said, he rose for the purpose of making an appeal particularly to his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. W. M. Torrens), that he would permit the Government to make a Motion for omitting the clause, and to proceed with the Bill in the mode in which they intended. He entirely admitted, and, indeed, everyone must feel the great importance of the subject which his hon. Friend wished to bring under the consideration of the House. It was extremely desirable that the question should be fully and fairly considered; but he hoped his hon. Friend would think him not unreasonable if he asked him not to bring it forward as a formal Amendment to the clause with which it was the intention of the Government not to proceed.

, who had given Notice to move as an Amendment to Clause 6 (or, if that Clause be withdrawn, as a new clause), page 4, line 41, before "no," insert—

"No person enlisted as a soldier in any regiment of cavalry or infantry of the line shall be called upon to serve Her Majesty out of the United Kingdom until he shall have attained the age of twenty years,"

said, he hoped the Committee would believe that nothing was more contrary to the interests and wishes of one placed in his position than to tempt them to go into a discussion sooner than it was the general pleasure and convenience to do, and if the Government would only assign him an early day when the Bill had come out of Committee, he would be willing to yield. If the Government thought it would be more for the convenience of Public Business to grant him any day on which this should be the first Order, so that what he considered a pressing question should be in the same position, as it now stood, he would not have the slightest objection to sit down and not say another word. But he put it to his right hon. Friend whether it would be a good exchange to give up the advantageous position which he now held for the chance of bringing on the question at an hour before midnight, when it would be impossible that it should be fairly discussed. After long discussion, Mr. CARDWELL said, he would move that the clause be postponed.

said, he was glad to see such an Amendment proposed, because he believed that the less power there was in Dublin Castle the better it would be.

asked whether the first commissions were to be in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant?

said, that first commissions would continue to be re- commended by the Lord Lieutenant; but when a subaltern had distinguished himself by service, then, on the recommendation of the commanding officer, or of the colonel on the Staff, he would be selected for promotion or for a commission in the Line.

said, he hoped there would be harmonious action between the Lord Lieutenant and the Secretary of State, and that a different course would not be taken in different counties.

said, that would be the spirit in which he should desire to act. The main object was to avoid a dual responsibility.

said, he thought it would be far better to leave the appointments, as at present, in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant, whom it was hardly complimentary to confine to the appointments which were generally filled by a very different class of officers from those which were now under discussion.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman intended that the Secretary of State was to recommend the officers—because it was of great importance that the Lords Lieutenant should have the power of appointing those gentlemen who, from their position, were likely to bring a considerable number of men into the regiment, an object which was effected better under the present system than it could be under any other by which it might be superseded.

said, that when the officer was once in the regiment he would rise by merit.

said, he did not quite understand whether the right hon. Gentleman had fully realized the fact that the captain of a Yeomanry corps and the commanding officer of a regiment were, practically, the only recruiting officers in a country district.

said, it was intended to consult the Lords Lieutenant on appointments, with regard to their bearing on the recruiting of the regiment.

said, if he understood the right hon. Gentleman aright the commanding officers of local regiments would be considered competent to recommend persons as officers. That was intelligible. But he could not help fearing that military men might lose sight of this vital principle, that the commanding officer was the only recruiting officer as a rule. No greater mistake could be made than to suppose that persons of more intelligence could keep together a corps of Volunteers or Militia.

said, that it was intended that, in order to keep up a proper connection between the Militia and the counties to which the various corps belonged, the first appointment of Militia officers should be on the recommendation of the Lords Lieutenant. Under these circumstances, would it not be better to insert a statement to that effect in the Bill, otherwise there would be no guarantee for the continuance of the proposed practice, and another Secretary for War might take the power into his own hands.

pointed out that if the officers of the Militia were to rise by merit, and a considerable number of officers were to be brought from the Army into the Militia, it was difficult to see how this arrangement could work. Of course, officers from the Army could not be expected to take the position of subalterns, and if they were made captains, how could the Militia officers rise by merit?

said, nothing could upset the harmony of a regiment more than to carry out the arrangements contemplated.

said, this was a good illustration of the impossibility of laying down rules beforehand in reforming the Army. The intention was, as he stated, to appoint officers of the Army to be adjutants of the Reserved force, making them supernumerary of their regiments while adjutants of the Militia, and subject to being recalled. It would frequently be necessary to bring into the Militia officers from the Army, and this would probably be done in a greater proportion than at present. With regard to putting the arrangement about the recommendation of officers in the face of the Bill, he would have no objection, as far as he was himself concerned. But he did not think it would be wise, in the first place, and in the next place he did not think there was any risk that any future Secretary of State would wish to be troubled with anything so extremely detailed and inconvenient as providing subalterns for the Militia. There was another thing it was desirable to avoid—namely, dual responsibility.

said, they had practical experience that since the recommendation of officers was to be in the hands of Lords Lieutenant these gentlemen had been inundated with applications. The right hon. Gentleman said no Secretary of State would care to take the trouble of appointing subalterns. But there would be a great temptation to do so if these men had afterwards the right of passing into the Line.

