asked the Under Secretary for the Colonies whether a Commission had been appointed, either by the Secretary of State for the Colonies or by the Governor General of Canada, to inquire into the complaints of Mr. Isbister, and others, against the present government of the Red River Settlement, or against the Hudson's Bay Company generally; and whether, if no inquiry were now pending, he would lay on the table of the House any correspondence which had taken place on the subject? Also, whether a grant had been made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies of Vancouver's Island to the Hudson's Bay Company; and, if so, what was to be the form of government; what regulations had been made as to the working of coals and minerals; and what stipulations had been entered into as to the future colonisation of the island? Also, whether there would be any objection to lay on the; table of the House copies of correspondence between the Colonial Office and the Hudson's Bay Company on this subject, and of the charter, if any granted to the company?

, in answer to the noble Lord's first question, begged to state that in the course of last year certain complaints were made at the Colonial Office against the Hudson's Bay Company generally by Mr. Isbister, who was over in this country; which complaints were referred to the Hudson's Bay Company, with a request that they would answer the various allegations. These answers, however, when received, not being altogether satisfactory, and his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office feeling that the whole subject required more investigation, the original complaint and answers were intrusted to Lord Elgin, the Governor General of Canada, whose attention was specially directed to the whole question. About a fortnight ago an answer had been received from Lord Elgin, who stated that he had found great difficulty in instituting the inquiry which he had been called upon to make, and in obtaining correct information on the subject, which, considering the distance of the territory, was not to be wondered at; but, as a general result, his Lordship stated that his opinion was favourable to the government of the Hudson's Bay Company. An opportunity had since been taken by a Queen's officer, who was going out to the Red River Settlement, to protect the public peace, and who was instructed to inquire into all the allegations, and to report. At the present moment, therefore, he thought it would be hardly just to the Hudson's Bay Company to lay the correspondence on the table.

rose and said: I rise with the view of stating the course which I propose to take with respect to the two Bills which stand first on the Orders, viz., the Borough Elections (No. 2) Bill, and the Horsham Borough Bill. What I propose to do, in the first place, is to discharge the orders for these two Bills, and to state the outline of the measure I intend to propose in their place. I have endeavoured in this measure to avoid some of the objections which were stated to the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for the Flint boroughs (Sir J. Hanmer); but, certainly, I cannot hope that I have succeeded in obviating all of them. The House is aware, that in the Act of Parliament which I had the honour of carrying in August, 184:2, entitled "An Act for the Better Discovery and Prevention of Bribery and Treating at the Election of Members of Parliament," it is provided that in all cases where charges of bribery shall have been abandoned, or where there is any suspicion entertained of a compromise having taken place among the parties, or where any other charge of bribery shall have been made, whether in support of the original petition or by way of recrimination, the Election Committee shall have power to examine into the circumstances, and report whether further investigation is needed. If the Committee shall recommend further inquiry, the House shall then instruct them to consider what were the grounds for abandoning such charges, and to prosecute the matter further. I have now to state the general alterations in that law which I propose to introduce. I propose to extend the provision just alluded to, and to provide that in all cases where charges of bribery and corrupt practices are made—whether in the original petition or by way of recrimination—the Election Committee shall proceed to investigate such charges; and if they shall find, as is frequently the case, that the parties do not proceed to bring forward evidence of such charges so as to enable them fully to investigate the case, they shall have power to proceed to report to the House that in their opinion further investigation is needed with respect to the corrupt practices, in order to ascertain whether such corrupt practices have extensively prevailed; they shall also report further their opinion whether such inquiry should be made by the same Committee, or whether it should be made on the spot by Commissioners appointed under the Act. In case they shall recommend that the same Committee should investigate the charges, the Committee shall reassemble within fourteen days, according to the powers given them in the Act of the 5th and 6th Victoria, cap. 102, in the same way as if the charges of bribery had been abandoned, or there was reason to suppose that a compromise had taken place. In that case also the Speaker shall appoint an agent to conduct the investigation before a Committee. Supposing the Committee should take the other course, and recommend that the inquiry should be made by the Commissioners upon the spot, then the Speaker shall notify to the senior Judge of assize going the circuit, who has authority to appoint revising barristers, that the House of Commons have determined that an inquiry shall be made into the corrupt practices in such a borough, within such a county or district, and that he shall nominate two barristers—not Members of Parliament—to investigate the matter. I propose to refer the appointment of these Commissioners to a Judge of assize, because it would then be impossible to say that there were any political motives in making the appointment, and because all suspicion would thus be avoided, by placing such appointments in his hands. These Commissioners shall then, within a certain time, investigate on the spot all the circumstances relating to the charges of bribery and corrupt practices, and report to the House whether the bribery and corrupt practices were casual or general in the said borough. Having made that general provision, whereby bribery and corrupt practices will be investigated in future, I propose to apply the principle of the Bill to those boroughs concerning which inquiries have already taken place before Election Committees, and the Members of which had been unseated in consequence of evidence of corrupt practices having been given. This has occurred at least in one case (that of the borough of Leicester), if not in more. The House will have to decide whether new writs should be issued with respect to those cases, or whether they should be suspended with a view to make further inquiry before such writs issue. In some eases, it is true, the writs have already been granted, but in others they have not. It seemed to me that the general impression of the House, in respect to most of those cases, was that some further inquiry should be made. The principle upon which I proceed is this: assuming that such a Bill as that of which I have just stated the outlines had been in force, in that case the Election Committee would have reported whether any further investigation was required; and if, upon their statement, it appeared that further investigation was required, you then would have proceeded under the powers of the Election Act to appoint a Select Committee, or Commissioners, according as the one or the other should be adopted by the House, to carry on the investigation. What I think to be defective in the Act of 1842 is, that the Committees have been necessarily obliged (with the exception of the case of Leicester) to stop short in their inquiries, and had not the power to proceed with a view to ascertain, in such a manner as would enable them to state it in their report, whether the cases required to be further investigated—whether, in fact, bribery and corruption had been practised in a few instances only, or whether those practices had been general and extensive. This defect will be remedied by the Bill which I propose to introduce. I likewise intend to introduce a clause giving indemnity in certain cases to witnesses examined before such Committees or such Commissioners; also providing that such witnesses shall not be called upon in any penal or criminal proceeding. It has always appeared to me necessary to give an indemnity of some kind to witnesses in cases of bribery and corruption, although I know that many eminent lawyers, Members of this House some five or six years ago, whom I consulted upon the subject, were of opinion that it would be far better to repeal all the laws which fixed any penalties on parties guilty of acts of bribery, and leave such parties subject only to the punishment of the loss of their votes, or of their seats in this House. They were of opinion that that course would be much better than giving an indemnity to witnesses, and continuing the present state of the law. I did not, however, at that time concur in that opinion, although it was given on very high authority by eminent lawyers on both sides of the House. I did not think it advisable to proceed so far as to repeal all penalties on parties guilty of bribery and corrupt practices at elections. I believe that if we were to do so, it would lead to great misapprehension, and, although it may be more efficient in the end, yet I think in the first instance it would occasion a great increase in the practice of those offences. I now beg to move—

