, who had given Notice of his intention to move a series of new clauses, proposed the omission of all the words after "sixty-eight" down to the end of that clause, in order to insert the words "the occupier of every mine in England and Wales producing coal, clay, stone, salt, or ore, shall be rated in respect thereof for the relief of the poor.''

suggested, that as the proposals of the hon. Member were more in the nature of an alternative Bill than of Amendments, it would be most convenient to take the discussion upon them at once as a whole; and then, if the hon. Gentleman succeeded in carrying the first of them on a division, that decision might be accepted as a decision upon them all.

said, he wished seriously to call the attention of the Government to the great importance of that measure. Its object, which was generally approved, was the rating of certain property which had hitherto been exempt from rating. But now it also proposed to make serious alterations in the manner of rating coal mines, which were already subject to rates; and he thought a question of that great importance ought not to be embodied in the Bill without due notice to the whole country. It affected not simply the coal owners, who might as a body be in favour of the change, as it would give them a considerable relief; but it likewise affected the interest of all other classes of ratepayers. Therefore, although he certainly did not wish to oppose the further progress of a Bill to which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Percy Wyndham) had devoted so much time and pains, he thought it would be more acceptable, both to the hon. Member himself and also to the House generally, that they should receive from Her Majesty's Government an assurance that they would take up the whole question as regarded coal mines and other mines in a future Session.

said, he for one had come to the conclusion that the only way of dealing fairly with the question of rating was to do away with all exemptions. His hon. Friend would, he might add, in his opinion, do well not to press his Bill this Session. The subject was one on which he could not take it upon himself to legislate now; indeed, it belonged to another Department of the Government; but he confessed he should like to see the whole question of exemptions dealt with in one Bill.

said, he believed that the House was pretty well agreed that mines should be rated; and the only remaining question was, on what principle the rating should be assessed. His own opinion was that all mines should be rated upon the same principle as coal mines; and he thought a simple enactment might be passed declaring that the words "coal mines" in the statute of Elizabeth should be held to include all mines. As to the course which the Government were prepared to take in the matter he could give no definite promise. All he could say was that his Department would give it due consideration during the Recess; and he should be very glad if he were enabled to introduce a measure dealing with it next Session.

said, that there were no two parishes in England in which mines were rated on the same principle.

said, he could not help thinking that the House had all the information on the subject that was necessary to enable it to legislate upon it with advantage. The Bill did not interfere in the least with the principle on which coal mines were rated. It simply proposed to obviate the complaints that mines were rated in the most contradictory manner. The real question before the Committee, he believed, was whether the word "occupier" should be inserted in the clause; and he was opposed to that being done, because it was necessary to retain the provision that the owner might by agreement pay the rate. In Derbyshire alone there were between fifty and sixty mines, the royalty on which did not exceed 5s.; and if it were made compulsory that the occupier should be rated great inconvenience in that county would be the result.

said he thought the proceedings of the Committee would be facilitated if it were decided that the Bill should hare nothing to do with coal mines.

contended that the proposition for a deduction of 33 per cent was one which ought to be thoroughly considered by the House before it was adopted. He did not think it had been so considered, and his hon. Friend would in his opinion act wisely in withdrawing, at all events, that part of the clause.

said, he would suggest that, as there seemed to be so much difficulty with respect to the assessing of coal mines, it would be well that the portion of the Bill relating to it should be withdrawn, to be re-introduced next Session in a better form by the Government. In Lancashire three or four different plans of assessment prevailed, and it would be desirable that one uniform system should be established.

said, he wished to point out that mining in Cornwall was at present in a depressed condition, and that if this principle of rating were applied there it would greatly aggravate the distress. The copper mines among others should be very tenderly dealt with.

said, he objected to the application of a particular mode of rating to particular descriptions of property. He thought that all property liable to pay poor rates should be rated according to the general system, and that it would be inexpedient to lay down a special principle with regard to the assessment of mines. All that was necessary was a short clause to abolish the exemption from rating which had hitherto existed in favour of certain underground property, by declaring that every description of mines, not liable to be rated to local rates, should in future be liable to such rates. The general law would then take effect. Another question for consideration was whether, if the law under which persons held leases of property at a fixed rent was suddenly changed, it would be right that they should bear the whole burden of a new rate. He suggested that, in rating for the first time property which was never before rated, it would be only a just provision to divide the payment of the new rate between the landlord and lessee. He conceived that the enactment of two such provisions as he had just mentioned was all that was necessary.

said, he was glad that many difficulties had been cleared away—difficulties which arose chiefly from the variety of absurd conditions under which mining operations were carried on. But that House would make a great mistake if they laid down fixed modes of assessing mines. As a representative of a large coal district, he had always felt that there was very great injustice in the exemption of other forms of mining from the payment of rates, and he was prepared to accept the principle that all mines should be liable to be rated. He believed that the effect of rating mines would in many cases be to shut them; but the question was whether it would not be charitable to do so, because at present they were being worked at a loss. The coal trade of the North had agreed that if the deduction of 33⅓ per cent in their favour suggested by the Valuation Committee of last year were allowed they would consent to be placed in the same category as all other mines.

