said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the sums, amounting in the whole to £27,643, stated in a Return dated 7th December, 1867 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 68, of the present Session), to be the estimated receipts in respect of the Eastern Mail Services outwards and inwards for four weeks, are calculated at the rates of postage in force at the time when the Return was made up, or at the present increased rates; and, in the former case, what may be the sum by which the Estimate of £27,643 may be expected to be augmented by reason of the increased charge; whether the sums receivable in India or elsewhere out of the United Kingdom are included in the estimate in question, so as to come in further diminution of the sum which may be voted for the conveyance of the Eastern Mails; and, whether an exact account is kept of the postages received or chargeable in respect of the said Services?

replied, that the receipts were calculated on the rates in force at the time when the Return was made up. If the increased rates now in force had been taken into consideration, there ought to have been an increase in the estimate of £2,900 per month. The whole of the sums receivable in India, as well as elsewhere, were taken into account in this estimate, and a separate account of the outward and inward postage was kept.

said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Poor Law Board, What were the grounds on which the Board accepted the resignation of Dr. Rogers, the late Medical Officer of the Strand Union; and, whether that resignation implied anything unfavourable to the character or to the professional ability of Dr. Rogers?

said, in reply, that the circumstances of the case referred to by the hon. Member were these:—In December last the Board of Guardians of the Strand Union called upon their medical officer. Dr. Rogers, to resign, and the matter coming before the Poor Law Board, they asked for an explanation of the reasons for such a step being taken. The Board of Guardians returned for answer that Dr. Rogers had, for a long time past, committed a series of indiscretions which rendered it impossible for them to work harmoniously together, and exhibiting a great want of courtesy in his communications with the Officers of the Board. The result was, that the Board thought it necessary to suspend him from his office. With respect to the second part of the Question, he could not do better than read the concluding paragraph of the Board's letter on the occasion, which stated—

"The Board are happy to be able to add that no blame can be imputed to you in reference to the discharge of your strictly professional duties, and the Board do not doubt that you have shown, zeal and ability in the performance of them. This adds to the regret of the Board that you should, from other causes, have rendered it necessary for them to accept your resignation."

said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether an order has been issued by the Governor General in Council in India—

"Relative to providing a room in the Lines of European Regiments in India to which the men can resort for private reading and prayer, and for holding prayer meetings and other meetings of a similar character, and directing that a room of a suitable size, with such furniture as may be deemed to fit it for the purposes above-mentioned, shall be considered one of the recognized requirements in the barracks of every British Regiment or considerable detachment of British Troops; and further that a residence will be assigned to a Scripture Reader in the married quarters."

, in reply, said, he had received no information on the subject of this order, although he had seen some reference to it in the newspapers. If such an order had been issued he would no doubt receive official information respecting it in a few days.

I think it would be convenient that the House should know the business it is intended to take this evening. There are four or five subjects of great interest and importance set down—Supply, the Mutiny Bill, the Controverted Elections Bill, and the Capital Punishments Bill.

Of course the arrangement of business for this evening will be greatly dependent on those Gentlemen who have Motions upon going into Committee of Supply, and if a considerable time is occupied with these, I must modify the proposed arrangements. In that case I shall not be able to proceed, as I could much have wished to do, with the Controverted Elections Bill, as I understand there is to be considerable discussion in Committee on the Mutiny Bill, and that is of so pressing a character. But if we go into Supply and obtain some Votes, then I shall avail myself of the privilege of going on with the Controverted Elections Bill. With respect to the Motion of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given notice on the subject of telegraphy, we anticipated that probably the House would be satisfied with hearing his statement, and that there would be no discussion on it, and therefore that it might be made at a very late period of the evening.

I beg to ask, what is to be done with the Capital Punishment Bill? I would also take the liberty of suggesting, with reference to the Telegraph Bill, that the subject is one of such novelty, and involving a number of complex details, that it would hardly be desirable for the House to proceed with it at a very late hour.

With respect to the Capital Punishments Bill, if it comes on late—and of course discussion is anticipated upon it—we shall not press it. If it is the wish of the House that the Telegraphs Bill should not be brought forward, of course we are in their hands, and shall not press it. In answer to Questions, the right hon. Gentleman added, that neither the Capital Punishments Bill nor the Controverted Elections Bill would be brought on after half-past ten o'clock.

, in rising to call attention to the position of Parliament in reference to the amendment of the Law of Bankruptcy, and to the expediency of introducing a Bill into the House for that purpose without delay, said, that the law as it now stood gave immense privileges to debtors, restrained greatly the rights of creditors, and vested large discretionary powers in the Judge. He ventured to say that the Law of Bankruptcy was one of the most important of laws in a commercial community like that of this country. The Bankruptcy Law was amended by Lord Westbury's Act in 1861, and in 1864 the number of bankruptcies had increased from 1,432 to 7,224, whilst the amount of assets had decreased about 50 per cent. In 1867 the number of bankruptcies had increased to 8,994. By Lord Westbury's Act it was provided that persons might become bankrupts on their own petition; and in 1864 there were of these 5,260, and in 1867 the number was 6,532, showing an increase of gentlemen who, having nothing to pay, chose to become bankrupt, of 25 per cent. In 1864 there were discharged without any punishment 5,335 bankrupts, and the number in 1867 was 6,902; but the amount collected had shrunk from £677,000 to £583,000. The number of bankrupts who had paid no dividend was no less than 5,876; and this, he submitted, could not be considered a satisfactory state of things. He indeed believed that the whole system had fallen into such a state that it was as bad as it could be. The figures to which he had referred did not at all show the extent of the evil; for the facilities given by the Act of 1862 for private arrangements had led to gross abuse, which reflected the greatest possible discredit upon the legislation of the country. Under the Act of 1862 composition deeds became a part of the Bankruptcy Law; and the number of them had since very largely increased. Their number in 1862 was 698, and in 1867 3,971, giving a gross amount of unsecured debts of £373,000, as against £8,246,432. The number of the deeds of assignment registered in 1862 was 1,886, in 1864 2,284, and in 1867 2,803; but the gross amount of unsecured debts had risen from £1,013,000 in 1862, to £5,725,592 in 1864, and £10,642,646 in 1867. The same result had occurred with deeds of inspectorship, which from 46 in 1862 had increased to 138 in 1867, showing a gross amount of unsecured debts of £190,400 in the former year as against £10,753,550 in the latter. No man could go into any counting-house in the City without finding the present state of the law strongly reprobated. It really would almost appear that the House of Commons had successfully endeavoured to invent some system by which creditors should be mulcted of the money to which they were entitled. Seeing how the Act of 1862 was working, the House in 1864 appointed a Committee which inquired very carefully and fully into the question, and afterwards made a Report, recommending the establishment of some cheap and simple mode of administering bankrupts' estates, such as the Scotch system. The Committee endeavoured to disentangle the question of punishment of debtors from that of the distribution of their estates, and they recommended the abolition of the Bankruptcy Courts, both the London and the District Courts. He could not say that these recommendations had been productive of much good. It was quite true that they caused the introduction of a Bill in the following Session; but that Bill was of so cumbrous a character and so little regarded the recommendations of the Committee that it soon ceased to exist. The Bill of 1866, though more formidable in appearance than its predecessor with its 480 clauses, required two Bills to prop it up, and was now considered useless. He thought that the House of Commons should be specially charged with a subject which was so intimately connected with trade, and he found with deep regret that this great question was relegated to the other House. He could not refer to what had occurred in "another place"; but he hoped to receive some information as to the principles of the Bill which the Government intended to bring before the House of Commons. The present law was a remnant of the old system of protection which governed all our commercial dealings two centuries ago. We began by protecting the creditor, and then went on to protect the debtor. The result was that we had a system of protection so perfect for the debtor, and so adverse to the creditor, that it was as discreditable to fair dealing as any of the worst cases of protection in the matter of trade which had long ago ceased to exist. It might be described as giving immunity to fraud, and as confiscating the assets of creditors. In 1865 the amount divided among creditors was £450,000, and to divide that sum it cost £375,000. When they coupled this with the fact that every man could make himself bankrupt and get discharged from his debts with the greatest immunity, he thought that it must be felt that there could not be a worse system. A debtor who did not want to pay his debts frequently said, "I court inquiry, and I will put my affairs into the Court of Bankruptcy," and under this threat creditors took anything they could get rather than lose the whole. When these matters were considered they could scarcely be surprised at the distress which paralyzed the country, and the effect of this vicious legislation had been greatly increased by the facilities given to Limited Liability companies. In his opinion the sooner they abolished the whole system of the Bankruptcy Law the better. He hoped that they would adopt the Scotch system, modified to suit the wants of this country. Small changes would be of no use, and whilst they retained the present staff of Bankruptcy officials the Bankruptcy system would never have the public confidence, and would not deserve to have it. He wished to know the principles upon which the proposed Bill was founded; whether it was in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee of 1865; and further, whether, instead of a Bill framed in cumbrous and tortuous language, it would not be possible to bring in a short and simple measure? If they did not do this they had better at once repeal the existing Bankruptcy Law, and do for one year without a Bankruptcy Law; for he was satisfied that this even would be a great relief to the commerce of the country.

