rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law with respect to clerical members of joint-stock companies. He felt it necessary to make this motion in consequence of a recent decision by the Court of Exchequer, to the effect, that it was unlawful for a clergyman in orders to be a member of any joint-stock company. It appeared that in the year 1817, a bill was introduced into the other House, and afterwards passed into a law, prohibiting all spiritual persons from engaging in any trade for gain or profit, and imposing a penalty upon any transgressor of the law. Not only was that penalty imposed, but it was enacted, that the acts of any company into which such spiritual persons had been introduced, were null and void. This was the present state of the law, and the result was, that if any clergyman became a proprietor of stock in any of those companies, not being charter companies, but joint-stock partnerships, that the companies in question would be incapacitated from recovering any just or lawful debt; and it might be pleaded in bar, to any attempt made to recover a debt from persons who had been engaged in business with them, that there was a clergyman a member of the company, and that he was engaged in trading, contrary to the intent and meaning of the 57th George 3rd, and consequently they were not competent to recover a just debt. He believed that that construction which had been put upon the act was quite unexpected. No person ever supposed that the prohibition justly imposed upon clergymen trading for the purpose of profit was to be a prohibition against their investing money in any species of stock—in Joint-stock companies like any other stock. He repeated, that the bill he asked leave to introduce was founded on proceedings that had lately taken place in the Court of Exchequer. In the case to which he alluded, the Northern and Central Bank having taken proceedings to recover payment of a bill of exchange from a person of the name of Franklin, Mr. Franklin pleaded that there were two clergymen belonging to the bank, and consequently that the bank was not entitled to recover; and the Court of Exchequer held that that plea was good. He therefore trusted the House would see it was absolutely necessary that the law should be altered. The construction put upon the existing act was, in point of fact, a surprise on the whole world; and, in his opinion, it rendered the bill which it was his intention to propose indispensable. The consequence of the decision of the Court of Exchequer would be, not only that penalty and loss would be inflicted on a clergyman who might be a member of a joint-stock company, but penalty and loss would be inflicted on every individual who might belong to such company. If, therefore, the case was important on the first hypothesis, it became doubly important on the second. It was not only on behalf of joint-stock banks that he asked leave to bring in this bill, but on behalf of all joint-stock partnerships; such as insurance companies, dock companies, canal companies, railway companies, &c, which would come within the decision of the learned judges of the Court of Exchequer. Were such a bill not to be introduced parties might be ruined to an extent scarcely calculable. To give the House some idea of what might be the result if the present state of the law were to be allowed to continue, he might state that there were no fewer than 108 joint-stock banks in operation, carrying on business through 474 branches, having a capital consisting of 2,776,000 shares, and a nominal capital of 66,000,000l. According to the decision of the Court of Exchequer, there was not perhaps one of those companies which would be able to recover a single debt. Having thus endeavoured to point out the inconvenience arising from the present state of things, he would now state the nature of the remedy which he proposed by the Bill in question. The House would see that the remedy must be retrospective, because if they were to proceed prospectively only, they would leave all the confusion incident to the existing state of the law, which he was anxious to remove. At present, if any man should become a shareholder, either by purchase or inheritance, though not a clergyman at the time, and should afterwards enter into holy orders, the whole proceedings connected with the establishment would be vitiated. They were, therefore, bound to legislate retrospectively in this matter. Was it to be allowed that a decision in the Court of Exchequer should vitiate all the proceedings and compacts of joint-stock banks up to the present hour? If so, a door would be opened to fraud, and considerable difficulty and derangement would be created in the commercial world. In bills of an analogous character, which had been introduced with a retrospective operation, it had been usual to introduce a saving clause with respect to existing suits; but he did not intend to introduce such a clause into this bill, as it would enable parties to defeat a contract by pleading a fact of which they were ignorant at the time the contract was entered into. He proposed to give validity to all contracts respecting joint-stock companies, not with- standing the fact of a clergyman being a member of them. But at the same time he meant to introduce a clause enabling courts of justice to award costs to parties who had instituted proceedings on the faith of the existing law. These were the main provisions of the bill for which he was about to move. Although the bill was to have a retrospective operation, he did not mean that it should be perpetual. All that he intended to propose was, that it should last until the end of the next Session of Parliament. For that proposition there was a precedent. The same course had been adopted with reference to a bill of an analogous character introduced in 1823. A bill was brought into the House to prevent actions being brought against clergymen for non-residence; but the operation of the bill was limited to a certain period. For the same reason he proposed that the bill for which he was about to move should not be perpetual, although it should give a remedy retrospective in its operation, only saving to the parties who might have brought actions the right of receiving costs, at the discretion of the court. Having endeavoured to explain the objects which he had in view, he should now move for leave to bring in a bill to legalise certain contracts which had been or might be entered into by certain parties or shareholders of joint-stock companies.

begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to introduce any clause to prevent clergymen from holding office as managers or directors of the companies in question?

replied, that there was no prohibitory clause in the bill at all. Its object was merely to give validity to certain contracts which had been made in ignorance of the law. If the House should deem it expedient to introduce such a provision as that adverted to by the hon. Member for Bridport, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be ready to discuss the question; but the present was not the proper time. The subject would be more properly introduced when the Church Bill, now on the table of the House, came under consideration. In that bill there were certain clauses to prevent clergymen from entering into trade; and, if it were considered expedient, a clause might be introduced to prevent them from becoming directors and managers of joint-stock companies. His hon. Friend must be aware that at the present moment clergymen were not prohibited from being members of chartered companies. If his hon. Friend would advert to the University Life Insurance Company he would find that the Archbishop of Canterbury was at its head, that the vice-presidents were all bishops, and that many of the directors were clergymen of the established church. Whatever the policy of the proposition adverted to by his hon. Friend might be, he could only repeat that the present was not the proper time for considering it.

hoped the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reflect a little before he gave effect to such an ex post facto bill as that which he proposed. Forty years ago all joint-stock companies were deemed a nuisance by law, and the shares were not transferable. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his present proposition.

did not deny, that there existed a necessity for such a measure as the present, but he thought that the House ought to be made acquainted with the engagement which the right hon. Gentleman had entered into in reference to this measure. He knew that many complaints were made of the manner in which the money voted by Parliament was applied—namely, to the salaries of masters, instead of building school-houses. But the greatest objection of all was that the means of diffusing education were afforded to one class of persons only in Scotland. He was for diffusing education as widely as possible, but he did not see why the schools should be under the control of any particular sect or class. He very much questioned the propriety of granting more money until the whole case was before the House; and he must say, that he had been much disappointed because the Government had not brought forward some plan of general education, not only with regard to Scotland, but to the whole kingdom. From returns which he held in his hand he found that in some of the parishes of the Highlands the most lamentable ignorance prevailed. In one of them, for instance, out of a population of 1,095 souls, only 172 children between the ages of five and fifteen were able to read, and ninety six only could write. He would not oppose any measure calculated to promote and extend education, but he hoped that some system would be adopted which should be unfettered by any exclusive principle, and that before the House agreed to any further grant of money, it would be put in possession of the whole of the facts of the case, both as to the plans to be adopted, and the persons in whose hands the money was to be placed.

was favourable to the measure, and trusted that a similar enactment would be extended to other parts of Scotland. The money was not so much wanted for the building of schoolhouses, or the building of masters' houses, as for the salary of the masters.

supported the Bill; for, notwithstanding all the energies of the Church, and the munificence of the people, it was quite clear that the aid of the Government was required for the establishment of a sufficient number of school-houses, to supply the wants of the country.

was grateful for the introduction of the present measure, and hoped that it might be extended.

was glad that the Bill was to be introduced, for he was sure it would lead to a general inquiry into and extension of the system of education in Scotland.

