said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether the following statement, which appeared in The Times of the 5th April, is correct:—

"The Secretary for War recently established a branch of his department to codify and revise warrants and regulations issued from the War Office; be has appointed Mr. J. Norman Lockyer to the charge of this branch;"

said, he was afraid that he could not give his hon. Friend a full explanation of the subject without occupying too much of the time of the House. The short answer, however, which he might give was this. It was true that in December last such a branch was established, consisting of Mr. Lockyer and others, who would receive an extra allowance in addition to their pay. The duty was almost entirely a new one, and it was difficult to state precisely the amount of economy effected by the change, as it formed part of a larger system of reorganization which secured a saving of £4,000 a year. If his hon. Friend wished for a more detailed statement in regard to this branch he would enter into a fuller explanation on going into Committee of Supply.

said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the Government intend to adopt the recommendation in the Report of the Committee on Irish Taxation (1865), to the effect that

"The advances for Land Improvement, &c, should not be limited to the sum of £8,000 upon any one estate; that the repayment of Loans should be extended over a longer period than twenty-two years; and that it should not be compulsory, when a loan is granted for a Farm Building, upon the proprietor to provide a house at a cost of £200?"

, in reply, said, the Government had adopted the first recommendation, that the advance should not be limited to the sum of £8,000, subject to the discretion of the Lords of the Treasury. As to the second, his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury had introduced a clause giving the Treasury power to extend the repayment of loans to periods of thirty-five years in cases where the benefit the proprietor obtained was less than the percentage now charged on loans for twenty-two years; and with reference to the last part of the question, the hon. Baronet was, no doubt, aware that under the new Act loans would be granted for the erection of farmhouses as well as farm buildings, the present condition being that the value of the farmhouse built in conjunction with farm buildings should be one-third the amount of the loan made for such buildings.

said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the Inspectors General of Prisons have made any representation to the Irish Government with a view to the consolidation and Amendment of the Laws relating to county prisons in Ireland; and, if so, whether the Government proposes to legislate on the subject? He also wished to know when the annual Report of the Inspectors General of prisons will be laid upon the table? He strongly objected to the practice of postponing the production of these Reports till the end of the Session.

said, it was quite correct that the inspectors had made such representations to the Government, and the Government, with their aid, had prepared a Bill for the consolidation and amendment of the laws relating to county prisons in Ireland. If the state of public business gave him any hope of passing the Bill during the present Session, he should wish to do so, but he was afraid he could entertain no such hopes. He proposed, therefore, to introduce the Bill and lay it on the table before the time when the Irish grand juries met at the summer Assizes, so that it might be considered by them and by the country. The Report would be produced before the end of the Session.

