was desirous of drawing the serious attention of the House to the state of distress to which the West-India colonies were reduced, and the burthen under which they were at present labouring. This principally arose from the very great duty on sugar—a duty so enormous and disproportionate to the value of that article, that, unless some reduction were immediately to take place, it would be impossible, he considered, for the West-India planter longer to bear up against it. The war duty existed at the present moment, and no substantial relief had been afforded to this important branch of commerce since the time of war, when extraordinary sacrifices were naturally expected to be made. The same duty of 27s. per cwt. remained undiminished at the present time, which with the other burthens imposed on the planters, and the flat state of the markets, had almost ruined them. On other articles of colonial produce a reduction of duty had taken place, and it had been followed by an increased consumption, causing no diminution in returns to the Revenue. To the article of coffee he would refer to show the advantage of a reduction of duty in increasing the consumption. Some few years ago, when it paid 1s. duty, the consumption was limited; but no sooner was the duty reduced to 6d. than the consumption rapidly increased, and had continued to increase up to the present period. If this beneficial result was apparent with respect to coffee, why, he would ask, should it not be so with regard to sugar? If some relief were not afforded, the whole of the plantations must go to ruin; many were now on the eve of being thrown up; and such was the state of distress to which the planter was reduced, that he knew many instances of planters who had, in order to lessen their expenses, been obliged to recall their children from this country, whither they had sent them for their education. A reduction of duty on their chief produce would save them from ruin, and be a benefit to the people at large of this empire. On this principle he called on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a large reduction in the duty on sugar. He called, too, on all those Gentlemen who had obtained seats in that House through West-India property, and he knew that there were many, to assist him in relieving that interest, now sunk to the lowest ebb. He called, too, on all the agriculturists of England, and many of them had obtained their land in England by property acquired in the colonies, to assist him in relieving their fellow-suffers in the West Indies. The noble Lord concluded by moving, as an Amendment to the Motion that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply—"That the duty of 27s. per cwt., which has been for several years past levied on British colonial sugar, is inconsistent with a due consideration of the present depressed state of the West Indies, and is injurious to the general interests of the country."

begged to second the proposition of the noble Lord, and to thank him for the zeal and ability with which he had introduced it. He was convinced that the most effectual relief which could be given to the West-India planters was by a large reduction of duty. Their distress had been acknowledged by all parties; and their claims for relief, though admitted by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had, nevertheless, been continually deferred till amore convenient season. Among the items of casual revenue accruing to the Crown, were the confiscated estates in Grenada, which paid into the Treasury, on the average of five years, 900l. per annum. Last year, however, instead of paying any revenue, the consignees had a claim on the Treasury; the proceeds of the crops having fallen short of the expenses of cultivation. Hon. Members, however, would be pleased to hear that these now unproductive estates had been granted, by an act of royal grace, to the families of the original proprietors: and therefore would not become a charge upon the country. If estates like these, without incumbrance, could not pay the expenses of cultivation, what must be the situation of those properties, the owners of which, in addition to paying the interests of mortgages, had to maintain themselves and families? The case of the West-India planter was one not of mere distress, but of absolute annihilation. Would it be believed, that notwithstanding this distress, taxes, in the shape of restrictions, were still exacted from the planter for the benefit of other interests? He paid a tax in the monopoly granted to the fisheries of Newfoundland, from whence alone he could obtain fish, the principal food of his negroes: he paid a tax, too, by being obliged to receive his timber and flour from the British provinces in North America, instead of through the foreign West Indies, or directly from the United States: he paid a tax also in being compelled to receive from Ireland his salt provisions, instead of getting them from Hamburgh or the United States of America: he further paid a tax in being restricted to Scotland for his Osnaburghs, and clothing for his negroes; instead of having access to the whole continent of Europe: he paid another tax still, of fifteen to thirty per cent levied upon all articles imported from foreign countries, necessary for the cultivation of his estates: he paid another tax in being restricted from improving his commodity by manufacture, being obliged, for the benefit of the British refiner, to ship his produce in the most bulky state. Finally, he paid a tax, by being compelled to ship his produce for this country by British vessels, when he might obtain a cheaper conveyance in foreign ships. The taxes which he had thus briefly enumerated were nothing less than bounties paid by the planter, and not by the nation, for the encouragement of the fisheries of Newfoundland, the provinces of British North America, the agriculturists of Ireland, the line manufacturers of Scotland, and the British ship owner. The extra expenses of cultivation resulting from these restrictions might be estimated at 5s. per cwt. upon the gross crop of the British planter. The extra freight paid by British ships might amount to 2s. more. The indirect taxes upon his cultivation, thus paid by the West-India planter, amounted to no less a sum than 1,000,000l. sterling per annum. The colonies were thus paying an extravagant price for what were miscalled colonial privileges. The most important privilege in return for these restrictions, was the monopoly of the home market for the produce originally granted under an implied compact between the mother country and her colonies. This compact, however, was violated on the part of the mother country,? he she admitted the produce of the ceded colonies, at the conclusion of the late war, into the home market. It was still more strikingly violated a few years ago, by the similar admission of the sugars of the Mauritius. The effect of these measures had been, to increase the importation of sugar beyond the consumption, to the extent of 500,000 hogsheads annually, and this was the real cause of the distress of the British planter. Nor could it be alleviated until an increasing consumption should have absorbed this surplus. He contended, as the privileges, in return for which the present restrictions were imposed on the colonies, bad, through the measures of the mother country, ceased to be of any value, that it was but equitable either to remove these restrictions, or to give in lieu of them some adequate compensation. Upon the grounds of justice then, as well as of expedience, the West-India planter had a strong claim for relief; and the most effectual and permanent mode of giving that relief was, by a large reduction of the present duty on sugar, which, by increasing the consumption, would be the means of gradually taking out of the market that surplus above the demand which deteriorated the price of sugar.

felt he was placed in a peculiarly embarrassing situation by the motion just made. Circumstanced as he was, if the noble Lord persisted in his motion, he must be compelled to meet it with a direct negative. The House and the noble Lord were aware of the very considerable revenue arising out of these duties, and that if they were repealed, or even reduced in amount, it would be necessary, though extremely difficult, immediately to replace the deficiency by some other tax or duties. If it were now a question to take off taxation, he would acknowledge that the West-Indians had a fair claim for consideration; but it must be remembered that the House had already in its wisdom determined on effecting considerable reductions of taxation, and had thus decided that there were other branches or departments in which relief from its pressure was more indispensable than in that particular class of the community. The majority of persons in that House, too, believed that in this instance they had gone as far as they ought to go, and had pressed reduction to its utmost limit. With the sincerest wish to assist in relieving any class, whether the agricultural, the manufacturing, or the commercial, when labouring under difficulties, it was always his duty, in thinking what could be done to alleviate their burthens, to keep in mind that the general interest of the nation demanded that there should be no inadequacy in the produce of the taxes to meet the yearly engagements of the State, to maintain public credit, and provide for our national safety. No real benefit to any class could result out of measures which were adopted without a due regard to these great and paramount objects. For these reasons he must oppose the Motion; but had the noble Lord allowed him to go into the committee, he would have found that he was about to introduce something which might render his Resolution unnecessary, and be a very desirable and effectual relief to the West-India planter. He should for the present state, that he intended in the committee to move that an alteration should be made in the scale by which the duty was now levied on sugar, and by which a great reduction of duty would be effected. His plan was, when the average price of sugar was 30s. per cwt., to reduce the duty on all low-priced sugars, beginning with those which were 1s. above the average, which were to have a reduction of duty amounting to 1s. 6d., and proceeding down to the lowest priced sugars, the reduction of duty on which would be 7s. The duties, as they were now levied, were most severely felt upon the lower qualities of sugars, and it was of their operation in this respect that the West-India planters more immediately complained; he, therefore, believed this would be a measure which would go far to satisfy the wishes and wants of the West-India interest. The mode in which he intended to make provision or the deficiency which would be thus occasioned in the Revenue, making a due allowance for the effects of an increased consumption of sugar, in consequence of the reduction, he would take an early opportunity of stating to the House, in another stage of the proceeding. Thus much he felt himself called on now to state, in order to show, that though he was obliged to resist the motion of the noble Lord, yet he could not justly be charged with being indifferent to, or unmindful of, the sufferings or distressed situation of that interest in the State which the noble Marquis said had at present most reason to complain, and to shew generally that his Majesty's Government was at all times disposed to do all in its power to alleviate the distresses of any class which might be compatible with the true interests of the State,; and the maintenance of our public credit, and our national security.