said, that it would be very inconvenient for him to state the principles of the measure. The House was perfectly aware that a Bill had been brought in and read a second time in the House of Lords; and, in due course, he hoped it would come before the House of Commons, when they would have the advantage of the hon. Member's knowledge of the subject in discussing the measure.

expressed a wish to make some remarks upon this Vote. An influential deputation, composed of Volunteer commanding officers, had recently waited upon his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. The deputation was most courteously received, but its prayer was not granted—that prayer being that some increase should be made in the amount of the Grant voted for the Volunteer service. He (Colonel Barttelot) believed that, in the opinion of that House and the country, the Volunteer force was considered a most valuable though inexpensive one, and that it ought to be maintained in an efficient state. The question for the House and the country to consider was, whether such efficiency could be secured by a small addition to the existing Grant, or whether, by the refusal of the application made, they were running the risk of diminishing the force or causing it to dwindle away. It might be said that the force had not fallen off in numbers; but had, on the contrary, increased, and was increasing. That was no doubt true; but, nevertheless, subscriptions to the force were gradually declining; and the conse- quence was that a great amount of expense was thrown upon the force, and especially upon its officers. It was not, he believed, the wish of the House or of the country that that should be the case. If the force was to be kept up as a Reserve force some additional Grant must be made to it. All the Volunteers required was, that all expenses connected with drills away from head-quarters should be paid by the country. The Volunteers were willing to give their services to their country; but they considered that if they went to different places for the purposes of drilling for their country, that their country ought to pay their expenses. He thought that a Royal Commission ought to be issued to inquire into the whole question of the Reserve forces, of which the Volunteers were a valuable auxiliary.

felt that the Volunteer force must have been greatly disappointed at the answer given to the deputation the other day. The impression created in the minds of hon. Members, by the language used by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War last year, was that this subject would be well considered and that some addition would be made to the resources of the Volunteer corps. The Yeomanry force was actually paid while out for training. That was not required by the Volunteers; but he thought, if the public provided the funds for prizes to stimulate rifle-shooting, all other necessary expenses ought to be borne by the State, and especially that of clothing, which was a necessary article of Volunteer equipment.

, though not anxious to increase the public expenditure, thought that the Volunteers ought to receive something more than they did. The majority of the men composing the Volunteer ranks were workmen receiving weekly wages averaging from £1 to 30s. per week; and in their case, after three or four years' service, when their clothing was worn out they were unable to replace it, and were consequently lost to the service. The regimental subscriptions were always considerable, and the officers in command deserved the greatest possible credit for the pecuniary assistance they rendered. In India when men were specially employed they received an increased allowance. And he thought that when the Volunteers went to such places as Brighton or Portsmouth, it would be well to pay for their transit. Such casual allowances might be made without imposing any serious burden on the country.

Sir, I rise in the position of a Volunteer commanding officer, and as a duty which I owe to the service in which I am engaged; and I cannot help remarking that the question of an increase of the Capitation Grant is a much more serious one than many people seem to think. I shall, therefore, divide the remarks that I think necessary to make into three parts—namely, the past, the present, and the future, of the Volunteer movement. It is not difficult to describe the two former. With regard to the past, I will simply date back to the year 1859, and ask the Committee to remember what was the feeling which existed upon the question of invasion by France. It was, no doubt, an uneasy one, and one that was derogatory to the character and position of England; and if it had continued, most injurious to the interests of her trade and commerce. A remedy for this state of feeling was wanted. It was found by the bone and sinew of the country, who commenced the great national movement of defence; but which, for a time, did not inspire the necessary confidence. It must be, however, in the recollection of the Committee, that the movement did before long gain the approval and confidence of the country; and, from that time to this, a valuable and necessary armament has been recognized, possessing a great moral effect over Europe, settling the question of invasion, and dispelling alarm and panic, which would have been so destructive to every interest. So much for the past. With respect to the present position of the Volunteer service, it continues to exist. It exists partly upon the inadequate support it receives from the Government; partly, upon the support from private sources, and partly upon its own merits. It is more efficient than at any other period of its history. It has been mainly instrumental in the introduction of rifle shooting throughout the country. It has been instrumental in advancing science, in the manufacture of small arms, and it has produced the most remarkable skill in the use of those arms. Its discipline, its prestige, its morality, and its social element, are in a higher state of action than at any other time; and it is ready and anxious to continue to preserve those attributes, provided the Government of the day is willing to support it, and provide for its requirements; and this brings me to the important sub- ject of the desired increase of the Capitation Grant, which is not going to be given. Now, Sir, as a Volunteer commanding officer, I have received in common with every other commanding officer in the country, that ultimatum, and I have, therefore, no hesitation in saying that the axe has been laid at the root by that ultimatum; and that its continued existence and efficiency are endangered by it; and that we, as commanding officers, will be placed in a very awkward and delicate position. The time has arrived when some clear understanding is necessary, so that there may be no mistake as to the position in which we are, as the nation's guard of defence. This is the serious and natural view to take, and it bears especially upon the future position of the movement. Now, it has frequently been remarked that the Volunteer movement has taken deep root in the country. Sir, no institution can be said to have taken root at all, if it is neither self-supporting nor adequately supported by the Government; and it is partly for that reason that we have, on two or three occasions, recorded our almost unanimous opinion that the requirements of it cannot be much longer met with success, unless the Government consent to increase the Grant, for the purses of those who have always been friends of the movement are wearied out. Sir, that significant deputation which waited upon the Secretary of State for War, a few days ago, informed him, through the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire, what we, as commanding officers, considered to be necessary: that we did not ask as a favour, or a right, but that we considered our duty, both to the Government and the country, was to inform them of our opinion; and the noble Lord made it clearly understood that, in the event of an unfavourable reply, we should consider ourselves relieved from any responsibility should the Volunteer service collapse for want of support. We consider our opinion, as commanding officers, to be entitled to the fullest respect; and we cannot agree that the flourishing state of the service should be used as an argument against further aid from Government, for it would be a premium upon inefficiency and languor; and it is an unjust acknowledgment, after the extraordinary exertions that have been made to keep up the service in high efficiency and discipline for the honour and credit of the country. If the Volunteer movement is not worth any additional support from Government, it would be better that that policy should be declared, so that our position may be clearly understood. But, unless something more be done in support of the movement, we may all find ourselves in a serious scrape; some eight or ten years hence, when the present dynasty of France may have passed away, when our army may be engaged in some European war, and our shores denuded of the British bayonet, owing to the Volunteers of the country having dwindled down to a myth. We cannot now expect any additional Grant this year, owing to the heavy expenditure required by the army; but we ought to receive some assurance that our necessary requirements will receive the favourable consideration of the Government next year; for unless it can do so, consequences much to be regretted might ensue, against which our efforts would be powerless.

