presented a Petition from persons engaged in the retail trades of the metropolis, praying that the House would be pleased to pass a law to prevent the carrying on of those trades on a Sunday. He had felt it his duty to present the petition, but he could not concur in its prayer, for there had been already too much legislation on the subject.

agreed with the hon. Member, and should decidedly oppose any augmentation of the severity of the laws in this respect. The obvious remedy was, for masters to pay their labourers on some other day than Saturday, at an early hour on that day.

said, the existing penalties were imposed in the reign of Charles 2nd, and were perfectly inadequate to effect the proposed object. Only one penalty could be inflicted for one day, however frequent, the offence, and it was very difficult to obtain a conviction. The respectable inhabitants could prevent the practice; Islington was an example. There the parishioners had come to a resolution not to deal with parties who adopted the practice.

presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of Killasty in the county of Tipperary, praying that persons of every religious persuasion in Ireland might be compelled to pay their own clergy, and that the property in the hands of the Church might be resumed, and applied to national purposes.

begged to ask the hon. and learned member for Kerry, what he meant, or what the petitioners meant, by the Church property being resumed?

said that the British Parliament, at the period of the Reformation, had taken the Church property, and given a considerable portion to the Crown, which devised the greater part afterwards to powerful and influential persons, whose families, in many instances, enjoyed this property up to the present moment. The remainder of the Church property Parliament bestowed on the members of another Church, differing from that which originally held it. This, he contended, was the indisputable right of Parliament, and what the petitioners prayed was, that Parliament might resume the property so granted, and appropriate it to national purposes. This, however, he admitted, could not be done without great cruelty, unless an adequate provision was made for those who had taken orders in the Established Church, under the sanction of an Act of Parliament. He had given no opinion on the petition, but, being called upon by the hon. Baronet, he felt bound to say that he could see no reason why every man should not pay his clergyman precisely as he paid his physician and his lawyer; and there seemed to be no reason why property given by Parliament to the Church was not capable of being resumed.

really asked the question with a view of ascertaining the hon. and learned Member's opinion on the subject. It was quite right, and perhaps natural, for a person of the Roman Catholic persuasion to say, that he thought the property taken from the Roman Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation should now be given back to it.

protested against its being supposed that he wished the property of the Established Church to be transferred to the Catholic Clergy. He should oppose such a measure as determinedly as the hon. Baronet, for nothing would tend so much to render them useless.

said, that not being a Roman Catholic, he entertained a very strong opinion on this subject—and he found that every one out of doors had formed a strong opinion on it likewise; and it was only within the walls of Parliament that people seemed afraid to speak out. Where was the use of being mealy-mouthed on this subject? Every one knew that the clergy who were the present possessors of Church property had only a life interest in it. It was public property in every sense of the word, and it was competent for Parliament to appropriate it for the purposes of education, of religion, or in any way it thought proper.

did not rise to protract that discussion, but he wished to correct a mis-statement which had been circulated through the usual channels of information. The hon. and learned Gentleman, the member for Kerry, was represented to have said, that two-thirds of the beneficed clergy of Ireland were absentees. There were altogether in Ireland 1,295 beneficed clergy, of whom 1,192 were resident, and employed 750 curates. It was much to be regretted that such misstatements should go abroad; but the fact was, that the Church of Ireland was comparatively a helpless Church in that House. Let them beware, however, for the moment the Church of Ireland was broken down that of England would not last very long. The hon. and learned Gentleman was also represented to have said that Archdeacon Magee held no less than eleven parishes.

. Eleven livings.

The Archdeacon held the living of Wicklow, and the archdeaconry of Wicklow, the latter being a sinecure. He also had a small parish in Dublin of 150l. a year, out of which he paid a curate 100l. a year, and a small living in the county of Galway. Here, therefore, were only four livings in place of eleven. Even if he had eleven, it would not follow that they would be adequate to his support, for he knew an instance in the diocese of Clonfert of eleven vicarages, from the whole of which the clergyman derived only 114l. a year. He had in addition fifteen acres of glebe land. He would boldly assert, that there was not in existence a more laborious, pious, and zealous set of men than the Protestant clergy of Ireland. The property of the Church was as sacred as private property, and they had no more right to touch one to an the other. He trusted he never should see the day when such revolutionary protects would be for a moment listened to in that House.

said, he was neither a Catholic nor an Irishman, and he did not hesitate to declare, that matters ought not to remain as they now were in Ireland. Suppose in England two or three Roman Catholics resided in a populous parish, consisting, besides these two or three, of Protestants, what would be said if all the Protestants were taxed to support the Catholic clergyman? He had lived among Protestants and Catholics in many parts of Europe, and he was ashamed to say, that he never witnessed more contention about religion, and more bigotry, than in that House. He trusted he should not die until he saw the day when all classes of society would be treated as men, and not as Protestants or Catholics.

