presented a Petition from the inhabitants of the Parish of St. Paul, Dublin, against the Bill for the maintenance of Deserted Children (Ireland). The petitioners stated, that they lived in the poorer part of the city, where children were more likely to be deserted than in the squares and more rich and populous places; and they complained, that by the operation of the Bill now before Parliament, they should have to pay a portion of the burthen which ought to come upon richer parishes, and they prayed that all the parishes within the circular road should be assessed according to their means, for the maintenance of children deserted within those limits, and that the sums thus raised should form a common fund for the object of the Bill. The prayer of the petitioners he considered very reasonable, and he hoped that the attention of Ministers might be given to the subject.

said, that the complaint was well-founded; but the remedy which the petitioners prayed for would not have the effect they imagined. It would tend to make a sort of general foundling hospital in the city, and it was already seen that the experiment of a general foundling hospital had failed. It would be better for them to pray against the Bill altogether. No doubt it would be an important matter to many parishes to have the Bill passed, but the general operation of the Bill, particularly in that way which the petitioners viewed it, would be injurious.

said, that the Bill would be a great grievance to many parishes; but he did not think the remedy which the petitioners proposed would be impracticable. The subject was one which deserved the serious consideration of the House.

said, that the subject was one of great importance to Ireland, but unfortunately, owing to the state of business in the House, no opportunity was given for discussing that and many other subjects of great public interest, more particularly those connected with Ireland. However much a Member might be disposed to attend to the interests of his constituents, or of the country to which he belonged, such was the state of business in that House, that no opportunity was given, either to Government or to individual Members, to bring on the discussion of many matters of great interest. With respect to the Bill to which the petitioners referred, he would say, that no modification of it could cure the evils which it was calculated to produce. It would renew all the evils which had attended the foundling hospital system, and there was no objection which could have been urged to that system which might not with greater force be urged against the Bill. It would, no doubt, be a relief to some parishes, but it would be a most oppressive measure to others. The better way would be, to leave the matter as it stood. As long as there was an individual interest in preventing the evils for which the Bill meant to provide, the matter would be better attended to; but if a fund were provided in the way proposed by the Bill, it would introduce the system which had already been tried and failed. Looking at the Bill before the House in all its bearings, he was determined to give it his most decided opposition.

The Petition to be printed.

presented two Petitions, one from the Mayor and Corporation of Waterford, and the other from Kilkenny, against any increase in the Duty on Irish Spirits. Most of the objections which had been raised on this subject were removed by the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night on this subject, and he hoped that the Government, which had gone thus far, might be induced to go further, and give up the duty on stamps.

The Petitions to be printed.

presented a similar Petition from the county of Armagh, and though he admitted that much of the objection against the first proposition of the right hon. Gentleman was now removed by his modification of it, yet even small as was the addition he now proposed to make in the duty upon Irish spirits in common with those of England and of the West-Indies, he feared it would not answer the object in view of an increase of Revenue, at least as far as Ireland was concerned. It was well known that when the duties were high in Ireland, the illicit trade in spirits had been carried to an enormous extent, and tended greatly to demoralize the habits of the people; and he feared that even the proposed small addition to the duty would have the effect of renewing that trade to a considerable extent. The petitioners also complained of the proposed increase of stamp-duties in Ireland, and they stated, in which he fully concurred, that the increase of the duties on newspaper stamps and advertisements would not only not increase the revenue, but would tend greatly to diminish it, by putting an end to many papers now in circulation in Ireland. He did hope, therefore, that Government might be induced to give up a tax, which, without any advantage to the Revenue, (the only fair ground on which it could be proposed), would have the effect of destroying the property in newspapers to a considerable extent in Ireland.

The Petition to be printed.

presented a similar Petition from the parish of Trinity within, in the city of Waterford. The petitioners, he observed, also prayed against the duty on the growth of tobacco in Ireland, which took away employment from so many persons in that part of the country where it was most wanted. He would admit, that one great ground of objection was removed by the modification of the duty on spirits proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night; but he concurred with the hon. member for Armagh, that even the small additional duty proposed would have the effect of tending to reintroduce the demoralizing practice of illicit distillation. He joined with his hon. friend in hoping that Ministers might be obliged to give way even in this, and also to give up the increased duties on stamps. The imposition of any new tax on stamps of newspapers would have the effect of inflicting a serious injury on the Press of Ireland, which, in a country without a resident legislature, was now the only check on public men and measures.

The Petition to be printed.

presented a similar Petition from the inhabitants of the town of Youghall, in the county of Cork. He agreed that the necessity for the prayer of the petitioners against the duty on spirits was in great part removed by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night. At the same time, he agreed with the hon. members for Armagh and Clare, that it was not politic to have any increase of duty on spirits in Ireland, as it must operate to introduce illicit distillation. He had, within the last ten days, received accounts from Ireland, informing him, that even the prospect of an increased duty of 2d. per gallon on spirits had operated in promoting that illicit trade.

Petition to be printed.

presented a Petition from the Clergy of the Presbytery of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, complaining that British soldiers were obliged to pay homage to the superstitious and idolatrous ceremonies used in some of the Islands of the Mediterranean. The petitioners expressed their detestation of such ceremonies, and observed, that every one of the 658 Members of that House had sworn to the same effect, and that it was not quite consistent with that oath to sanction such a custom as had been introduced amongst our soldiers in those countries. The hon. and learned member for Clare had done himself great credit in supporting the prayer of a similar petition, which he had formerly presented, and he (Sir R. Inglis) was unwilling to say any thing of those ceremonies which might in any way wound the feelings of that hon. Member, or of any other who thought with him on that subject. At the same time he must say, that it was not justifiable to command men to be present at, and do homage to such ceremonies, who could not do so without a violation of their conscientious feelings.

said, that he supported the prayer of this petition as he had done that which the hon. Bart. formerly presented, though he owned he did not think it quite fair that the petitioners should impute idolatry where none existed. If, however, they were deficient in that spirit of Christian charity which admitted every man to act according to his own conscientious feelings, that should not hinder him from advocating the general principle,—that no man should be called upon to do that which was repugnant to those feelings. It was uncharitable to impute idolatry to parties who were not guilty of it, and who detested it as strongly as the petitioners or any other men. Those who professed the religion which he professed were not guilty of idolatry,—they adored only the living God. But whatever might be the opinions of some individuals on this subject, it would never alter that to which he adhered, and should adhere,—that every man should be left wholly free and unshackled in his religious worship, and should not be called upon to do any act which was contrary to his sincere and conscientious belief.

said, that he had not the honour of a seat in that House when the hon. Baronet formerly presented a petition on this subject, but if he had he would have supported its prayer, as he now did that of the petition before the House. When he himself was a petitioner to Parliament for the full enjoyment of religious liberty, he was anxious that the same privilege should be extended to all others; and in that House and out of it, he would always advocate the principle for which the petitioners contended,—that no man should be compelled to any act which was repugnant to his conscientious feelings.

The Petition to be printed.

presented a Petition from Sutton in the county of Wexford, against Tithes, and also against the Vestry Act. The hon. Member said, he would take that opportunity of giving notice, that in the first week of the next Session (should he have a seat in Parliament) he would bring forward the subject of the Vestry Act.

said, that when his hon. and learned friend, the member for Clare, mentioned the subject the other evening, he stated the case of a parish in which there were 2,500 Roman Catholics, and only twelve Protestants. He had heard many similar statements from other quarters, which would seem to imply that it was absurd to build churches in many parts of Ireland, as there were no Protestants to go to them when they were built. Now, against any such inference he must protest. There was no want of Protestants where churches were built for their accommodation. He would mention one instance of this. Some time ago an Irish gentleman, a friend of his, came into possession of an estate. In the parish in which it was situated there was no church, and he was told there were no Protestants to go to one if it were erected. Thinking that this was so, he had divine service performed in his house for his own family, and for any others who might choose to come. Very soon the attendance was so numerous, that he imagined, if church accommodation were provided, more would attend. He went to work, and at last succeeded in having a church erected. It was not long before it was so numerously attended, that he felt it necessary to have it enlarged, and at last the attendance was so great, that he stated his conviction, that if another church were erected, he should have that filled also. He (Mr. Trant) mentioned this fact as an answer to the allegations so frequently made, that no Protestants were to be found to attend churches if they were erected. His own conviction was, that where churches were provided there would be Protestants enough to attend them.

said, that his hon. friend had an advantage of him in what he had just stated. In those statements which he had felt it his duty to make as to the comparative number of Protestants and Catholics in any particular parish, he gave the name of the parish or place, so that if his statement were inaccurate, nothing could be more easy than to set him right; but his hon. friend had given his account anonymously, he did not say incorrectly, but certainly the same means did not exist of finding out its inaccuracy, should his hon. friend have been misinformed on the subject. For his own part, he did not object to the gentleman alluded to building churches, or endeavouring to get as many persons to attend them as he could. It was very natural for a man to endeavour to induce others, and he did not object to it if it were done fairly, to embrace the same religious opinions which he himself held,—but he doubted much whether obliging parties to build churches—he spoke now of Roman Catholics—was the best way to induce them to attend them: on the contrary, he thought the operation of that mode of converting would be just the other way. For his own part, he would say that his inclination to attend a church would not be greatly increased by being called upon to pay for its erection for the accommodation of others, and he was sure his hon. friend would be much of the same opinion under similar circumstances. For instance, he did not believe that his feeling towards the Roman Catholic religion would be greatly improved by an appeal made to his pocket, for the purpose of erecting a church for the accommodation of Roman Catholics. He did not mean to say that when churches were erected in Ireland, even in Catholic parishes, persons might not be got to attend them; for to every church there were some ten or twelve offices attached, with salaries annexed, and if parties were paid for attending, no doubt it was not to be expected that churches would be left empty; for instance, in the parish to which he alluded on a former evening, there were twelve Protestants—six of these were males,—so that if a new church were to be erected there, each of them might hold two offices.

had no disposition to conceal the name of the parish to which he alluded. It was the parish of Kilcullenbridge, in the county of Kildare. He repeated that his object in mentioning the circumstance was to shew that where churches were erected, there were Protestants to be found to attend them; and that there was no necessity to recruit them through the country, as some hon. Members seemed to believe.

Petition to be printed.

presented a Petition from a numerous body of individuals,—the market gardeners supplying the metropolis from Middlesex, Surrey, Essex, Kent, and Hertford, against the New Police, to which he should be anxious to call the attention of his right hon. friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, if he were in his place. The petitioners stated, that before the passing of the New Police Bill they were not liable to pay any watch-rate for land, but that now they were assessed for their land as well as houses, and were called upon to pay a rate of 8d. in the pound under the new Act; but, although the rate was only 8d. they had a much higher sum to pay; for the sums assessed upon the houses of parties who could not pay were charged upon those who could pay, and this greatly increased the amount of the rate. This was a subject to which he was anxious to call the attention of his right hon. friend, and he had waited several days for an opportunity of doing so, but his right hon. friend did not enter the House until after the time of presenting petitions had elapsed. He was anxious to learn whether it was intended to extend the system of police beyond its present limits.

said, that if the hon. Baronet knew the great pressure of business which occupied his hon. relation in the Home Department, he would not be surprised that he did not attend in his place at an earlier hour. With respect to the petitioners, he believed it would be found that the increase of rate was very little more than what it had been hitherto on houses. Farmers, he admitted, would have to pay a little more, but they themselves would admit, that under the operation of the Bill they had received increased protection. As to the extent of the police jurisdiction, it had been carried by the present Bill to all the parishes named in the former schedule, and it could not be extended further without an Order in Council. He did not believe it was the intention of Government to extend it beyond those limits. The number, instead of being 6,000, as had been stated, was not more than 3,000.

complained of the expense of the system: the parish in which he lived had been in the habit of paying 5,000l. for the watch-rate, and now it had to pay 17,000l. for the new police.

admitted that complaints had been made, but he thought they were unreasonable. There certainly was some little more expense, but there was much more security: formerly, many individuals kept private watchmen, whose services might now be dispensed with.

said, that there were complaints in almost every parish of the expense of the new police; and he believed that the old system was, in many instances, quite as good.

said, that one objection to the new system was, that land in the neighbourhood of the metropolis paid the rate, though its owners never required the attention of the police at all. If the system were extended, we should, by and by, have a military police throughout the country; the whole expense of which would fall on the land.

complained of the way in which parishes were rated under the New Police Act; particularly parishes at some distance from the metropolis, which derived little or no benefit from the police. He admitted that a force of the kind now established had been long wanted, and he did not complain of its military character, but it might be too expensive; at least he knew that several of his constituents in the neighbourhood of the metropolis were already alarmed at its cost.

