asked the Postmaster General, If he can explain why telegrams to the Continent of Europe cost so much more than the total of telegraph charges in the Countries through which they pass, e.g., why it is that while in the British Islands, Prance, and Switzerland, telegrams cost about one halfpenny per per word in each Country, a telegram from England to Switzerland is charged 3½d. per word; whether private Companies are paid for cabling messages across the Channel, and at what rates, or whether the Government possesses any cable across the Channel to Europe; if not, whether, considering the short distance and small cost of such cables, he will establish one so that (as in the case of Ireland) the public may not pay an exorbitant toll to Cable Companies; and, whether he will try to arrange to put International telegrams on a footing more nearly in proportion to International letters, or at least on a scale not higher than the aggregate domestic charge of the Countries through which they pass?

In reply to the hon. Member, I have to state that the charges for foreign telegrams are settled at the International Conferences which take place every five years; and some countries are not will- ing to transmit such telegrams at rates so low as those which they charge for inland telegrams. The charges for inland telegrams in different countries vary in principle as well as in amount; but, to meet the convenience of the public, the charges for foreign telegrams are everywhere based on the same principle, which is that of a word-rate pure and simple. The Post Office has not lost any opportunity of endeavouring to bring about reductions in the charges; and, both at the Conference in Berlin last year and at the previous Conference in London, considerable reductions were made. The charge to Switzerland, I ought to say, is 3½d., not 4d. The Government possesses three cables to the Continent—two to Holland and one to Germany. The cables to France and Belgium are the property of the Submarine Telegraph Company, who possess exclusive rights as regards those countries until the end of the year 1888. The cables of the Government are worked by the Submarine Company under an agreement sanctioned by Parliament which has not yet expired.

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he can state in what particular points the Articles of the Fishery Treaty (1871) are alleged to have been infringed by American and Canadian fishermen; how far the commercial privileges embodied in Articles 30 and 31 have been carried out; and, whether any money award was made to this Country under Article 22 of the Treaty?

The Treaty of 1871 is not in question. The Fishery Articles of that Treaty expired in 1885 (see Parliamentary Paper, United States, No. 3, 1884). Article 30, concerning the Coasting Trade and Transit Duties, has also expired. Arrangements were made in 1873 to carry it out, and, consequentially, Article 31 (see Parliamentary Paper, North America, No. 12, 1873). A sum of $5,500,000 was paid to Her Majesty's Governmeat pursuant to Article 22 of the Treaty of 1871 (see Parliamentary Paper, North America, No. 4, 1878). The present difficulties with the United States turn on the construction of the Convention of 1818, which has been revived by the expiry of the Articles above mentioned of the (Washington) Treaty of 1871.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, What measures he intends adopting for the purpose of bringing about a Commercial Treaty between this Country, the West Indian Colonies, and the United States?

The Papers presented to Parliament last year show the circumstances in which it was then not found practicable to come to any arrangement, and up to this time there has been no change in the conditions of the question.

asked MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If the Government will sanction the expense of supplying Parliamentary Reports of Education, Crime, Pauperism, County Expenditure, and other Returns connected with County Government, also Returns of Army and Navy Estimates, to free libraries and mechanics' institutions?

I have examined carefully into this matter, and, to a considerable extent, I am in sympathy with the object of the hon. Gentleman. I think it must be admitted that it would be to the advantage of the Government establishments that free libraries should be encouraged by a quasi- State recognition, and it is also obvious that it is to the advantage of the State that people should have ready access to official information as supplied by State and Parliamentary literature. The hon. Member will perceive that the Government must draw a broad distinction between free libraries and mechanics' institutions, free libraries being establishments moderate in number and well defined, and mechanics' institutions being of many sorts and also very numerous. As far as free libraries are concerned, what I propose is this—that they should apply to the Treasury for such Parliamentary documents as they may be of opinion will be of advantage to the persons who frequent them; and I will engage next year to bring before the House an Estimate to defray the charge of supplying those documents gratis, and then leave it to the House to decide whether they think the expenditure ought to be incurred or not. The total charge for all Parliamentary Papers incurred by any individual or association who wishes to possess them would be £20 a-year under the present arrangement. The First Lord of the Treasury in the late Conservative Government made an arrangement by which free libraries could be supplied with these Papers at a discount of 25 per cent, which would bring the charge down to £15 a-year for free libraries. If, therefore, the Government were to supply every free library with all Parliamentary literature, the cost would be somewhere about £2,000 a-year. But I imagine that there is a large portion of Parliamentary literature which free libraries would not care to possess, and, therefore, I think it will be right to let them apply to the Treasury for such literature as they may require, and then let the House decide whether the cost should be incurred or not.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether information has reached showing that the people of Nova Scotia are opposed to the confederate form of Government under which they live; whether they have made several attempts to secure more favourable terms from the Home Government; whether their prayers for reform have been refused; whether in consequence they have expressed their desire for Legislative independence; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will grant this request?

Her Majesty's Government received, in June last, a despatch from Lord Lansdowne, enclosing a Resolution which had been recently carried by a majority in the House of Assembly of Nova Scotia, advocating withdrawal from the Dominion of Canada, but no subsequent communication on the subject has been received. Some Correspondence also took place on the subject in 1868, which will be found in a Parliamentary Paper dated June 10, 1868. Her Majesty's Government have no power to alter the terms of the British North America Act, 1867, which was settled with the assistance of delegates from Nova Scotia, and was subsequently approved by the Legislature of that Province. I may add that we have every confidence that the Dominion Parliament will desire to redress, as far as possible, any reasonable grievances of which a Province may complain.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been called to the occurrence last week at the Kingstown "Bird's Nest," in connection with the four children of the Army pensioner M'Greil; and, if the Government will take steps to have the child who is still detained restored to his mother?

I have read an account of the occurrence last week at the institution called the Kingstown "Bird's Nest" referred to in the Question of the hon. Baronet. I am informed that the child mentioned, with the other children, was placed in the institution by his father in June last; and, under such circumstances, the Government have no power to interfere as to his custody.

asked MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether, having reference to the present unsatisfactory condition of the gold currency, Her Majesty's Government propose to take any steps in the matter?

Of course the matter has been under my consideration, but it is a very large and very difficult subject. I have not been long enough at the Exche- quer as yet to be able to give the hon. Baronet a definite answer. I may, however, allow myself to say this much, that if anything is to be done to rehabilitate the gold coinage of the country it must be done at the cost of the State. If that be so, the sums required, although spread over a series of years, will be considerable, and it will be impossible for me finally to decide whether I shall submit a proposal to the House of Commons until I am more fully in possession of what the balance of Revenue and Expenditure for next year is likely to be.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the alterations, as to Civil Service Clerks, in the Playfair Scheme, stated by the Secretary to the Treasury in the late Government, on the 21st June last, to have been, after long consideration, suggested by the Treasury, were proceeded with, and any Treasury Minute made thereon, as promised by him; and, if not, whether the present Government has been able yet to take up the matter; whether he is able now to state when the Report of the Departmental Committee, as to the Civil Service Writers, may be expected; and, whether the Government propose to make or recommend any inquiry into the Civil Service generally?

In answer to the first part of this Question, I have to say that no such Treasury Minute has yet been made; but the matter is at present under consideration. With regard to the second part, I have previously answered that I hope to have a Report from the Committee in a short time. As to the third point, I stated, in answer to the hon. Member for Otley (Mr. Barran), that I could safely promise that a statement would be made upon this matter before the close of the present Session.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What report is made by the Constabulary authorities in Belfast as to the extent to which Catholic workpeople in that town, who lost their employment during the recent riots, have now been restored to it; and, what measures have been adopted by the employers to keep order in their establishments?

asked whether the Constabulary Report referred to the number of Protestants who also had to leave their employment during the periods covered by the late riots in Belfast?

I have no information on the subject of the Protestant workmen, and generally speaking it is impossible for me to give the hon. Gentleman any definite reply upon a matter which is really not under the power of the authorities at all. So far as we are aware—for the matter is not within the official knowledge of the police—in most instances where Catholic workers left their employment during the recent disturbances they have now returned, and things are going on as before the riots. It there are any exceptions to this rule it may confidently be hoped that they will not continue long. I understand that the employers in most of the establishments discharge or threaten with dismissal any persons in their employment who interfere with their fellow-workers.

asked if that applied to the case of the Mayor of Belfast?

I cannot answer that.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What measures have been resolved upon for the increase and redistribution of the Constabulary force in Belfast; and, who is to command the force?

