said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he will lay before the House the detail of the expenditure of the sum levied over Ireland to meet preliminary expenses in anticipation of the cattle plague?

said, in reply, that the accounts were nearly completed, and the details would be laid on the Table as soon as possible. A small sum remained in hand which had not been expended.

said, he would now beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he is about to give instructions to the Constabulary in the case of deaths from smallpox, caused by inoculation, to endeavour to procure an inquest to be held, in order, if possible, to obtain a conviction for manslaughter, or for an offence against the Vaccination Act?

, in reply, said, instructions had been given to the Constabulary in cases where deaths occurred under the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member for Galway to cause an inquest to be held. Those instructions, however were confined to certain localities, with regard to which information had been received. But if it were desired that the instructions should be made general, he had no objecton whatever to that course.

said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, considering the present tranquil state of Ireland, he conceives it necessary to keep prisoners arrested under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act any longer in confinement; and, whether he will state to the House the number at present under confinement under the above Act?

Sir, when I moved for leave to introduce a Bill for the further extension of the Habeas Corpus Act there were ninety-six persons in confinement in Ireland under the Lord Lieutenant's warrant. I am happy to be able to state that this morning there were only twenty-three persons in confinement under the provisions of that Act, and, of those twenty-three, orders for the release of fourteen have already been made, on condition either that they leave the country or give solvent bail. As the House will see, there is reason to hope that before long any practical consequences of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland will have ceased.

said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, with reference to his Answer of the 18th of February upon the same subject, When he will state what recommendations he is; prepared to make for the enfranchisement of "compound-householders in parishes not within existing borough boundaries, but which might be wholly or in part added to boroughs," and of whom the Boundary Commissioners report that "they will be precluded from qualifying as voters in the year 1869, unless some special provision is made for their protection?" He had understood the right hon. Gentleman on a former occasion to admit the importance of this question, and to state that it had not escaped the attention of the Government; but, finding no reference to the I matter in the Boundary Bill as laid upon the table, he felt it right to ask this question. ["Order!"]

Sir, the observations; of the hon. Gentleman are quite justified. It was considered expedient that the remedy required should not be included in the Boundary Bill as laid upon the table; but that, when the Measure had gone through Committee, I should, if necessary, propose a clause upon the subject. Of course, it is quite possible that the matter may have previously received the attention of the Committee upon the Bill.

said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, with reference to the sale of such of Her Majesty's ships as are not now required for the Service, Whether the use of such ships might be obtained for Schools or other public purposes, subject to such conditions for their preservation, and their return when required, as the Admiralty may prescribe?

said, in reply, that the Admiralty had already in many instances given ships for the purposes specified by the hon. Gentleman, and would be glad to do so where this was possible and compatible with the public service. At the same time he must point out that, in many cases, the societies not only asked for the loan of ships, but required that these should be refitted, caulked, and otherwise repaired at very large cost, for which no provision could be made in the Naval Estimates.

said, he would beg to ask Mr. Speaker, Whether the direct allusions made that evening by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) to what had taken place in the House of Lords was in order?

The rule of the House is, that allusion to debates in the other House of Parliament should not be made in this. It would have been competent to the hon. Member to have risen to order, if he had thought fit this evening; but it is scarcely possible that, under all circumstances, the rule can be construed in an absolutely literal manner. When declarations have been made by Ministers of the Crown, particularly as affecting the position of this House, exceptions have been made to the strict observance of this particular rule.

, in rising to move an Address to the Crown, on the subject of Military Education, said, he brought forward a similar Motion two years ago, when, in a House of 284 Members, it was lost by 20. On that occasion he was supported by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, by the Secretaries of State for the Home Department and for India, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, besides other Members of Her Majesty's Government. On the other hand, he had to deplore the opposition of the noble Lord the late Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington), more, he hoped and believed, from a natural disinclination to upset the determination of his predecessors than from any abstract love for the present system of education at the Military Colleges. He felt sanguine, however, that on a full consideration of the whole question, and of the events that had recently occurred at Sandhurst, his Motion would receive the support of many of those who had previously voted against it. Very few changes of importance had been made at Sandhurst College since he last brought the question before the House, and matters had gone on from bad to worse there. If half of what was stated to have occurred at Sandurst last autumn was true, not only was there a great want of respect for all discipline there, but also a want of respect for the property and even for the lives of Her Majesty's subjects. On the 28th October, 1867, a number of the cadets of Sandhurst College entered the shop of a jeweller of the Jewish persuasion, smashed everything in their way, and attacked and maltreated the jeweller himself. For several succeeding nights the cadets inarched about in compact bodies, letting off fireworks and creating great disturbances and universal alarm. On the 1st November they went again to the jeweller's shop, smashed the fanlight over his door, and discharged fireworks. Next day they endeavoured unsuccessfully to batter in his shop front, and did considerable damage; and on other occasions they seriously injured a woman, set fire to a skittle alley, and were guilty of exceedingly riotous conduct. On one of the days in question, which fell on a Sunday, strong measures were taken for the preservation of discipline; but the cadets in the evening assembled near St. Michael's church during the performance of Divine service, and kept up a hideous noise, consisting of catcalls, yells, shouting, &c. He would not pass any comment upon this picture of insubordination, riot, and irreverence, for it spoke for itself; but he wished to impress upon the House that these things must have had a cause, and that that cause was to be found in the present system of training and education at the Military Colleges. When he brought the question before the House before, he dwelt minutely upon the rigorous treatment of the cadets, who were not boys, but young men of eighteen ornineteen—but the fact was he had under-stated the case. The want of discipline was as much due to injudicious indulgence as to injudicious rigour. The cadets had uncomfortable dormitories and want of privacy; they were subjected to an irritating schoolboy treatment, and beyond all that they were exposed, by the very action of the authorities themselves, to every species of temptation. Until lately not only had the publichouses at Sandhurst been thrown open to them, but a canteen had been established within the College itself, where smoking, drinking, and billiard playing went on; and the attractions of these places, as compared with the bare walls and sanded floors of their dormitories, led to a spirit of lawlessness which vented itself sometimes in petty acts of wanton mischief, such as smashing lamps and windows; and at other times into acts of more serious insubordination. The large and increasing class of cadets who came from "cramming" establishments, and who, possessing more money than brains, found it easier to spend a year at College and purchase a commission than to compete for one at Chelsea, exercised a prejudicial influence; and something was also due to the pernicious distinction between the executive officers and the professors of the College—and that applied to both Colleges—by which the power of punishment was maintained in one set of hands while that of imparting instruction was placed in another. And that brought him to what was, after all, the object for which these Colleges were founded—namely, the nature of the education given them. He admitted that the education given in the Military Colleges was good in some points; but the question was, whether it might not be better. The right hon. Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe), than whom there was no better judge of education, objected during the Recess, in one of those speeches which all must admire, even though they did not concur in them, to the unpractical character of our University and public school training. Now, the same remark would apply to the Military Colleges; yet the military profession was one which urgently required a practical education. Too many subjects had to begot up in too short a time, thus leading to cramming combined with the most absolute ignorance even of the elements of professional education. At Woolwich a cadet had to perfect himself in two years and a half in at least a dozen subjects, including the higher mathematics and natural science, but he was not taught riding until the last year of his academical course, and he was so badly instructed in drill, especially sword drill, that it had to be learnt over again on his joining the regiment. At Sandhurst, almost as many subjects had to be mastered in eighteen or—deducting vacations—in thirteen months; and it used to be, and probably was still, proverbial that young officers coming thence had to unlearn all their drill. Considering our East and West India experiences, it was strange that young officers were not instructed in military law, in the practice of Courts-martial, and regimental economy, which included a knowledge of the weight, price, and quality of the soldier's arms, necessaries, and accoutrements — subjects of the utmost value to the officer. A colloquial knowledge of a foreign language was also exceedingly useful; but examinations being no longer vivâ voce, he believed it was not to be acquired at Woolwich or Sandhurst; and if a cadet were able to string two sentences together in a foreign tongue, it was to be attributed more to his previous training than to collegiate instruction. The students were assembled thirty or forty together in a hall and were expected, while other teaching was going on around them, to solve the most difficult problems in mathematics and natural science—private study being so much discouraged that it was difficult to get permission to read for examinations after the lights were put out. The consequence of this Procrustean system, if he might so call it, was that no cadet really had his talents turned to advantage. Nobody took care to ascertain what speciality he was fitted for, and it followed that many young officers of great parts and attainments were completely lost to the State so far as their particular talents were concerned. He would next refer to the cost of maintaining the Military Colleges — a matter which the educational defects of those institutions brought out only the more prominently. Without troubling the House with an array of figures, he might mention the fact that, exclusive of all the expenses paid for education and maintenance by the parents and guardians of the cadets, the two Colleges at Woolwich and Sandhurst cost over £35,000 a year to the State. The cost of the maintenance of an individual cadet at Woolwich was £200 a year, or 30 or 40 per cent higher than the cost of the education imparted at the most expensive of our public schools, such as Eton and Harrow; 60 or 80 per cent higher than what was paid at less costly establishments, and, as he was informed, 100 per cent higher than the expenses of education at the French College at St. Cyr. If these figures were analyzed, it would be found that the education of the cadet, unlike that of the public school-boy, cost two-thirds of the whole sum, and the maintenance one-third; and the cause of this astounding result would appear to be in the fact that there was one professor, or executive officer to every six cadets, a number that could not reasonably be increased, if the professors were all dry nurses and the cadets all children in leading strings. There was a time when things were very different, for about twenty-five or thirty years ago, in the days of Sir George Scovell, not only did Sandhurst pay its own expenses, but it contributed £1,000 a year besides to the Treasury. He might possibly be told that all these things were thoroughly inquired into in 1857 in the days of Lord Panmure. That was perfectly true; but he would ask, what attention had been paid to the Report of the Commissioners of that time, confirmed as it was by the Minister of the day, and sanctioned by Her Majesty? In their Report the Commissioners recommended among other things the amalgamation of the two Colleges. Then followed naturally the question, why was that Report not attended to? The answer was to be found in the debate which took place on the Motion of the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell), on the 28th of April, 1858. It had, he believed, been erroneously supposed that the House of Commons on that occasion rejected the proposal for the amalgamation of the two Colleges. Had they done so, his Motion would still not have been affected; but an examination into that debate would, he thought, show that the House was not averse to the amalgamation of the two Colleges, but to the amalgamation of the two Colleges into the College of Sandhurst as it was then constituted, the objection arising from the fact that the House disapproved the system of selection which prevailed at Sandhurst, while it approved the system of competition which prevailed at Woolwich. In any case, the lapse of time, the outbreaks which had since occurred, and the reluctance on the part of every War Minister to deal with the question, on account of the adverse vote supposed to have been arrived at by the House of Commons, were in themselves reasons sufficient why a fresh inquiry should be instituted. In his Motion he had included the subject of military education, because he thought that the inquiry into the military organization and education at Sandhurst ought to be accompanied by an inquiry into the great question of the previous training and examination of all candidates for the army. He hoped, too, that the public schools might be induced to co-operate in this matter, and that by the establishment of classes for practical military education they might be able to strike a blow at what might be termed — whether viewed in a physical, educational, or in a moral point of view—a a most factitious system of education—he meant the "cramming" system. He thought, too, that it would be a very proper subject for consideration to inquire whether it would be possible to improve in any way the practical education of our Volunteer and Militia officers. It would also be in his opinion advisable that the reason for the falling off of the candidates for school-masterships at the Normal Schools at Chelsea should be inquired into, as well as the effect which the recent introduction of recreations and amusements for the benefit of soldiers had exercised upon drunkenness in the army. He had now completed the charges which he had thought it necessary to bring forward against the Military Colleges; he had endeavoured to prove that their discipline was bad, their education defective, and their cost extravagant. To his own mind the remedy was clear. What was required was, in the first place, a searching inquiry, to be followed by the amalgamation of the two Colleges, as recommended by the Council of Military Education, on an entirely different basis. If he was right in anticipating what would be the probable effect of a Commission of Inquiry, he might hope to see the day when a military University would be founded somewhat upon the basis of that admirable College of West Point which existed in the United States, and which had been the mother of so much military talent during the late American war, where candidates would receive a really practical education in military matters, and where those who passed would receive their commissions quite as much for their good conduct as for their proficiency in study. There was another reason why it was especially important that an inquiry should take place at the present time. The system of purchase might at no distant date be either abolished or considerably modified, and in that event it would be of the greatest importance that there should be a military University, through which officers should be compelled to pass; due provision, of course, being made for a certain number of promotions from the ranks. The noble Lord apologized to the House for having brought on a very dry subject after a very exciting one; but he felt assured that, although he might have detained hon. Members a long time, he should not have detained them too long if he succeeded in inducing them to accept his Motion, which he thoroughly believed would promote the interests of the army and of the country. He would conclude by moving—