said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the present condition of Land Tenure in the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay in reference to the supply of raw cotton, and to move a Resolution. He said, that a short time since a meeting had been held at Manchester, composed chiefly of commercial men, but attended also by a larger number of Members of Parliament than usually attended debates on Indian subjects in that House, and by many persons who had spent a considerable portion of their lives in India. No resolutions were passed by that miscellaneous assemblage, but the position of our Indian Empire was discussed in a debate which lasted two days, and in which the expediency of endeavouring to enlist the sympathy of the new Parliament upon subjects connected with India was strongly enforced, He (Mr. Smollett) did not attend that meeting; but, not having obtained his seat in that House until Easter, and having then looked through the Journal and Order Book he was, he confessed, somewhat surprised to find that though three months had elapsed since the new Parliament had met, not a single Motion having reference to India had been placed on the Notice Book. The truth he believed to be that gentlemen connected with trade and commerce had for the most part little or no knowledge of India or its requirements, while those gentlemen connected with that country who were present at the meeting at Manchester went down there he believed rather with a view to share in the splendid hospitalities of that city, to revel in venison and turtle, and claret, than for any more serious object. It was under these circumstances that he had given notice of the Motion to which he was about to invite the attention of the House; and he was glad to have an opportunity of doing so, because he was desirous, among other things, of knowing what was to be expected from the present occupants of office in the Indian Department. He felt perfectly satisfied that his hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) did not wish to hide his light under a bushel; but he might nevertheless, he thought, safely prophesy that the House would very seldom hear the silvery tones of his voice while he continued to fill the office to which he had recently been relegated. So far, indeed, as discussions on Indian subjects were con- cerned, the Department of the Secretary for India was a perfect sinecure, and it would, he believed, soon become a refuge for the destitute. Those who were in that House in the last Parliament would recollect that it was the custom of Gentlemen connected with Manchester, and those who supported their views, to speak in terms of great disparagement of the administration of Indian affairs by Sir Charles Wood. They accused him, among many other things, of having obstructed the supply of cotton from India to this country, whereas he ought to have afforded facilities for its cultivation by enabling the people in India to get land for the purpose gratuitously and exempting them from taxation; and because Sir Charles Wood would not listen to their suggestions, because he had some faith in the principles of political economy and in the doctrine of supply and demand, his administration was covered with abuse. In the clamour against that administration, however, he had taken no share. The real state of the case was that for many years the Southern States of America had obtained a monopoly of the cotton supply. That monopoly suddenly collapsed in 1860; and it was absurd to apply every possible epithet of vituperation to our Indian Government, because within the two or three years which followed, India was unable to furnish us with 4,000,000 bales of cotton, the amount of the supply withdrawn from the commerce of the world, and which we used annually to receive from America. India did all which we could, under the circumstances, reasonably anticipate She furnished us with 1,400,000 bales annually, or five times the quantity which we received from any other single region of the world. The men who blamed the Indian Government for the want of cotton were utterly misinformed in respect to everything connected with India. The same parties also found fault with Sir Charles Wood's administration in reference to the tenure of land, and blamed him for cancelling some well-devised resolutions of Lord Canning relating to waste lands, under the operation of which howling deserts were to have been converted into smiling cotton gardens. Now, what Lord Halifax did was to amend some ill-advised resolutions which Lord Canning passed before leaving Calcutta—for it was idle to suppose that howling deserts could be converted, as if by the wand of a magician, into smiling cotton gardens—indeed, many of these waste districts were wholly unsuited to the purpose under any circumstances. Nevertheless, the Gentlemen connected with Manchester who made these unreasonable complaints sometimes made valuable suggestions, and one was that they might be brought into direct communication with the cotton producers of India. They said that all they wanted was to get a good article, and that they were quite willing to pay a fair price for it. This proposition, however desirable, was not feasible; because, unfortunately, all the land in the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay from which the greatest amount of cotton supply was derived was the property of the Government, and the cultivators were but serfs paying to the Government a very onerous rent. In the Presidency of Madras, for example, the Government had possibly 100,000 farms; but a farm was not let to a single farmer as in this country, for the officials allotted annually, in small holdings, the arable portion of a farm, containing perhaps 2,000 acres, to 500 or 600 tenants, and every one of those allottees was answerable to the Government for the rent of his small occupation. That rent in former times had been fixed at the money value of one-half of the entire produce of the soil. The condition of these serfs had been very much ameliorated during the last fifteen years. From the year 1828 to 1850 he could state from his own knowledge that they were steeped in the deepest, the most helpless misery. The prices of the material they raised being then extremely low, they were in reality paying to the Government as much as 60 or 70 per cent instead of 50, on the value of their produce. This state of things had, however, very materially altered within the last fifteen years. Since 1850 prices in India had gradually risen, and the condition of the agricultural population had at the same time improved, and the cultivators probably did not pay now the Government more than 25 or 30 per cent of the value of their produce. But the smallness of the holdings still continued to reduce the population to a very humble and wretched condition. From data supplied by the Madras Government he found that in the year 1862–3 there were in that Presidency 2,200,000 persons paying agricultural rent to the Government; but the House would be very much mistaken if they supposed these tenants to be anything like the tenant farmers of this country; for out of that vast mass of tenants there were only 420 who paid as much as £100 a year; there were only 1,050 who paid between £50 and £100; there were only 5,600 who paid between £25 and £50; there were only 77,000 who paid between £10 and £25; 90 per cent of the whole number paid less than £10; and there were 1,200,000 of these occupiers of land who paid less than £1 a year. Here was an amount of agricultural pauperism. Agricultural destitution was made an institution in Madras. And these were the people whom the men of Lancashire wished to be brought into direct communication with in order to make contracts with them for cotton. The thing was altogether absurd. He had heard the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Henry Seymour), who was not now in his place, suggest that these men should be allowed to purchase their holdings. If they did they would have to borrow the money. But they could not be allowed to purchase their holdings, because there were no boundaries; and to permit them to purchase their holdings would only be making that system permanent which he wished to see abolished. In 1862–3, Sir William Denison, then Governor of Madras, recorded his opinions on this subject. Sir William Denison was an Engineer officer not conversant with Indian agriculture, but he recorded in a minute how much he lamented to see such an immense number of small holdings in the province. He said that while that state of things existed it would be impossible that capital should be applied to the productions of the soil; but, while admitting the mischief of the present system, he had no remedy to propose. He suggested, however, that the Government should take into their own hands a number of these holdings, make model farms of them, and raise the products by implements of agriculture imported from Europe. He (Mr. Smollett) did not think these suggestions smacked of absolute wisdom. If adopted, they would only degenerate into great jobs. The proposal received no support from the Members of his own Government. Two Members of Council, Mr. Pycroft and Mr. Maltby, civilians of thirty-five years' standing, concurred