, in answer to the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. D. Griffith), said he supposed that the reason why the Yeomanry were paid and the Volunteers were not was, that the Yeomanry had to be away from home with their horses for eight days, while it seldom happened that the Volunteers were absent for a single night.

said, he had always been in favour of economy; but he thought it barely respectable for the country to take services which were admitted to be very valuable, and, at the same time, to allow poor men to put their hands into their own pockets for the purpose of rendering those services.

contended that all men performing the same service should have the same rate of pay. When he had asked whether the serjeant-instructors of Volunteers were to have the additional 2d. as the same class of men received in the army, he was told that the matter was under the consideration of Government. He wished now to ascertain whether that question had been settled?

said, that the other evening, while he was calling attention to some remarks made by the Secretary of State for War, the right hon. Baronet had interrupted him for the purpose of declaring that he had not made the statement attributed to him. Since then he had enjoyed the advantage of reading a very accurate report of the speech made by the right hon. Baronet, and found that it exactly corresponded with the views which he had expressed, and that the right hon. Baronet did, in fact, inform the House that it was his intention to put the Militia and Volunteer forces under the command of general officers of high standing in the different districts of England. He should therefore like to have some clear and specific explanation of the views of the right hon. Baronet on this point. In his reply, at the close of the evening, the right hon. Baronet stated that it was his intention to appoint officers of rank, who, in some way or other—he did not make it very clear how—were to have control over the Militia and Volunteer forces. Did he contemplate any proceeding which was to interpose any general officers, or any officer at all, with authority over those forces, between the Volunteer corps and Militia, and the Secretary of State for War? If he did, the matter ought to be very formally and distinctly brought under the consideration of the House. He apprehended it would be a wholly unconstitutional proceeding to divest the Secretary of State, for War of any part of his official responsibility in relation to the Militia or the Volunteers; and if any attempt were made, directly or indirectly, to place the Volunteer force under the control of general officers of the army, it must end in the total destruction of that body. The very essence of the Volunteer movement was that it was a spontaneous movement of the people, which should be carried on under the direct authority of the civil, without any intervention of the military power.

said, the intention of the Secretary of State for War was excellent—that of placing the Volunteers and other Reserves under a distinguished general officer, in order to effect as far as possible unity of action in the place of the present divided authority; but he did not see that the right hon. Baronet would be able to do more in time of peace by the change than was at present done by the inspectors. The Militia and Volunteers would never be required to be called out in the time of peace, and in time of war, then, ipso facto, they passed from these generals of Reserve to the complete control of the Commander-in-Chief as any other part of the regular army. There was a rumour abroad—he could not say whether it was correct or not—that Colonel Erskine had been, as it were, superseded; and that that gallant officer, who had been eight years intimately connected with the Volunteers (three or four years under Colonel M'Murdo) had been treated in this matter with scant courtesy by the right hon. Baronet. The change had been made without his knowledge, or any previous consultation with him; and the first notice he received of it was an intimation from the Secretary of State for War of a new appointment of an inferior character, and between £300 or £400 per annum less in amount. He very much doubted whether, in the interest of the corps, it would not have been advisable, if the Secretary of State for War, before making so great a change, would have taken so old an officer into his counsel, more especially as he knew from personal knowledge that Colonel Erskine had some scheme in view for brigading and otherwise re-organizing the force. As regards the Parliamentary Grant, he wished to observe that the deputation who had an interview with the Secretary for War on the subject did not apply in formâ pauperis. Neither did they profess to agitate on the question, or desire to come to Parliament to ask for an increased Grant; but it was his conviction that there was danger of the necessary expenses not being covered by the present Grant, and of a very large portion of the force falling away in consequence. It was thought right to make known that danger, leaving the Government and Parliament to decide whether it was necessary to take any steps in the matter. The Secretary of State for War had informed the House that the Government did not consider themselves justified in proposing this year an increase in the Grant; and what he (Lord Elcho) would suggest, was that the present state of the Volunteer corps with that of our Reserves in general, should form the subject of inquiry under a Royal Commission, and he intended to bring the subject before the House after the Easter Recess.

said, he should not then consider whether the whole question of our Reserve force should be referred to a Royal Commission; but it would be very desirable to make the grievance of the Volunteer corps the subject of such an inquiry. The difference between the Volunteer and Militia forces was such that the inquiry into one ought to be to a certain degree independent of the other. He hoped, therefore, that the Secretary of State for War would not consider himself precluded by the answer he gave the other day, from allowing this question to undergo a strict inquiry. The time had arrived when the inquiry of 1862 ought to be resumed, because at that time the Volun- teer force was so young that it was impossible to test the amount of expenditure that would be required by the officers and men in keeping up the force, and how far the Parliamentary Grant then proposed would meet it. He had received a memorial from 8,000 Volunteers in Scotland for presentation to the Secretary of State for War; but he had not presented it, because they were willing that their claims should merge into those of the general body. Many of the corps were now in a position which made it very uncertain whether they would be able, in consequence of the difficulty they experienced in obtaining officers, to keep up their efficiency. No doubt there were many officers who, by the same public spirit as led them to engage in the service, would be prevented backing out of it when they found the obligations falling on them rather too severely. Therefore they had a strong claim on the Government; and he hoped the House would not allow the matter to be settled by the declaration that, as long as the Volunteer force kept up their numbers, there was no occasion for any additional Grant.

hoped that the Secretary for War would give the House a fuller explanation than had as yet been afforded, respecting the scheme for the organization of the Reserved forces. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would state his views clearly and fully on that subject. His impression of what the Secretary of State said on a former occasion was that he had found it expedient for administrative purposes to concentrate certain offices in the hands of one general officer; and that he quoted a letter from the general commanding the forces in the North, to show that certain inconvenience arose from the present relations between the generals of districts and this auxiliary force. For his own part he must say—and his experience dated from the very commencement of the Volunteer movement — that a good deal of inconvenience now arose from the undefined relations between commanding officers of Volunteers, Volunteer associations, who endeavour not very successfully to provide the corps with locomotion, the assistant inspector, and the general of the district. It was quite true that, under the Act of Parliament, there was a line that might be drawn, which did clearly define their respective duties. But he could give very strong instances to show that great inconvenience did arise from this source. He had had to deal with three successive generals at Plymouth; and if there was one thing more than another that characterized them it was their extreme unwillingness to assume authority over the Volunteers, or do anything to complicate relations with their officers. Many things were now done by a kind of tacit understanding between the parties, which it would be better to put upon a certain footing. But these things required to be looked into, and it was possible the difficulties might be got over. After the reference which had been made by the noble Lord (Lord Elcho) to the case of an individual officer, whom he felt pride in calling his personal friend, he must be allowed to say that he hoped the right hon. Baronet would be able to show that Colonel Erskine had been treated in this matter with proper courtesy. He had heard nothing from Colonel Erskine; but the report alluded to by the noble Lord certainly was widely current, and he must say, if it should turn out that a Minister occupying the high position of the right hon. Baronet had treated Colonel Erskine with any want of courtesy, there never was an officer whose character and services less deserved such treatment. He believed there was no individual in the country to whom the whole Volunteer force owed so much as to Colonel Erskine. He did not know whether it would be better that the whole force should be under one general, or under respective inspectors; but if Colonel Erskine had incurred a loss of income to the extent of some £400 a year, and if, instead of being promoted, he had been placed in an inferior position, he hoped the right hon. Baronet would at least be able to show that he had made an economical arrangement, which, from present information, he very much doubted. It would be premature to express any opinion with regard to the proposal of the noble Lord for a Royal Commission to inquire into the state of the Reserve force generally; but, as colonel of an administrative battalion, he was able to state on the authority of his adjutant, that the ten corps under his command were in a good state of equipment, and if they had not a balance in hand they had not anticipated their future resources. Many of the gentlemen who commanded them had acted liberally, and he believed that the Volunteer force was most effective when it had partly relied on local pecuniary support. A relation of his, out of the ordinary resources, had been able to give his men great coats, and ano ther captain had supplied his men with capes out of the ordinary resources of the regiment. The country corps were at present allowed 5s. per head for battalion drill, but none was made to the town corps; and, in that respect, he thought a change ought to be made, and some such allowance given to the town corps to go to the butts and qualify for the position of extra proficients. But he did not think that for equipment and the ordinary expenses of the corps it was necessary to raise the allowance. The Volunteers had been a good deal petted by public confidence, and care must be taken lest people should begin to think that they were making themselves too expensive. He thought it very desirable that they should, if possible, increase their efficiency and discipline before asking for much more money. If they could not obtain money for brigade meetings he hoped the case would be considered before another year. But still he had great doubt as to the expediency of an indiscriminate increase of the Capitation allowance to any very large extent.