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that a Royal Commission composed of Military and Civilian Members be appointed to inquire into the present state of Military Education in this Country, and more especially into the training of Candidates for Commissions in the Army, and into the Constitution, system of Education, and discipline of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, and of the Royal Military College at Sandhurst, as well as into the rules and regulations under which Candidates are admitted into those Colleges."

I am afraid my experience in connection with the army and military matters is not sufficient to justify me in pronouncing opinions to which any value can be attached on the various questions raised by the speech and Motion of my noble Friend; but when my noble Friend gave notice of this Motion I felt it my duty to give my most careful attention to the consideration of the subject; and I accordingly consulted a considerable number of those military men of long experience and high authority in whose judgment I felt I could confide. The result of my reflection and inquiry has been that I consider it my duty to accede to my noble Friend's Motion. I am quite sure that every Gentleman now present will feel that no apology was necessary on the part of my noble Friend for bringing forward a subject to which he has given great attention, and which he has now introduced to the House in a speech of great clearness; and, although he terms the subject a very dry one, I must differ more from him on that point than on the merits of the Motion, for, whatever our individual opinions on it may be, everyone must acknowledge that it relates to a subject bearing in the most direct and important manner on the interests of the army. Such inquiries as I have been able to make convince me that among military men generally there is a very strong feeling that the state of military education in this country is not altogether satisfactory. I cannot myself presume to give any opinion which would be worth considering as to whether it be desirable that our army should be made more a professional army than it is at present. It seems to me, however, that there are very strong grounds for believing that our army would be improved and our officers rendered more efficient and more competent to discharge their duties if the army were made a more professional army than it now is, and this is also the opinion of many officers who have given the most careful consideration to the matter. It is essential, in order to attain that object, that the early training of our officers should be more systematic and complete than at present; and here let me remind the House that this is by no means a new question. On the contrary, it was dealt with, and nearly completed, by the late Lord Herbert in 1860 and 1861, when he was Secretary of State for War. Lord Herbert was desirous that, as regards the Line, the Cavalry, and the Guards, all candidates for commissions should pass through Sandhurst, and that from 500 to 600 cadets should be taught there. This proposal of Lord Herbert was carried out so far that it obtained the approval of the Treasury; and, in the Estimates for 1861–2, a sum of £15,000 was actually introduced, and voted, I believe, by the House, for erecting suitable buildings for the accommodation of 500 cadets; and in the following financial year, 1862–3, though the number of cadets was then estimated at 400 only, a Vote of £12,700 was placed in the Estimates for carrying out the arrangements for extending the establishment at Sandhurst. But this intention to create a great military College was abandoned in consequence of an objection which was raised on the part of our great English Universities. At least, I have been told that that was the reason why the idea dropped after having been so far carried into execution; but I am not disposed to think that such objection on the part of the Universities ought to be entertained or persevered in. If my noble Friend's Motion should result in the recommendations which are likely to be made by the Commission, I should regret that the objections raised by the Universities should be allowed to interfere with the plan proposed. I can only consider the interference of the Universities as practically mischievous, for the result of it has been to bring to Sandhurst—the privilege, I may remark, does not apply to Woolwich—young men of an age which makes them utterly unfit for anything like education in a seminary of that kind; while, at the same time, the maintenance of discipline has been rendered extremely difficult. And here let me call the attention of the House for a moment to one very serious defect in our present system, in consequence of the ages at which young men enter the institutions at Woolwich and Sandhurst, and in consequence also of the reservation to which I have referred in favour of the Universities. The subject was under serious consideration by myself, in conjunction with the Commander in Chief, in January last, when—at the request of his Royal Highness—I attended a meeting at the Horse Guards. The Commander in Chief was himself present at that meeting, which was also attended by the Council of Military Education. The age of the students in the Colleges was taken into our serious consideration, and we came to a determination to make an important alteration in this respect. At present young men cannot enter Sandhurst or Woolwich before they are sixteen years old, nor remain there after they are nineteen. We agreed that it was desirable to reduce the period of instruction to two years, and to admit students from the fifteenth to the seventeenth years of their age. The House must, however, bear in mind that young men are at present allowed to enter the institution at Sandhurst when they are as much as twenty-one years of age, and to remain there, if intended for the cavalry, until they are twenty-three. The result is, that very few young men avail themselves of the opportunity afforded them by this system. Young men are allowed to come to Sandhurst from the Universities at twenty-three years of age, and the result is that they cannot obtain their commissions and commence their military career until they are twenty-five years of age. It therefore appears to me that the ages at which cadets are permitted to enter these Colleges should be reduced, so that the young men may commence their military career and training at an earlier age. This reduction in the ages of the cadets entering the Colleges was discussed at a meeting of the Council of Military Education, held at the Horse Guards in January last; but in consequence of the intention of my noble Friend to move for the appointment of a Royal Commission being communicated to us, it was resolved, with the concurrence of his Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, not to make any absolute orders that cadets must enter the Colleges at an earlier age than was now permitted until after the subject had been considered by that Commission. Let me now call the attention of the House to the result of admitting young men to Woolwich at the ages—namely, from sixteen to nineteen—to which I have already adverted. I hold in my hand a Paper giving the ages of the cadets who were at Woolwich on the 1st of the present month, from which I find the average age of the whole number of cadets at that establishment to be nineteen years and two months; that of the young men in the first class being as high as twenty, while the age of the oldest cadet in the first class was twenty one years and eight months, rendering it impossible that he could obtain his commission until he was twenty-two or twenty-three years of age, whereas cadets should commence their military career at eighteen years of age. My noble Friend, towards the close of his speech, touched upon a subject which I think is one worthy the consideration of the Royal Commission about to be appointed—namely, the system of what is commonly and familiarly called "cramming," from which great evils have resulted. There is, however, a subject of extreme importance and delicacy to which my noble Friend did not allude, but which it may be thought may well form one of the points for the consideration of the Commission. I must confess that I have never been a very zealous convert to the system of competitive examination; and I am disposed to think that those who believed firmly in that system have had their faith in it a good deal shaken in consequence of circumstances in connection with it that have recently transpired. I have been informed on unquestionable authority—and I can assure the House that I make the statement with great pain and regret, and I should, therefore, be extremely sorry were I in the slightest degree to over-state the case—that one of the effects of the system of competitive examination has been to lead to painful and serious irregularities and demoralization at the cramming schools. I quite believe there are many of those establishments which are conducted with every propriety and with every respectability; but these terms of praise do not, I am sorry to say, apply I to all of them. At some of those establishments—and I fear at not a few—the principle acted upon is this: "You, the pupil, must give me, the teacher, so many hours in the day"—which generally is a large demand upon the time of the cadet, usually some nine or ten hours in the day—"and when those hours are over you may go where and do what you like." I am informed upon authority I cannot doubt that this is the system in force in too many of these establishments. Indeed, among my own private acquaintance, I know of a few cases in which young men, or boys, sent to these schools have come to their parents and entreated to be removed from them, on the ground of the irregularities and demoralization that prevailed there. It is a most serious question that any system should be allowed to exist under which the youth of this country, the sons of our gentry, cannot be trained to this noble profession without being tainted and demoralized at these ill-conducted establishments. So strongly was I impressed by the statements made to me upon this subject that, at the meeting of the Council of Military; Education that was held at the Horse? Guards in January last, I thought it to be my duty to suggest that they should take the matter into their consideration with the view of putting an end to this unfortunate state of affairs. A Committee (of which the Rev. Canon Moseley was a Member) of that Council was appointed to consider the subject and to make a Report upon it, and in the Report they made they recommended that a system of inspection of these schools should be established; but, after giving the subject very careful consideration, considerable doubt exists as to whether we shall be able to carry that recommendation into effect. Had it been clear that we could have introduced such a system with effect I should not have now mentioned the subject. I think, however, that the House will agree with me that the existing state of things is a most painful one, and is worthy any amount of inquiry to see if it cannot possibly be put a stop to. If establishments of this kind must exist, and cadets must attend them as an indispensable step to military service, they ought to be placed under such regulations as would remove the dangers to which I have thought it right thus briefly to advert. My noble Friend gave many reasons for embracing so many topics in his Commission. I do not ask him to alter the terms of his Mo- tion; but I hope that when the Commission is appointed they will not extend their inquiries beyond what is absolutely required for a full elucidation of the subject. I regard the objects of this Commission as of great importance, and as being intimately connected with the efficiency of the army, and with the proper training of our youth who are educating themselves for that noble profession. I also agree with the noble Lord in thinking that the question whether the institutions at Woolwich and at Sandhurst might not be beneficially amalgamated is one worthy the serious consideration of the Commission, to the appointment of which I have now great pleasure in giving my assent.

