rose for the purpose of moving Resolutions relative to the expense of the Military Establishments of this country. The present Government had now been in office nearly two years, but the reduction which it was evident might be made in our military establishments had not yet been effected, in consequence of the attention of the Parliament having been absorbed by one most important question. That question was now, however, happily decided, and he trusted they should be able to turn their attention to the subject of reduction of our expenditure. He was happy to be able to offer his humble tribute of applause to the right hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, for the reductions he had effected in the navy. Similar reductions might be made in the army, but the reason perhaps, for which they were not made, was, that the frequent changes in the administration of the War Office rendered it almost impossible for each Secretary to have had time or opportunity to pay attention to the subject; and another reason was, that the army was not as much under the control of the Secretary at War, as the navy was under that of the First Lord of the Admiralty. The first of the Resolutions which he meant to propose might be regarded as a truism. It was this: "That the strength and security of the empire, and the prospect of internal tranquillity and good order, being now augmented in an unexampled degree by the law which provides for an efficient Representation of the people in Parliament, it is expedient, in the opinion of this House, that the smallest practicable delay should take place in relieving the country from all unnecessary burthens; and especially by carrying into effect every possible reduction in the heaviest branch of the national expenditure—that of the army." If the external and internal security of the empire had increased since the passing of the Reform Bill, there was an additional reason for the reductions, as they could be made with much greater safety than before. The second Resolution he should propose was of a more extensive character, and stated the items in which considerable reductions could be made without detriment to the service. This Resolution, which detailed the mode by which this diminution might be effected, was divided into twelve different heads, and he would trouble the House with a few observations on each. The Resolution was as follows: "That it appears to this House that great reductions may be effected in the following military establishments, without detriment to the efficiency of the public service, and that some of them may be altogether abolished; namely, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, Military Asylum, and Hibernian Military School, the Waggon Train, the Irish and English Yeomanry, the disembodied Militia of Great Britain and Ireland, Regimental Dépôt Reserves, District Recruiting Establishments, System of manufacturing Stores for the Ordnance, in respect to construction of Colonial Canals and Fortifications, in respect to charge for Military Protection of Ceylon and Mauritius, Foreign Half-pay Lists, Household Troops of Cavalry and Foot Guards, and by diminishing the number of Officers on the Establishment of Regiments." The first establishment he would advert to was Chelsea Hospital. So long as twenty years ago, a Board of Military Commissioners censured the appointment to offices in hospitals of men who had neither gained a title to those appointments by their sufferings nor their services. Some of these appointments were valuable, and there were among those appointed to such offices, valets, grooms, and others, whose only recommendation appeared to be the favour of their masters. The matter which was so long since the object of the censure of these Military Commissioners had not yet been corrected, and the system now continued as much as ever the subject of abuse. Some of these appointments were valuable, and many of them were of such a nature that they could be as well filled by the persons entitled to become inmates of the hospital, as those who hold the offices. Among them were agents, comptrollers, stewards, butlers, master cooks, ushers, bakers, butchers, and wardrobe keepers; all of whom had previously been valets, grooms, gamekeepers, coachmen, militia officers, editors of newspapers, and political adherents of certain noble Lords or right hon. Gentlemen. Not one of these appointments should be given to a man who had not seen military service; but among them were persons whose only recommendation had been, having been servants of persons connected with the Pay-office. He believed that the salaries of these persons amounted to nearly 3,000l. a-year. In addition, however, to these salaries, it must be recollected, that all those persons had apartments in the hospital. One person connected in this way with the hospital held a place with a salary of 278l. a-year; with a retiring salary from another office of 500l, The alteration which he trusted would now take place might save the public some money, but at all events it would have the effect of providing for worthy objects, instead of enriching those who had no claim to the public bounty. The next item of expenditure to which he wished to direct the attention of the House was that of the Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals. At these hospitals 787 pensioners were maintained at an expense of 35,000l. a-year, or 3s. 6d. a-day—a sum equal to three times the amount they received when on active service and in full efficiency. He was sure, that a great part of this expense might be saved if the men were allowed to live in their own villages, and in that case he believed that many of them would be content with a third of what they now received. By that course, too, the expense of forty or fifty clerks, whose charges amounted to between 5,000l. and 6,000l. a-year, might also be saved. In addition to these, which might be called the ordinary expenses of the establishments, he found the average number of sixty or seventy of these pensioners was to be found annually on the sick list, at an additional expense of 2,447l. a-year. A third item of expense connected with these places, was the salaries of the Governors. One of these gentlemen, he knew, was most fully entitled to all that he received from the country. He would take it for granted that the other was equally well-entitled; still he must say, that the reduction ought to take place with regard to him, for he held four or five other offices. The saving that might thus be effected would amount to about 10,000l. a-year. The next item was the establishment called the Military Asylum and Hibernian Military School, His objection to those establishments was chiefly on account of the expensiveness of the staff. Considering these as recruit- ing establishments, it would be found, that each recruit obtained from them cost the country 300l. by the first, and, by the latter, 530l. He was aware that they ought chiefly to be considered as charitable institutions, but the object to be obtained by them might be gained with infinitely less cost. From the very large staff at these places, it would appear that they were more like a job than anything else. He believed, that the object of that establishment might be just as well obtained by making an allowance to each of the corps of the army for the same number of children, and that thus the expense of the staff might be spared, and a sum of 13,000l. a-year saved, besides a building and grounds of the value of 150,000l. The next item was the Waggon Train, which, in his opinion, was a complete excrescence that might be fairly and advantageously got rid of. The Waggon Train, he believed, had been found of very little advantage during the war; since the peace, it had been of none whatever, though it had cost the country upwards of 200,000l. It was useless to refer to the example of France on this subject, for France might be called on to arm at a moment, and a powerful means of transport was of course required in that country. But with us it was different. Our ships were our means of transport, and, he believed, that for most of the purposes for which a four-horse waggon train was required, some of the carts recently invented by Mr. Cherry, attached to each corps, would be found sufficient. This cart had been approved of by military and naval officers, as well as scientific men. The Commander-in-chief lately presented such a cart to the county of Salop Infirmary, as they are particularly well adapted for the removal of sick persons. If this cart were adopted, no establishment would be necessary, and 5,000l. a-year would be saved, besides the expense of the Croydon barracks. He knew that the opinion of the right, hon. Gentleman below him was in favour of keeping up this branch of the service, but it appeared to him, that no case could be made out to justify it. The next item was the Irish Yeomanry, whose existence he considered more hostile, than favourable, to the continuance of peace in that country. He should recommend their total abolition. If that recommendation were adopted, a saving of 15,000l. a-year might be made to the country. Then came the English Yeomanry; with respect to them, he should recommend that no further allowance should be made to them by the Government than was made to the National Guards of France by their Government. There were 1,200,000 of those National Guards, who received no other emoluments than their arms and accoutrements. Surely the English Yeomanry were not inferior to them in patriotism. If this were done, there would be a saving of 65,000l. a-year. The Militia Staff was the next item of account, and that item he thought might be reduced at least one-half. A saving of 19,200l. a-year might be effected on the Militia, and a saving of 7,600l. on the Militia Staff, making together nearly 27,000l. a-year. Then there came the Reserves. There were fifty-one Reserves, at 2,000l. a-year for each. A considerable number of these might be reduced, and a great saving thus effected. The next item was the Recruiting Establishments. He should propose to abolish all these, except those of London and Dublin. These might remain as central establishments, and the recruiting might be carried on in the same manner as before the other establishments were formed. The central establishments should have the care, and the general superintendence of the recruiting department. The difficulty in doing what he now proposed was, as to the primary examination of the recruits. He thought, however, that that difficulty might be easily obviated, and a saving thus effected of 18,000l. a-year. The next item was the manufacture of stores, the making of canals and fortifications in the colonies and elsewhere, abroad. The Finance Committee had, more than once, reported against this head of expenditure, but he found that its opinions had been but little regarded. In the course of the last war no less than 15,000,000l. had been laid out in fortifications alone, and before most of these not an enemy had ever appeared. Canada, too, had had a large expense incurred for canals and fortifications. Between Canada and the United States there was a very weak line of defence. A sum of 2,000,000l. had been laid out on these fortifications, but there was yet a line of frontier of above 500 miles in length left utterly unprovided for. The fact was, that the only defence we could rely on in Canada was to be found in the attachment of its people. Its line of fortifications was the weakest in the world, and would not afford us the slightest defence. A sum of 45,000l. had lately been voted on this account for Canada. He understood that only about 6,000l. of that money had been expended, and the works were now suspended. If his recommendation had any effect, they would be altogether dropped, and the whole of the rest of the money would be saved. The saving, however, would be still greater; for it had already been intimated that a sum of 180,000l. would be wanted to complete the works now begun. Every farthing of that expenditure might be saved, and our security would be improved, if we looked to the affection and loyalty of the Canadians alone for our de-fence in that part of the world. The governments of Ceylon and the Mauritius might also be rendered less expensive, and the commerce of each would be materially benefited, if both were put under one government. The next item was the Foreign Half-pay, He knew that this was at present granted in virtue of an Act of Parliament; but he thought that that Act ought, at least with respect to a very considerable number of persons, to be repealed; for they were at this moment paid by the different governments of the different countries to which they belonged, as effective functionaries. It should be recollected, too, that, with a great number of them, the services for which they now received this half-pay were services rendered as much to their native countries as to England, although, at the time, the armies of those countries were paid by England. By their services, their own monarchs had been assisted in getting back to their thrones; and it was for those monarchs to recognise, and pay for, those services. If this item were reduced, there would be a saving of 100,000l. a-year. The next item was the Regiments of Guards. In this he included both Horse and Foot Guards. They cost 60,000l. a-year more than a similar number of the troops of the line; and he thought he was hardly proposing too much when he recommended that 10,000l. a-year of that excess should be saved. He believed, indeed, that Parliament might justly go much further than this, and say that, with respect to pay at least, they should be put on the same footing as the rest of the troops. If they received additional rank, which they now enjoyed, and were still exempted, as at pre-sent, from duty in the colonies, and were generally, as at present, kept in or near the metropolis, these advantages, together with the honour of being considered privileged troops, would surely be sufficient, without this great increase of expenditure. He might add his opinion, that in no way whatever, were these troops on the same footing with the rest, and that the right hon. Baronet had less control over them than over the rest of the army. He thought this should be remedied. The last subject to which he should refer was the reduction of the number of the officers of the army. In his opinion, the army was now unnecessarily crowded with officers, by which the expense of the army was very much increased. He had considered the subject, and he believed, that one Major would be enough for a battalion, in which, too, might be reduced one Captain and four subaltern officers. The present large number of superior officers was much connected, he was certain, with another subject that had lately occupied a good deal of attention—he meant that of corporal punishment. It was in consequence of that degrading species of punishment that they could not get respectable young men to enter as recruits; and that again prevented them from raising subaltern officers from the ranks, and afterwards promoting subalterns to be superior officers. Napoleon had remarked this among the four faults in our military system, and had assigned it a chief place in the list of those faults. He trusted, that Parliament would do what it could to remedy that fault, and then the alteration he had proposed could be more effectually carried into execution. In his opinion there might then be eight companies instead of ten to a battalion, and by the reduction of these, and of the seven officers he had already mentioned, a very large item would be saved in the public expenditure. The third Resolution which he intended to propose was, "That it appears to this House expedient that the forces at Malta, New South Wales, and Nova Scotia, and Bermuda, should be reduced to the same effective strength at which they were on the 25th of January, 1825." It appeared to him that it was quite unnecessary to keep up large garrisons in those colonies; and, at any rate, there could not be any reasons for keeping a larger force in them than there was previous to 1825, If this plan were adopted, 2,928 men might be reduced, which would relieve the country to the extent of 100,000l. a-year. Again; suppose one English battalion were substituted for the two West-India regiments, which would be far more effective, and would occasion a reduction of between 20,000l. and 30,000l. The West-India regiments were quartered at Barbadoes, the Bahamas, and Bermuda, and they performed, in point of fact, the duty of police. In his opinion, the police duties connected with the system of slavery ought to be executed by a militia of planters, and not by the soldiers of the regular service. Even in time of war it would not be necessary to keep up large garrisons in our colonies, for the chief defence of these islands and their best guards, were ships of war. In the case of Malta, in particular, it was nothing more or less than a shameful waste of money, to keep up such a large garrison there. The place was of such great strength, that a comparatively small force might easily defend it against a large army. When Napoleon took this island in his way to Egypt, it was garrisoned by a small Maltese battalion, and yet that distinguished general did not venture to attack it, although he had with him a large fleet, and an army of 20,000 men. He obtained possession of it by negotiation, and his chief engineer, Cafferelli, remarked, "It was well that we found some one within, to open the gates for us." The fourth Resolution was this—" That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that the forces at home be reduced to the same effective strength at which they were on the twenty-fifth of January, 1831." He was at a loss to conceive on what grounds his Majesty's Ministers could keep up a larger force than there was when they came into office. He trusted, that the Government would see the propriety of reducing the forces, by at least 9,000 men. The effective forces at home, in January, 1831, were 36,140, rank and file; in January, 1832,45,160; making a difference of 9,020 men. At present, the forces at home amounted to nearly 200,000 men; for instance, the regular array, including officers and non-commissioned officers, rank and file, were 51,571; artillery,4,589; marines on shore, 4,324; militia staff, 2,697; military police of Ireland, 7,367; coast-guard, 2,000; making 72,548. Again, the disembodied militia of Great Britain was 53,000; and, of Ireland, 19,000; volunteers of Great Britain, 20,399; yeomanry of Ireland, 31,422; making a total of 196,369. That was an available armed force of nearly 200,000 men, and, of which, 120,000 were actually embodied. Of these, he proposed to reduce only 9,000 regulars, and 31,000 Irish yeomanry, or to the state in which the army was in 1831. When the present Government came into office, the army in Ireland amounted to only 16,000 men; in the beginning of this year, it was increased to 20,000; and it was intended, he understood, to send thither a large additional force. This was most impolitic, as it was clear that an array would not tranquillize the people. If the army had remained on the same footing on which it was when the present Ministers came into office, the country would have saved nearly 400,000l. Besides these resolutions, he intended to move for some returns. He wished, in the first place, to have a return of the number of officers of each rank, belonging to the effective strength of the army, who were Members of the Commons House of Parliament; for the great number of regimental officers in the House on full pay was an additional proof that there were more officers in the army than were required. It was his intention to propose, next Session, that all officers, Members of the House, should be placed on half-pay. He also wished to have a return of the officers in command of all regiments abroad and at home, distinguishing the dates of their separate commissions, the periods of their foreign service; specifying colonial, or in the field, whether wounded, receiving any pension, or possessing any public testimonials of good conduct, in action or in the field; also specifying the ranks to which promoted by purchase. Undoubtedly there was a great number of regiments commanded by officers who had seen a great deal of service; but there were many regiments commanded by officers who had never been in active service. He was prepared to admit, that many of the latter were most efficient officers, and, if an opportunity were offered, they would, no doubt, distinguish themselves; but, certainly, a preference should always be given to those officers who had seen service. He had no desire to throw the slightest blame upon the officers, at the bead of the army. If he were to select two officers for the situations of Commander-in-chief and Adjutant Secretary, he could not select two more worthy than Lord Hill and Lord Fitzroy Somerset. He had no doubt, officered as the army at present was, that it might be in a high state of discipline, but it was enormously expensive, and it was the duty of the House to see whether or not these expenses could be reduced. Whatever, too, might be the effect of the plan, at present, the result of conferring promotion for any thing but merit and service, would be to damp exertion and turn the attention of officers to the indirect means of promotion. Their energies would be engaged to obtain influence not to learn their military duties, and we should be reduced to the same state as Sir Robert Walpole found the army in his time. This Minister, having been pressed to declare war, called for an army list; and having looked over the names of the general officers, remarked that he did not know what effect those gentlemen might have on the enemy; but they entirely frightened him. It was true, that many of the continental states kept up armies beyond their pecuniary means; but the way in which they accomplished that was, by observing the strictest economy in details. In considering this Motion, he had turned over in his mind such arguments as might be adduced against it. As to a foreign war, he thought that there was not the least ground for apprehending any such thing; and if one should arise, contrary to all human probability, it would most likely be a maritime war, in which our army could be of no service. If it was to preserve peace at home that it was supposed to be necessary to keep on foot the present large force, then Ireland alone must be the cause of the Government's incurring so great an expense. He hoped that would not prove to be the case; and he trusted that the House and the Administration were, before this, convinced that it was impossible to govern Ireland by the cannon and the bayonet. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving the series of Resolutions which he had read to the House.