said, there were two questions before the Committee—namely, doing away with the power of the Lords Lieutenant appointing certain officers, and the amalgamation of the Regular and Reserve forces. The clause before them was one which had been introduced with a great flourish of trumpets, and that Lords Lieutenant should no longer appoint officers to the Militia was proclaimed in triumphant tones. Now, the transfer of jurisdiction would most likely do harm rather than good, for, as was pointed out by his hon. Friend (Mr. Acland), local influence was a powerful element in recruiting. These forces had always been considered local forces, and it was in the interest of the country that they should be locally considered. It had always been thought necessary and desirable to keep the Militia and the Regular force distinct, in the interests of the nation; and it was through local influences especially that the Militia had been maintained at all. He held that this experiment would add nothing to their strength, and might turn out far less beneficial than they supposed. He was not surprised if the Lords Lieutenant did not object to it, because they had in some instances received but scant courtesy from the Government. Then, as to who were to be appointed, the Secretary of State said they now saw from that discussion the disadvantage that would arise if they laid down strict regulations; but, for himself, he deduced a totally different conclusion—namely, that it was ab- solutely necessary they should know what were the regulations under which officers would be appointed. To judge fairly of the powers given by that clause and of their bearing, they ought to have before them—whatthey had endeavoured in vain to elicit—a distinct understanding as to the mode in which those powers in reference to the appointment of officers were to be exercised. As a Volunteer officer himself, he asked the Secretary of State the other night to state explicitly what he meant by that amalgamation of the Regular and Reserve forces as regarded the force to which he belonged, and the answer then given was that it was intended to appoint officers of the Regular Army to be adjutants of the Militia and the Volunteers. But that was what was really done at present, and though there was to be a change in the mode of appointment, they would still have the same class of officers—that was, of the Regular Army—appointed to the Militia and Volunteers as adjutants. Instead of being appointed, as now, by the Lord Lieutenant—who in most cases acted upon the nomination or recommendation of the officers commanding the regiment, and responsible for its discipline—they would be selected by the Secretary of State for War, irrespective of any such nomination or recommendation. He had ventured on a previous occasion to protest against that change in the interest of the force to which he belonged. Every man commanding a regiment, whether of Regulars, Militia, or Volunteers, know that if he desired that his adjutant to work heartily with him for the good of the regiment, they must be on the most cordial terms. The appointment of an adjutant was almost as important as the selection of a man's wife. If a man and his wife did not agree together, things could not go on smoothly for the rest of their household; and it was equally important for the well-being of a regiment that its commanding officer and its adjutant should be cordial and friendly towards each other. Was that likely to be the case if the Secretary of State was to transfer any officer he chose from the Line to the Militia or the Volunteers to act as adjutant? The Government might, in magniloquent language, call that an amalgamation of their regular and Reserve forces; but he did not think it was for the interest of the service to make such an alteration as that now proposed. It was difficult to believe that, after beating the big drum as they had been doing, the Government had no other change in the shape of re-organization to propose, except one which damaged the relative position of commanding officers and adjutants. He asked whether they had not something in the background, and whether they intended to officer the Volunteers and the Militia much more largely than at present with officers from the Regular Army. Before this clause passed, the Committee had a right to be informed as to what was the Government plan of amalgamation—whether that plan was to be confined to this infinitesimal part of their scheme of Army Re-organization, or whether there was something else in the background. He hoped that the Secretary for War would tell the Committee something clear and definite on that point.

asked, whether it was the intention of the Secretary for War to make the appointments to the Militia for a period of five years? If the officers were to be constantly changed, it was possible that his plan would not work well.

stated that the law with regard to appointments of officers generally by Lords Lieutenant was, that the recommendation for a commission should be sent to the War Office, and if within 14 or 18 days no reply in the negative was received, then the commission was made out. With regard to adjutants, their appointments had always come direct from the Crown, but, as a rule, the commanding officer was consulted on the subject; for unless there was a cordial understanding between him and the adjutant, it was impossible that the well-being of a regiment could be maintained. He understood the Secretary for War to say that in future the adjutants to be appointed would be selected from supernumerary officers of the Line; but that would be a most unwise step, particularly with reference to Militia regiments. To deprive the Lords Lieutenant of their patronage was a doubtful expedient, because if the Militia were to be retained as a local force local influences must not be disregarded, and the best men in the county should be induced to join.

desired to know what would be the position of existing adjutants, because if they were all to be deprived of their appointments five years hence, they must consider what they would do. From his own experience he was able to support the suggestion of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho), that such appointments should be made permanent, for if a supernumerary officer were to be appointed every five years, no commanding officer of either Volunteers or Yeomanry would answer for the efficiency of his regiment.

said, it by no means followed that an appointment made by the civil officer of a local force would be better than one made by a general of wide experience. It was clear that the Secretary for War intended to give full-pay officers Staff appointments of some kind connected with the Volunteer and Militia services. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not give way to the repeated charges from the opposite side, and especially from the noble Lord (Lord Elcho); but would retain in his own keeping the responsibility for which he was accountable to his Queen and country. It was impossible for him to work out these questions in the face of such a minority as he had to contend with. If the Reserve forces were to be of any real service to the country, they must submit to strict military discipline, and those who were to command them should be selected by responsible persons. Those who sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House could not always say what was in their minds upon this subject. It must not be supposed that civilians had no opportunity of knowing something of the feelings of the Army. Their difficulty was that they could not altogether say what they knew was the opinion of the junior ranks, and perhaps of the senior ranks too. They could not say why the abolition of purchase was necessary. He hoped the effect of this discussion would be to make persons in high places take more trouble to become acquainted with the conditions of this civilian service, and he thought it would be well to send some of the best young men in the Army into subordinate positions—as brigade majors or assistant organizers—to work up these forces.