wished to know whether this reduction was to reach other sugars than those imported from the West-Indies. It would be more desirable that a reduction of duties on East-India sugars, for instance, should be made than on West-India sugars;—at least he thought so.

replied that he would explain his views in the committee.

hoped the noble Lord would not press the House to a division on the subject. It would be more wise to withdraw the Resolution, and consent to go into the committee, to learn what was the project of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

said, he was so circumstanced with respect to the interests, which he represented in that House, that he would on no account consent to withdraw his Resolution.

said, he had long been of opinion, that the reduction of duty on sugar might be effected without a great diminution of the Revenue; yet he certainly thought, in a case like this, where a Minister of the Crown had risen in his place, and announced to the noble Lord that he had a plan to submit, which very closely resembled that on which they were about to divide, it would be only consistent with the usages of Parliament to permit that Minister to go into the committee, to put the House in possession of the plan contemplated by Government. Besides, the Resolutions could be mooted in a much more convenient form in the committee than in the House. In the former his right hon. friend could produce the measure, and have the Resolutions at least printed and circulated amongst the West-India interest and planters. He feared, however, that even the reduction of the duties would fail to alleviate the distress complained of, which had its source in far other causes than the Legislature had power to reach—the new and altered circumstances of the world around them, and the new rivals who had sprung up to compete in a trade once almost exclusively their own.

also recommended his noble friend to withdraw his Motion. He thought the principle of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan better calculated to give relief to the most suffering class of West-India proprietors than a general reduction of duty. He did not mean to say that the scale of relief was quite sufficient, but he thought the principle a good one. If his noble friend did not withdraw his Motion, he must, however reluctantly, vote against him. For he could not vote against hearing the proposition of his right hon. friend.

knew that his noble friend could not consistently with his duty to the West-India proprietors, to whom he was pledged, do otherwise than submit his Resolution to the House. If his noble friend should think it was his duty to divide the House on the question, he would certainly vote with him.

, having previously given a notice on the subject of the sugar duties, the object of which would be to reduce them, should certainly, under any other circumstances, not be sorry to support the motion of the noble Lord. But on the present occasion he must differ from him because it was unfair and unparliamentary when a proposition was announced by a Minister of the Crown not to allow him to state it. By pressing the motion to a division the noble Lord would compel him to vote against him—while by allowing the House to go into a Committee, he pledged himself to nothing. He hoped the noble Lord would not therefore prejudge the case. With respect to the loss to the Revenue by a reduction of duty, his opinion was perhaps different from that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer but that was with him a reason why he wished to hear his right hon. friend's statement. It would be very unfair not to allow him to make that statement. His right hon. friend by his proposition, admitted that the West-India interest required relief; and he thought the noble Lord should place himself on the vantage ground which would be given him by listening to the concessions of his right hon. friend. For his own part, he was afraid that the proposition would not go so far as he wished. His right hon. friend said nothing of any other sugar than West-India sugar—nothing of the Mauritius sugar—and nothing of that very important, and, in his opinion, necessary subject—the introduction of sugar of all kinds under bond, to refine it for exportation without paying any duty or drawback whatever. He wished, however, that the Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman should be made known and printed, so that the West-India interest and the public at large might be made aware of his intentions, He therefore should resist the Motion of the noble Marquis, in order to allow his right hon. friend to make his statement.

regretted that the relief intended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have been deferred till the evil was, he was afraid, almost past cure. It was well known to every individual that the West-India planter had been labouring under the severest distress for the last four or five years; and every class of his fellow subjects had been relieved by reduction of taxation, while he continued to pay the heavy war duty of 27s per cwt. on his produce. No attention had been paid to his situation or difficulties, his prayers and his petitions had been neglected, till ruin had overtaken him, and estates were given up from the extreme pressure of the times. His right hon. friend, the member for Liverpool, adverted, among other causes of distress, to the introduction of the Mauritius sugar. It was with no unkind feeling that he took the liberty to remind his right hon. friend, that this very prejudicial measure to the old colonies took place, when he himself was President of the Board of Trade. He then stated to the West-Indian deputation, that "the quantity likely to be received from the Mauritius could never exceed 10,000 or 12,000 hogsheads;" whereas, in the last year the importation was 25,000, and in the present year would probably be 40,000 hogsheads. According to the latest information, every acre of ground, in that settlement had been devoted to the cultivation of sugar, and the colonists there had ceased to grow even their own provisions, importing from Madagascar both grain and cattle. The noble Lord who had proposed the Resolution to the House, was eminently entitled to the support of every person connected with the colonies, for the unwearied attention he had paid to their interests. If, therefore, he should think fit to press his Resolution to a division, it should certainly receive his vote.

The House divided, when there appeared—For the original Question 102; Against it 23—Majority 79.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.

