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Commons Chamber

Volume 52: debated on Thursday 12 March 1840

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House Of Commons

Thursday, March 12, 1840.

MINUTES.] Petitions presented. By Messrs. Strutt, W. Evans, Baines, Dennistoun, Brotherton, Easthope, Grey, Aglionby, E. Buller, Gisborne, Hume, Wyse, Ewart, and Sir George Strickland, from an immense number of places, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord Eliot, and Mr. Waddington, from several places, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Messrs. F. W. Campbell, G. Craig, Lockhart, Houston, and Duff, from a number of places, in favour of Non-Intrusion.—By Mr. P. Howard, from Carlisle, and Mr. Lascelles, from Wakefield, against any Interference with the Internal Laws and Regulations of China.—By Mr. Corbally, from Meath, against the Importation of Foreign Flour into Ireland.—By Mr. Dennistoun, from Glasgow, for Universal Suffrage, and in favour of the Designs Copyright Bill.—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Clerkenwell, for a Free Pardon to Frost, Jones, and Williams—By Messrs. Baines, Hawes, Swart, and Easthope, from several places, for the Release of John Thorogood, and the Abolition of Church Rates, and of the Jurisdiction of Ecclesiastical Courts.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Salford, for the Abolition of the Rural Police.—By Sir R. Inglis, from three places, against the Irish Municipal Bill.—By Sir G. Clerk, from Dalkeith, for an Alteration in the Laws of Patronage.—By Sir T. Acland, from one place, for Church Extension; and from others, against any further Grant to Maynooth College.—By Messrs. Wyse, and S. O'Brien, from two places, against the Importation of Foreign Flour into Ireland.—By Mr. Stansfield, from Huddersfield, in favour of the Copyright Assignment Bill.

Privilege—Stockdale V Hansard—Mr Howard's Action

had to acquaint the House that the Sergeant-at-Arms had a communication to make with regard to certain summonses or writs which had been served upon some of the officers of that House. The Sergeant was then called to the bar, and stated that notices of action had been served by Thomas Burton Howard upon the following officers of the House:—Charles Stein, William Bellamy, John Lead, John Mitchell, and the assistant-secretary, Captain Gossett. The notices were delivered in, and the Sergeant was proceeding to read a memorandum which he made at the time, when

said, he very much doubted the expediency and propriety of the Sergeant-at-Arms making any statements concerning this matter at the bar. The Sergeant delivered in a copy of the notice, which was read by the clerk.

was understood to inquire why that notice had not been brought forward before?

said, he really did not know until the previous day that such a paper was in existence. He was told by the Sergeant-at-Arms that he had received some notice, but he never had any positive information that he could act upon. He was informed by the Speaker—yesterday, he thought—that this notice had been received. He moved that the whole subject be taken into consideration to-morrow.

Ordered.

War With China

wished to ask the noble Lord whether there was any truth in a report very generally believed, that war had been declared against China?

said, there had been no official intelligence amounting to what the hon. Member stated, namely, a declaration of war against China. Instructions had been given to the Governor-general of India to make some active preparations, and, although no intelligence of the nature alluded to had been received, he presumed that some directions given, or some act done, by the Governor-general, had given rise to the report of a declaration of war having been made.

said, supposing that the declaration should prove to be true, and that, in consequence of instructions which had been given to the Governor-general of India, a declaration of war was made, and some document was published containing that declaration, he wished to ask the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, two questions. First, whether that war, if proclaimed, would be carried on on account of the supreme authority of this country and at the expense of the united empire? And, second, whether or no the Government would bring down any message to Parliament announcing the intention of her Majesty to resort to hostilities?

apprehended that any communication which might take place with the government of China would be carried on in the name of the Queen of this country, and that whatever assistance might be afforded by the Governor-general of India to any operations which might be carried on in China would be assistance lent to this country under the responsibility of the Government of this country, and not of the East India Company. With regard to the other question, it was not at present the intention to send down any message of the kind.

was only supposing it to be the case that war had been proclaimed on account of our present position with regard to China, which was very different from that in which we stood previous to the renewal of the charter of the East India Company. His question was whether, in the event of hostilities being resolved on, any formal message would be sent down to the House?