An extra Constabulary force of 400 men remains for the present at Belfast in aid of the local force. A portion will be concentrated as a reserve in a central part of the town. The remainder will be allocated to the several Constabulary barracks. Six houses have been taken by the Government for additional barracks in different localities. The force is under the command of MR. Cullen, Assistant Inspector General, and D.M.

asked if it was intended to submit a Supplementary Estimate for the six houses?

No; the houses are taken at a rent as additional barracks.

asked whether, in view of the fact that during the riots attacks had been made on the navvies returning from we at the Alexandra Dock by the Island men, the right hon. Gentleman would consider the suggestion he (MR. Sexton) made some time ago to the effect that a permanent police station should be placed in that quarter of the town?

That will have to be considered in connection with the permanent arrangements that will have to be made. The arrangements I have mentioned are, of course, only temporary.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Lord Lieutenant has considered a Memorial addressed to His Excellency on the 24th ult. by the Governing Body of the Belfast Royal Hospital, representing that the hospital is entirely supported by voluntary contributions; that no Government grant has ever been made to it; that it relieves the suffering without regard to religion or party; that during the recent riots 369 patients, suffering from gunshot and other wounds and injuries, were received and carefully attended to at a cost to the hospital of £800; that the deficit upon the present year amounts to £1,100; and that the straitened condition of trade allows of no hope that the extra expenditure can be met by additional voluntary contributions; and, whether, as prayed in the Memorial, a Supplementary Estimate will be submitted to the House for a Grant in aid of the Belfast Royal Hospital?

, in reply, said, the Government received and carefully considered the Memorial mentioned by the hon. Member. While, however, they gladly recognized the benefit and assistance derived from the Belfast Royal Hospital, they did not feel themselves in a position to give a favourable reply to the appeal for aid. To do so would not be in accordance with the precedents relating to hospitals generally in the United Kingdom. The only place in which grants of this kind had been made to hospitals was Dublin, and it did not seem at all desirable to extend that principle.

gave Notice that on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Service Estimates he would move that a Supplementary Estimate should be presented as a Vote in aid of the Belfast Royal Hospital.

asked if the right hon. Gentleman was not aware that four or five years ago £1,500 was granted for the purpose of paying the expenses of a doctor who attended a landlord who had been severely injured, and whether the persons that were injured in Belfast were not just as much victims as the landlords were?

Payments to hospitals and payments to doctors are not the same thing.

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any improvement is contemplated in the position of Army Quartermasters?

The Report of the Committee appointed by my Predecessor to consider this question has been received, and I hope to communicate a decision on an early date.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If, at the meeting of the Board of Guardians at Kildysart, county Clare, last week, six eviction notices were read at the suit of Captain Hector Vandeleur, Colonel White, and MR. O'Dea; and, if, after lengthened discussion, a resolution was unanimously adopted, condemnatory of evictions as inimical to the interests of the landlords as well as of the tenants?

asked, if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the appointment of General Buller had the effect of stimulating eviction proceedings in the county Clare?

, in reply, said, that was not at all within his knowledge. The facts were as stated in the Question of the hon. Member for West Clare.

, who had the following Question on the Paper:—To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If it is true that, at the Millstreet Petty Sessions, held on Monday, the 23rd of August, two boys named John Kiely and Cornelius Coweniham, were charged and convicted with having wilfully and maliciously broken the windows of the Protestant Church at Liscahane, near Millstreet; at what o'clock was the outrage said to have been committed; whether the fathers of the above-mentioned youths are labourers in the employment of Jeremiah Hegarty; whether Jeremiah Hegarty is the local agent and factotum of the Landlord Defence Association and the Irish Loyal Protestant Union; and, whether Her Majesty's Government purpose making any further investigations into the causation of the outrage, whether committed by the boys out of pure wantonness, or whether promoted by other parties? said, he wished to correct the last part of the Question by substituting for "other parties" the "Irish Loyal Defence Union."

, in reply, said, the two boys referred to were charged and convicted in the manner stated in the Question of the hon. Member. The offence was committed at half-past 2 o'clock in the afternoon of the 15th of August. There was, as far as he could learn, no association in Ireland bearing the name mentioned in the Question. There was nothing that he knew of in the case to call for further investigation.

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether his attention has been called to an article in The Weekly Dispatch of Sept. 5th, in which it is stated that:—

"As a matter of fact, while the money disappears year after year with the utmost regularity, our Army and Navy remain to this day without a single efficient and serviceable gun between them;"

and, whether, so far as regards the Army, this statement is true, or approximately true?

I am happy to say the statement is neither true, nor approximately true.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the architect to the Commissioners of Asylums for the Poor in Ireland, after his inspection of the Asylum at Monaghan in 1883, recommended to the Board of that Institution several important alterations in the construction of the buildings as necessary for the safety and comfort of the inmates; whether the recommendations of the official in question included the carrying of the several dividing walls of the different departments, which at present terminate at the ceilings, over the roofs, and the reconstruction of some of the ceilings, which are cracked and in danger of falling; whether the carrying of dividing walls over the roof is always insisted on by architects in similar and other public Institutions under Government control in England, as a precaution against the spread of fire; whether the Board of the Monaghan Asylum sanctioned the recommendations referred to, and received tenders for the execution of the works; and, whether they have yet carried out the alterations referred to; and, if not, whether he will explain why, and say whether he will cause them to be proceeded with without further delay?

, in reply, said, he thought there must be some mistake in this matter. The Commissioners stated there was no record in their office of any such Report as that referred to in the Question. However, they would make further inquiries about it; and if they found that the works suggested were considered necessary, steps would be taken to have them carried out.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether he is aware that under Government Resolution, No. 190, dated Bombay, January 12th, 1881, it was ruled that no more medical subordinates would be promoted to honorary commissions unless they had obtained medical diplomas; that three warrant medical officers came to England under this rule, and, after much study and expense, obtained English medical diplomas; and that, on their return to India, the rule was abrogated by Indian Army Circular, Clause 83, paragraph 4, dated July 1884, by the decision that no further promotions would be made to the rank of honorary surgeon; and, whether, considering the circumstances under which they acted, he will take steps to secure their promotion to the honorary commissioned rank under the rule of January 12th 1881?

Prior to July, 1884, a diploma was, as stated in the Question, one, but only one, of the several qualifications requisite for selection for the rank of honorary surgeon. At that date, on a re-organization of the subordinate medical establishment, the selection of warrant officers for the post of honorary surgeon was put an end to on public grounds; but, instead, certain other privileges were conferred on the Department to which the warrant officers belonged. There is, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, no reason for making an exception in the case of the three officers referred to.

asked the Secretary of State for War, What is the reason for the distinction in the rank of the senior non-commissioned officers in battalions of the Regular Army, the Militia, and the Volunteers; and, if, having regard to the great and continuous responsibility devolving upon those deserving soldiers who are attached as Sergeant Instructors to Volunteer Corps, the senior of them could be accorded either warrant rank or substantive rank, as in the Standing Army and Militia?

The reason for the distinction is that the duties required of the senior non-commissioned officers of the permanent staff of Volunteer Corps are less than those required in the Regular Army and Militia. I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given by my Predecessor on March 19 last, in which he fully explained the case. I see no grounds for re-opening the question.

asked the Postmaster General, Whether the correspondence between Grangegeith and Slane, county Meath, has increased threefold since the 16th August; whether this increase is due to the fact that the people there have appointed a postman, at their own expense, who carries their letters since that date; and, whether, owing to this increase, he will have a post office established at Grangegeith forthwith?

In answer to the hon. Member I have to state that the increase since the 16th August last in the number of letters between the villages of Slane and Grangegeith, which are 3½ miles apart, has been so rapid and remarkable that I have caused special inquiry to be made, in order to ascertain what may account for this sudden growth. When the Returns were taken in July there were only 34 letters a week, and now the number has more than doubled, a most unusual occurrence. It will be necessary to see whether such an unprecedented growth as nearly 200 per cent in three weeks is likely to be maintained before considering the matter further. At present the inhabitants send a private messenger to Slane daily for letters.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to a Resolution recently passed by the Kinsale Board of Guardians, requesting Parliament to vote a sum in remuneration of clerks of unions and rate collectors for services under the Franchise Act; and, whether the Government will make some provision this year for the claims of these officials to such remuneration?

