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Commons Chamber

Volume 147: debated on Monday 24 August 1857

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House Of Commons

Tuesday, August 24, 1857.

The Emigrant Ship "Ann Wilson"

Question

said, he would beg to ask Mr. Secretary Labouchere whether he has received any information with regard to an emigrant vessel called the Ann Wilson, which sailed from the Port of Liverpool on the 29th day of November last, particularly as regards the alleged over-crowded state of that vessel—the short supply of water, provisions and medical comforts on board—and the fatal effects that ensued; and whether any inquiry has been or will be made into the facts? It appeared that the master of the vessel had been sued directly the ship got to New Zealand, and had absconded, and the question now was, whether, under the law as it now stood, the owners or charterers of the vessel could be held responsible.

said, that as yet no official information had reached him from the colony of the circumstances of this case. At the same time, the accounts which had appeared in the newspapers having attracted the attention of the Government, the Emigration Commissioners directed their officers at Liverpool to supply such information upon the subject as was obtainable. Accordingly it turned out that, whereas the ship was measured for 186 adults, it only took out 169. He thought, therefore, that some misapprehension must exist as to the facts of the case, at least as regarded the over-crowding of the vessel. It was also stated that there was a full supply of water on board, as well as an abundance of provisions, and that both had undergone the closest inspection. With regard to what took place in the colony, no doubt, if the facts stated by his hon, and learned Friend should prove true, they would be such as to deserve the closest investigation on the part of the Government. But all he could say at present was, that as soon as the ship reached this country the matter would be fully investigated, and if the owners were to blame, the full penalty would be exacted.

The German Legion At The Cape

Question

said, he desired to ask whether the German Legion settlers at the Cape of Good Hope arc at present in receipt of full pay as troops embodied, or the rate of pay specified in the Army Estimate for this year; and also, what is the present numerical force of that corps of all ranks?

said, he had reason to believe that the Governor of the Cape had thought it right to call out the German settlers there to serve as soldiers, and they were, in consequence, at the present moment in receipt of full pay. But he might be allowed to add a hope, that the circumstance would enable the Governor of the Cape to send much larger reinforcements than he would have otherwise been able to do to the assistance of our troops in India. With regard to the numerical strength of the German Legion he believed that, in round numbers, it numbered about 2,300 men.

Committees Of Supply

Question

said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he proposes to recommend to the House the adoption of all or any of the recommendations of the Committee on proceedings in Committee of Supply?

said, that it was impossible to come to any decision in regard to those recommendations at that late period of the Session, but they would be taken into consideration between the present time and the reassembling of Parliament. Whatever might be the decision of the Government on the subject, the Estimates would, of course, be framed in such a manner as to prevent the inconvenience which took place in the last year.

West Indian And Australian Mail Companies—Question

said, he would beg in the absence of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Coningham) to ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury in what manner, if not officially, the Amalgamation of the West Indian and Australian Mail Companies has come before him; also, whether the Chairman of the West Indian Mail Company has not obtained the consent of its shareholders to an amalgamation with the Australian Mail Company, under a more or less positive assurance that the existing Government contracts would be further extended without competition for two years; and whether this is to be considered as a Government guarantee for the sum of £910,000 out of the public purse for services to be performed in the years 1862 and 1863.

said, in reply to the first question of the hon. Gentleman, he might be allowed to state that the only communication which he had had with the parties referred to was a personal communication from the Chairman of the two Companies, in which was intimated their desire to carry a certain proposal into effect. And the reply which he (Mr. Wilson) made to that communication—as stated by him on a former occasion—was that if the Companies laid their proposal before the Admiralty in due form, it would next come under the notice of the Treasury, and that, when it did, it should receive every consideration which so important a question deserved. Since, however, he had made that answer, the Treasury had received the proposal of the Companies through the Admiralty; in fact, it was lying there at that moment, but he had not as yet had time to consider its merits. At the same time, let him assure the House that whatever might be done in the matter would be out of regard for the public interests, and not with any regard to the special interests of the Companies concerned. As to what might have taken place with respect to the West Indian Mail Company he was quite uninformed. With regard to the last question of the hon. Gentleman—namely, whether the sum to be paid by the Government during two years amounted to a guarantee of £910,000 to the Companies, while he could not state the exact sum that would have to be paid by the Government, yet, undoubtedly, if the contract were accepted as proposed, whatever its amount was, it would be equal to an undertaking on the part of the Government to pay that sum of money, under certain conditions, for postal services to be performed by the Companies.

Communication Between London And Dublin

Question

said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the terms of the contract for improving the communication between London and Dublin has been finally settled; and, if so, whether the contract has been executed? Also, what steps the Government have taken towards providing suitable accommodation and the necessary appliances for the embarkation and landing of mails and passengers at Kingstown and Holyhead.

Sir, I am very glad to be able to inform the right hon. Gentleman and the House that at last this long-pending negotiation has been brought to a close. The conditions of the contract have been signed on the one hand by the Marquess of Chandos, on behalf of the London and North Western Company; by Mr. Stanley, on behalf of the Chester and Holyhead Company; and by Mr. Watson, on the part of the City of Dublin Navigation Company. It only remains, therefore, formally to execute the contract. With regard to the other part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, every means will be taken to accelerate the arrangements at Holyhead and Kingstown, in order that all things may be in a state of completeness by the time the new boats are built.

