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Commons Chamber

Volume 249: debated on Friday 15 August 1879

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House Of Commons

Friday, 15th August, 1879.

The House mot at half after One of the clock.

Questions

Public Works Loans (No 2) Bill

Explanation

said, he wished to take notice of a statement that appeared in the news- papers yesterday, which, coming from the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), might cause some misapprehension, if unexplained, with regard to the position in which matters were left by the Public Works Loans Act. The hon. Member for Reading said, in the statement referred to, that matters would be left substantially the same as hitherto, That, however, was not the case. The effect of the Bill as passed had been to empower the Treasury to provide that loans granted at less than 5 per cent were to carry such a rate of interest as would, in the judgment of the Treasury, prevent any loss to the Exchequer. The Treasury would find it their duty to issue a Minute stating what the rates of interest would be, and they would be the same substantially as were provided in the Bill.

thought he had not made any mistake in the matter. What he had ventured to point out was, that all the existing Acts gave the same power to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and the only change made by the Bill was to transfer that power from the Commissioners to the Treasury; but he pointed out that no change would be practically effected this year, inasmuch as one of the Public Works Loans Commissioners—the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. J. G. Hubbard)—stated that all loans for the present year had been practically arranged already, and he understood that these would be excepted under an Amendment adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Therefore, practically, no change would be made until next year, when the Government had promised a Committee on the subject, and to those who objected to the Bill that was so far a satisfactory result.

Cyprus—M Mitzis—Question

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether his attention has been called to a letter in the eighth number of the "Neon Kition" from Mr. Delaval Cobham, Commissioner of Larnaca, in which that gentleman admits that the election of M. Mitzis was cancelled because he was not a Turkish subject, this statement having previously been denied by Sir Garnet Wolseley?

Sir, Mr. Cobham's letter has not been communicated to the Foreign Office; but a Memorial from certain inhabitants of Larnaca, communicated by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) complaining that the election of M. Mitzis as a member of the Legislative Council had been cancelled on the ground that he was not a Turkish subject has been received. The Memorial has been forwarded to the High Commissioner for his remarks thereupon; but his Report has not yet been received.

The Fishery Laws—Question

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When he hopes to complete the inquiries which are being made by Messrs. Buck-land and Walpole relative to the supply of in-shore and deep-sea fish, and if the result of the investigations already concluded is of such a nature as to enable him to issue a new code of regulations whereby the disputes now existing between the line and net boatmen and steam trawlers may in future be obviated; and, further, if he has any information which would tend to confirm or refute the statements of the boat fishermen relative to the destruction of deep-sea spawn by steam trawling?

in reply, said, that the Commissioners of Fisheries had presented their Report; but that, as it had to be printed, some weeks would elapse before the Report would be in the hands of hon. Members. The disputes referred to in the Question as now existing between line and net boatmen and steam trawlers could not be adjusted without further legislation.

The United States—Consular Convention—Question

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the negotiations between the British and United States Governments relative to a Consular Convention have been concluded; if so, if he will be good enough to cause the Correspondence to be placed upon the Table of the House; if the two Governments have agreed upon the details upon which to base the Treaty; and, if he can explain why he has not introduced the Bill which he promised last Session?

Sir, Her Majesty's Government have been unable as yet to conclude a Consular Convention with the United States, and the negotiations have been suspended pending the passing of an Act of Parliament giving the necessary powers to Her Majesty's Government to carry out such a Convention. A Bill has been prepared; but it was not found possible, owing to the press of Business before the House, to introduce it this Session with any prospect of success. I hope it will be done, however, in the ensuing Session.

Treaty Of Berlin—The Greek Frontier—Question

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether his attention has been called to the fact that large bodies of troops have recently been sent by the Turkish Government into Thessaly and Epirus, and especially into the southern parts of those provinces, and that in the latter province they are under the command of Chefket Pasha; and, whether any remonstrance had been made to Her Majesty's Government against such a course, pending the negotiations respecting the Greek Frontier?

Sir, I understand there is some considerable amount of excitement on the Frontier, and that both Governments have thought it necessary to strengthen their forces. Her Majesty's Government has not addressed any communication to either of them.

South Africa—The Zulu War— Mr Archibald Forbes

Question

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he will take into consideration the desirability of extending some mark of favour to Mr. Archibald Forbes, special correspondent of the "Daily News," in recognition of the public services performed by him in being the bearer of the despatches of the successful action at Ulundi, under circumstances of considerable personal hazard, fatigue, and endurance?

Sir, this is, certainly, rather a novel Question. As far as I understand, it is a question whether the Government will extend some mark of favour to Mr. Archibald Forbes for performing services in connection with his duty as a newspaper correspondent. [Sir HENRY HAVELOOK: No, no!] Then I hardly know under what circumstances the Government are called upon to consider the matter. The Question is one which should rather be addressed to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War than to myself.

said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to have misapprehended the purport of his Question. If the right hon. Gentleman would read it, he would see that the claim to a mark of favour was in relation not to Mr. Forbes's services as correspondent, but to a public service performed by him in the conveyance of a despatch.

