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Commons Chamber

Volume 74: debated on Thursday 18 April 1844

House of Commons

Thursday, April 18, 1844

Minutes

BILLS Public—2° Detached Parts of Counties.

Private.—1° York United Gas Light Company (No. 2).

Reported.—Manchester and Leeds Railway (Bury Branch).

3° and passed: — Birkenhead Improvement; Glossop Market; Northern Coal Mining Company; Schuster's Naturalization.

PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Claude Hamilton, and other hon. Members, from Newtown Stewart, and 21 places, for Legalising Presbyterian Marriages) Ireland)— By Sir Philip Egerton, from Chester (3) and Lord J. Manners, from Birmingham, against Union of Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By Lord F. Egerton, and Mr. Fox Maule, from Glasgow (2), and Perth, for Abolition of Tests in Scotch Universities.—From Sunderland, against Tax on Coals for Metropolitan Improvements—By Lord H. Vane, from Hartlepool, for Repeal of Export Duty on Coals.—By Lord Ossulston, from Northumberland (2), against Repeal of the Corn Laws.— By Lord John Russell, from R. Atkinson, for Repeal of Duty on Linen, and on Tobacco— From Tea-dealers, for Reduction of Duty on Tea.—By Mr. Ainsworth, from Bolton, for Reduction of Tobacco Duties.—By Mr. F. Baring, and other hon. Members, (19 Petitions) against Charitable Pawn Societies Bill.—By Mr. Ludlow Bruges, from Staverton, and Mr. Mitchell, from Bridport (2), against Factories (No. 2) Bill; and by Lord John Russell, from Bradford, in favour of same.—By Mr. C. Berkeley, Viscount Duncan, and Mr. Ricardo, from Cheltenham, Bath, and the Potteries, against Masters and Servants Bill. —From Ross, for Alteration of Poor Relief Bill.—By Lord Dalmeny, from Inverkeithing, Dunfemline, and Leith, and by Mr. Rutherford, from Leith (2), and Portobello, and by an hon. Member, from Banff, against Prisons (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir Thomas Wilde, from Merchants respecting Carriage of Goods by Railways.—By Mr. Lockhart, from Hamilton, for bettering Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).

Hours of Labour in Factories

rose and spoke as follows;— Perhaps, Sir, it would be convenient were I to take this opportunity of stating to the House the course which I propose to pursue with regard to the Factories Regulation Bill. It was my original intention to have moved an instruction to the Committee, but your opinion has turned me from that course, inasmuch as I learn from you that to move an instruction to the Committee will not he strictly consistent with Parliamentary law; and you also inform me that I should not be able to move the insertion of any Clauses until all the Clauses of the Bill are disposed of in Committee. I therefore give notice that on the third reading of the Factories Regulation Bill I shall move the addition of Clauses to limit the hours of labour, on and after the 1st of October of the present year, for all young persons to eleven hours in each day, or sixty-four in the week, until the 1st of October, 1847; and after that period to impose a further limit to ten in each day, or fifty-eight in the week.

Public Business

said, it was now more than probable, that on Friday, the 26th, the House would have the Factories Bill before it, and he wished to ask the right hon. Baronet whether it would not be, therefore, necessary to postpone the Poor Law Amendment Bill, which stood fixed for that day, according to the arrangement made before Easter.

was unwilling to disturb the arrangements which fixed before the Easter recess the order of the business throughout the current month. Certainly, according to that arrangement the Poor Law Amendment Bill stood for Committee for Friday, the 26th. The House had heard what his noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire had proposed. He (Sir James Graham) was anxious to meet the noble Lord's convenience and the convenience of the House, although it could only be done by disturbing the arrangement made before Easter. If the House would consent to the course suggested by his noble Friend, he was disposed to think it might be the most convenient. If that course were assented to, he (Sir James Graham) should be able to answer the question of the hon. Member for Evesham, that the Bill would not come on till after the 6th of May, on which day his right hon. Friend would bring forward the question of the Bank Charter.

