said, he would beg to ask, Whether any changes have been made in the salaries of the Clerks of the Customs House; and, if so, whether there is any objection to state the nature of them, and whether the changes would extend to the outdoor Clerks?

said, in reply, that there were about 600 clerks in the London Customs, and several memorials having been addressed to the Treasury, the case of each had been very carefully inquired into by himself, the Chairman of the Board of Customs, and the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue. A new scale of salaries was to be substituted for the one now in force, and would be seen in the Estimates for the Revenue Department. He might say in general terms that there were in the warehousing department of the Customs 270 junior clerks and officers. The former were now divided into six classes, with salaries commencing at £75 a year, and rising by £5 a year to £120, and their maximum was £260. It was proposed in future to divide them into three classes, rising by £10 a year after the first two years from a minimum of £80 to a maximum of £300. The principal clerks would rise to £350, instead of £300. The controllers and assistant controllers would begin at £360, instead of £320, and would rise to £500, instead of £450 a year. In the Inspector General's and Examiner's Offices there were about 220 junior clerks and chief clerks. The former now began with £75, and only rose by £5 to £170. He proposed to divide them also into three classes, and apply the same arrangement to them as to the clerks in the warehousing department. A main feature of the scheme would be very advantageous to the public service generally, for it was proposed to substitute for a large number of the junior clerks a class who were to be called writers, who would be paid daily or weekly, and who would not be considered in the same station as the gentlemen who were popularly called clerks in the public offices. That plan had already been adopted with great success at the Admiralty, and it was found greatly to increase the flow of promotion. With regard to the outports, he proposed to examine the question with the same minuteness as in London. He had already gone through the Liverpool Custom House, and he hoped during the next month to go through the whole department of the Customs at the outports. There were about 250 or 300 clerks at these outports, He proposed to move for a Copy of the Treasury Minute which, with the Estimates, would give the House all the information it required.

said, he wished to ask whether there would be any Minute as to the status of the body of writers?

said, that the Treasury Minute would explain it, but there were details as to increase in wages and superannuation which had not been definitely fixed.

said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the statement in the newspapers of a telegram which has been received with unusual celerity from Calcutta, announcing the restoration of the guns taken in the expedition to Bhootan, may be considered authentic; and, if so, whether, the guns being restored, and the last stipulation of the Treaty made with the Government of India being thus performed, it may not be considered that all prospect of an expedition into Bhootan is now at an end?

, in reply, said, he was not prepared to answer his hon. Friend's Question without notice. He had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the telegram; and, if so, as far as his information went, there would be a conclusion of the question to which his hon. Friend referred.

said, it was not his intention to offer any objection to the introduction of the Bill; but he must suppose that his hon. Friend would take proper care so to arrange the measure as to make it accord with the rules of the House when he did introduce it. The Bill of last Session had met with greater favour with Colonial Governors than his hon. Friend was aware of. He could not admit that it had been entirely inoperative, because it appeared from the papers which had just been laid on the table that seven Colonial Governors had already received well-merited pensions, so that instead of the measure being considered valueless it had been properly appreciated. He thought it would be better to postpone the consideration of the provisions of the Bill of his hon. Friend till the House had had an opportunity of seeing it. His hon. Friend understood the great difficulty everybody had to encounter with a Bill of this kind, and he could not hold out any encouragement that Her Ma- jesty's Government, who had given much consideration to the subject, were prepared to depart from the arrangement made during the last Session of Parliament.

