said, he wished to put a question to the First Lord of the Admiralty with regard to the reported loss of Her Majesty's ship Nerbudda, off the coast of Africa, in June last. He had been told by the relatives of officers who were on board that ship, that the first information they had received of the disaster was contained in The Times of August last, and that no official report had been issued from the Admiralty either to the public, or to those more immediately interested. Great surprise and great pain had been caused by the absence of any official information as to the loss of a ship containing 180 souls, and he therefore requested the right hon. Baronet to state whatever details had reached him the subject.

said, he was very sorry to say, that all the accounts he had received were of a completely negative character. The only information in the possession of the Government was, that the Nerbudda had been sent to the eastern coast of Africa, and had never since been heard of; but of course the Admiralty would not be justified in making any public statement on the subject until the last chance was gone. He could not, however, entertain the slightest hope that the Nerbudda had not foundered at sea. The Admiralty knew that she had not gone into any port of Madagascar, and, in fact, the only information they possessed was, that there was an absence of all information.

said, he begged to ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, whether any and what steps since the issuing of the Minute of the 10th of October, 1855, had been taken by the Government to facilitate and improve the postal and passenger communication between London and Dublin? Whether the hours of departure from and arrival at these cities respectively of the mails, and the time to be employed on the journey, had been decided on; whether any tenders for the performance of this service had been called for by the Government; whether any tenders for this service had been sent in to the Government; and what was the present state of the negotiations on this subject?

said, that some measures on the subject had been taken since the issuing of the Minute. He had received a deputation from the Chambers of Commerce of Dublin and Belfast, with a view of considering how far the hours it was intended to fix would be convenient with regard to Ireland. A form of tender was now being prepared according to the hours fixed on with the deputation, and when the tender was ready (which he hoped would be the case in a few days) it would be transmitted to in the railway companies.

said, he would beg to ask the right hon. President of the Poor Law Board, whether a Report had been presented to the Government on the state of the St. Pancras or St. Marylebone workhouses; and whether he would lay such Report on the table of the House?

, in reply, said, that in November last, one of the ordinary inspectors under the Poor Law Board had made a Report with regard to St. Pancras workhouse. In consequence of that Report, he had appointed a medical gentleman as a temporary inspector to inquire into the management of the establishment. He should state that the St. Pancras workhouse was under the direction of a local Board appointed by a local Act, and not under the immediate control of the Poor Law Board. He had lately received the Report of the medical inspector, which described the state of things in the workhouse to be horrible. He had directed the Report to be forwarded to the local authorities, and he hoped they would take steps to apply instant and urgent remedies to those evils.

said, he wished to know whether the Report would be laid on the table?

said, he should have no objection to do so.

said, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester. The Motion with regard to the oath of abjuration could not come on till a late hour, and he wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman intended to proceed with the discussion?

said, he had put his notice on the paper in the hope that the House might allow him to introduce the Bill without discussion. He could not reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman without putting another question to him, as to whether he would allow the Bill to be laid on the table, and fix the second reading for such a time as would give fair opportunity for discussion? He wished also to know from the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) whether the Government would have any objection to that course?

said, that on the part of Her Majesty's Government, he would not object to any course the House thought fit to adopt.

said, he considered the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman a very reasonable one. It was desirable they should see what the Bill was before they discussed it. He therefore would not oppose the Motion.

said, he hoped the Government would allow the House a few days more for the consideration of the Army Estimates, which had been placed upon the paper for that night. They were of peculiar importance; for they were different from former Estimates, and they had not been circulated many days.

said, although the Estimates were so far new in form that one body of papers contained what was formerly in different Estimates, yet each part was very nearly the same as it always had been, especially with regard to the Army Estimates. Money being required for the public service, the Government intended to take a Vote on account, and he therefore hoped the House would allow them to proceed with the Estimates.

said, notwithstanding the explanation of the noble Lord, he really must press for further delay.

said, he had stated on the first day of the Session the course which the Government intended to take. They proposed to lay on the table Estimates framed for the whole year, on the supposition that the war would continue, but, considering that negotiations were about to begin, they would, in the first place, only ask Parliament to vote a portion of those Estimates relating to matters not affected by peace or war. Those sums having been voted on account, they would be obliged, in case either of peace or war, to come to Parliament for the remainder of the Estimates, and hon. Gentlemen would then have a further opportunity of discussing them.

said, that there was a very important proposition for a certain number of men and animals for the Land Transport service, and probably the Government would allow the House a little time for the consideration of that matter.

said, he would take that opportunity of asking the noble Lord the Member for London, whether he had any objection to give some further explanation of the course he intended to take with respect to his Education Resolutions? He (Sir John Pakington) could not help thinking that the course which the noble Lord intimated last night he intended to take was unusual, and likely to be attended with some inconvenience. At the commencement of the Session, the noble Lord intimated that, in consequence of the difficulty which independent Members felt in proposing Bills, he thought the most convenient course for him to take would be to move Resolutions and call on the House to pronounce an opinion on them; and, when the noble Lord gave his notice yesterday, he (Sir J. Pakington) hoped the noble Lord was going to take that course. But the noble Lord mentioned that on Thursday week he would only make a statement, and not call on the House to pronounce any opinion. Now, that appeared to him to be an unusual course, and might have the effect of creating apprehension among those who took an interest in the subject that the matter would be again indefinitely postponed. All that he desired was, that the House should come to some sound conclusion on the subject, and he therefore wished to know whether the noble Lord had any understanding with the Government as to the further progress of his Resolutions, or in what way he proposed to call on the House to pronounce an opinion on them?

said, that the right hon. Gentleman had entirely misunderstood what he had stated on the previous evening. He certainly did not intend to state that he did not mean to ask for the opinion of the House on his Resolutions when the proper opportunity came, but that he did not mean to do so on the 6th of March, because, as there were several Resolutions, it would be hardly fair to ask the House to come immediately to a decision on the subject. But, after placing the Resolutions on the table of the House, and of course moving the first one as a matter of form, he should propose to postpone them till a future day. He certainly had no understanding with the Government as to the day when he should again bring them under consideration, but he recollected that, when the late Sir Robert Peel brought forward the Controverted Elections Bill, he (Lord J. Russell), being then in the Government, gave the right hon. Baronet a Government day for the purpose. If, happily, the negotiations to Paris should end in peace, no subject to which the House could turn its attention could be of greater importance than that of education, and be should then, not pressing the Government, of course, to give him a day while urgent business was coming on, which the affairs of the country might render it desirable to be immediately discussed, request the noble Lord at the head of the Government to consent that, at a certain time, those Resolutions should be taken into consideration—discussed from day to day until the House pronounced an opinion on the subject. He trusted that that course would be satisfactory to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whose wishes he should wish to consult, as he had taken so great an interest in the subject.

said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it was the intention of the Government to introduce any measure during the present Session calculated to place the lessees of Church property on a more just and equitable footing than that in which they were placed under the existing Acts of Parliament. The House was aware that in some parts of England, especially in Durham, a large quantity of land was held on these leases, which were always for twenty-one years, but they were invariably renewed every seven. Parliament had now interfered, and put a stop to any further renewals, but gave power to enfranchise the tenements on terms to be fixed by the Ecclesiastical Commission, but the terms proposed were in many cases most arbitrary and unjust.

said, the House was of course aware that a Committee had been appointed for the express purpose of inquiring into the conduct of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and particularly the manner in which this matter had been dealt with by them. The interests of the people of Durham would be cared for, as the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ingham) was on the Committee. He could give no intimation of what course would be taken until after the Committee had made the Report.

said, he rose to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control, of which he had given notice. He did not, however, intend to enter into a discussion on the important subject of the annexation of the native states of India. His only object was to elicit some information as to the intentions of the Indian Government with regard to the King of Oude and his dominions. For some time past various rumours had been circulated as to the intentions of the Government on this subject. It was first said that the administration of the territories would be placed in the hands of General Outram, the resident at Lucknow; it was then stated that the revenues of the king would be sequestrated; but the report now was that the king was to be dethroned, and his dominions annexed to the British territories in India. Now that he considered was a subject on which the House ought to have some information. If the sovereign of a country larger and more fertile than Belgium was to be dethroned, and his subjects handed over to the authority of the East India Company, the House ought to know the reasons for such a step. He did not intend to enter into a discussion on the relations between the Indian Government and the native states, but he would read a dispatch written in 1814 by Mr. Ricketts, the then secretary of the Government of India, to Major Baillie, the resident at Lucknow.

"You are to inform the Nawab that the Governor General will be much gratified if he will show his anxiety for the promotion of British interests by advancing another loan of a crore of rupees. The Governor General is most anxious to know the result of your negotiation, as the Government will be seriously embarrassed if the loan is not obtained."

Major Baillie, in his answer, wrote that he had obtained fifty lacs of rupees with great difficulty, and further stated that—

"The Nawab is beginning to entertain suspicion of our disinterestedness; some persons are endeavouring to persuade him that our object is to drain him of all his wealth, and when we have plundered him entirely to take possession of his dominions."

He would, then, ask the right hon. Gentleman whether instructions had been sent out to Lord Dalhousie, empowering him to sequestrate or annex the territories of the King of Oude at his discretion; whether any desire had been manifested by the people of that country to come under our dominion; and lastly, when the correspondence would be laid on the table of the House?

said, he did not expect that the hon. Member who spoke last would have made a speech of; so much importance on the question of the adjournment of the House, but he had no objection to tell his hon. Friend how the question stood, although he was not prepared, nor was it usual to lay a paper on the table of the House before the correspondence to which they related had been brought to a conclusion. The House was, no doubt, aware that, for the last fifty-six years or thereabouts, the state of the kingdom of Oude had occasioned the utmost anxiety to the Government of India; and, to such an extent had these abuses reached during the last summer that General Outram, who was known to be strongly in favour of the rights of native princes, had reported to the Governor General that it was impossible for things to remain in their present state. That opinion was reported by the Governor General to the Home Government, together with a statement of several modes in which it was thought by himself and gentlemen with whom he had consulted that the deplorable state of things might be put an end to. The dispatches on the subject were taken into consideration by the Directors of the East India Company and by the Government, and, after going through the details and difficulties of the questions, and considering the great reputation and long experience of Lord Dalhousie, it was thought that the best course to be adopted would be to give a very largo measure of discretion to the noble Marquess in dealing with a matter requiring so much tact and delicacy. The result of that consultation was communicated to Lord Dalhousie on the 21st of November last, but no answer had as yet been received to it except a simple acknowledgment from the noble Marquess of the pride which he had felt in being intrusted with that discretion, and an expression of his determination to take the responsibility upon himself. He added, however, that, whatever course he pursued, he should use every possible means of avoiding all chance of a collision, and that he should have the most scrupulous regard to the feelings and claims of the natives. Thus the question stood at the present moment; but when a more detailed answer had been received from the Governor General, and the correspondence had been brought to a close, he would lose no time in laying it on the table. With regard to the second question put by the hon. Gentleman, as to whether there had been any expression of opinion on the part of the people of the kingdom of Oude as to their desire to be annexed to the possessions of Great Britain, he had to remind the hon. Gentleman that no appeals or expressions of opinion were permitted by the King of Oude to be publicly made, and that it was consequently very unlikely that the Government of India could obtain any clue to the general opinion of the inhabitants on the subject of annexation.

said, that in his opinion the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman was most unsatisfactory. It was well known that the principles of Lord Dalhousie were in favour of annexing every native state whenever the opportunity occurred; and yet the question of annexing the kingdom of Oude was left to his unfettered discretion. The object of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Otway) was, that the House should decide whether it was an expedient or honourable course that the kingdom of Oude should be annexed, and it was impossible to discuss that question unless the correspondence were laid on the table. The policy of Lord Dalhousie might be the right one, but it was at variance with that of Mountstuart-Elphinstone and Lord Metcalfe. Of late it appeared to be the policy of the East India Company to annex a State whenever it appeared to them that we were in the right; and as that Company always decided that we were in the right, it necessarily followed that they were always in favour of annexation. It had been said when the war against Russia was undertaken, that we had felt it necessary to interfere in order to protect weak States from the oppression of the strong, but he must confess that he had writhed under the eloquent denunciations of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), when he charged this country with having practised towards India precisely the same description of policy which Russia had adopted towards her weaker neighbours. To such a policy he would be no party, and he was, therefore, in favour of getting, on the earliest occasion, full information as to the steps taken by the Governor General of India on this subject.

said, he thought it was scarcely fair of the hon. and learned gentleman to anticipate the legitimate opportunity of discussing the subject, which he himself had pointed out, for the purpose of denouncing the policy of one of the most distinguished rulers India had ever known. He hoped the House would not take its idea of Lord Dalhousie's policy from the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He utterly denied the truth of the statement of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Otway) with regard to the monetary transactions of the Indian Government with the King of Oude. Every farthing received from the King of Oude had been received from him in the way of loan, and it had always borne the highest current rate of interest. Every loan had been repaid either in money or by transfer of territory, and if any portion remained unpaid it continued to bear the regular payment of interest just the same as any other loan granted to the Government of India. One reason which had induced the King of Oude to make these loans was that he was afraid, from the disordered state of his country, that his widows and other members of his family, for whom he was anxious to provide, would be left entirely without support at his demise, and he was desirous in that way of making the East India Company responsible for the payment of a regular stipend to those persons. Such statements as those of the hon. Member for Stafford, injurious as they were to the credit and honour of individuals belonging to the Government of India, ought not to be made except upon good grounds, and unless those who made them were prepared to support them.

said, he would remind the House that the hon. Member who had put the question had done so on the authority of a dispatch from the Resident at Lucknow to Lord Hastings, which itself disclosed a case of great hardship. The observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), in regard to Lord Dalhousie, had been elicited by the panegyric which had been passed upon that nobleman by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control. It appeared to him (Mr. Phillimore), from all he had seen and read, that Lord Dalhousie was inflamed with a dangerous sprit of aggrandisement. He had already entangled us in one most unjust and indefensible war, and was not a person to whom he (Mr. Phillimore) should like a question of this importance to be referred.

said, he must warn the House to be very cautious of taking upon trust the ebullitions of virtuous indignation of the hon. Member for Honiton (Sir J. Hogg). That hon. Member denied in that House the truth of the assertion as to the practice of torture in India. Taking that as an example and illustration of the value of the denial of the hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Roebuck) left him and the House to settle the matter.

said, that in justice to a firm which had been mentioned on the preceding evening as having supplied the defective trousers to the cavalry of the German Legion, concerning which he had put a question to the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance, he must state that he had received from the firm in question (Messrs, Hibbert and Co.) a letter, of which he would read but one passage. That passage was as follows—

"The name of our firm has been mentioned as the suppliers of the articles. As the charge of inferiority of materials is still unrefuted, we think it right to state that we were not the exclusive contractors for the trousers, and that the number supplied by us, as we are ready to prove, was superior to the received pattern."

He believed he was correct in stating that but a small portion of the clothing was supplied by Messrs. Hibbert and Co., the greater part having been made by other firms. One circumstance which ought to be known was, that the pattern for these trousers was bound with a description of leather called Spanish horsehide. The leather used by Messrs. Hibbert and Co. was of that description, but other firms made the straps of an inferior article called sheepskin.

rose and said, Mr. FITZROY, it now becomes my duty to move certain Resolutions, and to lay before the Committee such explanation as is necessary for their information in regard to them. The ordinary practice, when pacific relations subsist between the Government of Her Majesty and those of other independent States, is for the Finance Minister to submit to the House each year one financial statement comprising the revenue and expenditure of the preceding year, together with his estimate of those for the ensuing one. That practice has been found from experience to be convenient to the House, because it places before it at one view the finances of the two years under consideration. I should have been glad if it had been in my power to follow that course in the present Session; but the circumstances in which the country is now placed have left me no option. War imposes necessities upon senates no less than upon generals in the field, and renders necessary a deviation from the ordinary mode of proceeding imperative. The statement which it is my duty to submit to the Committee this evening will be confined to the finances of the present year, and will not trench upon the revenue or expenditure of that which will commence on the 1st of April next. This course, which it is necessary that I should pursue, is at the present moment not unattended with advantages. Although it might have been in some respects more satisfactory to the House that there should have been only one financial statement during the present Session, yet, considering the great efforts which the country has made during the last year, and considering the great expenditure which those efforts have occasioned, it may be satisfactory to hon. Members to learn at an early period of the Session the state of our revenue and expenditure. Uncertainty on a question of this sort must be attended with inconvenience. In friendly quarters it gives rise to apprehensions, in unfriendly ones to hopes; both of which I trust the Committee will find from my statement to be completely groundless. I will now, with the permission of the Committee, recall to its recollection the statement which I made on the 20th of April last, in submitting the budget for the year. The revenue, including new taxes, I estimated at £67,339,000; the loan was taken at £16,000,000, and there was likewise an estimate for Exchequer Supply Bills to the amount of £3,000,000, making the total estimated revenue £86,339,000. The expenditure, as I estimated it on that day, including the payment of £1,000,000 for Ways and Means bills on account of the preceding year,—that is to say, bills to cover expenditure incurred during the preceding year, and £1,000,000 for the Sardinian loan, was £81,899,000. The difference between these two sums was £4,440,000, which was the margin or surplus upon which I had calculated in that statement, so that if the expenditure and revenue had been equal to the estimate there would be on the 1st of April next, a surplus of £4,440,000. However in the supplementary statement which it became necessary for me to make on the 2nd of August last, I stated that in the former calculation I had estimated the total Ways and Means at £86,339,000; but that since that calculation was made I had abandoned an estimated amount of £200,000 from a stamp duty on bankers' cheques, thus reducing the estimated revenue to £86,139,000, and the estimated surplus to £4,240,000. The expenditure, as estimated on the 20th of April, amounted to £81,899,000, but the Committee will recollect that, towards the end of the Session, certain Supplementary Estimates for the military service were laid before the House and voted in Committee of Supply. These Supplementary Estimates amounted to £6,135,000, making a total expenditure for the year of £88,034,000. To meet this expenditure there was, as before stated, the reduced estimate of Ways and Means, amounting to £86,139,000. An additional grant of Exchequer bills and bonds was taken, in consequence of the increased expenditure, amounting to £4,000,000, making a total provision for the year of £90,139,000. The increased expenditure being £88,034,000 there remained a surplus of £2,105,000 according to the last Estimates submitted to the Committee. But this surplus was in a great measure required to restore the balances, which had been assisted at the commencement of the year by Ways and Means bills to the amount of £1,700,000, which were chargeable on the revenue of the current year. The second statement, therefore, presented nearly an equal amount of receipts and expenditure. It now remains for me to state to the Committee how far that estimate has been verified by the result. We are now not very far from the end of the fourth quarter of the year terminating on the 1st of April next, and the statement I am about to submit for the consideration of the House gives an account of the receipts and expenditure up to the latest period, together with an estimate as accurate as circumstances will permit, and derived from reliable authority, of the probable income and expenditure during the unexpired portion of the current quarter:—

said, it was quite clear, from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that there was a bill which must be paid, and he did not know that the right hon. Gentleman could have resorted to a better mode of payment than that now proposed. He understood that the intended loan related entirely to the expenditure of the financial year, which would end on the 31st of March next, and had nothing to do with the expenditure of the incoming financial year. Now, on the 6th of February, he asked whether it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make any financial statement before the Estimates were passed. The right hon. Gentleman was not in the House at the time, but the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury replied that such was the state of the finances that there would be no occasion for any statement—an answer which certainly led the House to suppose that there would be no necessity for borrowing money until the usual time of submitting the Budget for the ensuing year. Now, he considered that it was rather unfortunate that such a statement was made, because it gave rise to some misapprehension in the public mind as to the; sum likely to be required for the public service, and nothing was gained by withholding the truth with regard to the amount requisite for meeting the expenditure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had intimated that he wanted £5,000,000; in other words, he had reversed his Estimate of August last, having calculated his revenue too high and his expenditure too low. The expenditure had been in round numbers £90,250,000. The revenue had been £65,500,000, the loan 16,000,000, Exchequer bonds and bills £7,000,000 more, making a total of £88,500,000. There was consequently a deficiency of £1,500,000. Why did the Chancellor of the Exchequer call for a loan of £5,000,000 to meet a deficiency of £1,500,000? That brought him to the I question—was the right hon. Gentleman certain of the expenditure of the financial year ending the 31st of March next? Were all the bills in? It was hardly possible to know what would be the expenditure in the East, and, therefore, it was important to ascertain the data upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer assumed that £90,250,000 would be sufficient for the expenditure of the year. The right hon. Gentleman had not clearly stated what was the amount of the unfunded debt. Under the powers of a Bill passed last Session he had issued Exchequer bills and bonds to the extent of £7,000,000. Now, he should like to know what proportion consisted of bonds? The right hon. Gentleman had been understood to say £1,000,000, but in estimating the unfunded debt bills and bonds must be taken together. The issue of Exchequer bills amounted altogether to £23,000,000; but what was the issue of Exchequer Bonds?

We have issued altogether £6,000,000 of Exchequer bonds.

Yes; but the right hon. Gentleman must add the amount issued at the time when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) was Chancellor of the Exchequer. At that period there were three classes of bonds issued payable in future years—1858, 1859, and 1860. Ho referred to these things because it was important to bear in mind what was the precise amount standing against the nation which did not assume the shape of stock, otherwise they might fall into serious error. He estimated that there must be at least £30,000,000 of unfunded debt at the present moment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to fund only £3,000,000, which would still leave £20,000,000 of Exchequer bills and a large amount of Exchequer bonds unfunded. The financial question at present before the House was a very simple one. A much more important question would be raised when they came to consider the Ways and Means for next year. Meanwhile, although it was certainly a large operation to borrow £28,000,000 within one year, he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had adopted a wise course in not having recourse to additional taxation to meet the extraordinary wants of the year.

said, he must state, in reply to the hon. Baronet, that the full amount of Exchequer bills now issued was £23,930,600, of which £6,000,000 were not in the hands of the public. The amount of bills issued since the 21st of August last was £6,000,000, and the amount of bonds issued during last year was £1,000,000. The total amount of bonds issued previously was, he thought, £6,000,000; but the question of funding did not apply to Exchequer bonds.

said, he was sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer continued to pursue the imprudent course of raising money by adding to the Three per Cent Consols. Almost the whole of the debt was now in Three per Cents. Now, the interest of that description of stock could not be reduced without twelve months' notice, and therefore the Chancellor of the Exchequer was precluded from taking advantage of a favourable state of the money market to reduce the interest of the debt. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford, when Finance Minister, made a praiseworthy attempt to effect a change, and would have succeeded had not the war unfortunately broken out before he had time to perfect his scheme. If the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he ought, had proposed to raise the new lean by receiving one pound sterling for every pound of the debt, he would have had an opportunity of reducing the interest of any portion of it whenever the money market was in a favourable condition. But he was now adding to the debt upon the most unwise principle that could be adopted. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly obtained very fair terms, considering the state of the market, but he greatly objected to the contracting of the debt. He thought posterity had not been honestly dealt with, for, while we were only to pay £15,500,000 towards the expenses of the war, we were about to throw a debt of £28,000,000 upon posterity. A day would come when posterity would get tired of paying that debt, and a dangerous day it would be for estates and titles, and he hoped it would not affect even the stability of the Throne. It appeared to him that the present system, if pursued, would be a ruinous one. Mr. Macaulay had been referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but he (Mr. W. Williams) had yet to learn that Mr. Macaulay was a prophet as well as an historian. The money market had been too strong for every Chancellor of the Exchequer except the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford, but the present Chancellor of the Exchequer might also have triumphed over that powerful interest if he had acted with the same resolution as his predecessors. He protested again most strongly against the addition now being made to the debt.

said, he thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had adopted a prudent and judicious course; and, as to what the hon. Member for Lambeth had said about Mr. Macaulay turning prophet, he (Mr. Macgregor) would remind the hon. Member that he had himself indulged in prophecy as to what the effect of the present system would be in respect to posterity.

said, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford had obtained money by means of Exchequer bonds at 4¼ per cent, when he might have obtained it by Consols at 3frac14;. The present high rate of interest arose from natural causes, and was, he thought, likely to continue. The discovery of gold, instead of diminishing the valuo of money, had had a contrary tendency, for it had caused large tracts of land to be brought into cultivation, and thereby increased the rate of profit. He believed that no very good opportunity was yet likely to present itself of paying off the debt upon good terms, and the price which the right hon. Gentleman had obtained for his stock proved that the apprehension expressed by his hon. Friend (Mr. W. Williams) as to the payment of the debt by posterity was not very widely spread.

Sir, I had no intention of troubling the Committee with any remarks, on the present occasion, for I confess I have' very little fault to find with the proceedings of my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. However, I wish to make a few observations on some points that have been adverted to on the subject of the Resolutions. I wish, first of all, to set right the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, as he was much mistaken in what he stated with reference to the history of Exchequer bonds. In the first place, Exchequer bonds are not a stock at all, and, therefore, a comparison between them and any particular kind of stock is perfectly irrelevant. In the second place, the hon. Gentleman has misapprehended and misstated both the terms upon which it would have been practicable to borrow in Consols when the Exchequer bonds to which he referred were issued, and the terms upon which they were issued. He said they were issued at 4¼ per cent. [Mr. WILKINSON—Some of them were.] None of them were issued at 4¼ per cent, and the average rate at which they were issued was considerably under 4 per cent. He is also completely wrong when he says that we might have borrowed money in Consols at 3¼ per cent. The rate at which we must have borrowed in Consols in April, 1854, was much nearer 3½ than 3¼ per cent. With regard to the contracting of the loan in Consols, it is a question involving different considerations, which tell in different directions; but considering the limited amount for which my right hon. Friend was about to operate, I cannot find any fault with him for not taking this opportunity to create new stock and to borrow on a new principle. I think his natural course was to deal with that stock which commanded the hest price in the market, and I join with the hon. Gentlemen who have preceded me in congratulating him on the fair and equitable price lie has obtained. There are, however, one or two points touched on in the present discussion which I cannot pass by without notice. In doing so, I do not intend to question the correctness of my right hon. Friend's figures, but it is possible that some members of the Committee may go away with a false impression unless something be added to his statement with regard to the expenses of the war. I understood him to state that the Government had borrowed £28,000,000 during the present year; but do not let the Committee suppose that the amount we have borrowed in the present year is the total addition which has been made to the debt, taking the funded and the unfunded debt together, since the commencement of the war. The money we have borrowed is one thing, the stock we have created is another. My right hon. Friend has purchased unfunded securities to a considerable extent with money which he has obtained by the sale of funded securities, but in selling those funded securities in the open market he has created an amount of debt considerably greater than the amount of money he has obtained. It does not admit of dispute that, by the operation of to-night, we are dealing with a plan for raising £5,000,000 of money and funding £3,000,000 of Exchequer bills, but that the amount of debt to be created is nearly £9,000,000 instead of £8,000,000. I am subject here to correction by my right hon. Friend, but, as far as I can run over the figures from recollection, I should think that the present amount of the public engagements, if summed up and compared with their amount twenty-four months ago, represents, as nearly as possible, an increase of debt to the amount of £36,000,000 instead of £28,000,000. I am quite open to correction if I am wrong, but I do not think that I have overstated the case. Then, with respect to my right hon. Friend's statement as to the expense of the present war, I do not think it calculated to give an entirely just and accurate impression, because he has taken the twenty-two months and a half of war, and has compared them with twenty-two months and a half of peace, as if those months had been months of average expenditure as during peace. But it should be in the recollection of the Committee that the two years immediately preceding the outbreak of war were years in which there had been a considerable increase in I our military establishments, including not an inconsiderable expense on account of the Kafir war, which was an incident not belonging to a state of peace but to a state of war. That, however, is not the point to which I am most anxious to call the attention of the Committee. It is, I apprehend, a fallacy when we reckon the expense of the war, to reckon that which we have actually disbursed, and to: say that, because we have spent only £45,000,000, therefore, that is the cost of the operations of war up to the present time. The fair way to test the question is this:—Suppose the war to cease at the present moment, would that amount of £45,000,000 constitute the whole amount necessary to be paid on account of the war? On the contrary, however vigorous your system of administration, and however excellent your system of accounts may be, there is an immense charge actually incurred, which it is impossible to have got in, but which charge you must disburse in the future, though it belongs to the past, being already incurred. But that is not all. It is a necessary result of every war that, in proportion to the extent of the establishments you create, you should incur great prospective expense in the reduction of those establishments, in the half pay, pensions, compensation allowances, and in ten thousand different forms, connected with a great and sudden expenditure. It is not easy to make any accurate estimate of the expenditure you must make for such reasons, but I very much doubt, supposing war to cease from the present time, whether, before the account should be ultimately closed, it would not be found to be greater by the addition of 50 per cent, or one half more than the sum mentioned by my right hon. Friend. I am not stating these things as bearing on the policy of peace or war, but as bearing on a dry financial statement; and, as all these things in this country are supposed to be brought to account and presented to the House, it is the duty of Members of the House to make any contribution in their power towards a fair, accurate, and perfectly full statement of the subject. Perhaps I may be allowed to make one criticism on the speech of my right hon. Friend, and that has reference to his quotation from Mr. Macaulay. I would rather have heard Mr. Macaulay quoted in almost any other passage of his wonderful book than in that relating to the National Debt of this country. But if he were to be cited on that particular passage, I would rather have heard him cited in reference to it by any other Member than by my right hon. Friend who holds the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think it is the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer not to anticipate in this House too great a disinclination to borrow. When my right hon. Friend comes to us to propose loans, let him rely on it, he has no need of citations from Mr. Macaulay. When he comes to impose taxes—to propose some painful and self-denying Resolution, at the hazard, to us, of encountering the displeasure of our constituents—when he should call on us to make vigorous efforts to prevent the contraction of enormous permanent obligations—then let him cite Mr. Macaulay. Let him, I adjure and I implore him, search the pages of that writer and get the most eloquent and best passage he can to wind up the House to a resolution necessary for such a course. But when the right hon. Gentleman tells us that we must borrow some more money, necessary for the discharge of certain expenses, he has no occasion whatever to consult Mr. Macaulay. My right hon. Friend adverted to another point, in respect to which, though it is not at present under consideration, I must say I cannot quite agree with him, and that was his statement that the wise jealousy of Parliament has greatly curtailed the borrowing powers in the hands of the Government. I am sorry to say, on the contrary, that it appears to me that, instead of a wise jealousy, there has been a very unwise liberality, a great carelessness and neglect on the part of Parliament in intrusting to the Executive Government powers of borrowing by indirect process, such as ought not to be given to any Executive Government whatever. Nor is this a discovery I now make for the first time, because two years ago I ventured to state this opinion when I held the office of Minister of Finance; and, before I quitted office, I presented to the House a Bill for the purpose of limiting and restraining within what I considered safe bounds these, in my opinion, very unwise powers. I will now conclude with expressing a hope that my right hon. Friend's anxiety in respect to the management of our finances during a time of war, great as it must be, will not prevent him preparing some measure with a view to the reformation of our financial system. If we are blest with an honourable termination of hostilities, I trust my right hon. Friend will apply his mind to that subject, and present some measure to establish better and more effectual safeguards on the borrowing powers of the Executive Government than can be said to exist at present.

said, he thought that the present loan would entail a smaller charge on the country than if it had been borrowed in the manner suggested by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Wilkinson).

said, he could not avoid expressing his surprise that no explanation had been given of the very large Estimates which had been laid on the table. Great changes had recently been made in the War Department, and he was afraid that no person in the department could exactly state what were the duties of the new offices which had been created. The salaries had been enormously increased, and the duties of the department had been most inefficiently performed. There was great cause to complain of the unintelligible manner in which the Estimates were drawn up. Every thing was jumbled together in the greatest disorder, and he had great doubts whether the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance himself would be able to unravel the confusion. He should, however, reserve his remarks on the details of the Estimates for a future occasion, and confine himself at present to calling the attention of the House to the extravagance of the War Department. Last year the War Department cost the country £169,260, while the two departments of Secretary of War and Secretary at War, before they were consolidated, only cost £102,244, being an increase in the expense of about £67,000, though the work now was certainly not so well done. For instance, nothing could be more expensive and absurd than the present mode of clothing the British troops. Formerly the clothing of our soldiers was intrusted to a Board, composed of general officers, being colonels of regiments, who were allowed to make a profit on the contracts. But that system, though approved by the Committee of 1833, had been lately abolished in deference to the public voice, which had been loudly raised against it. Last year, the Ordnance directed the commanding officers of regiments to make bargains with the contractors at a price which the Ordnance fixed. Nothing could be more advantageous than that system. The commanding officers were by far the best judges of the quality of the clothing to be supplied to the men, and their interest was the same as the men's, to get the best cloth possible for the money. Of the system which the Government proposed to adopt he must express his condemnation; and he hoped that, if the House did not feel justified in going so far as to concur with him in that censure, it would at least refer the two systems to a Committee. The plan, as far as he could understand it, was to make the Government itself the clothier for the entire army. Now he considered that it was impossible that that plan should succeed; and he feared that great losses might be incurred in the attempt to carry it into operation. In the French army the materials were supplied by the Administration, and the clothes were made up by the soldiers. That system might work well in the case of a large army composed of conscripts, among whom there would probably be a good many tailors, but it could not be acted upon in our much smaller regiments without taking too many men from the fighting portion of the army. He even understood, that the Government intended to go further, and proposed to manufacture the cloth. To do so they must erect manufactories. Taking the strength of our army at 300,000 men, and allowing five yards of cloth per man, it would require 1,500,000 yards per annum to clothe the army. The erection of a manufactory which would turn out fifty pieces of thirty yards each per week would cost £30,000 or £40,000. The cost, therefore, of erecting manufactories which should make the cloth required for the whole army (for in his statement of the amount required he had not included great coats) would be about £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. What must they do then, how was the army to be clothed? It must be done by contracts, but not according to the system of taking the lowest contract. The proper plan was, to ascertain as nearly as possible what was the real value of the requirements of the army, and to give such a price as would hold out to a respectable tradesman the inducement of a fair profit. The security would then be in the respectability of the contractor, and it did not then matter by whom the contracts were made, although in his opinion the lieutenant-colonels were the proper persons to be charged with that responsibility. He could point out many cases in which evil had arisen from adopting the lowest tender. Not long ago tenders wore received for making trousers for the Land Transport Corps. Several respectable houses in the City tendered to make them at 23s. per pair; but the tender accepted was one from a party offering to make them for 18s. The cloth used in the sealed pattern was worth 8s. a yard. That employed in making the trousers sent in by the party who obtained the contract could be purchased for 5s. 10d. The trousers were made with more seams than there were in the pattern, and the work was very badly done; yet 1,200 pairs were accepted by the Board of Officers, and the Ordnance were now ashamed to issue them. If they were issued, some compensation must be given to the soldier at the expense of the country. He was informed that this contract, even at 18s. a pair, allowed a profit of 60 per cent to those who took it. On a previous occasion a, question had been asked as to the failure of the saddles and bits supplied to the German Legion. The fault in the case of these articles was not in the patterns, but in the- workmanship. He had had a, saddle of the same pattern made by Mr. Gibson, and nothing had happened to it. The bits were made of cast instead of forged iron, and to this cause, and not to their form, their fragility was to be attributed. The evils of the present system were to be attributed to the absurd and shortsighted policy of the Government in accepting the lowest tender without regard to the character or competency of the contractor. There should be a total change in the present arrangements regarding contracts, and an inquiry should be instituted by means of a Committee into the principles upon which it would be advisable to conduct such arrangements for the future. Nothing could be much worse than the present state of things with regard to the supplies required for the army. Whether regard were had to the provisioning of the army or to the supplying of gunpowder, or to the furnishing of any of the requirements of a great military establishment, he would not hesitate to say that our operations were carried on in a less satisfactory manner this year than last, when the old system of divided departments prevailed. He had been a Member of the Committee appointed to consider the general subject of firearms, and the particular question of the propriety of erecting a Government manufactory of arms. The Government wanted more money for the purposes of that manufactory than the Committee was willing to give, and the result had completely vindicated the judgment of the Committee. He remembered the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) prophesying at the time that not a single rifle would be made for two years in their manufactory, and the hon. Member was perfectly correct; for if he (Colonel Dunne) moved for a Return tomorrow, he did not believe the right hon. Gentleman could show that it had turned out a single rifle. What was more, he did not believe the whole of the machinery was yet erected, though he admitted much work had been executed there in another way, that was in setting up muskets. In the Estimates he observed the sum of £700,000 for firearms, an amount sufficient to supply 200,000 stand of arms. He should have thought, from the anticipations expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance last year, that ere this there were rifles for the whole of our force, large as it now was. But the militia had them very sparingly, and he was not sure that the several foreign legions in our service were better armed than they. At all events, he was satisfied that the anticipations of the right hon. Gentleman and the Government as to this manufacture had not been realised. He should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman also whether all the men in the Estimate were actually enlisted. The number was put down at 264,000; and he wanted to know if we had really all those men under arms. The Estimates represented that we had 20,000 men in the German legions, now he did not believe we had. So with the militia—had we all the men who were mentioned in the Estimates, or was it only intended to enlist them? He saw with regret the number of foreign legions in the service of the Crown, because they were the most expensive troops we could have, whilst they did less service than any other corps. He observed that £778,000 had been laid out upon the German, Swiss, and Italian legions, and he contended that up to that moment we had received no equivalent for that enormous sum of money from anyone or all of those corps, and that should the war end the whole of the money would have been thrown away. For the Turkish Contingent the sum of £475,000 was put down in the Estimates, and he wished to be informed if that was the whole sum that would be required for the force? But the most monstrous item in the Estimates was that for the Land Transport Corps. He found that rather more than £1,250,000 had been laid out on that service, of which not less than £400,000 was for animals; and yet the fact was notorious, that at the time it was most wanted there had been an almost total absence of the means of carrying provisions from the rear to the front of the army before Sobastopol. How far the officers of the staff might have been blamable, inquiry alone would tell; but certainly the main cause of the disasters suffered by the army in the Crimea was the inefficiency of the Land Transport Corps. The army had been sent out without adequate preparations being previously made for supplying it, and the abominable system of contracts, which in a country like Turkey was absurd as well as abominable, was had recourse to. The evils of the present system lay too deep for the mere condemnation or acquittal of individual staff officers to remedy them. Nothing would suffice that fell short of the proper organisation of our army departments at home as well as abroad. Before Lord Raglan went out he (Colonel Dunne) expressed to him his anxiety to go out with the army, but that noble Lord answered him, that if he wished to sec service it was no use for him to go, because there would be not a shot fired. Officers were, however, selected and sent out who were wholly without experience and without any knowledge of the country. The same applied equally with respect to the huts for the army in the Crimea. The timbers were sent in one direction—the nails and screws in another; and when they reached Balaklava they could not be got to the front, though it was a distance of only seven miles. So far as huts were concerned, however, he would direct attention to those which wore being erected a home; and he believed that the whole system of hutting at Aldershot and the Curragh had been conducted in the most extravagant manner possible, and even without the precaution having been first taken of draining the ground. No one who had visited the barracks in Ireland could have failed to see that the system was one entire blunder from beginning to end. Yet nobody was responsible for it. Now if the House were required to vote large sums of money, and if there was to be administrative reform, they ought, without respect to party, to take those matters into their consideration; and, supposing they could not decide themselves, to refer them to a Committee for the purpose of ascertaining whether the ideas entertained by him and other were right or wrong, whether the expenditure incurred was extravagant or not, ant whether appointments had not been made of men who were utterly unfit for the situations into which they had been thrust. It was his opinion that this last circumstance lay at the bottom of all the disasters we had experienced in the course of the war. We had changed the system of contract, and the result was an extravagant expenditure. We had changed the system of promotion by seniority, and the result was incompetency, with one or two exceptions. Selection had taken the place of seniority. Favouritism had governed the selection, and from one end of the army to the other there was nothing but discontent. These were all matters which demanded searching inquiry, and he therefore begged to move that the Estimates (or at least that portion of them which related to clothing) be referred to a Select Committee.

