inquired of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, under whose orders the metropolitan police had acted at the Epsom races, whether under orders direct from the Home-office, or from the police Commissioners, or of the local magistrates? He did not complain of the orders for the suppression of gambling and thimble-rigging so much as he complained of the unjustifiable interference with the throwing of sticks at boxes set on other sticks, which was a game of dexterity, and the undue interference with the harmless sports of the people.

was not sorry that the hon. Member had asked the question, and he would state the circumstances under which he was responsible. The House was aware that at an early period of the Session a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the question of gambling and racing. The Report, which had been presented on the 20th of the present month, was, he believed, in the hands of Members; at any rate he was cognizant of the nature of that Report, in which there was a strong passage on the pernicious extent to which gambling was carried on at race courses. In the execution of his duty he had called the attention of the Police Commissioners to the extent to which gambling was carried on within the metropolis—an extent unknown in the other great cities of Europe, and to an extent most dangerous to the public. Having taken measures for its suppression in the metropolis, he had also thought it his duty, in conformity with the Report of the Committee of the House, to call the especial attention of the Police Commissioners to the gambling carried on at race courses. He certainly was responsible for the directions which had been given to the Police Commissioners to interfere with the gambling in question on the race-course of Epsom. He also gave them directions to communicate with the local Magistracy, together with instructions to announce their intention of carrying out the laws. The Police Commissioners did communicate with the local magistrates. There was not any undue interference on the part of the Police Commissioners with the amusements of the people, but nothing could be more unjust than the play at those games of chance. In fact, these games were not so much games of chance as games of perfect certainty and of robbery He could produce some of the dice taken by the police in the gambling houses. There they were (presenting the dice in his hand across the table), and they were open to inspection of hon. Members conversant with the subject. They were not loaded dice, but perfectly correct in every respect, except that with one set it was impossible to throw deuce ace, and with another set one would throw 11 and 12 with equal certainty, and certain other numbers were omitted or repeated more than once. Also with respect to roulette, the chances were equally against the party playing; so much so that they could not be considered games of chance, but perfect acts of pillage and robbery. Having interfered to execute the law, he was sure he should not be blamed. He could not conceive more dishonourable proceedings than the conduct such games involved; and in this country there was no source of sorrow, and ruin, and crime producing such certain and fatal effects, as that growing out of the disposition to gambling of late years. That disposition had grown to a most alarmingly dangerous extent, and he certainly had thought it his duty to carry into execution the law on the subject. He had not gone one step beyond the law, and until he saw some expression of opinion on the part of that House adverse to the course he had pursued, he should take every means placed in his power by the law for the purpose of checking, he had almost said of exterminating, this dangerous propensity.

All that had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct, except in one point. It was not correct that the Report of the Committee was in the hands of hon. Members. As a Member of the Committee, he begged to say the right hon. Gentleman was fully borne out in what he had done by the Report of the Committee. However, the question of his hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham had not, in one point, been answered—viz., why the police had just put down the amusement of throwing with sticks? The sport of throwing with sticks was one which the Committee had especially pointed out as being fit to be exempted from being interfered with by the police. Some hon. Gentlemen on the Committee had declared that they were great adepts in the practice, and if the orders of the right hon. Gentleman had gone to put that down, he had exceeded the recommendations of the Committee.

said the right hon. Gentleman had not answered his question; that question did not refer to the gambling booths or thimble rigs about which the right hon. Baronet had made such a flourish. What he asked was, whether the order was intended to apply to amusements of the people totally unconnected with the people.

thought he had distinctly answered the hon. Member's question. The police did not act under his direction; they were only instructed to carry out the existing law. If it would be more satisfactory he would read the letter he had addressed to them. [The right hon. Baronet then read the letter, stating that he (Sir James Graham) had had his attention drawn to the gambling carried on at and during the races of Epsom, and other places, where the police were in the habit of attending for the purpose of preserving order; and he desired them to take the necessary steps for enforcing the law against the parties offending against it. With reference to the races about to take place at Epsom, the police would put themselves in communication with the local authorities; and if they should fail in obtaining; their assistance, they would then proceed to carry the law into effect,] Thus it would be seen that they were directed to carry into effect the existing law against gambling; the law was not peculiar to the metropolitan police district, it was the general law throughout England, and he trusted that not only the metropolitan police, but that throughout England, the local magistrates would endeavour to carry the law into effect.

again asked if the prohibition was to apply to the amusements he had named?

said if they were pointed out under the existing law it would be carried strictly into effect.

seeing the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests in his place, wished to put a question to him with respect to the public dinner to be given in Trafalgar-square to the brave veterans of Greenwich Hospital, the companions in arms of the gallant Nelson. He believed that great expense had been incurred by the committee, as the steamer had been hired to bring them up the river, and preparations had been made at a neighbouring hotel. At a very late period yesterday the committee was suddenly informed that the dinner could not take place. He was anxious to hear any explanation the noble Lord might have to offer.