saw no objection to the arrangement proposed. With respect to the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, he supposed that if the Factories Bill should not take up too long a time on the second reading, the right hon. Gentleman would move the second reading of the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill on Monday. With regard to any arrangement for bringing on the question of Banking on Tuesday, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not, as a great many Notices of Motion stood for it.

said, that the noble Lord would see the position in which he (Sir R. Peel) was placed in consequence of his acquiescing in proposals for the postponement of certain business which had been fixed before Easter. He had intended at that period that the Irish Registration Bill should have been brought forward on Friday next, but in consequence of the request of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wyse)he had agreed to postpone the Bill, on the double ground that it had not been generally circulated throughout Ireland, and that there would not be an attendance of Irish Members sufficient to ensure a full discussion. He gave way solely on these grounds stated by the right hon. Gentleman as the basis of his request, yet erroneous inferences had been drawn from his acquiescence in the proposal, that Government wished to shrink from going on with the Bill, than which nothing could be more unfounded.

could confirm the accuracy of the statement just made by the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. He had not appealed to him for the postponement of the second reading of the Irish Registration Bill on any other grounds. Those grounds he thought amply sufficient, and the right hon. Baronet, on consideration, seemed to be of the same opinion. He had not drawn, in any observations he had made, the inference to which the right hon. Baronet had adverted. He had not ascribed to the Government any intention of shrinking from the Bill.

Subject at an end.

Quarter. Sessions in Cities and Boroughs

hoped that his hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich would consent to have the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Quarter Sessions, Cities and Boroughs Bill discharged. He had received from the Recorders of several large cities, in which Quarter Sessions were held, representations to the effect that any legislation on the subject would be inexpedient, and that it would be much better to leave it to the competent authorities. He admitted, that the power of adjournment had lately been exceeded by some of the Recorders, but public attention had been now drawn to the fact, and it was to be hoped that this would be attended with salutary consequences. He was disposed to think that the law, as it now stood, would be more convenient than any alteration.

said, when he first moved to bring in the Bill, he was impressed with the idea that some measure was necessary, but after what the right hon. Gentleman had stated, he was disposed to think that the matter would be better left in the hands of the authorities. He should therefore move that the Order of the Day be discharged.

was glad the hon. Gentleman had acceded to the recommendation of the right hon. Baronet, nor would he have spoken now, but for the statement made by the hon. Gentleman on a former occasion. He was bound to say that the statement of the hon. Gentleman respecting the Recorder of the borough of Worcester was not borne out by the facts of the case. There had been but four instances of adjournment; the first was before the Recorder received his office, the second was by an error of the parties in the case, the third was by consent of the persons interested, and the fourth had been occasioned by the state of public business.

said he must maintain the accuracy of his former statement regarding the Court of the Recorder of Worcester. The facts of the case were notorious. He had derived his information from official quarters, and he was prepared to prove the perfect accuracy of everything he had stated to the House respecting that Judge's conduct.

Order discharged.

Charitable Pawn Societies Bill

moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Charitable Pawn Societies Bill.

suggested, that the better course would be to appoint a Committee of Inquiry into this subject, as great alarm had been created among those whose interests would be affected by this Bill.

thought it desirable, in the present state of this question, that the Bill should not be proceeded with. Government were at this moment engaged in collecting information on the subject, and the House would be better able to deal with it when they should be in possession of the results of the inquiry.

would not persevere with the Bill after what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman.

Order of the Day discharged.

Agricultural Statistics

rose to move, pursuant to notice,

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, representing that in the opinion of this House, it is desirable to obtain authentic information upon all matters connected with the Agriculture of the United Kingdom; that this information is altogether deficient, so that at this time even the extent of land under cultivation and the amount of its produce are subjects only of vague conjecture; that the total absence of all Statistical knowledge in reference to this important subject has at various times proved detrimental to the public interests; and praying Her Majesty to devise measures for supplying to Parliament, from time to time, statements of the breadth of land under cultivation for each species of produce respectively, and the amount of produce derived from the same; together with such information as will exhibit, as far as practicable, a perfect view of the Agricultural capability and production of the United Kingdom."

