present a petition from certain natives India praying for admission to further civil privileges. The petition, he said, was signed by one hundred, and sixteen Mahometan and one hundred and twenty eight Hindoo inhabitants Calcutta all, of whom sub- scribed their names in the English character and language. The petitioners prayed that they might be admitted to sit upon grand juries, and that they might not be excluded, from all civil offices. He considered this exclusion to be highly detrimental to the administration, not only of civil, but judicial business in Indian.

thought the petition of great importance and that the concessions asked for, would tend, much to promote the prosperity of India.

assured the House, that this, and other questions of importance, had not escaped the attention of the board of Control, or the Director of the East-India Company. Much had been done to increase the power of the natives. From the regulations which, prevailed in the army, it was found impossible to confer on natives of distinction any military rank. The government had in Consequence, invested them with judicial powers to a great extent. The extent of that power was still confined to the decision of questions where, the sum amounted to fifty rupees; but Mr. Elphinstone had in Bombay increased that sum to 8000 rupees. The directors had. on all occasions, shewn the strongest disposition to improve the condition of the people; and the best proof he could offer of the success of that disposition was, that the number of natives who were benefitting by the public schools of Madras amounted to one hundred and eighty-eight, thousand, and in Bombay to one hundred and sixteen thousand The government were fully sensible, that it was only by the diffusion of education among the natives; and by an attention to the improvement of their social and political condition, that they, could hope to advance the interests of the Europeans, to secure the game prosperity of their empire in India.

expressed his surprise to hear so much good sense from the noble lord, or from any member of his majesty's government, particularly after they had been told so repeatedly that the people of India were not fit to receive the, benefits of those institutions which were now about to be, conferred them. It was only by improvement in the condition of the natives, by amalgamating them with the Europeans, subjecting them to the same laws, and encouraging industry and morality that this country could hope to maintain its supremacy in India AS to the morality of the native in all the transac- tions he had had with them, he had found that morality to be as great as among the same classes in England.

bore testimony to the respectability of the petition, which included among its signatures all the natives of wealth, and talent, in Calcutta. The petitioners complained that they were not permitted to sit on grand or petty juries, where the life or liberty of a European was at stake; and they prayed an alteration of the law. Now, it was not a little remarkable, that in the reign of George the 1st all natives were eligible to sit on both Juries, and it was not till 1784 that the exclusion, took place. The natives, therefore, did not in reality pray a new right, but the restitution of one of which they had been deprived.

wished to give the natives of India a participation in all the civil rights enjoyed by Europeans in that country. Soon after his arrival in India he had repeatedly served on petty juries with the natives, and had frequently experienced much greater satisfaction than when those juries were composed entirely of his countrymen. He had frequently regretted that the natives were not as eligible to serve on grand juries. Much must be done before the natives of India were placed on the footing on which, in his opinion they ought to stand. Among other things, he especially reprobated the different treatment experienced by native and by European peculators: the former were advertised in all the newspapers and in the various dialects of India, so, that they became utterly degraded and expelled from society; but no such practice was resorted to with respect to the European peculators.

said, he was glad that a subject had been taken up which involved the rights of eighty or a hundred millions of native inhabitants of India. He concurred in the observations which had proceeded from every part of the House on this subject and rejoiced at the liberal spirit which had breathed throughout the conversation. He believed, there never was any absolute government so well administered as that of India, and he took this as the best confutation of the remark of a celebrated writer, that the dependencies of free states were worse governed than those of absolute monarchies. It was the power of public opinion that formed the best guarantee for the good government of India. The British government of India had two great merits: it afforded security to persons and property, and toleration in matters of religion. These were benefits of the highest class. The defects set against them were, too enormous taxation, and the too general exclusion of natives of India from office. Of all persons concerned in the government of India, Mr. Elphinstone, at Bombay, had done the most to admit natives to civil privileges. The hon. gent. then eulogized the character and conduct of Sir John Malcolm; than whom no man was better calculated to carry into effect the improvement of the natives. He rejoiced at the testimony that had been borne to the character of the natives of India. He believed their private character to be excellent, and if their public integrity had been impaired by the effects of an absolute government, the remedy for the evil lay in a just government and equal laws, and a cautious approach to the grand remedy of political vices a free government.

also bore testimony to the excellent character of the natives of India.

said, he was not quite so satisfied with the character of the natives as some hon. gentlemen; and adverted, in support of his doubts on the subject, to the opinion of sir Edward Starchy.

rose, to bear testimony to the great intelligence and moral worth the natives of India, and to state his conviction of their fitness to, discharge the important duties of grand jurors. He had resided upwards of twenty years in India, and a more honorable race of men than the natives was not to be found in any country.

said, in reply, that although he was most favorable to the object of the petitioners, he did not regret that the privilege in question was not granted until it had been asked for; as it could not be before known whether it would be considered as a boon or a burthen.