wished to say a few words with reference to the somewhat disparaging remarks of the right hon. Gentleman on the system of competitive examination at Woolwich. Experience proved that system to be a complete success both intellectually and morally. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary for War had spoken of the cramming establishments, as if the system of cramming and the demoralization consequent upon its adoption were naturally connected with the system of competitive examination. Taking into consideration the number of cadets that had formerly to be sent away from the Woolwich establishment on account of the immorality that prevailed there, and the entreaties which were often formerly made by some of those cadets whose minds had remained uncontaminated to be taken away from that sink of vice, he thought the improvement which had been introduced into that establishment by the adoption of the system of competitive examination was enormous. With regard to the proposed amalgamation of Sandhurst and Woolwich, in a former debate difficulties were suggested that still existed with as much force as ever. It was clear that if they were amalgamated, by far the greater proportion of pupils would be destined for the Line, and not for the scientific corps; and the necessary and natural result would be that education would be conducted with regard to the requirements of the non-scientific rather than the scientific corps. On the question of reducing the age at which pupils were admitted, he would urge them to look at the practice in other countries. There was in France an institution corresponding to that suggested by the noble Lord, for the general education of cadets, and yet, although pupils were admitted to the Ecole Polytechnique from the ages of sixteen to twenty, there were hardly any admissions under seventeen, and very few between seventeen and eighteen, and the majority were between the ages of eighteen and twenty. It would be almost impossible for Artillery and Engineer officers to receive a proper scientific education, supposing the course to be two years, if they were to enter at an earlier age. It seemed to him it would prevent the possibility of the scientific corps receiving the education necessary to fit them for the proper discharge of their duties if the age were reduced. As to the results of the competitive system he was assured on the highest authority, that nothing could be more marked than the increased application and industry which had succeeded in his object, because the state of followed its introduction. Formerly young men who studied were laughed at, but now Study was the rule. Again, the standard of scientific acquirements was higher for cadets entering the Royal Military Academy than it was formerly, for the commission examinations. So far from the gentleman-like tone being impaired by the competitive system, he was assured it was exactly the reverse, and that the conduct of the cadets was exemplary. In every particular—knowledge, conduct, and ability—the new system answered perfectly. A large number of those who entered Sandhurst had failed at Woolwich; and there was a remarkable instance of two young men who failed at Woolwich attaining the top of the list in the competitive examination for direct commissions. The present condition of the Royal Military Academy was on the whole satisfactory, although improvements might be made, and the expenditure was, perhaps, excessive. There were two staffs of military officers receiving high pay, with very little to do, and there were too many of the traditions maintained, of rules suited, perhaps, to school boys, but not suited for young men. He sincerely trusted there would be no tampering with the competitive system, which worked so well, for no movement could be more retrograde than an attempt to interfere with it.

said, he had been rather misunderstood. Speaking generally as to the competitive system he did not wish to say it had produced bad effects at Woolwich; on the contrary, as far as he had heard, he accepted the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the results at Woolwich were quite as good as they had been before its introduction.

, referring to a Committee appointed on his Motion many years ago said, there was hardly a distinguished officer of the Royal Artillery and Engineers examined who did not express the opinion that the ages for admission into the Engineer and Artillery corps should be lowered, and that the educational test should be lowered also. The question was put whether the test now required from the officers was necessary for the daily performance of their duties, and the answer was that it was not. With regard to the entrance of officers into regiments of the Line, many of them began their duties as subalterns when they ought to be captains. He was delighted his noble Friend had succeeded in his object, because the state of Sandhurst College had been most extraordinary, boys of fourteen being in the same categrory with young men of seventeen and eighteen; and there must be great difficulty in framing rules suitable to these two classes. He hoped the Royal Commission would be able to take these points into consideration, and that some steps would be adopted by which such proceedings as his noble Friend had adverted to would no longer prevail.