said, he could not help thinking that the greater part of his hon. and gallant Friend's speech had much better have been delivered in Committee, when the different Votes to which he had alluded would naturally come under consideration. Take, for example, his reference to small arms, which it was quite impossible for him (Mr. Monsell) to follow him in, without anticipating the statement he intended to make in moving a Vote on the Estimates. With regard to army clothing, he had never heard of anything that was founded more purely on imagination than the statement of his hon. and gallant Friend. The fact was, that the idea had never entered into his (Mr. Monsell's) mind of having a Government establishment for the supply of clothing to the army; and further, he did not believe it had crossed the brain of Sir Thomas Troubridgc, who was at the head of the clothing department, and who, he was satisfied, had too much good sense to have entertained an idea so absurd. But the criticism of his hon. and gallant Friend applied to what had been done under a system that was confessedly incomplete, and rather to parts of the old system which had not yet been altered, than to that which was new. He trusted his hon. and gallant Friend would not consider that he (Mr. Monsell) was treating his remarks with disrespect; but it was obvious that it would be better to discuss the various points alluded to as they arose on the Votes. He could not, however, allow his hon. and gallant Friend's statement as to the condition of the army in the Crimea, and the selection of officers at the head of that army, to pass without giving it an emphatic contradiction. He was aware of this as a fact within his own knowledge, that every one of the officers at the head of the army had been selected simply and solely, because the Government believed they were the most fitting persons to occupy the position to which they had been appointed, and he had never heard of any action of theirs which would lead him to suppose that the Government had in any way been deceived or disappointed in the selection they had made. He rejoiced to say, that the army in the Crimea was in as good and perfect a state as any army that wd ever gone out from this country to meet an enemy; that it was well clothed, well fed, and well looked after. The most constant attention was paid to the drill of he men, and to practising them in the use if small arms. Everything was done which was desirable and necessary to make the army efficient, and certainly one of the last remarks he should have expected to hear n that House was, that it was either improperly officered or improperly provided.

said, he thought that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance in no way answered the complaints of the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Dunne), who had chiefly condemned the evils of the open tender system in relation to Government contracts. That system appeared now to be the rule of the service, any other form of contract being the exception He considered that the open tender system had been pushed to its utmost extent. The Clothing Department might be taken as a type of the system. The model or pattern of a coat was laid before the Clothing-Board, and contractors were invited to send in tenders; but the lowest tender sent in, no matter what might be the position of the man by whom it was made, or whether he was in the trade or not, was accepted. The party who had got the contract then sent in a sample, which was scaled up, and the coats contracted for were made according to that sample, and not according to the original model. The person whoso duty it was to judge of the sample was the deputy Director General of Clothing, who, although a most estimable man in private life, knew nothing, he apprehended, about cloth or clothing. The result was that respectable men would not tender, while others, being aware that the deputy Director General knew nothing about clothing, were ready to tender, and to send in inferior cloth, on the chance of being able to deceive him. Sometimes those deceptions were discovered, and fines and penalties were imposed; but those penalties would not find shoes or clothing for the soldiers, or forage or harness for the cavalry and artillery. Now, what sort of articles were sent out to the Crimea for the use of the troops? They had been described in a recent letter from The Times' correspondent. He was quite ready to admit that, in describing the rnanœuvres of an army, or the details of a battle, The Times' correspondent might be mistaken, or altogether wrong; but he could not conceive how he could make any mistake with respect to stores which came under his own observation, whether at Scutari, at Constantinople, or in London. On the 22nd of January last, The Times' correspondent said—

"The number of pairs of woollen stockings and socks in store is over 200,000. Of course I have not had the opportunity of counting them, but I give the above figures on excellent authority. Those that are being reshipped are only fit for children. They are German goods, and were purchased in all haste last winter by consuls and agents. When they came nobody could get them on, and, as they were extremely short socks, there was no leg into which the men might have thrust their feet. The same deficiency in size was found in many of the flannel or woven waistcoats sent for the army last winter, and obtained in a similar manner. They were so narrow that the men had to cut them open all down the breast, thus leaving exposed the very part of the body they were chiefly meant to protect. The children's socks are now being sent back to Constantinople, and will, doubtless, have to be sold for a, song, or given to the poor in England, which latter would be the best way of applying this precious Vienna-made hosiery."

He understood that some hon. Gentleman below him (on the Treasury bench) denied the authenticity of this Report. [Mr. G. BERKELEY: No, no!] Well, whether that were so or not, he could also cite the Report of the Commissioners who had been sent out to the Crimea—Sir John M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch. They said—

"So long as the men had to pay for their boots and shoes, there was a disinclination to purchase them from the public store on account of their alleged inferiority in quality. Like all articles obtained by contract from the lowest bidder, the workmanship was bad, and totally unfit for endurance in the tenacious soil of the trenches, or for travelling along the muddy roads in which the men were often half-leg deep. It is stated that, even when sufficiently large, they were altogether unsuited to resist the wet, and that the soles frequently came off in a few days. It was not until the arrival of boots coming up to the knee, and of superior materials and workmanship," (not contract boots taken by the lowest tender)" that the condition of the soldier appears to have been materially improved in this respect, or that he was able to do his duty without the discomfort arising from being ill shod in such a soil. Similar complaints were made by the commanding officers regarding the quality and workmanship of the clothing. It is described as extremely spongy in its texture, badly put together, and quite unfit to stand the tear and wear of the tough work of the trenches. Some of the officers who had examined the clothing of the French soldiers stated that it was greatly superior in texture to that which was supplied to the British troops. The experience gained in the Crimea appears to establish the expediency of improving the quality and workmanship of every part of the soldier's clothing. But it would be vain to look for improvement, so long as it is procured from the man who offers it the cheapest, instead of from him who manufactures it of the best quality."

He thought no one would entertain any doubt that a pair of shoes which cost 16s., and which would last for a month, were infinitely cheaper than a pair which cost 8s., and lasted only for a week; but he did not blame either the present Government, or any preceding Governments, for the mismanagement he had pointed out. He found fault with the system, which imposed no check upon fraudulent proceedings. Now, what check existed upon the contractors for boots and shoes? Why, they had an inspector, who was sometimes called upon to examine 30,000 or 40,000 pairs of boots or shoes which were required for immediate shipment, and how was it possible that such a duty could be satisfactorily discharged by a single individual? The consequence was, that the examination was not made by the inspector, but the duty was transferred to subordinates, who were open to all sorts of influence. He believed that many articles were passed in consequence of the exercise of such undue influence, and that many articles were rejected because that influence was not employed. He had known cases where articles which had been rejected were afterwards passed under another contract; and there could be no doubt that some of the officers—he would not say the inspectors—were ready to pass goods on the receipt of gratuities. He regretted that he was not present when Mr. Speaker called on him to move for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject, and to which he believed the Government would offer no objection, and he had rather availed himself of that opportunity to show the reasons why that Committee should be appointed.

said, he wished to remind hon. Gentlemen of the inconvenience of the course they were now pursuing. The Motion before the House was, that Mr. Speaker should leave the Chair, in order that the House might go into Committee on the Army Estimates; when his right hon. Friend who submitted those Estimates to the Committee would have the opportunity of fully explaining their details, and of speaking as often as might be necessary in order to meet and answer the various observations and objections which might be made by hon. Members in the course of the discussion. If, instead of allowing the House to go into Committee, hon. Gentlemen would enter into a detailed discussion which properly belonged to Committees, those who filled the position of his right hon. Friend were placed in a very inconvenient situation, for after having once replied to one hon. Member they had to be silent during the rest of the evening, and were thus totally unable to give that information in order to obtain which the House was asked to go into Committee. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Dunne) made a long speech, touching upon a great number of topics upon which it was quite fitting that information should be afforded him; but, if his right hon. Friend (Mr. Monsell) now gave answers to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, he would only anticipate the statement he was prepared to make if the House went into Committee. His hon. Friend who had just sat down had made a parenthetical speech that he had intended to make in moving for a Committee, which the Government had expressed their readiness to grant. He had received a communication from his hon. Friend to the effect that if his health compelled him to leave the House before the time came for his Motion, he would get some Friend to move it, on the understanding that it was not to be opposed. If it were inconvenient that Gentlemen should discuss the details of the Army Estimates on the Motion for going into Committee, how much more inconvenient was it for his hon. Friend (Mr. J. L. Ricardo) after his right hon. Friend the Clerk of the Ordnance had spoken, and could not, therefore, say another word, to make a speech which he had intended to make upon moving for a Committee upon army contracts. With regard to the subject of his hon. Friend's speech, he would confine himself to one observation. It was very remarkable and curious how opinions vibrated and oscillated in that House from time to time in entirely opposite directions. He had now been a long time in Parliament, and if there was one thing which he had more earnestly and frequently recommended to successive Governments than another, it was that all supplies should he obtained by open tender and contract. There was nothing more frequently urged by the late Mr. Hume, whom they all regretted, than that that was the only way of obtaining good and cheap things. His hon. Friend (Mr. J. L. Ricardo), however, appeared to be of a different opinion. But the instances quoted by his hon. Friend in which the supplies were not good in their kind, and were much too dear, occurred a year and a half ago, in the winter of 1854–55, and were all cases in which things had been obtained upon a sudden emergency, and not by contract. They were ordered from Vienna, in consequence of the calamity of a storm which destroyed the stores which had been sent out, and which it was urgently necessary to replace at any cost, anyhow. The clothing which his hon. Friend said was so bad was not provided under the present arrangement, but was, for aught he knew, furnished by the colonels, according to the system which then prevailed. At all events, those instances were not applicable as proofs that the present system, which began in June last, was a bad one. He had, perhaps, followed the example he had deprecated; but he put it to the House whether it would not be more convenient to go into Committee, and allow his right hon. Friend the Clerk of the Ordnance to give a full explanation upon all points with respect to which it might be demanded.

said, he thought the discussion had arisen in consequence of a misconception of the statement of the noble Lord in the early part of the evening. He understood the noble Lord to say he only intended to take a Vote on account, and not to go through the Estimates.