It would not only be practicable, the hon. Member said, but easy to obtain the information he desired, and it would be useful to the agricultural and commercial classes, and conducive to the welfare of the whole community. It was not necessary for him to say one word on the general advantages of statistical information, not merely to philosophers and political writers, but to practical statesmen. If facts were not within reach, estimates and conjectures were resorted to, and Parliament had already recognised the great utility of collecting facts by the expense often incurred, and the trouble taken to procure them. He might instance the expense and trouble of obtaining the numbers of the people, their wealth to a certain extent, and their general resources. If it were desirable to ascertain such a fact as the numbers of the people, it could not be denied that it was also desirable to ascertain their progress in the various branches of productive industry. If there were any branch of productive industry on which it was more necessary to obtain accurate statistical information than another, it was Agriculture; and the importance was not merely that of placing within the reach of Parliament certain facts on which legislation might be founded, but it applied directly to the parties immediately interested. There might be many hon. Gentlemen advocates like himself of free trade, who would think that asking for information rather savoured of interference, and unquestionably it might have that tendency; but he begged to remind them that interference had not been prevented by ignorance and uncertainty: if Parliament would insist upon regulating matters of trade by Statute, it was at least more desirable to have facts within reach than to legislate upon mere speculation and conjecture. Having made this remark, by way of parenthesis, he might add that the statistical information he wished to obtain would be valuable to all who were directly concerned in different branches of our national industry: they would thus be in possession of facts peculiarly relating to and affecting their interests, and there could be no doubt that the misemployment of capital and labour had frequently arisen from ignorance and want of information. These arguments applied more particularly to Agriculture; and what he asked the House was, that it should call upon Government to devise measures for supplying Parliament with accurate statements of the quantity of land under cultivation, and the amount of its produce. What would be the result of such information? The problem of proportion between food and population would at once be solved. The people had been numbered, but still there existed no means of knowing the amount of food produced and consumed. The quantity introduced from abroad was partly known, and by carrying the inquiry further, legislators would be able to compare the relative increase of food and population in different years. As he had mentioned the subject of food and population, and did not intend to introduce the question of the Corn Laws, he wished to guard himself against being misunderstood. It might be supposed that he advocated the repeal of the Corn Laws as a sort of contingent measure, and placed his support of a free-trade in corn on the ground that Great Britain did not grow enough for her inhabitants. If she grew ten times as much he should be just as zealous an advocate for free-trade in corn, because he looked upon it as a civil right. He considered freedom of exchange a civil right, that the merchant importer had as good a right to sup. ply the market with Corn by the operations of trade if he could, as the farmer had to supply it by the operations of agriculture, and should deem the information he asked quite as valuable if free-trade in corn were established, as under the present restrictive system. At the same time he could not conceal from himself, that under existing circumstances, the foreign Corn trade being interrupted, the community had a sort of equitable claim to know what was the state of cultivation, and what was the amount of the produce of the soil. He apprehended, that the information he sought would be eminently useful to agriculturists; for if they had the means of knowing the amount of produce at different times in the country they would possess data to enable them to apply with better judgment their skill and labour to cultivation. This information was now utterly wanting, for there did not exist the smallest means of learning what was the extent of land in cultivation, or what was the amount of the chief articles produced. There were geographical and trigonometrical surveys of the country, but nothing which rendered his Motion unnecessary; there was a sort of statement in existence, but what did it amount to? It was made by a Mr. Couling, some twenty years ago, before the Emigration Committee, in the year 1827, but to obtain correct information was a matter much beyond the reach of any individual, or of any local investigation. Many of the most eminent writers upon political economy, upon agricultural science, and upon the social improvement of the people, had regretted the total absence of such information. Mr. Porter, whose name would carry weight with the House, and who had written a work called "The Progress of the Nation," had, on this account, been prevented from giving such an account of the progress of Agriculture as he would otherwise have been able to furnish. Mr. M'Culloch also, another eminent writer, had lamented the total absence of information; and it would not be difficult to multiply the list, nor to point out the evils which the absence of such information produced. It was no small evil to have conflicting statements made through the country on a subject so vital as the relation of the quantity of food to the amount of the population, since such statements were likely to produce a strong effect upon the audiences to whom they were addressed. In this House, resolutions had been actually passed, founded upon nothing better than conjecture; and to give hon. Members a notion of the manner in which people were misled, owing to their ignorance of the truth on this subject, he would read a short extract from a speech by Lord Essex, made at an Anti-League Meeting, as reported in the Morning Post. His Lordship said, that