congratulated the noble Lord on his success, which rendered it unnecessary for him to detain the House with many observations. He wished, however, to draw two morals from the course of investigation which had been pursued on this subject. One was the great importance of perseverance. They were always told in making such a Motion that further inquiry was unnecessary, everything was already known, and it was idle, futile, to seek further inquiry. This subject had gone through these stages, just as that of recruiting had done. Another little moral related to the question how far the Government or the House of Commons were accountable for economy and efficiency in the expenditure of the country. It had been roundly stated that the House of Commons, having assented to the Estimates proposed by the Government, were fully as much accountable for the public expenditure as the Government who proposed them; and if there was any tiling to blame in the expenditure, it rested quite as much with the House of Commons as with the Government. He entirely dissented from the doctrine. It was impossible for the House of Commons in detail to enforce economy in the public expenditure. Even with regard to those military schools now to be inquired into by a Royal Commission, he had stated more than once that he believed the expenditure to be extravagant and unnecessary, and he undertook to demonstrate the fact. So long ago as 1862 he had called attention to what he believed to be the extravagant expense of the military schools of the country, founded on a comparison of Woolwich and Sandhurst with the Ecole Polytechnique and the Ecole Speciale Militaire, their correlatives; the expenditure at Woolwich being £160 per annum for each cadet, while in France it was only £115; and the teaching and superintendence, which in England was £85, cost in France only £40 each. At Sandhurst the expense of living was £70; at the Ecole Speciale Militaire, £50; while teaching and superintendence cost in England £70, and in France £34. The Secretary for War said inquiry was unnecessary; but next year he went a little farther, and ventured, having made careful inquiries throughout the country, and comparing the cost of teaching in military schools with the teaching in civil schools, to show that the teaching power in military schools everywhere was extravagant. The number of pupils at Woolwich was 180, and the number of teachers 35. There was great excess here, particularly in mathematics, there being not less than seven teachers in that department. Of course, they were met with the usual official stereotyped answers to such criticisms. The noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington), then Secretary of State for War, was not very able to answer; but the right hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon (General Peel) came to the rescue, and stated that the subject had been exhaustively considered by the Commission appointed in 1857, which had reported when he was Secretary of State. He attributed the ignorance which prevailed on this subject to the fact that the Library contained no copies of that Report, and the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington), as the result of that appeal, placed two copies in the Library. He devoted considerable time in reading that Report, and, strange to say, the Royal Commissioners corroborated most of the statements that had been made in that House, and made recommendations similar to those that had been suggested by hon. Members in the various debates that had taken place upon the subject. What steps, then, had been taken since 1857 to carry out that Report? With regard to the cost of education, this Commission reported that £100 per annum ought to cover the expense of a pupil at any military College. Did not that show that £160 was excessive? And so with regard to the teaching staff. The Commission reported that it was excessive. He then referred to the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for War, that the age of admission should be altered from sixteen to eighteen, to fifteen to seventeen, and observed that an earlier age should not be named for entering the College, but that they should diminish the time at which these cadets might reasonably hope for promotion. In conclusion, he said that it was futile to throw upon the House of Commons the responsibility of increased Estimates; the responsibility rested with the Government, which alone possessed the requisite knowledge of details.

, in reference to remarks from the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House, said, he certainly did not understand his right hon. Friend to propose a reference to the Committee of matters under the jurisdiction of the Crown.

, referring to the late Sir George Wetherall, said, that officer seemed to have been placed at the head of Sandhurst, not because he was known to possess abilities as a teacher, but in order to reward him as a military man. But if it was intended to reward or honour a man it should be done directly, and not by placing him in a position for which he was not specially qualified. He found that Sandhurst cost £36,731 a year, and there were taught 300 cadets. He would ask any man accustomed to teaching, whether that was not a very large sum to pay. Again, Woolwich cost £38,581 for teaching 200 cadets. At Sandhurst, 300 cadets had 162 professors, teachers, and servants to look after them; and, at Woolwich, for 200 cadets, there were 149 professors, teachers, and servants to discharge similar duties. And yet it appeared from what had fallen from the noble Lord that these young men, notwithstanding all this looking after, were in the habit of going out to smoke, drink, and play billiards. The House could understand from that how it was that riots had occurred. One might expect that all these professors would be able to keep the young men in better order. There was one question which he wished to ask, and that was, whether those two institutions could not be put together and one large establishment formed, so that the expense of two sets of professors, instructors, teachers, and servants for 500 young men might be saved to the country?

wished to say a word with respect to the canteen established at Sandhurst, which had been referred to by the noble Lord. That canteen was opened for the purpose of supplying coffee, beer, and other things by way of luncheon and ordinary refreshment, but not spirits, to the cadets out of hours, and the object was to keep them from the temptation of the public-house. Billiard tables were established like racket-courts, with the view of giving the young men amusement and keeping them from low houses, where evil associates were likely to be picked up. He wished to express his satisfaction at the success of his noble Friend's Motion, and at the spirit in which the Secretary of State intended to meet it by recommending Her Majesty to issue a Royal Commission. The state of Sandhurst and Woolwich ever since he had any knowledge of them had been very unsatisfactory, and that was owing to a matter which had not been mentioned during the discussion. The fact was the young men were, for the most part, put four or five together into rooms; there was not much more moral supervision over them than over soldiers in a barrack; and they were not looked after in the way that boys were at Eton, Harrow, or any other of our public schools. That was a great defect. The professors, who were many of them very able men, when they had finished their lessons, had nothing further to do with the cadet; and, though the officers who were placed over them did undoubtedly look after the young men according to their view of their duty, and a natural view it was, yet the moral influence which was found so salutary, and which tutors exercised over boys at public schools, was wanting. Military men for the most part were not suited to be schoolmasters, because the business of the schoolmaster was one to which they had not been brought up; but, though absolutely necessary as teachers of technical matters, such as military history and fortification, he must give his candid opinion that, as far as the tone of moral conduct went, they made very bad schoolmasters. His noble Friend wanted to establish a University which every one who went into the army should be bound to enter. No doubt, there were arguments in favour of a higher professional education; but, while he was perfectly willing to see a University established where persons might go to take a degree in military science, he did not wish to force young men three or four years beforehand to make up their minds to enter the army. In his opinion they could not get better officers than were to be had from our public schools.

pointed out that the inquiry which had been promised was of a small and limited nature, and expressed his regret that it was not to be larger and wider. Speaking from his experience at the military College of Sandhurst, he must express his opinion that the education of officers with respect to general attainments was now placed on too high a standard. That standard would not secure for the country, active, courageous, and able regimental officers in the general service. His dread was that many most excellent young men, most competent to be regimental officers, would be excluded from the army by reason of the competitive examination. At a former period men who could not at the present day have passed the competitive examination distinguished themselves in the Peninsular War, some of them attaining the highest rank, fighting well, proving excellent regimental officers, and maintaining in most difficult times the honour of the British flag. It was not alone a knowledge of mathematics, or of history, or of many other things he might mention, that was required by a military officer. On the contrary, he thought that a man might have his mind over-crammed with general knowledge, and be thereby less fitted for the performance of his duties than would otherwise be the case. He had himself been educated at Sandhurst, and much did he owe to the education he received there; but he remembered that at that time of day the students were taught how to load and manage a gun, but they were not allowed to use powder. Some time after that they were instructed in riding, which was doubtless a very necessary part of their training, but this was not done while he was in the school. The grand object should be to investigate the question as to what education was respectively required for regimental officers, for Engineer and Artillery officers, for staff officers and commanders of high rank; and nothing could be more mischievous than that a young man should, after a competitive examination, enter the army as an ensign or lieutenant, with the fancy that he knew better than everybody who happened to be above him. For his own part he thought it would be much better to unite the two establishments of Sandhurst and Woolwich. It should be understood that when this Commission was appointed, its duties should not be limited to a mere inquiry into what took place at the Colleges of Woolwich or Sandhurst; but that the whole system of army education, including competititive examinations and appointments to first and second commissions, should be thoroughly investigated, and the effect of the competitive examinations should be inquired into, so that the Commissioners might report for the consideration of the House whether they would continue the system of competitive examinations, which he granted might give them good officers, but which might exclude the very best of officers.

referred to the experience of the East India Company, in connection with their great institution at Addiscombe, as illustrating how scientific education for the Engineers and Artillery might be combined with instruction for regimental positions. Addiscombe had sent out very many distinguished Artillery officers and Engineers to India, and among them was Sir Robert Napier, now commanding the army in Abyssinia, who went out very young. Some of the most distinguished Engineers that we had in India obtained their swords of merit by the time they were seventeen. He regretted to hear an hon. Gentleman complain that men went into the army too young. It was desirable that those who were intended for service in any country like India should go out at an early age, in order that they might get acclimatized, and might hold on. He himself had gone out at fourteen, he was under fire at fifteen, and he attributed his present advanced age and health to youthful acclimatization. He was glad to hear that the Commission was sanctioned, and if it were properly carried out, and due inquiry made as to the working of Addiscombe, he had no doubt that the result would be the combination of the two establishments al Woolwich and Sandhurst, not only with great efficiency, but also with great economy.

submitted that if there was one point more than another which required attention in connection with this question, it was the great secret of know- ing how to teach. He earnestly hoped that the Government, in framing the terms of the Commission, would leave it open to the Commission to consider, and would almost direct their attention to, the question—how could the drill instructors of the English army be taught the art of teaching? If England meant to go on paying for auxiliary forces, 180,000 Volunteers, besides Yeomanry and Militia, it behoved the Secretary at War to consider whether the officers of some 300,000 or 400,000 men ought to be intrusted with the duty of teaching their brother civilians without, at least, having had an opportunity of going to some institution where they might be taught—first, the facts they ought to know; secondly, the principles on which those facts rested; and, lastly, how to impart them to civilians, who had very little time, and were not now properly taught by the drill instructors. Some of the instructors were very able, but they were only a very few amongst the many.

said, he agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Devonport (Mr. Chambers) that under the present system the minds of officers were emasculated by over education. He hoped that the Commission to be appointed would include this subject in their inquiries—that they would consider why the two institutions alluded to were required at all, and on what grounds young men did not enter the army at as early an age as they entered the navy.