said, he could not give any satisfactory answer without explaining shortly what took place with reference to the subject. An application was made to him in September or October last for leave to have a dinner given in Trafalgar-square to the Greenwich Pensioners. At that time the whole area was boarded round, and the public were shut out from the space. As he understood that the dinner was supported by the authorities of Greenwich Hospital and the Board of Admiralty, as well as by the committee for erecting the column, he gave the permission required. He subsequently received an application to permit the dinner to be postponed till the 2nd of April, and he afterwards received another application for its postponement to this day, but in the interval the square had been opened to the public, and a deficiency having been discovered in the article used for a portion of the pavement, he could not allow the dinner to take place. He, therefore, wrote to the committee, not yesterday, but ten days ago, stating that though unwilling, he was obliged to withdraw his sanction. He also felt that great inconvenience would result from such a dinner being held in the centre of the town, and in such a public place. He had therefore withdrawn his assent for the present, and could not promise to renew it for a future day.

called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to a Bill which, although only a Private Bill, deserved some explanation. He alluded to the Manchester Bonding Warehouse Bill, allowing inland bonding warehouses. He had himself endeavoured to carry a Bill for establishing inland bonding warehouses; but he never could persuade the right hon. Gentleman to accede to it. His question was, on what principle were the Government disposed to act? Were they disposed to grant a similar right to any town that would accede to the terms to which Manchester had agreed, and pay the increased expenses incurred in the Custom-house department? He was very far from objecting to this Bill; he was very glad to see the principle introduced into legislation, but it was due, in reference to a Bill of such great importance, that the country in general, and the towns seeking similar advantages, should know the views and intentions of the Government.

should have thought that the Bill itself sufficiently explained the views of the Government. It was not certainly within the intention of the Government to accede to a general inland bonding, but they were desirous of making an experiment in the case of Manchester, by allowing Manchester to have bonding warehouses on payment of the expenses. He had great doubts of the success of that experiment, and on its result would very much depend the course which the Government would take.

wished to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, relative to the illegal imprisonment of three persons at Nottingham, from the Sunday till Wednesday. A gamekeeper, attended by a dog, saw three persons walking on a footpath; he said that he had previously seen them in a field in which there was no footpath. These persons threw stones at him. He knocked one down with a stick, he set his dog at another, and so got him down, and then set his dog at the third, who was also got down. He then took the three men to his employer's house, who was a magistrate, but who would not interfere; and was desired to take them to Nottingham gaol, where they were detained without any process or warrant. The question, therefore, which he wished to ask, was, whether, before the House met again, the right hon. Gentleman would cause inquiry to be made into the circumstances of this case, and inform the House of the result?

replied, that no complaint whatever of this transaction had been made to the Home Office, except the information derived from the hon. Member. If any illegal act had been committed there were ample remedies for redress.

wished to explain the reasons why it was not his intention to renew his notice of Motion with respect to the Universities, and why he had persevered in bringing forward his Motion last evening, when, owing to its being Epsom week, and to so many Members having left town for the Whitsuntide recess, there would necessarily be a thin attendance. He had arranged with the hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Oxford, not to bring forward the Motion after the 13th of June, when the hon. Baronet had made arrangements for going abroad. And in return, the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford said, he would use his influence with the hon. Gentleman opposite to pre- vent any such interruption to the debate as took place last night. It was quite unnecessary for him to say, that the hon. Baronet fulfilled his promise to the utmost. But he (Mr. Christie) was sorry that he had placed more reliance upon the influence of the hon. Baronet with Members on the opposite side of the House than he was justified in placing. Several of his hon. Friends had asked him if they might safely go to dinner, and he told them that he thought they might. But he had something else to rely upon. He did rely on what he conceived—perhaps erroneously conceived—would be only a proper return from the Government to Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the House, who had entered notices of Motion yesterday, and that the Government would do something for them in return for the courtesy with which the President of the Board of Trade had been allowed, at the commencement of the business of the evening—contrary to the usual course, as a matter of convenience to the Government —to take a Government order, namely, the Customs Bill, before the Notices of Motion. After that he did think the Government would have done what they could towards keeping a House. But as it was, only four Members of the Government were in their places. He (Mr. Christie) met the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Member for Cam-bridge in the Lobby after the House was counted out. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade was not in his place; but he saw that right hon. Gentleman leave the House before it was counted out. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to explain this. He saw the right hon. Gentleman come into the House dressed for dinner and go out again; he did not come in again, and this certainly looked as if he would not have so acted without knowing that there was a scheme to count out the House. [Mr. Gladstone dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman denied this, and of course he must take that denial. He, however, knew that the hon. Member for Wallingford (Mr. Blackstone), with five or six associates, was engaged for some time in concocting a scheme. The hon. Member for Wallingford, and five or six others, stood for some minutes at the door, using their influence to prevent Members from entering the House. There was no pretence for thinking that there was any systematic attempt to avoid a discussion on the Universities. The hon. Member for Wallingford was not likely to be selected as the authorised agent of the Universities. All the Members for the University were present, and he knew that the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford had a sincere wish that the discussion should go on. He could ascribe to the hon. Member for Wallingford no higher motive for the course which he chose to adopt, than the wish to save himself and his Friends the trouble of coming down to a late division on a night when there was, as he understood, a number of parties; and they had all imagined, until the Treasury whip went round yesterday morning, that their attendance would not be required by the Treasury. It had been suggested to him that he should bring forward the question as an amendment on a Supply night. He should not do this— not from any aversion to obstructing for one night, the business of the Government —after what had happened, but because he could not bring it on any night, consistently with his promise to the hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis), on which a full attendance of Members could be expected. He thought the question also one of too much importance to be brought forward in any other manner than as a substantive Motion, and to stand or fall by its own merits. He would, however, bring it forward again next Session, if some Member better able to do it justice did not under-take the task, and he hoped the result would show that the attendance yesterday, under the disadvantage of Epsom week, was no fair criterion of the degree of interest felt in the House on so important a subject.