observed upon the thinness of the House (about fifteen Members were present), and was of opinion that the dog-days hardly formed a fit season for going through the Army Estimates; but the gallant Colonel had not only gone through them with resolution, but he had embraced the Ordnance Estimates, the Colonial Department, and topics, upon even one-fifth part of which he despaired of being able to enter in the course of one night's debate. He could not imagine that the saving to be effected would be so great as had been represented by the hon. and gallant Officer. In reference to the system of recruiting, he must observe, that it had formerly been considered as good; such, also, was the case with regard to the system of dépôt reserves. Touching the Ordnance Stores, &c., he must in fairness say, that that involved so many topics, and was a subject of such vast extent, that it could only be taken into consideration in the shape of a night's debate. The hon. and gallant Officer, too, had spoken with reference to our military establishments at Ceylon and the Mauritius, and had asked, why the East-India Company did not pay the expenses. But, even supposing that the East-India Company were to pay for those establishments in Ceylon, for instance, did his hon. and gallant friend suppose that they, in return, would not make the merchants and traders repay them in some shape or other? Then, as to the half-pay allowed to persons in foreign service, he was not aware that, except in Hanover, any person received half-pay while performing military duty elsewhere. At the same time he believed, that some improvement might be made under this head. All that could be done at the War Office was then doing at the War Office to promote the commutation of half-pay. With regard to the expense of the household troops, as compared with those of the line, his hon. friend appeared to have fallen into some error, for the difference of expense between them was very trifling. An objection had been raised as to the force kept up in some of our colonies. True it was, as had been stated, that at Malta there were now more troops than formerly, but at the Cape of Good Hope the number had been materially diminished. So in Bermuda and other colonies the case was the same. This, however, was a matter for the Government to settle, and so was that of the reduction of the staff; though in the latter case, he must observe that if the increase was justified in 1831, no circumstances had occurred to warrant an alteration in the system. Again, it had been urged, that our military force in Ireland was too large. Now, he must declare that he was at a loss to discover what was the difference of the situation of Ireland from that in which it was placed in the year 1831 which could possibly justify the Government in diminishing our military establishment there, He would not object to the first and third Resolutions, but looking to that which called for the date of the commissions granted to officers, whether they had received any public testimonial of good conduct, &c., stating the ranks to which they purchased, and the length of their service, he saw great difficulty in acceding to it; for in 1826, a similar return had been moved for, and the answer they obtained was, that it was impossible to get at the length of service. Then, as regarded the officers of the army, and the complaint made by the hon. and gallant Member, he begged to state that he had been informed that, were we to go to war to-morrow, a better disciplined, or a better officered, army never could be brought into the field; such was their present condition. True it was, that in some instances officers of distinguished merit did not receive that promotion to which they were entitled, because, in the great struggle for promotion, some must go behind. But, upon the whole, he believed the system worked as fairly and as well as any could which should secure first-rate talent. On the other hand, many cases did occur in which officers of merit, without any great interest, rose in the army to the highest ranks; and, as an instance of this, he would quote the hon. and gallant Member himself, whose merits and services were known and justly appreciated. He held in his hand the date of that hon. Member's commissions, by which it appeared that he had risen from the rank of Lieutenant to Lieutenant-Colonel in the space of five months, in the midst of great services; and he had been in the army eight years and three months. The right hon. Baronet concluded by saying that, looking to all the circumstances of the case, he thought it best to move the previous question; but, in doing so, he must protest against its being considered that his Majesty's Government were not disposed to effect every possible reduction.

