:^* Mr. Speaker, I wish at the onset, in reference to the Notice which stands in my name on the Paper, to call your attention to the fact that I propose to limit the term over which the Return I ask for should extend, in such a manner as I hope will facilitate the production of part, at all events, of the information of which I think it desirable that the House should be in possession. The Motion in its present shape is for—

"An Address for Return showing 'the number of Deeds or Instruments enrolled in the High Court of Chancery under the Act 23 & 24 Vic. c. 134, being an Act to amend the Law regarding the Roman Catholic Charities, and under any subsequent Act relating to or enlarging or extending the said Act, giving the names of the Trustees; the date of their execution of such deeds or instruments; and a summary or short description, together with the number of acres, of the property to which such deeds or instruments relate."

And I desire, Sir, to alter this Notice by inserting the words "during the last three years" after the word "enrolled," in the second line, and trust that you will make this insertion before you propose the Notice from the Chair. The House will be glad to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary will consent to the production of this information, since I have not received any answer to a communication which I have addressed to him? In anticipation, however, of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to explain to the House that early in the present Session, on the 26th of February last, I moved for a Committee of this House to inquire into the operation of the Roman Catholic Charities Act of 1860, and also into the Burials Registration Act of 1864. I acted, Sir, in conjunction with Sir Charles Selwyn and Sir William Bovill, when Members of this House, in their support of the late Sir George Cornewall Lewis, who promoted the passing of the former of these statutes in 1860, and on the 26th of February last I made a statement with regard to the Roman Catholic Charities Act. The purport of that statement I will repeat as briefly as possible. In the year 1853, after an inquiry as to the Roman Catholic charitable property had been instituted by a Committee of this House, which extended through the Sessions of 1851 and 1852, the Government of that day determined upon introducing a Bill for the better regulation of charities generally by providing for their proper registration, with a view to prevent those great abuses the existence of which had been known to Parliament ever since the year 1818, when the late Lord Brougham moved for a Committee, which still bears his name, and thus broke the ice for future legislation on the subject. Notwithstanding Lord Brougham's exertions, however, it was not until the year 1835 that there was any serious prospect of legislation; and then an Act was contemplated to empower Commissioners to inquire concerning the state of charities generally. The difficulty which the Act of 1860 was intended to remove then first appeared. In the year 1835 the Roman Catholic Members of this House objected to the inquiry proposed to be made by the Commissioners then to be appointed by statute, because they feared the discovery of certain violations of the Act against superstitious uses in the conditions upon which part of the property connected with their religion was held; and in consequence of their re-monstances no powers of inquiry with respect to Roman Catholic charity property were intrusted to the Commissioners who were appointed in the year 1835. I think I cannot do better, Sir, than quote a few words from the speech of Lord Chelmsford, then Sir Frederick Thesiger, in the year 1853, in order to show to the House in the tersest manner possible how the Legislature arrived at a similar determination with respect to the statute of that year. On the 4th of August Sir Frederick Thesiger said—

"He wished to remind the noble Lord of the Bills which had been introduced from 1844 down- ward, for the purpose of establishing a Board for the administration of charitable trusts. In 1844, 1845, 1846, Bills were introduced in the House of Lords by Lord Lyndhurst. In 1847, 1848, 1849, and 1850, Bills were introduced under the Government of the noble Lord by the late Lord Cottenham. In 1852 another Bill was introduced by the noble Lord and his Government, which Bill was taken up by Lord Derby's Government, who endeavoured to pass it into a law. Now, he would ask the noble Lord if any of these Bills contained any exemptions respecting Roman Catholic trusts. If these Bills never contemplated such exemptions, surely that was an argument more forcible than any which the noble Lord had drawn from the exemptions in the Acts passed, not for the purposes of legislation, but merely for the establishment of preliminary inquiries,"—[3 Hansard, cxxix. 1256.]

That, Sir, was said by Sir Frederick Thesiger, in remonstrance against the exemption of the Roman Catholic charity property from the general Act of 1853, proposed by Lord John Russell. Whilst speaking on that occasion, Sir Frederick Thesiger adverted to this circumstance—

"An hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Chisholm Anstey), formerly a Member of that House, who, in 1847, proposed to introduce a Bill for the regulation of Roman Catholic Trusts—on that occasion the hon. and learned Member said—'The trustees of the Roman Catholic charities may be guilty of any amount of maladministration without the Roman Catholics—for whose benefit the trust was created—daring to ask relief, because the issue of an application with that object may be a declaration that the charity was ab initio illegal, and continued illegal."'—[Ibid. 1258.]

These were the words of Mr. Chisholm Anstey, who in 1847 introduced a Bill intended to obviate this difficulty. Lord Russell stated, in answer to Sir Frederick Thesiger, as his apology for excluding Roman Catholic charity property from the general Act of 1853, that, after the Bill had been read a second time, Roman Catholic Members came to him and urged that it was positively necessary that their charities should be exempted, on the same ground that their exemption was claimed in 1835. Thus, in 1853, the Roman Catholic Members distinctly claimed separate legislation with respect to their charitable -trusts, and although the House showed great unwillingness to comply with their wishes, and the granting of the proposal was carried by a majority of 11 only, still, for seven years after that date, nothing was done with respect to the Roman Catholic charities, notwithstanding that we had it upon the authority of a Roman Catholic lawyer in this House that very gross abuses existed in the administration of these charities; that fact, Sir, was proved before the Select Committee of 1851 and 1852 on evidence which was perfectly unimpeachable, the evidence of Roman Catholic priests and others, who complained that they had been deprived of their interest in, had been defeated in objects for which they had acquired property, and devoted it to Roman Catholic charitable uses, by the authority from Rome, by the exercise of influences which they deprecated, and by means which the law ought to have stayed, but which it could not reach, for the simple reason that there was no statute applying to the peculiar circumstances of Roman Catholic charity property in this country. Well, in the year 1860, as I have already stated, the two learned Members of this House whose names I have mentioned, with myself, agreed to tender our support for this purpose to Sir George Lewis, and the Act passed, with the high approval of Lord Campbell, which he expressed first to myself and afterwards in the House of Lords. Unfortunately, the then Attorney General, Sir Richard Bethell—since Lord Westbury—had introduced a clause into that Bill which, from the first, Sir Charles Selwyn warned the House would have the effect of defeating the whole object of the enactment, which was valid enrolment. I allude to the 5th clause. I will not go into its details further than to say that I am a competent witness to the fact, that the liberal intention of the House was to validate all trusts for Roman Catholic uses, which had been held for that purpose for twenty years, without inquiring at all as to whether the titles were invalidated under Lord Hardwicke's Act by any malpractices or by any circumstances whatever; but there was no intention on the part of the House to give that which was intended to be a retrospective provision a prospective effect. I understand, however, that this clause has been so construed that if any person chooses to place in the hands of any Roman Catholic trustees property for charitable uses, and that arrangement remains unquestioned for twenty years from the time of the gift; that after the expiration of the twenty years, according to this statute, there is no need for the enrolment of the uses of the property. It is only natural, therefore, to suppose that, through such a loop-hole as this, evasions of the necessity to specify the uses of the property are perpetually taking place. I am not, Sir, speaking on merely speculative grounds as to the difficulties which these ineffective non-enrolments produce among various classes of the community. One of the difficulties which have come to my knowledge concerns the tenant of a farm. He could not ascertain who the owners —that is, the trustees—really were. He had always paid his rent to an agent, but when he sought to discover the real owners, the trustee, or trustees, he found that he had no means whatever of doing so. Sir, the whole purport of this statute of the 23 & 24 Vict. c. 134, is to provide facilities for enrolment, and that a correct description of the property and the uses, with the names of the trustees who really hold it, shall be entered in the Rolls Court — that is, the Court of Chancery. Well, what happened? This happened. This Act, I am sorry to say, is so defective — and the ingenuity of some lawyer, I suppose, has discovered its defects—that it does not provide for the registration of the names of any but the first trustees. These may resign the very next week after they are appointed, appointing new trustees, and the new trustees need not be registered. The original trustees may all resign but one, and he may be a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic. And what chance of recovery would there be in an action on behalf of the unhappy tenant of some farm or an heir-at-law against a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic, who is sworn to poverty? Why, none at all. I would not have intruded upon the House had I not the support of the opinion of persons most competent to give information upon the subject; and, even at the risk of wearying the House, perhaps I may be allowed to read an extract from a letter which was intended for my instruction, and which is written by an eminent lawyer, now practising in London. I wish I had time to obtain his leave to give his name; but as I have not the House will forgive me if I read his letter to the House without mentioning the name of the writer. He writes in these terms—

