presented sixteen Petitions from several parishes in the county of Kilkenny, in favour of the Irish Reform Bill. Amongst them were those of Thomastown, Callan, St. Patrick's, St. John's, St. Mary's, St. Canice, in the city of Kilkenny, Freshford, Kilmana, Urlingford, Durrow, Killaloe, Graig, and from Kinsale, in the county Cork. There was also a Petition from the citizens of Kilkenny, praying for an additional Member, which, the hon. Member said, Kilkenny richly deserved, whether as regarded its trade or population, or its contribution towards the revenue of the kingdom. The latter had advanced from 12,000l. to 47,000l. per annum. Under these circumstances, he thought it most unfair that, while Galway, Limerick, and Belfast were to get additional Representatives under the Reform Bill, Kilkenny was to be excluded from the same privileges. Further, he would ask, upon what ground it was proposed to give the College of Dublin an additional Representative, which contained a constituency of about fifty or sixty persons, while the city of Kilkenny, with a population of 25,000 souls, and the seat of commerce and manufacture, was to be passed by unnoticed in the new plan for extending the popular Representation.

was not surprised that the learned member for Kilkenny should feel indignant at the treatment which the city he represented had received at the hands of the projector of this new measure of Reform; but although he admitted his right to complain of this circumstance, he must say, that he conceived it most unfair of that hon. Member to disparage the claims of another constituency. The University could not boast of 25,000 inhabitants, but it could boast of this (and it was the ground upon which it rested its claim to an additional Representative), that it was the seat of learning and of education for Ireland. These were the claims of the University to the privilege which the hon. Member had thought fit to disparage, for what reason he was quite at a loss to tell. He (Mr. Lefroy) was quite aware that this was not the time to enter on the discussion of this question; but when the time had arrived, he trusted he should be able to satisfy the House, that the objections of the hon. Member were not such as should be entertained.

said, the University of Dublin boasted, that it was the only University in Ireland, but he might with great safety say, that it was the only thing it had to boast of—a more stupid University did not exist in any country. It had not produced a single work the name of which was worth recollecting; nor had it performed a single act of public utility that could entitle it to respect or consequence. On the contrary, it was the nursery of faction, and, in place of diffusing useful information and morality, some of its teachers were employed in performing the parts of political partizans, encouraging faction and bigotry, and poisoning every circle of social intercourse, by setting man against man, and producing religious animosities amongst all classes of the people. And this University had 100,000 acres of arable land, and 40,000l. a-year—although its constituency amounted only to ninety-six, it had the privilege of sending a Member to that House; and as he had touched on that point, he felt it his duty to state, that a more corrupt or shocking scene of perjury never was witnessed at any Irish election than at this very University of Dublin—this seat of learning, as the hon. and learned Member had thought proper to designate it. He (Mr. O'Connell) could not believe, until he had read the Irish Reform Bill, that it was intended to commit so monstrous a crime against the people of Ireland, as to give one, out of the paltry number of five additional Members, to this worthless nest of faction, corruption, and stupidity. He would not, upon that occasion, say anything more upon the subject, but he hoped, if there was a spark of feeling or sympathy in that House for Ireland, and unless the professions of hon. Members were mere lip-service, that this mon- strous and iniquitous proposition would be scouted with the contempt it merited.

, supported the observations of the hon. member for Kerry. The scenes which took place at elections in the University of Dublin were most disgraceful; and instead of a seat of learning, it would have been much more appropriate to call it the seat of party spirit, faction, and corruption. The hon. Member had stated that no work of consequence had been produced by the University. He, however, begged to remind the hon. Member, that a very celebrated work had been written on tithes by a learned member of that University, and in order to mark the sense of gratitude entertained by the University for this splendid effort of literary merit, the author was elevated to the office of Provost. The worth and talents, indeed, of individuals such as Dr. Sadlier and the Reverend Mr. Sandes, were almost calculated to redeem the character of the University from public odium, and these would live at least as long in public estimation as that of the hon. Gentleman who represented the University. It was, however, to be lamented that such men as those were exceptions to the general rule.

defended the University of Dublin from the aspersions of the hon. member for Kerry. He denied that no work of merit had been produced by the College of Dublin, and in proof of the truth of his remark, he adduced the works of the late Archbishop of Dublin, of Dr. Elrington, and others. The reason why they had not produced as many works as other Universities arose fron the fact, that the time of the members was almost wholly occupied in the education of youth.

presented a Petition from the city of Cork, praying for an alteration in the mode of appointing Civic Officers in that city. The petition was very numerously signed, and by some of the most influential gentlemen of that city. It stated that, notwithstanding the Catholic Relief Bill, the Corporation of Cork had, by their own regulations, prevented the operation of that measure in the manner in which Parliament had intended, and that Catholics were, with few exceptions, not admitted into the Corporation though paying local burthens, and doing their share of the duties of good citizens. They stated that the Corporation had been perpetuating in Protestants the right of appointing Sheriffs and Juries, and that this was often exercised in a manner very offensive to them, and injurious to the public welfare; and they prayed that in future another and a better mode of appointing officers in authority over them should be adopted—a result which he trusted would, before long, be obtained by some beneficial measure to be introduced by his Majesty's Government, to whose attention, seeing the right hon. Secretary for Ireland in his place, he particularly recommended the petition. He begged leave to add, that it was agreed to at a public meeting, and contained the sentiments of almost all those of his constituents who at present gloried in being Reformers and correctors of all abuses; at the same time, he would not deceive the House by any statement that it conveyed the sentiments of the Corporation themselves, or of those who thought the Corporation useful.

supported the prayer of the petition, as well upon the grounds stated by his hon. friend, the member for Cork, as that he had been requested to do so by many of the respectable persons who had signed the petition, and with whom he had the pleasure of being acquainted. There was no where to be found a closer or more bigotted Corporation than that of the city of Cork, which elected the magistracy of that place, and which, through its various ramifications and agencies levied taxes to the amount of more than 70,000l. a-year upon the citizens. This fact he was prepared to prove, and concluded by stating, that the prayer of the petition was entitled to the prompt attention of the Legislature.

said, that the same observation would apply to the state of the Dublin Corporation, and he hoped soon to see an end to this abuse.