Pardon me. What I said was this. My hon, and gallant Friend (Sir De L. Evans) seemed to think that this was the last occasion upon which he would be able to call the attention of the House to the Estimates; and I told him we were going to take Votes on account, and it would be competent for every hon. Member to discuss the question to which these Votes related, but, as we should again be compelled to come to the House for Supplemental Votes, another opportunity would be given for the discussion of the Estimates.

said, he thought that further proceedings on the subject wore likely to be more supplementary than complimentary to the Government. The Estimates proposed on this occasion were three times the ordinary bulk; they involved an expenditure equal to £35,000,000; they were, moreover, constructed on a now form; and yet the House was called on to discuss them without having had the time to read them—within thirty-six hours, in fact, of their being delivered to Members. That was sharp practice on the part of the Government, he had no hesitation in saying. It was no use to appeal to the House, for the leaders of the Opposition had abandoned their post; but he would appeal to the Treasury bench and to the country against such unseemly haste. He would say distinctly, that there was a totally new arrangement of the military expenditure of the country. From the cursory view he had had of the Estimates, he could not see how, in thirty-six hours any one could examine into the mode of expending some £35,000,000; he could not so soon understand the system which was now adopted; and he did not believe that any one could, except Members of the Government. He would say, again, that it was very sharp practice—to bring on the Estimates only thirty-six hours after they had been circulated among the Members—and was a course he was sure the country would not approve. It was no use to bring any question to a Vote; for if the noble Lord asked for £20,000,000 more, the House would give it, for there was no leading Member of the Opposition present. [Colonel DUNNE here came down from the back seats, and took his place in the front row.] He begged the hon. and gallant Gentleman's pardon. The answer given by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Monsell), which had been given to the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Dunne), was not at all satisfactory. Was that all the statement that was to be made on the part of the Government? What opportunity would there be for a discussion on the administration of the army during the war if the Government was now allowed to go into Committee? This was a most important occasion. It was doubtful whether the Estimates were for war or for peace; and they were brought in on a new plan, the Army and Ordnance Estimates being for the first time taken together, and they were to be brought forward by a right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance, who up to a recent period knew nothing whatever about the Army or the Ordnance, and he was to dictate to the House on those subjects. He thought that when he appealed to the noble Lord to give two or three days for the consideration of those Estimates he ought to have answered otherwise than he did. He (Sir De L. Evans) considered that he ought to know something of those matters, and if he made any observations on the Estimates which were inefficient he must be excused, as he had not had time to make himself acquainted with them. If it was thought inconvenient for him to go into the general question of the administration of the army before the House went into Committee, he would not say a word, but he protested against these Estimates, important as they were—the most important that had been brought forward for forty years—being brought on for consideration only thirty-six hours after they had been delivered to Members.

said, that the Estimates were very voluminous, and had only been delivered recently, so that he had not had time to read them. He did did not object to passing Estimates required for carrying on the war, but there were many Votes unconnected with the war which the House ought to have time to consider. He was inclined to move the postponement of the Committee till Monday next.

said, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had very justly observed that in former years great stress had been laid on the system of tender; and he (Mr. Muntz) admitted the system of tender afforded very good means of obtaining goods advantageously, but then the goods supplied ought to be strictly examined by persons competent for the duty.

said, he had seen the clothing of soldiers for the last twenty years, and all he could say was that it was not possible for anything to be worse than the clothing of the private soldiers at the present time. He could bear testimony to the goodness of the articles furnished to the regiment to which he belonged. Mr. Isaacs had been in the habit for a number of years of serving the regiment he had the honour to belong to with articles of necessity, not clothing, and had done so in the most satisfactory way. He understood that Mr. Isaacs had also supplied 40,000 suits of clothing during the last year, and that none of the suits had been returned by the persons to whom they were supplied. He thought it most unfair on the part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman to assert that the officers holding command in the Crimea were totally incompetent. [Colonel DUNNE denied that he had said so.] Another remark of the hon. and gallant Gentleman was equally ill-founded, to the effect that Lord Raglan had chosen the staff entirely in the idea that they would not hear a shot fired. Lord Raglan could not have made that observation in respect to the staff, because he knew that they would rather be fired at than not.

said, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had entirely misunderstood him. He said that there had been a system of selection instead of the system of seniority, and he certainly added that he did not think that there was so much incompetency in former years. He, however, observed that there were exceptions, such as his hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Sir De L. Evans) and others. He had never made the slightest accusation against Lord Raglan, but merely repeated what that noble Lord said, that he (Colonel Dunne), if he went to the Crimea with him, would not see a shot fired.

said, he wished to say a few words on the question of open contracts, which he thought a good system if it was coupled with an adequate system of inspection. He had peculiar opportunities of ascertaining that abuses existed in the present system. He had always held the opinion that the Government establishments could not compete with private establishments if they were well managed; and he had always heard with grief and annoyance observations made in that House tending to a preference for private establishments, when he believed that those of the Government were quite equal to what was required. Government supplies should be thrown open to contract, with a special provision for accurate inspection. He was most desirous to see some such system introduced into the public service. He did not agree with the hon. Member (Mr. Ricardo) that competition should be confined to respectable manufacturers, because the word "respectable" was open to misrepresentation. It was, however, the duty of the parties who held the patterns to see that every article was properly examined hymen of integrity. An officer had just been appointed to make contracts, but there was no officer to sec that they were fairly executed. The officers were anxious to do their duty, but not being practical men they were deceived and imposed on in the grossest manner. Last year some waggons were built to be sent out to the Land Transport Corps. They were very beautiful to look at, and were highly praised by every person who saw them; but when tried, they proved useless and inefficient and utterly failed. The Report on the state of the Army showed the lamentable results of the inefficient supply of boots and shoes; articles were sent out that would not wear a week. Whoso fault was it? It was the fault of the inspector, whose duty it was to examine them. If the contractors knew there was an honest and efficient person to examine the supplies, there would be no more tenders at insufficient prices. He would not dwell further on those points, but wait until the details came before them in the Estimates.

said, they were proceeding in a most inconvenient course, as they were wholly departing from the question, which was, whether the House was in a fit state to go into the details of the important Votes to be brought before them. The noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) said Government only proposed to take a Vote on account, and that the House might at a future time discuss the expediency or amount of it. But he considered, if the House agreed to a preliminary Vote, the House would be precluded hereafter from questioning the Vote either on principle or detail. It would be much more satisfactory to adjourn the consideration of the subject until they could come to it with more satisfaction. He quite agreed with the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Sir De L. Evans) that these were peculiar Estimates, and that it was sharp practice to vote them at so short a notice.

said, he could not understand why the hon. Member could object to a Vote upon account, or think himself precluded thereby from future discussion.

said, that he had said no such thing, He would point out the first Vote on the paper, which involved a pledge which could not be revoked.

said, that if the hon. Gentleman had given the subject a moment's consideration he would see the incorrectness of his opinion, that, by giving a Vote on account they were precluded from afterwards going into the details. He would only remind the House of what had taken place with regard to the Navy Estimates. He had asked the House to vote 76,000 men for three months, and, of course, he must come for another vote for whatever number would be required for the remaining nine months; instead of £3,500,000 he had only taken £2,000,000 on account, and the whole details of the Navy Estimates would have to come again before the House when he asked for the Supplemental Vote. Nothing could be more inconvenient than what had taken place for the last two hours. Hon. Gentlemen got up and made objection to details, and complained that the Estimates were obscure, not reflecting that by preventing the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance from making his statement they were depriving themselves of the explanation they desired. He hoped that as two or three hours had been already wasted no further interruption would be offered to the public business.

said, he proposed, in the first instance, to submit to the House four Votes on account of expenditure incurred in the Ordnance Department, which had not already been voted by Parliament. The first item was £294,154. Of this sum £65,373 was for barrack supplies. This had been expended partly on supplies for hospitals—among them were some cork beds, which had been found exceedingly useful. £91,077 was for boots and shoes, the demand for which had been greatly increased, beyond the regular quantities, by our having to provide them for the Turkish Contingent as well as for the rest of our army. The sum of £137,704 was for warm clothing, an addition to £120,000 already voted. This had been needed in order to supply all the demands made by the Quartermaster General in the Crimea. Most of the other items were for expenditure rendered necessary by the preparations for the great mortar equipment which was being sent to Sebastopol just at the time of its fall; and by those which had been made for fitting out the Baltic fleet at the present time. When he informed the Committee that the expenses of the portion of that equipment to be supplied by the War Department amounted to about £530,000, they would see that the Supplemental Estimate of £23,000 for wages for the carriage department, £11,000 for the Royal laboratory, £5,000 for the gun factories, £4,000 for the storekeeper's department, and also £200,000 for miscellaneous stores for the manufacturing department, were at once accounted for. There was, however, one item of those Supplemental Estimates to which, as it had been referred to in the course of the discussion which took place before Mr. Speaker left the Chair, he would direct the attention of the House. That was a sum of £15,000 for wages at the Tower. It was quite true that during a considerable part of last year the arrangements for the inspection of articles received at the Tower were most unsatisfactory. All the passages were crowded up with goods of various descriptions. To remedy this great inconvenience, the Government took a considerable amount of accommodation at the London Docks, and absolutely prohibited the reception of additional articles at the Tower; all the hands at that establishment being thenceforward employed in the arrangement of the articles already received. The result was, that at present the storehouses at the Tower were in a very satisfactory state. Within a short period the whole system of inspection there had been altered. Some persons had been, and others were to be, selected, who had special knowledge of the articles which they were to inspect. He therefore hoped that all causes of complaint would be removed, and that in future the system would give entire satisfaction to the public. While it was right to insist on fining contractors who did not deliver goods in proper time, it was impossible for that to be done, so long as obstacles were placed in their way by delays in the inspection of goods delivered. The next item referred to the expenses for the Land Transport Service. The sum required was £40,144. The greater part of that sum, about £37,000, was for carts for the Crimea, for which there had been a great demand. Hon. Gentlemen had complained that these carts and wag-gons had not turned out so well as they ought to have done. The fact was, that orders were given that the carts should be made not to exceed a certain weight, and he had been informed by the able officer who presided over the Carriage Department that they had been as strong as it was possible to make them in accordance with those instructions. Some of the axles which had been complained of had been sent from the Crimea to Woolwich, where they had been tested up to four times the weight that they were intended to carry, and had answered perfectly. The reason of the failure was obvious, those carts were, on account of their exceeding lightness, not adapted to the rugged paths over which they had to pass in the Crimea, and he thought that, in future, it would be necessary to sacrifice lightness to an increase of strength. The item of £26,000 for machinery for the Royal laboratory was one of considerable importance. Last year he (Mr. Monsell) stated that a small shell foundry was about to be established, and he anticipated that the public service would be greatly promoted by the increased facility of obtaining shells, and that there would be a great saving in their cost compared with the price paid to contractors. Those anticipations, he was glad to inform the Committee, had been completely realized. Shells, for which the price paid to con tractors was £11 15s. per ton, had been produced at the Royal Arsenal under the direction of Captain Boxer, the inventor of the machinery, at a cost of only £6 6s. 8d. per ton, including a fair charge for the deterioration of plant and for the interest of the money spent on the erection of the building. These facts were brought before him in an able paper by Captain Boxer, who recommended that a foundry should be erected which would produce shells as fast as they could be bushed and their fuses supplied by the Royal laboratory. That paper was submitted to his noble Friend at the head of the Government and to his noble Friend the Secretary for War. It had been carefully considered by them, and it had been resolved by the Government that the foundry should at once be erected. The £26,000 now asked for was a portion of the sum of £55,000 which the foundry would cost. That sum was in course of being expended, and would be spent by the 31st of March. He hoped that the saving in the cost of shells would to a considerable extent reimburse the country for the expenditure; and, he was certain, that there could be few things more important than to have the means of producing at a moment's notice a large quantity of a species of ammunition which every day's experience showed to be of such great importance in modern warfare. He therefore was convinced that the Government had acted rightly in commencing the erection of the enlarged foundry. The next item was £1,268 for the payment of the Select Committee at Woolwich—a sum which, regard being had to the fact that no fewer than 1,200 inventions had been brought under their consideration in the course of the past year, would scarcely, he thought, be deemed exorbitant. Then came a Vote of £1,100 for the Board appointed to examine candidates for admission into the Artillery and the corps of Engineers. That expenditure had been rendered necessary by the substitution at the Royal Academy of Woolwich of a system of open competition, for the plan of patronage heretofore prevalent. The latter practice had been completely abolished, and any person of the proper age and properly recommended could now offer himself as a candidate for a cadetship in the Royal Artillery or the Royal Engineers. The examinations were conducted under the superintendence of Professor Mosely and a staff of examiners, who had displayed much learning, skill, and ingenuity in the difficult task of constructing a new system. The result had proved most satisfactory; they had received the best possible accounts from Colonel Portlock and the other authorities at Woolwich, of the conduct of these young men, and their proficiency in the different branches to which they had since applied themselves. They had also shown remarkable skill in those other preparations for military service which some gentlemen thought young men chosen in that way would not be well adapted for; experience showed that they possessed not only intelligence, but military bearing. He would now pass from the Supplemental Estimates.