"The law of England leans very strongly against dispositions by which land is tied up so as to be rendered inalienable. Hence the rule against perpetuities, which prohibits the settlement of real estates for any greater period than a life, or lives in being, and twenty-one years afterwards. Thus, a gift to A for life, and after his death to his unborn son for life, and after the death of such son to his eldest son—the latter limitation is void. The Legislature has, at all periods since the Reformation, set its face against alienations in mortmain, and whenever a corporate body has been authorized to purchase or take land the quantity has been restricted. Thus, to pass over numerous other instances—By the 4 & 5 Vict. c. 38, being ' An Act for further Facilitating the Acquisition of Sites for Schools,' no more than one acre could be acquired for that purpose, though this was afterwards extended by the 14 & 15 Vict. c. 24, and the 15 & 16 Vict. c. 50, by the powers of which a gift might be made of one acre to each ecclesiastical district of one parish, and by the latter of which the quantity was enlarged from one to two acres. By the Literary and Scientific Act, 1854 (17 & 18 Vict. c. 112) one acre of land only can be acquired by gift or purchase for sites. And by the Companies' Act 1862 (25 & 26 Vict. c. 89), no company formed for the purpose of promoting art, science, religion, charity, or any other like object, not involving the acquisition of gain, is allowed to hold more than two acres of land without the sanction of the Board of Trade. The Roman Catholic Charities Act, 1860, loses sight of these principles of our law and legislation, and without inquiry, has made valid large and unascertained dispositions of land in mortmain, much of which was vested in unknown persons upon secret trusts created by parole, and has even given effect to dispositions of land actually void in law (being given for superstitious uses), by declaring that such dispositions shall be held upon such of the trusts of the charity as are valid in law. The quantity of land now held in mortmain by the Roman Catholic Church can only be known by a searching inquiry into the number of deeds enrolled under the Act of 1860, which there is every reason to believe, from the enrolments which have taken place, and particularly during the first year after the passing of the Act, is of considerable amount. It is true that enrolment is necessary to give validity to deeds of trust; but this affords no security against the acquisition of land by Roman Catholic institutions, through the medium of trustees, for the benefit of monasteries, convents, &c, the deeds relating to which are never registered, the trusts upon which they are held being secret. The trustees, it is true, may die, but upon the death of each of these another person is chosen in his place, so that ultimately the property is dealt with and governed by persons who have not, and care not to have, the legal estate vested in them.'"

Then comes the point to which I have also adverted—

"They can lease and let, as owners, and there is no one to dispute their title; but even if upon the death of the trustees, or any of them, a conveyance were made to any new and surviving trustees, or to the new trustees only, as the case might be, no enrolment of any such deed is necessary, as has been decided in the case of ' Ashton v. Jones,' 28 Beaver's Reports, 460, nor would any lease to be granted by the trustees for the time being require enrolment."

It is singular that such was the laxity of the law far back in mediaeval times, and that it should have occurred again in our days.

"'—v. Glyn,' 12 Simon's Rep., 84 (a case in equity), and ' Walker v. Richardson,' 2 Meeson and Wilsby, 882 (a case at law). The fiscal aspect of the subject is of no little importance as regards the welfare of the country. Lands acquired in mortmain, whether under deeds enrolled or by secret means, are taken out of the market for ever; they cease to be the subject of conveyance, mortgage, settlement, and testamentary disposition, and thus the revenues of the country are and will be continually lessened. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that after the first payment of £10 per cent under the Succession Duty Act, in the case of gifts to charitable uses, there will be no further duty payable; so that, in respect of the several duties before referred to, the land may be said to be abstracted from the country."

Now, Sir, I can vouch for that being the opinion of about as competent a lawyer as could be consulted on the subject; and I am prepared to show, from circumstances that are daily occurring, that the law of mortmain, which is held in force against all other denominations, and against scientific and other societies, is almost totally evaded through the defects in the provisions of this Statute, defects which have been remedied in the Bequests Act applying to Ireland, under which Roman Catholic charity property is held in that part of the United Kingdom; and in this statute defects somewhat similar to those I am describing have been provided against by a subsequent enactment for the improvement of that statute. One object, then, which I have in view, by moving for this Return is to show that we have this Act of 1860 nominally applicable to the whole of the Roman Catholic charity property in this country; but that the provisions of that Act are so defective that there is not sufficient enrolment to enable a tenant who has held a farm on lease, when he comes to the end of the term, and has a claim against the owner to discover an owner, a trustee, against and from whom he would have a fair chance of recovering—the fact being that he has only known the agent. That is a case in point; and, with the permission of the House, I will now proceed to show that there are very large masses of property annually devoted to these purposes. When I had the honour of addressing the House on the 26th of February last, I called to the recollection of hon. Members the case of Mr. Hutchinson, who died at the Oratory at Brompton, and at whose death a sum of £40,000 passed to Father Faber, the head of that establishment. That was proved before the courts of law, and it was held that Father Faber was personally as an individual entitled to the money; but it was mistakenly held that he did not take the benefaction or bequest on the part of the community. It is a very singular circumstance that the Oratorians declared that they did not hold their property in common; and that declaration has been accepted by the courts in England. A similar declaration was also tendered to the Italian courts, and at first accepted by those courts; but the Italian courts have finally decided that the plea of non-community of property is invalid in the case of this very Order, on account of the discipline and arrangements of the Order, although no actual vow of community is exacted from the members of the Order; but that such is the discipline that their property is practically held in common. In the sense, then, of the decision of the Italian courts, therefore, £40,000 went in that case to the Order of the Oratorians. I also recited to the House the case of Miss Thompson, who, after she had become a nun, left property to two learned gentlemen, who are well known in our courts, for Roman Catholic uses. In that case the learned Master of the Rolls decided that the bequest was made under duresse and was, therefore, invalid, and so £40,000 escaped from being devoted to Roman Catholic uses on account of the discovery being made that duresse had been exercised on the testatrix. I have also here the particulars of a case which has recently occurred, and for the accuracy of which. I can vouch. This letter has been addressed to me. I know the writer of it well, and I can vouch for his accuracy. He says—

"Allow me to give you one single case which has come within my own personal knowledge. A friend of mine one day lately said to an old man who had become a pervert—'Surely you are to leave your property to some national object. I know you have no near relatives, and I know your peculiar religious views; but surely you might find some national object which your wealth would advance—our country needs it. For example, the endowment of some chair in our University.' "(He was a Scotchman.) "'No, no!' was the answer, ' I find that my property at one time belonged to the Church of Rome; my priest tells me it is only right I should be an honest man and return all the property to the Church; hence, after my death, it shall go to the Church.' I was curious to know how the property had been disposed of. The old gentleman died, and I am told the property was sold on behalf of the Church of Rome, and was purchased for £200,000. This is in poor Scotland. What, therefore, must be the amount of property fast accumulating in wealthy England? "

As I can vouch for the accuracy of this statement, I think it would be needless to read long calculations—as I did in my speech of the 26th of February—in order to show, from the vast increase which has taken place in Roman Catholic institutions, particularly convents and monasteries, that large masses of property have been accumulated, and are accumulating for their support. Lest, however, it should be said that I have slurred over this part of my case, I will adduce the authority of the late Cardinal Wiseman, and no one will dispute the account which he gave at Malines as probably containing something like the truth with respect to the increase of these Roman Catholic institutions. The Cardinal said—

