moved an Amendment, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, on the ground that the erection of the bridge was a work of a public character, and that the present proposal to erect a temporary bridge was in opposition to the decision of the Committee appointed some time since to inquire into the subject.

Amendment proposed, to add at the end of the Question the words, "to a Select Committee."

Question put, "That those words be there added."

saw no reason for the Motion. Everybody knew that there had already been a considerable expenditure by the trustees to render Westminster-bridge safe. Three of the arches were now supported by shores and piles. He did not believe there was any immediate danger, but the time must come when it would be absolutely necessary that a new bridge should be built. That had been recommended by the Committee, and the only question was as to the site of the new bridge. The Committee recommended that the new bridge should be built at the expense of the public; and the question was, whether it should be rebuilt on the present site, and a temporary bridge be built while it was being erected, or whether the new bridge should be built lower down the river, and the present bridge be used temporarily. No person entertained the opinion that the bridge should be done away with altogether. If that were done, the sacrifice of property on both sides of the river would be immense. The Committee, after a careful consideration of the subject, came to the conclusion that the best site for the new bridge would be the existing site. If so, it would be necessary that a temporary bridge should be built; but if the Bill were referred to a Select Committee, it would occasion the delay of a year or two. The commissioners had a fund for providing a temporary bridge, which it was estimated would cost between 25,000 l. and 30,000 l., without coming to the public at all.

thought it right that Parliament should give the trustees power to build a temporary bridge; but as they had ample funds, power should not be given them (as it was proposed) to mortgage their property for that purpose.

said, the trustees of Westminster-bridge had already expended between 70,000 l. and 80,000 l. in order to keep the bridge safe and in repair. With regard to the new bridge which it would be necessary to build, he objected to its being built on the present site. He was of opinion it ought to be lower down the river.

said, the question of the approaches to the new bridge was one of great public importance, and well worthy of being referred to the consideration of a Select Committee. It was said a temporary bridge would cost between 25,000 l. and 30,000 l. Why should not that sum be employed in the improvements necessary for making approaches to the new bridge? The manner in which the present bridge obstructed the view of the New Houses of Parliament must have convinced every one that the bridge ought to be entirely removed, and a new bridge erected lower down the river. It was this paltry spirit of economy which, for the sake of saving a few pounds, had been the cause of all those unsightly buildings and inconvenient approaches that had totally destroyed what would otherwise have been great improvements in this metropolis.

said, that any man possessing the requisites of a civil engineer might tell whether the piers of Westminster-bridge were sound or not; it was therefore a disgraceful fact that 70,000 l. should have been expended in repairing that bridge, and that it should not be known to this day whether the piers were effectual to sustain the bridge. As it had been suggested that a better site for the new bridge might be fixed upon, he thought the subject was of sufficient consideration to justify its being referred to a Select Committee.

suggested that the Bill might be allowed to go to a private Committee, and that the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford might still afterwards move that it be referred to a Select Committee, and then on the third reading the question as to the site on which the new bridge should be built might be fully discussed.

said, it having been admitted by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that Westminster-bridge was a public bridge, and that the nation was responsible for building the new bridge, he thought the subject of sufficient importance to be referred to a Select Committee; he should therefore persist in his Amendment.

The House divided:—Ayes 138; Noes 15: Majority 123.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Bill committed to a Select Committee.

begged to put a question to the hon. and learned Attorney General: whether he could inform the House and the country by whose authority and directions the nine trees out of the ten previously marked to be cut down in Hyde Park had been cut down, and whether this act had been constitutionally exercised in the grounds which have been for so many years maintained out of the public purse, and by successive votes of the House of Commons for that purpose; also, whether this power is limited, or to what extent it may be carried, and for what special purposes, and if for what is termed a commission to afford accommodation for foreign markets, and the importation or warehousing of foreign goods?

said, that he would endeavour to answer the questions of the hon. and gallant Member satisfactorily. He could not answer the questions in the negative or the affirmative, without making a few observations. The House was, no doubt, aware that Hyde Park and Regent's Park belonged to the Crown in fee, and that they were transferred to the care of the Commissioners of the Woods and Forests, in consideration of the civil list. He would proceed on that statement to answer the question. He believed that the trees which had been cut down were cut down by the authority and the direction of the Commissioners of the Woods and Forests. The House would see at once, then, that so long as the Commissioners of the Woods and Forests had that authority, and kept within its limits, they acted constitutionally. They would also recollect that their power was limited by the Act 10 Geo. IV., which prevented them from granting leases of the parks for buildings or other purposes. They had, however, the right, during the life of the Crown, to cut down ripe or mature tim- ber, without the sanction of the Crown; and they possessed also the right to fell timber which was not mature or ripe, for the benefit of the Crown, if they had the sanction of the Crown for so doing. He believed that the Commissioners had, in this case, acted with the sanction of the Crown, and had, therefore, a right to cut the trees down. With respect to the power of erecting buildings, they had not the power to give a right to erect a permanent building. They had, however, the power to make temporary erections, if such were not detrimental to the interests of the public, for whom they acted as cestuis que trust. The reception houses of the Humane Society, for instance, were erected for the benefit of the public, and were taken no notice of. So long as the trustees of the public were not acting improperly, and making a breach of their trust, they were acting constitutionally.

wished to know from his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General, how the public were to interfere, if they thought the Commissioners were not doing their duty.

said that it was not for him to suggest the way in which the interference should be made.

wished to ask the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, when it is intended that the National Exhibition, 1851, should close; and whether, in consequence of the increasing dissatisfaction on the part of the public, that the proposed exhibition should take place in High Park, it would not be advisable that the selection of Hyde Park, as the intended site, should be reconsidered by the commission; also, whether, in the event of the amount raised or likely to be raised by voluntary subscriptions proving inadequate to defray the expenses of the exhibition, it is in the contemplation of Her Majesty's Ministers to ask Parliament, either this year or next, for any grant of public money towards such expenses? As to the first portion of his inquiry, he believed that the matter had been reconsidered, and he had no doubt that the noble Lord would give to the House the result of the deliberation of the Commissioners. With regard to the second part, it had been partly answered the other day by the right. hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade, who said that he had no apprehension that any of the public money would be called for. The right. hon. Gentleman relied on the voluntary subscrip- tions and the admission money taken at the door being sufficient to defray the expenses of the exhibition; but he wished to know, in case of that being found to be insufficient, who was to pay the expense? Did the Government not contemplate applying to the public for additional money in such a case? He was of opinion that the exhibition should be free to the public for three days in the week, otherwise it would not deserve the name of a national exhibition. At present the subscriptions amounted only to 60,000 l., and the Commissioners were going begging from door to door for more. He thought that such a course was derogatory to the character of the nation.

said, in answer to the first question of the hon. Gentleman, when it was intended that the exhibition should close, he had to state it was intended that the latest period at which the exhibition should close, should be the 1st of November, 1851. It was provided that within seven months after the close of the exhibition the contractors should remove all materials from the ground, and should replace the ground in its former state. In answer to the second question of the hon. Gentleman, "whether, in consequence of the increasing dissatisfaction on the part of the public that the proposed exhibition should take place in Hyde Park, it would not be advisable that the selection of Hyde Park as the intended site should be reconsidered by the Commission,"—he had to state that there had been two meetings of the Commissioners, both very full, and which sat for a considerable time, both on Saturday and that day; that the Commissioners had gone over all the reasons, both those which originally determined the choice of Hyde Park as the site, and those which now made it advisable to adhere to that site; and that it was thought best those reasons should be drawn up in the form of a report by the Commissioners to the Lords of the Treasury; and he now moved for a copy of that report. It would be printed and in the hands of hon. Members to-morrow, and then he trusted they would really weigh the reasons stated in it. As to the last question of the hon. Gentleman, "Whether, in the event of the amount raised, or likely to be raised, by voluntary subscriptions proving inadequate to defray the expenses of the exhibition, it was in the contemplation of Her Majesty's Ministers to ask Parliament, either this year or next, for any grant of public money towards such expenses?" he had to state, that it had never been in contemplation to ask for any grant for the purpose of the exhibition. The Government had always supposed that the subscriptions on the part of the public, and the money received at the doors, would be sufficient to pay the expenses of the exhibition. His persuasion was, that if the exhibition were to take place, as proposed, in Hyde Park, the subscriptions made by individuals and by the public, and the money received at the doors, would be sufficient to defray the expenses of the exhibition. Of course he could not answer that such would be the case, either if the exhibition did not take place in Hyde-park, or if, as his hon. Friend supposed, money was not to be received at the doors. Of course those things would change all the conditions as regarded the exhibition. But if it were carried out in the manner in which it was proposed, he considered that it would not be necessary to come to Parliament for a grant.