presented a Petition from the Manufacturers of Soap at Cork, which expressed very clearly the grievance of which they had a just right to complain, and praying for an alteration in the law which gave to the manufacturer in England an undue drawback, by which the petitioners were driven out of the trade. He stated that the returns on the Table of that House shewed, that for the last three years the export of soap from England to Ireland was enormous, and that it was every year increasing. By that export the manufacturer in Ire- land had been driven wholly to abandon his trade. The House would bear in mind, that as no duty existed on soap in Ireland, English soap, going to that country was, justly entitled in principle to a drawback equal to the duty paid in England; but the petitioners believed, that not only was this duty in England imperfectly collected and evaded, though the drawback was certain, that abuses existed which could be proved, and were known to the Excise, and he was enabled to state, that the Government, yielding to the entreaties of his constituents, had sent down to Liverpool one of the Commissioners of Excise, whose report he had read, and it admitted, that a certain allowance of ten per cent in the duty, in lieu of waste, was an abuse—that, in practice, the manufacturer who made soap for export sent it off before it wasted anything whatever, and it recommended that this allowance should be abolished. Notwithstanding this, however, nothing was done by Ministers to remedy this part of the abuse. He quite concurred in the statements on this subject made to the House by the hon. Alderman (the member for London), who had repeatedly addressed the House on the same subject, from information derived from the most intelligent manufacturers in the city of London, who were anxious, and had petitioned the House, for an alteration such as his constituents prayed for. He would assure the House, and especially the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, whose duty he hoped it would be to see that this oppression should not be continued, that he could not more effectually stop much of the growing disaffection that was pervading the mercantile community of Ireland, than by attention to this subject. He could assure the right hon. Gent. that he was personally acquainted with most of those who signed the petition—that they were loyal and respectable; but that many of them felt they were the victims of what he would call English injustice and knavery. Since this unjust drawback had annihilated their trade, they were become more zealous Repealers of the Union than influence, however powerful, or the example of other persons, however respected, could have made them.

presented a Petition from Edinburgh praying the House to take all constitutional means to ensure the success of the unmutilated Reform Bill. It had been agreed to at the largest public meeting ever held in that neighbourhood. The petition bore the signatures of 38,700 persons, the greater part of whom had affixed their places of abode or professions. He had been thus particular in stating this fact, on account of the extraordinary misstatements that had been made in the other House on the subject of these meetings. It had there been said, that one of these meetings did not consist of more than 700 or 800 persons—a statement so truly incredible, that he was surprised how any individual could be found so to impose on the credulity of the noble Earl who made the statement. Whether such a statement was to be made as to this meeting he was not aware; but from the information he had received from the hon. Baronet who presided, and from the gentleman who acted as secretary, he was prepared to refute any such statement by the fact, that a certain number of the meeting proceeded thither in procession, and were counted as they entered the area: these, alone, amounted to upwards of 10,000; and a military engineer, who was accustomed to such calculations, had measured the ground occupied by the meeting, and given it as his opinion, that its number could not be less than between 30,000 and 40,000. At all events the petition was signed by 38,700 persons in thirty-six hours. He was also further bound to add, that the meeting was characterized, from the beginning to the end, by the most orderly and exemplary conduct; and he had been informed of the remarkable fact, that, on the day after the meeting, there was not at the police offices one single case of riot or disorder. He might also mention, that the day after the great Glasgow meeting, there was only one-fifth of the usual number of cases at the police-offices; both of which facts he would insist upon as a strong proof of the propriety of conduct observed by the people at these Reform meetings.

did not rise to confute that which had been stated by the learned Lord, or to deny that there prevailed a strong feeling in favour of Reform in the city which he (Mr. Dundas) represented; but he wished he could agree with the learned Lord, that the most constitutional means were resorted to in getting up the meeting. He did not pretend to dispute about numbers, though he also had the authority of an engineer for saying, that, allowing four to one square yard, there could not have been more than 9,000 persons present. He was not authorized to mention this gentleman's name publicly, but should be quite ready to satisfy the learned Lord in private of the fact. This meeting, however, had proved one thing—that those who had hitherto been considered the supporters of Ministers in Scotland, had now allowed themselves to be united with that class of persons which, if the recommendation of the King's Speech had been followed by the Government, would have long ago been suppressed—he alluded to the Political Unions; and it was with the greatest regret he had heard that a gallant officer, who held a high commission in his Majesty's service, and who had recently received a mark of his Majesty's favour, in being appointed to the command of one of the most gallant regiments in the army—the ninety-second—had condescended to take part in the proceedings of the day, although, in various parts of the ground, there were displayed banners of a most revolutionary tendency, such as "put no trust in princes"—"the warning to Belahazzar," representing the King without his head; and flags declaring the glory of the revolution in France. He was convinced that, although every man in the regiment would cheerfully obey the orders which, in discharge of his duty, that gallant officer might give them, there was not a private among them, if he inherited the spirit of the country that gave him birth, but would gladly have torn down these banners on the spot. He could not but regard the conduct of persons who thus allied themselves with seditious meetings, to be highly deserving of reprobation. If they had not the courage to denounce such a meeting, at least they should abstain from taking part in its proceedings. One thing he would assert; it was not owing to the Political Unions, but to the good sense of the lower classes of Edinburgh, that the most atrocious acts of violence were not committed after the meeting was over.

must say, that the course the hon. Member had taken, in thus attacking a private individual, might do much mischief to the gallant officer in question, but could do no good to the cause which the hon. Member meant to serve. If the meeting was legally convened, an officer in, the army was not to be prevented, merely on account of his commission, from attending it; for he trusted that officers in the army were to be allowed to entertain political opinions on what side they thought proper. He, therefore, hoped that the hon. Member, or at least the House, would see the im- propriety of the attack he had made, and would not think of holding the gallant officer responsible for all that was done by every individual in every distant corner of the field where the meeting assembled.