hoped the House would allow him to explain, as he had been referred to personally by the hon. Gentleman. He came to the House at seven o'clock prepared to listen to the hon. Gentleman, and had remained in the House for three quarters of an hour, during all which time he did not think there were forty Members present. He then took the trouble to go round to see whether there were any Friends of the hon. Member present in other parts of the House, but he could not find any; he, therefore, at ten minutes to eight, when the hon. Gentleman rose, moved, that the House be counted. He was of opinion that such an important measure ought not to be brought forward in such a manner, and for his own part he would much rather see it confided to a Member of longer standing. When he saw the House was so thin, and that the Premier was not in his place, he thought it better that the question should not be brought forward.

said, that if his hon. Friend had not moved that the House should be counted, he would have done so.

was sorry to hear it alleged that his absence was a reason for counting out the House. He was certainly absent like others, but he supposed it was necessary that he should be absent at a certain portion of the day, for however short a time. But he certainly paid a greater compliment to the hon. Gentleman than many of his own Friends, for he could call on his hon. Friend, the Secretary of the Treasury, to show that he had begged of him to give him (Sir R. Peel) notice when the hon. Gentleman's speech began, and having a Motion of importance himself on the paper, he felt as much disappointment as the hon. Gentleman when he heard the House was counted out. He repeated that he was not aware of any premeditated intention of counting out the House, and he was on his way down to the House at three-quarters past seven.

Subject at an end.

said, he had hoped, in consequence of the Notice given by the hon. and learned Member for Bath, that the House would be occupied for some time in discussing the state of Canada. He had, however, been disappointed by the postponement of the Motion. He would now ask the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, what kind of government existed in Canada, or whether any administration had yet been formed? The allegation on the part of the Ministers who had resigned was, that they were not allowed to exercise the influence which they had a right to expect that they would be allowed to possess; in short, that responsible government was at an end. He wished to know whether an administration had been formed which enjoyed the confidence of the Colony, or whether the governor of the Colony was not carrying on the Government on his own responsibility.

replied, that he had come down to the House prepared to discuss the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Bath, and he was not aware that it had been postponed until he arrived at the House; he was therefore no party to the postponement. He thought that it would be very inconvenient to enter into a partial discussion of the subject at the present moment; he would therefore only state that Sir C. Metcalfe was most anxious to act upon the suggestions and principles for the government of the Colony laid down by Lord Sydenham. He could only add, that no administration had yet been completed, but he had every reason to believe that, in a very short time, every matter would be satisfactorily arranged. He now understood that an arrangement was made last night with the hon. and learned Member for Bath, relative to the postponement of the discussion on the Government of Canada by the Undersecretary for the Colonies.

protested against making large grants of money for such purposes, after such enormous grants of money had been made from the lands in Canada for the maintenance of the clergy. He could not conceive on what possible ground the people of England should be called upon to pay such large sums of money for such a purpose, as the people of Canada were much better able to do so.

said, that a gradual reduction was being made in these Votes, and that ultimately they would cease.

Vote agreed to.

On the question that 11,282l. be granted to defray the charge of the Colonial Lands and Emigration Board, and other expenses of emigration from this country to the Colonies,

did not consider the present Emigration Board was sufficiently extensive in its nature, as it was merely a subsidiary office to the Colonial Department. At present the nature of this Board was hardly known in several parts of the country. He did not think that the agency should be confined to the out ports; he thought that it was most desirable that agents for emigration should be appointed in several central towns, where they could give every requisite information to persons desirous to emigrate. The noble Earl was probably aware that, at the recent public meeting of the East India proprietors, it appeared that dissatisfaction was expressed relative to the emigration to the West Indies from Africa and the East Indies. Looking over the Papers on the subject which had recently been printed by the noble Lord, he admitted that the noble Lord had acted with considerable caution before he took any active steps on the subject, indeed perhaps with too much caution and hesitation. He thought that the noble Lord should hold a severe hand over the Governors of the Colonies who could not be induced to act under the supervision and instructions of the noble Lord. It appeared from the papers on the Table that the Governor of Sierra Leone took upon himself to alter the proportion of the sexes of the emigrants from that colony to the West In-dies, without the sanction of the noble Lord. He might also observe, that there was a recent dispatch from the Governor-General of India, by which it appeared that there were no further objections to the emigration of the Hill Coolies to our West Indian Colonies, as well as to the Mauritius. The emigration to the Mauritius had proved to be completely successful, and there was not only an ample supply of labour in that colony, but a great number of Hill Coolies were anxious to go there, whose services were not required. Of course it was a matter for the consideration of the noble Lord, as to whether he would allow the emigration of the Hill Coolies from the East Indies to the West Indies, considering the great distance of the voyage. If the noble Lord intended to allow that, he hoped that he would give the House an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject before he carried his intentions into effect. He hoped also that no step would be taken in the matter unadvisedly or hastily. He trusted that the noble Lord would not act upon any scheme of the kind without giving notice.

