was of a different opinion. There was hardly a clause in the Bill to which he did not entertain the strongest objections. It was of the utmost importance that the mercantile body should be fully acquainted with the measure, and this could not be effected in so short a time. He was also desirous that every lawyer and Member of Parliament should be fully acquainted with its details, and the principles on which it was pretended to be founded. He should therefore move, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time on Tuesday.

said, he had no possible objection to the measure being fully discussed, but the state of business in the House rendered it necessary that he should persevere in his Motion.

was in hopes that this Bill would have included Ireland, for the bankrupt laws in that part of the empire were in a much worse state than in this country.

said, he was not acquainted, to any extent, with the bankrupt laws, but he felt much interested in this Bill, and he, therefore, required a longer time than a few hours after it was printed, to make himself acquainted with its contents.

cordially agreed with the hon. Member in his observations with respect to the extravagance which had been displayed in the outlay of the public money on such works as those for which the vote was now demanded; but he, for one, must express his total dissent to what had fallen from the hon. Member, with regard to the late King, for whose memory he entertained a high respect, and whom the hon. Member might have spared, in the recollection of that maxim which enjoins men to refrain from speaking disrespectfully of the dead, more particularly when it was recollected that the subject of his remarks was the late sovereign of this kingdom.

observed, that the greater part of the debt which this vote was intended to defray, had been incurred under the former Administration, and nothing had hitherto been done by the present Ministers which was not strictly in accordance with the recommendations of a Committee. He thought, on the whole, that the expenses were grossly extravagant; but it was necessary to complete the palaces, in order to have proper residences for his Majesty.

, in explanation, said, that he had only expressed his own opinion. He thought, at this moment, when the situation of the country called for a reduction of the burthens of the people, every possible retrenchment should be made, and he knew no subject on which retrenchment could better begin than in the erection and repair of palaces.

said, that if Buckingham-house should be found not to be a fit palace for the King, he hoped the Committee would consider, before they decided upon any plan, what would be the probable expense of making it even fit as a private residence for his Majesty. He had visited the place some months ago, and found the basement story under water, and the ground floor nearly in the same situation; at least, it was so damp as to be unfit for a residence; and at that time, though the weather was very warm, fires were kept up. As to the first part of this grant—that for the improvements at Windsor Castle—he thought it was a very proper grant, and he hoped that sufficient means would not be refused to complete that great national object; but the vote for Buckingham-house was different. He did not object to the sum now asked, for it was to pay debts already due; and, however imprudent the outlay was in the first instance, the House was bound to pay the tradesmen and the artisans who had supplied the labour and materials. It was another question, however, whether any further sums should be expended, in order to make the building a royal residence. The necessity of getting rid of the nuisances which surrounded Buckingham-house, and the expense which that would occasion, should also be taken into consideration. A plan had occurred to him, by which the public might dispose of this building on very advantageous terms, and at the same time erect an elegant and commodious residence for their Majesties, without any additional expense to the country. Some time ago he had written to the Chairman of the Committee appointed to consider of this subject, and offered to give his evidence as to the state of Buckingham-house, and its fitness or unfitness for a royal residence. The Chairman of the Committee sent him a very polite answer, declining his offer at that time, and stating, that the Committee had already come to a resolution to consider whether Buckingham-house might not be made a private residence for the King. Nothing was said of making it a residence for the King and Queen, for no man who had seen the building could for a moment believe that it could ever be made a fit residence for the Court. To that decision of the Committee he of course bowed, though, at the same time, he by no means acquiesced in its propriety; for he thought, that after the Committee should have decided upon recommending it for a private residence, it would be too late to consider of applying it to any other purpose. He regretted that this subject had not been brought forward at an earlier period of the session. He would have called the attention of the House to the subject before, but he deferred it, in the expectation that the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests would be able to attend. He was not still without hope that the Committee would take his plan into consideration. By that plan, a palace might be erected fit for the residence of the Sovereign and his Court, without putting the nation to the expense of a shilling. Buckingham-house had ever been a bad bargain for the country, and he thought that if it could be got rid of on advantageous terms, without the necessity of throwing away any more of the public money upon it, it would, for the first time, become of some benefit to the public. It would, in a few weeks, be too late to make the arrangement which he was about to mention, but there was yet time enough to complete it, if the matter were taken up at once. He would propose that King's College should be transferred to Buckingham-house, which, with very little alteration, might be well adapted for that purpose, and the building, now erected for King's College, might be turned into public offices, for which its situation was better adapted than for a public school. By this arrangement, a saving of full 15,000l. a year might be effected to the country. He had then in his possession an estimate of the sums paid for rent, &c., of public offices in different parts of the metropolis; and it appeared, as would be seen, when the returns, for which he should move, were laid before the House, that the sum he had mentioned, might be saved by bringing them all to one point, which, besides, would be a great convenience to the public. When he should submit his motion for these returns, he should be able to show that the advantages he had pointed out might be obtained by this plan. He should be able, he thought, satisfactorily to establish, that a suitable residence might be erected for his Majesty, without any expense to the public. He would not, as he had already stated, offer any objection to this vote, because it was required for the payment of work already done; but he must again express his earnest hope, that the Committee would consider the great expense which it would probably require before this building could be made a residence fit for his Majesty.

said, that a Committee, which had sat on the subject of the buildings at Windsor and at Buckingham-house, had decided that 177,000l. more should be advanced for completing the repairs and alterations of the former; that sum to be advanced in payments of 50,000l. a year, until the whole was paid. The sum of 100,000l. now asked for, was not a prospective vote, but was for the payment of arrears for work already done. When the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Sibthorp) lectured Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, on economy, he ought to put the saddle on the right horse, for the expenditure which this vote was to make good was incurred under the late Administration. He (Mr. Wood) was a member of the Committee on this subject appointed in 1831; which had now sat nearly four months, and had diligently employed itself in the examination of the accounts, which had been sent in to an amount exceeding 100,000l. They had called to their assistance, tradesmen who gave them information as to the nature and value of the work done, and they were still engaged upon the same inquiry. In the meantime, however, the tradesmen, many of whom were in great distress by being kept out of the payment of their accounts so long, ought not to be allowed to starve. It was necessary, therefore, that the sum now asked should be given. This did not touch the question how far the contracts originally entered into for the erection of this tasteless and unsightly building were provident or otherwise. He thought the expenditure was most extra- vagant, and it would be recollected that he had been the means of putting a stop to it, by the bill for which he moved, for the better regulation of the land revenues. The statement then made as to the vast expenditure already incurred on Buckingham-house, was the means of putting a stop to any further outlay. In his opinion, too much money had been already expended upon that building, and before any more should be thrown away, they ought to decide to what object that palace could well be applied. This, however, should not hinder the payment of the arrears due to the tradesmen and artisans who had been employed on it. Some of these were reduced to such distress by the delay in the payment of their bills, as to become insolvent; and one man, who had been in respectable circumstances, and who had supplied the apparatus for warming the palace, was reduced to such distress by not being paid, that he actually had the bed sold from under him. This was a state of things not at all creditable to those under whose management these expenses had been incurred. He had very strong opinions as to some parts of this expenditure, and some questions to ask respecting it, but the present was not the proper time for entering upon them. He would wait until the Committee should have made its report, and then call the attention of the House to the subject. This, he repeated, was no argument for postponing the payment to the starving tradesmen, who should have been paid long ago. To show that the Committee had not been idle since its appointment, he might mention, that bills to the amount of 120,000l. had been sent in for furniture for Windsor Castle; some of these were of so extravagant a nature in their charges, that in examining them, there had been a reduction on this amount of within a few hundreds of 25,000l. This showed that their time had been profitably employed.

was rather surprised at the statement of the hon. and gallant Officer, that the basement story of Buckingham-house was underwater. The Government had had a very different account of it from an eminent architect who had lately examined it, and who stated, that the building was in a perfectly sound state, and that, with very little alteration, it might be rendered fit for the residence of his Majesty.

had not said any thing as to the stability of the building. He himself had not visited the building lately, but when he did see it, the basement story was—he would not say actually under water, for that was too strong an expression—but it certainly was damp and unwholesome, and the ground floor was also damp, though it was then warm weather. The gentleman from whom he had his information as to its recent condition, had seen it ten days ago, and he assured him, that the ground floor was damp, and unfit to reside in. But it would be easy to put that fact beyond all doubt, by a new examination of it. When he saw the building, the weather was warm, but even then it was necessary to have the place kept aired by warming stoves fitted up in different parts of it. The very situation of the house was quite sufficient to account for its damp condition. There was a large lake in front of it, and another in the rear; and near it was erected a large mound to hide some of the out-offices from view, by which a free circulation of air was prevented. It was no argument in favour of it to say, that the healthy and vigorous family of George 3rd had been reared in that house. The circumstances of its situation were now quite different. The proximity of the two great lakes to which he had before alluded, though they contributed greatly as ornaments, tended to make the place damp. He would remind the Committee, that to make the place a palace fit for the residence of the Sovereign, it would be necessary to purchase the buildings in its neighbourhood, which could be considered only as nuisances, in such proximity to a royal residence. Some of these buildings had been already greatly enhanced in value, on the probability that it would be necessary to purchase them. On the whole, he would say, that to fit up Buckingham-palace as a residence for the King and Queen, and their Court, would require another outlay of at least 500,000l.; and even then the residence could not be otherwise than incommodious.

