wished to take that opportunity of stating to the House that he understood that doubts had occurred—although he did not think that they were reasonable and just doubts—as to the propriety and legality of the course that had been taken at the last sitting respecting the petitions that had been presented complaining of undue returns of Members at the late election. It was required by the Act that in certain cases within five days of the appointment of a Committee to try the merits of a contested election the parties should be mutually furnished with a list of the voters objected to on each side; but this period was lengthened five days in the case of county elections in England, and elections in Scotland. The clause in the Act went on to say, that the lists of objections, &c, should be exchanged so many days before the sitting of the Committee, but if the House should previously postpone the appointment of the Committee, that the time of exchanging the lists should also be postponed. He did not think that any fair doubts could arise or be entertained as to what took place the other evening on the subject of the postponement of the nomination of the Election Committees until after the vacation. He was told, however, that there were persons of authority who thought that there was a doubt on the subject, and that, as the Election Committees now stood fixed for the twelfth of December, two days before that time the parties interested in English county elections and Scotch elections where petitions had been presented, would feel themselves obliged to give in their lists. He stated this to the House, not that he entertained any doubt himself, but in the hope that the point would not be overlooked. If there was thought to be any ground of doubt in the opinion of the House, or in the mind of any hon. Member, he would endeavour to remove it by moving to-morrow, or next day, that the House would not take into its consideration any election petition until after the vacation. He did not wish, however, to take up the time of the House on the subject unless it appeared to hon. Members there were now great doubts on the subject. But looking to the words of the clause, which it was not necessary for Him to quote, he thought that there could be no reasonable doubt entertained on the subject.

could assure the hon. Gentleman that it was with no hostility to the object he had in view, or to the mode in which he proposed to effect it, that he rose to suggest to him, after the course which had been taken by the House, the absolute necessity of postponing the second reading of this Bill. The House would recollect that, on the same day on which he obtained leave to introduce a Bill for the correction of the law respecting controverted elections, another hon. Gentleman (the Member for Dublin) also had permission granted him to bring in a Bill having precisely the same object, but proposing to obtain it by a course as different as possible from that of the hon. Member for Liskeard. Before going further into the question, he would put it to the hon. Member for Liskeard whether this circumstance was not in itself sufficient to induce him to postpone the second reading of his Bill? If the hon. Member persisted, he should deem it his duty to make a few further remarks on the subject.

intimated his intention of proceeding with the Bill.

, under such circumstances, felt bound to address to the House some further observations on the subject. He had just pointed out to the recollection of the House, that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had obtained leave to bring in a Bill similar in its object with that of the hon. Member for Liskeard, but distinctly different in its mode of procedure. Such being the state of things, it was obvious that the House, before it came to the consideration of either of these measures, must be desirous of having both placed clearly before them, in order to see which of them was the best, in order to judge which of them should be accepted, or whether both should be rejected. The adoption of both was of course out of the question. The hon. Member for Liskeard was, therefore, most unreasonable when he insisted on the House adopting his plan in preference to the other which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had permission to introduce, when the House had not heard any of the details of the latter measure, and when, indeed, the House knew nothing of it, further than that it proceeded on principles diametrically opposed to that of the hon. Member for Liskeard. If the House were to assent to the second reading of the present Bill, in what possible manner could they proceed to discuss the principles of the Bill proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. He (Lord Stanley) did not wish to be understood as saying that he did not prefer the Bill of the hon. Member, as far as it went, to that which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had given an outline of; but he thought that as these Bills, with the same object, were so entirely different in their principle, justice and common sense, demanded that the House should have the details of both measures distinctly before them before they adopted either in preference to the other. The hon. Member, it appeared, proposed to make some slight alteration in the mode of appointing Election Committees, on the ground that these, as now constituted, formed a very partial tribunal—as consisting, in all cases, of parties highly interested in the result. The hon. and learned Member for Dublin also stated that, being persons selected from the body of the House, the Members of Election Committees must be considered as interested parties, and, therefore, not fit judges of the merits of the respective cases; and the hon. and learned Member, therefore, proposed to take the jurisdiction in controverted elections entirely out of the House, and refer it to a tribunal independent of the House—to a court of law, where all the points of law should be decided on. Now, he saw very great objections to taking the decision on questions of Parliamentary law out of the control of the House, and referring it to another tribunal; but at the same time he felt bound to point out to the House that, having given permission to the hon. and learned Member to introduce his Bill, they were bound to hear what that hon. and learned Gentleman had to urge in support of his proposition. The objection advanced by the hon. and learned Gentleman to the Bill of the hon. Member for Liskeard. was one that carried with it great weight. If an Election Committee, as at present constituted, was so fundamentally and grossly partial a tribunal that no election petition could be, with any expectation of unbiassed justice, referred to it, then it might with safety be asserted that the Bill of the hon. Member for Lis- keard afforded no remedy or palliation of the evil whatsoever. He would repeat that he was actuated by no hostility to the hon. Member's bill, and he was acting entirely without any communication with any hon. Member on either side of the House; but he considered that common sense suggested to them the postponement of this bill for a time, in order that they might be enabled thoroughly to weigh the two plans; and in order that the younger Members of the House might have time to become acquainted with the present system, and whatever inconveniences might exist in it, and thus be better able to judge which of the proposed remedies was the best. In reference to the postponement in point of time, had it been the hon. Gentleman's intention to apply the principles of his bill to election petitions now pending, there might have appeared much stronger grounds for his not postponing the bill; but it appeared that such was not the case, for the bill as printed, expressly provided that it was not to come into operation till the last day of the present Session of Parliament. It being thus admitted that the bill had no reference to pending petitions, the hon. Member had all the time before him till August (to have it fully considered, and it could therefore be no possible harm to the bill if its second reading were postponed till, say some time in February. He would take the opportunity of these Bills being under discussion to say that he by no means joined in the full extent of abuse which had been poured on Election committees, as at present constituted. He would by no means go the length of saying that it was impossible to constitute a tribunal out of the Members of that House which should be otherwise than so corrupt and so forgetful of the obligations imposed on them by a sense of honour, and the force of their oath, as that matters of fact and evidence could not safely be intrusted to their verdict, however constituted, but that they would inevitably give a false verdict, for the purpose of securing political and party objects. The House in considering this question should distinguish a little between that gross corruption which would give a false verdict upon facts for party and political objects, and that natural and unavoidable bias which influenced the most honest men when certain questions were submitted to their consideration. His own conviction was, that the fault was not so much in the construction of election tribunals as in the subject matter brought before them. He believed that the fault was, not that Members could not be trusted to give a fair and honourable verdict on matters of fact, but that the points brought before Election Committees were more or less nice points of law, and controverted points, on which much had to be said on both sides; these points being of trifling or no importance except in the particular case, yet very often of such vast importance in the particular case as to weigh very considerably with even the purest-minded members of Committees in giving their judgment upon it, some one way, some another, in reference only to the immediate case before them, and with the knowledge of the bearing their decision would have on the political interests for which they were respectively concerned. It was, therefore, not so much the corruption of the tribunal, but the uncertainty of the law, which had to be provided against. If they wished to begin at the right end—if they wished, as he believed all did, to promote the cause of abstract justice—they must commence by altering the duties of Election Committees. In the first place—and this was part of the hon. Member's bill, and a most desirable feature in it—they must appoint some tribunal to which reference should be made on disputed points arising before the revising barrister, having first established authorities by which all conflicting points of law should be decided generally, and which should guide and control all future Election Committees. As the law now stood, not only was it uncertain how any given Committee might decide upon a new point, but even upon many old points the decisions of different Committees were so various, that it was impossible to say which precedent out of the many would be adopted. Therefore it was, that it became essential to have a paramount authority which should declare the law generally, without reference to any particular case. It was his opinion that if a Committee of barristers of experience and standing were appointed to sit permanently as a court of appeal from the revising barristers, in a very few years all the cases which could arise out of the construction of the Reform Act would be settled. If the House would permit him, he would, without any party feeling whatever throw out a suggestion for its consideration and that of the hon. Member for Liskeard, namely, whether it might not be practicable to appoint a Committee consisting of the Members of the greatest eminence on both sides of the House, to whose opinion the House and the country would defer with confidence, and to whom it should be intrusted to examine all the points on which former Committees had come to conflicting decisions. That this Committee should lay down, as far as possible, general rules of practice and law, to be afterwards affirmed by a declaratory act, and to serve as a definite guide for all future Committees. Should it happen, indeed, that the Members of such a Committee were nicely balanced as to their opinions in politics, and, in consequence of their party views, took opposite views of the various propositions which would be brought forward, there might be some difficulty in passing through the Legislature any declaratory act founded on the report of such a Committee; but looking to the immense importance of the case, the absolute necessity acknowledged of establishing fixed rules for the decision of these questions, he felt assured that it would be practicable to produce such an unanimity in the decisions of a Committee fairly chosen from both sides of the House as it would have its weight in inducing the Legislature to pass a declaratory act founded on those decisions. He had ventured to throw out this suggestion entirely of his own feeling; he had consulted no other Member of the House on the subject; but he was quite confident that if the House wanted to obtain a legitimate authority for the decisions of its election committees, if they wished to secure an impartial tribunal, they would not obtain their end by any alteration in the manner in which Committees were now ballotted for, or by arranging whether the number on each Committee should be five or eleven. Their only efficient course would be to make the law so clear and so definite as that the duties of a Committee should be confined to the reception and examination of evidence, and should have to give a verdict on the facts simply, and not a declaration of the law. If this end were once attained, it would be a matter of very little importance whether the Members of Committees were chosen from one side of the House or from the other. He had hoped that the hon. Member for Liskeard would not have objected to postpone this Bill till February; but, in order to take the sense of the House upon the question, he should conclude with moving, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time on the 12th of February.

