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Commons Chamber

Volume 63: debated on Monday 13 June 1842

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House Of Commons

Monday, June 13, 1842.

Untitled Debate

MINUTES.] BILLS. Public.—1.° Assessed Taxes; Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland); Assessed Taxes Composition.

Reported.—Sugar Duties; Double Costs; Dean Forest Foot; Dean Forest Ecclesiastical Districts.

Private. — 1°. Toxteth Park Paving and Sewerage (No. 2).

2°. Lagan Navigation.

Reported.—Gait's Naturalization; London Bridge Approaches and Royal Exchange Avenues; St. Briarel's Small Debts.

PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Masterman, from Cole. man-street Ward, for the Redemption of the Tolls on Waterloo Bridge.—By Mr. Stuart Wortley, from Holm. firth, for Alteration of the Poor-law Amendment Bill.— From Colchester Union, against the Poor-law Amendment Bill.— By Mr. Bell, from Northumberland, and Durham, against the Employment of Children in the Mines and Collieries.—From the Subscribers to the Queen's County Infirmary, against placing such Institutions under the Control of the Poor-law Commissioners. —By Captain Berkeley, from Frenchay, for the Abolition of Church Rates; and from the Catholics at Bristol, for Equality of Civil Rights.—By Captain Thomas Wood, from Staines, and Winchester, against the use of Rail' ways on Sundays.—From Enfield, against any further Grant to Maynooth College; and from H. E. Edwards, against the West Middlesex Water-work Company.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Salford, and Stebbing, for the use of Affirmations in lieu of Oaths.—From the Presbytery of Nairn, for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Burgh and Parochial Schoolmasters of Scotland.—From Kingston-upon-Hull, for a Clause in the Municipal Corporations Act to confer upon Town Councils the power of Erecting and Regulating Lunatic Asylums.—From Trustees of Doncaster, and Hutfield Roads, Bawtry and Lelly Roads, and Bawtry-bridge and Hatton Road, against the Turnpike Roads Act.—From the Rev. B. Phillpott, for Amendment of the Law relative to the Rating of Tithes. —From Abraham Abrahams, for an opportunity to refute the Assertion of John Wren touching the Southampton Election.—From R. Smyth, against the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill.

Texas—The Blockade

wished to ask the right hon. Baronet near him, whether it was the intention of the Government, before they recognised the blockade of Mexico by Texas, to recognize the independence of Texas?

apprehended that the recognition of a blockade did not depend on the previous recognition of the belligerent state. There were several instances in which this country had recognized a blockade without having previously recognised the particular state instituting the blockade. In the present case, however, as he had before stated, treaties had been concluded with the Government of Texas, by persons having the authority of Her Britannic Majesty for that purpose; this occurred under the late Administration, but since he had come into office, he had seen no allegation whatever that the parties employed to make these treaties had exceeded their authority. It was not necessary for him to state whether he considered those treaties wisely conceived, or otherwise; all he had to say was, that they had been concluded, and as there was no allegation that the parties concluding them for the British Government had exceeded their authority, he did not feel it necessary for the present Government to advise her Majesty not to ratify those treaties, and they would accordingly be ratified by the time specified, namely, by the 1st of August next.

Bribery At Elections

wished to ask the noble Lord opposite a question in reference to his bill for the correction of bribery. Several clauses of that bill rested on the supposition that election committees would continue, as at present, within the jurisdiction of the House. Now the noble Lord was aware that he and many other Members thought that the House would better consult the ends of justice by parting with that jurisdiction. The bill which regulated that jurisdiction was to expire with the present Session, and the question of its renewal was probably to be discussed with in a few days. He therefore wished to ask the noble Lord whether he would consent to postpone the second reading of the bill until the principle which he here pointed out had been discussed and decided?

considered that as the jurisdiction of deciding on election petitions, and as to who were lawfully and; rightly elected, had remained in the House for more than 200 years, they could not, as matters now stood, act on any other supposition than that the jurisdiction would so continue. Of course, if the House here-after decided upon parting with this jurisdiction, the House would make its other regulations and proceedings conformable to the change, and the measure now before the House, if passed into a law, would be ! also made conformable; but at present he saw no reason to postpone the second reading of his bill, on the mere supposition that the House might, perhaps, on some future day, take a view of this part of the subject altogether different from its long established principle.

Coal Duties

begged to know what the right hon. Baronet proposed to do as to the coal duties.

said, Government did not intend to adhere to the duty which it some time since announced on the export of British coal, namely, 4s. The proposal: which Government now intended to make, and which he hoped would meet with the general assent of the House, would be,— that on round coal exported from this country there should be laid a duty of 2s per ton; and on small or screened coal, of 1s>per ton.

asked whether any drawback would be allowed in favour of coal exported for the use of steam-vessels in the service of British subjects?

said, that the position of these steam-vessels in reference to the supply of coal had been taken into consideration by the Government, and the very great difficulty of allowing a drawback was one of the reasons which induced them to make the reduction in the proposed duty which he had just stated. He hoped that with this reduction the House would not think it necessary to incur the risk of fraud which the allowance of drawback would certainly involve. The loss to the revenue he estimated would be about 50,000l.