Ordered to lie on the table.

observed, that although the commission under this bill had cost 200,000l. and had lasted ten years, the commissioners had not proceeded through half the counties of England and Wales. How, then, could it be supposed that in another year, to which period their labours were limited by the bill, they could go through the charities in the rest of the kingdom? If hon. gentlemen would look at the nineteen reports of the commissioners, they would find that in about eighteen thousand cases which had been investigated, there were between three and four thousand in which it was found that the original intention of the founders of the charities had been departed from. How was a remedy to be applied to these cases? By the court of Chancery? Upwards of fifty of these cases had been before Masters in Chancery for four or five years, and no report had been made upon them. How, then, could four or five thousand cases be disposed of? He did not believe that, when the commissioners were appointed, government knew the fact that in 1786 two volumes of reports on the subject were laid upon the table of the House, the result of an act of parliament calling on the ministers and churchwardens throughout the country to make returns of the various charitable institutions in every parish. From these reports, all the information might be derived which had since cost the country 200,000l.. although only one half of the task imposed upon the commissioners had been accomplished. The House was perhaps not aware, that in consequence of a singular construction, by the late lord chancellor, of the very wholesome law which had been introduced by sir Samuel Romilly, all inquiry by the commissioners had been nearly stifled. By that law the Commissioners were authorized to proceed in the investigation of any charity on the petition of two persons. The late lord chancellor, however, was of opinion, that they must be two persons connected with or interested in the charity. The effect of this was materially to diminish the number of cases to which the attention of the commissioners could be directed. For instance, he knew a small parish in Yorkshire, the clergyman of which had diverted the income of a charitable institution, amounting to 1,000l. a year, from its original purpose; but, being not only a clergyman but a magistrate, and having a monarchical power in his parish, no two persons in the parish could be found to petition on the subject.