with his Excellency in lamenting that the holdings were so small, and the more so, because the subdivision of the soil was annually progressing; but when they came to suggest a remedy they merely indulged in platitudes—that irrigation must be improved, roads cut through the country, schools introduced, and courts of law brought near to the serfs. Finally, they alleged that if the condition of the people was to be improved, rents must be lowered. Now, there was no way of improving the condition of the people but by putting an end to this most wretched system. He might be asked what he would substitute, First of all he would sweep away the present system and establish a system of village farms; renting out these farms to one person if possible, and, if not, to the heads of the community, instead of the rabble to whom the lands were let at present. The great advantage of renting out these farms would be this—instead of 2,200,000 small holders the Government would have to deal with a very much smaller number, and would be enabled to get rid of a great portion of the revenue collecting establishment. But was this plan of renting out the farms practicable? He contended that it was perfectly practicable. In point of fact, he had himself, during his official connection with India, carried out the system in a large tract of country, against the wishes of the Government, but with great success. He happened to have charge of a great estate for some years. It belonged to a gentleman (the Rajah of Vizianagram) who had recently occupied a seat in the Supreme Council of India. It was under the charge of the Madras Government for many years. His predecessor only collected £65,000 a year from it. The first year he took this great estate under his superintendence he collected £120,000, and it now yielded to its possessor £160,000. The Government censured him, but he treated their censures with supreme contempt. Now, although this renting system he had just described would be a great temporary improvement, still he believed that other and more desirable measures should be introduced. His opinion was that they ought gradually to introduce into India a permanent settlement—not such as Lord Halifax used to say he was in favour of, but such as Lord Cornwallis introduced into Lower Bengal in 1772; for Lord Cornwallis was a statesman very superior indeed to the Cannings, de Greys, and Lawrences of the present day, The principle of his settlement was the creation of a class of landed aristocracy, by uniting ten or twenty farms into one estate, and conferring it on one individual, burdened, indeed, with a heavy land tax, but still leaving a surplus to the owner. Under that system a body of proprietors existed in lower Bengal who were not only rich and powerful, but well affected to the Go- vernment, their interests being bound up with it; and the value of the land had greatly increased. In Madras, on the other hand, during the half century ending in 1850 the value of land deteriorated, though of late years rents had increased, and the cultivation of the land had extended owing entirely to the great rise in prices. He wanted to see the system existing in Bengal applied to the other Presidencies; and until this was done, it was idle to talk of bringing Liverpool merchants or Manchester cotton-spinners into direct communication with the cotton-growers of India. If, however, he was asked whether there was any probability of these reforms being carried out, he must admit that there was not the smallest chance as matters were now managed—not because they were not perfectly practicable, but because they required the presence in high places of some one understanding the subject, and of resolute will. But, unfortunately, all the authorities in India were adverse to the creation of property in land. There was nobody whom a Madras or Bombay official hated so much as a Native landowner, and he was never so happy as when engaged in hunting down the few individuals of this class left by previous Governments, confiscating their estates on some frivolous pretext, and adding them to the Government domains. In this they were hounded on by their superiors, and. they found it, in fact, the surest road to promotion. To show the feelings that animated our rulers in the East, he might observe that during his residence in India Lord Harris was Governor of Madras. He did not wish to say anything disagreeable of that nobleman, who in private life was a man of the most estimable character; but on one occasion he had an interview with him to bring under his notice a gross injustice committed on some Native families of the district to which he had been appointed. Lord Harris received him with much courtesy, acknowledged that there was a great deal of truth in his statement, and that he to some extent sympathized with his views; but he added that he had come to India with the notion that it was our mission in the East to destroy all the native nobility and gentry. When an amiable nobleman in high position such as Lord Harris had got a notion of that kind, it was evidently no use arguing with him, and he accordingly withdrew. But if Governors held such views, what could be expected from their subordinates? Noble Lords and hon. Gentlemen went out to India with no knowledge whatever of the country they were going to govern, and they consequently fell naturally into the same groove as their predecessors. Occasionally, indeed, there were Governors who had had a previous acquaintance with Indian duties. The present Viceroy, for example, Sir John Lawrence, had spent his life there. Such men, however, had generally been brought up with the same ideas to which he had referred, and they generally made the worst possible Governors. What, for instance, were the views of Sir John Lawrence? For the last two or three years he had been endeavouring to overthrow the system introduced by Lord Canning into Oude, a landlord settlement similar to what he was advocating, and which was one of Lord Canning's greatest and best measures. The Under Secretary for India would probably deny it, but Sir John Lawrence's wish had been to upset that arrangement. His object was to set the tenantry in Oude against the landlords, and put an end to the system by rendering it impracticable. Sir John Lawrence, who came from the "Black North," was a man who entertained some extraordinary notion of tenant right, and one of his ideas, he believed, was that the land should be the property of the peasantry, and that the landlord was a tyrant and oppressor—much the same notion as that which Irish tenants had of their landlords. That had been his "little game" for the last two years; and though his policy had been hitherto thwarted, he was an obstinate man, and would no doubt renew his attempts to carry it out at the first convenient opportunity. In that House, moreover, no attention was paid to Indian affairs. They had the Indian budget year after year, but nobody listened to it, and he thought the farce had better be discontinued. Every attempt was made by excluding Members of Council from Parliament to keep the House in the dark on Indian matters, and the Government endeavoured to keep out all debates on such subjects. The consequence was that the office of Secretary for India would decline in public estimation year after year, and a man of great debating power and talent would think himself thrown away in this Department, because he would find himself entirely shelved. He should not be surprised, some of these days, to see the appointment given away by public examination, and falling into the hands of some Competition Wallah on the Liberal benches. He thought the personnel of the Department had greatly deteriorated in the recent changes. Lord Halifax was a man of considerable attainments as a statesman; he was a man of great business capacity; he had a will of his own; and his administration as regarded India was generally a liberal one. But what was the case now? He had stated that Manchester men never came to the House to discuss Indian matters; hut just before Easter a deputation from Manchester went to the India Office and had an interview with Lord De Grey to press upon him some most extravagant projects, which he hoped would never be listened to. What, however, was their reception? His Lordship received them very courteously, heard their story, told them that he had only just been removed from the War to the India Office, and was quite fresh to his duties. Lord de Grey admitted that he did not understand the subject they had brought before him, hut said he would endeavour to get the matter up, and if he had time, and was in that office for another year, he hoped to be able to give them a more satisfactory reply in the year 1867. Meanwhile, he told them he had a Reform meeting to attend to, in order to stir up the country during the Easter Recess, and he must, therefore, bid them good morning; and with that intimation he handed them over to the Under Secretary, the hon. Member for Halifax. When things were arranged in that way, he really despaired of seeing any improvement in the Indian Administration. He felt that he had only done his duty in bringing this matter forward, and he should conclude by moving the Resolution of which he had given notice.