said, he regretted that the question of rating woods and plantations had not been dealt with in the Bill.

protested against this wholesale system of rating mines, the country having received no sufficient notice that such a measure was to be brought forward. The subject was much too important to be handled by a private Member. In his opinion the Government ought to take the matter into their own hands. He would recommend that the assessment of coal mines should be dealt with by a special Bill, to be introduced by the Government next Session.

said, he would vote for no measure that would transfer the rate from the owner to the occupier.

said, that everyone who had spoken appeared to be in favour of the principle of the Bill, but as he did not wish that at that period of the Session some measure on the subject should be delayed in passing through the House, he suggested that hon. Members having Amendments to propose should not press them, but allow the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) to move his Amendment, in favour of which he should give his vote, or he might run the chance of losing the Bill altogether.

declined to withdraw his Amendment.

said, that if the Committee agreed to that Amendment he would immediately after propose the one he had already described to the House.

opposed the Amendment. He was very much afraid that profits would be rated.

also opposed the Amendment. Although he was quite willing that mines should be rated, those in Cornwall were in an exceptional condition.

said, he could not understand the peculiar exceptional character of the Cornish mines. If they were exhausted or nearly so, the Assessment Committee would prove the fact, or it would be their duty to ascertain it.

said, all the mines that would be rated under this clause would be rated upon the principle at present adopted, all the circumstances being considered. The measure of the rate would be the value of the mine—that was to say, what could be got as a reasonable rent for a certain number of years. It would have no reference to profits.

said, he thought the Amendment was fraught with danger.

said, he thought that the occupier should be rated.

said, the question as to the mode of rating arose more properly upon the succeeding clauses of the Bill.

said, that nothing could be more absurd than the notion about mines being rated on profits. In his part of the country the only consideration with the Assessment Committee was the rent that a tenant would give from year to year.

said, that in consequence of the acceptance of his Amendment the other clauses of the Bill were rendered unnecessary or inapplicable. The only question that remained was as to the proportion of the rate to be paid by the landlord. This was a matter of considerable importance, and it would be better to report Progress and bring up a well-considered clause on the Report.

staled that the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), in conjunction with himself, would propose a clause on the bringing up of the Report to settle the proportion of the rates to be paid by the landlord and the tenant.

objected, on the ground that the old Councillors were appointed under the Act of 1858, for ten years, at a salary of £1,200 a year, with the prospect of holding their offices for life or receiving a pension on retiring at the end of the ten years. To propose now that they should cease to serve at the end of their ten years and receive no pension was unjust, especially as the new Councillors would be appointed at £1,500, and would accept the increase of salary in place of the prospect of a pension. He admitted the Act of 1858 would permit them to deprive the old Councillors of their pensions, but he contended that to do so would be straining it.

said, he thought it so necessary that some limit should be put to the term for which the old Councillors should serve that he was quite willing to allow them the pension.

said, the time had expired for dealing with this matter.

said, the time had not expired. The Act under which the present Councillors were appointed expressly stipulated that Parliament should have the power of re-considering the terms on which they accepted office. This being so, he thought it monstrous that anyone should say, "The ten years is nearly up; these men have served with the prospect of a pension during these ten years; and therefore it would be unjust to step in and say, Parliament, on re-consideration, could not grant the pensions." He hoped the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for India would consider the question in a reasonable and intelligent manner. It would be better even to let them serve ten years more at £1,500 than that no limit should be agreed on. He might observe that they were for the most part in the receipt of pensions paid out of the revenues of India, and incidentally he must protest against the double system of pensions now growing up; pensions were obtained for special services in India from the Indian Government in India, and then they were obtained again, on the general ground of length of service, from the Indian Revenue, through the Office in England.

said, that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had forgotten one matter—namely, that the pensions from India were bought, being derived from stoppages from pay. He (Mr. Stuart Mill) quite agreed that an ample salary rendered a retiring pension unnecessary. But there would be a hardship if, when the expectation of pensions had been held out to the existing Councillors, they were deprived of pensions in the end. If an increase of salary were to be given instead, that increase should range over a fresh series of ten years. But the reason which induced the House to limit the service of future Councillors should prevent it from con- tinuing the old for another ten years. He, therefore, recommended the Committee to agree to give the old members an opportunity of serving for another five years at the increased salary, or else to grant them a pension at the end of the ten years.

said, he thought faith ought to be kept with the old Councillors, and that common honesty required it should be optional with them whether they accepted any new terms in place of those under which they took office. He did not see why the salary should be raised to £1,500, because many of the Councillors would soon have a right to a Civil Service pension on account of thirty years' service.

said, he thought it morally out of the power of Parliament to withhold the pension, because virtually the full term had expired, and it was in consequence of that expiration the Bill was brought in. If the old Councillors had served only five years, the propriety of granting the pensions might be questioned; but it only wanted some forty days of the ten years.

said, the Act would never have passed if it had been supposed that the appointments would have the permanent character now claimed for them. He would, however, support the suggestion of the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill), which seemed to be a fair compromise between the proposition of the noble Lord and that of the Government.