said, he should not be justified in troubling the House with many observations, because statements had already been made in the House bearing on the conclusion at which he wished to arrive. But he felt it necessary to make a few remarks in order to prevent any misapprehension respecting the motives and objects which he had in view. It was easy to suggest a theory for getting rid of all inconveniences which annoyed the inhabitants of the metropolis, but when the subject was considered practically it was beset with considerable difficulties—not the least of which was the immense magnitude of the undertaking. They had to deal with an area larger than that of any other city—some 70,000 acres, with a population approaching 3,000,000, occupying 360,000 houses. The value of the property at stake could only be measured by its rateable value, which amounted to £13,000,000. The real annual value was probably not less than £15,000,000. It was not easy to grapple with such a state of things, but the difficulty was increased when it was known that for 200 years the metropolis had been allowed to grow up and govern itself in the manner which accorded most with the views of the various local bodies. The result was a most extraordinary chaos. Everything connected with local government had degenerated into abuse. The interests of the community were sacrificed for the benefit of private individuals. It was in this state of things that Lord Llanover undertook the task of establishing municipal institutions for the metropolis. The House must be struck with the great ability he manifested. It was open to Parliament at that time either to let the metropolis be governed Imperially and to set up prefects, after the manner of Paris and other continental cities, or to establish bodies more in accordance with our own Constitution and the municipal institutions of the country. The latter course was adopted. Parliament determined to establish a municipality adapted as far as possible to the peculiar circumstances of the metropolis. He did not think the House would be disposed to recede from the conclusion at which it then arrived. But Lord Llanover, contemplating the difficulties of his position, was compelled to show some deference to opposite opinions, and arrived at conclusions in the nature of a compromise. Instead of giving full scope to municipal institutions he passed a measure containing many peculiar qualifications, and amongst others he reserved to the Government the power of controlling the chief municipal body. By taking that course the worst of all possible systems was established—that of divided responsibility. In the first effort made by the Board the Government attempted to interfere, a collision between the Government and the local authorities ensued, and the result showed the disastrous consequences arising from such a state of things. Lord Llanover was led by speculative individuals into proposing a draining scheme, the estimated cost of which was from £7,000,000 to £11,000,000. The Metropolitan Board, taking a common-sense view of the matter, were satisfied with a scheme, the estimated cost of which was about £3,000,000. The right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), who was then in office, adopted the wise course of declining to interfere in the municipal affairs of the metropolis. He committed the whole affair to the responsibility of the Metropolitan Board, and repealed those portions of the Act which established any control over their proceedings. The Board had carried out their plan at a cost, owing to the rise in prices, greater than that originally proposed, but at about one-third of the cost of the speculative scheme suggested by the Government. Since the adoption of that scheme by the Metropolitan Board an instance of divided administration had been seen in the setting up by the Government of a scheme of embankment. Instead of adhering to the wise policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, a noble Lord present on the Opposition side of the House (Lord John Manners) again interfered, and proposed a scheme for the embankment of the Thames. It was a most ill-considered scheme, in which grave errors existed. The Government, unfortunately, had not to pay the money required from the public revenue, but from local resources. Government did not seem to be impressed with a due sense of the responsibility connected with the undertaking. At the time he (Mr. Ayrton) pointed it out as an ill-considered plan, that streets had been laid out which never could be made, that certain bargains had been made with influential noblemen, and that these bargains would be set out as schemes which had been sanctioned by Parliament, and that it would be impossible to carry out the plan—and yesterday he was sorry to say he had seen all his predictions fulfilled. The Metropolitan Board, not being allowed to proceed, had no responsibility. They accepted the measure of the Government, causing an absolute loss to the metropolis which could only be measured by hundreds of thousands of pounds. He hoped this result would warn the Government against making themselves responsible for local self-government. However much individuals might depreciate the position of those who undertook the task of local self-government, yet in the end they were found to be people of common sense and sound judgment, and better able to deal with the subject than some persons who were intrusted with the dignity of Ministers of State. In submitting his Motion to the House he had no intention of departing from the principle of local government recognized by it at first, and afterwards sanctioned by the Administration of Lord Derby. Undoubtedly the task set the municipality was one of great and increasing magnitude and difficulty. No sooner was a great municipal body established than wants, which had been long neglected, were brought under the consideration of the House. It found that the easiest mode of dealing with them was to hand them over to the Metropolitan Board. From Session to Session grave duties and serious responsibilities had been imposed upon the board. Therefore, it was that the Metropolitan Board and the subordinate boards, although well suited to the duties first imposed on them, were not suited to many of the duties which they now had to discharge. He felt this difficulty so much, that five years ago he moved the appointment of a Select Committee, which investigated many questions of great importance, but nevertheless its labours came to a close at the end of the Session. He did not complain of the result of the labours of that Committee. On the contrary, it disposed of some important matters, and the metropolis derived great benefit from its labours, not the least of which was to place on the Metropolitan Board and the local boards the duty of protecting the inhabitants from railway invasion, instead of throwing that responsibility on individuals. He would not enter into any minute examination of the recommendations of that Committee, or the extent to which those recommendations had been carried out. But the growing extent of the duties of the Metropolitan Board rendered it necessary to take up the subject again, in order to arrive at some satisfactory conclusion with respect to the improvement necessary to enable them to perform the duties devolving upon them. That would be the first object of the Committee. The next object would be to inquire into the taxation of the metropolis, and that inquiry would not be prosecuted without difficulty. It was easy for a board to improve the metropolis provided they had an unlimited supply of funds; but the people of this metropolis were unwilling to be taxed for the gratification or caprice of other persons, and there was a steady resistance to the attempts to impose large sums in the shape of local taxation. The Metropolitan Board, wherever it was charged with any dereliction of duty, or want of zeal in carrying out improvements, invariably stated that they had not sufficient resources at their command, and that the local taxation was so extremely heavy that it had reached its utmost limit. That statement was to a considerable extent correct. The total amount of local taxation in the metropolis amounted to upwards of £2,500,000. That was no inconsiderable sum, but if it were thought necessary to gratify the desires of some hon. Members and of some scientific gentlemen out of the House, especially those who dedicated themselves to the cultivation of art, it was impossible to say to what extent local taxation would be necessary. The taxation of the metropolis was twofold—direct and indirect. Nothing could be more inconvenient, or in the end more disastrous, than to allow local boards to raise money by indirect taxation, because by that means they obtained large resources without making the expenditure at once and directly felt by the community. The advantage of direct taxation in local government, on the contrary, was immense, because the ratepayers were thus made alive to the expenditure, and were induced to look after their own interest. The direct taxation of the metropolis was upwards of £2,000,000. The indirect was comparatively small, but it was of a most pernicious character, and entirely at variance with the principles laid down with respect to the general taxation of the country. A few years ago a treaty was entered into not to levy a duty on coals exported to France, and yet a duty was levied on coals imported into London, and used for all the manufacturing industry of the metropolis. It was impossible to conceive a state of things more anomalous or ridiculous. If there was an evil in indirect taxation, it was still worse to anticipate it by loans, and make them chargeable not only on the year, but to mortgage them for many years to come, thus throwing the burdens on the future. That was a state of things which the House ought not to sanction without some cogent necessity. It became, therefore, the duty of Parliament, when a demand was made by the Metropolitan Board for increased revenue by additional taxation, to inquire into its proceedings, its necessities, and its true resources. It was necessary to examine the question of taxation, and to see whether it was levied in a manner consistent with justice. If the result should be that indirect taxation could not be upheld, then the resources necessary must be raised by some other mode. He did not think it necessary to enter into the details of the question, as he should thereby be anticipating the purpose he wished to accomplish by the appointment of the Committee. Suffice it to say, that as the Metropolitan Board was pressing forward improvement Bills, the Committee might feel it their duty at once to enter into an investigation of the means by which those improvements might be carried into effect, and he trusted that its labours would lead to the solution of a question of considerable difficulty. Having given a sufficient explanation of the objects which he had in view, he would abstain from touching on any of those topics of irritation which were sometimes introduced. He did not think any good could result from abusing classes or individuals, and be hoped the hon. Members would believe that the classes who undertook the duty of managing the affairs of the metropolis were entitled to as much consideration and respect as the class who happened to sit in that House. He made this remark because he had recently heard observations which he thought ought not to have been made, and he thought when anybody undertook to attack vestrymen they should know something about their capacity and their qualification. He was all the more surprised that anyone should decry such a class after delivering a speech which was the reproduction of a pamphlet written by a vestryman, scarcely adding a single observation of his own. The hon. and learned Member concluded by moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the Local Government and Local Taxation of the Metropolis.

said, that he seconded the Motion. No one could doubt the Metropolitan Board had effected many important works, but they were now before Parliament for three, all of great value to the public—namely—1st, the approaches to the Thames Embankment; 2nd, the Park Lane improvement; and 3rd, the continuation of the Thames Embankment, and consequently the great road to Chelsea. These were undoubted necessities. But the difficulty the Metropolitan Board had to contend with was that morally, although not legally, the taxation which fell upon the occupiers was so heavy that it could be carried no further. For instance, in Chelsea a £20 house was subject to a rating of £5. It had been suggested that the coal tax should be continued, or, again, that an improvement rate should be imposed; but, be that as it might, some resources must he found beyond the present rates, or further improvements in the metropolis must be suspended. He trusted the appointment of the Committee would not have the effect of delaying the measures which the Board thought necessary to meet the emergency of the case. The justice of a rate was, however, to be measured by its uniformity; and he should like, while upon that subject, to refer to some Returns with regard to metropolitan assessment for 1864 which had been moved for by the hon. Member for Lambeth. From those Returns he found that some most extraordinary inconsistencies prevailed. In Chelsea, for instance, with which he was best acquainted, he found the state of things to be this that under Schedule A the return of the value of property, land and houses, was £290,000 per annum, while the police rate was £240,000, the county rate £234,000, and the poor rate £229,000. Taking the great parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, he found the property was rated under the property tax under Schedule A at £1,365,000; the police rate being £964,000, the county rate £943,000, and the poor rate £920,000. The proportion in these two instances, therefore, was very much the same. He next came to the great inconsistencies of the system. In St. Pancras the return under Schedule A gave the sum of £3,818,804; the police rate being only £864,000—not much more than one-fourth—the county rate £800,000, and the poor rate £820,000: the disproportion here was inconceivable and unaccountable. Again, in the parish of Paddington he found the rating under Schedule A to be £2,400,000; the county rate was only £526,000, the police rate was £588,000, and the poor rate £607,000, or not much more than 25 per cent upon the income tax. In the City of London the inconsistencies were not so great, but they were exceedingly great even there, and showed the necessity for some inquiry. With regard to the constitution of the Metropolitan Board, the system was devised by Lord Llanover; it had worked well, and it had been in existence long enough to furnish a reasonable amount of experience. Both the vestries and the Metropolitan Board of Works would welcome inquiry. The Board stood well for what it had done. Although composed of men in a comparatively humble position of life, it had displayed ability in the conduct of business, and it had carried out great works to the satisfaction of the public and of the House of Commons. He supported the Motion for inquiry, thinking that it would be useful, and he hoped that the inquiry would be specially directed to matters that bore upon such uniformity of rating so that each person might bear his fair share of the burdens of the State.