then rose and said, that he thought it advisable to make a statement to the Committee on the subject of the Sugar Duties. The bill regulating those duties must be soon brought under the consideration of Parliament, and he should proceed to state to the House, without preface, the measure he should recommend for its adoption. He had the misfortune to appear to the West-India interest, in the performance of his duty in that House, as if he did not feel for the difficulties under which that interest laboured, though he knew that on it the sugar duties pressed with great severity. He could, however, assure the House, that he personally felt the extent of those difficulties; and was ready, consistently with his duty, to do what was in his power to lighten them. He had been long made sensible of the unfortunate situation of the West-India proprietors. The motion of the noble Lord, which he had felt it necessary to resist, was for such a reduction of duty as he could not consent to without risking such a portion of the Revenue as might endanger the national credit. He felt it, therefore, impossible to accede to the motion of his noble friend. The proposition he should have to propose was much more limited. After making such very large reductions in the Revenue as had lately been made—such a very large reduction of taxation, that it was thought by some persons that he had gone a great deal too far—he could not hazard any very great further reduction without danger. That reduction had been made to give relief to a very suffering class of persons, He was well aware that by reducing the duty on sugar there would be great additional consumption; and as he knew that sugar, instead of now being, as it formerly was, a luxury, had become almost a necessary of life for the lower classes, he should have been very willing to reduce the duty on it, had he not, in order to give that class relief, previously reduced duties to a very great amount on articles which contributed even more to their comfort than the reduction of the duties on sugar. The interest of the grower of sugar would also, he was well aware, be benefitted by such reduction of the duty on sugar as would promote its consumption. He meant, therefore, to propose such a reduction as he thought best calculated to give relief to the grower of sugar, and promote its consumption, without injuring the Revenue. The estates, which produced sugars of the finest quality were, he was informed, not in such a bad situation as those which produced the coarse sugars. He had received from an hon. friend of his, whose knowledge on this subject was both extensive and accurate, the particulars of two estates of the same extent, and cultivated by the same number of negroes; but one produced the finer kinds of sugar, and the other the coarser. If the House would allow him, he would state in detail the particulars of these two estates. Both estates produced 150 hogsheads each. In the first case—the estate which produced the fine sugar—the 150 hogsheads sold for 66$. per cwt. and the gross sum they fetched was 6,438l.; the rum was sold for 4,131l.; the total gross produce selling for 10,569l The first charge on it was the duty to the Crown, which, on the sugar, was 2,630l., and on the rum 3,340l.; the addittional charges the proprietor had to pay, such as insurance, freight, commission, &c amounted to 1,160l. The charges in the island, called Colonial charges, amounted to 900l. The negro clothing and food, and other expenses, amounted to 600., making together a sum of 1,500l. The whole charges on the 150 hogsheads let the proprietor a profit of 1,939l. This was, he was aware, a great fall from the very high prices and large profits which had formerly been obtained for West-India produce; but when he compared it with the fall on every other species of property, on land, on mortgages, &c, he could not think the fall in this instance was so great as imperatively to call for the interference of Parliament. In the second estate to which he wished to call the attention of the House the sugars produced were all of inferior qualities, and produced on an average about 46s. per cwt. Without going into a detail of all the charges of duty, cost of production, and other disbursements, he thought a simple statement of the result would be sufficient to show how far the Government had sufficient ground, from the return, to justify that mode of alleviating the distresses of the West-India planter which it now intended to propose. This estate produced 150 hogsheads of sugar yearly, and the whole income obtained from it by the proprietor was something short of 100l. yearly. The Government, although unable to afford that gene- ral relief which the situation of the great body of the West-Indians demanded, considered, however, that it had here an ample field in which it might attempt to give some partial relief without affecting the interests of any others who might be entitled to claim equal consideration. The way in which he intended to effect some relief was this:—On every hundred weight of sugar a duty of 27s. had hitherto been collected, without any regard to the quality of the sugar. Undoubtedly this method of taking the duty presented great advantages as regarded the collection of the revenue, or the prevention of any fraud by substituting one sugar for another; and he was only induced to depart from the system which prevailed, by an anxiety to afford the West-India interest such a temporary relief as would form an advantage to them at present, and be a guide to the Government, enabling it to attain, with less risk and more certainty, a satisfactory result from any further reduction of the duty which it might think proper hereafter to propose. The measure, therefore, which he was about to propose would be both temporary and experimental. It was well known to many of the Gentlemen around him, that the price of sugars in London was published in the Gazette upon the average of each weekly sale in the London market, He proposed, then, that when the average price was 30s. that then there be paid on all sugars that do not exceed that price by 1s. a duty of 1s. 6d. less than the 27s., or, in other words, a duty of 1l. 5s. 6d. That on sugar of less value than 30s. by 3s., there shall be paid a duty of 1l. 4s. That on sugars of less value than 30s. by 4s. there shall be paid a duty of 1l. 2s. 6d.; and that when the sugars were of less value then 30s. by 5s., then there shall be paid a duty of 1l., making the duty on a sugar which cost 25s. only 20s., and a reduction of duty on the low-priced sugar of 7s. per cwt. If he were told that this plan presented so many difficulties as to render it likely the attempt to carry it into effect would produce a loss to the Revenue, his answer was, that although he might calculate upon some artifice being used to produce a depression in the price of sugars, yet he did not apprehend it would be such as to cause any material loss to the Revenue. With regard to the selection of the low-priced sugars for the purpose of a reduction of the duty, he might observe, remembering too the question put to him by the hon. member for Aberdeen, that as the East-India sugar comes into immediate competition with the higher-priced West-India sugars, so long as that competition continued, it would not be necessary to adopt any measures for producing a reduction in the duty on it. To do so, in fact would be unfair to the high-priced West-India sugar. Those sugars, however, on which a reduction of 7s. of duty would be made, were those which came most into consumption among the great body of the people; and he fully expected that this reduction of 7s. would make an increase in that consumption of at least one-third, which increase would compensate in some measure for the loss of the duty. It would also enable the House to as certain, by way of experiment, how far the reduction of duties on an article of extensive consumption among the lower classes, and of which they had enjoyed till now the means of obtaining but a very moderate supply, might justify it in making still further reductions without any great injury to the Revenue. The principle; of lowering duties, and thereby increasing the revenue by adding to the consumption, was one which he was at all times anxious to see carried into effect, wherever it could be done without permanent injury to the Revenue of the country. It was necessary, however, to admit at once, that although he calculated on an increased consumption producing some increase of duty, yet, as the whole of the duty thus given up would amount to 350,000l. or 400,000l., and he could not calculate on more than one-half of that being returned, there was still a deficiency of 200,000l. to be made good. As that sum, therefore, must be taken from other sources to make up the estimated amount of the year's Revenue, he thought he should be dealing more fairly with the House to state now the method by which he proposed to make good the deficiency. Relying on the increased consumption producing one-half, he thought the remainder could be found in some modification of those duties which he had announced as his intention, at the commencement of the Session, to impose on English, Scotch, and Irish spirits. It would be recollected that he stated the new duty to be 1s. on English spirits, and 2d. on Scotch and Irish. Since that time, however, the hon. member for Carlisle had suggested that the great difference between Scotch and English spirits, created by this duty, would tend much to increase smuggling. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) confessed that this objection had a great effect on his mind; and subsequent inquiries had satisfied him that the method of doing justice to all parties would be to impose a duty of 6d. a gallon on Scotch and Irish spirits, and at the same time to put a duty of 6d. also on English spirits, and also on run, so as to place the whole of the Colonial and British spirits on the same footing. From this alteration he confidently calculated upon an additional revenue of 200,000l. He might be told by some persons that he was favouring too much the West-India interest by this arrangement. The Colonists, on the other hand, might say he had not gone far enough. To those who complained of the boon to the Colonists he would say, that he was conferring a temporary benefit for the relief of an interest suffering under a great and partial depression. To the Colonists he would say, that he had made as much concession to their interest as was consistent with a due regard to the claims of others; and he fully expected that the effect of these measures would be productive of prosperity to all classes. He had only to add that his right hon. friend at the head of the Board of Trade would in a short time state what he proposed to do with respect to that other branch of the subject which was connected with the refining of sugar, the Act for regulating which would expire at the end of the present Session.

On the question that the Resolutions be read,

expressed a hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not push forward the discussion on such important Resolutions as these, without sufficient time being allowed for considering them. It would be better, he thought, to print the Resolutions, and fix some day for the debate to be taken on them.

said, that in the ordinary course the resolutions would be printed immediately after they had been reported to the House. He had no objection to comply with his right hon. friend's request; but the difficulty he felt was one of time, because the Sugar Duties Act would expire on the 5th July next, and he was anxious to get through some of the preparatory stages of the alterative measures as soon as possible. He thought the House might permit him to report the Resolutions; and when they were printed, to take the discussion on a future day.

begged the right hon. Gentleman to recollect that the plan contained in these resolutions came by surprise on the House, and was perfectly novel to almost all the Members. He hoped, therefore, that time would be given to thoroughly sift and examine them, before they were called on to decide that they should be adopted.

repeated his willingness to allow full time for the proper examination of the resolutions; but he thought that could be done quite as well if the resolutions were now passed through the Committee.

said, that it was quite impossible that the Committee could understand the nature of these intricate Resolutions without much consideration. The ascending and descending scale of duties was peculiarly intricate, and he thought it would be much better to have them printed, and adjourn the discussion until that day week. The right hon. Gentleman had explained a portion of his plan, but he had forgotten to say anything on the subject of drawbacks—a question intimately connected with the intended alteration. The right hon. Gentleman should also recollect, that the scale of duties on spirits was totally different from what he had stated at the commencement of the Session. In point of fact, the duty which was to have been 1s., was now to be 6d, and an additional 6d. was to be laid on rum—a spirit on which the present rate of duty in Ireland amounted almost to a prohibition. It was a very questionable matter, too, whether the measure of the right hon. Gentleman would operate as a relief to the West-Indians. The most distressed of the West-India islands were our old colonies, which produced very little of that kind of sugar on which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to reduce the duty; while the least distressed colonies—such as Demerara and others—sent to this country a vast quantity of that very kind of sugar. However good, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman's plan might be in principle, it was extremely doubtful whether it would not fail altogether in practice. He did not state these circumstances as objections to his right hon. friend's plan, but as considerations which should induce him to consent to the delay.