The Gold Coin

said, that of late very great inconvenience and loss had been sustained by the public, more especially by the humbler classes, in consequence of the proclamation respecting the depreciated gold coinage. Every day innumerable cases were occurring in which poor people, ill able to afford it, were subjected to a loss of one shilling in the pound, and even more. It was very true that similar proclamations had been issued before, but the last of these was twenty-one years ago. He did not mean to say that the proclamation lately issued might not be a very proper and necessary one; but he thought that some method should have been, and, at all events, should now be devised, for mitigating the consequent loss. He would suggest, with reference to the poorer classes, that something might be done by the medium of the savings'-banks towards letting them receive the full value of what money they had.

was very glad that the hon. Gentleman had mentioned the subject, as it gave him an opportunity to dispel, he hoped, an impression which generally prevailed, and which had been given circulation to by interested parties, that the value of the old sovereign was greatly below that of the more recent gold coinage. Of the large number of sovereigns that were paid into the Bank, which gave a fair criterion, the deficiency in weight varied from 1¼ to per cent.; so that the loss of 3d. in the sovereign would completely compensate for the deficiency of weight in the average of cases. Some might be a little more, some a little less valuable; but certainly threepence in the pound was the utmost average deterioration. He was, however, at the present moment in communication with the officers of the revenue, with the view of facilitating the exchange of light coin, so as to meet the wants more especially of the humbler classes; but he was anxious in the interval which must necessarily elapse before this arrangement could be brought into operation, to have it distinctly made known to the public, that the diminution of the value was not in any case such as to justify the demands which were made by interested persons on the holders of light sovereigns.

Provision Riots At Ennis

begged to ask whether the right hon. Baronet opposite would have any objection to lay on the Table of the House the coroner's inquest, and the report of the commissioners sent down by Government to Ennis, to inquire into the unhappy and frightful scene which had taken place there, and in which several had been killed?

said, that all he knew of the case officially was, that the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, immediately upon hearing of this lamentable occurrence, sent down a Queen's Counsel to take a report of the matter, and that a verdict had been returned by the coroner's inquest; and under these circumstances, he hoped the House would not press at present for the papers.

said, that besides this, another inquiry of even higher interest was whether Government had done, or was about to do anything to relieve the fearful distress which prevailed in all parts of Ireland, even in Wicklow, the district nearest Dublin?

would only say, that the Government was deeply alive to the importance of the subject.

Customs' Acts — The Tariff — Cables

House in committee on the Customs' Duties Act. Upon the proposition that the duty on cables not being iron, tarred, or untarred, should be 6 s. per cwt.

objected to the amendment. He thought, that for an article of such general use in the navy, the protection should not be more than was abso- lutely necessary. He would therefore adhere to the duty of 6s., as proposed in the schedule.

The committee divided on the question that the blank be filled with "Six Shillings."— Ayes 163; Noes 35:—Majority 128.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.Gordon, Lord F.
Aldam, W.Gore, M.
Allix, J. P.Gore, W. O.
Bagge, W.Gore, hon. R.
Baillie, Col.Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Baillie, H.J.Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.
Barnard, E. G.Granby, Marquess of
Bateson, R.Greenaway, C.
Beckett, W.Grimston, Visct.
Bernard, Visct.Hamilton, W. J.
Blackstone, W. S.Hampden, R.
Bodkin, W.H.Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.
Botfield, B.Hastie, A.
Bowring, Dr.Hay, Sir A. L.
Brotherton, J.Hepburn, Sir T. B.
Brownrigg, J. S.Hindley, C.
Bruce, Lord E.Hogg, J. W.
Buckley, E.Houldsworth, T.
Buller, E.Holmes, hn. W. A'C.
Bunbury, T.Hope, hon. C.
Burrell, Sir C. M.Howard, Lord
Chelsea, Visct.Howard, hon. H.
Christie, W. D.Howick, Visct.
Chute, W. L. W.Hughes, W. B.
Clerk, Sir G,Hume, J.
Clive, hon. R. H.Hussey, T.
Codrington, C. W.Hutt, W.
Colborne, hn. W. N. R.Irving, J.
Craig, W. G.James, W.
Cripps, W.Jermyn, Earl
Darner, hon. Col.Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Dawnay, hon. W. H.Jones, Capt.
Denison, E. B.Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Dennistoun, J.Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
D'Israeli, B.Lambton, H.
Divett, E.Layard, Capt.
Dodd, G.Lefroy, A.
Douglas, Sir C. E.Lemon, Sir C.
Douglas, J. D. S.Liddell, hon. H. T.
Duncan, Visct.Lindsay, H. H.
Duncan, G.Litton, E.
Duncombe, hon. A.Lockhart, W.
Egerton, W. T.Lopes, Sir R.
Eliot, LordM'Geachy, F. A.
Escott, B.Mackenzie, T.
Estcourt, T. G. B.Mackenzie, W. F.
Ferguson, Col.Mackinnon, W. A.
Fitzroy, hon. H.M'Taggart, Sir J.
Fleming, J. W.Mainwaring, T.
Ffolliott, J.Manners, Lord C. S.
Forbes, W.Marshatn, Visct.
Forster, M.Martin, J.
Fuller, A. E.Marton, G.
Gaskell, J. MilnesMaule, rt. hon. F.
Gibson, T. M.Miles, P. W. S.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.Milnes, R. M.
Gladstone, T.Mitcalfe, H.
Gordon, hon. Capt.Morgan, O,

Morris, D.Sheppard, T.
Morrison, J.Smythe, hon. G.
Mundy, E. M.Somerset, Lord G.
Norreys, Sir D. J.Somerville, Sir W.M.
Ogle, S. C. H.Stanley, E.
Ord, W.Stansfield, W. R. C.
Pakington, J. S.Stanton, W. H.
Patten, J. W.Staunton, Sir G. T.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.Stuart, H.
Peel, J.Strutt, E.
Philips, M.Sutton, hon. H. M.
Pigot, Sir R.Thesiger, F.
Plumridge, Capt.Thornhill, G.
Polhill, F.Towneley, J.
Powell, Col.Tumor, C.
Praed, W. T.Vere, Sir C. B.
Pringle, A.Vernon, G. H.
Protheroe, E.Waddington, H. S.
Rashleigh,W.Wall, C. B.
Reid, Sir J. R.Whitmore, T. C.
Richards, R.Winnington, Sir T. E.
Round, C. G.Wood, Col. T.
Scholefield, J.TELLERS.
Scott, hon. F.Baring, H.
Shaw, rt. hon. F.Fremantle, Sir T.

List of the NOES.