seconded the Motion.

said, he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Smollett), who had so good a right to address the House upon the subject before them, would not regard him as presumptuous if he ventured shortly to reply to his speech—the more so, because his hon. Friend would recollect that in point of principle the system of permanent settlement he advocated, but with all the details of which he might not agree, was put into force by the well-known despatch of July, 1862. Perhaps he might have left the duty of replying to the hon. Gentleman in the hands of one of the hon. Members for Manchester, as the boo. Gentleman had paid several somewhat dubious compliments to that city in referring to a meeting held there a short time since, which he appeared to be disposed to class among meetings where a great deal of talk took place without any valuable result being obtained. But with regard to his remarks upon Lord Halifax and Lord de Grey, he (Mr. Stansfeld) would acknowledge his obligations to him. His hon. Friend had correctly stated the question between Lord Canning and Lord Halifax on the subject of waste land; but with regard to his estimate of the speeches at Manchester, he must take issue with the hon. Gentleman upon that point. He bad read the speeches made at the meeting with great care and interest, and he believed that, had some of them been delivered in that House, they would have assisted hon. Gentlemen to more fully understand the subject before them, and might even have affected the opinions of the hon. Gentleman himself. He should refer to the opinions expressed at that meeting by a well-known gentleman who was thoroughly competent to speak upon the subject—namely, Mr. Cassels. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the land in India as being Government property. He (Mr. Stansfeld) admitted that the hon. Gentleman spoke with an authority and a weight be could not pretend to, but that certainly was not the lesson he had been able to learn during the short period in which he had had the opportunity of studying the question; and he believed he was in a position to cite against the hon. Gentleman a Return made to that House in June, 1857, from the Revenue Department of the then East India House, which was signed by a gentleman whom the hon. Gentleman would himself acknowledge to be an authority on all questions of national economy, and more especially on all Indian questions—namely, the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. J. Stuart Mill). He found in that report the following description of the land tenure of India:—

"Under the ryotwar system every registered holder of land is recognized as its proprietor, and pays direct to Government, He is at liberty to sublet his property, or to transfer it by gift, sale, or mortgage. He cannot be ejected by Government so long as he pays the fixed assessment, and has the option annually of increasing or diminishing his holding, or of entirely abandoning it. In unfavourable seasons remissions of assessment are granted for entire or partial loss of produce. The assessment is fixed in money, and does not vary from year to year, except in those cases where water is drawn from a Government source of irrigation to convert dry land into wet, or one into two-crop land, when an extra rent is paid to Government for the water so appropriated; nor is any addition made to the assessment for improvements effected at the ryot's own expense. The ryot, under this system, is virtually a proprietor on a simple and perfect title, and has all the benefits of a perpetual lease without its responsibilities."

"There can be no doubt that, until European energy and enterprise are brought into contact with the Natives of this country, the progress of improvement will be slow and unsatisfactory. All, however, who know India are aware that European agency cannot successfully be employed in the actual cultivation of the soil. A quarter of a century has produced very little change in the circumstances which led Sir J. R. Carnac to say, 'Cotton culture holds out no inducement for any private person who knows what he is about to engage his capital in any speculation on a large scale.' The whole of the cotton experimental establishments abundantly tested and proved that Europeans cultivating the soil could never compete in economy or compensating results with the husbandry of the ryots. Generally speaking, the whole of the work of his farm is performed by the ryot and his family, and their labour is given with all the goodwill of self-interest and all the constancy of personal concern. It is as impossible to compete with such efforts by hired labour, as it is for the European to perform that labour himself under an Indian sun."

said he would withdraw his Motion.

asked if this was in reality a payment out of the Consolidated Fund, and if it was, whether it was not repaid out of the Bankruptcy funds?

said, that these payments were charges on the Exchequer, though the latter might be indirectly recouped from other funds.

expressed a hope that the Government would not proceed with the Estimates in the then state of the Committee. He had been requested by the First Commissioner of Works, at about seven o'clock, not to bring forward the Motion he had upon the paper, because it was impossible for the Government to go into Committee of Supply. Other hon. Members were, he believed, under a similar impression; and, in addition to that, the obvious importance of the subject made the introduction of it to such a Committee little short of a mockery. He, therefore, appealed to the Government not to proceed with the Vote.

supported the appeal. They had not a House present, yet they were voting away millions of money.

said, intimation had been given to those Gentlemen most interested in the Estimates under consideration as to the course the Government proposed to pursue; but after what had fallen from hon. Gentleman, he suggested that they should proceed with the other Votes; and perhaps an hour hence, at about half past ten, the state of the House would admit of their considering the Educational Estimate.

said, the next Vote was of equal importance.

asserted that when asked by several hon. Members what course the Government would pursue, he had most distinctly stated that at about nine o'clock the Government would take Supply. Still, if it were the wish of hon. Gentlemen he would consent to postpone Class IV.

said, the Motion he had upon the paper dealt with Science and Art, and it was necessary, in his opinion, that that Motion be proceeded with before the Vote was considered. He, therefore, moved that the Chairman report Progress.

hoped the Motion would not be pressed, and offered to go on with Class V.

said, the Votes in Class VI, for religious purposes in Ireland, ought not to come on in the present state of the House.

said, he believed every Member who complained of that Vote was present when he stated that he would take it to-night.

stated, that out of £30,000 a year which the establishments at Bermuda cost, this country bore a cost of £4,000; but the Treasury had been in correspondence during the last few months with the Government of the Bermudas, and it was hoped that this Vote would be reduced next year.

said, that some explanation was due respecting it. This was a matter of a very old arrangement with the colonies of North America, under which certain of the rectors and missionaries were paid from the Votes of Parliament; but as their number decreased by death the Vote would be reduced.

thought that the taxing of England for the maintenance of clergymen in such a wealthy colony as Canada was a piece of absurdity, and he therefore objected to the Vote.

said, that the country was pledged to this Vote during the lifetime of the present recipients of the money, and there was therefore no possibility of getting rid of it. With regard to the clergy in the West Indies, that did not at all apply to the present Vote. That, however, would be a very proper question to raise at some not very distant time when the statute under which certain payments were made would cease.

wanted to know in what manner the statutes would put an end to the claims in question. Would the successors to the present Bishops receive the same amount of money as was now paid, or would the payments cease with their death? There was a growing opinion both at home and abroad that it was time these things were done away with. They were mischievous, and produced a bad feeling in the country to which the clergymen were sent, although at the expense of England. He wished to have a clear understanding before going further that measures were being taken to put an end to these payments.