said, he was of opinion that unless some aid was afforded to the Volunteers they could not be kept at their present state of efficiency. The legitimate expenses of the Volunteer corps very much exceeded the amount they received from the Capitation Grant, and the commanding officers of regiments had generally a considerable amount to pay out of their own pockets. Even with the increased sum which was asked from the Government, he (Mr. Dillwyn) knew that he would still have to put his hand in his pocket, though not to the same extent. It was in fact a question, whether the Volunteer force was to be maintained on an efficient footing.

observed that the Secretary of State for War had informed the House the other night that it would be impossible to increase the Grant as a whole; but the Government should recollect that the object was not to increase the numbers of the force so much as to render the force efficient. For this end no arrangement was likely to be so serviceable as keeping them in the field with regular troops, and it would be worth while to allow them a field allowance for this purpose.

said, he thought that the time had arrived when no antique jealousy of the Crown should be allowed to interfere with the efficiency of either the Volunteers or the Militia. He understood the Secretary for War to propose that the Militia and the Volunteers should be under the command of one general officer; but he should suggest that both forces should be under the command of the general officer commanding the particular district. In the event of war, the Volunteers and the Militia must be brought into the general military organization of the country, and they must, in that case, be placed under the command of the officers commanding the various districts; and if they were now to be placed under separate command and kept distinct from the rest of the army great difficulties would be incurred in effecting the change at the time of the breaking out of war. By putting the Volunteers and the Militia under the command of the generals of districts those forces would be brought into more perfect union with the regular military service of the country, and would render them more like soldiers than they were at present, while it would greatly increase their general efficiency.

said, he not only could have no objection to what had been said by his hon. Friend behind him, but he could not dissent from a word he had heard on the subject, with the exception only of what fell from the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Colonel C. H. Lindsay), who went so far as to state his opinion that, because the Government had declined to accede to the propositions which had been made to them, they were indifferent to the success of the Volunteers. He was anxious to say that there was no foundation whatever for such an assertion. As far as he was personally concerned, he could only express his regret that the hon. Member should have made a statement in support of which he could give no good reason. Those who were members of that most important deputation, and those who heard his statement on Monday night could not accuse him of having giving utterance to any remark that would justify such an accusation being brought against him. In his opinion the Volunteer movement was a very noble one, and he appreciated most highly the value of the fine body of men it had placed at the service of the country. His Colleagues entirely concurred with him in looking upon the movement as the most striking and successful one that had taken place in any country in Europe for a long time. From the time of its commence- ment it had had a great effect upon the Continent; and it was a proof of the power of this country that it had been able almost in a moment to produce a defensive force of such great strength and efficiency. Under these circumstances it was clear that he could have had no intention to under-rate the importance of the Volunteer force. Her Majesty's Government had, however, to consider whether they could, consistently with their duty, accede to the request of the Volunteer officers for an increased Capitation Grant. He stated to that deputation that, so far as he had been able to form an opinion, the question was one that varied in different localities, and that if there were many places where an additional Grant would be convenient to the officers there were other places not thus situated. On Monday night he stated what were the facts and what was the reason why the Government could not, at this moment, grant the increase of the Volunteer expenses which they had asked. An hon. Member had spoken of the smallness of the increase asked for, and said it was a thousand pities that the Government had not increased the Grant. But the money was not small. The expense of the Volunteer movement, whatever might be its value, was £385,000 a year. Add £185,000 to the expenses, and, whatever might be his personal feeling to the Volunteer force, his belief was this, that if he had come down to the House and asked for an increased Vote of £185,000, numbers of Gentlemen opposite would have started up to ask upon what grounds he made such a proposal. He would have been asked whether the Volunteers were falling off in number; whether they were increasing their efficiency; and whether it was impossible that the movement could be supported by the allowance already made to them? He must remind the House that there had been a considerable change in the nature of the Volunteer movement since its commencement. The Volunteer force was originally intended to be a self-supporting force, and that it should consist of a class of men every one of whom should provide himself with uniform, and should pay his own expenses. He thought that, as far as the defence of the country was concerned, the Volunteer movement was worth all the money that it had cost us, and that it would be only advisable to give any moderately additional assistance which could really be shown to be necessary. His hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire (Mr. Acland) had referred, as he presumed, to the increase in the allowance which he had proposed in order to enable members of administrative battalions in the country to meet together for the purposes of batallion drill.

said, he intended to refer to the Grant made for that object, and he had suggested that money should be granted for the purpose of enabling battalions to take part in brigade field days.

said, he had proposed that increase because he thought that the case was one in which it might reasonably be given; and he should be ready to give his consideration to any case in which it was thought that a similar course might be attended with advantage. He would now turn to another matter, and he trusted that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) would not impute to him any disrespect when he stated that the hon. Gentleman had entirely mistaken what he had said on a former occasion. The hon. Gentleman had said that he had referred to his speech. The hon. Gentleman had in that case done more than he himself had done; but, whatever report the hon. Gentleman had consulted, he could only say that he was misinformed when he stated that it was his intention to place the Volunteers and the Militia under the general officers commanding in districts. He had not the slightest idea of doing anything of the kind. His hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire had rightly interpreted his intentions, which, however, appear to have been misunderstood by several hon. Members. Hitherto the Volunteers and the Militia had been placed under the command of three different persons. The Volunteers had been commanded—or rather, placed under the supervision of an officer of the rank of a colonel or lieutenant-colonel. The Militia were also placed under the superintendence and charge of an officer of the rank of a colonel or lieutenant-colonel; and the Army of Reserve were similarly commanded. His belief was, that it would be better to place these bodies under the direction of one instead of three distinct officers, and that that officer should possess a higher rank than that of colonel or lieutenant colonel. He had therefore placed these bodies under the supervision of a general officer of high rank; but he had not intended to carry the change any further, or to alter the re- lative authority of the commanders of the different corps, or their relations to the civil power. Under the new arrangement, the Secretary of State would be able so to improve the organization that the local authority would not, as hitherto, be deprived of the assistance of these forces in case of need. He would now turn to the remarks which his noble Friend the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) and his hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire (Mr. Acland) had made with regard to Colonel Erskine; and he regretted that he should be accused of a discourtesy, which he trusted was entirely alien to his nature or his character. His noble Friend had alluded to a circumstance which was the result of an accident—a mistake which was corrected and explained fully and frankly to Colonel Erskine himself, and he trusted, therefore, that he should not hear of it again. It had also been stated by the noble Lord that Colonel Erskine, on being deprived of his position in connection with the Volunteers, had been placed in the same position as the one which he had previously held.

said, he did not consider it a promotion; because, whereas Colonel M'Murdo had been promoted to the office of Inspector General of Volunteers, Colonel Erskine was only placed in the same position as that which Colonel M'Murdo previously occupied.