, in reply, said, he had to thank the hon. Member for having sent him a copy of the resolution referred to in the Question; and a copy of a similar resolution, he believed, had also been received by the Local Government Board. He had already answered more than one Question on this subject; and he was afraid that he was unable to give any additional information.

Are we to understand, then, that this is the last word the Government will say on the question, either now or in the future?

That will depend upon whether any more Questions are asked.

I wished to know whether it is intended next year to take this question into consideration?

I have already explained that a special grant was made in this matter last year on account of the special circumstances of that year's registration. If any reason is shown to the Government to take up the question again, of course that will be considered next year.

asked MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Her Majesty's Go- vernment propose to take any action on the Report of the House of Commons Committee of 1884, which unanimously recommended the appointment of a Minister of Education?

I cannot say that the matter alluded to in the Question of the hon. Member has yet come under the notice of the Government, nor can I hold out any hope that it is likely to come very soon under our notice. Speaking as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I will not conceal from the hon. Member that I have a strong suspicion that the proposal which he appears to advocate would involve an increased charge upon the public revenues; and every alteration, or reform, or modification of a Department which would involve an increased charge possesses in my eyes an incurable defect.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, If the gain or loss to the State arising from the difference between the local rate of exchange and the rate at which the crews of Her Majesty's ships are paid, when a silver currency is used, is shown in any statement presented to Parliament; and, if it is not, whether it can be shown in future?

The present arrangement with regard to the issue of dollars and rupees is that the rate is fixed annually on the average price of standard silver in the London Market during the previous year. This system was arranged between the Treasury and the Departments concerned some years ago. It is very difficult to form any idea as to the results to the State of these fluctuations in the rate of exchange. I have, however, looked at the profit and loss account of the Hong Kong Treasury Cheat, and I find that on the 10 years ending March 31, 1885, this account shows a dead loss of more than £11,000, arising from Naval, Military, and Civil Services taken together. The total gain or loss to the State arising from payments it has to make to soldiers, sailors, and civilians outside the United Kingdom is shown in the annual Trea- sury Chest account under the head of profit and loss. The result of the 10 years ending March 31, 1885, was a net profit of somewhat over £8,000, which has been paid into the Exchequer. The profit and loss accounts at the different stations are not published separately.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether certain placards, calling on the people in the neighbourhood of Woodford to come and save the harvest belonging to the evicted tenants and others who were arrested during the recent evictions, were torn down by the police; what authority the police had for so doing; and, will they be prevented from doing so in the future?

The placards referred to were removed by the police on the grounds, as the District Inspector reports, that, owing to the lawless demeanour displayed by the people at Woodford at the recent evictions in that neighbourhood and the excitement still prevailing, the police considered the placards of a highly inflammatory nature. Having seen and read one of them, I am of opinion that, not merely were they highly inflammatory, but that they had a direct tendency to lead to a breach of the public peace, and that the police were perfectly justified in their action.

asked, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would read the inflammatory language to the House?

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Dr. D'Alton, of Branmore, was assaulted on Sunday 30th ultimo, by Constable Rooney; whether the police prosecuted Dr. D'Alton; whether the Bench dismissed the case against Dr. D'Alton, the presiding magistrate remarking that the police seemed to have a "set" on Dr. D'Alton; whether Dr. D'Alton is still under medical treatment, and in very serious danger; and, what action has been taken by the authorities to bring Rooney to justice?

There is a mistake as to dates, and there is some confusion as to facts, in the Question of the hon. Member. The police took proceedings against Dr. D'Alton to compel him to find sureties to keep the peace and to recover two penalties for drunkenness on the 4th of August last. The former of these proceedings was dismissed on technical grounds, and one of the latter was dismissed without prejudice and the other adjourned for a fortnight on the application of the defendant; and Mr. Lyster, the Resident Magistrate, stated on that occasion that there seemed to be a set on Dr. D'Alton. This observation appears, however, only to refer to the adjourned case of drunkenness, which seemed to the Magistrate to be trivial in its character. The first part of the Question probably refers to a transaction that occurred on the 28th of August, which is to be investigated at Petty Sessions on the 15th instant, and pending these proceedings it would be inexpedient to make any statement on the subject.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, What further sums are available for the construction of piers and harbours in Ireland under the Act 46 and 47 Vic. c. 26, from the following sources—namely, the unexpended balance out of the £20,000 allocated by the Board of Public works for expenses; the difference between the estimated cost of the harbour works undertaken, and the actual sum expended thereon; and the interest on the balances remaining in the hands of the Treasury out of the £250,000 voted by Parliament for piers and harbours, which interest a former Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, the honourable Member for the Bodmin Division of Cornwall, promised would be added to the Piers and Harbours Fund?

I am afraid it is impossible to give any very definite reply to this Question. The £250,000 may be divided into three portions. First, £20,000 reserved for expenses; out of this some £5,000 or £6,000 may be expected to be saved. Secondly, £203,000 allotted as free grants; looking to the uncertainty which always attaches to sea works it would not be safe to count on any saving here. Thirdly, £27,000 granted on loan; this amount will be available hereafter when the loans have been repaid. As regards allowing interest on the undrawn balance of the fund, I do not find that any distinct promise was given; but in any case, as the hon. Member knows, legislation would be necessary.

asked the Postmaster General, Whether his attention has been called to a memorial from the Town and Harbour Commissioners of Kinsale, dated 17th November 1885, calling attention to the necessity for increased postal facilities for their town; and, whether he will take steps to meet the postal wants of a town which constitutes so important a military and fishing station?

The Department has for a long time been in negotiation with the Cork and Bandon Railway Company for certain improvements on the lines of that Company; but I fear it will not be practicable to obtain the trains on the Kinsale branch which would be necessary to give effect to the wishes expressed by the Town and Harbour Commissioners. I will, however, see whether the local arrangements cannot be somewhat improved, so that a delivery of the letters may take place more quickly after the arrival of the letter bags.

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is the fact that, although the Customs Estimates include an item for the Salaries of sixty-nine Surveyors for the Port of London, the number actually employed since the 1st day of January has not exceeded sixty-two; and, whether it is the intention of the Board of Customs to fill up the existing vacancies?

The number of Customs Surveyors for the Port of London was 69, and salaries for that number were included in the Estimates. But early in this year the Customs Commissioners instituted an inquiry for the purpose of ascertaining whether a lesser number of Surveyors would not suffice for the duties to be performed. The Report of that inquiry was received in March last, and the result of it would be that the number of Surveyors would be reduced to 60, at which number they now actually stood. While the inquiry was taking place it was not thought prudent or possible to reduce the number of Surveyors. Of course, the saving to the Exchequer would be the difference between 69 and 60 Surveyors, and an account would be rendered to the Exchequer in due course.

asked, whether the Customs Vote would be reduced in consequence?

I own that at first I was inclined to ask the hon. Member to move the reduction of the Vote, to which I should have assented; but I think, on the whole, the explanation of the Commissioners is a satisfactory one, and as there will be no loss to the Exchequer I will ask the hon. Member to be satisfied with the explanation I have given.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will consider the advisability of having the duties of Inspectors under the Explosives Act performed in future by the Royal Irish Constabulary, instead of by persons paid out of the Rates for the Relief of the Poor, and whose appointments are made and salaries fixed by the Magistrates at Petty Sessions?

This is a matter which it is within the power of the Local Authorities to deal with. They can, if they see fit, appoint members of the Constabulary to act as Inspectors under the Explosives Act, and thus relieve the rates. An hon. MEMBER asked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the Boards of Guardians had made repeated representations to the Local Government Board in reference to this matter, and that those representations were unattended to. The magistrates comprised the Local Authorities, and the Boards of Guardians appeared to have no authority in the matter whatever?

said, the Government had done all they could in the matter. Some time ago a Circular was issued to the Local Authorities, pointing out that they had power to appoint members of the Royal Irish Constabulary as Inspectors. Inquiry would be made as to how far the recommendations had been carried out.

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is a fact that the British Troops quartered at Assouan are in mud huts, on the site of an Arab graveyard, in the midst of a district where dust storms are prevalent; whether there is any knowledge of the average temperature in these huts during the day in the summer months; whether the water used by the Troops for drinking purposes is so thick with mud that it has to be partially clarified by the use of alum; if any filters have been supplied for the use of the Force at Assouan; what is the number of Troops stationed at Assouan, and the proportion of them who were, by last returns, suffering from enteric fever, dysentery, and heat apoplexy; for how long has any portion of this Force been there continuously; and, when is it proposed to relieve these Troops?