[who had entered the House while Mr. Benett was speaking] said, that there certainly had been many complaints that the old system was inefficient; and with good reason, for there were parishes which had refused to subject themselves to the assessment which was necessary for the support of a watch; the consequence was, that in one parish there had been eighteen burglaries in the course of six weeks: this alarmed the inhabitants, and a voluntary subscription was entered into; but in the course of two months it fell to the ground; and all this time there was no provision for the nightly watch. The present system might be more expensive than the old one, but it was the greatest injustice that, by the refusal of some to provide a proper watch, those expenses should be heightened to others who were willing to pay for the protection of their property. If it were desirable to improve the system, the men must be disciplined for that purpose; but as to calling them a military force beyond that, it was absurd. Every order under which they acted had come to the knowledge of the public. The power which that House had at all times to call for the regulations made, was a sufficient protection against any military system being introduced. Considering that the number only amounted to 3,000 men, he thought that they had done as much as could possibly be expected. Of course the expense was considerable; but how was that to be avoided? Was the number of men too great? On the contrary, it was generally complained of as being too small. Was the salary too large? On the contrary, it was said that it was not sufficient to induce respectable men to offer themselves. For himself he thought that the salary was sufficient, and he should, therefore, be unwilling to raise it; still, however, the opposite opinion prevailed to a considerable extent. With respect to land in the neighbourhood of the metropolis having to pay the rate, he thought that was but just, for as it reaped all the advantages attendant on being situated near so large a city, what right had its owners to expect that they should be exonerated from the disadvantages? He saw no reason why a parish at a distance from the metropolis should be included in the police system; and he should be sorry to propose to the Privy Council to include any such parish, without first consulting the parish authorities, more particularly if they objected to it. He would not extend the system to parishes which did not form, as it were, part of the metropolis. In general, however, parishes had made applications to be included within the police districts; and certainly more made applications to be included than to be excluded. As far as his experience of the new system went, he had formed a highly favourable opinion of it. Twelve months had not yet elapsed since it was formed, and he did not expect that in so short a time it would have done so much. He had never anticipated that it would in that time have become so well acquainted with the class of people it was most desirous the police should be acquainted with, in order to watch them. He did not suppose that its discipline would in that period have become so perfect, or the men, who were all new to the employment, would in so short a time have become so well acquainted with the habits of the thieves of London, as to prevent their depredations. The police was daily improving, and three or four years would not elapse before the House, he was sure, would congratulate itself on having established the force. Gentlemen must not judge altogether from the streets through which they were accustomed to walk, but they must look at every part of the metropolis and its environs. That system could not be good which did not provide for the police of every part; for if the police of St. Giles's were neglected, the parish of St. George would suffer. The former system, which allowed each parish to take care of itself, was a bad one. In one parish the greatest care might be taken, but in another the police might be wholly neglected. The consequence would be, that the thieves would live in the outskirts of the well-watched parish, and commit their depredations in the other when they found an opportunity. Complaints were made of the police almost before it was formed. It was not adopted from any whim, it had been recommended by a committee nominated at his suggestion—that committee had made elaborate inquiries, and recommended the present police system. The moment it was tried, even before it was complete, some Gentlemen exclaimed against it, and wanted to return to the old system. He hoped the new system would be preserved, for his confidence in its success was strengthened every day. The improvement already effected was very great, and every day it became more manifest; and if Gentlemen would only watch its operations, and wait a reasonable time, he was persuaded that they would be as partial to it as he was.

was also of opinion that the present system was a great improvement on the old system. He knew no duty more imperative on every government, and none that, being well performed, was more the sign of a well-regulated State, than that of providing an efficient police. An efficient police required that it should be controlled by one head, so that every parish could not establish a system of its own. That was the case under the old system, to which he did not wish to see the country return. At the same time he was of opinion, that the expense of the police, which must be very different at different places, ought to be paid by local funds. Every parish, he thought, ought to pay the expense of its own police, and bear its own burthen of expense. So far did he carry this principle, that he did not approve even of the police magistrates being paid out the public purse, who ought, he thought, to be paid by a rate levied on the parishes that required their services. He liked the present system, because, though it was efficient, it was not a military system, and he hoped that it would supersede the military police that was now employed on several occasions. A force of this description was far more consonant to the principles of our Constitution than those bodies of military who at various places yet performed the functions of police. A military force was necessary in all large towns, to be had recourse to when occasion required it, but nobody could wish to see it employed unless in cases of urgent danger. With a good system of police he hoped to see the necessity for having recourse to the military done away, and that the police would perform all the functions of the military in taking care of towns.

thought he was justified in the view he took of its being the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to supersede all the ancient institutions of the country, by what he had said when he brought the subject under the notice of the House of Commons. The hon. Baronet then quoted a passage from Sir Robert Peel's speech on moving for leave to bring in the Police Bill, in which he stated that "the country had outgrown its institutions," to justify the assertions he had made. If there were one institution which more than another contributed to keep alive the spirit of liberty, it was that which entitled every man to share in the administration of justice, and called on him in turn to take his part in seeing that the laws were obeyed. He trusted that he should never see the system extended to all parts of the country. The right hon. Secretary had proposed to give the benefits of his plan to the City of London, but the Corporation had wisely resolved to keep their affairs in their own hands, and resist the introduction of the police into the City. He had never described the present police as a military body, but he objected to it that it was a large organized force, which might be increased to a great extent—the funds for paying which were not under the control of Parliament, and which was entirely moved by the will of the Secretary of State. The Government was concentrating in its own hands the power of local magistrates, and superseding all constables and other officers elected by the people. He admitted that the present police had several advantages over the old system, but he did not like it because it was under the control of the Government. He hoped that the Corporation of the City of London, which in former times had defended its own liberties and the liberties of the kingdom against an arbitrary Monarch, would not now surrender them into the hands of a Secretary of State.

wished to observe that the right hon. Secretary had never offered to impose the police on the City of London, but the police institutions of the City had been examined, and they were found to be imperfect, as well as those at the west end. These imperfections, however, were left to be removed by the Corporation, and the subject had been under its consideration for three or four months. The result, he believed, would be, that the City would adopt a system like that carried into execution for Westminster. There had been, it was true, some opposition to the measure in the City, and he believed the oppositionists had communicated with his hon. friend, the member for Cornwall. According to the calculations which had been laid before the Corporation, the present system of watching the City cost about 36,000l. per year, and it was calculated that the new system would not cost more than 30,000l., so that there would be a saving of 6,000l. a year, and the City would have an efficient day police of 100 men. He believed, the principal reason why there was an opposition to the new plan in the City, was that many of the citizens liked their old watchmen. They were accustomed to see an old fellow go his rounds, his face was familiar to them, so was his voice; they liked to hear him call out the hour, and they therefore did not wish to part with their old friends. He had recommended the Lord Mayor to summon all the City watchmen to the Guildhall, and there have a review of them. He thought that would be an effectual way of showing their inefficiency. Nobody was better able to speak of the behaviour of the new police than the magistrates who were present at the Old Bailey. He had been there himself, and he noticed a marked improvement in the new police as compared with the old. They gave their evidence clearly and distinctly, and behaved so as to deserve to be held in the highest honour. The difference between the present police and the old watchmen was perceived in that court to be as great as possible, and all to the advantage of the new police. The conduct of the men was in general perfectly correct. As for its being a military force, the City Marshals and the Marshals'-men, with their regimentals, were a far more military looking body than the new police of the right hon. Secretary. He hoped soon to be able to bring forward a bill for establishing such a new police in the city.

begged to be allowed to explain. He was never more surprised, than to find a debate of this kind brought on without any intimation having been given, or any notice even that a petition was to be presented; and not merely a debate, but an attack on him. The hon. Baronet came down with scraps of his former speeches, and endeavoured to prove that he wished to change the institutions of the country. The hon. Baronet said he was glad that the City of London had resisted the Secretary of State, as it had formerly resisted an arbitrary Sovereign, and had escaped the control of the new police. The fact was, that he had told the City that he would not concern himself in any way with its police, except by giving it all the documents and papers connected with the Westminster police, which could be of service to the City in forming an improved police. He never had attempted to interfere with the City; he had no desire to control the City of London, and wished that its police should be improved under its own municipal authorities, and not under the authority of the Secretary of State. He did say that the country had outgrown its institutions; but he applied that remark only to its police institutions. If the hon. Baronet thought that there should be no other institutions now than those that existed in the time of Alfred, he was much mistaken. The owners of property now would complain loud enough, if, under the present circumstances of the country, there was no other justice than that which was insti- tuted when Alfred reigned. The hon. Baronet's respect for antiquity carried him too far when he found nothing to admire but the institutions that were framed 600 or 700 years ago. He hoped every populous place would provide itself with a police, but he by no means wished that the police of every town should be under the control of the Secretary of State. There was no other effectual way of checking crime than that of having a good police. To show that he did not wish to control the police, that he did not want any patronage from it, he would mention that he had not made one single appointment, but had left all the appointments in the hands of the Commissioners, making them responsible for the persons they recommended. The present system was a great deal better than the old one, under which the Parochial Authorities made a great number of very improper appointments without being either efficient, active or united.

complained of the police because they would not make the parish Authorities acquainted with the disposition of their force within the parish. He knew that this had occurred in Mary-le-bone. The vestry had requested to be informed how the police force was disposed of in the parish, and the information was refused.

defended the Police for not complying with the vestry's request. The Vestry wanted to know the beat of every man in the district, which the Police very properly refused to tell.

thought the Police very good, and that it had answered very well. He begged his hon. friend, the worthy Alderman, would inform him when he meant to have the review of the City watchmen, as he would certainly attend. He heard the constitutional jealousy expressed by his hon. friend, the member for Cornwall, with much pleasure, but he could assure him, that on the present occasion it was thrown away.

highly approved of the Police, and thought that it was a great advantage that it had a military character. It would be, in his opinion, a great benefit that 3,000 or 4,000 men could be assembled on any occasion accustomed to the manners of the people. The military, when called out, executed that duty very well, but he thought it would be better executed by a police. The readi- ness with which a large civil force could be called into action was, in his opinion, one of the great advantages of the change.

thought the present system a decided improvement, and well calculated to protect the property and lives of the people both by day and by night.

explained, that he had read the extract from the right hon. Baronet's speech to shew in conjunction with his conduct, that there was sufficient ground to be alarmed at his proceedings. His objection to the new system was, though he admitted its efficiency, that it gave a new and very extensive power to the Secretary of State.

wished to state, that he himself was no more capable of managing a police thirty miles from London than of regulating the police of Dublin or Edinburgh. He certainly wished that all the large towns should establish a police, but he did not wish that to be placed under the control of the Secretary of State. He had enough to do without looking after such details. What he wished to see extended was, the plan adopted at Manchester. In that town there was an excellent police, but it was entirely under the control of the local authorities.

was glad to hear that declaration of the right hon. Baronet, and should the police be confined to the metropolis, many of his objections to it would be obviated.

, in moving that the Petition be printed, explained that he had not anticipated any debate on presenting the Petition, and had not, therefore, thought it necessary to inform the right hon. Secretary that he meant to present it. The Petitioners said not one word about the police of the Metropolis. What they complained of, and which he thought a fair ground of complaint, was, that the land they held or used had not before been subject to any charge for police. The petitioners were not among those persons mentioned by the hon. Baronet, who desired to be included within the Metropolis Police; but they said nothing in their Petition about the military character of the police, nor did they allude to any topic which could excite a debate.

had only protested against entering into a general discussion on such a subject without any notice, in presenting a Petition.