was fully aware that it was the duty of the Government, and more especially of himself, to act with every degree of caution on a subject of this kind. The moment the recent despatch which the right hon. Gentleman had referred to, was received from the Governor General of India, he communicated it to his col- leagues, and he had also sent copies of it to all the leading merchants and agents connected with the West Indian Colonies. He had communicated confidentially with those parties as to the best mode that would be practicable to carry on an extensive emigration from the East Indies to the West Indies, so as to avoid abuses. He requested that they would make such propositions to him as they thought advisable, and that such answers should be submitted to the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. He had not taken any further steps on the subject: but he might add, that he believed that answers had that day been received at the Colonial Office from the West Indian proprietors; but he had not yet had an opportunity of seeing them. He was not committed on the subject beyond the subject beyond the promise to consider the scheme that body proposed; and before he should give any reply, he should refer the whole matter to the consideration of his colleagues, and they would come to a determination whether the proposed scheme should be adopted or not.

wished to know, in case the scheme was adopted, whether it would be carried into effect by an Order in Council or whether it would be submitted to the decision of Parliament?

said that it did not require this sanction of Parliament, as the power existed at present under the provisions of an Act of Parliament.

was satisfied that emigration could be carried on largely without expense to the country, for there were ample funds provided for the purpose by the sale of waste lands in the Colonies. He wished to state that no one should be alarmed at a proposition for an extensive emigration, as all or any expenses could readily be provided for. There was one point adverted to by his right hon. Friend with respect to which he should be prepared to act when he brought the whole question of emigration before the House, namely, the present constitution of the Land and Emigration Commissioners' Board. He did not wish that they should have the disposal of large funds, and he objected to the constitution of the Board; for it was entirely dependant on the Colonial Office, and was deprived of all power of superintending emigration. To show how little the existence of this Board was known, he would mention a circum- stance that came under his own knowledge. A gentleman who had come over from Canada to organise an extensive emigration to a very fertile district on the banks of the river Ottawa, called upon him and asked his advice, and at the same time, stated that he had been in communication with the Colonial Office, but could not get any satisfactory information. He referred this gentleman to the three Commissioners of the Land and Emigration Board. Now, although this gentleman had been some months in England, and had been carrying on communications on the subject with people in this country, he was not aware of the existence of this Board. He was not prepared to say what alteration should be made in the constitution of this Board, but it appeared to him that a Board to superintend emigration should have a more independent existence than the present Board. He would suggest that there should be a Parliamentary Commission similar to the Poor Law Commission, or the Tithe Commission. He did not anticipate that this would frighten Gentlemen who had such a horror of Commissions, as there would be no increased expense attending the change.

said, that the powers of this Commission were the same as those of the Poor Law or the Tithe Commission. They exercised their own functions, but they acted under the general controul of the Secretary of State; these Commissioners were removable at pleasure, and made their Reports from time to time.

wished to see emigration go on, but he had no wish to see hundreds go out to perish in foreign lands. About 25,000l. a-year had been paid to prevent these people from starving, in consequence of employment not having been provided for them. He was of opinion that the Board ought to be part and parcel of the Colonial Government, and that it ought not to be independent, because it could not carry any proposition into effect without the sanction of the Colonial Government. He was glad that the obstructions to emigration in the Mauritius and other parts had been removed; but that was not enough, for facilities ought to be given to emigration.

thought that the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies was well disposed to arbitrate fairly between all parties. But he must say that he did not agree with his hon. Friend in the advocacy of unlimited importation of labourers into the West Indies, for it was intended by that means to beat down wages to the lowest point, and in fact it would be used like the whip of old to extort the greatest quantity of labour possible at the least cost, and therefore it would re-establish slavery in those islands.

protested against the terms used by the hon. Member for Lambeth, who had talked of the whip and of slavery in a manner covertly to convey an impression that there was an intention on the part of the West India proprietors to beat down wages. Such conduct was not fair on the part of the hon. Member; and he hoped that this was the last time he should hear such insinuations in that House. But if it was not the last time, he should not be afraid to say there, or anywhere else, that so far as he was acquainted and connected with Jamaica— he could not speak so positively of other Islands—he could take upon himself to deny most imperatively and most decidedly any wish, or any scintilla of a wish—if he might be allowed to use such an expression—to beat down wages improperly, or to use any abominable or disgraceful means whatever for such a purpose.