The troops at Assouan are quartered in huts with mud walls, which is probably the best material of which huts could be composed, on a hill to the southwest of Assouan. There is an old Mahomedan cemetery at a considerable distance from the lines. The temperature between April and June has ranged from 100 degrees F. to 122 degrees F. in the huts. All Nile water is, I am informed, impure from suspended matter which is got rid of by the use of alum and strainers. The troops have filters, and, as far as practicable, the water for drinking purposes is boiled before being used. The number of troops at Assouan on August 20 was 1,690, and nine cases of enteric fever and five of dysentery remained in hospital on that date. I am unable to say how long any portion of this force has been there continuously. The disposition of the troops in Egypt rests with the General Officer commanding. It is understood that he proposes to relieve shortly those troops that have been at Assouan during the summer by fresh troops from Cairo.

asked the Postmaster General, Whether his attention has been drawn to the inadequate telegraph accommodation in the Upton Park district of the borough of West Ham; and, whether, pursuant to the petition forwarded to the Post Office by the inhabitants on the 25th of June last, he will provide additional facilities?

In reply to the hon. Member I have the pleasure to say that instructions were given some days ago for the telegraph to be extended to Upton Park in accordance with the wishes of the Memorialists.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he can see his way to any alteration in the summer clothing and helmets of the Metropolitan Police Force, so as to make that outfit more suitable than it is at present for warm weather?

The question of any alteration in the summer clothing of the Metropolitan Police has not been brought under my consideration; but I am informed that the Chief Commissioner is in favour of the present system of clothing, thinking that in our variable climate there is more danger from wet and cold than from excessive heat. However, any suggestion that the Police Authorities may have to make will receive my best attention.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, What steps the Metropolitan Board of works are taking to remedy the nuisance arising from the pollution of the River Thames by the main drainage outfalls?

In answer to my hon. Friend I have to say that it would be impossible for me in an answer to detail the plans and scientific processes by which the Metropolitan Board have expressed their intention of disposing of the sewage without nuisance to the Thames. If the hon. Member will call on me at the Home Office I will show them to him—they are very voluminous. The views of the Home Office were communicated to the Board in May last; but the Board did not entirely accept those views, but said that they were fully persuaded that the measures which they did propose to adopt would be found sufficient for the prevention of any pollution of the river water by the London sewage, and the Board have since informed me that designs for permanent works for the treatment of the sewage at Barking Creek have been prepared and are being printed with a view to obtain tenders for the execution of the necessary works.

asked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether he will present to the House, at the commencement of next Session, a Return of the schemes submitted to the Education Department by the Charity Commissioners, and not dealt with by that Department before the 1st of January 1886, and of the schemes submitted to that Department by the Charity Commissioners under the said Acts during the year 1886, and subsequently up to the date of the Return, the Return to give the dates at which each scheme was sent to, approved by the Department or otherwise dealt with, and the date of Her Ma- jesty's approbation (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 135, of Session 1886)?

There will be no objection on the part of the Education Department to make such a Return at the commencement of next Session if the hon. Member will then move for it.

asked the Secretary of State for War, If he has any objection to allow a tunic manufactured at Limerick, and another at the Clothing Establishment, Pimlico, with their prices attached, to be left, for the convenience of inspection by Members, in one of the Committee Rooms; and, whether, taking into consideration the distress in the Metropolis last winter, and its possible recurrence, he will allow the Clothing Establishment at Pimlico to remain at its full strength?

I do not think a Committee Room of the House is a suitable place for exhibiting tunics; but any Member wishing to inspect garments will receive every attention from the Director of Clothing at the Royal Army Clothing Factory, where he will be able to see tunics manufactured at both establishments. The strength of the clothing establishment must vary according to the requirements of the Service, the increase or decrease of the number of employés being regulated by the amount of work to be done.

asked, whether, in view of the fact that the manufacture of Army clothing in the Pimlico Factory entailed the loss of several thousand pounds a year to the country, the hon. Gentleman would consider the desirability of limiting the production of that extensive factory?

said, he was afraid he could not answer the Question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick, because he was not able to accept the premisses that the extravagance was as general as was represented by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, in the agreement with China in reference to Burmah, trade in opium between Burmah and China is mutually prohibited?

The agreement contains no stipulation in regard to opium.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether, in view of the disturbed state of Europe, the Government will reconsider the question of reducing the establishment in Her Majesty's Dockyards by the proposed dismissal of some hundreds of excellent workmen, many of them of long service, and, if possible, find them continued employment at useful work, which will increase the efficiency of our Naval defences?

No orders have been given for any large discharges of workmen from the Dockyards; but the number of men employed in the Yards must be arranged in accordance with the amount of work to be executed and the money which has been voted. I am anxious to expedite the completion of the work now going on in our Dockyards, and to obtain a rapid and economical output; but I am satisfied this can better be done by improved methods of administration than by redundant establishments.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been drawn to resolutions passed by a majority of the Boards of Governors of District Asylums in Ireland, in favour of the claims of the asylum officials and attendants for an increase of salary and superannuation allowance; and, whether the Government intend to take any stops in the matter this year?

, in reply, said, he was informed that a large number of resolutions had been received in reference to this matter. He had not yet had time to give much attention to them. He was not aware of any sufficient reason for taking the steps suggested in the Question with reference to the salaries of officials employed in lunatic asylums in Ireland. Individual cases brought before the Government by the Boards of Governors would be, however, duly considered. Cases of superannuation follow the Civil Service Rules.

asked the Postmaster General, If his attention has been called to the fact that, under existing postal arrangements, most Continental letters are carried at a less cost than is the case with letters posted from this country; whether he is aware that a letter from Russia is carried to any place within the Postal Union for seven kopecks, or less than 1¾d., and from Austria for ten kreutzers, or less than 2d., as against 2½d. if posted from the United Kingdom; whether any compensation is obtained in settling accounts; and, whether steps will be taken to obtain for this Country a more favourable arrangement?

The postage to and from countries which, like Great Britain, Russia, and Austria, belong to the Postal Union is fixed by the International Convention in French currency. The single letter rate is 25 centimes; but the Convention allows of fractional variations, upwards or downwards, to meet the case of countries which have not the franc for their monetary unit. The equivalent of 25 centimes in British currency is a fraction under 2½d., which is recognized by the Treaty as the English equivalent. The sums of seven kopecks and 10 kreutzer are the sums admitted under Treaty as the Russian and Austrian equivalents for 25 centimes. As, under the Postal Union system, every country keeps the whole postage collected by it, the question of compensation in settling accounts does not arise. The present arrange- ments, laid down by the Postal Congress, work on the whole satisfactorily, and it is not proposed to alter them.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether mass meetings of landholders in the Madras Presidency have recently been held to protest against the action of the Government of Madras in demanding as arrears of land tax several lacs of rupees remitted in regular course by the Tanjore district authorities; whether the Madras Government has made these demands on the confidential report of their special Commissioner, MR. H. S. Thomas, representing that remissions had been made owing to misrepresentations by district officials; whether numerous officials have, in consequence of this report, been dismissed the service without trial, and otherwise punished; whether the landlords have publicly challenged the accuracy of the secret report of Mr. Thomas; whether, since the present senior member of the Madras Board of Revenue, the present Chief Secretary to the Government of Madras, and the present Revenue Secretary to the Madras Government, have each in succession been of late years Principal Collector at Tanjore, and responsible for the district administration, he will explain how such wholesale corruption, as alleged by MR. Thomas, could have existed; and, whether he will order further inquiry to be made?

In March, 1885, the collector of Tanjore reported to the Madras Government that owing to heavy rains and floods in October, November, and December, 1884, it would be necessary to remit land revenue to the extent of nearly seven lakhs of rupees. Before sanctioning the proposed remission the Madras Government sent MR. Thomas, senior member of the Board of Revenue, to make a personal inquiry. His Report left no doubt that there was a widespread conspiracy among the officials of the district to defraud the Government, and that little more than half the remission proposed could justly be claimed. Numerous officials, whose conduct had been personally inquired into by MR. Thomas, were dismissed or otherwise punished; and such remissions of land revenue as were recommended by him were alone sanctioned. The action of the Madras Government has been approved by the Secretary of State in Council. Her Majesty's Government have no information of the holding of mass meetings by the landowners, and of their having challenged the accuracy of Mr. Thomas's Report. The three officials, of whom Mr. Thomas is the first, alluded to in the fifth paragraph of the Question, ceased to be collectors of Tanjore in the years 1878, 1881, and 1883, respectively. The frauds reported by Mr. Thomas took place at the end of 1884 and beginning of 1885, and could not, therefore, have been discovered by them. The matter requires, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, very careful inquiry, which has already been ordered.

asked the Secretary of State for War, If he can state what quantity of solid-drawn cartridges there are in store; and, whether there is not fear that, in case of war, it would be necessary largely to make use of the Boxer Cartridges which have been manufactured since they were condemned on account of failure in the Soudan War?