The Petition to be printed.

felt himself obliged to call the attention of the House to the State of the Public Business, as he was at present deeply interested in the subject. It was necessary to make some alteration in the mode of proceeding, and come to some determination as to the time at which public business should begin, or abandon it altogether. At present it was so deferred, that attention to it was precluded. At that late period of the Session, something ought to be done, or the inconvenience to the public would be very great. He should beg leave, therefore, to submit to the House, in the existing state of the public business, that it would be expedient, for the present Session, and only for the present Session, that the House should come to an understanding, that public business should commence at a definite hour. He would say, that on every day except Wednesday, public business ought to begin at half-past five o'clock. For private business, and for the presenting of petitions, there would then be an hour and a half every day. The petitions, too, might be presented after the public business was done. Gentlemen who were concerned in petitions, when they were of a doubtful nature, would greatly facilitate the business of the House if they would not excite debates on them. He would not move any formal Resolution on the subject, but he was anxious to collect the general sense of the House on the question, whether it would not be desirable to make a temporary arrangement—and to be understood only as a temporary arrangement—that the public business should begin every evening at half-past five o'clock? He did not wish that it should take effect on the present day, but that in future, business should begin at that time.

had taken the liberty, on a former occasion, of calling the attention of the House to the embarrassment which had grown up in its proceedings, and to observe, that if no change were made in the form of those proceedings, it would be impossible for the House efficiently to transact the business of the country. The evils, which were now so great, had rapidly increased within a few years. In former years there was a regulation, not formally made, but tacitly acceded to, according to which former Speakers, and, he believed, even the present Speaker, called forward the public business at a certain hour, it being understood that if a discussion should take place on presenting any petition, it should not be interrupted, but that, after a certain time, no new matter but public business should be brought forward. On three or four occasions that regulation had been departed from. When petitions were presented on subjects of importance, on which it was necessary to gather the public sentiments, then an exception was admitted, and the public business did not begin so soon. That was the case when the Property-tax, when the Orders in Council, and when the question for the renewal of the East India Company's Charter, were under discussion. During this Session the evil to which he had alluded—and evil he must call it—had grown to such a height, as to be alarming. It prevented all public business, not merely from being satisfactorily discussed, but from being discussed at all. It was not that great public questions had not a fair chance to obtain discussion, they had no chance at all. Petitions were presented and discussed from individuals, or relating to subjects that only interested the individuals who presented them, and had little or no relation to any great public question; the consequence was, that though they had said a great deal, and sat late, they had done very little business. The House had sat, on an average, from forty-five to fifty hours every week, and as Wednesday was not to be included, these hours were to be divided amongst four nights, making eleven or twelve hours the House had sat every night. But though it had sat so long, he could not say that it had done much business. When they came to debate questions of great public importance, of universal interest, the hour was so late that the attention of Gentlemen could not be kept awake, and sometimes they could not be even kept physically awake, so that such questions were discussed by minds jaded and fatigued, and little able to discuss them with that attention which ought to mark the character of a deliberative assembly. He agreed, therefore, with the right hon. Gentleman, that the House should for this Session fix some hour at which the public business should commence. He had formed a plan for the future management of business, but he would not at that late period of the Session, enter into it—he would only say, that he cordially approved of the recommendation of the right hon. Gentleman.

had intended to ask the right hon. Baronet a question connected with the subject he had brought before the House. But after the observations he had heard, he must say, that he considered the presenting petitions one of the most important parts of the business of the House. By petitions they were able to learn what were the feelings of their constituents, and to obtain more practical information than by any other means. He was not prepared to say that the House ought to give over receiving petitions at a certain time, in order to enter into what was called a grand debate. He hoped, if that were the case, however, that business would not be postponed till two or three o'clock in the morning, when a great quantity was transacted without being investigated. He would recommend that the private business should be postponed till after the public business was transacted, or till after midnight [no, no]. Then Gentlemen who were anxious to attend private business, might do so without impeding the public business.

approved of the recommendation of the right hon. Gentleman; but he believed that even if that were carried into effect, the business was so retarded, that he was afraid, however hard it might be on the Speaker, and on his Majesty's Ministers, that the House would have to recur to a former practice, and meet at twelve o'clock every day.

suggested, that it would expedite business if more bills originated in the House of Lords. Out of sixty-three bills last year only one had been brought in there, whereas eighteen might have been brought in.

observed, that he understood it to be the wish of the House, that, after Thursday next, the Speaker should call on public business at half-past five every day.

said, that if any private matter were under discussion at half-past five, it ought to be allowed to be concluded.

assented to this proposal.

presented a Petition from Frome, praying means of Emigration for certain Paupers who were willing to leave the country. He could not allow that opportunity to pass, notwithstanding what had been said about making speeches on presenting petitions, without saying a few words on the subject to which the petition related. The petition stated, that of 14,000 persons in the parish, one-third habitually or casually received relief, and able-bodied workmen were not able to find employment. It appeared by the petition that the parish allowance was so small that the people could hardly subsist, and that the majority of them would gladly emigrate to our colonies. The petition further stated, that if the parish could borrow money, to be paid back by instalments, for the purpose of carrying the paupers away, that expedient would be most gladly had recourse to. A bill to enable parishes to do that he had introduced into the House, but the state of public business had been such, that he had been unable to get it discussed. If that measure were passed, a number of individuals would go to our colonies who now went to America, and were lost to this country, besides those whom parishes would send from destitution and idleness here, to plenty and industry in our colonies. He would not occupy the House with noticing all the applications he had received on the subject of this bill, and all the letters he had received testifying to the propriety of the scheme. It gave him great pleasure, however, to find, that it met the approbation of men of science, as well as of practical men engaged in the management of the poor. With the permission of the House he would read the opinions of one or two eminent men which had been addressed to him. [The right hon. Gentleman accordingly read an extract of a letter from Mr. Tooke, the author of a work on Prices; from Mr. Malthus, author of the "Essay on Population," and Mr. Hodges, a magistrate of Kent, expressing their approbation of the right hon. Gentleman's letters on the "Causes and Cure of Pauperism." He would not enter further into the subject, as he knew it was not agreeable to the House; he would only say, that in his opinion, little benefit would be conferred on the poor by the remission of taxes, and he believed that they would not be effectually relieved till some comprehensive scheme was adopted to remove from our land the superabundance of labour.

. was of opinion, that our people would have found employment enough at home if it had not been for the Free Trade system, of which the right hon. Gentleman was an admirer.

complimented Mr. Wilmot Horton on the great attention he had paid to this ungrateful subject. He had himself been an unworthy labourer in the same field, and had striven to lighten the load of poverty and misery. Something more might yet be done, he thought, by remedying the abuses which had crept into the Poor-laws. Great improvements had already been made by committees of that House inquiring into the subject, and he had no doubt that still greater improvements might be effected by the same means.

thought, that this was one of the most important subjects that could occupy the attention of the Legislature, and he concurred with the last speaker that much might be done by improving the administration of the Poor-laws, particularly if that were combined with some scheme like that of the hon. member for Newcastle. He conceived that there was but one radical cure—that of providing the poor with means to emigrate, taking care, by a wiser administration of the Poor-laws than at present, to prevent the subsequent increase of paupers: emigration would alike benefit the mother country and the colonies. Taking the whole world into consideration it might be doubted if the population had ever much varied; and while the population had in latter times increased in Europe, in Asia it had decreased. At the same time it was very beneficial to that part of the world which was at any particular time too fully peopled, to find a vent for its population; and he was to be looked on as a benefactor to mankind, who shewed them how they might more equally spread themselves over their heritage. At present families might go to Canada from this country at as small a cost as from Boston; but the great difficulty was in giving parishes the power of burthening themselves with debts, in order to obtain a great present relief. This was, he thought, a proper subject for the Government to take in hand, and he did not doubt, if it were to do that, but some effectual means of relief might be devised.

begged to return his thanks to the hon. member for Newcastle for the pains he had taken with this subject; but at the same time he was of opinion, that it was one that could only be successfully prosecuted by the Government. He was also of opinion, that the system of emigration, and an improved system of Poor-laws, should go hand in hand.

also thought that his right hon. friend deserved great praise for his exertions. He would recommend him not to tie the House down to the details of his plan, and he would probably find many Members who would agree with him in principle. It was his opinion that a great advantage would result from encouraging capitalists to settle in the colonies. They would have both motives and means to take labourers with them, and would carry off some of our superfluous hands, without putting the parishes to an expense, from the effects of which they might never relieve themselves.

, on moving that the petition be laid on the Table, said, that it was a mistake to suppose that his plan would entail a permanent burthen on parishes. The object he had in view might be effected by three years purchase, if he might use that phrase, of the existing poor-rates. The debt already existed in the claims of the paupers on the parish; and his plan, instead of augmenting that debt, would diminish it. He admitted that the subject required much consideration before any legislative measures were adopted, and he was only anxious to get the House to take the subject into consideration, being sure that none would have a more permanent influence on the welfare of the country.

wished to observe, that if the right hon. Gentleman's estimate were correct, if three years of the present rate would pay all the expenses of emigration, then certainly the parishes might find means to carry the plan into effect. He was glad to hear what fell from the right hon. Gentleman, though he was apprehensive that he laboured under a mistake in supposing that middle-men or capitalists, would be advantageous to our colonies. They must be speculators in land, and would do injury to the welfare of the people. Already they had been an impediment in the way of Government settling the colonies. Giving the right hon. Gentleman credit for the best intentions, he was apprehensive that, were his wishes carried into effect, much jobbing would be the consequence. In Canada, in Prince Edward's Island, and other colonies, where middle-men were established, they were the bane of those settlements. They were like dogs in the manger; they possessed land which they could not use themselves, and would not allow other people to use. It would be far better for the Government to open an office in the colonies, and transfer at once to the settlers the spots they were permanently to occupy.

said, that the hon. Member had mistaken the suggestion of his right hon. friend, which was neither more nor less than to encourage capitalists to settle in the colonies, who would necessarily carry labourers with them, or invite them to follow. Already that system had been acted on, and it was well known that for several years past from 20 to 30,000 persons had emigrated annually, without any expense to the public. Those persons who emigrated with capital formed the middle class in the colonies, and provided employment for the labourers. His right hon. friend's plan was confined to relieving those who were in misery at home, but they ought not to be landed in the colonies in a state of destitution; and it was of great importance, therefore, that capitalists should be on the spot, or prepared to go thither, and find the labourers employment on their arrival.

Petition to be printed.