pledged himself to explain the question of drawbacks fully at another opportunity. The only ground of objection he could have to the proposition of his right hon. friend was the evil of delay.

objected strongly to the temporary nature of the right hon. Gentleman's measure. All alterations of taxation produced a change in the quantity or quality of production. This plan would cause the coarser kind of sugars to be extensively cultivated in the colonies, and the consequence would be, that if the right hon. Gentleman found his temporary plan did not answer, he would step in with some alteration ruinous to those he now encouraged. If the principle were good, he saw no reason why it should not be permanent. He objected, however, to all legislation for peculiar interests. The East-Indians were as much entitled to protection as the West-Indians. They had abundance of the coarser sorts of sugars, which they were prevented from exporting. All they wanted was a fair opportunity of competition, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see the propriety of making a very considerable reduction in the 27s. duty, if he did not abolish it altogether.

again expressed a hope that he might be permitted to forward the resolutions a stage. The drawbacks he would explain in the Committee.

said, that whatever might be done, he hoped the Resolutions would be recommitted.

stated, that he would move in that Committee that the duties on sugars imported into Ireland be reduced one-half.

said, that of all those connected with the trade in sugar, no class was so much distressed as the sugar refiners, and he hoped that they would not be forgotten in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's arrangement. For six months in the year they were compelled to pay a high scarcity price for the raw material, in consequence of the course pursued by the West-India merchants; and he trusted that the West-India interest would not be protected at the expense of the sugar refiner. That interest could not be protected against the fall of prices on the Continent, and as long as our Colonies produced a greater quantity of sugar than this country consumed, it was obvious that its price here must be regulated by the price of sugar on the Continent. The total importation of sugar every year was four millions of hundred weights. Three millions and a half of this were consumed at home, and the other half million or about one-eighth of the whole, was exported. It was obvious that the price of sugar must be regulated by the price of that exported, and that the interest of the West-India planter would not be at all affected by allowing foreign sugar to be brought into this country to be refined. He trusted, therefore, that the new arrangements would introduce some regulations to leave the sugar refiners less at the mercy of the West-India interest, for their property had already suffered a sufficiently alarming depreciation.

hoped, that the discussion on the subject of the Spirit Duties, including the imposition of the additional duty on rum, would be taken at the same time as the discussion on the sugar duties, as they were a part and parcel, as well as a consequent of those duties.

, in reply to the hon. member for Preston (Mr. J. Wood) said it was his intention at the earliest opportunity to state the changes to be introduced into the Act which regulated the refining of sugar.

begged to ask when the right hon. Gentleman intended to explain his intentions with regard to the Customs' Duties Bill?

said, he had given way to the more important measures of his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer,) but it was his intention at an, early day to bring the subject before the House.

, after observing that the Court of Directors of the East-India Company gave themselves little trouble with respect to its affairs, begged to know if the right hon. Gentleman intended to assimilate the duties between East and West India produce?

said, his plan did not embrace such an assimilation.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer consented that the resolutions should be printed, and the discussion taken on that day-week.

The following Resolutions were then read pro forma.

"That it is the opinion of this Committee, that towards raising the supply granted to his Majesty, there shall be charged the following duties upon sugar imported into the United Kingdom; that is to say,—

"Upon all brown, or muscovado, or clayed sugar, being the produce of, and imported from, the British possessions in America, or the island of Mauritius, according to the average price of brown or muscovado sugar, published in the manner directed by law:—viz.

The House resumed,—the Committee to sit again on Monday next.

, before any vote was proposed, took occasion to say, that in consequence of the understanding that the sugar and spirit duties would occupy the House the greater part of the evening, many Members had left the House who were desirous of taking part in some of the matters which were now likely to be called on. He wished to ask whether it was intended to enter into any discussion of the Canada Bill, or whether it was intended to put it off to a future day?

said, he had intended to make a motion relative to the superannuations, but, upon the understanding that the Committee of Supply would not be proceeded in tonight, he was not now prepared to go on with it.

said, that he proposed to introduce several alterations and additions to the Canada Bill. It was his intention to move the second reading of it, and its commitment pro formo, and the discussion might be taken upon the recommitment.

observed, that as his objections were, not to the details of the Bill, but to the principle of the measure, he did not know that he ought to suffer it to pass the second reading without a discussion. He would not, however, oppose any obstacles to the arrangement of his right hon. friend.

The House went into a Committee.

said, he must call upon the Committee to join with him in resisting this vote. It was at once wasteful and unconstitutional. Perhaps the House did not know that the colony of Nova Scotia, for the Civil Establishment of which it was asked to vote 10,500l. had a Parliament of its own, and a Legislative Council of its own, and was very willing to pay the expenses of its own government if it were only left to itself. That the inhabitants were as able as willing to do so he held documents in his hand to prove. The first was an account presented to the Finance Committee in 1828 of the whole revenue of this colony, which amounted to 38,360Z. He had also copies of a correspondence between the Legislative Council and the House of Assembly, in which the latter stated that it was prepared to raise what ever sum of money might be required to defray the civil expenditure, if it were only allowed to appropriate it as it judged best. But it appeared that these offers had been rejected, and that, in consequence of disputes between the Council and the House of Assembly, the latter had been dissolved, and the Tax Bills of course suspended. All this had been caused by the intervention of the government. It was a strange circumstance that the proceedings of several of the governors of our colonies seemed to have a tendency to make the products of these colonies less beneficial than they otherwise would be, and if they pursued their impolitic course they would infallibly produce a civil war. There were, however, exceptions to these governors. Sir James Kempt, when he presided over Nova Scotia, formed a strong contrast to Earl Dalhousie, who, although there were several complaints against him, was yet promoted, as if to reward him for misconduct. If the Colonial Legislature had the power of making the appointments and fixing the salaries of their own officers, the affairs of the colonies would be administered for half of what they now cost. He himself never had a doubt but that under the 18th George 3rd the principle was conceded that the colonies had a right to tax themselves. But, without agitating the abstract question of right, there could be no doubt but that some of these appointments were made upon the most extravagant scale of expense. Thus the customs were collected at an expense of full eighty per cent, and post-masters were appointed by the Post-office at home in violation of all the rights of the colony. By returns laid upon the Table of the House it appeared that in 1826 the whole amount of customs collected was 15,000l. while the salaries for collectors, and the charge for collection generally, was as much as 6,250l.; so that only 8,000l. or 9,000l. was paid into the Exchequer; for the collectors were in the habit of paying themselves first, and then handing over the residue. In the present year the whole amount of customs thus handed over was only 9,000l. For this there was a collector with a salary of 2,000l. a comptroller with a salary of 1,000l. two waiters with salaries of 400l. each, &c. The pay of the Judges, as contrasted with these allowances, was very small; the Chief Justice had only 850l. and the Judges of the Supreme Court 540l. This was an unfair depreciation of the station of the Judges. Now, among a population amounting in 12 counties to 139,540 persons (according to the return in 1826,) there could not be any great difficulty in raising the means of paying for their civil government. The hon. Member next noticed the appointment of the Deputy Postmaster of Nova Scotia by the Postmaster General here as an infraction of the rights of the colonies. He insisted that it ought not to be made an appurtenance to the patronage of any officer in this country; and the sum for which this interference with their rights was attempted was, after all, but a trifle; for it appeared that the whole amount of postage collected in the two Canadas, in 1825, was 17,000l., and, in 1826, 18,000l.; but for Nova Scotia it was only 4,000l. or 5,000l. For all these reasons he (Mr. Hume) should propose to reduce this vote to the extent of what the Customhouse establishment of Nova Scotia cost. He had reason to know that, if the appointment of these officers was left in the hands of the Colonial Legislature, they would get the business done for less than a third of what it now cost, as a collector might be had for 500l. a year, and a comptroller for 300l. He trusted that next year we should be able to dispense with the vote altogether. He concluded by moving that the vote be reduced to 4,445l.