said, he had never heard a more unwarrantable attack made. Because a person of high influence chose to put himself forward, and become, perhaps, thereby, the very means of preventing violence, the hon. Member thought himself justified in making one of the most injurious and most uncalled-for attacks he (Mr. Kennedy) ever heard in all his life. Considering the strong feeling that existed in Scotland, they ought rather to rejoice that it had found vent in the manner in which it had. He was the last man to excuse the violence of the placards; but still there was ground for congratulation that, under all the circumstances, a much stronger feeling had not been displayed. It was very easy to depreciate numbers on occasions like this, but he was prepared to maintain that the meeting was most numerously attended, and that, though no means were taken for procuring signatures, it received 38,000 names in two days. He might be told that it contained such signatures as those of Napoleon and Hadji Baba; but that only proved that those opposed to Reform had been mean enough to endeavour to cast obloquy on the petition in this paltry manner. All Scotland ought to rejoice that the strong feelings which prevailed had found a vent so peaceable as that of speeches at public meetings—that the crisis had passed away without more fatal consequences—and that the people had only struck terror into their enemies by the force of public opinion.

wished the House to remember, that this meeting was called together in consequence of the King exercising his just prerogative, and not tamely obeying the immediate mandate of his Ministers. From the commencement of the Reform Bill he had been most anxious to see the question treated with fair deliberation; but from the beginning he had found the Government resisting that, and, on the other hand, doing all in its power to excite the feelings of the country. At his own election, because he professed his honest opinions, and refused to vote for "the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill," there were persons, in conjunction with the Government, who took care to suppress anything like deliberation; and this had been the case at all other public meetings, whether the object was to petition Parliament, or to elect a Representative. They were now arrived at that stage at which the power of the King and the House of Lords was entirely superseded; under these circumstances he had made up his mind as to the Scotch Reform Bill. He considered it quite unnecessary to offer any suggestions respecting it, because it was well known that the Government would admit of no alterations. The Ministry was now not only invested with their own customary official power, but also with the power of the King and of both Houses of Parliament. It was, therefore, better to leave to them all the responsibility and inconvenience that must attend on a measure carried in so unconstitutional a manner.

knew that the greater part of the persons who attended the meeting were not in alliance with the Political Unions. As to the reference that had been made to the supposed misconduct of the gallant officer, he was prepared to contend, that the part he took was highly creditable to himself, and that it was monstrous to say, that he was to be responsible for the emblems displayed at the meeting. He would put it to the hon. member for Edinburgh, or to any man of common sense, whether a person on the hustings was to be answerable for individuals rearing fantastical or improper flags on the skirts of the meeting? Would the hon. Member have had the gallant officer vindicate his loyalty by making a violent attack on the banners of such an assembly? Why, surely that would have been the very way to have excited the feelings of the people, and to have given the signal for a breach of the peace. With respect to the emblems displayed, the worst he had heard of were, that the royal crown was encompassed with crape, and that, on one occasion, a portrait of the head of the King was reversed: but he had every reason to suppose that the gallant officer was equally ignorant with himself, at the time, of such emblems being exhibited.

next rose to present a similar Petition from the town of Perth, which had been voted so late as the month of January last. The petition was signed by seven Peers, by all the Magistrates and persons of property in the county, and by 27,000 of the inhabitants.

was not disposed to impugn the respectability of the petition, but, as it came from the county with which he was connected, he thought it necessary to say a few words on the subject. He could not deny that the petition certainly bore a great many respectable names; but he nevertheless felt himself fully justified in complaining of the very unfair grounds on which the petition had been got up. The intimation of calling the meeting began by what was not founded on fact. It commenced by stating the names of those who had signed a previous Reform petition; and it then intimated, that they were privately exerting themselves to obtain signatures to an Address to the King, and to a petition to Parliament, both of which were hostile to Reform. He denied the facts, and denounced the misstatement as a very unworthy and dishonourable artifice. He totally denied, that those who called the Perth meeting were justified in representing to the people that the former petitioners were enemies to Reform. The intimation was not consistent with truth, for those who had got up and signed the previous petition were not the enemies, but the friends of Reform, as the petition itself, now a record of that House, would fully prove. He begged those who entertained any doubt upon the subject to refer to the petition itself, and they would find that it set forth that "the petitioners would not withhold their acquiescence from such changes of the Representation as, from the lapse of time and alteration of circumstances, appeared to be necessary." He would now appeal to the House, whether it was consistent with truth to represent such persons as the enemies of Reform. But the advertisement calling the Perth meeting had affixed to it the names of many respectable persons, who never had given their sanction to their names being used for any such purpose. He would now come to the number of persons said to have been present at the meeting, and he would show that nothing could be more vague and unsatisfactory than the calculations made upon such subjects. One person of respectability had written to him stating that no more than 6,000 persons had been present, men, women, and children, and that had it not been a market-day, the numbers would not have been so great. Another person, a great promoter of the meeting, had written to him saving that there were 25,000 persons present, besides many who were attracted by curiosity. The vagueness of such estimates proved that very little reliance could be placed upon any of them. He was willing to give a very great latitude to the collection of signatures to petitions of this nature, but he nevertheless could not attach any very great degree of respect or importance to the signatures to the present petition, because in order to obtain them means utterly unjustifiable (such as threats of incendiarism) had been resorted to. Before he sat down, he must take the liberty of alluding to a calumny against the Scottish people, which that appeared a proper opportunity to notice, he alluded to a statement which appeared in The Times newspaper of the 27th of January last, which he held in his hand, and which was also inserted, in somewhat similar terms, in many other newspapers throughout the country. The statement in The Times was as follows. It purported to be a report of what was said by a noble and gallant friend of his, in presenting, in another place, a petition from the county of Perth, exactly similar to that which the learned Lord opposite had now presented to this House. 'Lord Lynedoch denied that any such language had been used at this meeting by the gentlemen in question. He had never heard of the circumstance before. As he was now on his legs, he would mention a fact which would show how strong the feeling in favour of Reform was in Perthshire. At the time their Lordships were discussing the question, whether the Reform Bill should be read a second time, a great number of weavers assembled every day at Perth to see the south mail come in, and to learn the intelligence which it brought. After the news came down that the Bill was rejected, they stopped the mail to know whether there had been any disturbances in London. The guard replied in the affirmative, and said, that the Duke of Wellington and another illustrious individual had been shot by the mob. This intelligence, which ought to have excited general disgust and indignation, was hailed with satisfaction by the assembled multitude, and in the vehemence of their indignation against the rejectors of the Reform Bill, they so far forgot the humanity of their natures as to go to a noble and gallant friend of his, and ask him whether they ought not to celebrate the fate of the Duke of Wellington and his colleague by a general illumination.' Now, he must say, that that statement was most calumnious. He, at least, could not credit, that any assembly of men could have so far forgotten the humanity of nature as to rejoice publicly in murder. No people in the world were less likely so to debase themselves than the people of Scotland, for there was not a more moral or humane people on the face of the earth. He believed, that the whole story was entirely without foundation, and for the honour of human nature he hoped that it was so. Either the nobleman in question had made a statement utterly devoid of truth, or the people of Scotland were entirely depraved, and had abandoned that character which for ages had belonged to them, and which he trusted ever would belong to them. When they could openly rejoice in an act of cruel and dastardly murder, perpetrated in the streets of London, and upon a man who of all men living had rendered the greatest and most important services to his country, they must indeed be sunk into the lowest depths of degradation. That noble person in whose assassination the people were said to have rejoiced, had not only rendered the most exalted services to his own country, but to the whole of Europe. It had been his good fortune to defend the independence of his country against her enemies—against a proud, unprincipled usurper, who had calumniated the people of England as a race insensible to glory, and incapable of deeds of arms, as one entire nation of shopkeepers. Yes, the Duke of Wellington had defended his countrymen against this charge and had raised the glory of the nation in arms higher than it had ever been raised at any previous period of her history. To that illustrious man, when he had completed his great exploits in war, was allotted the glory of redeeming the land of his birth from the stigma and ruin of religious intolerance. This was an act of equal, if not of greater importance, than all his achievements in the field. Let the country reflect upon such distinguished benefits, and then picture to itself the people of Scotland thirsting for his blood, and prepared to rejoice at the news of his death by murder. If it were possible that such a report could be correct—if it were possible that the people of Scotland were in such a state of excitement as thus to abandon all moral sentiment, and to discard every religious feeling—he should then say, that the petitions of such a people were of no value whatever. Whether the petitions of a people thus excited to depravity, thus lost to all humanity, were signed by 27,000 or 27,000,000 of names, he should say that they were utterly unworthy of the slightest attention.