said, that he was always ready to accede to the declared wish of the House, or even to that of a large portion of the House; but he did not perceive that the noble Lord had adduced any sufficient reason, on the mere point of time, to impress upon the House a conviction that the 12th of February would be a better day for the second reading of the Bill than the present occasion. It appeared to him most desirable, that the principles of the Bill should be discussed as speedily as possible; for, although the Bill might not come into operation till the end of the Session, yet it was highly important that at the earliest possible period the public should have a guarantee that a system was not to be longer pursued which had been clearly proved to be dishonourable to the House and obstructive to justice. The noble Lord had put his amendment on the ground that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had leave to introduce a Bill with a peculiar object, which the House was entitled to have, in a detailed shape on the table, before they decided as to either. All he (Mr. Buller) could say in reply, was, that if the noble Lord, who was, doubtless, well acquainted with the intentions of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, or if any other hon. Member would take upon himself to guarantee to the House that the Bill of that hon. and learned Gentleman was forthcoming now, or would be forthcoming within a reasonable time, or that in fact the hon. and learned Gentleman meant that it should be forthcoming at all, he would acquiesce in the noble Lord's wish, that the present Bill should be postponed. He must, however, require a sufficient guarantee that the hon. and learned Member's Bill was in preparation; but he doubted whether the noble Lord could satisfy the House that one word of the Bill was written, or had been even thought of. He did not, for his own part, believe, nor could any man in his senses for a moment imagine, that there was the slightest intention on the part of the hon. and learned Gentleman of proceeding with the Bill in question. If anybody else, however, believed that the hon. and learned Gentleman's Bill was so far ready, that the House would be able to discuss the two together—if anybody really thought the hon. and learned Member's Bill would be worth a serious discussion—he would assent to wait, and have the two Bills placed together before the House; but he thought it rather too much to ask him to put off a Bill which he had printed, and which had received the sanction of a Committee of the House, for the purpose of waiting till the hon. and learned Member should have leisure and inclination to draw out a Bill which he (Mr. Buller) considered as not only uncreated, but as inconceivable and inconceived. The noble Lord said, he looked upon the fault as lying, not in the tribunal but in the law, which it had to administer. Now, he (Mr. Buller) could not quite agree with the noble Lord on this point. Of course all persons had certain prejudices in favour of their own character, and consequently the noble Lord had better ground to stand on with the present audience, when he expressed the opinion that Members of Committees would decide fairly and justly if they had only a good law to administer, than he (Mr. Buller) had when he stated an opinion that no small defect was in the composition of the committees themselves. He did not mean to say that the House of Commons was composed of men who were worse than the class of their countrymen from whom jurors were selected, or that they themselves would not make very trustworthy jurors. But what he meant to say was, that the mode in which members of Election Committees were selected rendered it next to impossible to expect justice in their decisions. Their full impression in almost all cases was not that they had justice to administer, but party and political objects to work for. He might observe, that some wonderful change seemed to have come over hon. Gentlemen in their self-estimation. When last he set forth the evils of the present system, there was no point on which he met with more general assent from the House than the dishonesty and incompetency which he charged against the present tribunal. He himself had, however, found no reason to change his opinion on this point; nor had the public come to a different view of the matter. None of the parties who came before the Election Committees had that confidence in their honour; quite the contrary: every body said that an election committee of the House of Commons was the last tribunal where a man could expect justice. The manner in which the newspapers discussed the pending election questions fully bore out what he said. In one of the Dublin papers people were urged to subscribe in support of petitions against Liberal Irish members, on the around that if the petitions produced no other good effect, they would bring down the ministerial majority to a level with the opposition, if not reduce them to a minority, and so give the Conservatives an advantage in election ballots; nor were the ministerial papers any better, for he had seen in one of them only the other morning a castigation of Mr. Martin, of Galway for pairing off with Mr. Cooper, who it was set forth, was disqualified from serving on an election committee in consequence of having subscribed to the fund in question. "Pairs," it was said, "may be very good things upon political questions, but not so when election petitions are in question." It was due to the House itself that it should as speedily as possible remove so destructive an imputation on its honour. At present it was the universal opinion out of the House, among Tories, Whigs, and Radicals, that an Election Committee of the House of Commons was an assemblage of men whom neither honour, virtue, nor their oaths could bind when their political bias was involved. Such an opinion as this the House should remove as speedily as possible. He did not for a moment mean to say that he concurred in the imputation to any thing lite the full extent; he did not believe that the House consisted of a set of men incapable of doing justice; but he conceived that the present system inevitably led them, in the generality of cases, into injustice. The reforms he proposed were as small as could be proposed. All he desired was, to get as far as possible on the right road. One great object would be to render the law certain. He should also desire to reduce the number of Members serving on each Committee; and he believed the general feeling to be, that the smaller the number Of Members the greater was the chance of justice, without any decrease of responsibility. Another improvement was, substituting a peremptory challenge for the present mode; and he believed this change would produce the ultimate effect that challenges would be exercised very sparingly. Another improvement would be, the introduction of publicity into the proceedings of Committees. He proposed that the votes which hon. Members gave on these Committees, on every resolution, should not only be entered on the record, but read by the Chairman when the public were readmitted. He would ensure further publicity by the Chairman giving his decision publicly; and thus, he thought, he should effect all the publicity that was necessary. He proposed another alteration, and it was one of considerable importance: it related to the law of costs. He would not say what the whole law of costs should be, for he thought that a matter which in a great measure it was better to leave to the regulation of the tribunals themselves when established. He proposed then to give the power to the assessors to regulate the costs till the necessary rules were laid down. The last alteration was one to which the noble Lord had given his high sanction, and it was the one which he believed to be the most important. He proposed the establishment of a court of appeal, composed of assessors. His proposition was, that three assessors should sit to hear appeals from the decisions given in the revising barristers' courts, as the Court of Queen's Bench heard appeals from the magistrates. It was not his object to deprive any man of his right of appeal to the House of Commons; but he would allow to no man a double appeal—he would not allow any point that had been decided by that higher tribunal of which he had spoken to be brought under the consideration of a Committee of the House of Commons. He hoped the House would excuse the length to which he had addressed them, his excuse being, that he had had no previous opportunity of explaining the details of what, he must confess, was a somewhat complicated measure. He knew his plan was objected to by many who said that it did not go far enough, that it was incomplete, that it did not remove the whole evil. He admitted that such might be the case. He was aware that there were a great many evils in the present system which his Bill did not remove; but it did not, at all events, aggravate any of them; so far as it went it proceeded in the right direction. He begged the House would bear in mind that he proposed this plan rather as the machinery for effecting future reforms than as a reform complete in itself. He would say, let no hon. Member obstruct the speedy passing of the Bill; it was not a party measure; it was a measure which the House ought to pass, if it were only in vindication of its own character.

perfectly concurred with the hon. and learned Gentleman in saying that this ought in no respect to be considered as a question of party, but one in which both sides of the House ought to feel an equal interest. It was surely as much the interest of one side of the House as the other that the tribunal which decided on elections was one entitled in every respect to the fullest confidence both of the House and the country. In saying this, however, he must also say that he entirely concurred in the observations which had fallen from his noble Friend (Lord Stanley), and particularly in his opinion that the House was not yet prepared for this discussion. The evidence submitted to them was this, that besides this Bill they had before them another of a decidedly different character. In his judgment they ought not to proceed with one of these Bills without having the other before them in such a state as to be able to institute a comparison between the two. If it was the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Buller) that the intention of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin at the time he moved for leave to bring in his Bill was not to proceed with it, he neglected his duty in not opposing the motion; but in fact, the only reason as signed by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin for introducing his measure was, that the House might be afforded the opportunity of judging as to the comparative merits of the two plans. He was not prepared to say how far he could give his sanction to either of them; but he thought that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin having obtained leave to introduce his Bill, till it was introduced, and he had had an opportunity of explaining its nature, it would not be just towards him, neither would it be consistent with the usual character of their proceedings, for the House to come to a decision either for the adoption or rejection of either of the measures. On that ground, independently of any opinion that he might form of the Bills themselves, he should decidedly object to their proceeding to the second reading of the hon. and learned Gentleman's measure. There were certainly portions of the Bill in which he was ready to concur; but it appeared to him that they were beginning at the wrong end. Their first object ought to be to remove the ambiguities of the old law of election, particularly of the Reform Act, which were the main cause of the discordant decisions of Committees. There was one remark made by the hon. and learned Gentleman from which he altogether dissented. He decidedly differed from him when he said that such was the opinion of the country of the profligacy characterising the conduct of hon. Members on Election Committees that it was believed they were bound neither by the dictates of honour nor the obligation of their oaths. He de- clared on his honour that he believed such imputations to be most unfounded, and that it was not true that such an opinion prevailed. If a conviction of that nature did exist in the country, then, indeed, should he think that a most radical reform would and ought to take place: he should expect that the country would indignantly rise and turn them out of the House. If the country entertained the opinion that its rulers, that those who made its laws, were so profligate, were so dishonest, as to be bound neither by the obligations of honour nor the still higher obligations of an oath—if that were really the case, the sooner the functions of Parliament were brought to an end the better. If he entertained such an opinion of the House, he would say, "Give him a despotism, and the sooner the better; give him anything rather than such a Government." Some of the Committees had come to different decisions it must be admitted, but it would always be the case that intelligent men would entertain opinions at variance with each other on points of law. For example, there was the case of the opening of the Irish registration. He had his opinion on that subject, but he thought that men might very fairly and honourably entertain an opinion on it different from his own. That was a question which, of all others, he thought most required to be put to rest by a declaratory act. There were other questions relative to the right of voting under the English Reform Act, upon which, even the assistant barristers sitting together had given most learned opinions showing that they took directly opposite views as to the proper construction of the law. Neither profligacy nor dishonesty was attributed to them; and if not, why draw such conclusions with regard to the House. With a view to correct this discordance he highly approved of the establishment of a court of appeal as proposed by the present Bill, nor did he object to afford to Committees the legal assistance of assessors, but he should feel great difficulty as to the proposed appointment of these assessors by the Speaker, and the confirmation of the appointment by the House. He thought that if such a mode of proceeding were adopted, the appointment would come, in point of fact, to be made by the majority of the House. Then, again, he considered that the reduction of the numbers of the Committee made it more probable that the Committee would consist of Members all of one side of the House. He did not think the present tribunal too large. He for one could not allow the judge of a court of common law to sit on points of Parliamentary law; there was a very great difference between the common law and the lex non scripta of Parliament. According to the law of Parliament the judges ought not to be called on to decide any question of Parliamentary law, nor according to an old dictum of their own ought they to be. He would instance this by the right of Peers to vote: that was a question that ought not to be put to the judges for their decision. They probably, as there is no express disqualification of Peers by statute, would maintain that right, which the House of Commons by their resolutions, had uniformly denied and resisted. But he took the preliminary objection to their proceeding further with this Bill: they had two plans before them, one being incompatible with the other, and before they decided on endeavouring to render either perfect, let them see and judge of both.