said, his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Lefroy) merely rose to correct a mis-statement, and he was fully justified in taking that opportunity of expressing his opinion on the sentiments expressed by the member for Kerry. He wished as much as any man to see bigotry and religious disputation excluded from the discussions of that House; but as an Irish Protestant he had a right to express his opinion as well as the hon. Baronet. The bigotry did not commence with them, but with the persons who were daily making attacks on the Irish Church.

said, that he had been charged with misrepresentation when he said Archdeacon Magee had eleven livings. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Lefroy) allowed him four. The hon. and learned Member forgot, however, that the union of Wicklow consisted of six parishes. Five, therefore, were to be added to the hon. Member's account, which made nine. Then there was the archdeaconry of Kilmacure, from which Archdeacon Magee took his title, and which made ten—and, just before his father's death, the rev. gentleman had got the golden prebend of Swords, which completed the eleven. He (Mr. O'Connell) was not less correct in his statement that two-thirds of the parishes in Ireland had not resident Rectors. There were 2,500 Catholic parish priests in Ireland, and only 1,132 resident Protestant clergy. Besides, what was called residence? Visiting a parish once a year. In the parish in which he resided there were nearly 5,000 Roman Catholics and twenty Protestants, fifteen of whom were Englishmen employed in the Coast Guard Service. The 5,000, however, paid the Rector his tithes, though he had only five Protestant parishioners. No one in the parish ever saw the Rector; but he came a distance of sixty miles at the last election to vote against him. He had heard with inexpressible delight the liberal view taken by the hon. Baronet opposite, of the relation in which Catholics stood towards the Established Church. If a colony of twenty Irish Catholics were planted in an English parish, would not the Protestant inhabitants exclaim against being taxed to support a Catholic priest, for the twenty individuals from another country, and of a different religion? There was no Englishman who would not exclaim at the existence of such a state of things; and he asked, was it unreasonable, when the people of Ireland saw that England had an Established Church professing the religion of the people, and Scotland an Established Church (differing from the Established Church of England, but professing the religion of the people), that the people of Ireland should ask—not for an Established Church—but that they should not pay a clergy, who, as they conceived, did them no service?

asked the hon. and learned member for Kerry, whether he understood him rightly that it was his object to take away the property which now goes to the maintenance of the Established Church in Ireland?

Yes, certainly.

said, his opinion decidedly was, that a portion of the Church property should be applied to the repairs of the church and the support of the poor. He regretted that Dr. Magee had acted so indiscreetly as to insist at first on a composition of 1,800l. a year for the living of Wicklow, for which he afterwards accepted of 1,500l. There was much to be corrected in the Church of Ireland.

agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that they ought not to be mealy-mouthed on this subject. He could see no reason why the Church property given to great families should not be resumed, and applied to public purposes, as well as the property now held by the Church. The hon. and learned member for Kerry informed them, that part of the property taken from the Catholic Church came into the possession of the Crown, another part fell to private individuals, and a third to the Established Church in Ireland. He thought it ought all to be resumed.

said, the prebend of Swords was not held by Archdeacon Magee. He saw no reason why Roman Catholics should not contribute to the support of the Established Church.

believed Dr. Magee had nothing to do with the prebend of Swords, and there was no cure attached to the archdeaconry. The real fact was, that two or three small chapelries were united in the union of Wicklow, each unable to support a clergyman, and that one of the sinecures of which Archdeacon Magee was accused was his archdeaconry in the county of Galway. The question was, were they to have an Established Church in Ireland or not? The member for Kerry said, let all persons pay their own clergy, as they did their physician or lawyer; but the constitution of human nature was such, that unless the State took upon itself to provide religion for its subjects, they would not seek for it. If Church property was not respected, other property would not continue long safe.

said, the Protestants of Ireland wished as much as the Catholics that some arrangement should be made with respect to Church property which would give more satisfaction. It was by the exertions of the Protestants of Wicklow that the demand of Archdeacon Magee was reduced from 1,800l. to I,100l. He regretted the intemperate language used by the Archdeacon, in a pamphlet written by him in answer to Dr. Doyle. In this pamphlet he used these words—"There is not a priest in your Church who preaches, or who can preach, the real doctrine of salvation."