could not agree with his gallant friend, in the praises which he had bestowed on Lord Hill and Lord Fitzroy Somerset; and he begged to ask his gallant friend, how the sounding the merits of these noble Lords agreed with what he had himself stated as to no old officer having been appointed to command any of the corps? In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, that fact alone cast a most severe censure on the Commander-in-chief. Indeed, looking at the subject in a general point of view, he considered that the manner in which military patronage was exercised was highly detrimental to the service. It might be a mode very agreeable to those who were enabled by it to obtain rapid promotion, owing to their political connexions; but this undeniably was a narrow advantage, purchased at the expense of all the other officers who were not so fortunate in their influence. One of the points which his gallant friend had failed to notice, was the exceedingly heavy Staffs kept up at head-quarters—a thing utterly useless in itself, and one which formed one of the most extravagant items in the whole expenditure of the army. But the great complaint, in his opinion, was, that they had too long been acting upon the old military system. What he wanted to see was, the whole military expenditure of the country put under the control of the Se-cretary-at-War, and the Commander-in-chief only acting as the executive authority for carrying the details into effect. Unfortunately, however, the Commander-in-chief had engrossed all the power; and he believed that the Secretary-at-War was not able to do a single thing without consulting him. This he took for granted, from the whole tenour of his right hon. friend's speech, which seemed to imply that Lord Hill was his master, and that he only came down to the House of Commons to state what that noble Lord was willing to comply with. By a document which was yesterday laid on the Table of the House, it appeared that the expenditure of the country amounted to upwards of 1,200,000l. above the income, so that now, in the eighteenth year of peace, like other spendthrifts, we were exceeding our receipts by that enormous amount. The annual expense of the Army was 7,500,000l.; the annual expense of the Ordnance was 1,500,000l.; which, together, made a total of 9,000,000l. in outlay for the support of our standing army. He wished that his gallant friend had pointed this out, for then he would have been the better entitled to ask, whether it was consistent that such an expenditure should be allowed to continue? If the Ministers had only just entered office, there might be some apology for no diminution having taken place; but this was now their second year of office, and instead of a diminution, there had been somewhat of an increase in the expenses of the military establishment of the coun- try. With respect to Chelsea Hospital, he thought that a great saving might be effected in that establishment. With regard to the Military Asylum and the Hibernian School, he had no hesitation in saying, that both these institutions ought to be put down. It might be thought harsh not to receive soldiers children, and perhaps it might be so; but, at all events, if they were to be received, it ought to be in a very different manner. The proper persons to take care of children were nurses and schoolmasters, and not General Officers and a complete Staff, as it were, as if these children formed an array of themselves; in addition to which, he thought that something less than a palace was sufficient for the residence of these children, though he really believed that the King himself had not such a splendid dwelling as that which they occupied. This subject had been very fully discussed in a previous Session, and if his advice had been taken, instead of keeping up distinct establishments at Southampton, Chelsea, and Dublin, he would have them all consolidated at one place, and so get rid of the triple corps of officers, who were altogether useless, and had nothing to do with the charity, which was the real object of these establishments. With respect to his gallant friend's proposition concerning these children, he trusted that it would not be adopted. His gallant friend's plan seemed to be, that a sum of money should be allowed to the regiments and the children kept with those regiments; but in the event of their having to take the field, he imagined that it would be found that these children would prove a very great encumbrance, and, in fact, form a complete clog to the motions of the men. There were other parts of the Motion of his gallant friend which he deemed well worthy of attention; and with respect to the question of Ireland, which had been touched upon, he would just observe, that the real way of governing Ireland was not by sending an army of 35,000 men into that country to overrun it, but by giving the people just and equitable laws, by means of which the Government would find itself enabled in a very short time to reduce the army there to 8,000, which was the number at the commencement of the French war, or even still lower. It was in vain for the Government to talk of the expense of maintaining a force for the service of Ireland of the great amount now stationed in that country. Let Ireland be equitably ruled, and the necessity for keeping a large military force there would disappear. He fully concurred with his hon. friend in thinking that the present mode in which the army was managed must have the effect of deteriorating its moral character. There was no man of good moral character who would not hesitate a long time before he engaged in a service in which by possibility it might be his lot to be subjected to corporal punishment. For all these reasons the Motion of his hon. and gallant friend should have his most cordial support; for he thought, that with a deficient revenue, and so large a military establishment, the House was called upon to offer an opinion upon the propriety of effecting a considerable reduction.

was sure that the hon. and gallant Member who introduced this subject, as well as his hon. friend who last addressed the House, had no expectation that any of the reductions they proposed could be carried into effect in the present Session. He must say, that his right hon. friend (Sir John Hobhouse) was not well treated by his hon. friend who last addressed the House. His hon. friend had gone into a variety of details, in some of which he might be right, and in some wrong, but because his right hon. friend near him was not prepared at that moment to enter into those details or to adopt them, his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, held him up as being opposed to all economical Reform. This surely was not acting fairly. His hon. friend, and the hon. and gallant Officer, talked of the army in England being 65,000 men. He did not know where they obtained that amount, but the Returns before the House did not make them more than 26,000, and even taking the Marines and the Militia, which were not all embodied, they would not amount to the number the two hon. Members had stated. Every one who considered the circumstances of the country would admit the necessity of a large military force being kept up in the United Kingdom. Whatever was the cause of the discontent in Ireland, into which he would not enter, the necessity of maintaining a large military establishment in that country must be admitted. Objections had been made some time ago to the employment of the Yeomanry in that country instead of the regular troops. He was dis- posed to concur in those objections, but now, when the number of the regular force was increased, a complaint was made of the increase. He would agree with his hon. friend, that the best way would be, if possible, to remove the cause of discontent in Ireland; but while it was in its present state, the presence of a large military force was the only way to protect the public, and to guard against violence. He meant not to follow the gallant Officer through all his details, which, in his opinion, had been satisfactorily answered by his right hon. friend. It would be useless to proceed with a discussion on these various topics, unless the House had the necessary information before it. He conceived that it was not quite fair to Ministers when the gallant Officer came forward with a series of subjects, involving different matters of charge, to which it was impossible fully to reply, unless a variety of details were entered into, for which the House was not prepared. In fact, the Motion, as it had been brought forward, involved questions that related to every department of the Government, It was said, that individuals connected with different branches of the Government ought to have been present to answer the charges which had been made. But, from the very general terms of the Motion, such was its vagueness and want of precision, that it did appear to him that no blame could fairly be attached to his colleagues, if they were led to believe, as they had been, that they would not be called on for their defence. The gallant Officer had particularly alluded to the subject of unattached commissions; but, with respect to them, his right hon. friend had followed the course pursued by the right hon. member for the Queen's County, and other hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him in office. With respect to the amount of forces in England, he did not think that any Gentleman, looking to the present state of the country, could wish to see that amount greatly reduced. He hoped and trusted, however, that hereafter Ministers would be enabled to reduce the numbers of the army. He was satisfied that they would speedily arrive at a state of harmony and content, when they might with perfect safety reduce their military force; but he did not think that it would be prudent at that moment to reduce the existing means of security. He cordially agreed in the proposition that it was the duty of Government to reduce the ex- penditure in every department; and the present Ministers were determined to do so to the utmost of their power. The circumstances in which they were placed when they first came into office, rendered it necessary for them to add something to the military force. They could not possibly avoid it. The hon. member for Middlesex had said, why not trust to the people of England, instead of keeping up a great military establishment? Did the hon. Member recollect the situation in which the country was placed when the Ministers came into office? At that time the burning of barns, and the destruction of property, were general throughout the country. As to the subject of Canada, he would not then enter into it. He very well knew, that if the people of Canada wished to shake off their connexion with this country, it could not be prevented. But, if the inhabitants of Canada were anxious to continue the connexion, then it was only right that we should give them the means of defending themselves. He believed that much unnecessary expense had been incurred with respect to Canada, but he conceived that it would be bad policy now not to complete that which had been so far carried towards completion. In laying before the House to-morrow the Estimates for the current year, he thought he should be able to show, that the finances of the country were not in so bad a state as many gentlemen seemed to suppose. Ministers were most anxious to effect a reduction of expenditure; and he could assure the House that many of the establishments which had been that night introduced, had already been looked into by them. Although they found it necessary to move the previous question on this occasion, still he could safely assert, that they were anxiously investigating every point connected with the expenditure of the country, and that expenditure they were determined to reduce so far as it could be done with advantage to the general interest of the empire.