said, he heard with no small surprise some of the statements of the hon. member for Aberdeen. It was quite new to him that this colony had ever offered to pay its own expenses; he should be very happy to hear, from good authority, that it was in so solvent a condition; but as this was the first hint he had upon the subject, he rather feared the hon. member for Aberdeen had been reckoning without his host. In another small matter, too, stated by the hon. Member, there was a slight inaccuracy. It was said, that the differences between the Legislative Council and the House of Assembly were fomented by the intrigues of the Governor; but the fact was, that, at the very time that these discussions were going on, the Governor was at Bermuda, and the only part which Government took in the matter was, to advise a reconciliatory course to both parties, while it endeavoured to compromise their dissensions. There was, therefore, no ground whatever for inculpating Government as connected with these colonial proceedings. Allusion had been made to the conduct of the Earl of Dalhousie, whose promotion was said to be a reward for his malersations in office. He (Sir George Murray) was not in office when the last appointment of that Nobleman took place; but he recollected perfectly, that his right hon. friend, the member for Liverpool, who was then Colonial Secretary, said, that the Earl of Dalhousie had given satisfaction in his government of Nova Scotia, that there existed no reasonable ground of complaint against him, and he was therefore recommended to his Majesty to fill a higher place. With respect to the Customs at Nova Scotia there was also a trifling mistake. Hitherto the incomes of the officers had been derived, as in other colonies, from fees, but the colonial legislature thought proper to change this system into fixed salaries, which was the case at present. About this matter, therefore, there could be no dispute, as the salaries had been fixed in Nova Scotia. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would support the Resolution.

was sorry the conduct of the Earl of Dalhousie had been adverted to, as it would provoke him to do that which he was always unwilling to do—to denounce the conduct of that Nobleman, whilst in his government, in the strongest terms. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that the personal conduct of the Earl of Dalhousie was found to be without blame; but that statement was made before the Report of the Canada Committee was presented, and before many things which had since come to light were known. He (Mr. Labouchere) should say, that he hoped never again to see that noble Lord sent to govern Englishmen. The militia dismissals, for example, which were his personal acts, were entirely without excuse or defence.

observed, that he had not expressed any opinion of his own on Lord Dalhousie's conduct; he had merely adverted to the opinion which had been expressed by the right hon. member for Liverpool.

was glad to hear the admission of the right hon. Secretary, as it spared him the disagreeable necessity of detailing along list of constitutional offences which Lord Dalhousie had committed.

was decidedly of opinion that it was for the Crown to appoint the officers of the colony; but there was a wide difference between its appointing officers, and appointing them at the enormous salaries which had been described. If proper officers were appointed by the Crown, at suitable salaries, the inhabitants of the colony would not be justified in expressing any dissatisfaction on the subject.

To appoint such officers was an undeniable prerogative of the Crown; and the executive authority ought in no case to be placed in the hands of the legislature. With respect to the expense, however, it was certainly a just subject of consideration, to ascertain how far the colony of Nova Scotia was capable of taking that expense upon itself. If it were proved that it could not, or that it could only do it partially, then the difference should be supplied by a vote of that House. It was a question of degree.

hoped, that on a future occasion this vote might be in great part, if not altogether dispensed with. He especially objected to the item for a vessel in the service of the Superintendent of Fisheries. Nova Scotia was essentially an agricultural country; Newfoundland, the adjacent colony, was exclusively devoted to the fishery, without any agriculture. Now he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman why 1,500l. a year was to be voted for the encouragement of the fisheries in Nova Scotia, which was an agricultural country, while Newfoundland, which was devoted to the fisheries, was left to struggle on without assistance? A few years ago 5,000l. had been voted for the encouragement of the fisheries of Nova Scotia—why should we add to that assistance and leave Newfoundland unaided? On these grounds he decidedly objected to the vote.

observed, that 5,000l. had been voted for the improvement of private property in the colony, and now the money of the people of England was to be expended in maintaining its establishments. He contended that the revenue of the colony, and only the revenue of the colony, should be applied to the purposes of the colony.

, while he concurred entirely with the hon. member for Newcastle, that the moment the revenue of the colony could be rendered available for the purposes of the colony, it ought to be so rendered, denied that it was justifiable thus so suddenly to withdraw the proposed grant before the condition of that revenue had been ascertained. The hon. member for Worcester was always the able and zealous advocate of the fisheries of Newfoundland; he acted as if he were the representative of that island; he objected to the grant, because its fisheries were not assisted, and therefore contended that the inhabitants of Nova Scotia were not entitled to any assistance. But, at one time the fisheries were carried on very extensively by Nova Scotia, although that colony was deprived of them by the acts of this country. All who knew anything of Nova Scotia knew that it was the interest of the colony to carry on the fisheries, and that it was most advantageously situated for that purpose. He was ready to sustain all these grants at present, but should be happy to relieve the country from this burthen whenever the colonial resources could be made adequate to the wants of the people.

did not deny the abstract right of the Crown to appoint to offices in the colonies, but he denied that it was expedient to exercise such a right. This country paid for it by all the money it voted, and the colonists would support these officers if they might appoint them. The appointments made by the Crown generally served to set the colony in a flame. He objected in the vote, particularly to 1,000l. for a college, and 2000l. for a Bishop. These items might seem to be small sums, but he objected to the principle on which they were granted, and should certainly resist the vote on their account.

objected to money being voted for the internal improvements of Nova Scotia. He could not see why the mother country should be called on to furnish money to the colonies for purposes which only benefitted themselves. Why should this country vote grants for roads, bridges, and canals, in Nova Scotia? This country was taxed 1,000,000l. a-year for the North American colonies—a useless expenditure, which might be saved if they were set free.

concurred in the principle laid down by the hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. W. Horton) that it was the prerogative of the Crown to appoint to public offices in the colonies; but he also thought that the Legislative Assembly ought to be allowed to limit the amount of remuneration given to persons so appointed. In his opinion, the colony, if it were allowed to manage its own resources would be able to pay all its expenses.

observed, that there was always great difficulty it legislating respecting the colonies; and thought the Secretary for the colonies should be obliged to bring down to that House a debtor and creditor account, having the resources of the country on one side and its necessary expenditure on the other. Until such an account was produced he could not vote for the grant.

also concurred in the principle advanced by the hon. member for Newcastle, that the colonies ought to pay their own expenses for the management of the different departments. With regard to Nova Scotia, he had only to say that a measure had been introduced, the operation of which, Government had not yet time to ascertain, and in the mean time, therefore, it would be expedient to continue the grant till the result should be known. It was extremely probable that in a short time the colony would be able to pay all its own expenses, and then the grant would be no longer necessary. He was also inclined to concur with the member for Abingdon, that colonies, speaking generally, should be at the expense of making roads and bridges; but it ought to be borne in mind that while the colony was young, and unable to make the necessary improvements, it was the duty and interest of the mother country to assist it, because that was the most likely way of enabling the colony to find resources for making improvements.

explained.

said a few words in explanation, and expressed his determination to support the vote, because he was one of those who thought that colonies were beneficial to the mother country, and it was good policy to assist them till they could find resources for meeting every expenditure.

said, that the expenses of these colonies was so great, that he would persist in opposing the Motion. In order to protect them in the article of timber alone, this country had to pay nearly one million annually. If, however, the right hon. Secretary would say that this should be the last grant, he would withdraw his opposition.

said, as Government did not seem inclined to accede to the proposition of his hon. friend, he would persist in his Amendment. He was rather surprised at the observations of the hon. member for Kerry, because they were so different from the opinions he appeared to entertain formerly on similar subjects.