said, he had ventured on Monday to remark that no metropolitan Member could touch this subject without danger of either offending his constituents or sacrificing his conscience. He presumed that the fear of offending his constituents had led the hon. Member to adopt a course which good taste might have induced him to disapprove. In disregard of a rule of debate, the hon. Member had quoted his speech of last night, and alluded to himself, although not byname, telling him that he was not to abuse individuals. The hon. Member had, however, shown how he could be praise certain individuals; his enemies might say indeed that he had fawned and cringed to them; the hon. Member had also seized every opportunity of throwing dirt upon the leaders of his own party. After a long and rambling disquisition, consisting of argument without point, and a labyrinth of topics without any definite object, the hon. Member had drawn the conclusion that the House ought to be warned against allowing the Government to have anything to do with the management of the metropolis and the constitution of the Metropolitan Board of Works. He praised the Opposition side of the House, and cast dirt upon the Ministerial side, in a manner which might be expected from an individual who had not attained the object he desired, and who was smarting bitterly under some recent disappointment. The hon. Member spoke as the representative and champion of metropolitan vestrymen. If he had defended merely those of the Tower Hamlets, the defence might have been accepted as an electioneering speech, such as they all sometimes indulged in; but he had said not a word about them. He travelled to St. Pancras, in the constituency of Marylebone, and confined himself to an apology for them: they being the only individuals to whom he (Lord Robert Montagu) had alluded. His (Lord Robert Montagu's) own case rested on the letter of Dr. Horace Jeaffreson, which had appeared in The Times, exposing the procedure, conduct, and language of London vestrymen. The hon. Member would find that he had no rival in the House who would desire to ingratiate himself with the vestrymen and appear as their proper and duly qualified representative. Any one who read of the way in which they hindered a sanitary officer from removing certain fever dens which had scattered death far and wide would not think the hon. Member's speech had added a new laurel to his brow. His speech of yesterday, the hon. Member said, was a plagiarism from a pamphlet by a vestryman. He had seen one pamphlet from which he had copied a few figures, and several omissions were supplied to him at the offices of the Metropolitan Board, where he was furnished with a complete list of metropolitan jurisdictions. But no other pamphlet or production on the subject had fallen in his way. He knew it would be useless to appeal to the Home Secretary, who had already promised to support the Motion. The hon. Member had said that Lord Llanover, backed up by a Commission on which Sir George Lewis sat, and by a powerful Government, was forced into a compromise. But was the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets backed up by a Government on which he had attempted to cast dirt. Was he supported by a Commission? Would he not, too, be forced into a compromise which might perhaps be still more ignoble? The hon. Member had also said that Lord Llanover, who was a hard working official, was led away by speculative individuals; and had not the hon. Member himself in the last Parliament been led away by speculative individuals, particularly in reference to Metropolitan Bills? [Mr. AYRTON: What Bills?] Against the Sewage Bill for instance. If the Committee which had investigated this subject five years ago and had acquired much information was unable to agree upon any measure, what reason was there for supposing that a Committee given to the hon. Member now would be more successful? Was not the want of success of a former Committee an argument against appointing a new one, particularly as local jurisdictions had become more important than they were formerly, and more able to resist a searching inquiry? Not content with grappling with a difficulty which was proved to be insurmountable before the hon. Member had complicated it by adding the question of direct or indirect taxation, which alone would be enough for any Committee of ordinary men. The ordinary rule in these cases was to appoint a Committee to ascertain facts; and when these had become known then a Royal Commission was generally appointed to devise a measure which would meet an acknowledged difficulty. Thus there had been Committees and Commissions upon Poor Law and Rivers' pollution. Last year, moreover, the Secretary of State said it was not necessary to appoint a Commission upon this subject, because the House had long been cognizant of the facts, and yet the right hon. Gentleman assented now to the appointment of a Committee to acquire this knowledge. The truth was the right hon. Baronet desired to postpone the evil day; he was afraid, and he therefore displayed the hesitation which he lately did in the question of the cattle plague. The proper course would be to appoint a Commission who could make available the information already obtained.

said, it was not his intention to enter into the matters at issue between the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets and the noble Lord. He only wished, as one of the representatives of the City, to say, as the City authorities were generally supposed to be at issue with the Metropolitan Board of Works, that they would interpose no difficulty in the examination of any matter having reference to the government or local taxation of the metropolis, but would be ready to afford the Committee all the assistance in their power.

said, that the feeling of the House seemed to be in favour of the contemplated inquiry. He regretted that personal matters had been introduced in the debate, but he thought that a sufficient case had been made out for inquiry by a Committee. The noble Lord seemed to differ from the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets only in this, that he thought a Commission would be better than a Committee. But it appeared to him that a Committee of the House of Commons was very competent to deal with this question, particularly when they took into consideration that Members from different parts of the metropolis might be very useful in the course of the inquiry, There was only one other observation which he wished to make, and it was with regard to the Bills promoted by the Metropolitan Board of Works. He understood the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite) to say that it was desirable to interpose as little delay as possible in the prosecution of those Bills, and that, therefore, the inquiries of the Committee might be directed in the first place to the question of taxation without waiting for the general Report to say by what funds those improvements might be carried out. It was very desirable to interpose no unnecessary delay in the way of those Bills, and with that understanding the Government were ready to assent to the proposition of the hon. Gentleman.

said, he would not have risen but for certain observations which he had heard with some apprehension, and coming from the quarter they did, that apprehension was by no means diminished. He referred to what had fallen on the question of taxation from the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite), who held a responsible position in that House. Now, he felt it his duty not to let this matter go further without at once expressing a very earnest hope that neither a Committee of that House, nor that House collectively, would approve what the remarks of the hon. Member led him to think the Metropolitan Board of Works were hankering after— namely, a continuance of the coal tax for metropolitan improvements. The hon. Member pointed out that the limits of the ordinary taxation of occupiers in the metropolis had been almost exceeded—that it had got to a point beyond which it would not be safe or politic to advance. Now he, as a ratepayer of the metropolis, fully endorsed that statement. Those metropolitan improvements might be very useful and valuable to certain classes, but they were of no benefit whatever to others. They might benefit those who had great shops, and whose traffic filled our streets—they might benefit the wealthier classes. But it behoved the House to remember that if they sanctioned this unnecessary interference with the homes and habits of the poor, they should be very cautious not to touch their pockets in doing so. The increase of the coal tax had not unfrequently been made a pretext by the retail dealer for an advance in the price of this necessary article, and that in a degree far more than commensurate with the amount of the duty. Coal, as fuel, in the metropolis was an absolute necessary of life, and there was no impost to which he understood there was a greater objection, because it was in fact an "Octroi" duty levied in its worst form. He might be supposed to speak in the interests of the coal producer, but he was quite alive to also those of the consumer. He was quite ready to submit to the House of Commons that this tax ought to have expired already, but it had been mortgaged for the benefit of the metropolis, and he hoped that this mortgage would not be allowed to continue beyond its present limits.

said, he entirely agreed with every word which had been said in condemnation of the coal tax. It pressed very heavily on every consumer in the metropolis, but particularly on the poorer classes. They were all aware that I the moment a tax was put upon any article of consumption the retail price rose more in proportion, and this was especially true of the coal tax, which he trusted no attempt would be made to perpetuate. With regard to the Committee moved for by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, it was in his opinion calculated to do a great deal of good, and if its attention was directed to the taxation of the metropolis it might be found that those who had the strongest interest in metropolitan improvement were in reality most free from taxation. In point of fact the taxation fell principally upon the occupiers of the metropolis, while the freeholders, who derived immense revenues from their property, scarcely paid anything. That was a matter which ought to be looked to. Every improvement benefited to an enormous extent the owner of the property, and he ought, therefore, to pay in proportion. There was a strong feeling in the metropolis that the duty upon hackney carriages, which did so much injury to the streets and created a necessity for such extensive repairs, ought to be applied to the improvement of the metropolis, instead of being diverted into the Imperial Exchequer. He would make no suggestion on that point, but the general feeling was as he had said. The hon. Member for Bath had referred to the extraordinary discrepancy between the rating under Schedule A of the parish of St. Pancras, amounting to £3,000,000, and that of the wealthy parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, which was not above a million. But the explanation of that was to be found in the fact that the three great railway termini and canals, all subject to heavy rating, existed in St. Pancras. The same observation would apply to Paddington, where the Great Western had its terminus and the Metropolitan had a station, and where canals also existed. This fully accounted for the apparent disparity.

said, with regard to the general questions before the House, there were few which required more careful inquiry than the local management and general taxation of the metropolis. But there was another subject upon which he wished to say a few words, and that was with regard to the comforts of the poorer classes. One would have imagined from what had passed that up to the present Session no one had ever taken into consideration how public improvements, whether in the shape of railways or others, might affect the working classes of this city. Now, it was only due to Parliament to say that a Standing Order—No. 91, made in 1865—of the House of Lords required that—

"In the case of any Bill for making any works requiring compulsory powers for taking houses occupied wholly or partially by tenants or lodgers, the promoters should be obliged to deposit in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments by a certain day a statement of the number, description, and situation of such houses, the number of persons to be displaced, and whether any or what provisions were made in the Bill to remedy the evils of such displacement."