said, the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had made a mistake when he said there were two Bills before the House: there was but one. It was true he got leave of the House to bring in another, but he would state the course that he had intended to pursue. He proposed to put his Bill upon the table of the House, and to have it printed by the commencement of the recess, so as to be in the hands of hon. Members during that recess. He did not mean to proceed further with it till it had passed through a Committee, and then he would decide whether he would press it on the House or not. He now saw that he interrupted the present Bill by introducing his at all, and having satisfied himself as to that, he should move that the order for leave to him to bring in his Bill be discharged. Let them discuss the Bill before them on its own merits, and not with reference to any other. As the principle of this Bill, and not its details, was under their consideration, he begged to submit to the House whether it were not necessary that something should be done? When the right hon. Gentleman opposite told them on his word and honour he did not believe that the public were so dissatisfied with the Committees of that House—he must admit, though that the hon. Gentleman did not go quite to that extent; that was a little too far, and he had no wish to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman—when, however, the right hon. Gentleman declared on his word of honour that he did not believe the country entertained so bad an opinion of the House as had been stated, he fully believed that such was the belief which the hon. Gentleman entertained; but he must also express it as his opinion, that the public were greatly dissatisfied with the decision of the Election Committees of the House. It was rather an unfortunate circumstance that when a petition was sent down to them for trial there was immediately a very active canvass as they must all admit on each side. It was true that when men asked him to attend the ballot they did not say to him, "Pray go down to the House of Commons, ready to perjure yourself on the Committee!" Oh, no; but what they said was, "Pray go down to the House, that you may prevent the Tories from pressing themselves on the Committee." And did not the opposition say the same on their side. When the whipper-in went to them and pressed them to come down, did he say, "Come down, that you may be on the Committee, and no matter what the evidence, decide against the individual petitioned against, because he belongs to the opposite party?" No such thing. But what he did say was, "Go down, or the Reformers or Radicals will decide everything; they will not care for their oaths; they will perjure themselves and set at nought every moral obligation, in order to cause a decision in favour of their party.' The truth was they accused each other, and he believed that the public accused them both. It was notorious that when a Committee were to be ballotted for, each side was anxious to get upon the Committee a majority of individuals belonging to their party. Did they not know that it was commonly said by one side or the other, when the parties went from the bar, "They have no chance—we have beaten them—we have settled them now—there are seven to four; or there are six to five; they will appoint their chairman, their chairman has a double vote—they have not the least chance." Counsel had predicted thus, and their predictions had been verified by the event. Was that creditable to the House? They might delude themselves by the speeches they made there on the subject, but the public knew what the fact was, and the public condemned them all. In the case of Carlow alone there had been three different decisions by three different Committees on the question of opening the register. The first settled that the register should not be opened; eleven hon. Members on their oaths decided that. Eleven hon. Members, on another Committee, decided on their oaths that the same register should be opened. It was thought now that the possible differences between the Committees were exhausted; but it was not so, there was a third Committee, and they decided on their oaths that the register should be opened partially; they decided that whenever it could be shown that an objection was taken below at the time of the registry, it might be opened so far. What was the consequence? The Reformers had been unwilling to object to the first registry, from a wish to have the registration as general as possible; and thus not having objected to the first registry, the Tories had a great and decided advantage, for they were able to strike off whom they pleased, and the opposition party were able to strike off—none. In this instance, then, there were two directly opposing decisions, and one that was worse than either of the other two. Now, he put it to the House, would they have legal assistance or not? There was also the case of O'Dwyer, in which the Committee decided against the opinion of Lord Redesdale. He cast no imputations on the House; but ought they to be subject to such imputations from any quarter? There had been no Committee of the kind of which he was speaking appointed in that House; but he would not conceal from them that he should not have expected justice from an Election Committee of the last Parliament. Two seats had been decided against, by Committees of the last Parliament on the presumption that a man owed a tax because he was liable to it. A vote was objected to on the ground that the tax had not been paid; the objectors were not able to show that the man was in arrear. The books were produced, and his name was not on them; but because he resided in the street it was presumed that the tax was not paid. This was a monstrous case, but that decision unseated him. He then, asked them again, would they have no legal assistance? Was that such a state of things as ought to continue? To such an extent was the objectionable system carried that he had heard hon. Gentlemen reproached for having given certain votes in Committees of which they were Members. What, then, was public opinion upon the subject? He was ready to tell them. He should read for them a passage from a public newspaper—he meant to read it as part of his speech. The passage he referred to was written in allusion to the plan of the hon. Member for Liskeard; it expressed the conviction of the writer as to what the effect of the Bill would be. The writer said, "Thus this alteration would not put an end to what the writer of the article in The Law Magazine tenderly calls 'trifling with oaths.'" Did the House mark the expression "trifling with oaths." He had heard that House, before the Reform Bill became law, called "the noblest assembly of freemen in the world." He hoped the House had still some high feeling left; and yet did they mark what a law-writer—what one who it was supposed by his profession happened to know something of the working of their Committees—tenderly named "trifling with oaths." Was there a man amongst them who would trifle with his oath? Was there a man amongst them who would not say it was false that he would trifle with his oath? The writer said, "The Law Magazinetenderly calls it 'trifling with oaths, but which, in our opinion, amounts to a much higher crime. We alluded, cursorily, the other clay, to this part of the subject, and to the different condition of judges and witnesses, although each under the obligation of an oath. The Members of a Committee have often sent witnesses to New gate for giving false evidence, while they themselves, by their decision, have shown that they were utterly regardless of their own oaths, and careless whether the evidence were false or true." That was the language of The Morning Chronicle with regard to the decisions of their Committees, and to the regard paid to them by their oaths. It proceeded to say:—

"With regard to the assessors, who by Mr. C. Buller's Bill are to preside and determine points of law without the power of voting, we by no means think, if they could be found and appointed, that the result would correspond with the expectations of the framer of the measure. The opinion of the assessor, however well founded, would have but little weight with men who had made up their minds to forswear themselves from party motives; and we cannot help believing that the rights of petitioners and respondents (if we may so call them) would be even safer in the hands of men bound by their honour to determine fairly and impartially than bound by their oaths. At all events, it is quite clear that oaths have been and are of no avail. To violate honour might have a serious effect upon gentlemen in their intercourse with society; but we see plainly, that the avowed breach of a solemn oath on an election committee, entails no inconvenience or disgrace."

That was the language of The Morning Chronicle of the 3d of November. They cheered those opinions! Were they satisfied with the truth of what The Morning Chronicle said of them. They cheered a party paper because it publicly accused them of violating their oaths! They cheered that! If such were their carelessness and such their indifference with respect to the imputation—if it were only because it was said in a party paper that they were regardless of it, then he said, God help those who had to come before them for a decision. Did they not remember that the editor of the newspaper expected that its readers would believe the assertion? But did not hon. Gentlemen opposite see what their own newspapers stated with regard to them? Had he not read in The Standard a demand upon the Members of its own party to be diligent in attending upon the ballots for election petitions, as "the old Whigs never attended?" What was expected from this? Did it not argue a foregone conclusion equally with The Morning Chronicle It had come to this, in fact, that they who it was to be expected were to set an example of high morality to the country, they who were to be regarded as men of the highest honour, were now so lost to feeling as to be regardless of the observance of the most solemn obligation. They, too, were content that such remarks as he had read should be made respecting them! Hon. Members, too, were aware that upon the striking of an Election Committee, when two or three persons drawn belonged to the same party, a cheer was to be heard. Was not, he asked, this indecent? Was it not improper that any set of men should be appointed judges whose opinions might be influenced by political and party interest? The House was quite aware that at this moment the striking off a Member from one side or the other was an object of the greatest importance. The fate of England, of one-third of the empire—the fate of Ireland, and how it was to be governed—the appointment to the highest offices in the state, all depended upon the majority in that House. Good God! if they would not hear that questions concerning their property, their life, or their honour should he tried by men having the one hundredth part of the interest in the result of the trial which they had there, why permit trials in that House where such interests were at stake by the very parties who tried them? This Bill did not, in his opinion, go far enough? but it gave them at least one protection, that of a single impartial person—it also gave them publicity, which was another security at least. There was no man, he was sure, who heard him who was not convinced that a worse species of tribunal to decide rights than an election Committee there could not be. On his side of the House they sought to ameliorate the present system—upon the other side they stood forward as its protectors—in doing so they used all their influence in outraging the public feelings, and let them have with it all the prosperity that they could obtain.

was surprised at the course pursued by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. He had given credit to that hon. and learned Member at the moment that he had learned that it was his intention to have introduced a Bill of which he had given notice. Not only had the hon. and learned Gentleman altered the title of his Bill, so that it might proceed with the Bill of the hon. Member for Liskeard, but in so doing the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had declared his opinion that the proposition of the hon. Member for Liskeard could not be adopted. He (Sir E. Sugden) had understood the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, in speaking of that Bill, to express himself in as strong, though not uncourteous, terms, as it was possible for one Member to use in speaking of another. It did appear to him, therefore, and he said this without intending any imputation on the hon. and learned Member, that Members on his side had been most unpleasantly taken by surprise in consequence of the course the hon. and learned Member had adopted. He had come down to the House in the belief that they would have an opportunity of discussing the principle of both Bills before they were called on to affirm that of either. The hon. and learned Member said it had been his intention to allow the hon. Member for Liskeard's Bill to go to a Committee before proceeding with his own, but he ought to have known that when the House had given its sanction to the principle of the one Bill, it was utterly impossible that they could allow the other to be brought in at all. When the hon. Member for Liskeard's Bill had reached so advanced a stage of its progress, it would have been most irregular to call on the House to disclaim the principle they had affirmed, and to entertain another Bill, on a new principle, diametrically opposite to the former. He could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that they were Bills which could not travel together. The hon. and learned Member did gross injustice to that side of the House when he supposed they could come there to oppose a Bill designed to improve the character of the tribunal appointed to try contested elections. He believed there was not one Gentleman on that side who did not desire to give such assistance to that tribunal as should enable it to stand well with the country. He regarded that tribunal as necessarily having a judicial character; he declared that he had heard with unmixed horror the epithets applied to the conduct of its Members, and could he believe them to be just or de-served, instead of holding it an honour to be a Member of that House, he should look back to the day which had sent him there with the deepest pain and contrition. He could not make out that there was any real difference between the views of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) and those of the hon. Member for Liskeard. The noble Lord said, that however honourably a man commissioned to determine the validity of a disputed election might be disposed to judge, he was still but a man, liable to be influenced by party bias and prejudice, and to be embarrassed by the other obstacles in the way of arriving at a correct decision. The hon. Member for Liskeard, who had ridiculed the statement of the noble Lord, confirmed it in a subsequent part of his speech, for he said he did not believe any jury that ever existed would give an ho-nester and fairer decision than the Members of that House. So that, in fact, the hon. Member's objection to an Election Committee resolved itself into this—that as the Members of it were human beings, it was impossible to give credit to any conclusion they might come to, and that it must be unsatisfactory. The hon. and learned Member for Dublin had read a most offensive and most libellous passage from a daily print, which supported the interests, and was supposed to be in the confidence, of her Majesty's Ministers. In that libel, thus brought before the House, and read as part of the hon. Gentleman's speech, there was no distinction of party, nor any respect paid to the friends of those who wrote it; both sides of the House were equally attacked. The hon. Member, when reading the passage, was met by a cheer from the friends around him (Sir E. Sugden), and had affected to mistake its meaning. Could the hon. Member really be at a loss to know what that cheer meant? That cheer expressed, as clearly as any language could express, the disgust which all upon that side of the House felt at the imputation cast upon its character in the libel; it declared, in the face of the House and the country, that they were clear from the guilt laid to their charge, and the hon. Member must have known it. But what use had the hon. and learned Member made of this cheer? The libel he had read represented the system of trial for contested elections, as one that degraded them to the level of the lowest of mankind, and the hon. Member had insinuated that they cheered it as if it were true, and as if they approved of it. The hon. Member had imputed to that side of the House sentiments which never entered their minds, and which they altogether disclaimed. All sides of the House might be, and must be open to those influences which affected humanity; but he did not, and could not, believe that any Gentleman on either side could forget the solemn oath he took fairly to try the case, and to decide according to the best of his judgment on the evidence before him. If it were otherwise, then he could only say that the sooner the law was altered, the better for the country. There was great difficulty in entering on the discussion of the measure before the House, because they had been taken by surprise in being asked to sanction its principle. Anxious to adopt any plan which, without giving up the power of the House in election matters, would impart a better character to their decisions, and take away all ground for censure, he would consent at once to entertain the question; but he wished that the Bill might be postponed for such a time as would enable them to consider it properly, as well as allow the hon. Member for Dublin time to introduce his measure. They were not now prepared to discuss this measure as it ought to be discussed. In times gone by, an hon. Member would not have thought of moving the second reading of a Bill so important as this without making a single observation, but would have explained the principles on which it was founded, and the details by which he meant to give effect to them. His objection to this Bill was confined to its details: it did not extend to its principle. He would state to the House a few of the grounds on which he thought it would not operate well. The hon. Member for Liskeard asked, if they would continue a Committee irregularly and badly constituted, when they might create a far more eligible tribunal; and the hon. Member for Dublin, in the speech delivered by him, which was evidently intended for his own Bill, ascribed the vice of the system to the tribunal. Well, what did this Bill propose? Why, the same tribunal to all intents and purposes, though fewer in number. Instead of having an equal number of Members balloted for, and reduced to eleven, it was proposed that Committees should consist of five; but were these more likely to be bound by their oaths, or by the principles of honour than the eleven? Supposing they were more mindful of their honour, was it not safer to intrust such a power to the hands of eleven than five? Three assessors were to be appointed by the Speaker, barristers of not less than seven years' standing, with a salary of 2,000l. a-year,—not a large sum, but with so little to do for the money, that he was sure there would be a good many candidates. The House had the highest respect for the impartiality of the chair; but they could not but feel that, out of the chair, the Speaker, as an English gentleman, was opened to be swayed by party influences. As the assessor only held his situation during good behaviour, and as his nomination must be confirmed by the House, it was not to be expected that any man possessed of much practice at the bar, would be induced to withdraw from it by such a temptation. Should any man leave his practice for an office so precarious, and be obliged afterwards to resume it, he would soon find that his practice had left him. He did not believe, that that House would ever abandon its control over the elections of its own Members. In reviewing the history of the constitution, it was impossible not to be struck with the difficulty experienced by the Commons in establishing their own exclusive right to such interference, and there could hardly be a more dangerous measure than by an Act of Parliament to put a bridle on themselves and invest any other body with the power of deciding questions regarding their own elections. He should be able to show, in a more minute survey of the Bill, that other parts of it were equally objectionable. He could not persuade himself, that the other side of the House would take that side by surprise, and send the Bill to the Committee, without allowing that reasonable time, which was asked by the noble Lord to consider the measure.

