moved that a new writ be issued for the borough of Knaresborough, in the room of the right hon. Henry Brougham, now Lord Broug- ham, who had accepted the office of Lord High Chancellor.

said, that this motion, although it appeared to be almost one of course, was, considering the circumstances attending it, one of the most important that had ever been made within the walls of that House, and he trusted, therefore, that he should be excused if he ventured to make a few observations upon it. The Gentleman whose place it was now necessary to fill up in that House, and who, by the courtesy of that House, had been usually called an hon. and learned Member of that House, but who now, by a most extraordinary change, was to be called a noble and learned Lord,—the noble and learned Lord, then, had declared publicly and plainly that House, and with a full view of the change which had now been effected, that he could not by any possibility form a part of that Administration whose creation, when the now noble and learned Lord made this declaration, was plainly, obviously, and certainly, inevitable. He should not have thought so much of this declaration, had not the noble and learned Lord made it voluntarily, and had he not repeated it—yes, repeated it, and voluntarily repeated it—on the next public occasion, and after he had had full time to look at all the bearings of the impending change. He had often heard that noble and learned Lord, while a Member of that House, declare that the characters of public men formed a part of the wealth of England; and as often as the noble and learned Lord had expressed this sentiment, so often had he (Mr. Croker) been prepared to admit the correctness of it, and to participate fully in its justness. If the sentiment was correct,—as from his heart he believed it was,—he must say, that he did think it highly important that the character of the man who was vested with the most eminent and transcendent powers of the State, who was called—by an expression, a sacred expression, but not an extravagant one—" the keeper of the. King's conscience," and who, above all, had the disposal of the chief part of the patronage of the Church—he did, he said, think it important in the highest degree that the character of such a man should stand clear of all shuffling intrigue, manly, open, fair, and unclouded, to the view of the public. Certain it was, that if the character of any public man ought to stand thus, the Lord Chancellor was that man; and he could not, therefore, think any apology was due from him for taking this, the most fitting opportunity of reminding the House of those two remarkable declarations which the noble and learned Lord had volunteered in that House. He was ready to hear now, or, if it were not convenient now, at some other time when it might be convenient, the explanation of the reasons which had influenced the conduct of the noble and learned Lord. He was very ready to believe that a satisfactory explanation could be given, but, in the absence of such explanation, and with the present recollection of the voluntary declarations of the noble and learned Lord, he had thought it his duty to make these observations to the House. Allow him to say, that he was altogether at a loss to understand why this motion was not made yesterday; for, considering the declarations of the noble and learned Lord, that he would not take office, and considering also that the noble and learned Lord had given notice of motions on two of the most important and vital questions that could be brought under the consideration of the Commons of England—considering that those notices yet stood in the Order Book of that House— considering these things, he must say, that he did not think the House had been respectfully treated in not being informed, at the earliest possible opportunity, of the appointment of the noble and learned Lord to an office which precluded the possibility of his redeeming- those pledges which he had solemnly made to the House. It would be no excuse for this want of respect to the House to say, that the patent of the noble and learned Lord was not made out yesterday; for though still but a right hon. and learned Gentleman, he was certainly Lord Keeper, or Chancellor, or at least Speaker of the House of Lords. They had all seen him there; they had been witnesses to his taking his seat on the Woolsack; and if the noble and learned Lord had hurried forward with breathless haste to take possession of that place of distinction,—if some technical affairs had been set aside in order that nothing might impede the gratification of the noble and learned Lord's desire to exhibit himself to the astonished spectators in that high and splendid character— he had almost said domino—in which they had all beheld him;—if these things had occurred, he must say, that he did not think it was respectful to that House not to inform them, as soon as the House of Lords was informed, of this remarkable appointment. He would show to the House what impression the declarations of the noble and learned Lord had made upon the country, and consequently, how necessary it was that a satisfactory explanation should be given of the subsequent conduct of the noble and learned Lord. There were certain organs by which the people expressed their sentiments; he need not more particularly describe the nature of those organs, and he had only to observe, that it was from one of them that he was about to read the passage to which he begged the attention of the House. The hon. Member then read as follows:—" Our Representative, Mr. Brougham, has declared twice in the House of Commons, and, as we learn from The Morning Chronicle, also in the Court of King's Bench, that he will not be a member of any Administration that may be formed. According to that paper, the hon. and learned Gentleman stated that' the representation of Yorkshire was the only place he would have.' A correspondent of our own says—' Mr. Brougham said in the counsel-room yesterday, that he should take no office whatever: that when he was returned for Yorkshire, he made his election between power and the service of the people.' His constituents will learn with great satisfaction the estimate he sets on the honour of their representation. And, indeed, Mr. Brougham already stands in the proudest situation to which a commoner can aspire. Distinguished as he has been so remarkably by the choice of the first county of England, and endowed as he is with such unrivalled powers of doing service to his country, by devising and promoting the most important reforms, he will, in our opinion, be more useful and more illustrious, having rejected the trammels of office, and will have greater influence and power for the accomplishment of his high objects in the House of Commons. Yorkshire will have increased reason to be proud of her Representative, if he should persist in declining a seat in the Cabinet, to which his talents and public services so well entitle him, for the sake of more freely and unreservedly devoting himself to the great causes to which he stands pledged. As an independent Member of the House of Commons, supporting or opposing Ministers as their measures deserve, he would hold the balance of parties, and might compel the Administration to do its duty to the country. Mr. Brougham's motion for Parliamentary Reform, which was to have been made on Tuesday, has been put off till next Thursday, owing to the inconvenience of discussing so important a measure whilst the country is without a Ministry. He declares his fixed determination to bring it on on that day, ' whatever may be the circumstances of the country, and whosoever may be Minister.' We rejoice in this announcement, and have great hopes that this motion will be carried." Now what, he must ask, was the meaning of these declarations on the part of the noble and learned Lord? Had the noble and learned Lord been neglected? or, which was worse, had he been offered something which he did not think equal to his high deserts and to his splendid abilities? Was that the case? and were these declarations intended as a menace, or as a spur to the lazy gratitude of the new First Lord of the Treasury? If so, then let him ask what confidence could be reposed in an Administration which could be influenced by such motives and swayed by such means? If, on the other hand, the noble and learned Lord was perfectly sincere when he made these declarations, then he must contend that it was highly important to the House and to the country,; that an explanation should be given of the circumstances which had caused so great an alteration in the views of the noble and learned Lord. He repeated, that he was; ready to believe that a satisfactory explanation might be given on this point; but he must again say, that it appeared to him that until such an explanation were given, the character of the noble and learned Lord would be under a cloud.