"Allow me now to present to you, by means of statistics, a rapid view of the effect produced by these different measures. The Census gives the population in England — for the year 1831, 13,896,797; for 1841, 15,914,178; for 1851, 17,927,609; for 1861, 20,906,224; an increase of about 2,000,000 in each decennial period. From 1831 to 1841, the population, therefore, increased 14 per cent. In the same period the number of priests increased about 25 per cent, or nearly double. During the following ten years the population increased 13 per cent, the number of priests 45 percent. Lastly, from 1851 to 1861, while the population increased 12 per cent, the number of priests increased about 37 per cent. Here, again, are the precise statistics which will allow you to judge of the continued increase of the Roman Catholic Church in England. In 1830 we numbered but 434 priests for the whole of England. At present we have 1,242, that is to say, three times as many. The number of our churches, which was 410, has now increased to 872; from 16 convents which we possessed in 1830 in the United Kingdom, we have now, in 1863, 162. Lastly, in 1830, we had not a single religious house of men, in 1850 there were 11, and to day their number is 55."

Such is the account which was given by Cardinal Wiseman in 1864, and he, I suppose, must be held an unimpeachable authority; but I have some other statistics here, which are taken from Roman Catholic sources, the accuracy of which I have no reason to doubt. These represent that—

"The increase of Roman Catholic institutions has recently been very great. In 1829 there were no monasteries nor convents publicly announced, and there were but 447 priests, and 449 chapels and stations. In 1841 there were I monastery, 16 convents, and 9 colleges. In 1851 there were 17 monasteries and 53 convents. In the present year there are in England and Wales, 1,122 churches, chapels, and stations, 18 convents, and 67 communities of men, altogether illegal, with inmates probably amounting to 3,000 males and 13,000 females. In connection with such institutions, real or personal property to a very large amount is, no doubt, fast accumulating, as well as for masses for the dead and other superstitious uses of the Romish religion. If each inmate of a convent bring a dowry of, say, £250, this would amount above to upwards of £3,000,000."

I cannot give the exact amount of this property; but this we know, that it is accumulating very rapidly; that it is, moreover, accumulating in mortmain; and under circumstances as regards the law of mortmain, different from the circumstances which are allowed by the law with respect to the religious or charitable property of any other community. The history of this country, as well as of others, tells us of the dangers which arise to the national welfare from allowing this property to increase to such an extent as this without restriction of any kind—such restrictions as are in force with respect to the property of every other denomination against its increase in mortmain—that, as this description of property is not subject to the same laws as similar property, affords, at least, an argument that exceptional facilities ought not to be afforded to one particular communion such as are granted to no others. Because the history of this country proves—the history of almost every country in Europe proves, that it is the policy of the Church of Borne to acquire an amount of property altogether inconsistent with the welfare of the States in which it obtains influence. I can assure the House that the opinion I have read to it is one among many which I could produce if necessary in order to show that the operation of the Act of 1860, instead of tending to ensure due enrolment and publicity—instead of giving the same securities to those who may deem themselves interested in or entitled to property left for religious uses, whether as heirs, tenants, or otherwise, for the discovery of the real owner, as are afforded by the statutes which are in force in Ireland. Under the Bequests Act and the Act amending the Bequests Act, the enrolment is complete and effective; but under the statute of 1860 it is so imperfect that, to my certain knowledge, without great expense, no one can obtain the in- formation which is often necessary for the regulation of property. I almost fear that I shall be told by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that the objection to the Return for which I shall move is that the register of the Rolls Court is in such a state that it would take years to separate the property held under this Act of 1860—an Act distinct and separate, made to differ from the general law at the desire and by the will of the representatives of the Roman Catholics in this House, who insisted upon this separate and exceptional legislation. All that I want to obtain by means of this Motion, is, that the same information as regards the three last years should be afforded as to the accumulation, disposition, and ownership of this Roman Catholic Trust property in England as is furnished in Ireland through the medium of the Commissioners appointed under the Bequests Act. I can assure the House that I am not the author or originator of this request. I have the highest legal authority for assuring the House that this information would be most valuable for the purpose of securing many families and many persons from the effects of maladministration and of uncertainty of ownership with regard to this property. It was, in fact, admitted when the Act passed, that there was a necessity for legislation, which arose from want of adequate information as to the actual ownership by trustees. It was in consequence of this belief that the Legislature passed the statute of 1860. The information for which I now apply will, if produced, test my accuracy and that of my informants when I declare my belief that the object of that measure —the due enrolment of trustees and easy discovery of the property held in trust— has been defeated, and in a great degree through the defects in the statute itself, some of which I well remember hearing Sir Charles Selwyn from that Bench in 1860 describe by anticipation and strongly deprecate whilst the Bill was being debated in this House. I beg, therefore, Sir, to propose the Motion which is now in your hands, with the insertion in the second line, after the word "enrolled," of the words "during the last three years."

seconded the Motion.

said, the hon. Gentleman had correctly supposed that he intended to oppose the Motion, on the ground that the time which it would take to prepare the Return for which he asked was incommensurate with the value of the Return. He held in Ms hands a letter from the Secretary to the Master of the Rolls, who informed him that the Return could not be made out without great inconvenience and delay to the Public Business, and that it would occupy the clerks in the Public Record Office two years to get it ready, or, as the Motion was now limited to three years, he might perhaps put it at eight months, or one-third of that period. But, apart from that, he objected altogether to the Motion, because there was, in his opinion, no sufficient ground for making the bequests of Roman Catholics the subjects of special inquiry. The law of England, however different it might be from the law in Ireland, was the same with respect to devises in mortmain made by Protestants and Roman Catholics. His hon. Friend had mixed up with the question a great many others in a most invidious manner. He had cited the cases of bequests to which the Return for which he moved did not at all apply—bequests of money, such, for instance, as that of Mr. Hutchinson, of which no enrolment was required by law. The hon. Gentleman must be well aware that all devises made secretly were not-enrolled at all, and that the inquiry would throw no light on such bequests, which might be set aside at any time. The House had here to deal with deeds enrolled under the sanction of the Act of Parliament. For upwards of three centuries the Roman Catholics had been exposed to disadvantages far greater than those which attended the operations of any other religious sect. Their funds were not protected by the law, and every obstacle was placed in the way of their promoting and maintaining their religion. Of late years, however, they had been put on a footing of equality with other sects, and the complaint of his hon. Friend was that they had availed themselves of the liberty which had been accorded to them. Being a good Protestant himself, and believing that his religion was the best, he (Mr. Bruce), of course, wished that all persons were of his way of thinking; but people would hold their own theological opinions, and every good citizen must wish that every religion should experience just and equal treatment, and develop itself in its own natural course. The Roman Catholics had, it was true, made great efforts of late years. No part of the population was formerly so neglected as the Roman Catholics. While in Ireland crime was not more prevalent, but rather less so than in England, the proportion of crime committed by the Irish in this country was four or five times as great as that committed by the English population. This was owing to the circumstance of the Irish population being more exposed to temptation and less carefully looked after than the English were. The efforts of the Roman Catholic gentry and priesthood had for many years past, and especially of late years, been directed to the removal of this evil, and he had no doubt that considerable endowments had been made by them, some legally and some perhaps illegally, for the purpose of improving the religious and moral condition of their poor Roman Catholic brethren. Those efforts, so far as they were legal, all liberal-minded men ought to applaud, and what ground had the hon. Gentleman for endeavouring to cast this slur on the Roman Catholics? His hon. Friend had shown, or, at least, attempted to show, that our legislation in respect of enrolments of deeds in England was less perfect than that in regard to Ireland. Possibly this might be the case; but, if so, the way to remedy the evil was to introduce a Bill to assimilate the English law on the subject with that of Ireland. He hoped, however, that the House would never consent to put the Roman Catholic and Protestant endowments on a different footing. Good reasons might perhaps be adduced in favour of assimilating the laws of the two countries; but, in. the meantime, he objected to the Motion of his hon. Friend, on account, not only of the vast amount of unnecessary labour which it would entail, but also, and chiefly, on account of the injustice it would inflict on our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen.