replied, that the communications, whatever they might be, which took place between this country and China would be carried on in the name of the Queen of Great Britain, and not in the name of the Governor-general of India.

said, that was the very reason why he had put the question. In the case of an Indian war, he could quite understand why no message should be sent down to Parliament; that course was prescribed by ordinary usage. But in this case the noble Lord had stated that hostilities were to be carried on at the charge of the country and in the name of her Majesty. He presumed, therefore, that some formal communication should be made to Parliament on so important a measure as that of war, if a recourse to it were found necessary.

inquired whether or not other instructions besides those which had been communicated to the House, had been forwarded to the British Superintendent in China?

said, that undoubtedly, besides the instructions founded on those papers which had been laid on the table of the House, sent to her Majesty's superintendent at Canton, there were others; but they were of such a nature that he apprehended they could not be laid before the House.

asked whether there were not other instructions besides those which were given to Sir F. Maitland?

—There were not any other instructions bearing on the subject to which the papers relate.

wished to know whether the noble Lord, could communicate to the House anything further upon the subject of compensation for the opium destroyed. No communication was to be found in the papers already produced of a later date than the 13th of June, 1839, from the superintendent at Canton. Were those all the papers that the noble Lord meant to lay before Parliament.

said, that every paper had been laid on the Table of the House which had been moved for, and which it appeared to be expedient to lay before the Home, and necessary to give full information on the subject.

Subject dropped.

Hill Coolies

said, be had reason to believe, that the commission which was appointed by the Governor-general of India in Council in 1838, had made a report with respect to the emigration of Hill Coolies. Was the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies cognizant of any such document?

was quite aware of the appointment of the commissioners, but he had not received any report made by the commission, neither had his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Control.

wished to know from the noble Lord opposite whether, in the absence of such a document, it was intended to reverse the decision prohibiting the emigration of Hill Coolies, or whether it was intended to suspend any further proceedings in reference to the subject until the next Session of Parliament.

wished again to rise for the purpose of saying, that he should be very glad to produce the document sought for if he possessed it, provided he had any reason to think that it bore upon the subject to which the right hon. Baronet wished to call the attention of the House. He differed altogether from the right hon. Baronet as to its bearing on the case of the Hill Coolies, antecedently to the period at which the prohibition was issued. He must once more repeat, that he did not think the papers which the right hon. Baronet wished to see produced would affect the general question.

said, he understood that an act had passed the legislature of Demerara, regulating immigration to that colony. He observed that no papers relating to that subject had been laid upon the Table of the House, and he wished to know from the noble Lord opposite whether it was intended to produce them.

replied, that an order had been sent by the legislature of Demerara which had been disallowed, and the papers explanatory of those proceedings had been laid upon the Table of the House. There had not been any order from the Government here forwarded to Demerara, but a sketch or draught of an order had been sent which, if published in Demerara, would, he had no doubt, prove satisfactory to the Government at home. As to the production of such documents, he believed it was very unusual.

Subject at an end.