, in rising to move a Resolution relative to Examinations for the East India Civil Service, said, that Her Majesty, in her Proclamation to the People of India in 1858, which had been looked upon as the charter of their liberties, declared it to be her will and pleasure that all her subjects, of whatever race or creed, should be fairly and impartially admitted into her service, if they were qualified by education, ability, and integrity. He should be able to prove that if some scheme like that he intended to propose was not carried out that promise would not be faithfully fulfilled. Under the present system of admission to the Civil Service, a preliminary examination was necessary in London, to decide on the candidate's intellectual and moral fitness; and on succeeding in this he was required to spend two years in this country, taking minutes of the proceedings of Courts of Justice, and in other ways preparing himself for his duties. It was no doubt true that the Natives of India might compete in these examinations; but, as they could only do so by coming to London, at great expense, and then might be unsuccessful, to say that the examinations were practically open to them was an idle mockery. In fact, though the system had continued for many years, only one Native had entered into the competition. His proposal was that there should be examinations at Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay; that there should be the same papers and the same tests as in London; and that the successful candidates, whether English or Native, should spend two years in this country. To this he had reason to believe, from memorials he had received from Calcutta and Bombay, the Natives would not object, though they naturally objected to coming over to England in the first instance without any guarantee of success. Their two years' residence here might be turned to good account; for conversation with many of the leading members of his own University enabled him to say that at Cambridge, as also, doubtless at Oxford, they would be welcomed and encouraged to spend the two years there, and they would thus be brought in contact with the best of our English youth. There would be no difficulty in carrying out this plan; for the examination papers might be sent under seal to India, and, the examination being fixed for the same day as in London, the candidates' papers might be sent home under seal, and inspected by the same examiners, the names of the successful candidates at all four examinations being arranged in the order of merit. This would be analogous to the plan pursued with the Middle Class Examinations, Cambridge University having a centre at Trinidad, and the examination there being conducted as fairly as at London or Liverpool. An objection might, indeed, be taken on account of part of the examinations being vivâ voce, but some of the best scholars from English Universities held professorships in India, and were perfectly competent to conduct vivâ voce examinations. The Secretary for India, while not resisting the claim of the Natives to a larger share in the government of the country, preferred a compromise, which was embodied in an Amendment to be moved by his hon. Friend (Mr. Trevelyan)—namely, that a certain proportion of the appointments should be reserved for Natives who were properly qualified. The plan, however, unless the proportion were absolutely fixed, would vary with the changing opinions of each Governor General or Secratary of State, and it would not satisfy the just demands of the people of India. Even in the Uncovenanted Service there was only one Native. Some favoured the plan of permitting a given proportion of the Civil Service to consist of Natives; but if it were decided that one-third or one-fifth should be Native, it might happen that the quota could not be supplied in consequence of the inefficiency of the candidates. But under any circumstances the admission of Natives on the present terms would be very trying to them, because they would always occupy an inferior position; for Englishmen, who were prone to feel proud of their race, would say to the Natives that had they been obliged to undergo the same test that they as Englishmen had been subjected to, they never would have been admitted to the Civil Service, and they would therefore take care to keep the Native civil servants always down. The people of India were ready to undergo whatever intellectual test it was deemed wise to impose; all they asked for was to be subjected to precisely the same trial as the English. He had seen letters from Natives of India stating that, if they could only obtain this privilege of perfect equality, and the result should show that not one Native could prove himself equal to his English competitor, they would then have no longer any ground for complaint. He made no prediction as to the number of Natives that would be successful in the examinations; but he believed that it would be an intellectual rivalry which would benefit the people of England as well as of India. He felt confident, however, that a large number of Natives would be success- ful; and he based his confidence on the fact that they were a studious people and showed an extraordinary zeal for a high education. Intellectually, he was convinced the Natives were not inferior to the Engglish. A very eminent friend of his, who had been twelve years tutor at Cambridge, and who had also been tutor at Calcutta, said that he never had another class for high intellectual character such as he had at Calcutta. The Secretary for India might say that something beside intellect was needed, and insist upon moral qualities as well. He answered that moral qualities should also be insisted on when Englishmen were chosen to assist in the government of those whom they looked upon as a subject race. Sir Bartle Frere had said that those Natives who had received a good education were always foremost in their advocacy of the Imperial Government. He (Mr. Fawcett) saw no objection, however, to requiring that Native candidates should pass two years in some recognized English educational establishment where their moral character might be studied. It should be said, in defence of the Natives, that to make them fill inferior offices at a mean late of pay was not the way to cultivate integrity among them. Even a Native Judge who had power to decide cases involving sums up to £500 received no more than one-fifth of the lowest European Judge in India. Sir Thomas Munro had testified to the assiduity of the Natives; he had spoken of them as better men of business than Europeans, and more fitted to fill offices under Government, because they were acquainted with the manners and customs of the people; and, with reference to their alleged inferiority of character, he had asked, what would be the effect on English character if we, having been subjected, were debarred from all but the meanest Offices of State? our civilization and our literature would be destroyed, nothing would save us from debasement. It was an indisputable fact that many Natives competent to govern a province were fulfilling the humblest duties at salaries less than was received by the youngest member of the Indian Civil Service. Lord Metcalfe had well said that the bane of our system was that the advantages were reaped by one class and the work was done by another. The great reason why the people of India were not more contented with our rule was, not that we had not given them material prosperity, but that we had excluded them from social, municipal, and political offices. The great defect of our Indian system had been its rigid centralization. It was obvious that those who had been brought up upon the spot must be better able to understand the wants of the people, to enter into their feelings, and to appreciate their prejudices, than those who were completely strangers to them. Sir Bartle Frere, in one of his despatches, said he had been much struck with the fact that the ablest exponents of English policy, and our best coadjutors in adapting that policy to the wants of the various nations occupying Indian soil, were to be found among the Natives who had received a high-class English education. It was too often forgotten in that House that India was really not one nation, but it was composed of many nations, and therefore a system of strict centralization was peculiarly ill-adapted to that country. What was particularly wanted in India was that that there should be in the public service persons who understood the particular manners, customs, and prejudices of the varied and distinct nations of which it was composed. By carrying out the proposal embodied in his Resolution they would redress the grievance complained of, inasmuch as they would throw open the appointments in the public service in that country to all those Natives who were intellectually and morally qualified to fill them. Directly they educated a man they made him ambitious to take part in the government of the country, and, therefore, it became more hard each day on the people of India to quench the ambition which by these educational efforts we had called forth. It was very hard, again, that the children of English officers or civilians resident in India should not have the same facilities for obtaining admission to service under the Crown as were possessed by the families of officers or civilians resident in England. This consideration would become of even greater importance if, with increased facilities for locomotion, and with means of sending children to the hills every year, it became possible to rear the families of Europeans in India itself. The course which he advocated was based upon justice; and he was perfectly certain, that if adopted, it would have a most beneficial effect upon public opinion throughout our Indian territory. It had been well said of the subjects of Her Majesty's Eastern Empire—that in their prosperity was our strength, in their contentment our security, and their gratitude would be our best re- ward. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Resolution.

seconded the Motion.

