asked the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, If his intention has been called to the election of a School Board for the united district of Field Dalling; and, if it is a fact, that the returning officer neglected to publish the notices on the door of the Methodist chapel, as required by 36 and 37 Vic. c. 86, s. 20; that the notice omitted to state the name or the residence of the persons from whom the nomination papers could be obtained; that an insufficient number of nomination papers was sent to the overseers of Field Dalling; that nomination papers could not be obtained in Saxlingham till the 8th June, though the notice of the election was published in the district on the 4th June; that no person was appointed in the district to receive the nomination papers; that the list of candidates was published on Saturday June 12th, and that notices of withdrawal had to be delivered at Fakenham, a distance of 10 miles, by Monday June 14th, notwithstanding that there was no Sunday post in the district; whether the Education Department would sanction the customary fees payable to the returning officer where he conducts the election in an irregular manner; and, whether the Education Department will give further instructions to the returning officers to perform their duties in a legal manner?

Sir, a letter has been received complaining of alleged irregularities in the election of a school board for Field Dalling. The same reply was sent as is sent in all similar cases, in accordance with the office rule laid down when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) was Vice President, and which he announced in this House. The simplest answer I can give is to read the short reply which was sent—

"My Lords do not consider they have the machinery to inquire into local disputes as to the validity of an election. If you consider that you have ground to complain of the election for Field Dalling and Saxlingham, you can raise the question of the right of the persons elected to act as members by filing an information in the nature of a quo warranto. As their Lordships are not prepared to exercise jurisdiction in the matter, they do not think it would he proper to offer any opinion on the question you ask."

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If, considering that the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill is the most important Bill proposed specially for Scotland by the Government this Session, and that the Lord Advocate, on the part of the Government, promised so far back as the 28th of April to press through that Bill, and on that pledge No. 1 Bill of the same title was then withdrawn, he will arrange to give the above Government Bill first place on an early day?

Sir, in answering the Question which the hon. Gentleman put to me some days ago I agreed with him as to the importance of the measure, and I also shared his anxiety that the measure should pass. But the expression of sympathy on my part was described by the hon. Gentleman as discourteous. I can, however, give him no other answer than I did the other day. I think it desirable, and very desirable, that this Government measure should pass; but there are still more important Government measures which take prece- dence of it, and when they are passed I will take care that this Bill is proceeded with.

said, there was no Government pledge as to the other more important measures.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If it is true that the Act authorising the issue of loans to the Irish Fisheries from the Reproductive Loan Fund is practically inoperative in the fishing districts on the coast of Mayo, and that loans which were certified for by the fishery inspectors in the district of Molranny more than two months ago have not yet been issued?

Sir, it is not true that the Act authorizing the issue of loans to Irish fishermen from the Reproductive Loan Fund is practically inoperative in the fishing districts on the coast of Mayo. The first recommendations for loans to be granted in the district alluded to by the hon. Member were forwarded to the Board of Works early last month. Forms have been issued by the Board of Works with regard to all loans recommended for County Mayo, requesting compliance with certain provisions which they deem necessary for the legal and satisfactory execution of the promissory notes for these loans, but in very few cases have replies yet been received to these forms. I may add generally that this Act has imposed upon the Board of Works and Inspectors of Fisheries novel duties, which, while the Act is being first brought into operation, make a considerable addition to their work; and however much it may be regretted that delay should occur in the issue of these loans, I think it will be admitted that the Departments concerned would fail in their duty if, in order to save time, they had neglected to make the most careful inquiry into the bonâ fides of the applications for loans, and to insure as far as possible the repayment of the money advanced.

(for Mr. WADDY) asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether his attention has been called to the language used by the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland in giving judgment in the case of O'Keeffe v. Cullen heard on the 13th and 15th of February 1875, in the Queen's Bench in Ireland:—

"He (Cardinal Cullen) had obtained obedience to a Papal rescript from a pliant body of Commissioners, and all Chaplains in Ireland though appointed by the State and paid by moneys provided by the same, hold those places at his (the Pope's) pleasure, irrespective of all local and diocesan authority. I say, therefore, the Sovereign power is lodged not in the Queen or in those whom She may appoint, but in the Pope;"

Sir, I observe that the trial in which these words were used by the Lord Chief Justice occurred nearly half-a-year ago, and I am informed that the proceedings in that case are not yet terminated, notice of appeal having been given. Under these circumstances it is desirable not to ask Questions in this House founded upon the ease, or to enter into details, since opportunities of fuller information may hereafter be afforded. With regard to the general inquiry, I can only say that if sufficient evidence is given to me that the Pope or any foreign Power is interfering with

"the administration of justice in this country; the rights of individuals in public employment, and the conduct of public affairs in Government Departments,"

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would also consider the effect upon the Commissioners of Education, a public body in Ireland, of which some of the Judges were members, of these imputations by the Lord Chief Justice?

The Question involves a matter of argument, and cannot therefore be put.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true that the appointment of Chief Naval Instructor on board Her Majesty's ship "Britannia" has been filled up by the appointment of a young clergyman, the Rev. J. Aldous, who took the degree of nineteenth wrangler at Cambridge in 1872, and has since filled the post of mathematical sixth master at Shrewsbury School; whether it can be the case that no one was eligible to fill this post out of the thirty-six chaplains and naval instructors and thirty naval instructors now on the Navy List; whether it is true that exceptional pay and rank has been given to Mr. Aldous; and, whether he will have any objection to state what terms have been made with Mr. Aldous?

in reply, said, he had filled up the vacancy in this appointment upon his own responsibility, and because he thought it conducive to the public interests. He must decline to go into the question of the comparative merits of Mr. Aldous and of the other gentlemen alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member. To do so would be highly invidious. Mr. Aldous had the same rank and pay as his predecessors, and had been placed by the Treasury under the fourth section of the Superannuation Act.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If it is true that established labourers in Her Majesty's dockyards, who have been engaged for long periods as skilled labourers, and have received the corresponding increased rate of pay, when pensioned nevertheless have their pensions based only on the lower rate of pay of ordinary unskilled labourers; whether in October last a Petition on this subject from Pembroke dockyard was submitted to the Admiralty in accordance with their Lordships' regulations, but received no reply; and, whether he will take the case of this humble class of workmen into consideration, and make some arrangement by which their pensions may be regulated, as the pensions of more highly paid persons usually are, viz., according to the rate of pay they have been receiving for a fixed period previous to superannuation?

in reply, said, it was true that certain labourers engaged for some time as skilled labourers, and receiving extra pay as such, had received pensions on the lower rate of pay; but the rule was one laid down by the Treasury that pensions must be calculated upon the basis of the established rate of pay. These men, therefore, had not been treated in an exceptional way. A Petition on the subject had been received from Pembroke; but as some alterations in the establishment were going on, no final answer had been given.

Mr. Speaker, in rising to move that you do leave the Chair, I will take this opportunity of making the statement which I promised on a former evening respecting the contemplated visit to India of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. The House is aware that His Royal Highness has for some time contemplated a visit to our Indian Empire. His Royal Highness, as the House knows, is a great traveller; there are very few countries which he has not visited; but I need not dwell on the great importance of travel to a person filling the high and responsible post which His Royal Highness does. I would not say, as a great writer has said, that "travel is the best education; "but I think I may venture to say that travel is the best education for Princes. His Royal Highness, particularly, has always felt an interest in the dominions of the Queen, and it was therefore fitting that he should make that memorable visit to Canada, which both to the Canadians and to himself was equally satisfactory. His Royal Highness now contemplates travels of a more extensive character. The House must be aware that the rules and regulations which were adopted, and which recently prevailed in the visit to our own Colonies, would not be adapted to a visit to India—an ancient land of many nations. In the Colonies His Royal Highness, generally speaking, met a population who were of his own race—I might say of his own religion, his own customs, his own manners. In India he will have to visit a variety of nations, of different races, of different religions, of different customs, and of different manners; and it will be obvious to the House that the simplicity of arrangement which might suit a visit to our own fellow-subjects in the Colonies would not equally apply to the condition of India and its population. There is one remarkable characteristic of Oriental manners, well known to Gentlemen in this House, which did not prevail in the previous travels of His Royal Highness to any great extent—that is, the exchange of presents between visitors and their hosts. This is a custom so deeply rooted in Oriental, and, I may say, particularly in Indian life, that although it was obvious to the old Government of India by the Company that it was one which might lead to great corruption, although the Government of the Queen which succeeded have been animated by the same conviction, and although they prevented those they employed from materially benefiting by this custom, because the latter relinquish the presents and State gifts which they receive, still they found it impossible formally to terminate it, and it has attained an important development among the Indian population. Well, the Council of India upon this point received an intimation, or more than an intimation, from the Viceroy that mere presents of ceremonial, which have of late years been discouraged, need not, in the opinion of his Excellency, be adopted in the present case. But I may remind the House that, although an arrangement of that kind might be effected, still His Royal Highness is about to visit immense populations—populations of upwards of 200,000,000 souls, and that he will be the guest, or make the acquaintance, of many Chiefs and Rulers; that there are among these great populations, I believe, at least 90 reigning Sovereigns at this time; and no doubt His Royal Highness must be placed in a position to exercise those spontaneous feelings, characteristic of his nature, of generosity and splendour, which his own character and the character of the country likewise requires to be gratified. I mention these circumstances in passing. The House is aware that by the arrangement now prevailing in India, if a present is received by any one employed by the Government of the "Viceroy, that present is yielded up to the Government; that it is dealt with by a particular Department of the State; that it is sold, and the proceeds of the sale placed to the account of the Government. I think the House will agree with Her Majesty's Ministers that there would be something most undignified, something most distasteful, if on a visit like this by the Heir to the Crown of Great Britain any details of this kind should be entered into. I hope, also, that the House will agree with another conclusion of Her Majesty's Ministers—namely, that really it would be advisable, if we can arrange it—and I think it can be ar- ranged—that this question of presents should not be the subject of any discussion whatever. I think we can make arrangements that we should not even come to a specific vote upon a subject of that character, for it is impossible not to see that all the grace and dignity of gifts are lost if those who receive them are aware of that too mechanical and common-place manner in which things are arranged which should spring from the spontaneous feeling and impulse of the donor. Having made these few observations, I will now tell the House what are the arrangements which we propose to make, and in which the House, of course, will be deeply interested. The duration of the visit of His Royal Highness will be probably six months, and, as far as I can form an opinion, he will leave Europe about the middle of October. About the 17th of October, I think, the Serapis and the Osborne will be at Brindisi. The Serapis is fitted up for the accommodation of His Royal Highness and suite; the Osborne attends the Serapis, first of all in case an accident should occur, which I trust will not be the ease; and, secondly, because when they enter the great rivers of India, the Serapis will not have that draught of water which would allow her to advance. Besides this, the detached squadron has been ordered, under Admiral Lambert, to rendezvous at Bombay, both in order to strengthen the Indian station and to give that pomp and circumstance which becomes the Heir of one who, I hope, is still the "Sovereign of the Seas." Whether the detached squadron will meet the Prince at Bombay or Aden is not yet settled, and I think it is a point which must be left to the decision of His Royal Highness. My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty will place upon the Table an Estimate of the expenses of the visit, as far as the Navy is concerned. That Estimate for carrying the Prince and his suite to India and bringing them home in due time will be about £52,000, about four-fifths of which must fall upon the present financial year, and the other fifth upon the one that follows. "When His Royal Highness touches the Indian soil he becomes the guest of the Viceroy. The Viceroy has strongly expressed the opinion and the wish that this should be the case. He is deeply interested in the visit of the Prince, which he has approved from the first, and has expressed, in language which I have read, that it would be of great benefit to this country and to India. But although the Prince is to become the guest of the Viceroy in India, the expense to the Indian Government will not be too considerable, for it will be confined to the rites of hospitality. I do not know that it is necessary for me to give the House an estimate of that cost to the Indian Budget. I am not in any way responsible for that, though I may say I have seen an estimate, and it is not one of very considerable amount. A sum of not more than £30,000 has been casually mentioned. It is my duty to inform the House of the position in which His Royal Highness visits India. He does not go there as the Representative of Her Majesty, but as the Heir Apparent of Her Crown. It is, therefore, obvious that some difficulties which, under other circumstances, might be contemplated as arising from the position of the Viceroy and His Royal Highness cannot prevail in the present instance, because no one has been so earnestly anxious for this visit as the Viceroy himself, and no one has been more careful and fruitful in devising expedients which may secure for His Royal Highness that position which would satisfy the country and himself. For reasons of this kind it has been arranged that His Royal Highness shall hold an investiture of the Order of the Star of India, which will probably be the most important ceremony in which the Princes and Chiefs of India will participate. There are many other things by which I feel convinced that, without taking a step which would be full of political inconvenience, by interfering in anyway with the legal and constitutional character of the Viceroy, His Royal Highness will be placed throughout his travels in a position which will impress the mind of India with his real dignity and influence. I have shown to the House what will be the expenditure incurred in carrying the Prince to India and in preparing and securing his return to this country. I have intimated to the House the possible expenditure which will be defrayed by the Indian Treasury during the time His Royal Highness is in India, and which, as I have observed, will be limited to the rites of hospitality; it is necessary for me now to tell the House the sum we think it necessary to propose that the House should vote for what I may call the personal expenses of His Royal Highness. I do not wish in any way to advert again to the subject of presents. We consider that His Royal Highness should be able in a manner worthy of his character and position to gratify all those impulses for which, under the circumstances of this case, when he becomes the guest of those Indian Chiefs, and often not only the sharer of their hospitality, but of their pastimes, he should be properly provided, and the amount we propose to move in Committee on the first fitting opportunity is the sum of £60,000. We believe that is a sum which will allow His Royal Highness to accomplish all that he can reasonably desire, and will maintain his position with becoming splendour. We propose, also, that that sum should be subject to an audit, and that the auditor should be Sir William Anderson—a name well known to the House. He will be in constant communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the accounts will be strictly confidential. The money will be expended on the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government, and we appeal with confidence to the House to agree to the arrangement we have made. I do not know that there is anything I need add further than to express a hope that Providence will keep guard over this precious charge, and that His Royal Highness may, after his visit to India, return to his native land with that enlarged experience which becomes the Heir of Empires.

I rise for the purpose of asking the right hon. Gentleman whether he can give the House any information as to the date when it may be probable the discussion on these Estimates will be taken; for although I am quite sure no discussion of the proposal will occur in the sense of hostile or captious criticism, yet, as there are many Members in this House who have very considerable experience of Indian affairs, some of them might desire to offer suggestions which might be gratefully received by the Government. I have said I do not propose to discuss the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made; I will only say that I believe the House and the country received with very great satisfaction the announcement which was made some time ago that it was the intention of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to avail himself of the greatly increased facilities which now exist for visiting Her Majesty's dominions and the allied Sovereigns of India, and that the satisfaction with which that announcement was at first received has not, on further consideration of the project, been in any way diminished. As to the mode in which the visit should be conducted, I think the country had only two subjects of anxiety, and the House reflected in that the opinion of the country. I think the country and the House were anxious, in the first place, that the arrangements for His Royal Highness's visit should be made on a sufficiently liberal scale; and, secondly, that the Indian finances should not be called upon to bear any part of the expenses excepting what would unavoidably fall upon them. I think the statement of the right hon. Gentleman has been satisfactory, at all events on the latter point. Of course, the Government must have greater facilities than any Member of the House can have for forming an opinion as to the sum which it is probable will be required to pay the expenses of His Royal Highness's visit. The sum named by the right hon. Gentleman does not certainly appear to be a large one; it is one which the public expectations have considerably increased; but the House, I think, will feel that the responsibility of proposing what is necessary for making all proper arrangements on this subject must rest on the Government; and the Government must, I am sure, be aware that any reasonable Estimate they might think it necessary to lay on the Table will be cheerfully accepted by the House. I have only one other observation which it is at all necessary I should make; I think the House will have received with satisfaction the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that His Royal Highness is not to visit India in any way as the representative of Her Majesty. The visit, I believe, will do good both in this country and in India. I think it will be far better that His Royal Highness should visit India in a semi-official character rather than in an official character; but, at the same time, the arrangements made for his travels throughout India should be made with sufficient and becoming liberality. The House will probably appreciate the spirit in which the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman have been made on the subject of presents. It is, I conceive, impossible, in the circumstances of this visit, and considering the customs which prevail in India, that His Royal Highness should not do as other travellers do—receive and make presents; but anything like a detailed statement of the expenses of that part of the arrangements would detract from the dignity and propriety of the occasion. I believe it may not be impossible for the Indian Government to impress on the minds of the dignitaries His Royal Highness will visit that the presents which His Royal Highness would desire to receive should not be of any intrinsically costly character, but should rather be interesting specimens of the products and manufactures of the country. If that could be accomplished there would be no necessity, I conceive, that the presents which His Royal Highness will present in return should be of any extravagant character, provided only that they should be adequately good specimens of English products and manufacture. That I think the House would desire; but I do not think that His Royal Highness, or the House, or the country, would desire to see that in a matter of this kind he should attempt to emulate the ideas some people may have of Oriental magnificence. I trust, if there is to be a discussion on this Vote, it may be taken in Committee, when the Estimate has been presented. I am sure the Government will receive any suggestion which may be made in a friendly spirit; and I think I may venture to say that on this side of the House no criticism or suggestion will be made, but in the most friendly spirit, and with a view of giving every support to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman.

I believe that the statement of the Prime Minister will be received with satisfaction though out the country. I should not have presumed to rise on the present occasion were it not to make a suggestion which, if it were adopted, will, I believe, cause the statement of the Prime Minister to be received with far greater satisfaction by the country. I believe that the reason why what has been said by the Prime Minister would give satisfaction to the country is this—that there is a wide-spread feeling throughout the nation that, if the Prince of Wales went to India, his visit should be fittingly provided for; but there is a still stronger and much deeper feeling—namely, that England, and not India, should bear the expenses of the visit. I am sure that the people generally will feel greatly relieved when they find that so small a portion of the expenses is to be borne by India; but if the Prime Minister had carried out this policy somewhat further, and appealed to the generosity of this House, and to the generosity of the English nation, and had said—" We will not only bear the greater part of the expense of the visit to India of the Heir Apparent of the Crown, but the people of India shall not be subjected to one farthing of expense," I venture to say that the £30,000, £40,000, or £50,000 additional expense would have been cheerfully paid by the English people. I cannot help thinking it is greatly to be regretted that £30,000 will come out of the Indian revenue in order to enable the Viceroy to dispense hospitality during the visit of His Royal Highness. If this item appears in the Indian Financial Statement, it will seem to be an invidious thing that the people of India should be subjected to any expense in order to enable the Viceroy to dispense hospitality on account of this visit. I would, therefore, make the suggestion—which I feel sure will meet with the approval of hon. Members on both sides of the House—that when this subject is again discussed the Prime Minister should come down to the House and say—"We will not call upon India to pay this £30,000 or £50,000, but in order that everything may be done in the most gracious and handsome manner, England shall bear the whole of the expense of this visit of His Royal Highness to India, because we are anxious that the visit should be as fruitful of blessings to the Indian people as possible."

said, that as he had on the Paper a Notice that he would call attention to this matter on going into Committee of Supply, he might be allowed to say that he believed the statement made by the Prime Minister would be received with great satisfaction throughout the country. He could not say he disagreed with the remarks of the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett). The statement of the Prime Minister would have been received rather more graciously throughout the country if he had been able to say that the visit of His Royal Highness should not cost a penny to the revenue of India.

I feel great reluctance in stating that I differ entirely from the hon. Member (Mr. Fawcett) in the remark that the country will be willing to meet this expense, and even more. I would have remained silent, but for the fact that I desire to refer to the feeling that I have heard frequently expressed in the country with regard to Votes of this kind. I wish, however, to assure the House that I do not rise to do so with any feeling of hostility towards Her Majesty's Government. No one can be more loyal than I am, and no one can be more desirous of seeing this country well governed. Nay, more; it is because I fear that the course which the Government are now proposing to continue may lead to disloyalty, that I protest against this money being spent. Votes of this description tend more to bring the Crown of England into disrepute than anything else I know of. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen say no; but I am aware, and they also are aware, of the effect which these Votes have upon the working classes. Votes of this character tend more to create disloyalty than all the Republicanism, internationalism, or any other "ism" put together. With that feeling I take this opportunity of raising my protest against this Vote being granted, and I believe that protest will find a ready echo throughout the country. If Her Majesty's Government will only give the country time to think the matter over, I firmly believe that, from the great working class centres, there will come within a very short time this expression of feeling, which will leave no doubt whatever, that the Vote the House is asked to grant is not one desired by the country, and is not, in their opinion, likely to be beneficial to the people of India.

having been lately a member of the Council of India, thought it right to say that, looking at the matter from an Indian point of view, the proposal made by the Government seemed to him to be satisfactory and a rational solution of the question. He did not think it would have been positively unjust if the whole expense had been settled on the Indian Treasury. We did not receive direct tribute from India; we did a great deal for India, and we did not charge India with any part of the expense of Royalty. He should not have considered it an actually unjust proposition to throw the whole expense on India; but it would have been eminently ungraceful to do so. He believed this country was prepared to bear that share of the expense which it was proper it should bear, and the feeling of the country was expressed by the reception the House had given to the proposal of the Government. On the other hand, he believed that India was prepared to bear her share also. He was not prepared to go as far as the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), and to demand that the whole expense should be borne by this country, for he believed the apportionment proposed by the Government was fair and reasonable. We must look at the matter as if the Prince were about to visit a foreign Government which would incur some outlay in according to him a hospitable reception.

I have heard with pain and regret the remark of the hon. Member (Mr. Macdonald) that this grant will not find an echo in the country. So far from that being the case, I believe that the project which has been sketched by the Prime Minister will meet with the unqualified approval of all the great centres of industry in this country. I do not know by what title the hon. Member takes upon himself to speak for those centres of industry; but, for my own part, I feel confident that the feeling will be exactly opposite to that indicated by him.

understood that the cost of the visit was estimated at about £30,000. If it was to be of any benefit in India the Prince should travel with the same amount of magnificence that the Viceroy did on his tours. Before the Indian Government went to Simla it was the custom of the Viceroy to make a tour in the cold season and to travel for three or four months. The last Viceroy who did so was Lord Elgin; in the time of Lord Canning there was special reasons for exercising economy. On no occasion did the expense of such a tour fall below £50,000, and it often exceeded that sum. That fact might throw some light on this question, and it might lead the Government to consider whether the sum of £30,000 would be sufficient to defray the cost of His Royal Highness's receptions in the course of his travels. He wished to express his hearty concurrence with the view of the hon. Member for Hackney, that not a farthing of the expense of this visit ought to fall on the Natives of India.

said, he thought the observations of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald) might have been received with a little less dissatisfaction. If hon. Members would look a little more closely at the bearings of the question, they would see it was somewhat different from a proposal to give an annuity to a Member of the Royal Family; and objections which could be raised to a proposal of this kind would be entirely out of place in a discussion on a proposed annuity. Annuities were granted to Members of the Royal Family to enable them, as representatives of the country and of the State, to transact their official business with dignity and to keep up their social position. When anyone suggested that these annuities ought not to be granted, or ought to be cut down, there was something which touched the honour of a gentleman and which assailed the so-called dignity of respectable persons in objections of this kind. Considerations of this kind did not at all enter into the present proposal, which was made to the House on grounds of public policy. The honour and dignity of the Crown were by no means involved in this Vote. The honour and dignity of the Crown would be involved in the manner in which it was proposed to carry out the arrangements of the visit of His Royal Highness to India; but he would remind the House that that was a secondary question, and he should like to know before he voted upon it what results beneficial to the Crown and the people of England were likely to be derived from this visit? He was anxious to know what benefit could accrue to the Queen or the Royal Family from this visit to India. The only thing that threw light upon that point was the reference made by the Prime Minister to the manner in which the Prince of Wales would make his progress through India, and to the good that would be done by his investiture of some of the Native Princes with the Order of the Star of India. It did appear to him that if His Royal Highness had no higher object than that, he would be much better occupied at home. And he objected to putting the country to this expense for the same reason that he objected to the Royal residence in Ireland. He feared that the House was of opinion that the visit of the Prince of Wales to India would be a panacea for the grievances of India, just as some hon. Members thought a Royal residence in Ireland would remove the evils of the country. They had heard much of a Royal residence in Ireland. ["Question!"] He did not find fault with hon. Members who declined to hear any illustration of his arguments. ["Question!"] Perhaps when there were so many matters pressing on the time of the House, he was wrong in pursuing this topic; but he must say that the right hon. Gentleman had failed in showing that any good whatever was likely to arise from the proposed visit; and he, for one, could not give his sanction to the proposed expenditure until he saw that some practical good was likely to arise from it.

I would not have risen to say a few words if the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald) had not asserted that he spoke in the name of the working classes. I tell him that on this matter he does not represent the opinions of the working classes, and I believe that if you polled the working classes in this country nine-tenths of them would repudiate the doctrines which he has laid down.

There is nothing in the world easier than to make the assertion that the hon. Members on this side of the House who sit here by the votes of the working classes do not represent their opinions. I will venture to give one illustration which will throw some light on this subject. When on another occasion I opposed a certain Royal annuity that was proposed, I said that I spoke in the name of 10,000 of the working men of Leicester; but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone) fairly enough challenged my opinion, and said he thought that I was mistaken in supposing that I did represent the opinion of the working classes. It was not very long after that I had an opportunity of standing in the Market Place of Leicester, and put to an assembly of more than 10,000 working men the question that I had raised in this House. I asked—" Did I represent your opinion on that question or not?" and they, without a dissentient voice, sanctioned and endorsed my conduct. I am prepared to support the opinion of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald), that anything like the unanimity which has been claimed for public opinion on this question does not exist. I have received many communications hoping that I and the other Radical. Members would oppose this grant; and I believe that if a public meeting were called at any of the large centres of population the answer given to the proposition of the Government would be very different from that which will be given by this House.

who rose amid cries of "Oh, oh!" said: I only intend to say a very few words. But I intend to be heard. I simply mean to say that I think it is a very unreasonable way of making presents to make them out of other people's pockets. If His Royal Highness is to make presents to the Native Rulers of India, he should give them out of his own private purse, and not out of the pockets of the working people of this country.

I do not, Sir, profess to speak on behalf of the working classes of this country, but on my own behalf; and, as one who has had considerable experience of the working classes of this country, I beg to join my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald) and other Members of this House in uttering an earnest protest against this Vote.

I have no pretensions to speak on behalf of the working classes, but we are told—and no doubt truly—that no classes in this country are more loyal or more anxious to maintain the dignity of the Empire. We hear from the Prime Minister that the Viceroy of India is most anxious that this visit should take place in the interests of the Government of India, and believes that it will draw closer the ties which bind India to England. Well, I think if it were put to the working men of Stafford, Leicester, or other places that such was the feeling of the Viceroy of India that such was the object of this visit, and that it was encouraged by the Government; and if it were put to them whether it should be done in a way worthy of England and of the Prince who goes to India, and that as little as possible should be spent by the Indian Government, I am perfectly satisfied that the loyalty and public spirit, and that pride in the Empire which I believe animates the working classes, would lead them to endorse such a Vote.

I wish to say one word on this subject. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Macdonald) said, with some confidence the other night that on a certain question I did not represent the views of the working classes. I challenged him distinctly to meet the working classes and to submit my opinion with his, but he did not accept that challenge. I now pledge myself to the opinion that upon this question the hon. Member for Stafford, the hon. Member for Leicester, and other hon. Members do entirely belie the sentiments of the working classes. It is not difficult to obtain at a public meeting a clamorous reply to a categorical question; but I assert that the working classes are always ready to maintain the true interests and honour of this country.

We propose to take the Votes for the visit of the Prince of Wales to India on Thursday next.

said: Perhaps the House will allow me touch on a subject of a somewhat personal nature, with reference to an answer which I gave the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goschen), in regard to the office of Queen's Remembrancer The House is aware that the Judicature Commission recommended that the office of Queen's Remembrancer should be abolished, and afterwards there was a Treasury Minute on the same subject, which bound the Government to take some steps in the matter. This took place under the late Administration. It so happens that the office of Queen's Remembrancer exists by statute, and that there are several important duties attached to that office. No steps were taken in consequence of the recommendation of the Commission or of the Treasury Minute, and when I came into office I received a memorial from the Lord Chief Justice and other Judges, calling my attention to the fact that the office of Queen's Remembrancer had not been filled up; that it involved some important public duties, and that the administration of justice was arrested in consequence. I accordingly filled up the office, and, as certain duties were vested in this office, I had no option in the matter. In filling up the appointment, however, I made it a condition that, pending the decision of Parliament, the office should be regarded as temporary, and that in the event of its abolition the person appointed should have no claim for compensation. The office is given as a matter of routine to the Master of the Court of Exchequer. The salary attached to it is £500 a-year, and he has accepted it subject to the conditions I have mentioned.

rose to call attention to the measures adopted for repressing the East African Slave Trade; and to move—

"That no treatment of the question of the East African Slave Trade is satisfactory which does not include the presence of a squadron in the Red Sea."

as a Member of the Select Committee of 1871, seconded the Motion. That Committee found that what we had done on the East Coast of Africa was utterly inadequate, and only added to the evil rather than diminished it; and that it was impossible to deal with this question effectually without further treaty provisions and a considerable increase of the naval squadron. That was the practical effect of their recommendations. He felt bound to express his satisfaction with the manner in which the question was taken up at the earliest possible moment by the late Government, and the way in which their measures had been carried on by the present Ministry. Some tangible results had been obtained from the efforts which had been made. The slave market at Zanzibar—the horrors of which had been so graphically described by Sir Bartle Frere—had been shut up, and the traffic by sea to the North of Zanzibar had been almost entirely put an end to. A debt of gratitude from this country was due to the officers and men of the naval squadron who had so well fulfilled such difficult and dangerous duties. Because there was still a traffic between the coast of Africa and Madagascar, and there were large caravans going North, some thought the treaty was useless, but he did not agree with them. It was the opinion of those who knew best that those large caravans were but the remanets, that they were the slaves in store, and the Committee had no evidence that this traffic would be maintained. The question arose whether it was politic to interfere with the land traffic. We might interfere in two ways. We might go to the Sultan and demand a revision of the treaty to enable us still further to interfere, or we might say—"These men are carried further North for the purpose of being exported, the treaty is not properly carried out, and we have a right to enter and stop this thing ourselves." He knew this was a point which was under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and that they had not hesitated to carry out the treaty entered into by Sir Bartle Frere. The Seyyid, our guest, was very loyal in the matter; and if we remembered that we were dealing with a weak man whom we should have to help, and that we must not ask too much from him, we might effect a great deal of what we desired. It was the old traditions of the Foreign Office under Lord Palmerston that we were carrying out. His hon. Friend hit a great blot with respect to the power of search being denied us by the French, Turks, and other nations. If we went on as we had commenced it would prove commercially a great success, for it was impossible by all accounts to exaggerate the resources of the country with which we were dealing. He predicted that a large amount of work would be required at the Foreign Office in connection with this work of putting down the slave trade, and he therefore urged that the special Slave Trade Department should be restored.

said, that the question of slavery required the most continual and constant watchfulness, and he therefore cordially agreed with the hon. Baronet that the Slave Trade Department of the Foreign Office should be restored. That Department was at present merged in the Consular Department, and he trusted it was about to be revived. The Queen's Speech at the end of last Session contained the following paragraph:—

"The Treaty recently concluded with the Sultan of Zanzibar, having for its object the suppression of the East African Slave Trade, has been faithfully observed, and has already done much to put an end to that traffic as carried on by sea. The exertions of my Naval and Consular servants, in that part of the world, will not be relaxed until complete success has been obtained."

said, that he entirely concurred in that part of the speech of his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury) in which he said that having undertaken the suppression of the slave trade on the East Coast of Africa, we could not afford to let it drop. Neither was there a single word which he (Mr. Bourke) had said in the speech quoted by his hon. Friend or elsewhere which he was not prepared to hold to. But his hon. Friend had mixed up two things which were entirely distinct—namely, the traffic on the East Coast and the slave trade carried on in the Bed Sea. Somali Land was far south of the Bed Sea. It was, no doubt, a fact that the slaves were absorbed in Somali Land; but the slave trade in the Bed Sea had no more to do with the traffic on the East Coast than it had with that on the West Coast. In a recent interview with Dr. Kirk, he was informed that no slaves for the East Coast were taken beyond Lamoo, which was one degree below the Equator, for the best of all reasons—namely, that it did not pay, as in making the transit, even up to that point, 80 per cent of the slaves died. His hon. Friend did not, he thought, do justice to what had been done by the late and the present Government with regard to suppressing this inhuman traffic. The hon. Member showed that the difficulties to be met were very great; but he did not show the amount of success that had resulted from their operations. He (Mr. Bourke) might start at once by telling the House that the traffic on the East Coast had been practically stopped by sea. Was not that an enormous gain compared with the condition of things proved before the Committee of 1871? When we recollected the antiquity of the traffic and the miserable barbarities which attended it along the coast, and in the Persian Gulf, the statement that absolutely no dhows ever left the coast now was sufficient to show, in a rough way, that a great deal had been done towards suppressing the African slave trade. With regard to the land route, he wished all who had the suppression of the slave trade at heart to understand that that route was as formidable as ever, perhaps more so, up to a certain latitude; and the question was, what was to be done. It did not appear to the Government it was at all certain that the slave trade by land would continue, and that the increase of the trade by that route during the last two years was not due to the coasting trade being stopped; and there were those who thought that when the supply from the interior was diminished by reason of the traffic by sea being stopped, the land traffic would to a great extent stop also. We also knew that slaves who were formerly taken to Persia and other countries were being absorbed along the coast, partly in Somali Land, and partly in other territory. Now that the sea trade was stopped the demand for slaves must be limited, and if the trade from the interior towards the coast was now diverted along the land route, it was believed that when the slaves were absorbed—who had left the interior before the blockade had been thoroughly established—the demand for them would cease, and that in that way the trade itself would stop. Her Majesty's Government were perfectly aware of the trade that went on between Madagascar and Mozambique, and they had directed the attention of the Portuguese Government seriously to the subject, and they had received considerable encouragement from that Government on the subject. They had ordered the Governors and commanders of steamers to act in concert with ours in putting it down; and it was only a short time since that the captain of the Thetis had been in communication with the Governor on the coast of Mozambique, and by his co-operation was able to search several harbours and make several very important captures, and there was every reason to believe that when the Portuguese Government really co-operated with us there would be an end of the slave trade along that part of the Coast. Two of the most important captures of the last two years were made between Mozambique and Madagascar, and the number of slaves thus rescued would seriously reduce the number of Africans who had orginally been carried into slavery. It was an important question how to deal with liberated slaves. Some persons were of opinion that it was desirable to form a settlement for them on the East Coast, where they could be placed under the guidance of missionaries, who should undertake their education. No doubt if it were established it would assist materially in putting a stop to the land traffic, for the caravans would not go near it; but by establishing such settlements we should be incurring very great risk if differences should arise, and after they were established there was the probability that they would become absorbed in the general population of the country, and, if not, that they would go to something worse—be re-captured and taken into the interior. It was also considered highly inexpedient that the African, after he had been reduced to slavery and liberated by British cruizers, should be ever allowed to return to his native country from the absolute horror with which they regarded such a prospect. The House would hesitate a long while before it consented to establish a regular British settlement on the East Coast, and certainly the Government were not prepared to do it now, whatever efforts might be made spontaneously by the missionary societies. There was at present a very efficient squadron on the East Coast of Africa, and that the ship London, which the late Government prepared, and which was sent out by the present Government, was doing good service. The Committee of 1871 recommended the appointment of Consular Agents; but it must be remembered that the East Coast of Africa was an extremely unhealthy climate, and contained a lawless population, and before we established Consular Agents on the Coast we must take care that the Sultan of Zanzibar was in a position to afford them protection; because nothing would be more unwise than to establish Consular Agents in a place where they would run the risk of being murdered by the Arabs or be likely to die of fever. A Consular Agent had been sent to Mozambique, and he had sent home some satisfactory despatches. Her Majesty's Government, however, had taken powers for our Consular Agent at Zanzibar to send persons where it was desirable to obtain information for our cruisers, believing it to be a better mode for accomplishing our object than sending an Agent to a particular spot. He could assure the House that the Government were earnestly considering the subject. An increase had been made in the Estimates this year in connection with the subject, and the First Lord of the Admiralty had taken great pains to send out ships to the Coast that would perform their services satisfactorily to the country. Her Majesty's Government had no reason to think that the number of ships that were employed in this service was inadequate. We had now five ships on the coast, and one of them being a surveying ship did not prevent her from repressing the slave trade. He, therefore, hoped that upon further con- sideration his hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth would see that at present Her Majesty's Government had no reason to think it was advisable to increase the squadron. From time to time, if there were reason to increase the squadron or the Consular Establishment, Her Majesty's Government would be very happy to take steps for the carrying out of the great object which his hon. Friend had in view. As to the subject alluded to by the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. E. Ashley)—namely, the Slave Trade Department of the Foreign Office, no doubt that Department had done a very great work, and we could not forget that the suppression of the slave trade on the Western Coast of Africa was in a great measure due to the exertions of that Department. But now that a change had been made in the Foreign Office and the Slave Department was merged in the Consular, Her Majesty's Government saw no reason at present to change that arrangement. Of course, if it were found that that Department had too much work to do the staff might be increased; but he thought it was undesirable to make any change at present. With reference to the observation of his hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth and of the hon. Member for Poole as to the Khedive's territories having been increased for the purpose of enabling him to carry on the slave trade, he (Mr. Bourke) looked upon that as a great libel upon the Government of the Khédive, He believed that, so far from the Khédive having the smallest intention of encouraging the slave trade in his new territories, his great motive in annexing them was the suppression of the slave trade. All we could hope for, and all we could do in endeavouring to suppress the slave trade on the Red Sea, would depend upon the measures which he believed the Khédive was perfectly able and willing to carry out. There could not be a doubt that there was a great slave trade in the region referred to by his hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth. What Her Majesty's Government had done with regard to that trade was this—they had appointed a Consul at Jeddah, and they had received a great number of communications from him; but he was in a totally different position from the Consul on the Eastern Coast of Africa; he had not power to interfere with the slave trade like the Consul on the Eastern Coast. The Sultan of Zanzibar, by the treaty he had entered into with us, had undertaken to do his best to put an end to the slave trade, and therefore our Consul called upon his officers to help him; but we had no such treaty with the Khédive, nor was there any intention on the part of the Government to ask for such from him. The attempt to obtain a right of search for slaves on board vessels carrying the French flag was not desirable, because it might lead to difficulties and complications we did not want to be involved in. He could not assent to the Motion, because it would pledge Her Majesty's Government to deal with the slave trade of the Red Sea in the same way as on the East Coast of Africa. That was not the course which they were prepared to adopt; but he could assure the House that negotiations were in progress with the Khédive and the Turkish Government. Those negotiations were not yet completed; and until they were completed he did not think it desirable that the Papers asked for should be presented. He trusted that the statements he had made would be satisfactory, and he could assure the House that the subject would continue to receive the most earnest attention of Her Majesty's Government.

said, that having taken great interest in this question, he wished to express the pleasure with which he had listened to the speech of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. It was clear that the efforts made by the late Government to put an end to these terrible calamities and crimes were carried on with the same earnestness by their successors. The speech of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bourke) showed that he had deeply studied the subject, and that he felt a personal interest in the success of the endeavours now being made to put down the slave trade. The Government would obtain every assistance in these efforts from both sides of the House; and if the hon. Gentleman could feel when he quitted Office that he had struck a real blow at this traffic nothing would give the hon. Gentleman greater pleasure or obtain for him more honour in the country. He was glad to find that the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had taken off a little of the gloom which the some- what exaggerated representations of the hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Han-bury) had been calculated to produce. The efforts made to put down the East African slave trade often ended in disappointment, and such was the determination of the men engaged in it that when they were driven out in one direction they sometimes re-appeared in another. He feared, too, that the first effect of our repressive measures was sometimes to increase the sufferings of these wretched slaves. It was difficult to put down the land traffic, and the slaves who were ready for export were in some way or other generally got off. The Government could, however, obtain constant information as to the extent to which it was going on, and he was glad to know that they would do what they could to stop it. It was cheering to know that the Sultan of Zanzibar had thrown in his lot with us. He was the most civilized of the potentates on that Coast, and there was no reason to doubt that he really wished to put down the traffic. This was a great gain, and a most hopeful event in the history of the slave trade. The traffic could not be entirely stopped by our cruisers, and our only hope of stopping the trade was, by the influence of the Chiefs, to act upon the land traffic. He by no means despaired of getting notions of civilization by means of missionaries and otherwise into the minds of the Native potentates. It might be that a certain amount of this traffic was carried on across the Bed Sea; but it could not be expected that the Khédive would permit our cruisers to enter the Bed Sea in order to put down the traffic. At the same time the Khédive entertained very different views from some of his predecessors on this subject, and he did not believe the assertions sometimes made that he wished to enlarge his territories in order to carry on this trade. He rejoiced to learn that a British Consul had been established at Mozambique, and he was glad to hear the hon. Member (Mr. Bourke) speak so confidently of the assistance lately given by the French. There was, he believed, a very strong feeling in this country in regard to the suppression of this slave traffic; and we had pledged our character and honour as a nation to carry on the work, and no civilized nation had ever undertaken such a task. There could be no doubt about the difficulties that we had to contend with; but we were convinced of the evil, and with English tenacity of purpose, we were determined not to be baffled in our efforts to put it down.

said, he believed that the Khédive was most anxious to put down the slave trade in Egypt, but in the lower part of the Nile a considerable amount of the trade was going on. Much depended on the activity of the Consul General at Cairo, and the appointment of European Vice Consuls at various towns on the Nile would do more than anything else to repress the slave traffic on the Nile. Arab Consuls had no real interest in the extinction of slavery. Her Majesty's Government might effectively and at a moderate cost increase our Consular Establishments by appointing Europeans in the large towns up to the first or second cataract. That would do more to assist the Khédive than anything else. Another circumstance ought to be borne in mind. There was at the present moment a statesman in Egypt who for a long period had been out of office. He referred, of course, to Nubar Pasha. In consequence of his influence with the Khédive the Government of this country now had a more favourable opportunity of putting down the slave trade than had presented itself for many years. In regard to the annexation of portions of Upper Egypt, he knew for a fact that the great difficulty felt by the Khédive was the question as to what was to be done with the slaves in the annexed districts. No doubt the Khédive was extending his dominions; but it was absolutely necessary for him to do so if his country were ever to become great, or even if it were to pay the interest on its debt. Mr. Fowler, the engineer, and his staff were now extending the railway beyond the second cataract, and one of the subjects on which the Khédive entered into the most animated conversations with Mr. Fowler was the treatment of the slaves whom he was determined to liberate in the countries annexed. He believed it was the Khédive's intention to form them into a corps by which the railway could be carried on. How could we hope to put down the slave trade except by bringing the uncivilized parts of Africa into the Kingdom of the Khédive? It was quite impossible to change the opinion of the present generation of Mahomedans on the subject of slavery. They thought our interference as unjust and almost irreligious, and if we diminished the Khédive's prestige among his own people by insisting upon the right of search in his vessels, we should be doing more harm than good. The intention of the Khédive, of his family, and of his Chief Minister was as rapidly as possible to suppress the slave trade and to wean the Mahomedan portion of the population from their love of that form of servitude.

concurred in the remarks of the hon. Member who had just spoken. All persons who had a practical knowledge of the subject agreed that we ought to support the Sultan of Zanzibar in carrying legitimate commerce into the interior of his territory. All our efforts, whether by sea or land, would be almost useless except so far as we could give encouragement to men of enterprize to develop the resources of the interior of Africa in mines, agriculture, and so forth.

said, that this Bill, the incubation of which had taken six weeks, was only printed last Sunday. What was his surprise to find that it was word for word the same as the Bill of last year. It repealed all previous Acts of Parliament providing for the payment of the police out of the Imperial Exchequer; but he could not understand on what principle these contributions were to be made for the future. It appeared to him that everything was to be left to the Treasury. He wished to ask two questions—Why this Bill consisted only of a single clause, and what provisions were to be substituted for those which were repealed?

regretted that the hon. Member was not in his place the other day to hear the explanations he gave on the subject. Heretofore, the Treasury had been restricted from paying a larger proportion than one-fourth towards police expenses. In dealing with the subject, it was necessary to consider whether further legislation was not necessary as to the mode in which the police were paid, and the conditions on which the subsidy should be given. Last year the Government found that they were not in a position to deal with the subject, and a suspensory Bill was passed for one year. On the 27th of May, in the present year, he moved for leave to introduce a Bill which he had prepared in concert with his right hon. Friend (Mr. Cross). It would, however, have led to considerable discussion, and they came to the conclusion that, looking to the state of Public Business, there was no prospect of dealing with the matter satisfactorily this year. He would, therefore, ask the House to continue this suspensory legislation for one year longer, with the intention on the part of the Government of dealing with the subject next year. The Government had proposed—and the House had given its assent by the vote of the other day— that the Treasury should be authorized to contribute an additional fourth towards the pay and clothing of the police.

after this explanation, would not oppose the second reading, on the undertaking that, next year, the Government would propose a definite scheme.

said, the Government would endeavour to deal with the question next year.

moved the omission of the clause, which, he contended, would unjustly tax occupiers in Ireland for the support of lunatics.

said, lunatics were very much on the increase in Ireland. The Americans sent persons home to Ireland as soon as they became insane. England, also, contributed a large increment to lunatics in Ireland. Increased accommodation for lunatics in Ireland was necessary.

moved that the Chairman report Progress.