Bankes, G.Manners, Lord J.
Barclay, D.Masterman, J.
Busfeild, W.O'Brien, W.S.
Byng, G.Packe, C. W.
Cochrane, A.Paget, Col.
Douglas, Sir H.Palmer, G.
Duncombe, hon. O.Philips, G. R.
Ebrington, Visct.Pryse, P.
Gill, T.Rumbold, C. E.
Grosvenor, Lord R.Russell, Lord J.
Halford, H.Sandon, Visct.
Hanmer, Sir J.Tufnell, H.
Hawes, B.Wawn, J. T.
Henley, J. W.Wilshere, W.
Hinde, J. H.Wood, B.
Hodgson, R.Worsley, Lord
Ingestre, Visct.TELLERS.
James, Sir W. C.Chapman, A.
Johnstone, Sir J.Mitchell, T. A.

Blank filled with Six Shillings.

Upon the question that the importation of unhewn Stones from foreign countries be free,

rose to move his amendment, that upon stones not particularly enumerated or described, nor otherwise charged with duty, the present rates of duty should be maintained. This he did on behalf of the persons employed in the trade, and particularly in the working of Portland stone, whose subsistence depended entirely upon their occupation of that branch of industry. His proposition would not restrict any of the comforts of the poor generally, because it was unnecessary for him to say, that their habitations were not built of this expensive material. None of the raw material of foreign stone came into our market. It was all wrought to a certain extent, and therefore the question was one between English and foreign labour. While the price of Portland stone at the port of shipment was 16s. per ton, 11s.per ton of that money was the proportion absorbed in labour, and the committee might judge how much mischief must be done by displacing this amount of labour, and admitting at a still greater advantage, French stone, which already, even with the duty, undersold our own article. The population of the Isle of Portland amounted to nearly 3,000, all of whom, with very few exceptions, depended entirely upon this article. He had moved for a return of last year's duty upon foreign stone, but had not been able to obtain it, and was therefore obliged to form his conclusions from the only data which were accessible to him; and judging thus, he was led to believe, that the importation of foreign stone was increasing, because he was informed that some of the churches of most recent erection, and amongst them those of Camberwell and Andover, were contracted for in foreign stone. It was true, and he was happy to say it, that that great national work, the Royal Exchange, was contracted for in Portland stone, because the citizens of London, justly proud of their national edifices, disregarded the question of comparative expense; but others would prefer the inferior article if it were only cheaper. And there was no doubt that the foreign stone was inferior, not only to the Portland stone, but also to the stone in many parts of Yorkshire, and particularly that beautiful description of which the two Houses of Parliament were being built. He did not wish his proposition to apply to limestone, or any other description of stone than that used for building; and he hoped the article would be omitted from the tariff, or, at all events, that the Government would take time to reconsider the item.

was persuaded, from inquiries which had been instituted, that the proposed alteration in the stone duties would not only benefit the public, but would also be of advantage to the labouring classes in Portland. An advance to free-trade principles would tend to make the labouring classes less dependent than they were upon the quarry-owners. At present the state of these classes was by 1 no means satisfactory. The truck system prevailed to a great extent. The workmen were only paid their wages once in six months, sometimes only once in the year, and, in the meantime, they were supplied, but at a high rate, with necessary articles by agents of the quarry-masters, who, when the wages were paid, deducted the value of the necessaries furnished from the amount. He would wish to read to the committee some statements he had received upon the subject from various parties in Dorsetshire and Portland. The first was from a merchant in Portland: it stated:—

" In this island there is a population of 2,800 persons entirely dependent on the stone trade, and subject to the injurious operation of the truck system. The quarry-men are paid every six months, and sometimes it is twelve months before they have a settlement with their masters, who all that time supply them with bread or flour at a higher price than they could get the same quality for, if paid weekly or monthly. Indeed, it may be said to be usually nine months from the time of commencing their work till a settlement is made by the masters..The price of best flour delivered here (in Portland) is stated to me, by a miller at Weymouth, at 48s. I believe for cash I could get it 1s. or 2s. less. The price the men are charged is 60s. a sack of 280 lbs.; some masters charge it less. The 4-lb. loaf here is 9d.; at Weymouth good bread may be bought at 7½d. the 4-lb. loaf. When the men are paid, the party who has supplied them with bread and flour sits at the pay-table and receives his money."
Another gentlemen, resident in Weymouth, stated as follows:—
" The alteration proposed in the new tariff would do more to help Portland, and the public generally, than anything else that can occur. The duty can be well taken off, and the public would then be relieved from a train of exactions and impositions which are disgraceful. There are two or three merchants in London who hold largely, and the rule of the place is, that the payment of wages only takes place once in six months; consequently, the workmen, during the interval, are compelled to have of the different agents things in kind, as they call it—flour, bread, butter, &c., of which an account is kept against them, charging them, of course, the highest possible price, and at the end of the half-year all this is set out against their wages. The men, on the other hand, in consequence of this, are quite reckless, and will have holidays when they like, and every now and then strike for wages. It was only last summer they struck, and there was scarcely a stone shipped from the quarries for six months; the men in the meantime working in the Crown and common lands, and making stone and selling it, cutting the quarry-holders up, until the latter were glad to accede to their terms, which, by the bye, were most rascally; but yet, with the prices they get, and in the way they pay, the gentlemen could well afford to give them."
He wished that the hon. Member for Knaresborough was in his place to hear these statements of the truck-system as it existed, not among corn-law agitators, but in a county a stronghold of Conservatism. He trusted that attention might be paid to the subject of wages in this island by the hon. Member's committee, or rather he would appeal to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashley), whose philanthropy no party feelings could ever pervert. A large portion of the Portland quarries were Crown property. He understood that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln) had, with a view to the approaching expiry of the Crown leases, sent the Crown surveyor down to Portland, and procured a new valuation, in consequence of which he had raised the rent very considerably; and he understood that the present Crown lessees had undertaken to renew the leases on the higher terms, while they were stating in petitions presented by the hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that the effect of the change in the tariff would be to compel the present owners and lessees of quarries to abandon the working of them. The noble Lord or the right hon. Gentleman would correct him if he was wrong, and would, he had no doubt, have the goodness to confirm him in this statement if it were correct. These were the reasons why he cordially supported the proposal in the tariff which would confer a benefit on the public, do no injustice to the quarry proprietors, and open out a great prospect of good to the labourer in the Portland quarries.