rose to bring forward his Motion regarding Portugal, and commenced by stating his reasons for having hitherto postponed it. He had been very desirous to introduce it at an early period of the Session; but he had, in the first instance, given way to the hon. member for Shaftesbury, who submitted a general question on the state of the nation; and he had subsequently been induced to delay it still further, owing to the absence of the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department. The result had been not only disadvantageous personally to himself, but of that he would say nothing, but also disadvantageous to the cause he advocated. It had been his intention originally to move for the appointment of a Select Committee, but he had necessarily changed it to a motion for Papers; and one advantage of this course would be, that it would render it less necessary for him to trespass long on the patience of the House. He was well aware of the humble situation he occupied in it, and if he were compelled to include in his observations matter that might more properly have been offered to a Select Committee, he hoped, under the circumstances, to be excused, and that due allowance would be made for the difficulties under which he laboured. He only hoped that the same indulgence would be extended to him which was ordinarily shown to other Members equally inexperienced. Our commercial relations with Portugal were at present regulated by two treaties—namely, the treaty known by the name of the Methuen Treaty, concluded in 1703; and the last commercial treaty, concluded at the Brazils in 1810. The main object of the Methuen Treaty was to regulate the interchange of two commodities between the two countries; viz. the wines of Portugal, and the woollens of England. The conditions, however, were very unequal; for while it was provided on the one hand that the woollens of England should not be prohibited in Portugal, without specifying the rate of duty at which they should be admitted, it was provided on the other, not only that the wines of Portugal should not be prohibited in England, but that they should be admitted at a rate of duty a third less than the wines of France. The Treaty of 1810 was of a more detailed and extended nature. By that Treaty it was provided that fifteen percent should be the maximum duty imposed on the importation of such British commodities as were admitted into Portugal. Since the year 1703 different governments in this country had had it very much at heart to get rid of the Methuen Treaty, and had even taken preliminary steps for that purpose; but some accident or other had always intervened, and prevented the attainment of the object. In 1810, when our last commercial treaty with Portugal was concluded at the Brazils, when this country, as was well known, was in close alliance with Portugal, the Methuen Treaty of course came under consideration; and although it was determined that it should be continued, yet that determination was accompanied by a reference to a subsequent revision. By the Treaty of 1810 it was declared, "that the stipulations of the former Treaty of Commerce between England and Portugal, for admitting the wines of Portugal into England on the one hand, and the woollens of England into Portugal on the other, should, for the present, remain unaltered." It was clear by this provision, that the Methuen Treaty was to remain unaltered only "for the present;" that was, only to the end of the fifteen years for which the Treaty of 1810 was positively to run, and then to continue only as much longer as both the contracting parties might think proper; it being evidently competent to either party, at the expiration of the fifteen years, to claim a revision of the Methuen Treaty, and to give notice that it should be either partially or altogether suspended. It had been competent, therefore, for this country, ever since the year 1825, to require a revision of our commercial regulations with Portugal. No doubt such a requisition must be preceded by some preliminary measure on our part. What that ought to be he would not touch upon, as it was not necessary to his immediate object; and he hoped, also, that no hon. Member would prolong or perplex the discussion, by any allusion to a subject which had already been so amply discussed. There was no person more disposed than himself to respect that prerogative of the Crown, by which it was entitled to enter into and conclude such treaties with foreign States as should be thought fit and reasonable by its responsible advisers. The initiative in such negotiations must always remain with his Majesty's Government. But, on the other hand, it was always competent to Parliament, which was to provide for the execution of treaties, to revise and judge of their stipulations at any future period. The circumstances under which the Methuen Treaty was concluded, were very different from those of the present time. In the year 1703, the animosity against France, and the apprehensions of her designs, were at the highest point in this country. In Portugal there was, on the contrary, a party strongly attached to France; and even the King of that country long wavered before he would consent to the alliance with this country, which was concluded by Mr. Methuen at the same time that he concluded the Commercial Treaty. Indeed, the only thing that could be said in favour of the Commercial Treaty was, that it served to bribe the government of Portugal into the Treaty of Alliance. It was indeed contended, that the Treaty would open the Brazilian markets to our woollens; but if that apology were then tenable, it would not apply now, when the Brazils were open to us, without going through Portugal. But the faults of that Treaty were seen at the time. Mr. Methuen's conduct in that affair was spoken of by writers of authority, though of very opposite opinions, Swift and Burnet for instance, in terms of great disparagement, which might be considered as well merited, considering the treaty which Mr. Methuen was employed to ratify, and which it was the misfortune of the House to have to take under consideration. The effect of that Treaty at first, was only permanently to destroy the trade with France, which the war had then interrupted. It was reserved however for the Marquis of Pombal to perceive the full consequences of the Methuen Treaty, and in 1706 that minister created one of the most extraordinary monopolies that ever distressed a State, or disgraced a government; and that monopoly, strange to say, had existed from that time to the present. The Wine Company of Oporto vied with the Inquisition in the powers they possessed, and the use they made of them. This monopoly, so oppressive to Portugal, so noxious to England, so opposed to repeated treaties and solemn engagements, the powers of which were more suited to the General of an invading army than to a commercial Company—this monopoly, supported by the Methuen Treaty, and, through that, at the expense of the British people, had been allowed to continue unchecked. He knew no other instance of two countries originally concerting together for mutual advantage, the effect of which had been so great an amount of injury to one of them. He proposed, first, to give a brief outline of the powers of this Company; next, to show what its bearings were on existing treaties between Great Britain and Portugal; and thirdly, what its practical effects were on the commerce of this country, both as respected the consumer and general dealer with Portugal. Every person knew for how long a time the community of this country had been compelled to injure their health by the use of a certain repulsive liquor, mixed with brandy and drugs, denominated Port-wine; but it was not every person who knew how that had happened, and that was a point which he intended to explain. For certain alleged objects, the nature of which was well understood by the minister of Portugal, the Oporto Wine Company was endowed with the most extraordinary powers. It was, indeed, an Imperium in imperio. It was a court of privy council, and possessed judicial, executive, and legislative authority. [The hon. Member here read an article from the constitution of the Company, by which it appeared, that the Company was to have immediate access to the Royal person; that all its acts were to have the same authority as if proceeding directly from the King; that it was to be independent of all tribunals, and to have a Judge Conservator of its own, from whose decision there was no appeal.] The hon. Member stated, too, that this Company carried its decrees against smuggling into effect by a military commission, and that 265 persons had, in a very short space of time, suffered exile or death, with the confiscation of their property, in consequence of the decrees of the Company's court. All these circumstances had some bearing or other on British interests. By the Treaty of 1654, which was the great charter of British rights and privileges in Portugal, the right was conceded to the British of having a Judge Conservator of their own, from whom there should be no appeal but to a committee of senators. But the Wine Company assumed authority to decide with respect to British property, and that, too, without any appeal whatever. Its Judge Conservator superseded the powers of the British Judge Conservator, and dealt with the rights of British subjects as it suited the interest of the Oporto Wine Company. Soon after the formation of the Company, so injurious were its effects found to be on British rights and privileges in Portugal, that the Lords of Trade in this country drew up a report on the subject. As it was his intention to move for this, among other papers, he would read to the House only a few lines from it. [The hon. Member read an extract from the report, complaining of the unlimited powers of the Company over-riding the decrees of the British Judge Conservator, stopping British subjects from recovering their debts, obliging them to submit to its decisions in cases of their having any claims on bankrupt property, and forming altogether the complete and constant violation of the privileges to which, by Treaty British subjects were to be entitled in Portugal.] By the Treaty of 1654, which he had just now quoted, the British were promised generally security for their property, but expressly for their dwellings and warehouses. Yet the Company never scrupled to seize whatever dwellings or warehouses belonging to the British they thought proper. It was also provided by treaties that the British should be unrestrained in the commerce by any monopoly, or affected by fixed prices, and have liberty to sell or export whatever goods they chose. But this Company allowed no wine to be exported but what came from their own district, limited the quantity, fixed the price, and determined the quality. They also had the exclusive monopoly—which was every thing in a wine country—of the distillation of brandy, and the importation of foreign brandy; and all their privileges were supported by severe penalties against all offenders. [The hon. Member read another extract from the memorial of the Lords of Trade, describing the privileges of the Wine Company as oppressive violations of British rights and privileges, and the Company as having for its object, to exclude the British factory from any commerce or concern with the wine trade.] Notwithstanding the able and conclusive report which he had just quoted, the grievances of the British remained almost without hope of redress, until the Treaty of 1810 came to be negociated, in which provisions were to be expressly framed for their removal. In order to facilitate that object, his Majesty's Government in this country applied to the British merchants at Oporto to dissolve the factory they had there established, which was a sort of recognized corporation, framed for the superintendence of British interests against the encroachments of the Company. The merchants consented to dissolve the factory. An arrangement was at the same time made to repeal the English Navigation Laws in favour of Portugal, and in return it was provided, by the 8th article of the Treaty of 1810, that the British should not be restrained in their commerce, injured by monopolies, or in any way interfered with in buying and selling, or restricted in their dealings to any company or body whatever. By the 25th Article of that Treaty, his Britannic Majesty waived his right to create corporate bodies of merchants or factories in Portugal, provided that the trade of his subjects should not be restrained by any monopoly or commercial company whatsoever. Such were the provisions introduced into the Treaty for the redress of injuries of so long a standing. The Treaty being concluded, the English factory dis- solved, and the Navigation Laws repealed in favour of Portugal, what did the Portuguese government do?—Notify that the Oporto Wine Company was dissolved, or its powers restrained? No such thing. But the government notified its intention not to carry into effect the provision of the 8th Article of the Treaty, or to dissolve, restrain, or in any way interfere with the Wine Company. Remonstrances were sent out to the Secretary of State at Lisbon, who referred the case to the Court of Brazil; but it was some time before the reasons of so extraordinary a proceeding on the part of the Portuguese came to light. It was thought by some that the Court had touched something better than the Company's Wine, but so scandalous an aspersion against an illustrious family could not surely be true. It was alleged by the Portuguese government, that the Wine Company was not mentioned by name in the Treaty, and moreover, that whatever might be the provisions of the Treaty, it would be repugnant to the feelings of the Portuguese Monarch to effect the extinction of that Company at the request of a foreign Power. The late Mr. Canning, under whose auspices the Treaty had been concluded, brought the question before that House, and the government of the day sent out Lord Strangford to the Court of Brazil, where that Nobleman presented a spirited memorial to the Emperor, describing the conduct of Portugal as a positive breach of faith, and stating it to be the determination of the Prince Regent not to suffer treaties to be violated with impunity. The memorial added, that it was the determination of his Majesty to propose measures to Parliament for encouraging the importation into Great Britain of other wines than the Portuguese, unless the internal trade in wine were set free, and the English merchants allowed to buy when and where they pleased before the next vintage. That memorial was one of the documents he meant to move for. What answer was given to it he did not know; but the fact was, the Company continued to exercise the same oppressive powers up to the present moment. He should here close the first part of his case, and he would now endeavour to show what the practical effects were which the Wine Company produced on the British community. That Company had drawn a line of demarcation round a small district in the neighbourhood of Oporto, of some leagues in extent, and containing different soils. Instead of allowing the British to buy their wine where they pleased, the Company only permitted to be exported what wines grew in their district, some of which it was notorious, were of a very inferior description, while others were of the first-rate quality. But the British community suffered most from that power which the Company possessed, of determining the quality, quantity, and price of the wines they permitted to be exported. The Company divided the wine into two classes;—the first class was called approvada, signifying such wine as was intended for exportation to England, where, he believed, it met with little approval; and the second was styled separada, which was kept apart for the home market or for exportation to the Brazils. If a wine-grower brought good wine to the market, the Company bought it at what price they pleased, and then mixed it with their own bad wine. It was to this system of adulteration that he wished to call the attention of the House. The Company were always in the habit of supplying the waste of their cellars, which must be considerable, by means of adulteration: one fact would show to what extent adulteration was carried. On one occasion 135 pipes of wine, shipped for the island of Guernsey, on reaching the port of London, after passing through that island, were multiplied into 2,545 pipes. The wine thus made in Guernsey was appropriately called Guernsey Port. The whole of the difference he had mentioned was made up by adulteration with French wines and brandy. White wines, such as used to be drunk in this country were almost unknown, and what we had were made by a class of persons who were described under the name of wine-brewers. Many hon. Members might probably recollect a passage in the Spectator in which these persons are described, and in which an account is given of their chemical operations, their working under ground, and their preparing under the streets of London the adulterated products of France, to the great annoyance of his Majesty's subjects, and to the great detriment of their health. Dr. Henderson, in his able and scientific work on wines, appears to think that this statement is, to a great extent, applicable to the present time; for he says that a great quantity of the wine introduced into this country is adulterated before it is used, and is imported only to be adulterated.