said, it was very easy to give an answer to his hon. Friend. This was an expiring remnant of what was once a heavy charge, which had been taken away under Earl Grey's Government. The money was for the most part remitted in very small sums to missionaries in the North American colonies; it was on the faith of this provision that they had committed themselves to a particular line of life. The stoppage of these allowances was therefore felt to be a very great hardship, and, consequently, it was determined that the money should be continued to the present recipients till their decease. The amount was gradually being reduced, and did not now exceed £3,000, and the time would come when Parliament could cease to grant the Vote without breaking faith with a number of earnest and laborious men. With respect to the statute of which his hon. Friend had spoken, that had nothing to do with the Vote in hand.

was opposed to all grants of this nature, but where individual interests were concerned he would not, to give effect to his own views, consent to do a personal wrong.

said, the money seemed to be received by the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, and a Society of that kind was not likely to die.

said, that they were only the agents through whom the money was paid.

said, he observed in the Estimates a sum of £1,500

"To make good the loss of emolument sustained by the Governor of New Zealand owing to his transfer from the more lucrative Government of the Cape of Good Hope,"

said, that Sir George Grey was in receipt of a much larger salary before he went to New Zealand; but he was sent there on the supposition that he was the most suitable person, considering the state of the country, to fill the office of Governor, and the sum of £1,500 was to compensate him for the loss he had sustained by his removal.

said, the salaries of both officers should have been stated, in order that hon. Members might be able to decide whether the sum to be granted was a proper amount.

said, that Sir George Grey did not profit by his removal to New Zealand. An addition was simply made to the ordinary salary of the Governor of New Zealand, to secure Sir George Grey against any loss in accepting a post inferior in the rank of Colonial Governors; and he accepted it solely at the request of the Home Government, for the sake of the public service.

thought this was a curious sort of proceeding. In the ordinary course of affairs New Zealand paid its own Governor; but it appeared from this proposition that the sum which the colony allotted for the purpose was not enough to secure a sufficiently good man. At the same time, the circumstances of the colony were such as to require the presence of a man of the highest ability and great previous experience, and if the colony could find such a man they ought to pay him adequately. If New Zealand wanted a man as highly gifted as Sir George Grey—who was, no doubt, a very able man, and with great previous knowledge of the colony—they ought to pay a proper salary to secure him. It was not a sound principle that this country should supplement payments made by a colony for local purposes. Of course Sir George Grey ought not to be the loser, but this was an awkward precedent to set.

said, nothing could be fairer than the way in which the question had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman. The Vote was one of a novel description, and it ought to be carefully watched by the House of Commons, lest it should grow into a precedent. But he thought it was justified by the peculiar circumstances of the case. A particular emergency had arisen in New Zealand—a state of war, in fact. It was true that New Zealand paid for its civil Governor, and it was very probable that for the sum they allot a competent person might have been found, and one that would have carried on the government in accordance with the views of the colonists. But there were questions, such as those connected with the aborigines, with regard to which this country had feelings and interests not fully shared by the colonists, and the object of the Government was to send out a man who would not simply carry out the views of the colonists, but who would do justice to both parties. Sir George Grey, having been Governor of New Zealand for a very long period, was held to be the fittest man to effect a settlement. Now it was not fair to call upon the colonists to pay the whole salary of this Governor; because, in point of fact, he was not sent out to give effect to their views, but of those of the Government at home. There being thus a public object to be gained, the Vote, he thought, was perfectly justifiable; at the same time the proposal was avowedly exceptional in its character, and ought not to be drawn into a precedent. The order to proceed to New Zealand was sent to Sir George Grey at the Cape of Good Hope without any previous communication with him, and this, of course, increased the obligation of the Government.

wished to know if it was intended that this Vote should go on indefinitely?

said, the Government of Sir George Grey had been already prolonged by exceptional circumstances in the colony, and therefore the extra charge was not likely to be of long continuance.

agreed that the money ought to be paid, but the precedent was an awkward one whichever way it was looked at. The colony might complain and say, "You are paying a man high to come out here and do what we do not want to be done."

was satisfied with the explanation furnished by the Government, but thought a full statement ought to precede Votes of so exceptional a character. He wished to learn the details of Sir George Grey's salary, and whether there was any likelihood that the amount now voted would ever be repaid by the colony.

said, the Vote was a free grant by the House, made with no undertaking, contingent or otherwise, on the part of the colony, to refund the amount. The Vote added to Sir George Grey's salary as Governor of Now Zealand would exactly make up his official income as Governor of the Cape of Good Hope.

objected to the principle of paying for the magistrates of the West Indies, especially as it appeared from recent events that justice there was very partially administered, and that the black people were cruelly oppressed, and a stipendiary magistracy, if it existed at all, ought to be paid from the local funds.

agreed with much that had fallen from the hon. Member. But it was an expiring Vote, the residue of a much larger sum. As to the administration of justice, it would require more than the six magistrates referred to, to do justice in the island.

asked would the Vote expire as the magistrates die off?