"The Anti-Corn-Law League had done some good, since it had roused the farmers to stand up in their own defence, and it would no doubt urge them to make further exertions to increase the produce of the soil. He was of opinion that they were not entirely ignorant of the capabilities of the soil; and although the population had nearly doubled, yet, with a small importation of foreign corn they had provided sufficient food for that increased population, and there was every reason for believing that by the improvements that were going on in the science of Agriculture, the Corn Laws would eventually become a dead letter, and that the farmer would be able to sell his corn at such a price, and in such quantity, as would repay him for his labour and capital."

Here was a statement made with the utmost confidence, that the quantity of corn grown would be fully equal to the increased population, and that improvements in Agriculture would soon convert the Corn Laws into a dead letter. Other persons, with different views, entertained very different opinions, and at all events, the direct contradiction established the importance of ascertaining the truth. He would mention another evil arising out of the absence of information, Mr. Porter, in his work "On the Progress of the Nation," noticed a remarkable fact, that on one occasion with a bad harvest and a great deficiency of corn, the price of grain had nevertheless fallen. How had this fall, and the consequent loss to the farmer been produced, but by the want of knowledge of the quantity of corn actually in the country? Mr. Porter alluded to the years 1837 and 1838; the harvest of 1837 was most deficient, and the stock of corn in hand was more nearly exhausted than it had been in the memory of perhaps any man living, and yet a fall in price had occurred, clearly showing that ignorance of the real state of the case had occasioned a heavy loss, first to the farmer, and afterwards to the community, by the sudden rise which followed. This evil would have been entirely avoided if the statistical information he wished to obtain had been accessible. But it had been frequently stated that low prices were caused by the want of power in the consumer to purchase, and sometimes by the quantity of grain in the country; but how could the truth be known in each case without such information as his Motion had in view? It would throw much light on many political questions if an appeal could be made to what had been called the unerring logic of numbers. Take such a distinguished writer as Mr. Tooke; the data in his history of prices were, after all, of necessity to some extent founded upon conjecture; and an eminent agriculturist had written to him (Mr. M. Gibson), stating that prices had sometimes risen when the quantity of grain in the market was greatest, and that they had sometimes fallen when the quantity was smallest—all this from ignorance of facts. He should have no difficulty in finding ample authority for his Motion, and, addressing himself first to landed gentlemen, he would refer them to the Report on agricultural distress in 1816. One of the suggestions made by their own witnesses was, that to prevent the recurrence of distress, a system of Agricultural Statistics ought to be provided; in short, that farmers ought to enjoy as a guide to their operations the same means of information as merchants. Upon this point he had made one or two extracts from the Report, and he might observe that his attention had been directed to it by an excellent pamphlet, afterwards published by the Speaker, who had been Chairman of the Committee. In that pamphlet he found the following remarks:—

"It was impressed upon the Committee that it would be of infinite importance to have accurate statistical information at some of the Government offices, for instance at the Board of Trade, of the quantity of land in each parish employed in grain cultivation, stating the number of acres sown with wheat, barley, and oats, and the probable produce of the next harvest. I fully concur in this opinion; and I conceive that such a plan may be advantageously grafted on the present division of England into parochial unions, and may also be adapted to the Scotch counties, and baronies in Ireland, and that intelligent officers could be found who might furnish this information at a comparatively trifling expense. The publication of these returns periodically in the London Gazette, for the information of persons engaged in the corn trade, would tend to lessen speculation, and to regulate the supply according to the demand, thereby reducing those elements of fluctuation in price which are so fatal to the interests of the farmer."