said, that the right hon. Gentleman had said, with considerable truth, that there was no reason for dealing specially with any particular class of persons, but he would ask whether, by refusing his assent to this Motion, the right hon. Gentleman was not dealing specially with one particular class of persons? Almost weekly there was now placed in the hands of hon. Members a thick book which dealt with all the charities in England county by county. This was done in pursuance of a recent statute, which conferred the power of dealing with those charities. He thought it was therefore only a fair question to ask why the charities of one particular class of persons were to be exempted from the scrutiny required by the Act? The right hon. Gentleman had stated no reason for that exemption. He did not know what was going to be done with these charities. Large powers had been taken under the Act of this Session, and, in his opinion, we ought to have the means of seeing at a glance an account of all the charities in the kingdom, whether they belonged to the Established Church or other denominations. To this proposition, it appeared to him, the right hon. Gentleman had not addressed himself. Speaking from information given by the Master of the Rolls, the right hon. Gentleman said there were difficulties in the way of making out the Return asked for by his hon. Friend. But, admitting this, it was, in his opinion, the duty of the Government to overcome these difficulties. It was neither fair nor just that the charities connected with one particular form of religion should be exempted from the scrutiny to which all other charities were submitted. If the enrolment under the Act of 1860 were so defective that the required Return could not be made, the Government ought to have the matter looked into and set right.

said, the right hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House had argued the question on very different grounds from the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate). The hon. Member had urged that this Return was necessary, because certain tenants did not know who their landlords were. Now, it appeared to him that the enrolment of these deeds under which the property was conveyed to trustees afforded to the world at large, and to the tenantry in particular, rather more information than was ordinarily imparted when property was privately conveyed from one party to another by deeds which were not registered. The Return asked for by the hon. Member would not give the tenants one particle more of information than they might obtain by looking at the enrolments. It might be right that a Return should be made of all Roman Catholic charities, with their amount and application, but this Return would give no such information, although it would involve an immense deal of trouble in its preparation.

said, he hoped the speech of the hon. Member who had just resumed his seat might be taken as an admission that the charities of the Roman Catholics ought not to be made the subject of exceptional legislation, but ought to be subjected to the same publicity and inquiry as those of other denominations. It could not be said that the Roman Catholics laboured under any disabilities now, as they were in all respects on the same footing as other denominations, and all their endowments, gifts, and donations were under the same laws. He had been surprised to hear the Secretary of State for the Home Department say that large endowments had been made by the Roman Catholics for the maintenance and propagation of their religion, and that, though some were legal and some illegal, still all liberal-minded men should be disposed to protect them.

explained that he had made that statement on the authority of the hon. Gentleman who brought forward the Motion. He knew nothing of it himself. His statement had entire reference to the present Motion, which dealt with nothing except deeds regularly and legally enrolled. He had charged the hon. Gentleman with mixing up with this subject other matters which had no reference to it.

said, he thought the grounds alleged by the Secretary of State for the Home Department for declining to accede to that Motion were calculated to induce the House to vote for it. That right hon. Gentleman refused them information on a very important point, although, as far as he had observed, it was a most unusual thing for the Government to refuse the House and the country the means of acquiring information through a Return on any matter which was of national importance. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) had shown very conclusively that it was very desirable that the Return now in question should be produced. And what were the Home Secretary's reasons for withholding it? The right hon. Gentleman had accused the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, in asking for that statistical information, of casting a slur on the Roman Catholics. If to move for Returns was held to be casting a slur on the body of persons to whom those Returns referred, there would be an end to all inquiry on public matters. Then the right hon. Gentleman said the Irish Roman Catholics who came to this country committed four times as much crime as the same number of persons not belonging to that nationality; but that was a most extraordinary argument for opposing the Motion. The Home Secretary also stated that there was great need for improving the lower order of Roman Catholics in this country, and that gentlemen holding that religious belief had very naturally and commendably devoted a portion of their property to that purpose. No Protestant denied their right to do so, nor by asking for information on that subject did any man throw any imputation on the members of that communion. The right hon. Gentleman further urged that the Return could not be given because the Secretary to the Rolls Office told him it would take a long time to give it. Were they never, then, to get any information when its production would cause trouble to officials? In reading the Guide to the Civil Service he was astonished to find how little time the members of that service devoted to the public advantage. He did not know whether it was so in the Rolls Office, but those gentlemen, it seemed, went to work about ten o'clock and left at four, and between those hours they generally spent an hour at lunch, and another hour in reading The Times. Again, if the right hon. Gentleman was correct in saying that it would require two years to make out this Return, what an enormous amount of property of that description there must be. The documents relating to that property ought to be so arranged in the Rolls Office that information respecting it could be readily furnished whenever it was called for. If the hon. Member for North Warwickshire divided the House, he would certainly go into the same Lobby with him.

said, he could not quite agree with his hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) as to the value of the Mortmain Act. But that was not the question they had then to consider. The speeches which had been delivered against the Motion presented to his mind no good reason why it should not be adopted. The hon. Member for King's County (Mr. Sherlock) objected to the Motion because it did not go far enough, and would not give them all the information that was desired; but there was no reason why, after having got that Return, they should not move for further details in reference to the same subject. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department told them that within the last few years the Roman Catholic gentry of this country had devoted much of their time and wealth to the promotion of the moral and religious welfare of the poorer members of their Church. Now, that was an excellent and admirable work, and those gentlemen deserved the greatest credit for having engaged in it. But then the right hon. Gentleman said that to institute an inquiry into what had thus been done would be casting a slur upon those labours. That was one of the most extraordinary arguments he (Lord John Manners) had ever heard. He could easily understood that those gentlemen should be unwilling to publish their good deeds, but he was at a loss to imagine how they could be injured or insulted if a public investiga- tion were to be instituted into the subject. He had to state, therefore, that unless he should hear some better arguments against the Motion than those advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, he should feel bound to vote in its favour.

said, the House ought not to assume, from the fact that the making out of that Return would involve great labour, that therefore there was a very large amount of property dedicated to Roman Catholic charities. The difficulty in making out the Return arose from the circumstance that these enrolments were enrolments made indiscriminately in regard to all charities, Protestant as well as Roman Catholic, and not merely in regard to all kinds of charities, but also all enrolled patents and enrolled deeds. Therefore, when a Return as to Roman Catholic charities was asked for, of course there was the difficulty to be encountered of selecting the information required from the vast mass of other enrolments which had nothing to do with Roman Catholic charities, or even with any charities whatever. Moreover, what the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) wanted to arrive at would not be obtained by any Return of that description, because the hon. Member himself alleged—and no doubt with truth—that there was a large amount of property in this country given to persons under secret trusts for Roman Catholic purposes. There was in this country no record or enrolment of those secret trusts which would afford the hon. Member the information he required. If, therefore, the Government were to grant the Return as moved for, the hon. Member would find it comparatively useless.

