objected to it, because it would give the power to any candidate who found any number of persons in arrear with their taxes to pay the gross amount into the bank of Ireland. This would be a direct encouragement to bribery which he could neverconsent to.

defended the clause, and said, that it was necessary thatsome accredited office should be established for the payment of rates and taxes, as it was well known, that great difficulty existed in ascertaining when and where they were to be paid, and the amount of them.

had been highly edified at the horror which the hon. Recorder had expressed for bribery. But he would ask the hon. Gentleman whether he was aware, that every freeman received three pounds for his vote? If he was not aware of it he could tell the hon. and learned Gentleman the house where it was paid. There was a great necessity for some provision of this kind, as every obstacle was thrown in the way of the liberal voters paying their rates; the collectors would not receive the money even, as the registration session approached. In the great parish of St. George, also, part of which was in the county, there was a county rate, for which there were three or four collectors, who, however, had no office in Dublin, and the consequence was, that the rate-payers had to send into the country after them to pay their rates. What he proposed, was, that accounts should be opened at the bank of Ireland for all these rates or cesses, and that the man who paid a year's rate should be eligible to vote. At the late petition against his return one elector was struck off the poll for not paying the rates; he was registered in 1832, and his house was not liable to be rated, but in consequence of this decision of the Committee he would have to pay the arrears for six years before he could be again registered. There were many instances in Dublin where the landlords paid the rates and taxes, and the tenants of course paid a corresponding rent, and they never could learn what was the amount of taxes paid for their houses. He thought, that every man should be allowed to go to a place and hear what was the amount of cess, and, if he chose, to pay it himself and have his name registered. At present many hundreds in Dublin were prevented from obtaining the franchise in consequence of the landlords paying the local taxes. According to the survey of the city, there were not less than 14,000 houses returned as capable of giving the franchise, and not more than 4,000 persons were registered. The reason of this was, that the franchise was encumbered with the payment of these most vexatious taxes. All that he now required was, that those who were qualified and who wished to enjoy the municipal franchise should be enabled to do so by having facilities afforded them for the payment of their taxes.

observed, that the bill was intended to apply to all the corporations in Ireland, and, therefore, if the present clause was a good one it should be made general, and not special, to afford facilities only for the payment of the cesses, rates and taxes in the city of Dublin. If the payment of rates or municipal taxes was necessary for voting, the amount of the cess or tax should be clearly ascertained; for no man ought to be disfranchised for the nonpayment of a rate the amount of which he could not know. But that principle ought to be applied to every borough as well as to Dublin. The man who could not vote without paying taxes should not be cheated of his franchise by his not being able to learn where he was to pay his rates. Every man should be able to ascertain readily what he had to pay, and where he had to pay, his rates, and the collectors ought to be compelled to give due notice on both these points. The principle, however, should be general in its application, and he had urged its adoption when the English Reform Bill was before the House. The clause, however, went a great way further, and it introduced the means of bribery to a great extent. It was deemed desirable, that facilities should be afforded to a man for the payment of his own taxes; but surely it was not desired, that facilities should be afforded for the payment of the rates for others. The words of the clause were "It shall be lawful to any person to pay into the bank of Ireland to the credit of any of the said accounts such sums as he shall think fit." Now, any person might go to the bank and pay up in one sum the arrears of the taxes due, to the amount of 500l., and suppose from 250 persons. Suppose any one should say, that he wished to pay for 250 persons, they would introduce bribery in a wholesale way. Here, then, was not merely the payment for himself but for any number of persons. The clause went on to state—"and such payment shall be deemed to have been made to the collector to whose credit it was paid; and the proper officer of the bank of Ireland shall receive such payment, and give to the person making such payment a re- ceipt signed by such officer expressing the day and amount of such payment, the description of tax on account of which it was paid, the name of the person by whom paid and of the collector to whose credit it was due." He was sure, that the noble Lord would see, that this was a principle of universal application, and was one that he would not sanction, namely, that an individual might go and pay up the rates for any number of persons. He agreed, how ever, with the hon. and learned Gentleman that they ought to embody an enactment on the bill to protect electors from being disfranchised for the non-payment of rates of which they could not know the, amount.