said, when he saw the notice of Motion given by the hon. and gallant officer, his curiosity was a little excited, and he attended in his place, expecting to hear some useful information communicated, or some valuable details brought forward, from which a practical conclusion might be drawn. But since he had the honour of a seat in that House, he never was present at any discussion less likely to lead to a useful result. The hon. and gallant officer had embraced in his Motion such a vast variety of topics, each in itself highly important, that it was impossible any practical benefit could result from it. There was no department of Government which the range of his Motion did not take in, so that the presence of almost every member of the Cabinet would be necessary to discuss it properly. Not content with this, the member for Middlesex introduced, besides, the Church of Ireland. With respect to the total amount of force, he should not enter into that question. It was a point for the consideration of Government only, for they alone could have the means of judging, from internal and external circumstances, what was the amount of force necessary. He agreed it was unfortunate to be under the necessity of keeping up a large military establishment, as the gallant officer and the member for Middlesex said, to coerce the people. He would be as ready as any person to reduce the army when he saw that it could be done with safety to the country. The hon. and gallant Officer alluded to the National Guards of France, who, he said, received nothing from Government but their accoutrements, and asked why the Yeomanry of England should not, when required, serve their country upon the same terms. Was the gallant Officer aware what the charge of accoutrements for 1,200,000 National Guards was? He would find that it far, very far exceeded the Yeomanry charge here; and, besides the National Guards, it should be recollected that France had a regular force of between 400,000 and 500,000 men. The opinion expressed by Napoleon of the British army was referred to. He should not have been surprised to have heard this from the member for Middlesex, but he must confess that he felt some surprise at hearing it from a British officer, who he must suppose was acquainted with the subject. The first objection made by Napoleon to the constitution of the British army was, that it was recruited by money. Would the gallant officer introduce into this country the principle of conscription by which the French ranks were filled, a principle which produced civil war in every department of France, and filled the forests of that country with persons who took refuge there to avoid being forced to serve in the army? The second objection of Napoleon was, that we filled our ranks by emptying the gaols of the country. Now, in the first place, this was not the fact, and, even admitting that it was so, a British officer ought to be disposed rather to veil than to publish it. But it was not the truth, because the British army was recruited from the Militia, who made most excellent soldiers, and were men of good character. Napoleon's third observation was, that we had no good noncommissioned officers. There were not in the world better or more efficient noncommissioned officers than those of the British army, and of this the hon. and gallant Officer must be convinced from his own experience. The member for Middlesex and the gallant Officer complained that there was not sufficient encouragement in the way of promotion from the ranks. He must deny that, in time of war, there was any ground for complaint upon this head. In his regiment, at the beginning of the war, not less than forty persons from the ranks obtained commissions in the space of four or five years. These were things which of course could not occur every day, nor frequently, in time of peace, but when war broke out, they were by no means uncommon. The fact was. Napoleon had not any practical knowledge of a British army until a recent period, and till then he had been in the habit of publishing to Europe his abuse and contemptuous opinion of it. He had met in the field all the other armies of Europe, but he knew nothing of a British army till he met it at Waterloo, and then he learned what was the valour and discipline of British troops, and what the talents of a British general. It was objected that our array had too many officers. It should be recollected that there was no army so much broken up into small detachments as the array of this country. Circumstances required that small detachments should be sent on a variety of service. It was necessary that these detachments should have each an officer; otherwise it was not to be expected that the duty, which was frequently of great importance, could be performed in a satisfactory way, and the necessary discipline maintained. He was glad to hear so just and well merited a tribute of praise bestowed by the hon. and gallant officer upon the present Commander-in-chief. No man was better entitled to it than Lord Hill, whether from his services or his private character. It was impossible that any man could discharge the important duties intrusted to him with more diligence or more impartiality. He was sorry the member for Hertford was not present, for he could inform the House how the affairs of the army were managed when Lord Amherst was Commander-in-chief, and what jobs were then going forward. Before the commencement of the late war it was quite impossible the British army could be an effective one. There was then no Commander-in-chief, and the consequence was, that, when sent upon service, at the opening of the war, it was in a most inefficient state. Each company consisted of only thirty-five men, and there were no artillery drivers. The gallant Officer was for doing away with the corps of artillery drivers during peace, for, said he, in time of war there would be no difficulty in procuring drivers. It was true they might get drivers, but, unless they were regularly trained and previously disciplined, the first thing they would do on going into action would be, to run away and take the horses with them. If it should become necessary in Ireland to call a force into the field, it would be found very inconvenient to be without a waggon train. In reference to Chelsea and Kilmainham, the gallant Officer said these establishments might be dispensed with, and a considerable saving effected; that the pensioners would prefer being at liberty and living with their friends, at an allowance of a shilling a day, not a third of what these establishments cost the public. It was true some might prefer living with their friends, but it should be recollected there were many who had no friends, who returned home maimed or disabled after long service in a foreign climate, forgotten by friends, or who perhaps had none living. It would be unbecoming the dignity and humanity of this great country to have no establishment in which persons thus situated could find shelter. The hon. and gallant Officer recommended that the Kilmainham establishment might be merged in that of Chelsea. It should be recollected, however, that a large proportion of their army was Irish, who would naturally wish to retire to their native country, and find an asylum where they would have an opportunity of seeing their friends and relations. The Hibernian Military School, which it was proposed to suppress, originated in private benevolence. It was at first supported by private subscription, contributed by persons who saw and pitied the destitute situation in which the children of soldiers were sometimes left when a regiment was called upon foreign service. It was of course desirable to have as few children as possible with an army, but there must be some, and when the father was killed in battle, or died in the service, surely it would be most unjust and inhuman to leave the orphans without any protection whatever. He therefore contended that the Asylum ought to be maintained. Then the hon. member for Middlesex had charged the Secretary at War, with being a mere servant to the Commander-in-chief. That was a most unjust charge. He was satisfied that the office of Secretary at War was so constituted that it gave the person holding it an efficient and real control over the expenditure of the army. The present Secretary for Foreign Affairs had been Secretary at War for twenty years, and he was sorry that noble Lord was not in his place to answer the charge of the hon. Member. As to our foreign garrisons, the necessity of maintaining them was too apparent to need any advocacy from him, and he could not at all agree with the gallant officer (Colonel Evans) in thinking that even a strong position like Malta required no garrison. He even considered the instance quoted as a most unfortunate one. A fort was given up to the enemy because it was not garrisoned, said the hon. and gallant Member; then surely that was a reason why the forts should be garrisoned. He had troubled the House in consequence of the remarks made respecting the British army, and he had to apologize for the intrusion. A great reduction in the army had been called for in consequence of the passing of the Reform Bill. He should be glad to find that that measure effected any benefit that could be fairly expected from it, but he certainly could not hope that the country would be preserved without an army. He did not profess to have so much confidence in his Majesty's Ministers as the hon. member for Middlesex had, but still he believed they would make all practicable reductions.

said, he was ready to support the different reductions which the hon. and gallant Officer proposed. Some of them, he must observe, did not go so far as he himself intended to push them. He admitted the great merit of several Commanders-in-chief; but, in his opinion, they had too much control over the financial department of the army, and from that control, he conceived, the Secretary at War ought to be relieved. Notwithstanding what had been said as to the variety of topics that had been introduced in the course of this discussion, he thought that the country was greatly indebted to the hon. and gallant Officer for bringing forward this Motion.

said, it was evident to him that this Motion was introduced for the purpose of going over the Army Estimates for the fourth time. They had already been debated twice in Committee, and twice on bringing up the Report. During the three first speeches on this occasion, the House might, at any moment, have been counted out, which proved that the discussion had not attracted a great deal of attention. Out of 658 Members, not 40 were present for a considerable portion of the evening. The hon. member for Middlesex had made one of the most unfounded attacks he had ever heard on the Commander-in-chief, when he asserted that the noble lord had disposed of commissions for party purposes. It would have been well if the hon Member had "tabled" his facts before he ventured on such an assertion.

