said, it was agreed that if a general system of education could be accomplished, it would contribute greatly to the political, moral, and social welfare of the country. In the United States of America a very liberal and enlightened system of national education prevailed, and with all their faults no people were better qualified to exercise their rights and understand their duties than the people of that country. All parties, he believed, would admit that some change of the present system of education in Scotland was necessary. They were in a transition state as regarded education in that country, and sundry schemes had been laid before the public. He must say, however, that he thought the old system of education in Scotland was in many respects much better than the new system that was in danger of being adopted; and he hoped the House would agree with him in thinking that they ought to adhere to the old system, with such changes as modern ways of thinking might render necessary. It would appear that even prior to the Reformation in Scotland the Legislature had directed its attention to the subject of education, for they found that as early as 1494 an Act was passed directing all persons to send their eldest sons to school; and there was evidence to show that what were lecture schools were planted in the greater number of the principal towns. Thus, in Edinburgh and Glasgow, large schools were founded in connexion with the abbey of Holyrood in the former, and with the cathedral in the latter city; and similar institutions existed in many other places. But the origin of the present system of parochial education in Scotland was to be traced to the time of the Reformation. When the Roman Catholic Church was subverted, the Reformed clergy who took their places, endeavoured to lay down a general principle for the administration of all the funds derived from that Church. They proposed that the ecclesiastical funds should be divided into three portions—one part to be appropriated to the payment of the clergy, another to the support of the poor, and the third to the establishment of schools and universities. A very liberal endowment was proposed for schools, though the arrangement was not at that time carried into effect. Various legislative measures had been enacted respecting schools in Scotland, between the years 1696, when the Act was passed which regulated the whole parochial system, down to 1803. That Act made it imperative to establish a school in every parish, by and with the advice of the heritors and minister; and in 1803 a formula was introduced to be adopted by schoolmasters, whose salaries were increased, and the electoral body considerably restricted. The Act of 1803 had not worked so well as the friends of education could desire, and the difficulty was, that whenever any attempt was made to improve the system, some religious question was raised which prevented anything really beneficial being done. Had it not been for that difficulty, the Government would no doubt have interfered, and by this time the parochial schools of Scotland would have been in a much better condition than they now were. The next question was, what was the actual condition of education in Scotland? He was not prepared to say that the state of education in that country was so bad as in England, but certainly it was far from being what it ought to be. In endeavouring to arrive at an accurate knowledge of the facts bearing upon this point, he had obtained the assistance of a few authentic documents; but he hoped, from the sources of information at his command, to make a near approximation to what was the real state of the case. He found from the Prison Report of 1846–47, that out of 16,000 prisoners committed, one in three could read well, one in thirteen could write well, and one in fifty knew something more than reading and writing. In the Perth prison, out of 302 prisoners, only seventy could read well. Of 20,076 criminals committed from July, 1847, 4,742 could not read, and 10,517 could not write; 8,873 could read with difficulty, 1,623 could merely sign their names, and 5,932 could write with difficulty; making a total of those who could not read, or read with difficulty, of 13,615; and of those who could not write, or wrote with difficulty, of 17,072. In the report of the Inspectors of Prisons for this year it was stated that out of 210 prisoners admitted to Perth prison, 128 could not read, or only read a little, and eighty-two could read well. From the tables of criminal offenders in Scotland, presented to the House a few days ago, it appeared that out of 4,357 criminals, 891, or 20 per cent. could not read or write; and that 3,586, or 82 per cent. could only do so imperfectly. These facts might be multiplied to a great extent; but he felt it unnecessary to do so, for on all hands the great want of education was admitted. It had been computed that, notwithstanding all the efforts making to educate the people of Scotland, not fewer than 150,000 children, or about two-fifths of the whole juvenile population of Scotland, were uneducated. In an inquiry, embracing a gross population of 40,000 in Glasgow, in 1846, not much above half of those between the ages of six and sixteen attended school; nearly one-fourth were unable to read, and only one in every three and one-third had received instruction in writing. In Edinburgh 92 per cent of the criminals were uneducated, notwithstanding the large educational establishments which that city contained. It was proper he should state that juvenile confinements had decreased in Edinburgh during the last three years, and that this was attributed to the influence of the ragged schools, and also to a clause in the Police Act, which empowered the magistrates to punish juvenile offenders otherwise than by imprisonment. He would now advert to the provision made for educating the people of Scotland. In Scotland there were 883 parish schools, with an average attendance of eighty-four at each, making in all 74,300 scholars. Then there were 200 supplemental parish schools, having an attendance of 16,800; 125 General Assembly schools, having 15,000 scholars; forming a total of 106,000 scholars in attendance upon the schools of the Established Church. In connexion with the Free Church there were 626 schools, where the masters received gratuities, having 55,000 scholars. Of non-salaried schools there were 190, with 10,000 scholars; making altogether 816 schools, and 65,000 scholars. At all other schools the number of scholars estimated was 150,000; they had thus, in connexion with the Establishment, 106,000 scholars; with the Free Church, 65,000; other schools, 150,000; making a total of 321,000; and as there