was astounded at the communication which had just been made as to the extent to which the truck system was carried in Portland. The subject should have his consideration.

said, the proposed alterations in the tariff were not made with a view to local but general circumstances. They proposed to place upon stone in block a duty of 2s. per ton, which would amount to an ad valorem duty of about 10 per cent. The hon. Gentleman wished to have a greater amount of protection than the interested parties themselves required. They did not wish the present rate, which imposed an ad valorem duty of 20 per cent, to be maintained. He proposed one of 10 per cent., and he would certainly oppose the motion of the hon. Member.

thought, that the matter was more a question of proprietors than of workmen. He was sorry to hear a duty of 2s. proposed, as he understood that the originally-intended duty had been only 1s. per ton.

said, that his constituents would be best contented by the imposition of no duty at all. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade would not make any concession to the proposition before the House.

said, that the point was not whether a concession should be made, or whether a point should be established; their proposal was, that rough stone should be admitted free, stone in blocks should pay a duty of 2s. per ton, and hewn stone a duty of 10s. per ton.

Amendment withdrawn.

Schedule agreed to.

On the question that the duly on foreign Coffee be 8 d. a pound,

rose for the purpose of proposing that this duty should be reduced to 7d. The grounds on which he felt justified in resisting the proposed rate of duty, he would very shortly submit to the House. The right hon. Baronet, in the speech in which he introduced this tariff, calculated the loss to the revenue from his proposal at 170,000l. Now, he thought the House must admit that that was an amount of revenue which ought not to be sacrificed unless for the purpose of effecting a satisfactory arrangement of those duties. If we were not to place these duties on a basis advantageous to the great body of consumers, he thought it better to leave them as they at present stood; particularly when it was remembered that the right hon. Baronet refused to repeal the duty on cotton wool, which, unfettered, must give such ample scope to employment, and when it was intended to call upon the House to impose a new duty on coals. The House was aware that the consumption of coffee had of late years very greatly increased. The whole supply of British possessions was altogether insufficient to meet the demands of the consumers, and the consequence was, that foreign coffee, at the higher rate of duty, entered largely into the home consumption. That being the case, it was perfectly obvious, that the price of foreign coffee, at the higher duty, was that which regulated the price of British coffee, and the difference between the duty levied on British and foreign coffee was a bounty levied on the British consumer for the advantage of the colonial grower. That such was the effect of this tax, he believed that no Gentleman, acquainted with our system of taxation, would be prepared to deny. He was one of those who were persuaded that all those systems of bounty and protection were erroneous; but, while he argued that such was the case, he also admitted, that the practice of a long series of years ought not to be suddenly swept away. He did not ask the committee to take away the protection which colonial coffee had hitherto enjoyed: he did not say that considerable protection ought not to be given to the producers of that coffee: but what he maintained was, that the amount of protection proposed by her Majesty's Government, was calculated on an erroneous principle, if it was not altogether prejudicial to the interest of the producer. The Government proposed that the coffee of the British colonies should be admitted at 4d. a lb., which, with the other expenses, would raise the price to 39s. 2d. the cwt. Foreign coffee was to be admitted at 8d.the lb.; and adding in the same manner 5 per cent., the price would be 78s. Ad. the cwt. Now, what was the real value of the articles on which these duties were" imposed? He had in his hand a state ment, by which it was calculated that colonial coffee of the new growth was to be sold at 112s. to 117s. the cwt., while Cuba coffee, of an exactly similar description, was selling in bond at 78s. and 82s. the cwt.; the difference in' price being a charge on the British public. That was to say, that the superior kind of coffee, the produce of foreign countries, came into consumption at 100 per cent, duty on the full value, and had a differential duty to sustain of 50 per cent. He thought that such an amount of duty was extravagant; but when they came to an inferior description of coffee (that which entered materially into the consumption of the working classes) the case was far worse. A constituent of his purchased in bond St. Domingo coffee at 34s. the cwt., while British coffee of a not better description fetched from 68s. to 70s. the cwt. Now on this 1 coffee, worth in bond Ms. the cwt., a duty was proposed of 74s. 8d. That was a duty of 230 per cent, on the full value of the article, and a differential duty given as a bonus by the consumers of this inferior article to the British colonies of 115 per cent. He thought if the House considered for a moment what were the principles on which this tariff was recommended, they must conclude that such a scale of duties was altogether inconsistent with those principles, for that very evening he heard the right hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade assert, that 20 per cent., except in some special cases, was a fair duty on manufactured articles. And on this, which was not a manufactured article, but a raw produce, entering largely into the consumption of the poor, the proposal was not to tax it at 20 per cent., but 115 per cent, as against British coffee, and 230 per cent, on the full value of the article. This was certainly a proposition which it was impossible to maintain in argument. It was impossible that the reduction of duty could be resisted on the same grounds as those taken up against the change in the sugar duties brought forward at his side of the House; for apart from the fact, that a considerable proportion of coffee came from the eastern hemisphere, where slavery did not extensively exist, there was no country from which we might expect a greater produce, as the consequence of a moderate duty, than Hayti, with which it was obvious we might carry on a much more flourishing commerce if our present system were abandoned. It could not be said, that it was the interest of the colonies to have these duties kept up. Did any Gentleman seriously conceive, that the present enormous duty could be permanently maintained? He must further argue, that the amount of protection now proposed in the tariff was larger than that hitherto enjoyed. It was perfectly true, that Hayti and Brazil coffee had been subjected to a heavier duty than that now submitted; but it was notorious, that the Brazilian coffee at 9d. duty, was allowed to come in from the Cape of Good Hope as British coffee. The real protection was, therefore, the difference between 9d. and 6d., together with the expenses of the voyage to the Cape of Good Hope, whatever they might be. Now, he was perfectly ready to admit, that the gentlemen engaged in this trade were not always of the same opinion as to the expenses of this voyage; and he was quite prepared to hear his noble Friend, the Member for Liverpool, representing the views of his constituents, give a much higher charge than that which he was about to contend for. But it appeared by the evidence taken before the Import Duties' Committee, that the expenses of the coffee of Brazil and Hayti going to the Cape of Good Hope, did not exceed ¾d. a lb. The present protection to British coffee was, therefore, 3¾d. and not 4d.; the amount of protection given by the duties of4d. and 8d. The Ministers were, therefore, increasing a protection which at present was of an enormous amount. If it was supposed, that the colonies could not grow coffee without this enormous protection, the best policy was to wean them from the fallacy by degrees; for it was impossible to suppose, that our people would go on paying three times the price which the article ought really to fetch, for the purpose of maintaining our colonial interests. But if it was believed, that the colonies could grow such an article at a much smaller protection, it was obviously the interest of the colonies to bring down the price as low as possible. He thought if an unnatural stimulus were given to coffee, the produce in the course of a few years, under the present system, would exceed the consumption, and a depression naturally follow. As in many other cases, the artificial raising of the price far above the natural level, must in the end produce a great disadvantage to those who enjoyed the undue advantage. He next wished to know whether his motion could be resisted on the ground of revenue. He could scarcely believe, that the reduction of 1d. per lb. on foreign coffee would be resisted on the supposition that it must largely injure the revenue. As he had already stated, the foreign coffee regulated the price of the home produce, and, therefore, if 1d. per lb. were taken off, the consumer would derive an advantage, not only on the colonial, but on all the coffee that came into the market. The total amount of coffee consumed was 28,420,000 lbs. The reduction of 1d. per lb, would be a relief to the consumer of 118,000l, The loss to the revenue would not be proportioned to the gain of the consumer, and was only to be calculated on the smaller quantity of coffee introduced from foreign countries. Of the 28,420,000 lbs. of coffee, only 10,849,000 lbs. was the pro- duction of foreign countries. The loss on the latter quantity was 45,000l., while the consumer gained 118,000l. But he was persuaded that the revenue would suffer no loss whatever, because he was sure that the reduction of the duty would lead to a large increase of the consumption—to an increase which it might be safely calculated would cover the loss of 45,000l. He relied on the correctness of this calculation with the more confidence, because he believed that adulteration was at present carried on to an enormous extent, and of the 30,000,000lbs. consumed in the year, it was stated in a circular printed by the coffee growers, that 15,000,000lbs. were mixed with chickory, and such substances. Under these circumstances, his own opinion was, that it would be best to reduce the duty to 6d. on foreign, and 3d. on colonial coffee; but as he knew such a proposal would be met by the allegation that a great loss to the revenue must ensue, he thought it better to confine his amendment to the proposition that foreign coffee should be admitted at 1d. instead of 8d. the lb.