said, the hon. and learned Attorney General had stated that immature trees could only be legally cut down under the sign-manual, and that he believed such authority had been or would be forthwith given for those trees that had been cut down. Could the hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House whether the trees were not cut down previously to the issuing of such sign-manual; and, if so, whether they were legally cut down.

said, he knew nothing of the facts; he merely stated, in answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Lincoln, what was the ordinary course of practice in such cases. He apprehended the sign-manual or sanction of the Crown was merely for the purpose of showing hereafter that there had been no breach of trust by the Commissioners against the reversioners of the Crown. In strictness, on an intimation of the assent of the Crown, it would be perfectly legal if the trees were cut down before the sign-manual was issued.

wished to ask the noble Lord whether there existed in the Treasury, or in any other department of the State, a power to erect, or to consent to the erection, of any buildings in Hyde Park, without the consent of Parliament?

did not think a permanent building could be erected with- out the consent of Parliament, but the buildings proposed to be erected were of a temporary nature, and would be taken away.

understood the question before the House to be, that there should be laid before them a copy of the report of the Commissioners as to the preferable character of Hyde Park as the site for the exhibition; but that was not the question before the public. He thought the question before the public was one worthy of the consideration of that House; and he was prepared to go into the consideration of the whole question then, unless there was an understanding that the matter should be brought before the House at an early day. If the noble Lord would be good enough to say that he would give an early day for the purpose, he (Sir B. Hall) would not do so; but, if not, he, as a representative, not merely of a metropolitan district, but of the people of England, had the power of calling on them to determine whether they should present an address to Her Majesty, praying that Hyde Park might not be the site selected for the exhibition, he would be quite willing however not to make any Motion at the present period; but if the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, who had given notice of a Motion on the subject, did not do so, he should be prepared to move for an address to Her Majesty.

thought the House would be generally of opinion that it would be more to their advantage and to the advantage of the public to discuss this question with a knowledge of the facts. He was ready to give an early day on which Government Orders took precedence for any Motion being brought on upon this subject.

said, an early day was important, for a great deal of property in the neighbourhood of Hyde Park was at stake—many persons were withdrawing from that neighbourhood in consequence of the projected exhibition. Two builders had expended a large sum—as much as 150,000 l. —in that neighbourhood, and they were in a state of trepidation until the decision of the House was known.

believed the public were not half aware of what they might expect from this exhibition. Water carriage was requisite, and the immense masses of goods exhibited would have to be landed at Ranelagh Wharf, and conveyed through Grosvenor-place, Belgrave-square, or even Chesham-place.

said, that a deep feeling of indignation had been excited in the metropolis by what had already been done respecting this exhibition. Hyde Park was the property of the people, and they would not permit it to be further mutilated. A Royal Commission, as it was called, for the purpose of flattery, was appointed in January last; and ever since that begging-boxes had been sent round amongst all classes, down even to poor servants, to induce them to subscribe their hard-earned shillings to the great exhibition. One of the begging gentlemen waited on him (Colonel Sibthorp), on the part of the Royal Commissioners at Westminter; but he dismissed the suitor with the observation that he never would encourage foreigners to the displacement of native industry. The promoters of this delusive undertaking were not content with begging, they also resorted to intimidation. Tradesmen were addressed in this manner—"If you don't give us something for the exhibition, we will withdraw our custom from you, and recommend our friends to do the same." Although it was impossible to replace the trees which had been cut down, further mischief might be prevented.

said, that it might be objected that being an Irish Member of Parliament, he should take part in this discussion. However, as great inconvenience was expected to arise from having the exhibition in Hyde Park, he would take the liberty of suggesting how the difficulty could be overcome. For the infortion of hon. Gentlemen who had not had the advantage of visiting the city that he had the honour to represent, he begged to inform them that Her Majesty was the proprietor of a park in the city of Dublin, called Phœnix Park, which he believed was the largest, as it certainly was the most beautiful, park in Europe. There was a portion of it called the Fifteen Acres, be the same more or less, which in the times of duelling was consecrated by trials of the valour and courage of his countrymen. That portion of it comprised about sixty acres, and in the name of his fellow-citizens he would beg to offer to His Royal Highness Prince Albert, and to the noble Lord, and those who were seated with him in the Committee, the fee simple of the Fifteen Acres for the exhibition; and he could assure them that the people of Dublin would be exceedingly obliged to them for accepting it for that purpose. They would not consider it a grievance if the axe were applied to any of the trees, and would not exclaim with the hon. and gallant Member for Lincoln, "Woodman, spare that tree!" but would allow them to cut down as many as they wished in their anxiety to promote such an exhibition. Dublin had many advantages for such a purpose, inasmuch as it was very close to Yorkshire and Lancashire, and Galway was the next parish to America. Under all these circumstances, he would advise the Royal Commission to take the suggestion, and to accept the Fifteen Acres.

thought that Battersea-fields possessed advantages superior to any other locality for being the site of the exhibition. The fields were flanked by the river on one side, and a railway on the other. Owing to the facility of transporting materials, the building for the exhibition might be erected in Battersea-fields for 20,000 l. less than it would cost anywhere else. It would be only a mile from Buckingham Palace, presuming that a bridge was made, for which power had been taken by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests in the Act authorising the making of the park. It contained 300 acres, would afford ample accommodation, be in every respect most convenient, and, so far from the exhibition being there objected to, would be hailed by all who were connected with the district—so much so that a large sum would be raised for the purpose, and probably 10,000 l. saved to the public—the bridge itself being likely, in such case, to be erected by private speculation. If the building were erected there, and made permanent, the additional advantage would be gained of getting rid of the disgraceful nuisances which prevailed in Battersea-fields on Sundays.

said, that the Commissioners could not justly be accused of remissness in the discharge of their duties. The Commissioners, including those who were Members of the House, and who had been sitting in it till four o'clock on Saturday morning, met at ten o'clock the same day; and this day again they had assembled at eleven o'clock, and continued sitting till three. To meet the desire of the House to have the question decided, he would fix Thursday at five o'clock for the discussion.

said, that the question of expense was one of the most important considerations connected with the undertaking. It was to be feared that at some future period one of the Commissioners would rise in that House with a doleful face and an empty purse, and say that the exhibition had cost 300,000 l., whilst the funds in hand amounted to only 100,000 l. —that the Commissioners had incurred liabilities for a national object, and ought not to be allowed to suffer. The result of such an appeal might easily be anticipated. Much unpleasant feeling would be avoided hereafter by the Government coming at once to an understanding with the House upon this point. As to the system of begging from door to door, it was degrading, and should be abandoned forthwith. Had the Government taken into consideration the measures which must be adopted for the purpose of maintaining order during the six or seven months the exhibition would be open? Immense masses of people would be drawn to London by the show. The manufacturers were already recommending their workmen to save from their earnings a sum sufficient to bring them to London. 200,000 persons might be expected to visit London from the manufacturing districts. In France, also, persons were beginning to provide the means of visiting the British metropolis next spring. It might reasonably be anticipated that we should be favoured with the company of a large percentage of the millions recently disfranchised in France, who were called the "wandering population." Those persons would doubtless like the idea of coming to England, and think it très sociale. Our mechanics might be expected to set their foreign visitors an example of peaceful conduct; but the lovers of order and the owners of property would begin to think the presence of such large masses of people dangerous, and Government would find it necessary to employ a very large body of police or a military force. It would not look well to have special constables with white ribands on their arms and staves in their hands to receive and attend upon our foreign visitors. It would be found necessary to adopt precautions on a large scale, for troops could not be kept constantly under arms, and there must be numerous reliefs. All these matters required consideration.