were 500,000 children in Scotland, it followed that 180,000 were left quite uneducated. The condition of the parish schools was certainly far from what it ought to be. A very large number of the teachers were reported to be, from age and infirmity, disqualified for the discharge of their duties; while, as regarded the buildings, many parish schools were of insufficient dimensions, and others imperfectly furnished, lighted, and ventilated. As regarded the taxation for the support of the parochial schools, it pressed with great inequality. Taking 13 counties south of the Forth and Clyde, with a population of 1,288,000, he found that in that district there were 273,000 people living in 242 rural parishes. Computing the taxation on each rural parish at 40 l., that would produce a sum of 9,600 l., and the number of children who should receive education might be stated at 45,500. By a similar computation there would be 169,000 children in the town parishes; so that while a sum of from 4 s. 6 d. to 5 s. a child was paid in the rural districts, in the towns and in the mining and manufacturing districts not more than from 6 d. to 1 s. a child would be necessary. This showed great inequality of taxation, and it certainly called for a remedy. He would now come to the condition of the schoolmasters, and the payment which they received; and upon this point he must say, that not only the Established Church, but the Free Church also, considering that they professed to go back to the ancient system, as laid down in the first and second Book of Policy, had not dealt fairly with the schoolmasters connected with their churches. In former days the schoolmaster's salary was, in some cases, equivalent to, and in other cases larger than, the stipend paid to the minister. It appeared that schoolmasters had sometimes salaries of from 6 l. to 12 l., per annum, while the Principal of a University had not more than 18 l. The minister of the West Kirk of Edinburgh received in those days 9 l., while the schoolmaster of the parish had 12 l.; and it appeared that in some cases not more than 3 l. was paid to the clergy. Now, however, the masters of the Highland schools had, on an average, 5 l. each, and in some cases only 2 l. or 3 l.; and it often happened that when the herrings came into the loch the schoolmaster would dismiss the school, and go to the herring fishery, where he would earn more in one night than in the school for the whole year. Now, if the schools were an integral part of the Church establishment, he held it to be very unfair that in one part of that establishment salaries of a superior kind should be received, while in another part the most miserable salaries were given. The schoolmasters in connexion with the Free Church were no better off than those connected with the Establishment. It appeared that those who were to receive 15 l. of salary were only receiving 10 l., that those who understood they were to get 20 l. had been paid with 13 l. 13 s., while others, who were to get 30 l., were paid with 20 l. The measure which he had brought forward was founded upon the territorial principle. Indeed, it would be very difficult, if not altogether impossible, in the case of a thinly scattered population like that of many districts in Scotland, to deal with the question upon any system which did not imply a united education, because, without an immense expense it would not be possible to have more than one school in each district; and as Dissenters were scattered all over the country, and as the adherents of the Establishment were now a minority of the people, it was quite absurd to expect that the Establishment should possess a monopoly in regard to schools intended for the whole population. He therefore proposed that the schools should be open to all classes, and that all persons should be enabled to compete for the honourable office of schoolmaster. He next came to a point upon which a great many difficulties had been very unnecessarily raised—he meant with regard to the religious education which would be afforded in these schools. He begged to remind the House that, as concerned the greater part of the population of Scotland, there was no essential difference with respect to religion; that the duties of the Established Church, of the Free Church, and of the United Presbyterian Church, were in all essential respects the same; that they appealed to the same Confession of Faith in their churches, and used the same catechisms in their schools; and that the differences which had arisen amongst those were not so much upon questions of religious doctrine, as upon questions involving political consequences. There was therefore no sort of reason why the children of all these bodies should not join together in the matter of education. Indeed, the practice of all these churches, and even of the Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, had hitherto been to act together in the matter of education. It appeared from returns obtained some ten or fifteen years ago, that in the case of 915 out of 924 parochial schools, the parents were in the habit of allowing their children to attend them without reference to their own religious opinions. In proof that the religious education of Scotland was not to be attributed to statutory enactments and the connexion of the parochial schools with the Established Church, he begged to mention that the Presbytery of Edinburgh, in virtue of the powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1696, the Act of Union, and other Acts, were in the habit of visiting a great number of schools within their bounds, non-parochial as well as parochial, and, as he was informed, that presbytery had reported that in all these schools, whether connected with the Establishment or not, the religious education was perfectly satisfactory. He begged also to observe, that if in the measure which he now proposed to the House, he had introduced anything whatever about religion, he should have done that which had never been done in any of the previous Acts of Parliament on this subject. Religion had always been omitted in former Acts, because it was well known that if the parents desired, as in nine cases out of every ten they did, to give their children a religious education, there was no danger that their wishes would be neglected. In one of the reports lately presented to Parliament he found a statement which applied very appropriately to this question. There was a gentleman named Milne, a native of Fochabers, who upon his death, a few years ago, bequeathed a large sum for the purpose of being applied towards the education of the children of his native parish; and here was what the report said on the subject:—