wished to know, whether the sum now called for would cover all arrears; or whether it was only a sum on account. If it were the latter, he should object; for he had seen, on other occasions, that sums voted on account, had only led to increased expenditure. He regretted that the tradesmen who were thus made creditors of the State, should be driven to such distress by the delay in the payment of their bills; but were there not some parties who, while these tradesmen were in such distress, had made large fortunes by having a per centage on the whole outlay, on the pulling down and altering, as well as the original building? Would it not be better to wait until the report of the Committee was before the House? On the plan suggested by the gallant Officer he would not then enter, but he thought it was too important to be lost sight of.

said, that the 100,000l. would cover all the arrears, or very nearly. The arrears were, 104, 704l. 3s. 4d., so that this sum would nearly cover the whole. These arrears consisted chiefly of bills due to tradesmen, and very pressing representations had been made to the Government as to the great distress to which many of these tradesmen had been reduced by the delay in their payments. One gentleman, a man of great reputation and fame as an artist, was reduced to such distress by this delay, that he ran the risk of being seriously injured if that delay were continued much longer. As to what should be done with Buckingham-palace, that question was at present under the consideration of a Committee, and he would offer no opinion until that Committee should have decided. One gentleman, an architect of considerable skill, and one who was very accurate in his estimates, had calculated, that not more than 70,000l. would be required to finish the palace, and put it in a fit state for the residence of the Sovereign; and if that estimate were as correct as some others which he had seen made by the same party, though on a smaller scale, he had reason to believe, that the expenditure required would not be more than that sum. However, before they came to the question of further expenditure, it would be necessary to decide to what use it might be proper to apply the building. The sums already sanctioned by Parliament for Windsor Castle amounted to 594,000l. There had been a further sum sanctioned by Parliament last year of 177,000l., which made the whole for building and repairs 977,000l. in round numbers. There was, besides this, a sum of 267,000l. for furniture, and a further sum of 5,222l. 9s. 2d., but from this was to be deducted the sum of 1,500l. for fees paid to the Lord Chamberlain's office, and to which that office was considered not to be entitled. This reduced the sum of 5,222l. to about 3,600l. There was another item, for furniture this year, and for this he was responsible. An estimate had been made in the first instance of 12,000l. for this furniture, but that was considered an exorbitant amount, and, by opening the thing to competition, the estimate was reduced to 10,000l.—thus the whole sum, for furniture amounted to 280,670l. 9s. 2d. There was, besides this, an outlay of 33,500l. for the purchase of land, which it was considered desirable to possess, in the neighbourhood of the Castle. This made the whole sum expended for building, repairs, alterations, for furniture, and for the purchase of land, 1,084,470l. Of this sum, 894,500l. had been already applied, leaving a sum of 180,670l. still to be applied. The sum for furniture required in the present year amounted to 13,000l., which, added to the 50,000l. which it was intended to apply annually out of the sum of 177,000l. which Parliament had already sanctioned, made the expenditure for Windsor Castle this year 63,000l. The sum of 100,000l. in addition now called for was, as had been already stated, for the purpose of paying the arrears due to workmen, and was all that would be required to cover those arrears within the sum of about 4,000l. which he had already mentioned.

deprecated the unexampled haste with which this vote was brought forward after the estimates had been laid upon the Table. It was only at two o'clock that morning that that estimate had been presented; yet, after so short an interval, during which no person could be prepared to examine the accounts, they were called upon to vote these sums. He had objected, on a former occasion to the expenditure of 300,000l. for Windsor Castle, and 200,000l. for Buckingham-palace, until a statement should be laid on the Table, showing whether these sums would be sufficient to cover the expenditure for which they were intended. The Committee now saw the effect of their not having such an account. The late Government had incurred a heavy responsibility by the manner in which the accounts of the expenditure at these palaces had been neglected, and they ought to be called on to explain their negligence in that respect. He should like to call the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to a serious account on this subject, for he considered that the late Ministers deserved little less than impeachment for their want of care in allowing such an extravagant expenditure of the public money. It was a perfect mockery of that House to call upon it to vote such large sums out of the pockets of the people, and not to lay before it a full and accurate account of the manner in which they were to be applied. It was said, that this vote of 100,000l. was necessary for the payment of the tradesmen, who were in great distress from the delay in the settlement of their accounts. He admitted they were, and it was a shame that they should be, and he only regretted, that every one of them could not come upon the late Ministers for the full liquidation of their demands. What was the use of talking of the responsibility of Ministers, if it could not be made available to prevent such a public inconvenience as this? A sum of nearly 900,000l. had been already expended upon Windsor Castle, and 464,000l. upon Buckingham-palace; and they were now called upon for 100,000l. of arrears for the latter, and for 63,000l. for this year, for Windsor Castle. If he made no objection to the payment of the arrears, he certainly should object to their being paid out of the pockets of the people, while Crown lands existed which were only a burden upon the country, and the sale of part of which might easily be made available to cover the remaining expenditure for these buildings. Parliament might dispose of those lands; or, if that were objected to, let a bill be brought in to enable the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests to borrow money on the security of the Crown lands, and thus provide a fund for the payment of the arrears, and for the completion of the buildings—if it were necessary that Buckingham-palace should be completed. He would not now go into many points connected with this expenditure, because too little time had been allowed for examining into it. He thought, however, that they should wait until they had before them the report of the Committee, and that until then they should not vote any further sum. The great blame of this delay rested in the late Government—though he must at the same time observe, that the present Government had been long enough in office to have called the attention of Parliament to this subject before now; but as they had waited so long, they might wait a little longer. As to what they should do with Buckingham-palace, he would not offer an opinion; but he thought it worth while to inquire, whether it could be completed as a Royal residence without any very great additional outlay. He had listened to the suggested plan of the hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel Trench), and he would not say, that it was undeserving of attention; but he thought, that having already gone so far with the palace, having already expended so large a sum of the public money upon it, they ought not to give it up if it were practicable to make it a fit residence for their Majesties. He was ready to admit, that the Sovereign of this country ought to have a residence suitable to his high dignity; but when he admitted this, he must again say, that he would not have it paid for out of the pockets of the people, but by the sale of those lands which belonged to the Crown, and the continuance of which in the hands of Commissioners only made them a burden instead of a benefit to the country. He would not urge the subject further at present, except again to press upon the noble Lord the necessity of deferring these votes until they had an opportunity of further inquiry, or at least until they had before them the report of the Committee. He would, therefore, move, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

hoped that they were at last bringing these accounts to a close. He felt no pleasure in looking at Buckingham Palace. It was nothing but an immense pile of buildings: but as they had laid out large sums of money on it, they were bound to adhere to it. He was satisfied that the people of this country did not wish to grudge his Majesty a suitable Palace, but they were anxious that the money spent on it might not be wasted. He should, therefore, not oppose the present grant, the more especially as the money was due for work done. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Crown possessions should be either sold or mortgaged to supply the sums necessary for the completion of Royal Palaces.

reminded the House that this grant was proposed to defray expenses already incurred. He was ready to admit, that if the money asked for was to meet future expenses, the House would be justified in calling for further time before agreeing to the vote. He certainly was of opinion that the money had been improperly expended; but that was not the question before the House. The only question was, whether those parties to whom the money was due were to be paid or not? The hon. member for Middlesex had proposed that the required sum should be taken from the funds of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. It was of very little importance from what fund the money was taken, whether from the Woods and Forests, or from the Consolidated Fund, for all the revenue of the Crown lands was public revenue.

begged the hon. member for Middlesex to recollect, that the great proportion of the present vote would go to defray the expenses of works undertaken by the late Government, and he did not think it just to punish the present Government for the faults of their predecessors. He thought that the vote ought to be allowed to pass without delay, as the money was due to a description of men who were actually in need of it. He could not support his hon. friend's proposition, to raise the required sum from the sale of the Crown lands. It would take some time before the Crown lands could be sold for that purpose, and in the meanwhile, what was to become of the tradesmen who stood in need of the money which was due to them?

said, that the Crown lands were not generally productive to the public, and he wished to make them available for the purposes of this vote.

concurred in the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Middlesex, and thought that the present vote ought to be postponed until the Select Committee appointed to inquire on the subject of Buckingham Palace made their report. He had given his vote in favour of Reform, and he felt bound to support that vote by advocating economy and retrenchment.

was not disposed, at the present moment, to blame either the present or the late Government for their conduct with respect to the Royal Palaces; but he did think that Ministers had been guilty of precipitation in bringing forward the vote before the House. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex in thinking that the grant ought to be postponed until the Select Committee made their Report. He understood that the Committee had made a Special Report, recommending that the debts already incurred should be discharged. He was not before aware of that fact. He had not seen the Report, and was sure that it was not printed. He still thought that the vote should be deferred, and time allowed for the consideration of that Report.

thought, that it could not be fairly said, that the House was taken by surprise with respect to this vote. Hon. Members were aware that a Committee had been some time sitting to examine the accounts connected with the Royal Palaces. It was true that the Committee had not made a full Report on the subject, but they had made a Special Report with respect to the debts already incurred, and recommended the House to discharge them. The present vote, therefore, was supported by the recommendation of the Select Committee appointed by the House. The hon. member for Middlesex had proposed the postponement of the grant; but to that proposition he could not consent, for the circumstances of the case were such as to make it a matter of great importance that the money should be voted with as little delay as possible. He would state the case of one tradesman, who had claims on the Treasury for work performed in Buckingham Palace, in order that the House might see the necessity of immediately passing the present vote. The individual in question had invented a plan of heating houses, and had been employed to apply it to Buckingham Palace. This he had done at his own expense, and had, up to the present time, kept the Palace in a proper state of warmth, and might be said to have contributed thereby to the preservation of the Palace. His resources were, however, at last drained, and he came to the Treasury with the last remains of his property in pawnbrokers' duplicates. The Treasury had it not in their power to grant him the relief he asked for—the payment of the money due to him—because no vote had passed that House; but the unfortunate man received 100l. in charity from the Royal purse, in order to keep him from starving. From this statement he thought that the House would see the expediency of passing the vote with the least possible delay, and of not deferring it until after an investigation of the revenue arising from Crown property.

supported the proposal of the hon. member for Middlesex, In his opinion, too much had been spent, and the Government were bound to show good reasons for demanding so large a grant.

would not now enter into the question whether the money which had been spent on Buckingham Palace had been improperly and extravagantly expended, but there was a great difference between a debt already contracted and a proposition for fresh expenditure. He should give his vote for the payment of these tradesmen, because he believed their demands to be just, and because he felt also that the Government could and should be legally compelled to pay them, as they had been incurred by accredited agents of Government.

was of opinion, that those who contracted the debt ought to pay it. The whole expenditure upon Buckingham-house had been extravagantly wasteful and profligate from beginning to end. It had been well described as a mixture of mud and magnificence, and was another proof of the bad taste of those who selected sites for Palaces, and the buildings they erected were worthy of their situations.

said, that he would not only vote for the sum now required, but for any further sum which might be necessary to complete the Palace, for he thought that it would be a profligate waste of the public money to leave the building uncompleted after so much money had already been expended upon it. He would take this opportunity of calling the attention of Ministers to another subject of some importance. He understood that apiece of ground contiguous to Somerset-house was set apart as a site for the construction of the King's College, on the express understanding that the building should be made to form, the eastern wing of Somerset-house, which had never yet been completed. The College was now finished, but instead of being built in uniformity with the edifice which it was intended to complete, it bore not the slightest resemblance to it. He wished to know how this happened. Some explanation was due on the subject.

said, that he could satisfy the hon. Member upon the subject to which he had alluded. The Trustees of the College had entered into an agreement with Government, that the building should be erected in such a manner as to form the eastern wing of Somerset-house, and thus complete that edifice. Government had obtained security for the fulfilment of the contract. The wing was to be completed within five years. Government had employed a surveyor to ascertain whether it was practicable to complete the building according to the proposed plan, and he had reported in the affirmative.

said, that he had seen the College from the river, and was of opinion that, it was built in such a manner as to render it utterly impossible to complete the eastern wing, unless part of the College should be pulled down.

assured the hon. member for Kirkcudbright, that ample space was left to allow of the eastern wing being completed in conformity with the rest of the building.

opposed the grant, and complained that the House had been, taken by surprise when it was proposed. He hoped the hon. member for Middlesex would press his Amendment.

felt for the tradesmen who were said to be suffering, but when it was asserted that they could not be paid without the authority of Parliament, he would answer, that the debts ought not to have been incurred without the sanction of the House; and he agreed with the hon. member for Preston, that those who authorized the work should be made to pay for it. The House was no protection against a wasteful expenditure of the public money, if Ministers could expend such sums without its authority.

begged to be permitted to explain why this vote had been laid on the Table, before the final Report of the Committee had been made. The subjects to be inquired into were various and difficult, and although the Committee had been very assiduous in inquiring into them, they were still unable to come to a conclusion, and as they found it necessary to adjourn for fourteen days, the Chairman recommended that 100,000l. should be applied in the mean time to the payment of distressed tradesmen.

said, that since he had made his preceding observations, a paper had been handed to him, which purported to be the first Report of the Committee on the Royal Palaces, but he did not observe any recommendation of one sum of 10,000l. which was included in the vote now before the House. He wished, therefore, to know how that sum came to be charged, He begged it to be understood that he wished the tradesmen should be paid, but the sum necessary for that purpose should be taken from the Crown lands, and not from the Consolidated Fund.

said, the 10,000l. to which his hon. friend objected, was intended to pay for furniture for St. George's-hall, Windsor, and he applied for it on his own responsibility.

said, he would take his noble friend's word as a private man for the payment of any sum, but as Chancellor of the Exchequer he could not trust him. The House ought to be told how this 10,000l. was to be expended; they had heard of chairs which cost 100l. or 200l. each; these were out of character for a hall, even allowing that hall was part of a Royal Palace: good substantial oak chairs were alone required.

said, perhaps his hon. friend was perfectly justified in placing no confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but as to his remarks about the furniture, he resembled another hon. friend of his, an antiquary, who thought there should be loop-holes in the Palace instead of windows, as it was called a castle. As the loop holes had given way to windows, so he hoped the oak chairs might be supplanted with something more according with the taste and comfort of the present times.

said, he must protest against the doctrine which had been advanced in the course of the debate, that the Crown lands were to be liable for debts contracted in the manner these had been contracted. It had been intimated, on one or two occasions, that one of the first measures of a Reformed Parliament would be, to sell the Crown Lands and apply the produce to the liquidation of; the National Debt: in short, that so soon as the people alone were represented, they would take the hereditary revenue of the Crown to themselves. The King had as good a title to these lands as any private gentleman had to his estates. Whoever, therefore, struck the first blow at the hereditary revenues of the Crown would lessen the security of private property.

was obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his information; but he, at the same time, believed, that when the Civil List was voted at the commencement of a new reign, the Crown lands became public property.

assured the hon. Gentleman he had taken a wrong view of the case. The hereditary revenues were only given to the public for the life of the Sovereign. So soon as the Civil List expired with the demise of the Crown, the Crown lands became again the property of the successor, until a new bargain was made. Whoever attempted wholly to alienate these revenues, would be guilty of a revolutionary act.

said, if it was indeed a revolutionary act to dispose of the Crown property for the public benefit, the House had frequently been guilty of such acts; for large estates belonging to the Crown had been disposed of, and the purchase money brought into the common coffers of the State. The question of Crown property, however, and the manner in which its revenues ought to be applied, was of too much importance to be entered into on an incidental discussion.

agreed with the hon. Gentleman, that this was not the proper time to enter into such a discussion; but, at the same time, he must enter his protest against the doctrine, that the hereditary revenues of the Crown were nothing more than public property, to be dealt with as the House might determine. At the proper opportunity, he should be prepared to show, that such a doctrine was wholly at variance with the principles of the Constitution.

remained decidedly of opinion that this grant was improper, and ought not to be made until the Committee had made their final report. He should, therefore, persist in his Amendment, that the Chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again.

complained of the conduct of the Chairman, and observed, that he must say, that it was not fair to his hon. friend, the member for Carlisle, who intended to take the sense of the House upon his Amendment, after the first had been disposed of—that the question should be put so hastily, and in so low a tone of voice, when the House was in such confusion after the division, that it could not not be heard.

(the Chairman) said, that since he had had the honour to fill that Chair—and he considered it a high honour—he had endeavoured, on every occasion, to discharge his duty to the best of his ability. He had been as desirous to do so on the present occasion as on any other; and he was not aware, that anything he had done had, in the least degree, entitled the hon. Member to make the observation which imputed to him the having acted with unfairness towards another hon. Member. Having said this, he should now do no more than throw himself upon the judgment of the Committee.

said, that it was fit every Member should hear a question when it was put; and he declared that he had not heard the question of the amendment of his hon. friend put to the Committee.

was quite ready to say, that he considered the hon. Member (Mr. Bernal) to be generally the best Chairman (of course he did not include the Speaker) that that House had had since he had been a Member of it, and that was, with some intermission, since 1820; but on this occasion, he was bound to say, that he did not hear the question put. He did not mean to say that the question was not put, but he did not hear it. It might have been put when the Members were crossing to their places, and he did not hear it in the confusion.

said, that the question had been regularly put, and that there was no ground whatever for such an observation as that made by the hon. member for Middlesex.

did not think that there had been more haste than usual on this occasion; on the contrary, he thought the question had been put with perfect deliberation; and if hon. Gentlemen would not return in time to their places, they must take the consequences of their own fault.

wished to put a ques tion to the noble Lord opposite respecting a building which this morning had a notice put upon it, stating that it was to be sold, but from which that notice had subsequently been removed—he alluded to the old stables near Charing Cross. He understood that it was in contemplation to take them away altogether, in order to complete the projected improvements there by the erection of another building upon their site. Now, such a building would be most expensive; and he begged to repeat an opinion he had expressed both to the former and the present Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, that that large expense was unnecessary; and that, by proper alterations, and for a couple of thousand pounds, the buildings there might be made handsome ornaments of the place. At one time, it was understood that a gallery was to be formed there; but to whatever purpose the building was intended to be applied, he must say, that he believed it unnecessary to pull it down. He wished to ask whether it was intended to pull down these stables?