could not altogether approve of the outlines of the Bill which the right hon. Gentleman wished to introduce. It would have been more agreeable to him if it had been not only a measure to extend education in Scotland, but also to alter and improve the system of education in that country. He spoke of the system of parochial education, which required great improvement. The chief evil of the existing system was the appointment of schoolmasters for life. The former system was to choose schoolmasters for a limited time, and he would endeavour to restore that system. There was a time when Scotland was justly noted for the excellence of its parochial system of education, but it now deserved a very different character. Schools that were not under the parochial system were a great deal better managed than parochial schools at present. They had better teachers, and the scholars were much sooner brought to that degree of knowledge derivable from elementary education than could be required at the parochial schools; and he believed it would be found that the system upon which the masters were chosen, and under which the parochial schools were managed and endowed, was the root of the evil of which he was speaking. His wish was, that a Bill should be introduced for the extension of education throughout Scotland; and he should be still more happy if it were a Bill for the general improvement of the minds of the people throughout the kingdom.

did not think, that the present system of the parochial schools in Scotland had been characterised in too strong terms by the hon. Member for Greenock. It was of a most faulty nature; and in many places not only faulty but disgraceful. Many of the schoolmasters were incompetent to perform the duties of the responsible situations which they filled. It was not so much the want of money or of an improved system that was required, as of a better method of electing the masters. At present, men who were in every way qualified by their character, education, and religions principles, were rejected unless they belonged to the privileged sect of the Church of Scotland. He protested against an extension of the noxious principle of sectarianism which he apprehended would result from the present measure.

was sure that the people of Scotland would feel grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the proposition which he had now made, and particularly for the assurance that the public grants would be continued. With regard to the proposition made to alter the system of appointing schoolmasters for life, he trusted that the Government would consider well before they introduced any alterations in the system which now prevailed, which he believed gave great gratification to the people of Scotland.

could not hear the national Church of Scotland called a sectarian establishment without protesting against it. The Church of Scotland, like the Church of England, embraced the majority of the people within its pale, and he was sure that no Dissenter in Scotland would oppose the education of his children being conducted in the parochial schools, whatever they might do in England or in Ireland.