contended, that the general principle of the tariff could not be applied to the produce of tropical climates. He admitted that he did not resist this motion on the ground of loss to the revenue, though he must contend that the present duty was not an increase of protection. It was certainly true that the price of West-Indian coffee had increased since the promulgation of the tariff, but that increase was only of a temporary character. He acknowledged that the real guide in reducing the duty should not be the proportion of colonial to foreign protection, but the value of the article itself. He could only say that this was one of those articles, the reduction of duty on which affected materially our connection with foreign powers. He believed that our negotiations with the Brazils might be made to turn in a great measure on the admission of their coffee. Though he confessed the noble Lord had a strong ground for claiming the surrender of this duty at once, still he thought it was better to postpone the legislation until the measures proposed to be taken as to the admission of articles of British manufactures into other states were disposed of.

was glad to perceive that the resistance to this motion was one merely of time. It was of the highest importance, in a moral and social point of view, to encourage the consumption of coffee instead of spirits. He would vote for the noble Lord's proposition, and only regretted that it had not been carried further.

must admit, that the labour of slaves in the production of coffee was not so severe as that applied to the cultivation of sugar, and therefore he must forego the full advantage of the argument founded upon the considerations involved in the question of slavery. Like his right hon. Friend, he rested his opposition to the noble Lord's motion chiefly on the ground of the impropriety of throwing away the influence which the Government possessed over foreign powers, by retaining the duties until they saw a prospect of obtaining a reciprocal advantage by their reduction. It was the principle of philosophers that we should buy at the cheapest markets; but, unfortunately, we were not dealing with philosophers, and if we reduced duties without obtaining an equivalent, we should only remove a pressure from foreign governments, of which they would not be slow to avail themselves. At the present moment France contemplated an advance of duty on linen yarn. He ventured to predict, that if that proposition should be carried into effect, the nascent linen manufactures of France would be entirely ruined, and he had not the slightest doubt that his prediction would be fulfilled. He fully admitted the great importance of offering cheap and wholesome beverage to the people, with a view to induce them to substitute it for spirits, and he regretted on that account that he could not at the present moment consent to a greater reduction of the duty on coffee. The duties on coffee entered at present into our negotiations with foreign states, and he believed that if the committee should agree to the noble Lord's motion, they would throw away a great practical advantage.

thought that the Government were pursuing an unwise course in leaving so many duties unsettled. The coffee duties were now added to the list of several other duties which it was admitted would not be permanently maintained. This was a course of proceeding which subjected commercial transactions to great uncertainty. A considerable portion of the coffee at present consumed in this country was adulterated, but if the duty were reduced the adulterated article would be driven from the market, and in the end the revenue would be increased. He was informed, on good authority, that the price of Jamaica coffee was not likely to fall, and that the whole of the difference between the existing duties and those proposed by the Government would go into the pockets of the growers of colonial coffee.