had not been aware, before he entered the House, that it was the intention of the learned Lord to present the petition from Perth; but, as he was pre- sent at that meeting, he would take the liberty of saying a few words about it. As far as he was able to judge (and his opinion had been confirmed by others), there were about 7,000 or 8,000 persons within hearing of the proceedings, and about as many more beyond earshot; so that the whole number of the meeting was about 15,000. He could say with satisfaction, that the meeting was both loyal and peaceable. He had moved the first resolution himself, which expressed attachment to the Throne.

was sure that the people of Scotland would never rejoice in assassination; but, in referring to the Duke of Wellington, that might be taken in a double sense; for, though they might have full respect for the Duke's military achievements, they might, at the same time, be glad that his political course—which, in Scotland, was deemed so mischievous—was at an end.

had had the honour of serving under the Duke of Wellington, and would, therefore, say nothing against him. Indeed, on the contrary, he believed his Grace to be the first soldier of the world; but he (Colonel Evans) must nevertheless add, that it was with peculiar regret he had seen him bartering the well earned glories of military victory, for the doubtful honours of a political career.

, said, that though he differed from the Duke of Wellington's politics—though he rejoiced he did not come into office to pass the measure he had so often protested against—he could not sit silent and hear any palliation for the conduct of any individual who could rejoice in the supposed murder of that noble Duke. He felt assured that Scotland would not feel indebted to the hon. member for Dumfermline for palliating such a monstrous proposition.

I beg to explain, that I meant no disrespect to the Duke of Wellington.

presented a Petition from the county of Norfolk, in favour of the removal.

presented a petition from the north western portions of the county, against the removal, and four from other parts of the county to the same pur- pose. He had presented, a year ago, a petition for the same purpose signed by forty-eight Magistrates.

said, the general feeling of the county was in favour of the removal, and the petition just presented by the right hon. member for Norwich was signed, amongst others, by seventy or eighty Magistrates.

moved the second reading of the Bill for removing the Assizes for the county of Norfolk from the town of Thetford to the city of Norwich. The right hon. Gentleman explained that, by the Act of 11th Richard 2nd, it was ordered that the Assizes should be held in the county town, but that this having been found in some cases, inconvenient, it had subsequently, in the same reign, been directed that the Lord Chancellor and the Judges might direct the Assizes to be held in other towns. The latter Act did hot, however, repeal the former; and subsequent statutes, particularly those for regulating the holding of Assizes in Cumberland and Cornwall, recognised its existence. In the county of Norfolk, the Assizes were held alternately at Norwich and Thetford; and the holding them at the latter place was found to be very inconvenient, because that town was situated at one extremity of the county, and the greater number of prisoners had to be brought from Norwich, which was a considerable distance from Thetford. Norwich was, in all respects, the most convenient place for holding the Assizes, and it was the wish of the great majority of the inhabitants that they should be held there. The expense of sending prisoners, attornies, and witnesses all the way to Thetford was very great. At Thetford, too, there was no accommodation for either Barristers, Judges, or prisoners, while at Norwich the accommodation was abundant. The necessity for passing the Bill arose from an application having been made to the Judges to remove the Assizes, who were unwilling to comply with the request. There was some doubts of their power, and a great dislike on their part to exercise it. The change was necessary for the due administration of justice, and a Bill was necessary to effect it, because there was no other certain means. He might be told, perhaps, to introduce a general measure, but lie could not take such a task on himself; but there was a crying grievance which it was within his power, by the assistance of the House, to remedy. He, moved that the Bill be read a second time.

opposed the Motion. Thetford was a quiet town, much better adapted for the administration of justice than such a city as Norwich. He had heard nothing of complaints made by either the Judges or Barristers that Thetford was an improper place: but a conclusive argument against such a statement was to be found in the conduct of the Judges, who, having the power to order the removal, had not done so. There were notices on the paper for bills to remove other Assize towns, and he thought it would be better to bring forward some general measure, rather than to pass bills, Session after Session, for regulating the holding of the Assizes in every county of England. He thought no case had been Made out for the interference of Parliament, and that the matter should be left in the hands of the Lord Chancellor and the Judges.