perfectly agreed in the principle that every facility should be afforded for the payment of the arrears of cess by the elector himself, and would, therefore, suggest that an alteration to this effect should be made in the clause. It was well known, that the collectors had the power of disfranchising many electors by not calling for the cess. Surely, then, there ought to be a remedy for this, and the 13th clause they were now on, provided machinery which might, by a little attention, be made perfect. Every one by going to the bank would at once see the arrears he owed, and the bank clerk was made the agent of the collector for this purpose, and there would be no danger of his corruptly keeping out of the way. In Dublin the grievance was greater than in any other city or town, and it was there only they had the facility of the bank to carry the machinery into effect. It was admitted, that every elector should be allowed to pay the amount of his cess either by himself or agent, and he did not see how that could open the door to bribery.

asked why, if the principle was good, should it be only applied to Dublin, and not extended to Cork and other places? At the same time the collector should give notice of the amount of the municipal tax and where it was to be paid.

observed, that in the Reform Bill there were several clauses relative to rates applying only to particular places. Several of them applied to London and to no other place. In Dublin the evil which this clause was intended to remedy existed to a greater extent than elsewhere, and there were not less than five separate boards for the levying these cesses. Those facilities, therefore, could be ap- plied to Dublin more appropriately, and, above all, as there alone they had a body like the Bank of Ireland, and where a separate account could be opened with each collector.

suggested, that the clause might be withdrawn so as to be remodelled. There were very few of the towns in this bill where there were not branches of the Bank of Ireland, and the principle might be carried out fully and most easily. He thought, that it would be very easy to meet the views of the right hon. Gentleman, and that no persons should be allowed to pay but those who had a direct interest. He thought, that it would be easy to frame a clause which would not be liable to the objections stated by the right hon. Gentleman. He could adduce proof that, at the elections for Dublin, the collectors of the cesses, at the approach of an election, had orders to get out of the way, so as to prevent the electors paying their taxes in time. In conclusion, he requested the Attorney-General for Ireland to withdraw this clause and frame another which would not be liable to the objections which had been urged.

did not believe, that the collectors got out of the way with the view of preventing the rates being paid to them, but he admitted, that it was desirable that there should be some public officer to receive payment of the rates. He, therefore, agreed in the principle laid down by the Attorney-General and his right hon. Friend.

Clause struck out.

The remainder of the bill was passed through the Committee. Report to be received. The House resumed.