Lighting The House

would not obtrude at any very great length on the time of the House; but as he was about to request the House, if not to rescind a resolution which they had recently come to, at least to recede from a previous determination, he thought he was bound to give a sufficient reason for asking the House to reconsider this question. Mr. Gurney had presented a petition relative to the Bude light, which had already been adopted by the Trinity House. The Bude light was the invention of Mr. Gurney, and consisted of passing a stream of oxygen gas through an Argand burner, and the light was so brilliant that the Trinity House adopted it. Mr. Gurney offered to light the House with the Bude light, and to be at the expense of the experiment. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had objected to this being done at Mr. Gurney's expense, but had granted 100l. towards making the experiment, which had been conducted under the superintendence of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. This experiment had proved so satisfactory that the House had appointed a select committee to consider the subject. On the committee which had been appointed he (Lord Eliot) had been a member, and he certainly admitted, that, knowing the abilities of Mr. Gurney, and from his experience of the Bude light, he was pre-disposed in its favour, yet not so much as to be unalterably prejudiced against any evidence. Even this slight pre-disposition, however, could not be alleged against any other Gentleman on the committee, who were entirely disinterested either way. The committee had examined Professor Faraday, Sir D. Brewster, Dr. Ure, and Dr. Arnot, and not one of them expressed an unfavourable opinion of the light; nay, they were decidedly in its favour. They, however, stated, that there was a great necessity for adopting some means to improve the ventilation of the House, and that this light would afford facilities for that object, by giving opportunity for having a descending current: at all events, an improvement of the ventilation would prevent the annoyance of dust through the chinks in the floor of the House. The noble Lord had stated further, that many practical gentlemen, such as Mr. Rixon (of Hancock and Rixon's), had declared that a finer light than the Bude never was witnessed. The chandeliers now in use weighed several hundred weight each, with the massy shades (many yards in circumference), and that, suspended to a small chain, their safety was at least questionable—indeed, a day or two ago one had fallen and grievously injured a workman Then, as to the expense of the Bude light, it had cost some 700l., but that included a stock which would last through the Session, and the chandeliers had already cost upwards of 500l., and divers decorations had been added by the gallant Officer (Colonel Sir F. Trench.) He considered that the experiments with the Bude light had not been fully and fairly made, and that, therefore, the wishes of the committee and the orders of the House had not been complied with. He trusted, therefore, that the House would accede to his motion, and if, after a fair trial, the House should be convinced, under all the circumstances, that the present mode of lighting was preferable to the Bude light, he, for one, would not again venture to become its advocate. The noble Lord concluded by moving, that opportunities for further experiment be afforded to Mr. Gurney.

seconded the motion. He did not believe, that there was any Member in that House who suffered more from defective sight than he did, and he must confess, that he experienced the greatest possible relief when the unseemly chandeliers were taken away and the Bude light substituted, and which he hoped soon to see restored.

said, the only object he had in view was, that hon. Members should have that light that was most agreeable to them. He would not say one word in favour or against either mode of lighting, as hon. Members were competent from the experiments that had been made, to form their own opinions. There was one circumstance, however, to which he was anxious to call the attention of the House. It had been stated that an accident had occurred on Monday, in consequence of the weight of the chandeliers. Now in consequence of that, he had taken the trouble to obtain an account of the weight of different chandeliers in public buildings. The lustres in the National Gallery weighed 17 cwt.; those of the Opera House, 14 cwt.; Covent-garden theatre, 18 cwt.; in Drury-lane theatre, 7 cwt.; and in some public show room, 15 cwt. The lustres of the House, with shades and chains, amounted to 6 cwt. only. The shades, too, could be formed of lighter material, so as to render them less cumbrous. With respect to the expense of candles, there was an error in the calculation made by the noble Lord, because the 6l. which had been quoted as the expense each night, did not extend to the candles used in the House merely, but to lights consumed in the coffee room, reading room, and other apartments also. The experiments on the Bude light, which had cost the country already 750l., had been fairly tested, and found insufficient.

considered that the experiments which had been made respecting the Bude light afforded a safe guide to the lighting of the future Houses of Parliament which were in the course of construction. At the commencement of the Session, he had been struck with the appearance of the interior of the House, by the introduction of that light; but since the introduction of these domestic lights, the wax candles, with the overhanging opaque bodies, flanked on one side with a petticoat, and on the other with an apron, the whole architectural beauty of the House had been destroyed. He would support the motion.

agreed with the hon. Member, who said, that this was a question of feeling and not of argument, and he must confess, that he saw better by the wax lights than by the new light. The hon. Member had spoken of the experiment being made with reference to the future houses of Parliament; but he must protest against being made the corpus vile of such experiments.

said, that the half-perfected Bude light had been found superior to the wax lights, and for that reason, he would support the motion.

The House divided:—Ayes 136; Noes 86: Majority 50.

List of the AYES.