The opinion there so well stated had led him (Mr. Gibson) to look into the evidence itself, and he there found that the hon. Member for Somersetshire asked Mr. G. Webb Hall,

"What remedies he would propose to meet agricultural depression? (Mr. Hall said in answer amongst other things.) Another thing I would state to be a better system of Agricultural Statistics. We are in the most profound ignorance of the quantities of things. We have calculations which in my opinion are not worth one farthing; and if the machinery of the Poor Law Commissioners might be made conducive to that end, I think Parliament would know the situation of the farmers more conclusively than they do at present."

The right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had also put several leading questions to witnesses, and from their character, he (Mr. M. Gibson) should have been led to infer that he was favourable to the establishment of a system of Agricultural Statistics. The subsequent questions and answers by Mr. Saunders appeared in the report:—

"Sir J. Graham: Do you think that it would be desirable to have more accurate statistical information annually furnished to the Government, and published by the Government, with regard to the precise quantities of land sown in the different parishes in England with wheat, barley, and oats?—Mr. Saunders: I cannot conceive a duty more imperative upon the Government than to ascertain the quantity of food that the people are likely to be supplied with.

"Sir J. Graham: Would not such information, accurately obtained, and periodically supplied by the Government, be of equal advantage to the speculator in corn and to the producer of it?—Mr. Saunders: I do not know anything that would tend so much to produce steadiness of price.

"Sir J. Graham: With reference to the question as to its being desirable to have parochial returns of the corn culture of the land within each parish, do you think that such returns could be obtained from Ireland?—Mr. Saunders: Yes, I think I gave sufficient proof of it yesterday.

"Sir J. Graham: Then, if the Legislature were to endeavour to enforce such returns, you think they might be obtained?—Mr. Saunders; I am persuaded they could, and it appears to me strange how Parliament can consent to remain in the dark upon a subject of such great importance; they know nothing about the statistics of corn, perhaps the most important subject of all others."

He might be told that it would be very difficult to obtain the desired information, and that he was asking the House to pledge itself to a wild impracticable scheme, without suggesting any plan for carrying it into execution. He did not think it would become him to suggest a plan: he ought to leave it to the Executive Government, because they knew what facilities they possessed for procuring the information desired, and what means they had in their power, and were necessarily much better able than himself to devise a practicable and efficacious plan for carrying out his proposition. In refraining, he was sure that he was taking a course most likely to harmonize with the feelings of the agricultural interest, because to a certain extent, at least, the present Ministers enjoyed their confidence, and would not be likely to do anything obnoxious to the farmers, or to the landed gentry. He contented himself with calling upon the House to address the Crown, which amounted to no more than asking Ministers to make an attempt to obtain the required information; and he appealed to the right hon. President of the Board of Trade to allow the Motion to pass. It had not been uncommon for Members to move addresses, and for Ministers afterwards to found measures upon them. What he recommended was not impracticable, and in the United States such a system was actually in operation. The Report from the hon. W. H. Ellsworth, the American Commissioner of Patents, dated January, 1843, contained these expressions:—

"The annual Agricultural Statistics, comprising the tabular estimate of the crops for the past year, with accompanying remarks and appendix, will be found subjoined. The value of this document to the whole country, from year to year, it is believed, would justify a much larger appropriation from the Patent Office Fund for this purpose. The diffusion of such information may save millions to the laborious tiller of the soil, besides adding directly to his means of export many millions more."

The tabular statement here referred to, annually laid before Congress, was more extensive than anything he called upon Ministers to procure, and he would follow up what he had just read by a note subjoined to the Report of the Commissioner of Patents, not written by him, but by some other Gentleman who had occupied a seat in the United States Legislature. It was in these terms:—

"We want a system of national legislation for this purpose, that shall be effectual to collect, periodically, in every state of our union, and concentrate to one point, at the seat of the national government, precise, accurate, authentic, and official statistical information upon all the annual results of the hus- band man's industry—showing to everybody at all times, as near as human watchfulness can, upon a scale so extended, all the elements of both the demand and the supply of every article of produce that enters into our markets. With information of this description, published and disseminated through the land by Congress, with only half the profusion that partizan documents are spread by each and every party, an entire revolution in the condition and productiveness of the husbandman's labour would be effected. There would be system, certainty, and confidence, pervading the outlays and the income of the husbandman."