said, that his desire had been throughout to treat Colonel Erskine with the greatest possible fairness and consideration, and it was in that spirit that he was led to offer Colonel Erskine the command of the Military Train, which had been rendered vacant by the lamented death of Colonel Kennedy, who had fallen a victim to the exertions in connection with the Abyssinian war. He had been sorry to hear the hon. Member for Devonshire say that he had fined Colonel Erskine £400 a year. He did not know what the difference was between the value of the two appointments. [Mr. ACLAND said, that the effect of the change was to decrease Colonel Erskine's income between £300 and £400 a year.] Whatever it was, it was only a matter of two years; for at the end of that time Colonel Erskine's command as inspector-General of Volunteers would have come to a termination. He believed, however, that he had appointed Colonel Erskine to a superior position; and if anything should occur to interfere with the permanence of the present arrangement, it would of course be their duty to make some provision for its effects as far as Colonel Erskine was concerned. He had not proposed the new arrangement with any special view to economy; but its results would be to produce a slight reduction of expense. The hon. Member for Lanarkshire (Sir Edward Colcbrooke) had suggested an inquiry into the present state of the Volunteer force; but it was not necessary for him then to enter into that question, because the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire had given notice of his intention to bring forward the same subject, though in a larger form, and when the noble Lord did so he should, for his own part, be prepared to give his best attention to the matter.

explained that, in the remarks that he had made, he had spoken not for the Volunteers generally, but only for his own battalion.

felt very strongly that it was not desirable it should go forth in any way to the public that the Volunteer commanding officers came to the House of Commons asking for money in formâ pauperis. He protested against any such impression getting abroad, as it was possible it might do, when the hon. Member for Devonshire (Mr. Acland) said it was very likely that some officers might want more money to spend. They had heard a good deal about Government by minorities. Well, it looked to him very much as if on that question of the Volunteer force they were carrying on Government by a minority, because his hon. Friend who had spoken represented a small minority of that force. Both last year and this year every means had been taken to ascertain the real opinion of the force on that point, and he now ventured to say, speaking not as an individual or in the name of the London commanding officers only, but speaking advisedly in the name of the Volunteer force in general, that their deliberate opinion was that that force could not be maintained at its present strength with the present Capitation Grant. A commanding officer was sitting near him who spent a large sum annually upon his corps; and another Gentleman, also a Member of that House, informed him that his regiment cost him £200 or £300 a year. Their point was this, that in their opinion it was requisite to call the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the fact that the necessary expenses of Volunteer corps were not covered by the Parliamentary Grant, which had to be largely supplemented by the subscriptions of the officers and men, and also, at the same time, to express the strong feeling which they believed to pervade the Volunteer force that those who freely and without pay gave their services to the State should be relieved from the necessity of incurring such personal expenditure. His right hon. Friend said the original intention of the force was that every man was to bear his own expenses. That might have been the theory; but in practice it could not be carried out, and a Commission in 1862 recommended Parliament to give the Volunteer corps a Capitation Grant of £1. It was proved before that Commission that two-thirds of the force were composed of artizans and men of the labouring class. Therefore, if they wished to keep up that force, and to relieve the officers from the unfair expenditure to which they were now put, Parliament must, sooner or later, be prepared to increase the Grant. But he might state that the officers had made up their minds to do nothing further—never to send another deputation to the War Office—never to make another appeal in that House; that having now finally laid their claims before the House and the country, they left it to the Government to say what steps they would take to recognize them. If it could be shown that the existence of the force depended upon whether 20s., 30s., or 40s. was sufficient, he believed, in opposition to his hon. Friend, that the country would deem that a sufficient ground for an inquiry. At any rate, in 1862, it was deemed sufficient ground for an inquiry. But he did not propose that the inquiry should be limited to so small a point as that; but that it should be full and complete, embracing our whole system of military organization, with reference to its capabilities for expansion in time of war and for home defence. That was the question which he intended to bring before the House after Easter, and the incidental point now raised might fairly form part of the inquiry.

said, he thought it was desirable to have a wider range of selection for the commanders of Volunteer corps than they had at present. At present the class was extremely limited, because the commanding officer must not only have some knowledge of military matters, but he must be able from his own means to keep a horse, and to be prepared to spend from £300 to £600 a year upon his regiment. He thought this limitation was a very serious one, and one that ought to be abolished.

said, he believed that, under ordinary circumstances, the House would be disposed cheerfully to vote any reasonable amount that might be requisite for the Volunteer force; but he thought it might be preferable to give them the clothing, and leave the Capitation Grant as it stood.

wished to know, when the instructions relative to the Army Reserve and to the Militia Reserve would be issued; as it was very important that they should be issued before the Militia were called out.

said, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would take this opportunity to tell them what had been done, up to the present time, with the Army Reserve; and, whether anything had been done, or was presumed to be done, with regard to the Militia Reserve. Last year the right hon. Gentleman took a Vote of £30,000 for Volunteers in the Militia engaging to serve in a Militia Reserve Force, and £20,000 for men volunteering by commutation of service for enrolment in the Army Reserve Force. They had heard a great deal last year of these Reserve forces; but he could not hear that anything had been done.

said, the noble Lord referred to this question on Monday last, and had charged him with having made no reference to this subject in his general Statement. The noble Lord was mistaken. He stated then—what he was prepared to repeat now—that one very important step had been taken, and that in accordance with the plan of the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), the Government had decided that the entire corps of the Militia should be raised up to its increased quota—half the battalions in the present year and the other half next year. Last year, before the change was decided on, the Militia regiments were 5,000 below the strength of their reduced quota. But when the order was given to raise the regiments to their full quota recruiting commenced, and was so successfully carried on, that, instead of the force being 5,000 below the reduced quota, it was now only 2,300 below the increased quota for the present year. With regard to the issue of the regulations to which the hon. Baronet had referred, the only reason why they had not been laid upon the table of the House was that before doing so he wished to have the opinion of General Lindsay respecting them, as he would have so large a share in carrying them into effect. The men were allowed to commute a portion of their army service for service in the Reserve; and the Vote of £7,000 for the probable number of men who would engage under the Army Reserve Act, 1867, was intended to cover the expense of whatever men they were able to obtain. But General Lindsay would enter upon his duties in a few days, and the regulations would be laid on the table of the House immediately after Easter. The noble Lord did not appear to be sanguine, and he could not say that he was sanguine either, as to the success of the scheme of a Reserve force.

said, it seemed to him that the original intention of the Government on that subject had not been carried out. It was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to commence the formation of the two forces last year; but he gathered from his statement that not a single man had yet joined either the Militia Reserve force or the Army Reserve force.

said, that the first step he had taken to carry out the Act was to increase the number of the Militia.

said, that certain charges for police, &c., were transferred from Votes 3 and 12 to this Vote, and they swelled the Vote in appearance, although the sum asked for was not greater in reality. The Vote included a proposal to spend £20,000 upon hospitals for contagious diseases.

called attention to the increase that had taken place in the establishment charges. In 1863 these charges amounted to £78,000, and they had risen to the present charge of £100,544. In 1859–60 we did work amounting to £1,455,000, and the establishment charges for that year were only £56,526. In 1860 we did work to the amount of £1,752,000, and the establishment charges were £62,500. This year the Estimates for work to be done amount to £867,000, yet the establishment charges exceed £100,000. That seemed to him a most unnecessary increase, and he hoped that some explanation would be given. From a comparison of Returns which had been obtained in the years 1857 and 1867 respectively, he found that there had been a decrease in the barrack accommodation to the extent of accommodation for 2,000 men. Yet, in the intervening ten years, we had spent in brick and mortar, in one way or another, no less than £9,583,000. Naturally, one would have imagined that the barrack expenditure in colonial and tropical climates would have been very heavy compared with the outlay at home. But he found that we had spent during that period four times as much upon barracks at home as we had done in the colonies. With regard, again, to married soldiers' quarters: it was proposed now to devote no less a sum than £935,000 towards that object, in addition to £240,000 already voted; but it seemed that it had taken no less than ten years to spend that sum of £240,000; instead of providing, as seemed the natural course, whatever accommodation was required for married soldiers at once. At the same rate of expenditure it would take twenty-two years to expend this Vote of £935,000 upon the housing of married soldiers; and it seemed doubtful whether the expenditure was necessary when they could spread it over thirty years — at all events the House ought to be informed in this and every other case what increase of accommodation is secured for the money spent.