said, he begged that no hon. Member would suppose that he; rose to give the explanation which the hon. Gentleman had demanded. He did not rise to give any such explanation, for, even if he had one to give, he should withhold it from a Gentleman who certainly was not entitled to call for it. Still less was he influenced in rising by a desire to vindicate the character of his noble and learned friend (Lord Brougham) for sure he was, that the character of his noble and learned friend needed no vindication from him or from any other man, either here or elsewhere; but, above all, here, in a place of which he had been the highest ornament and the chiefest boast. No; the brilliant and powerful eloquence of his noble and learned friend —the services which he had rendered to the people, both in that House and out of it—and the services which he would render to the people in the high station to which he had been so deservedly raised— these would vindicate the character of his noble and learned friend—these would protect the character of his noble and learned friend from assaults, however disinterested, however pure, and however powerful. And if the character of his noble and learned friend had these substantial and impregnable grounds of defence, he was quite sure that hon. Members would think, and justly think, that if he attempted to shield his noble and learned friend from the assaults of the hon. Member opposite, he should be embarking upon a very unnecessary undertaking. The hon. Gentleman had said, that the circumstances attending the appointment of his noble and learned friend might be capable of explanation, and that he was ready to hear that explanation, either now or at any future time. This, coming from such a quarter, was a very extraordinary admission; for he would venture to assert that, to say nothing of the irregular and disorderly character of the speech of the hon. Gentleman, which, from the beginning of it to the end, was composed of nothing but violations of the rules and orders of that House, and which, considered in that light, was, for the disorder and irregularity of it, unprecedented in the annals of Parliamentary offences; he would, he repeated, venture to say, that any honourable and fair dealing man, who could admit that the circumstances alluded to might be capable of explanation, must at the same time be of opinion that nothing could be more improper than to seize upon an occasion like the present for the purpose of making such a speech as that which they had heard from the hon. Gentleman,—a speech which was replete with insinuations and imputations of the most grave character. and which could not be, and were perhaps not intended to be, the less injurious because coupled with the petty. paltry admission, that the circumstances might be explained. It was to give vent to the feelings which this extraordinary speech had excited, that he now rose; for the speech was alike extraordinary and indefensible, if the hon. Gentleman who had made it was sincere in supposing it possible that the circumstance of this case could by possibility be explained. If such an explanation could be given, who were the persons, the only persons, that could give it? Why, the colleagues of his noble and learned friend; and they, he need not tell the hon. Gentleman, were not present. Was it fair, then, in the absence of those who, being the only persons who were acquainted with the communications that had passed upon the subject, were obviously the only persons who could give an explanation which the hon. Gentleman, with seeming candour, admitted might be possible:—was it fair, he would ask, in the absence of these persons, to make this attack? How happened it that the hon. Gentleman had chosen such an opportunity of making this assault—an opportunity which, by his own showing, was the most improper? He denied, however, that any explanation was due under the circumstances which the hon. Gentleman had laid down as the grounds on which he called for explanation. Was the House to call for communications that had passed between the Crown and persons who had been intrusted with the formation of new Administrations—communications than which none could be of more delicate or a more secret nature? Yet these communications, and nothing else, would afford that explanation which the hon. Gentleman demanded. If the hon. Gentleman meant to say, that he would be satisfied with less than this, —that he would take as true the assertion of honourable men, that new circumstances had occurred which caused his noble and learned friend to depart from his former purpose, and that he would be content with a bare statement of the nature of these circumstances, if, he said, the hon. Gentleman meant to take this ground, still it would furnish him with no defence, no excuse, for the conduct he had pursued that night; because all those persons who could satisfy the demands of the hon. Gentleman were unavoidably absent from the House. He need not repeat, that he thought it quite unnecessary that any such explanation should be given to the hon. Gentleman; but his object was to show that, even upon his own case, the speech of the hon. Gentleman was altogether indefensible. The words which the hon. Gentleman had quoted as those which had been used in that House by his noble and learned friend were not according to his recollection,—were not, as he should be ready to swear if called upon to swear, to the best of his recollection,—the words which had fallen from his noble and learned friend on the occasion alluded to. He was not called upon to state wherein the difference between him and the hon. Gentleman, on this point, consisted; but the very fact of the difference existing at all demonstrated the wisdom of that rule of the House which forbade the expressions used by an hon. Member in one debate to be quoted against him in another debate; and this was one of the many irregularities into which the hon. Gentleman had been led that evening;. He said many irregularities, which was a very mild expression; to call the hon. Gentleman's speech a disorderly speech would be saying very little, for it was a congeries of offences against the rules and orders of the Parliament. Not contented with his own breaches of order, the hon. Gentleman had quoted an anonymous correspondent of a Yorkshire newspaper, in which the words of a Member of that House were set down and commented upon; and in which there was related, on the authority of some prying person, the gossip of the roping room;—which the anonymous correspondent of the Yorkshire editor called the "counsel-room,"— but which was, in fact, the place where gentlemen of the Bar put on and put off their wigs and gowns. He was the last man, he trusted, in that House to narrow liberty of this nature out of doors; but it did appear to him to be improper, in the highest degree, to quote within the walls of that House such an authority, for the unworthy purpose of injuring the character of the Lord High Chancellor of England. Such conduct he would not attempt to characterize as it deserved; but this he would say of it,— namely, that he believed it was unparalleled in the conduct of any man who had ever thought himself obliged to go into the hottest, the most violent, and the most uncompromising opposition. One other observation, and he had done. He begged, that in considering this subject, hon. Members would recollect the day which the hon. Gentleman had chosen for this insidious, this indefensible, and this as the hon. Gentleman admitted it might turn out to be, unfounded attack. It was the day on which his noble and learned friend, vested with the highest judicial functions of the realm, had entered upon the administration of justice, and the exercise of the important duties which had devolved upon him. The hon. Gentleman admitted that the observations he had made were calculated to injure and to degrade the character of the Lord Chancellor in the eyes of the people, unless a certain explanation were given; and that explanation the hon. gentleman well knew could be given only by particular persons, who for some time to come could not by possibility make their appearance in that House.