wished to take an early opportunity of setting the hon. member, the House, and the public right, as to the misrepresentations which existed respecting this bill. In the first place, although the bill continued the powers of the committee only for one year, no inference could be drawn there from of the time to which it would be necessary to extend those powers. At the present period of the session it was not practicable to make certain alterations in the constitution of the commission, which alterations were, nevertheless, necessary; but as the period of the existence of the commission was about to expire, it was imperative to provide for its continuance for another year, with a view, in the next session, to make the required changes. The hon. member had said, that if the labors of the commissioners were looked at, it would appear that they had done but little; and he seemed to think that the returns made under Mr. Gilbert's Act would have been quite sufficient for the required purpose. He (Mr. Brougham) was not there to defend the whole of the measure by which the commission had been appointed. Although the measure had been originally introduced by himself, it had undergone such extensive alterations in its passage through the House that he could not be expected to be the person to defend the bill. Nevertheless, he must say that the hon. member had greatly misrepresented the bill, and the operations of the commissioners under it. They had completely finished sixteen counties; twelve by their last report a year ago, and four since; and they had gone into, although not finished, ten more; making twenty-six counties in all. As, however, there were fifty-two counties in England and Wales, and as only twenty-six had been looked into by the commissioners, the hon. member had argued, that they had accomplished only half their task. But, what did the six and twenty counties yet to be inquired into comprise? Twelve Welsh counties. The population of Wales amounted only to five or six hundred thousand persons; that of England to about twelve millions. It appeared, also, by the returns under Gilbert's act, that 258,000l. was the income of all the charities in the English counties, and that about 6,000l. was the income of all the charities in the Welsh counties; being in the proportion of about one to forty. It was evidently, therefore, a great fallacy to say that the, commissioners had accomplished only half their task. Of the counties which they had completed, Yorkshire was one; having of itself three times the population of twelve of the twenty-six counties yet untouched. Up to 1828, the commissioners had investigated 16,145 charities; since that period they had investigated 2,000; making in the whole above 18,000. Besides Yorkshire, they had completed Devonshire; and in the whole of their operations no place more burdensome than Exeter had presented itself to them. The inquiry into the charities of London, Westminster, and Southward, had also been completed. The hon. gentleman was not quite correct with respect to the number of cases brought into the court of Chancery by the commissioners. Fifty-three cases had been filed, and eighteen petitions presented, making in all seventy-one. Of these, sixteen had been finally determined. He wished he could say, that as large a proportion of all the other suits in the court of Chancery had been brought to a termination in the same time; but of those suits, not one in four had, during the last ten years, reached its final conclusion. Another class of cases had not been noticed by the hon. member: he meant those which had been certified to the Attorney-general by the commissioners, but which were afterwards settled by the parties. There were eleven or twelve cases, and some of them very important ones, of this description. It was also unfair to take, as a test of the value of the labours of the commissioners, the number of suits which had been instituted in consequence of their investigations. One great benefit resulting from the appointment of the commission was, that in many cases it had of itself abated the evil, and thereby prevented, the necessity of filing informations against the offending parties. It should be remembered, that it was never known where the commissioners would next alight. Very judiciously, they did not take the counties in any regular order; so that those persons whose management of the funds of public charities had been improper did not know when they might be called in question. In many districts of the country, charities which had long been in a dormant state, had, within these few years, been revived; and which, he had no doubt, was entirely owing to the labors of the commissioners. In many parts of the country in which he had himself been travelling, circumstances had come within his knowledge which satisfied him of the correctness of his opinion. He had seen a great number of buildings for schools, almshouses, &c. evidently of recent erection; and by the dates, of their foundation he was satisfied that many of them would never have been erected but for the commission, By the labors of the commissioners a complete register of all the charities in the kingdom would be provided for public inspection. The hon. member has suggested that this has already been done by Mr. Gilbert's act. He would not hesitate to say, in reply to this observation, that although Mr. Gilbert's act was a most useful measure, it did not afford a complete register of the charities in this country. Indeed, the nature of this register was such, that no general return could be made. According to the direction of this act, the ministers and churchwardens of England and Wales were directed to make returns of all charities, with their income, &c. in their several parishes. Now, there were many charities which did not come within the knowledge of these persons; and they were not empowered to call persons before them for the purpose of making inquiries on the subject. One fact would sufficiently show the difference of the labours under the two acts. The annual income of the charities which had already come under the examination of the commissioners very nearly amounted to the sum of 600,000l. a year, while the returns of the revenues of the