With a view to show the immense importation of this wine, as contrasted with other descriptions of wine, he would refer to the returns made for two years; namely, 1822 and 1823. In the course of those two years it appeared from the returns that the average importation of Cape wine was more than double the importation of French wine and Rhenish wine during the same period; and that for every bottle of French and Rhenish wine which was consumed in the country there were from two to three bottles of this artificial wine consumed. There could be no doubt that the consumption of artificial wine in this country was even far greater than he had stated. In the two years 1822 and 1823, the importation was, of Cape wine 3,259 tuns, of French and Rhenish wine 1,553, making an excess in the importation of Cape wine of 1,706 tuns. In the year 1825 the duty on French wine was reduced, but still the importation of Cape wine exceeded that of French wine. The annual average importation of French wine for nine years amounted to 1,364 pipes, and the average importation of Cape wine in the same period was 2 434 pipes. Before he quitted this subject, he would mention one or two facts with regard to the proceedings of the Oporto Wine Company. The first was, that the wines of Portugal had never been reduced in price in the foreign markets, in relative proportion to other wines, since the formation of this Company; and the next was, that this Company having enjoyed, in the first instance, the exclusive monopoly of the trade to the Brazils, when that trade was thrown open, its exports of wine to that country fell one-fourth below what had been, and they never since had exceeded that amount. This Company shipped last year, to all the world, except to us, and to the Brazils, only 1,230 pipes; and to us alone it shipped 17,157 pipes. In considering this case as connected with the commerce of the country, he could not avoid reverting to what had been the line of policy pursued by our Government for a long period. It was important in this place to advert to those restrictions which had been maintained for many years in this country upon the importation of French wine under the treaty of this country with Portugal. At a period long antecedent to that Treaty, there was reason to believe that the wines of France formed a common beverage in England. We read of them in the old chronicles as selling at no higher price than 6d. or 8d. per gallon. We read in those chronicles, too, of large fleets of 200 sail going out to Bordeaux for wine. We read of 400 pipes of wine being consumed in the reign of Henry 4th, on the enthroning of an Archbishop; and we read of the Earl of Shrewsbury's family, when Queen Mary was committed to his charge, consuming four pipes of this wine upon an average in the month. Many persons appeared inclined to attribute the change which afterwards took place with regard to the consumption of this wine to a change in the taste of the country; but that was not the fact. To prove that it was not, it was only necessary to look to what took place at the time when a change of the duties was made. The last time that the wine trade with France was free was from the year 1686 to the year 1695. The annual average importation of French wine during that time amounted to 13,400 tuns, and of Port wine to 433 tuns. It appeared from the statement of those who made a still more advantageous calculation, including the importations into Scotland and Ireland, that the average importation of French wines a mounted, during that period, to 18,000 tuns. In the year 1703, the Treaty of Methuen was entered into, and the importation of French wine then fell to 1,139 tuns, while the importation of Port wine rose from 433 tuns to 8,445 tuns. That was more than a century ago, and he quoted this return to show that since that period the consumption of French wines had not increased, notwithstanding the increase which had since taken place in this country in wealth, in population, and in luxury. The consumption then was 1,139 tuns, and the average consumption of the last nine years amounted only to 1,364 tuns. It was plain that this non-consumption of French wine had been effected by the treaty of Mr. Methuen. In consequence of that Treaty we had been obliged to substitute for a wine which was good and cheap, a wine which was dear and bad. That Treaty was intended to secure to us the markets of Portugal. The Methuen Treaty was a reciprocity treaty, our woollens for their wines was the principle on which it was founded. The limits to which he was restricted would not permit him to go into a detail of the various obstructions which had been thrown by Portugal in the way of the due and fair execution of that Treaty on her part. It would be supposed that under such a treaty we should be supplied with the best quality of wine from Portugal, and to whatever extent we required; but the reverse was the fact. They limited the quantity supplied to us, and they deteriorated it in quality. We supplied them with our best manufactures, and on the cheapest terms they could get them,—we nearly excluded the wines of France in favour of the wines of Portugal,—indeed, he might almost say that we put an end to the whole trade of this country with France for the advantage of the Portuguese; and the return which we got for all this, consisted in contemptible obstructions thrown in the way of our trade, insulting to the national honour, and the commission of direct frauds, which must appear at least nettling to our national vanity. But he grounded this motion upon higher principles than any which had reference to the Methuen Treaty. Still it was necessary for him to advert to that Treaty, as it had been principally levelled against our commerce with France, and the result of it had been to prevent a more extended commerce on our part with that country. His object was, to return to a more extended commerce with that country; and he should, therefore, call the attention of the House to the state of our trade at present with France. He would mention, for the purpose of comparison, the average annual amount of our trade with all parts of the world since the Peace, and the average annual amount of our trade with France during the same period. Our annual average imports for the fifteen years since the Peace, ending the 5th of January, 1829", from all parts of the world, amounted to 34,233,000l.; our average annual exports during the same time amounted to 52,938,689l. During that period our average annual imports from France amounted to 1,883,844l., and our exports to that country to 1,227,887l. Now he would, just by way of comparison, state the amount of our trade with another great Power during that period. He would take the United States as the instance to which he should refer the House; and the House would remember that they were at a greater distance than France, and that their population was not above twelve millions, while that of France was thirty. That country, as well as France, laid numerous restrictions upon our commerce, and yet the average amount of our imports from the United States was 3,936,000l., and the annual average amount of our exports to that country was 6,556,474l. This return showed that our imports from the United States were three times greater than our imports from France, and that our exports there were six times more valuable than our exports to France. That was a state of things little creditable either to England or to France. The home trade, it was known, was for every country by far the most advantageous trade; but as compared to America, the trade with France might for us be called a home trade. There was, at least, between the two countries quite as great a diversity of natural advantages of climate, and soil, and situation, as between any two parts of our own country, while the distance was not so great between France and England as between several parts of our own dominions; the habits and manners of the two people were much the same; their industry and ingenuity were equal, though directed to different objects; and there was no earthly obstacle but our own treaties to prevent the trade with France being an extension of our home trade, and becoming, like that, a source of wealth and happiness to the community. The advantages, indeed, of an extensive commerce with France had been often dwelt upon by former statesmen, by such men as Boling-broke and Pitt, and indeed they required but little argument to place them in a strong point of view. France presented many peculiar advantages for an extended commercial intercourse with this country. She continued to be the first wine-country in the world, and this country, which, as Mr. Pitt well expressed it, had by science and industry also acquired a distinct staple of its own, could exchange its manufactured produce for the wines and raw produce of France, greatly to the benefit of both countries. Each country had its own staple, and they were therefore fitted, and he might say intended, to carry on an extensive commerce with each other. In this small island, the amount of inanimate power applied to manufactures alone was treble that which was so applied in France and all its territory. France was only divided from us by the British Channel, and was nearer even than Ireland to our shores; and yet the amount of our trade with France, after the expiration of fifteen years of peace, was only what he had stated. It was evident, from the great superficial extent of France, extending from the British Channel to the Mediterranean, that it should offer us the most beneficial market in the world. We had complained of the unfortunate state of our iron trade, yet iron was a commodity needed in France, and which might well be taken in exchange for her wines. But France had, since 1814, imposed considerable duties upon the import of iron and other articles of our manufactured produce, though we had no right to blame France upon that ground. We were the first to commence the restrictive system, by the imposition of almost prohibitory duties upon the importation of her wines. Now wine formed the essential basis of her commerce—there were five millions of acres devoted to the cultivation of the grape; the manufacture of wine gave employment to 1/10 part of the population of the country; and the value of the annual produce averaged 24,000,000l. The question, who was it began with the imposition of restrictions, the French or ourselves, was easily answered. The French commenced in 1814, and we commenced so far back as 1703, with the Methuen Treaty; so that, as we were the first to commence the system, we should lead the way in putting an end to it. Why should a treaty like that of Methuen be allowed to continue a mischievous barrier to the extension of the commerce of the country. He denied that we derived any advantages from the existence of that Treaty in our intercourse with Portugal which could be in any respect compared to the advantages which would result from a departure from it. Our supplying the markets of that country with salt fish was advantageous to us; but we possessed that independently of the Methuen Treaty. Portugal was no longer what it was at the date of the Treaty. It was then united with the Brazils, disseminating European refinement through America, and bringing back the wealth of America to Europe. It was now merely Portugal, and its condition was such as to render its commerce of little advantage to any country. Its population amounted to only 3,000,000, and he believed it was stationary, if not actually diminishing. Internal commerce it had none, from want of the necessary communications; while its foreign commerce was daily falling more and more into decay, the kingdom not having a sufficient naval force to de- fend it against the common pirate. Then it was to be remarked, that Portugal had not a single institution which was not intended to suppress improvement, and choke up the springs of productive industry. Thus, the inhabitants still remaining in that country, were reduced to the lowest ebb of poverty, misery, and degradation; while many others had abandoned in despair a land possessing at this moment but few of the attributes of civilization. Her rich mines were lying idle, her fisheries yielded her no returns, her fertile soil did not give bread to her people, her agriculture was worse than in the days of Julius Cæsar, and her resources were not greater in proportion than those of Poland or Turkey. In fact, she was an example of a country in which the natural springs of national prosperity were stopped or poisoned by monopoly, superstition, and bad government. Was it for such a country that we were to sacrifice the advantages which might be derived from a more intimate commercial intercourse with France? What could we import from Portugal exclusive of wine? It appeared from parliamentary returns that the whole value of our imports from Portugal last year, not including wine, amounted only to 112,000l. That was not equal to the trade of one of our smaller colonies, and were the national interests to be sacrificed to such a paltry trade as that? The Treaty with Portugal had been always defended on the ground that Portugal afforded a market for our woollens. Now he would, just to illustrate the effects of that Treaty, state the amount of our exports to Portugal previous to it, and compare that amount with our present exports there. He would, in the first instance, take the average of the four years previous to the conclusion of the Methuen Treaty. The average amount of our exports to Portugal, including the Azores, for the four years previous to 1703 was 728,585l.; that was before the conclusion of this Treaty, which was so much to benefit our woollen trade; and the total value of our exports of woollens to Portugal was, in the year 1828, according to the parliamentary returns, only 164,926l., so that the average amount in value of our woollens exported to Portugal previous to the Methuen Treaty was four or five times greater than it was now, after that Treaty had been in existence for a century and upwards. During the same year, the value of the woollens exported to the Brazils was 396,768l., or double the value of the woollens exported to Portugal. He did not deem it necessary to dwell upon the importance to the manufacturing and commercial interests of this country of extending our markets upon the Continent of Europe. Nor should he on that occasion speak of the political advantages of extending our trade with France. He argued this question, at present, in a commercial point of view. He should not, on this occasion, go further than his Motion, though he hoped, upon some future opportunity, to invite the attention of the House to the necessity of adopting some decisive measures for extending our trade with France. He agreed with Mr. Pitt, that it was our interest to be most liberal in our conduct, with a view to secure an increased intercourse with France. He saw no reason, notwithstanding the restrictions which existed at present upon the trade between this country and France, why the day should not soon arise when England and France, by their intimate commercial intercourse, would be as it were bound securely together for keeping the general peace of Europe. He did not think that his Majesty's Ministers were called upon to give any premature expression of their opinions on this subject, but he was sure they were anxious for the period, and it could not arrive too soon, when they might have an opportunity of repelling the idea that they were actuated by anything like Antigallican feelings. The hon. Member concluded by moving for "copies or extracts of the Report of the Lords Commissioners of Trade, with respect to the Wine Company in Oporto, and its monopoly, in the year 1767; also a copy of the Remonstrance of Lord Strangford to the Court of Brazil, in 1813; also copies of all Diplomatic Correspondence relating to this subject; and likewise for returns of the Imports and Exports between this country and Portugal, and between this country and the Brazils, from the year 1800 to the present time."

, after complimenting the hon. Member on the ability with which he had brought the subject under the notice of the House, and for the perspicuous statement which he had made with regard to it, assured him that he did not rise to defend the Methuen Treaty, or to controvert his statements, to the greater portion of which he was more willing to give his assent than his opposition. He should not go into the details of this subject on this occasion, and for these two considerations: the first was, that in the present state of the business of that House, even as it stood for that night, it was almost totally impossible to find enough time for the discussing questions of pressing and urgent necessity: and in the second place, he believed that the hon. Member himself would acknowledge, that though his Motion might in itself be unobjectionable, and though it might be useful to call the attention of the House to the state of our trade with Portugal, it would be inconvenient for his Majesty's Ministers, at this period of the Session, to enter upon a detail of their views as to the various topics connected with this subject. He was of opinion that this country was at perfect liberty to revise and reconsider the Methuen Treaty, and he would say further, that Government was disposed to undertake that revision so soon as the state of our political relations with Portugal afforded an opportunity for that purpose. He would further assure him, that, whenever the discussion regarding this Treaty should be renewed with the Portuguese government, the just causes of complaint to which he had referred would not fail to be urged as they deserved. He should not oppose the production of the greater part of the papers moved for by the hon. Member. He was willing to accede to the production of the Report of the Lords of Trade, the remonstrance of Lord Strangford, and the Import and Export returns; but the diplomatic correspondence for which he moved, the hon. Member must see could not at present, with propriety, be produced, as it might have reference to many public transactions and negotiations yet in progress. He would repeat, that in a great portion of the statements of the hon. Member he perfectly concurred. It appeared to him that there were only a few points on which the hon. Member was mistaken; but in all such statements as those which he had made, a little exaggeration almost unavoidably crept in. He could not promise the hon. Member that any government would undertake to rescue the country from the mischief which it suffered owing to the strange conduct of the foreign winegrower. That was not owing to the uncertainty of our relations with the Portuguese government, but to other circumstances, quite unconnected with it. Acting upon the principle which he had already avowed, he hoped that the House would not think that he was acting disrespect- fully to it if he declined, on the present; occasion, to make any further observations.