Yes.

said, that after the Emancipation Act stipendiary magistrates were sent out from England, whoso exertions had proved most salutary. The House of Assembly, however, refusing to provide salaries for them, these were necessarily paid by the English Government. The Vote would diminish as the number of remaining magistrates grew smaller. He knew that great complaints had been made—he did not say with what foundation—as to the administration of justice in Jamaica; but he had never heard any complaint against the administration of justice by the stipendiary magistrates.

asked for some explanation on the Vote.

said, that a Committee who inquired into the question last Session were unanimously of opinion that, though it was not desirable to increase our establishment in Western Africa, it was necessary to maintain them.

observed, that the constant demands under this head called for some explanation.

said, that certain charges which formerly had been paid by the East India Company were now paid out of the Imperial Exchequer.

asked how it was that this payment still continued?

said, that the money was paid in pursuance of an arrangement come to ten years ago, when the Orange River Territory was given up. Certain pensions were then given the recipients of which were gradually diminishing.

thought it would be a great advantage to us if we could get rid of other territories on similar terms.

inquired in what manner the persons who received the pensions died off. Were there any reversionary interests? Did their children receive pensions?

said, there was no reversionary interest in the pensions. He did not know exactly in what manner the pensioners died off, but he presumed that they departed in the same way as all human beings did.

had no doubt they died in the ordinary way. It did not require one to be a Privy Councillor to tell that. What he wanted to know was, the way in which the payment of the money was to come to an end.

asked what were to be the future arrangements for Labuan? Was the garrison composed of British or Indian troops?

said, that expenses were incurred in consequence of the coal to be found in the vicinity of the station. The garrison was composed of Sepoys.

asked whether any portion of the Vote was applied to the investigation of the nature of the coal-fields?

said, the coal-fields were already open, and coal had been brought to the surface, so that it was now too late for inquiry on that head. Petroleum also had been discovered there; hut it was too early yet to say anything with respect to that.

inquired what was the extent of the coal-fields?

said, the coal-fields were considerable. He could not state with statistical accuracy the extent of the coal-fields or the quality of the coal.

said, he could not help thinking that the time might not be far distant when it would be no longer thought expedient to vote money for this purpose. He thought the time was not far distant when we should discover, to our loss, that we had not a surplus of population at home. If there was a field for the labour of emigrants in the colonies, the colonies ought to make the grant for emigration. There could be no doubt that there was, even at present, a great scarcity of labour in the scenes of our commercial enterprize at home; and the policy of encouraging emigration to the colonies by Votes from the Imperial Exchequer was therefore questionable, to say the least. If Parliament were called on to vote a sum for this purpose, by parity of reasoning it might be called on to aid in removing labourers from Devonshire, or other agricultural districts, to the more populous and better-paid districts of Lancashire and Yorkshire.

said, that the expenditure in question was not incurred in removing persons to the colonies, but for the very necessary purpose of seeing that those who emigrated did so in a manner consistent with humanity, safety, and comfort. He was sure that a Vote for that purpose would not be objected to, and that it would be contrary to the wishes of the House to do anything which should defeat the object in view, and allow persons to go to sea in un sea worthy ships, or under circumstances that might involve suffering or danger.

said, that in the inquiry which was made into the loss of the London, which had so greatly shocked the people of this country; reference was made to the surveys and so forth the vessel had undergone before leaving port. Prom the evidence on this point it appeared to him it was possible for some things, to use a common phrase, to fall to the ground between two stools. The Emigration surveyors seemed to look to one thing, and other parties to another; but there seemed to be no one responsible altogether for the safety of the vessel. He wished to ask whether, since that inquiry, the attention of the Emigration Officer had been called to that branch of the subject. The House would not grudge a proper payment to have the work of inspection well done. If it suited people to go to the colonies, it was necessary that there should be some oversight to afford security that the vessels in which they sailed were fit to take them; but care must be taken that money was paid for a good and useful purpose, and not for merely nominal surveys. From the evidence given at the inquiry it was impossible to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion as to the condition of the vessel when she left Plymouth, and as to whether she was or was not properly laden with a great quantity of deck cargo in the shape of coal which might have contributed to the loss of the vessel. He asked for an assurance that the matter had received, or would receive, consideration.

could assure the right hon. Gentleman that the matter did receive consideration at the time; and he would add that it should receive the further attention both of his Office and of the Emigration Commissioners.

said, that having known for twenty-five years Captain Lean, the Emigration Surveyor of the port of London, he could testify that he was a conscientious and faithful officer, and that he troubled shipowners by being rather too particular. No man would look so much to the sails of a steamship as to those of a sailing vessel, and in the case of the London the Emigration Officer, having looked to the engines, took the word of the owners as to the sails. With respect to the loading of the London he had ascertained that it was quite in accordance with the rules of Lloyd's Emigration Commissioner, and that she had eight inches to spare out of the water. Therefore, Captain Lean and the Emigration officers were not open to the blame which had been imputed to them.

said, that the Vote for the London office, £6,031, and that for all other ports, £4,337, suggested the fear that there was a disproportion in numbers between the controlling staff and the working staff, and that, considering the duties to be performed, the subordinate officers were too few and were underpaid.

, in reference to the surgeons on board emigrant ships, wished to direct attention to the case of the surgeon of the East London, who, although he had been thirteen years in the emigration service, had been refused a re-appointment by the Emigration Office, solely, as appeared from the minutes of an inquiry held at Calcutta, because at the time of the wreck of the East London he failed to lodge a protest against the steamtug Elgin for leaving the East London. Considering the length of the surgeon's service and his unimpeached character, and especially that at the time of the wreck he was suffering from pleurisy and broken ribs, he was hardly used in being refused a re-appointment for so slight a neglect as the failure to discharge a duty which seemed to belong to a naval rather than to a medical officer.

said, this appeared to be a case of individual grievance perfectly well known to the hon. Baronet, but which had not yet been submitted to the Emigration Commissioners. [Sir MATTHEW RIDLEY: I beg pardon; it has.] At all events, it had not been submitted to him. All that he knew was that in the report of the Indian Commission some blame was attached to the Emigration Agent at the time; but the Emigration Commissioners were not able to take notice of it because the Emigration Agent died, and, of course, the matter was at an end.

said, the papers were in his possession, and he should be happy to place them in the right hon. Gentleman's hands.