Acland, T. D.Forester, hon. G.
Aglionby, H. A.Gisborne, T.
Aglionby, MajorGoring, H. D.
Alston, R.Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Archbold, R.Guest, Sir J.
Baines, E.Hamilton, Lord C.
Barnard, E. G.Harland, W. G.
Barron, H. W.Hawes, B.
Berkeley, hon. C.Heathcote, J.
Bewes, T.Hector, C. J.
Brabazon, Sir W.Hill, Lord A. M. C.
Bramston, T. W.Hindley, C.
Bridgeman, HHobhouse, T. B.
Briscoe, J. I.Hope, H. T.
Brodie, W. B.Horsman, E.
Brotherton, J.Howard, F. J.
Brownrigg, S.Howard, P. H
Buller, C.Hume, J.
Busfeild, W.Humphrey, J.
Clay, W.Hutchins, E. J.
Clive, E. B.Hutt, W.
Cole, ViscountHutton, R.
Collier, J.James, W.
Courtenay, P.Knight, H. G.
Craig, W. G.Langdale, hon. C.
Cripps, J.Lascelles, hon. W. S.
Currie, R.Lemon, Sir C.
Curry, Mr. SergeantLincoln, Earl of
Denison, W. J.Lister, E. C.
Divett, E.Loch, J.
Dundas, C. W. D.Lushington, C.
Dundas, F.Lynch, A. H.
Du Pre, G.Macaulay, rt. hon. T.
Easthope, J.M'Taggart, J.
Egerton, W. T.Martin, J.
Elliot, hon. J. E.Maule, hon. F.
Ellice, E.Melgund, Viscount
Ellis, W.Milnes, R. M.
Evans, Sir De L.Morpeth, Viscount
Evans, W.O'Connell, J.
Ewart, W.O'Connell, M. J.
Feilden, W.O'Conor Don
Fielden, J.Ord, W.
Fenton, J.Paget, F.

Palmer, R.Style, Sir C.
Palmerston, ViscountThornely, T.
Parker, J.Townley, R. G.
Patten, J. W.Tufnell, H.
Pattison, J.Turner, E.
Pendarves, E. W. W.Verney, Sir H.
Phillips, M.Vernon, G. H.
Pigot, D. R.Vigors, N. A.
Pigot, R.Vivian, J. H.
Price, Sir R.Vivian, rt. hn. Sir R.
Protheroe, E.Wall, C. B.
Pusey, P.Wallace, R.
Rickford, W.Warburton, H.
Roche, W.Ward, H. G.
Rundle, J.White, A.
Seymour, LordWilbraham, G.
Sharpe, GeneralWilliams, W.
Slaney, R. A.Williams, W. A.
Somerville, Sir W. M.Winnington, Sir T. E.
Stanley, hon. E. J.Worsley, Lord
Stansfield, W. R.Wyse, T.
Staunton, Sir G. T.Yates, J. A.
Steuart, R.
Stuart, Lord J.TELLERS.
Strickland, Sir G.Acland, Sir T.
Strutt, E.Eliot, Lord

List of the NOES.

Arbuthnot, hon. H.Hope, hon. C.
Ashley, LordHope, G. W.
Baker, E.Houstoun, G.
Baring, H. B.Hurt, F.
Baring, hn. W. B.Inglis, Sir R. H.
Blackstone, W. S.Irving, J.
Bradshaw, J.Jones, J.
Broadwood, H.Lambton, H
Castlereagh, ViscountLockhart, A.
Chapman, Sir M.L.C.Mackenzie, T.
Chapman, A.Mackenzie, W. F.
Chute, W. L. W.Mackinnon, W. A.
Clive, hon. R. H.Mahon, Viscount
Copeland, Mr. Ald.Maunsell, T. P.
Corry, hon. H.Miles, P. W S.
Dalrymple, Sir A.Morris, D.
Darby, G.Nicholl, J.
De Horsey, S. H.Palmer, G.
Douglas, Sir C. E.Peel, J.
Duncombe, hon. W.Pemberton, T.
Ellis, J.Polhill, F.
Farnham, E. B.Powerscourt, Visct.
Fitzroy, hon. H.Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.
Gaskell, J. M.Reid, Sir J. R.
Gladstone, W. E.Richards, R.
Gordon, hn. CaptainRose rt. hon. Sir G.
Gordon, R.Salwey, Colonel
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.Scrope, G. P.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.Shaw, rt. hon. F.
Grimsditch, T.Smith, R. V.
Grimston, ViscountSomerset, Lord G.
Hastie, A.Stanley, Lord
Henniker, LordSugden, rt. hn. Sir E.
Hepburn, Sir T. B.Surrey, Earl of
Herbert, hon. S.Sutton, hn. J. H. T. M.
Herries, rt. hon. J. C.Tancred, H. W.
Hodgson, F.Turner, W.
Hodgson, R.Vere, Sir C. B.
Holmes, hon. W. A.Villiers, Lord

Waddington, H. S.Wrightson, W. B.
Walsh, Sir J.Young, J.
Whitmore, T. C.
Williams, R.TELLERS.
Wodehouse, E.Fremantle, Sir T
Wood, ColonelTrench Sir F.