begged to assure hon. Members that he had come down to the House that evening without the slightest knowledge that such a discussion as the present would arise, but that he had determined, when ever the opportunity should present itself, to give vent to the expression of his opinion on this subject. He should think himself unworthy of the seat he filled in that House if he kept within his own breast the feelings with which he had heard of the appointment of the noble and learned Lord. Those feelings were not unmingled with regret—with regret that one of the sources of brilliant eloquence, of extensive knowledge, and of profound wisdom, was dried up to that House. His regret, however, was heightened by other circumstances. He had had the fortune to be an auditor of the two declarations which the noble and learned Lord had made with regard to the new Administration, and if he had misunderstood those declarations, he could only attribute it to that obtuseness of intellect which the noble and learned Lord, while a Member of that House, was accustomed to attribute to such Members of the House as happened to differ from him. That noble and learned Lord used to tell the country Gentlemen and other Mem- bers of that House, that they could hardly count ten upon their fingers, and that he looked upon them as little better than dolts and blockheads. Now, he had not the vanity;—the presumption—to suppose himself excluded from the list of dolts and blockheads; and he attributed it to the fact of his being- such a person, that he had, as a plain man, misunderstood the noble and learned Lord's declarations, He did believe, he must confess, that when the noble and learned Lord made those declarations, no man could more distinctly and explicitly have intimated that he had altogether sacrificed office; and, with this belief, he could not delay informing the noble and learned Lord by: this, the only means in his power, of what interpretation he had put upon the words uttered by that noble and learned Lord. He did not demand any explanation; but ' at the same time he thought it right to state, that, in his opinion, the most serious consequences would result if no explanation were given, among which consequences, this certainly would be one— namely, detriment to the character of a great public officer.

said, that he looked upon this discussion as altogether irrelevant; but, as it had arisen, he could not refrain from making one observation. If it were thought, that an explanation was necessary, he must say, that he could not consider it either a manly or a sensible course to demand that explanation in the absence of the only persons who could give it. Whatever declarations might have been attributed to his noble and learned friend, he, believed that the noble Lord who spoke last would admit that it had never been imputed to his noble and learned friend, that he had said he should be mad to accept the office of Lord Chancellor. And yet such a declaration, made by another noble individual, with regard to another office, which the same noble individual did nevertheless afterwards accept, had not been considered by the noble Lord who spoke last as any detriment to the character of that noble individual; nor had the noble Lord thought that inconsistency any ground for want of confidence.

said, that as a Yorkshire man he must express the regret he felt at the noble and learned Lord having seceded from that honour which he had described in one of his speeches in Yorkshire as a pinnacle which was much too high for him to look down from. He believed that the same regret was felt throughout Yorkshire. The people of Yorkshire had entertained the most sanguine hopes of the success of their distinguished Member's exertions in the cause of reform; but when the projected reform was brought forward, he feared that those hopes would be sadly disappointed. This, however, would not have been the case if the noble and learned Lord had remained in that House; and he must say, that he deeply lamented the time and the circumstances in which that distinguished person had allowed himself to be seduced from the commanding eminence which he occupied in that House. This was the place in which his transcendent abilities were wanted. The noble and learned Lord, when a Member of that House, had often told them of another place, from which they had little to expect, and yet he had gone to that place, never more to return. He believed, from his heart, that that noble and learned person would perform the duties of Lord Chancellor with credit to himself, and with the highest satisfaction to the country. The change, however, had been too hurried. If he (Lord Brougham) had remained there—the member for Yorkshire,—until he had fulfilled his pledges and redeemed his promises, by carrying through the House his important motions respecting Negro Slavery and Reform in Parliament, —if he had done this, he might have retired to the place he now occupied; and if he had so retired, his appointment would have been hailed with the acclamations of his friends, while his elevation would have added new luster to the high office of Lord Chancellor, for he would have carried with him the gratitude and the respect of millions.

said, that he should not have troubled the House with any observations on this subject if it had not been for the sneer—the indecent sneer— which the noble Lord (Morpeth) opposite had thrown out, and in consequence of which he felt it his duty to rise in defence of the noble person against whom that sneer was directed. Notwithstanding that indecent sneer,— notwithstanding the bitter malice and the sneers with which the Duke of Wellington had been assailed —malice and sneers which he despised,— notwithstanding these, the character of the Duke of Wellington must and ever would stand high in the history of this country. The sacrifice of patronage, the large retrenchments, the great measure of Catholic Emancipation, which had characterized the Administration of the Duke of Wellington, would hereafter receive the praise they merited from the historian, and the gratitude of the public now, in spite of the sneers of Lordlings. [Loud cries of "Order," and" Chair, chair," and the Speaker immediately rose]. He begged pardon: it must be evident that he was speaking with considerable warmth; he had been carried too far, but, perceiving his error, he would not lose a moment in retracting it, and he begged leave, very sincerely, to apologize, both to the House and to the noble Lord. All he meant to say was, that the character of the Duke of Wellington stood too high to be injured by sneers, no matter from what quarter they might proceed.

was sure that the sentiments which had fallen from the gallant Officer were extremely creditable to him. The warmth with which he had defended his friend, and the candour with which he had instantly retracted a hasty expression—candour which in him could not be mistaken,— were alike honourable to the gallant officer. The observations which had fallen from his noble friend, the member for Yorkshire, and to which the gallant officer had referred, had been made in reply to a sneer from the other side of the House. He agreed with the gallant officer that many of the measures carried by the Duke of Wellington's Administration had been of a most excellent description, and he would instance, amongst others, the great measure of Catholic Emancipation. The noble Duke deserved the gratitude of the country for having, by the carrying of that measure, saved the country from that civil war to which it was exposed a year and a half ago, and that deed reflected greater glory on his name than all his splendid military achievements on the continent of Europe. There were many circumstances to justify the conduct of the noble Lord upon whom an attack had been made that evening. There were but a few days for deliberation, and that at a time when one Ministry was about being formed—when another had just been dissolved;—a time when great agitation prevailed, and when the country required a strong and efficient Ministry to conduct the government of the State; at such a period a few days were as great and as momentous in events as months would be at another period. It was not by the clock they should measure the importance of the changes which might take place in such an interval. He owed no political allegiance to the noble Lord who had been transferred to another place, but as a Member of that House, he could not banish from his memory the extraordinary eloquence of that noble person within those walls — an eloquence which left nothing equal to it behind; and when he beheld the departure of that great man from amongst them, and when he saw the place in which he usually sat, and from which he had so often astonished them by the mighty powers of his mind, occupied in such an exceedingly different manner that evening by the hon. Member who had commenced this Debate, he could not express the feelings and the emotions to which such circumstances gave rise. Was that a time when an attack should be thus made upon the noble Lord in question, and under such circumstances, too, when perhaps no hon. Member present was in possession of the reasons which had influenced that noble Lord in accepting office? Was that a time for a Member of that House, who would sooner have burned his tongue than have made such an attack in the presence of that noble person, thus to attack him behind his back? [" Order, order"]

interposed, and called the hon. Member to order.

begged pardon of the House if he had said any thing which was out of order. He never meant to say, that any feelings of personal fear would prevent any Gentleman opposite from pursuing such a course. He never considered that it was through the means of personal fear, or intimidation, that that noble Lord had exercised such an extraordinary power as he did in that House. While he sat there, however, there were few present who would venture to make such an attack upon him. Now that he had gone from amongst them, was that the befitting time for an attack to be made upon him by those who, while he was there, dreaded the sarcastic powers of his extraordinary eloquence, and prudently shunned the encounter? He could only deplore that he had not the tongue of that great man to defend him.

had not uttered any sneer against the noble Duke, whom he highly respected, and he applauded the warmth with which that noble person's friends were ready to defend him. What he had said was, that the noble Duke had made a declaration against taking office, stronger than that of his noble friend, and that had not lost him the confidence of his friends.

likewise explained. He had, he said, never shrunk from an encounter with the noble Lord in question, from a fear of his sarcastic powers. He had sat in that House for many years, and he remembered that upon one occasion he had a warmer discussion with that noble Lord than he ever had with any other man in the world.

disclaimed any thing like personal feeling in the observations which he had made.

defended the conduct of the Duke of Wellington. When the history of that noble Duke should come to be told, the errors which he had committed would be attributed to the circumstance of his having been badly surrounded. He did not require a better proof of that than was to be found in the conduct of the hon. Gentleman opposite that evening.

said, that he had been instrumental, with others, in obtaining the return of Mr. Brougham, now Lord Brougham, for Yorkshire, and he could assure the House, that the people of Yorkshire would be delighted when they heard of that noble Lord's appointment to his present high office; and he was certain that nothing would give them more satisfaction than that it was upon their chosen Representative the choice of the Crown had fallen in this instance.

presented a Petition from the town of Leeds, praying for the Abolition of Negro Slavery. The Petition was signed by the Mayor, the Vicar, and upwards of 15,000 of the principal inhabitants in every branch of business, and of every denomination, in that populous and wealthy town. The noble Lord trusted that we had now a Government which would look this important question in the face. He (Lord Mor- peth) was determined to give his support —a cordial though a constitutional support —to the present Government, because he hoped that it would be distinguished at home for measures of sound, salutary, and useful reform, and retrenchment; and that abroad its conduct would be described by the single word "peace." He also confidently hoped, that the present Government would exercise a proper vigilance, and adopt efficient measures for putting down the disturbances in the country: at the same time he thought the local gentry and yeomanry in those districts had a duty to discharge, and a part to perform, as well as Government.

concurred with the noble Lord in thinking that it was the duty of his Majesty's Government to look this important question in the face—a question which involved the happiness and well-being of 800,000 of our fellow-creatures.

supported the prayer of the petition. He had that day attended a large meeting of West-India proprietors, and the general sense of the persons present was, that the whole subject should be brought fairly before the country in all its relations.

thought, that few petitions ever presented to that House were more deserving of the fullest consideration, with respect to the subject of it, and to those from whom it emanated. He trusted, that the whole state of the colonies would be fully gone into. Justice as well as humanity demanded and he was sure that he spoke the sense of all the petitioners when he said, that the inquiry ought to be conducted with calmness, and a firm determination to injure no one.

condemned the wild and visionary philanthropy which would emancipate the slaves before they were fit for freedom. He wanted to know what indemnity was to be granted to the West India proprietors; and maintained, that the condition of negro slaves was preferable to that of the peasantry of the United Kingdom. He should oppose any measure for emancipation which did not give compensation to the West-India proprietors.

said, that the noble Lord who had presented the Petition had not confined himself to the condition of the slaves, but had alluded to the whole policy of the Government. There was one subject upon which he (General Gascoyne) would take the present opportunity of expressing himself. He alluded to reform, and he would now say, that to any system of moderate reform he should not make any objection. He wished to know from the noble Lord whether or not he had taken up the question since it had been abandoned by the learned and noble Lord who was the noble Lord's colleague.

thought, that it would be a miserable expedient to postpone a settlement of the subject. Sufficient dependence had already been placed upon the professions of the colonial legislatures with respect to preparing the slave-population for free labour. He wished the question not to be decided on any abstract principles, but by a determination to do justice to all the parties interested. He did not believe slavery was so delightful as some hon. Members represented it; and it was nothing but cruel bondage. He wished by no means to do any injury to the West India proprietors; but he must protest against the question being indefinitely postponed in deference to their fears.

deeply regretted that a question of such magnitude should be discussed at all, especially so warmly, upon the mere incidental point whether a petition should be laid upon the Table. The subject ought to be looked at with the eyes of statesmen, and not with those of factious partisans. His being a West Indian land-owner himself should never deter him from speaking his sentiments on the subject, though he had never, and he never would countenance abuses of any kind. Affected religion and bastard morality had been called in to aid the cause of the antagonists of slavery, and to destroy the sacred and recognised rights of property in the West-Indies. He only wished to add, that the West-India interests, tired of having the question so long hanging over their heads, were now anxious that it should be brought forward in some shape or other. All they asked was an honest, impartial, and liberal inquiry into the actual condition of the slaves and of the colonies.

denied, that pretended religion or illegitimate humanity had produced the strong feeling prevailing in the three kingdoms against slavery; he denied also, that even an Irish peasant, wretched as he was, would consent for a moment to change places with a negro, who might receive thirty-nine lashes at the will of a man, woman, or child, and who might be torn from his wife and family, that he might be sold to pay his master's debts.

said, that if the condition of the peasantry of Great Britain were worse than that of slaves in the West Indies, it was indeed high time for the House to inquire into the sufferings of the labouring poor.

wished to understand from the hon. Member who had attended the meeting of West-India Proprietors this day (Mr. K. Douglas), whether they were ready to enter fairly and honestly upon the whole question of the abolition of Slavery?

moved that the House, at its rising, should adjourn to Thursday. There was nothing on the papers of the House for Wednesday but the Colonial Trade Bill, and it would be most convenient that public business should not be proceeded with until the return of those Gentlemen who had recently vacated their seats upon taking office. He had no doubt that many persons concerned in Election Petitions, or in Private Bills, would be desirous of a longer adjournment; but, after the decision to which the House had come the other evening, he did not feel it his duty to call for a longer adjournment.

thought, that after the decisions to which they had come respecting the despatch of business, it was to be regretted, that any postponement should be required. Thursday was fixed for the Ballot for three Committees, and on that occasion it would be necessary that 180 Members be present. Otherwise the House must adjourn, and adjournments must be repeated de die in diem. Now, for his part, he did not wish to be an alarmist; but he would say that, in the present state of things in several parts of the country, there were many hon. Gentlemen in that House whose duty required them to be elsewhere to watch over the tranquillity of their own districts. He had already, on a former occasion, expressed his opinion, that everything ought to be done by the House to enable Gentlemen to attend to that important duty; but. the House had come to a contrary decision, and he feared that the result would be, great inconvenience to the House, and to those interested in Election Petitions.

protested against further alteration. When the House had on two occasions decided that it would proceed at once to the consideration of the Petitions on Elections, any postponement would occasion excessive inconvenience and expense to those parties who had made arrangements, founded upon the Resolutions of the House. He hoped that his hon. friend (Mr. Rice) would not move for any further postponement. He was desirous that on the evening fixed for the ballot, they should be able to assemble a sufficient number of Members. If that should not be the case, and, consequently, repeated delay should be occasioned, he thought it would be necessary to resort to a call of the House.

was of opinion, that there would be no necessity for further postponement. His hon. friend (Mr. S. Wortley) seemed to him to consider the difficulty which the House might meet with, in proceeding with Election Petitions, greater than it really could be. By a late Act of Parliament, it had been enacted that 100 Members were sufficient to make a House for the ballot. Therefore, he did not fear that they should fail in assembling a sufficient number. For his part, he would attend regularly.

explained, that when there were ballots to be taken for three Committees, the presence of 180 Members was necessary; if for two Committees, 120 Members must be present; if for but one Committee, 100 Members, as the hon. Baronet had stated, were sufficient.

said, that he had voted against delay; and now that the House had decided that the Petitions should be proceeded with immediately, he was of opinion that postponement repeated from day to day, would inflict injustice on persons concerned in the petitions.

said, that if Petitions were not pending, he might not have departed from the course usually pursued on occasions of such change as had just the taken place in the relations in which some Members stood towards the country and the Government. It was by no means unusual to ask for an adjournment of several days. Certainly it was not unreasonable to ask for a delay from that to Thursday. It was his intention to move on that day for a further adjournment to the following Tuesday, and then again to Thursday. On the last-mentioned day he should move an adjournment to whatever time might then seem necessary to allow all those Members who had accepted office to be re-elected.

was aware of the excessive inconvenience occasioned by the discussion of questions connected with the public business, in the absence of Members of the House, who were also members of his Majesty's Government. He could not, therefore, hesitate to acquiesce in the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite; and he thought it right that the days fixed for the sittings of the House should be those for taking into consideration Election Petitions. As there could be but one opinion, respecting the propriety of accommodating the Gentlemen "now sitting at the other side of the House," he expressed his entire acquiescence in the Motion.

took that opportunity of asking his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Spring Rice) whether the office of Master-general of the Ordnance had yet been filled up? And also, whether it was the intention of the Government to appoint a Lieutenant general of the Ordnance?