Motion agreed to.

said, that previous to the House going into Committee of Supply, he begged to move for an inquiry into the circumstances under which a letter addressed by Mr. W. Smith O'Brien to a Member of this House, complaining of his having been placed in solitary confinement by the present Lieutenant Governor of Van Diemen's Land, was intercepted and opened in that colony by the local authorities. He considered that this was a matter which, although not in point of form, yet in point of substance, did concern the privilege of the House, and he trusted that hon. Members would give attention to their own privileges. The case was this, Mr. S. O'Brien having refused a ticket of leave offered to him, on giving his parole that he would not attempt to escape, was sent to a penal settlement at Maria Island, and he thought that in that situation he had reason to complain that the regulations of the island had been stretched by the Governor in his case, for the purpose of visiting him with an extraordinary degree of severity. He had consequently addressed a letter to him (Mr. Anstey) in his public capacity, as a Member of the House of Commons, complaining of his hardships, and soliciting his intervention. He was aware that in England and Ireland plenary powers were given to governors of gaols, in virtue of which they might open and detain letters addressed by convicts to their friends, outside; but the case was different in Van Diemen's Land. There was there no difference between free and bond: equal powers were given in both cases, and by a local Act a particular mode was pointed out for the transmission of, and charges on, convict letters; but beyond that there was no difference between free and bond, and equal penalties were awarded to the detention or opening of letters in either case. He thought he saw reason in this. In this country there were ample checks for abuse in the exercise of such a privilege; but in that enormous gaol, Van Diemen's Land, containing 40,000 prisoners, and situated 16,000 miles from the seat of Government, the most stringent checks and regulations were necessary to prevent tyranny. By law, governors had been given a right in the labour of convicts, and much abuse had been the consequence, the convicts being often employed on the private property of the governors, much to the benefit of the latter. At last it became absolutely necessary that active steps of repression should be taken by Lord Stanley; and the information on which these steps were founded, were mainly convict letters. He mentioned this to show that in the colony convicts had been in the habit of having the most perfect freedom of communication. Now Mr. S. O'Brien having addressed a letter to him (Mr. Anstey), "House of Commons," under cover, according to rule, to the superintendent of convicts, that letter was opened by the deputy-governor, who forwarded it, stating that he had opened it to ascertain what were the misrepresentations, as he called them, of Mr. S. O'Brien respecting his (the Governor's) conduct. It came to the Colonial Office, and was thence delivered to him (Mr. Anstey). Of that Office he had no complaint, his whole complaint being against the colonial Governor. He contended that the letter should have been at once forwarded to the Colonial Office; and there was no doubt but that Earl Grey would have sent it to him with the seal unbroken. If the Government had any privilege of opening letters in the colony, it was only upon information upon oath, that the letter contained something dangerous, it could do so. There had been none in this case, and therefore he contended that a harsh, impolitic, and not very honourable proceeding, had taken place. He had himself resided in the island, and had forwarded many letters from convicts to their friends, and he could declare upon his honour, that he had never known a letter to be opened, except in the case of sworn informations. The fact was, that in the island the standard of morality was so low, that people did not care whether a man was a convict or not, and all the landmarks between right and wrong were obliterated. He could state upon his own knowledge that it was not the custom in the colony to open the letters of convicts. As well might the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, when charged with opening letters, have alleged that it was a general practice in this country, as Sir W. Denison to assert it of Van Diemen's Land. Now there was nothing in Mr. S. O'Brien's letter to which the slightest objection could be taken. He complained of many of the regulations, but at the same time acknowledged the kindness he had received from many individuals in the island. He complained of the abominable society to which he was at first exposed, and acknowledged subsequent amelioration to some extent by being removed to a cottage where he was permitted the use of his books. He trusted that the House and the Government would see the necessity of further ameliorations, and feel satisfied with the amount of punishment which that misguided gentleman had already undergone. Mr. S. O'Brien had stated to him that such was the nature of the sufferings he had undergone, that he would have cheerfully preferred death to his present punishment. He (Mr. Anstey) believed that the Government were well inclined to diminish his sufferings, and he trusted that they would carry out their good intentions. He was prepared to justify Mr. S. O'Brien's refusal of the ticket of leave. It only comprehended the liberty of locomotion and of earning his bread to the convict; but let him insult the meanest snob that walked the island as a freeman, and he would be immediately placed in the black book. One of the convicts (Mr. M. Manus) had been put on his trial for an offence of that kind, and would have been put to work in a chain gang but for the merciful conduct of the magistrate. He knew Mr. S. O'Brien, and that his spirit would not have brooked the petty insults which would have been showered on him by the low persons who would have been only too willing to show him the immeasurable distance between bond and free. He trusted that his (Mr. Anstey's) remonstrance, experienced as he was in colonial matters, would have some effect on Her Majesty's Ministers. If they did not think that the time had come for granting these unfortunate men a free pardon, he trusted they would see the propriety of allowing them to go free to any part of the world except the British dominions. With these observations he should move the Amendment he had given notice of.

Amendment proposed—

"To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances under which a Letter addressed by Mr. William Smith O'Brien to a Member of this House, complaining of his having been placed in solitary confinement by the present Lieutenant Governor of Van Diemen's Land, was intercepted and opened in that Colony by the local authorities,'"

instead thereof.

seconded the Amendment, and referred to a petition from the county of Limerick, in which the deepest sympathy had been expressed for Mr. S. O'Brien, coupled with an earnest desire for some relaxation of his severe treatment.

thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Youghal himself must see on reflection that there was no ground for a Parliamentary inquiry into the circumstances to which his Motion referred. If the hon. and learned Gentleman supposed that the opening of the letter had arisen from any intention to act in a manner disrespectful to him, he was quite mistaken; it arose solely from the practice universally adopted by the Government with respect to convicts who had not tickets of leave, that being the position of Mr. S. O'Brien, and in which he had placed himself by his own act, in refusing to accept a ticket of leave. He must remind the House, that Mr. S. O'Brien and his companions having forfeited their lives to the laws of their country, the sentence passed on them had been commuted to transportation for life. Departing from what had been the uniform practice in these cases, the Government, taking all the circumstances into consideration, wishing on the one hand to enforce obedience to the law, and being unable, on the other, to concede a remission of the sentence, inasmuch as that might have led to a repetition of the crime, thought themselves warranted in granting tickets of leave to all the convicts who chose to accept them shortly after their arrival in the island. These tickets were accepted by three of the persons in question, but refused by Mr. S. O'Brien. Had he accepted the indulgence which the Government offered, he would have been placed in a class to which the restraints against which he now murmured would not have applied. Under these circumstances he was hardly entitled to claim a special exemption on his behalf from the ordinary regulations of the place. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to think it a violation of honourable feeling to open letters addressed to or by convicts; but it was what took place with respect to every person who had been made the object of a criminal sentence, whether in England or that country; and for this plain reason, that if letters were allowed to be freely transmitted by and to such persons, means of escape might be concerted, articles might be transmitted to the newspapers, and there might be a defiance of justice, turning the punishment of crime into a laughing-stock. Government had gone to the full extent to which they thought themselves justified in relaxing the severities of Mr. S. O'Brien's sentence. If, because Mr. S. O'Brien had been a gentleman and a Member of that House, he was to be treated in a way that would exempt him from all the inconveniences of his position, the only effect would be to hold up justice to contempt.

rose to express his sense of the hardship to which a colonial Governor like Sir W. Denison was exposed if he discharged his duty fairly and honourably, without any other feeling than that which he believed every other man in the country entertained to Mr. S. O'Brien. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that the law of the land ought to be fairly executed, and that there was no reason for showing favour to men of one class more than another. There was a kind of false sensibility rising up through the country, in consequence of which they had recently seen another crime committed in the shape of an outrage on the person of the Sovereign. For his part, he thought the law should be carried fairly and conscientiously out, without regard to the class of society to which the criminal might belong.

assured the Government that if the opportunity should occur, and he trusted it would arise during their tenure of office, to do an act of mercy towards Mr. S. O'Brien, they would, by availing themselves of it, secure to themselves the gratitude of all classes of the people of Ireland.

thought the right hon. Baronet had satisfactorily explained the conduct of the Government, and, in his opinion, these were questions which it would be fair to leave altogether in their hands. There was one point, however, apart from the treatment of Mr. S. O'Brien which deserved some attention. The hon. and learned Member for Youghal had complained that certain letters addressed to him as a Member of Parliament had been opened. Now, he did not know what the practice was now, but formerly he had known letters addressed by prisoners to Members of Parliament allowed to pass unopened. He admitted that it would be improper to allow indiscriminate communications from convicts to parties who were unknown to pass without examination; but at the same time it appeared to him that there should be some respect paid when the prisoner wished to make the communication to a Member of Parliament, for the purpose of complaining of improper treatment. To open letters of that description was carrying the regulation too far.

said, the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Youghal had originated in the circumstance that the seal of a letter addressed to himself had been violated by the Governor of Van Diemen's Land. He (The O'Gorman Mahon) did not believe that the Governor would have ventured to open that letter if it had been addressed to the Lord Chancellor, the Speaker of the House of Commons, or any one of the law dignitaries of the country; and he could not see, therefore, why he should be allowed to open it when addressed to a private Member of Parliament. He protested against the doctrine laid down by the hon. Member for Bridport, that there was no distinction between the case of Mr. S. O'Brien and that of any other convict. Mr. S. O'Brien's case was not analogous to that of other convicts. It was true that he had been subjected to condemnation after certain formularies had been gone through; but he (The O'Gorman Mahon) would candidly tell the House, that having been present at the trial at Clonmel, and having come from France to volunteer his evidence in favour of his hon. friend Mr. S. O'Brien, he had watched with attention the proceedings at the trial; and that if the House would appoint a Committee, and he were examined before it, he would explain his reasons for the declaration that he was by no means satisfied with the course pursued at that trial, and the mode by which the conviction of the hon. Gentleman was obtained. It was not his object, however, to rip that question up now; be merely volunteered his evidence if the House would appoint a Committee. He maintained that Mr. O'Brien was not in the same category as other convicts. True, by the construction which was put upon the law, he was found guilty of treason; but let the House mark what species of treason. It was treason unattended by the shedding of one single drop of blood. To be sure, a child, or an old woman, was shot by accident; but there was no collision and no destruction of property; and it was a notorious fact, that but for his friend William Smith O'Brien blood would have been shed, lives would have been lost, and property would have been destroyed to an enormous amount. He having then, at the risk of his own life, prevented the spoliation of property, and put a stop to the nefarious projects of others who sought to band themselves together, and urge him on to deeds which his soul disdained, and he himself having been the victim, would the hon. Member again assert that there was no distinction to be drawn between the man who had thus acted, sacrificing himself that he might save others, and those convicts who had been thrust out from civilised society as a curse, and whose conduct justified the punishment they endured? It was with extreme gratitude that he had listened to the observations which had dropped from Sir G. Grey; and he trusted that when the appropriate time arrived the Government would have the satisfaction of advising Her Majesty to an act of mercy which would ensure to Her an addition—if an addition were possible—to the attachment which already existed in the Irish bosom, and to Ministers themselves a participation in the gratitude of the nation.

must say that the Government had shown every disposition to meet all reasonable suggestions on behalf of Mr. S. O'Brien; but he thought the colonial authorities had not evinced the same desire. He would read a letter, written by a person in Van Diemen's Land, which had fallen into the hands of the hon. Member for Clare, which would show that there was some reason for the complaints which had been made on behalf of Mr. S. O'Brien. This letter was dated November 26, three weeks after Mr. S. O'Brien arrived in the colony, since when he admitted some change for the better might have been made, but it nevertheless gave some idea of the kind of treatment to which this unfortunate person had been subjected. [The hon. Gentleman read the letter, which stated generally that Mr. S. O'Brien had arrived in the colony three weeks ago, and having refused to accept the ticket of leave, he was sent to that settlement to be employed—that he was treated very rigorously, and in all respects as one of the worst convicts, except in so far as he was not compelled to labour in the gangs or wear the convict dress—that he was not permitted to hold intercourse with any one—that he was restricted to the convict allowance of food, and, though he had money, was not permitted to purchase anything beyond it.] Now, he wished to draw the attention of the Government to what would be the probable effect on the mind and health of a man like Mr. S. O'Brien of being kept separate, and necessarily so, from the other convicts; and also, of being debarred from all intercourse with the officers in charge, or any other person. If the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would undertake to inquire into the matter, with the view of causing some relaxation to be made in the rules in this respect, in Mr. S. O'Brien's favour, he would give very great satisfaction to his (Mr. Monsell's) mind, as well as to the minds of many other people connected with Ireland.

said, he must complain of the attempts to cast discredit on the statement he had made on a former occasion in reference to his brother, which had been made in a letter published in the Times, signed with the name of "Shaw," which, he alleged,. conveyed by no means a fair statement of the facts of the case. The whole of the statement he (Sir L. O'Brien) had made had been, fully confirmed by a letter addressed by his brother to Mr. Butt, the Queen's Counsel. He would not read that letter, as it would occupy too much time, but would merely say that it confirmed every word that he had stated. He would only add, that if the suggestions thrown out by his hon. Friend the Member for Limerick county were acted upon, it would give great satisfaction in Ireland, and he believed in that House. All he asked was, that his brother should be treated with some consideration in the unfortunate position in which he stood.

could assure the hon. Baronet and the House that the Governor of Van Diemen's Land was actuated by no other feeling than a desire to discharge his duty in as exemplary a manner as possible, as well to the prisoner in his charge as to the Crown. Since the date of the letter referred to by the hon. Member for Limerick county, certain modifications had been made in the treatment of Mr. S. O'Brien, which were intended to mitigate the asperity of his position. If Mr. S. O'Brien, had been subjected to solitary confinement, he had only himself to blame for it. Having refused the ticket of leave which was offered to him, there was but one of two alternatives open to him, either to mix in the contaminating society of the other convicts, which of course he could not do, or to lead a life of isolation. It was not true that he had been treated with harshness—on the contrary, greater indulgence had been extended to him than was usually awarded to persons similarly circumstanced. For this the Governor was perhaps open to censure. If it should appear that the treatment to which he was at present subjected, was injurious to his health, a representation to that effect would, no doubt, be made to the Governor, who would make every reasonable relaxation in his favour. The Governor had acted throughout under a strong sense of duty; and most assuredly there was no charge to which he was less liable than that of having treated Mr. S. O'Brien with unnecessary harshness.

hoped that the Government would treat this unfortunate gentleman with as much indulgence as they could feel to be consistent with their duty. He hoped that they would not allow a man by an unfortunate perversity of temper to place himself in a worse position than it was even in the contemplation of the law that he should occupy. His sentence most assuredly did not contemplate that he should be condemned to solitary confinement. He did not mean to justify the conduct of Mr. S. O'Brien: on the contrary, he strongly disapproved of it, and greatly deplored it; but he had long enjoyed that gentleman's friendship, and now in the days of his adversity he would not hesitate to speak of him as his friend. In his case, reason was now on the side of justice, and he sincerely hoped that the Government would treat him with as much consideration as might appear to them to be consistent with justice.

admitted that it was incumbent on the Government, after Mr. S. O'Brien had been so foolish as to refuse the ticket of leave, to take effective measures to prevent his escape; but he hoped that they would not pursue in his case, a course more severe than the circumstances of the case might appear to warrant. It was not merely in the south of Ireland that the character of Mr. S. O'Brien was regarded with feelings of respect and admiration. In the north there was a general feeling of disapproval of the infatuated courses to which he had committed himself; but with that feeling was combined a sentiment of the tenderest compassion for his unhappy fate, and a feeling of cordial esteem for the many noble qualities which adorned him. Nothing could afford greater gratification to the people of Ireland than to learn that he was treated with merciful consideration.

explained. He had not called upon the Government to procure a free pardon for Mr. S. O'Brien. What he had said was, that it would be an act of mercy and of good policy to grant that gentleman a conditional pardon, which, though it might not permit him to return to his native land, would give him the privilege of visiting other countries. With respect to the opening of his correspondence, he had asked no special exception in favour of Mr. S. O'Brien. What he had stated was, that to his own knowledge, an Order of Council had been some years ago agreed to, directing that the letters of convicts should not be opened, except under such circumstances as would justify the opening of the letters of a free man; and what he demanded was, that this salutary regulation should not be departed from to the prejudice of Mr. S. O'Brien.

took the same view of the question as the hon. Member for Montrose, and thought that the practice of opening letters directed by convicts to Members of Parliament was highly reprehensible. Persons in the unfortunate position of Mr. S. O'Brien had no other means of making known to the public the grievances to which they might be subjected than by communicating with Members of that House, and they ought certainly to be allowed to do so without restraint.

said, he was sure he should not be suspected of any unfriendly feeling towards Irishmen, either in general or in particular. But the case of Mr. S. O'Brien appeared to him to be like that of an officer who refused to give his parole. He might have his reasons for such refusal; but the world at large would not go with him when he complained of the consequences. If he could see the smallest reason to believe that the Government desired to press hardly or inconsiderately upon Mr. S. O'Brien, he was sure there was nothing he would not do to signify his condemnation of it; but he could not see any. On the contrary, he was anxious to congratulate the present Government, on having broken through the great bar to the abolition of capital punishment, which existed in the doctrine that it was impossible to dispense with it in political cases.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 45; Noes 17: Majority 28.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

moved the resolution of which he had given notice, and which was to the following effect:—

"That a statement be made on the part of the Government, on going into the Education Estimates (as is done on going into the estimates for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance) of the sums appropriated each year to the purposes of education; the attribution of those sums; the relative increase of common schools of all sorts receiving grants from Government; the number and progress of schools of design; and of all educational institutions (including public libraries, and museums of galleries of art and science) for which money is voted by Parliament."