On public grounds I entertain a strong objection to giving the information asked for; but I can assure the hon. Member that there is no fear of the supply of solid-drawn cartridges being deficient in case of war.

inquired whether it was a fact that the Boxer cartridges had been manufactured in large quantities since they had been condemned?

said, it was a fact that those cartridges had been manufactured, and issued, for practice purposes, to Volunteer corps.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to Culdaff Pier, If he will state upon what information he stated that the Piers and Harbours Commissioners had approved of the plan of the Board of works; and, whether he would ascertain what the opinion of the Inspectors of Fisheries is as to the extension of the pier?

, in reply, said, that the hon. Member was under some misapprehension with regard to this matter; but if he would refer him further to the points complained of he would inquire into them.

intimated that he would ask a further Question of the Secretary to the Treasury on the same subject.

asked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Report of the Departmental Committee on Intermediate and Higher Education in Wales, that,

"according to calculations made after the Census of 1871, out of a population of 1,426,514 in Wales and Monmouthshire, no less than 1,006,100 habitually speak Welsh;"

and, whether, in view of the distinctive national characteristics of Wales, he is willing to reconsider his decision not to publish a separate annual Report on Elementary Education in Wales, in a form and at a price which would make it available to those connected with and interested in the progress of Welsh Education?

I am aware of the statement referred to in the first part of the Question. The point raised shall receive consideration; but for the reasons given in my reply on the 6th instant, I am not at present prepared to disturb the arrangement deliberately made by the right hon. Member for Sheffield (MR. Mundella), which has only been in force two years, and has been found to work satisfactorily. The hon. Member will observe that the general Report for 1886–7 will, as a matter of course, contain a Report on Wales, and I will arrange to have a number of copies issued separately in a form that shall be more generally accessible to those interested in Welsh education.

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, To state, as far as he can do so without detriment to the public service, the latest information received in regard to the position of Prince Alexander in Bulgaria, and the nature of any communications that have passed between the Great Powers as to the future of Bulgaria, as well as the position which has been taken up by Her Majesty's Government on that subject?

The position of Prince Alexander is that he has abdicated his Throne, and the proceedings prescribed by the Treaty of Berlin with reference to the election of a Prince of Bulgaria will naturally follow. They are—a free Election by the Assembly, the confirmation by the Sublime Porte, and the assent of the Treaty Powers. While the action following upon the late events in Bulgaria is in so early a stage, I believe that the House will approve of my excusing myself from entering upon the communications between the Great Powers. Such a course at the present time could hardly fail to embarrass Her Majesty's Government, and to diminish its beneficial influence. I am permitted, however, to say that Her Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that the action of any of the Powers will be inconsistent with their Treaty engagements.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Board of Guardians of the Donaghmore Union, before its dissolution, adopted thirteen schemes under the Labourers Act; and, what the Government propose to do, in order that the proceedings already completed may not prove abortive?

The Donaghmore Guardians adopted the 13 schemes under the Labourers Act at the beginning of last April; but they do not appear to have exerted them- selves to proceed with, them promptly, so that they might have been concluded before the dissolution of the Board, as the petitions of the Sanitary Authority and the necessary accompanying documents were not lodged with the Local Government Board until the 21st of August. The Local Government Board are taking the opinion of their legal adviser as to the best course to pursue under the circumstances.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he will lay upon the Table the Report of Admiral Luard's Committee on the "Education of the Junior Executive Officers of the Navy;" and, whether a certain number of copies can be supplied for the use of Members who may desire to possess the same?

Yes, Sir; copies of the Report will be laid on the Table.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, If he can afford any authentic information respecting the character and probable extent of the recent discoveries of gold in Australia?

My hon. Friend is referring, no doubt, to the gold field discovered in Western Australia. The Governor has proclaimed the district between 126 degrees and 129 degrees east and 16 degrees and 19·30 degrees south as a gold district, and an Act has been passed for its management similar to the Queensland Act. According to our latest information (May 21), the Kimberley gold field, as it is called, continues to make progress. More than 1,000 ounces of gold have come down to Derby or Cambridge Gulf. The number of miners at present on the field is 600 or 700. The rapidity of the rush is checked by the fact that the gold field must be approached by a difficult tropical land journey of over 300 miles, and that the miners must be provided with horses and stores, and must, therefore, be men of some capital.

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, in come Volunteer Corps, non-commissioned officers and privates are paid when in camp; whether the capitation grant is applicable to such purposes; and, whether some steps will be taken to put a stop to this practice if it is not in accordance with the Volunteer Regulation?

The Returns show, as far as they have been examined, that in some Volunteer corps the men receive pay when in camp. It was not the intention that the capitation grant should be applied to this Service, and it does not follow that it is, as the corps which adopt the practice show generally an expenditure in excess of the grant. There is no regulation to prevent officers supplementing the capitation grant out of their own pockets or by subscriptions. I may add that a special allowance is granted to cover the general expense which Volunteer corps are necessarily subject to in the formation of camps.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the Government would support a Bill extending the authority of trustees to invest in Indian Guaranteed Railway Shares?

said, the Question should be addressed to the Attorney General.

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade, Whether any notice has been taken by the Government of the competition for the improvement of safety Railway couplings, held at Nine Elms goods yard in the spring of this year; and, whether they will cause any inquiry to be made into the results that were obtained?

Some of the Inspecting Officers attended the competition referred to by the hon. Member; but the Board of Trade have expressed no opinion upon the results, not wishing to assume a responsibility which must necessarily rest upon those who have the control and management of railways. The result of the competition can, no doubt, be obtained from the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether Her Majesty's Government has received any representations from the Government of India with reference to the proposed transfer of the seat of Government from Calcutta to Simla, and whether any statement can be made to allay the apprehension created in India by the rumour that the Finance Commission is about to recommend fixing upon Simla as the seat of Government; whether Parliament will be consulted before any definite decision is come to on this matter; and, whether, in case of the transfer of Government to a salubrious spot in the hills, when the unhealthiness and discomfort of life is no greater than in any British town, he will take care that the salaries of the entire official staff becoming resident at Simla shall be reduced and assimilated to that of English officials, for the benefit of the Indian taxpayer?

No proposal has been made by the Government of India to transfer the seat of Government from Calcutta to Simla. I hope this statement will allay the apprehension in India referred to in the Question. Should such a proposal as that of changing the seat of Government in India be ever made, I have no doubt that Parliament would have ample opportunities of expressing its opinion before any definite decisiou was come to. The Secretary of State will defer the consideration of the necessity of a revision of official salaries until some necessity giving rise to such necessity has arisen.

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any intelligence has been received at the Foreign Office relative to the alleged arrest of Mr. George Farren, J.P., of Carnarvon, and his party, on board the yacht Lady Bessie, by the French authorities, off the coast of Brittany?

The Foreign Office have received no information or complaint upon the subject referred to.

asked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether he is aware that substantial bail has been offered on behalf of the Woodford prisoners; and, whether, having regard to the present peaceable condition of the district, he will instruct the Crown Solicitor of Galway to take bail for the appearance of the prisoners at trial?

It is the Court of Petty Sessions or the Supreme Court, not the Crown Solicitor, that makes an order allowing a prisoner to be discharged on bail; but it is usual, when such an application is made, for the Crown Solicitor to consent or to oppose. The charge against the Woodford prisoners is a very serious one; and the Crown, I fear, will be obliged to oppose any application on the part of the prisoners for bail.

asked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether his attention has been called to a Resolution, unanimously adopted at a recent Conference of Guardians, that—

"The Metropolitan Unions are inadequately represented on the Asylums Board, and that fuller and more satisfactory accounts should be published by the Board of its receipts and payments;"

and, whether he proposes to take any steps to give effect to this Resolution?

With regard to the representation of the Metropolitan Union on the Asylums Board, an order was issued last week increasing the number of elected managers by nine. Information as to the expenditure of the Asylums Board is already furnished by the managers to the Guardians; and, prior to each half-yearly audit, the ledger accounts of the managers are open to the inspection of any ratepayer or owner of property in the Metropolis. If any suggestion specifying precisely what additional accounts are desired is submitted to me on behalf of the Conference alluded to, it will receive my consideration.