also protested against the language used by the hon. Member for Lambeth. It was that kind of language which had heretofore created a delusion in the minds of those in power, and had led to many misapprehensions as to the real state of the West India Colonies. In those Islands at the present time the price of labour was excessively high, and the price of food very low; consequently there was a monopoly of labour. He thanked the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, for having acceded to the recommendation of the Governor of Sierra Leone for the removal of the restrictions on the importation of labourers from Africa. That importation could not revive slavery. Every colony in the West Indies was as free as any of the counties of England, and studded with magistrates, to whom any one aggrieved could apply for redress. As an intimation had been made to the proper authorities with regard to the system proposed to be adopted as to the Hill Coolies, he wished to ask the noble Lord, as it was really a question of life and death to the West Indian proprietors at the present time, if he intended in any way to increase the points of embarca- tion from the coast of Africa, as Sierra Leone was a most inconvenient point, and some of the best inhabitants of Africa were most anxious to go to our Colonies as free labourers? He would also ask the noble Lord what was to be done in regard to Chinese emigration; and whether it was intended to relax the restrictions with which the Chinese—who were likewise desirous of going to our Colonies as free labourers—had hither been encumbered?

said, that he had sanctioned emigration from China to Singapore as an experiment, subject to certain restrictions; but he had not, as yet, beard the result. With respect to the subject of emigration from Africa, he was not prepared to sanction it from any part of that continent not within the dominions of Her Majesty, because it was only within Her Majesty's dominions that the system of protection which had been adopted for the benefit of the negro race, could be put into practice. The principle upon which the contracts between free labourers and the Colonists in the West Indies, had been repudiated was, that the immigrants were induced to engage themselves for a period of years without knowing the rate of wages paid in the Colony; and that on their arrival they found in general that they could have obtained double the sum in their contract if they had gone out of their own accord. With respect to the Chinese labourers, the principle was, that the colony should compensate the person importing them in case they broke their contract, and that the labourer should be compensated from the same source if the importer was unable to fulfil it.

urged upon the Government to appoint officers or take other means for enforcing the 12th Clause of the Colonial Passengers Act, for preventing emigrants from being taken out in ships that were not seaworthy.

said, that no man had been more anxious than himself to promote the independence and freedom of man. He should be glad to know from the hon. Member for Lambeth, who had used such strong terms, how the free importation of labourers into the West Indies could warrant such insinuations as the hon. Member intended to convey? Had the hon. Member read the following passage from an official despatch—

"Since I have been in charge of this Go- vernment, no instance of any proceedings bearing any resemblance to kidnapping has come to my knowledge, nor of the exercise of any improper influence for obtaining labourers?"

inquired what was the whole amount of expense incurred on account of emigration, and how many persons had emigrated during the present year?

said, the Vote included the total expense incurred by this country over and above the amount raised on the sale of lands in the Colonies. The number of emigrants last year was 50,000 or 60,000; during the previous year 120,000 persons emigrated to the various Colonies.

Vote agreed to.

On the question that 49,700l., be granted for the salaries and expenses of Stipendiary Magistrates in the West India Colonies, the Cape of Good Hope, and the Mauritius,

opposed the Vote. He thought the amount too large for this country to pay for the administration of justice in the Colonies.

stated, that the expense had been gradually reduced. In 1838, it was 68,900l.; in 1840, 58,700l.; in 1842, 52,850l.; and now it was reduced to 49,700l. It would be still further reduced when practicable. He should be able to make reductions in the larger islands more safely than in the smaller.

Vote agreed to.

On the question that the sum of 24,000l. be granted for salaries and expenses of Commissioners for suppressing the Slave Trade,

objected that the whole system this country had long pursued with the view of suppressing the traffic in slaves was erroneous and injurious. It had only tended to sacrifice the lives of our sailors, and to increase the loss of negro life; for the slave ships, to elude our fast-sailing cruisers, were but built smaller, and the consequence was, the wholesale murder of negroes by their being crammed and crowded into spaces too narrow for human existence. The expedition to the Niger had also evinced the utter uselessness of the policy that had so long been pursued, having quite failed, and entailed the loss of three-fourths of the lives engaged in it. The only sure means of preventing the Slave Trade was to do away with the temptation to the traffic, by diminishing the difference between the value of free and of slave labour, and this could only be done by encouraging the former.

contended that while our officers and men were employed on such a perilous service they should be liberally rewarded. He alluded to the absence of all the Lords of the Admiralty during the discussion, and animadverted on the rumoured project for a new species of warfare with the Slave Trade—the blockade of all the Slave Coasts of Africa by steam-frigates. The 10-gun brigs he characterized as a vile class of cruisers, which had been the jest of the slave-traders, but the coffins of hundreds of gallant seamen.

Vote agreed to.

On the question, that the sum of 107,300l. be granted, for expense of Consular Establishments abroad,

remarked that this important Vote was brought forward when there were scarcely thirty Members in the House. There were some items in this Vote which he should like to have explained. There were sums named for the payment of Consuls at Warsaw, and Madrid, and Paris. Now, of what use, he would ask, were Consuls at Warsaw, and Paris, and Madrid? He saw amongst the items a sum of 550l. for the payment of the Consul at Marseilles. The Consul at Marseilles charged British subjects a sum of money for signing their passports, a fact of which he was well aware, for he (Mr. Williams), when at Marseilles, had to pay 8s. for having his passport signed. At Lisbon, there was a Consul receiving 600l. a year, and a Vice-consul 300l. He should like to know what necessity there was for these two officers, and this while there was an Ambassador or Chargé d'Affaires, or whatever he was called, receiving a large amount of the public money. At Constantinople, again, there was a Consul General, and a Vice Consul, besides an Ambassador, or Secretary of Legation, and three Attachés, receiving 15,000l. a year. At Jerusalem, also, and other places, there were very expensive diplomatic establishments. He saw no necessity for these numerous appointments, the expenses of which were very burthensome to the public.

said, that the Consular Officers in question were necessary to give protection to our trade in foreign parts. They also acted as notaries public, and their attestation was necessary to give validity to deeds. The subject had undergone a thorough investigation some ten or twelve years ago, since which time the number of these officers had been very much reduced, and they were now as limited, both in number and expense, as was consistent with the proper discharge of the public service.