said, he wished to observe, in answer to the statement of the hon. Member for Middlesex, who had asserted that few of the commanders of regiments had ever seen service, that he had looked over the army list, and, out of the colonels of ninety-seven regiments, he found no fewer than forty-seven who were decorated with the Cross of the Bath, or some other similar honour, and who, therefore, it was evident, must have been in active service. At the same time, it must be evident, that, after seventeen years' peace, there must be a great number of officers who had not attained any high rank at the close of the war, as well as some who had not then entered the service.

was of opinion, that; in the present state of the country, great reductions must be effected, in the event of a war, we must depend on our navy. Our debt would not allow us to send an army of 50,000 or 60,000 men to the Continent. It would never again be our policy to appear as a great military power in Europe. He thought that the Militia might safely be dispensed with. Their services were never available on any great emergency, such as the riots at Bristol. He was of opinion that the recruiting departments might be placed upon a better footing. In many other points, reductions could safely be effected. In some of the colonies he had seen sentinels placed over guns, each of which would have required twenty men to move it. In other places sentinels were placed to guard fortresses where half a dozen of the bastions were in ruins, to prevent people from scratching their names on the walls.

expressed a hope that the Hibernian Schools would not be abolished. A right hon. and gallant Member had said, that he could not perceive the connexion which exisisted between the present question and the Church Establishment of Ireland. He thought it must be evident to any man who considered the subject, that we were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland, in consequence of the state of public feeling arising out of the Church Establishment of that country. We had now in Ireland an army of 30,000 men, a Yeomanry force of the same amount, and 5,000 or 6,000 police. Thus the Church Establishment of Ireland, besides possessing immense revenues of its own, cost this country a large sum of money for its maintenance. Let the people of England bear this fact in mind. The Government themselves admitted that they were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland in order to protect the Church Establishment. The argument used in favour of Catholic Emancipation was, that the settlement of the question would enable the Government to withdraw the army from Ireland. Those who used this argument thought that Emancipation was all that Ireland required; but the Catholics always said, that much was wanting besides Emancipation, However, let the people of England be aware, that soldiers were necessary to support priests, and that a great sacerdotal establishment must be maintained by a large military one, and that the people paid for all. The crosier must be sustained by the bayonet, and in order to keep twenty-four mitres, many thousand casques and helmets must be paid for!

said, that he was one of those who employed the argument, that the settlement of the Catholic question would enable the Government to reduce the military force in Ireland, and he was very sorry to say, that he had been mistaken.

, in reply, said that he differed from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, for he thought it was his duty to remove the veil from our military defects, not draw it more closely over them. He had done his duty in making the Motion; that it was not likely to be successful he regretted. He had brought it forward then because, owing to peculiar circumstances, the Array Estimates had not been sufficiently discussed.

rose to move for certain Returns, with a view of showing how far the panic of 1826 was attributable to the system adopted by the Governor and Company of the Bank of England. He was of opinion, as the period when the Legislature were about to decide upon the Renewal of the Charter to the Bank was drawing nigh, that it was of the utmost importance to ascertain, by an examination of every circumstance which might in the remotest degree have reference to the system of banking, how far the parties seeking for the renewal were entitled to the confidence of the country. On the occurrence of the panic in 1825, the House might recollect, a great diversity of opinion as to the extent to which that unfortunate event was attributable to the Bank of England prevailed. It was stated at the time, by the Governor of that body, with a view to its exculpation, that in neither the years 1825 nor 1826 had there been any considerable increase or decrease in the amount of the currency sent into circulation, and that all the fault of the transaction was attributable to other causes, and principally to the country banks. In both Houses of Parliament the statement of the Governor was repeated by the supporters of the Bank, and was looked upon as affording for its conduct a complete justification. There were others, however, who did not hesitate to assert that the mismanagement of the Directors of the Bank of England was the main cause of that panic. On reference to the debates of that period, that opinion was expressed by Members who were always considered to be great authorities upon the subject, from their immediate connexion with commerce. Without troubling: the House with a full list of those who supported that opinion, he would merely mention the hon. member for Thetford (Mr. Baring), Mr. Tierney, Lord Liverpool, and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, now Lord Goderich. It was with a view of ascertaining the real state of the case that he proposed to move for such information, which, if produced, could not fail to have that effect. He thought it was of paramount importance clearly to understand what part the Bank had taken in the affair, for, according to that, the opinion of the Legislature ought to be guided as to the degree of trust which could fairly be reposed in the body. It was probable that it would be argued against his Motion, that Parliament ought not to pry into private concerns, but he denied that, at the present period, anything relating to the Bank ought to be private. The country was called upon to make a very serious and a very important decision as to the renewal of the Charter; and until that decision was made, the affairs of the Bank ought to be considered, in every sense of the word, public. It was also probable, his Motion might be met by a reference to the labours of the Secret Committee then sitting upon the subject of the Bank, but, as a very short period would elapse previous to the necessary decision of the question, he conceived the public mind ought to be enabled, by the possession of every information, to approach it with that degree of consideration which its importance so well merited. No person could say, that the Bank was not intimately connected with the interests of the country. Upon this point he would read some extracts, which expressed his opinions more powerfully than he could convey them to the House by his own words. On the 2nd of February, 1826, the present Lord Chancellor (then Mr. Brougham) expressed himself to the following effect: 'Much had been said upon the proceedings of the Bank of England during the late panic. Without wishing to throw blame upon the conduct of that body, he could not help expressing his conviction, that an end must come to that sys tem which exerted so powerful an influence at present, not only upon the money market, but on the whole trade of the country. Some change ought to be effected, by which the interests of the whole empire, together with the fortunes of every family in it, should be drawn from the absolute control and direction of four and twenty men.'^* The late Lord Liverpool also said: 'He did not mean to join in the reflection which the noble Baron had cast upon the Bank of England; but he was perfectly satisfied—and he had entertained the conviction for years—that the country had grown too large, that its concerns had become too extensive, to allow of the exclusive privilege of the Bank of England. The privilege of the Bank might have been highly useful in the early period of our commercial transactions; but the country was now too large for any one such exclusive establishment. The Bank of England's privilege operated in a most extraordinary, and, he thought, a most unfortunate manner for the country.' † Lord Goderich, then a Member of the House of Commons, expressed similar opinions††. From these extracts, and from many other passages which he could read, it was quite evident that the late Government had come to the determination not to make any application for the renewal of the present exclusive privileges of the Bank when they should expire. An impression had gone abroad that the present Government intended to propose the renewal of these privileges, but it would require very strong grounds indeed, to satisfy the people of England of the propriety of continuing the monopoly described by the late Lord Liverpool. He must again urge the reasonableness of laying before the House all the information that could possibly be given, while the inquiry was going on before the Committee, because it would necessarily sit but a very short time longer, and this was not a subject upon which a hasty and undigested opinion should be formed. If it could be shown that danger would result from the production of the information which he sought, he should be the last man to require it, but if not, the House ought to be put in possession of it. A strong feeling of the great importance of this subject had alone influenced him to press for the production of information. The hon. Member concluded by moving "That there be laid before this House an account of the amount of the promissory-notes, and bank-post bills, of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, in circulation on the 1st day in each month, during the years

^* Hansard (new series) vol. xiv., p. 39,

† Ibid. p. 19. †† Ibid. p. 51.

1824, 1825, and 1826;—of balances and deposits upon accounts; distinguishing those of the Government from those of private individuals, at the same period; of bullion, and gold and silver coin, of whatever description, held by the Bank of England; distinguishing the quality of the same, being the property of the Bank of England, and not belonging to other individuals, at the same periods;—of sums advanced to the Government by way of loan, or otherwise; setting forth the description of security held for the same, at the same periods;—of the amount of Government securities held by the Bank during the same period, and not included in the aforementioned Return, setting forth the description of the same;—of sums which the Bank of England were under advance by way of mortgage or security on land or other real property, or by way of any other description of loan, on the security of real property at the same periods;—of sums which the Bank of England were under advance to individuals on the security of funded property, Exchequer bills, or Indian bonds, at the same periods; and, of the amount of bills of exchange held by the Bank of England under discount at the same periods."