said, the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down, devoted a considerable portion of his speech to a paper brought under the notice of the House, and to the general question of West-Indian policy. To that portion of his speech he should not make any reply, but should occupy the time of the House as shortly as possible on the subject immediately before them, namely, whether a Committee of Inquiry should be appointed, or whether the House should be content to receive this report. Another portion of the hon. Gentleman's speech, indeed the main portion of it, was addressed to the question of the foreign slave-trade. In scarcely anything that he had said upon that subject, did he (Mr. Poulett Thomson) differ from him; although he should rather have supposed that the hon. and learned Gentleman, in taking the view he did of that question, had been making a speech prepared for the motion he intended to have brought forward last night, than for that actually brought before them on this occasion. With the arguments or statements of the hon. Gentleman with respect to the foreign slave-trade, he had nothing to do, for he could not agree that the measure proposed by his Majesty's Government went to increase the foreign slave-trade, and materially to benefit the grower of foreign sugar. The hon. and learned Gentleman had made many assertions upon that subject; he had addressed many touching arguments to the House upon it, and had most adroitly endeavoured to excite in his favour the sympathy of all those Gentlemen who generally took part against him. But the hon. and learned Gentleman, whilst he dealt so largely in assertions, had omitted to adduce one single argument upon which he could ground those assertions; and in the course of his whole speech, had stated but one solitary fact upon which he pretended to rely. To this he should have occasion presently to advert; but first, in reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman's assertions, he would deny, in the most positive terms, that the measure proposed had any, even the remotest connexion, either with the foreign slave-trade, or with the interests of the West-Indian colonists, which was the entire assumption of the hon. Gentleman. It was apparent that the effect he spoke of could only be brought about in one of two ways; either that the measure of the Government went to raise the price of foreign sugar, and thus operated as an inducement to its growth, or that it would add to the consumption of foreign sugar, and thus, also, be an inducement to the foreign planter to grow it. On these two points the hon. and learned Gentleman had completely failed in making out any case whatever. It would be his duty, however, to show that neither of these two effects could, by possibility, arise from the measure they now submitted to the House. If they could not, it was impossible that any of the other evils could occur. But before he proceeded to that part of the subject, he had, perhaps, better address himself to some observations which the hon. and learned Gentleman applied personally to him, as regarded the office to which he had the honour to belong. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that he (the Vice President of the Board of Trade) must have had greater communications with the refiners, and lent a more ready ear to their suggestions, than to those of the West-Indians. But if he were to compare the number of days and the number of hours devoted to conferences with the West-Indians, with the few interviews he had had with the refiners, the balance would be ten to one in favour of the West-Indians. The hon. and learned Gentleman then said, that had it not been for the interviews he had had with the refiners, the ready ear he had lent to their statements, and the deaf ear he had turned to the refutations of the West-Indians, he would have hardly made the promise which this Bill was intended to redeem. The hon. and learned Gentleman had not, however, stated the facts of the case. In the interviews he had had the honour of holding with different parties on this subject, he had carefully abstained from making any pledge or promise for the renewal of this Act. It was not until the month of April or May, after an application to the Treasury to know whether this Act should be renewed, and after having offered his advice that it should be, and after having communicated to the West-Indians that it would be renewed, that the same communication was made to the refiners. The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say, that negligence was evinced by the Government and by the Board at which he had the honour to hold a seat, in not being sufficiently ready to try that experiment which was to settle the points in dispute. The hon. Gentleman added, that when the Government sent down to Liverpool, and desired the experiment to be tried there, the West-Indians agreed to abide by it, but that the refiners would not, and that the Government had forgotten that there was such a body in London as the West-Indian proprietors. When the hon. member for Cricklade put a question, on a former occasion, on this subject, he was not informed upon it, and could not give him an answer; but he had since made inquiries, by which he learnt that orders were sent to the Customs at Liverpool to propose the trial of the experiment there. The subject was mentioned to the West-India merchants of that town, who, without any details having been gone into, certainly agreed to the proposal. The refiners were then applied to, and they agreed to submit to the experiment with pleasure, but then arose the question of how it was to be tried. If it were to be tried like a chemical experiment, upon a small scale—say with not above a ton of sugar—they said it would not give the true results; and if upon a more extended one, that all their works were fully employed, and that they could not, without inconvenience, spare room for the experiment. They added, however, that they only wanted the experiment to be tried upon a large scale—that they did not want it done under their inspection—that it might be tried in London, where a sugar-house could be hired for the purpose, under the inspection of the Government, and that they would be bound by the result. That was a sufficient answer to the statement that the Liverpool refiners had refused to have the experiment tried. With respect to the charge of no communication having been made to the London merchants, that statement would best be answered by a letter from an officer of the Customs, written in answer to an inquiry made upon the subject. It was with one extract only that he should I trouble the. House:—"On the receipt of the letters from the Treasury and the Board of Trade, relative to the experiments proposed to be instituted, with a view to ascertain the quantity of refined sugar; obtained from raw sugar, I communicated the contents of the same to Mr. Laurence, Chairman of the Committee of Sugar Refiners, and to Mr. Daniell and another gentleman largely connected with the colonies, on behalf of the West-India merchants, and it having been suggested by Mr. Daniell that the subject should also be communicated to the Committee o. the West-India planters, I called several times at their office in St. James's-street, and at last succeeded in meeting with Mr. Saintsbury, their Assistant Secretary, to whom I exhibited the letters relative to the proposed trial, and communicated the substance of my previous conversations with Mr. Laurence and the other parties on the subject. I also, at the suggestion of Mr. Saintsbury, made a written communication to him, setting forth the manner in which it was proposed that the experiments should be tried. I have since seen Mr. Branker and Mr. Laurence—the former states, that, although he and the other refiners at Liverpool declined to make the experiments upon a small chemical test, because they considered it impracticable, and further, because all the sugar-houses in that town were too fully engaged to admit of either of them being spared for an experiment, yet that he and the other sugar refiners had not the least objection to the experiment being made on a large scale, and were willing to abide by the result of any such experiment that might be acquiesced in by the refiners in London. Mr. Laurence states, that he also is of opinion, that the experiment, to be fairly made, should be on a large scale; that although he conceives it would be attended with difficulty, he is convinced that the trade in London would have no objection to the trial being made." [Mr. Burge asked the date of the communication.] The date was not mentioned, but the expression in the letter was "immediately." After all these efforts, then, to have the experiment satisfactorily tried, a heavy charge was brought against the Government for not proceeding more rapidly with an experiment on the result of which this Bill was not to depend, But the House would be surprised to hear, that when the proposal formally came before the West-Indian Committee, it refused to agree to the experiment. [The Marquis of Chandos wished the Resolution to be read.] Before doing that he would repeat his assertion, that the West Indian body refused to be bound by the result of any inquiry that might be gone into. Here was the resolution:—

"At a meeting of the Standing Committee of West-India Planters and Merchants, held the 27th of September, 1831, the Marquis of Chandos in the Chair, it was unanimously resolved—

"That no written communication repecting the proposed experiment in the refining of sugar, was made to the West-Indian interest connected with London, until the 23rd instant, being nearly three weeks after the same had been made to the West India merchants and planters, and the sugar refiners of Liverpool; nor until after the refiners of the latter port had intimated a refusal to join in such an experiment.

"That the question of the foreign refinery, so deeply affecting the very existence of the British West-India colonies, is now before Parliament, and under the management of persons who are fully convinced of the justice of our case, and capable of explaining it—and that, until the House of Commons shall have come to a decision on the subject, or the Bill be withdrawn, we consider that it would be premature in this Committee to enter into any engagements for joining in the proposed experiment."