said, that although he concurred generally with the hon. and learned Member for Dublin in thinking the present Committee for the trial of contested elections objectionable, he would not have ventured at that moment to obtrude himself on the attention of the House had it not been for one expression that fell from the hon. and learned Gentleman. The hon. and learned Member, in alluding to the acts of a Committee, which he designated in a manner not to be misunderstood, had stated that the Committee assumed that a voter had not paid his rates because his name was omitted from the rate-book of the district in which he lived, and had also said that that case lost him his election. He would unequivocally declare, if he rightly understood what had fallen from the hon. and learned Member, that he had asserted what was not accordant with the fact. He would not occupy the time of the House by a reference to the acts of that Committee, but he was bound to say, and it was the first opportunity afforded to him of stating it to the hon. Member's face, that the hon. Member had thought fit on many occasions to speak of his conduct at that time in a manner which he would not say the hon. Member would not have dared to do. [Order, order.] because he had seen too much—

said, he hoped the strong expression used by the hon. Member would be withdrawn.

was sorry if he had used any expression inconsistent with the propriety of debate, and apologised for having done so. The hon. Member had thrown out imputations from which he would not condescend to vindicate himself, but on behalf of that Committee, and not for himself, he declared in the face of the House and the country, that he had never acted with a set of gentlemen more free from party bias than those who composed the committee. He declared on his honour as a gentleman, that throughout the whole of that protracted investigation it was utterly impossible for him, though he had an intimate knowledge of the sentiments of each individual Member, to predict how any of them would vote. If they did not bring to the discharge of their duties a great degree of legal knowledge, the absence of which was reflection on them, still it was most unfair that they should be held up to public odium as having betrayed their trusts. For his own part, he should consider himself disgraced if he could allow himself to be influenced in the discharge of these duties by a factious motive. He was fully sensible, however, that so long as the public found that Members, whenever a ballot for a Committee took place, were asked to come down and "stand their shot," they would be persuaded that a strong party bias existed, which though it might not induce the Committee to act in direct contravention of their oaths, would exercise a pernicious influence on their decisions.

in explanation stated, that he had been misunderstood as having said, that one case lost him his election, instead! of one decision, which involved several cases.

felt it necessary to make a few observations upon the present occasion. He owned that there appeared to him to be grounds favourable to the second reading of this Bill. It was the result of the labours of a Committee that had given great attention to the subject; and he observed in the records of the House, as to the labours of that Committee, that on the subjects submitted to them, on which it was to be supposed there had been a great deal of argument, there had been not less than twenty-one divisions in the Committee. These had all taken place upon various points, and each of them the most important as connected with the principles of the Bill. He had read over the names of the Gentlemen who generally appeared upon the one side and upon the other, and to show the House the manner in which these divisions generally took place, he should take the division upon the question for the nomination of the assessors during good behaviour. The names upon the one side were Mr. Hardy and Mr. Pemberton; and upon the other Mr. W. Wynn, Mr. Strutt, Sir Thomas Fremantle, Mr. Grote, Mr. Villiers, and Lord George Somerset. These divisions were not courted by different political parties; but persons of the same political parties were to be found voting against each other. This he thought, looking to the names of the persons, was a proof that they might have been safely intrusted with the preparing of what was a difficult measure. The House had, then, the recommendation of a Select Committee for this Bill; and they were also aware that in the last Parliament it had been read a second time without a division. He said, then, that these were peculiarly favourable grounds for their granting a second reading, and so far sanctioning the principle of the Bill. The noble Lord (Stanley) and the learned Gentleman who followed him (Sir E. Sugden), especially his noble Friend, rested their objections on this ground—that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had obtained leave to bring in a Bill which was to be of a different character, though intended for the same purpose, and that that Bill ought first to be printed. The noble Lord placed rather too much reliance on the Member for the city of Dublin. The hon. Member had observed, that it had been his intention to introduce the Bill and have it printed, and allow it to be over during the recess; but when he followed up that by saying he thought the subject of so much consequence that rather than impede the progress of the present measure he would not introduce his own, then the whole argument built on the intention of the learned Gentleman fell to the ground. If they had to consider the two Bills founded on different principles, one already introduced, and the other to be introduced, in a few days, then it might be proper not to delay this Bill till the 14th of February, for there could be no reason for that but to delay it for a week or ten days till they had the other Bill before them. But when the hon. and learned Gentleman said he was not prepared to bring forward his Bill, that he did not mean to bring it forward at all, they might fairly conclude that the Bill, having the sanction of the Select Committee, and of the last Parliament, was the only one to which their attention was directed, and that the only question before the House was, whether they should sanction a Bill having for its principle the amendment of their Election Committees. His own opinion was, on the whole, that the best course they could adopt was, not to change altogether the nature of the tribunal before which questions regarding elections were brought. But he thought that some late decisions of Election Committees had given so much dissatisfaction, that they ought to endeavour to amend the tribunal, and see if, with those amendments. they could make such a tribunal as would give fair and competent decisions. He would not cite any instances in support of his position, but he believed it could not be denied that latterly the Election Committees had not produced an impression either on this House or the public that their decisions would be free from party bias. He had not himself attended to the election business of the last Parliament, but he had been told that on three or four occasions it happened, when three or four Members of the same party had their names read together on the balloting list, that a cheer had been heard from that side of the House to which they belonged, as if they had secured, not an impartial judge, but a ready partisan. He had been told so. He had been asked last year to adopt, with respect to these elections, the same course which was followed upon party questions, that of sending out notices. He declined doing so, as he said it was an improper practice. But then the argument used to him was that to which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had referred, "that the other side of the House did the same." He did not know that this was the practice on the other side; he did not know it to be the practice upon his own. But when there was so much jealousy about the names of adverse parties being on a Committee, it was a sufficient proof that the decisions of the Committees would be party decisions. A part, a great part of this feeling had arisen from the uncertainty of the law, but more especially from the uncertainty respecting the right of voting in Ireland. This had been the case with two or three Election Committees, and with the Longford Committee in particular, where, he believed, this was the chief point in dispute. Now, without the imputation of intentional perjury to any side, where there was a question of intricate law, and upon which some of the Irish judges differed from other Irish judges, and where there were other questions not legal, but intricate, party bias would influence the decisions upon them. In saying this, he was not imputing perjury to such a person; he was merely pointing out his incompetency to decide the question without further information. Let them consider whether this Bill tended to remedy the evils whose existence was acknowledged. He, for one, thought that it did provide some remedy. He had always thought it a very bad provision that a number of names should be taken and reduced by striking off to a small number. The right hon. Gentleman who brought in the last Bill on the subject, the 9th George 4th, so far acted on this view of it that he reduced the number of names to be drawn from forty-nine to thirty-three. Previous to that the constant custom was, to strike off a great number of names by each party which was then called—he did not know that the practice still continued —but then it was called '' knocking the brains out of a Committee." It was the very way to spoil the tribunal which they wished to have named. He had rather have a Committee chosen by that House, and composed of proper persons, than that each party should have the power of striking off names. He had rather himself, if he had to defend his seat, have a person of the opposite side of politics, who knew all the questions that could be discussed before him, than a person of his own side who was ignorant of them. He was quite sure that what was called perjury depended not in such cases upon the corruption, but the ignorance, of the party. When, then, an hon. Member was well informed upon different questions, he must see that without perjury he could not give an improper decision upon it; when, perhaps, another would give a vote against him in ignorance, upon a wrong principle, or upon a wrong interpretation of the law. With respect to another point, namely, the appointment of assessors to attend Committees, he thought that this likewise would tend to make Committees act with greater justice, and with more deliberation; but what he looked to above all in this Bill, and what he thought would tend to produce good effects both with respect to the Election Committees and the legislation on the subject was, that there should be a certain number of persons of fit qualification, who should form a permanent judicial body, ready to give their opinion, and the substance of their deliberations, whether to the Election Committees, or to the House of Commons, or whether in the course of registration upon any election which should call for it. But he did not wish at present, certainly, and without much farther consideration, and without seeing that the evils which the present system produced were without any other remedy, that that House should lose or part with the power of deciding these questions by Members chosen from amongst themselves. But he thought that the great evil which affected those who had seats in that House which were called in question, and which affected every voter who came before the revising barrister, and which, indeed, affected the whole country, was the uncertainty that prevailed at present. They could not allow all disputes arising out of elections to go into a court of law, and very properly, as he thought; because the judges who had to decide upon all questions relative to the properties and lives of her Majesty's subjects were now supposed to be actuated by no political bias; but if they referred to the constituted tribunal of the judges those questions of a political nature, whatever their decisions might be, they would be liable to imputations from one side or the other. As, then, they! could not part with the power themselves and give it to the judicial tribunals already constituted, the next thing that occurred to him as most likely to improve the present tribunals was, that there should be a certain number of men, of legal knowledge and judicial habits, who should form a permanent body to decide such questions as should come before them. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) said that there ought to be a Committee of the House of Commons appointed to declare what the law was upon these questions. Now he must say that he should not entertain much hope from such a Committee; because, if Committees now decided with a certain bias with respect to what the law was at present, he was quite surd that a Committee would decide with a bias when it had to interpret what the law should be in future. They had found this already with respect to the registration bills, and therefore he thought that where a doubtful point arose, and a Committee had to clear that doubt, the Members would say to themselves, "as we have to clear this doubt in future, let us not proceed according to our notions of what the practice should be, but let the doubt be cleared in a manner favourable to our own party." That would also be the opinion of the other party, and they would therefore have the same difficulty in passing a bill through the House which should obtain the assent of either party, as they had now. Therefore upon the whole he thought that there was no sufficient reason for not agreeing to the second reading of the bill. The objection which was stated at first, and which was a reasonable objection, namely, that the bill of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin stood in the way was now done away with by that hon. and learned Gentleman himself, and he thought, therefore, that if they wished to apply any corrective whatever to the evils which existed with respect Election Committees, they ought to sanction the second reading of this Bill.