I cannot help thinking that it would be better if hon. Members on the other side would be content to do their own work, and perform their own duties, without lecturing us as to the manner in which we ought to conduct ourselves. When we were last in Committee we had the benefit of a lecture from the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer), and now the hon. Member for North Devon (Mr. Acland) seems to have been so much, encouraged by that example as to take the same course. The present discussion gives us a practical proof of the disadvantages under which we are labouring from the reticent and disingenuous manner in which this Bill has been introduced; and we have difficulty in discussing this clause of the Bill because of our ignorance as to the plans of the Government. There seems to be no difference of opinion between ourselves and the Secretary of State as to the object he has in view in filling up first commissions in the Army; but the question is, how it is to be carried out? He says, leave it to an understanding; but he has never told us what is to be the real system of passing officers from the Militia to the Line. Such, indeed, have been the statements on this part of the subject that, not only Members of this House, but the Lords Lieutenant of counties, who are to be made parties to this arrangement, have no idea how it will be managed. I do not object to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, but I think it ought not to be left vague and uncertain; especially as it is quite clear that if there is to be anything like an extensive system of passing officers from the Militia to the Line, very important patronage will rest in some quarter or other. It seems to me that such patronage, and the patronage connected with first appointments, should not be in the same hands. With this view I venture to move, as an Amendment, to insert in line 30, after the words "Her Majesty," "on the recommendation of the Lords Lieutenant, of counties."

informed the right hon. Baronet that his Amendment being in line 30, while the question before the Committee related to an Amendment in line 24, was out of Order.

Whatever may be the impression formed by the right hon. Baronet with regard to the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer), I at least may object to certain kinds of lectures read to me by the right hon. Baronet. The noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) spoke a short time ago about my sneering. I am not aware that I have over sneered at the noble Lord, and I should be very sorry to do so. He also spoke about my magniloquence and my beating of the big drum. I am quite willing to leave it to the judgment of this Committee whether I deserve to receive lectures upon sneering, upon magniloquence, or upon beating the big drum, and whether the noble Lord is the person to give them to me. But the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir John Pakington) has used a phrase—I do not know whether it is Parliamentary—which I take the liberty of letting him know he has no sort of right to apply to me—he used the word "disingenuous." The right hon. Baronet repeats it. It is an imputation of motive, and I believe that is un-Parliamentary. But whether it is un-parliamentary or not, I beg leave to tell the right hon. Gentleman that I think I have served to very little purpose in this House for many years if I am not superior to a charge of that kind coming from the right hon. Gentleman. I will tell the right hon. Baronet what would be disingenuous. I should be disingenuous if I were to pretend to that forecast of the future which I am conscious I have not if I were to try to lay down, or to profess to lay down beforehand, in definite terms, that which I know must be the result of experience. You are going, if you pass this Bill, to endeavour to fuse together systems which have descended to us from our ancestors, which are very complicated in themselves, and the steps in the process of uniting them must be still more complicated. We propose to begin at the beginning, by placing them all under the same military government, and applying to them, so far as their respective natures will admit, the same rules of administration. We think it highly desirable that forces which are intended to take an important part in the military defence of this country should be placed under the command of colonels on the Staff of the Regular Army, under major-generals commanding in the districts, and under the military authorities as a whole, and not under the Lords Lieutenant of counties. We believe that by these means a beginning will be made of a much more complete system of intercommunication and fusion between the various forces than now exists. The right hon. Baronet may, perhaps, have power of forecast enough to know exactly the several steps and changes by which such a union can be effected. If he has, I envy him the gift. All I can say is that I should be happy if I possessed it, and very glad to communicate the results of it to him. But I think it would be disingenuous to profess to possess it when you know you do not, and to pretend to say that that can be done by one determination which, however easy to do when you have the conscription in your hands, you cannot do by one move and one measures when you have voluntary forces to deal with, every one of which you must carry along with you in every step of your progress. For if you take one step rashly, and find that you have displeased and disgusted them, you must either retire from it immediately, and adopt another expedient, or your whole system will fail. I am sorry to have been obliged to occupy the Committee with those remarks; but I certainly could not allow the phrase of the right hon. Gentleman to pass without some notice.