What was this but a refusal, for the present, to be guided by the experiment? His hon. friend said it was dated yesterday. Why the. House might decide that night that this measure be persevered in, but it might not be carried through the House for three weeks, perhaps for a month, and might be for some time in the other House. These enemies of delay, then, would not consent to an experiment which they before appeared so anxious about. The whole question in that respect fell to the ground, or there was gross inconsistency in making the charge against the Government which had been brought forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman. Having now touched upon those parts of the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech concerning himself, he would proceed to those parts of his address which referred more immediately to the question before the House. He had stated that the hon. and learned Gentleman had failed to advance any argument to show why the price of foreign sugar should be raised, or its consumption increased, by the measure now introduced to the House, and failing in that, he could not shew how either the West-Indian interest could be affected, or the slave-trade promoted by it. It was to that point that he wished, in the first instance, to direct the attention of the House. His condition was rather a curious one, owing to the mode in which the hon. Gentleman had brought forward this question. It had been the custom of the House, when such a resolution had been carried, to allow a bill, the details of which were important, at once to be brought in; but now he was compelled to argue the details of a Bill not yet before the House. It was true, that the Bill was nothing more than the renewal of an old Act; but Gentlemen were not in the habit of turning to old Acts of Parliament, so that few were acquainted with the details of the subject now before the House. The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, indeed, was an example of the inconvenience of which he complained, for he exhibited, in one of his arguments, how completely he was himself ignorant of the Bill which he opposed. He brought it as a charge against the refiners, that they had evaded the law, and had actually introduced foreign sugar for consumption into this country in defiance of it. But what did the Act authorize them to do? The Act said, that for every cwt. of sugar they imported, they should export a similar quantity, but it did not say that it should be identically the same sugar. Foreign sugar, therefore, might be imported and consumed, provided an equal quantity of West-India sugar were exported. They had not, therefore, evaded the law, but had only done what the law allowed them to do; and when the hon. Gentleman made the assertion he did, he could not have known what the law really was. Before he proceeded further, he would remind the House what the principle of this measure really was. Its principle was one that had been recognised by the Legislature over and over again. It had been recognised in the articles of cotton, of silk, and a variety of others. It was this, that the raw material should be brought into this country to be manufactured, and that the produce, or an equivalent for it, should be exported to foreign countries. Gentlemen were well aware that sugar was not refined to any extent in the countries in which it was produced; it was brought in a raw state to be refined in Europe. The object of this Bill was, to admit foreign sugar into this country to be refined, and then exported for consumption abroad, instead of driving it to Hamburgh or Amsterdam for that purpose. It must be apparent to every one, that if a ship-load of foreign sugar be landed in the Isle of Dogs, refined there, and then again embarked on board the same ship, to be carried to some other port of Europe, the transaction could not have the slightest, the most remote effect upon the sugar, or price of sugar, sent by our own colonies to this country for consumption. It was impossible, however, to make an arrangement which should exactly correspond to the imaginary operation he had described as taking place in the Isle of Dogs. Mr. Huskisson tried it: the right hon. Gentleman opposite had the subject under his consideration; but both found it impossible to confine the operation within four walls. It was necessary, therefore, to adopt some plan which should have that effect, without its actually being so. In explaining this subject he must entreat the close attention of the House for a short space; for although the subject was intricate to those not acquainted with it, yet, as it was a simple matter of calculation, he hoped to be able to make it clear. It was well known to hon. Gentlemen, that all the sales of West-Indian sugar were noted, and an average Gazette price struck off. It must be clear likewise to every hon. Gentleman who had looked into this question, that the price of sugar on the Continent, and the price of West-Indian sugar here, must be the same, because a large surplus of West-Indian sugar was imported, which had to be sold on the Continent; so that the price of sugar in London was the price of all sugar of the same quality, whether foreign or West-Indian, in the ports of the Continent, making allowance however, in calculating what sugar in bond here would fetch on the Continent for the difference of the freight. West-Indian sugar, whether for refining or consumption, paid a duty of 24s. If it was refined, a drawback was allowed on the refined sugar, and the bastards calculated to be equal to the 24s. duty paid. This principle was applied to the Act before the House. Foreign sugar, of which they knew the value to be exactly the same as sugar from the West Indies, was admitted for the purpose of refining in this country. He might be asked, what security there was, that foreign sugar, thus introduced for refinery, was really only of the same quality and value as West-India sugar? There was this security—the refiner, or any one entering foreign sugar for refinery, was obliged to declare the value of that sugar; and if he declared under the value, the Custom-house officer, or any one, might take it off his hands, or underwrite it, as the term was. There was but one price for foreign and West-India sugar of equal quality in this market, or abroad, and if the Customhouse officer found that it had been entered at too low a value by the refiner, it was his interest to take it at that low value, and send it abroad for sale on his own account. This was the check introduced in a variety of other cases; in all those cases in which ad valorem duties were levied, and it had never been found to fail. It was impossible for the refiner to introduce foreign sugar which yielded more, or which was of greater value, than the British West-India sugar, unless by paying a higher rate of duty, or receiving a less drawback upon its export. This check, he contended, was perfect; but there was another circumstance to be taken into account to which he must advert. He had stated, that the price of West-India sugar in this country must be regulated by the price abroad, because England exported a surplus; but nothing but refined sugar was exported; and it was not the price of raw sugar abroad, but of refined sugar, which regulated the price at home. Out of one cwt. of raw West-India sugar, there was produced a certain quantity of refined sugar, of bastard, and of treacle. Treacle in England was more in demand, and bore a higher price than that article did on the Continent. The English refiner was enabled to sell his treacle at a higher price in England than he could on the Continent; and the effect of this was, to enable him to give a higher price for raw West-India sugar than the foreigner was able to give. The treacle selling in this country at a higher price than abroad, had the effect, on British West-India sugar, of raising it in price from 2s. 6d. to 3s. per cwt. In other words, the refiner for home consumption could afford to pay 3s. per cwt. more for his raw West-India sugar than the refiner for foreign exportation, who was obliged to send his treacle abroad. There was a real advantage, then, to the refiner of British West-India sugar of from 2s. 6d. to 3s., and it was proposed to insure to him the full advantage of 3s., which would place him on the footing of superiority always intended. The power of the Custom-house officer to underwrite, if too low a value were set upon foreign sugar entered for the purpose of being refined in bond, was a sufficient check that the full value would always be declared; and it was impossible that any particle of foreign sugar should be refined without intending it for exportation. He would just state a calculation which illustrated the point he had been arguing. He would take one cwt. of British West India sugar at 24s., and one cwt. of foreign at the same price, producing the same quantity, or sixty-one lbs. of refined sugar, eighteen lbs. of bastard, and twenty-eight lbs. of treacle. The refined sugar and the bastard (the produce of the British West-India sugar) were both sent to a foreign market and sold for 42s. The refiner had twenty-eight lbs. of treacle, which he disposed of at home for 6s., making in all 48s. The person who refined sugar in bond, on the other hand, though he got the same price for the refined sugar, was obliged to export his treacle, for which he received only 3s., which, added to 42s., made 45s., whilst the refiner for home consumption made 48s., or, in other words, the refiner for consumption at home got 48s. for what the refiner for consumption abroad got only 45s. The refiner for home consumption, therefore, could afford to pay 3s. more to the West-Indian, and that was an advantage preserved to him by this Bill. By allowing the Custom-house officer to underwrite at 3s. under the value of the sugar entered, it was put out of the power of the refiner of foreign sugar to do the refiner of British West-India sugar any injury. It was a great mistake, therefore, to suppose, that allowing the importation of foreign sugar for refining was an injury to the West-India refiner. Those who had attended to this tedious subject would bear testimony to the difficulty of it; and to them, at all events, he must have made himself understood. It was impossible the price of foreign sugar could be increased by being refined in this country, and there could be no stimulus given to its production, and such being the case, it must follow, that the West-Indian sugars could in no way be affected by the measure. The hon. Gentleman had spoken of the large quantity of foreign sugar imported this year. He said, that there were 8,000 boxes of foreign sugar in bond this year; whilst there were only 4,000 the year before! Why, did he not know that the vast increase in the importation was owing to the bonding system, which made this country the entrepôt of the world? The unsettled state of the Continent had greatly increased the quantity in bond. Merchants not wishing to expose their property in Antwerp or Hamburgh, sent it here only to be bonded and re-exported as required to the different ports of Europe. This large quantity of foreign sugar neither was, nor would be used here. The importation of foreign sugar had always exceeded the demand because it was meant for exportation. There had been, however, no time since 1828 when there were less than many thousand boxes of foreign sugar bonded. It came here it was true, but not to be used here. It was only of late years that it had been used at all by refiners in this country, and now only to a small extent. If the hon. Gentleman's assertion was correct, that so great an advantage might be derived from refining foreign sugar for exportation instead of British West-India sugar, why had the refiners closed their eyes to this advantage for so long a time? If 82 lbs. of refined sugar instead of 61 lbs. could be produced out of the cwt., would not the foreign sugar, yielding so large a proportion, come at once into the market? He held in his hand a paper which contained a return of the foreign sugar used in London by the foreign refiners. The hon. Gentleman opposite had moved for this return, but finding it did not answer his purpose, he had not referred to it. According to this return, how many refiners had used foreign sugar? Since 1828, the owners of only seventy-one pans—he took the owners of pans rather than refiners—had used foreign sugar. There were 250 pans in London, so that only a small proportion, not quite one-third, of the refiners that had pans had tried it at all. But how was it this year? Had the number of those who used the foreign sugar increased? The experiment had been tried by a person whom he would distinguish by the letter A, once, but he never used another ton, B tried the experi- ment four times, and then left it off for four quarters. Another refiner tried it for five months, and never used it again; and so on. Numbers had tried the experiment and abandoned it, and some few were still trying it. But if that great advantage should accrue which the hon. Gentleman had described—was it likely that those who had tried it for three months and twelve months should then abandon it? Could the House suppose that this could have occurred if so enormous a profit was to be made, by using foreign sugar instead of British West-India sugar? But had there been a great falling off in the importation of British West-India sugar, or of the quantity of British refined sugar exported? From the account of the quantity of British refined sugar exported for three years previous and three years subsequent to the passing of this Refining Act, it appeared, that there had been an increase in the importation of raw sugar as well as in the exportation of refined British West-India sugar, since the passing of the Act which it was contended operated so injuriously. Taking the average of the three years, 1825, 1826, and 1827, before the passing of the Act, the quantity of British West-India refined sugar exported, calculated in raw sugar, was 610,000 cwt., the average quantity of raw sugar imported in those three years was 4,145,000 cwt. The proportion exported, therefore, to the quantity imported, was as 14¾ percent. Taking the average of the three years 1828, 1829, and 1830, the quantity of British refined sugar exported was 872,000 cwt., and the whole quantity of colonial sugar imported was 4,879,000 cwt., being a proportion of eighteen per cent. This increase took place during the operation of this Bill, which, it was contended, diminished the use of British West-India sugar, by refining foreign for exportation. There had been a considerable increase in the quantity of the West-India sugar imported, and an increase amounting to twelve per cent on refined sugar exported, as compared with raw imported, in three years subsequent to the passing of the Refinery Act. This was a complete answer to the assertion as to the injurious effect of this measure, in diminishing the consumption of British West-India sugar. The single fact stated by the hon. Member, as he said, on the highest authority referred to the produce of foreign sugar in refining as compared with British West-India sugar. What the hon. Member considered the highest authority he knew not; but when the subject had been most attentively considered and investigated in the presence of all the persons concerned, including the person from whom the hon. Gentleman had his information, none of those persons could make out the case he had stated. No one but a refiner could state of his own knowledge what the foreign sugar produced, and no one could state that he knew a cwt. that produced more than sixty-one lbs. There was a gentleman from Glasgow who made an opposite statement, but this gentleman subsequently wrote to those who bought sugar for him in Liverpool, to say that he did not intend to continue refining foreign sugar. Now, if a cwt. of foreign sugar yielded eighty-two lbs., whilst the refiner was only bound to pay the duty on sixty-one lbs., no merchant would abandon so profitable a speculation. If all the profit the hon. Gentleman supposed could be made, or were at all likely to be made, the House might be satisfied that the refinery of foreign sugar would be carried on to a much greater extent. The hon. Gentleman's fact—for he only brought forward this solitary fact—thus came to nothing. It was impossible to give better proof on this subject than the little use which was made of foreign sugar; for if the parties were convinced that such an advantage would arise from refining foreign sugar, nothing could prevent all the foreign sugar of the world coming here to be refined. With respect to the argument, as to the employment, of British capital, he begged to remind the House, that British capital to an immense extent was now employed in the sugar business. A large amount of British capital was of necessity employed in the Brazils, where it was invested in sugar, which was sent to Antwerp, to Hamburgh, and to Amsterdam. Two or three millions of British capital went annually to the Brazils, which must come back in sugar, for there was nothing else in which it could be profitably invested. If any Gentleman would turn to the state of our trade with the Brazils, he would see that our exports to that country exceeded our imports, annually, by from two to three millions. The balance, of course, came home in something; and it really did come in sugar, though not to this country first. This argument, therefore, fell to the ground. The hon. Gentleman made an assertion on this subject on a former occasion, which it was due to a large body of respectable individuals to explain. He said, "Would you involve the interests of millions for the sake of advancing interests to the extent of 200,000l. or 300,000l.?" Instead of 200,000l. or 300,000l., there were 2,000,000l. or 3,000,000l. of British capital invested in the refining trade. He would ask his hon. friend, the member for Sandwich, or any other Gentleman, equally well acquainted with the trade, whether, if there were only 200,000l. or 300,000l. invested in it, they would be inclined to trust the refiners, or to give them the large credits which they did? He hoped that he had proved to the House that this measure might be adopted without injury to the West-India interest; at the same time that the refiners of sugar must be greatly benefited by it. Another advantage which might be expected to result from this measure was, the benefit which it would produce to the shipping interest. Indeed, he wondered this was not seen by those Gentlemen who generally took a part in favour of the shipping interest. He would call on his hon. friend, the member for the city of London, who was generally warm in the cause of the shipowners, to say whether he was not favourable to this measure? He must know, if he had considered this subject, that the importation of foreign sugar for refining was most beneficial to the interests of the British shipowners. A large amount of British capital was invested in the Brazils, the returns of which, principally in sugar, were sent to almost every port in Europe. In this voyage the American and the Dutch ship-owners, and the Hamburghers, came into competition with our shipowners. The Americans, too, our great rivals in maritime commerce, had an advantage. As regarded his ships, the American might be said to be a sort of citizen of the world. When he was in Hamburgh, he was as near home as if he were in any of the ports of Great Britain. But it was not so with the British shipowner. He was not at home when he got to Hamburgh, and he asked a higher rate of freight than the foreign shipowner if he brought his ship to any foreign country. This measure, however, gave the British shipowner the power of competing successfully with the foreign shipowner. A greater rate of freight was paid to the English shipowner, for sugar coming in foreign ships could not be put in bond for refining. To that extent, therefore, there was an encouragement to the British shipowner, and this trade afforded employment every year to 40,000 or 50,000 tons of British shipping. The hon. Gentleman had continually used the expression of "the British market." Ordinarily that meant the British market for consumption; but this Bill did not affect the British market for consumption—its effect was merely giving room for the establishment of works for refining for exportation. Under all the circumstances, he hoped the House would concur with him that there was sufficient ground to proceed without a Committee. If a Committee were granted, this attempt would be defeated. The first step of that Committee must be, to go into the investigation which had already taken place before the Board of Trade. This would lead to a trial of the experiment to which he had alluded; and, in the mean time, for a couple of months at least, this Bill would be hung up and its object totally defeated. They were told, indeed, by the hon. member for Cricklade, that even if this measure did not affect the West-Indian interest, it should not be passed, because they believed that it did, and that out of pity to their feelings they ought to abstain from carrying it into effect. He did sympathize with the distress under which the West-Indians were suffering; but he did not agree with the hon. Member as to the cause of that distress, and he hoped, as the House must be satisfied that this measure would not affect their interests, that it would not injure the interests of others, by refusing to pass this measure. He should, therefore, persevere in pressing upon the House the propriety of adopting the measure, at all events, for one year.