wished to call the attention of the House, and of the noble Lord the Secretary at War, to a subject which had made a considerable impression on the public mind—he meant the desertion of numbers of her Majesty's troops who were stationed in the Canadas. The inducements that offered themselves to the soldiers to desert, such as the cheapness of land and the price of labour, were certainly very great. He thought that another system of discipline ought to be followed up. Discipline was at present too much kept up by coercion. But if a little more kindness were shown, he was convinced that desertion would be lessened. At present, what inducement had the soldier to behave well? He received 6d. a-day, and his period of service was twenty-five or thirty years. The temptation to desert in the Canadas was, therefore, very great; but we might check it by a more extended system of rewards during the period of service, and at the expiration of it, by giving the soldier a greater bounty than he now obtained. As one mode of effecting the alteration which he proposed, a change in the present system of reliefs in our colonies would be desirable. Desertion took place in all our colonies, and the question was how to check it. According to the present system of reliefs, a regiment was ten years abroad before it came home; that was the average. At the expiration of two or three years after its return from abroad, having in the mean time recruited its ranks with young men, those men were sent out direct to North America, where there was not a sufficient inducement to young men, often of bad character, to remain in the service, and accordingly they deserted. Now, instead of this plan he would recommend the system of sending this young regiment to the Mediterranean for three years, then say to Corfu for three years, and again to Gibraltar for three years more. The time of their transit to North America might occupy another year, so that by the time they arrived there the public would have got ten years service out of these young men. Desertion then would not be so great an injury as if it had taken place before. At present, however, as we were sending out more troops, some immediate inducement would be required in order to check desertion among them, and this might be done at a very trifling expense. An active war was going on, which, however, he hoped was nearly concluded, and he would suggest that upon sending out more men, the Government should offer them as an inducement to remain in the service at the expiration of the war, either a grant of land to those who were disposed to take it, or a premium, which should be a little more than the expense of bringing them home again. The expense of conveying the troops home would be about 5l. per man, and the expense of keeping them before they could be disbanded would be about 5l. more. He would recommend, therefore, that a premium of fifty dollars should be offered to each man, or ten acres of ground at his option. We knew very well that the land in Canada was better than in the United States; we knew that the price of it was lower from 7s. to 10s. per acre, and that taxes were lighter. Besides interposing a check to desertion at this juncture, we should gain another point by settling our soldiers there. They would form a little balance to the French Canadians, and it would be admitted that 200 soldiers settling there every year were likely to check materially the influence of the French party in the colony. These were objects which might be accomplished at a small expense. It should be recollected that we must keep 5,000 men at least in that colony, and he thought that some measure of this kind should be offered to those men as a premium, in order to check desertion. He had often been astonished that the noble Lord at the head of the War Department had not given his attention to this subject. At this moment there were many regiments recruiting, and as the vacancies in the ranks were principally filled up from the sister kingdom, many young men might enlist who were anxious to emigrate and join their fathers and brothers who had settled in Canada, and it was certain, that very many young men had enlisted, he did not say for the express purpose of desertion, but under circumstances that were open to suspicion. Some such plan, then, as he had suggested was in his opinion necessary to retain them in the service. A change in the system of relief could not be brought to operate in this case of emergency. He therefore hoped the noble Lord, the Secretary at War, would take this subject into his consideration, and devise some check, if possible, for the desertion which prevailed. He would conclude by moving for a return of the number of deserters from her Majesty's troops stationed in the Canadas, between the years 1830 and 1837.

was afraid that it would not be easy for the Government to comply with the motion of the hon. and gallant Officer. He did not, however, see, even if the returns which the hon. and gallant Member called for could be laid before the House, in what manner the production of them could promote the object which the hon. and gallant Officer had in view, or assist the House in determining what kind of a preventive system should be adopted. He thought that a knowledge of the precise extent to which desertion had gone in former years could afford no certain data on which to ground measures for its repression, and he apprehended that very considerable inconvenience must result to the public service, if it became publicly known how many persons had deserted from her Majesty's troops in a given period. He, therefore, hoped that the House would concur with the Government in refusing to comply with the call which the hon. and gallant Officer had made for the production of these returns. At the same time, he could assure the hon. and gallant Member that the subject to which the hon. Member had called his attention had not escaped the notice either of himself or of those who had preceded him in the War-office. A very long correspondence had taken place between the War-office and the military authorities in Canada, as to the discovery of means for checking the crime of desertion, which had prevailed there to a considerable extent. He was happy, however, to inform the hon. Member— and, considering the source from which he derived his intelligence, he could speak with some confidence on the subject—that since the commencement of the late unhappy disturbances, and from the time when the troops knew that their services were really wanted, there had not taken place actually one desertion. But, as he had said before, various measures had been proposed, and various plans were at this moment in operation, with a view to check the crime of desertion. It was now upwards of eighteen months, in fact nearly two years, since he had had the satisfaction, in bringing forward the army estimates of stating in that House that it had been determined by the Government to effect reliefs in our colonies in the manner suggested by the hon. and gallant Officer opposite. He could assure the hon. and gallant Member, and the House, that the subject would not be neglected by the Government or the authorities at the Horse-Guards.