said, it was not his intention to trespass long on the patience of the Committee, in bringing forward a motion which annually fell to the lot of persons in his situation. He meant the usual motion, that certain resolutions relative to the duties on sugar, should be adopted by the Committee. It would be his duty to propose two resolutions this evening, in order to procure a supply to her Majesty, according to custom, from the amount of these duties upon sugar, the produce of the British possessions abroad. In reference to this subject, a consideration of great importance pre- sented itself, the effect of the drawback granted upon sugar imported into this country, whether in the raw state, or in the refined state. The present drawback was, in fact, a bounty upon sugar exported from this country. That this bounty was excessive, frequent experiments demonstrated; and that an alteration in the amount of the drawback was necessary, he also thought no person would, at the present day, deny. The course he should pursue with respect to these resolutions would be, to move the resolution relative to the drawback altering the present rate, and adopting a new rate of drawback in a subsequent stage, he should propose that the resolution of the Committee be reported to the House, upon which he should prepare a bill framed upon the principle of the resolution, and propose it for a first and a second reading, fixing a day for the House going into Committee upon the bill on a day sufficiently distant to give ample time for all persons interested to make objections to the proposed measure, and to come in and make their cases good, so that nothing should be done inadvertently or unadvisedly. Without going further into the history of the present system of encouraging the export trade in sugar, by allowing a considerable drawback upon sugars exported to other countries, he would remark, that, ever since the time of his predecessor (Lord Althorp) in the office he had the honour to hold, an opinion prevailed, that the drawback was too great. Many experiments have been instituted in order to detect and discover if such were the fact. The experiments made in consequence by Dr. Ure were, he thought, fully conclusive upon this subject, and they established one result—namely, that a greater amount of drawback was received by the manufacturers exporting refined sugar, upon such refined sugar, than was paid to Government in the way of duty upon importing the raw sugar into this country. It was true that, in some instances, these experiments had given different results; but since then, his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, had followed up the inquiry with great assiduity, and the result of his experiments was, that as Dr. Ure stated, there was an excess of drawback on refined sugar exported, over the duties paid on the raw sugar imported. It was also established, that Dr. Ure had stated the excess of the drawback over the duties on import at less than the amount actually received as draw- back from Government by these parties. He should trouble the Committee but with the results of one of these experiments—namely, one ordered to be made by his right hon. Friend upon a large transaction in sugar, amounting to 9,100 hogsheads; upon which the duty paid, amounted to 10,945l. The drawback upon its exportation, after passing through the process of being refined, was no less than 15,911l., showing that an excess of drawback had been paid to the extent of 4,966l. in this instance, which was nearly at the rate of 10s. 10d. per cwt. Acknowledging that all the experiments made did not exhibit the same results, he thought he still was fully justified in the abatement he should propose in the drawback. He should propose a resolution, that after a certain period, the drawback on double-refined sugar, which was now 43s. 2d. per cwt., should be reduced to 36s., making a reduction of drawback to the amount of 7s. 2d. on this sort of sugar; and this he should follow up by proposing, that the drawback receivable by the exporter upon high-refined sugar, which amounted to 36s. 10d., should be reduced to 30s.; making a reduction of drawback to the amount of 6s. 10d. upon this sort of sugar. He was convinced, had he attempted to make a still greater reduction, he should have been fully warranted in doing so. The scale he had taken was, as nearly as possible, one-sixth less than the scale of existing drawbacks. He had now explained his object to the Committee; but he could not sit down without adverting to a report which had reached him, that some parties in that House were prepared to introduce into this discussion, the Slave question, and attempt to connect the one with the other. He trusted, the rumour was destitute of all foundation. He begged any such hon. Member to recollect, that this was a question which claimed their serious attention, inasmuch as the proposition he was about to put into the hands of the Chairman, was one of great interest to the commerce and to the mercantile interest of the country, as it would go to reduce the drawback they had hitherto been accustomed to receive out of the Exchequer, upon the export of sugars to ports abroad. He should, for the present, content himself with entering into the general object of the resolutions with the view to grant thereupon a supply to her Most Gracious Majesty out of these duties, reserving to himself the privilege to enter more into detail, should it be rendered necessary by the course of the debates in the future stages of these resolutions, and the bill to be founded thereupon. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, that towards granting a supply to her Majesty, Queen Victoria, there be granted the duties payable upon sugar imported into this country under the act of the 6th and 7th of the late King, and that the said duties be continued.

assured the right hon. Gentleman that he perfectly concurred in opinion with him, that this was a subject which ought to be seriously discussed with reference to its importance to trade and commerce. The resolutions appeared to him to assume that the House was ready to hand over to the Crown the same duties as were now payable on sugar the produce of our British possessions, as if there was nothing objectionable in the scale of duties now required to be paid upon its import. The present duty payable upon molasses was but 9s. per cwt., in consequence of which a fraud was frequently practised, in a circuitous way, upon the customs, diminishing to that extent the amount of the year's revenue. It was ascertained that in every 112lbs weight of molasses, there were 36lbs of crystallizable sweet, capable of being extracted by the sugar refiners. If this were so, as he was informed it was, from excellent authority, it would fully authorise him in proposing that all molasses should pay the moderate duty of 24s. instead of 9s.; and this general rule would at once get rid of the distinctions between sugars, bastard sugar, molasses, and that sort of sweet which was technically called dirt; under some of which a fraud was so often practised upon the revenue and the fair trader. This it was primarily his intention to remedy. He perfectly acquiesced in the propriety of the sentiments delivered by the president of the board of trade in 1832, when he said, in reference to this subject, that it was the policy of the Government to place the commerce of this country on such a footing that, whilst it had the supply of the whole world open to it, care should be taken that, through inattention to fiscal regulations, nothing should be abstracted from the treasury. In proposing, that 24s. duty should be payable upon molasses, he meant that the article, upon being exported, should be liable to receive the full drawback, and the merchant should obtain the amount he had upon the import paid into the exchequer. The present rate of drawback was 36s. on single, and 43s. on double, refined sugars exported. Now the price of sugar fit for refining purposes was in bond 35s., whilst the price of the refined sugar itself was about 18d. lower than the price of raw sugar for refining purposes. This, according to the admission of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would show, that the exporter of such sugar would obtain, not 10s. 10d., but much nearer 17s. per cwt. upon the average, as drawback on sugar of the first quality. His object in offering this amendment to the Committee was, to ensure that the precise amount which had been paid at first as the duty on import into the treasury should be returned to the merchant, and no more. Nothing injurious to the poor man's interests or comforts was intended or contemplated, because, notwithstanding the higher rate of duty demandable, the result of the working of the general low rate of duty would be, that the poor man would get his treacle at a lower rate, and even sugar cheaper than he could at present. The hon. Member concluded by moving, that the duty payable upon molasses imported from any of our British possessions be in future 24s.