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether, seeing that he has promised a day for the consideration of a Bill to relieve the poor tenantry of Ireland, he will also give his favourable consideration, during the present Session of Parliament, to the Bill which has been introduced to relieve the poor ratepayers of London?

I am very much interested and greatly impressed by the close analogy which the hon. Member draws between the condition of the tenantry of Ireland and the condition of the poor ratepayers of London; and I have no doubt that the analogy will afford a very valuable argument in the debate on the Land Bill when it comes on. But, having admitted this, I see no occasion to depart from the position taken up by the Government, either to initiate themselves, or to encourage on the part of private Members, legislation during the present Session.

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he will refer to the Ordnance Committee with Special Associate Members, the following Questions:—What was the calculated bursting strain; what was the actual calculated strain under the charge with which the gun burst, in tons per square inch, for each of the guns that burst on board H.M.S, Active, Thunderer, and Collingwood; whether "jamming" of the shot, in consequence of the increasing twist of the rifling, be sufficient to account for the bursting of each of these guns; and, whether he will report the answers to these questions to the House?

I will take care that the information which he is desirous of obtaining shall be furnished to the hon. Member.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he will grant to Naval Schoolmasters, on completion of their period of service, the same scale of pensions that other petty officers in Her Majesty's Navy now receive?

The rates of pension for naval schoolmasters were recently improved, though they were not actually assimilated in all respects to those in force for chief petty and petty officers. The Order in Council of the 3rd of August last removes the limit that was placed on schoolmasters' pensions, and extends to men of over 20 years' service the same rate for each year served as is awarded to chief and petty officers.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If Mr. J. J. Maguire, of the town of Cavan, applied to the Surveyor at Enniskillen for repayment of overcharge in Income Tax out of the lands of Edenagee, County Fermanagh; if said Surveyor informed him that the papers relating thereto were in the office in Dublin; if he has written repeatedly to the Commissioners there, without receiving any reply; and, if the Commissioners will be instructed to give due attention to the matter?

, in reply, said, that there was some misunderstanding in this case, owing, firstly, to a mistake in the addresses of the letters, and, secondly, to a confusion between two persons who were concerned. The memorial on the subject of Mr. Maguire's complaint was before Somerset House, and would be duly dealt with. As to the statement that Mr. Maguire had not received replies to his letters, he was informed that every communication he sent had been answered.

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether, considering the importance of the Vote for the Royal Irish Constabulary, the Government would undertake that it should come on at a reasonable hour of the evening, or at the commencement of a Sitting?

said, that the Government agreed with the hon. Member as to the importance of the Royal Irish Constabulary Vote, and thought that the Vote ought to be taken at a time which would be convenient to the House; and, therefore, they would undertake that it should come on at the commencement of a Sitting; but as to the other Votes they were desirous of proceeding with the Estimates, as far as possible, in the order in which they had been placed before the House.

said, that in consequence of the answer he would not that evening proceed with his Motion for an official inquiry into the conduct of the magistrates and police in Derry.

rose to move—

"That the scale fixed by the Local Government Board for the cost of the rations of the officers of the Metropolitan Unions, repayable out of the common fund, is grossly inadequate, not in accordance with the intention of the Legislature, and unfair to the poorer districts; and that this House is of opinion that the immediate revision of the scale is a matter of pressing urgency;"

when—

I must point out to the hon. Member that he has introduced a Bill, which is now standing on the Paper for a second reading, which contains a distinct reference to the subject-matter of the present Motion; and, as that Bill is to be brought on upon a future day, the hon. Member would not be in Order in moving his Resolution now, as he would be anticipating the discussion upon the Bill.

May I point out that the Bill which I propose to bring forward is intended to bringabout an alteration in the law, while the grievance complained of in the Resolution is that the Local Government Board do not carry out the existing law. I only wish to insist upon one of the most ancient principles of the Constitution—that the consideration of grievances should precede Supply.

It is not a question of grievance preceding Supply; but it is a question of the hon. Member infringing an Order of the House.

May I ask you, Sir, if I should be in Order in making some remarks on the special subject I have referred to?

The hon. Member would not be in Order in anticipating the discussion upon his Bill.

I rise to move the Resolution of which I gave Notice early in the evening, and which has reference to the case of the Barbavilla conspiracy to murder. We are in a position to prove that the persons now undergoing penal servitude for that conspiracy to murder have been unjustly convicted, and should be released.

I must call the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that the Resolution which he proposes to move is not pertinent to any of the Estimates before the House. The salaries of the Judges who administer justice in Ireland are not included in these Estimates; and the conduct of the Sheriff, or of any officer whose salary is embraced in the Estimates, is not impugned by the hon. Member. I understand that the hon. Member proposes to impugn the conduct of the late Lord Lieutenant, and the salary of the late Lord Lieutenant is not in question. I am bound by the Standing Order, which says that no question shall be raised as a Motion, except such as appertain to the Estimates to be taken in Supply.

What I desire to call attention to is the action of the Lord Lieutenant in refusing an inquiry. The administration of justice in Ireland has thereby been impaired. We are ready to produce the new evidence which has been forthcoming since the trials in support of the allegations which have been made as to the innocence of the prisoners.

The Lord Lieutenant's salary is not upon these Estimates, and I do not see how the object of the hon. Member can be attained without infringing the Standing Order.

On the point of Order I would respectfully submit that the salaries of the Lord Lieutenant and of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who represents the Lord Lieutenant in this House, are dealt with in the Estimates. The Lord Lieutenant is responsible for the prerogative of mercy in Ireland; and I contend that the Motion of my hon. Friend is, therefore, pertinent to the Estimates, because it complains that the prerogative has not been exercised in the Barbavilla case.

The hon. Member proposes to discuss a general subject. Last year I gave a ruling which, I think, completely covers the point now raised. Mr. Hopwood, who was then a Member of the House, proposed, on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply upon the Civil Service Estimates, to move a Resolution on the subject of appeals in criminal cases. That may have seemed to deal, to a certain extent, with the Estimates then before the House; but I ruled that it was a general question, and that, as it did not deal with any special Estimate proposed to be taken, it did not come within the Standing Order that any Resolution moved must appertain to the Estimates before the House.

, in rising to move—

"That this House is of opinion that it is expedient that every school conducted in suitable premises, with an attendance of not less than thirty scholars, under a duly certified teacher or teachers, and complying with the other provisions of the Code, and favourably reported on by Her Majesty's Inspector as being efficiently taught, shall be entitled to a share in the annual Parliamentary Grant for Public Education,"

said, that at the time Board schools were first introduced it was intended that they should only supplement voluntary schools where the latter did not meet the necessities of the districts; but in the small country places, where the School Boards were not so enlightened as in, for instance, London or Liverpool, the Boards refused to give their consent to the building of new voluntary schools, and ignored the claims of the denominationalists. The House ought to come to the rescue of the voluntary schools, and prevent small Boards, such as those he had referred to, refusing their consent. If the Motion were adopted, he contended that no harm would be done to the cause of popular education. The grievances which the people complained of would be removed, and the schools which were fulfilling all the conditions of the Code would be sharing in the grant for public elementary education. Since the Education Act came into force no fewer than 48 of these voluntary schools had been suppressed by a powerful minority, and £6,000,000 sunk in aid of the cause of education was practically lost. His Resolution was intended to rescue the denominational schools, and, at the same time, to relieve the Vice President of the Council of much labour connected with all schools which complained of the action of the Board.