said, he hoped that the Government intended to maintain, on a satisfactory footing, the establishment at Shoeburyness.

Assuredly. That establishment was one of very great importance, and, in fact, the only place at the disposal of the Government for making experiments with heavy ordnance. The experiments made there during the present year had been attended with the most interesting results—results, however, which as yet had less relation to the introduction of new inventions than to the detection of certain fallacies which had taken possession of the public mind with respect to particular kinds of guns and projectiles, As a place of practice range the establishment was of the utmost utility, and the Government intended to keep it in the best possible condition. He would now enter upon the Army Estimates for the present year, he did not think that they would be difficult of comprehension to any man having a practical knowledge of such matters. Many of the Votes wore not at all changed, and the mode in which others were blended together was clearly explained in a table in which the different services of Ordnance, Commissariat, and Army were lucidly arranged. In submitting the Estimates in the form in which they were now presented, the Government had but carried out the suggestions of the Committee of 1837, who recommended that the Votes for all branches of the service should be placed before the House of Commons at the same time, so that the House might see at a glance the military expenditure for the year. This could now be done; but it was not practicable until the whole of the civil departments of the army had been placed under one head. At the same time that those departments were placed under the absolute and undivided control of a Secretary of State there were removed from the War Department certain duties not properly belonging to it. Formerly the Commissariat had under its charge not only the duty of providing food for the army, but also that of "raising, upholding, and outlaying" certain funds required for the military and other services. Those duties were now thrown upon the Treasury, to which, as the financial department of the country, they properly belonged, and the principal duty of the Commissariat now was to provide food for the army. The present Estimates, though largo as compared with those to which we were accustomed in time of peace, were light as contrasted with those of the last three years of the last war. In 1813 the expenditure for Army, Ordnance, and Commissariat, was £36,245,238; in 1814 it was £49,482,911; in 1815, £49,562,269—an expenditure considerably in excess of the Votes now submitted. The first Vote he had to propose was for 246,716 men, which showed an increase of 30,378 men over last year. Before proceeding to explain it, however, he would take leave to say a few words on the present condition of the army serving in the Crimea. Of their heroic fortitude, gallant service, or bravery, it was unnecessary to speak, but he might be allowed to express, in passing, with what pleasure he had learnt that it was intended to give to the new Order of Valour a retrospective operation, so that all who during the last campaign had fulfilled the prescribed conditions would be eligible to be enrolled among its members. And first he would beg to call the attention of the Commitee to the state of the health of the army. A return of the admissions into hospital during the months of September, October, and November, in the Crimea and at home, showed that—

"During the month of September, 1855, the admissions into hospital from the army in the Crimea amounted to 12·59 per cent of the force, whereas the army serving at home furnished only 10·40 per cent, a difference of 2·19 per cent. The deaths during the same month amounted to 0·36 per cent and 0·10 per cent respectively of the force serving in the Crimea and at home, a higher rate of mortality by 0·26 per cent in the former than in the latter. During October the admissions to hospital amounted to 10·07 per cent and 9·66 per cent of the force serving in the Crimea and at home respectively, a difference of 0·31. The deaths in the army serving in the Crimea and that at home amounted respectively to 0·33 per cent, and 0·08 per cent, a higher rate of mortality of the former than of the latter by 0·25 per cent. During November the hospital admissions of the army in the Crimea amounted to 10·23 per cent of the force, and 8·95 per cent of that serving in Great Britain and Ireland, a difference of 1·28 per cent. The deaths amounted to 0·51 per cent and 3·07 per cent respectively of the troops serving in the Crimea and at home, a difference of 0·44. The high rate of mortality of the army in the Crimea during this month is to be attributed to the prevalence of cholera at Scutari.—Army and Ordnance Medical Department, Jan. 24."

When it was recollected that the army in the Crimea consisted of men, a large part of whom had undergone considerable labours and privations, it could not but he satisfactory to the Committee to learn that the general health of that army was almost equal to that of the troops in this country, and even superior to that of the troops on foreign stations for a period of twenty years anterior to the year 1836. Great care and attention had been paid to the food and the clothing of that army; but it should not be forgotten that a debt of gratitude was due to Dr. Sutherland, Dr. Gavin, and Mr. Rawlinson, who went out to the Crimea as Commissioners last spring, and, by the admirable sanitary arrangements they devised for the camps, helped materially to ward off sickness and disease from the troops. A general impression prevailed that a great proportion of the recruits sent to the East were mere boys below the age of eighteen. That opinion, however, was certainly not borne out by facts, as a return which he held in his hand would show—

said, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether some clothing had not been already issued by the department?