was perfectly at a loss to conceive what the hon. Gentleman meant, or what he would have the Committee to understand was the meaning of his present amendment. He was, it appeared, disposed to raise the duty upon molasses from 9s., its present amount, to 24s., and this he meant as a boon to the poor man, who could only afford to buy molasses. Was the quantity imported so great, or the frauds committed on the revenue so numerous, that nothing could appease his ardour for the welfare of the revenue but the total cutting off of the supply of molasses? He affected to say he wished to give the poor man molasses cheap. Why, the real effect of the amendment would and must be, as far as the duty was concerned, to render it 300 per cent. dearer. Molasses was never a commodity largely introduced; its quantity in the market was always moderate; and fraud in respect to it was sufficiently guarded against already. The syrup was prevented from coming in surreptitiously, and when introduced, charged at the custom-houses as sugar. The hon. Member could not, and did not, understand the subject upon which he addressed the Committee, nor was he acquainted with matters of very general notoriety in respect to the sugar trade. In taking the price of good sugar at 35s. in bond, and that of single refined sugar for exportation at 33s. in bond, and the whole of the subsequent calculation, whereby he obtained the arithmetical result that 17s. per cwt., instead of 10s. 10d., was the exporter's excess of drawback, the hon. Gentleman forgot to set against the surplus the expense of making the raw sugar into refined sugar. Was there no charge in the transmutation for boiling, for warehousing, for labour, and ingredients? Now he knew, that the most expert sugar-refiner could not refine under 6s. per cwt., while to ship it cost the exporter 1s. per cwt., which two items alone would reduce the hon. Member's estimate of a surplus drawback at once to 10s., or less even than his right hon. Friend had taken it to be. Upon the whole it must appear to the Committee that the hon. Gentleman had made a statement in support of his proposition without any adequate or even ordinary knowledge of the facts to which he had alluded.

considered, that the right hon. Gentleman had treated his hon. Friend rather hardly. The object which his hon. Friend had in view was two-fold. He wished, in the first place, to raise the duty on molasses to 24s., because of the quantity of saccharine matter contained in it being equal to that contained in raw or muscovado sugar; and, in the next, to reduce the amount of all drawback, so that it would not exceed the amount of the duty paid. He would not enter into the subject of drawbacks at present; but it was his intention to move, that the amount should be reduced to 24s. the cwt. on all classes of refined sugar. He pledged himself to prove that the bounty paid on refined sugar last year, in the way of drawback, amounted to 500,000l., and that this bounty increased the price of sugar in this country 1,000,000l. or 2,000,000l. per annum. The sum which he stated was paid by the people of this country as a distinct bonus to the West-India proprietors. He thought that this bounty ought to have been given up at the time when the twenty millions compensation was paid to the West-India proprietors.

was at a loss to understand the object which the hon. Member for Durham had in view. He could perfectly understand him if he had stated his object to be, that molasses should not be admitted at a lower duty than sugar in proportion to the saccharine matter contained in the molasses. Surely no one could contend that a hundred weight of molasses con- tained a hundred weight of sugar? If the hon. Member wanted to equalise the duty on sugar and molasses he ought first to be prepared to prove, that both were in effect the same. He thought, however, that very few men in the House would be prepared to go the length of voting, that sugar and molasses were one and the same thing. When the amendment of the hon. Member should have been disposed of, it was his intention to move, that the duty on sugar be reduced from 24s. to 20s. per cwt., which would be an advantage to the consumers without any material injury to the revenue.

