this, which was connected with the public credit, we ought to guard against a system which, if pursued, must end in depreciation of that currency which it was intended to improve; and which depreciation would go on increasing until it found its remedy in some of those frightful checks such as had occurred in 1825. He had read in some author a metaphor very much to the purpose On this subject, and with that he should conclude. It was simple, but of its truth there could be no doubt. The author served "that fictitious credit, like a skyrocket, rose in flames, and with a brilliancy that surprised us; but its greatest brightness was followed by immediate darkness the deeper for the contrast with what went before it; and the consequences of a false credit, like the stick of the rocket, might fall, with destructive force, on the head of him who had thrown it up."

contended, that the country was in any thing but a prosperous state. He was not an advocate for an entire paper currency, but he thought that we might have an admixture of that and gold; he meant, that the one-pound notes might have been continued with advantage along with gold; but be would have their issue limited.

said, that in consequence of the course of policy which he had deemed it his duty to pursue in the present session, a series of unfounded calumnies had been leveled at him, which, however, he had despised too much to condescend to notice. But there was one which, as it reflected on his public and official character, he would, with the permission of the House, allude to. The report to which he alluded was, that he had used his influence as Secretary of State to procure and enormous grant of land for a relative of his. In consequence of seeing this report in the public papers, he had requested his right hon. friend to move for the production of certain papers calculated to explain the whole matter. Those papers had in consequence been produced, and were now printed: he trusted, however, that the House would excuse him for again alluding to the subject. He had hoped that the consequence of those papers being printed, would have been, that some member would have asked him some questions on the subject; but though this was not the case, he had received a communication which made him think, that some one out of doors had been imposed upon by the calumny, though no member of that house had been so deceived. He begged, in the first place, to, state most distinctly that he had procured, no grant of land for, any brother of his. A gentleman, whose name was the same as his own, and who was his second cousin, had had a grant made him by his right hon. friend; but in that grant he begged, to state to the House upon his word of honour, as a gentleman, he had, had no participation whatever. Indeed he had se many cousins and second cousins, that it was not very likely that he should use his influence in procuring large large grants in their favour. But with respect to this case, the fact, simply was, that some time since, this gentleman informed him, that it was his intention to go out to New South. Wales as a settler. This was in the month of June, 1828. In consequence of this communication, he wrote a letter to his right hon. friend to the effect, that a relation of his, of the name of Thomas Peel, who was possessed of ample means and good character, proposed going out to the colony a as a settler, and that he should be obliged to his right hon. friend to give his cousin any facilities that he consistently could. He certainly did not think that this letter was any undue, exercise of his influence. All that he had done on understanding, that his cousin purposed to go to New South Wales as a settler was, to ask his right hon. friend to give him any facility that he consistently could. With respect to the settlement on the Swan River, he was ashamed to say, that he had neither heard nor knew of it, until he received a letter from his cousin, announcing to him that he had abandoned the idea of going to New South Wales; and that from the circumstance of Mr. Twiss informing him, that government would be disposed to afford assistance to any settlers going to the Swan River, he and three other gentlemen had been induced to sent in a proposal to that effect. He had subsequently inquired of his right hon. friend on this point, and understood from him, that no arrangement had been made in consequence of that proposal; and from the particulars which his right hon. friend had afforded him, he had stated his conviction that he had done perfectly right in declining the proposal: in fact, the plan proposed was upon so large a scale, that his right hon. friend had not thought it right to enter into any such arrangement, until a full report was received from captain Stirling, respecting the capabilities of the settlement; and in consequence, his cousin had been recommended to go there as and individual settler. Whether the grant to him had been right or wrong, he would not say: all that he had to do was, to assure the House, on the honour of a gentleman, that he had never made any application, either directly or indirectly, to his right hon. friend, further than what he had already stated; and that when the grant was made, it never had even been communicated to him. With respect to the other calumnies which had been promulgated against him, they rather went to private matter, and he had therefore not condescended to notice them; but as this one had reference to the public department in which he officiated, he had thought it so far a public concern, as to ask the attention of the House, while he trespassed on it to disclaim any participation in the grant that had been made [hear, hear].

said, that the House would probably think, after the statement of his right hon. friend, that it would be unnecessary for him to address them. He was satisfied the House knew his right hon. friend to be incapable of proposing anything that would come under the designation of what was vulgarly called a job; and if the House knew his character, as well as they did that of his right hon. friend, they would also feel that, even supposing his right hon. friend could have proposed such a thing, he never would have acceded to it. The house was in possession of some of the particulars of the grant: to those might be added, that the proposal made by Mr. Thomas Peel and his friends went to the taking out of ten thousand persons to the Swan River, in consequence of which the colonial department had felt that this would be risking too much, in the present early state of the settlement. The parties had been advised to arrange their proposal on a less extensive scale. Three of the gentlemen had, in consequence, retired; but Mr. Thomas Peel still adhered to the scheme. This, however, was merely accidental; and it might just as well have happened that Mr. M'Queen, or any of the other gentlemen had remained and Mr. Thomas Peel retired. After this time all the proceedings went on in the Colonial office without his right hon. friend having any acquaintance with them. He did not complain of what had appeared in the public papers; for as they were open to every one, they must necessarily often be made the channel of calumnies and misstatements, as well as of useful information; and as this was well known to be the case, he had not thought it necessary to insert in them any contradiction of the statement alluded to.

said, he believed he should be but speaking the sense of the whole House when he said, that he had heard for the first time in his life the right hon. gentleman make a speech that was wholly unnecessary [hear, hear]. That it would have the effect out of doors of silencing those who had taken up the subject, was more than he could answer for; but this he would venture to pronounce, that if this calumny produced no effect abroad, so it produced no effect in that House, and might, therefore, be treated with the contempt it deserved; though, perhaps, as the matter had some public reference, the right hon. gentleman had pursued the safer course in thus affording it an unequivocal denial [hear, hear].—The hon. and learned gentleman then proceeded to reply to the observations that had been made on the petition which he had presented. Upon the subject of the currency, which had engrossed so much of the attention of the House during the discussion, he would merely say, that at the time when a noble lord, now a member of the other House (Radnor), brought the question of an equitable adjustment under consideration in the years 1819 and 1822, he (Mr. B.) thought it did not receive all the attention which it deserved. The House decided then against the proposal of an adjustment—the time being of all others the best fitted for such an attempt, because the currency had not been raised from its state of depreciation. If, therefore, they were of opinion that an adjustment should not take place then, how much less was it fit that it should take place now, when those great changes had been affected to which hon. members alluded. That adjustment was now placed beyond their power; and all he had to hope was, that no possible state of things would ever induce the legislature again to tamper with the currency.

would merely say, in answer to the last observation of the hon. and learned member, that the government of this country could not support the expense of two campaigns in any war in which they might have the misfortune to be engaged, without being driven to that tampering which the hon. member condemned.

thought, that the observations just made by the hon. member only showed the necessity for this country to preserve herself in peace.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

then said, that after what had passed,, he should not offer any further observations on his resolutions, He then moved, "That a proportion of the able-bodied population of the United Kingdom, who are dependent upon the wages of labour for their support, are now out of employments: and at the same time a larger proportion are receiving a rate of wages which is not adequate to that degree of support which it would be desirable for the public interest that they should receive:

"That an expensive and burthensome contribution is simultaneously made for the support of the Poor girt the United Kingdom in various, direct and indirect modes:

That this House is of opinion that, when the labouring population is relatively redundant, that is, when the supply of labour is more than in proportion to the funds applicable for its profitable employment, no improvement whatever can take place in the condition of any particular class, until the proportions of demand and supply of labour are so far restored in that class as to prevent the necessity of any such labourers exchanging their labour for wages only sufficient to secure to them the minimum of subsistence; and that no general improvement can take place until those proportions are still further restored, so as to furnish able-bodied labourers the means of exchanging their labour for wages sufficient their adequate maintenance:

"That this improvement can only take place, either by the increase of the funds for the employment of labour; or by the diminution of the supply of labour, or by the compound operation of those two causes:

"That it is expedient that such measures should be adopted in the next Session of Parliament as may furnish the most safe and effectual means of producing the desired improvement, by a judicious, application of both those principles, and at the same time under conditions which will prevent the probability of a recurrence of similar evils, and also effect a material saving of the national income, instead of producing an increased charge thereon."

Whereupon the previous question "That the question be now put," was moved, and negatived.

rose and said:—Sir, in moving the resolutions which I have now the honour of submitting to the House, having for their object the freedom of all Children born of Slave Parents after the 1st of January; 1830, I do not pretend to any originality; still less can I be charged with presumption, when the House is reminded, that this very proposition was brought forward about thirty years ago, by one of the most favoured ministers of the Crown, the late lord Melville, and fully countenanced also by the West-India proprietors themselves.