said, he was inclined to agree with a great deal of what had fallen from the hon Member. The House might not be aware that the Motion stated exactly the practice of the Department which was followed in districts not under School Boards; but he understood the chief objection of the hon. Member to apply to cases within a School Board district, and to the fact that voluntary schools were not allowed to earn grants in a district where a Board school had been once set up. In considering this point it was necessary to bear in mind that a School Board was not started unless there was a deficiency of voluntary work. A School Board was only called into action when they could not obtain a voluntary school in a district to supply insufficiency of school accommodation. Upon failure of voluntary action the Department had no option but to fall back on the ratepayers, and insist on their finding school accommodation. Directly a School Board was started it had certain powers vested in it by the Act of Parliament; it was bound to find sufficient accommodation in the district; and, further, if at any subsequent time sufficient accommodation was wanting, it was bound to provide it. The Education Department was bound to see that sufficient accommodation was provided, and the School Board were bound by the Act of 1870 to provide it. Supposing that the managers of a voluntary school came forward and said that they desired to start a voluntary school within a School Board district, it was the duty of the Department first to ascertain whether there was or was not sufficient suitable accommodation in the district; and if there was sufficient the Department would not allow a grant to the voluntary school. If they did, it would be hardly fair by the ratepayers who had had to contribute to the School Board, and who, in fact, had created a public elementary school which was giving sufficient accommodation for the district. It must be observed, also, that if this concession was made to one voluntary and denominational school, it must be made to any others in the district that could fulfil the conditions and secure the minimum average attendance. This would tend to the multiplication of small rival schools, unnecessary from the educational point of view; there would be danger of lowering the standard of education, as was found to be the case in small schools as compared with larger schools; and there would be an unnecessary expenditure, as every school, however small, must have the proper staff. Supposing, again, a time arrived when there was not sufficient accommodation in the district, and a representation to that effect was made to the Department, they would at once call on the School Board to find sufficient accommodation. If the managers of a voluntary school came forward and said, "Give the grant to us, and we will find that accommodation," the Education Department would be obliged in these circumstances, according to the present system, first to say to the School Board, "Will you find that accommodation? If not, we shall give the grant to the voluntary school; but it is your duty first to find the accommodation, and we call upon you to do your duty." If the School Board is unwilling or fails to provide the accommodation, the Department would make a grant to a voluntary school fulfilling the necessary conditions; or they would make that grant at once to the school, if the Board assented to the want of accommodation being supplied by a voluntary school. Where a voluntary school had been started for denominational purposes in a School Board district, and was certified as efficient, if it came to the Education Department and asked for a grant, it was the practice of the Education Department to say to the School Board, "Do you object to a grant being given to the school?" and the cases were very rare indeed in the large towns, and comparatively rare in the country, where the School Board objected. But School Boards did object sometimes, and especially, he thought, in Wales. In a case of that kind he agreed so far with the hon. Member as to wish that the Education Department had a little more power. He did not agree with the hon. Member in thinking that, if the Motion were adopted, it would relieve the Vice President of the Council of much labour; because, on the contrary, it would impose on the Department a more careful examination than now took place. But the Department ought to be prepared to take that responsibility; and, therefore, he agreed with the hon. Member so far. He hoped the hon. Member would not think that he was discourteous, or that he underrated the importance of the question, if he hesitated to discuss the full bearings of the Act and the Code on this point; and for this reason—that the whole matter, and other important questions of a kindred character, were at the present time under the consideration of a Royal Commission on Elementary Education. Evidence had already been given on this point; the practice and system of the Department had been fully and ably stated by the Permanent Secretary of the Department; and further evidence would, no doubt, be forthcoming. Seeing, therefore, that if any change were made in the direction desired by the hon. Member, or in the direction indicated by himself, some legislation would be required, he thought the Education Department would not be justified in introducing legislation, or, indeed, any important change in the present system of education, until they were made aware of the views of the Royal Commissioners. He could assure the hon. Member that the question, which was one of importance, and in which great and increasing interest was felt throughout the country, would not be lost sight of. He trusted the hon. Member would be satisfied with having brought the matter before the House and obtaining a discussion upon it, and that he would not press for a division, but withdraw his Resolution.

said, that the Motion of the hon. Member was exactly consonant with the spirit of the Act of 1870. The object of that Act was not to supersede voluntary effort, but that the School Board system was to be supplementary to the existing voluntary system. In carrying out the Act, however, the English Education Department and also the School Boards had interpreted its meaning as if School Boards were to supplant private schools wherever they possibly could. The Vice President pointed out what he thought would be a hardship in the case of Board schools having been erected, and of private schools rising up afterwards. There was, practically, no hardship, supposing they sanctioned a private school where there was sufficient accommodation in the Board school, for this reason—that a school was not a profitable investment in any case. Apart from the cost of the school buildings, the maintenance of the school, however numerous the pupils, was a positive loss; and the loss need not be increased by a reduction of pupils, the School Board correspondingly reducing the teaching staff and expenditure. There was no reason why the community should not have the bene- fit of the private competition if the Board school, for any reason cognizant to the parents, was not doing its duty. He, therefore, considered that if there was a Board school half empty it was better that it should remain so, in order that the community should have the full benefit of the private enterprise and competition. The Vice President of the Council practically held the position that once a School Board was formed in a district there was an end to private enterprize, because if the School Board was willing to provide sufficient school accommodation, then private schools were to be kept out. The effect of that was simply that where a Board school had got possession of a district it would practically exclude private enterprize for all time coming, even if the private schools were able to increase their accommodation. The consequence would be that in England, as in Scotland, private enterprize would be driven out of the field, and education would be placed solely in the hands of the Board schools. When they reached the Scottish Education Estimates he would show that to be the result in Scotland, and they were tending in the same direction in England. He could not understand how there could be any objection to giving a grant to any voluntary school which complied with the conditions set forth in the Amendment. There was no fear of private enterprize starting useless schools. No managers would undertake the building of schools that would not fulfil the requirements of the Code, and they were not likely to do it out of mere grudge to the School Boards. It should be the object of the Department to foster and encourage education, and to give the community the benefit of this competition so long as they protected the interest of the ratepayers by refusing to give grants to schools unless they were thoroughly efficient in the terms of the Code.

said, he desired to express his sympathy with the object of the hon. Member who had moved this Amendment. From the statement of the Vice President of the Council, he understood that in cases where there was no Board school the Department acted in accordance with the view expressed in the Amendment; but in cases where there were Board schools with sufficient accommodation there was a very great difficulty in the way of giving grants to voluntary schools, which he did not think the hon. Member for Glasgow appreciated. If the grant were given to the voluntary school as well as to the Board school the Department would have to pay twice over. In such cases he should be unwilling to see the House express any opinion; but it was different in cases where Board schools existed and did not give sufficient accommodation. In those circumstances he confessed he should like to see the Department give preference to the voluntary schools over the Board schools. That was a change in the law which he confidently looked for as a result of the Royal Commission sitting on the subject. Although sympathizing with the hon. Member, yet, as that Royal Commission was sitting, he trusted most earnestly that the hon. Member would not press his Motion to a division. At the present moment, when the Royal Commission was sitting, it was impossible for the House to come to any definite and satisfactory conclusion; and, at the same time, many hon. Members on the Conservative side of the House were unwilling to appear to be opposed to the objects of the Mover of the Amendment, with which they were in sympathy.

observed, that the Amendment was limited in its scope, and did not express all the points that the Mover desired to bring forward. Moreover, although the views of the hon. Member met with sympathy from all parts of the House, yet, as had been pointed out, it would be better to let them go on until the subject was ripe for discussion than to force a division at that particular moment. This matter would be much better thrashed out by the Royal Commission than by a discussion in the House at the present time. As to the financial aspect of the question, he doubted whether the proposal of the hon. Member to give denominational schools, side by side with Board schools, the grant in certain cases, would really injure the ratepayers very much. If a portion of the children in a district were educated at the Board schools and a part at denominational schools, it could not injure the ratepayers to divide the Vote between them.

said, he thought the hon. Member, by his Amend- ment, had hit a blot in the Education Act; and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government, when they received the Report of the Royal Commission, would take steps without delay to remove what he considered a serious injustice. If at present, in a place where it was perceived that a growth of population would occur, persons out of their own funds built a school, he could see no reason why the Department should refuse to acknowledge it. This was one of many cases where great hardship and wrong was now inflicted under the present system. There were some districts where Board schools were not in accordance with the views of the population; and if they, out of their own fund, built a denominational school to give religious instruction with a proper teaching staff it ought to be recognized and receive the grant. He sincerely trusted that this question would not be allowed to drop, but that on some future occasion a change might be made in the law. In the meantime, the hon. Member who had moved the Amendment might be satisfied with the discussion that had taken place.

said, he professed to be a Liberal, but he did not agree with that portion of the Liberal Party who were in favour of mixed as against denominational education. He thought it would be a truly Liberal programme to give denominational education to those who desired to have it.

said, that considering the Ministry had expressed themselves to a great extent in sympathy with the views of the hon. Member, and considering that a Royal Commission was investigating the education question, he could not help feeling that his hon. Friend would be ill-advised if he proceeded further with his Motion at present.

said, he would accept the advice of his hon. Friend (MR. Arthur O'Connor) and withdraw his Amendment.