regretted, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not carried his reforms further. He did not see why the people of the West Indies should not be allowed to refine their own sugar, and send it over here in the refined state. It would enable them to supply the people of this country with that article at a much cheaper rate. He thought, moreover, that we ought not to be confined to the consumption of sugar and coffee which were the growth of our own colonies. The trade of the Brazils was most valuable to this country, and yet we were not allowed to import into this country the sugar of the Brazils.

Amendment withdrawn.

rose to move an amendment to the resolution before the House, that the duty on sugar be reduced from 24s. to 20s. per cwt. His object in this proposal was to increase the consumption of sugar without reducing the revenue, Before the war the duty had been only 19s., and when the additional duty was laid on, it was understood that it would be dispensed with as soon as possible. He believed, if the reduction was made, that as much revenue would be derived from having the duty at 20s. as they now derived from a duty of 24s. per cwt. He, therefore, moved that reduction.

did not think, that the hon. Member for Kilkenny had moved the amendment with any serious expectation that it would be carried. The hon. Member had said, that, by a reduction of the duty, they would still be able to raise an equal amount of revenue, and if this were certain, it would be a great advantage to be enabled to add to the comforts of the public at large without any diminution of the revenue. But, considering the state of the sugar duties, and the present state of the revenue, which it had been his duty to explain to the House on a recent occasion, he was not in a condition to ask the House to concur with the hon. Member in any such experiment. If they were dealing with a surplus revenue, the case might be different; but, in the present state of the revenue, he did not see on what grounds the hon. Member could call for such a reduction as he proposed to make.

, in reply, said, that the general consequence of a reduction of duty was a great increase in the consumption of the article on which the reduction was made. He thought the state of the revenue ought not to be taken into consideration, for it always happened, that the more money a Chancellor of the Exchequer had at his disposal, the less economically was the Government of the country sure to be carried on. He would take the sense of the House upon his amendment.

wished to remind the Committee, that at present the expenditure of the country exceeded its income.

said, that the consumption of sugar had been stationary for the last twelve or thirteen years, and had not increased even in proportion to the increase of population. A reduction so small as that proposed would have no effect in increasing the consumption.

said, that reduction of taxation did not necessarily produce increased consumption, unless in cases where the reduction was large. When he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he reduced the duty on sugar to the extent of 3s. the cwt, what was the result? The year previous to the reduction, the consumption of sugar in the United Kingdom was 3,700,000 cwt. of sugar. The next year but one after the reduction, the consumption was 3,600,000 cwt., and it continued the same in the following year.

said, that, as some Members near him said, that he had not given notice, he would not take the House by surprise. He, therefore, withdrew the amendment for the present, but would now give notice that, in the committees on the Sugar duties Bill, he would move this reduction.

Amendment withdrawn, original resolution agreed to.

Second resolution agreed to, House resumed.

moved the further consideration of the report of the Courts of Justice (Scotland) Bill.

opposed the motion; it was too late to enter into the discussion of the subject matter of the bill.

The House divided, when there appeared—Ayes 35; Noes 65: Majority 30.

Further consideration of the report put off for three months.

moved the second reading of the Vestries in Churches Bill.

moved the adjournment of the debate till Monday.

The House divided on the adjournment: Ayes 34; Noes 59; Majority 25.

Motion to read the bill then a second time withdrawn, and motion made that the second reading of the bill take place the next day.

objected.

The House divided: Ayes 57; Noes 26: Majority 31.

Bill to be read a second time the next day.

moved the adjournment of the further debate on the subject to next Wednesday, on the ground that the bill had never received a due discussion as yet.

The House divided on the amendment: Ayes 24; Noes 57: Majority 33

The House again divided, on the question that the bill do pass: Ayes 57; Noes 19: Majority 38.

Bill passed.

[We give the list of only the first Division on the Freemen's Bill; the lessened minority on the second Division, was occasioned by a few gentlemen having left the House.]