said, that the question was not whether they would consent to any improvement of the present system by which Election Committees were consti- tuted; the question was not whether they would consent to the principle of this Bill; but the simple question was, whether on that day the House of Commons was sufficiently prepared, by mature deliberation on the subject, to affirm the important principle involved in the Bill. Were they, he would ask, a new Parliament, with 150 new Members, to be called upon a few days after the opening of Parliament, and only two days after the printing of the Bill, to enter into the consideration of that Bill, and the very important question to which it related? Of the 150 new Members, he would venture to say, that not one had yet had an opportunity of considering—nay, even of reading the Bill through. Why, the Bill was printed only on Saturday, and probably many Members did not get their copy until that (Monday) morning. He owned he had not read the Bill, until he came down to the House that evening. How many of the 150 new Members had read it? But he would not ask the question, for the Bill was so full of blunders, that even if it had been read, it was exceedingly difficult to be understood. He would take, as an instance, the proviso to the 16th clause of the Bill. It was there stated, that "if after reading the order of the day for taking any such petition into consideration, it shall be found that there are not 100 Members present, or that the number of thirty-three Members, not set aside or excused, cannot be completed, it shall and may be lawful for the House, if they think fit, to direct that the order shall be adjourned for any number of days," &c. Now, what had they to do with the thirty-three Members? [Mr. C. Butter: That is a blunder in the Bill.] Clearly so; but there were other parts of it equally confused. Here, then, was a Bill printed on Saturday, delivered on Monday, which was perfectly unintelligible, on account of the great hurry with which it was printed, which was admitted to be unintelligible by its Mover (Mr. C. Buller), as far as the number thirty-three is concerned. Let it be so; but under these circumstances they were called upon to affirm the principle of the Bill. Whatever they might do in this respect, let it be done after mature deliberation. They might depend upon it, that a contrary system would not be satisfactory to the people; and if the people entertained the impression that they had adopted this plan lightly, and without mature consideration, the consequences would be, that they would view it in the same light in which they were sup- posed to view the present system; and if they found that with this Bill, which was admitted to be incorrect, which had been printed only two days, and with 150 new Members in the House, they dared to affirm summarily the principle on the second reading, he would venture to affirm that the people would be disposed to view the future decisions of Election Committees with little confidence, and still less would they have confidence in the fitness of that House to legislate on the subject. But the real question—a question which had not been referred to—was this, did they mean to apply the new tribunal to existing election petitions? This was the real question which was involved in this measure. He found the following sentence introduced into the face of the Bill, and he should like to know whether it was another blunder? It was this:—"And be it enacted, that this act shall commence and take effect from and after the last day of the present Session of Parliament." Here was a distinct manifestation of the intention of the author of the Bill, that the Bill should not take effect until after the present Election Committees should be disposed of. If this were the case, where was the necessity of such precipitation? If it were really intended that all existing Election Committees should be appointed under the existing laws, unless for some extraordinary and special contingency, in respect of which the noble Lord opposite had reserved himself—if it were intended, that all election petitions now pending should be tried by pre-existing tribunals, where was the necessity of calling upon the House of Commons to assert that the present mode was so inconvenient that they must affirm the principle of a new tribunal within two days after the Bill had been printed and put into their hands? If, indeed, it was intended to supersede the existing tribunals, and to refer election petitions to some tribunal to be constituted—if that were the case, he could understand the reason for this precipitation and haste; but that motive was distinctly disclaimed by the Mover of the Bill, and believing that disclaimer to be sincere, he called upon the House to ask for some little time before they committed themselves to the principle of this measure. He gave credit to the hon. Mover of the Bill for good intentions; he believed, that the hon. Gentleman sincerely meant what the last clause of the Bill contained, viz., that the Bill should not take effect until after the present Session of Parliament, and that it should not, with respect to existing petitions, supersede the existing tribunals; but he begged to remind that hon. Gentleman, that if a majority of the House were so inclined, there was nothing so easy as, in passing through Committee on the Bill, to strike out the two lines at the end of it, and thus leave the election petitions to be tried by the tribunals constituted by the present Bill, and thereby to give it an ex post facto operation. They would, doubtless, have the assistance of the hon. Mover of the Bill in resisting such a proposition—a proposition fraught, as he considered it, with the grossest injustice. They might depend upon it, that whatever objections there might be to the existing tribunals, yet if the country understood that that House of Commons meant to postpone what had hitherto been considered their first and most positive duty on the assembling of a new Parliament, namely, to determine who of the sitting Members were duly elected, and who of the sitting Members retained their seats against the intention of the law in that House, the country would not approve of the House of Commons in thus giving the Act of Parliament an ex post facto operation. The main question, therefore, was whether or not the new tribunal was, in point of fact, to supersede the existing law, and to have the election petitions referred to it? On Wednesday, the 6th of December, the noble Lord opposite promised to deliver an opinion decisively upon this point. The noble Lord had given notice, that on Wednesday, the 6th of December, he would name the day in February, on which he would propose to take into consideration the election petitions. He admitted, that the noble Lord reserved himself in certain cases, neither the magnitude or occurrence of which he could foresee. They would know the opinion of Government on the 6th of December, and he, for one, would not consent to the second reading of this Bill until that declaration was made on the part of Government. Upon these two grounds, he was in favour of postponing the consideration of this Bill, until the noble Lord declared what course the Government proposed to pursue with respect to the election petitions, and also on the ground that the Bill required some additional consideration beyond the mere Sabbath-day. If he wanted any other reason, the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin was, he thought, decisive against proceeding with the Bill. The noble Lord opposite said, that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had cut away from his noble Friend (Lord Stanley) the whole ground upon which he objected to this Bill. As far as the hon. and learned Member for Dublin was personally concerned, as far as concerned his personal wishes and feelings in the matter, there could be no doubt but that that hon. and learned Member, greatly to his surprise, did waive his personal wishes and feelings; but, as far as the arguments and reasoning of the hon. and learned Member were concerned, they remained with undiminished force. That hon. and learned Gentleman had told the House, that he intended to bring under discussion the great question whether the persons directly interested, and who were, in fact, the parties, should be the judges or not? The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that it was a scandalous thing that summonses should be issued to procure attendance in that House, that it tended to degrade them in the public estimation, that it lowered the character of individual Members of the House, and that in their collective capacity the object was for party purposes to insure a large attendance. Now, if this objection had any weight, it would apply with just as much force to the present Bill as to the existing law. The hon. and learned Member for Dublin said, that the present system induced political parties to attend in order that the benches might be well filled when the names were drawn from the balloting box. If the hon. and learned Member felt the force of this objection, he ought to resist the second reading of this Bill, unless, indeed, he was making his consent to the second reading of the Bill a mere matter of form. If they consented to the second reading of the Bill it would imply that the House of Commons ought to retain the jurisdiction in election matters in their own hands. Now he would not hesitate to say, that if he thought that the House of Commons deserved the character which he had heard given to it by those who were the most anxious for a reform, he should have desired that the jurisdiction might be transferred from the House of Commons, and he would have concurred in the principle laid down by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. If the Members of that House were so influenced by party feeling that they were not fit to decide questions that arose upon election committees under the tribunals as they were at present constituted, they surely would not be fit to decide them under the tribunal proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard. That hon. and learned Member said that this was a bit by bit reform, that he was proceeding very gradually, that he wanted to have as little reform as possible. The hon. and learned Member for Dublin, on the other hand, denied that the House of Commons was a fit tribunal, or of a character sufficiently impartial to fit it for the consideration of these questions, and therefore he wished to have them transferred to another tribunal. He was surprised, after the position thus laid down by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin respecting the character of the House of Commons, and the inferences thus drawn by him, that he should consent to the second reading of this Bill. The objections which applied to the existing tribunals would apply equally to the tribunals constituted by the present Bill. He for one would not go quite the length of some hon. Gentlemen as to the great danger of parting with the constitutional right of deciding upon election petitions. If they could get an impartial tribunal of five or seven persons, not directly interested in the election petitions, he was convinced that the House of Commons would lose nothing by the transference of the power of deciding in such cases to a body so constituted. The great difficulty was as to the mode of selection. It must be admitted that they must be selected by some body If it were left to the Government it would be open to strong objections, the great objection being the difficulty of constituting an impartial and a satisfactory tribunal. To the appointment of assessors by the Speaker he would decidedly object. He could not conceive any proposition tending more to destroy the impartial character of the chair. The Speaker of the House of Commons, whose election for his new duty would doubtless depend upon party, would, on the first meeting of Parliament, have to propose to the House the names of three Members with a salary of 2,000l., and these persons were to act in respect of political matters of the utmost importance to parties. He was afraid that it would be impossible for any Speaker, with the best intentions, to make a selection which would be satisfactory to all parties. It would be placing a Speaker of a new Parliament in a most unpleasant situation. There would, in the election of a Speaker, be either a complete acquiescence or a contest. If there was a contest, what a situation would it place the Speaker in? It could not be expected that the Government, who selected the Speaker, would not labour under the impression that they were bound to support the nominations of their own Speaker. It might be easily foreseen that it was probable that a Government might say to itself "These men bear a most excellent character, the Speaker has named them as men eminently qualified for the office, and it will be degrading to them unless we support their nomination." The other party would say, "That may be all right; but we should have the appointment, if not of two out of the three, at least of one of them." Would this be a fit situation to place the Speaker in? Was it proper that on taking the chair on the first meeting of Parliament he was to have the nomination of parties possessing a character the most important, not merely as respected political, but party questions? He could not affirm this principle of the bill. It appeared to him to be a very grave question, and he would much rather not give his opinion decisively upon these points. He would also much rather reserve to himself a fair opportunity for a full consideration relative to his views of the challenges proposed to be allowed. It was possible that the right of challenge, where five challenges were made, would be to insure the knocking out the brains of the Committee. Now he was not sure that it would not lead to a directly opposite result. Opposing parties, on hearing a certain number of names called, might be in doubt whether or not they should exhaust their challenges by objecting to the names called, or whether they should not wait for a better challenge. This would at once be the introduction of the element of chance into the new tribunal. The objection to the present system was, that it was influenced by party motives, and that the Members were selected by chance; but it was evident that the same objection applied to the new tribunal. Parties would, as they did now, assemble in great strength on each side, and chance would determine the tribunal as it did now; and he was not at all certain whether it would give a greater degree of satisfaction. It appeared to him that chance would exercise as much influence over the new tribunal as over the old. He would be very sorry, however, to give a decisive opinion upon this point. He should wish to satisfy himself on these points. He had never read the bill till he came into the House. The noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) said that the bill had passed through the second reading last Session. Was that quite fair? He admitted that it did pass the second reading, but it was distinctly understood that the bill should not pass into a law. [No, no!] He was sure that was the general impression. ["No, no!" from Lord Howick."] He thought that an objection was taken by the Attorney-General to proceeding further with the bill. ["No!" from the Attorney-General.] He could not refer to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman—he trusted to memory, and that was his impression. If, then, there was a general feeling on the part of the House that the present tribunal was so unsatisfactory that it required amendment, but that those amendments should be applied after mature consideration—if the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard really desired that they should not look upon this question as a party measure, but that it should be gravely and deliberately discussed; above all, if hon. Gentlemen wished that this question should receive a calm consideration, if they wished maturely to consider the transferring of their power, as far as their jurisdiction was concerned, to somebody impartially selected, with the consent of the House of Commons, he hoped they would all concur in deferring the second reading of this bill. He asked the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard himself to postpone the bill until the House had an opportunity of giving it further consideration. Above all, he hoped those Members of the House of Commons who were now called upon to exercise their functions for the first time, would refuse to pledge themselves to affirm the principle of this bill on that night, and that, on the contrary, they would support the proposition of his noble Friend, which was not that the present system should not be amended, not that the bill should be rejected, but merely that there should be a delay of two months interposed, in order that public attention having been drawn to the subject during the recess, old Members and new Members might be enabled to apply themselves to the subject with more caution and deliberation, thus affording a better prospect of their arriving at a conclusion upon principles satisfactory to themselves and the country.