said, it occurred to him that a good deal of explanation was still needed. If Parliament wished to have a Return of all the charities of England and Wales he could not, for the life of him, see why those of one particular sect should be exempted. A short time ago a Bill had been before the House for improving endowed schools, and it was proposed that certain charities should be applied to the purposes of the Bill, many persons believing that those charities were not only useless but pernicious. If that were the fact it was a good reason for ascertaining the amount and particular purposes of those charities, and that had been ascertained; but the Return did not include the charities of a particular body of Christians. If a Return was wanted it should be a Return of the charities belonging to all Her Majesty's subjects, not the charities of Protestants or Catholics, Jews or Gentiles. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) now proposed a mode of supplementing the Return, and all that was said against the Motion was that what he wanted would be difficult to get. But that could be said of many other Returns. There were many Returns ordered by the House which were not produced for one or two years, because information was to be obtained, perhaps, from India, the colonies, or other distant places. Suppose this Return were to take two years, that would be no great matter, because there was no measure of legislation waiting for it. It was merely a piece of statistical information required to show the aggregate amount of all the charities of this country. And although the present Motion might not bring out the whole, some other hon. Member might discover a mode of getting at another part of the remainder. He had not a particle of feeling against his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects in this matter, but he thought it desirable that the State should have information of all the charities in the kingdom. Suppose the Prussian Government were to call for a similar Return, would it be thought a good answer from one province that the people there were nearly all Jews, or from another, that they were nearly all Catholics, and so on? The Government would say—"We don't want to know anything about your religion; what we want to know is about your charities." In his opinion the desire of the hon. Gentleman was a reasonable one.

said, he rose to draw the attention of the House to Memorials presented from several Chambers of Commerce, recommending the construction of a Railway from Rangoon through British Burmah to Western China. The question might not have attracted a very large amount of public attention, but the interests involved were of vast importance. The object in view was the construction of a cheap route, chiefly through our own territory, from Rangoon, the commercial capital of British Burmah, to the western provinces of China, and thus bringing our manufactures within comparatively easy reach of the 300,000,000 or 400,000,000 of people inhabiting the Chinese Empire. It was superfluous to speak of the civilization, industry, and fertility of China. Suffice it to say that the actual exports and imports of the five treaty ports of China in 1868 was £38,564,880, of which six-sevenths came from England and India and other English possessions; but the whole of this commerce was with the south and eastern seaboard of China; very little went into the interior, and scarcely any part of it reached the remote western provinces, which vied with the eastern in fertility and manufacturing importance. It was true the western provinces of China were mountainous, but they were rich in minerals, besides being extremely fertile, and inhabited by an industrious population. Lord Elgin estimated the population of the six western provinces at something under 100,000,000, and nothing but their geographical position prevented them being our customers to an unlimited amount. In exchange they had to offer us tea, silk, wool, dye wares, and drugs, cereals of all kinds, cattle, and precious metals, all of the utmost value to us either as raw material or manufactures. But the whole country was practically cut off from England from want of easy communication, although it was only some 500 or 600 miles from Rangoon— the distance from London to Inverness, and 300 from the frontier of British Burmah. British territory, indeed, was only 250 miles from Western China, and it was across this narrow strip of land that the Government was asked to facilitate the construction of a railway, so as to bring the two points within a few hours of each other; whilst the sea voyage from Rangoon to Shanghai, round the Malayan peninsula, was 3,000 miles, and could not be traversed by the fastest steamer in. less than from two to three weeks. It would be his duty to prove, by good authorities, first that this object was desirable, and se- cond, that it was practicable. Sir Stamford Raffles, who had gained large experience on this subject as Governor of Singapore, said—

"It is idle to talk of the cheapness and extent of our manufactures unless we carry them into fair competition. There is no reason why all China should not he in a great measure clothed from England, the cold parts as well as the warm."

Colonel M'Leod, who visited Western China and the Burman Shan States, in 1837, with Dr. Richardson, under orders of Governor General of India, said—

"Many Chinese merchants with caravans continuously pass to and fro through Esmok, trading between China and the Laos country, and the Siamese and Burman Shan States."

The Chinese authorities on the frontier had offered to Colonel M'Leod every facility and encouragement for trade; and the chiefs of the Shan States expressed an ardent desire to cultivate trade and friendly relations with England. Captain Sherard Osborne, another high authority, when writing, in 1860, pointed out the dangers of navigating the Chinese seas, especially in time of war, and strongly recommended opening the land route to Western China. Now that the French had the coast of Cochin China, the injury to our commerce in those seas in times of war would be most disastrous, but with the land route we should have nothing to fear. But the route was shown to be as practicable as desirable. Captain Williams, Engineer and Inspector of Public Works in Burmah, and resident there during ten years, reported, in 1865, as follows:—

"Of the three routes the direct land route from Rangoon to Kiang Hung is the one which, if feasible, must, owing to its directness, be the best; and there is no doubt, from the same cause, it would be the cheapest to construct."

The Report of Captain Williams, who was afterwards appointed to survey this route, was conclusive in its favour. He said that upwards of 250 miles, a full moiety of the entire line, would be within British territory, and the remaining portion would pass through country occupied by people who were, with their chiefs, well affected towards the British Government, though tributary to the King of Burmah. Captain Watson, another English officer, from personal examination, recommended the same line. From some inexplicable cause, the Indian Government set its face against even a survey of this route. The memorials presented to the Government simply asked for a survey of the country. They did not ask for the construction of a railway, or that any vast expenditure should be incurred, but the memorialists would have been satisfied with a single tramway. At length a man of force of character came to be Secretary of State for India, and the good bold sense of Lord Salisbury decided that a case had been made out for a survey, ordered one, and persisted in his order, notwithstanding the opposition of the Indian Government. Accordingly, in 1867, Captains Williams and Luard made a survey of 245 miles of the route up to the British frontier. Of this they found that 200 miles were good country and 45 miles would be difficult, though not to compare in difficulty with other Indian routes. In the whole 245 miles it was probable that not more than one tunnel would be required. Beyond this there remained only 250 miles to be surveyed, but the Indian Government stopped the survey. The Report of Captains Williams and Luard encouraged the belief that a railway could be made at a small cost compared with the enormous magnitude of the object to be attained, and a cost which the revenue of British Burmah would enable it easily to bear. The work would be beneficial, not only to the manufacturers and merchants of England, but to the merchants of Rangoon and the whole native population. Two towns alone, Rangoon and Moulmein contained populations, the one exceeding and the other approaching 100,000, and each had a splendid commerce. The population of British Burmah had nearly doubled within the last ten years, its revenue had doubled, and its imports and exports had increased from £5,000,000 to £10,000,000. In July, 1868, Colonel, now General, Fytche, Chief Commissioner of British Burmah, who was formerly opposed to the making of the proposed railway, but had since changed his views, wrote a despatch in which he recommended that the survey should be resumed on commercial, political, and scientific grounds, and in deference to the Chambers of Commerce. He further recommended the adoption of the line to Kiang Hung as the shortest and best line of communication with Western China. In competition with this was the Bhamo route, the one on which Captain Sladen had been directed to report. One objection to it was that it was the longer route. While the length of the lower route was only 500 miles, the Bhamo route included a distance of nearly 1,100 miles up the valley of the Irrawaddy, and then a journey across a mountainous country before China was reached. He believed the engineering difficulties of the Bhamo route would be found much greater than those of the lower route, and the political difficulties were immensely greater, obliging Captain Williams to leave Captain Sladen's party and to return. While the lower route was through British territory, the Bhamo route was through Burmah and Chinese territory; and, as far as he could judge, the advantages of the lower route were immense. At length the India Office again changed its policy for the better, and. on the 29th April, this year, the Duke of Argyll, in a despatch to the Governor General of India, said—

"Her Majesty's Government are desirous of promoting any measure which may have the ultimate effect of facilitating intercourse between India and China, with a view to the interchange of mercantile commodities and the development of the resources of the two countries The settlement of the present question is regarded with considerable interest by large and important mercantile communities in this country, and I should be glad, therefore, if the proposal now before me, which has the support of Colonel Fytche, Chief Commissioner of British Burmah, could be carried into effect; provided that the necessary operations of the survey can be undertaken without entailing upon your Government any embarrassment or inconvenience in the shape of political complications, and if they should not involve any undue expenditure of the public money."