I should do injustice to the subject, and take up the time of the House unnecessrily were I to enter into any, detailed arguments in support of these resolutions, because they only require simply and plainly to be enunciated to be at once acknowledged and recognised by this or any other representative assembly, professing to be guided in its deliberations by the rules, of truth or equity; and because I only call upon this House to uphold its own principles, and to protect those rights which are admitted to exist de jure, although they are daily and notoriously violated de facto in our colonies.

In all the discussions, Sir, which have taken place on this most important question, which involves so deeply; not only our national character, but every feeling of justice and humanity,—and which no less involves, as I trust will presently be made clear, a vital and fundamental principle of our constitution,—the essential distinction and difference appears to have been unaccountably lost sight of, between property in land or chattels in the ordinary acceptation of the term, and property in our fellow creatures, the existence of which is attempted by the advocates of negro slavery to be maintained: I mean, Sir, the distinction and difference between things and human beings; between, things brutish or inanimate, which are in themselves incapable of possessing any rights of their own, and human beings, all of whom, by the very condition of their existence, are born with natural rights, namely, those of life and liberty,—for the protection of which all laws and legislatures are supposed to be instituted, and which no law or legislature can take away,—unless where crime be committed.

Instead, Sir, of enfeebling these self-evident truths by any attempt at illustration of my own, I shall confine myself to authorities on the subject which are open to every one. The first is Blackstone, who, in the introduction to his Commentaries section 2, says, that "those rights which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights,—such as are life and liberty,—need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually vested in every man than they are, neither do they receive any additional, strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolable; on the contrary no human legislature has, power to abridge or destroy them, unless the owner shall himself commit some act that amounts to a forfeiture."

I will now only add to this the opinion of sir Nicholas Tindal, whose character for professional attainments, for sobriety of judgment, and for a disinclination wild and visionary theories, will not, I think, be disputed by any one who hears me. In the, reports of the debate last year, on the Catholic question, that gentleman is represented to have said in the course of his reply to an hon. baronet,—Every subject of the state has a, right to life and liberty; and the government that would invade those rights, would not only violate all law, but would be acting on a principle whose operation must destroy that, government itself. But to deny public office to persons holding opinions injurious to the state, is quite another thing to the deprivation of natural rights."

I fearlessly assert then, Sir, on the high authority of Blackstone, and on that of his majesty's solicitor general, sir Nicholas Tindal, that all British-born subjects, as the negroes are admitted to be, are from their birth entitled to the protection of the sovereign, in return for their allegiance; and that no legislature on earth is competent to deprive them of that protection. I deny that the legislature of this country has ever arrogated to itself, or has ever desired to arrogate to itself, the power of, destroying the natural and civil right of Englishmen. Time, I of course admit, may give a good legal title to property, however originally acquired; but this title is only applicable to that which has no rights of its own; namely, to things which, being inanimate or brutal, are therefore capable of being subjected to the artificial proprietary, interests of civil society; and as the only question with respect to such things is, who shall possess them, time, custom, and possession are the best guides to decide the dispute.

This rule or title has, however, no sort of application to human beings; no British subject, therefore, can be legally compelled to labour for the advantage of another person; still less can innocent British children, of whatever condition or estate, be condemned to a species of civil death within the dominions of the British Crown—on the principle that the colour of the skin to the fourth generation is a crime—by any other law the law of the strongest. I call upon any lawyer in this House to contradict or controvert, if he can, what I now say of; the law on this subject. I call upon him to show me the statute creating the condition of Slavery. I am aware that acts of parliament may be found conniving at this practice; but, connivance is not legislation; something, far more specific and personal than mere general connivance is necessary to destroy the natural and constitutional rights of British subjects; and we, who pretend to sit here for their protection, cannot, by collusion or otherwise,, directly or indirectly, make enactments against the lives or liberties of our fellow citizens, without forfeiting by those enactments our own authority, authority to legislate.

It is a fact, however, that not only does no act of parliament exist, which places the negro colonist out of the pale of the British constitution, but if the opinions deliberately laid down by Burke, Blackstone, Tindal, and other eminent persons living and dead, whom I might mention, are entitled to any weight or consideration in this House, his enslavement is contrary, not only to the spirit and principle, but even to they very letter of the constitution of these realms.

If custom be pleaded, I answer that the custom of outraging all law never can become law. But even this plea cannot be made available in the case now submitted to the House; for a custom relating to any thing can never be older than the thing itself; and the ingredient of time is therefore wanting for the establishing this monstrous assumptions at least as far as regards children as yet unborn.