hoped, that he should stand excused if he ventured, on the present occasion, to make a few remarks on the statement which had been made by his hon. friend. He saw clearly that it had made, and very justly, a considerable impression on the House. He wished to do all justice to his hon. friend, both for the attention which he had bestowed upon the subject matter of it, and for the talent with which he had that evening placed it under the consideration of the House. But as he knew, even from his own short experience in Parliament, how apt Members were to run away with statements in search of new projects to extend the commerce of the country, he must claim the indulgence of the House for a short time, whilst he proceeded to correct some of the statements of his hon. friend. He should follow the example of his hon. friend, in not dwelling upon the present state of our political relations with Portugal. His hon. friend had confined his observations to the present state of the commercial regulations existing between the two countries; and he should therefore confine himself within the same limits. His hon. friend had designated the Methuen Treaty as one under which we had the misfortune to live. He could not join his hon. friend in the opposition which he had offered to the continuance of that Treaty, nor in the statements which he had made respecting the disadvantages of our present commercial regulations with Portugal. He admitted that our relations with Portugal might be attended with disadvantage in a political point of view; but he contended that in every practical point of view, they were of greater advantage to us than any which we had contracted with any other European nation. He wished with all his heart that there were no circumstances which forbad the extension of our commerce with France. He hoped that the time would soon arrive when the circumstances to which he alluded would cease to exist; and he would cordially concur with his hon. friend in forwarding any rational plan for extending the commerce between England and France, nations which appeared reciprocally formed to supply each other's wants, though now carrying on little or no trade with one another. In speaking of our trade with Portugal, his hon. friend had brought under the notice of the House the inconsiderable amount of our imports from Portugal. His hon. friend had said, that the import of all articles from Portugal, wine excepted, did not amount one year with another to 100,000l.; but his hon. friend had forgotten to notice in his statement what was far more important, that in the year 1829, a period antecedent to the interruption of the commercial regulations between Great Britain and Portugal, the amount of British and Irish exports to Portugal exceeded 2,500,000l. Unfortunately he observed in the Official Returns of this year a diminution of no less than 750,000l. which undoubtedly was much to be regretted, but which was to be-attributed to the disturbed and distracted condition of the internal relations of Portugal, rather than to any want of demand for the consumption of British manufactures in that country. His hon. friend repudiated the trade of Portugal, but invited that of France. Now, if his hon. friend had been kind enough to inform the House how that trade was to be obtained, he would have conferred a great boon not only upon the House, but also upon the country. Until the government of France changed its present system of commercial policy, it would be impossible for us, however willing we might be, to extend our commerce with that nation. He believed that events were even now in progress which would ultimately work that change, and that the opinions of all enlightened men in France were now verging to that point which would at last produce that consummation for which every friend to commercial freedom must now devoutly wish. That state of things was not, however, yet in existence. He would, therefore, tell his Majesty's advisers, that if they forfeited the advantages which this country derived at present from its trade with Portugal, without stipulating expressly with the government of France for countervailing advantages, by opening the trade in wine to its subjects, they would be giving up a substantial good for a mere empty shadow. He admitted that the monopoly of the Oporto Wine Company was a monstrous evil. It was one to which the Government of this country was perfectly alive, and on which he believed that it had made frequent representations to the government of Portugal. As, however, the Treaty of 1810 was now at an end, the fifteen years of its continuance having expired, and as the government of Portugal had given our Government notice that that Treaty must come under revision, he trusted that in forming the conditions which our Government might be induced to demand of Portugal, the circumstance would not be overlooked, that Portugal was almost exclusively supplied with British manufactures. He should not follow his hon. friend into the discussion upon the quality of the wines of Portugal, into which his hon. friend had entered, though it was quite irrelevant to the subject matter of his Motion, for he did not know what we had to do with the adulteration which those wines underwent in Guernsey and Jersey when considering the trade which we carried on with Portugal. The wines of Portugal were the favourite beverage of this country, and in more general consumption than the wines of any other nation; and he would assure his hon. friend that if ever the wines of France were as generally drank here as those of Portugal, both would be liable to the same adulteration. He must, notwithstanding the impatience of the House to press on to the other business of the evening, advert to one other subject connected with this question, which he considered of great importance. He took as the House was probably aware, a deep interest in the welfare and prosperity of one of our colonies, which carried on a flourishing trade with Portugal—he meant Newfoundland. That colony absolutely existed in consequence of the low rate of duty at which British fish was introduced into Portugal; and he said, that if Ministers should not be able, whenever the Treaty with Portugal was revised, to secure the same advantages for the introduction of British-cured fish into Portugal, that colony would be decidedly ruined. The consumption in Portugal amounted to one-third of the fish cured in Newfoundland, which was admitted into Portugal at a rate of duty ten per cent lower than that paid on the fish cured by any other nation; so that the fish cured by the French and Americans was excluded from the Portuguese markets, and we were left to supply them entirely. In that respect a very extensive and beneficial trade to this country was carried on between Portugal and our colonies, which was not merely of advantage in a pecuinary point of view,—it preserved our fisheries, it increased the number of our hardy seamen, and it tended to preserve our maritime superiority. Should, unfortunately, any commercial dis- pute occur by which Portugal should lose the advantage of having its wine introduced at a rate of duty lower by one-third than the rate of duty imposed on the wines of other countries, Ministers might depend upon it, that the government of Portugal would admit into that country foreign manufactures and foreign goods at a lower rate of duty than it did at present. We might be insensible to the value of our trade with Portugal, but France was not. France was jealous of our monopoly of trade with Portugal; and France, that very country which his hon. friend asked them to trade with, though he did not vouchsafe to inform them how they were to do so, was anxious to secure to itself those advantages which we seemed so anxious to throw away. Let the Government, therefore, take care that the country did not lose all the advantages which it now derived from our connexion with Portugal, without securing those which his hon. friend held out as a lure for engaging in commerce with France. He would not go so much at length as he had originally intended into the answer, which he had in his power to give to his hon. friend's statement. He concurred with his hon. friend in all that he had said respecting the injurious consequences of the monopoly of the Wine Company at Oporto. He concurred with him in thinking, that if Government could devise any mode by which the country could obtain the admission of its manufactures into France, the trade of Portugal might be given up without regret; but at the same time he must remind his hon. friend, and the House at large, that in an anxious desire—which, by the by, was the vice of the present day—to look out for new sources of foreign trade, they ought not to overlook the advantages which they enjoyed already from trade moving in those channels in which it had long been accustomed to move with security and profit. The hon. Member concluded by thanking the House for the attention with which they had listened to him whilst expressing his opinions on a subject which he considered of paramount importance.

said, that he would not detain the House at any great length upon this subject, after the very able and perspicuous statement made by his hon. friend behind him respecting our commercial regulations with Portugal since the signing the Methuen Treaty. He had observed upon a former occasion, that all that we had obtained as an equivalent for the privilege which that treaty gave to Portugal of introducing its wines at a duty one-third lower than the duty which we imposed upon the wines of France, was, that British woollens should be imported into Portugal, but without any preference to the woollens of other countries. Before the signature of that treaty, the introduction of foreign woollens into Portugal was totally prohibited; and the equivalent which we obtained for the privilege which we conferred upon the Portuguese wines was the admission of our woollens. Now, there could be no doubt that we might put an end to that treaty. He would not be content with saying that we might put an end to that treaty—he would say that we ought, and that too, for this reason. The only privilege which we obtained as an equivalent for those which we extended to the Portuguese, was the admission of our woollens into that country. Now, for many years past, the prohibition on the admission of woollens, the production of other countries besides Great Britain and its dependencies, had been removed; and, therefore, the woollens of Great Britain stood in no favour, so far as the policy of the government of Portugal was concerned, over the woollens of other countries. The advantage, therefore, of importing the wines of Portugal at a duty, only two-thirds of that imposed on the wines of France, was now given without any consideration in return, and ought, therefore, to be withdrawn. He differed a little from his hon. friend as to the policy of the treaty into which we entered with Portugal in the year 1810. He thought that if in the Methuen Treaty this country had made an arrangement disadvantageous to British interests, it had by the treaty of 1810, in consequence of its relations with the family of Braganza, then exiled from its European dominions, obtained concessions and privileges highly advantageous to it, and greater perhaps than were just to the other contracting party. By that treaty the Methuen Treaty was continued—we gave to Portugal the privilege of importing its wines at two-thirds of the duty imposed upon the wines of any other country, and Portugal bound itself to us to receive all articles, the manufacture and produce of Great Britain, at a rate of duty not exceeding fifteen per cent on their value, whilst the same articles, being the produce of other countries, were to pay a duty of twenty-five per cent. Now, when we bound ourselves to grant to Portugal an inequality of duty upon one article only of its produce, it was scarcely fair to demand from Portugal that she should receive all articles of our produce and manufacture at a rate of duty so much less than that which she imposed on the same articles when imported from other countries. He was of opinion that in all treaties of commerce the great object should be, to establish a complete reciprocity between the two nations who were parties to them. It never could be productive of advantage to a strong country to impose conditions that were at once unjust and onerous on a weak country; and he was satisfied that, whatever advantages England might have derived from the treaty of 1810, there had been on the part of the people of Portugal, from a feeling of its inequality, a disposition either to evade its conditions, or to compensate themselves by obtaining other advantages not consistent either with the letter or with the spirit of that treaty. He agreed with his hon. friend in the condemnation which he had passed upon the wine monopoly of Oporto. The company engaged in the monopoly was a company of great power. All the men of consideration, influence, and wealth in Portugal were members of it. They had made it a great engine of State, by which they had raised the price of the wines of Portugal in a very undue manner, and in a very unfair degree. He believed that he should not overstate the amount to which that company had raised the price of Portuguese wines when he said that they had raised it to the amount of at least 15l. on every pipe. That company imposed upon this country, the most favoured of all countries in Portugal as far as commerce was concerned, this condition—that the company should have the power of determining the quantity of wine to be sent off to England in any one year. Nor, was this, though bad enough, all—it had even the power of selecting each pipe to be sent to England, and when it had done that, it did not stop even there—it took as much of the wine itself as it thought proper, and then it left the remainder to be purchased by the British trader. Even this was not the end of the abuse. The English trader could not buy any wine in Portugal, save that which was allotted to him by the company. He could not buy the wine which the Swede or the Dane was at liberty to buy, and thus if the wine of Portugal were, as the hon. member for Worcester had stated, the favourite beverage of this country, we had not the chance of obtaining it in the highest perfection, as we were obliged to take up with any trash which might be chosen by the Oporto monopoly. He had shown on a former occasion that all these abuses had grown out of that monopoly. That monopoly had been made the subject of frequent representation to the government of Portugal. That government had promised, over and over again, to redress the abuses which had grown out of it. Now we had no right to compel any country to change its municipal regulations for the sake of either pleasing or profiting our merchants, and hence arose the great difficulty of getting any alteration made in that monopoly. His hon. friend had stated that since the fifteen years, for which the treaty of 1810 was to continue, had expired in 1825, that treaty was now open to revision. It was true that that treaty was open to revision, but not true that it was at an end. That treaty was perpetual, subject only to the right of being revised by both parties, if they so thought fit, at the expiration of fifteen years. In 1825 that period of fifteen years expired. It was no sooner terminated than negotiations commenced for the revision of the treaty. He was at that period President of the Board of Trade, and those negotiations were conducted by the late Mr. Canning and himself with the Portuguese ambassador in this country. The treaty was almost satisfactorily arranged, when political events prevented its termination. In those negotiations his Majesty's Government never lost sight of the abuses arising out of this monopoly. Provision was made in the project of the treaty, and was almost agreed upon, for putting an end to them. He must, therefore, put in his claim to have one of these alternatives agreed to by the House—"Either place the two countries upon a footing of equality, or, if we are to have the exclusive privilege in Portugal of importing our cottons, our woollens, our silks, our hardware, at duties one-third lower than those imposed on the same articles imported from other countries, in common justice allow, not only wine, but all the productions of Portugal, to come into our dominions on the same terms."

He would not give any opinion at present as to which of these two plans he considered best, though, certainly, upon the principles which he had always advocated, he was inclined to think that it would be best to act on the principles of reciprocity. The hon. member for Worcester had stated, that if we gave up our present advantages in Portugal, we should have every reason to fear the competition of France. For his own part, he believed that there was no occasion for him to be in any such state of alarm. He had no doubt but that we should find even with the most enterprising spirit of competition, that our manufactures would still meet with the same preference in Portugal as they now met with in every other country. As to the trade with Newfoundland, on which the hon. member for Worcester had laid so much stress, it would be placed on the same footing as the trade in fish of other countries. Though we might not retain all, we should still retain a great part of it. He much doubted whether monopoly did not in all trades lead to expense, indifference, remissness, and negligence on the parts of those who possessed it. Give fair competition to the British fish-curer, and he should not be afraid of his being able to meet his American and French rivals in the Portuguese market with complete success. Be that, however, as it might, it was not their province at present to discuss the relative advantages of the fish-curers of Newfoundland and of America, but it was the province of his Majesty's Government to arrange with Portugal, as soon as the political circumstances of the two countries would permit, the footing on which the trade between the two countries ought to be permanently settled. All that he contended for at present was this,—that we should not exact from Portugal conditions which we ourselves should not be willing to grant. He stated it to be his deliberate opinion that the trade of Portugal would be most efficaciously promoted by its not being placed under the care of Government as to its details. He admitted that our chief trade with Portugal was indeed carried on directly with that country, but indirectly with Spain. Every body knew that the fish and the manufactured goods which we sent to Lisbon and other parts in Portugal found their way thence into Spain, and were there consumed. As to Portugal, it was evident that she was every day be- coming more and more a weak and impoverished country, but that was no reason why she should not be treated with all the regard which was due to her as our ancient ally, and with all the moderation which was best calculated to advance our trade and to promote our general interests.

said, that he should not occupy the attention of the House more than a few moments, and he should do so for the purpose of recommending on behalf of our manufacturing interests, a closer commercial connection with France. He had lately made it his business to make many inquiries relating to the state of our manufacturing districts—and whether he inquired among the persons engaged in the iron, the cotton, or the woollen trade, he was always answered that it was their anxious desire to obtain some market into which they might send the product of their industry. Unless some market was found for these people, they must suffer considerably, and they did not fear the result of any fair competition. He thanked the hon. Member on behalf of the manufacturers of this country, for the manner in which he had brought this question under the notice of the House, and he had no doubt that this discussion must ultimately be beneficial to them.