On behalf of the Chambers of Commerce he would say it was their wish that these conditions should be observed. They did not wish for any extravagant expenditure of public money, nor for foreign annexation, of which there were too many advocates. They wished for peace and friendly commerce; they detested war and annexation, and they recommended the adoption of prudent measures, such as the sending of an embassy to the Court of Burmah. The people of this country had so much need of fresh markets that they had a right to claim that these routes should be surveyed. They were not opposed to the Bhamo route, or any other; but they pressed for a survey of the cheapest and best route. He had simply to impress, in conclusion, upon the Government the importance of not allowing a matter of such great consequence to be any longer delayed. Since this project had first been proposed, we had seen two lines of railway thrown across the Alps,—two lines of submarine telegraph sunk across the bed of the Atlantic,—a railway constructed across the breadth of North America, ascending and descending the Booty Mountains,—£70,000,000 spent on the railways of India,—the Isthmus of Suez pierced by a ship canal,—and the greatest geographical problem of history solved by the discovery of the sources of the Nile; and yet, whilst these wonderful enterprizes had been effected by ourselves and other nations, our Indian Government refused even to survey a short route on our own frontier, although its accomplishment would be the means of bringing us into communication with a population who would be customers to an incredible extent for the produce of the industry of England. The hon. Gentleman concluded by asking the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the Survey authorized by the Secretary of State for India, and commenced in 1867, is ordered to be completed, or what is being done for the construction of a Railway or Telegraph through British Burmah to the Western Provinces of China?

said, he wished strongly to urge on the Government the expediency of constructing the proposed route, which would in all not exceed in length 500 miles, and would in the main lie through our own territory. As things at present stood, we had no other inlets for our commerce with China except the three seaports included in our treaties, and in order to penetrate into the interior of the country we had to travel over thousands of miles through districts presenting considerable difficulties. There was a vast commercial population in the western and southwestern provinces of China, which now carried on a large trade with Burmah, and that was the field which he desired to see opened up to English commerce. And what, he would ask, were the objections to the opening of the route? During the Government of Lord Derby Lord Cranborne stated in a letter, which he wrote on the subject, that he considered the case to have been made out for making a survey on behalf of the commerce of this country. On the 8th of December, 1866, however, the Governor General of India wrote a letter, in which he deprecated the expenditure which even a preliminary investigation would involve, stating that he believed it would lead to no satisfactory result. Yielding to the remonstrances of the Governor General of India, the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the India Office (Sir Stafford Northcote) consented to have the survey stopped. The Governor General of India had objected to it on the ground of the financial position of India, and because, in his opinion, it had no object but that of showing what the features of the country were. Now, he ventured to think that was a very important object. All the Chambers of Commerce asked was, that the Government should use the means in its power to afford them information on which they might act hereafter. For some reason or other another survey had been commenced of a line which, instead of being 500 miles, would be 1,250 miles in length, and which for a very great distance would run through. the territory of the Sovereign of Burmah. The report of this route, as far as it had been surveyed, was very unfavourable. There was a third route in contemplation, which would describe two sides of a triangle, of which the base was part of the route of 500 miles which the British merchants advocated. This third line also ran through the Burman Empire. He could understand either of the longer routes—the one forming a semicircle and the other two sides of a triangle—if intended for strategic purposes, or with a view to a policy of annexation; but if a line was wanted for commercial purposes, he could not see why either one or the other of them should be countenanced by the Government. He hoped the Government would do what was asked by the Chambers of Commerce on a question so important to the commercial interests of this country.

said, he felt that he stood before the House in this matter rather in the capacity of a culprit, because from the speeches just delivered it was obvious that the two hon. Members charged him with having taken a retrograde step, when he filled the Office of Secretary for India, in stopping the survey directed by his noble Friend the Marquess of Salisbury. He did not think any apology was needed by hon. Members representing great mercantile constituencies for having brought the subject forward. No doubt, for the commerce of this country, the matter was one of considerable importance; and no one would be better pleased than he to see a good inland communication established between British India and China. He was anxious to say a few words in justification of the course he had adopted. In the first place, he would wish to put this before the House—that, in the consideration of this question, they should bear in mind it was one which was not only interesting to the commercial world, but was also of great interest for our Indian Empire. The Chambers of Commerce had been for a long time asking the Indian Government to undertake a survey through a country which did not belong to us, with a view to the construction of a railway. His hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (Mr. Baines) now spoke of a tramway, but he believed that a railway was what the Chambers of Commerce had been asking for. The survey commenced was one of a line from Rangoon through British Burmah and the Shan States to the western frontier of China. Was it a prudent thing to have undertaken that survey? He put aside the small matter whether the finances of India could afford the survey. He thought Lord Salisbury rightly put aside that matter by saying that the revenue of British Burmah could bear the expenditure. But were hon. Members to put this before them as if the survey were one in Yorkshire, or as if it was one through any thoroughly civilized country. The Shan States had been spoken of as if there was no difficulty in carrying a railway through them; but the Shan States, though nominally under the government of the King of Burmah, were in a continual state of rebellion against that Sovereign. No doubt the King of Burmah would have been glad to promote any enterprize which might have brought him British support in his quarrel with the Shan States; and, on the other hand, the Shans would also have been very glad if any proceeding on the part of the British Government in making a railway would have given them a title to claim assistance in enabling them to hold their own against their legitimate suzerain, the King of Burmah. The Government of India thought it was not desirable that anything of the kind should occur, and it would certainly have been a strong measure on the part of the Secretary of State for India if he had attempted in that state of things to overrule the Government of India, and had compelled them, against their own judgment, to carry on a survey which might have produced such complications. At that time there was a very considerable amount of opinion in India in favour of annexing Burmah to the British Empire, and naturally the carrying on a survey would have been exactly the sort of step which would have given countenance to the idea that the Indian Government contemplated annexation; but nothing could have been more undesirable than that such an idea should be created. All that was asked was that a survey should be carried through the country for the purpose of seeing whether it was practicable to make a railway there; but what was the use of such a proceeding, unless the Indian Government saw their way to construct a railway? Supposing the survey had been made, and that the country was found practicable for a railway, the next request would naturally have been that Government assistance should be given for the construction of one. Was it possible for any company to be formed in this country for that purpose without some assistance or guarantee from the Government, and was it likely that the British House of Commons would have sanctioned a guarantee? He put out of the question the idea that anything like an Imperial guarantee or Imperial assistance would have been given for such a railway; and, therefore, the Indian Government must have been applied to. Now, the back of the Indian Government was a very broad one, and he had no doubt that great pressure would have been brought to bear upon that Government to induce them to afford the required aid, but was it possible to suppose that the Government of India would have been able to give a guarantee for the suggested railway, seeing the claims which existed for railways in India and the great expense which the finances of India had to bear to give effect to the most necessary lines within the Indian territory? Lord Cranborne, when he authorized the survey, observed that he was not prepared to commit the finances of India for any railway of the kind. Such being the state of circumstances when the matter came before the Indian Council and himself, he, though aware that he might subject himself to great obloquy on the part of the commercial interests of this country if he acted on the recommendation of the Governor General of India that the survey should be stopped, yet, looking at the matter as dispassionately as he could, and having every desire to promote railway communication as far as possible between India and China, thought it right to follow the advice of the Governor General, who was responsible for the peace and prosperity of India, and to stop the survey. Nothing would give him greater pleasure than to learn that the state of circumstances had altered, and that the Secretary for India was able to undertake this work; but he pressed on the attention of the Government that it was not their duty to listen, in the first instance, to the representations of commercial bodies in this country, but it behaved them to consider the political aspect of the question, and to keep the country from entangling itself in foreign complications which might lead to difficulties and to, perhaps, war. They ought to be particularly anxious to avoid anything which would give umbrage to the neighbouring Powers of India, and anything pointing to annexation. But supposing all difficulty got over with respect to the construction of the railway, and supposing the railway made, how was it, passing through disturbed districts, to be kept open? It would be necessary to have British soldiers stationed at particular points of the line or some other mode of protection. That would be quasi annexation of that part of the country through which the railway passed. Unless you could see your way to some protection of that line, he was afraid they would only be opening the door to difficulties of which it would be impossible to foresee the end. The hon. Member who last spoke made some remarks on the curious fact that immediately after the survey of the southern route was put a stop to another survey was commenced by a very different route. That measure was ordered by the Government of India on their own responsibility, without any communication with the Secretary of State. But it was a route of a very different character from the one of which they were speaking. No doubt it was a much more circuitous route; but there was no idea of making a railway or any communication at all, but merely of restoring an old caravan route that had fallen into disuse. It would have been easy to revive the use of that route, and one of its advantages was that there was a direct interest on the part of the King of Burmah to encourage that route. It was a matter rather for him than for us to consider how that communication could be restored, and no doubt it would have been an advantage to us to have it restored. But that was altogether different from what was pressed upon them before, of what was called Captain Sprye's route, which was to depend on the construction of a railway through a country entirely under the dominion of the King of Burmah. They had also heard of a third route, and he could tell of a fourth—a more northerly route, by way of the Bramahputra, and which would give a more direct communication between Calcutta and China than any other. He believed it was the interest of the British Government and of the Indian Government to encourage in every possible way the improvement of the land communications between India and China. All he would press on the House was to abstain from embarrassing the Government of India by any injunctions which it might be inconvenient for that Government to comply with. It was quite right that they should have all commercial considerations impressed on them. No doubt the Secretary of State paid great respect to all that was said in that House; but he earnestly hoped the House would be cautious in not pressing on the Government of India what might be seriously embarrassing to our relations. He hoped to hear from his hon. Friend that progress was being made; nobody would rejoice more than he should at the prospect of these communications being effected.