He would be extremely sorry to say anything that would appear to depreciate the efforts made in that House by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. T. Hughes); but he, at the same time, thought it only fair to read the Standing Order; and, by so doing, show that the attempt to protect the rights of the poor was first made by the other House. He hoped that the House of Commons would adopt a provision similar to that unanimously adopted by the House of Lords, and that in any Bills introduced by the Metropolitan Board of Works care would be taken to insert clauses to make some provision for the poor deprived of their dwellings for the purpose of making improvements.

said, he was sure that when this subject was before the House yesterday, the noble Lord who had just sat down was not aware of the existence of the Standing Order which he had read. For his own part he considered that Standing Order to be a very desirable one, and he hoped that it would be adopted by the House. Until the noble Lord read the Standing Order he did not know that any definite action had been taken in the matter, although he was aware that much discussion had taken place, and that during the course of last Session Lord Derby had frequently urged on the House of Lords in the strongest terms the necessity of protecting the poor by preventing their dwellings being destroyed by railway companies. Improvements must be made, but the House should take care that as little harm as possible should be done to the working classes. The question of providing proper dwelling houses for poor persons whose residences had been destroyed by railway companies was one of the greatest difficulty, for the inhabitants of many of the metropolitan parishes objected, in the strongest terms, to dwellings for the labouring classes being built within the limits of their parishes. They did this because they feared that if the labouring classes settled in their parish some of them would finally become chargeable to the parish rates. This difficulty would be obviated if a scheme which he and the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had often advocated in that House was adopted—namely, the equalization of poor rates throughout the metropolis. If that system was adopted, the rate would not press too heavily on any parish; if, for instance, at present there was to be a uniform rate in all the metropolitan parishes it would amount only to 1s. 6d. in the pound. At present the richest parishes were the lightest taxed, the inhabitants of the parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, for instance, only paying a rate of 6d. or 7d. in the pound. That would be raised, but the equalized rate would be no burden. He thought that it was not fair to expect the working classes to live together in suburban villages; like the rest of the world, they ought to be allowed to live where they wished themselves. If an equal rate throughout the whole area were adopted there would be no longer any disposition to discountenance the erection of dwellings for the working men in any part of the metropolis. Such dwellings should be built where the necessity for them arose, and the working men would not be sent out to suburban places, perpetuating the highly objectionable practice of placing together persons all of one class.

said, that up to this time the Standing Order which had been adopted by the Lords had had no practical results, save the introduction of two clauses into three Railway Bills compelling the companies to run cheap trains for the benefit of the labouring classes. He hoped that if the House of Commons adopted a Standing Order, intended to prevent the destruction of houses of the poor by railway companies, they would not adopt one similar to that passed by the House of Lords. If they did, they would find that their Standing Order would prove almost entirely useless for the purpose intended. With respect to the erection of dwellings in the neighbourhood of those pulled down the Standing Order had no effect whatever. He hoped that if the House passed a Standing Order on the subject it would be of a more stringent character than that which had been adopted in the Upper House.

said, he regretted to hear the hon. Member for Northumberland (Mr. Liddell), and the hon. Member for Marylebone, express a hope that the Committee which had been consented to by Her Majesty's Government would pass by a certain point of taxation which would be brought before them. The question of metropolitan taxation was of the greatest importance, and he considered that the Committee ought to inquire into every possible source of local rating, in order that they might thus, if it be possible, discover some means of reducing the present high rate of taxation. He hoped that the Committee would fully inquire into these matters, and would do everything in their power to place the metropolitan taxation in a more satisfactory position than it now occupied, making the expenditure press as lightly as possible on the poorer ratepayers.

said, in reference to what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu), that the noble Lord seemed to imagine that he imputed blame to Lord Llanover. He did nothing of the kind. On the contrary, he had spoken with the greatest respect of the noble Lord, and had only regretted that he was compelled by the difficulties which beset him to undertake a course of which he was sure his Lordship did not himself approve. All he had done was to show that with a divided administration the work had not gone on satisfactorily. He had deprecated the introduction of any personalities into the debate, and he had asked hon. Members not to abuse the vestries, and the result of his doing so was that the noble Lord abused him instead. The value of abuse always depended on the weight generally attached to the opinion of the person who used it, and he did not therefore much mind the language that had been used towards him by the noble Lord. Laudari a laudatis was an old maxim, and he supposed that the reverse also held good. The noble Lord had made against him one very serious charge. He had charged him with having used his Parliamentary influence to obtain the passing through the House of a Bill connected with the sewage of the metropolis. Now, there never was made against any man a more unfounded charge, and there was no one who ought to know that fact better than the noble Lord himself. So far from assisting in passing the Bill, he had opposed the concessions made to the promoters as injurious to the public interests. When the Bill was before Committee he then urged that the concessions that had been made to the promoters ought not to have been made. He was defeated in Committee, and he then brought the matter before the House, and succeeded in having the decision of the Committee reversed and the concessions withheld. Such were the simple facts of the case, and yet the noble Lord charged him with endeavouring to get passed a Bill the most important concessions in which he had, in the interest of the public, most strenuously op-posed. He certainly had prevented the noble Lord from sitting upon that Committee, and he was sure that was not prejudicial to the interests of any one. Having set right the only fact alluded to by the noble Lord, the House could now understand what the noble Lord's explanations and opinions were worth; but for his part he did not think them worth notice.