said, that his hon. friend (Mr. Easthope) had himself, in the beginning of his speech, anticipated an objection to his Motion, for which, in the course of his arguments he had not been able to suggest an answer. That objection was, that as there was at present a Secret Committee engaged in inquiring into the affairs of the Bank, and the whole question of the Renewal of the Charter, it would be most inconvenient to produce the papers which the hon. Gentleman asked for. But he was ready to admit, that if the Committee should eventually make a Report, without laying before the House all the information upon which they should have founded their decision, then those Returns might very properly be called for. He thought that his hon. friend was rather impatient for the production of those papers, as he must be aware, that the present Session could not close without some Report being made by the Committee. The hon. Gentleman had said, that the public ought to have time to weigh the reasons upon which any recommendation of the Committee might be founded, before the House should come to any definite measure upon that recommendation. Now, he (Lord Althorp) could not admit that the hon. Gentleman had a right to assume that it was not the intention of the Government to give the public ample time to consider the grounds of any resolution to which the Committee might come, before any steps should be taken in consequence of the Report. His hon. friend must be aware that it was the duty of the Committee to lock back earlier than the panic of the year 1825; and that, of course, they would bring forward as much of the information which they might obtain in the course of that inquiry, as could be required for the satisfaction of the House and the public. He would also beg leave to say, that his hon. friend had no right to assume that the Committee would not see the necessity of producing only such pans of the information submitted to them, as could not be injurious to the interests of individuals. He did not feel himself at present called upon to discuss the question whether the Charter ought to be renewed or not. The Committee would have occasion, in a short time, to report to the House the progress of the inquiry, and he therefore thought that it was not too much to ask his hon. friend to have so much confidence in the Committee as to suppose, that, if they thought it safe to lay before the House the evidence for which he asked, they would do so. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think that another advantage would be derived from the production of those Returns, inasmuch as he supposed that they would support his view of the question respecting the renewal of the Bank Charter. Now, they might have that tendency, or they might not. He was not prepared at present to give an opinion whether they had or not; but he thought, in either case, that it was much more expedient that the whole of the evidence bearing upon that question should come before the House at once, than that it should be produced in parts and at intervals. But yet, if the Committee should not produce all the information necessary to enable the House and the public to judge correctly of their decision, then he would say, that it was the duty of his hon. friend, or of any other Gentleman, to move for any papers which he might think necessary for the further information of the House. He begged to assure his hon. friend, that his opposition to the Motion did not proceed from any unwillingness to give the most ample information. On the contrary, he was most desirous that the House should be made fully acquainted with every thing which might enable hon. Members to judge correctly of all the bearings of the question, and he was satisfied that, when the Report of the Committee should be laid on the Table, his hon. friend would have no right to complain of the insufficiency of the evidence. But at present he must oppose the production of the Returns moved for, as premature and inconvenient.

thought, that the Motion ought to be complied with, and that the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had said nothing to explain the inexpediency of granting the Returns. If, indeed, the noble Lord had said, that the information asked for was already before the Committee, or that it was intended to be submitted to them, then he (Mr. Hume) would say, that the Motion ought not to be persevered in at present. The information called for by his hon. friend was such as ought to be laid before the House from time to time; and every bank—much more a bank possessing so extensive a monopoly as that of the Bank of England—ought to be required to lay before Parliament, every six months, a similar account of its proceedings and condition. If he was lo understand that those papers would be included in the Report of the Committee, he would not object to the Motion's being withdrawn for the present.

suggested, that the Motion should be withdrawn for the present, with the understanding that the production of the papers would not be refused, should the hon. Member (Mr. Easthope) feel it necessary to ask again for them.

, as a member of the Committee, expressed great doubts that it would be possible for the Committee to get through so much of the inquiry as would enable them to draw up a Report before the end of the present Session. He therefore was of opinion that the papers ought to be produced. A report had gone abroad, that the Government meant to renew the Bank Charter, which ought to be confirmed or contradicted as speedily as possible.

said, that the inquiry, as far as it had proceeded, was prosecuted in as judicious a manner as, under the circum- stances, could be expected. He believed that when the evidence came to be laid upon the Table of the House, the public would pronounce a similar opinion. With regard to the rum-ours and statements that had been published in the newspapers, much had been circulated that was erroneous; and the characters of these rum-ours and statements was, he thought, a compliment to every member of the Committee, for it showed that none of them had disclosed what had been laid before them. If the hon. Gentleman who brought forward the Motion conceived that the information to which he had adverted had not been called for in the course of inquiry, he would say that he was mistaken. He felt anxious to reply to some parts of the hon. Gentleman's speech, but the peculiar situation in which he stood must prevent him from doing so. He concurred with him in thinking that no subject ever came before the House that more immediately concerned the interests of the country than the one in question. The labours of the Committee would, he trusted, afford to the mercantile world satisfactory proof that they had pursued an equal and regular course, in order to procure the best information. Of what the Government might do, he was ignorant, but he understood that the public at large had no reason to apprehend any evil consequences from the inquiry.

entirely concurred in what had been said by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wished however to correct one remark of the hon. Member. He begged to ask the hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the Motion, whether he were right in understanding him to say, that the late Government had intimated a determination not to renew the Bank Charter?

said, that the words he had cited were used by Lord Goderich, who was a member of the late Administration.

apprehended that the hon. Gentleman laboured under a mistake. Lord Goderich was a member of the present, and not of the late Administration. He could undertake to say, that the Government of the Duke of Wellington came to no such determination as the hon. Member alluded to.

had no doubt that, whatever might be the decision of the House respecting the Renewal of the Charter, the Bank of England would most readily acquiesce in it. With regard to the present Motion, he considered it ill-timed.

was of opinion, that it would be prejudicial to the public interests to grant the desired information in the present stage of the inquiry. He hoped his hon. friend would rest satisfied with having made known his intentions, and abstain from pressing his Motion.

, in reply, defended his Motion, and stated that it was to Lord Liverpool's Government he had referred on the point of refusing to renew the Charter. The words of Lord Goderich's communication were, that "there was no intention of extending the present period of their chartered rights.^*" After the statement of the noble Lord he should not press his Motion to a division.

did not affirm or deny anything about what Lord Goderich might have said, but only spoke of the late Government. He would observe, however, that he believed that Lord Goderich's speech, which had been referred to, alluded to a proposal made by the Bank, to give them at that period, a continuation of their Charter for ten years; but as the matter had nothing to do with his argument he had not entered into it.

would again say, that Lord Goderich's declaration was, that Government had decided not to recommend to Parliament the Renewal of the Bank Charter.

, on rising to bring forward this Motion, said, that he had long looked for an opportunity of submitting to the House a plan for the advancement and improvement of the Education of the middle classes in Ireland. It was a portion of a more general project, the outline of which he had, on a former occasion, ventured to trace, beginning with the consideration of the elementary education, and ascending, through natural and just gradations, to the superior or university education of the country. Government had adopted the first portion of these views, and had, he trusted, permanently established a system, which, with a few alterations, to give

^* Hansard (new series) vol. xiv. p. 52.