was not yet certain that the office of Master of the Ordnance had been filled up; but with respect to that of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance, he knew there was no intention of filling it at present,

hoped, that the new Ministry would consider how unnecessary and how excessive was the expense occasioned to the country by the Board of Control, and determine not to continue it. He had great objection to numerous Boards, and still greater objections to the changes that were continually made in them. He was of opinion that if the Board of Control was necessary, no one could be fitter for the office than Sir James Mackintosh. His observation was intended to be general, and he must say, it seemed to him as if these offices were kept only for the sake of patronage. With the exception of changing the Lord Chancellor with every Ministry, which was abominable; he knew nothing more mischievous than the frequent changes of the public Boards, to answer the purposes of Ministerial patronage. The interest of nearly 100,000,000 persons was intrusted to the Board of Control, and it ought, therefore, to be constituted of persons of great eminence, talents and practice, not removable at the pleasure of the Administration. He did not make this remark as an objection to the present Ministry, but as stating a general principle that ought to be followed.

presented a Petition from the labourers of the town and neighbourhood of Tipperary, praying for legislative relief in their great distress. The Petition, the hon. Member said, was most numerously signed, but couched in language the most temperate, and evinced much of that forbearance which characterizes the Irish peasant in the midst of all privations. The petitioners complained of a total want of employment for six months in the year, of the high rent of land, and of the weight of local taxation. Either of these causes was adequate to produce much misery, and, unfortunately, they were usually combined in the most fertile portions of the island. The extensive coast of Connaught and Munster exhibited an excess of wretchedness unparalleled even in the most degraded parts of continental Europe; but from this taint scarcely any portion of the country was totally exempted. Few counties in Ireland could boast a larger share of natural advantages than the county which he represented—the fertility of its soil was, even in Ireland, proverbial—yet the common cause of pauperism there, as elsewhere was uncorrected by the bounties of nature, or the anxious efforts of a patient and energetic population. In the town of Tipperary there was formerly a small but thriving manufacture of woollens, which, from the rapid superiority to which the same manufacture has attained in another country, has been totally extinguished. It supported a very considerable portion of the industrious classes, who were now, as in so many instances in Ireland, thrown exclusively on the land. The competition for land had so augmented rent, that, in the neighbourhood of that town, no less than 12l.or 13l. per acre was paid. When to this was added the burthens of local taxation, county or Grand-jury cesses, church rates, &c, scarcely sufficient was left for the mere sustenance of the lowest state of animal existence. The Petitioners stated, that even these sacrifices they would willingly submit to, were they convinced that, by what was wrung from their hard earnings, any equivalent was returned to the cultivator—but it was a vicious circle throughout—great distress produced proportionate discontent; discontent required a larger mass of physical force to control it; and the support of this physical force, necessary to the Government, drew still deeper upon the energies and gains of the peasant, augmented his distress, and would continue to augment it, until at last swelling beyond all bounds, it would overflow every dyke which mere coercion can raise against it. That Ireland had been rapidly advancing to a state of things, appalling to every eye which looked beyond the present was unhappily too notorious. The only question was, by what means the Legislature, could stay the giant evil in its terrific progress, and step in between the country and revolution by a salutary reform, which would not dally about the high places of society, but go to the root of the whole evil. Petitions like this gave a plain representation of the moral cancer which was feeding on the country. They invoked the Legislature in time to lay its healing hand on the disease; it was spreading over the sound parts—a few years longer, and it would defy remedies—and the Legislature would be in time only to witness the dissolution. What did the petitioners demand? It would be well for hon. Gentlemen, who, night after night, proclaimed in terms alarming to the boldest politician, the disorganized state of counties in the immediate neighbour hood of the metropolis,—it would be well for those hon. Gentlemen, usually so loud when any symptoms of a similar disease shewed itself on the surface in Ireland, to contrast the character and causes of these disorders in both countries. Whence arose the turbulence of Kent, Sussex, Hants, and Surrey? From the same causes as similar tumults had arisen in Ireland— want of employment, high rents, and enormous taxation. But what a difference in the demands of the labourers in the two countries The petitioners here wished to force the farmer to give them from 2s. 3d. to 2s. 6d. wages: the petitioners whose prayer had just been heard declared themselves willing to work for 6d. only. They felt that discontent and distress walked together—that idleness led to disorder— that the unoccupied hand would at last grasp the midnight torch—and that crime and bloodshed, and anarchy, would take the place which Government was preparing for them. His Majesty's present Ministers had professed, when on the other side of the House, an anxiety to attend to the wants of Ireland: they had now the power, as they had then the wish. A more glorious task never awaited any Administration. The support which they could hope from the Members for Ireland must depend upon their attention to the interests of Ireland; but that attention, if not given instantly, might as well not be given at all. To provide employment for the poor should be the first principle of the Government; and until measures were brought forward for that purpose, it would be vain to talk of the pacification, because it would be vain to talk of the prosperity of Ireland.

was afraid, that the hon. Member had imposed an impossible task on the Government, in calling on it to provide employment for the unemployed poor in Ireland. It seemed to him a prevalent error with Gentlemen from the other side of the water, to suppose that the evils complained of in Ireland could be removed by the introduction of a Bill into that House. Nothing could be more erroneous than such an opinion. He believed that a commutation of tithes, and the placing Church property on the same footing as other property, would have the effect of giving employment to the great majority of the poor of Ireland. He hoped, therefore, that some measure of this kind would be introduced by Government; and if it were supported by the hon. Members for Ireland, it would do more towards relieving that country than any plan which he had yet heard advocated for the employment of the working classes.