If any word that can fairly be called un-Parliamentary has fallen from me, I shall at once, on receiving an intimation from the Chair to that effect, withdraw that word. But whether the word be Parliamentary or not, I must say that few things would give me greater pain than to say anything that would be considered personally offensive by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I had no intention of imputing to him personally improper motives. But, on the other hand, we do feel deeply and strongty on this side of the House that we have been treated by the Government as we ought not to have been. We feel that there has been a want of candour, a want of frank communication of their intentions on this important subject, which we deeply lament, and at which we feel naturally indignant. I think we have a right to complain. We have complained of it again and again. There are many points relating to this subject on which, if it is not in the power of the right hon. Gentleman to give us an answer, I have no hesitation in saying that, in my judgment, he ought to be able to give us an answer. If he is not prepared to do so, I am obliged reluctantly to attribute it to their having brought in this great and important measure without that degree of forethought and preparation which any Government is bound to give to such a measure; and if Government is unable to give us the explanations we require, I say they ought not to have put this Bill upon the Table.

admitted that the plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War of receiving subalterns into the Militia with the prospect of obtaining commissions after two years' service had succeeded to a great extent in filling up the ranks of subaltern officers; but whether their hopes of reward would be fulfilled was another matter. After what he had heard during that debate with regard to the far larger question of attracting officers from the Line to serve as ordinary officers in the Militia, he did not see how any proposal of that kind was to be carried out; because if officers from the Line—who had, perhaps, just obtained their company—were appointed as captains to a Militia regiment above the heads of those subalterns who had served for a long time in that regiment, these Militia officers would be disgusted at being passed over. If that were to be done, what encouragement was there for subalterns to enter the Militia at all? It was a most difficult thing to induce officers who had served in the Line to enter the Militia as subalterns, and he did not see how this part of the system of interchange between the two forces was to be carried out under the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman. The question of officering the Militia was in a very unsatisfactory state, and he suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that to effect an improvement in that particular the pay of officers should be increased; for if they required Militia officers, as at present, to be equally efficient with those in the Line, many men, to whom the pay was no object, would decline to expend the necessary time and trouble in order to qualify themselves for that position, so that they would be compelled to attract to the service a poorer class of officers, who were now deterred from it by the fact that the annual training commonly cost them £5 or £10 more than the pay which they received.

said, he thought it was highly desirable that some greater efficiency should be imparted to the Militia, which was a real reserve, and some fusion of it should be made with the Line, but that was attended with great difficulty and embarrassment, and caused great anxiety among Militia officers. One word of explanation from his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War might remove the anxiety. The difficulty to which he had referred was increased by the facilities which his right hon. Friend had given for making initial appointments in the Militia with a view to arriving at appointments in the Line. If the lieutenancies and ensigncies were filled Tip, an officer could not come in from the Line except by supersession, and the question arose how that supersession was to take place. He therefore asked his right hon. Friend by whose authority this supersession was to take place? His right hon. Friend had formerly stated that the appointments were to be made on the authority of the Secretary of State. No doubt the responsibility rested with him; but he wished to know whether the Militia regiments were to be placed for the future on the same fooling as the Line in the matter of promotion? Looking to the fooling of officers of the Line and the Horse Guards towards citizen officers, there was no doubt that no appointment except, the high appointments, which were coveted, would be made, and this would strike a serious blow at the present system. His right hon. Friend had told the House that young men were joining the Militia; but he feared they were joining under a great delusion. Many gentlemen said they had read Cardwell's speech, and it would be a good thing to send their sons into the Militia. But the time of disappointment would come with regard to the appointments, unless some clear indication were given by his right hon. Friend with regard to them. He thought his right hon. Friend should state publicly in his place that the responsibility of the appointments in the Militia would rest upon himself in a far greater degree than with regard to the appointments in the Line, and that with reference to appointments in the Militia he would exercise full control, with a desire of doing justice to the officers of Militia regiments, and with the view of maintaining the esprit de corps which at present existed among them. He regarded the Militia as the true military school of the country. It might be easily embodied, and might be made far more efficient than it was at present. It could be easily disembodied without involving any half-pay or any pension list. All that depended on the local character of that force.

entirely agreed with his hon. Friend (Sir Edward Colebrooke) that the Militia was the real reserve of the country. The appointment of officers would take place on the principle of seniority up to the rank of captain, and after that by selection. He had already stated with regard to the Army, and the remarks applied to the Militia, that it was not intended in the new arrangements in any way to interfere with the regimental system; but that, on the contrary, the principle of selection from the highest degree to the lowest would be exercised with a due regard to regimental considerations. He entirely agreed with hon. Gentlemen that the local principle of the Militia was most important, and that if there was to be a supersession of Militia officers by Army officers it should be upon the gravest grounds, and upon the most important recommendations. He was asked by what authority it would be done. He would answer the question in words that he had before used—the promotions would all be made on the same principles as in the Regular Army, the Inspector General of the Reserve forces being always consulted with respect to every promotion. A special responsibility would certainly rest on the Secretary for War; but the Inspector General of the Reserves would be consulted, because he would have before him the reports of the Generals of districts. He thought the Commander-in-Chief might also very reasonably be consulted.

said, he thought nothing could be plainer in a former speech by the Secretary of State than that, after two years' service, Militia subalterns should have an opportunity of obtaining commissions in the Line.