"The bequest was intended for the benefit of all children in the parish—including those who are under no need to be relieved from the ordinary cost of education—as if the donor, by so large and indiscriminate a gift, had desired to mark his own sense of the equal value of education to all, and to encourage such a regard for it as might appear in his own substantial testimony to its importance. It is a less singular feature of the bequest, that it favours alike all religious denominations in the parish, nearly two-thirds of all the children of the Milne schools belonging to the Established and Free Churches, and nearly one-third to the Roman Catholic. The donor, himself, it may be remarked, was of the latter connexion, and willing that his gift should have a really Catholic application. The late rector, in his report to the directors, observes, 'That there is always about 20 per cent. or one in every five, of the whole population receiving education in the parish' (where there are several schools besides those mentioned), 'and that during the months of January and February the number rises to nearly 25 per cent. or one in four of the whole inhabitants of the parish.'"

This extract showed that if they liberally provided, on tolerant principles, for the education of the people, there would be no real difficulty found in dealing with the subject. But he wished the House to observe, also, that even those who differed from him in theory on this subject did not differ much from him in practice. Dr. Candlish said—

"The denominational system had many advantages, and it was not open to the objection very often urged against it, that it tended to teach sectarianism, at least to any extent like what had been attributed to it. In point of fact, in no school in Scotland, established, Free Church, or any other, was sectarianism, properly speaking, taught at all; in no school whatever was a system of prosclytism prevalent over broad Scotland."

He then said, that the character of the Church gave security for the teachers' character. On another occasion Dr. Candlish said—

"He would desiderate the amendment which he had asked at the very outset, and to which Dr. Chalmers referred in the document quoted, that the Government should take no cognisance whatever of the religion taught within the schools. He desiderated, in fact, the universal adoption of the rule which they had consented to adopt in certain particular cases, namely, the dispensing altogether with the certificate of religious instruction as regarded these schools; that, according to his mind, would exempt the scheme from the reproach to which it was now open, that of indiscriminately endowing all religions. The scheme would then be one giving aid to schools simply in consideration of the secular education given in them."

He would also refer to an important document on the subject of education which lately had made some sensation in Scotland, and which had obtained the signatures of a great number of influential men of all denominations. The signers of that document agree with Dr. Chalmers—

"That there is no other method of extrication from the difficulties with which the question of education is encompassed in this country than the plan suggested by him as the only practicable one, namely, 'that in any public measure for helping on the education of the people, Government should abstain from introducing the element of religion at all into their part of the scheme.'"

He only wished to say a few words more. He had brought forward this plan with great reluctance. He regarded it as an unfortunate circumstance both for himself and the House that he should have been obliged to step forward in this manner at all; but the urgency of the question, in his opinion, was such, that if he could only do something to lay the basis of a sounder system, he felt that he would not be justified in withholding his views upon it. The plan which he had the honour to propose proceeded upon the old territorial system, and the principal difference between it and the Act of 1803 was, that in the present Bill he proposed to abolish all tests. Some fifty or sixty teachers had been expelled from the parochial schools within the last few years for no other reason but that they attended the Free Church. He wished to prevent the recurrence of such unjustifiable proceedings. There was one important provision which he had thought very desirable, but which, knowing, as he did, the dislike to additional taxation, he had not ventured to introduce—he meant a provision making it compulsory to provide a sufficient number of schools. He adhered to the system of local taxation, aided by grants from the Government. That practice of receiving grants from the general taxation of the country was a practice of which he did not much approve; but it was a practice which he could not attempt to abolish. He proposed, therefore, that assistance should be given by the State, not in aid of voluntary contributions, but in aid of local taxation. He had also introduced clauses providing that there should be pensions granted to superannuated schoolmasters, and that there should be a strict examination of all schoolmasters previously to their receiving their appointments. He believed that the expense of the charges which he contemplated would not be so great as some Gentlemen might imagine. The expenditure which the adoption of the measure would entail would amount, he believed, to about 125,000 l. a year, while the cost of the present system amounted to about 40,000 l. a year. But he certainly thought that the wealth of Scotland ought to contribute a larger sum than it contributed at present for the education of the people.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

seconded the Motion.