Sir, I gather from the speech of my hon. Friend, with the spirit of which I cordially agree, that he has two principal objects in bringing forward this Resolution. First, he wishes, by placing the Natives of India in intellectual competition with our own countrymen, to vindicate their claims to mental superiority, and thereby to diminish the tone of disparagement and contempt which is too often adopted with regard to them; and, secondly, he aims at giving them a fair share in the administration of their own country. Now, Sir, if the House will lend me its attention, and I promise not to detain it long, I hope to be able to show that the first of these objects, so far from being furthered by the course which my hon. Friend calls on you to adopt, will, on the contrary, suffer from it a great and, what is more, an irremediable check; and that the second will be attained in a much more sure and satisfactory manner, by the course indicated in the Amendment which I have placed upon the Paper, and which the Government has since embodied in a Bill: a Bill to which, as a humble but sincere well-wisher to India, I beg to give my cordial approval. Sir, I deplore equally with my hon. Friend, the manner in which European settlers and planters, and, in too many cases, the younger officers of our army allow themselves to speak of their Indian fellow-subjects. As a proof of sincerity on this point, hon. Gentlemen will perhaps not think it impertinent in me to state that I once wrote a book, whose only merit consisted in its being a protest against the high-handed, overbearing, and unjust way in which many Englishmen spoke of and dealt with the population whom it was their special national mission to govern and to elevate; a protest which called down on me the vigorous denunciations of the Anglo-Indian Press. But, Sir, the policy of my hon. Friend, instead of extinguishing those feelings of dislike and depreciation would only serve to embitter and perpetuate them; and the process by which this unfortunate result would come about is obvious and certain. What is this Covenanted Civil Service? What is its special object, and what is the public reason for its existence? It is the appointed channel through which the knowledge, the ability, the higher morality of the United Kingdom is applied to the administration of India, and not of the United Kingdom only, but of Canada, Australia, and the other British colonies. In order to ascertain who are the best and ablest among our young men, we hold yearly a searching competitive examination; and, in order to attract the greatest possible number of such young men, we hold out to the successful candidates the certainty of a highly paid and most influential, and interesting public career. To bring to bear upon India the highest governing powers of the United Kingdom and the whole British Empire, is, therefore, the object of the Covenanted Civil Service, and the justification for its existence. And hon. Gentlemen must remember that it needs such a justification, for this Civil Service is guarded by monopoly, and fenced round with privileges. It is exclusive to such a degree, that the Government are bound to continue in their service, and to promote according to the ordinary routine, every civil servant who is sent out under covenant, unless he commits some act of gross misconduct; and they are also restrained from looking abroad for persons of experience and ability, and are bound to confine themselves to members of this privileged class, unless circumstances should occur of such a special and exceptional character, that practically they never have occurred, and the monopoly of the Covenanted Civil Service remains to this day uninfringed and absolute. The civil servants sent out to India are untried young men, and, owing to moral and physical defects which cannot be absolutely tested in an examination, a proportion of them are certain to turn out unfit for the highly difficult and important administrative career to which they have been designated; and yet the conditions on which they entered the service must be observed. The Government must fulfill its side of the contract. Good or bad they must be promoted in their turn, or in something like their turn. Posts worth their acceptance have to be found for them. Men are made Judges who are notoriously deficient in discrimination, and are appointed to govern provinces as large as an English county, though they have never learned to govern themselves. And yet, for the honour of our nation, it must be said that the number of bad bargains is surprisingly small; and the reason is evident. Success in the competitive examination is a guarantee that an English civil servant possesses industry, and intellectual ability, and an Englishman who is industrious and clover is very seldom deficient in the moral qualities of force, energy, honesty, and courage; qualities which are absolutely essential to all who aspire to be enrolled among the governing caste of an Oriental people. But it is far otherwise with Hindoos. The Natives of Bengal are remarkable for extreme quickness and cleverness; but, as compared with Europeans, are singularly deficient in the bolder and hardier virtues—in pluck, self-reliance, and veracity—the three great national attributes by which we gained, and by which we retain our hold upon British India. In such a competition as is proposed by my hon. Friend, they would be eminently successful; for remarkable as is their capacity, it is not so peculiar as the premature ripeness of their intellect. Their turn for mathematics is extraordinary. A Cambridge contemporary of my own, who was professor at the Calcutta University, a distinguished wrangler, assured me that the young men whom he was engaged in instructing, rushed through his course of subjects at such headlong speed that he began to be afraid lest, at the end of six months, he should have nothing left to teach them. There is no doubt that if you adopt my hon. Friend's Resolution; if you open these doors at Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, the Natives would come in by shoals, and just reflect a moment on what you will be doing. The Hindoos are strong in intellect, and confessedly weak in morale. You submit them to an intellectual test, which the great number are pretty sure to pass. You dispense with the moral test, by which the great number are pretty sure to fail. You will have the service full of bad bargains. And why? Why, Sir, because in old Haileybury days, when the service was close, and there was no competitive test, a bad bargain meant a man who was a fool. In these days, when there is a competitive test, when every successful candidate must have, at the least, some book learning, a bad bargain means a man who is a muff. And, Sir, if 5 per cent of the English competition wallahs are found wanting in the vigorous and manly virtues, indispensable to the members of a ruling caste, what will be the percentage among the Hindoo competition wallahs? Why, many times as great, Sir; and everyone, who thinks for a moment, will see that it must be so, and no one more clearly than the hon. Gentleman, who, in discussions of this nature, has the immense, and almost unique advantage of being equally versed in practical education and practical politics. Of course, where you find one young English civil servant unequal to the duties and responsibilities of his career, you will find ten or twenty Natives; for the very plain reason that we, as a race, are far superior to them in force of character. We know that it is so by observation; by their own confession; by the overwhelming testimony of fact. If it be not the case—if the average of what I may call the governing qualities is as high among the Hindoos as among the English, how did we ever get to India, and how do we contrive to stay there? We are there because nine Englishmen out of ten are born to rule, and ninety-nine out of 100 Hindoos are born to be governed; because we are manly, and they are effeminate; because—but instead of giving reasons to ourselves why we are in India an Imperial race, ask the first Native, and what is he sure to tell you? He is sure to say—and I appeal for confirmation to every old civil servant in the House—that the secret of our power in India is not so much our valour, not so much our enterprise, as that we, as a nation, speak the truth, and never take bribes. And, therefore, Sir, if, in an evil day for our rule in India, you listen to the advice of my hon. Friend, you will fill the service with men who will succeed in the examination, and altogether break down in practical life. The Indian career is of such a nature that the youngest civilian has constant demands upon his stock of determination and self-reliance. Contingencies are frequently occurring when he is looked to to put down a dangerous outbreak; to coerce or cajole a refractory potentate; to arbitrate between religious sects inflamed against each other by mutual injuries. On such an occasion the great majority of these unhappy Hindoo competitition wallahs would succumb to the difficulties of their situation, and then what would become of the philanthropic motives of my hon. Friend? Would this be a state of the case likely to in- duce English planters and subalterns to moderate their tone towards the Natives of India? No, Sir! On the contrary, they would imagine that everything harsh and unkind which they were accustomed to say and believe had received an additional justification. Their taunts and sarcasm would acquire fresh point, and they would believe that they had now good ground to upbraid the Hindoos for inferiority of character, whereas, up to that time, they had only abused them on speculation. But, Sir, if we reject the proposition of my hon. Friend we are bound in honour as a nation to substitute for it some machinery by which Native Indian talent may be brought to bear upon the administration of India. I say, in honour as a nation, because in the 87th section of the Charter Act of 1833 we solemnly pledged ourselves to open all employments to Natives, without distinction of caste, sect, or religion. And how have we redeemed this pledge? We have extended the line somewhat as regards the subordinate class of employments to which Natives are eligible. If this had not been done the business of the country could not have been carried on, and public affairs must have fallen into utter confusion; and, at the same time, we have appointed Natives to the honorary unpaid situation of Legislative Councillor, and to a very small number of Judgeships of the High Courts—two or three for the whole of India. But as regards the great bulk of judicial revenue and other offices the monopoly of the Covenanted Service has not only been practically maintained, but has been confirmed, and has had a new legal sanction given to it by the Civil Service Act of 1861, whereby all the situations previously held by the Civil Service have been scheduled and declared to be tenable only by members of that Service, as well as all similar offices which may be created hereafter. That is the manner in which we fulfil our solemn national engagements. We ordain that the entire people of a great country, who from time immemorial had governed themselves, and managed their own affairs, should be entirely excluded from their own administration, except as regards those subordinate offices which could not be filled by members of the Covenanted Civil Service, without involving intolerable expense and certain inefficiency, and a very small number of high situations most of which were unpaid. And hon. Members must observe that, by declaring the Natives eligible for the high situations of Legislative Councillor and judge of the High Court, we have admitted their fitness for the large class of situations which lie between the Judgeships of the High Court and the principal Sudder Ameenships and other subordinate posts which they are permitted to fill; and yet we take no steps to give practical effect to this inevitable inference. We ignore this fact; and give another proof, if another proof were wanted, that injustice always involves inconsistency. This injustice must be redressed; and the means of redressing it are fortunately at hand. In every Presidency there are two, three, or four Natives of tried character, ability, and official experience. These men are well known to the authorities of the district in which they reside, and the authorities would gladly employ them in the most elevated and responsible situations if the law did not place an obstacle in the way. In the Regulation Provinces—that is to say, speaking roughly, in three-fourths of British India, all the Governor General can do for Natives who have earned their promotion is to refer them back to the competitive entrance examination. What mockery this is! I appeal to those hon. Gentleman opposite, who do not love the modern system of competition, to put off men who have earned an honourable public reputation, by twenty or thirty years' practical service, by directing their attention to a competitive examination in English poetry and pure mathematics, held in a class room 6,000 miles across the sea. There are plenty of Natives, Sir, fit for any public employment, however weighty and dignified. I need not remind the House of the names of those great ministers of Native Powers—Sarlar Jung, Madhava Rao, Pinker Rao, and Jung Bahadoor, the famous Mayor of the Palace of Nepaul. And just as all the Indian world knows the fame of these eminent men, so the public opinion of every province can point to Natives intellectually and morally not one whit inferior to the best among our own countrymen. In Madras, for instance, when there was a question of a complicated operation connected with the annual assessment, it was universally allowed that, throughout the whole Covenanted and Uncovenanted Service, there was no one so fitted for the job as a Native employée called Ramiah. And how was this man rewarded? The Government gave him the best post they legally could: that is to say, they made him a sort of subordinate adviser to the Revenue authorities of the Presidency. Now, would the position of such a man be bettered by my hon. Friend's proposition? When you have such a man ready to hand it is a farce to examine him in geology, and to ask him what play the quotation "When Greek meets Greek" comes from. The evils which the system of competition is intended to remedy are two. First, the ignorance of those who are possessed of patronage, as to the merits of the candidates for that patronage; and next, the tendency in all human beings to nepotism and favouritism. But in the case before us neither of these dangers exists. The resident, authorities who have the patronage are well informed as to the merits and services of their Native subordinates; and there is no temptation to jobbery, for in the eyes of an Englishman, as far as favouritism is concerned, one Native is much the same as another. And therefore, Sir, the House might safely adopt my Amendment, which could be carried into practical effect by the least possible degree of change in the law. The 3rd and 4th clauses of the Civil Service Act allow the Authority; in India to appoint any person to any office whatsoever, under special circumstances; provided he has resided at least seven years in India. Now, all that is really required is, that the provisions of these sections should be relieved from their exceptional character; and that it should be declared, on the authority of this House, that the selection for vacant appointments of qualified persons on the spot is to be considered as regular and normal a mode of recruiting: the Civil Service, as nominating young men to it from this country according to the result of a competitive examination. Thus we should have two permanent sources of supply for the India Civil Service: one would be derived, as at present, from the competition at home of the youth of the whole Empire; the other, from a careful selection made in India itself of persons distinguished in the Uncovenanted Service and at the Native Bar. We should take a signal step towards raising the character and educating the intellect of the Natives, and so gradually rendering them fit to govern themselves. And for what other purpose are we in India at all? No purpose, at any rate, which we can confess before Europe and before the tribunal of history. We should imitate what was wisest in the policy of old Rome, as expressed by Gibbon in a most eloquent passage. But we need not go so far back, nor to such a distance from the country whose future we are discussing. There are examples nearer India. Akbar, the greatest of the great Mahomedan Emperors, opened the field of employment and distinction, in the most liberal manner to Hindoos—the conquered and subject race; and his fame and power were equally brilliant and durable. Aurengzebe pursued a different course. He sent orders to all governors and persons in authority to employ no more Hindoos, but to confer the higher offices on Mahomedans only: and from that day the Mogul Empire began to go to pieces, as must be the fate of all empires which rest on force, not on affection; on national monopoly of rule and honour, not on open and entire confidence between the governors and the governed. He would beg leave to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice.