wished the British Government to set the world an example of sound commercial policy, instead of pursuing a system of bargaining with foreign states respecting the reduction of duties. Nothing was more desirable than to create a greater demand for French produce in this country.

could have understood the objection raised by the right hon. Baronet relative to the coffee duties being the subject of negotiation with foreign countries if they had not touched them at all; but they had themselves proposed a reduction. What great harm, then, could arise from carrying the reduction further.

would vote for the noble Lord's proposition. If it should be found necessary to influence foreign powers, the Government could effect their object just as well by threatening to raise the duty again.

said, it was some satisfaction to know that from what had passed, the present enormous differential duties would not be permanently maintained. Still, as he thought that the arguments advanced in opposition to his motion were not valid, he would divide the committee upon the question.

The committee divided on the question that the blank be filled with 7 d.:—Ayes 48; Noes 81: Majority 33.

List of the AYES.

Ainsworth P.Forster, M.
Aldam, W.Gibson, T. M.
Barclay, D.Granger, T. C.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T.Greenaway, C.
Barnard, E. G.Grey, rt. hn. Sir G:
Blake, M. J.Howick, Visct.
Bowring, Dr.Johnstone, A.
Brocklehurst, J.Leader, J. T.
Brotherton, J.Mangles, R. D.
Browne, hon. W.Marsland, H.
Buller, E.Maule, rt. hon. F.
Busfeild, W.Mitcalfe, H.
Cobden, R.Morris, D.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E.Morison, Gen.
Duncan, G.O'Brien, W. S.
O'Connell, D.Staunton, Sir G. T.
O'Connell, J.Strutt, E.
Pechell, Capt.Thomely, T.
Pendarves, E. W. W.Villiers, hon. C. P.
Philips, M.Wawn, J. T.
Rundle, J.Wood, B.
Scholefield, J.Wood, C.
Scott, R.
Somerville, Sir W. M.TELLERS,
Stansfield, W. R. C.Hawes, B.
Stanton, W. H.Hume, J.

List of the NOES.

Antrobus, E.Hope, hon. C.
Arbuthnott, hn. H.Hussey, T.
Arkwright, G.Inglis, Sir R. H.
Baillie, Col.James, Sir W. C.
Baring, hon. W. B.Kemble, H.
Bateson, R.Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Botfield B.Knight, H. G.
Bramston, T. W.Lambton, H.
Burrell, Sir G. M.Legh G. C.
Chapman, A.Lindsay, H H.
Chelsea, Visct.Litton, E.
Chetwode, Sir J.Lockhart, W.
Clerk, Sir G.Lyall, G.
Clive, hn. R. H.Mackenzie, T.
Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.Mainwaring, T.
Collett, W. R.Martin, C. W.
Coote, Sir C. H.Masterman, J.
Cripps, W.Mundy, E. M.
Darby, G.Neville, R.
Douglas, Sir H.Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Duffield, T.Northland, Visct.
Eliot, LordPalmer, G.
Escott, B.Patten, J. W.
Forbes. M.Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.
Gaskell, J. MilnesPolhill, F.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.Rose, rt. hn. Sir G.
Godson, R.Round, C. G.
Gordon, hon. Capt.Rushbrooke, Col.
Goring, C.Ryder, hon. G. D.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.Sandon, Visct.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.Sheppard, T.
Grant, Sir A. C.Stanley, Lord
Grogan, E.Stewart, J.
Halford, H.Sutton, hon. H. M.
Hampden, R.Trench, Sir F. W.
Hanmer, Sir J.Vere, Sir C. B.
Harcourt, G. G.Vivian, J.
Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.Wilbraham, hn. R.
Henley, J. W.Young, J.
Hepburn, Sir T. B.TELLERS.
Hillsborough, Earl ofFremantle, Sir T.
Hodgson, R.Pringle, A.

Blank filled with 8 d.

called the attention of the House to the injustice of the proposed modification of duties to the holders of naturalised coffee in bond. They had imported their present stock on the faith of a law which had given them an advantage over the importers of foreign coffee. He moved to insert in the schedule, that coffee imported from any Bri- tish possession within the limits of the East India Company's charter, not being the produce thereof, being now in bond to arrive before the first day of August next, should be admitted at a duty of 7d. per lb.

was somewhat taken by-surprise, his noble Friend having altered his motion in a very essential manner. Even for the modified proposition, however, his noble Friend had made out no case. The holders of this description of coffee had placed themselves in their present position by an excess of specula-lion, and by taking advantage of a law not originally intended for their benefit.

supported the modified proposition of the noble Lord, and thought the case made out was particularly strong as related to coffee actually in bond, which must have been imported before the change in the duty could have been anticipated.

said, that the consumer had benefitted by the speculation, although it had been undertaken by private individuals for their own benefit, but he doubted whether the principle ought to be carried out beyond the coffee already in bond.

could not understand the distinction that had been endeavoured to be drawn in this case, nor what was the difference in the expense that had been incurred by those parties to that incurred by any other persons under a protective duty. The parties had had two years' notice of the intention of Government to alter the duties.

after stating that it was not on account of his opposition that the bill of the former Government was not proceeded with, said that the parties interested had had two years* notice that the alteration of these duties was under the consideration of Parliament. In the present case, advantage had been taken of the lax manner in which an act of Parliament had been framed, and he saw no ground for making a distinction. He had felt throughout that it would have been impossible to carry this tariff through the House with that general assent which it had received, had there not been a general impression that the Government were disposed to act with equity towards all the interests concerned. The Government had already affected the interests of the stone quarries without notice. Then on timber no drawback had been given, although the claim of the parties interested was a legitimate one, and the new duties were to come into operation on the 25th of October, which was only three months' notice. The holders of this coffee ought to be dealt with as alt the other parties had been, and on the same general principle. He felt it his duty to adhere to the proposition as originally made, for he did not feel satisfied that in this case any just ground had been made out for exception.

regretted, that the Government had opposed the modified proposition of the noble Lord, and contended, that the public had derived benefit from the speculation of the coffee holders.