said, it was not his intention to detain the House at any length upon this question, because it lay in a very narrow compass. The simple question was, whether, before they legislated on this measure, they should or not enter into an inquiry upon the subject? He did not, mean to follow the right hon. Gentleman opposite through his very able speech; but, at the same time that he admitted the ability of his speech, he saw not the slightest argument for not granting the Committee, because he himself happened to be satisfied with those minor details into which others thought it necessary to enter, and which every man must make himself master of; he said it was a subject of difficulty, and therefore these details could only be examined in Committee. There was no question more difficult for Gentlemen to decide upon than the mode in which two contending interests were to be treated, so that neither might be injured; and it was frequently extremely difficult, when so placed, to accommodate the differences, or satisfy the parties that justice had been done. If any differences of that kind existed between those engaged in the refining of sugar, and those engaged in its importation, it was not the mode to conciliate by treating them lightly, particularly when they related to the welfare of our colonies. It was impossible to entertain a hope that either party would feel that their interests had been attended to, when the House refused to go into an inquiry upon the subject. The measure they were now considering, was introduced about four years since by Mr. Huskisson, on his principle of free trade, and as being calculated to benefit the West-India party. It was just possible that benefit would follow the adoption of the measure. But those interested on both sides made a representation to Government—the West-Indian expected the exclusion of foreign sugar. It was said the quantity of foreign sugar imported was so extremely inconsiderable, that it could not affect the interest of the sugar refiner on the one hand, nor would it take from the consumption of West-India sugar on the other; and when it fell to his lot to attend to these questions, he did, in his communication with both parties, consent so to look into the matter as to give the probability of the introduction of Brazilian sugar, in order that the experiment of Mr. Huskisson might have a fair trial. When that experiment was introduced, there were communications made by both parties. The West-Indian complained, indeed, that the reduction of the duty imposed on foreign sugar would be prejudicial to him, but the sugar refiners stated, that they did not consider the measure of importance; and they said that there was no particular desire, one way or the other, on the part of the refiners, and there was no decided opposition on the part of the West-Indian. But what were the circumstances now? The right hon. Gentleman intended to in- troduce a higher rate of duty; yet what was the feeling of the two parties? The sugar refiners were anxious to receive the sugar on the diminished duty; but what was the feeling of the West-Indians at that period? They felt no considerable alarm; now they felt considerable apprehensions as to the result. Proceeding on their information, his hon. friend said, the experience they had had of the last measure, determined the Ministers—one party pressing, and the other party opposing it—to adopt the present measure. Was not this circumstance of the great difference of opinion between these parties a sufficient ground to insist on an inquiry, to see whether the difference did not arise from a conviction, that it would tend greatly to the advantage of the one, and to the exclusion of the other? He had seen advocates from both parties, as well as their calculations; and he had not been able to decide why the measure was formerly of such little consequence, and now of such great importance. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said, this measure could not injure the West-Indians, but this could only be ascertained by inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman said, during the three years antecedent to this, it was 610,000 cwt., and during the three years subsequently, 870,000 cwt., and wished them to draw the inference, that the application of the Sugar Refining Act had tended to increase the exports of raw sugar. But that increase of the exports might be accounted for in a different manner. The sugar duties were reduced in July, 1830, and then the drawback continued till October, 1830, upon the rate of the higher duty enforced previously to July—therefore there were three months during which it was the interest of the refiner to avail himself of the increased drawback, and during that period exportation was considerably in favour of the refiner of sugar. This was a fact which met, in a great degree, the argument of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It was true that an inquiry must delay the passing of the measure; but that was the case in all inquiries, and was not a fair argument to be used by the opposite side of the House, as it was their fault that no notice had been given of their intention to renew the Act early enough to allow time for inquiry.