Motion agreed to.

said, in rising to submit to the consideration of the House the subject of which he had given notice, he would take the opportunity of stating that he was well aware of the important nature of the question, complicated as it was, which he had undertaken to bring before the House. In his own justification, however, he would state that this was not a subject which he had taken up yesterday, but to which he had devoted much attention for several years. He had now in his hand several documents from which he would state to the House the condition of the Colony of Sierra Leone. So long ago as 1825, he had given notice of a Motion nearly to the same point as that which he was about to make this evening. Sierra Leone was in a peculiar situation. It was not a colony planted by this country for purposes of commerce, nor to furnish the means of existence to our surplus population; it was an establishment founded with the most benevolent views that could ever be entertained by any set of men; it was founded with the pure purpose of improving the condition of the native population of that part of Africa, and of preventing the continuance of the odious and inhuman traffic in Slaves. But there was another respect in which the colony was peculiarly situated. It had now existed somewhat more than forty years, during the first twenty of which, namely, from 1787 to 1807, it existed as a private establishment, and at that time it was given up to the Government, and had been in its possession ever since. It was impossible to look at all the circumstances connected with the establishment of this colony, without being sensible of the obstacles that would arise to the removal of the evils that now existed there, and rendered the colony undeserving of longer support. The measure he should propose was not founded upon any of those things which had taken place within the last few years, but on those which had occurred, he might say, almost from the commencement of the colony, and which had afflicted it within the first eight or ten years as much as at any subsequent period. In order to avoid discussion or dispute upon facts, he should not make one statement in which he was not fully borne out; and he should abstain from employing that strong colouring in which that colony was night after night exhibited to the House. An attempt had been made to avoid the evils of the locality of the colony, by removing it to another situation; but a slight difficulty, never anticipated when the colony was established, had recently arisen. In 1787 Granville Sharpe, and other persons who were connected with him, sent a number of individuals, who took possession of a part of the coast—a sort of peninsula, contained much within the same limits as at present. No less than 440 persons went out in 1787, and 276 of their number died in that year, and in 1788, 130 more of the number died. In 1791 the first charter was granted, and no less a sum than 250,000l. was expended in improving the condition of the colony. Between 1791 and 1792, 119 persons were sent out, and at that time, and at several other periods, a large portion of the old settlers and of the new comers died from the effects of the climate. In 1792 great exertions were made to keep up the state of the colony, At that time 1,130 Blacks were taken thither from Nova Scotia, yet, so ungenial was the climate that a large portion of them, as well as of the Europeans, speedily died. In 1802, according to the late Report of the Commissioners, there were 224 families in the settlement, and notwithstanding all the additions of new colonists of every description made since that time, about 500 or 600 only were existing there at this moment. These difficulties might have discouraged the perseverance of any number of individuals; but the Society that then held the colony, consisting as that Society did of men of influence and power, were not to be deterred from the object they had in view. In 1800 about 500 Maroons had been sent thither—more were afterwards despatched, and in 1826 it was stated that they had held their ground better than any other of the settlers, and had better resisted the attacks of the Black fever. In 1817, 1,220 men belonging to the African Corps, and the West-India regiment, settled there with their families. Additions, too, had been made by the native population of the interior, to such an extent, that in 1800 they amounted to between 2,000 and 3,000. Still, however, great distress existed in the colony, deaths were numerous, and the state of the establishment was not that which its friends could wish it to be. In 1807 the Society found itself unequal to the task of longer managing the affairs of the colony, so as to make it subservient to the great end kept in view by its establishment; they, therefore, requested the Government to take charge of the colony, and to relieve them from the burthen which its existence had entailed on them. Since that time, he would assert that no one of our colonies had had so much money expended upon it, for no one had so much been done by the Government—to keep it up the Government had made great efforts, and yet that object was not attained, and he therefore came to the conclusion that it never could be attained; for if a first private body, with the zeal that animated the members of this Society, and the capital they possessed, after twenty years' trial were obliged to relinquish their labours, and if after twenty years more, the Government, assisted by our powerful navy, backed by the public purse, and possessed of every advantage, could do nothing effectual towards making this colony habitable, he thought it was time to consider whether any further trial should be made. The object of the African Society was, as he had described it, most benevolent—it was to enlighten the minds of the African people, and to establish such a commerce among them as would induce them to put an end to the Slave-trade. He was sorry to say that that object had failed. Various statements had been made with respect to the condition of the colony, and the variety of these appeared to him the only reason that could be assigned for the difference of opinion as to the propriety of abandoning it. The hon. Member read a number of different statements, and then observed, that the air of the colony was as pestilential as at its first establishment. The fact of the evils now existing, and the proof that they were necessarily incidental to the place itself, could be found in the accounts of General Turner, whose statements on the subject were in some instances so dreadful, that he would not shock the House by reading them. The colony had, besides, been a source of immense expense to the country, but he would do the present Secretary for the colonies the justice to say, that within the last few years the utmost desire for economy had been exhibited, so far at least as was compatible with the pursuit of the means adopted for the benefit of the colony. The state of the colony had always been bad with regard to situation and soil. It was only during the two first years that the land could be cultivated; after that time it refused to yield any produce. In what situation would the colony be with a rapidly increasing population of slaves without the means of subsistence. In submitting this Motion to the House, it was necessary to show that the locality and the soil were bad, and as a proof of that he might mention, that notwithstanding all the care that had been employed, neither sugar nor cotton nor rice could be produced. The situation of the colony, as far as regarded its means of communication with other places, was also bad; and though nearly three millions of money had been expended on it, the disadvantages he had referred to had not been overcome, and he believed never could or would be surmounted. When the House recollected the rapid succession of Governors and official men who had gone out to this colony, they could not wonder that papers and records were wanting, to give an exact knowledge of the original popula- tion, of the various changes in its number, and of its present amount. According to a Return that had been laid on the Table of the House in 1825, the number of free Blacks, including the liberated slaves, was 11,500; with soldiers and settlers of every description the population amounted to 17,500. In 1826, the number of persons added to the colony by the introduction of new settlers of every sort, was 2,300; in 1827 it was 2,900; and in 1828 it was 2,800. The gross amount of the population might, therefore, be taken to have reached 25 or 26,000. Of these between 9,000 and 10,000 had died, leaving the population at 17,068. He did not mean to say that the whole of these 9 or 10,000 people had died; some of them were Blacks, who had escaped from the colony; some had enlisted into the West-India regiments, and the rest (by far the greater portion) had perished from the effects of the climate. Why was such a colony to be kept up? He could not conceive what answer would be given to the question. He knew, indeed, that some persons said it should be kept up for the sake of commerce. He would now see how far such a reason was valid. The exports of Sierra Leone, notwithstanding all that might be said of its commerce, were in reality nothing. The exports of the whole of the coast, from Senegal to Guinea, were, in the year 1787, about 150,000l. In the year 1819, they were 110,000l. official value. In the year 1823, they were 114,000l. In 1824, they were 134,000l.; and they were now about 154,000l., consisting principally of palm-oil, dye-woods, and timber. The imports from this country to the colony were, on the contrary, about 118,000l. of British goods, and 119,000l. of foreign, making altogether 237,000l., and this was the great extent of commerce for which the country was to make such a vast sacrifice of human life. He knew that many persons thought the great obstacle to leaving the colony to itself, was to be found in the protection necessary for the liberated Africans; but he was satisfied that means might be found to carry into effect all the intentions of the Government without the occupation of one of the most unhealthy places in the world. From twelve or fourteen degrees north, to as many degrees south of the Line, there was not a place so unhealthy as Sierra Leone; of 120 men sent out there in 1823, not one survived.

A detachment of 130 men was sent out in 1824, and they all died, including four officers. In short the climate was fatal to all Europeans who were sent out, and so unhealthy was Sierra Leone itself, that the Blacks perished there nearly as fast as the Whites. After reading several returns to prove the extent of the mortality, which swept away whole ships' companies, the hon. Member proceeded to observe, that although the island of Fernando Po, from not being sufficiently cleared of timber, had proved unhealthy in one season, there was every reason to believe that it was much better fitted for the residence of Europeans than any other part of the coast. The land, too, had an advantage which Sierra Leone did not possess—it was rich and well fitted for cultivation, and admitted of a more easy access for slave-vessels. Half of the crews of slave-ships were frequently lost in working up to Sierra Leone, and this was an additional reason for the selection of Fernando Po for the refuge of liberated slaves. He had, however, an opinion on the subject of the manner in which these slaves were to be disposed of, which he thought worthy of attention; and this was, to enter into some arrangement with the free Government of Hayti for their reception into that State, in order that they might have opportunities of profitable employment, instead of being kept in comparative idleness at Sierra Leone. That colony had now been tried for twenty years by individuals, and for twenty years by Government. That was enough for a fair trial; and, as it had failed, he should now move, as a Resolution, that it was expedient to adopt measures for withdrawing the settlement of Sierra Leone.

admitted that the experiment of Sierra Leone had failed, but not to the extent stated by the hon. Member, nor was the population so totally destitute of industry as he represented it. He knew it had been unhealthy, but that was the fault of the Government, in constantly sending out a description of soldiers totally unfit for the climate, when it was known that a force of black or brown men would be sufficient for all the purposes of the colony. He knew he was stating an opinion not entertained by many around him; but it was his opinion that there is no difference between the Black man and the White, except that which is produced by superior opportunities of receiving in- formation. As to the unhealthiness of Sierra Leone, he believed it not to be greater than that experienced in the islands of the West Indies. Some time ago he proposed to move for Returns which would have proved the truth of that assertion. On consulting the Ministers, they intreated him not to adopt that course, because it would produce much alarm in the minds of all those whose friends were either in those islands or about to proceed to them. He had, however, received a document connected with the subject, which he would read to the House; and which, he thought, proved as much as any Return which could be laid before it. This document was signed by Sir Herbert Taylor, the Military Secretary, dated in 1826, and he had received permission to use it whenever it became necessary to his argument. It ran thus:—"We are ready to admit, that the mortality among the troops in the island of Jamaica, and even in Ceylon, has been for two years nearly equal in proportion to the mortality at Sierra Leone." It should be recollected, too, that the troops sent to Sierra Leone were generally of dissolute habits, and those in the West Indies were in the highest state of discipline; so that the comparative unhealthiness of the climate was still more evident. He thought much of the failure at Sierra Leone proceeded, not so much from the climate, as from the too lavish system of expenditure, and the avoiding the plan of locations, which would have given the natives an interest in the land. [The hon. Gentleman then read extracts from the correspondence of Colonel Denham and others, for the purpose of proving that the negroes were industrious; and concluded by declaring that he could not vote for the Resolution of the hon. member for Montrose.] He was quite willing to agree to the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry. The hon. Member had alluded to the imports of Sierra Leone, but it was worthy of observation, that the imports of all the West-India Islands were only 864,000l., and the proportion of Sierra Leone was, therefore, infinitely greater than that of the West Indies.

, after observing that the colony of Sierra Leone was a necessary station, in order to repress with success the Slave-trade, still carried on by Brazil, to a very great extent, proceeded to show that we were also bound to retain it by solemn treaties with the great Powers, parties to the abolition of that trade. Without their permission, therefore, and without providing another station elsewhere, it could not be abandoned. The hon. member for Weymouth had, however, in a most extraordinary manner gone out of his way to make a most unjustifiable attack on the West Indies, and he had read a document which he took out of his pocket, and professed to call it the opinion of the Secretary at War. He called on the hon. Member, as he was fully justified in doing, to state under what circumstances he had obtained such a paper, and to explain why it was, that he was trusted with a declaration which could not be made a return to the order of the House? He would tell that hon. Gentleman that it was utterly impossible for him to prove his assertions. Could he show six successive Governors carried off in the island of Jamaica in the same manner as in Sierra Leone? Could he name Registers, Secretaries, Judges, and officers without number, daily falling a prey to the climate of Jamaica? Let him consider the mortality in any station in Sierra Leone, and then say if he was justified in drawing the parallel he had drawn between the two climates. He was sure the hon. Member would regret this hasty and inconsiderate attack. He did not ascribe it to any improper motives, but he thought it most unjustifiable, and he was sure the hon. Member, on consideration, would think so too. There had been unhealthy seasons in Jamaica, but the introduction of iron bedsteads and other regulations, had contributed much to preserve the health of the troops.

repeated that he had obtained permission from Sir Herbert Taylor to use the document he had read whenever the subject came under consideration.

deprecated entering into any discussions on a subject not at all connected with that before the House. He contended that this country was bound to preserve Sierra Leone for the fulfilment of treaties entered into with reference to the Slave-trade, and that we must have the permission of those States to enter into any new arrangement. Its population also had been placed there by our interference, and therefore possessed the strongest claims upon our protection. The hon. member for Montrose was surprised to find the loss on board his Majesty's ships less than he imagined. This should give him consolation, because it proved the colony was not preserved at the expense of so great a waste of human life as some persons were inclined to believe.