, in explanation, denied that his opinions had at all changed.

said, he could not accede unconditionally to the proposition of the hon. member for Abingdon, but he would do what he could to induce the Legislative Assembly to take all the charge of the expenditure on themselves.

said, he would give a pledge that the Assembly would agree to make good all the expenses of Government, provided they were allowed to manage their own affairs.

The Committee divided—For the Amendment 59; For the original Motion 107—Majority for the Grant 48.

said, that the receipts of that colony amounted to 36,000l., and would be able to supply its own demands if it were properly managed. In fact, as long ago as 1818, the colony had expressed its willingness to meet its own expenses. The whole amount of the sum now demanded from Parliament might be spared if the Government would but reduce two or three of the officers of the colony.

thought, that this was even a stronger case for reduction than that which had been last under the notice of the Committee. He would just submit to the consideration of the Committee a few of the items of our colonial expenditure in this quarter in the year 1826. There was one item of 6,000l. for bounties on bread; then there was a charge of 16,253l. for roads, &c; and for public buildings an item of 12,900l. On the whole, it appeared that in 1826 the expenditure amounted to 55,000l., which far exceeded the revenue derived from these colonial possessions; and these people would go on, year after year, exceeding in expenditure the amount of their revenue, as long as we were obliged to defray their expenditure. He thought the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Colonies, had given, in some degree, a satisfactory pledge as to reductions generally; and he only hoped to see it carried into effect.

would just refer the Committee to what had been done in reference to the items of expenditure noticed by the hon. Gentleman, to show that Government had done much to cut down that expenditure. The charge for the bounties for bread in 1826 amounted, as he had stated, to 6,000l.; that was reduced in the year 1828 to 4,148l.; the charge for roads, &c in 1826, was 16,253l., and in 1828 it that been reduced to 9,773l. The charge for public buildings had been great in consequence of the public calamity which occurred a few years ago in that colony; he alluded to the fire which had raged to such an extent, and had produced such destructive consequences there. Without giving any pledge beyond what he had already given, he should say, that the same principle which he promised to apply to the expenditure of the last colony which was under the consideration of the Committee should be applied also in this instance. This colony was rapidly recovering from the effects of the calamity to which he had alluded, and it would soon be able to defray its own charges.

objected to the large salaries of the Commissioner and the Surveyor of Crown-lands in the province, and to that of the Secretary and Clerk of the Council. He should take the sense of the House on the salaries of these three officers, who received together a sum of 1,660l.

said something across the Table to the hon. Member, which was inaudible in the gallery.

answered, that as the right hon. Gentleman had given something like a pledge on that subject, he would not press the question to a division.

Vote agreed to.

objected to the high salary given to the Colonial Secretary there. It was greater than in Newfoundland, and some other of our colonies.

should not object to this vote, as he considered this was an exception to the other colonies.

observed, that the Customs in this colony were not twice as much as the sum charged for collecting them. Besides this, the House did not know what the revenue was. The Customs were stated at 4,850l., and of that sum 2,490l. were paid for the charges of collection, and the remaining 2,370l. was paid over as the net produce of the Customs, so that it appeared there was a charge of 100 per cent for the collection. The salary of the Collector of the Customs was on the same footing with that of the Chief Justice, which he thought it ought not to be.

Resolution agreed to.

observed, that there were two new items in the estimate of this year. The first was a pension to the late Governor of 500l. a-year; and the other a charge to the same amount for the arrears of that salary. He wanted to know what those arrears were?

said, that this pension had been assigned on a fund which had since been unproductive. That fund was the quitrents of the colony, which had not been paid up, and the pension, therefore, had been charged in the Estimates.

thought, that this case proceeded upon quite a new principle.

said, the salary of the Governor had formerly been small—only 800l. a-year. It was now increased; but the former Governor wad been pensioned off before the increase, and after a service of ten years in the colony.

was of opinion, that the Government ought to give some account of these quitrents, and why they were not paid.

said, they could not be paid in the present state of the colony. If the colony had an adequate population they might be paid. At present there were tens of thousands of acres unproductive in it, for want of a population. Whenever these quitrents became productive, the expense of the colony would be thrown upon them.

thought the Government had been highly blameable to assign a pension on a fund which it must have known would be unproductive; as, according to the right hon. Gentleman, the Island possessed no people to pay the quitrents. The whole system was a farce, and the Ministers who had assigned a pension on such a fund, ought to pay the arrears out of their own pockets. Let them take the Island and make what they could of it; he made them a present of it, provided they took the charges with it.

repeated, that in giving the colony a population, Parliament would give them the means of bearing the expenses of their own Government.

trusted that the Committee would reject this pension, as the House had lately cut off the pensions of two sons of Cabinet Ministers.

remarked, that the strongest part of the case was, that the revenue of the colony was 10,000l., and its expenses were only 4,000l. There was, therefore, a surplus revenue of 6,000l., which might bear the expenses; but which he found thus marked—"Surplus Revenue to be applied in the erection of public buildings, of which there are none of any description." He hoped that with such an income and expenditure, the right hon. Gentleman would pledge himself that Parliament should not be called on in future for any grant for this colony.

said, as there appeared to be a surplus revenue in the colony, he hoped that the Committee would reject the grant.

said, the revenue was under the direction of the province, and was not subject to the control of the Government at home.

observed, that the general rule was, that civil governors should have no retiring allowances. But there might be cases in which the state of the colony rendered it advisable that the Governor should withdraw from the colony without any blame being imputable to him, and he could hardly be called on to retire without a pension being conferred on him. That was the case with the Governor here referred to, who was the brother of Sir Sidney Smith, and who had been in the office ten years, and could hardly be withdrawn from that office, in order to benefit the local interests of the colony, without some allowance being made him. He retired on the faith of that allowance being assigned on a productive fund; and when it was found unproductive, the Government could hardly be justified in refusing to make good the pension.

asked, whether he could not have been placed in some other colony?

said, that it could hardly be done when at the time of his retirement he was between sixty and sixty-five years of age.

objected, that the pension had been granted without the knowledge of the House, and upon a fund which, it must have been known, could not be productive. It was in fact, therefore, a pension on this country, and ought to have been included in the returns made to the House among other superannuations.

thought no case had been made out against this officer, who appeared to have been withdrawn from the colony for the advancement of its interest. He should support the Resolution.