In all other countries it was customary for one of the Ministers to make a statement at least once every year, explanatory of the state of education and its probable prospects; and he had long thought that the custom was one which might be adopted with great advantage in this country. Several years ago he had made a suggestion in that House; and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose absence they all so deeply deplored, being then in office, admitted the justice of his (Mr. Ewart's) views, and promised to make some such explanation himself, at some convenient period of each Session. Last Session a statement of this nature was made by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department; but it was not at all as comprehensive as it ought to have been, for it only had reference to the grants for sites for schools. What he (Mr. Ewart) wished was, not a mere statement respecting the grants appropriated by the Committee of Council, but a statement that should present a complete view of the present condition and future prospects of education all over the country, including all sorts of institutions. The details respecting the present vote, for instance—public education in Great Britain—would be of great importance to the public, as would also the details respecting public education in Ireland. Then there was the vote respecting schools of design—also a most important subject. He regretted, in passing, that those schools had not been carried out according to the original design of the Committee with whom they originated, and of which he had the honour to be chairman. He regretted more particularly that the central school in London had not been made a normal school for teachers, instead of a school for pupils. He rejoiced, however, to see that schools of design had been established all over the country, and that some attention was now being paid to the instruction of females in them. Of the vote now under consideration he would only say, that it seemed a very scanty one to satisfy so important a requirement as that of education for the people of this country. He admitted that the intelligence from Ireland was of a more satisfactory character; for it appeared that the number of children that were receiving education under the national system in that country ranged between 400,000 and 500,000. Some information respecting the progress of these schools would be highly acceptable both to the House and to the public; and he hoped that his right hon. Friend at the head of the Board of Trade would enlighten them on the subject. He found that, under the head of expediture in aid of education, there were a variety of items: such, for instance, as grants to professors of Cambridge and Oxford, the Royal Irish Academy, the Dublin Society, and the British Museum. On these subjects it was but natural to suppose that the public should feel very great interest. It was exceedingly desirable that some Minister of the Crown should annually deliver a statement in which allusions and explanations respecting these national institutions might be consolidated. The National Gallery, too, was an institution in respect of which the public felt very considerable interest; but the information that was supplied to them respecting its present position, and the changes that were in contemplation, was exceedingly inadequate. It was no answer to his Motion to say that all requisite information might be found in the blue books; because those volumes, it was well known, were only accessible to a few, and their ponderous proportions made them formidable to all. If they wanted to hide a thing from the public, the surest way to do it would be to put it in a blue book; for, once entombed there, the chances of resurrection were very trifling. A vivâ voce statement by a Minister of the Crown would convey the information in a manner much more attractive and popular than any elaborate explanation to be found in a blue book.

admitted the great importance of the question to which the hon. Member for Dumfries had called the attention of the House; but he apprehended that it would be difficult for any one Minister to make a general statement of the kind referred to, respecting all the different points mentioned in the Motion, because the fact was that they came under the cognisance of different departments of Government. To do what the hon. Gentleman desired, would be very much as if the separate statements now made respecting the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, were to be made at once by one of the three heads of these departments. With respect to the present vote—public education in Great Britain—he was ready to afford the hon. Gentleman every information vivâ voce which he could require of him. The hon. Gentleman had anticipated one answer which he was prepared to give him, and that was that the fullest and most detailed information was already to be had respecting the appropriation of the grants on education in the reports which were annually laid upon the table of the House under the name of "the Minutes of the Committee of Council on Education," which, he begged to observe, were not given in the antiquated form of a folio, but in the more convenient form of a readable octavo. With respect to the School of Design and some of the other items mentioned in the Motion, they came under the cognisance of his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who, he was sure, would willingly give the hon. Member all the information he required. He begged also to remind his hon. Friend, that with respect to the present vote, there was much more information given than was usual in the estimate itself. The items of the estimated appropriation for the year would be found stated under 13 heads. The total of these amounted to 151,300 l. The 125,000 l. now proposed, together with the balance remaining unappropriated upon the grants of former years, would be sufficient to meet that expenditure. The Minutes of Council on the table contained detailed explanations of the appropriation of the grants made by Parliament for the purpose of education in Great Britain, not for the last financial year precisely, but, what was practically the same thing, for the year from the 1st of January, 1848, to the 31st of December, 1849. Under the first head of "Statement of Grants awarded by Committee of Council on Education towards the erection or improvement of school buildings," he found that the number of schools so erected or improved was no less than 627, the number of children accom- modated 97,307; the total sum awarded 106,863 l.; paid out of sums awarded 41,257 l.; and not yet claimed, 65,605 l. The second item was a "Statement of Grants awarded, on recommendations of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools, towards expense of new fittings or supply of school apparatus; and also of grants in aid of purchase of school books and maps at reduced prices." The number of schools which had received the grants was 1,047, and the total amount was 5,534 l. The third item was a "Statement of annual Grants conditionally payable by Committee of Council on Education in the year ending the 31st of October, 1850, to pupil teachers and stipendiary monitors (with their names and date and current year of their apprenticeships); as also in augmentation of salaries of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses." The number of schools which had received the grant was 1,361, the number of certificated teachers 681, the number of apprentices 3,581 — namely, 2,424 boys, and 1,157 girls; and the amount conditionally awarded for the year ending the 31st of October, 1850, 68,111 l. He believed that those grants would be found to have imparted a great stimulus to the pupils, and to have contributed effectually to raise the standard of education in the country. The fourth item to which he would refer was "Statement of Grants awarded to training schools on account of students holding certificates of merit, who have been trained during the year 1849," and he found that the total amount of those grants was 2,373 l. 10 s. 10 d. He would not refer to other items, because they sufficiently explained themselves. It would, indeed, be impossible to go over the whole subject in detail without reading copious extracts from "the minutes" on the table, and after all they would afford but a very partial view of the appropriation of the grants.

cordially supported the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries, believing that it would materially tend to promote the object which the House had in view, namely, the extension of education. He could not help thinking that the practice which had obtained in France on the subject, was a good one. For several years he received copies of the reports which were made to the French Chamber by M. Guizot, he believed, giving a complete view of all the branches of education in France. He (Mr. Hume) wished to see the appointment of a Minister of Education in this country, whose duty it would be to bring the subject annually before that or the other House of Parliament. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that "the Minutes of the Committee of Council on Education" were often valuable; he only wished they were more generally read. He felt assured that if the opinions of Mr. Moseley and others were read with the attention they deserved, they would do much to remove the prejudices which, he regretted to say, so extensively prevailed upon the subject of national education. He regretted that Parliament had rejected the means by which alone, in his opinion, the mass of the community could ever be educated, on the plea that some particular dogmas and tenets must be inculcated along with the other branches of education. That, in his opinion, was a great mistake. He begged to suggest to the Government that it would be a great improvement if they would, in imitation of the Prussian system, give a greater prominence to geography in the national, schools than at present obtained, especially if they would provide the schools with maps and statistical information respecting every possession of the British empire. If they did so, they would at once promote a most useful branch of information, and facilitate the progress of emigration. He also hoped that great care would be taken in the selection of proper inspectors.