said, he had listened with great attention to the speech of the noble Lord, and should certainly regard it as a very able statement. With many of the statements of the noble Lord he did not feel inclined to differ; but he should remark that the important part of the noble Lord's statement, namely, the explanation of the principle on which the measure was founded, was the part that seemed to occupy least of his attention, and to which he had also devoted the smallest portion of his observations. The noble Lord had asserted that the system upon which education was based in Scotland was defective and deficient. Now, it had been one of the great objects of the fathers of the Scottish Reformation to take care that there should be a school in every parish, "for the godly upbringing of children;" and they seemed to feel that any system of education that was not based on religious principles would be all the same as nugatory. From the very first the parochial schools had been part and parcel of the institutions of Scotland. He would not even confine their existence within the period of the Reformation in Scotland and the present; because even prior to the Reformation, in the Roman Catholic era, the parochial schools existed. However, the system received the sanction of the Reformation, as also of the revolution of 1696, which formed the groundwork of the existing system in Scotland. By the law as it stood at present, schools were established in every parish, built and maintained by a tax on the land; and out of this tax also were paid the teachers and the clergy, as also the expenses of building and repairing churches and places of worship. Therefore, in looking at the intentions of the Scottish Reformers, it was evident that the principle which emanated from them, namely, educating the people and defraying the expenses of public worship by means of a tax on land, was at present being carried into effect. The Free Church considered it to be so essential a part of the territorial system to have a school attached to every church, that they had built and endowed schools in no less than 600 parishes within the last three or four years. They considered it essential that all entrusted with the education of the people should patronise schools, deeming education to be the handmaid of religion; and to that feeling Scotland owed the position she held of possessing the most moral, religious and educated class of people of any nation. Nevertheless, he admitted that one school was not sufficient in each parish, and that the parochial system could never be applied to the remote districts in the Highlands or in crowded cities. He admitted that there were some defects in the present educational system in Scotland; but he did not think that these defects were by any means as great as they were sometimes represented to be. The noble Lord had stated that there were at the present moment 330,000 children receiving education in Scotland. Now, he believed that the noble Lord had rather overstated the number, which, in his opinion, could not well amount to more than 300,000 children. By an abstract of the population as taken in 1841, he found that the total number of children in Scotland between the ages of five and fifteen — just the period at which education was generally imparted—amounted to 600,000. But then the evidence of the Educational Commissioners went to show that in the various schools which they had examined, instead of being anything like 15 years of age, four-fifths of them were under 10 years, and those of 12 years did not amount to more than one-sixth. The cause was easily explained, because in the manufacturing and mining districts children of 12 and 13 years were, by their industry, a source of profit to their parents, who preferred to have them employed at remunerative wages to going to school, which was more important to them than amassing education. That was an evil not to be remedied by the erection of new schools, but by exalting the moral and physical condition of the parents themselves, and showing them the great and important benefits to be derived from education. With regard to the numbers in Scotland not able to read or write, it would be necessary, before censuring the country for that deficiency on the part of its inhabitants, to show how many of them were natives of the country. He believed if the statistics of the large towns and cities were closely investigated, particularly those of Glasgow, it would be found that a large number of that deficient class had immigrated to Scotland at no remote period; and consequently the system of education in that country was not chargeable with their ignorance as regarded reading and writing. When the hon. Member for Oldham called attention to the necessity of levying a rate and making the provision of education compulsory, because of the alleged failure of the voluntary system, he was probably right in having done so. But no complaint of the inefficiency of the voluntary system could be charged against Scotland, as evidenced by the erection of 600 schools within five years, which evinced no want of zeal on the part of the Free Church in the cause of education. Indeed he might say the Established Church had also done its duty. In addition to the parochial schools, large sums were voluntarily contributed by the General Assembly for the purpose of building and endowing schools in remote and thinly inhabited districts. In 1842 the number of pupils attending each school was, on an average, about 70; whilst in 1848 they numbered upwards of 80 in each school. The ragged schools had also worked much benefit in bringing up those children abandoned to the neglect of the world, and imparting to them an elementary and industrial education, as well as providing them with food and clothing—in fact, the schools had realised all the objects expected by their philanthropic founders. Although he was in favour of extending the educational principle in Scotland, yet he did not find the condition of things there to be such as to warrant him in calling for the abolition of a system which had prevailed for centuries, and to which system Scotland was indebted for the exalted position she held amongst nations. The noble Lord had adverted to the very inadequate salaries paid to the masters of schools under the present system. Now, though he (Sir G. Clerk) thought the people of Scotland would not object to see these salaries increased, yet, in his opinion, the masters should be kept more or less dependent on the emoluments they derived from these schools, and not be induced to become negligent by a State salary. But why, he would ask, were the parochial schools the only schools with which the noble Lord proposed to deal? It should be observed that that measure would in no way interfere with the schools founded by the Free Church. And yet it appeared that the Free Church did not approve of the Bill: for a large majority of the members of a general assembly of that Church had joined Dr. Candlish in opposing it. The noble Lord might depend upon it that no system of education from which religious education was excluded, would receive the support of any considerable portion of the people of Scotland. The question was, did the educational wants of Scotland become such as to require so sweeping a change as that recommended by the noble Lord? It was admitted that the Dissenters felt no practical grievance in sending their children to schools patronised by the Establishment; and the only grievances complained of by them, according to the evidence of the Rev. Dr. Taylor, were two in number, namely, that the masters were selected from the Established Church, and that the schools were also placed under the control of that Church. The noble Lord proposed to establish a board of one paid commissioner, one paid secretary, and four or five ex-officio members to manage and control the system of education in Scotland. But the House must be aware that in all cases of a similar nature, the duties almost invariably devolved on the salaried officials; and he might then say, whatever amount of support the proposition of the noble Lord might meet with in that House, there was but one feeling in Scotland respecting the system, and that was one of opposition. No Dissenter objected to send his child to school in Scotland by reason of the religious education imparted there; and, such being the feeling of liberality amongst them, he thought a very strong case should be made out by the supporters of the noble Lord's proposition, to induce the people of that country to alter the existing system. As regarded the secular nature of the education proposed to be imparted by the proposition of the noble Lord, he (Sir G. Clerk) would caution the House how they separated the Church from the school, because in his opinion the result would be to lower that tone of religion and morality for which the people of Scotland were distinguished, and which, beyond a doubt, resulted from the principles imparted to them by their present system of education. He therefore objected to the principle of the Bill, because it aimed at a severance of the Established Church from the parochial school. Indeed he might say that was the main and principal feature of the Bill, as everything else contained in it might be adopted or rejected at the pleasure of the people of each parish. The system, if carried into effect, would put an end to the superintendence of the Church, and render it no longer necessary that the master of the school should be a member of that Church. What he then called on the House for was noninterference with the parochial schools; and he besought of them, whatever they might do, to do it in encouragement of them rather than otherwise. The Church of Scotland looked with no jealous eye on the aid given to the Free Church or other schools. In Scotland there already existed a compulsory assessment for the support of education; and he thought the people of that country would have good cause to complain if any additional burden, such as the measure of the noble Lord contemplated, were placed upon them. Had the proposition of the hon. Member for Oldham been adopted, as regarded England, then, indeed, there would be a precedent for extending compulsory educational taxation to Scotland. However, though a precedent, it would not be a justification, as, according to that hon. Member, the voluntary system was falling away in England, whilst, not long since, upwards of 20,000 l. had been collected by the Established Church in Scotland, to be devoted to the purposes of education. Therefore he said, give the voluntary system a fair and impartial trial, and he believed that in a few years it would overtake, or nearly overtake the deficiency at present complained of in education. He maintained that the Bill of the noble Lord did not provide for that deficiency, which could not be obviated by the parochial committee to be established under it. He admitted that the law under which these schools were at present regulated was imperfect, and required amendment; and he trusted, therefore, that Her Majesty's Ministers would give the matter their most serious attention and consideration, and that they would modify what ap- peared to them to be harsh, and improve where at present there might be deficiency. The system of parochial instruction in Scotland was one which ought not to be touched with a rash hand. Parochial schools opposed no barrier to the extension of education in Scotland; but by securing a limitation of these schools, it prevented schools being established from which the religious element should be entirely excluded; and he implored the House, whatever they did to extend their system, to leave untouched the present system of parochial schools. He should, therefore, move that the Bill be read a second time upon that day six months.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