said, he rose to ask the House to consent to the appointment of a Select Committee for the purpose of inquiring into a subject of great and general interest among the commercial classes—namely, the practical working of the present systems of telegraphic and postal communications between this country and the East Indies. He would have been glad if the concurrence of the Government had enabled him to make the Motion as an unopposed one; but he thought it no slight thing to ask the House to lend the weight of its authority to an inquiry of this nature at any period, and especially at the present moment, when so many Members were called on to sacrifice their time in attendance on Election Committees and in the disposal of a very large amount of Private Bill business. Among the many remarkable circumstances which characterized the present day, none was more remarkable than the marvellous development of the commerce of this country during the last few years. This result had been ascribed to various circumstances—to the discovery of gold, to free trade, and other causes; but, in his opinion, nothing could be said to have more led to the promotion of the commerce of this country than the application of the science of the country to extend communication with foreign nations by means of steam navigation and the electric telegraph. Without entering on a disquisition more suitable for a lecture-room than for the floor of the House of Commons, he would content himself with adverting to a few facts connected with commerce, for the purpose of showing the great interest which the trade of this country with the East Indies had in the subject. That trade formed an important part of the whole trade of this country. In 1864, the last year for which we have official accounts in a complete form, the commodities imported into this country amounted in value to £275,000,000, and the commodities exported to £212,500,000. Of the goods imported India supplied no less than 20 per cent, and Ceylon, Singapore, China, Japan, Australia, and the Mauritius supplied II or 12 per cent in addition; so that that portion of the world which was the subject of his Motion supplied no less than one-third of the whole of the imports. In the case of exports, out of the total of 212½ millions those countries took no less than forty-two millions sterling. It might also he important to see what was the description of the goods imported. Of the goods imported from those countries, there had been received no less than £38,000,000 in value of cotton, more than £9,000,000 of various other goods, which entered into the manufacturing industry of this country, and £2,500,000 of articles of food, rice, sugar, tea, coffee, &c. The proposition he submitted to the House was that it was essential not only to maintain the present means of communication between this country and the East Indies, but to push to the utmost the advantages which telegraphic communication afforded. Our trade was now carried on in a manner very different to that which formerly prevailed. The telegraph had almost superseded the post, which had become subsidiary and ancillary to the telegraph, and no important transactions were entered into which were not now communicated by telegraph. In relation to the trade with India it was the custom when goods were shipped for telegraphic information to be sent of that fact. On the receipt of the bill of Jading, if the market were favourable, the goods were sold while on their way to their destination, and by that means the shipper was relieved from a great part of the risk, and was therefore content to receive less than he otherwise would accept, and as the element of risk entered largely into the cost, the public were enabled to obtain the goods at a reduced price. That was one of the advantages derived from telegraphic communication but certainty and rapidity in the delivery of the message were absolutely requisite. The information should be correct and of recent date; but he regretted to say that at present the telegraphic messages between this country and India were most incorrectly rendered. Since the period when he gave notice of his Motion he had received hundreds of letters complaining of the length of time occupied, with the exception of within the last few days, in the transmission of the messages, and of the incorrect manner in which (hey were rendered. He would state a few facts, which would show also in what a remarkably absurd manner the business of the country was treated by the companies to which we confided these telegraphic messages. A mercantile house in Liverpool sent a message in September last to India, as follows:—"Contract for 1,000 bales of cotton"—of a particular description, the value of which was about £20 a bale, and thus the transaction represented a sum of £20,000. The message received in India was "Contract for 21,000 bales," and thus, instead of £20,000, the amount involved was £400,000 more than that sum. Another order sent was, "Buy 500 bales at 12d." —meaning, of course, that the highest limit at which the agent was to buy was 12d. The message delivered was, "Buy 500 bales at 20d.," making a very considerable difference in the price. Indeed, it was well known in the City that the cause of the failure of a mercantile house which took place about sixteen months ago was a telegraphic blunder of this kind. An order was sent to Egypt to buy 500 bales of cotton, and, pursuant to the message as delivered, 5,000 bales were bought, and the house was unable to meet the sum due upon this large purchase. He had been particularly requested to mention other cases which had been forwarded to him from the Chamber of Commerce at Madras, involving similar mistakes. The most ridiculous of all the mistakes in the translation of messages was one that happened to himself during the time the messages were forwarded by way of Italy. He had occasion to send a message to a gentleman in India to the effect that the news from America was to the 10th of the month, and that cotton was in favour of holders. The translation was —"News from America to the 10th—a savour of soldiers." Of course his correspondent did not know what it meant. What our trade required was rapidity and accuracy in telegraphic communication with India. He did not speak, boastfully, but he might state that he himself spent £3,000 a year in sending telegraphic messages to India, the greater part of which he recovered from his correspondents, and this amount was probably less than that paid by many others. He might send a message either through the office of the Electric Telegraph Company or that of the Submarine Company. If he sent it by the former, the message was forwarded to Berlin or Frankfort, thence to Vienna, Belgrade, Constantinople, to the head of the Persian Gulf and to Kurrachee, whence it was distributed throughout India by the internal telegraphic system of India. This telegram passed through seven different administrations. If he sent the message by the Submarine Company it went first to Paris, then through the Austro-German union as in the other case, or by way of Italy through Macedonia, Thessaly, and so on to India. The worst of it was that it was impossible to fix these blunders upon any one. Messages sent from this country to India had to pass through Turkey. The mistakes did not occur in London, nor in Germany, or France, but in Turkey. It was impossible to look for any change for the better so long as messages were forwarded through Turkey, by persons ignorant of the English language, and apathetic as to our customs and wishes. As soon as the message got into the Turkish administration it became subject to the treatment he had described. Many representations had been addressed to the Turkish Government in favour of the appointment of English signallers, but no sooner was anything proposed for the benefit of England than France and Russia became jealous and interposed to prevent it. He had no doubt that if France or Russia asked for anything, England would be equally jealous, and he was assured that it was hopeless to expect any improvement as long as these national jealousies existed. A petition had been presented the other day by the hon. Member for Glasgow from the Bombay Chamber of Commerce, which showed that the telegraphic communication with India had an enormous substratum of business. It was stated that during the seven months from May to November, 1865, there had been 16,462 messages passed to and fro on the line between India and England and the Continent of Europe, of which only 82 were Government messages. The sum received for their transmission was about £51,500, being nearly at the rate of £100,000 per annum for the Mekran portion of the line belonging to the Indian Government. The charge for a message of twenty words from this country to India was £5 1s., of which the Submarine Company only received 2s, 6d., and the Electric Telegraph Company 3s. 6d. or 4s., the remainder being absorbed by the other States and systems through which it travelled. On arming at Kurrachee, the port of Scinde, and the most westerly town of India, the messages were distributed to the various places of business in India. Until lately the service there was almost as bad as that in the Turkish dominions, but it was now improved. Some knowing people I went into the country, and affixing an instrument to the wires brought down the messages. They then sent off men on horseback and sold the intelligence. These persons were apprehended and convicted. When the telegraphic communication with India was carried on by way of Egypt and Point de Galle, some two or three messages were always satisfactorily conveyed. Then it was said the wires were out of order, and no more were transmitted, which, of course, gave a great advantage to those whose messages were sent. Some time ago some gentlemen came to him, as Chairman of the East Indian Railway, and asked if he would consent to an arrangement by which a public company should transmit these messages. It was not the business of a railway company to carry telegraphic messages, and the directors signified their willingness to treat with these gentlemen. They agreed to the terms of the directors, but being a line with a Government guarantee, the directors were unable to act without the sanction of the Secretary of State for India. Their application was sent out to India by the Secretary of State, and when it returned they received a communication that their proposition could not be entetrained. The directors inquired the reasons for this refusal, but the Secretary of State very wisely refused to give any. Why should not this company be established in India for the conveyance of messages along the railway system? A railway was the proper course for the telegraph wires to take. The wires were inspected and could he repaired by every passing train, while the wires of the Government system, passing over mountains and over the plains, could only be inspected by persons employed for the purpose. If the Indian Government intended to set up the principle that the carrying of telegraphic messages in India ought to be in the hands of the Government for political purposes, he ventured to say that the proposition which he should make was deserving of the attentive consideration of the House. In this country the whole of the telegraphic system was in the hands of private companies; but in India the Government, as far as he was aware, intended to institute a totally different system. Now, he thought he subject might fairly be discussed in that House, if the Government defended on such a ground their refusal to allow a private company to utilize for the benefit of India the advantages which railways conferred. He attributed the failure of the existing overland system to the fact that the only line of communication passed through Turkey. As long as we were dependent upon that line alone, it would be hopeless to expect that our communication with India could be satisfactorily maintained. A certain company had possessed itself by a lease from this Government of the exclusive use of the Malta and Alexandria wire, and they had also entered into arrangements with the Italian Government, by which they would be granted the use of a wire through Italy with the privilege of employing English signallers. When all the arrangements were completed the company would be able to carry messages to Alexandria without any of the inconveniences which now existed. The Pasha of Egypt was constructing a telegraph on the banks of the Nile, and it would cross to the Red Sea in latitude 19, where a better bottom was to be found than in the upper parts of the Red Sea. This line would then proceed by way of Aden, and the southern coast of Arabia. In fact, there would be a complete and entire line from England to Bombay in the hands of an English company, who would be responsible to the public for any loss arising from their neglect. He had mentioned the progress which had been made in establishing a different system altogether, and he might remark that the company would require no pecuniary assistance from the Government at all. He wished it to be perfectly understood that he was not stating these particulars with the view of serving the interests of this particular company, and that he was not personally interested in the undertaking. He deemed it right to make this remark, because, on a former occasion, when he and Mr. Sotheron Estcourt addressed the House on the subject of telegraphic communication through Asiatic Turkey, the right hon. Gentleman the present Chancellor of the Exchequer took the opportunity of warning the House against Members making use of their position to support undertakings in which they were personally concerned. If this line were constructed, there would be two separate and wholly distinct lines of telegraphic communication between this country and India. Practically, indeed, there would be three lines of communication, because if anything were to go wrong with that part of the new system which had been suggested eastward of Egypt, messages could be forwarded to Alexandria and then be passed along the Turkish line between that place and Diasbekir on the main Turkish line. He thought he had said enough to lead the House to believe that the subject into which he asked them to authorize a Committee to inquire was one deserving of the attention of the Government. He would now make some remarks on the postal communication with India, which rested on the basis of a contract entered into with the Peninsular and Oriental Company in January, 1853, for the conveying of the India mails for fourteen years. Considering the enormous advances which had been made in the science of steam navigation between 1853 and the present time, it was only fair that the public should have the advantage of any improvement in respect to speed and price which had been brought about by any change during that period. There were besides other reasons which rendered it desirable that the relations existing between the Government and the Peninsular and Oriental Company should be inquired into. He was no opponent of the company, which he believed had for many years past rendered good service to the public, but their vessels were not quite up to the requirements of the present day in regard to speed. Then, again, the Peninsular and Oriental Company now had a monopoly of the whole service, and he thought it was desirable that the contract, which was now subject to annual renewal, should terminate a year hence. The Indian railway system, it should be remembered, was approaching completion. In the course of another year the rail between Bombay and Calcutta would be completed, excepting about seventy miles. Then, of course, the whole postal service of India would pass through Bombay by railway, and it would be wholly unnecessary that any postal communication should be maintained between Aden and Calcutta. At present the postal days to India were the 3rd, 12th, 18th, and 27th of the month, without reference to the days of the week on which those dates fall. About a year ago the mercantile community in England connected with India memorialized the Postmaster General for a mail to India on a certain day of each week instead of specified days of the month, it being suggested that Friday was the day which would best suit the convenience of the whole trading community. The traders in India also presented a similar memorial. In reply to those memorials it was stated in that House by the Secretary to the Treasury that the proposed change would be attended with expense, and would necessitate an extra charge of 6d. on each letter, and that those letters which were now charged 10d. through France would be charged 1s. 4d. The mercantile community thought that that suggestion was unreasonable, and declined to accede to it. Thus there were abundant reasons why a Committee should be appointed to inquire both into the telegraphic and postal service of India. In recommending that the contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Company should be remodelled, there was no desire to ask the Government to submit to any additional charge; he was quite content to abide by the language used in the Report of the Commission on Postal Contracts in 1853. The Commission held that Parliamentary grants might be properly made to meet the first outlay required for the opening up of new lines of communication and the encouragement of new methods of conveyance; but afterwards, except where there were important political advantages to be gained, these services ought to be self-supporting, and the cost of continuing them should be borne by the persons who availed themselves of them for commercial or other purposes. In the case of the Indian service there was an amount of receipt in the shape of contributions from the mercantile classes which went far to pay the whole of the cost, and there were also political advantages arising from it, such as those contemplated in the Report of the Commission of 1853, and in consideration of which the State might be prepared to defray a certain portion of the expense of maintaining the communication. From the same Report it appeared that in the year 1852 the India and China postal receipts were estimated at £152,564. That was the result of a very elaborate process of calculation, the particulars for which were furnished in the appendix. In the Report of the Postmaster General for the year 1865 it would be found that the number of letters carried between Great Britain and Ireland and India, China, and Japan was 3,632,000, being a considerable increase over the previous year. It was only fair to assume that the number bad been in- creasing from 1852 to 1865; and if the receipts were upwards of £152,000 in the former year they must amount to a sum considerably in excess of that amount at the present time. If that were so, that service must recoup, if not the whole, at all events a large proportion of the sum total paid for it. Therefore, the whole amount voted for the postal service of the country being £850,000 per annum, and the surmised receipts being some £500,000, those who contributed so largely to the maintenance of the communication with India ought not to be made to pay for other lines of communication which were not so successful, such as those to the West Indies. In the Report of the Commission, it was stated that the postal services should be kept up partly at the expense of those whose correspondence was conveyed by them, and partly by the State, in consideration for the advantages it derived from them. He concurred in that recommendation. The advantages which the State derived from our whole organized system of postal communication were not very insignificant. Take some recent instances in illustration. When it was necessary, in connection with the Trent affair, to send troops to Canada, where would ready means of transport for them have been found if the vessels employed on the North American postal service had not been available? Again, in the case of Jamaica, the other day, great benefit resulted from the fact that they were able immediately to send out Sir Henry Storks to that island by one of the West India mail packets which also brought the first intelligence to the Government. In the case of the Crimean War the French largely availed themselves of our vessels for the transport of troops; and so alive were the French to the importance of having always at command a large number of these steamers that in every quarter of the globe where we were at this moment maintaining a subsidized line of communication they were eagerly coming forward to share in the enterprize. They had established a line to Cochin-China; they had also lines connecting Bordeaux with Brazil and Buenos Ayres, Havre with the United States, and other ports with Mexico and other parts of the world. The French saw that if their merchants profited by that system the State likewise derived immense advantages from it. He was not asking the Government to run a race of competition in that matter with our French neighbours or any other foreign nation; yet, as in the case of the line of com- munication with the East Indies, the receipts from the carriage of letters nearly equalled the whole expense incurred, surely the public might reasonably expect that the service should be maintained on a footing of perfect efficiency. They did not want the Government to go to any great expenditure, but only to place their postal communication between this country and the East Indies in a thoroughly efficient state, and on a sound economical basis. The way in which that should be carried out was, that as Bombay should be held to be the great port of India, there should be a separate contract for the service between this country and that port; that parties should be invited to tender separately for these service from Bombay to Suez; and that the services for China, Japan, and the Straits, and for Australia, should be unconnected with the main postal communication between this country and India. By that plan they would break up the practical monopoly now in the hands of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Company, and enable other persons to compete with it. The time had come when they should endeavour to secure the advantages of competition to the utmost, and when they should be able to look upon the one service of India as wholly distinct from that of Australia. He had been asked whether he would consent to the insertion of words in his Motion which would enable the Committee to include the telegraphic communication with China and with Australia within the scope of its inquiry; but it would tend to hamper the inquiry if, in the first instance, such a vast addition were made to the labours of the Committee. He came forward with a specific complaint—namely, a complaint as to the manner in which the telegraphic services with India were carried on, and also with a distinct allegation that as far as the postal communication was concerned it was susceptible of great improvement without any heavy increase of expense. The Committee should, therefore, in the first instance at least, restrict its inquiry to the particular subjects to which he had referred, and if, when it had completed that part of its task, the inquiry could, upon instruction from the House, be extended to other portions of the question, he, for one, would be very glad. He moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the practical working of the present systems of telegraphic and postal communication between this country and the East Indies.