He might also be told that the farmers would object to state the amount of their produce, that they would fear future taxation might grow out of it, and that mere statistical information was not the real object of inquiry. On this point he would quote the authority of Mr. Tremenhere, who had procured information from five parishes, and who had published it in a work which was no doubt in the hands of many hon. Gentlemen; he said—

"The inquiries of which the results are embodied in this paper, have been met by the farmers, with a very few exceptions, in a frank and friendly spirit, and a disposition has been rarely evinced to withhold the information solicited. Should the Government ever resolve to institute similar inquiries on a comprehensive and systematic plan, it is believed that although the undertaking might at first encounter poposition and mistrust, suspicions would be gradually allayed and prejudices subdued."

A return he had moved for, and which had been laid upon the Table, showed that the information required could be obtained, and the experiment tried by Mr. P. Thomson, while President of the Board of Trade, when he applied to the Clergy of Bedfordshire, proved that the difficulties were at all events not insurmountable. The authority of the law might be necessary, but it was well known that the quantity of hops grown was ascertained by means of a statute. True it was, that hops were subject to an Excise duty, and that was the reason for the law; but he wanted no Excise duty on home-grown wheat: his simple object was information, and he for one was most strongly opposed to a tax upon home-grown wheat; he disliked the Excise system generally, but to an Excise upon grain he would not consent. He trusted, therefore, that no apprehension of the kind would be felt by the agriculturists, and that Ministers would not resist the Motion. Nothing would be more easy than for the farmers to make returns of the quantities of the different sorts of grain produced by their land, and the extent of land under cultivation. Looking back to some of the advantageous results of obtaining information on other subjects, he could not doubt that important benefits would be produced by the knowledge he proposed to put in the possession of everybody. Objections had been made to taking the Census: it was said that no good would be done by ascertaining the numbers of the people; yet an important advantage had arisen out of it. When Dr. Price wrote his treatise on Annuities, and subsequently, in 1780, he contended that the population of England had been constantly diminishing since the Revolution, and that at the period when he wrote it did not amount to 5,000,000. If the Census had never been established, the public might still have supposed Dr. Price to have been correct in his calculations, whereas the decennial census showed that the population had been constantly and very extensively on the increase. The hon. Gentleman concluded with moving his Resolution.