said, that if he thought that, in assenting to the second reading of the Bill, he was at the same time pledging himself implicitly to its details, he should have hesitation in giving to the Bill his humble support; but there were matters of detail embodied in this Bill which could be settled in Committee, and which would render the Bill more acceptable to the parties for whom it was intended. There were two principles in this Bill—popular control, and the exclusion of religious tests. To these two principles he was ready to give his most cordial assent. He believed they were principles which would find acceptance amongst the great body of the people of Scotland, and he believed they were the principles which lay at the root of all just legislation on this subject. He could not altogether divest himself of the opinion which had been indicated in the petitions presented to the House, that there was something of church party, or of a contest for church supremacy, in this matter, and he thought that the two principles of the Bill would be worked out by people of all classes; and when the measure had passed into a law, he believed there would be no class of people more anxious to work it out for good than those very clergy who intimated their dissent from it. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dovor had reasoned on the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, and the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Oldham, as if they wished to exclude religion from the teaching in schools, or to exclude the clergy from the management of them. He knew something of the state of feeling in Scotland, and he knew that no Act would be passed by this House which would exclude religion from the schools of Scotland, or would exclude the clergy from the management. He did not think that one thing or the other was desirable; they owed everything to the clergy as to the moral condition and education of the people; but they owed it not to one sect or the other. His knowledge of the county which he had the honour to represent placed him in the position of knowing one or two of these schools; he knew one where the attendance for many years had not exceeded ten or twelve persons, and another where there was an assembling of fifty Dissenting children. This was one of the schools which stood in the position of being a handmaid to the Church; it was within twenty yards of the minister's house. It was for the House then to consider whether, in the present condition of the Church of Scotland, they would give the clergy additional power in the control of these schools. He did not think this was a time for entering into the details of the measure brought forward by the noble Lord; but he would observe that if a retiring allowance were given to the clergy who were no longer able to discharge their duties, they would find the schoolmasters of the country gradually coming within the pale of their income. He considered it as a reproach to the Government that so little had been done by the Exchequer of this country for the support of the schools within it. We were prodigal in some respects, and parsimonious in others. We had charitable institutions whose wealth was almost fabulous, and we suffered a generation to grow up in ignorance. He believed that unless something was done to raise the intellectual and moral condition of the people, the accumulating wealth of this country would cease to be a blessing to the people themselves, and they would feel the evil of the course they were pursuing in their alienation and discontent.

said, that the House was not in possession of the information which was absolutely necessary for it to deal with so momentous a question. The House at this moment possessed information on the subject contained only in one return, which did not occuppy more than one sheet of paper. The whole number of returns amounted to six; and the Select Committee which was appointed on the subject in 1835 had never examined any witness, had never been reappointed, and there the matter ended. Would the House vote for the change of the whole educa- tional system of Scotland without examining a single witness? Would they cut up by the roots a system which John Knox had begun—which took 100 years before it was brought into being—a system which was part of the revolutionary settlement? Were they going to blow all that to the winds because a noble Lord had come to the House and made an able speech of one hour? The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had said that there were two principles in the Bill, first, popular control, and then the exclusion of religious tests. He asked the hon. Member to read the Bill, and see if there was anything like popular control in it. This Bill enacted that there should be a board in Edinburgh, consisting of twelve persons, seven of whom were directly appointed by the Crown, and of the other five, one was a great officer of State. The Lord Advocate, the Solicitor General for Scotland, and three Members, were appointed by the Government; there was a paid chairman and paid secretary; the Principal of the University of Glasgow, the Principal of the University of Edinburgh, and the Rector of the High School, of whom three were to be the board. So far from this Bill giving popular control over the education of Scotland, it was at the disposal of three men sitting in Edinburgh, with a committee in every parish. They were to determine the branches of education to be taught; but the Committee of Education might disallow any of these. This would give the Government power for political purposes. But there was a much stronger reason why the House should reject this Bill. From the Bill there had been totally excluded any mention at all of a subject which never could be lightly passed over—the subject of religion. The noble Lord who moved the second reading of the Bill, had said that in no previous Act of Parliament was there any mention of religion; but the noble Lord seemed totally to have forgotten the Act in the reign of James VI., in 1567, and he had omitted to read the Act of 1596. The Act of 1690 made it imperative that every schoolmaster in Scotland should sign the Confession of Faith, which was a most laborious dogmatic statement of the various principles which the Church of Scotland held. Were schoolmasters to put their names to this confession of faith as a matter of form? Was it illusory? This Bill was totally silent as to religion. By this Bill the heads of families had no sort of control over the school, and he thought that this Bill could not possibly meet with the approval of the Association for the Improvement of Education. He had ventured to address the House, because he was not a member of the Established Church of Scotland; because he thought there were great defects at present with regard to the administration of schools, which might be easily amended; but his principal reason for addressing the House was, that he thought a person not a member of the Established Church might be listened to without any suspicion that he wished to advance the interests of the Established Church of Scotland. He had no wish to extend the jurisdiction of the Church, or by any side wind to cut away from the Church the endowments to which they were entitled. He considered that this Bill was the first step to such a consummation, and such a consummation ought not to come until the people of Scotland had made up their minds. He should support the Amendment of his right hon. Friend the Member for Dovor.