Vole agreed to.

On the question, that a sum not exceeding 12,100l. be granted for the support of Polish refugees and distressed Spaniards in this country, for the year ending 31st March, 1845, being proposed,

could not allow this vote to pass without taking the opportunity it afforded of expressing his deep regret at the present degraded state of the Polish nation. The occurrences of each succeeding year brought to the mind of those who were anxious for the regeneration, grounds of alarm and apprehension, while the apathy of the country in the matter was really lamentable. The Emperor of Russia had altogether contravened the stipulations of the Treaty of Vienna, by which the independence of Poland was guaranteed, and, notwithstanding that this country was a party to that Treaty, we had crouched to Russia, and never once had the courage to demand that it should be carried out. The consequence was, that every year whole hetacombs of victims were sacrificed to the Russian policy; and last year he bad seen an assurance given by Prussia to Russia to deny even a refuge in Prussia to the unfortunate Poles. He was ashamed of England holding up her head, as she did, as the defender of liberal principles throughout the world, that in the case of Poland, the Government had not in any way interfered to rescue a brave and noble people from the tyranny to which they had been so long subjected. He hoped the Government would do something to alleviate the severity of the treatment received by the Poles at the hands of the autocrat. He understood that they were to see him here this season; but he could not conceive how he could show his face with decency in this country.

Vote agreed to.

On the question, that 2,154l. be granted for Charities, &c, in Scotland, formerly charged on the hereditary revenue,

objected to the practice of giving pensions to literary men. It had the tendency, he maintained, of making them dependent upon, and subservient in their writings to, those who bestowed pensions. Mr. Southey was a case in point.

must enter his decided protest against these doctrines of the hon. Member. He admitted, that if you took an author who had advocated popular opinions, and if, to induce him to change those opinions, you gave him a pension, that that was a corrupt exercise of power. But when they looked to the men who had of late received pensions from the State—such men as Professor Airey, and Mr. Owen, the curator of the Museum of the College of Surgeons in Lincoln's Inn, for example —when he knew that such gentlemen had, by their devotion to scientific pursuits, sacrificed many opportunities of gaining wealth—when their pensions were bestowed without the slightest inquiry into their political opinions—without imposing on them the slightest terms or condition—when he saw the Crown making such selections once a year of distinguished scientific men—ay, and women too, witness Mrs. Somerville—he could not imagine that the bestowal of the just reward of merit involved the slightest tie upon the independence of those who thus received it. He repeated, that he knew not what might be the political feelings of the distinguished individuals whom he had named. In every case, the bestowal of the pension had been accompanied by a distinct statement that it was not a retainer—that it had nothing to do with the recipient's political opinions. He certainly thought that there ought to be some pro-vision which would enable individuals to devote their lives to science in a state of things in which proficiency in science was unaccompanied by pecuniary reward. In the case of Mr. Owen, that gentleman would not have been able to continue certain works in which he was now engaged, had it not been for the pension granted to him. There was another case of late occurrence, in which pensions of 10l. a-year had been granted to two aged female relatives of the poet Burns. Now, did anybody object to that? Did anybody think that evil could possibly arise from rescuing from poverty and misery two persons connected with a great poet, of whom his country was so justly proud? The very last case in which a small pen- sion was bestowed, was in that of Miss Heriott, a distressed descendant of George Heriott, who founded the great charity bearing his name in Edinburgh, and who, by that act of munificence, had left his family in distress. Was it not right that the Crown should in such cases, have the power of conferring small pensions? It would be a scandal to our name and nation to have no such provision to be bestowed in cases where only, without it, a public subscription could raise families from want, and which could not be set on foot in so many cases without wounding; nice feelings, and giving rise to honourable scruples. He did think, in an ancient monarchy like this, that in such cases the Crown should have the power of stepping in and rescuing merit from submitting to what it felt to be a great degradation.

begged to state, to show the influence of these pensions, that Mr. Southey's opinions had undergone a change after the bestowal of his pension.

replied, that it was well known, that in consequence of that great man's application to scientific and literary pursuits, his health had failed him; but it was utterly ridiculous to suppose that for a paltry pension, and the commutation of an allowance of sack, such a man as Mr. Southey would have bartered his opinions. Did anybody think that Mr. Wordsworth would sell his political freedom of thought for a price? Let hon. Gentlemen rest assured that the feelings of literary men put them far above such actions. They might be gratified by the distinction bestowed, but to suppose that men like Wordsworth and Southey would have been influenced by a paltry 100l.. a-year, and a butt of sherry, would, he sincerely believed, be doing a great injustice to both their names.

could not agree that literary men should be excluded from pensions. So far he differed from his hon. Friend, the Member for Montrose. Such a distinction would be unwise and invidious. But he did object, in one of the cases cited, to the pension bestowed — that given to Mr. Owen—and he believed that that was the general feeling in the profession which he had the honour of be. longing to. The College of Surgeons had the power of providing for Mr. Owen on a scale commensurate to his merits.