said, that the refusal of the noble Lord gave him some surprise. If the returns gave any inconvenience to her Majesty's Government, or could have in the slightest degree the effect of militating against her Majesty's service, he would be the last man in the House to wish them; but he confessed he could not himself clearly see how it was possible they should have that effect. He (Captain Wood) was anxious, not alone that they should have been granted, but also that the date of the enlistment of each deserter should be added to them; because he considered that it was the duty of the House to direct the Government how to provide proper soldiers for the respective services in which they should be required to act. In his opinion the main cause of desertion might be attributed to the inadequacy of the pension given to the soldier on the expiration of his servitude. Sixpence a day, which the last warrant granted, was quite insufficient as a remuneration for past services; and the soldier who had wasted his life and strength in dangers and distant climates often found himself obliged to have recourse to the workhouse when he was discharged and returned to his own country. Without pledging himself to any of the hon. and gallant Member's particular views who had moved for their return, he (Captain Wood) thought that they should be either granted or a sufficient reason assigned for their refusal.

hoped the gallant Officer would persevere with his motion. It seemed to him most strange that the noble Lord should refuse this return. That refusal might have the effect of inducing the public to suspect that desertion from the army in Canada was more prevalent than it actually was. The noble Lord perhaps imagined that a statement of the number of desertions might act as a sort of bad example to the troops now going out to Canada. But surely it would be much better to let the fact be known, than to leave the country to form an exaggerated estimate of the number of desertions. He was rather surprised that the noble Lord did not make some remark upon one observation which fell from the gallant Officer opposite, who had said that many young soldiers from Ireland were volunteering for the Canadian service, and that the circumstance afforded ground of suspicion that numbers of those young men were enlisting for the very purpose of deserting when they arrived in Canada, in order to join their friends who might be settled there. Now he remembered, a short time ago, when he happened to say in that House that there were very great inducements to the English soldiers to desert from the troops in America (and in that view of the subject he had now been sustained by the gallant Officer), a noble Lord not then in his place immediately taunted him with having held out to the troops an inducement to desert. It seemed, therefore, that one man might say a thing safely which another must not even hint at. Nay, he had even been charged with treasonable motives because he held the very language which the hon. and gallant Officer had himself to-night made use of without any reproof whatever. He was delighted that the gallant Officer had made that statement. It corroborated what he had before asserted, that the soldiers were ill-treated and ill-rewarded, and that when they went to America every inducement was held out to them to desert. After what had fallen from the gallant Officer, he hoped he should not hear any thing more about his own treasonable intentions for having said precisely the same thing.

regretted that it was not the intention of the hon. and gallant Officer to press his motion. Great expense was now experienced by the country in consequence of the extent to which the army required to be recruited owing to the desertions that took place in Canada. A better system of paying and rewarding the soldiers might prevent this. He would submit to the noble Lord that, for the good of the service, he ought to furnish the return applied for. Not only ought such a return to be made with respect to Canada, but with respect to the troops in all the British colonies. It was extremely desirable to know in what country and from what regiments, too, desertions were most frequent; because it might be discovered to what circumstances those desertions were attributable, and thus a remedy might be more readily devised.

was of opinion that the reasons stated by the noble Lord were sufficient to show the inexpediency of making such a return as was moved for at the present moment. He, therefore, hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would not press his motion.

expressed a similar hope, and observed that there was no similarity in the statement made a few evenings ago by the hon. Member for Westminster and that made to-night by the hon. and gallant Member near him (Captain Boldero). The statement of the hon. Member for Westminster had followed the invocation by the hon. Member for Leeds of the curse of heaven on the heads of the Ministry. He was aware that he was out of order in alluding to a past debate, but he was glad to find the motives of the hon. Member for Westminster were different from that which he had at the time supposed them to be.

begged to call the hon. Member's attention to the fact, that it was not usual to go back to particular expressions and words used by any hon. Member in a past debate, though it was open to the hon. Member to make a general allusion to that which had passed on a former occasion.

had no wish to be out of order—he merely desired to justify his own condemnatory observations upon the speech of the hon. Member for Westminster on the occasion to which he had referred.