said, that annually a number of Native young men of the highest intellectual and mental calibre took degrees in India by passing similar examinations to those which were necessary to the conferring of the same degrees in this country. And yet men who exhibited such capacity and attained those degrees were excluded from the Civil Service of India unless they passed examinations in this country which were by no means so hard as those they had already gone through. This was the practice, in spite of the fact that the Vote for the Education of the Natives of India amounted to £904,190, or more than was at present expended in the same direction on the people of this country. He certainly thought that those Natives who obtained such degrees as those of B.A., M.A., and M.D. ought to be permitted at once to enter the Civil Service and not be compelled to come to England for the purpose of undergoing a fresh examination. Certainly it would be advantageous to Indian aspirants to pass some time in England, as it would enlarge their views and give an improved tone to their minds, and young Indians might be induced to come to Europe if scholarships should be established in this country for those who looked to rise in the service of the Government. These scholarships would enable young Indians to obtain advantages which they could not procure in their native country. The support which we received from the Nepaulese troops in the suppression of the mutiny in 1857, we owed to the visit which Jung Bahadoor had paid to England. He (Colonel Sykes) was enabled to learn from his friendship with Jung Bahadoor, that when the Bengal mutiny broke out, delegates were sent by the mutineers to the Nepaul Court inviting co-operation against the English. A great meeting of the Court nobles and chiefs of the army was held, find the general sentiment was in favour of joining the mutineers; but Jung Bahadoor rose and said he too would have concurred in the opinions expressed, had he not paid a visit to England; but he saw there such industry, such energy, and such indomitable perseverance in conquering difficulties, that although the mutineers might at first succeed and drive the English to the coast, they would be involved in the end in defeat and ruin. Happily his advice prevailed, and the Nepaulese army joined the English, and Jung Bahadoor's prediction was verified. On the whole, therefore, he (Colonel Sykes) would encourage Natives to finish their studies in England.

explained that it was part of his scheme that successful competitors should reside two years in England.

said, he was also opposed to the Amendment, believing that it would be worse than of no service to the Natives; but he believed the time was arriving, and educated people were accumulating so fast in India, and the self-respect and importance of the Native population were extending so rapidly, that some suitable and dignified positions must be obtained for them in our service, in order to ensure their attachment, instead of exciting their jealousy and resentment.

said, that having for two years been brought, in his capacity of Examiner, into contact with the candidates for the Indian Civil Service, he wished to make some brief remarks on the subject before the House. The question of competitive examinations was indirectly raised by the Motion of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett), and he was obliged to confess that his experience led him to doubt very much the efficiency of that system, and to doubt whether it was better than the old system of patronage. It was far from a good method of providing for the Civil Service of India. He had had a good deal to do with the people of India; and the feeling among them undoubtedly was that the class of men now sent out to represent this country were inferior to the men sent out under the old system, and could not acquire in the same degree the respect of the Natives. The civil servants were now degenerating into a lower class of society, and there was rising up in the different Presidencies a new class of independent Englishmen, especially at the Bar, who looked down on the Civil Service. His hon. Friend the Member for Brighton had said that he intended by his Motion to provide that those who were appointed to the Civil Service by the competition by examination in Calcutta should reside two years in England. If the Motion expressed that, he should view it in a different light—not on the ground put forward by his hon. Friend who sat near him (Mr. Trevelyan), that the candidates would be more impressed with the irresistible power of this country, but because they would have learnt the principles and morality of this country. As to the mere question of learning, however, it might happen that the English competitors would be placed at a disadvantage as compared with young Indians of the same age, who, though less fit to discharge the responsible duties imposed upon them, would have greater facilities for preparing themselves for an examination. If he were to chose between the Motion and the Amendment, he should prefer the latter; because it was based on the principle that our great object was not so much to secure men who were able to pass a good examination in languages and mathematics as men imbued with the spirit and tone of this country.