expressed his approbation of the valuable observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Tipperary, and he hoped that he would take every opportunity of drawing the attention of the House and the Government to the situation of Ireland, and to the means of ameliorating the condition of the people. If the hon. member for Middlesex would excuse him, he would take the liberty of telling him, that there were many things which would be of material consequence to the well-being of Ireland with which he seemed to be unacquainted. He knew that that hon. Gentleman was desirous of doing everything in his power for the improvement of Ireland, but the remedies he recommended would not produce the result he wished for. There were many other things which affected the comfort and happiness of the people, besides the tithes and Church-rates. The local payments were, perhaps, more burthensome than the general taxes. He hoped that the immediate attention of the Government would be directed to improve the state of Ireland; and Ministers might be assured, that they would meet with an ample reward in the increased loyal feelings of the people. The local taxes were peculiarly oppressive; and in the county of Londonderry, many respectable farmers whose condition had been above mediocrity —were now reduced to poverty by the operation of these rates. Sums to a very large amount were annually collected in Ireland from the farmer, which in England were derived from other sources. There were many farmers who had to pay more than the amount of their rent in local taxes, called grand Jury assessments; which were devoted to purposes never thought of in this country. The assessment last year amounted to not less than 20s. an acre in the district of Magherafelt, in the county of Londonderry. The sum paid as tithes in no part of the north of Ire land was equal to that? If these rates were laid out in improving the country, there would be some remuneration to the farmer; but the larger portion was expended in a manner which could not be of the least service to him. The expenses of the County Infirmary and Hospital, and other institutions were paid out of these funds. To the farmer, those institutions, however excellent, were of no use, and that he was obliged to support them was one of the great grounds of complaint, which something must be done to relieve. With regard to the observation of the hon. Member respecting tithes and Church property, he could not agree with him that they were oppressive, or that their abolition would be such a material benefit to the farmer. At the same time he was prepared to admit, that great good had been derived from the operation of the Tithes Composition Act; he could assure the hon. Member, that in the part of the country to which he belonged, the conduct of the clergy was marked with the utmost forbearance and humanity, and that there was nothing oppressive in their mode of collecting tithes. Tithes were not nearly so oppressive as the County cess. Whatever might be the practice in other parts of the country, tithes were there only paid on corn and hay, and none were levied on green crops. Tithes were never taken on turnips, potatoes, or any other green crops in the county of Londonderry. The situation of the farmer was, however, such, that every payment was felt by him; though hardly any rate was so little oppressive as tithes. Distress prevailed to a very considerable extent in the north of Ireland, and until means were found of procuring employment for the people, little could be done for their advantage. Until inducements could be held out to capitalists to embark their money in establishing manufactures in that country, little could be done for the improvement of the people. He was not willing to adopt the opinions of political economists respecting a superabundant population existing in Ireland; yet he could not disguise from himself that capital and population did not bear a proper proportion to each other. Some of the important manufactures of Ireland were completely gone to decay, in consequence of the policy adopted by this country. The linen-trade, formerly the staple of Ireland, had for some time been on the decline, and was fast falling into decay. It supported a vast number of persons in the north of Ireland in comparative comfort, and nearly all the peasantry in those districts were enabled to pay their rent by growing flax. The introduction of foreign flax, and the importation of foreign linen, had almost driven the trade from those districts. In consequence, the condition of the farmers and the labouring population of the north of Ireland was much deteriorated. Unless means were adopted to improve the trade, the distress would increase-. At present most of the peasantry, in consequence of these circumstances, were unable to pay their rents. He did not mean to assert that a change in the commercial policy of England was not necessary, but it had been attended with the most disastrous results in Ireland. He trusted that the attention of the new Government would be directed to that part of the empire, and that its resources would be made available for the general good. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that it was not men but measures which the country desired. The new Administration he hoped would produce a change in the artificial state of that country, in which there was an appearance of great wealth, surrounded by the reality of the most squalid poverty. The misery of the poorer classes far surpassed anything to be seen in any other part of the world. He believed that his Majesty's Ministers wished to do something for Ireland, and if he saw them inclined to do that, they should have his humble support. If they pursued a system of strict retrenchment, they would find that the greater portion of the Irish Members would side with them. Notwithstanding the distress prevailing in Ireland, the spirit of discontent was not manifested nearly to the same extent there as in other parts of his Majesty's dominions. In that country, and especially in the north, obedience was shewn to the laws; and he was satisfied, that a very little exertion on the part of the House, would excite a feeling of gratitude in the peasantry of Ireland, which would be attended with the most happy results. With the improvement of the condition of the people, there would be an increased feeling of respect for the laws and the Constitution, and all classes increase in brotherly love and affection.

said, he concurred with the hon. member for Middlesex, that it would not be in the power of the new Administration—it was not, indeed, in the power of any Administration—to create employment for the people. The truth was, that a Government could rarely do good in matters of this kind, though it might do harm by interference. The hon. Member, however, went on to state another proposition, apparently in contradiction to his first; namely, that one of the measures by which the situation of Ireland could be ameliorated would be, by some Act on our part, to place Church property there on the footing of other property. Upon this subject he would only say, that he was not aware that any such measure was necessary, or that Church property was placed on any other footing than lay property. Both rested on the same laws, and must stand or fall together.

observed, that the statements of this petition was so very extraordinary, particularly when connected with the speeches of the hon. Member who presented it, and of the hon. Member on the same bench with him, that he wished for some slight explanation of allegations which he scarcely thought it possible he could correctly have understood. The petition stated, that land in Tipperary was let for the incredible sum of 13l. per acre —that the people were totally unemployed, and in the last state of destitution. The hon. member for Tipperary stated, that these poor persons only asked for employment, and were willing to labour for 6d. a-day; and he went on to say, that his support, and the support of the Members for Ireland, would depend on the new Government affording, or not affording, to the people of Ireland that employment; and, of course, paying those sixpences. The other hon. Member stated, that the main grievance of Ireland was the amount of the Grand Jury assessments, which, in some instances, rose to 20s. per acre; that is, those very men who, as landholders, exact from a population, said to be in the extremest poverty, the most enormous rents, do, as grand Jurors, lay these additional assessments on the tenantry—and then come to England to demand employment and pay for their people, and seek to redress all Irish grievances by Act of Parliament. In point of fact, the only bond of union which existed amongst Irish Members of all descriptions, in that House, the only thing, be they of what party they might, in which they all agreed, was, that the opulent amongst the Irish, and the Irish proprietors, were never to be taxed, either for national purposes, or for the support of their own people—that England was to pay everything—and that every oppression, and all suffering consequent on it, which took place in Ireland, was, under every change of Administration, invariably to be charged on the Government of England.