said, that the Vote was for the establishment by the late Dr. Baikie of the station at the confluence of the rivers Niger and Tchadda, which was very important for purposes of trade. For one year they had little or no communication with Dr. Baikie who had gone up the river, and the expenses attached to the Vote referred to payments extending over some time for salaries of staff and contingencies. Dr. Baikie came down last year, but, unfortunately, he died at Sierra Leone before reaching this country. Whether the establishment would be kept up would depend very much on whether the Liverpool merchants would continue to send vessels up the Niger for purposes of trade.

hoped the House would not be alarmed by the protests of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) against establishments of this kind, which were in the highest degree desirable with a view to the maintenance of British interests. He trusted the trade up the Niger would be so great as to induce the Government to keep up the establishments which had been of such benefit to the country.

wished to know why that House should pay £3,500 because the Liverpool merchants for their own purposes sent out an expedition?

said, the Vote was necessary in order to keep up the credit of this country in those regions. It was necessary that trade should be protected, and that could be done only by a British Consul, whom they had promised to keep at the junction of the two rivers, if the merchants engaged in the trade on the Western coast of Africa declared their intention of navigating the Niger for commercial purposes.

said, he did not think that so large a sum as that proposed was really required. Although there was a diminution of £8,000 on the Vote as compared with that of last year, nevertheless, the fact of the American Government having joined us now in our endeavour to put down the slave trade, he considered that there ought to be a much larger reduction in the Vote,

said, there had not as yet been time to appreciate the advantage of the co-operation of the American Government, but next year he anticipated there would be a considerable diminution in the Vote; but it was generally a year, and sometimes two, before the accounts were made up.

reminded the Committee that the Spanish Government were also co-operating with us in the attempt to suppress the slave trade, inasmuch as they had sent bonâ fide instructions to their Captain General at Cuba to use his utmost energies in that direction; and as the American Government were also uniting with us to effect the same object, we might expect in future a very different state of things from what we had so long been accustomed to.

said, he was happy to announce the gratifying fact that during the last year there had been only one cargo of slaves shipped from the Westerns Coast of Africa, as far as he could learn. The Foreign Office had information of a cargo recently landed at Cuba, but it was immediately seized by the Spanish authorities. They had not ascertained whence it had come. Nothing could exceed the energetic and able manner in which General Dulce carried out the instructions which he received from his Government for the suppression of the slave trade. He believed it was entirely owing to these instructions and to the resolute conduct of the late Captain General of Cuba—for he regretted to say that his term of office had expired —that the importation of slaves in Cuba had ceased. Such had been the change of opinion in Cuba on the subject that a large and influential Society had been formed there, of which General Dulce was president, for the suppression of slavery and the introduction of free labour. If the objects of this society could be carried out the whole slave trade on the Western Coast of Africa would cease, and he trusted they would shortly hear no more of it. On the Eastern Coast it was quite another matter, and the trade there, he feared, was likely to continue.

asked whether the proceeds of the slave captures covered the amount of the bounties?

said, that they did not.

inquired by whom the trade in slaves was carried on on the East Coast of Africa?

said, the trade there was carried on in two ways. In the northern part of the East Coast of Africa it was carried on by the Arab tribes in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf; on the southern side by the tribes under the protection of Portugal chiefly. The Portuguese Government, however, were exerting themselves to put a stop to this trade. We had cruisers on the East Coast as well as the West Coast of Africa.

said, that the first item was for a Consul at Massowah, in Abyssinia; and after the painful experience we had had of the results of involving ourselves in Abyssinian politics, he thought the Government would do well to extinguish this consulate.

said, that notwithstanding the entry in the Estimates, Massowah was not in Abyssinia, though our Consul there had jurisdiction in that kingdom, but in the Turkish dominions. The imprisonment of the European captives in that country had had nothing whatever to do with our Consular establishment at Massowah.

observed, that there was a large increase of salary for the Consul at Rustchuck—from £200 to £850.

said, that there was a change in the administration of the Turkish Provinces. The Turkish Government had established three great jurisdictions, and a full Consul would be placed at Rustchuck, which would be the seat of the Governor. The allowances for Consuls at Varna and other places would be at the same time reduced, and a saving would be effected.

asked, upon what ground the civil salaries had been augmented, whilst the military salaries had been diminished. He did not complain of the increase in the former, but he thought it was disgraceful that our soldiers in Hong Kong were treated in such a niggardly spirit. He attributed the frightful malady amongst them at Hong Kong lately to this system which had been adopted towards them.

complained of the meagre information supplied them in relation to such large sums as those which comprised the Vote,

was of opinion that considerable reductions might be made in the Vote.

accounted for the augmentation in the Vote for civil salaries by the circumstance of certain legal changes having recently taken place in the places in question, which necessitated this augmentation. An officer had been sent out to China and Japan to ascertain what accommodation in the shape of buildings, &c, would be necessary for our Consuls and other officers in those countries. No satisfactory estimate could be formed at home of the value of the buildings required for our representatives in China and Japan.

said, the first item of this Vote would appear to carry on its face a reduction; but from the manner in which the information was given in the Votes it was impossible to say 'whether it was a reduction or not.

said, he imagined it had been reduced by £2,000 last year; the sum of £8,000 was considered excessive. It was now reduced to £6,000.

asked for an explanation of the £1,000 in the Miscellaneous Charges for the French Embassy.

said, he could not give a correct explanation of it. The hon. Member must see that many heavy charges were likely to be incurred by the Paris Embassy.

complained of the unsatisfactory manner in which the diplomatic expenses were brought before the Committee. Part was charged to one fund and part to another. They had now a piebald account, which did not show what the diplomatic charges had been. They ought to be paid out of one fund instead of as at present out of two funds.

said, the extra sum for the attaches was paid under Vote 22, in accordance with the recommendation of a Committee appointed to inquire into the diplomatic service.