The pension was but 200l.. a-year. Mr. Owen had devoted to pursuits connected with comparative anatomy talents, which, in another sphere of life, might have been the source of great emolument to him. He had referred to several eminent men, the question of who was at present the most eminent man, connected with anatomical science; and the general voice of Europe had assured him that, since the death of Cuvier, Mr. Owen was the most distinguished anatomical student; and he was told that if the Crown could bestow upon him a small pension, it would have a most advantageous effect, as enabling him to devote his leisure to the preparation of two works, for the completion of which he would otherwise have no time.

thought, that the College of Surgeons should provide for its own officers. It had ample means at its disposal, but it lavished them upon us own members, and neglected the most meritorious of its functionaries.

thought, that the College of Surgeons and the Crown had, in this case, acted with perfect propriety. The former had attached a certain salary to a certain office, and it could not increase or diminish the amount, according to the degree of merit of the person filling it.

Vote agreed to.

On the question that the sum of 16,000l.. be granted for the expense incurred in Canada for Militia and Volunteers,

said, this Vote was for defraying the expenses of the three troops of cavalry, which cost less than our own troops, and could serve in unhealthy situations. They watched the frontier, and defrayed the expenses of their own horses and accoutrements.

did not see the necessity of watching the United States when we were at peace with it, and would divide the Committee against the grant.

The Committee divided — Ayes 73; Noes 7: Majority 66.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed, Committee to sit again.

moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the Administration of the Laws for the Relief of the Poor in Unions, formed under the Act 23 George III. c. 83, (Gilbert's Act), and to report to the House their opinion, whether it is expedient that the said Unions should be dissolved.

expressed his surprise that the right hon. Baronet should have moved for the appointment of such a Committee at so late an hour, (a quarter to 12), and when those Members who took an interest in the subject were not aware that it would be brought on. He wished to say a word as to the terms in which the Motion was couched. By the use of the word "dissolved," it appeared that if these different incorporations under the Gilbert Act were condemned by the right hon. Baronet: he did not see why the right bon. Baronet should at all as- sume that the Gilbert Unions were to be "dissolved." He supposed that it was attributable to that influence which the Poor Law Commissioners exercised so constantly over the noble Lord who preceded the right hon. Baronet in his office and which had never left the right hon. Baronet himself quiet in his office, till it had caused him now to move for the appointment of this Committee. He (Captain Pechell) had every desire that publicity should be given to the subject and state of these Unions; he wished the case to be most closely gone into, and that all the officers of the Gilbert Unions should be examined as to their condition. On the other hand, he did not think it was right, that, at the time when they were about to be called on to go into Committee on the Poor Law Bill, which would probably last until nearly the end of the Session, they should be called upon to take evidence as to the state of these Unions. The right hon. Baronet told them at first that this Committee should be had before Easter, and that would have been in a very good time; but at the present period of the Session he did not think that any great advantage would be derived from the Committee, as it would be impossible to legislate either one way or other on their Report. The right hon. Baronet, however, would be very much mistaken if he inferred from this that he (Captain Pechell) wished to draw back or not go into the case before a Committee. His objection was, that the Committee would be of no use for any purpose of legislation this Session. The words of the Motion, as he had said, looked very much as if the right hon. Baronet did not mean to deal fairly with the Gilbert incorporations. It would remain to be seen, however, how the hon. Baronet would constitute the Committee. He had every reason to believe that the right hon. Baronet himself meant to act fairly with regard to the nomination of the Committee; but really the Poor Law Commissioners seemed to be, as it were, the masters of the Government. The right hon. Baronet and the right hon. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, had always spoken by way of mitigating the horrors of the Poor Law Bill, when in came the Poor Law Commissioners to influence the Government, and tell them they were about to retract. It seemed as if the Poor Law Commissioners had urged the right hon. Baronet on to move for this Committee. When the last Poor Law Bill was introduced the language of the right hon. Baronet was to the effect, that he was not going to legislate on the Gilbert Unions; but the wording of the notice to-night, looked very like a determination to abolish them. Inded, unless the supporters of those Unions had a fair opportunity of submitting their case to the Committee, he feared that their doom was sealed. He relied, however, on the justice of the right hon. Baronet, as to the formation of the Committee. As he (Captain Pechell) was for inquiry, it was of course not for him personally to oppose the Motion, and he hoped the right hon. Baronet would take the observations he had made in the good spirit in which they were intended.