supported the Motion. He did not question the motives of the Judges, but there were many causes which made those learned persons unwilling to interfere. The mere inspection of a map was sufficient to decide the question, but all doubts were removed by the fact, that in the centre of the county the population was most numerous, that Thetford was not only remote as to place, but was actually far re-Moved from the mass of the population. It was more fitting that the Assizes should be held in a town which contained 70,000 people, than in one which did not contain 5,000.

opposed the Motion because it was improper to apply to Parliament. The power of remedying the inconveniences complained of was placed in the hands of the Judges, and if they had thought the removal not warranted, that House had no ground for interfering.

supported the Motion. He knew that the Magistrates had petitioned for the change, and he knew, too, that the present place of holding the Assizes was productive of great inconvenience and great expense. The gentlemen of the county were the best judges of what was desirable, and they were almost to a man in favour of the change.

supported the Bill.

opposed it. He had heard no reason to justify so important a change.

knew that the Bill Was called for by the county at large, but as the Judges had the power of regulating the matter, it ought to be left to them.

recommended the House, before proceeding, to ascertain whether the Judges had the power of removing the Assizes.

thought the measure desirable, and it was not the less proper because his right hon. friend had brought it forward to please his constituents.

objected to the second reading, on the ground that the members for Liverpool were not present.

could not consent to postpone the Motion on account of the absence of the members for Liverpool.

rose to move the Second Reading of the Bill for removing the Assizes from Philipstown to Tullamore, in the King's County. The former town, is Lordship observed, was completely inconvenient, whether with regard to its position, for it was in the centre of the Bog of Allen, or as to its means of accommodation. The town was very small, and the Bar, Judges, and Jurors felt great inconvenience for the want of sufficient accommodation. A new Court-house had been recently, erected in Tullamore, at considerable expense; and, independently of the reasons he had already assigned, which in themselves were sufficiently powerful, he thought that this was an additional argument in favour of the proposed Bill, for it would be most desirable that the Court-house and gaol should be as close as possible to each other, as very great inconvenience attended the removal of prisoners from one town to another. He moved that the Bill be read a second time.

moved an Amendment, that the Bill be read that day six months, on the ground that the removal of the Assizes from Philipstown would be a severe injury to the inhabitants of that town.

supported the original Motion, and for the reasons which had been stated by the noble Lord who introduced the Motion. That noble personage, he added, could not be supposed to be influenced by any personal motive in this transaction, for he possessed property in the vicinity of both towns, and he could have no object or interest in favouring one beyond the other. He was satisfied that the noble Lord was influenced by the most pure and praiseworthy motives—namely, a wish to facilitate the administration of justice.

supported the Amendment. He conceived that sufficient grounds had not been stated for changing the Assizes. There was another class of persons besides the Bar and Grand Jury, whose interests should be consulted—namely, the farmers of the county; besides, the building of a new Court-house would entail a very heavy expense on the county, and these were not times in which such burthens could be borne. It would appear that the new jail had been built with the view of affording an argument for the removal of the Assizes.

supported the original Motion, because he was of opinion that any measure which might be calculated to facilitate the administration of justice, should not be rejected merely on account of the expense of a new Court-house. He thought sufficient had been stated to induce the House to support this Bill, and he should accordingly vote for the second reading.

also supported the Motion.

, from his geographical knowledge of the county, felt that the proposed measure would be a great benefit. Tullamore was eight miles distant from Philipstown, and it would be a monstrous inconvenience to bring persons such a distance for trial; besides, Philipstown did not afford sufficient accommodation. Individual interests should not be preferred to the public good.

rose, pursuant to the notice previously given to make a Motion relative to the county he had the honour to represent. It was not his intention at that hour to occupy the attention of the House at greater length than was indispensably necessary for the discharge of the duty he had undertaken. To such hon. Members in that House as were connected with Ireland it must have been matter of notoriety that the Queen's County, to which the Motion he was about to submit to that House referred, was in a state of frightful disturbance—disturbance which, he regretted to say, so far from diminishing, was considerably on the increase. He was aware that his Majesty's Government had taken steps to repress these scenes of insubordination, and that a Commission had been sent down for the purpose of bringing to justice the perpetrators of the outrages which had disgraced that county. He trusted that this measure would have the desired effect, and that it might be the means of restoring peace and tranquillity. He felt, however, that this case was of such a serious character that he should not discharge his duty to his country and his constituents, if he did not persevere in bringing it under the immediate notice of that House—and in taking this course he was only acting in obedience to the wish of a numerous and respectable portion of his constituents, who had called upon him to do so. The Motion which it was his intention to make on this subject was, for a Select Committee to inquire into the general efficiency of the law in repressing disturbances of the nature he had described. Before he called upon the House to accede to his proposition, he felt bound to state what measures had been adopted by the local authorities to check the progress of crime in the Queen's County. In the first place—a meeting of thirty-seven Magistrates was held at Philipstown, to inquire into the state of the county, to investigate the proximate causes of those outrages, and to devise the most effectual remedy to arrest them. After much deliberation, it was determined at this meeting to form an armed association, in whose ranks all classes of the people were to be enrolled. Circular letters were despatched to the most remote parts of the county, announcing this resolution, and subsequently a meeting of the Central Committee of Magistrates was held, at which it was resolved to communicate with Government. In pursuance of this resolution, a communication was accordingly opened with the Government, and a supply of arms was requested for the armed association, of which he had before spoken. This demand, it was necessary he should state, was refused by the Government, on the alleged ground that the parties to whom the arms were intended to be supplied were exclusively Protestants. When this application had been refused, several other measures had been resorted to by the Magistrates of the county, and it was in consequence of the failure of all these measures that the Magistrates were compelled to adopt the present course, and to bring before the notice of the House the state of the Queen's County, with the view to remedy such defects as might be found in the existing law. In the observations which he had felt it his duty to make, he did not mean to impute blame to his Majesty's Government; on the contrary, he was convinced that they were actuated by the most sincere and anxious desire to put down these disturbances, and to promote peace and social order in the country. Such were also his motives in bringing forward his present Motion. He could not anticipate any opposition to this proceeding, because he was satisfied that every Gentleman in that House felt as great an anxiety as he could possibly feel, in rescuing the county from the foul disgrace which these outrages had unfortunately entailed on it. With these preliminary remarks, he would now move, that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the general efficiency of, the law in Ireland for repressing outrages and disturbance.