said, that though there were reasons of a practical nature which rendered it inexpedient to accede to the Motion at the present time, yet he was ready fully to admit its extreme importance, and the desirableness of carrying out the object so ably stated by the hon. Gentleman at the earliest possible period. He even thought the hon. Gentleman had in one point not done justice to the advantages to be derived from the establishment of a good system of agricultural statistics, which he was of opinion would be very great indeed. The hon. Gentleman quoted the opinion of the most competent man in the Kingdom to give an opinion, Mr. Saunders of Liverpool, to the effect, that steadiness of price would be materially promoted by a good system of agricultural statistics; but the hon. Gentleman added that he did not himself think any great effects of that kind would be produced. He, however, was of opinion, not indeed that perfect uniformity would be attained, however complete the information might be, but that a great approximation to steadiness of prices would be the result of a good system of agricultural statistics. The hon. Gentleman had fairly stated this question as one of common interest, affecting particularly neither one class nor another, but for the benefit of all parties. Indeed, if there were any distinction to be drawn, it was more for the benefit of the growers of corn than of any other class; for at present they had nothing to rely upon except statements of the most vague and general description—statements which in many instances did not rest upon an actual examination of the crops, or if upon examination—it was only of a local and partial character, as with corn dealers living in great mercantile cities, they were best able to bear with imperfect information— for inadequate as the means of knowledge were, still the means which were at the command of the corn merchants from their intercommunications with each other, and from their extended connexions all over the country put them on a much superior footing to the farmers in this respect, because the latter were more isolated, and had not the same means of acquiring information as those engaged in commercial transactions. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would readily believe him when he stated that there was an unfeigned anxiety on the part of the Government, that information of this nature should be produced. But there were many who would view with suspicion any legislative attempt to procure the information, and they ought to be very cautious of making demands on private persons to procure information; and it appeared to him that the hon. Gen-man had framed his Motion on larger terms than the House would think it right to adopt. It was too comprehensive, and was calculated to excite apprehension of an intention of scrutinising private affairs, and of inquiries into matters of account, such as the cost of productions, &c. The terms of the Motion would, therefore, require to be somewhat more limited before the House could adopt it. The hon. Gentleman had referred to the attempt made by the late Lord Sydenham, in 1836, to obtain similar information, but that attempt completely failed, for out of 156 clergymen to whom his queries were addressed twenty-seven only replied. Therefore, considered as an experiment to obtain these particulars from voluntary information, the result was not encouraging. The Government had been axious to obtain this information, had tried several means, but had hitherto failed, from the deficiency of the machinery to which they were enabled to resort. The Government had at one time thought that the labours of the Tithe Commissioners would have gone nigh to supply the desired information, and no doubt much knowledge on the subject was derivable from that source; but there was this very serious disadvantage connected with the Tithe Commission, in this respect that the accounts they might furnish would supply no simultaneous statement of the sowing and the crops throughout the kingdom, which was precisely what was wanted. Their accounts no doubt, would exhibit with very great, with perfect accuracy, the sowing and the crops in different districts, in different years, but this would not answer the purpose. The object to be attained was a full, a comprehensive, and regular statement of the breadth of land sown throughout the kingdom, the crops produced and so on, for the information of those whose business it was watch to the markets. The parochial officers had been thought of, but mature consideration made it tolerably certain that the object was not be attained through their medium. It had, then, appeared to Government, that the most efficient plan would be to seek to obtain the information by the machinery which was under the control of the New Poor Law Commissioners, and communications had been entered into with that Board on the subject. The Commissioners had represented various difficulties of a practical kind, and it remained to be seen whether these could be overcome, or what other plan could be devised. The hon. Gentleman would thus see that the object he desired was also anxiously desired by the Government, and that the only reason why it had not already been carried into effect was, that the matter was surrounded with practical difficulties which the Government was earnestly seeking to obviate. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would consent to withdraw his Motion. If the hon. Gentleman should decide otherwise, it would be his duty to meet it by moving the previous question, as he wished, while declining to accede to it now, for the reasons he had stated, to avoid meeting it with a direct or hostile negative, as the object was one which the Government was most anxious to effect at the earliest practical moment. Whatever course the hon. Gentleman adopted, he could assure him and the House that the Government had been doing everything in their power to secure the object in view, and that they would not relax in their efforts until it was effected.

would not prolong the discussion. He thought the object of the Motion most desirable, and did the means exist by which that object could be achieved, he would support it. As far as ascertaining the breadth of land under cultivation, it was comparatively easy, but that was only one part of the hon. Gentleman's object. The most difficult portion of the information was to ascertain exactly the quantity of the produce, and he could not see, at present, any real practical mode of acquiring that information. The quantity of corn reaped even would not suffice, as it afforded no certain indication of the yield when it came to be thrashed, nor of the quantity and quality of the flour that it would produce. It was most desirable for the farmer to know the actual quantity of corn grown in this country, as such knowledge would insure steadiness of prices, which was infinitely more valuable to the agriculturist than fluctuating prices. But to ascertain this there was extreme difficulty. They could not leave it to the farmer to make a return of the quantity which he produced, for it was not for his interest to do so. If in any one or two years he produced four quarters per acre on land which had previously grown but three, he might fear lest his landlord would say, "Your land is more productive than I imagined, and I must therefore raise your rent." The interest of the farmers, therefore, would be to underrate, and to furnish low returns. The only way appeared to be the appointment of public officers, and to send public officers all over the country would be an enormous expense. Representing as he did, a purely agricultural constituency, he could assure the hon. Gentleman that he cordially assented to the object of his Motion, provided only some practical plan could be devised for obtaining accurate information.

also thought, that after what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman, his hon. Friend had better withdraw his Motion.

was quits ready to withdraw his Motion, on the understanding that Government would use their best endeavours to carry out the object.

Motion withdrawn.

House adjourned at seven o'clock.