said, he would be very glad to explain to his hon. Friend (Mr. Baines) as briefly and clearly as he could how this matter stood, for he well knew that it excited in some of the Lancashire and Yorkshire towns an interest altogether disproportionate to its real importance, and he had no doubt that a little less reticence a few years ago would have prevented the growth of many wild hopes. The attention of the present Secretary of State in Council was first called to this matter by a despatch from the Governor General of India, enclosing a correspondence between the Chief Commissioner of British Burmah and the Government of India. The Chief Commissioner of British Burmah had conceived a project for carrying the telegraph from Rangoon to Kiang Hung, a Shan city close to the frontier of China, with the view to its being extended right across China to the eastern seaboard. He need not say that this proposal met with favour neither at the hands of the Government of India, nor at the hands of the Secretary of State in Council; but the correspondence which had been lately laid on the table of the House raised other questions, and more especially whether it would or would not be desirable to continue the survey which, wisely begun under the orders of Lord Salisbury, was wisely stopped, after a change of circumstances, by the order of his right hon. Friend opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote), at the urgent entreaty of Sir John Lawrence and his Council. The result of long and very careful consideration was a despatch to India, from which he would read an extract—

"Her Majesty's Government are desirous of promoting any measure which may have the ultimate effect of facilitating intercourse between India and China, with a view to the interchange of mercantile commodities and the development of the resources of the two countries, and they are anxious also to advance, by such explorations as are here suggested, the interests of geographical science, The settlement of the present question is regarded with considerable interest by large and important mercantile communities in this country, and I should be glad, therefore, if the proposal now before me, which has the support of Colonel Fytche, the Chief Commissioner of British Burmah, could be carried into effect, provided that the necessary operations of the survey can be undertaken without entailing upon your Government any embarrassment or inconvenience in the shape of political complications, and if they should not involve any undue expenditure of the public money, With respect to the latter point, I should wish to receive from you some estimate of the probable expense."

This question of communication between Rangoon and Kiang Hung divided itself into three parts—1. What is the character and what are the commercial capabilities of that part of our own Burmese territory through which the pro- jected railway or telegraph is to be made? 2. What is the character of the country between our own frontier and the frontier of China? And, 3. What is the character and condition of that part of China which would be reached by the projected route? Only two plans had been suggested for taking the railway across our own territory which he need notice. The first of these was the line surveyed up to the frontier by Messrs. Williams and Luard. Their official Report had been laid before Parliament, and might be summed up by saying that the line taken as a whole would be a difficult but not an extraordinarily difficult one. The first part would be very easy, the second less so, the third very arduous. The general character of the country as described to him by Captain Luard, who was now in England, was a good deal like Wales, but with the hills higher in many places. The local traffic of this portion of the line would be absolutely trifling. A little rice might come down to the coast, but that would be all. From the point where the survey of Williams and Luard stopped to the Takau Ferry, on the Salween, the country had not been regularly surveyed, but we knew a good deal about it. There would be difficulties of various kinds — great difficulties, but difficulties in no way insuperable, if a great object were to be attained. The other plan for getting a communication across our own territory which he would mention was to go from Rangoon northward to Tounghoo, and from there to reach the Takau Ferry. There were a good many advantages about this line, and even if it never got further than Tounghoo it would be useful for local purposes; but it was far too early to decide between the two lines. It would be long before either of them would be proposed by anyone willing to find the money; and in the meantime they need not be jealous of each other. He now came to the second part of the journey —to the question how we were to get across the Eastern Shan States from the Takau Ferry to Kiang Hung. About the first portion of this line extremely little was known; indeed, hardly anything at all. At Kiang Hung the direct route from the Takau Ferry would fall in with the route followed a generation ago by Captain M'Leod on his journey from Moulmein to Kiang Hung. That officer kept a good deal to the southward of the route last proposed until he reached Kiang Hung. His experiences—and, as far as he (Mr. Grant Duff) knew, he was the only European who had reached Kiang Hung from British Burmah— were not very encouraging. They might be read at length in his diary which was about to be laid upon the table of the House; but he might perhaps be allowed to give a summary of them from his own lips, for he had been good enough to allow him to vouch, on the authority of his name, for the following statements made to him (Mr. Grant Duff) in conversation. First, then, the Shan States which he traversed were very thinly peopled. For days and days together he journeyed through a mere jungle without meeting a soul. The mountain ranges were numerous, high, and precipitous, and the only roads to be found were often the beds of dried-up torrents. The people were mere barbarians, anxious to trade, no doubt, in their own small way, but with very little to exchange, and the so-called caravans that came down from the frontiers of China were on a very small scale. General M'Leod had never countenanced the idea that a railway or telegraph could be made from Rangoon to Kiang Hung in our generation with the slightest advantage or profit, though of course, like all reasonable men, he was in favour of exploration, provided that exploration could be carried out without great expense, sacrifice of life, or political inconvenience. He (Mr. Grant Duff) did not himself believe that the expense need be great, and he did not believe that if the survey were to be carried out by our own officers there was much danger of any considerable sacrifice of life or of getting into difficulties either with the rulers of the petty Shan States themselves or with the King of Burmah. That, however, was a mere individual opinion formed after some study of the subject, which he offered for what it was worth. Well, but when we should have got to Kiang Hung and were looking across the Cambodia river to the Chinese post on the other side, we should be looking at a country about much of which we had just about as authentic information as we had about the country on the other side of the Styx. He could imagine that he saw some enthusiast for this scheme, on reading what he (Mr. Grant Duff) was now saying, rush to his shelves and indignantly opening a thick pamphlet by the prime mover in this project turn to the pages where information about the huge province of Yunan, as this part of China was called, had been industriously collected. Well, but what did it all amount to? That in this enormous region there was a certain amount of wealth and there were a certain number of valuable products. Who ever doubted it? But what did we know of the local distribution of that wealth and those products which could lead us to believe that they would find an outlet by Kiang Hung? Was not the natural outlet of that province the great valley of the Yangtze, or the Canton river? And why should its products come wandering over the high rough region which we knew lay to the north of Kiang Hung in order to seek an outlet towards the Bay of Bengal? The amount of recent information about the province of Yunan possessed by anyone in Western Europe, except the survivors of the French exploring expedition which lately ascended the Cambodia river, was small indeed. Of the information acquired by these gentlemen very little, mere fragments, he might say, had become publici juris, and he was afraid some time would pass before the work on which they were engaged would appear, for it was to be, he understood, on a very extensive scale. His belief about the Yunan of the present day, formed from such morsels of knowledge as he could obtain, was that it was a large, and in parts, prosperous province, but that even in the best times most of its south - western trade flowed down to Burmah by Bhamo and the Irrawaddy, not by Kiang Hung. That trade was respectable—say £500,000 a year—till in 1855 a great insurrection broke out against the Chinese authority among its Mahommedan population, since which time the through trade from Northern China was dead, and nothing survived but a local traffic of no importance. Further, he was assured by General M'Leod, who reached, as he had already mentioned, the Chinese border at Kiang Hung, that in that part of Yunan the population was extremely poor. No doubt it was a more civilized region altogether than the Shan States, but it was as far as possible from being a region which it was worth going through the Shan States to get at. If any member of any of the numerous Chambers of Commerce who had sent memorials to any of the Departments of Government about this matter could give one single scrap of first-hand information about South-western China or about any of the countries between British Burmah and South-western China, the Government would be most grateful for it; but if the Chambers of Commerce, into whose hands the Government was most anxious to play, made themselves mere speaking trumpets through which a projector shouted facts and views with which the Government was perfectly familiar, they could not be surprised if the Government merely acknowledged their letters, wondering that British merchants and manufacturers, with all the world before them, should have so little to do as to be able to find time for so dull an amusement or so vain a labour. He would be very sorry to be understood to discourage the idea that a profitable trade might one day be established with South-western China through our Indian dominions. He held the diametrically opposite opinion, and believed that the day would come when we should have first a small trade, then improved roads, and finally, for all he knew, even a railway from Rangoon to Kiang Hung, but that last only in the far future. He thought we should see a renewal and improvement of the trade down the Irrawaddy, which, as he had said, died out in 1855, and he had a very strong impression that it might be possible to have a trade from Calcutta through Munipore to Bhamo and Talifoo. Further, he believed the day would come when we might be able to communicate through the absolutely unknown country between Sudiya in Assam and Bathang, and that we might have consuls in at least four great towns of Western China. All that, however, was for our children and grandchildren to carry out. The duty of this generation was only to explore these outlying regions, and to make straight the paths for our successors. There were two kinds of projectors in the world—those who saw for what the times were ripe and led the way to it—and those who, neglecting the real work of their own age, kept querulously anticipating the work of the age that was to follow, being born, as Lammenais would have said—"with repeaters in. their heads which were always striking the hour." Some friends in the North of England had in this matter of the route between Rangoon and Western China fallen, to their detriment and to the sorrow of the Government, into the hands of the latter kind of projector. In conclusion, he would once more specially direct the attention of the hon. Gentlemen who were interested in this matter to the words of the despatch from which he read an extract. The two motives of the Government in directing the survey to be continued were—first, to extend geographical science and our acquaintance with the frontier lands of our own territory; secondly, to oblige the many mercantile communities which had addressed the Government on the subject. He admitted that it was not satisfactory, after having held Pegu for some sixteen years, that we really knew as little of the countries beyond it as we did some sixteen years before we possessed it. The French, with a far inferior base of operations, and more than twice the distance to traverse, had passed through Yunan, visiting both its Chinese and. its Mussulman capital. That was greatly to their credit, and he hoped, before long, we should, through an increase of friendly and confidential intercourse with our allies at Pekin, Bangkok, and Mandalay, know the Indo-Chinese peninsula much better than we did now; but this particular question of communication with China through Rangoon, which seemed, so to speak, a star of the first magnitude to many in the North of England, seemed to the Government, considered as a project for the immediate benefit of commerce, a star of the fifteenth magnitude —should he not rather say a mere will-o'-the-wisp?—which, if we were to follow it to the neglect of our own real business in India would lead us only into trouble and disgrace.