must say, that he did not think the reasons assigned by the right hon. Baronet for the proposed delay, appeared to him at all satisfactory. He quite agreed with the right hon. Baronet, that it was most desirable, that whatever the House did upon this subject, should be done with calmness and with an absence of all party feeling. The object the Bill had in view was, to relieve the House from an unfavourable impression existing in the public mind with repect to the votes of that House, in which, therefore, they had all a common interest. It appeared to him impossible to deny, that the present mode of deciding upon election petitions, was not such as was satisfactory to that House or to the country, therefore, as far as they were called upon by reading this Bill a second time to affirm the principle that some change should be made, he, for one, was perfectly prepared to affirm that principle, and he called upon the House to declare itself of the same opinion. The principle involved in the second reading of the Bill was, that some change was desirable, and that it was expedient, in the first place, to attempt to make such a change as should reserve, as far as possible, to the House of Commons itself jurisdiction over those questions. If he understood the right hon. Baronet correctly, he thought the right hon. Baronet seemed not altogether indisposed to the constitution of some tribunal different from the House of Commons to which these questions should be referred. He thought, however, that the House ought to pause before they proceeded to that extent. He thought, that they ought to satisfy themselves that it was not possible, by any modification of the present mode, to decide those matters themselves so as to attain a mode of settling them, which would be satisfactory to themselves and to the public. He was, therefore, prepared in the second place, to affirm the other principle which the second reading of the Bill carried with it, namely, that they ought in preference to endeavour to keep these questions within their own jurisdiction. The right hon. Baronet asked the House, why could they not postpone the second reading of the Bill for two months, till after the recess? The reason was obvious; they had now no business in the House; they had now no business before them to prevent the House from giving their full attention to this subject. If, indeed, they postponed it till after Christmas, other matters of pressing importance would come before them, so that it would be impossible for them to give this subject the same attention which they were now enabled to give it. With regard, therefore, to the principles which they were called upon to affirm by reading the Bill a second time, and also with regard to convenience as to the question of time, he thought the House would do well to proceed to the second reading of the Bill.

said, that it appeared to him objectionable to read this Bill a second time on the present occasion, and he hoped he should have the votes of many hon. Members on the other side of the House against such hasty legislation. If there was a necessity for a new tribunal, how was it that it did not show itself till now? In 1832 it was not thought necessary to reform the existing tribunal, though the numbers in the House were as three to one. At that time no objection was found to the formation of Election Committees. In 1835, there appeared to exist no necessity for change; indeed the feeling seemed only to commence late in the last Session. It appeared to him that the constitution of the present Parliament afforded anything but a reason for change. In the present Parliament, parties were so fairly divided that there was a much better chance of obtaining a fairly selected Committee. Another reason for not proceeding with the second reading of the Bill was, that it was not intended to come into operation with respect to those elections which had taken place. It could not be intended that this Bill should have a retrospective effect; for he was sure that so atrocious an injustice would never be seriously perpetrated by the House of Commons, or permitted by the country. The sanctioning the second reading of this Bill would be casting discredit on the tribunal before which, at least, all existing election petitions would be tried; and for this reason, if there were no other, he thought the second reading ought to be postponed.

said, he had a notice of motion on the books, "for a Select Committee to inquire into the administration of the medical department of the parochial unions which have been formed under the provisions of the Poor-law Amendment Act;" but, as he was anxious not to prejudge the inquiry about to be instituted, he would not press the point; he hoped, however, that the noble Lord would instruct the Committee to devote their earliest attention to that very important branch of their inquiry.

said, he could hardly undertake to move such an instruction now. The operation of the system of medical relief to the poor was a subject which must necessarily come under the consideration of the Committee; but, at the same time, he thought that it was a subject so intimately connected with the other features of the case that it could hardly be separated into a distinct subject for inquiry. He would only add, that he should be ready at all times to inquire into any facts connected with the medical department of the Act which the hon. Member or any other Gentleman might be inclined to submit to him; and then, if the hon. Member was not satisfied, he could resort to his original proposition, and move an instruction to the Committee on the subject.

wished to draw the noble Lord's attention to a point connected with the operation of the poor relief upon which great feeling was expressed, particularly in the county of Sussex. There were there, as in all parts of the country, a great number of labourers who had married under the old system of Poor-laws, and had families of children which they were unable to maintain, and it was earnestly desired by them that the board of guardians should have the power to admit some of their children into the house. This was a matter in which he thought it was absolutely necessary something should be done before the Committee terminated its inquiry.

did not precisely see the range to which the noble Lord proposed that the inquiry of the Committee should extend. On the appointment of the Committee last year, the noble Lord stated, that he wished the inquiry to be as wide a one as possible; but, on the present occasion, he saw that the words of the motion limited the inquiry to "the distribution of relief to the poor under the orders of the Commissioners." Now, as the relief of the poor under the Commissioners was closely connected with the workhouse system, and unions were extending all over the country, he wished to know whether the noble Lord proposed that the inquiry should extend to the operation of the workhouse system? A very strong feeling prevailed throughout the country against the kind of relief administered in these buildings, and against the further erection of them, many of which, he must say, looked more like prisons than the abodes of the aged and infirm.

said, that as considerable objections were felt in the north of England, and in his own neighbourhood in particular, to the introduction of the measure in question into that part of the kingdom, be could not allow the present opportunity to escape without making a few observations upon it. It was against the workhouse system that the objections to which he referred were generally directed in the north; and he was sure that many persons were anxious for the success of the greater portion of the Bill, provided its more obnoxious provisions were got rid of. It was impossible not to see that many parts of the Poor-law Amendment Act were absolutely penal—and although he was willing to give the Commissioners credit for having met and checked the great evil of able-bodied labourers becoming burthens on the public, yet there was sufficient mischief in the measure to allow the people in the north of England to pause before they admitted it into their part of the country. Me was willing to admit that the Bill had, in many places, been carried into effect with much discretion and consideration; but, as one objection to it in the north, he might mention the fact that it would compel persons connected with its execution very constantly to go long distances over a rough and difficult part of the country, which guardians could not be expected to do without some sort of compensation. As to the principle of the Bill, it was much in accordance with the old law as it existed in the northern counties, and he was prepared to show that many of the Unions about to be formed there, particularly in Durham and Northumberland, were not necessary. The hon. Gentleman then quoted from certain returns in his possession connected with the northern districts, from which it appeared that, in the Unions already formed there, the number of those who received out-door relief was infinitely greater than of those who were relieved within the workhouses. The same relief was, in fact, administered under the new system as under the old—and, under such circumstances, where was the necessity for covering that part of the country with workhouses? Again, the strongest impressions had prevailed upon the subject of the bastardy clause. In the town of Sunderland the parochial allowance of two hundred children had been suddenly stopped—and strong and dark rumours were afloat of children having been found dead. The Bill had led to the most cruel privations, and in many instances to starvation. Under these circumstances, then, he did hope that its more mischievous clauses would be brought effectively under the investigation of the Committee, for, although the workhouse system had been cried up as having remedied the evil of able-bodied labourers receiving parochial relief, yet it should not be forgotten that a very great demand for labour had existed at the time the Bill came into operation, and had stepped in to the very timely assistance of the Commissioners, leaving it still to be determined whether the workhouse system had been of such great benefit as it was stated to have been. The old law had been carried into effect in many parts in a manner generally satisfactory to the public, and he had himself heard numerous individuals testify to its beneficial effects. He did hope, therefore, that the objections to which he had alluded would be brought under the notice of the Committee, and that that Committee would be an unbiassed and impartial one.

had heard with regret the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, particularly at a time when so much excitement prevailed in the country upon the subject of the Poor-law Amendment Act—and he rose to allude to statements, of the truth of which, in his opinion, the hon. Gentleman ought not to leave the House without being called upon to give some more satisfactory proof. The hon. Gentleman had stated that in the town of Sunderland alone two hundred children had been suddenly deprived of parochial allowance, and that strong and dark rumours were afloat that several had been found dead. Now, he was at a loss to divine what the hon. Gentleman meant, unless he intended to infer that these children had been deserted by their parents. But let him ask the hon. Gentleman whether he, as a magistrate, had made those inquiries into the truth of these statements which his duty and position demanded of him—or had he made them for the purpose of throwing discredit on the Act? He was sure that the Government would be highly pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman's explanation, and he could assure him—and he was borne out in the fact by returns in his possession—that, with respect to the bastardy clauses, there was no part of the Bill which had been attended with such satisfactory results as the changes which related to that particular subject. He considered the hon. Gentleman was bound to make out a better case than he had done.

had a paper in his possession relating to the statements he had made, and which had been communicated to him by an individual in whom he placed the most implicit confidence. If he were to name him, which he certainly should not do unless under an order from the Chair, he was convinced there were very many Gentlemen who would come forward and corroborate his statements. With respect to what he had said in connection with the bastardy clauses, the rumours he had referred to had most certainly prevailed, and had appeared in the public papers. With respect to his duty as a magistrate, he must inform the hon. Gentleman that he was not a magistrate of the county of Northumberland, though he was of Durham, or he should most certainly have attended most particularly to the working of those clauses of the Poor-law Act which he regretted had been the cause of so much dissatisfaction.

asked the hon. Gentleman whether he could specify when and where one single case of a child having been found dead had occurred?

replied, that he could not at that moment specify a particular case—but he could show the hon. Member papers in which the rumours had publicly appeared.