"That the Orders of the Dar respecting the Borough Elections (No. 2) Bill, and the Horsham Borough Bill, be discharged, and that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the purpose of instituting Inquiries as to the existence of Bribery and Corrupt Practices in certain Boroughs, and also for the Prevention of Bribery and Corruption at the Election of Members of Parliament."

said, it was proposed to omit the words which went to limit the sale of property under the directions of the court, unless it sold for a sum sufficient to pay off all the incumbrances.

proceeded to state the object of the Amendment of which he had given notice. The Bill as at present framed limited the right of petitioning for a sale to the owner of the estate, to the first incumbrancer, and to the mortgagee who might hold the title-deeds in his possession. He was desirous of removing such limitation, and permitting any incumbrancer to institute proceedings in a court of equity for a sale. The parties on whom the clause exclusively conferred the power, were precisely those who in general were least disposed to sell. The owner of an estate heavily incumbered has ceased too frequently to retain any direct interest in its possession, excepting that which he valued very naturally, and not undeservedly, the consideration and position which had come to him by inheritance, and which, with the inheritance, he is conscious that he must lose. To expect such a man to initiate proceedings in equity for a sale would be idle. Were the highest price realised, and all his creditors paid off, the balance in many instances that would remain would not enable him to maintain what is familiarly termed his position in the county; and if he happened to be but tenant for life, the interest annually payable to him out of court upon this residuum would be inadequate to maintain him in that social sphere in which he had hitherto moved. If you waited until the insolvent, or nearly insolvent, owner petitioned for a sale, you might wait for ever. Then as to the first incumbrancer, he believed it would be found that the first incumbrancer was, generally speaking, a person holding a charge under family settlement, or an old judgment on a bond. In Ireland those early charges and old judgments were looked upon as about the best investment that could be had. They were transferable, and always brought their full price whenever they were sold. They were valued like old pictures, which the possessor was always the loss disposed to part with because he knew that they would always bring him his own money. If, therefore, lands were never brought to sale until persons so circumstanced filed petitions in equity to raise the amount of these charges, sales to any considerable extent there would never be. As for the principal mortgagees, who had the title-deeds in their possession, those parties had usually taken very good care either to buy up prior incumbrances before they lent any considerable sum to the owner, or to leave a sufficient margin of rent to secure the payment of their interest. Sometimes these parties were wealthy individuals who had lent their money in this way as a permanently safe and profitable investment. Sometimes they were joint-stock companies or moneylenders; but, almost invariably, they felt themselves to be in exactly the position where there was seldom any object or motive to institute proceedings for a sale. The estate might deteriorate, as heavily incumbered properties were apt to do; but they were distant from the scene; indifferent to the slow decay; safe, by their possession of the title-deeds, from the practical consequences of the evil. To wait till such parties filed petitions of sale would be to wait for ever. In the course of the discussions that had taken place upon this Bill on a previous day, he regretted to observe a tone of argument indicative in some sort of a feeling that, after all, this was a mere wrangle between landlords and lawyers. But there was another and a far wider interest concerned, which he trusted the House would protect and guard—he meant that of the tenantry on incumbered estates in Ireland. Their position was most lamentable. Improvement was unknown, and escape from the evil impossible. Year after year the condition of the embarrassed property grew worse, until, in the sad progress of deterioration, the time came when, every other duty of proprietorship having ceased to be discharged, the collection of the rents devolved upon a receiver; and what misery and demoralisation were comprehended in that fatal phrase, it could be hardly necessary to explain. Now, what was the condition of the puisne incumbrancer? He watched the gradual deterioration of the estate on which he had lent his money with a very different eye. The eventual danger of a deficient fund was ever present to his mind. If he were enabled to do so, he would institute proceedings for a sale before it was too late. By doing so he would do a real service to the improvident owner, and an inestimable benefit to the tenantry of the portion which might be sold. The Amendment which he had the honour to move, would clothe the minor incumbrancer with this power; and it would, he believed, go far towards the gradual encouragement of what was so desirable, but what, at present, did not practically exist in Ireland, a market for land. People talked of bringing land into the market. Into what market? If they meant by a market the competition of small capitals for moderate portions of land, he could understand it; but if they meant a forcing of large estates, unbroken and in great numbers, suddenly to sale, then he would tell them that the only practical effect would be to depreciate most ruinously the present value of land, and to hand over a vast portion of the soil of Ireland to a class of mere land-jobbers. He was sure that such was in no respect the purpose or aim which the framers of the Bill had in view. But he very much feared that such would to some extent be its unintentional tendency, if some means were not found of permitting portions of estates rather than entire estates to be sold in liquidation of minor incumbrances. He had heard with the deepest interest the speech delivered on a former day by the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham); and by nothing was he more struck than by the caution with which he guarded his strenuous support of the principle of the Bill from any approval of recklessly throwing more land upon the market than the capital of Ireland could appropriate, and thus incurring the incalculable evil of general depreciation. The Amendment would restore the second clause to the condition in which it stood when the Bill was originally introduced into the other House last year; and he earnestly hoped, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government would not refuse to adopt it.