wished to bring under the notice of the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the case of a British subject who was in some danger on a charge of deserting from the Swiss Army. The man claimed to be a British subject; but the Swiss Government claimed him as one of their subjects, it being alleged that he was a citizen of Geneva, and it would be as well if our Minister at Berne could make some inquiries into the matter with a view to his being absolved from the charge that had been made against him.

said, the case referred to was a very hard one, and it had occupied the attention of the Foreign Office. His right hon. Friend brought the subject under his consideration some time ago, and he had lost no time in making full inquiry into it. He only received yesterday a Report from the Law Officers of the Crown, and from it he feared the man had no case. It was a very difficult point of law, and he was afraid it would turn out that this person was not a British subject. His father was a British subject, but his grandfather was not, and the nationality of the grandfather decided the nationality of the grandson, and strictly speaking, therefore, he was not a British subject. He hoped the Swiss Government, as a matter of comity and good feeling, would release him from the penalties which he had involuntarily incurred in ignorance of what was his real status. Every exertion would be used by Her Majesty's Government to release him from the difficult position in which he was placed.

said, this person was born in London, and he could not see how the grandfather's accepting the citizenship of Geneva, when his son was thirty-three years of age, could deprive the grandson of his nationality—that of a British subject.

complained that the Votes in Class V. had been taken rather unexpectedly; and as he knew that an hon. Member, who was then absent, wished to make some observation on one of the Votes, he moved that the Chairman report Progress.

said, he wished to receive some explanation of the item set down for the conveyance of distinguished foreigners from Dover to Calais.

replied that that item was not included in the Vote under discussion.

took occasion to ask for an explanation of the sum of £21 17s. 6d., which was set down under the head of "Expenses for the conveyance of the Bishop of Kingston and his servant from Jamaica to Belize and back."

replied that the charge was one which was customary when a Bishop was obliged, as in the present instance, to go from one part of his diocese to another.

said, the item was one in the account for last year, and that its omission would not in reality effect a reduction of the Vote for the present year.

was ready, under those circumstances, to withdraw his Motion. ["No, no!"]

should like to know who those distinguished foreigners were to whom he had just referred.

said, the discussion must be confined to the matter immediately before the Committee, which was the striking out of the item of £21 17s. 6d.

renewed his inquiry as to who the distinguished persons were who were conveyed between Dover and Calais. He should like to know whether they were blacks or whites, and what objection there was to stating their names?

replied that he could not go into the details of the information which the right hon. Gentleman required. It was usual, when the guests of Her Majesty crossed the Channel between Dover and Calais, to convey them at the public expense. Their names were not given, because they were conveyed in special packets. Those whose names were given had been conveyed and entertained on board Her Majesty's vessels,

was quite aware that was so, but the list in the present instance appeared to be a very long one,

said, the charge for each of those special passages was £10, and there had been four of them.

having observed that a sum of £2,000 was asked for to defray the expenses of Mr. Palgrave, who went out to release Consul Cameron from his captivity in Abyssinia, he should like to know when Mr. Palgrave was appointed to that mission? How long he was employed on it, and generally, what were the results of his efforts in the matter?

should like to hear on what principle the various items in the Vote were charged. He found that, while the round sums of £2,000 and £1,500 were set opposite the names of Mr. Palgrave and Mr. Hutt, shillings and pence were very carefully given in other instances.

replied, that when the gross sums were put down as in the cases which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, it was because the money had been paid on account. With respect to Mr. Palgrave, as last year there was a strong feeling that sufficient was not being done—though he did not think so—to obtain the release of Consul Cameron and the other captives in Abyssinia, Earl Russell considered it to be his duty to take further steps to obtain their release, and he instructed Mr. Palgrave to proceed to Egypt, and from thence to Abyssinia in the event of Mr. Rassam's mission having failed. When Mr. Palgrave arrived in Cairo, Mr. Rassam had received the invitation from King Theodore, and Mr. Palgrave was ordered to remain at Cairo until the result of Mr. Rassam's visit to Gondar was known. When information had been received that it had been successful, Mr. Palgrave was directed to return to this country.

said, he did not think the explanation with regard to the conveyance of distinguished persons very satisfactory. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had said that the reason the names were not given was, because the distinguished persons were conveyed in special packets; but the names of the Duke of Cambridge and the Princess Mary, conveyed by special packets, were given, and he wished to know, therefore, why the names of the other distinguished persons were not given?

replied, that it was never the habit to specify by name distinguished foreign visitors to Her Majesty conveyed by special packets between Dover and Calais.

said, that the release of the Abyssinian captives was not due to the exertions of Mr. Palgrave, and he thought £2,000 a large sum to give him.

explained, that the sum of £2,000 was advanced when Mr. Palgrave was originally sent to Abyssinia, for the purpose of meeting the expenses of the mission. If the expenses did not amount to £2,000, the balance would be returned.

observed, that the expense of the mission for investing the King of Portugal with the Order of the Garter was put down at £659, and the expenses of the mission for investing the King of Denmark with the same Order was stated to be £915. He wished to know the reason of the difference in the two cases?

said, that since the system of unpaid attaches had been done away with in consequence of the Report of a Committee, and the junior members of missions had been paid, the class of attaches had signally improved during the last few years. The experiment had fully succeeded, and a highly competent body of men was now attached to the missions abroad.

asked, what course would be taken if the House got into Committee of Supply to-morrow? Would the Education Vote be taken?

said, the intention tomorrow was to take one Vote in the Army Estimates—that for Fortifications. After that they would take the remaining votes in Classes VI. and VII., but not the Education Vote. At eleven o'clock to-morrow night, he should move that the Chairman report Progress, and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would then take the second reading of the Customs Bill.