various charities under; Mr. Gilbert's act did, not amount to more than 213,000l. a year This great difference in amount could not be imputed to the change in the value of property at the different periods; especially when it was remembered that the labors of the commissioners were not nearly at an end. He was satisfied that the incomes of the various charities would not fall short of the calculation which he had made, when he first brought the subject forward. He had then stated, and was now of the same opinion, that the incomes of the various charities in England and Wales would be found fully equal to 1,200,000l. According to some estimates which had been made, founded on the Commissioners reports, the revenues in a few years might be calculated at nearer 2,000,000l. per annum. Objections had been made to the expense attending this inquiry; but the House would remember; that he had suggested a mode by which all expense, on the part of the government, would have been prevented. He had proposed that the expense of the commission should be paid out of the property saved by them, as, if he might use the expression, a sort of salvage duty When he introduced the subject nine years ago, he had proposed that the inquiry should be confined to charities connected with education; and at the same time he had introduced a bill for a general system of education. He had repeatedly been asked why he had abandoned the latter bill? He would shortly state his reasons for so doing. When he brought forward his propositions, he thought that no general system of education could be proposed, with any chance of success, which was independent of the Established Church. He was of the same opinion still; and every thing he had heard and read on the subject tended to convince him of the correctness of it. The measure had been greatly opposed, in consequence of this opinion by several religious sects, and it was principally owing to that opposition that it; had been withdrawn. He entertained very high degree of respect for the Protestant Dissenters who had always shewn themselves the steady friends of civil and religious liberty; and it was principally owing to their opposition that he had given way to what lie could only consider the prejudices of these people. Whether the members of the church would have supported his proposal he was unable to say. The opposition of the Dissenters he could easily account for; at the time he brought forward this measure, they were laboring under disabilities which justified them to a great extent in the jealousy which they felt. Now, however, Since the measure of, last spring such feelings, he trusted no longer existed. Nine parts in ten of the opposition to the measure had been removed. For the purpose of acquiring information respecting the present state of education he had written to the ministers of five hundred parishes in England. In answer to these letters he had received replies from four hundred and eighty-seven clergymen and he had no hesitation in saying, that the major part of those gentle men had expressed their most decided approbation of a general system of education. In the year 1818, the total number of unendowed schools in these parishes was one thousand four hundred, and in 1828 there were not less than three thousand two hundred This was a subject of gratification to all friends of education; it shewed an increase in the number of schools in these parishes in the ratio of seven to sixteen. The number of scholars had not increased in the same proportion; but still it had more than doubled since the former period. Under these circumstances, he had doubted whether it was not better to leave the Subject alone, than to bring forward the question at present. He thought it would, be better for him if nearly the same result could be produced without legislative interference as with it, to abstain from introducing his bill again. Until last year, the objections to the measure, in consequence of the disabilities under which the Dissenters labored, had prevented him from bringing the measure forward again; and his own bad state of health had prevented his doing so at the latter end of last session. He now, indeed, doubted whether it would not be better to leave the subject to the feelings of the people of the various districts; although he was fully aware that there were less than two thousand parishes without schools of any sort, out of the twelve thousand in to which England was divided. At the same time, he must admit, that the population of these two thousand parishes did not amount to more than five hundred and sixty-eight thousand; being about two hundred and seventy persons to a parish. Of the other parishes, the average number of inhabitants was one thousand three hundred. It was, therefore, obvious that in the more populous parishes schools were founded. In many of the two thousand parishes, the population was too thin to support the expense of a school. He was happy in being able to say, that of the five hundred clergymen, to whom he had written on this subject, he had not received six answers which he could at all consider unfavorable to a general diffusion of education. Such had not however been the case in 1818; when a great number of clergymen had declared their opposition to a general system of education.—Another object which he had in view when he proposed his measure, was, that the trustees of charities should be empowered to alter them, in such a way as might suit the exigences of the times. For instance, in the case of funds being left for endowing grammar schools, the trustees were prevented from devoting the surplus to any purpose of general education, because the court of Chancery had held, that it would be a breach of the trust. In some places grammar schools (or schools in which the learned languages alone were taught) were perfectly useless, and did not at all fulfill the intentions of the endowers of them. He had wished that the managers and the trustees for charitable institutions should be empowered, under certain circumstances, to change the objects for which the endowers had left them property. In some instances, the objects for which funds had been left were absolutely pernicious. The bill was read a third time.