said, he had the pleasure of knowing Archdeacon Magee, and he was one of the highest ornaments of the Church. Whatever doctrine he put forth, either in speech or writing, he sincerely felt, and he was more anxious for the real welfare of the people of Ireland than the loudest patriots on the other side of the House. There were, he had no doubt, Catholic gentlemen in the House who would be ready to avow this. He should not enter into the great question of the Church Establishment of Ireland; but he must express his regret, that there was no Minister present to hear the tocsin sounded against that Church, and to tell the House what advice he was prepared to give the Sovereign, in conformity with that solemn obligation into which he had lately entered. The Protestants of Ireland would not allow the Established Church of that country to be overwhelmed without a manly struggle—because it was connected with a principle which they held dear as men of conscience and character.

said: I rise, Sir, to disabuse the public mind of impressions which are sought to be made disadvantageous to the Established Church in Ireland. It is asserted that the payment of tithe is unjust and oppressive, and it is contended that persons are chargeable with the maintenance of a Church to which they do not belong. Sir, the right of the clergyman to his tithe has been uniformly acknowledged by the Legislature as anterior to that of the landlord to his rent; and this has been particularly recognised by the Tithe Composition Act, an Act of recent date. But, Sir, I contend that it is the property, and not the tenant, that pays the Church, and that the tenantry have found the lands they now hold subject to this charge on their taking them at rents; and that if tithe were abolished it would not at all relieve the occupant, but it would be added to the rent of the landlord. I do not, Sir, speak my own opinions; I have the highest authority for my assertion. The present Archbishop of Cashel, in a protracted conversation I had with his Grace, held these opinions, and quite satisfied me that the removal of tithe would fall more onerously on the tenant than the enforcement of it. Sir, the Church Establishment of Ireland has been spoken of in very offensive terms in this House; I have often listened to it with pain; it has been charged with bigotry and intolerance. Now, Sir, what is the case? The Church of Ireland is acting; on the defensive, and if ever there was a fight "pro aris et focis," that is the nature of the combat the Church of Ireland is at present engaged in. Though the Church is charged in various ways, a very large number of the clergy are now deprived of their ordinary revenues, and many clergymen are actually in a state of destitution. It has been my fate to state that on another occasion in this House. That a warfare does exist against it, that that warfare is extending, and will soon extend to rents, there cannot be any question; and that it is advanced for the purpose of destroying the Established Church, the principal link between Great Britain and Ireland, I cannot entertain a doubt.

said, if night after night attacks were made upon the Established Church, he would read the oath which Catholics had taken not to upset it, and would proceed to ulterior measures in that respect. In fact, he would re-agitate the Catholic Question from the circumference to the centre of the empire.

said, the first question here was, whether the petition of Mr. Gurney should now lie on the Table? The petition was a very long one, and could not be received without being printed. That was done, and then came the question whether this petition should be received or not, inasmuch as it complained of the decision of the Committee? That was now abandoned; and then came the question as to whether the taxing officers under the Act had or had not performed their duty in making only one of the petitioners liable to the costs, and thereby precluding him from his remedy against his co-petitioner? The Act alluded to provided for this case, and upon the report of the taxing officers, the certificate must issue as it had done in this case. By 28th George 3rd, the costs having been taxed, any one of the petitioners might be proceeded against, and by the 52nd of the same King, additional security was given for costs, and the 9th George 4th, gave a remedy against the surety who petitioned against an election, such surety being obliged to enter into a bond to the amount of 1,000l. The House should consider whether they had jurisdiction in this case, which, after all, was the first and only material question.

said, after what had fallen from Mr. Speaker, he would withdraw the petition for the present.

, as Chairman of this election, said he was glad the petition was withdrawn, for he could say, that the Committee had taken great pains in the investigation of this election.

to acknowledge to the hon. and learned member for Kerry, that he had brought this matter forward in the most candid and manly manner.

begged leave to inquire what day the noble Lord meant to fix on for the further consideration of the report on the Sugar Refining Bill. The large minority, or rather the very trifling majority, the other evening on that Bill, evinced the anxiety and necessity of a thorough discussion of its principle, and probable operation, and it was plain such a discussion could not be ensured, if the Order of the Day were moved after the House had concluded its ordinary labours, that is, at two o'clock in the morning. Hon. Members would then naturally betake themselves to repose, and the subject could not be fairly examined unless the noble Lord consented to fix a day apart for the discussion. He had an amendment to propose when the question should come before the House, to the effect that a Select Committee should inquire into the effect on the West- Indian interests of the proposed plan of home refining.

could not fix a day for the discussion, but would give due notice, so as to afford hon. Members the opportunity they desired of expressing their sentiments on the bill.

wished to know if the number of Courts of Registration in each county was to be specified. There was a provision that no one was to go more than fifteen miles to vote, but there was no regulation as to the distance persons might have to go to prove their votes. He must further observe, that there were no directions who were to attend such Courts, and no person would be able to tell what Court he was to attend.