said, that he seconded the Motion. The clear and able statement of his hon. Friend rendered it unnecessary for him to detain the House for more than a few moments. He should have been glad if his hon. Friend had confined his proposal to an inquiry into the telegraphic communication, without adding the postal communication to it. The two questions were too wide for a Committee to deal with within any reasonable period. As to the telegraphic communication, there were great complaints, both of its extreme irregularity in delivery and its great incorrectness. He would confine himself to stating a few facts to corroborate what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for London relative to telegraphs. Like his hon. Friend he had received a great number of communications which he had been requested to submit to the House. He had made a selection, and would give the House a few illustrations of telegraphic irregularity. The first letter to which he would call their attention was one complaining of the telegraphic communication with Bombay. It stated that an order had been sent by telegraph to Bombay for a considerable purchase of cotton. The message, which ought to have been delivered in twenty-four, or at most in thirty-six hours, had not come to hand for thirty-six days, not till after a letter containing a duplicate of the order had been received. The same party received a telegram last month, stating that Mr. H., the managing partner of the concern in Bombay, was leaving in consequence of ill-health, and requesting that a gentleman should be sent out immediately to take his place. A gentleman was sent out at a salary of about £1,000 a year; but soon after a letter arrived from which it appeared that the telegram was not from Bombay; that it was not a man in the position of the partner there who was wanted, but that a clerk of the same name having fallen ill at Madras a person was required to replace him. Within a short period the same parties complained that eleven messages were not delivered at all; four reached in about a month after transmission, and two were unintelligible when delivered. Some four or five months ago application was made to the Electric and International Telegraph Company for repayment of a sum of about £66 for these useless messages. They said they would communicate with the foreign telegraph office, but nothing had been heard of the matter since. He had another letter from Calcutta which stated that in the case of a number of telegraphic messages from Calcutta the time of transmission was from five to thirty-one days. Two messages were sent out on the 16th of December. One reached in seven, and the other in twenty-three days. One writer said he had sent out "a limit" for the purchase of cotton, which limit was very much increased. In another case this limit was sent "Increase 5 per cent," which was altered to "Increase liver per cent." One house sent to Madras in six months 250 messages, and received 153, at a cost of nearly £4,000, and it so happened that many of those telegrams had never been delivered at all, while in other cases those which had been sent last were delivered first. The only way in which this could be accounted for was that the operators in Turkey not being fond of hard work, waited till they got a number of those messages, when, having previously filed them, they commenced to work them off; so that those which were filed last got their turn first. He did not vouch for that as a fact, but it was one of the statements put forward. He had received one or two suggestions to the effect that the only remedy for the irregularity was to have British "signallers" appointed. They had the evidence of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Sir Charles Bright) that between Bussorah and Kurrachee, that portion of the line being worked by English signallers, messages were sent a distance of 1,500 miles in little more than half an hour. He had received a communication from the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, which had been endeavouring to collect information on the subject. In answer to the inquiries made by the Chamber, an extensive house said that, in their experience, the irregularity was so uniform that they found it difficult to single out instances of irregularity. Every telegram they received was a fresh illustration of the very defective and unsatisfactory working of the system. His hon. Friend had made out a very clear case on the part of the mercantile community; but those who asked for a reform in this telegraphic system might go further. There was no one who had relatives in India but felt that this was a social question, and no one knew better than Her Majesty's Government its importance in a political point of view. He hoped that when his hon. Friend got his Committee he would put practical men upon it—men competent to grapple with the subject; and that if we could not have a perfect, we should at least have an improved system of telegraphic communication between this country and India.