had not gone into a statement of the reasons which induced him to oppose the present motion because he understood from the opening speech of the hon. and gallant Member that he did not mean to press it to a division, and he should therefore have been uselessly taking up the time of the House. But his reason was, that he could not help fearing that if the number of deserters in Canada were printed and circulated by the authority of the House, it might possibly have the effect of suggesting the crime to the soldiers in that colony. No benefit had been pointed out which would result from printing the return; it was not such a return as the hon. Member for Middlesex desired, for it would simply state the number of desertions, and have no reference to the date of the first enlistment, and it would give the House no materials for the preparation of any measures which ought to be adopted to remedy the evil. Seeing no good, therefore, in the production, and fearing that some inconvenience might, by possibility, arise from printing a return of so unusual a kind, he had thought it his duty, in accordance with the wishes of the military authorities, to oppose the motion of the hon. and gallant Member. The subject of the retiring pensions of the soldiers was a subject of too large and important a nature to be incidentally discussed; but he had heard with great regret the statement made by a military man, that the retiring pensions were only sixpence a-day. It was not true that by the existing warrant sixpence a-day only was allowed, whatever might be the amount of services. Sixpence a-day was the smallest sum which, under any circumstances, the common soldier could obtain, but a larger amount was allowed by the existing warrant for long and painful services; the sum was not fixed, but it varied according to the value of the services and the period during which they were given. When hon. Members looked carefully at the changes which had been introduced into the warrant by his right hon. Friend now president of the India Board, and the alterations which had been since adopted on his own recommendation, he thought that they would be found to have worked well for the publics service, to have done good to the soldier, and to have prevented improper charges on the public funds. It had not increased desertion, for he found that the actual desertion in Canada was greater in the year before the adoption of the amended warrant than it had been since; and looking at the whole subject of desertions in the various periods of service, it was undoubtedly true that the soldiers deserted most after short periods of service, when they had made small progress towards their claim for a pension; and certainly also the arithmetical result of the whole number of desertions showed that fewer had taken place among the soldiers who had enlisted after the adoption of the amended warrant than of those who entered the service at an earlier date. He begged pardon of the House for having trespassed on their indulgence, but after what had been said by several hon. Members he had thought it necessary to give that explanation.

had not moved for the return with the view of raking up past errors, but he had hoped that it would have been granted in order to check a crime which he regretted was so great in extent; still, however, as it had been stated that the whole subject was undergoing the consideration of the noble Lord and of the commander-in-chief, he would not press his motion. He hoped that every attention would be paid to the comforts of the men who were going out to Canada; if comforts were given to the soldier the country would be amply repaid, and every proper comfort which was withheld only rendered him discontented and unhappy. With reference to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Westminster, he must say, that he hoped no hon. Member would expect that he (Captain Boldero) would be guilty of high treason, nor did he mean to make any reflection on the hon. Member, when he said that there was a marked distinction between the two expressions which had been made use of; for the hon. Member had merely said, that temptations for desertion existed, whilst he (Captain Boldero) had specifically pointed them out.

did not object to the introduction of the bill, and he was glad to find that it had received the sanction of the highest medical authorities. He did not mean to say, that the administration of the medical charities in Ireland was incapable of amendment, but he knew that great exertions had been made by private individuals to effect improvement; and they ought not to do anything to prevent the exercise of private charity, nor to interfere in the management of the medical department, in which there were to be found no better educated men than those instructed in the medical schools in Ireland.

rejoiced at the introduction of the bill. He hoped that it would not interfere with private charity, but its object was a more general and perfect superintendence over the hospitals with the view of equalising the expenses and the benefits, and preventing what frequently now happened that 200 or 300 per cent was paid more to support some hospitals, than to uphold others affording the same accommodation. He believed that the medical schools, and especially the surgical schools in Dublin, would compete with any school that he knew of, and thus highly was its character considered abroad; and it was precisely because its character was so good that he believed the hospitals would be benefited by the proposed superintendence. He was glad that the bill was in the hands of so able a Member, and he could assure him that the Government were disposed to render him every assistance.