And now, Sir, with respect to any compensation that may be demanded by the slaveholders in lieu of their pretended proprietary interests in the persons of future generations of their fellow subjects, I venture to assert, and I will undertake to prove, that, whether or no this government may think proper on its own account to grant it, no compensation whatever can by possibility be due, as from the slave to the master.

The claim of the slave to his limbs, labour, and faculties, "is prior in time, paramount in title, superior in equity," to that of any other man. Nor can we without a downright outrage on common sense and common honesty without a cruel mockery of the mental, and bodily degradation to which we ourselves have reduced him (by the greatest of all robberies, because it includes them all), order him to buy back that property "which (says Mr. Burke) nature gave to his birth, and of which no power on earth could ever lawfully deprive him."

I am sorry, Sir, on this occasion, to be under the necessity of appearing to act independently of those influential persons; who on a former night urged me to postpone my motion to another session. But I cannot help thinking, that the best moment for the redress of an acknowledged grievance is the very first moment that we can set aside for such a purpose; provided always we do not interfere with more important business. I have consented, much against my will, to the delay which has already taken place, and I can not, consistently with my duty; allow the wishes, or convenience of individuals, however eminent or meritorious, to weigh against the lives and liberties of millions of our fellow subjects,—who may hereafter be sacrificed in our colonies for the production of sugar by slave labour.

I am aware of every difficulty that may be supposed to exist, as to the future provision for those children, whom I desire to see protected in their rights. But the House will allow me to bring in a bill next session, founded on the resolutions I am about to propose, I will answer for that all these difficulties, real or imaginary, shall be removed; though, it would not be proper for me, when I am only moving resolutions as a basis for that bill, now to occupy the attention of honourable members with the detail.

I am inclined, Sir, to believe that there exists a very strong and general feeling in the public mind, and that many arguments and proofs might be adduced in favour of a more direct and comprehensive measure for the abolition of negro slavery, than the partial, gradual, and ameliorative one comprised in these resolutions. But, Sir, I distinctly and utterly disclaim all interference; on this occasion, with the state or condition in any way of our existing slave-population:—it is to the future progeny only of the unhappy slaves that my motion refers; a motion which, I repeat; was brought forward by the late lords Melville, and which was sanctioned in a great degree, at that time, by the West-India proprietors themselves

Sir, nearly forty years have now been suffered to elapse, since this great constitutional question wag first brought before this House; yet, in consequence of our having lost sight of principles, ands bewildered ourselves in endless details,—by which the slaveholders, whose only hope is in delay, had every thing to gain;—notwithstanding, all the generous and noble efforts that have been made, the abolitionists see with astonishment, that though some ameliorations have taken place; nothing definite has yet in reality been done, to put an end, at however remote a period, to a state of things within our own dependencies, which may be a subject of ridicule or indifference to the frivolous or worldly-minded, but which is deplorable, revolting; and heartbreaking to the patriotic the religious, and the humane.

I entreat of honourable members to recollect, that, I have several times within the last eighteen months given notice of my present proposition; and one of any party who takes an interest in it, can, I think, candidly affirm that he has not had time to be prepared for it. I shall conclude, Sir, by moving, 1. "That no human, legislature has any lawful power to abridge or destroy the natural rights of life and liberty, unless the owner shall himself commit some criminal act that amounts to a forfeiture.—2. That although neither the government nor the legislature of this country have arrogated to them selves the power of destroying the natural rights of innocent British subjects, or of delegating any such power to other autho- rities, it is a notorious fact; that in many British colonies lying remote from the immediate observation of the government, innocent British-born subjects are, from the time of their, birth, robbed of their natural rights, and converted into slaves —3.That it is the especial duty of this House, as the representatives of the people, to take effectual measures for protecting all British subjects that shall; be born henceforward in the West-Indian colonies, from similar, violations of their natural, inherent, and paramount rights as human beings."

The, motion being seconded by Mr. Lumley,

said, he could not give his support to these resolutions, because they were connected with a question of too much importance to be agitated in such a manner, and at such a period of session.

was of opinion, that resolutions of such a description ought to be met by a direct negative.

The previous question being put, "that the question be now put," the House divided. The Noes, 44, went forth. Mr. Otway Cave was appointed one, of the tellers for the Yeas, but no other member remaining in the House to be a second teller for the Yeas, the Noes returned into the House, and the Speaker declared that the Noes had it.