said, he was unable to give a precise answer to his right hon. friend. The point was new—be did not remember to have heard it urged in the Committee. Upon that part of the thirty-ninth clause which directs justices of the peace in Quarter Sessions to divide their respective counties into convenient districts for polling, and to appoint in each district a convenient place for taking the poll at all future elections of knights of the shire, in such manner that no person shall have to travel more than fifteen miles from the property in respect of which he claims to vote,

said, he had great doubts whether this clause would answer its proposed purpose. If voters were to be carried fifteen miles, they would certainly require some refreshment, and they would have it, if not from the candidates themselves, from their friends and adherents. Much expense must also be incurred in carrying people that distance and back again. If the objects of economy and prevention of excitement were to be fully attained, polls must be parochial or nearly so. There were many difficulties, he confessed, in this project, but he thought it might be possible to accomplish the proposed purposes better than by the clause under consideration.

said, he must admit, that in all county elections there must be a certain expense in conveying voters, but he thought it would be very small under the new, as compared to the old system. If voters could poll in their respective parishes, he was prepared to admit that it would be an excellent arrangement; but as a set-off against travelling expenses, agents and poll-clerks must be employed in each village, and their expenses would probably exceed the expense of carriage. On the whole, therefore, he was favourable to the plan proposed in the clause, by which, even in the largest counties, no voters would have to travel a greater distance than fifteen miles, and the majority a considerably less distance; and as most county voters had conveyances of their own, he believed the present would turn out, after all, the cheaper arrangement.

did not see so much disadvantage with regard to voting as to registration. He thought it would have been better to have had a separate bill for that object alone, which, if then found unfit for the intended purpose, could have been repealed, altered, or modified without causing the excitement that any attempt to alter the whole Bill would create. He thought, further, it would be found necessary to vest the returning officer with some discretionary power to prolong the time of an election. He had known instances where the voters of one particular candidate could not be brought up to vote until the third day.

then asked if any hon. Member had any clause to propose?

proposed a clause making it imperative on the clerks of the different livery companies of the city of London to furnish every year to the town clerk, a return of the different liverymen in each company entitled to vote.

agreed that, from the peculiar nature of the local regulations of the city of London, such a clause was necessary.

complained, that the wording of this clause was almost as long as the Bill itself. It introduced into the city of London a regulation which was not to prevail in other parts of the kingdom. In that city the clerks of the livery companies were to make out a list of the voters—in other places, that list was to be made out by the overseers of the parish in which the voters resided.

said, that he did not see the propriety of the division which the gallant Colonel wished for; and was of opinion, that the parishes in question would gain rather than lose by the arrangement which had been made respecting them.

, while he admitted that the division recommended by the gallant Colonel was the natural one, thought that inconvenience might arise to the voters, in consequence of the distance they might have to go to the place of poll, should the proposition be adopted.

said, the noble Lord had consented to a similar arrangement with that now proposed with regard to Bristol, and he saw no reason why it could not also be acted on in Lincoln.

said, that unless some special reason were assigned, a town like Lincoln ought not to be divided into two counties, or parts of counties.

knew it was the most anxious desire of all the freeholders to preserve their franchise in the division of the county to which they belonged.

said, he did not think the hon. and gallant officer had thrown any new light upon the subject. The Motion had been already discussed, and as he had given his opinion on it before, it was of no use to again repeat it. He should certainly oppose the Motion.

again rose to bring forward the other motion of which he had given notice—namely "to disqualify from any future power of exercising the elective franchise, all persons holding official civil situations during the pleasure of the Crown." He confessed that it was with great surprise that, in the recent debate on the Dublin Election, he had heard the right hon. Chief Secretary for Ireland state, that" It could not be disguised or denied that the Government had been naturally anxious that the views which they took of a great political question should be supported by their dependents." He must say he entirely differed from the right hon. Gentleman, and was astonished that such doctrines should proceed from those who had talked so much of the expediency of the independent and uncontrolled election of Members of Parliament, and who had declared that the object of the Bill before the House was to strike at the root of all that corruption, which proceeded from what they termed the boroughmongering system. Under these circumstances, it naturally occurred to him to consider how Government might be disposed to influence the conduct of their dependents under this new Bill. When he looked at the Acts of Parliament by which even Captains of revenue cutters, Commissioners of Customs, and persons in similar capacities, were deprived of the elective franchise, he wished to ask what, under the 10l. household franchise, would be the state of Greenwich, Woolwich, Dover, &c.? The hon. and gallant Member concluded by moving, that all persons who actually enjoyed any situation or office under the control or pleasure of the Crown, or of the heads of Departments, or others directly or indirectly connected with the public Civil Service, or any person receiving fees or salaries under Government, should be disqualified to vote for Representatives during that time, and within six months of holding the situation or office.