said, that the effect of the bill would be, to fix a number of fees which were now hardly legally demandable, and thus to perpetuate a heavy tax upon the suitors of that court. He could not but complain of the haste with which the bill had been forwarded through the House, and he must oppose it unless clauses were introduced into it for redressing those grievances in the courts with which, he conceived, the public had so much reason to be dissatisfied. The hon. member proceeded to explain three clauses for regulating the fees and duties of officers in the ecclesiastical courts, which he had framed for the purpose of incorporating them with the bill. It appeared to him monstrous to continue certain fees, instead of affording relief from them. He considered it not unreasonable that there should be a regular scale of fees framed, and that a law should be passed to prohibit the deputy-registrars from acting as proctors, and thus giving assistance to those officers in exacting exorbitant, fees. As an instance of the abuse of charges he would refer to a case in which a bill of 1,800l. had been reduced by taxation to 600l. Under all the circumstances he professed his readiness to agree to the bill, provided the clauses which he had specified were admitted to form a part of it; otherwise he would move that it be read a third time that day three months.

after stating that the bill had no necessary connection with the one brought in, by him last year, said, he would support the measure on account of three or four clauses embodied in, it, which he considered extremely useful.

The bill was read a third time. After which Mr. Hume moved, by way of rider, "That a table of fees shall be, kept and hung up." Upon which the House divided: Ayes 7; Noes 46. He also moved, by way of rider, 1. That advocates or proctors appointed to the office of deputy registrar shall not act as advocates or proctors: 2. That proctors appointed to the office of deputy registrar shall not act as proctors: which being put, were negatived, and the bill passed.

said, that in rising at that late hour, in the then state of the House, he did not mean to enter into the important question of Canada; but he could not allow the session to pass, after a report had been made on the Canadas which shewed that colony to be in a situation such as no British colony ever before was in, without calling on the right hour gentleman to state what line of policy he meant to adopt with regard to the Canadas, That right hon. gentleman had been twice asked, in the course of the session, what he meant to do; and he had stated, that he hoped, before the end of it, to bring in some measure that would satisfy the colonies, but that he delayed it till he had procured more accurate information. He had the greatest confidence in that right hon. gentleman; and, as he could not conceive that the governors of the colonies were so much to blame for many of the vexatious differences white existed between them and the inhabitants, as the Colonial office at home, so he looked to the Colonial office for the improvements which he hoped would be trade. It was of great importance, considering the situation of the Canadas—considering there numbers and relative importance—that they should be confirmed in their attachment to this country. They were perfectly ready for the freest government which could be given them. It was possible, he thought, for this country to outbid America in purchasing the affections of the Canadians. He looked at all measures with some suspicion; for since 1791, he believed not a single act had passed which had not done harm. What was wanted, was a measure to repeal those acts; but he did not believe good could be effected by any new enactments whatever. What ever might be the measures of the right hon. gentleman, he hoped that amongst them there was no scheme for altering the constitution of the Canadas; and no intension of doing anything which went to impose any measures whatever, ever measures excellent in the in themselves, on the colonial legislature. A right hon. friend had made an attempt of the kind in 1822; and had learnt from that experiment that such an object was not attainable. The hon. member then moved for copies of any communications between the colonial office and the governors of Upper and Lower Canada, in pursuance of the recommendation of the Canada committee.

expressed his entire concurrence in what had fallen from the hon. member, and also his confidence in the government.

said, he would not enter into a defense of the colonial government, but he could not go along with the sweeping condemnation of it generally made. A great source of dissension was in the conflict of acts of parliament. He agreed with the hon. member that it would be beneficial if many of them were repealed. As long as they were unrepealed, it was not proper that they should be disobeyed, or treated as if they did not exist. He fully agreed with the propriety of the advice to treat the colony with liberality, and to engage the affections of the people; but he could not consent to give up the authority of this country.

hoped the able Secretary of State for the colonies, would give the House some insight into the views of government with regard to Canada, before the close of the session.