could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he received his observations in the best possible spirit. He had supposed that the appointment of the Committee, accompanied by the withdrawal from the Poor Law Bill of the subject of these Unions, had met with the hon. Gentleman's cordial support. He thought the hon. Gentleman wished for an inquiry, in which an opportunity would be afforded to the supporters of these Unions, to show how much better managed they were than those under the Poor Law Act. The necessity of such inquiry was so pressed on him (Sir J. Graham) from time to time that he at last yielded to the solicitation. Tempted by the hon. and gallant Member he had given way, and afforded him and his friends the opportunity they had so long wished for. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman objected to the word; "dissolved," he would propose to alter it, and substitute the word "maintained."

did not see much difference between the two as regarded the effect of the Motion: in fact, they amounted to the same thing. Had the right hon. Baronet worded the Motion so as to make it, "to inquire into the operation" of the Gilbert Unions it would have been better.

reminded the hon. Member that the first part of the Motion included the words "administration of the law," as regarded them.

felt sure the Committee would be fairly constituted and possess the usual powers; he therefore did not object to the Motion. It was a choice between this Committee and the abolition of the Gilbert Unions, and the Committee of course was the better alternative. If, however, the whole Poor Law administration were put on the footing of the Gilbert Unions it would be a most valuable improvement in this department of the law. The time, however, for full discussion was at hand, and he felt sure that the Government would not baulk inquiry. He thought they had arrived at that period of the Session when so important a measure ought no longer to be delayed; and he did hope that the subject of the English Poor Law would be the first to occupy the attention of the House after the recess.

put it to his right hon. Friend, whether the House would be able to proceed decisively with respect to the subject of the Poor Law, till they heard the result of the inquiry of the Committee now moved for. He was himself decidedly for maintaining the Gilbert Unions.

thought it pretty clear what the object of those who brought forward the present Motion was. An inquiry as to the " administration " of the law might easily be confined to the mere acts of the officials, instead of being extended to the effects and operation of the law upon those principally affected by it —the poor. Every one knew the "cases" of the Commissioners were well " got up," and skilfully conducted; but, it was less to particular instances of administration than to the scope and character of the systems, and to the position of the poor and their rights to relief, that he considered an investigation of this nature should be directed. As it was, however, he doubted if the result of the inquiry would be at all satisfactory.

had already altered the form of his Motion by substituting the word "maintain" for "dissolve," in reference to the Gilbert Unions; and, as the hon. Member for Oxfordshire appeared to consider the terms "administration of the law " not sufficiently wide to let in a full inquiry, he would not object to the introduction of the word " and operation " of the law. He declared that he desired full and fair inquiry. Last year he had been charged with introducing clauses, without inquiry, affecting Gilbert Unions. This year he proposed inquiry, which he hoped would be satisfactory to those who anticipated advantage from it. For himself he was willing to abide by the result. And he should now lay on the Table the names of those he should propose, on Thursday, for his Committee.

thought this was mere trifling with an important subject; more important as it affected a large portion of society—the poor, who were absolutely unrepresented and unprotected. The practical question appeared to be whether the result of the Committee could be attained sufficiently soon to be applied to the existing measure of the Poor Law Act Amendment. [Sir J. Graham: The subjects are quite distinct]. That, perhaps, was a matter of opinion, and he retained his own, which is, that the two subjects are intimately, inseparably, connected; for whether the Report of the Committee be favourable or adverse to the Gilbert Unions, it must necessarily affect the measure at present before Parliament for further Poor Law Amendment, unless, indeed, the right hon. Baronet intended merely to make the inquiry one of form, to satisfy the public with a semblance of investigation and the show of impartiality, while the dissolution of those Unions had been predetermined.

said, much would depend, no doubt, on the Members who constituted the Committee. But he should like to know whether, if the Report were favourable to the Gilbert Unions any further attacks upon them would be relinquished?

declined to commit himself as to what course he should adopt upon the Report, which, however, he should, in any event, treat with proper respect. He would say further, that he intended the inquiry to be no obstacle to the progress of the Bill before Parliament, considering, as he did, the two subjects wholly independent.

considered it somewhat remarkable that the right hon. Baronet, who would have the power perhaps of appointing a Committee favourable to his Poor Law predilections, would not nevertheless pledge himself to act upon its Report. The Commissioners represented the Gilbert Unions as nuisances—not so much to the public as to Somerset-house; being geographically awkward for the purposes of Poor Law Union divisions: but it was too bad, that for this reason—merely because the Gilbert Unions were inconvenient to the Commissioners, although they might satisfy the landlords, the tenants, and the poor—they were to be set aside. Probably labourers, specimens of the New Poor Law and of the Gilbert Union management, would be produced and weighed for the sake of ascertaining the relative results of the diet under the respective systems. He (Captain Pechell) was not at all unfavourable to the inquiry, and certainly should not resist it. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Gentleman opposite would allow him to name the seven gentlemen as well as the Chairman of the Committee, and he should entertain no fear as to the result. If, on the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman intended to name the seven gentlemen and an Under-Secretary of State as Chairman, he gave up the case.

The original Motion was withdrawn, and the following in its stead agreed to:—

"That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the administration and operation of the Law for the relief of the Poor in Unions formed under the Act 22 Geo. 3, c. 83. (Gilbert's Act), and to report to the House their opinion, whether it is expedient that the said Unions should be maintained."

House adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock till Thursday next.