greater efficacy and extension to its regulations, and the final solemn sanction of a legislative enactment, would fully vindicate to itself (what no system that had preceded it could claim) the character as well as name of a national education. They had now to proceed somewhat further, and having secured to the lower orders of the Irish people an unshackled participation in this first of human blessings, a good education, to open to the middle order in the State, what he was prepared to show was still more important, the springs of that knowledge which was best suited to their position and influence in the community. To arouse the Government and Legislature to a sense of this duty—to a due appreciation of its necessity and advantage—to originate something practical, and at least to begin what others, he was assured, were much better qualified to finish, was the object of the present Motion. He wished to lay the first stone of an improved system of education for the middle classes, and he should rejoice if others would from thence be induced to raise the superstructure. If, indeed, he had been allowed to choose, he should have preferred another form for his Motion. He should have preferred making the question of the diocesan schools subsidiary to the plan, instead of appearing to hold it out as the principal. But even such form was not without its advantages. It would convince hon. Members that he had no desire to spoliate, but to amend—no intention to throw down, but every anxiety to repair and to build up. The Church, indeed, was in this, as in most other questions of the present day, the principal agent; but he could not unnecessarily claim the alliance of popular feelings in such a cause. The subject was neither Protestant nor Catholic; it was the business of every man in Ireland. In this broad and national spirit only should he treat it. He knew too well, from recent instances, with what obstacles all education reform must have necessarily to contend. He felt that he had to battle with a fierce array of old misconceptions, and modern hostility; he was conscious that he trod upon slippery ground; but he had, in the deep and firm conviction, not the growth of to-day, nor of yesterday, but of many years, a staff of strength which he knew and felt would bear up his steps. What was insanity today would be common sense to-morrow. Changes the most striking had occurred almost in the time that the House of Commons had been talking of them. He proposed to go on as he had begun, not unnecessarily or abruptly interfering; with old institutions, but after first reducing them to their original object as far as possible, he would make use of them as the nucleus about which to group new improvements. He did not look to the destruction, or suspension, of either the diocesan or royal schools, but to the correction of their abuses—to recalling them to their original institution—to their enlargement and improvement, both in management and instruction, in such a manner that, whilst there was no departure from their original institution, they should be rendered infinitely more available to the purposes of that general and improved education which was demanded by the light of the age, and the wants and wishes of the middle and the professional classes in Ireland. He thought they might each with very slight modifications, better arrangement, and a greater extension of public pecuniary assistance, be raised to the importance of a scientific as well as literary academy. Every county in Ireland would thus be provided with precisely that education which was most required by the spirit and purposes of actual society. We should have a race of surveyors, navigators, engineers, architects, chemists, and agriculturists, raised for the natural uses of the nation itself at home. We should no longer be indebted for our imports of intellect, as well as commerce, to other countries. The intellect of our own people, so long allowed to run away to waste, could be brought into active, wholesome, and useful operation. Food on which the mind of the country could feed without injury, would be plentifully produced; a new order of men would raise a barrier against the vices and abuses, but, form a link between the virtues of both the higher and lower orders of society. In fine, the mind of Ireland would gradually be brought, by this severe and healthy discipline to a sound matter-of-fact, practical, and persevering temper. All our institutions would thus acquire a better guarantee both for their security and improvement, and the popular feelings be quietly and almost imperceptibly weaned away from the desire and love of change and agitation. These were great, but in his mind they were also most attainable objects; to attain them, however, it was first necessary to ascertain our materials; to ascertain them it was necessary to inquire; such was the purpose of the present Motion. He called for returns of the actual state of the diocesan and royal schools; many of these returns, he was well aware, had "been already furnished, but they had in general been very ill classified, and did not go to suggest any alteration. Now, he looked, in the first instance, for a distinct and ample expose of the entire system; and in the next (from such persons as he thought best qualified to give it), for every suggestion which could tend to render these schools more available to the purposes of general professional education. When such returns should be before the House, he should then be prepared to proceed, by bill or otherwise, to the more general plan of the education of the middle classes in Ireland. For the present he should limit himself to the consideration of these diocesan and royal schools to state the practicability of their improvement, and the urgent necessity there existed (on a comparison with other countries) of an immediate exertion to found at once something like a system of education for the middle classes in Ireland. Those classes were supposed to have little susceptibility of scientific cultivation. The national temperament was too hot and imaginative; it was said not to consent easily to the coldness and restraint imposed by the gravity of the sciences. This allegation might well be contested on many theories, but he preferred having at once recourse to a less questionable test—to experience. Now, experience lay completely the other way. It was true, indeed, that the Cork Institution had been instanced in the south of Ireland as a failure; Government, after some years' trial, had withdrawn their grant; the lecture rooms, even when tickets were issued gratis, were stated, though erroneously, scarcely ever to have been crowded. But these defects were easily accounted for; the system was injudicious; lectures were desultory, and generally little more than ingenious idling, without accompanying instruction. Government had not gone too far, but had not gone far enough. The application of the institution to Lord Leveson Gower proved that a little broader policy at the outset would have produced precisely the opposite results. In the very same city and about the same time that these charges were made there were educating in the Catholic schools alone in geometry, eighty; in algebra, sixty; in mensuration and navigation, a still greater number. But if the south was supposed to give no great indication of this spirit, what could be said against the north? Look, for instance, to Belfast. Before the establishment of the Academical Institution of that town it was not possible to meet in the district more than four or five mathematical students. What had been the case since? From 1814 to 1825 there was not less than 1,368 students who had passed through the mathematical classes; they might now be very fairly supposed to amount to 2,000. Not less than 1,200 had advanced in the same period, to the study of the differential and integral calculus; 189 had become mathematical teachers (in 1831 they amounted to 300), and had materially contributed to spread the passion for scientific acquirements through every part of the country. It was not the mind nor the men, neither the faculty nor the desire which was wanting; it was the opportunity and the means; it was Belfast Institutions which were required to give the faculty and the desire, the outlet it struggled for, the fair play it had a right to, in every county and city in Ireland. The people of Ireland were, then, just as much entitled to their chance of the advantages of scientific education as the people of this country or of Scotland. But they had these advantages at home, if they only knew how to look for them, and one of them consisted in those schools to which he was desirous of attracting the attention of the House. Why had they been so unavailing? was the first question. How could they be made really available to these purposes? was the second. The history of these schools involved many considerations, and he should endeavour to treat each in that order which might make them somewhat more intelligible than, he believed, they actually were to a majority of this House. He should endeavour to show—first, that these schools were of strictly Catholic and national foundation; secondly, that the Church solely was originally bound to support them, though subsequently, as in the case of the repair of Churches and other charges, it shifted the burthen, in great part, to the shoulders of the people; thirdly, that notwithstanding these alterations, the Church had continued altogether to neglect the obligations which both divine and human law imposed, and suffered the schools to diminish and fall into decay; and fourthly, that it was the bounden duty, both of this House and the Government, to bring back the Church to the performance of these engagements, and see that institutions destined for the people, should not be lost to the people by either connivance or concurrence in the abuse. There was an impression prevalent, that the diocesan schools were originally Protestant, and destined exclusively to Protestant purposes; nothing could be more erroneous. They were originally Catholic, and were still open, under the very statutes under which they were retained, not created, to Catholic as well as Protestant. In one word, they were, and had always been, in principle, though not in practice, strictly national. Catholics, and especially the Catholic Church, had been calumniated for her presumed hostility to instruction. Her councils spoke another language. One of the councils of Lateran ordains, "that means shall be procured in every parish for the support of a teacher, whose duty shall be to instruct the clerks and all the poor gratis." By a succeeding council, provision was made in like manner, "for a lecture in divinity, whenever the church should happen to be a cathedral." And in other cases, a schoolmaster should be provided, and empowered to collect a stipend from the rich, but bound to the instruction of the clerks and other poor gratis. The Council of Trent, the great concluding council of the Catholic Church, enforces the same obligation, (session 5, c. 1st); and when a sufficient maintenance for teachers in cathedrals could not be procured, by the gift of a Prebend, the Bishops (and this was precisely the principle of the diocesan schools) were empowered to lay their clergy for the purpose, under contribution; even in the poorer parishes a schoolmaster was ordinarily provided, lest that necessary work of piety should be neglected. Catholic countries still adopted these canons. Catholic England had transmitted them in the preservation of her parochial and cathedral, or collegiate schools, to Protestant England; and even Scotland, boasting, as she justly did, one of the best systems both of primary and secondary education in Europe—Presbyterian Scotland had only copied the system of Rome and Popery. The celebrated Act of William (1696) was only a transcript from a Scottish law of the fifteenth century, which was itself the enforcement only, by civil sanction, of the original canon of the Catholic Church. Henry and Elizabeth introduced the Reformation into Ireland, but they did not always destroy, they often applied what they found existing to the purposes of the new arrangement. Henry retained the parochial, Elizabeth the cathedral or diocesan schools, and precisely on the principle he had been describing. Her Statute (12th Eliz. c. 1st) was very specific. It enacts, "that there shall be found henceforth a free school in every diocese or of this realm of Ireland, whereof the master should be English, the Lord Deputy to have the remuneration, except in the dioceses of Armagh, Dublin, Meath, and Kildare. The school-house to be placed in the principal shire town, at the cost and charges of the whole diocese, without respect of freedoms, by the desire and oversight of the ordinaries of the diocese, or of the heirs general, and of the sheriff of the shire. The Lord Deputy, or Chief Governor for the time being, according to the quantity or quality of each diocese, to appoint such yearly pension for the schoolmaster as he shall think convenient, whereof the ordinaries of every diocese shall bear yearly, for ever, the third part, and the parsons, vicars, prebendaries, and other ecclesiastical persons of the same dioceses shall pay yearly, for ever, the other two parts, by a yearly contribution, to be made by the same ordinances." This law, then, left no doubt that it was the Church, not the laity—the dioceses, not the country, which were to provide—not one word of religion—at least, not one word of exclusion or restriction. It was for the whole people; and ten years, it must be remarked, had then elapsed after the passing of the Act of Uniformity. Sir John Davies indicated how much was hoped from the institution. The very year after, he stated, that to give a civil education to the youth of this land, "there should be one free school erected in every diocese of this kingdom." But those hopes were not continued to be realised: already, in the reign of William, decay had been felt, originating from an anxiety to throw the burthens on the people. By 7th William 3rd, c. 4, Justices of the Peace and Judges of Assize were required to give this Act in charge to Grand Juries, and to be very circumspect in seeing the same put into execution. The 8th of George 1st, c. 6, exhibited similar complaints; and in order to gratify and encourage the execution of the law, it allowed the Church to allocate land, and thus exonerated, at least in part, the existing incumbents. 5 George 2nd, c. 4, further extended this indulgence, and, for the first time, evinced the disposition to throw the burthen on the laity. It first proceeded cautiously; it was permissive. Tenants in fee tail and for life were empowered to grant land, not exceeding one acre, for those purposes. But 12th George 2nd, c. 9, and especially 29 George 2nd, c. 7, proceeded boldly. The first still required, indeed, in strict language, that the Archbishop or Bishop, &c., should provide the land, not exceeding one plantation acre, "to be for ever deemed and reputed to be the place for the free school of the said diocese; and that, until such piece of ground shall be set out, the free school shall be kept in such convenient place, within the said diocese, as the Archbishop or Bishop of the same can procure," &c.; but, then, it threw the burthen of the building, or repairing, in part, of these schools on the country. The Grand Juries were empowered to present such sums as they should find reasonable for their respective proportion, towards building or repairing such diocesan school, to be levied upon the whole, or such part of the said county, as should be situated in each respective diocese. There was a display afterwards of great severity. The Archbishop, &c., were empowered to sequester the profits of the benefice of any beneficed clergyman who should not pay his proportion to the schoolmaster, at the visitation, or within three calendar months after. But, as was anticipated, this respective proportion was impracticable, and 29th George 2nd, c. 7, threw the whole building and repairing, through the same machinery of Grand Juries, on the people. It was a lamentable fact, that Ireland was more deficient in education than any part of Europe. He did not wish to spoliate, but was anxious that funds should be raised to remove the ignorance of the middle classes in Ireland. They had the means in their hands. They had only to support diocesan schools by the means provided in the reign of a Protestant princess, Queen Elizabeth. This was a subject to which few had given due attention, and he was anxious to develop it to its utmost. He would, therefore, move an Address to his Majesty praying him, that the Commissioners of Education in Ireland might be instructed to inquire into the number and state of the diocesan schools in that country, and to consider whether their system of education might not be better directed to more scientific objects.