looked upon this as one of the gravest and most important subjects, and second only to the question which had formerly been introduced, namely, the claim of rights which had preceded the disruption in the Church of Scotland. In his opinion nothing could affect this country more deeply than the system of education so placed upon right principles as to be general and available to the whole community. The principle that he found laid down in this Bill was, shortly, that the means of education in Scotland were inadequate to the present circumstances and population of the country, and that it was expedient that the established means of education should be amended, and more ample means provided. In discussing that principle, he meant to discuss it in a spirit not hostile to the parochial schools of Scotland—not hostile to the Established Church of Scotland, or to any institution that existed in Scotland. The system was a national system in the same way that the Church in Scotland was a national Church. That did not last long. Although the Scotch endeavoured, when they gave their allegiance in 1690, to surround their ecclesiastical system and their school system, as far as they possibly could, with every guard of legislative enactment, in a few short years, in 1711, the system was broken in upon; and then began the disseverance of the Church of Scotland from the people of Scotland which had been so fearfully accomplished in our own days. Dissent in 1735 took its first position in the land, and in 1843 that event took place, that the Church, which was once a national Church, became the Church of the minority of the people. Was it likely that any system of education should be recognised in Scotland solely and exclusively under the guidance of the Church of the minority? It was hopeless to suggest that any improvement in the condition of the schoolmaster would ever be listened to by the Parliament of this country as long as these schools remained close corporations. At this moment the schoolmasters in Scotland were obliged to be members of the Established Church; they were obliged to subscribe to the Confession of Faith, and they were were obliged to subscribe formularies. There were many who would like to see these tests abolished altogether. There was no more necessity for introducing the religious element into this Bill, than there was in times past. With 600 schools established by the Free Church of Scotland within these few years, there was still a portion of the population, amounting to 300,000, whose education was not provided for. A system might be established which would take up all the schools which were working on their own foundations. It was universally true that the voluntary efforts of the Free Church to educate their population had not, to the extent proposed, been successful. They saw parochial schools to which they might send their children, but having no knowledge of what the children were doing, they would not send them. There were many statistical details in Scotland; but there was no statistical information whereby they could know the means of education, and the parties who availed themselves of it. It would be a most useful thing if such inquiries were made; but of this he was sure, that unless something were done to make a common system in his country, they would have matters go on from bad to worse, and instead of the population being improved, it would be deteriorated. Was there any country in the world where one system of education could more easily be established? The population followed the same profession of faith; they read the same religious book; and on no point of doctrine would three-fourths of the people of Scotland differ. What prevented their being gathered into one system? The jealousy and difference upon small points of discipline. If each party would consent to yield but a little, he could conceive such a system of education to be established as would secure the best teachers, and prevent rivalry in the same district. The inspection of these schools should be open to the clergy of all denominations; no one sect holding a higher authority or place than the others. With such a system the people of Scotland would not only be more numerously educated than the population of other countries, but they would be educated more in harmony with one another, while each one followed his own religious creed. Such a system would also do away with much of the sectarian asperity that now existed. Entertaining these opinions, he should cordially vote for the second reading of this Bill, without pledging himself to details. He voted that way, because, looking to the state of things in Scotland as regarded education, he saw clearly that unless there was timely interference by the State, there would be a more dangerous interference made by the people.

said, that the great boast of the national education of Scotland was its connexion with religion, and this Bill, if he understood it aright, was calculated to dissolve that connexion. He believed that they would never have heard of the measure had it not been for the ambitious desire of the Free Church to get the control of the parochial schools of Scotland. Why alter a system which had given such satisfaction to all sects and denominations? He had it from Dr. Macleod, that the school in the Hebrides was frequented by the children of the Roman Catholic inhabitants, and that recently their priest having attempted to remove them, he was admonished by his diocesan, and the children allowed to remain, with a warm acknowledgment from the bishop as to the merits of the school. Believing that the present system of education in Scotland had made its people enlightened, moral, and religious, and that any attempt to secularise it would be attended with serious mischief, he should give his cordial support to the Amendment of his right hon. Friend the Member for Dovor.

was willing to admit that the system of education in Scotland had worked well, but he thought that under existing circumstances its efficiency would be increased by the Bill of the noble Lord. The existing system had worked admirably, while the Church, of Scotland remained undivided; but now that there was so much difference of opinion on questions of religious discipline, some modifications were, in his opinion, absolutely necessary. Having these views, he felt bound to support the second reading, reserving to himself the power of amending the details in Committee.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 94; Noes 100: Majority 6.