made his acknowledgments to the hon. mover, for the tone of moderation with which he had introduced this discussion. When the affairs of Canada were brought incidentally before the House not long since, it seemed to be imputed to him as a matter of blame, that he had not entered at length into the subject. Blame had been imputed to him in some degree, as if he had shewn a want of respect to the House on that occasion. In his opinion, there was no mode in which respect could be more perfectly shewn to the House, than by confining oneself at all times to the immediate object under discussion. That was his reason why he did not enter at large into the affairs of Canada, on the presentation of petitions. It seemed also to be imputed to him that he had not shewn sufficient respect to the Canada committee. That charge was, however, equally groundless; for he was perfectly sensible of the zeal and exertions of that committee, and he was quite satisfied that his right hon. friend (Mr. Hus- kisson), who was the chairman of the committee, had used his anxious endeavours to guide their labors to the best advantage, both for the mother country and for the colony. There was another charge that was brought against him; namely, that he had lamented that, in some cases, the complaints from the colonies were of so vague a nature, that it was not always easy to make out what immediate grievance was complained of, nor the precise remedy to be applied. In vindication of that observation, he would ask any gentleman whether anything could be more vague than one of the complaints, which was, "the rejection by the legislative council of the most satisfactory measures passed by large majorities in the House of Assembly, and much desired by the people?" That, he thought, was of somewhat a vague and general nature. Another complaint was, that "persons were retained in public offices, and introduced into them, who ought notoriously to be excluded from them." This was very vague, certainly; though such charges were oftentimes made, and equally without foundation, in other countries. Another complaint was that in which they said in their petition—"We have omitted a matter of the first importance; and we did so because we forbear, with all the delicacy becoming us, in regard to the exercise of the royal prerogative, to comment on the total incapacity of military men for civil rule in these colonies." Could any thing be more vague than this? Both the hon. gentlemen who had spoken, had stated their conviction, that the two officers who were governing those colonies had given entire satisfaction to the House of Assembly. No officers could be more distinguished in their own profession; and they bore about them the marks of their services, in the severe wounds they had received in the field. It was only necessary for the persons who had sent home this memorial to look across their own frontier into the great republic adjoining their territory, and see a person elevated by the voice of his country to its highest station, who was a military man also, and who had risen to distinction by his successful achievements in war, and was now placed, in peace, in the highest civil office of the state. But, it was asked, how would he account for not bringing forward a measure, during the present session, with regard to the affairs of Canada? It was his intention, as he had stated more than once, to bring forward some measure, if he had found himself in possession of information to enable him to frame one. Nothing would be more unlikely to prove advantageous to the interests of the mother country and to those of the province, than for him to have brought forward any crude and undigested measure. Such information as he wanted all the members of the committee must be satisfied it was out of his power to obtain. The appointment of that committee arose, and very properly, out of the complaints from that province; and the nature of the complaints suggested that the grievance should be submitted to a committee of that House. They called for his right hon. friend, who was then in the situation of Colonial Secretary, to act as chairman of that committee. But there was no intimation given to the province of such an inquiry; and no person had been sent home to give information to the committee; and those men who had borne the petition, though men of considerable ability and information, came to this country pledged to an opinion from the province, and were naturally thought to have their opinion biased on this subject. To show how necessary it was to proceed with caution in regard to the affairs of distant provinces, the right hon. gentleman quoted an extract from a speech of Mr. Pitt's in support of his opinions. He then proceeded to read through the report of the committee, and to comment on passages of it. He generally expressed his approbation of the recommendations; but doubted whether a new colony furnished the materials of the improvements suggested. He also read an extract from a speech of Mr. Fox's, whom he praised equally with his illustrious rival. He had the greatest respect for the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England, and he should be glad to see it in operation throughout Canada; but as to the idea of forcing that Church on the people of Canada, it was impossible. There was no wish on the part of this government to thwart any of the suggestions of the Canada people; and since the report had been made he had transmitted a copy to each of the governors, and had asked for their opinion. There was a full disposition on his part to receive suggestions with respect to the provinces, as his only wish was to produce for them the greatest possible portion of happiness and prosperity. He concurred with the motion of the hon. gentleman, and was confident that the production of the papers would convince him, that no endeavors had been wanting at home to promote every measure for the advantage of the people.

expressed his regret that the right hon. gentleman had not answered the important question, as to what were the future intentions of government with respect to these colonies. The right hon. gentleman had expressed himself with great caution, and with becoming discretion, on the subject of the church of England. He was sorry he had not explained himself as fully on the principle of establishing an aristocracy in the colony. He could have wished that the principle on which the legislative council was established was less prevalent. It was impossible to concur in the policy of such a body, in a colony where the tendency of public feeling was quite the other way. He should be glad to hear from the right hon. gentleman that the affairs of the colony were not to be so much influenced by a council, consisting of the officers of government. He would not say that they were the passive tools of government, but he could not look to their conduct for some years past without thinking, that there was more influence of government amongst them than was consistent with the complete independence of a legislative body.

denied, that he was partial to the establishment of an aristocracy. The principles which he should like to see established in the colony were those of the British constitution.

denied, that the allegations of the parties who had complained of grievance in Canada, were vague. They were explicit enough, and deserved the most serious attention. He was inclined to place great confidence in the secretary for the colonies.

was of opinion, that the appointment of sir James Kempt, as governor of Canada, had done a great deal towards the welfare of that colony, and that nothing could have been more calculated to remedy the evils which had so long existed. Objection was made to the appointment of military men to such offices; but none connected with the civil service, who were capable of executing its duties, were desirous of accepting such an office. It was desirable that this country should interfere as little as possible with the internal arrangements of that country; especially as its vicinage to the United States placed it in a peculiar situation: where it was found that the interest of the whole empire were concerned, the legislature of this country was bound to interfere; but at the same time they must take care to abstain from going beyond that point.

said, that this was the only nation that did not feel it to be its first duty to convey to its dependencies the religion of the parent state.

thought, that as not above one tenth of the inhabitants of Upper Canada belonged to the church of England, it would be only converting that colony into a second Ireland to attempt to force the religion of that church upon her.

The motion was agreed to, and the House adjourned to the 12th instant.