said, that having been practically engaged in the construction and laying down of the portion of the line under discussion in the first part of the speech of the hon. Member for London, he hoped the House would permit him to add the expression of his regret that a line with which so much pains had been taken, and which had cost so much money, should have occasioned so much disappointment. He took it for granted that the Turkish Government was desirous of carrying out the convention; but so little interest did the Turks feel in the matter, that when he arrived from Scinde he found that the line between Bussorah and Bagdad was delayed for a year, owing to some miserable local squabble between the Governor of Bagdad and some of the tribes, and operations in the Turkish dominions had been retarded a whole year. The working of the Indian line had been described as the most wretched in the world. Except for the bad working on the Turkish portion of the line, messages might be sent with the greatest possible regularity between England and Kurrachee in three or four hours, But on arrival at Kurrachee, the distribution of messages to Bombay and Madras was performed in a wretchedly bad manner. He had met a gentleman waiting as long as seven days at Bombay for a telegram, and he had been obliged to wait himself for two or three days for a telegram between Kurrachee and Bombay, a distance of 500 miles. It would be difficult to exaggerate the importance of this line in a political sense, and while it was working so badly it would be impossible to extend our telegraphic system through Australia and China.

said, he was glad his hon. Friend the Member for the City (Mr. Crawford) had put the telegraphic before the postal communication, but he did not concur with his hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall) that he ought to have omitted the postal communication altogether. On the contrary, he believed the one was so connected with the other that a Committee would arrive at very imperfect conclusions if it separated them. In expressing the gratitude of the mercantile community to his lion. Friend for having brought the subject — which he hoped would meet with a full inquiry—under the notice of the House, he might say in reference to a great corporate body, the Peninsular and Oriental Company, that, instead of shrinking from inquiry, or wishing to evade it, they courted the fullest investigation. They were justly proud of their position, for where was the corporate body which had progressed more rapidly and with greater benefit to the public as well as to themselves? It must be admitted that they had done much to promote intercommunication between England and our Indian Empire. It was quite true that that Company was established fourteen years ago, but they had progressed more rapidly than any other trading corporation. Again, it was said that there was a monopoly, but the corporation to which he referred invited all comers, if they were able to do the work better. Still, there were many things which ought to be done which were not done. The service might be greatly improved, the expense possibly lessened, and the public in every way benefited by inquiry. As a mercantile man, and representing a great mercantile and shipping constituency, he entirely concurred in the appointment of a Committee.

said, that the House was much obliged to the hon. Member for the City for the very lucid and interesting statement he had made in introducing his Motion. It would be unnecessary for him to enter into any lengthened discussion of the various points adverted to by his hon. Friend, because the Government, as had already been intimated, did not intend to oppose the Motion; on the contrary, indeed, they would afford him their hearty support, as they were of opinion that benefit would result from the investigation of a Committee. The proposed inquiry would be divided into two branches—the working of the telegraph system, and the working of the postal system between this country and India. His hon. Friend had, he thought, done right in including the postal system in his proposal, for the two subjects were intimately connected. But the other question was he considered rightly placed first, the telegraph being now so generally used for purposes of business that it was rapidly superseding postal communications. It was expedient that the House should know exactly what faults existed in the great telegraph lines connecting this country with those countries with which our commercial intercourse was on so large a scale. At the same time, his hon. Friend must not take it for granted that the Amendments which he had suggested—however easy of execution they might appear—would entirely remedy the faults which he had pointed out, or that the existence of those faults was a matter of special blame to the companies who happened at the present moment to have the whole of this business in their hands. If the lines of other telegraphic companies were to be subjected to as minute an examination, it might happen that as grave blots would be found in them as those with the description of which his hon. Friend had amused the House. The subject was one of great difficulty, and where the line passed through several foreign countries, in which different systems prevailed, difficulties existed which could not be grappled with at once. Considering the short period during which the lines had been in operation, it would be unjust to treat them in a hostile spirit and broadly to condemn their operations. On the other hand, he must admit that the present state of affairs was not satisfactory. It must be understood that the Committee was not to be used for the purposes of attack on one company or obtaining subventions for another, but to consider what practical improvements could be made in the system. With respect to postal communication with India, the remarks of his hon. Friend ought to have great weight with the House. The postal arrangement with India had not hitherto been made upon a regular plan, but almost haphazard, as it were, extending now in one direction, now in another, as the temporary occasion required. We had been in such a state of transition both as regarded commerce and political affairs in the East, that he could not point to any particular moment when it would have been thoroughly safe to take up the whole question. He thought, however that the present was a time when the subject might be looked into with great advantage to the public service, especially as a new route to Calcutta, which, with the exception of sixty miles, would be completed in a few months, was about to be brought into operation. That would put the whole question upon an entirely new footing, for communications would be far more rapid by the new railway through Bombay than the present route through Madras and Point de Galle. We were also now approaching a time when the railway would be completed to South Italy, and the communications with Alexandria by Brindisi would be much quicker than they were by Marseilles. The hon. Gentleman had not noticed the present well-organized system under the French Government through Marseilles, Egypt, Point de Galle, Suez, Singapore, and China. It appeared to him that we had not sufficiently considered to what extent we could avail ourselves of that service which another Government, in a spirit of enterprise, had extended to the extreme East. The present was a fitting occasion for considering the whole matter dispassionately, and the Government would desire to have in the Committee the assistance of thoughtful men of business who could devote time to the inquiry. It was most desirable that in dealing with the question of postal communication the question of economy should not be lost sight of; for at present, notwithstanding the annual contribution of £30,000 by Australia towards the line between England and India, there was a loss on this line of between £80,000 and £90,000 to the Home Government. On these grounds the Government had much pleasure in acceding to the proposal of his hon. Friend.