remarked that what he had stated was, that a certain number of subalterns of Militia regiments who had served for two years in the Militia regiments, and had obtained testimonials, should obtain commissions in the Line.

wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government whether, if this measure were to pass, there would not be then a suitable opportunity for relieving the counties of the expense which they had at present to undergo in providing armouries and other matters for the Militia. The burden of expense had been increased considerably within the last two years. Those who paid local taxes felt it very much.

suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that his principle with respect to the Militia should be promotion by seniority, and that promotion by selection should be the exception.

said, there could be no doubt that the great difficulty in organizing the irregular forces was the obtaining of a proper body of officers to command them. On a former occasion the right hon. Gentleman had stated that Militia officers who were to be transferred to the Line were transferred at present, and that they should be appointed in the same way for the future. It would be in the recollection of the Committee that in the early discussions on this Bill, when purchase met them tit every turn, they were told that the appointment of officers of the Line was a thing that was perfectly impracticable until purchase was abolished. They were now told that the way in which they were to be appointed to the Militia was the same as before.

explained that what he did say was that if there were any supersessions it would be on the recommendation of the Inspector General of Reserves instead of the Lord Lieutenant.

replied that the right hon. Gentleman had not said a word about supersession.

said, it was no doubt a privilege to commanding officers to appoint their own adjutants, and the practice had worked well. It would be found that the adjutants of Volunteers throughout the service were an eminently deserving, eminently hardworking, and a useful body of men, and the explanation was that it had been the interest of the commanding officers to select the best men. It was possible that the exigencies of the service, and the desire to facilitate promotion in the Army, might prove a strong temptation to the Minister of War to pass off upon the Volunteers officers who would not be so suitable. The adjutants of the Volunteers might compare more than favourably with an equal number of officers in the Line, and the general character and knowledge of their profession of the adjutants of the Volunteers had done much to raise the military profession in the opinion of civilians generally. He hoped, therefore, there might be a tacit understanding that the commanding officers of regiments would be allowed to recommend the adjutants who were to serve with them in the same way as the Lords Lieutenant had previously done.

said, he considered that five years' service was infinitely too short for an adjutant of Militia to master all the duties of his position. The adjutant was also paymaster; he was the professional adviser of the officers on all professional matters, and it was, therefore, most important that he should be on the best terms with them. He had been asked to propose an Amendment in the absence of an hon. and gallant Friend of his (Colonel Ruggles-Brise), but he did not intend to press it. It was in page 5, line 36, after "Majesty," to insert—

"All first appointments to the rank of ensign or lieutenant in the Militia having been approved by the Lord Lieutenant of the county."

The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War slated that Lords Lieutenant should be consulted with respect to first appointments in the Militia, but Secretaries for War were neither politically nor physically immortal, and a Secretary for War might succeed the right hon. Gentleman who would not share his opinions on the point. He ventured to prophesy that as the Militia rose—and it was rapidly rising in the estimation of the country—those first appointments would become objects of the keenest competition, and it was, therefore, he thought, desirable that words should be inserted in the Bill, under the operation of which it should be the recognized duty of Lords Lieutenant to assist the Secretary of State in making them.

said, he wished to know, whether the Secretary for War was to have the power, under the Bill, of removing officers of the Army to the Militia against their will? If so, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would inform the Committee what would be the position of an officer who had been thus removed when the Militia regiment in which he hold a commission was disbanded?

said, that it was not in contemplation to take an officer from full-pay in the Army and oblige him to serve in the Militia. He thought it, however, extremely probable that many officers would be induced to accept service in that force. One object of the arrangement was to prevent the sale of adjutancies. In reply to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Berkshire (Colonel Loyd Lindsay), he might observe that the great object was to secure the best men as adjutants. It was not desirable, in his opinion, to limit their appointments to a period of five years, and they were, therefore, left open to renewal. What he meant when he spoke of supernumeraries was, that when, for instance, a very good officer was taken from the Army and made an adjutant in the Militia, he should be allowed to remain as a supernumerary on his regiment, so that he might not lose his position in the Army.

said, he thought that by being placed in the position of a supernumerary in that way an officer might frequently be induced to give up his duties as adjutant in the Militia and return to his regiment. An officer ought not, in his opinion, to be led to look upon those adjutancies as merely temporary appointments. The service ought to be a real service, especially seeing the attention which it would be necessary to pay to the recruiting of the men.

said, he must complain that the explanation of the provisions of the Bill had been so meagre that hon. Members were obliged to ask questions over and over again before they could obtain anything like a satisfactory answer.