Criminal Law—Case Of Thomas Perryman;—Question

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, in the case of Thomas Perry-man, now under sentence of penal servitude for life, it is true that he has refused permission to the prisoner's solicitor to see the prisoner for the purpose of obtaining his signature to a Petition to this honourable House in which he alleges his innocence and his grounds for so doing, and in which Petition he sets forth a letter lately received from Australia from the relations of the deceased as to her insane tendency, and generally maintaining the theory of suicide; and, if so, why such permission was refused?

in reply, said, it was quite true that permission was refused to Mr. Elworthy to visit the prisoner in gaol; but Mr. Elworthy was not his solicitor. That gentleman was told that it was quite unnecessary for him to obtain the signature of the prisoner to a Petition, because any Petition signed by the prisoner would be forwarded to the proper quarter. If the prisoner's solicitor visited him at the gaol, he (Mr. Assheton Cross) had not the slightest doubt he would be permitted to see him.

Royal Commissions—Reports And Evidence—Question

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If he would be good enough to state the course of procedure by which the evidence taken before a Royal Commission is reported to Her Majesty; whether, in the case of the Royal Commission to inquire into the constitution, custom, and usages of the London Stock Exchange, the Royal Commissioners, directly or indirectly, informed the Home Department that portions of the evidence of Mr. Cooper, and the entire of the evidence of the right honourable Mr. Goschen, in relation to the promotion and the subsequent winding-up of the Imperial Land Company of Marseilles, has been omitted from the minutes of evidence returned to the Home Office, in order to be laid before Her Majesty; whether the withholding of any part of the evidence is in accordance with the terms of Her Majesty's Commission nominating and appointing the said Royal Commission to inquire into the practices of the London Stock Exchange; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will direct that no such keeping back of any portion of the evidence shall take place with reference to the evidence or other proceedings before the royal Commission to inquire into the cause of Agricultural Depression?

Sir, with regard to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, the course adopted is, when evidence has been taken before a Royal Commission, everything is sent to the Home Office by the Secretary of the Commission. Of course, the evidence is submitted to Her Majesty, and afterwards presented to Parliament. As to the second paragraph, I never heard a word about it till this morning. With reference to the Question as to whether Commissions may strike out evidence in any form or shape, I may refer the hon. Member to his own experience of Committees of this House, where sometimes evidence is given and sometimes omitted. A matter of that kind, I believe, rests entirely with the Commission. For the same reason, it would be very improper for me to make any suggestion to the Chairman of the Commission on Agricultural Depression.

Perhaps, Sir, the House will permit me to offer a few words of explanation on this subject. If I had been in my place yesterday, or had Notice of the Question which was put on the Paper by the hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr. Callan), I should have given such information as I could have given with reference to it. Probably, the Question ought to have been addressed, if addressed at all, to Members of the Commission, two of whom have seats in this House—namely, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Spencer Walpole) and the hon. Member for East Gloucestershire (Mr. J. E. Yorke). I think the Question is a very fair one to ask of them. What happened was this. Some evidence was given before the Commission in which, as I learned afterwards, my name had been used, and statements made which, in my opinion, were perfectly incorrect. Upon that I caused it to be known to Members of the Commission that I thought justice required that an opportunity should be given me for controverting those statements. The evidence was then communicated to me, as it was also to others whose names had been used. I was not called to give evidence before the Commission; but I insisted upon being heard before it, in order that I might controvert the statements which appeared to me to be incorrect. I gave the facts; but my explanations occupied under an hour, and not a couple of days, as was suggested by the hon. Member's Question. After I had given those explanations the Commission decided that the evidence which I hoped and alleged I had controverted should be struck out and not reported. That was done on their responsibility. When I say that the President was a Judge of the land—Lord Penzance—and that the other Members of the Commission were Gentlemen of the highest character, I feel that the hon. Gentleman may be assured that no undue partiality was shown in the matter.

Offensive Prints—Question

asked the Secretary of State for the Home De- partment, Whether his attention has, within the last few weeks, been directed to certain affiches which are exposed everywhere, particularly in the streets of London; and, whether he does not think that the time has arrived when he ought to suppress those affiches, which are opposed to public decency and morality?

Sir, in reference to a reply which I recently gave upon this subject—to the effect that if no notice was taken of these publications they would die out of themselves—I must say I did not mean to say that there was not a limit beyond which these things cannot go. I do not retract anything that I said on a former occasion as to the advisability of prosecution in such cases as this, and it is perfectly well known that if the law is transgressed the offenders are liable to prosecution.

Prorogation Of The Parliament

Message to attend The LORDS COMMISSIONERS:—

The House went;—and a Royal Commission to that purpose having been read, the Royal Assent was given to several Bills.

And afterwards Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord High Chancellor (in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command).

Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.

After which,

My Lords, and Gentlemen,

By virtue of Her Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in Her Majesty's Name, and in obedience to Her Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Saturday the 1st day of November next, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Saturday the 1st day of November next.