said, they should keep in view that the purpose of the measure was not so much the sale of large estates as the formation of small ones, for the purposes of creating a yeomanry connected with the land, and living on their estates. Upon this ground he thought it important that the attention of the noble Lord should be directed to the subject of the stamp duties, with a view to their reduction, so far as regarded the transfer of property in land. [Mr. OSBORNE observed, that notice had been given of a clause for that purpose.] The Stamp Acts, as they at present stood, greatly favoured the sale of large estates, or rather rendered it very expensive to acquire small ones; and he thought that the objects of the present measure would not be efficiently advanced without an alteration in the stamp duties on the transfer of real property.

could not assent to the suggested alteration. All the expenses of effecting a sale must eventually fall on the estate; and he did not think it expedient to give to any one incumbrancer the power of subjecting the estate to a forced sale, contrary to the interests of the owner and the other incumbrancers.

having moved its omission, the Committee divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 8: Majority. 56.

thought that the particular clause then under consideration required the most serious attention, because he held it to be of primary importance that while every facility should be given to tenants for life to sell encumbered estates, peculiar care should be taken that there should be no collusive sale, and that the full value of the land should be obtained. It had been suggested to him that for the purpose of preventing collusive sales, and with the view of obtaining the full value of the land, the sales should take place by public auction. It had also been suggested, that for the purpose of securing the same object, it was desirable that the sale should take place in the master's office, with the power of opening the biddings; but to this last proposal he had an insuperable objection. He wished to know, however, from the Solicitor General whether he had any strong and decided objection to the proposal that the sales should be by public auction?

certainly would not object to the proposal, provided he was quite sure that sales by auction would be a security against fraud; but he feared that if fraud was intended, it would be perpetrated by public auction as well as by private contracts. He had always found, and he thought it would be the experience of most persons, that it was far the best course to give the power of selling either by public auction or by private contract, as might be found most advisable; because, if they limited the sale to either the one or the other mode, they would in many cases preclude a party from selling to the best advantage. He admitted, that if they were to limit the sale to one or other of these modes, it ought to be limited to sales by auction. If it was the opinion of the Committee that the sale should be by auction, he would not oppose it; but he presumed the right hon. Baronet, to whom he owed great obligations for the assistance he had rendered in improving the provisions of the measure, would not object to the estate being sold by private sale, if it could not be disposed of by auction.

could conceive the case of a tenant for life having an interest in effecting a sale to the detriment of the heir in remainder, he being a minor, or under parental control; and therefore be thought the greatest care should be taken to prevent fraud. Perhaps the Solicitor General would consult the other law authorities on this point, and be able, on the report, to bring up the clause so altered as completely to meet the case.

acceded to the suggestion.