seconded the Motion. In doing so he was influenced by the double motive of obeying the wishes of his constituents, and doing that which was also in accordance with his own feelings and conviction. The speech of the hon. Baronet who had brought forward the Motion, had thrown such light upon the state of things in the county which he had the honour to represent, that little remained for him to add upon the subject. One thing, at all events, must be apparent to the House, from the statement of his hon. friend, that to whatever cause these disturbances were attributed, they did not arise from any indisposition on the part of the Magistrates to perform their duty. Every measure which the law authorized them to adopt had been resorted to—an armed association, to consist of all classes indiscriminately, had been proposed, but this plan failed—not from any want of energy on the part of the constituted authorities, but in consequence of the system of intimidation which was spread throughout the county, and which prevented the peasantry, who resided in thatched cabins, through fear of personal violence, from joining in this confederation, the avowed object of which was the preservation of social order, and the repression of those disturbances which had disgraced the county. He, like his hon. friend, could not anticipate any possible objection to the Motion. The state of the Queen's County was such as every Member of that House must deplore, and he felt convinced that they would all lend their sanction to any measure that might be calculated to remedy this appalling state of things—a state of things which, he was grieved to say, in place of mending, was daily becoming worse. Murders had been lately committed in that county in the most public manner, and several stands of arms had, within the last few days, been seized by the people. These were matters of too serious a character to be permitted to go on. Some strong and decisive steps were necessary, or it was impossible to say where it might end.

did not rise for the purpost of casting any imputation on the Magistrates of the Queen's County, and in any observations which he had to offer to the House, he should cautiously abstain from saying anything which might by possibility imply a disposition on his part to attach blame to their conduct—neither did he rise for the purpose of resisting the Motion of the right hon. Baronet. He had no objection to the Committee for which the right hon. Baronet had applied, if it would be likely to effect the object which it was intended to promote—namely, to correct any deficiency in the existing law; at the same time, he felt bound to state, that he was determined to oppose any extraordinary or unconstitutional measures, if any such were sought for by the present Motion. He had no doubt but the Magistrates had taken prompt, and what they considered efficient measures, to repress the disturbances in the Queen's County; but, notwithstanding this, he was also of opinion, that the existing law was sufficiently strong to put down all outrages: that it possessed a vigour which, if properly understood and exercised, could not fail to check the progress of this evil. He, however, saw no objection to the proposed Committee. On the contrary, he conceived that the investigation which was sought might be productive of the most useful and salutary results. For example, Gentlemen connected with other parts of Ireland—Clare, Galway, Roscommon, and other places, where disturbance existed—would have an opportunity of comparing the effects of the working and operation of the law in these various places—the extent and nature of these disturbances—the causes from which such effects had been produced—and the remedies which had been found most effectual in repressing these disorders. Nay, further, if after a patient investigation of these matters, the Committee should be of opinion that the ordinary laws required to be strengthened, then such additional alterations or amendments might be made as this House should deem consistent with the spirit of the Constitution; but he, for one, believed, as he had before stated, that the existing laws were sufficiently strong, if enforced with vigilance and vigour, and because he entertained this conviction, he could not resort to extraordinary measures at any time without extreme reluctance—because if once the system of resorting to these extraordinary measures were adopted, the powers supplied by the ordinary laws, which were sufficiently ample in themselves, would fall into disuse, and upon every slight occasion the Government would be called upon to interfere in such a way, as nothing but the most urgent and pressing necessity—in fact, which nothing but the total failure of every remedy afforded by the ordinary laws—could possibly justify them in acceding to. He therefore thought, that it would be most unfair to impute blame to the Irish Government for the part they had acted in the case referred to by the right hon. Baronet. In refusing the application made by the Magistrates of the Queen's County, the Government had been influenced by the soundest and most impartial views. They naturally felt that it would be exceedingly unwise and improper to place arms in the hands of any particular class in the community, and that such a proceeding, so far from being calculated to restore peace and tranquillity, or to repress crime, would, on the contrary, tend, in no small degree, to augment the disturbances of the county. Acting upon this principle, and on those views, the Government of Ireland felt that they were bound to refuse the application, and he should much regret that these acts, which were dictated by the purest motives on the part of the Government, should be made the subject of misconstruction and misrepresentation. He begged, however, not to be understood as casting any reflection on the hon. Baronet for the manner in which he had alluded to that circumstance—so far from this, he felt that the right hon. Gentleman had introduced the subject with much taste and delicacy. For the reasons he had already stated, he would not oppose this Motion, at the same time that he retained his opinion that the law, as it stood at present, was sufficiently strong and effective; but, under all the circumstances, he was not disposed to deny, that considerable benefit might result from the labours of this Committee.

was of opinion that the object of the inquiry ought to be extended, and that it should be the duty of the Committee, not only to investigate the efficiency or non-efficiency of the law, but also to trace these disturbances to the fountainhead, and endeavour to ascertain the cause which produced effects so extraordinary and unnatural. He had but just returned from that part of the country which had been represented as in a state of disturbance, and, from experience derived from personal observation, he was enabled to state, that the laws were sufficiently strong as they at present stood, but why they failed in their efficiency he conceived was a subject of useful and interesting inquiry. He had received information about twelve months ago of the intention to form the armed association alluded to by the right hon. Baronet. Upon receiving the intelligence, he immediately went amongst his tenantry, and forty of them declared their willingness to bear arms for the preservation of the peace of the country, and to join this armed association. He immediately communicated this fact to the Magistrates, but from that day to the present he had never heard a word upon the subject. To prevail upon them now to join in such a plan would be a matter of impossibility, for he had within the last ten days made application to them, and they had to a man refused to bear arms, such was the state of intimi- dation which prevailed throughout the country. This state of things he thought was mainly attributable to the supineness of the magistracy, or at least to the injudicious system they had determined to adopt. In illustration of this, it was only necessary to remind the House of the fact he had already stated, that the services tendered by his tenantry had been rejected. Had the Magistrates, at the commencement of the disturbances accepted the assistance of the peaceable and well-disposed inhabitants of the country, the marauders would have been put down at once, and the peace of the country effectually secured. He did not rise for the purpose of opposing the appointment of the Committee; on the contrary, he thought that if the objects were extended, and the origin of this disturbance sifted to the bottom, much practical good would result from the labours of the Committee. He could not forget, that in 1825 or 1826 a similar inquiry took place before a Committee of that House, which had been productive of much good, and he entertained little doubt but that if this Committee were conducted with a similar spirit, it would be attended with equally beneficial results. It was monstrous to suppose that these outrages had resulted from any gratuitous love for mischief on the part of the people. There must be some pressing cause—some radical defect in the system, which required to be sifted to the bottom. It was on this account that he wished the inquiry of the Committee to be extended. If this humble suggestion were acceded to, he should support the Motion, but if it were not, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.