called attention to what, he said, formed a serious departure from the usual mode of stating some of the items of the present Vote. In the case of any Vote proposed for the first time and involving further liability, it was usual to set out in the first column of the Estimates the total amount which the Department had it in contemplation to expend upon that particular object. And having dealt thus frankly with the House, the Government were able to come down in any subsequent year, when a further instalment of the money was asked for and objected to, and say that, to some extent, an implied sanction has been given by the House to the total expenditure when the matter was originally broached in the Estimates. This year, however, items, which last year gave no indication of being parts of a great whole, were stated in the Estimates as forming part of a total estimated outlay of £1,416,000, of which part had been voted in previous years. This would throw anyone off his guard, and was a very improper way of stating the items. Again, with regard to the two items of £75,000 each, for alterations to works for a revised armament in the principal sea batteries at Gibraltar and Malta, he thought it should have been stated that these sums were in excess of the original Estimate of £470,000, whereas he found no reference to past expenditure under this head. As to the proposed expenditure for additional barrack accommodation at Chelsea, such accommodation was probably wanted; but an explanation should have been given on the subject. The expenditure at Woolwich of £70,000 for storehouses for miscellaneous stores from the Tower he held to be perfectly unnecessary; for abundant accommodation might be placed at the disposal of the War Office by the Admiralty, as the abandonment of Deptford dockyard was contemplated. He did not know whether the Vote of £3,000 now proposed would pledge the Committee to the expenditure of the remaining £67,000.

, calling attention to the charges attending the camp at Aldershot, urged the desirability of adopting the recommendation of the Royal Commission by dispensing with a permanent encampment. The buildings were liable to constant expenditure for repairs, and it gave great dissatisfaction, both to officers and men, to be kept in camp during the winter. It would be much better to keep the troops in barracks in different parts of the country, and march them to these places temporarily, keeping them under canvas there. It was also desirable that as many officers or generals as possible should have the opportunity of commanding large bodies of troops, and such appointments should therefore be made yearly, instead of only once in five years.

called attention to the charge for the surveyor, deputy surveyors, &c., of the Royal Engineers. He objected to an increasing establishment as an insidious thing which they could not get rid of. He remarked that while there was a decrease in one Department of the least paid officials from twenty-seven to twenty-two, there was an increase of the higher paid from twenty-nine to thirty-two. He called attention to the increase, not only of the clerks, but of military foremen, and asked why it had taken place. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would, at his earliest convenience, give some explanation of the increase in the establishment to which he referred.

wished to say a few words about the camp at Aldershot. He had the honour of sitting in the House when the camp was first projected, and he then raised his voice against it. They had been told, with great truth, that one of the causes of the great losses which our troops suffered in the first Crimean campaign was that they did not know how to kill their meat, to forage, or to perform the other duties incident to the position in which they were placed; and the French troops had a great advantage over them because they had been instructed in routine field work. It was proposed, therefore, to form a camp at Aldershot to give a training to our soldiers, and that was all very well. But in a short time those large barracks were built at immense outlay. He would venture to say that it would have been infinitely better to have spent the money on improving the various barracks in London, some of which were a disgrace to the army. Aldershot, instead of being a camp, was now a large military town, and a military town of the worst description, and was extremely unpopular among the men. When a soldier came home from foreign service, instead of being allowed to go into country quarters or to see his friends, he was sent to Aldershot. He hoped that Aldershot would not be so much used as a winter quarter for the future. It might be available, however, in the summer months. He quite agreed with what had been said by his hon. Friend about the change made in the Estimates. It was a dangerous change. Close upon £40,000 had been spent, and spent wisely, on the establishment at Pimlico, and a large yearly rent was now paid for it. There was no doubt that there would be ample room for all the Woolwich stores in Pimlico.

said, that whenever he attempted to cut down a Vote for works he was always told that the works were in progress, and that it would be impossible to make any reduction. Last year, when a new item crept into those Estimates, he and his Friends thought they should make an effort to reduce the Vote; but when they went to a division, they were, of course, beaten, the House being always in much the same condition when they were voting away millions, and there being always a number of Members ready to rush in from the gastronomical Department to support the Minister. In this Vote 14 there were some most objectionable items. The other evening they had a debate as to the military cost of the colonics; but the Vote taken on that occasion by no means represented the whole cost, because in this Vote would be found very large items with reference to those very colonies. For instance, it was proposed to spend £202,000 for the defence of the Mauritius. He doubted whether anyone was ever going to attack the Mauritius; but, in any case, the money would be only thrown away. It was utterly impossible to defend that island by any such expenditure, and by retaining in it two battalions of troops. Mauritius, if to be defended, must be defended by sea, and to spend so much money upon works there was to throw a great burden upon the taxpayers of this country. The whole of the columns of the Estimate book contained similar extravagant charges; and he could wish that some gentleman of military position, like his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lichfield (Major Anson), would take the sense of the Committee upon it. That would be the only way to prevent such an outlay in future. He had no hesitation in saying that a great portion of the expenditure upon barracks and works was caused by the erroneous system that was pursued. There was no man in the House that had a greater respect for the Engineers than he (Mr. Otway) had; he looked upon them as an unsurpassed corps, but they were the most expensive and extravagant set of men in dealing with public works that could possibly be found. They were greedy, not of money, but of work; they tried to monopolize everything, and the consequence was that the country was put to vast expense for repairs which it would be spared under a different system. Let the Committee conceive the idea of an officer in a barrack who had the lock of his door out of repair. Before he got it repaired he had to apply to an Engineer officer, who had to speak to the contractor; and it could not be put to rights without the contractor's permission, or by any man not employed under the Engineer. The colonel of a regiment was intrusted with the happiness not alone of the 600 or 800 men whom he commanded, but of their wives and children, and yet he could not be intrusted with the ordering of a lock out of repair to be set right. They had all heard of the story about the bellows; but there was a similar story about a pump, concerning which a correspondence had been going on for years, and was, he believed, still going on. He had asked the commander of a foreign regiment if a pump was out of order what he would do, and he said he would of course direct that it should be mended. When asked by whom? he answered, "By my soldiers." And when the case was put—"Suppose there were no soldiers that could do it," he seemed to think that an absurd supposition, because a regiment contained artificers of every class; but he replied he would order a proper workman to go and do it. Now what he wanted to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman was the necessity for a greater employment of military labour. If the right hon. Gentleman would consult the most distinguished Engineer officer this country had possessed for many years, Field-Marshal Sir John Burgoyne, be would find that a great economy might be effected by the employment of military labour. He was told that the experiment was now being tried in the Isle of Wight. All that was wanted was to develope the system, and he ventured to say that a very large reduction would soon be made under the head of barrack repairs.

said, that soldiers really required something to do. The other day a deserter was brought before him when sitting as a magistrate, and he said to the prisoner, "You are an intelligent young man—why did you leave the army?" The answer was, that he hated the army—that there was nothing but drill, drill, everlasting drill, day after day, and that it was perfectly intolerable.

was of opinion that nothing tended so much to make the army unpopular as Aldershot. It would be very well to send men to encamp there occasionally; but to condemn them to winter quarters in those vile huts had a very mischievous effect.