stated, that he knew an instance which was by no means a solitary one, of an individual who had himself been a rate-payer for forty years, and who had now arrived at a time of life when, owing to his inability to work, he had nothing to look forward to but parochial relief, and who stated that he contemplated a residence in the workhouse with horror.

regretted, that the Government were not prepared to modify these clauses, as they had the effect of preventing the Bill in many places from being carried into execution. The regulations were dif- ferent in almost every union, and he could only attribute this to a wish on the pàrt of Government to have an opportunity of talking of their reduction of the Poor-rates. He must say that he now considered an uniformity of system was quite hopeless. He fully believed this to be the fact. He knew many instances in which the guardians had applied to the Commissioners to alter the regulations, but in vain; but he did not see how the Government could refuse to give a special power to the Guardians to judge of the peculiar wants of the people in particular districts. As far as his own county was concerned, he felt himself compelled to impress upon the noble Lord (John Russell) the necessity, before the winter set in, of giving the Commissioners and Guardians a discretionary power in administering the provisions of the Act.

said, that his constituents considered it a very cruel case to separate those who were bound together in the bonds of affection when in distress, and hoped the inquiry would be full and impartial. That he was sure would please the Commissioners too, for they only performed their duty.

said, that when he considered the power which the manufacturers in the large towns had of turning great numbers of workmen out of employment, and that those persons would have no other places to go to but these prisons of workhouses, he did think that the oppressive orders of the Commissioners would produce the greatest dissatisfaction in the country. He thought that employment, instead of being augmented, was reduced by this measure. [No, no!] Let those who cried "No" prove their assertions. The Bill, he was persuaded, would never do in the manufacturing districts.

said, that the Act had been the most useful and beneficial to which he had ever given his support. The hon. Gentleman opposite might perhaps have lost a few votes through it, but if he had lost twelve elections by it, he would never have refused to speak well of an honest measure—Supported as it had been by so many hon. names on both sides of the House. He perfectly remembered the advice which the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, gave to an hon. Gentleman on that side of the House on a former occasion. The hon. Gentleman had brought in a Bill of which the right hon. Baronet disapproved, and in his observations on that measure the right hon. Baronet said, that if, instead of introducing useless measures, the younger Members of that House would take up the report of the Committee on the Poor-law, and go through it carefully, and with a view to discover a remedy for the grievances and crying abuses of these laws, they would not only be doing that which would be useful, but in fact conferring an important benefit on their country. He always paid the deepest attention to whatever fell from the right hon. Baronet, being anxious to learn from his acknowledged wisdom and experience, and he had accordingly adopted his suggestion. No subject, he felt convinced from his inquiries, could be taken up by hon. Gentlemen with greater advantage to the community at large, and for this reason he was most anxious that the fullest and most extensive investigation as to the operation of the Poor-laws should take place. The hon. and gallant Officer, the Member for Oldham, had complained that no benefit had arisen to the labouring classes from the Poor-law Amendment Act, but the hon. Gentleman on the contrary, was prepared to contend that not only the labouring, but every other class, had been materially benefitted by that measure. While it had operated beneficially as respected the labouring classes, it had materially raised the character of the farmer. It bound up their interests with those of the working classes, and it had even done more—it had rendered the country gentlemen more useful and valuable members of society. As regarded the labouring classes, he thought it could not be denied that it had not only benefitted them in a pecuniary point of view, but tended materially to elevate their character. This he could assert from personal knowledge of the state of the poor in the neighbourhood in which he resided, and therefore it was, that he was desirous the country generally should have the benefit which had accrued in his own part of the country from these laws.

was sorry to hear such speeches as had been delivered by hon. Gentlemen on either side of the House on this subject that night. He did not suppose that their object was to create mischief, but they must permit him to say, that they evidently could not intend by what they stated to do any benefit to the country. He was astonished to hear many of the statements which hon. Gentlemen had made. An hon. Member opposite had asserted that the effect of the new Poor-laws was to lessen rather than increase the wages of the labouring poor, and that statement had surprised him, because he knew that the practical operation of the system furnished conclusive evidence to the contrary. On inquiry he believed it would be found that there were few parishes in which the wages of able-bodied labourers were lower than the wages given in parishes generally, and the reason was obvious. If a labouring man, his wife and family, were taken into the workhouse, they could not be maintained for less than a guinea a week, and this was a punishment so severe on the rate-payers that to be relieved from such a burthen as a guinea a-week they would gladly pay 8s. rather than 7s. as wages to those whom they employed. He was not a Member of the Committee of last year, and he had hoped that some hon. Gentleman who was—that the hon. Gentleman, the Member for Kilkenny for example—would have got up and stated some of the facts which had appeared in evidence before the Committee. Day after day, week after week, and hour after hour, they heard of some dreadful case of oppression, and therefore it was only right the public mind should be set at rest with respect to such rumours. He believed them to be unfounded. He had differed from the hon. Gentleman the late Member for Berkshire (Mr. Walter) on this subject, and he had not hesitated to say, that it was most unjust to depreciate a whole system because of the existence of a few isolated abuses. He recollected having asked that hon. Gentleman how many unions he had visited and what was his answer? Why, he said that although he had gone to the work-house of one only three times he condemned the whole system beyond everything. He was curious to ascertain whether or not the objections of the hon. Gentleman to the new Poor-laws were well founded, and had therefore within the last ten days inspected, in company with a noble Lord to whom the neighbourhood was much indebted, the work-houses of the Wokingham union, in Berkshire. Nothing could possibly be better or more perfectly managed, and this the Noble Lord to whom he alluded readily admitted, although he declined to write his name in the book kept for registering the opinions of those magistrates and others who visited the workhouse as to the system adopted in it, on the ground that, having been hostile to the alteration, he could not regard it otherwise than with enmity. This was a union containing a population of 23,000 inhabitants, and not only here, but in every other union with which he was acquainted, he found that the farmers were most regular in their attendance at the board of guardians. He considered this a great advantage. With respect to medical relief, he had no doubt that this was a subject which would be taken into consideration by the Committee whenever they met. He was glad that the plan suggested in reference to medical relief last year had not been adopted, and he felt convinced that if any error existed in that branch of the administration of the Poor-laws it would speedily be rectified. At present he thought hon. Gentlemen ought to abstain from pronouncing any censure on the system.

wished to call the attention of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the House to the practice which the Poor-law Commissioners had adopted of forming very large unions. He attended the board of guardians of the union in the neighbourhood in which he resided, and by the desire not of the board of Guardians but of the magistrate he had represented to the Commissioners the great inconvenience of forming such large unions. He regretted to say that they had not attended to his recommendation. The union to which he alluded, which was in the northern part of the county of Lincoln, extended to a distance of from eighteen to twenty miles from the town in which the work-house was situated, and it was consequently utterly impossible that the aged or infirm could go such a distance to seek relief. Neither could it be expected that the guardians could be punctual in their attendance at the meetings of the board under such circumstances. He had also another objection to such large unions, and that was, that where there were a great number of guardians it was impossible that matters could be deliberated upon without party feelings. This was a serious evil, and while it existed, and it must exist in all large unions, it would be impossible to go on with the business in a manner satisfactory to any party. He begged it to be understood that he had no wish whatever to throw impediments in the way of the working of the new system. On the contrary, he was the vice-president of one of the district boards of the union in which he resided, and he was bound to declare that the system worked well in that union. He had only risen to impress upon the noble Lord and the House the inexpedience whenever it could be avoided of forming large unions.

thought, the alarms which had been raised as to the operation of the new Poor-laws were without foundation in truth, and this had been proved to be the fact with respect to the representations which had been made of the working of the system in the south. The result of the inquiry by the Committee of last year had shown that the whole of the charges which had been brought against the Commissioners and guardians had broken down, but still he was glad that the Committee was to be re-appointed, because he was persuaded that any investigation that might take place, would tend to convince the public that the new Poor-laws would operate as advantageously in the north as they had done in the south. The sooner the existing prejudices against the system were removed the better, because they must all be aware that in many parts of the country those prejudices were likely to break out into open outrage. He had not supported the new Poor-law Bill, but from the experience he had of its working, he did not hesitate to say that it would be as advantageous to the north as it had been to the south, although, perhaps, less abuse existed under the old system in the former than in the latter part of the country. Whether the new Poor-laws operated well or ill was a fact which the Committee could easily be able to ascertain, and for his part he was most anxious that they should investigate and probe into the whole system, and every part of it. l'>y this means he was satisfied that the unfounded prejudices which were entertained upon the subject would be removed, and a proper remedy applied to any error or evil which might be proved to exist. He thought that hon. Members ought to observe great caution when they spoke on a subject so inflammable. This ought not to be dealt with as a party question, and he must be permitted to express the surprise which he felt at hearing hon. Gentlemen assert that no benefit had resulted to the poor from the new Poor-laws. If they had read the evidence taken before the Committee of last year, they would have found that the system had conferred great and substantial advantage on the poor; but while he said this he would not deny that abuses might exist, which called for and ought to be remedied. The hon. Member for Fins-bury had very properly brought forward the subject of medical relief, and there were other branches with respect to which, he had no doubt, inquiry would elicit im- portant facts, and enable the Commissioners to get rid of all those minor abuses which constituted the subject of complaint. There were reforms which might be called for—which might be necessary—but to effect them there was no occasion whatever for inflammatory speeches. He was now willing to admit, that many important benefits had been derived from the operation of the new Poor-laws, and he would not say so if he were not convinced of it, having been one of those who voted against the Bill. Had he not been convinced of this he would have retained his former opinion; but, knowing that opinion was erroneous, he did no more than his duty in the avowal which he made, that the view which he had taken was wrong. He was satisfied, that if the new Poor-laws were administered in the same spirit as they were enacted, most essential advantages would result from them, not only to the poor, but to the rich; and therefore it was that he felt surprised at the statement of the hon. and gallant Member for Old-ham, that no benefit had accrued to the labouring classes from their operation. The hon. and gallant Member could not have read the evidence taken before the Committee, or he never would have made such an assertion.

said, there was no evidence in the report of the Committee which went to show, that the labouring classes had admitted that they had been benefited by the alteration of the Poor-laws.

was exceedingly glad that the Committee was to be revived, because he considered the inquiry of last year an imperfect one. He hoped that the whole subject would now undergo investigation, and that no one question connected with it would be left untouched.

said, that as the hon. Gentleman, the Member for North Lincolnshire, had alluded to the working of the new Poor-laws in the union with which he was connected, he (Mr. White) begged to say that in the Sunderland union, a union that embraced a population of 50,000, the system had also operated most beneficially to the poor. He was the president of the board of guardians of the Sunderland union, and therefore he had an opportunity of seeing how the Act worked, and from his experience he was enabled to assure the House that the alteration did confer great advantage on the great body of the poor. He had reason to know that money was given out of doors; and as to the workhouse of the union, no establishment of the kind, he verily believed, could be better or more admirably conducted. He admitted that there was a feeling against the Poor-law Bill at Sunderland, but be denied that it prevailed to any thing like the extent that had been asserted. When he canvassed the borough he represented, he was known to be the chairman of the board of guardians of the Sunderland Poor-law union. He was asked whether he was in favour of the new Poor-law, and notwithstanding he uniformly declared himself in the affirmative, he had no reason to regret his avowal. With such sentiments he could not feel otherwise than glad at the re-appointment of the Committee, because he was most anxious that if there were any harsh features in the new law they should be softened, but then he trusted that this would be done in a proper and becoming manner.

was very glad that he had given way to the hon. Member for Sunderland, not only because he was able to speak with confidence of the working of the new Poor-law Act from his observation of it as chairman of the board of guardians of a most extensive union, but also as he afforded a complete reply to the observations of the hon. Member for North Durham, as to the dark rumours that prevailed in Sunderland, and as to the effect that they had had on the minds of the people of that place; for if such a state of things did prevail, that hon. Gentleman was more likely to lose his election as a well-known defender of the new Poor-law than any other Gentleman.