said, that he should trouble the House with very few observations. He resided in a neighbouring county to that in which these disturbances had taken place, and from his proximity to the scenes of the outrages, and his constant residence in the country, he had an opportunity of watching their progress, and tracing them to their source. He quite agreed in opinion with his hon. friend, the member for Wicklow, that if proper steps had been taken in the commencement, before the disturbance had arrived at its present pitch, it might easily have been put down; but also fully concurred with his hon. friend in thinking that the people were not influenced in their conduct by any gratuitous love for mischief, but that there must be some primary cause, some radical defect in the system, which required to be investigated and amended. For these reasons he was anxious that the inquiry of the Committee should embrace all those points, for he conceived that it would be useless to attempt prescribing a remedy until they first perfectly understood the nature of the disease. And to understand it properly it was necessary that all the symptoms should be carefully examined, and accurately traced through their most remote ramifications. He had no doubt but if the inquiry was conducted on this principle much good would result from it, and he was perfectly satisfied that his view of this question would be fully sustained, and that it would be found, that these disturbances were, in a great measure, to be attributed to the conduct of the landlords; that, in fact, it was a war of property on the one hand, and the resistance of poverty on the other. If the suggestion of his hon. friend were complied with, and the inquiry extended to the consideration of these matters, the Motion should have his support; but, if otherwise, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.

said, that he felt reluctant to differ from the right hon. Baronet, and the Secretary for Ireland, and the more so when several Gentlemen who represented counties which were contiguous to the Queen's County appeared desirous to support the Motion for a "Select Committee to inquire into the efficiency of the laws at present in force in Ireland." He admitted that it did not follow of necessity that there was to be a great change in the existing laws, because there was a Select Committee appointed to inquire into the efficiency of the laws at present in Ireland for the suppression of outrages against the public peace, but still he had been always apprehensive of seeing that done by the House which might lead to novel, and, perhaps, extraordinary proceedings. It was with him an invariable principle to enforce the old laws rigorously, rather than bring blame on the old laws to excuse the introduction of new laws possessing greater vigour and severity. He was not prepared for a very important Motion of this kind, and he was less prepared when it was brought on at one o'clock in the morning, and in a very thin House. He did not wish to interfere with the government of the country. He knew that, even in the county where the tithe disturbances commenced, there was a change for the better. He was mistaken if the Secretary for Ireland would not be disposed to admit, his official communications did not warrant the assertion that the state of the county of Kilkenny was not more tranquil than it had been ["hear, hear!"]. He presumed those cheers were for the purpose of denying the fact of any improvement. He thought the Gentlemen who entertained that opinion mistaken, as his information was, that, with the exception of the part of Kilkenny bordering on the Queen's County, the rest of it was very tranquil, compared with what it had been. Did Gentlemen forget, or were they entirely ignorant, that a special commission was, probably, at that moment, sitting in the Queen's County? Was not that county surrounded by a strong military force? Would it be denied that the same Government which sent special commissions into Limerick, Clare, and Galway, and tranquillized Clare, that was in a state little short of open insurrection, was not still responsible for the peace of Ireland? Would any man say, that Clare was not even a worse case than the Queen's County? Was there any Select Committee proposed, after the special commission to Clare, to inquire into the efficiency of the law at present in force in Ireland for the suppression of outrages against the public peace? He had no relish for Special Committees, at one in the morning for inquiring into the efficiency of the laws. He was afraid the Committee would be soon looking to the Insurrection Act, or some other strong coercive measures. He would be no party to Committees appointed in a moment of fever and exasperation. He would confide in the measures of Government which had been tried and had succeeded. It was painful to him to differ when so many appeared to agree. He did not think it was by more severe laws than those at present in existence, that disturbances were to be repressed. He looked for laws ameliorating the condition of the people, notoriously destitute and unemployed, as the only laws calculated to insure tranquillity and peace. He was happy to be in his place at that late hour to oppose the motion of the right hon. Baronet. He believed in his conscience that penal and severe laws only increased the mass of popular discontent, and if the remedial laws in progress for the improvement of the people did not tranquillize the country, he confessed he had very little expectation from any Special Committee for any such purpose as commencing an inquiry now into the efficiency of the laws at present in force for the suppression of outrages against the public peace. He was sorry to disturb what appeared to be the general sense of the House, but he expected from the desire he saw evinced by the Gentlemen on the other side for the Committee, that new laws were contemplated to be recommended, on the authority of the Committee, and he, therefore, entirely disapproved of the measure.

felt, that having already spoken on this question, he was not strictly regular in again addressing the House. He, however, begged their permission to make a few observations in reference to what had fallen from hon. Members who had lately spoken. The object of the motion of the right hon. Baronet was, to inquire into the efficiency or non-efficiency of the law; and it would extend to other districts than the Queen's County in which disturbance might exist. The right hon. Baronet had done him the honour of giving him intimation of his intention to bring forward the present Motion, and it was agreed between them, that the inquiry should be limited to the objects specified in the Motion. If they went beyond that, it would be attended with considerable inconvenience, and it would be impossible to define the duties of the Committee. With respect to what had fallen from the hon. member for Kilkenny, as to the efficacy of special commissions, he must observe, that it did not meet the motion of the right hon. Baronet. Special commissions, no doubt, had a most powerful influence in putting down disturbances, when they had arrived at an alarming extent; but measures of this description could not be brought to bear, until much mischief had been committed. For instance, a special commission could not be sent to any county until a number of prisoners had been taken; when this was the case, there was certainly less difficulty in procuring evidence, but the complaint of the right hon. Baronet was, that the powers afforded by the existing law were not strong enough to crush those disturbances in their bud, and before they had extended through the country. To this point the attention of the Committee ought to be confined; and he, for his own part, thought it would be productive of no public advantage, but, on the contrary, of much inconvenience, to extend the inquiry beyond this proposition.