moved for a Copy of the Appointment of Clerk of the Patents and Registrar of Affidavits in the Court of Chancery.

would take that opportunity of saying a word upon what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney General, late last night, in reference to what he (Sir Edward Sugden) had said in the early part of the evening, on the subject of the recent appointment in the Court of Chancery. His hon. and learned friend seemed surprised that he should have mentioned anything relating to the Lord Chancellor in his (the Attorney General's) absence. He was sure that at whatever time the subject of the Lord Chancellor, or any thing relating to him, was mentioned in that House, he could not be without friends present to attend to his interests. For his own part he had not felt it necessary to wait for the presence of the Attorney General, on the subject to which he had called the attention of the House; and the less so, as he had given notice to his hon. and learned friend, the Solicitor General, for the purpose of having it communicated to the Lord Chancellor, that it was his intention to mention the subject in the House, and this, let it be understood, was before he had any knowledge whatever that the offices in question had been filled up. Indeed, he did not know of any appointment having taken place, until he was within a few yards of the House, when he was informed of it by an hon. Member whom he met. He was anxious to set himself right with the House as to the facts of the case, as he understood that the matter had been made the subject of some remarks by the noble and learned Lord that evening in another place, some of which were directed against himself. However, he would not take any further notice of those remarks until he had them from a more authentic source. He would wait until he saw them, and would take the opportunity when the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) should bring forward his Motion respecting the Lord Chancellor's salary, when he would defend himself against the sarcasms of the noble and learned Lord, or against those of any other individual who might have attacked him.

said, he had not expressed any surprise at his hon. friend having brought forward the subject in his absence. His surprise was, that it should be brought on at all that evening, as he had understood from his hon. and learned friend, the Solicitor General, that the Lord Chancellor was to be asked respecting the office, and whether it was to be filled up. All he had done was, to express his regret that he was not present when his hon. friend had introduced the subject, and that regret he still felt; for on looking at the usual vehicles of information, as to what passed in the House, he found that the remarks which had been made were calculated to produce rather an unfavourable impression in the public mind against the noble and learned Lord. If he had been present, two minutes would not have elapsed after the statement, till he should have given such an explanation as would have at once removed from the mind of every hon. Member any unfavourable impression which the previous remarks might have made.

said, that the impression upon his mind had been, that the places in question had not been filled up at all, nor was he aware that the inquiry intended by his hon. and learned friend the member for St. Mawes, was directed to the appointment in question. Indeed, he had been prevented, under peculiar circumstances, from seeing the Lord Chancellor upon the subject.

considered he was perfectly justified in pursuing the course which he had felt it his duty to adopt, a course which did not want precedent, it was a mere matter of inquiry or question to the Government, such as it was quite regular to make, as he would contend, without notice. He denied that he had been guilty of any thing that was inconsistent with the usual practice of the House. Similar inquiries had been made on former occasions with reference to the appointments held by many individuals without notice, and been answered without any charge of irregularity. But in fact he told the Solicitor General that he had intended to put a question in the House as to what had been done with the sinecure places held by Mr. Scott, but he had afterwards heard of Mr. James Brougham's vacating his seat, and he had then asked why this had been done, and he was not bound in courtesy to wait for the presence of the Attorney General. He should treat the Lord Chancellor in that House as the Lord Chancellor had treated him in the House of Lords, and he should bring the subject regularly forward.

maintained, that if ever a question had been put that meant or was intended to convey a censure, it was the question put by the hon. and learned Gentleman, on a former occasion, without any notice. He, however, could say, with reference to the offices in question, that they had been pronounced to be absolutely necessary after a consultation upon the subject, by the Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, and the Vice Chancellor. He must again complain of the want of notice when the subject had been before introduced, for if such notice had been given, he should have excused himself from the duties which he had to discharge elsewhere, and have been in his place to have met the question with the fullest information upon the subject. He was also certain, that such information would have sufficed to satisfy the House, that nothing had been done with regard to these appointments of which even the most captious could complain. Such questions, conveying as they did, more or less censure upon the parties to whom they referred, should not be made without notice; for though he was sure that the characters of the parties referred to in the present inquiry were above all suspicion; yet an injury might arise even if a delay of twenty-four hours should occur in answering such an inquiry, tending as it did to censure. He should hope that, on all occasions of attacks being thus personally made against individuals, whoever they might be, that notice would be given, and if such a course had in this case been pursued, he should have been ready in the first instance to meet it.

said, that some imputations had been thrown out against his learned friend (Sir E. Sugden) of having, with reference to the question, violated the usual courtesy of debate. He (Sir C. (Wetherell) saw not the slightest ground for that imputation. On the contrary, he thought that the conduct of the learned Gentleman had been perfectly open, gentlemanlike, and honourable. Many reflections had been cast on the conduct of the Lord Chancellor; but the most censorious of all who had spoken was the hon. member for Westminster (Sir F. Burdett) who said, in the course of his observations, that he could not believe it possible the Chancellor had made any permanent appointment to the offices in question.

was not ignorant that the appointments had been made; though, from the nature of the offices, it was not incumbent on him to be acquainted with the period of their being filled up. It was undoubtedly in the power of any Member to ask a question, whether it implied a censure or not; but from his experience of parliamentary usage, he would say, in reference to that point, that he did not think the question which had been put, was one that should have been put without such a notice as was usually given.

said, the observation alluded to by the member for Borough-bridge (Sir C. Wetherell) was founded on his belief, from a knowledge of the character and understanding of the Lord Chancellor, that he could not have done that which was attributed to him.

thought, that the course pursued by the hon. and learned member for St. Mawes (Sir E. SugdenJ, had been perfectly courteous and decorous. What had the hon. Member done? He had merely asked a question as to the filling of certain offices, after telling the Solicitor General that he meant to ask it, and that question was one of a kind that were frequently asked without any notice whatever. It was impossible to act more honourably. The Lord Chancellor could not have wanted defenders, even in the absence of the Attorney General, when his Lordship's brother, and so many of his friends, were in the House.

stated, that he had been instructed some time since, by the Lord Chancellor, to prepare two bills for the Reform of the Court of Chancery. One of these bills was already on the Table; the delay in bringing forward the other was attributable only to himself. It happened that the very first paragraph of that second bill (which was actually prepared) was—Whereas it is expedient that the office of Registar of Affidavits in the Court of Chancery be abolished.' Under these circumstances, on learning the death of Mr. Scott, he thought it his duty to wait immediately on the Lord Chancellor, to ascertain whether that noble Lord had altered his intention with respect to the office in question. The instant he mentioned the subject, the Lord Chancellor assured him most distinctly that it was his intention to bring in the Bill as it was, without the least variation as respected the abolition of that office. Indeed, the Lord Chancellor hardly allowed him to finish his sentence before he stopped him with this assurance. He must further say, that it was on Tuesday, the 10th of July, when he moved for leave to bring in his bill, that he had an interview with the Lord Chancellor, when he stated, as appears in the reports of the debate, that it was his intention as soon as possible to bring in the Bill he had drawn, for regulating the officers, &c. but the Chancellor wished that a clause should be added, for constituting an appellate Court, and desired him to add such a clause, and when that was done he would immediately bring in the Bill. He (Mr. Spence) then added, that he had found so much difficulty in framing that clause, particularly as regards the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, that he had not yet prepared it, so that the delay in bringing in the Bill between the time of the office of Registrar of Affidavits becoming vacant, and the period of the depending discussion, was attributable to him, and not to the Chancellor, which he the more regretted, as probably, in case he had been able to have prepared the clause before that time, the Bill might have been brought in, and then all question as to the Lord Chancellor's intentions would have been put at rest, and the present unpleasant discussion entirely prevented. He thought it right to give that explanation, and to add, that the Master of the Rolls, and others who were consulted on the subject, gave it as their opinion that the offices should for the present be filled up, because there were important duties to be performed by the deputies, and it was necessary those deputies should have a principal.

, a plain question had been asked last night, and it had received no answer. He knew nothing of the Lord Chancellor, or his affairs, or connexions, but finding that a plain question was not answered, he felt it his duty to move for a return of the appointments. There was nothing in that either singular or unbecoming, and perhaps its best defence was to be found in the fact, that the Lord Chancellor's friends admitted the offices to be useless ones, and that they ought to be abolished.

observed, that the learned Gentleman (the Solicitor General) had been the organ through which he had hitherto communicated any of his motions with respect to the Lord Chancellor or his Court; but if that was not the regular one, he must choose another for the future.