First-Fruits And Tenths

, as chairman of the Committee on the First Fruits and Tenths of the Clergy, brought up the report of the whole House, by which it was resolved:—

"That it is expedient to make provision for the abolition of the First Fruits and Tenths of the Clergy as at present enforced in England and Wales, after the next avoidance; and in lieu thereof to levy an assessment of one-tenth part of the clear annual value upon all archbishoprics and bishoprics, and all dignities and benefices and other spiritual promotions above the clear yearly value of 300l., to be applied in the first instance to the augmentation of the maintenance of the poor clergy, and afterwards to the building and re-building of churches, and to such other purposes as may conduce to the interests of religion, and that a bill be brought into Parliament grounded on this resolution."

said, that having already explained his sentiments on this measure, he should move to negative the report.

would merely say, that in the bill, which, with the leave of the House he should introduce, it was not his intention to adhere rigidly to the assessment of annual Tenths, though he conceived that this would generally be considered very productive. He should, however, leave it to the House, in the progress pf the bill, to regulate the amount of payment to be made out of the higher livings for the augmentation of the lower, and to award to the labouring clergy such proportion of the real annual income of all livings above 300l. a-year, when they ceased to be held by the present incumbents, as Parliament might think necessary to maintain the station of the labouring clergy, and to secure to them and their families a competent support.

The House divided on the question that the report be brought up:—Ayes 46; Noes 54: Majority 8.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, MajorBellew, R. M.
Archbold, R.Bewes, T.
Barnard, E. G.Bridgeman, H.
Barry, G. S.Brotherton, J.

Busfield, W.Staunton, Sir G.
Collier, J.Stuart, Lord J.
Elliot, J. E.Strickland, Sir G.
Heathcoat, J.Style, Sir C.
Hector, C. J.Tancred, H. W.
Hobhouse, T. B.Turner, E.
Hume, J.Vigors, W. A.
Hutt, W.Walker, R.
James, W.Wallace, R.
Knight, H. G.Warburton, H.
Lemon, Sir C.Ward, H. G.
Lister, E. C.White, A.
Lushington, C.Wilbraham, G.
Martin, J.Williams, W.
Pechell, CaptainWilliams, W. A.
Pendarves, E. W.Worsley, Lord
Roche, W.Yates, J. A.
Rundle, J.
Slaney, R. A.TELLERS.
Smith, J. A.Baines, E.
Somerville, Sir W. M.Aglionby, H. A.

List of the NOES.

Bagge, W.Mackinnon, W.
Bentinck, Lord G.Mahon, Lord
Bramston, T. W.Neeld, J.
Broadley, H.Nicholl, J.
Brownrigg, S.Palmer, G.
Clay, W.Palmerston, Lord
Courtenay, P.Peel, J.
Cripps, J.Polhill, F.
Dalrymple, Sir A.Pusey, P.
Darby, G.Reid, Sir J. R.
Eaton, R. J.Rose, Sir G.
Egerton, W. T.Russell, Lord J.
Eliot, LordShaw, F.
Ellis, J.Sheppard, T.
Estcourt, T.Somerset, Lord G.
Freshfield, J. W.Stanley, Lord
Gaskell, J. MilnesVere, Sir C. B.
Gordon, R.Vernon, G. H.
Graham, Sir J.Villiers, Lord
Grimston, LordVivian, J. E.
Hamilton, Lord C.Wodehouse, E.
Harland, W. C.Wood, Colonel
Henniker, LordWood, Colonel T.
Hepburn, Sir T.Wyse, T.
Herries, J. C.Young, J.
Hodgson, R.
Holmes, W.TELLERS.
Hope, hon. C.Fremantle, Sir T.
Irving, J.Goulburn, H.

Report thrown out.