said, he had good reason to believe that the statement of the hon. member for Weymouth, (Mr. Buxton) with respect to the opinion entertained by the Government, in reference to the healthiness of Jamaica at the time alluded to, was perfectly correct. He thought that much expense was thrown away at Sierra Leone, and that was one of the causes of its failure as a colony. In a colony formed by the North Americans, called Tiberius, there were upwards of 1,500 free Blacks placed under the control of a single white person, and yet the people were prosperous, and living in perfect harmony and content. The example of this colony was well worth the attention of those who complained of the state of Sierra Leone.

admitted, that nothing could be more proper than the mode in which the hon. member for Montrose had introduced this question to the House. It had been done with that calmness and deliberation which the subject demanded, and he was sorry that it should have been departed from in any instance. He could not help regretting therefore that any mention had been made of the West Indies, as that did not immediately bear on the subject before the House. The question was, whether it was necessary to continue this Settlement or not; and if it was necessary, whether its affairs were conducted as they ought to be? With regard to the necessity of retaining possession of it, that was inseparably connected with the attempt we had so long been making to put an end to the Slave-trade, and for which we had entered into so many treaties with other countries. He must confess that there was some room for regret in regard to the success of that attempt, and the kind of co-operation which we had received from other States in our prosecution of that endeavour. When we entered on that career of humanity, we certainly had not succeeded in finding competitors who were willing to go with us, using that degree of emulation and exertion which the cause required. He did not, however, think that there was sufficient reason to abandon that great and laudable attempt. If it were intended still to persevere in our endeavours to put down the Slave traffic, it was absolutely necessary that we should have some station on the coast of Africa, where the persons rescued from the slave-ships might be landed, and taken under the humane care of this country. With reference to the peculiar situation of Sierra Leone, he could find nothing that induced him to look on that station as more objectionable than any other. On the contrary, the reports of the medical gentlemen rather had an opposite bearing; and while on this subject, though he gave every credit to the hon. member for Montrose, yet he must accuse him of not having brought forward this part of the case with his usual impartiality. The hon. Gentleman had quoted an extract from a letter of General Turner, but he had omitted to mention letters of a more recent date, which referred to the same subject. With regard to the climate, and other particulars, they had the reports of several medical gentlemen; and from Dr. Fergusson's report, it would appear, that the diseases chiefly originated from the drunken habits of the men, and the despair they felt at their situation, both which causes would be equally mischievous in any other climate. But, at all events, it was to be remembered that there were no longer any Europeans on service on that station; the Royal African Corps was greatly diminished, and an arrangement had been made to establish a militia, so that the mortality among European troops would no longer occur. The right hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read extracts from the correspondence of Colonel Denham and others, to show that everything was done to render the situation of the free negroes there comfortable, consistent with the strictest economy; and he also stated, that instructions had gone out for reducing the scale of the government there as much as possible. Having made these observations with regard to the present condition of the colony, he would say a few words as to the future views of the Government respecting it. In the first place it was to be observed that it could not relinquish altogether having a station on the coast of Africa, and he thought that he had shown that economy and good management were united in that of Sierra Leone, at the same time that arrangements had been made to prevent the possibility of the recurrence of that unhealthiness which had previously afflict- ed the colony, by the introduction of black troops and a militia. The next observation that he had to make was, that it was his intention, as far as possible, to fill all the civic offices there with people of colour. The office of the King's Advocate was already so filled, and he was convinced that it was very possible to bring the whole of the colony under the superintendence of persons of colour, who were not likely to suffer in their health; and pursuing that system still further, he did not despair of its finally being in the power of this country to form that station into the condition of a free African colony on such a plan as should be best calculated to meet the exigencies of the case; and looking at the circumstances in that point of view, he thought that they presented a most favourable opening for carrying into effect the original benevolent intentions on which it had been founded. On all these grounds, he saw no reason for acceding to the Motion of the hon. member for Montrose. The possibility of removing the colony to another situation had been alluded to; but he thought that he had already shown that no great advantage could be derived from that; besides which, the removal of 16,000 or 17,000 liberated Africans from a place where they were settled, and which was actually in a state of cultivation, could not be effected without incurring an enormous expense, and sacrificing all those advantages which had already been obtained. On all these grounds it appeared to be inexpedient to relinquish the station which we already held at Sierra Leone. It had, however, occurred to him, how far it might be fit or practicable to withdraw the Europeans from that situation, leaving the liberated Africans to remain on the spot, and take care of themselves. That, however, was a question which must be approached with caution, for nothing could be so unjust or wicked as now to abandon those persons, after having liberated them from their former miserable condition, by which means they would be again exposed to the cruelty and persecutions of those from whose grasp they had previously been rescued. Having, however, this question in view, he had been in communication with the Church Missionary Society, and they had undertaken to take charge of the liberated negroes, so far as their morals were concerned; of course requiring that no more liberated Africans should be added, lest it might neutralize and derange the operations they had previously begun, and with the understanding that all charges were to be defrayed by the Government. Under these circumstances he trusted that the House would not feel called on to accede to the measure proposed by the hon. Gentleman. But in addition to this Motion, the hon. member for Weymouth had suggested that this question ought to be investigated by a committee. It did not, however, appear to him that any such inquiry was necessary, though at the same time he begged to observe, that he should have no objection to such a course if the House thought it necessary.

was of opinion that there had not been the shadow or pretence of an argument adduced why there should not be at least an inquiry on this subject. The hon. member for Weymouth, after taking great pains to describe how happy the liberated negroes were, had concluded by himself proposing a committee; and the right hon. Gentleman, though he had talked about the economy practised there, had not said one word to show that there ought not to be an inquiry. Let any one look at the expenditure that had taken place, and he would scarcely believe, that after five or six millions had been consumed, and after such a sacrifice of lives as was too horrible to dwell upon, that any Member could say that it was necessary to persist in this principle. There were some persons in this country under a humane delusion; but why were they to delude the whole Parliament of England? The only reason that he knew was, because it suited the views of a certain party, calling themselves Saints. He did not mean to say that the fault of keeping up Sierra Leone with its expensive establishments, was attributable to the present Ministry; but it was attributable to every Ministry in this country since we undertook to put down the Slave-trade. He thought that inquiry was necessary, and if, therefore, his hon. friend would not alter his Motion to a committee, he would to-morrow, or on the first opportunity, move for a committee himself. Amongst the other losses that had been sustained, not a word had been said relative to the losses of the navy; and yet instances had recently occurred of ships lying in the port there losing so many men that they could not be worked home. Last Session, the right hon. Gentleman had said, that he was ready to afford every information on the subject; and yet he now said that no inquiry was necessary. He trusted that his hon. friend would alter his Motion to one for a committee; but if not, he himself would agitate the question every day while the Parliament sat.

could not forget that the hon. Gentleman who had spoken last was one of those who had formerly been anxious to perpetuate in this country the eternal disgrace of the odious traffic in slaves. When he bore this in mind, he could not feel much astonished at the little desire the hon. Gentleman had evinced that this country should redeem the pledge which it had then given, nor that he cared but little whether we rendered our solemn treaties with foreign powers on this subject absolute nullities. The hon. Gentleman had said that this measure was carried to please the Saints; but he would tell him that, with the exception of twenty Members, the whole of that House were unanimous for the abolition of the Slave-trade; and he would tell him still more—with the exception of those who deemed themselves interested in the subject, the whole country had called on its Representatives to exert themselves in the same attempt. He acceded to every word that had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, for he thought that he had displayed the most perfect wisdom, and the most entire liberality of feeling in all that he had said; neither did he see what more the House could ask for than the right hon. Gentleman had promised; for it was only in March last that the treaties on the subject had come to a perfect consummation. It had been stated, upon authority which could not be questioned, that the Slave-trade was at the present moment carried on within the territory of the British settlement at Sierra Leone, and that the flags which protected slave ships from search, protected not only the Slave-trade, but piracy. He was as sensible as any man could be of the dangers to which Europeans were exposed in that climate; but he felt bound to contend for the necessity of maintaining our settlement there for some time longer, and to this he was the more inclined, as he felt perfectly satisfied that a small force of coloured soldiers would be sufficient to preserve the peace and good order of the colony. Though he deeply deplored the mortality, yet, convinced as he was of the necessity of keeping up the settlement, he felt assured that nothing could be more suitable for that purpose than were the measures of the right hon. Gentleman: he, therefore, could not support the Motion of the hon member for Aberdeen.

denied that the climate of Sierra Leone was so insalubrious as had been stated. The mortality in the King's ships, it appeared by returns on the Table, had not exceeded twenty per cent. instead of whole ships' companies having been swept off. Indeed, taking a long period, from 1816 to 1828, it appeared that of 11,539, the number which died was only 524, or not above five per cent. He also denied that six Governors had died there successively, observing that Mr. Macauley had lived there as Governor for eight years, and had now been thirty years in England. The hon. Baronet mentioned some other public officers who had spent several years there without inconvenience; and contended that it was, upon the whole, not more unhealthy than other places upon the coast of Africa.

deprecated any mixture of the Slave-trade with the question respecting the abandonment of Sierra Leone, for the two matters were perfectly distinct. He thought, upon the whole, that he should best consult the wishes of the House, and perhaps more effectually attain the object which he had in view, by agreeing to a Select Committee for the purpose of instituting a minute inquiry into the real condition of the colony. A very short time, he trusted, would suffice to bring that inquiry to a close, and then the House, upon a report, would have ample means of forming a judgment. With the leave of the House, he would withdraw his Motion, and substitute for it a motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the present state of the colony at Sierra Leone.

Motion for the appointment of a Committee agreed to, and Committee appointed.

suggested that Thursday would be a convenient day for the Chancery bill, and Friday for the other bill for improving the Administration of the Law. He would propose that on Friday they should begin with the Scotch Judicature bill, and after having disposed of that, apply themselves to the other, the bill for amending the Welsh Judicature, and for otherwise improving the general Administration of the Law. By proceeding according to that arrangement, he trusted that considerable advance would be made. He also adverted, without going into detail, to some alterations which had been made in those bills by the hon. and learned Gentleman by whom they were introduced.

wished to know what the nature of those alterations was?

said, that it was proposed to render the new Equity Judge independent, and to make some other changes, not materially affecting the substance or principle of the bill; but he could not undertake to say that such alterations were to be made as would prove sufficient to conciliate the favour and support of the hon, and learned Gentleman.

Lord Milton adverted to a motion of the hon. member for Lincoln, which stood in the Notice-book.

said, he had been told that there was not the slightest chance of his motion's being heard on the day for which it stood. There was no motion of more importance; it was of more importance than any which had been introduced in the present Session, as most materially affecting the rights of the people, and the dignity of Parliament; and unless some day was fixed, with the positive and clear understanding that his motion should come on, he should not waive any advantages which his present notice conferred upon him.

inquired of the Chancellor of the Exchequer respecting the day on which he intended to bring forward his motion relative to the Sugar duties.

said, he had given up Friday to the two bills for improving the Administration of Justice; and he could not yet specify any other day on which he should bring forward the subject mentioned by the hon. Member.

observed, that nothing could be a stronger proof of the backward state of business than that the measures which came recommended in the Speech from the Throne on the first day of the Session, had still several stages to go through. On Friday his hon. and learned friend would state the alterations made, and the present contents and scope of the bills for appointing a new Equity Judge, and improving the administration of justice throughout the kingdom, provided there was time for his doing so after the discussion on the Scotch Judicature bill had been gone through. The latter, he hoped, might be allowed to begin at half-past five.

complained of the great length of time which a notice stood upon the book respecting the Registrar at Madras, and urged the necessity of immediately disposing of that question.

thought the House should meet at twelve o'clock on Saturday for that purpose: they had already, in the course of the Session, sat on a Saturday, and he considered that a very fit occasion for again doing so. He thought they ought to make a great exertion to dispose of the business in question; for his part, he should be perfectly ready to attend.

said, it was a judicial question, involving private rights—it would be necessary to hear Counsel—and he thought that no day would be fitter for the purpose. A bill of his for creating Local Judicatures, was ready for introduction, which he thought ought to be preceded by the sanction of a committee of the whole House being given to the emoluments of officers therein mentioned, who were not to receive fees. It was thought by some that the notice he had given implied an assent on the part of the Crown; and that it appeared to pledge the executive Government to the support of the measure. As it had been regarded in that light, he would endeavour so to shape his measure as to obviate that objection. He apologized for having been so long in preparing the bill; but the complexity of the details would, he hoped, be received as a sufficient excuse. He had now only to add, that the bill was intended to be at first only an experimental measure; it therefore could only be applied to a limited district; yet, by the alteration of a single word, it could be made applicable to the whole country. He proposed to bring it in on Thursday.

The conversation here terminated.