considered the Irish Government to be highly blameable for their treatment of Captain Graham. He himself had been a Magistrate for twenty years, but in consequence of the scan- dalous treatment that gallant Officer had received, he felt that he should be dishonoured if he continued any longer in the Commission of the Peace; he also felt bound to say, after twenty years' experience as a Magistrate, that if he had been placed in the same situation as Captain Graham, he should have acted in a precisely similar manner. Now, with respect to the Queen's County, there was one fact which he thought it his duty to state to the House; two men had been capitally convicted for firing upon a Magistrate, a friend of his, and yet the Government, notwithstanding examples were necessary, from the disturbed state of the country, actually extended its clemency to these men, and commuted their sentence to transportation for life. Was this the way, he would ask, to quiet the country? For his own part, he felt convinced that, if strong measures were not resorted to, it would be impossible for any gentleman to live in the country.

was surprised at the remarks which had fallen from the gallant Colonel. He could not but deprecate such a line of conduct, upon a subject of such deep importance to the interests of the country. Violent observations were most unbecoming in discussing a question which required the most cool and dispassionate consideration. He implored of hon. Members to reflect upon the condition of the country, and he would ask them, if any possible good could result from indulging, at this period, in observations like those which had been made by the hon. Member who last addressed the House? He thought that much good would result from the intended Committee, and he, therefore, would support the motion of the right hon. Baronet.

said, he had that morning seen a letter from Mr. Greene, the stipendiary Magistrate, who had been lately appointed by the Lord Lieutenant for the county of Kilkenny. In that letter the county was described in a state of the most perfect tranquillity, but before he had concluded the letter, no less than seven murders were mentioned at the bottom of it. The inefficiency of the law in Ireland for repressing disturbances was notorious, and he, therefore, was determined to support the Motion.

complained of the tone in which the hon. member for Limerick had alluded to his hon. friend (Colonel Perceval). He thought that every Member in that House had a right to express his opin- ion upon the conduct of Government, and he must say, that he saw nothing in the observation of the hon. member for Sligo to warrant the lecture which the hon. member for Limerick had thought proper to read him. The hon. member for Kilkenny, he conceived, had been most infelicitous in his citation of that county as an example of proving the influence of the law in putting down these outrages. It was a well known fact, and admitted by the Irish government, that the law had been signally defeated in the county Kilkenny, and that his Majesty's Attorney General was actually obliged to postpone the prosecution of several persons, charged with the most atrocious crimes, from the system of intimidation which prevailed. He meant, certainly, to support the Motion.

opposed the Motion. It was the conduct of the gentry which occasioned disturbances in Ireland, and as long as they held their present language, and pursued their present course of proceedings, Committees and severe laws would not repress disturbances.

felt it necessary to oppose this Motion, from a conviction that its result and intention were, to obtain measures of increased severity against the people of Ireland. The wording of the Motion alarmed him, but after the violent speeches he had just heard from Gentlemen opposite, who supported this Motion, he was convinced that the Report of such a Committee would be to endeavour to obtain more coercive measures to goad the peasantry into rebellion. Had the Motion been what he first understood was intended, for a Committee to inquire into "the causes of the disturbances in the Queen's County," and other parts of Ireland, he should have voted for it, because he was convinced it would then appear that much of the disturbance could be traced to the oppressive conduct of the gentry and clergy—to the inactivity of Magistrates in some instances, the partial administration of the law in others, and unnecessary severity in more. He was firmly convinced, that the existing laws, if steadily and impartially administered, were quite sufficient to repress and punish outrage. It was not owing to a deficiency of severity in the laws in Ireland that the existence of outrage was to be attributed. It was to those persons solely who, by tyranny and oppression, sting their victims to madness, and by their partial and sectarian administration of severe and cruel enactments, drive them to despair; and then, instead of remedying those evils by retracing their steps, by acts of kindness or justice, they apply to Government for Insurrection Acts, and to Parliament for new powers to re-act the tyrant with impunity. He had acted for many years as a Magistrate; he had watched the causes which produced crime, and he had always seen the existing laws sufficient to repress it, and he could speak from experience, that those laws, when, executed with mercy, impartiality, and steadiness, never failed in preserving peace, and, when so executed, were always respected by the people. He was perfectly astonished at the unnecessary reference which had been made to the occurrence at Newtownbarry, by the hon. member for Sligo, and the praises he had bestowed on Captain Graham, and the yeomanry, for their conduct on that occasion, and the attempt to throw blame on the people of the county of Wexford. It was impossible that he could suffer such remarks to pass without noticing them, as he could never look on that individual and his associates but as murderers ["No, no"]. Yes, yes—he could never look on their acts in any other light, His countrymen were accused of crime—the county he belonged to was represented as the theatre of sedition—but he would say, that the only serious crime which had occurred for years; the only murders which had been committed, were those committed on twenty innocent persons, who had been so unnecessarily shot at Newtownbarry; for, he would ask, what other name than murder could any unprejudiced person give to the indiscriminate slaughter of so many unresisting and flying people, by yeomen pretending to force an illegal sale and distress of cattle, seized for tithes actually not due, and yet to the sale of which no opposition was offered? He must oppose the Motion, feeling that the present laws were sufficiently strong and efficient, and should, certainly, resist the formation of any Committee, the result of which was likely to have the smallest tendency to increase the severities of the laws in Ireland.

requested the right hon. Baronet to enlarge his Motion, so as to embrace an inquiry into the causes of disturbance in Ireland.

saw no advantage likely to result from it, and must, therefore, decline to accede to the request.

said, as the right hen. Baronet would not accede to the request of his hon. friend, he must, though unwilling to do so, divide the House on the Motion.