Words added; Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Second Reading put off for six months.

, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill said, he characterised it as of great importance to the working classes of this country. The very large proportion of the adult male population above twenty years of age, who were enrolled in one or another of these societies, was not generally known, and if the House would permit him to read a statement which he held in his hand, the importance of the matter would become more apparent. The number of Friendly Societies enrolled and registered under Act of Parliament in England, amounted to nearly 14,000; the num- ber of members of those societies was 1,600,000; their annual income amounted to 2,800,000 l., and their accumulated capital to 6,400,000 l. The total number of societies in England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, was 33,000, and the number of members 3,052,000. The total number of societies in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, was not less than 33,232, and the aggregate of members which they included amounted to 3,032,000. The annual revenue of these societies was 4,980,000 l., and the accumulated capital from the savings of these poor persons, was no less a sum than 11,360,000 l. According to the last census, the male population of the country above the age of 20 years, was only 6,300,000. It followed, therefore, that one out of two of the male population, according to these returns, was either enrolled or in some way or other interested in benefit and friendly societies. The subject, therefore, was one of great interest and importance to this numerous class. The Bill embodied two important points. It embodied and consolidated the existing law relative to enrolled Friendly Societies; and it gave legal protection to that very large mass of societies which, at the present moment, justly complained they were not allowed the common privilege of Englishmen, namely, that, if cheated or ill-treated, they might appeal to the laws of their country for protection and redress. He asked the House to give to these societies no privilege but that which the Committee of last Session, after full inquiry, said they ought to have. He only asked the House to give them a legal character, so that when they went into a court of law for their own protection, they might not be met, as hitherto, by the question, "Are you enrolled or are you not?" At present they were obliged to say, in answer to this question, "We are not enrolled;" so that, however strong might be the opinion of the judge or the magistrate that morally the decision ought to be in their favour, the answer to this question was fatal to their rights. The practical result of this state of things was that every year, especially among the Odd Fellows and others, thousands were lost to these associations from their want of a legal character. It was proposed in the Bill that unenrolled societies should go through the same process, as a means of security, that all other societies of the same description were required to undergo. They would by required to send to the registrar copies of their rules, returns of their numbers, with other information; but the Bill would not require, as in the case of enrolled societies, that their tables should be certified by an actuary. He proposed that for the registration the main body should pay the customary fee of one guinea, but that in the case of the branches the fee should be only 2 s. 6 d., and these provisionally certified societies would be required to appoint trustees, in whom their property would be vested; an officer, whose business it would be to keep the accounts; and a board or committee of management. On the other hand, he proposed to give to such provisionally certified societies the privilege which, for many years, had been conceded to Freemasons, namely, that although they used secret signs, and were divided into branches, the provisions of the Corresponding Societies Act should not be applicable to them so long as they were duly enrolled and certified by the registrar. He did not think that Parliament, in its wisdom, would hesitate to grant this simple privilege to so large a portion of Her Majesty's subjects. The Bill also extended to burial societies, altering the provisions of the 9th and 10th Victoria so as to require the certificate of the surgeon and coroner as to the cause of death, instead of the certificate of the surgeon and a householder. He required, moreover, an attestation that the whole of the money had been expended in the burial, and that no child should be entered under the age of 10 years, instead of 6 years, as by the present law. He believed that these provisions would afford sufficient guarantees against the abuse to which these societies had been subjected. He might, in the next place, be asked what guarantee was afforded by the Bill that it would not be used for the support of a vast number of unsound, bankrupt, and objectionable societies. That was a reasonable question, and he was happy to say he was prepared with a satisfactory answer. It was, that the Bill required, in return for the advantages it gave, the great security given by publicity. Every society, whether certified absolutely or provisionally, would be required to furnish an annual balance-sheet to the registrar. It would be part of the registrar's duty to require and enforce the delivery of these annual balance-sheets, and the registrar would be required to lay them before Parliament every year in such a shape that hon. Gentlemen could immediately see the nature of the transactions of every society in the kingdom during the preceding twelve months. He considered that the publicity thus secured would be an effectual check upon malversation, maladministration, and abuse. On the whole, he believed the House would concur with him, that a measure founded upon the principles he had indicated, would be the means of placing these institutions, which were so beneficial to the working classes, upon a sound and healthy basis. He was not aware of any intention to object to the second reading of the Bill; but a number of suggestions had been made for the improvement of the details, which were worthy of consideration. If, therefore, the Bill was read the second time, he would take the earliest possible opportunity of moving its committal pro formâ, in order that amendments might be introduced into it; and that, when next discussed, it might appear in more perfect shape, though, at the same time, he was far from admitting it required any very great improvement.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Second Time."