, in replying to the observations of the hon. and gallant Member for South Shropshire (Colonel Corbett), said, that under the Bill a commanding officer would have the power to remove his adjutant at the end of five years if he was dissatisfied with him, or to recommend him to be continued in the position if he was satisfied.

said, the discussion showed upon what slight grounds the Government had asked the country to undertake this large expenditure. With regard to Volunteer adjutants, he had heard with extreme satisfaction that they were not to be forced upon commanding officers, and that some security would be taken against the improper sale of these appointments. The simplest rule would probably be that the commanding officer should never listen to the recommendation of the retiring adjutant, he was also glad to hear that these appointments were to be terminable every five years. But it was clear from what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had stated as to the appointments both of adjutants and of Militia and Volunteer officers that they were left very much as at present. That being so, what became of the great scheme of the Government, and where was the necessity for incurring this large expenditure? The alleged ground for the expenditure was the necessity of amalgamating the forces, and practically the Government were going to leave things pretty much in their present state.

said, he was gratified to hear the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, for the original proposal had created some alarm. He urged that the Militia regiments should be made feeders to county regiments, so that a stronger tie should be made between the two.

said, that if the Government intended that no officer should join the Militia service except he began at the bottom of the list—except he entered a Militia regiment—he believed it would be difficult to induce officers who had served in the Line to cuter the Militia service.

wished to know whether the position of the existing adjutants would be interfered with.

said, that in his speech on the 16th of February he had mentioned the expediency of having regiments recruited in their own districts, and had also mentioned the proposal with regard to Volunteer adjutancies. So long as existing adjutants were well reported of they would not be interfered with.

said, the appointment of honorary colonel was purely honorary, and if there were any regulations giving honorary colonels the power referred to by the hon. Baronet he would cancel it; but as he was informed that the privilege depended merely upon regulation, he did not think it right to end it by means of a statute.

, who had given Notice of his intention to move the omission of the clause, said he would not propose his Motion, as he felt he should not be able to carry it; but he doubted whether the Militia would continue to retain its local character, considering that half-pay officers were to be appointed to commissions; that the Secretary of State was to have the power of choosing the adjutants; and that the Lords Lieutenant were to be deprived of the power of appointing officers above the rank of subaltern.

said, he wished to make a few remarks with regard to the Militia Reserve. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would, either this year or the next, take into his consideration what was the design of General Peel in framing that Reserve—namely, that for every man who joined the Militia Reserve another man should be raised in the Militia regiments. If they could get men of proper age and physique to enter the Militia Reserve, they would have a valuable body on whom they could lay their hand in time of emergency. The Militia Reserve was one which he thought should be cultivated and improved; and in order to effect that object he thought their pay should be increased. Another question was that of the Militia volun- teering by regiments for foreign service. Whenever war had occurred—for example, during the Crimean campaign and the Indian Mutiny—the Secretary of State, in the difficulty he experienced of finding men for the Army with the comparatively small force that we possessed, and of meeting the demands for garrisons and other purposes, had made an appeal to the patriotism and gallantry of the officers and men of the Militia to volunteer for foreign service, to which they were not bound by the terms of their engagement. That appeal had never been made in vain, and some 18 or 20 regiments had volunteered and served as garrisons in the Mediterranean stations. The Militia was almost like a second Army for foreign service. If, as believed by some authorities, and, he understood, by Lord Norreys in particular, there were many Militia regiments which would, like that nobleman's own, the Berkshire Militia, be willing to volunteer to be inscribed on a list where they would remain permanently as regiments of Militia ready for foreign service, the Government would know at once that, besides their Regular Army, they had a force to rely upon for foreign service. A high standard of efficiency might be adopted, and the regiments which came up to that standard might be placed on such a list. The Militia was often spoken of as the backbone of our military system; but we did not make the use we might and ought to do of that backbone. If we used our Militia not as that distinguished authority, Lord Sandhurst, recommended lately in "another place," but as General Peel had suggested, they might, with the local connection of the regiments, establish a sound system. He trusted the Government would give their serious consideration to that matter, in which he believed the solution of many of our difficulties would be found.

said, he concurred in what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord Elcho), and regretted that in 1867 he did not introduce the provision which General Peel had contemplated. Whatever might be the result of the proposal of the present Government in regard to short service, the forming of an Army of Reserve, and so on, there was no Reserve in which he had half so much confidence as in our Militia.

, without going into the future, which he hoped he would be excused from doing, with so much now upon his hands, remarked that the clause before them made the whole of the first Army Reserve of the Militia Reserve, and of the Militia, free from any statutory limit, and to consist of such a number of men as Parliament might from time to time provide.

said, he approved establishing relations between regiments of the Militia and of the Line, but hoped due care that regiments were sent to those localities with which they were connected, because it happened that some regiments were known by the name of counties from which they had not recruited a man for several generations.

hoped that trifling matters, such as the particular form of a button, distinguishing a regiment, would not be altogether done away with, because, although trifling, they weighed with the class from which recruits were enlisted.

proposed the omission of the clause.

said, he must repeat his conviction that if the country desired a strong military force, it must adopt the compulsory system in some form or other, however modified. The principle of home defence in this country had always been that every British subject should come forward, if called upon, to defend his country, and when it was seen that almost the first act of the French Government was to introduce the Prussian system, making foreign as well as home service compulsory, it was high time that some steps should be taken in this country in the same direction. At present the Government had no control over the 170,000 Volunteers now enrolled; but that control could be obtained, and that force could be maintained at a high rate of strength by making it obligatory on all men to serve in some form, and making service as a Volunteer confer the right of exemption from something worse. If any Government had the courage to propose that, and risk their places on carrying it, on the ground that the state of neighbour- ing nations required it, he believed the country would respond to the appeal. Without some such provision the Army could not be organized sufficiently; and he desired to enter his protest against a system founded on any other basis than compulsory service.