said, this undoubtedly was a most important business, and, if brought forward at all, should be made the subject of a separate Bill. If it was brought forward in that shape he would give it his best consideration.

observed, that if this principle were to be put in action, the Reform Bill should have been divided into twenty-five separate Bills.

supported the Motion, and alluded to the gross instances of Government interference at the late Dublin election, in illustration of the necessity of not allowing persons dependent upon Government to vote at elections. The hon. Member was proceeding to make a statement in defence of Mr. Long, and in answer to the charges brought against this gentleman by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland on a former evening, but was prevented by calls to order.

thought, the substance of this amendment ought to have been embodied in the Bill, as it was founded upon a principle which had been strongly supported by the hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were on the Opposition side of the House. He observed, also, that he did not consider it usual to interrupt an hon. Member when he was making a statement which might be regarded personal.

said, he had never heard any favourable opinion expressed by Ministers, when out of office, connected with the principle of the amendment. He should certainly have opposed it for one, but, at all events, there was neither time nor opportunity at present to discuss such an important subject. He should, therefore, oppose the clause being brought up.

declared, he could not join the hon. and gallant Member in any further disfranchisement.

said, he never could sanction such a principle, that persons were to be disfranchised because they happened to be in the public service: they were generally persons able to exercise a sound discretion; the principle was highly objectionable.

said, that for the purpose of recording upon the Journals his opposition, and that of hon. Members around him, to the two disfranchising clauses, he would now move as an amendment on the first clause, "That all words after 'And be it enacted that,' should be left out." The Motion was seconded by Lord Stormont, but negatived without a division, for which the hon. Member stated it was not his intention to press.

then made a similar motion with respect to the second clause, which was negatived in like manner.

had understood no new county Members were to be allowed to Scotland, and if the principle of population was now to be acted on with regard to Wales, it ought also to be extended to the other country, in which there were several counties which contained four or five times as large a population as those of Wales.

said, he did not feel himself called upon then to enter into the subject; the proper time to discuss it would be when the Reform Bill for Scotland was before the House.

begged leave to be permitted to say, that the conduct of Ministers, with regard to Wales, induced him to indulge in the hope that the claims of the Scotch counties would be more fully considered. They had stronger claims than those of Wales to additional Representation, for they were far more populous and rich. He had no doubt that attempts would be made to give them this addition, when the Reform Bill for that country came under the consideration of the House, and he hoped the noble Lord would be prepared to concede their claims, as he had so very properly given way on this occasion.

regretted that he was likely to destroy the hon. Baronet's hopes, but he must do the noble Lord the justice to say, that he had very boldly and frankly admitted in answer to a question addressed to him by an hon. friend of his, that Government had no intention to increase the number of the Scotch county Members, for which determination, however, the noble Lord had assigned no reasons.

said, he had declared he would assign his reasons when the Scotch Reform Bill was before the House.

merely rose to express his satisfaction at hearing of the addition of Members proposed for Wales. It was doing, in fact, that justice to the Principality which it deserved, but he thought there was yet some distinction made between some of the counties of England and that country.

complained that a return, which he had moved for on the 17th of August, of a copy of the letters-patent under which the Governor of the Isle of Wight holds that office, was not yet laid upon the Table. It related to a question of considerable importance —namely, whether there was a Sheriff in the island or not.

said, he had inquired into the matter, and he found that there was a Sheriff of the island, and that that office was filled by the Governor for the time being.

said, that if the Governor was the Sheriff, of which there was no proof before the House, it was a great constitutional anomaly, that, as a military officer, he should execute the office of Sheriff.

said, that he had no means of stating why the return had not been made. As to the Governor being a military officer, every Sheriff had a military power, and was, under certain circumstances, a military officer. The Sheriff of Westmorland was always a military officer.

observed, that patents were recorded in the proper office, and the information might be procured from thence. They were not bound to send to the Governor for a copy.

had understood, upon inquiry, that the Governor of the Isle of Wight was, by his patent, constituted Sheriff and Coroner of the island, and was directed to hold Knights' Courts there. For several years past the Stewards, who were his deputies, had not exercised the duties of Sheriff, but the Knights' Courts had been held, and the Coroners for the island were not elected as in other parts of the country.

remarked, that the information of the hon. and learned Gentleman appeared, after all, to be only hearsay; and, for himself, he must disbelieve in the existence of the authority of the Governor as Sheriff, until he should actually see the patent creating it.

thought it was the duty of the Secretary of State of the Home Department to see the order of the House carried into execution. It would be quite satisfactory if his noble friend would engage that the copy of the patent should be produced before the third reading.