said, that no doubt clothing had beenissued—clothing had been sent down from the Tower to Weedon; but it had been inspected under the old system. What he meant to say was, that there was as yet no experience of clothing which had been ordered by the department, received by the department, inspected by the department, and issued by the department. The next portion of the Vote—for provisions, forage, fuel, light, and money allowances at various stations—was, he must confess, a very large one. The increase in the cost of provisions for the men was£347,871, which was caused by the increase of the estimated number of men at the seat of war to 100,000; the total expense, adding 25 per cent for unforeseen expense and losses, was £2,268,003. This estimate was founded on the present average cost of each ration, which was about 1s. 2d. per day. The item for forage for 60,000 horses amounted to £4,861,928. This sum would provide forage for 60,000 horses, at the rate per horse of 3s. 3d. per day, and an addition of 25 per cent was taken for contingencies. Last year the expense of forage was only £1,418,300; the increase this year was therefore £3,443,628. The increase of expenditure for fuel and light at the seat of war amounted to £78,000. On the Vote for the Ordnance stores for the land and sea service there was a decrease this year of £175,000; but a very large sum would be demanded in the first instance for the supply and repair of smallarms. The contracts at Liege were going on admirably, and the guns procured from that place were fully equal to any obtained elsewhere. £13,378 was required for the smallarms' factory at Enfield, where it had been found necessary to erect additional barrel machinery. In the item of gunpowder there was an increase of £90,000, attributable to the fact that a much larger quantity (56,000 barrels) had been contracted for this year than last. The present Vote for the Royal laboratory was in excess of last year's by £246,518, which represented among other things, 50,000 tons of sheet iron, to be used for making shells, &c. The next item showed an excess of £56,224 for waggons, carts, harness, &c., for the Land Transport Corps. The proposal to establish a gun foundry at Woolwich for the manufacture of iron ordnance would necessarily involve considerable expenditure, but the object was well worth the cost. Heretofore the Government used to manufacture their own brass ordnance and to depend on contractors for the iron; but this course was no longer expedient. Last year when there was a great pressure upon the Board for procuring 13-inch mortars, 68-pounders, and other guns that were deemed essential, at the moment the Government went to all the best contractors in the country, and gave their orders to them without undue consideration of an economical nature, and the result was that they had satisfied themselves—and he spoke the opinions of gentlemen who were far better able to judge than himself—that it was not safe to trust the manufacture of those articles to the trade. It happened that we stood higher than any other nation in the world for our ordinary iron, but there was a very small demand for the iron required for these guns. It was a special article required for a special service, and he was ashamed to say, but he had a deep conviction of its truth, that our iron ordnance was inferior to the iron ordnance of many other countries. The Secretary for War had sent a Commission of most able men to Berlin, Liege, and Rouen, the result of whose labours was a most interesting Report, which he proposed to lay on the table of the House, and which, he thought, would substantiate in the fullest manner the statement he had just made. The Committee would not, he was sure, hesitate to take any steps necessary to improve the production of an engine of war which it was absolutely essential to have of the highest possible quality, he was satisfied it would not refuse to authorise an expenditure of some £60,000 or £70,000 for the erection of a gun foundry such as he had described. In one year of war the whole amount would be saved. The Vote for works and buildings was necessarily a large one—£2,044,069; but of this sum £1,072,164 was required for works of fortification already set on foot in Kent, Sussex, Devonport, Aldershot, Dublin, and other places, £317,670 was wanted for current repairs, and there was an item towards the erection of a largo hospital at Southampton Water, to complete which a total outlay of £150,000 would be required. Next, there was a Vote of £105,000 for barracks at Dublin, Chatham, St. Helena, Woolwich, and the Cape of Good Hope. The question of barracks was certainly a very important one. The Committee appointed last year by his noble Friend Lord Panmure to inquire into the improvements that might be made in barracks to promote the health and convenience of the troops had presented a very interesting Report on the subject, which was now lying upon the table. In consequence of that Report plans had been advertised for, and a great number sent in by the architects of the country. A minute calculation had also been made as to what would be the expense of carrying out the suggestions of the Committee—those suggestions being that good rooms should be provided for a portion of the married soldiers; that certain improvements should be made and additional facilities supplied for the amusement of the men; that the number of square feet in the hospital accommodation should be increased; and that some additional advantages should be given to the officers. Now the expense per 1,000 men for infantry barracks, constructed according to the system at present sanctioned, was somewhere about £86,000, or £86 per man on the average. The expense of building barracks according to the recommendation of the Committee would be about £130,000 per 1,000 men, or an excess of £50,000. Of course the Government had some difficulty in knowing what to do upon the subject—for, on the one hand, it would be perfectly absurd to build merely one barrack for 1,000 men on the new system,at a cost of £136,000, and stop there; whilst, on the other, the House would require to reflect a good deal before they actually determined upon placing the whole of the barracks in the kingdom upon that improved footing. He would take another opportunity of calling the attention of the House to this important question. The course that had been taken was this—the Inspector General of Fortifications had been called on to make a return of all the barracks in the country that he considered worth preserving, on account of their position and the accommodation they afforded; how many of them did not come up to the present requirements; what expense would have to be incurred in making them equal to those requirements; and also what the expense would be of bringing them up to the higher requirements of the Barrack Committee. Until some such Report as that had been made, neither the House nor the Government would be in a position to arrive at any final decision upon the question, which was certainly one of great importance. The Government were taking some small steps in the way of providing accommodation for an additional number of married men; but beyond that he did not think that any determination had been come to with regard to carrying out the recommendations of the Barrack Committee, and he did not think they could come to any determination upon the subject until they saw their way clear as to what the whole of the expense of carrying out those recommendations would amount to. He had already mentioned the two principal items for the shell and the cannon foundries at Woolwich, and he could only say that he wished hon. Members of that House who voted these sums would personally visit the establishments at Woolwich, and see how admirably they were conducted, with the invaluable assistance of Captain Boxer and other able officers. \f Vote 13, for the educational and scientific branch, there was an increase of £17,369. Under that head a Director of Artillery Studies had been appointed to train cadets who had received provisional commissions after passing successively through the competitive examination. Colonel Wilford and his staff were training a most efficient body of young officers for this important branch of the army. In Vote 18, for pensions for wounds, there was an increase of about £34,000, arising from the augmented number of wounded officers. In the out pensions there was a decrease of £20,000. This item had been constantly decreasing since the last war, and the present war had not yet had any sensible effect upon its amount. There was an addition of £10,000 in the amount of the Vote for superannuation allowances occasioned chiefly by the retirements consequent upon the consolidation of the different War Departments. He had now gone through the whole of the lengthened details, to which it had been his duty to call the attention of the Committee—the difficulty of the task he had had to discharge being increased from his having that night for the first time to bring under one general review the whole of the items relating to the different consolidated services of the War Department. The whole of these different departments were now governed by one directing head—the Secretary of State for War; yet it had not been possible to bring them all under one roof. Until that had been clone the consolidation could not be said to be complete; but he trusted that that object would be attained in the course of the present year. He would only add, that if any hon. Gentleman wished for any further information which he was able to afford, he would be most happy to furnish him with it.

said, he must complain that the right hon. Gentleman had not replied to the questions he had put to him. The right hon. Gentleman had given them no explanation of the duties attached to the various offices in the new War Department. His statement with regard to the Commissariat was by no means clear, but it seemed that there was to be one department of that service acting under the Secretary for War, whose function it would be to furnish provisions, and another department acting under the Treasury, which would attend to the financial arrangements. The right hon. Member had taken credit for the new Order of Merit, but he (Colonel Dunne) would much prefer to see a lower Order of the Bath instituted for the private soldier. Then as to the new regulation, giving to the soldier £5 and his kit, he did not see the great advantage that regulation would confer on the soldiers. When the bounty was £9, he got his kit for £4, so that by the new regulation he was £1 out of pocket. He regretted also that the right hon. Gentleman had not given the Committee some information with regard to the clothing of the Army. At present there was not any military man who was responsible for the clothing of the troops, and the consequence was, that innumerable troublesome and expensive changes in the uniforms were made.

said, in reply to Colonel Knox, that it had been deemed advisable to provide additional accommodation for troops in case it should be required, and that, if necessary, a large encampment could be formed in Scotland, and other camps could be established throughout the country. As there was a general outcry against the system of billeting, it was proposed considerably to extend the permanent accommodation for troops.

said, he objected to the erection of huts in the north of Ireland, and wished to know if he should have another opportunity of stating that objection?

said, he was afraid that there would be no other opportunity, as the expense was already incurred.

said, he must then state that he considered the erection of those huts, which were fragile and inconvenient, highly injudicious. The same expense would have provided additional accommodation in barracks of permanent brickwork, and have been much more useful to the Army. The whole of the north of Ireland was being covered with huts, which might be burned down and destroyed at any time.

said, that the Government could not wait the time necessary for building new barrack accommodation. They were obliged to do what was to be done with the least possible delay. He admitted that it would have been much better if the accommodation could have been provided in a permanent manner, but the Government had no option.

said, he thought that iron huts, which had been proposed, would have answered the purpose, and would have been much more durable. Perhaps the expense was the objection; he should be glad of information on that head.

said, he must complain of the loose manner in which they were voting away money for barracks without due inquiry. He saw several expensive propositions for warming the barracks with steam or hot water, which he thought quite useless.

said, he would beg to ask whether the hon. Gentleman wished soldiers to be treated like brutes? The hon. Gentleman opposed every proposition for the soldier's improvement and comfort.

said, he wished every provision to be made for the comfort of the soldiers, but objected to unnecessary expenditure.

said, he wished to know if the hon. Member recollected the time when barracks had been knocked down from a false economy. If they were to have good soldiers, they must keep them warm.

said, that in reference to the question asked him respecting iron, huts, the expense of each hut would have been £6 7s. 6d.; but the objection to them, was on the score of their unhealthiness. In reference to what had been last said, he quite agreed as to the false economy which had pulled down valuable barracks and sold the materials for a trifle.

said, that previous to the change recently made, those officers who had arrived at the rank of full colonel also arrived, as a matter of course, at the rank of general officers, but, owing to the recent change in reference to the system of selection, a great number of old officers saw no prospect whatever now of arriving at that rank, after having spent much money in the purchase of their commissions. A case of considerable hardship was that of Colonel Upton, who commanded the Coldstream Guards at the Alma, at Inkermann, and during the Crimean campaign. Owing to having got a certain step in his regiment, he was obliged to return to command his regiment at home, while other officers who remained behind had attained the rank of brigadier-general, and it was consequently impossible to say when Colonel Upton would become a general officer. The Order of Valour had been referred to in the course of the evening, and that, no doubt, would give great satisfaction to the army; and he now took the opportunity of expressing a hope, as many gallant officers were rewarded for their services with the Order of the Bath, that the noble Lord, considering that officers in the army were not over rich, would recommend that in their case the payment of the enormous fees might be remitted.

said, he should move that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

said, he wished to ask whether it was not intended to take the same course in the case of the Army Estimates which had been pursued in those of the Navy; that was, to vote the number of men, and then take a Vote for three months on account for pay and provisions?

That is what we propose; but we want to have the number of men voted, because that is necessary as the foundation for the Mutiny Act.

said, that under those circumstances he would consent to withdraw his Motion.

placed in the hands of the Chairman a Resolution authorising him to introduce a Bill to abolish the Oath of Abjuration.

said, he should not oppose the Motion, as he understood that it had been arranged that the discussion should be taken when the Bill was before them. The Oath of Abjuration in itself contained a provision which had certainly become obsolete, and was inapplicable to the present time, and he quite admitted that, for the purpose of simplifying the oath, that portion of it might very well he done away with. Still, that oath contained a principle which ought to be retained in any oath which should be substituted for it. The Act of Parliament at present obliged Members to take throe oaths—the Oath of Allegiance, the Oath of Supremacy, and the Oath of Abjuration—and each of these oaths contained a principle of its own. In the Oath of Allegiance was contained the principle of simple allegiance to the Queen; in the Oath of Supremacy, by which Members were required to declare that no foreign prince, prelate, or power had any jurisdiction within these realms, was contained what he would call the principle of undivided allegiance; and the third principle, contained in the Oath of Abjuration, was, that Members were called on to pledge their simple and undivided allegiance to the Throne according to a particular line laid down in the Act of Settlement. That principle he conceived to be of the utmost importance, and he should be very sorry to see any oath imposed which did not contain those three principles. Indirectly the Bill would raise a great question, which bad been discussed and decided by several Parliaments. If there was to be any proposition to omit from the oath the words, "on the true faith of a Christian," he must warn the right hon. Gentleman that he must not look for the support of Gentlemen on that side of the House.

said, he hoped it would be understood that he, for one, would be prepared to offer the strongest possible opposition to the passing of the Bill. He must say he could conceive no proposition more offensive to the religious public of England—no proposition more offensive to Parliament itself—than the Bill announced by the right hon. Gentleman. He could foresee nothing but defeat for this attempt to infringe upon the Christian character of the House of Commons.

Resolved—" That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill for abrogating the Oath of Abjuration and the Assurance.