said, he was persuaded that the state of things upon the West Coast of Africa demanded the attention of the Government. Some years ago he had pressed upon the present Secretary of State for War, at that time Secretary of State for the Colonies, the hardship inflicted upon a gentleman of good position practising as a member of the bar at Trinidad, who had been recommended by three successive Governors for the Attorney Generalship of Sierra Leone, and had also filled the position of Acting Chief Justice, and yet was degraded in consequence of a misunderstanding with the Governor. He would not trouble the House with the details of the case now, but would be glad to mention the matter privately to the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

said, he regretted that the whole subject of the West African Settlements had not been brought under consideration. A case at Cape Coast Castle had come under his knowledge in which, in consequence of some very trifling dispute, a gentleman of good position had been confined in a most filthy dungeon. He regretted to find among his hon. Friends below the Gangway a desire to restrict British operations upon the coast of Africa. If the snail-like policy of withdrawal was to be adopted, he trusted the full-grown prosperous colonies would be allowed to shift for themselves in the first instance, and that we should not give up our protection and our influence over the native races, and in doing so abandon some of the most glorious traditions of the British Empire.

said, he hoped his hon. Friend who had spoken last would give him the particulars of the case to which he referred—he would then cause inquiries to be made with reference to it. His hon. Friend opposite (Mr. R. N. Fowler) had also mentioned a quarrel on the West Coast of Africa. To what cause it was to be attributed, whether to a tropical epidemic, to something peculiar in the character of the West Coast, or to the contact with barbarous races he was unable to say, but the officials upon that coast certainly seemed to spend a vast amount of time in fighting with each other. Statements very similar to those read by the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Buxton) had been received at the Colonial Office; but unfortunately those statements were founded on investigations conducted entirely by persons who were the known enemies of Admiral Patey. The complaint against the Admiral resolved itself into a charge, not of having introduced any improper system of punishments, for the hard labour and shot drill were believed to be perfectly proper in themselves by the Director of Convict Prisons, to whom the matter had been referred, but of having introduced this system without taking those precautions which the climate and the circumstances of the persons to be subjected to the punishment required. The Government had done precisely what his hon. Friend suggested. In the first place, they referred this statement to the Director of Convict Prisons, and then addressed the Governor-in-Chief of the West African Colonies, directing him to have inquiry made, and at once to remedy the grievances complained of, if any such were found to exist, to inquire further as to the conduct of the administration and the management of the gaol. To that letter no reply had yet been received, probably on account of the lamentable visitation of cholera at Gambia, one of the most severe, he believed, upon record. In meeting this visitation, those who had brought complaints against Admiral Patey took no part whatever, but held their hands. Admiral Patey, on the other hand, and one or two other gentlemen, exerted themselves in a manner deserving the highest praise. They buried the dead with their own hands, and went about among the suffering, and did all that lay in their power to relieve them; and this, certainly, had led him to believe that there could not be that inhumanity in Admiral Patey's disposition which was alleged in the complaints about the gaols. With one remark made by his hon. Friend (Mr. A. Johnston) he could not agree. Considering the difficulty there was in administering properly the affairs of these colonies, in contending with the climate, and in controlling the various officials—difficulties which, he believed, had been felt quite as strongly by former Governments as by the present—he certainly thought that if we could manage to draw in our horns on that coast, and get rid of some of our West African settlements, it would be a decided advantage. The necessity which at one time existed of keeping up these establishments in connection with the efforts for the suppression of the slave trade no longer existed; and he believed their relinquishment now would be attended with advantage to this country, and would not be injurious to the settlements themselves. As far as he could see, the general tendency of things upon that coast was far more to barbarize the Europeans than it was to civilize the natives.

said, the question brought forward by the hon. Member was a very important one, and at some appropriate time would receive the careful attention of the Government. In the meantime, however, matters of most pressing importance demanded their immediate attention, and would prevent them from giving it that consideration which it would otherwise have demanded. He hoped that the step taken by the hon. Member would be duly appreciated in Ireland.