concurred with the hon. Baronet as to the effect of Aldershot as winter quarters. He could not expect men returning from twelve or fifteen years of foreign service to like being sent to Aldershot or the Curragh. It was a mistake, however, to suppose that soldiers had nothing to do in connection with their military drill, and that they had much time at their disposal for the work which had been alluded to.

asked for some explanation of the item of £10,000 for old forges and shops.

inquired how much it was proposed to spend on military billiard-rooms this year? [An hon. MEMBER: £3,000.] If that is so, I shall move an Amendment to it.

said, there had been a great many inquiries and criticisms on this Vote; but he could not help expressing his sense of the courtesy with which they had been made. As to the remarks of his hon. and gallant Friend and the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen (Colonel Sykes) on the establishment charges, he had to say that the increase to which they referred was to be attributed to the transfer to that Vote of charges previously made in other Votes. With respect to what his hon. and gallant Friend had said on the great expense for barracks as compared with the accommodation afforded, this was the result of the anxiety manifested by the House for the health and comfort of the soldiers. Under existing regulations one-third more cubic space was provided for the soldier than had been hitherto afforded to him. He believed that this was a very great improvement; but the House would at once see that one of its consequences must be that the expense, as compared with the actual accommodation of a given number of troops, must be greater than it had formerly been. His hon. and gallant Friend had complained that the War Department was not proceeding as rapidly as it ought to do with the married soldiers' quarters. This showed how careful they had to be in preparing these Estimates. On the one hand, they were liable to be accused of extravagance; and on the other, they were open to attacks for not doing this and not doing that. He was as conscious as his hon. and gallant Friend of the importance, for the propriety and respectability of the army, of providing a sufficiency of married soldiers' quarters as soon as possible. But this was attended with very considerable expense, and therefore it had been thought advisable to proceed gradually. The sum voted this year was £30,000 for this purpose, and he believed that that sum would be asked in succeeding years, although, as far as he was concerned, he was sorry that he could not ask double that sum. He was afraid that they must look forward to even a larger expenditure than that which now existed. With regard to the comments of his hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) on the exceptional form of the Estimates, it would be very presumptuous in him to criticize the decisions of high authorities at the Treasury, of whom, but a short time ago, his hon. Friend was not the least distinguished; and he (Mr. Childers) knew that in these matters the other Departments had to pay some deference to the opinion of the Treasury.

said, he had not objected to the form of the Estimates; but been introduced that year ought to have been noticed.

said, he was not the champion of the form in which these Estimates appeared, and admitted that his difficulty in explaining the Estimates was much increased by not bringing the charge of the current year in close juxtaposition with the charge of last year. With regard to the estimated expenses in the last column, he did not at all intend thereby to involve the House in any pledge. He very much doubted whether it did pledge the House; it was intended only as a frank statement of the final cost of the works commenced. As to the charges for Malta and Gibraltar, they were only to defray a particular outlay; and he would not disguise from the Committee that, in all probability, if these two fortresses were to be placed in a proper state of defence, they must look forward to a much larger expenditure than anything entered either in the present Estimates or in those of last year. Another item alluded to by his hon. Friend was the expenditure proposed on account of Chelsea Barracks, and here his hon. Friend was under some misapprehension. It was thought desirable to extend the barrack accommodation at Chelsea, with a view to set free the St. George's Barracks, behind the National Gallery, for a recruiting depôt. In carrying out the new regulations with regard to recruiting, and those improvements in the system which were mentioned in the Commissioners' Report, a good recruiting depôt in London was found indispensable, and the most convenient place was the St. George's Barracks, which would accordingly be appropriated for that purpose, while the Chelsea Barracks would accommodate the Guards heretofore quartered there. Then there was the proposed new store accommodation, and he doubted whether any one charge in all these Estimates was of more pressing necessity than this. Ever since the Crimean War our stores had been huddled together in a ditch at the Tower in the most unseemly, inconvenient, and extravagant way. Hon. Members would recollect the painful alarm that arose some months ago as to the possibility of acts of outrage in London. He did not feel at liberty to disregard the remonstrance, pressed upon him from the highest quarters, lest damage should be done to these stores. They were close to the east angle of the Tower, exposed to injury by fire thrown over the wall; and upon representations made by competent officers whom he had appointed to inspect the Store Department, he ordered the stores to be at once removed. They were very large in quantity and very valuable; and, having no place to put them, he was obliged to distribute them all over the country — a measure not only inconvenient, but costly. Under those circumstances, he arranged for the purchase of a large building on the banks of the Thames, opposite Woolwich, but legal difficulties unfortunately occurred, and he was unable to proceed with the purchase. His hon. Friend said, "Why did you not put them at Deptford?" He was desirous to put them there, and sent to inspect the site. But it was absolutely necessary to have a water access, and the Admiralty would not part with any portion of the yard which had a water access. The only remaining point he had to notice was the reference that had been made to Aldershot. On this point, he (Sir John Pakington) thought there was some misapprehension. He was asked to relieve the soldiers from the inconvenience and annoyance of being quartered there in the winter. Now, the reports which reached him were that regiments returning to this country were far from objecting to Aldershot. For the sake of the soldier and of the country, however, he thought it was desirable that considerable portions of the troops should be sent into barracks in country quarters; and had it not been for the unfortunate outrages which occurred in connection with Fenians, arrangements would have been made with this view. But great expense arose in moving soldiers about the country, and he wished to check the expense of unnecessary marches. He would not therefore venture upon pledges which he might not find convenient, or, perhaps, even agreeable to the soldier, to carry out; and he could only assure the hon. Baronet that he thought the recommendations of the Committee worthy of careful consideration.

concurred in the wish that the Estimates had been more clearly prepared. He trusted that the Civil Estimates when produced would be found to be arranged, not after the fashion of the Army, but of the Navy Estimates. He wished to say a word about the storehouses at Woolwich. He was far from saying that more store accommodation was not needed at the Tower. But the Admiralty had valuable property at Woolwich and at Deptford suitable for storing purposes; and he did not see why the Admiralty and the War Office might not have referred the matter to the Treasury for settlement. The First Lord of the Admiralty had stated that he would abandon Deptford, and, after a time, Woolwich, as far as shipbuilding was concerned; but Deptford was the best store receiving place in the Kingdom; and it would therefore be a great waste of money to spend £70,000 for new storehouses at Woolwich. He trusted that the Admiralty and the War Office would come to some arrangement in regard to this matter.

reminded the hon. Gentleman that he could not prepare these Estimates in reference to an opinion uttered by his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty only a few days ago. He should be glad, however, to come if possible to an arrangement with the Admiralty, in which event the proposed expenditure would of course be unnecessary.

remarked that the right hon. Gentleman had adverted to the possibility of sending a portion of the Guards away from the middle of London to a most inconvenient barrack at Chelsea. Two years ago, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper) suggested that the barracks behind the National Gallery might, perhaps, be done away with at some future time. On the very night that suggestion was made he chanced to walk from the House to Hyde Park, and there found a mob busily engaged in knocking down the railings. That circumstance plainly showed the impolicy of carrying out the suggestion, as these barracks were of great importance for securing the tranquillity of the metropolis in the event of disturbances breaking out.

said, the whole matter had been duly weighed and considered before it was determined to remove the barracks to Chelsea.

said, he hoped that the sum of £3,000 proposed for the new storehouses would be omitted.

assured his hon. Friend that no premature step should be taken; and that he would make inquiries to see whether there could be any arrangement which would render the proposed expenditure unnecessary.

said, he had intended to move the omission of the item of £3,000; but would not do so if he received an assurance that the matter should be decided by the Treasury.

said, he intended that the matter should be referred to the Treasury.

moved to omit from the Vote £3,000 for billiard tables. He did not see that we were bound to provide the officers of the army with billiard tables, any more than we were bound to provide them with card tables, fowling pieces, or horses for fox-hunting. It was also desirable for the sake of the young men themselves that they should not be encouraged to frequent billiard rooms, which were often so full of tobacco smoke that one could hardly see from one side to the other. This created lassitude, and the frequenters of the rooms could not always very well tell what they were about. It was too much to ask the public to find amusement for young men who entered the army. If their wages were too small, let them ask for more.