said, the hon. Gentleman opposite had very strongly urged that this measure should be referred to a Committee; but it must appear clear to every Gentleman, that going into a Committee of Inquiry at the present period, would make it impossible to pass the Bill during the present Session. Hon. Gentlemen said, they ought to have brought the subject forward earlier, and have gone into a Committee before; but would hon. Gentlemen recollect, that when, at a former period, Ministers offered to have a full inquiry upon all topics connected with the West Indies, they refused? Could the hon. Gentleman deny the fact, that when a proposition to that effect was made, he had said he was perfectly ready to consent to a Committee of Inquiry, and that it was then stated, that the information already before the House was sufficient, and that they ought to reduce the sugar duties without going into any further inquiry? With respect to the inquiry, he had not the least objection to a Committee; all he objected to was, that the Bill should stand over until that inquiry had been gone into. If, therefore, hon. Gentlemen wished to have as full an inquiry as they could have, a Committee for that purpose might be appointed; and, in the mean time, this Bill might be continued for one year, while this inquiry was pending. The right hon. Gentleman said, that his right hon. friend made an unfair statement in taking the exports of the last year, and the right hon. Gentleman had assumed that this was not according to strict justice, because, in the last year, the exports were much greater than in the preceding years; but if each year was taken separately, it would be found that a considerable increase of exports had taken place since the Bill was passed.

had always thought the great advantage of inquiry was for the purpose of laying the foundation of legislation. He feared that, after this year, the noble Lord would be troubled little more with any interposition on the part of the West Indies. If his Majesty's Ministers persevered in shewing the same system of indifference to the distress of the West-Indians, their power of interference would cease to exist. When it should appear that the House had refused to grant an inquiry into a measure which the West-Indians thought would alleviate their distress, the strong feeling which existed would produce consequences which would lead to a dissolution of our connexion with them. But the noble Lord had been pleased to say, that it was hard to take away the advantage from the refiners without notice; he seemed to think their claim paramount. It had been explained that, until the last year, no effects were produced; and now the effects had been produced, the refiner was anxious the measure should be continued. He was not prepared to enter into those details which had excited the attention of the House, but the circumstance which had been mentioned was a proof of the business not answering. The noble Lord said, the West-Indians declined going into a Committee of Inquiry; but it was not on this subject, but on the reduction of the duty. He was not surprised that his noble friend, with whom he had acted so many years, had objected to this Committee; but he would have acted more fairly if he had said, "We are determined to ruin the West-Indians." He believed their doom was fixed, and that, unless the House exerted itself, nothing could rescue them from ruin. He saw that some hon. Gentlemen had a sort of sympathy for the West-Indians. He would endeavour to do his duty to those who were interested, with many of whom he was connected. And he hoped the House would do its duty, by endeavouring to protect the interests of the British colonies.

thought the course recommended to the House by the noble Lord, was the most advantageous that could be adopted. What was the whole amount of foreign sugar used by the refiner? It did not exceed 130,000l. per annum, taking it on the calculation of the last year, which was so trivial that he was surprised that the West-India interest should object to this measure, and in doing so they were not looking to their own interests. The hon. Gentleman had entered into a long argument, which went to this point—that the introduction of foreign sugar increased the slave-trade. He was ready to admit, that the West-India interests were in a most extraordinary situation, arising out of the particular laws under which they were placed, with respect to their employment of slave labour, and the treaties made with other States for its abolition, which had not been observed, or which the Government had not the power of enforcing; and which non-observance, or non-performance, enabled the foreign sugar producer, not only to compete with ours, but to bring into the foreign market sugar at so low a price, that the British West-India sugar grower was totally ruined by this competition; for if they were freed from the operation of these laws, or if the treaties alluded to were strictly kept and observed, prices would be remunerative, and they would be enabled to contend with any and all competition. He admitted, on principle, that they were entitled to the monopoly of the home-market, but even although they had it now, they had not the fair benefit of it, as the price of sugar abroad fixed the price at home; and here, also, this unfair competition again met them, even in the home-market; therefore, though he was, on principle, a determined opposer of the system of supporting local interests by bounties which, in effect, taxed the community for the support of those local interests, he still contended, that a bounty should be allowed on exportation; particularly as the British public had had the benefit of consuming sugar at prices from thirty to fifty per cent cheaper than they would have had, if the treaties had been observed, or the laws alluded to had not been made, If, therefore, the British consumer had been so much, and so unexpectedly, and so undesiredly benefited, he surely could have no fair objection to refund a small portion of the advantages so gained to the West-India interests, and give to them a bounty of 4s. or 5s. on exportation; and a very small additional duty on the consumer would effect this object. Some remedies must be applied, or these interests must fall altogether. The only ones he knew of were these:—first, a practical observance of the treaties; second, a great reduction of the duty; third, a sufficient protection for the commodity. Certainly, the West-India interests might be very much benefited by allowing the whole subject to go to a Committee. He had always opposed the adoption of such a course as that now suggested, but this case was an exception from the general rule, and if he were on a Committee he could make it clear that the fact was as he had stated. If ever there was a case in which a benefit of some kind ought to be given to the West-India interests by a British public, it was that now under consideration; because the same circumstances that injured these interests, benefited the interests of the public. He would say that he was quite sure that the West-India interests would not be benefited by suffering this question of refining to go to a Committee; and if such a course were adopted, no beneficial result would ensue.

said, the speech of the learned Gentleman (Mr. Burge) was, certainly, very eloquent, and gave a very true picture of the state of the West-Indian interests; but he entirely denied that it was at all connected with the Bill at present before the House, or with the subject under discussion, which question he most carefully avoided. [Cries of Question.] Though he sat on the Opposition side of the House, he conceived that he had a right to complain of interruptions; and though he should not be deterred by them, he begged to assure the House, that he did not intend to inflict upon it the pain of hearing a long speech. At the same time, he should certainly proceed to offer a very few remarks notwithstanding these attempts to stop him. They had heard a great deal said about the distressed state of the West-Indian interests; he believed it was true that such distress did exist; but he denied that this Bill had any effect upon that distress, or that it would injure the present state of those interests. Nothing of the kind could have that effect. If the West-Indians were suffering, they were suffering from the course pursued by those who were now so vociferously cheering on this side of the House, and not from that adopted by the hon. Gentlemen on the other. But were the West-Indian interests only to be regarded? Were the refiners, who had between three and four millions embarked in their trade, not to be regarded? Were the Brazilian merchants not to be regarded? Were the manufacturers of this city, who sold the produce of the Brazils not to be regarded? He would undertake to shew to the House, and he would do so very shortly, that the refining trade was in a most distressed state at present. He knew that the interest of this country—or even the West-Indian interests, had not suffered more, and the refiners were in this distressed condition, because they were deprived of the raw material with which to carry on their manufactures. If there was any doubt upon this subject, and there appeared to be a good deal, if he might judge from the conversation which he heard passing around him, it became the more necessary that he should state the facts of which he was in possession, and he should persist in stating them, not- withstanding any interruption which might be made. Where there were forty or fifty refiners seventeen years ago, there was not one now. In 1822, there were 303 pans of sugar worked in London. As a proof that it frequently happened that the refiners were not able to get the raw material wherewith to work, he would state to the House, that from the year 1818 to the year 1830, the average amount of casks of sugar was only 10,000; and, at one particular time of the year, these 10,000 casks included every variety and description of sugar. During the last ten years, at late periods of the year, the refiners had had no raw material to work with, and the amount introduced had altogether very much decreased. Could the West-India interests be more deserving of consideration than those? In consequence of the depression of this branch of the trade, many of the largest houses in London were now completely ruined; one house in particular—it was not necessary to mention names—expended in the year 1818, on their premises the sum of 120,000l., and seven years afterwards, that was to say in 1825, their fixtures were sold for 7,500l. Another house expended 780,000l.; their fixtures were offered for 10,000l. and no purchaser could be found. Now, if this was the case—and there could be no doubt that it was, the distress of this branch of the trade was equal to that of the West-India interests; and when it was proved that the refiners had been obliged to stop for want of the raw material, they had the very strongest claim to be allowed a supply of it, wherewith to carry on their business. What took place on a former occasion? The West-Indians applied to Government, praying that no produce should be employed in this country but that which was of their own cultivation. If this demand had been acceded to, what would have been the extent of the increase in the manufacture? The same quantity of sugar must be produced in the Brazils; and the question was not whether the sugar was refined here, or introduced in the hope of its being consumed here, but whether all sugars were to be made available, or whether the advantages arising should only be enjoyed by a few individuals. This Act must, on every ground of justice, be revived; it could not be taken away without any notice whatever; it was well known that it expired at a particular time. No ob- jection had been offered—no material objection, at least, by the parties interested, and he trusted they could state no reason why the Act should not be revived. The inquiry which was now asked for could be going on while this Bill was in operation, but to with hold this measure now, would-be an act of glaring and gross injustice.