was convinced that the system of education had not kept pace with the population. If they looked to the statistics of crime, they would find that no provision had been made to make the progress of education co-existent with the increase of population. He hoped and trusted that the Government would endeavour to bring forth some plan of education which would be more effective and more palatable to the majority of the House. He would venture to suggest that it would be politic and judicious to bring forward an enabling statute to allow parishes to rate themselves for the purposes of education. He believed if this was done, many persons would be willing to rate themselves with the view of educating their fellow creatures in those districts where it was most needed. The grants by Government were now given in proportion to the aid which was given by districts; but the system was open to this objection, that in the poorest and most destitute districts, where the rich did not advance any funds, the education of the people was altogether neglected. The subject was one of such immense importance that he hoped the Government would not lose sight of it.

observed that, in the last criminal tables which had been printed by order of the House, there was an omission not usual in the tables, of the educational attainments of the offenders. He hoped this omission would be repaired for the future, as it was very essential to have full information in this respect. He quite agreed in thinking that the Minutes of Education were drawn up with great ability; but they omitted to state the numbers of children who were educated in public schools in England and in Wales. He concided in the opinion of the hon. Member for Montrose, that there ought to be a Minister of Education, who could deal with the subject of schools as a general combination. The institutions of a literary character—such as public libraries, museums, &c.—could also be made a subject of notice by a Minister whose duty it would be to attend to them alone. Representations had been repeatedly made to him that numbers of young men were precluded from attending the library of the British Museum, in consequence of the inconvenient hours at which the room was kept open. The subject of public libraries and museums was one which deserved the attentive consideration of the Government; and he hoped they would not fail to include it in any arrangements that might be made for the future.

said, he had not been aware that the criminal returns of this year were at all different from those of preceding years. He would make an inquiry on the subject indicated by the hon. Member.

Vote agreed to.

wished to know why 21 inspectors of education in England received 16,000 l. for their salaries and travelling expenses, when the four head inspectors of education in Ireland only received 250 l. per annum each, and 12 s. 6 d. per diem for hotel expenses, or, together, 1,685 l. Unless the qualifications were very much lower on the one side of the Channel than on the other, it was clear that either one set of gentlemen were overpaid, or the other underpaid.

said, that the duties of the Irish inspectors were much less onerous and occupied much less time than those of the English inspectors.

did not see how that could be, since the calculation of hotel expenditure for the Irish inspectors on inspection duties was put at nine months in the year.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) 14,755 l. School of Design and for aid to Provincial Schools.

would be glad if the Government would give some details with respect to this item.

said, that full information on the subject was afforded in Mr. Northcote's letter appended to the estimate. The increase in this year's estimate, amounting to nearly 5,000 l., was occasioned, in the first place, by the large allowance for the outfit fund, it having been found that Government could not more effectually aid the provincial schools of design than by providing them amply with good casts and models. Another feature in the increase which he thought would meet with the full sanction of the House, was the extension to Ireland of that Government aid to schools of design which had operated so beneficially in England and Scotland. The corporations and communities of the principal towns in Ireland, especially those of Dublin, Cork, and Belfast, had exhibited the utmost readiness to promote these schools in their particular localities by liberal subscriptions; and the Government had therefore felt themselves not only justified, but called upon, to propose the grant set forth in this estimate.

had always understood that the principle upon which grants were to be made for this purpose to localities was, that the localities themselves should contribute their quota. Now, he found that Birmingham, for example, to the school of design, of which 600 l. was proposed to be granted, contributed nothing; that Nottingham, to which 400 l. was to be given, only subscribed 201 l. He found in the Treasury Minute appended to this estimate the following passage:—

"My Lords observe, that in the report of the Committee of the House of Commons it is stated as their opinion, 'that the principle originally adopted on the recommendation of the Committee of Arts and Manufactures, of making the Government grant depend on the voluntary subscriptions to the branch schools, was a sound one, and ought to be maintained.' My Lords fear that this recommendation has not been in practice strictly adhered to. They, however, desire to express their entire concurrence in the principle so laid down, and they trust that the Committee of Privy Council for Trade will, in all future grants of public money to these schools, give effect as far as possible to this recommendation."

He wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman concurred in the proposition so laid down?

entirely concurred in the proposition, and at all times did his utmost to have it carried into effect. With reference to Birmingham, he could explain that a handsome subscription had, in fact, been made there to meet the Government grant, but the amount was not known at the Treasury at the time the estimate was prepared.

said, he must complain of the manner in which Newcastle had been treated in the distribution of funds. In consequence of the grant having been discontinued in 1848, he made inquiries into the state of the school, and found that it was supported entirely by local subscriptions, that great interest was taken in it by the leading inhabitants of the town, and that the scholars attended regularly, and exhibited great proficiency. Though the town was not quite so populous as Manchester or Birmingham, yet the state of art in Newcastle was very high. As a proof of this, all the painted glass in the beautiful church within a few yards of that House, raised by the munificence of a lady, was contributed by Mr. Wailes, of Newcastle, who considered the School of Design highly important for the education of those who practised his art. Under these circumstances, he thought that the sum of 150 l. now granted was far too small in comparison with the sum given to other towns with very inferior claims.

wished to know if it was proposed to continue to receive pupils in the Metropolitan School of Design? He had understood that school to be intended only for persons who were to be engaged as masters.

said, it was not intended to make the London school exclusively a normal school. In a place like London, where so many beautiful and ingenious manufactures were carried on, it would be most inexpedient to debar students from the benefits of such a school.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) 2,006 l. Professors of Oxford and Cambridge.

regretted that they had not at these universities a professor of history in connexion with diplomacy. In the time of George I., the professors of modern history at Cambridge and Oxford were intended to promote a knowledge of history in connexion with the provisions of treaties; and some of the best diplomatists of this country owed their celebrity to the information which they received under these professors. In the German and other universities on the Continent, diplomacy was made a branch of study; but no instruction whatever was afforded in this important branch in any of our English universities; the consequence was that the younger branches of the aristocracy entered life perfectly ignorant upon the subject, without knowing, perhaps, even the nature of the Treaty of Utrecht or of Westphalia. Without wishing to see any special degrees given for proficiency in this study, he still thought that a certificate given to persons who might have passed with proficiency through a course of modern history in connexion with this subject, would be of great service, and, at all events, would assist the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office in the selection of fit and proper persons to be appointed as attachés in foreign countries.

concurred in the suggestion of the hon. Member, and hoped that it would not be long before the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office would be prepared to lay down a rule that no attaché should be appointed who had not passed through a certain examination.

thought that if the professors of these universities were paid by the nation, it was hardly right that the benefit of their lectures should be confined to the higher ranks of society, and still less that they should be exclusively confined to those among the higher ranks who entertained particular theological opinions.

said, that the hon. Member for Dumfries appeared to have fallen into error as to the fact of diplomacy being taught in the German universities. He (Mr. C. Lewis) believed that there were lectures delivered in some of these universities upon what was called, not "diplomacy," but "diplomatics," for the purpose of instruction in "diplomas" or ancient deeds—antiquarian palæography in fact—and there was no doubt that in the course of lectures delivered there would be some upon the law of nations, in the same manner as lectures upon the same subject would be delivered in the English universities by the professors of law and jurisprudence.

stated, that he was perfectly aware of the difference which existed between diplomatics and diplomacy, and the hon. Member was in error in supposing that the latter was not taught at the universities to which he had referred.

said, that it must not be forgotten, that although this grant was made by the public, a very heavy tax was imposed in return on degrees—a tax which was in every way unworthy of the state of opinion in that House with respect to education. It was a most unjust and burdensome tax, which, after all, yielded but an insignificant sum to the Exchequer; and he was satisfied that the universities would gladly provide the funds required for the payment of their professors if this tax was given up. With regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Dumfries, if he referred to the importance of an acquaintance with treaties, and a general knowledge of the law of nations, he agreed that it would be most desirable that this branch of study should be carefully attended to by a particular class of students in the universities. He ventured to hope that the alterations which had recently been made in the course of study at Oxford, must necessarily lead to the study of these subjects. He did not believe that many students would direct their attention to them; but he had no doubt that a certain class of young men, to whom it was most important that their minds should be engaged with those subjects, would be led to turn their attention to them. With regard to the libraries at the universities, he quite agreed with those hon. Members who had spoken in thinking that the immense stores of learning accumulated there should be thrown open to the students generally, and he believed that nothing but the expression of a general desire to that effect was wanting to induce the authorities to comply with the wish.