said, he thought the suggestion of the hon. Member for Westminster could best be dealt with in a new clause. At present he was neither prepared to accept nor to reject the proposition, but desiring fully to consider it, he recommended the withdrawal of the Amendment and the introduction of a new clause, to which he promised to give careful consideration.

said, he would be happy to bring up a new clause.

said, he rose to move that the salary of the new Councillors should be £1,200, and not £1,500. Some officers of State received no more, and members of the Board of Admiralty received only £1,000. Feeling that there might be an injustice in turning members of the Council adrift without recognition of their services, he thought that a graduated scale of pensions might not be indefensible. But there was a great danger of rushing into extremes in such a matter. He thought it very undesirable that, under pretence of introducing "fresh blood," officials should be elected to the Council immediately upon their return from India, as any misgovernment which might have attended their administration would thereby be condoned. We were bound to consider the revenues of India even more than our own, because the people of India were not represented in that House. He thought it little creditable to the Government that, in a Bill brought forward with such a flourish of trumpets, the principal clause should be to improve the position of the members of the Council, an institution which he regarded as of very questionable utility, as he considered that they had only proved themselves obstructives. No reason had been shown for fixing these salaries at £1,500 each, and he therefore moved that they be reduced to £1,200.

said, that if it were not proposed to give retiring pensions to men of the class whose service it was sought to enlist, they ought at least to pay them proper salaries. The hon. Gentleman, he thought, would have shown better taste and more discretion had he consulted those having official knowledge of the subject about the labours which members of the Council were actually called on to undertake before submitting his present Amendment. The Councillors were a very hard-working body of men, and were quite entitled to £1.500 a year each.

said, that if it was not for the Council the Government of India would be left wholly to the Secretary of State—who before his appointment was generally ignorant of Indian affairs—and to such irresponsible persons as he might choose to consult, who if he had a pre-conceived opinion would be likely to share it. The Secretary of State would be left with no regular assistance but that of the subordinates in his office. Of the latter, having himself been included in the number, he entertained, generally speaking, a very high opinion; but he did not think Parliament and the country would approve of handing over the government of India entirely to them. It was absolutely necessary that there should be associated with them some men of standing, of professional knowledge, and practical acquaintance with India, whose names and character were known to the public. It was also necessary that such salaries should be given them as would induce them to continue in their offices. Although yielding to no one in his desire for economy, he did not think that retrenchment was judicious when it took the form of stinting the remuneration for the best and most difficult work. It was possible they might get very much the same class of men for £1,200 as for £1,500; but, in the absence of a pension, he did not think the latter amount excessive.

said, that the salary of £1,200 hitherto had been accompanied with some expectation of a pension. In proposing, therefore, to fix it at £1,200, without any pension, the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway) was practically lowering their position. He entirely agreed with the view taken by the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill) and thought the sum proposed by the Bill by no means too great.

said, that the proposal in the Bill was not to improve the position of existing members of the Council. The increase of salary applied only to future appointments. The House had decided that in justice Members of the Council should be appointed for a term of years only; and then came the question what was to happen on the expiration of that term. Clearly, it would not be right to lay on the revenues of India an indefinite number of pensions; but if not, they must be prepared to pay the fair market value of those services which they desired to obtain. The persons required were those whose names would carry' weight, not only here, but in India; for if we rested merely upon clerks brought up and trained in this country, however valuable their assistance might be, it would fail entirely to command that sort of respect which attached to the recommendation of persons whose names were familiarly known. On the other hand, by introducing into the Council men of different careers, who had served in different parts of India, and who looked upon questions in a totally different light from that in which purely official minds regarded them, very obvious advantages were gained. A discussion arose upon a recent occasion in the Council with regard to the mode in which a certain canal was to be made, and the territories through which it was to pass. As far as the correspondence went, or the information otherwise in possession of the Department, no special question appeared to arise. But when the matter was mentioned at the Council there were circumstances known to one or two of the members which raised a very important political question, that otherwise never would have attracted attention, and threw a flood of light upon the whole matter. It must be remembered, also, that the Secretary of State for India was in a different position from that of any other Secretary of State coming fresh to the business of his Department. The Secretary of State for the Home Department, or the First Lord of the Admiralty, for instance, lived in an official atmosphere in which they must be certain to gain valuable information; they were constantly meeting people also who set them right if they were going wrong. But the Indian Minister had no such chances thrown in his way. The Indian newspapers formed but a very imperfect source of information, while the chance visits to England of distinguished personages could hardly be relied upon as means of obtaining accurate information, seeing that these were not in any way bound to give information, or responsible for such intelligence as they might think proper to give. Hence, there was a real and pressing necessity for the existence of a Council, composed of the best men that could be procured. And, bearing in mind that there was a great demand in mercantile life for the special kind of knowledge which they possessed, the salaries offered by the Government ought not to be of a niggardly character. The proposal embodied in the clause as it stood was a fair one, and he hoped it would be adopted by the Committee.

thought it would be false economy to reduce the pension of members of Council, as proposed by the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway).