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Commons Chamber

Volume 38: debated on Thursday 13 July 1837

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House Of Commons

Thursday, July 13, 1837.

MINUTES.] Bills. Read a third time:—Lords Justices.—Read a first and second time:—Clerks of the Peace; Documents.

Standing Orders

on rising to move the adoption of the new Standing Orders, relative to private Bills prepared and recommended by the Committee which the House had appointed, said he wished it distinctly to be understood, that no material deviation had been made from the orders now in force, except in one point, and to that point he would afterwards call the attention of the House. The new orders had been carefully prepared, and the Committee which the House had appointed had given the subject the most mature consideration. A sub-committee had been appointed by the original Committee, the members of which had devoted a great deal of time to the revision of the old standing orders, and although they had made no alterations in the substance of those orders, they had very materially improved the phraseology, rendering their meaning more plain and perspicuous. The alterations they had made had also been submitted to those Members best acquainted with the mode of conducting the private business of the House, and to every one competent to give a good opinion on the subject. He stated these particulars, because in asking the House to adopt the recommendations of the Committee, he was aware that the House could only agree to his proposition on some competent authority; and he thought they could have no better authority than the recommendation of the sub-committee which had been appointed, and who had carefully and zealously discharged their duty. He would call the attention of the House to the single point in regard to which any material alteration had been made on the old standing orders. That alteration related to railway bills, and in regard to railway bills it was provided that before parties seeking to obtain such Bills should be allowed to proceed, proof should be afforded that a sum either in money, Exchequer-bills, or other Government securities, to the amount of ten per cent, on the capital required for the completion of the undertaking, shall have been subscribed and deposited in the Bank of England, as a security to the House and to the public against speculation, and to show that the undertaking was bonâ fide to be carried into execution. This alteration had been recommended by the hon. Member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton), who, as Chairman of the Committee on the Deptford and Dover Railway Subscription List, had strongly impressed on the Standing Orders Committee, the necessity of making such a regulation, in order to guard against fraud. Many hon. Members thought that that was too small a sum; but it had been deemed advisable not to increase it, lest unnecessary obstacles should be thrown in the way of railroad undertakings. Such was the only material alteration which had been made by the Committee in the old standing orders, and from the experience they had had, it could hardly be doubted that such a provision was necessary.

Mr. Hawes , having seen the Report for the first time that morning, was hardly prepared to express his opinion upon it, nor did he think that any Member of the House could be in a condition to do so. As far as he could judge from a very imperfect glance of the report, some of the recommendations of the Committee would involve a very serious alteration of the Standing Orders. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that, with one exception, the alterations proposed were not new; but, in fact, it was now proposed to incorporate in those orders, which hereafter were to be the Standing Orders of the House, matter which last year was merely recommendatory. He thought, therefore, that the report should not be adopted until some further time had been allowed for its consideration. He should beg to move that the further consideration of the report be postponed till the next day.

said, if he understood the hon. Member for Lambeth correctly, he proposed not to postpone the further consideration of the report sine die, but only till to-morrow. If the report had only come into the hands of members that morning, it was quite impossible they could have given to it the consideration which its importance demanded. It certainly appeared that some of the proposed alterations were of a very important character, and that portion of the public which had seen them strongly objected to their being adopted by the House without some discussion. He was, therefore, decidedly of opinion that the further consideration of the report ought to be deferred till to-morrow.

said, that at the present period of the Session it would be impossible if the proposed postponement were to be made, that the standing orders could be considered until another Session of Parliament; so that all the labours of the Committee, which had been sitting for months, would be completely lost And why? His hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) said that many important alterations had been made. Now, he (Mr. P. Thomson) begged to inform the hon. Member that the report proposed no substantial alterations whatever of the standing orders, with the single exception which he had mentioned and explained.

had read the report and approved of it. The labours of the Committee had been directed, not to alter the standing orders, but to re-arrange them, to place them in better order, and to improve their phraseology. The only alteration proposed was that with respect to railway subscription lists—an alteration which the gross abuse of the old orders of the House rendered absolutely necessary. Nobody would wish to adhere to the old standing orders. No time, then, should be lost in considering the new.

thought there could be no serious difference of opinion upon the report. As to the subscription list, he thought, if nothing else were done, that that at least ought to be adopted. The only complaint he had to make on it was that it did not go far enough, and he had originally proposed that the deposit should be twenty per cent, upon the amount of the capital instead of ten percent. The proposed regulation would not interfere with any fair or well-founded transaction, but certainly it would interfere with any foul or improper transaction that ought never to have made its appearance before the public; for that reason he should be most anxious to give his support to the proposition.

Amendment withdrawn.

The orders read seriatim and agreed to.

Ecclesiastical Appointments

gave notice that he should to-morrow move that the Amendments introduced by the Lords into this Bill be taken into consideration. He could at once state that he intended to move that the House disagree with a clause introduced by their Lordships into the Bill respecting those Gentlemen who had been Speakers of the House of Commons. This clause involved a matter peculiarly belonging to that House, and it was quite impossible for that House to allow that it had committed an injustice which might be implied by the adoption of the clause, and it was also impossible that the House of Lords should be permitted to interfere with the proceedings of that House, and be enabled to say how it should carry into effect its own wishes and intentions. On these grounds he should move that that House disagree with this Amendment of the Lords. The Bill itself only suspended the appointment to ecclesiastical sinecure situations for a-year, by the expiration of which time he hoped that the general measure would pass on the subject. He wished also to add, that as it was too late during the present Session, he should be happy on a future occasion to enter upon the consideration and discussion as to any equitable claims that these reverend gentlemen might have.

denied that the House of Lords had interfered with any of the privileges of that House in adopting this clause. The suggestion involved in the clause was now a matter of history for three preceding Houses of Commons had severally addressed the Crown in favour of their three chaplains, and praying that they should be appointed to offices of dignity in the Church. He should endeavour to show to-morrow that the faith of that House of Parliament and the honour of the Crown were pledged to these individuals, independently of any claims they might have from their services and qualifications to such appointments. The object of the clause was not to compel such appointments, but to enable the Crown, if it should think fit, to appoint these gentlemen.

Notice given.

Trade With France

stated, that he wished to put a question to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade with respect to the state of our trade with France. He had been requested by a number of his constituents to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government intended to take any steps to procure an alteration as regarded the trade in wool between the two countries. It appeared that French wool could be introduced into our markets without the payment of any duty, whereas, English wool could not be introduced into France, without the payment of an ad valorem duty of twenty-two per cent. This was a manifest injustice to the producers of English wool, and he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman had some information to communicate to the House on the subject.

replied, that he had not ceased to press on the French Government the advantage that they would derive from the reduction of the duty on English wool, as well as other duties; but his exertions had not hitherto been attended with the success he could wish. The hon. Gentleman was under a mistake in supposing that there was no duty on the importation of French wool into this country—there was a small duty on that article. The proceeding of this country, however, only showed how much wiser we were than the French, as it enabled us to manufacture woollens at a much cheaper rate than the French. He would only add, that he would continue to exert himself to instruct the French government on this point, so as to induce them to adopt a wiser system of commercial policy.

Municipal Corporations(England) Act Amendment Bill

A conference with the Lords on the subject of the amendments made by the Lords on the amendments of the Commons on the amendments of the Lords in the Corporation Act Amendment Bill was held, when the Lords gave their reasons for maintaining the Bill as re-amended by their Lordships'.