said, modern history and the law of nations were at present made distinct branches of study in the University of Cambridge. In reply to the observations of the hon. Member for Oldham, he would say that the lectures in that university were open to the public. With respect to the appointment of a professor of diplomacy, he did not think that was at present required at Cambridge, as there were two eminent professors there, whose lectures included all the instruction which the hon. Gentleman desired in that respect.

hoped the first instructions given to students in diplomacy would be to speak the truth. One of the best ambassadors this country ever had was a man who had learned that lesson, and by his undeviating adherence to truth the other nations were completely deceived by him.

said, if the withdrawing of the duty on degrees would meet the expenses of the professorships, he thought it would be most desirable to get rid of them, and effect thereby an arrangement that would be more satisfactory to all parties. He thought it highly objectionable that the votes for the different universities and academies should be included in the estimates, and discussed in that House every year.

hoped that some arrangement would be made by the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department by which those agents who were in future to represent this country abroad would not exhibit so great an ignorance of the first principles of diplomacy as had been too often witnessed.

said, some such arrangement had been for some time in contemplation; and he hoped to be able to have an examination instituted for those who were about to enter on their first mission.

said, in almost every foreign country they had a department of public law, and he might instance particularly Russia, in which it was necessary to obtain some proficiency before the lowest diplomatic post would be conferred on any candidate. All the Government officials were in that way conversant with matters of which their diplomatic agents were profoundly ignorant, thanks to the education the younger sons of the aristocracy received at their universities.

said, he must defend the course of education pursued at their universities, for it was only necessary to look for a moment at the long life of distinguished men, both at home and abroad, who had graduated at these universities, to prove that they possessed attainments of the very highest description. He must complain also of the utter neglect of the Government in conferring appointments upon men who had passed through their university career with the greatest honour: it was very different to the manner in which the Governments abroad conferred their most important diplomatic appointments upon those who had distinguished themselves in the foreign universities.

admitted that the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge did bring forth men of great and distinguished talent; but he could not concur with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading in the opinion that they had any right to complain of any undue neglect on the part of the Government of this country. He denied that men of eminent literary attainments were deprived of due opportunity of advancement. He might, with great propriety, refer as an illustrious proof of this to one individual for whose recent calamity every one who heard him must feel the deepest regret. He, when a young man of 21, was at once put into high office, and why? Because he had become a double first-class man in the University of Oxford. It was not fair, therefore, to charge the Government of the country with neglecting men of talent who were connected with our universities. At the same time he must observe, that if the selection were made exclusively from seats of learning, it would be establishing a principle of centralisation, which he was happy to believe was contrary to the habits of the people of this country.

Vote agreed to; as was—

(5.) 3,967 l., University of London.

(6.) 7,480 l., Universities, &c. Scotland.

said, that access was not afforded to the public to the libraries connected with the universities in Scotland. Several years ago, eleven universities had a right to demand copies of works from authors and publishers. This was considered a great grievance, and a Bill was passed which reduced the number of university libraries which had a right to demand copies to five. In consequence of this the country made a compensation to those six universities who were no longer allowed to demand copies. The inhabitants of the towns in Scotland were of opinion that they were entitled to have access to those libraries, as an equivalent for the sum so paid. He thought there was reason in the claim. In France and Italy all the university libraries were open to the people of the towns in which the universities were situated.

considered that when the public contributed money to the libraries, they ought to be available to the inhabitants generally.

hoped the House would be satisfied with the assurance that the attention of the Government had been al- ready turned to this subject with a view to do what would be right in the matter. At the same time, the House must be aware that the Government possessed very little control over the libraries of the universities. The library of the University of Edinburgh was for the exclusive use of the students there.

Vote agreed to; as were also—

(7.) 300 l. Royal Irish Academy. (8.) 300 l. Royal Hibernian Academy. (9.) 6,500 l. Royal Dublin Society.

(10.) 4,100 l. Theological Professors, Belfast.

asked why there was an increase in the present year of 500 l. in the last vote, and of 1,000 l. in the vote now proposed?

replied that the 500 l. additional voted for the Royal Dublin Society was for the purpose of completing the conservatories in the botanic garden belonging to it, and for fitting heating apparatus in them. The additional 1,000 l. for the Belfast institution was occasioned by the retiring allowances made to five professors, and to gratuities to three others. Of course the latter charge would not appear in future years. The reason of this charge was because the Parliamentary grant to the professors of the Belfast institution ceased on the opening of Queen's College in that place.

wished to know why these five professors were not appointed to Queen's College?

said, that all the former professors that could be appointed to Queen's College, had been named. It was thought only just that some retiring allowance should be made to the remainder.

Vote agreed to.

(11.) 38,569 l. British Museum New Buildings.

hoped that some improvements would be made in the reading-room of the British Museum, for every one who had recently visited it must be aware that the accommodation in it was far too small. In addition, any one who visited that apartment at this time of the year, would find it impossible to pursue any studies in a satisfactory manner in it. He would not then go into the question of the catalogue; but he wished to know whether any sum was to be devoted to the arranging and cataloguing modern books, for they had been allowed to accumulate to an enormous excess.

expressed a wish that the discussion on this subject should be postponed until the regular vote for the British Museum came before the House. The present vote only referred to the new building.

considered that he was perfectly right in bringing this subject forward on the present occasion, as what he had stated showed a want of room in the building. That was also the excuse made for the modern books in the Museum not having been registered and catalogued. Those who visited the reading-room could not get any book which had been published within the last three years. If any of the attendants were asked why such books could not be procured, the reply was, that there was no room in the establishment for placing them in a situation to suit the public convenience. He wished to know whether it was intended to appropriate any portion of the new wings to the reception of new works?

said, it would be much more convenient if the hon. Gentleman would allow the invariable practice to be pursued in regard to this vote. His right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth, whose absence he most deeply regretted, but who, he hoped, would be able in a few days to be again present with them, was in the habit of annually bringing forward this vote, and of entering into a systematic and detailed explanation of all that related to the management of the British Museum. There being no hon. Member present who was connected with the British Museum — [ Here the right hon. Gentleman had his attention directed to the presence of Sir R. Inglis. ] He did not observe his hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford; but still he thought a fitter occasion would occur for this discussion, when he trusted, after a few days, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth would be able to make his usual statement to the House.

considered that the discussion was properly raised on this vote, for one of the items in it was for building a new room at the north-east angle of the Museum, with a staircase up to the printed book department for the reception and registration of books.

thought that he could give a satisfactory explanation. Instead of the books being registered in the secre- tary's office, as was formerly the case, that duty was transferred to the printed boots department, and some delay was occasioned in the first instance. That duty was to be performed under the superintendence of M. Panizzi; and it was certainly much better that the register should be placed under his control, than any other officer of the Museum. With regard to the reading-room, certain arrangements are in the course of being made since the report of the commissioners, with the view of giving the public more accommodation in that place than they have hitherto enjoyed. It had been clearly shown, in the evidence given before the commissioners, that in no reading-room connected with any public library in the world was there so much accommodation afforded, and where so many books were allowed to a reader at one time, as was the case in the reading-room of the British Museum. Indeed, there was no place in which so many advantages were given to the common reader.

felt, after the able explanation just given, that it was unnecessary for him to say more than a few words. When Her Majesty's Government a few years ago proposed to grant 10.000 l. a year to supply the hiatus which existed in the department of printed books in the British Museum, it was not considered that there would be such an accumulation as would require additional buildings. The trustees had represented this to Her Majesty's Government, and he trusted that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not turn a deaf ear to the application, and that a grant would be made for this purpose, as well as for affording better accommodation in the reading-room. At present there was accommodation for only 250 persons in the reading-room.

had often applied in the reading-room of the Museum for very common books without success. He would strongly urge upon the Committee the propriety of insisting that a new common finding catalogue should be at once prepared.