said, he rejoiced in the admission that if this Bill did nor remedy the disorganized condition of our Army, neither would any other Bill, unless it were founded on compulsory service. Compulsory service, however, was at this moment the law of the land; but each year an Act was passed suspending that law, and he presumed this year would be no exception to the rule.

said, he agreed that the preliminary instruction of the Militia ought to be increased to the greatest possible amount compatible with the interests of the service, but there were important difficulties in the way of such an Amendment as this. If the preliminary training were increased to 12 months it was very questionable whether recruits would be obtained in anything like large numbers, for most men would not consent to give up a whole year of their time for the purpose of military drilling. In fact, the inducement to enter the Militia was different to the Line, as men generally entered with the idea of enjoying a holiday. The clause provided that the men were to attend for drill at the time and place appointed by the Secretary of State, and that, of course, meant that they were to be trained at one of the new headquarters which it was proposed to establish, and in doing that he had no doubt the desirability of keeping up the local connection would not be lost sight of. But this might be dangerous, for the men sent to these training centres might be put under instructors other than those of their own regiments, and, probably, under men belonging to regiments of the Line, and in that way there would be a tendency to cry up the Regulars and give the recruits themselves a contempt for the Militia. One thing that ought to be done was, the establishing of a really well-instructed body of non-commissioned officers, irrespective of the members of the permanent Staff; and their yearly period of training ought not to interfere with their other employments, for they were just the men who, from their steadiness and sobriety, obtained the best civilian vocations.

said, he cordially concurred in what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Walker) and observed that the powers conferred by this clause would not be so used as to lead to any inconvenience. He trusted the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Sir William Russell) would be content with the discussion which had arisen, and not press his Amendment to a division. He quite agreed in the opinion that if they were to train a man for a year at a time they would get no Militia recruits at all, and if they did the men so trained would cost as much as, and become soldiers, and not remain Militiamen.

said, he would suggest that non-commissioned officers should be allowed to qualify themselves in the manner now permitted to the Volunteers—that was to say, by the capitation grant, a plan which would do away with the necessity of their preliminary yearly training at stated periods.

said, the present system of Militia training was unfair and unjust to the Militia, and an unnecessary expense to the country. Unless the men were trained for a longer period they could not be expected to become soldiers.

said, he was of opinion that all Militia recruits should undergo a continuous training of not less than six months at least.

said, he did not think three months at all too long a period for the training; but he did not think the House, which was very jealous with regard to questions of military expenditure, would do well to bind itself by statute with regard to future Estimates. The matter would be better left to the Executive Government acting under the control of Parliament. In addition to this, the exigencies of the labour market in different parts of the country would render it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to carry out the proposals of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

said, he would suggest that increased efficiency on the part of the Militia might be obtained without inconvenience to trade if the system adopted in the Volunteer force were extended to the Militia, and the men were allowed to attend their necessary drills at the times most convenient to themselves. There should be circulating Serjeants passing from village to village with boxes of rifles, and the young men could be drilled on the village green, receiving 6d. or 1s. as the case might be, which they would probably spend in what he would hope might, by the time contemplated, be described as unadulterated beer. By adopting this plan, a saving might be effected, in their being able to shorten the period of the annual training.

said, he thought the value of the periodical training was that it taught men discipline as well as drill.

said, that if his noble Friend (Lord Elcho) would visit him in Devonshire he would show him some boxes similar to those of which he had spoken, and which were used ten years ago. He would suggest, further, the importance of the training officers being more carefully instructed in their duties.

said, under the circumstances, he would not press his Amendment; but suggested that the commanding officers of the district should be consulted as to the possibility of periodical training being continued.

said, the hon. Member for North Devon (Mr. Acland) should remember that the men who taught the Militia their drill were the same as those who made the best Regular soldiers in the world.

said, he should not trouble the House with reference to the clause at present, as he had not expected it would be reached that night; but on the Report he should move its omission if the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) did not press the Amendment of which he had given Notice.

said, he thought the Volunteer force, valuable as it was at present, might be rendered far more valuable. If the Secretary of State for War would firmly handle this question, and determine what was essential for the welfare of the country and of the Volunteers, the latter would respond to any proposal he might make. He believed they would even consent to be called out every year for seven or eight days' service with the Regular Army.

said, he cordially accepted the clause, but thought there would be difficulties in the way of carrying it out.

said, the clause had been inserted because the Government were willing that those Volunteers who were willing to come should be brigaded with the Regular troops.

said, he should like to know whether there were any provisions in the Mutiny Act suitable to the Volunteers. It was absurd to put men under an Act which would not enable the authorities to punish them, especially when the Volunteers were kept in a state of excellent discipline by the power possessed by those in command of instantly dismissing men for bad conduct.

said, he did not think the practical difficulties were as great as the noble Lord seemed to fancy. The old Yeomanry were originally under that Act.