had no objection to that understanding.

repeated, that it was of great importance that this information should be before the House; he had mentioned it in the Committee twice and several times privately to Gentlemen connected with his Majesty's Government.

then moved the omission of the proviso in the 16th clause, "that nothing herein contained shall take away, or in any manner affect, the right of voting in the election of a Knight or Knights of the Shire, at present enjoyed by any person, or which may hereafter accrue to any person according to the laws now in force, in respect of any freehold property, rent charges, annuities, or any other right of voting now by law enjoyed in relation to the election of a Knight or Knights of the Shire." He proposed the omission because he had ascertained that the words were unnecessary. They were accordingly expunged.

then moved a verbal amendment in the 33rd clause, which was agreed to.

said, that some observations had been made with respect to the jurisdiction of an Election Committee appointed by the House. Such a Committee had the power to alter the poll, and order the return to be amended, but could not alter the registry of the votes. Now, if that continued wrong, the poll and the return at the election might again be bad; to prevent which, he proposed to invest the Committee with the power of altering the registry of votes. He would, therefore, propose to insert the words, "and may direct the registry to be amended."

thought, that such an amendment would be placing great power in the hands of a Committee. The House ought to be very cautious how they delegated their powers to Committees; and, in his opinion, it would be better if the amendment went no further than to let the Committee report on the necessity of an amendment, leaving the House to adopt it, in pursuance of such Report, if it thought proper.

thought, he should obviate every objection by proposing that the clause should stand as follows—to expunge the words "direct the return to be amended accordingly, or declare the election void as the case may be," and insert these, "shall report the same to the House, and the return shall be amended, or the election declared void, as the case may be, and the register amended accordingly."

said, there was a provision in the 44th clause, directing that a Committee of the House of Commons should assess the amount of a Barrister's costs and charges. He thought it would be much better that this duty should be discharged by proper taxing officers.

said, the duties of the Committee would be extremely simple, and he did not consider it involved any point of law.

said, he had no desire to see a Committee of the House of Commons converted into a Law Court, for the purpose of assessing costs and damages. Such a Committee ought to be purely political; and he therefore was of opinion, that the old Election Laws should be adhered to.

begged to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, how a party to whom costs and damages had been given by a Committee of the House of Commons, was to recover them.

said, that the amount awarded could be recovered in a Court of Law.

suggested again, that it would be advisable to allow the returning officer some discretionary power to prolong the time of an election contest under particular circumstances. It might happen that one candidate, by means of having a strong party among the lower orders of voters, of whom there would be under the Bill a large increase, would prevent his opponent's electors being brought up to the poll in due time.

said, the persons who created riots at elections were not generally voters, nor did he see the clause was likely to have the effects apprehended by the hon. Gentleman. He should certainly oppose any additional discretionary power being invested in the returning officer.

said, that acting upon the suggestion of an hon. relative of his, he would propose the introduction of a provision into this clause to enable returning officers to hire houses for the purpose of taking the poll instead of erecting booths, if they should so think fit, such houses to be liable to all the regulations which applied to booths under similar circumstances.—An Amendment to that effect was accordingly proposed.

said, he very much approved of the provision proposed, but he would suggest some other word than "hiring" should be introduced, because it would be more convenient if Courthouses, and other buildings of that description, could be made available for the purpose of holding elections.—Agreed to.

said, he would suggest some alteration should be made in the 51st clause: it enacted, that a person proposing a candidate should be liable to all the expense of proposing such candidate. No expense was incurred by the simple act of proposing a candidate. He thought, therefore, it would be an improvement in the clause, that it made a person liable only if he called for a poll, after proposing a candidate.

, the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, would leave the case precisely as it stood at present. Under the existing system, if a person proposed and then polled for a candidate, unknown to the Sheriff in his official capacity, such person was not liable to all the expenses incurred. This had been often taken advantage of for the purpose of prolonging an election, which it was one of the objects of the Bill to prevent; he (Lord Althorp) was therefore of opinion, the most effectual way to put an end to this system was, to let such persons know they would be saddled with the expenditure incurred.

seconded the Motion. He was well acquainted with Aid-borough, and could declare that each succeeding election there, would be nothing more than a contest between the two families of Lawson and Newcastle, and he had the means of knowing, that the inhabitants were so well convinced of this fact, that they would prefer not to send a Member to the House. When boroughs were to be disfranchised on the ground of nomination, he could see no possible reason why Aldborough should escape, and be left as a bone of contention between two families.