said, that although there might be more accommodation in the British Museum than there was in foreign public libraries, still there was not one-half of what the public had a right to expect. He perfectly agreed with the suggestion of the hon. Baronet who spoke last as to the preparation of a catalogue. It was well known that M. Panizzi had been proceeding for years with a catalogue, which, at the rate it had hitherto advanced, might possibly be finished about the year 1895. He wished to know whether any determination had been come to as to printing the Appendix to the Report of the Commissioners? There was much anxiety on this point, and the cost of printing it would be comparatively little, as the chief expense had already been incurred by setting the types.

believed about 100 copies of the Appendix to the Report had been printed, and any hon. Member wishing to have a copy could obtain it by making application.

said, that the task of forming an adequate catalogue of such a library as that in the British Museum, was of a much more serious nature than hon. Gentlemen seemed to think. The task was one of the greatest difficulty, and required the most unwearied attention. No man could have exerted himself with more unremitting labour in proceeding with the catalogue than his estimable friend, Mr. Panizzi; and the British public were deeply indebted to that gentleman for the manner in which he had conducted the department under his superintendence.

said, the trustees of the Museum were most anxious to have the best catalogue of the Museum library that they could have within a given period.

said, that Mr. Panizzi was a man of the very highest attainments, and no man could discharge the duties of his office more effectively than that gentleman did. He thought it right to say thus much, as the name of that gentleman had been most improperly used on other occasions as to things in the Museum with which he had nothing to do. He (Sir D. Dundas) admitted they might have a new-finding catalogue, similar to that of Sir H. Ellis, in a comparatively short time; but the object was to obtain as complete a publication as possible. They wished to have the work well done, so that it would live in all ages; and when they looked to the extent of the library of the British Museum, no reasonable man could expect that it could be completed in a short time.

thought the suggestion which he had made was of so great importance that he wished to elicit from the House some expression of opinion that steps should be taken as soon as possible for the formation of a common finding catalogue.

believed Mr. Panizzi to be a clever man, but still there was great ground of complaint with respect to the printed book department. There were at present 40,000 books which had been published within the last three years in the Museum, which were not catalogued, and therefore were not accessible to the public. The difficulty of forming a common catalogue was greatly exaggerated. Every mercantile man knew that at Lloyd's it often happened that five hundred ships arrived in one day, and three clerks regularly registered them. He believed, if five additional clerks, with salaries of from 70 l. to 80 l. a year, were engaged for the purpose at the Museum, that the task would be readily and effectively executed. Those five clerks would catalogue 250 a day, which would give 1,500 a week, 6,000 a month, and 72,000 a year.

wished to know whether any steps had been taken with the view of opening the library of the Museum in the evening? There were large classes who could only attend at that period of the day.

said, the matter was under consideration. It must be obvious, however, that some risk of accidents from fire would be incurred.

said, that M. Guizot, in his evidence before the British Museum Commissioners, stated that the libraries at Paris of St. Genevieve—those at Amiens, and Rouen, were open in the evenings. The system of lighting buildings in England was more advanced than that on the Continent, and he conceived the Museum library could be opened after dark without incurring the least risk.

vindicated the conduct of the trustees in imposing salutary restrictions on the privileges of admission. There was no respectable person who could not get in. The Library at St. Genevieve, to which allusion had been made by the hon. Member for Dumfries as a model institution, was the scene of the most scandalous excesses, because no such restrictions were imposed as were adopted in the British Museum, and the mob had access at all hours.

explained. He had not held up the library in question as a model institution. He had merely instanced it as an institution which was lighted at night without injury to the books.

complained of the restrictions existing upon the admission of persons to the library of the Museum. He himself had once applied as a Master of Arts of Cambridge University and a member of Lincoln's Inn for a ticket of admission, and in reply was refused the ticket, but referred to a list of persons with which he was furnished. That was one instance, and doubtless there were hundreds of other similar ones. Unless the reading-room were too small to contain the applicants, such restrictions were impolitic, and unworthy the liberal character of the institution.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) 3,050 l. British Museum Purchases.

hoped that Government would make no purchases until all the other purchases were properly arranged. He did not object to Layard's collection; but various collections were not yet classed and properly arranged.

said, that the Government of France had prepared an expedition the moment the discoveries had been made in Mesopotamia. We had suffered the great discoveries of Layard to remain on the strand at Bussorah till they sunk in the mud, and after all they were to be removed by freighting a small merchantman. The example of France might usefully be adopted by the Government.

said, that the collection of coins and other antiquities which had been recently purchased, had been offered at a price so exceedingly reasonable that the Government had thought it right to procure them at once, lest so favourable an opportunity might not again occur. The coins were in the most beautiful order, and were the most curious collection in the empire.

Vote agreed to.

(13.) 1,500 l., National Gallery.

said, that during his visits to the National Gallery lately, he had observed that the rooms were not un-frequently crowded by idle persons, who brought children there with them, cracked nuts, and wore jackets which smelt of smoke and dirt. These persons stretched themselves luxuriously on the benches, and seemed to have gone in there merely for the purpose of sheltering themselves from the excessive heat of the sun. Now, he did not wish to make a grievance of this; he was always delighted to see the humbler classes in such places; but he certainly did think that an evil resulted from the indis- criminate and unrestricted admission at all seasons of such persons as those to whom he had alluded. Ladies and gentlemen, and persons who were capable of appreciating the valuable and interesting pictures, were excluded in consequence of the continual presence of such individuals. He would not propose that the gallery should be less frequently open in the week than it was at present. He would still have it open four days in the week; but he certainly thought that it would be very judicious to make arrangements that upon one day, and upon one day only, there should be a charge of 6 d. for admission, in order to afford ladies an opportunity for visiting the gallery.

Vote agreed to.

(14.) 19,000 l., Geological Survey and Museum of Practical Geology.

(15.) 2,696 l., Scientific Works and Experiments.

(16.) 4,049 l. Bermudas.

10,000 l. was then proposed towards defraying the expense of erecting on the Earthen Mound, in the city of Edinburgh, buildings for a national gallery and other purposes connected therewith, and with the promotion of fine arts in Scotland.

said, that he had been in Edinburgh on several occasions, and he doubted, from the appearance of the city, whether it was at all necessary that the public funds should be voted for this purpose. Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham, might make far greater claims for a vote of this nature. There was no city in which there were so many public monuments in every street; there were statues of warriors and poets. If the people considered objects of this nature so necessary, they could subscribe for them. Something might be said for the public buildings in this metropolis, which were the property of the whole kingdom, and to which the whole kingdom had direct access, but he took the present to be a proposition to vote 25,000 l. to individual societies.

considered that the vote had been produced in a very loose manner. 10,000 l. was proposed to be voted in the present Session, leaving 15,000 l. to be provided in future years, and it was not stated what proportion, was to be contributed by Edinburgh.

understood this to be a building for a national gallery for the public exhibition of works in the fine arts, and also a school for the fine arts, which was now inadequately provided for. He had not seen the plans, but he understood they were not more than were sufficient for the metropolis. There was a rising school of the fine arts in Edinburgh, and the artists had shown considerable talent.

was afraid that the vision of the hon. Member for Montrose was somewhat hazy when he looked back on the other side of the Tweed. After what had been said by the right hon. Member for Northampton, this was a vote which came so completely by surprise, that he had expected that the hon. Member for Montrose would have moved that it should be negatived, and he should have given him his support. He thought at least that they ought to have the vote postponed until they had the correspondence, and therefore he moved that the vote be postponed.

said, that the school in Scotland had produced Wilkie and other artists. The whole expense would be 40,000 l.

did not think the explanation was at all satisfactory, because 25,000 l. was to be given out of the public funds. There were exhibitions in Manchester, but he was not aware that in any case they had come to Parliament for a vote. There could be no justice in giving to the city of Edinburgh a sum of 25,000 l. for an object in which the rest of the country had no interest. The House was voting entirely in the dark; the note appended to the vote gave no information whatever. This money might be applied to half a dozen objects over which the House had no control whatever.

thought it fair that some distinction should be made in favour of London, Edinburgh, and Dublin, in preference to other towns.

thought that in dealing with the public money they should be just before being generous.

considered that the Scotch artists were, in every way, worthy of consideration and patronage, and he therefore hoped the vote would be passed.

should protest against the vote, unless the plan and correspondence were laid on the table, otherwise he should divide the House.

said, he would withdraw the vote at present.

Vote withdrawn.

Vote agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

House resumed.

House adjourned at half-after Twelve o'clock.