The committee divided, on the question that the words be added to the Schedule. — Ayes 69; Noes 133-.—Majority 64.

List of the AYES.

Ainsworth, P.Kemble, H.
Aldam, W.Leader, J. T.
Barclay, D.Lyall, G.
Blake, M. J.Mangles, R. D.
Bowring, Dr.Marsland, H.
Bramston, T. W.Masterman, J.
Brocklehurst, J.Mitcalfe, H.
Brotherton, J.Mitchell, T. A.
Browne, hon. W.Morris, D.
Busfeild, W.Morison, Gen.
Byng, G.O'Brien, C.
Carew, hon. R. S.O'Connell, D.
Cobden, R.O'Connell, J.
Crawford, W. S.Ord, W.
Divett, E.Palmer, G.
Douglas, Sir H.Patten, J. W.
Duncan, G.Pechell, Capt.
Duncombe, T.Pendarves, E. W. W.
Ebrington, Visct.Russell, Lord J.
Evans, W.Scholefield, J.
Farnham, E. B.Stanton, W. H.
Ferguson, Col.Strutt, E.
Forbes, W.Thornley, T.
Forster, M.Tufnell, H.
Gibson, T. M.Villiers, hon. C.
Granger, T. C.Walker, R.
Grimsditch, T.Wallace, R.
Halford, H.Wawn, J. T.
Hay, Sir A. L.Wilbraham, hon. R. B.
Henley, J. W.Williams, W.
Hindley, C.Wilshere, W.
Howick, Visct.Wood, B.
Hughes, W. B.Worsley, Lord
Hume, J.TELLERS.
James, W.Sandon, Visct.
Johnston, A.Philips, M.

List of the NOES.

Allix, J. PAntrobus, E,

Arbuthnott, hon. H.Hodgson, R.
Archdall, Capt.Holmes, hon. W. A' Ct.
Arkwright, G.Hope, hon. C.
Bailey, J.Hornby, J.
Baillie, Col.Howard, Lord
Bankes, G.Howard, P. H.
Baring, hon. W. B.Hussey, T.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T.Irton, S.
Baskerville, T. B. M.Johnstone, H.
Bateson, R.Jones, Capt.
Bell, M.Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Blackburne, J. I.Knight, H. G.
Boldero, H. G.Knight, F. W.
Botfield. B.Lambton, H.
Broadley, H.Langston, J. H.
Bruce, Lord E.Legh, G. C.
Buller, E.Lincoln, Earl of
Buller, Sir J. Y.Lindsay, H. H.
Burrell, Sir C. M.Litton, E.
Chelsea, Visct.Lockhart, W.
Chetwode, Sir J.M'Geachy, F. A.
Christopher, R. A.Mackenzie, T.
Clayton, R. R.Marsham, Visct.
Clerk, Sir G.Martin, C. W.
Clive, hn. R. H.Meynell, Capt.
Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.Morgan, O.
Collett, W. R.Mundy, E. M.
Copeland, Ald.Neville, R.
Corry, rt. hon. H.Newry, Visct.
Cresswell, B.Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Cripps, W.Northland, Visct.
Currie, R.O'Brien, W. S.
Damer, hon. Col.O'Ferrall, R. M.
Darby, G.Ogle, S. C. H.
D'Israeli, B.Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Douglas, Sir C. E.Peel, J.
Douglas, J. D. S.Philips, G. R.
Duffield, T.Polhill, F.
Duncombe, hon. A.Pusey, P.
East, J. B.Richards, R.
Egerton, W T.Rolleston, Col.
Egerton, Sir P.Rose, rt. hon. Sir G.
Eliot, LordRound, C. G.
Escott, B.Rundle, J.
Esmonde, Sir. T.Rushbrooke, Col.
Ferguson, Sir R. A.Russell, J. D. W.
Filmer, Sir E.Ryder, hon. G. D,
Fleming, J. W.Sanderson, R.
Fuller, A. E.Scott, hon. F.
Gaskell, J. M.Seymour, Sir H. B.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.Sheppard T.
Glynne, Sir S. R.Somerset, Lord G.
Godson, R.Somerville, Sir W. M.
Gordon, hon. Capt.Stanley, Lord
Gore, hon. R.Stewart, J.
Goring, C.Stuart, H.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.Sutton, hon. H. M.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.Thesiger, F.
Grant, Sir A, C.Trench, Sir F. W.
Gregory, W. H.Turnor, C.
Grogan, E.Vere, Sir C. B.
Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.Vivian, J, E.
Hastie, A.White, H.
Hawes, B.Young, J.
Hepburn, Sir T. B.TELLERS.
Hinde, J. H.Fremantle, Sir T.
Hodgson, F.Pringle, A.

Duty on coffee agreed to.

On the question that the duty on Tea be 2 s. 1 d. a lb.

urged the propriety and advantage of a reduction of the duty on an article so rapidly increasing in consumption.

looking at the present position of affairs with China, and at the amount of revenue derived from tea, felt a reluctance to give any assurance on the part of the Government in respect to a reduction of the duty.

asked, why the Government did not propose to introduce a differential duty in favour of tea grown in British India?

was unwilling to adopt any step which would hazard the revenue derived from tea, and had some doubt as to the policy of encouraging the growth of Assam tea.

Resolution agreed to.

On the question that a duty of 16s. the cwt. be levied upon Corks squared for rounding,

proposed to reduce the duty upon cork imported in this state to 1s.. per cwt.

The committee divided on the question that the blank be filled with 1 s.—Ayes 81; Noes 137:—Majority 56.