seconded the Motion. The objects of the societies with which the Bill was associated were most excellent and beneficial, inasmuch as they provided assistance in case of sickness and death; and they had, indirectly, the merit of encouraging habits of prudence, economy, and forethought. But in the present state of the law, whilst exposed to fraud and injustice, they had not the means of enforcing their rights. This measure secured those rights. For that reason he hoped the House would consent to the second reading. The details, he admitted, were capable of considerable improvement; but it was quite clear that a measure founded upon such principles would tend to develop those prudential virtues, which were essential to the welfare, comfort, and happiness of the working classes.

said, he should not object to the second reading of the Bill; but, having regard to the morals and well-being of the population, he thought a subject of so much importance to the largest class in the community ought to have been introduced upon the responsibility of Government. There was a great deal of insecurity and uncertainty with regard to all measures of a general nature brought in by private Members; whilst nothing could be more mischievous than to permit a state of doubt and expectation as to changes in the law. It was the duty of the House to see that the Government should undertake to make a distinct consolidation of the law relating to societies of this description, so that when it was settled, it might be settled once for all, in order to prevent doubts in the minds of the labouring population on these subjects. He approved generally of the objects of the Bill. But he must say that benefit societies had been taken advantage of by the rich, who had converted them into means of assurance and profit. The Bill provided against this abuse. In the case of savings banks the Government had undertaken to pay interest upon the large sums of money invested in those institutions—more than the current rate of interest, and they, in consequence, had been taken advantage of by the rich. It was a disgrace to the wealthier classes of the community that Parliament should thus be obliged to hunt them out for having availed themselves of benefits which were intended only for the poor. The hon. Gentleman had in his Bill most completely provided against this abuse. Still, being a private Member, he could not deal with the subject so efficiently as the Government, because the question was not one for a private Member. It was rather a question for the whole House, acting through the Administration; and, therefore, he asked the Government to take it into their own hands.

rose to call attention to one point which had not been referred to by the hon. Mover of the Bill, namely, the want of security for those who invested their savings in these friendly societies. The guarantee the hon. Gentleman proposed was publicity. He (Mr. Scrope) doubted whether that would be effectual. The object of these societies was twofold—one present, or nearly so; the other deferred. First, they afforded the means of making provision for sickness; and secondly, of providing annuities in old age, assurances in case of death, and provision for children—these latter benefits not falling due until probably twenty or thirty years from the commencement of the process of investment. Unless some security were afforded that the objects of such investments should be fulfilled, these societies became mere traps to the poor—an evil which it was the duty of Parliament to remedy. The hon. Gentleman did not propose to require the certificate of an actuary as to the correctness of the calculations of societies applying to be registered; and the result of this omission, he feared, would be to encourage the operation of societies founded on false tables and unsound calculations. He suggested that the hon. Gentleman should postpone his Bill until they saw the fate of the Savings Banks Bill, which ought to be the basis of any new Friendly Societies Bill.

could not agree with the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield that the Government ought to take this Bill out of the hands of his hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire, who had paid much attention to the subject, and deserved the thanks of the House on that account. Nor did he agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was the duty of the Government to undertake the management of all Bills on important subjects which might be introduced; on the contrary, he thought it more desirable that those independent Members who had experience on particular questions, and leisure to attend to them, should be allowed to give the House the benefit of their knowledge by introducing such measures as they might consider necessary in regard to them, leaving it to the Government to examine them, and propose such amendments as they might consider necessary. The Government did not underrate the importance of this subject, nor the difficulty of legislating on it; but to adopt the suggestions of the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, and secure all those persons who invested their money in these societies, was impossible. Many of them were enrolled, but a vast number were not; and without an interference on the part of the Government which would create alarm, and which in this country would never be tolerated, it would be impossible for the Government to guard against fraud in every case. If the principle of self-government were retained, the risk to a certain degree must remain with the depositors. It was true, as the hon. and learned Member had stated, that in many cases parties for whose benefit these societies were never intended, had availed themselves of them in lieu of mortgages, bonds, and assurances, in consequence of the high rate of interest they afforded. The object of the Legislature in regard to these societies undoubtedly was, that they should be for the benefit of the poorer classes only, to encourage in them habits of economy and prudence; and it was a perversion of the intentions of Parliament that persons in the higher ranks of life should avail themselves of the advantages which they afforded, and thus contribute to entail a loss upon the country. But these questions would arise more properly in discussing the clauses of the Bill; therefore he recommended, as the better course, that the House should assent to the second reading, and postpone the discussion of these matters of detail until the Committee.

thought it would be proper to consider in Committee whether the scope of the Bill was sufficiently extensive, and whether it would effect all the objects embraced in the former Bill. It would be well to give the working classes the means of insuring themselves against the want of employment, caused by the fluctuations of trade or the seasons, out of the produce of their own labour during the period for which they were employed. Some remedy against fraud or peculation on the part of Members should also be given, and the societies should be enabled to enforce their rules, without the necessity of going into a court of law.

begged to inform the hon. Member that the objects to which he alluded were provided for by the Bill before the House. Knowing the immense importance of this measure, he was happy to find that the feeling of the House was unanimous in its favour. With respect to an efficient guarantee, it had been the great object and the great difficulty of the framers of this Bill. The fact was, that the guarantee of publicity was the only one which any one had yet been able to suggest.

Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday next.

The House adjourned at a Quarter before Six o'clock.