The longest time that can elapse before it comes into execution is two years, but I hope it will come into operation within a shorter period than that. But, considering that four very large vessels will have to be built, and very extensive arrangements to be made, two years was the shortest period which the Government could allow for the completion of the contract.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman how many years has the Treasury been occupied with these negotiations?

said, that the Act of Parliament which authorised these arrangements was passed two years ago, namely, in the Session of 1855; and within about six weeks from the close of the Session, a Minute was issued by the Treasury, although it was no part of their duty, inviting the various Companies to co-operate with the Post Office in carrying the proposed arrangements into effect. Since that time, therefore, the negotiations had been going on, and he thought that those who knew anything of the complications of the interests involved would not be surprised at the settlement having been so long deferred.

Loss Of The "Transit"

Question

I wish, Sir, to put a question to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, of which I have not been able to give him notice, namely, whether the Government are in possession of information respecting the loss of the Transit, other than that which has appeared in the telegraphic despatch.

No, Sir. We have no other information on the subject beyond what the telegraphic message, with some sort of confusion in it, has conveyed.

The 51St Light Infantry—Question

said, he wished to inquire whether any answer had yet been given to the Memorial of the 51st Light Infantry, with reference to the field allowances to the Officers and men whilst serving in the Crimea which they had not yet received. Also, whether any steps had been taken in reference to the petition of the Italian Legion?

said, he was much obliged to the hon, and gallant Member for calling his attention to the fact that no answer had been given to the Memorial of the 51st Regiment, for he was under the impression that the answer had been sent long ago, but on inquiry he found that it was written and sent, but by some accident, for which he could not account, it was addressed to the Officer commanding the 38th Regiment. He had also made inquiry whether the letter had been since sent on to the Commanding Officer of the 51st, but to that inquiry he had as yet received no answer. If it should turn out that it had not been sent on, no time should be lost in forwarding it. The claims of the Italian Legion had been under consideration, but whether the precise petition, to which the hon, and gallant Member alluded, had been considered, he was unable to say.

Telegraphic Communications With Alexandria—Question

Sir, I beg to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government whether the Government have thought of making use of the cable that cannot now be employed for the telegraph across the Atlantic for the purpose of telegraphic communication with Alexandria.

Sir, the cable does not belong to the Government, and it cannot become the property of the Government without a Vote from Parliament to purchase it. And it is sufficient for me to say that in the present state of the Session a proposal to that effect could not be made to Parliament.

Conveyance Of Troops To India By The Overland Route—Question

Will the noble Lord allow me to ask him whether the Pasha of Egypt has authorised the transference of British Troops across the Isthmus of Suez, and whether Her Majesty's Government intend to avail themselves of such permission?

No particular communications have as yet passed between the Pasha of Egypt and Her Majesty's Government on the subject. But the House is well aware that during the Crimean war, when it was thought desirable that such a route should be open for our troops, an application was made to the Pasha, and no objection was offered by him to the arrangement; on the contrary, every possible facility was afforded for carrying it into effect. Nevertheless, the passage of our Troops by that route was attended with considerable inconvenience, difficulty, and expense.

Kensington Barracks—Question

said, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of War, whether there is any intention of removing the Cavalry Barracks at the Kensington Gate of Hyde Park?

said, that it was the intention of Government to remove the Cavalry Barracks from Kensington Gate as soon as a proper substitute could be provided for them, and that such a substitute was now in the course of erection.

Coroners—Question

said, he had intended to have given notice of a Motion, "That the Minutes of the Evidence taken in 1851 by the Select Committee appointed to consider the state of the law and practice as regards the taking of Inquisitions in cases of Death, and the appointment, duties, and remuneration of the Officers employed therein, be laid before this House." That Committee had not reported, because its labours had been brought suddenly to a close by the termination of the Session, and they recommended that the inquiry should be renewed at some future time. His attention had been attracted to the subject by the recent interference of the Magistrates of Yorkshire with the office of Coroner, which he thought rendered it desirable that the inquiry should be renewed in the ensuing Session. As the evidence taken before the Committee of 1851 was in the library, he had thought it might be convenient that it should be printed. Perhaps, however, the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) might be of opinion that it would be better to reappoint the Committee and continue the inquiry, and instead of putting the Motion on the paper, he would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would object to the reappointment of the Committee in the ensuing Session?

said, he thought it highly desirable that a Committee should be appointed to pursue the inquiriy which the Committee of 1851 had commenced. As the evidence of that Committee was incomplete and ex parte, there might be objections to printing it, but it might be laid before the Committee appointed nest Session.

Russian Expedition To Circassia

Question

said, he would beg to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government whether Her Majesty's Government have received any information in confirmation, or otherwise, of a Report, that on the 7th July last the Russian Government, notwithstanding a clause in the Treaty of Paris, had sent a hostile expedition across the Black Sea to the coast of Circassia?

said, that his noble Friend must be aware that the effect of the clause to which be had referred in the Treaty of Paris was, that the Black Sea should be neutral, with the exception that Russia and Turkey should be allowed a certain number of vessels for the purpose of police service on the coast. The other powers were to have two vessels each, in order to see that the regulations with regard to the mouths of the Danube were duly observed. Now, the eastern shore of the Black Sea—the coast of Circassia— was ceded to Russia by Turkey by the treaty of Adrianople. The treaty of Adrianople had also ceded to Russia certain ports by name upon the sea coast, including those he was about to mention. The Russians were still engaged in hostilities with the Circassian tribes upon the northern side of that coast, and Her Majesty's Government had heard that some of the cruisers which it was found necessary to maintain in that sea had taken measures to co-operate with the hostilities that were then being carried on against Circassia, and that the Russians were in possession of Ghelendjik, Soukhum Kale, and Redoubt Kale. But there was no reason to apprehend that Russia had taken any steps which would amount to a violation of the stipulations of the Treaty of Paris.

House adjourned at a quarter before Four o'clock.