said, that having taken part in the discussion on a former occasion, and having endeavoured from that time to this to do what was right, and having seen the parties interested both for and against, he was desirous, in a very few words, to state to the House what conclusion he had come to, after a full and candid deliberation. Before doing that, however, he must say, that he most cordially concurred in the statements which had been made of the distress under which the West-India merchants laboured. He was prepared to say, too, that they were entitled to the entire market of this country for their produce, though an enemy to monopolies generally, because it was but fair that, instead of acting against the West-India interests, they should open their market to them, and give them every possible equivalent for the expenses which they threw upon these colonies. He was most anxious that everything should henceforth be done to advance their interests; but the policy of the late Government, and the policy of the present Government, as yet, had been very injurious to these colonies, and had tended to destroy their credit. Having said thus much, it was, perhaps, hardly necessary to observe, that if this Bill, in its present state, was the cause of evil, he would not persist in advising his Majesty's Ministers to adopt this course. The question before the House at the present moment was this—the sugar refining was a business of very considerable importance in this country; and from the year 1820, to go no further back, it appeared that the quantity of refined sugar in 1820 was 600,000 cwt; this quantity greatly decreased in 1823, until 1825, when it was reduced to 300,000 cwt, which was just one-half of the first quantity; and, therefore, in fact, a most entire destruction had taken place in this branch of trade. He then concurred in the admission of the Sugar Refining Bill, but under the conviction that every ounce of sugar refined should be exported to a foreign country, and that they should give the West-India planter the entire supply of the whole market. As to its being any disadvantage to the West-Indians to pass this measure, he was quite prepared to shew that such was not the case. This was a new branch of trade introduced into this country; and if he could show that, in consequence of the change which had taken place, the sugar exported had increased twice as much as the whole imports of foreign sugar which had taken place—if he could prove, by a return in his possession, that it had increased near fifty per cent,—and if the whole amount of foreign sugar imported into this country had increased only thirty per cent, if he could shew that the work of the refiner of foreign sugar had been going on, and that the export of refined sugar had been increased—if these facts were borne out, as they were by the return he held in his hand, they had gained this most important point—they had gained a new trade, and they had given increased employment to the shipping and manufactures of this country. He had in his possession a letter from Trieste, dated January 1831, in which it was stated that the refined sugars of England were now in competition with, and were actually throwing out, the white sugars from other parts of the world; clearly shewing, that if they could be refined at a cheaper rate than other commodities of the same description—as he believed they could be,—they would then come into competition with foreign sugars, and thus give employment to our capital and manufactures, without injuring the value of West Indian property. If this was the case he was quite satisfied that those hon. Gentlemen themselves, who were so anxious for the West-Indian interests—and he was quite sure they could not be more anxious to preserve them than he was, for he would not give one farthing to encourage other interests at their expense,—those hon. Gentlemen would allow that they had no just cause for apprehension. A Committee was now to be allowed: that was the great point which he had been anxious to obtain. He would ask his hon. and learned friend below him (Mr. Burge), what more could he have than a Committee? He asked for that which he thought should have been asked for some time ago; if, therefore, his Majesty's Government now agreed, as, indeed, they did, to grant a Committee in the meantime, why not allow this Bill to come into operation? The hon. Gentle- man, the member for Cricklade, asked, "Was it usual to have a Committee first, and to legislate afterwards?" It certainly was not, but that was not the question upon this occasion; the law had been made, and the question was, whether it should remain in operation for a few months longer; and in the mean time, this inquiry was to be instituted. He was quite satisfied that it was not possible to interfere, by the operation of this measure, with the profits of the West-Indians; and they, therefore, ought to maintain and encourage this new branch of exports and imports. In this view of the case, it was impossible for him to withhold his support from his Majesty's Government; they had agreed to give an inquiry, and, therefore he would advise the West-India Government to close with this proposition; and, in the mean time, to allow this Bill to come into operation, and if, in the course of the inquiry, which would be a very short one, it should appear that these interests were injured by the proportionate price of foreign sugar, in order to protect them, a clause might be added to the Bill, giving the power of altering this proposition. This could be done with the greatest ease before the end of the Session. He would not detain the House further than by saying, that he should vote with his Majesty's Ministers.

must, injustice to his own character, say one word to the House. The vote he should give would depend upon the question whether it be or be not true, that the effect of this measure would be to give an advantage to the slave-trading colonies, to the prejudice of our own possessions. He had listened to that part of the subject with the greatest attention, but he had heard nothing to induce him to distrust the effect of this Bill. It was well known that in the Brazils in one year there were 50,000 slaves imported, and he had a strong bias, therefore, in favour of colonial sugar, as by encouraging that branch of trade, they would do away with an immensity of human misery. He had listened with great attention to the right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and to the answers which had been made to him, which really appeared to amount to nothing whatever. His Majesty's Government had consented to afford an inquiry, and if that inquiry proved the apprehensions of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite to be well founded, he should support him. He felt every possible respect for the distresses of the West-India merchants, but he could not sit down without observing, that they might do much better for themselves than this House could do for them. He had made inquiries upon this subject,—though he was a young Member of that House he was not a very young man—and the result of these inquiries satisfied his mind that they had their remedy in their own hands.

asked the attention of the House for five minutes. He was most surprised at the line of argument which had been taken by the hon. member for Middlesex on this occasion. He would put it to the House whether it was consistent with his usual course of proceeding, whether he was not acting in direct opposition to the very principles he professed in this House on former occasions? He was very much surprised to hear the noble Lord opposite, in the course of the observations which he made to-night with respect to the profits of refiners, accuse his hon. and learned friend of bringing forward this proposition without notice. Was not this the very point on which they had been quarrelling with the noble Lord on other measures, that he brought them forward without notice? Did he give the growers of Cape wines any notice? The noble Lord, forgetting his former conduct, had really fallen into the grossest inconsistency that man could be guilty of. The right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, said "If you do not adopt this measure you will not give the parties interested in the Brazil trade an opportunity of getting a return for their exports." Did the sugars that came to this country from the Brazils constitute any material portion of these exports? Did not the right hon. Gentleman know that the imports into this country from the Brazils, including the precious metals, which formed a considerable part of them, much exceeded the amount of our exports? In truth, without taking up any more of the time of the House, he must say, that the statements of his hon. and learned friend below him had not been satisfactorily answered, and he was well aware that no opportunity of answering them would now be given. He would, therefore, sit down, observing, that this Government like some other Governments, required the House to legislate on their own dicta; and his hon. and learned friend asked them to wait till inquiry had satisfied the Government and the House of the state of the case.

stated, that he should oppose the Bill in every stage. He should suppose the noble Lord would give it up after the manifestation which had just taken place of the opinion of the House.

supported the same view; he hoped the Ministers would reconsider the question. He thought that after such a division, they would hardly be warranted in proceeding.

said, if he thought the vote he had given would severely injure the West-India interests, he should very much regret it, but he was convinced, from the calculations and facts that had been placed before the House, that it was utterly impossible the measure on which they had just gone to a division could have that effect. No person could be more impressed with the importance of the colonies in relation to the mother country than himself, if, therefore, he could have believed the rejection of this Bill could have relieved them, he should most assuredly have supported the Amendment. He did not propose to go into the general question, but he was surprised the colonial interest had not accepted the offer of the noble Lord to bring under the consideration of the House the whole question. The present measure was but temporary and was demanded by justice towards the refiners. It was not a measure of the present Ministers, it had originated with the former Administration. The question simply was, whether the interest which had been raised up under the former Bill should be wholly destroyed for the chance of benefitting property in the West Indies. Notwithstanding the small majority he was of opinion that the Bill ought to be persevered in. If it were given up, that could only tend to embarrass Ministers.

said, the hon. Baronet was in some degree mistaken, the Bill before them was not the Bill of the late Ministers. That Act had expired two months since, and. he understood the measure before them differed in many particulars from the former measure.

said, the Act differed in details only, the calculations on which those details were founded, having been changed since the introduction of the former measure. The present Bill was suited to the existing state of the market, as the former Bill had been to the state of the market at the time of its enactment.

must also press upon the noble Lord the inexpediency of continuing to proceed with the Bill after the result of this second division. All the weight of Government had been thrown on one side, and it had barely insured them a majority. He was determined to continue to oppose the Bill, which he believed was pregnant with evils to the West-Indian interests.

also differed from the hon. Baronet. He had no connexion or interest with the West-Indian colonies, but from the best consideration he could give the subject, he was convinced that the measure before them would have a mischievous effect, and the smallness of the majority was a sufficient reason that it should be abandoned.

said, that having examined the question and re-examined it, and still believing that it was just and proper to be adopted, he could not feel it consistent with his duty to abandon it.

would oppose the Bill, because it would increase the foreign slave-trade.

suggested, that the Bill ought to be re-enacted for six months only.

could not agree to that suggestion. The Report brought up, and the resolution, "That it is expedient farther to continue an Act of the first year of his present Majesty, to allow sugar to be delivered out of warehouses to be refined, and to amend the provisions of an Act of the ninth year of his late Majesty relating thereto" having been agreed to, the Bill was ordered to be brought in, founded upon the same.