remarked that the worthy Alderman had fought this battle of the billiard board last year with great gallantry, and had been defeated. The item for billiard tables was inserted last year for the first time by the right hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon (General Peel) and the worthy Alderman could hardly have forgotten the grounds on which the Committee allowed it. The Committee was influenced by these two considerations—first, that the officers' pay was very small, compared with the position they occupied, and secondly, that it was of great importance that officers in the various stations should have every inducement held out to them to engage in innocent recreation and amusement. Upon these considerations the Committee determined, by a considerable majority, to promote their amusement by providing billiard tables. He trusted the Committee would see the force of the arguments adduced last year, and not refuse to grant this Vote.

said, he should vote with his hon. Friend (Mr. Alderman Lusk) if the Motion were pressed to a division.

said, that this question had been so often argued in the House that he should not dwell upon it at any length. Last year he showed that corporal punishment had failed as a remedial measure; that those soldiers who had been subject to it had become worse men; and that, in modern armies, with one exception, corporal punishment had been abandoned. In the Russian army he believed the lash was still administered; but even there it was more equitable than with us, seeing that not only private soldiers, but officers, and even noblemen, were occasionally subject to the infliction. The question had very much progressed since it had last; been discussed in that House, although in the House itself the cause had retrograded; their proceedings with respect to the practice having been something like the Pyrrhic dance — a step forward and then another backwards. Although flogging had been abolished for certain offences, the distinction which had before prevailed was abolished. Formerly all soldiers when first enlisted belonged to the first class, on which corporal punishment could on no pretence be inflicted; but, in a weak moment, the Minister for War yielded to the representations of Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and abolished the distinction of classes which Lord Herbert had pronounced to be the great protection of the soldier. It might be said that this question should not be discussed now, because the larger question of Courts martial was submitted to a Royal Commission. Of late an extraordinary theory of Government had been acted upon when difficult questions were for settlement, which was to relieve the Executive of its responsibilities by referring the matter to a Royal Commission. Passing that by, the Royal Commission in question could not command the confidence of the country. With the exception of the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread), until the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Captain Vivian) was appointed the other day, the Members of that Commission had, by voice or vote, expressed themselves in favour of corporal punishment. Yet he assumed that the most important thing to be decided by the Royal Commission was this very question of corporal punishment. Pending the decision of this Royal Commission, he maintained that it was important that the punishment of the lash should be suspended. What would be the feelings of any man who was punished while the question was under consideration? And who were the men on whom we inflicted this degrading punishment? In all times, from the days of Cressy and Agincourt to those of Waterloo and Lucknow, the British soldier had been a model of valour and discipline, and yet he was to be subjected to the same degradation as a cowardly garotter or a convicted felon. Parliament had recently admitted the fathers and brothers of British soldiers within the pale of the Constitution; let them do one thing more—let them endeavour to elevate the soldier rather than degrade him; let them make him feel that he was the armed citizen of a free country. In conclusion, he moved to omit part of the clause, and to insert—

"No court martial shall for any offence whatever committed under this Act during the time of peace, within the Queen's Dominions, have power to sentence any soldier to corporal punishment."

said, that considering the present position of the question, he should not think it necessary to follow the hon. Member at any length. He would merely remind the Committee that very great concessions were made upon this subject last Session. Corporal punishment was now in a very different position from that in which it had ever been before. The Government had recommended the appointment of a Royal Commission, which was to inquire not only into the constitution of Courts martial, but into the whole system of military punishments. Under these circumstances, he hoped the hon. Member would not press his Motion.

said, he rose to correct two inaccuracies of the hon. Member for Chatham. Before last Session men might be flogged for mutiny and insubordination, whether they were in the first or second class, and that rule was continued; and besides the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread), there was another unpledged Member of the Royal Commission, and that was himself. Last year he expressly guarded himself against giving any opinion as to whether corporal punishment ought to be done away with or not. As the subject was now before a Commission, of which he was a Member, he must abstain from taking part in any division upon it.

said, last year he voted against the continuance of corporal punishment, and he held the same opinion still; for he believed it would be a good thing if the right hon. Gentleman would state that it should be abolished — that would, he thought, tend to increase the morâle of the army more than anything else; but the House had been informed that he had been appointed a Member of the Royal Commission; and, after consulting the other Members of it, he felt it was a delicate matter to give a vote upon a question which that Commission had to try. Therefore he trusted that the question would not be pressed to a division.

said, that having the honour of being Chairman of the Commission which had been alluded to, he also should refrain from voting on the present occasion.

observed, that last year it was said by the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway) that men were deterred from entering the army by the existence of corporal punishments. Now, the fact was that, during the last year, 26,000 men had re-enlisted; and this was a larger number than those for the whole seven years before amounted to, and recruiting had during the year enormously increased. The cases of corporal punishment had also during the year amounted in number to only seventeen for the whole army. They, at this time of day, were rather in favour of jumping to conclusions all of a sudden. Much improvement had taken place in the army, and this was caused to a great extent by the measure of the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), who increased the pay of the soldier 2d. a day, and the consequence was that they were getting better and more contented men. As a proof of this, he might mention that out of the 812 men who composed his own battalion, there were only two who could not sign the pay-book. He hoped that corporal punishment would grow less yearly; but his own opinion was that, for the ruffians who were in the army — for there were some such—there ought be retained the power of inflicting corporal punishment, which power should be exercised with discretion and with great reluctance.

said, that the strongest statement in favour of the Amendment was that there had, in the year, been only seventeen cases of corporal punishment, whilst enlistments were largely increased by the extra 2d. a day. This being so, there was no reason why they should not send the seventeen bad bargains packing, and do away with this degrading punishment.

moved an Amendment. The hon. Member explained that, according to the present regulations, Government only allowed 1s. a day for the maintenance of military prisoners in county gaols, which, in many cases, was not sufficient to cover the expenses. He moved that words be added to the clause enacting that a sum equal to the expense which each prisoner might occasion for maintenance and establishment charges in such prison should be allowed by the Government.

resisted the Amendment, on the ground that 1s. a day covered all expenses in the case of military prisoners.

moved an Amendment, with the view of placing Ireland in the same position as England and Scotland with respect to the billeting of soldiers. In the latter two countries private individuals were exempted from having soldiers on the march billeted upon them, and what he wanted was that Ireland also should be included in the exemption, which could be effected by leaving out of the clause the words "in Great Britain." The noble Lord moved accordingly.

opposed the Amendment. The grievance complained of was seldom experienced, and limited to a few persons. The fact was that the scarcity of public-houses in certain parts of the country in Ireland rendered it necessary to billet soldiers upon some private houses.

said, that having exempted England and Scotland from this grievance, the Government sought to impose it upon Ireland. This, then, might be considered one of the causes of Irish discontent.

said, that having made inquiries upon the subject, he found that, from the scarcity of public-houses on certain roads in Ireland, it became necessary sometimes to billet soldiers on private houses.

believed that the same reasons precisely had been urged in favour of the power of billeting soldiers in Scotland. In spite, however, of such reasons, Scotland was exempted from this annoyance, and no inconvenience had been experienced in consequence.

said, that words were inserted in the Preamble which were not true—namely, that the British army was kept up for the purpose of "maintaining the balance of power in Europe." If he wanted an authority upon this point, he need only refer to the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who stated that the British army, which consisted of only 40,000 or 50,000 men, could have no effect upon the balance of European power. He therefore proposed in lines 7 and 8 to omit the words "for the preservation of the balance of power in Europe."

, though not concurring in the reason urged by the hon. Gentleman for the omission of the words, nevertheless did not consider them of sufficient importance to contest the point.