.—I really believe that the hon. Member imagines we shall surrender our understandings with the same facility as we vote away the public money; for he takes it for granted that the Governor has been removed for the public advantage alone, and, therefore, is entitled to the pension. This case seems to show, that there is a secret power existing somewhere to charge everything on the quitrents coextensive with their amount. This incidental discussion will probably throw some light on the matter. It can be better examined in this way than by long set speeches; for it will give us the opportunity of examining into the proverbial corruption of the colonial administration, and show us the cause of that fondness with which the Government adheres to the Colonies. We ought to know, Sir, why the Colonial System, after all that has been said about it, is thus pursued. We ought to be informed what is the amount of these quitrents. But, above all, we have a right to know who has had the audacity to deal with these quitrents without the assent of Parliament. These quit-rents are public money. They are as much public money as the revenue of the Crown-lands, and ought in the same way to be accounted for. But then it is said that there is nothing public in this colony, for that there is no population in it. Indeed! There are at least all the elements of an expensive government. There is a Governor with a salary of 1,500l. a-year—there is a Chief Justice with 1,000l. a-year. Surely there can be no need of administering justice where there are no people to require it. But then, there is another officer, whose existence announces a high state of refinement in society—I mean an Attorney-general. Why, if there are no people, there can be no libels; and who can want an Attorney-general if there are no libels? I say, Sir, from these facts, it seems clear, that in this colony there is everything to constitute a flourishing country but people. But if there are no people, there can be little reason to pay a present, or to pension a late, Governor. I know nothing of this gentleman; his services may have been of the most meritorious kind; but I must ask again, who has had the audacity thus to deal with the public money, without the consent of Parliament.

said, he would answer the last question. It had always been the custom, at least for the last twenty years, for the Crown to take certain revenues in the colonies, and apply them in this manner. It had been done too with the knowledge of Parliament, and was as much constitutional as any act sanctioned by the executive and legislative governments.

denied the right of the Minister of the Crown to do this.

said, that no explanation had been given of the fact to which he had adverted—namely, of the existence of a surplus revenue unaccounted for. He thought the colony could bear its own expenses, and he should propose to reduce the vote to 20l.; and would move to take it away altogether, but that the forms of the House did not permit him to do so. In his opinion, no person in that House could go to his constituents and tell them he had done his duty, if he did not vote for this reduction.

said, that in 1826, the revenues of the colony were estimated at 9,694l,; and in 1828 they were estimated at 6,676l., so that the revenues had been greatly overrated.

said, that the point was not satisfactorily made out to him, and he should, therefore, move, that the vote be reduced by 3,800l.

said, that his right hon. and gallant friend proposed, that in future there should be a colonial budget, for the purpose of explaining the disbursements of the Colonial Estimates. If the present practice was wrong, his right hon. friend was not to blame for it, as it had existed from time immemorial. The House could not expect more than a new practice, conformable to its present feelings and wishes. His right hon. friend could not say, "I will compel the colonial legislatures to receive the reductions of the House of Commons," merely because the House of Commons thought that they ought to be made.

said, that he only wanted a full explanation on the subject, and he would be satisfied. Why could not the same pledge be given on this as on other votes?

said, that there must be some mistake either on his part or on that of the hon. Member; he understood that he had already given that pledge.

observed, that the Governor had ruled the colony so, that he had caused anything but harmony and satisfaction, and it was rather too bad to call on the country to give a man a pension because he was to be removed from the office that he had filled so mischievously.

said, that it was desirable to remove the Governor, and that it would have been cruel to leave him to starve.

rose and said, that he had attended with great anxiety to the course of this discussion, as he could not distinctly perceive the state of the fact on which this pension was made to depend. He wished to know what was the power of the House over the funds of the colonial assemblies. He thought that the House had no power over them directly. It had, however, a power over them indirectly, if it were so minded, for it had only to say that it would not provide for such and such expenses in the colonies, unless the colonies provided for such and such expenses in return. He had understood the Colonial Secretary to say, that all that had been done in this case was perfectly legitimate and proper. Now here was a pension granted by the Crown, which Parliament was called upon to pay. It was not charged upon the ordinary pension fund, under the ordinary limitations of the Act of Parliament. In order to evade these limitations, this pension was granted, charged in its inception on certain funds of the Crown, out of the control of Parliament, namely, on the colonial quitrents. His question, therefore, was this—what was the state of the quitrent fund when this pension was granted? Was it a productive fund or was it not? Was it real or ideal? Now to settle that question, the amount of it for two years previously to the grant of the pension ought to be stated. If it amounted to 500l. a-year, the Secretary of State who granted it stood acquitted: but if it never yielded 500 farthings, as he suspected, under what pretence could the Crown justify the fixing of the charge for the Governor's retiring pension on a non-existing, or at least on a non-productive fund?

said, that though he was not responsible for the grant of this pension, he would undertake to answer the question of the hon. and learned member for Knaresborough. The fund in question was, at the time to which the hon. and learned Member alluded, a productive fund. If the hon. and learned Member intended to ask him, whether at the time of granting the pension there was a surplus revenue above 500l., to that question he would say, "No." If the hon. and learned Member merely meant to ask him, whether there was a rational prospect at that time that the fund would be available for the payment of the pension, to that question he would as readily say "Yes." If that prospect had failed, he could not say why it had, because he was not at present in possession of the requisite information.

thought, that after the speech of the hon. member for Newcastle, the House ought to ascertain how far the Crown had a right to grant pensions upon hope. He proposed that this vote should be postponed till tomorrow, in order that the committee might have before it the account of these quitrent funds. It was a great shame that the Crown should grant pensions on hope, and then call upon the country to pay them in reality. At all events this grant ought to be reduced by the sum of 1,000l.

said, that as such was the opinion of his hon. friend, he would, out of deference to him, withdraw his Amendment.

Mr. Hume then proposed to reduce the grant by 1,000l. being the amount of pensions for the present and for the last year.—The Committee divided.

For the Amendment 78; Against it 126—Majority against it 48.

Resolution agreed to.

wanted to know what was the amount of the Customs collected in Newfoundland, stating the expenses of the collection, and the amount remitted to England.

replied, that the amount collected in 1828 was 15,126l.; the amount of salaries was 4,215l.—Vote agreed to.

said, that as he had a motion on this subject for tomorrow, he should not say anything on the subject that night.—Agreed to.

begged to ask whether the statement respecting the unhealthiness of that colony was correct?

said, that the reason for establishing the colony of Fernando Po was because it was a better situation for intercepting ships engaged in the Slavetrade, as it was more contiguous to the parts whence the slaves were fetched. This station also obviated another diffcuilty, as the conveyance of captured vessels from that neighbourhood to Sierra Leone was attended with inconvenience and danger. He was perfectly ready to admit that the recent reports of the health of that colony were extremely unfavourable, and he regretted to say that the health of the persons there had not been what could be wished for a very considerable time. He believed that infection had been, in some cases, brought from Sierra Leone.—Vote agreed to.

could not consent to the maintenance of establishments from which no national good could arise—nothing but a continued mortality—a scandalous waste of human life. All the forts on the Gold Coast ought to be given up; they cost the country a large sum, and many lives, for the profit of a few merchants, and without being of the least national utility.

admitted that it would be highly advantageous to abandon these establishments altogether if it were practicable so to do, but he feared that they must be maintained for a few years longer. The only authorities on the spot were the merchants, who acted as Justices of the Peace, under commissions from the Crown and the higher Magistrates, to whom they were subordinate, and who were appointed also by the Crown and paid. It would be presumed, he admitted, that some officers of a higher order were necessary.—Vote agreed to.

considered this vote highly objectionable, not alone upon the ground of economy—that ground he would not take up—but he would call upon the House to pronounce a vote of condemnation upon this proposition altogether, apart from considerations of economy; he objected to it, as the devotion of a large sum of the public money to the maintenance of an exclusive and a dominant Church, especially in a country circumstanced as Canada was, where one-seventh of the land was devoted to the maintenance of the Church Establishment, and where that exclusive and dominant Church gave great dissatisfaction. It was, in fact, given in evidence before the Canada Committee, that the Church Establishment there was a source of much discontent. The interests of religion in Canada would be, he contended, much more effectually promoted by removing all invidious distinctions respecting matters of religion. If the Government desired to see that, or any colony, happy or prosperous, it would put down monopoly, and prevent as far as it could all cause of jealousy. The noble Lord further added, that the Missionaries sent out from the Methodist connection were, he understood, highly efficient. He concluded by moving that the proposed vote be reduced to one half—namely, from 16,182l. to 8,091l.