said, the Yeomanry were paid, whereas the Volunteers were an unpaid force. If the Volunteers were called out in service they would be paid, and would naturally come under the Mutiny Act. Considering the circumstances under which the Volunteers had been called into existence, and the state in which they had been kept for 12 years, nothing had occurred to put upon them the slur of being placed under the Mutiny Act.

said, he would move as an Amendment, in page 8, line 34, to leave out "three," and insert "five;" and in page 9, line 5, to leave out "two," and insert "three," so that there should be five instead of three Commissioners. He might also mention that Clause 19 prevented any appeal from the decision of the Commissioners.

said, the business devolving on the Commissioners would not be heavy, though the business devolving on the actuaries, perhaps, might be. It would be very unwise to have a large number of Commissioners, especially as they would have to be paid. No appeal was allowed, because they were really intended to act as a Court of Arbitration; and the Bill defined their duties so clearly, that gentlemen of good sense and intelligence would have no difficulty in discharging them.

asked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to accept the following Amendment:—In page 9, line 15, after the word "commission" to add the following words:—

"And having ascertained such prices, the full sum shall be given in every case, without any deduction whatever in consequence of higher pay in any superior rank, or of any subsequent selection to higher rank, or in consequence of any temporary depreciation of the value of a commission in consequence of being stationed in unhealthy climates or in consequence of foreign war, and the only grounds on which any reduction shall be made shall be on account of value previously received in money; and in all cases which may arise in which it may be discovered that an officer has been unable to sell previous to the day appointed for the abolition of purchase owing to temporary causes, such as there being no purchase officer willing to give the customary over-regulation price, or in consequence of there being a supernumerary in one of the ranks of the regiment, then full compensation shall be given to such officer as if no impediment had existed in the sale of his commission."

, although he thought that the clause would effect what was intended in the Amendment, promised to carefully consider the suggestion.

, for Mr. LEEMAN, moved, in page 18, line 5, after "thereof," insert "and may take possession of any plant without taking-possession of the railroad itself." Line 7, after "direct," insert—

"And the directors, officers, and servants of any such railroad shall obey the directions of the Secretary of State as to the user of such railroad as aforesaid for Her Majesty's service."

said, although the clause was to be withdrawn, he should be glad to hear what were the views of the Government on the subject, because, with the present pressure of local taxation, there was no chance of any county building barracks. The whole Militia force could hardly be put under canvas, and it was very undesirable that Militiamen should be exposed during the period of their training to the demoralizing associations of country towns.

said, he had been in hopes that counties might combine to build barracks for the Militia, considering that money would be lent by the Treasury, and that billet money might be applied in paying a portion of the interest; but looking to the large expense that would be incurred, and the short period the barracks would be occupied, and also to the state of feeling which prevailed in regard to rating, he thought it better to withdraw the clause.

said, he considered that his right hon. Friend had done wisely in not pressing the clause on the attention of the House. But the Government might avail themselves of the powers they possessed and group counties for the building of barracks; he did not think the counties possessed the power of combining for that purpose. Barracks might be built on an inexpensive scale, to be occupied by different regiments in succession. He saw no reason why the embodiment of the Militia should not be spread over more than the months of April and May, September and October, when harvest was over, might be made equally available

observed, that the calling out of the Militia at any period of the year depended on the labour market; but they had also to guard against a great amount of fraud which might be practised by the same person receiving the bounty of different Militia regiments.

, as a Militia officer, opposed the clause, not on the ground of a reluctance to serve abroad, but because he believed that it would prove an obstacle in the way of recruiting for the Militia, for the class of men who entered that force being taken from the lowest strata of society were very suspicious of contracting new engagements. It was the mere unnecessary to introduce such a provision into the Bill, inasmuch as during the Crimean War no less than 40 Militia regiments had volunteered for foreign service. He trusted that the House and the country would have sufficient confidence in the patriotism of the Militia, and would leave them a free choice in the matter.

said, he must remind the hon. Member who had moved, the clause, that when this country was at war, the volunteering for foreign service by the Militia had not only been by regiments, but also by individual Militiamen volunteering to serve in the Line, which had thus obtained a considerable accession to its strength. The proposal, moreover, was objectionable in regard to its limitation.

hoped his hon. Friend would not press his clause to a division.

said, he believed that although a great number of the Militia would be very unwilling to go to India, they would be very willing to serve on the Continent of Europe. He would, however, withdraw the clause.

, in the absence of the hon. Member for East Sussex (Mr. G. B. Gregory), moved a new clause—(Power to Commissioners to commute).

, in the absence of the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), moved, after Clause 23, to insert a new clause—(Compensation to clerks of general meetings).

said, the clause could not be entertained by the Committee, because it was not covered by the preliminary Resolution passed with reference to the Bill.

asked, whether Her Majesty's Government proposed to consider the question raised by the clause?

said, he was afraid he could not hold out any hope that the Government would think it right that these clerks should receive compensation.

said, the same objection applied to this clause as to the last—namely, that it was out of Order to move the clause, as it was not covered by the original Resolution.