would put this case simply on these grounds. His Majesty's Ministers had, in framing this schedule, adopted a well-known rule, and as that rule excluded from this schedule all boroughs which had more than 2,000 inhabitants, this borough obtained the benefit of that exception. It was true, that Aldborough in the first instance stood in schedule A, but it having been subsequently represented to Ministers that by adding the borough and the parish together, the population would amount to more than 2,000, and they having found, on consulting the population returns, that that representation was correct, Aldborough was excluded from schedule A, and transferred to schedule B. Beyond that statement he had little to say why Aldborough should not be included in this schedule. He did not think that his hon. friend had made a sufficiently precise or accurate statement, such as would warrant the House in coming to the conclusion, that in this borough, in the parish, and in the immediate neighbourhood, there was not a sufficient number of 10l. householders to entitle it to send one Member to Parliament. Wishing to preserve as nearly as possible the principle of the Bill as originally brought forward, arid thinking it better that they should avoid departing from that rule which had been laid down and acted upon in making out those schedules, he should feel it his duty to oppose the Amendment proposed by his hon. friend.

had no personal interest in the question. The interest in the borough would be so altered by this Bill that he could not hope to be ever again returned for it. The inhabitants of Aldborough would much prefer remaining in schedule A; and he was surprised when he heard it was placed in schedule B. The change was not made in consequence of any representations from him or his friends. It was another proof of the many anomalies and absurdities of the Bill, for there were many places exactly in the same predicament.

did not feel much interested one way or the other, but there were two reasons why it should remain in schedule B; first, because it was situated in an important district of the county; and, secondly, because it came within the line of 2,000 inhabitants. He had not so much knowledge of the vicinity as his hon. friend (Mr. Duncombe) collected from his contiguous residence; but he believed Milly belonged to Aldborough, for an antiquarian friend informed him that Milly derived its name from the circumstance of being mille passuum de Burgo. He should certainly prefer having the Member given to Doncaster or Barnsley, but as Aldborough came within the line it was better not to re-open the case, quieta non movere.

said, he was out of the scrape. Though the hon. Member who made the Motion, in the course of his speech seemed often to throw a longing lingering look at him, he could assure him that he had no concern with Aldborough. He must express his thanks to the hon. Member for the language he made use pf upon this occasion, in reference to an illustrious individual, the Duke of Newcastle. Whatever might have fallen from the member for Hertford before, in the heat, perhaps, of debate, he now spoke of that illustrious person in terms descriptive of his true character—of his generous, disinterested, noble, and independent character. From whatever quarter representations might have been made to place Aldborough in schedule B, they certainly did not proceed from that eminent person. By the arrangements of this Bill, the interest of that noble Duke in Aldborough would be completely swamped, as one right hon. Gentleman expressed it, or sluiced, as it had been expressed by another. For his part, he had no more chance than the member for Hertford himself of being returned for Aldborough, and perhaps less; for if the voters heard the able and humorous speech of the hon. Member, it must prove a powerful recommendation to their support. If those infectious diseases which the hon. Member imported from Vienna, should be communicated to Aldborough, there was no fear that he would catch them, for he did not mean to go there, not even within the mille passus of the noble Lord. That noble Lord (Morpeth) said he would vote for retaining Aldborough in schedule B, though he gave no convincing reasons for it; he did not even come within his own mille passus of any reason that would not equally apply to other places. They heard much of corrupt Aldborough, but never heard any thing of corrupt Tavistock, of corrupt Knaresborough, of corrupt Calne, or Ripon, or Horsham. Why not speak of the Duke of Devonshire's boroughs, of the Duke of Norfolk's, of the Marquis of Lansdown's, as well as the Duke of Newcastle's. The former were never mentioned, while the name of the illustrious individual to whom the member for Hertford so justly attributed so many eminent' qualities, was bandied about, and vilely traduced in the scurrilous publications of the day. What reason was there for this? No other reason but because one was the Duke of Newcastle, and the other the Duke of Devonshire. Though he admitted the force of the hon. Gentleman's arguments, he could not vote with him; and for this reason, because he could not vote for the disfranchisement of any place. It belonged to those who prepared the Bill, and not to him, to vindicate their own principle, and to show why Aldborough should be represented, while many large places in Yorkshire remained unrepresented. It was a second edition of the Bill; it was disgraceful altogether, and he would not disfranchise Aldborough.

said, that after what they had heard from the hon. member for Hertford, and according to the principles of the Bill, no place could more properly come within the line of disfranchisement than Aldborough. He begged to be permitted to ask, if large commercial towns in the immediate vicinity of such a place, would be satisfied to find themselves excluded from all representation, while Aldborough was retained in schedule B. He was, therefore, willing to see such a blot removed and would support the Motion of his hon. friend.