objections were not grounded, as the noble Lord's had been, on the effect produced by this vote in the colonies, but upon grounds of economy. This vote had grown up gradually from 3,600l. in 1814, to 9,000l., 10,000l., and at last to 16,000l., so that, since 1815, a sum of 190,500l., had been voted to the Society for Propagating the Gospel. Neither was this all, for that Society had gained no less than 41,500l. by going about from parish to parish with the King's letter; thus making a sum of no less than 230,000l. since 1814. Then the expenses of the Society were great—a Secretary at 180l., and a clerk with 105l. What was more extraordinary, in 1824 Lord Bathurst wrote a letter to the Bishop of London, stating that there was a difficulty in finding proper persons to be sent out to Canada, and asked for his aid, and the Archbishop of Canterbury's aid, to find proper persons, recommending at the same time that the department should be attached to that of the Chaplain General. A Council of Assistance was accordingly formed; and who was the Secretary appointed, with a salary of 500l. a-year? Why, Mr. Hamilton, who was a Rector, and had several livings, and was Archdeacon of Calne. The hon. Member then went on to notice the statements made in the petition of Mr. Griffin against the proceedings of the Society, and said, if money were given at all, it would be better given directly than through the medium of an Ecclesiastical Board so unpopular as this had rendered itself in Canada.

defended the propriety of the grant on account of the inability of parties settling in a new country to support clergymen, wherefore it became the Government to provide religious instruction. The increase of the grants had been in proportion to that of the population. He was aware that the application of this vote caused dissatisfaction in the colony, and he quite agreed that the system of patronising an exclusive Church there was injurious, as it was calculated not only to excite discontent, but even to injure the Established Church. The system under the Act 31st George 3rd was defective in that respect, and the allotments for the church in Canada, which would never be productive—were, in point of fact, inadequate to their proposed end; they impeded the progress of cultivation, and were only effective in producing bad feelings in these provinces. He was ready to admit all that; still he thought a connection between the Church and State beneficial, as it made the former respectable, and strengthened the latter. In his view, however, that union should not be limited to any particular class or sect, but should be placed on a more extended basis. The present system had been, he admitted, particularly injurious in the Lower Province, where there was but 28,000 Protestants, while there were 400,000 Roman Catholics; and in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward's Island, where the Church of England population was but 20,000, while those belonging to the Church of Scotland amounted to 50,000. The result was, that the Presbyterians there were discontented as the Roman Catholics were discontented in Lower Canada. At the same time he believed that this discontent had been much exagge- rated. The grant, however, ought not to be withheld, as it would enable Government to provide religious instruction for people in remote situations; and he thought also that where the colonists themselves came forward with money for the building of places of worship and the support of clergymen, the Government should be enabled to assist them, and contribute its proportion. The Ecclesiastical Board was advantageous, inasmuch as it secured a proper selection of clergymen. He must add that he fully agreed with those hon. Members who said, that there ought to be no exclusive or monopolising system. It was his opinion, therefore, that some support ought in future to be given to the Dissenters; but for the present he hoped the vote might be agreed to in the form in which it then stood.

expressed great satisfaction at what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman; but, as the clergy reserves were admitted to be injurious, he asked why the sale of them to the Canada Company had been broken off? The connection between Church and State was in this instance not advantageous to the State, as the right hon. Gentleman said, but injurious, because the Church had been too strong for the Government. It would be better to take away all such grants, for the Church would not aid the Government if the latter presumed to share the money with other sects. That was proved by its intolerant conduct. Here the hon. Gentleman commented on the letter of Archdeacon Strahan, which had been declared a gross and scandalous libel by the House of Assembly in Upper Canada, and yet he was not prosecuted. In Upper Canada, 3,500l. was given to the Church of England, while the members of that persuasion bore but a small proportion to those of the other sects, who got nothing, and felt the contrast most severely. There were in that colony altogether 235 clergymen—117 Methodists, forty-five Baptists, fifteen Presbyterians, twenty-one Wesleyan Methodists, and but thirty-one of the Church of England. The Colonial Secretary admitted that it was an evil to give aid merely to one sect, but still wanted them to do so tonight. The hon. Member said a similar state of things existed in Nova Scotia, the population of which was 123,000. Of these there were—

while the whole of the members of the Church of England amounted but to 28,659. The people of Nova Scotia prayed too that this allowance might be withdrawn, of which in fact, not above 1,200Z. was distributed there, though the sum obtained was above 5,000l.; altogether, these grants were most profligate, and he would resist them to the utmost of his power. The hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, said that he would most cordially support the present vote of half what was originally proposed, and trusted that the other half would be taken away next year.

thought, that the accounts and numbers respecting the different sects ought to be correctly given. The Ecclesiastical Board he considered beneficial; and as to the Clergy reserves, an Act had been passed for their sale. He supported the original vote.

said, that no country in the world had made such a miserable provision for its established religion, as England in her colonies. He supported the grant, and recommended that liberal grants should be appropriated to the support of the English Church in all the colonies.

thought, on the contrary, that a country which devoted the sixth part of the soil for the support of the Church had acted most liberally. He was himself a Church-of-England-man, and though he had always supported this grant hitherto, yet he was now convinced that it did harm to the Church of England, which was dwindling away in Canada, and flourishing in the United States of America. He was glad to hear the Amendment proposed, therefore, which he would cordially support, being convinced, on the whole, that the grant did harm to the Church of England.

thought that no Government had any right to dictate the religion of its subjects, and therefore he should object to any measure which went to encourage a particular religion.

said, that money was never granted for building a church till the inhabitants of the district had bound them selves to raise two-thirds of the necessary sums.

applauded the sen- timents which had fallen from the right hon. Secretary of State for the Colonies. He wished for nothing more than that those liberal sentiments should be carried into effect. Almost every step we had hitherto taken in our interference with Canada had tended to alienate the people from this country; but he hoped, after what he had this night heard, that our future policy would have a different effect.

could not think that an expenditure of 16,000l. for such an object as this was an excessive vote. He should regret if the House relaxed in its liberality; and he thought the fact of 40,000l. having been collected in 1818, by his Majesty's letter, was a proof that the country was inclined to co-operate with the Society. At all events the change was too great to be brought about by an incidental discussion. The vote was destined to support a meritorious class of men, and thinking it not too much, he should support the original Motion.

objected to the grant being exclusively devoted to the Church of England, and thought the Presbyterian Clergy ought at least to have a share. The money ought, in his opinion, to be employed in spreading Christianity in Upper Canada. Nevertheless, as he un-stood that henceforth it was to be so appropriated, he should support the original Motion.

, in explanation, begged to observe, that the settlers in the woods of Canada were but too prone, from their situation and society, to indulge in habits of religion, bordering on what might be called superstition, He thought, therefore, that the labours of those who disseminated the principles of true religion could not be considered as wholly unnecessary to the wellbeing of the colony.

wished that the money should be applied to all the different sects in proportion to their numbers.

expressed his concurrence in the vote for the present year, but desired that it should be reduced as soon as possible.

Lord Howick attempted to address the Committee, but the cries of "Question," and other symptoms of impatience were so loud that the few observations he made were not audible.

declared, that the vote, although perfectly justifiable on the principle of supporting Christianity, when applied to encourage a Church which the people did not follow, was most objectionable.

The Committee then divided: For the Resolution 148; Against it 46—Majority 102.

On the next Resolution, "That a sum of 47,500l. be granted to pay for Presents to American Indians, and for the expenses of maintaining Liberated Africans at Sierra Leone"—

said, that the American States had determined to put an end to the system of employing the Indians as auxiliaries in war, and he hoped it was the intention of the Government to follow their example.

said, the Indians were not only very expensive, but very useless auxiliaries in modern warfare; and it was the determination of the Government to put an end to the whole system connected with employing them as soon as possible.

The Resolution agreed to and the House resumed.