said, it was not without some regret that he felt himself obliged to oppose the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, for in the object aimed at he was disposed to agree very much with the hon. Gentleman, as he naturally desired to promote, as far as possible, the employment of Natives of India in the Civil Service and government of that country. He was con- scious that the offer now made to the Natives of India—that they should present themselves at the competitive examinations in this country—was at all events at present little more than a nominal opening for Natives, though he hoped, that by-and-by, it would become something more. At present, however, it was only with great difficulty that Natives could pass such an examination. Although he was unable to accept the proposal of the hon. Member for Brighton, he should be extremely glad to adopt a system by which competition might be adopted in the first cities of India. This matter was brought under his attention some time ago by a deputation which waited upon him—he believed in July or August last—at the India Office. He listened to their statements, and promised to consult the Governor General and other persons of authority on the subject. He did so, and one or two objections of a subordinate character had been suggested, such as the difficulties of a mechanical kind as to the mode of carrying the examination into effect; but he believed, from representations he had had from the Civil Service Examiners, that those objections might be very readily got over. He believed that examinations upon paper might be conducted in the way suggested by the hon. Gentleman; but with regard to vivâ voce examinations, it would be difficult to find a proper standard of comparison. The difficulty would be to compare the vivâ voce examinations conducted in one place with those conducted in another. He attached great weight to these vivâ voce examinations, as they showed that the candidate was able to make use of the knowledge he had acquired on the spur of the moment, when unexpected questions were put to him. Another objection to the proposal would be that the examinations should be held in many more centres than the two or three suggested by the hon. Member, if they were intended to be accessible to certain classes of the Natives. A further objection that might be suggested was, that if the proposal were adopted, it might at some future period be urged that the nature of the examination was of a character not suitable to the people of India, and considerable pressure might be brought to bear for the purpose of getting the standard of examination altered, under the pretence of adapting it to the capabilities of the Natives—an alteration that would be much to be lamented, as the service as now constituted was one of which England had every right to be proud. The hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate) had made some observations upon what he called the deterioration of the Civil Service in India under the system of competitive examinations; but it was doubtful whether, upon a full and impartial inquiry, any grounds existed for that complaint. It was quite true that when a change of system occurred, the minds of the Natives were prejudiced against those who were appointed under the new system, and were disposed to look jealously upon them; but, from recent information, he had reason to believe that that feeling on the part of the Natives had passed away, and that the merits of the new coiners as a body had been acknowledged by them. The present system was still going on, and those appointed under the competitive examination system had scarcely yet risen to the higher posts in the Service; but, within his own knowledge, two of those gentlemen who were now in this country, and who were among the first of those who were appointed under that system, were as promising and as distinguished young men as were to be found in the service of the country. On the whole, he had reason to believe that the system answered exceedingly well, and was likely to prove of the greatest advantage to the service. Another danger he should apprehend from the adoption of the hon. Member's proposal was this:—It was not improbable that a large number of Natives who might succeed in passing the competitive examination, and who might be perfectly fit for the lower posts of the service, would be totally unfit for its higher and more responsible posts, and the Government of India might hold it contrary to their duty to promote those persons to those positions—a course that would be likely to promote jealousy and heart-burnings among the Natives, who might consider that they were not fairly treated by being excluded from the more important positions in the service. In such an event the Government of India would probably feel called upon to obtain the required strength of will and of mind by having recourse to the Uncovenanted European Civil Service, instead of to the Covenanted Civil Service. He was exceedingly jealous of the Uncovenanted Service being employed in posts that should be filled by the Covenanted Service; because although there were, doubtless, many posts that might with propriety be bestowed upon those who had not passed through the test of competitive examination, still there should be great jealousy in admitting persons into the service through any other door than that furnished by examination, otherwise considerable pressure would be brought to bear upon those who had the patronage of those appointments. Everyone conversant with the subject must feel that the great safety of the service in India lay in recruiting as far as possible the European branch of the service from the Covenanted Service. These were the reasons which induced him to pause and hesitate before he could sanction any such proposal as that suggested by the hon. Gentleman; and these reasons were confirmed by the views of those who were well qualified to speak upon the subject, being those who were practically engaged in carrying on the Government of India—men who were favourable to the employment of Natives in India, whose sympathies were in their favour, and who were desirous of making the Native Indian our friend—and they were of opinion that the adoption of the proposal of the hon. Member would be a measure fraught with much inconvenience and even serious danger. He wished to say a few words upon what appeared to him to be the rationale of the competitive examination system. He had always been an advocate for that system as a mode of obtaining young men for the Civil Service both for this country and for India. While that system did not necessarily secure that all those who passed through the examination were the fittest for discharging the duties of Government clerks and those which fell upon our civil servants, still upon the whole it was the fairest way of ascertaining, who among a large number of young men, had established, by their previous good conduct and application, a character for industry and ability, which was strong evidence to show that at least they formed a fair average of the class from which they were taken. But then the question arose, whether the average of the class of Native Indians from which the selection would have to be made was possessed of the necessary ruling and governing qualities to the extent those qualities were possessed by the corresponding class in this country—whether the Native Indians were possessed of the fibre required in men who were to be intrusted with political power and authority? It must be borne in mind that these men were selected to fill very important posts. They might be well fitted to fill the lower posts, but those who filled the higher posts of the service were frequently placed in situations where great responsibility fell upon them, and where men were required who were not only truly trustworthy as to integrity, but who in trying positions would not be afraid to act, and who could stand alone. They must have the vigour to control those who were under their authority, whether of the same race or another, because there would always be a considerable number of Englishmen and Europeans with whom superior officials would have to deal. Without casting any reflection upon the Native character as a whole, he much doubted whether an average Native was able to stand alone and to control the Englishmen under his jurisdiction. Therefore the competitive system, applied in an unfettered way, was not suitable for providing the class of men wanted. He was afraid the effect of it would be to bring in a large number of individuals of intellectual ability who would not have the strength required for administration. It was urged that we should do all we could to benefit the people of India. Everybody admitted that; but who were the people of India, and for whose benefit were we to to rule? If they adopted the theory of the hon. Member for Brighton, it would only be that class or section of the people of India who would carry off these appointments—a very small section of the community. It should be carefully remembered that we had to provide for the government of 150,000,000 of people, amongst whom only a small class could be described as intellectual. Our duty, therefore, primarily was to provide the best possible machinery for the good government of the whole mass, rather than for a small portion. Even were the system of competitive examination advocated by the hon. Member introduced, what would be the result? The Bengalese and other sects of the less vigorous but more educated races of India would be the class chiefly benefited. They would carry off the prizes in an examination of a purely intellectual character; but they were just the men who would conspicuously fail if you placed them in positions of difficulty, or set them to rule over the more vigorous races that we had under our sway. They would be employed without the advantages of Englishmen, without the prestige of the English race, and without the energy of the English character; and we could not rely upon their being treated with that esteem which in the East is attached to persons distinguished by birth and family connection. Under these circumstances, we ought to be cautions how we throw open the door by competitive examinations. This opinion was coincided in by many of those most favourable to the employment of Natives, including Sir John Lawrence, Sir Bartle Frere, and Sir Herbert Edwards; and the latter, in a paper lately read before the East India Association, spoke with great hesitation as to the morale and integrity of the great mass of the people of India. Attached to the pamphlet in which this was published were a number of letters, all purporting to be in favour of the employment of Natives; but there was scarcely one writer who boldly stated his opinion that the Natives, as a class, were to be relied on for the moral qualities required in rulers. He was afraid that any kind of test that could be applied in the shape of testimonials and inquiries as to character would be feeble security. Another reason for pausing was, that if once they entered into the system, they would be obliged to go on with it, no matter what might be the difficulties into which it might throw them. He would not close the door for ever against examinations; but there were other measures more suitable to the emergency which would do much towards introducing Natives freely. The first was that of scholarships; and if young men could be assisted to present themselves for examination in this country, and to receive a certain education here, much would be done to imbue them with English feelings; and even if they failed on examination, they would not have had their time thrown away, because they would have learnt much that would be useful to them. There was every disposition on the part of the Government to assist those who gained scholarships, and it was proposed to pay their passages out and home. It was suggested that, if the system succeeded, further scholarships might be created by the Government; and, by degrees, young men might be brought over and passed through the mill with competitors upon equal terms. This would provide a test of moral qualities, for it would show courage, vigour, and self-reliance for a young man to expatriate himself, and it would indicate that he was above the average in moral strength and fibre. There was another measure substantially the same as that embodied in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trevelyan), who, however, did not draw a sufficiently sharp dis- tinction between the Covenanted and Uncovenanted Civil Service. That distinction was a matter of great importance. At present there were about 870 covenanted civil servants in India, with salaries ranging from about £360 to upwards of £5,000, few having more than that. The Uncovenanted servants, leaving the lowest appointments out of consideration, and including those whose salaries ranged from £250 to £1,000 and £1,500 (a few reaching £2,000), numbered 2,336. The average of the salaries of the Covenanted servants was £1,800, and that of the Uncovenanted servants £520. [Colonel SYKES remarked that Europeans held the highest paid positions.] Not exclusively, for there were fifteen Natives receiving salaries of upwards of £1,000, and several receiving upwards of £500. Unquestionably the number of Natives admitted into the Service was miserably small, and that the Government was endeavouring to remedy as soon as possible. Last year he had drawn the attention of the Governor General to the fact in a despatch, and had asked his opinion as to the possibility of finding a better opening for the employment of Native talent. The Governor General replied that steps were being taken to introduce a larger proportion of Natives in the non-Regulation Provinces. To that he replied it would not be necessary to confine the measure to the non-Regulation Provinces, but that it should likewise be carried out in the Regulation Provinces. With regard to the judicial service, Sir John Lawrence thought that, while it might be dangerous to throw it open widely to Natives, much might be done to employ Natives in it. His intention was to insert in his India Bill a clause giving the Government power to introduce Natives of India into appointments held by the Covenanted Service, if they were proved fit for them; and that would be a better mode of selection than the system of competitive examinations. At all events, it would be safe; and if it proved inefficient they might resort to other measures in order to give it extension. It was the earnest and sincere desire of the Government both here and in India to introduce the Natives into important positions in the service. It would be for the benefit of our rule, it would be of importance for India itself, that the Natives should be educated to govern themselves mid their own affairs. They believed that an immense improvement was going on among the Natives, and would be gradually productive of beneficial change; but it was most important that nothing rash or hasty should be done. He believed that the step taken would give considerable impulse to that improvement, and to the real interests of Native agency, far beyond anything that had hitherto been done. He hoped, therefore, that having introduced a clause to give effect to the principle of the Amendment, it would not be thought necessary to press either the Motion or the Amendment to a division in order to commit the House to any positive view. He was very glad this discussion had taken place. They were taking action on the subject both in their correspondence with India, and in the measure they were submitting to Parliament, and he hoped the feeling of the House had been sufficiently manifested without taking a division.

said, that after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, he would not divide the House on his Motion. The right hon. Gentleman did not seem to impugn his Motion, but simply wished to try something else first. He should be doing an injustice to the question by now dividing, and he would have the opportunity of expressing his opinion when the Bill to which the Secretary of State for India had referred was before the House. He should support a scheme to enable the Natives to take a part in the government of their country. The Amendment, indeed, was not antagonistic to his proposal. It was simply to enable officers to pass from the Uncovenanted to the Covenanted service without coming to England to pass an examination. At the same time he thought that the people of India would not be satisfied at their being obliged to spend so many years in the Uncovenanted Service before they could enter the Covenanted, when, if they came to England and passed the examination, they could enter at once. All that the proposition of the Government meant was to admit persons that the Governor General thought fit to enter the Covenanted Service, and he thought that that would not be quite satisfactory to the people of India.