must declare, that according as he understood the principle laid down in the Bill, Aldborough, even with the townships that had been added to it, was not a place which came within that principle. At the same time, he could not vote with the hon. Member, as he could never consent to the disfranchisement of any borough on principles so wild and vague as those of the present measure. Neither could he vote against him, for that would have the effect of placing it in schedule B. He was not disposed to place it in either schedule.

merely desired to remark upon one allusion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, who had compared the Duke of Newcastle with other noble Dukes; but there was this difference between them, the latter were most anxious for the Reform Bill, while the former, who, he was ready to admit, was a most honourable man, was against it.

said, it was notorious that the seats for the borough of Evesham (Worcestershire), had been for years past sold, and that it was utterly unworthy to return Members to Parliament. He therefore begged leave to move, that the borough of Evesham be inserted in schedule A.

had no intention to deny that Evesham had been a corrupt place, but the inquiry which the noble Lord proposed to institute last year, had not taken place, and as the borough did not fall within the rule they had laid down, they could not look at its alleged corruption.

said, it was clear that if the Reform Bill had not intervened, they should most likely have disfranchised this borough after due inquiry; but it was one of the stratagems of the Reformers, when the present sweeping measure was introduced, to put a stop to all gradual Reform. He was of opinion that they could not disfranchise this borough without going through the same forms as if it were pure. He therefore hoped his noble friend would not press his Motion.

said, a Committee of the House had reported this borough to be corrupt, and that was a ground of Reform on which they ought to proceed. He was opposed to disfranchisement as practised by this Bill, but he could vote for the Motion on grounds previously sanctioned by Parliament.

said, it was perfectly true that a Committee had reported that the borough was corrupt, but there was no proof that the majority of the electors were corrupt, and in the cases of Aylesbury, Shoreham, and East Ret ford, the House was most anxious to establish, that the majority of electors had been bribed before they proceeded to disfranchise these boroughs. He was himself an elector of that place, and there were many other gentlemen of the vicinity in the same situation. He presumed it would not be said they were corrupt. It was, therefore, a little too much to deprive Evesham of its franchise in a summary manner, when, by the principle under which they had acted, it ought to lose but one Member. He had opposed every clause for disfranchisement in this Bill, and intended to do so as to this Motion.

said, if the inquiry into the case of Evesham had been carried on, he had no doubt the borough would have been proved to have been most corrupt. However, he must oppose the Motion, as that would be disfranchising without evidence. In the cases of Shoreham, Cricklade, &c, the examination of witnesses took place at the Bar, after the Report of the Committee had been received, and it was after a verdict of Guilty given in that and the other House of Parliament, that disfranchisement took place, but here the noble Marquis wished them to condemn without any trial whatever.

said, after the manner in which the noble Marquis was foiled last year, it was reasonable and natural that he should bring forward his present Motion, though he could not concur with the noble Marquis for the reason that had been given by his hon. and learned friend. But it was somewhat remarkable, that had the noble Marquis succeeded against the place last year, the consequence would have been, that Evesham would have, by including the surrounding hundreds, had two Members instead of one, in the same manner as the other boroughs disfranchised under similar circumstances.

observed, the Bill before them would effect an entire change in the constituency, so that the punishment would not fall upon the guilty old constituency, but upon the new one which was about to be created, and which at present was wholly innocent of the charge of corruption.

thought there could be but one opinion as to the corruption of Evesham, after all the information which had been laid before the House; and he therefore thought, they would be fully justified in punishing that borough in the proposed manner. However, as many of his hon. friends appeared to hold different opinions, he would not trouble the House to divide upon his Motion, although he could not help remarking, that Ministers must have the credit of saving as corrupt a borough as any in the country.

said, after the division which had just taken place with regard to Aldborough, which had retained its station in schedule B, he could not doubt that the House would extend the same favour to the borough of Downton. Aldborough had been, by a great majority, preserved, because it passed the line of 2,000 by about 150; now Downton passed the line by 1,500, and he could not imagine why, by the application of the self same rule, Downton was not to be preserved. He begged leave therefore to move, that Downton be removed from schedule A to schedule B.

said, the case of this borough had been so fully argued in the Committee, that there could be no necessity for him to again go over the same ground. Downton was a decayed and inconsiderable place, and had no right whatever to continue to be represented.

said, he knew the place, and although it was a perfect matter of indifference to him in which schedule it was placed, yet he felt bound to declare, that it was not so insignificant a place as the description of the noble Lord might lead the House to suppose.

trusted the noble Lord would be content for that night. The divisions that had taken place with regard to Aldborough and Downton, rendered it imperative on him to take the sense of the House in the case of St. Germain's.

hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) would prepare the clause of which he had given notice as soon as possible, as it was most desirable the Bill should appear as it was intended to stand without any further delay, as the third reading was said to be so near at hand.