The hon. Member for Sunderland had not contradicted any of his statements.

was prepared to contend that the statement of the hon. Member was virtually contradicted by the observations of the hon. Member for Sunderland; for the hon. Gentleman, when he alluded to what he was pleased to call the dark rumours afloat respecting the new Poor-law, directly alluded to the union of Sunderland. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last, who was chairman of that board of guardians, told the electors who returned him that he would stand by the principles of the law, and, not withstanding the rumours which the hon. Member opposite alleged to prevail, the hon. Gentleman was returned. He would advise the hon. Member to pay as little attention as he did himself to such rumours, unless he could have them from some creditable source; and he hoped the hon. Gentleman would, as a Member of the Committee which was about to be appointed, take care to examine into the facts which would be adduced before it, and not as he had stated, take assertions without inquiring into their truth from the public prints, and which the hon. Gentleman seemed to consider as absolute and sufficient authority on this subject. He should, however, be glad to show that the mere publication of such statements was not to be taken as authority on the subject. As a proof of this he would refer to what had been stated to a large assembly in the neighbourhood of Huddersfield, and which had been taken from the same source as that upon which the hon. Member relied. It was asserted that a man who was in one of the union workhouses in Cambridgeshire asked leave to go out, as he might obtain employment, and on doing so he requested that his wife might be allowed to accompany him. Upon his making this request he was told that his wife was dead, and had been buried a fortnight. Such a statement as this, made at a large public meeting, and going forth uncontradicted, no doubt was calculated to have a great influence on the minds of the multitude. The Poor-law Commissioners, on inquiry being made of them as to the truth of the case, stated that they altogether disbelieved the case, but they would take care that an investigation should take place. They immediately sent to all the unions in the county of Cambridge, inquiring whether any such occurrence had happened; and the reply from one and all of the unions was, that nothing of the kind had taken place in that neighbourhood, and that it was also added that it was not possible that anything of the kind could have occurred without its being known. Application was then made to the persons who had put forward the original statement to give the names of the persons from whence they had learnt it, that further inquiry might be made. On the name of the person who had furnished the statement being given, inquiry was made of him as to his authority; and he stated, in reply, that he had heard it from one of two gentlemen with whom he was accidentally in company, and who were strangers to him, but that they did not say that it occurred in the county of Cambridge, nor indeed did they name any particular place. He was then asked whether he could tell the name of the party who had told him, or where he was to be found; and he replied that he could not tell anything further about it, as he had heard the statement from some person he had never seen before, and whose name he did not know. Thus, then, it was put forth, without hesitation, and on the authority of a person whose name was not even known, that this circumstance took place in some union workhouse somewhere in the country, and it would have been taken for granted had not the Commissioners directed inquiries to be made into the subject. Thus, then, this pretended statement of facts, so much calculated to excite the public mind, was put forth unhesitatingly at a large public meeting. The hon. and gallant Member for Breconshire asked, whether it was intended to make inquiry into the management of workhouses. He would, in reply, observe that they would proceed as they did last year to inquire into this as well as other parts of the subject, and that, no doubt, the management of workhouses, as well as other matters under the control of the Commissioners, was a proper subject of inquiry. He had used the words of the motion which he proposed last year for the same reason, namely, that he did not wish it to be supposed that the majority of that House were anxious for inquiry merely with the view of abrogating the law, but that it should inquire into the operation of the Poor-law Amendment Act under the control of the Commissioners, and especially into the administration of the relief of the poor under the orders and regulations issued by them. The House would see that by his motion all that had been done under the administration of the law could be inquired into. He had thought that the nature of the inquiry that took place last year, as well as the nature of the proposition that he then made, showed that there was no objection to the most extensive and searching investigation. At the same time he thought that the great principle of the Poor-law should always be kept in view, namely, that a clear and obvious difference should be made between the allowance made to the destitute and the wages paid to able-bodied labourers. He believed that no one would deny that the most prevalent abuse of the old system throughout the country was the mixing up the payment of the wages of labourers with the amount of the relief given to the destitute poor. The hon. and gallant Member for Oldham said that the labourers did not acknowledge that they had received any benefit from the operation of the New Poor Law. He did not mean to assert that any labourers had substantially stated they had obtained benefits from the new law, but still he thought that the House had conclusive evidence that the labouring classes had been materially benefited, both as regarded their condition and their character and conduct by the working of the new law. As a proof of this he would mention some, certainly not of the most striking, facts on this point, which came out in evidence upon the Committee last year. The cases to which he alluded were those in which he had himself put questions to the witnesses, and elicited what he was about to state. In one of these cases under the old law there were two labourers in a parish; one of them was an idle, dissolute person, and was far from being an able workman, while the other was a skilful and industrious labourer; and it was stated that the idle labourer, by doing merely nominal work on the roads, received more from the parish than the industrious and skilful labourer, who worked extremely hard, did from his employer. It was stated in evidence that considerable irritation was excited in the mind of the good and steady workmen that he did not earn so much as the idle and dissolute labourer. The case had been reversed since the New Poor Law Bill came into operation; and the labourer, who was less skilful and industrious received a lower scale of wages. He would ask whether this was not a good lesson for the labourers of this country, that they should know that they would be rewarded for their exertions in proportion to their skill, steadiness, and industry? In another case that came before the Committee last Session, of two men who belonged to a benefit society, and who had saved money out of the proceeds of their industry, they, however, found out that in consequence of the operation of the allowance system, they were not better off than the labourers who were improvident and idle, and who spent all their money in the beer-shops. The consequence not only was, that these men ceased to save, but they drew out all the money that they had saved, and went to the beer-shops and expended it in dissipation. Since the change of the law, however, had taken place these men had found the benefit of belonging to the benefit society, and of saving from the produce of their labour. This was another proof that under the new law habits of frugality and industry had been encouraged instead of encouragement being held out to dissipation. Therefore, when he was talking of the beneficial operation of the new law, he did not so much allude to the four millions of money that had been saved to the rate-payers as to the improvement that had been effected in the character of the labouring classes, by showing that a sufficient reward was given in the wages paid to the industrious, and also that that which was formerly given to the idle, should be given to the steady and industrious. The question then was, what was the distinction that they wished to draw between the condition of those who received wages for their industry and those who were in a state of destitution? The great abuse of the old system was, that they did not make a distinction between the condition of the labourer and the destitute person. Now, the Commissioners thought that the best test that could be applied to make the distinction was the workhouse; and, certainly, experience had proved that the workhouse was a very effective and good test between, on the one hand, the able-bodied labourer, and, on the other, the destitute pauper. The effect, also, of the application of this test in the south of England, had been to raise the rate of wages. One of the objects of their inquiry should be as to whether this should be made a general and universal test. He did not, however, mean that it was the best or most proper test in such a case as had been mentioned by the gallant General (Johnson), when by the stoppage of a number of mills and factories, hands were thrown out of work, and great temporary distress was experienced in a manufacturing district—he did not mean to say, that in such a case all the persons who were thus destitute thould be sent to a workhouse, or that he should prefer that mode of relief to any other that could be devised. In such cases, he thought some other test might be applied, provided it would give security that they did not give relief to those who did not require it. Provided that a sufficient test was afforded of the distinction between the destitute and the non-destitute, the object of the law was attained. An hon. Member had asked, whether relief might not be afforded to those who were married before the passing of the act, by taking a certain proportion of their children into the workhouse. In consequence of the applications that had been made on this subject, the matter had been referred to the Commissioners. The Assistant-Commissioners had made a number of reports on the subject, and the conclusion they all arrived at, coincided with the opinion he entertained on the subject. All the Commissioners agreed, that the practice of taking into the workhouse some of the children of those who were married before the passing of the Bill, would lead to the re-adoption of the allowance system, and was likely to lead us back to the old system, which had just been got rid of with so much difficulty, and which had entailed so much mischief on the country. The Commissioners, as he believed most truly, stated that it was not possible to make such a distinction between those who were married before the passing of the law and who had since been married; and even if it could, the distinction would not be kept up. But there were other objections of the strongest nature. The taking away the children from their parents, and rearing them in the workhouses, with a view of affording relief to the latter, would do more than anything else to destroy the ties which should ever exist between parents and children. This was his own impression on the subject, but it was a matter for the Committee to decide, on investigating the subject. An hon. Gentleman had alluded to the great size of the unions that had been formed by the Commissioners. The Commissioners entertained a most favourable opinion as to having unions of great size, as they thought that such unions were much better managed than smaller unions were. He, however, thought that this was a fit subject for further inquiry, as he admitted that there were strong objections to such extensive unions, as the guardians were necessarily brought from a distance before they could be assembled, and they, therefore, might not meet so often as was desirable; and, although the relieving-officers might be most exemplary in their conduct and behave extremely well, still it was desirable, for the sake of the poor, that they should be under the superintendence of the guardians, who should have every facility of meeting together. Under these circumstances, he thought that nothing but overwhelming necessity should render them favourable to the establishment of those large unions. He had said so much on this subject, so far as regarded the operation of the law. It was said by the hon. Member for Kent, that the subject was not properly investigated before the Committee last year. This, he was satisfied, did not arise from any want of attention on the part of the Members of the Committee, for he had never seen a Committee which paid more attention to a subject which it had to investigate than that did; but he must repeat now what he had occasion to say last year, that the time of the Committee was wasted by the great number of frivolous complaints which they had to investigate, and unnecessary witnesses which they had to examine. He hoped that, by a more judicious use of their time, the labours of the present Committee would be lightened, and the whole subject thoroughly investigated within a short time; and when they had seen how the law had operated in the agricultural districts in the south of England, and the great grievances that had been got rid of by it, they should proceed to consider in what manner the law should be carried into effect in the great manufacturing districts in the north of England. He was aware that the same abuses did not exist to nearly the same extent in the manufacturing districts as formerly prevailed in the agricultural districts. With reference, however, to the allowance system, it prevailed to a greater extent than was imagined, and the Assistant Commissioners almost uniformly found, that in a union composed of fifteen or sixteen parishes, there were three or four parishes in which there existed a tendency to this abuse. It was not necessary, therefore, to make such great changes in the manufacturing districts in the north, as it had been found absolutely necessary to effect in the south, before a remedy could be applied to the abuses that existed. The relief in the. unions in the north would be granted under the control of the board of guardians, rather than under the vestry. By this means, no particular or individual parish would be allowed to introduce the abuse which resulted from the allowance system, but the whole control and expenditure for the relief of the poor would be placed under the direction of the board of guardians for the union, which, in all cases, would be a much more enlightened body than the parochial vestry could be expected to be.