List of the AYES.

Aldam, W.Gore, hon. R.
Barclay, D.Granger, T. C.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T.Grogan, E.
Berkeley, hon. C.Halford, H.
Blackstone, W. S.Hanmer, Sir J.
Blake, Sir V.Hastie, A.
Bowring, Dr.Hawes, B.
Broadley, H.Heneage, E.
Brotherton, J.Henley, J. W.
Browne, hon. W.Hinde, J. H.
Chapman, B.Hindley, C.
Christie, W. D.Hodgson, R.
Clayton, R. R.Hollond, R.
Colborne, hn. W. N. R.Howard, hon. E. G. G.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E.Hume, J.
Colville, C. R.Johnstone, Sir J.
Currie, R.Leader, J. T.
Curteis, H. B.Lockhart, W.
Drax, J. S. W. S. E.Lowther, J. H.
Ebrington, Visct.Mangles, R. D.
Ellis, W.Marsland, H.
Evans, W.Martin, J.
Farnham, E. B.Mitcalfe, H.
Ferguson, Col.Mitchell, T. A.
Forster, M.Morris, D.
Gill, T.Murphy, F. S.
Gordon, Lord F.Norreys, Sir D. J.
Gore, W. O.O'Brien, W. S, 3C2

Ogle, S. C. H.Saunton, Sir G. T
Paget, Lord A.Strutt, E.
Palmer, R. Talbot, C. R. M.
Pechell, Capt.Taylor, T. E.
Pendarves, E. W. W.Towneley, J.
Ponsonby, hn.C. F. C.Tufnell, H.
Pryse, P.Wallace, R.
Redington, T. N.White, H.
Rundle, J.Wilbraham, hon. R. B
Russell, Lord J.Williams, W.
Sandon, Visct.Worsley, Lord
Scholefield, J.TELLERS.
Somerville, Sir W. M.Duncombe, T.
Stanton, W. H.Wood, B.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.Ferguson, Sir R. A.
Adderley, C.Filmer, Sir E.
Ainsworth, P.Fleming, J. W.
Allix, J. P.Ffolliott, J.
Antrobus, E.Forbes, W.
Archdall, Capt.Forester, hon. G. C. W.
Bailey, J.Fuller, A. E.
Baillie, Col.Gaskell, J. M.
Bankes, G.Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.
Baring, hon. W. B.Gladstone, T.
Baskerville, T. B. M.Glynne, Sir S. R.
Bentinck, Lord G.Gordon, hon. Capt.
Beresford, MajorGore, W.R. O.
Bernard, Visct.Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Blackburne, J. I.Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.
Boldero, H. G.Granby, Marquess of
Botfield, B.Gregory, W. H.
Bramston, T. W.Grimsditch, T.
Brocklehurst, J.Grimston, Visct.
Brooke, Sir A. B.Hamilton, W. J.
Bruce, Lord E.Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.
Buckley, E.Hawkes, T.
Buller, Sir J. Y.Hepburn, Sir T. B.
Cardwell, E.Herbert, hon. S.
Chelsea, Visct.Hervey, Lord A.
Chetwode. Sir J.Hodgson, F.
Childers, J. W.Hornby, J.
Christopher, R. A.Howard, P. H.
Clerk, Sir G.Hughes, W. B.
Clive, hon. R. H.Hussey, T.
Cochrane, A.Hutt, W.
Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.Ingestrie, Visct.
Copeland, Ald.Irton, S.
Corry, right hon. H.Jermyn, Earl
Courtenay, LordJones, Capt.
Cripps, W.Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Damer, hon. Col.Knight, F. W.
Darby, G.Legh, G. C.
Denison, E. B.Lemon, Sir C.
Divett, E.Lincoln, Earl of
Douglas, J. D. S.Lindsay, H. H.
Douglas, Sir C. E.Litton, E.
Duncombe, hon. A.Mackenzie, W. F.
Duncombe, hon. O.M'Geachy, F. A.
East, J. B.Manners, Lord C. S.
Egerton, W. T.Manners, Lord J.
Egerton, Sir P.Marsham, Visct.
Eliot, LordMartin, C. W.
Escott, B.Meynell, Capt.
Estcourt, T. G. B.Miles, P. W. S.
Fellowes, E.Morgan, O.

Neeld, J.Shirley, E. J,
Newry, Visct.Somerset, Lord, G.
Nicholl, right hon. J.Stanley, Lord
Pakington, J. S.Stewart, J.
Patten, J. W.Stuart, H.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.Sturt, H. C.
Peel, J.Sutton, hon. H. M.
Plumptre, J. P.Taylor, J. A.
Polhill, F.Thesiger, F.
Pollock, Sir F.Thompson, M. Ald.
Pringle, A.Trench, Sir F. W.
Repton, G. W. J.Turnor, C.
Rushbrooke, Col.Waddington, H. S.
Russell, J. D. W.Wawn, J. T.
Ryder, hon. G. D.Whitmore, T. C.
Sanderson, R.Young, J.
Scott, hon. F.TELLERS.
Seymour, Sir H. B.Baring, H.
Sheppard, T.Fremantle, Sir T.

On the proposal that Straw hats or bonnets imported into this country should pay a duty of 8 s. 6 d. the lb.

thought, that they ought as much as possible to extend their commercial relations with Tuscany, and as he had reason to believe from statements made to him, that the proposed duty would amount to 35 per cent, he hoped the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government would consent in this case to the application, on the principle which he had laid down of an ad valorem duty of 20 per cent. He begged, therefore, to propose that an ad valorem duty of 20 per cent be substituted instead of the proposed duty of 8s.6d. per lb. on straw hats, and of 7s.6d. on straw platting.

acknowledged, that it was of great importance to encourage their commercial relations with Tuscany, but he did not think the Government of Tuscany would be dissatisfied with the change now proposed.

Amendment negatived.

The House resumed. Committee to sit again.

House adjourned.