perfectly agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that it was not in the power of either the Government or the Parliament to remedy the evils of Ireland, by the enactment of any measure, such as those in question, but he believed that it was in the power of the Government to produce a more healthy ratio of population to employment than at present existed there. That could only be done by relieving the land of those great masses of pauper population which were at present subsisted on it. If this evil were remedied, it would not be difficult to prevent a similar increase of the people. He was satisfied that if all the revenues of the Irish Church were confiscated, they would go but a little way to find employment for the destitute population; and he was decidedly opposed to any such measure, as it would occasion much evil. With respect to the new Administration, he must observe, that if they only fulfilled one-third of the promises held out, they would satisfy the people of Ireland.

observed, in explanation, that what he said was, that the County-cess, in many districts, amounted to 20s. an acre, while the rent was not more than 30s. an acre. The cess was not the act of the landlord. The Judge directed the grand Jury to make certain assessments, which they are bound to do, by virtue of their Oath. They were compelled by the law, as laid down by the Judges, to allow certain charges, and it was the law, therefore, which was oppressive.

expressed his regret that a discussion of this importance should be entered into in the then thin state of the House, and that such subjects had so little interest for hon. Members.

wished to explain, that he did not state, as the hon. member for Newton seemed to suppose, that the rent of land in the county of Tipperary, was 12l. or 13l. an acre; but that the petitioners stated, that they, at present paid that rent for small portions of land in the neighbour hood of Tipperary. At the same time, he could safely declare that this was not a singular case; potatoe ground being leased in every part of Ireland at nearly as high a rate. This high price of land did not arise from the exorbitancy of landlords, but from an unnatural and pernicious competition, the consequence of the want of manufactures or other outlets for the industry and intelligence of the community, Landlords could not control the market, and were as much affected by this state of things as the peasants themselves. The hon. Gentleman seemed surprised and irritated at the coalition and importunity of Irish Members whenever the subject of the wants of Ireland was brought before the House. The fault which he found was precisely the reverse. Irish Members were neither sufficiently warm nor importunate. They applied to England. and to whom else should they apply; not certainly from a feeling of inferiority, or from a spirit of servility, but from a sense that they had not been treated with justice. Why did Ireland apply?—because she was in a state of wretchedness bordering on desperation. But who and what had brought her into this state? How came it that her fields were neglected, her commerce contracted, and her manufactures quenched? It was, because, the people at large, the sinews and strength of all social improvement, were studiously shut out from a full participation in the advantages of the Constitution, and a faction, set up, in the place of the nation had availed itself of its toils, monopolized its benefits, and had left to the rest of the people nothing but the pain and difficulties of providing for the luxuries of their masters and oppressors. This policy, he rejoiced to say, though at a far too late period, had at length been changed; but its evil traces had remained. England had governed Ireland for many centuries and been the cause of its misery. Ireland now asked for no bounty, no patronage, but asked the payment of an old balance— the bringing up of an old arrear- -the atonement for past errors and past injuries. Little disposition had yet been evinced to make this honourable atonement, but the time had come when it could not and must not be delayed. The hon. member for Middlesex ridiculed the idea of a Bill to provide employment for the people being brought into the House, and pointed out an alteration in Church property as a substitute. He knew as well as that hon. Gentleman that it was not in the power of that House immediately to provide employment for the large population of Ireland; but that was no good reason why efforts should not be made to remove difficulties and to get rid of obstacles which stood in the way of finding that employment. Take off the charge of the grand Jury and tithe systems—take off the duty on coals, which operate as an actual impediment to its use in the manufactures which depend on it, and something would immediately be done to give the people employment. The Ball castle colliery was close to Dublin, but it was found cheaper to bring coals from Scotland for the Irish capital than to get them from the neighbouring colliery. There was not a steam engine employed in a single manufactory in Dublin. Government might grant the enterprising and industrious loans, repayable at a reasonable interest. That had already been advantageously done in Ireland; why not extend the scale of its operation? If found good in some instances, why not try it in others? All these were fit objects of legislative interference. Where then was the absurdity of calling on his Majesty's new Administration to bring forward bills on these and such remedial measures, if they value the good order and tranquillity, or, in other words, the prosperity— without which to think of tranquillity was an idle and pernicious dream—of a fine, fertile, but singularly-neglected country. With regard to the property of the Church, he felt with the hon. Member, that all property should be made to share the burthens of the state, and he thought it disgraceful that the Church property should be exempt from these burthens. He would not moot the question of vested rights, but would say, without fear of contradiction, that all property was held under certain conditions, and that the property of the Church was as much held under such conditions as any lay property in the country. One of these conditions was, the repair of churches; another the support of the poor: neither of these conditions, had been properly fulfilled; and the consequence was that two new taxes had been thrown on the country. The burthens had been shifted from the Church to the State, or rather, from the shoulders of a small and rich community to those of a large and starving community. This state of things he should like to see amended; but, in the interim, and in addition to such amendment, he could discover no good reason why the poor should not be employed, and our national resources raised, by the application of capital, from where they now sleep, into life and activity. He was fully persuaded of the obvious moral truth, that peace could only be maintained by actively engaging in useful works the physical and mental energies of that country; and desiring peace, he desired to see the means employed that was most likely to preserve it. The Reports of 1819, 1823, and 1830, could leave no shadow of doubt on this head. The only districts exempt from tumult in 1822 were those in which the inhabitants were fully employed. Contrast Clonakilty and Waterford, with the turbulent districts of Cork, Tipperary, and Limerick. The petition which he had presented he looked upon as a prayer for the happiness of the people at large, and the tranquillity and good order of the empire, and as such he warmly recommended it to the earnest consideration of the House.