said, he rose to make a personal explanation which was forced from him. In former years he had warned the House against being led astray by recommendations with respect to telegraphic communications with the East, made by hon. Members on behalf of undertakings in which they were personally interested. In doing so there was no intention to make any reflection on any particular person, and least of all was there any such intention with respect to his hon. Friend (Mr. Crawford). In the year 1857 his hon. Friend had distinctly recommended that public money should be used in order to establish a line of railway in connection with India. Not having any official responsibility, he did what he hoped independent Members would ever agree to do—defend the public purse. On that occasion he said the House of Commons should regard with great jealousy recommendations made by Members of Parliament of schemes which, however interesting they might be from a benevolent point of view, were substantially commercial undertakings, and ought to be allowed to stand or fall as such. That was the head and front of his offending.

said, that when the railway over Mont Cenis was completed there would be a saving of forty-two hours in the communication between this country and the East.

said, that independently of the Mont Cenis Railway, there was another line through Italy in a very advanced state, by the Splugen Pass and Brindisi. When it was completed it would open another route to Egypt, by which the inconvenience of crossing the snow-clad Alps would be avoided.

said, he gladly welcomed any measure having for its object to render more efficient the Free Public Libraries.

Sir, my hon. Friend need not expect opposition. On the contrary, the Government will afford him every support and assistance for the success of his Bill. I cannot refrain from seizing this opportunity of cordially congratulating my hon. Friend on having been permitted, during a long and honourable Parliamentary life, to see the gradual development of the fruit of his labour, and to watch these institutions spread throughout the great centres of population where it is so desirable they should exist. My hon. Friend's name is associated with many achievements of public utility, but with this act of legislation, I think, he may feel assured that his name will be associated not only during his life, but after he is gone.

said, he was anxious to introduce an Amendment giving effect to the terms of the Report made by the Commission presided over by the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas). That Report had been moved for on the 13th of February, but it was only that day that Members had been able to obtain copies. It was owing to the indefatigable endeavours of the noble Lord that Ireland was at present free from the cattle plague. Ireland did not ask for entire indemnity, but for contribution towards the expenses that would be necessary should the plague unfortunately reach that country. The suggestion contained in the Report was that the expenses of carrying those orders into execution, save the sums to be paid as compensation for the compulsory slaughter of animals, should be defrayed out of monies voted by Parliament.

said, across the table, that it was not competent to the hon. Member at such a stage of the Bill to introduce so important a Motion.

said, that owing to the non-production of the Report, no earlier opportunity had been open to him. The Report showed on what abundant grounds the Motion was based. He asked in common justice for a full indemnity in the manner suggested by that Report for such expenses as might be rendered necessary by the creation of a staff of veterinary surgeons, inspectors, and other officers whose appointment had been rendered expedient by the fact that the plague had been allowed to reach in this country the height which it had at present attained. He moved, as an Amendment, the insertion of words providing that the amount of compensation paid under these circumstances should be defrayed by means of money voted by Parliament.

said, he was in hopes the few words he had spoken across the table would have relieved the Committee from the necessity of discussing the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman had not taken his seat in the House in the present Parliament for the first time, and therefore ought to be aware that the course which he was pursuing was almost without parallel. The proposal by private Members of public charges was well-known to be opposed to all the rules laid down by the House for its own guidance, although within the last few years words had been inserted by means of which those rules had been rendered ineffective. The point, however, to which he wished to call special attention, was that of founding on a document not in the hands of Members—

Yes, it is. It was presented this morning.

It is not a Parliamentary paper.

Yes, it is.

I moved for it a few days since.

Well, be that as it might, he did not think the hon. Member—who had given no notice of his Amendment—were he to ransack the Votes of the House from one end to the other, would find an example of such a proceeding as that to which he had just had recourse. He proposed, in a House of not more than forty Members, and upon the discussion of the clauses of a Bill in reference to which not a single notice of Amendment had been given, to lay down a totally different principle on the question of compensation from that which had received the sanction of Parliament in the case of England. For his own part he had not had an opportunity of considering that proposal at all, and he must not be regarded as giving to it any encouragement under the circumstances. He would, however, put it to the hon. Gentleman, as a matter of propriety, whether he would press his Amendment?

said, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be aware that the Bill had been read a second time only that very morning at two o'clock; that the Report on which he relied had been placed in his hands only that very day, that he there- fore could not have given notice of the Amendment, and that that was therefore the only manner in which he could raise the question.

said, that the hon. Gentleman might have adopted the very obvious course of giving private notice on the subject to his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland, who might then have postponed the Committee on the Bill.

said, he scarcely felt himself authorized in taking any step in the matter without communicating with his noble Friend the Member for Cocker-mouth (Lord Naas), whom he had only seen a short time before, and to whose exertions he repeated it was, under Providence, due that Ireland was free from the cattle plague at the present moment.

said, that the Bill had been brought forward at the request of the Irish Members generally, and it was scarcely reasonable when the House went into Committee upon it that such a proposition as that of the hon. Gentleman should be made. It was advisable, in his opinion, that the people of Ireland should themselves pay what the Bill proposed, and that the Government should take the responsibility in the event of an outbreak of the disease. The action of the Government in the matter under consideration was, in his opinion, an unmixed good, and he did not think it becoming in representatives of Irish constituencies to appear at the eleventh hour in opposition to the Bill.

said, he considered the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been a little too hard, under the circumstances, on his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. S. B. Miller). Although the latter might have made an unusual Motion, it was by no means unparliamentary. He should be sorry to delay the progress of the Bill, even if they obtained the object his hon. and learned Friend had in view. He hoped, as the opinion of the Committee was against him, that he would consent to withdraw his Amendment. The proposition, it was but right he should say, had been well considered in Ireland, and he did not see that his hon. and learned Friend was to blame in bringing the subject before the Committee. It was thought in Ireland that the extra duties which the constabulary and others (who were paid out of the Consolidated Fund) would have to perform under this Bill might be paid by the country.

said, he would recommend the hon. and learned Gentleman not to divide the Committee, as in the then state of the House it might become a dropped Order.

said, he would suggest that a larger sum than 2d. in the pound should be levied upon the occurrence of the event contemplated by the clause, and suggested that 1d. should be substituted for 2d.