said, that a few days ago he put a Ques- tion to the Secretary of State for the Home Department as to alleged breaches of the Truck Act in Scotland; and that right hon. and learned Gentleman answered that the Inspectors of Factories reported to him that they knew nothing of such breaches of the law. He (MR. Bradlaugh) therefore took advantage of the present opportunity to show that the law upon that subject was, in Scotland, persistently, wilfully, and upon a wholesale scale broken. That applied to Tiree and Shetland, to Lanarkshire, and to part of Ayrshire. It was impossible that the Inspectors of Factories in the various districts could be ignorant of the fact; and if they pleaded ignorance to the Home Secretary, there must be some other reason for their want of knowledge than was apparent to the mind of a private Member. At a large meeting of coal and ironworkers, which he (MR. Bradlaugh) attended, as did the hon. Members for the local divisions, at Motherwell, thousands of men declared that the whole of the labourers there present were cognizant of breaches of the Truck Act happening in the works in which they were employed, and a resolution was passed condemning the system declared to be largely in vogue in the county. He would not trouble the House with details as to Tiree, which was partially dealt with in the Report of the Crofters' Commission, nor would he on that occasion go into the broach of the law in Zetland and Fair Isle, though he held in his hand a careful statement of the breaches made on high and indisputable authority; he would confine himself to Lanarkshire, where the state of things seemed every bit as bad as when reported upon in 1871 by the Truck Commission, which thus described the practice as proved before them—

"When a man wants an advance before payday, he goes to the cashier or the clerk with his book, in which is entered the amount of work he has done. The cashier or clerk marks on the hook the sum which the workman is to receive, and hands the hook hack to him with cash. On receiving the money the workman is expected to take it to the store and deliver it to the head storeman, who in return provides him with a line or ticket for the amount. This line is available for articles at the store to the extent of the figure written upon it. In some cases the man is permitted, either by the clerk or the storekeeper, to carry away a small proportion in actual cash, 1s. or 2s., or 2s. 6d. in 10s., being the usual allowance."

He (MR. Bradlaugh) had investigated many cases; but the difficulty was that the men entreated that their names and addresses might not be given unless the Government took the matter up, as they would be at once dismissed from their employment and their families would starve. He had in his hand a pay-note which was issued within the last five weeks, and it contained two items, one for "cash" and the other was what was called the "cash account." The first thing that occurred to the mind was that it was somewhat extraordinary that two such separate items of cash should be printed on each man's pay-note. Really, the practice was to pay fortnightly, or at longer periods. The poor man, unable to exist, obtained an intermediate advance, but not until after he had earned it. Such advances were entered against the first "cash" in the pay-note; but for any money advanced upon this account he was charged interest, though the money had been already earned. The rate of interest was astounding. Upon the ticket before him the charge was 9d. for an advance of 15s. for five days; but the regular rate was 6d. for 10s. for a week, 1s. for £1, which was, at the lowest, 250 per cent per annum; and this was charged to men for lending them their own money. Then the second line "cash account" was the shop account, which was remarkable. The man applied, and got "a line" that nominally entitled him to receive a certain amount in cash; but, in reality, he could only obtain goods. If he should get cash, and with it buy goods elsewhere, he would have to leave the works. One poor man in Lanarkshire wrote him thus—

"The proprietor one day was going into the town, and met one of his workmen's children with a basket on her arm; he looked into the basket and found a few provisions—he asked her where she had got them, and the girl telling him, he told the father he would not allow it, there was a shop there, and he must use it; and I believe it is very prevalent all through Scotland, I beg to say that I send this in all confidence, as I should suffer the penalty of instant dismissal should it become known."

He would not now delay the House from going into Committee by stating further instances; but if he could insure protection to the men he could furnish evidence of over 200 cases which he had himself investigated. The House might wonder why, the law being so audaciously broken, it was not enforced in Scotland, as it had been recently by the Treasury in Wales. Prosecutions in Scotland were conducted by the Procurator Fiscal in all cases in which that official could get his expenses; but, curiously enough, the Truck Act was drawn by English lawyers, who made no provision for prosecutions being conducted in Scotch Courts. That difficulty had been noted by the Truck Commission of 1870; and he would trouble the House with the following extract from the examination by the Royal Commissioners of the Procurator Fiscal of the Hamilton district—

"Can you inform us whose duty it is? It is the duty of every man who finds himself aggrieved.—But of nobody in particular? Of nobody in particular.—Suppose a miner were aggrieved, would the information be given to you, or to the police? To either; but I never had an information of the kind.—And I rather gather from what you have said that you would not move in the matter, although you had? I would not.—Then to whom ought a complaining miner to make his complaint? He would require to employ an agent to conduct his case for him, and proceed in his own name.—Even if he was complaining of a criminal offence? If he was complaining of an offence against the Truck Act.—And wished to prosecute? Yes, and wished to prosecute.—I am not talking of a case in which he wished to recover money back? No; I am speaking of a contravention of the Truck Act.—Then he would have to employ an agent at his own expense, and proceed in his own name? Yes.—Suppose he were to complain to the police, what would they tell him? That he must proceed himself.—Is not that a very exceptional state of things in the law? It is so; I do not remember any other Act of Parliament in the same condition."

And yet the law has been left in this unsatisfactory state. The Procurators Fiscal did not, unfortunately, take up prosecutions in cases of breach of the Truck Act; nor, perhaps, could they be expected to do so until they knew they would get their expenses paid, and that was a state of things which he desired to see remedied. He was advised that to secure this it needed a short amending Bill to enact—(1) That all prosecutions under the Truck Acts may be brought in the Sheriffs' Courts, and by the Procurators Fiscal thereof; (2) That the expenses of such prosecutions should enter the Sheriffs' accounts against their counties, and be repayable in Exchequer, as in other prosecutions; and (3) That pecuniary penalties adjudged by Sheriffs should be accounted for by them in Exchequer. The Royal Commission of 1870 had denounced, and he (MR. Brad- laugh) would again denounce, this truck system as demoralizing in the highest degree. The Secretary of State for the Home Department said that he had no information upon the matter, though it was perfectly well known to 30,000 or 40,000 workmen. He was not attacking the right hon. and learned Gentleman personally, who had received his (Mr. Bradlaugh's) statements with great courtesy, and who, he believed, desired to suppress this shameful system. But it was the Secretary of State who had to answer in that House. He (MR. Bradlaugh) had in his possession allegations of cases where employers, reputed for their honour and integrity, and who gave large donations to churches, had beer shops and whisky stores at the doors of their places of business, and who advanced money to the men to go in and spend in these places, and charged them, in addition, 250 per cent interest on the advances. It was intolerable that when breaches of the Truck Act had almost entirely disappeared in England and were punished in Wales, the law should be allowed to become a dead letter in Scotland. The putting of the law in force should surely not be left to poor ignorant men without pecuniary means, who could not proceed without employing law agents' counsel.

said, that he could not follow the hon. Gentleman upon the province of fact into which he had entered. He had done his best within the last week to make inquiries on the subject. He had some, although imperfect, information with regard to Tiree; and he was bound to say about it that, although the state of things was by no means satisfactory, and one for which he could wish to see a remedy, he was not satisfied that what took place there could be reached by the Truck Act at all. As he gathered, the workmen in Tiree, who were paid in goods instead of money, were not artificers within the meaning of the Truck Act. They were simply persons who collected sea weed or tangle, which was ultimately used for glass manufacture, but who were not employed in any manufacturing process. Moreover, in extenuation of the practice which seemed to prevail in Tiree of giving these labourers goods instead of money for their wages, various excuses were urged by the employers. Some said that the workmen themselves preferred it. He would scrutinize a plea like that closely before accepting it. Others alleged that the system of giving meal was preferred by the men.

That very excuse was made and dealt with by the Truck Commissioners, who rejected it as an invalid excuse.

said, that the Crofters' Commission had dealt with the case of payment with meal instead of coin, and expressed no very positive conclusion on the subject. They did not state positively whether the custom prevailed so as to bring it within the Truck Act. Another excuse was made, and if true would, he thought, be a valid one, that the difficulty of reaching Tiree was so great, owing to stormy weather, that the getting of regular supplies of coin was a matter of almost impossibility. He did not pretend so set himself on an equality of zeal with the lion. Member in this matter; but he claimed the next place to him in zeal, and he would assure the hon. Member that if any efforts could tend to prevent any abuse which came within the letter or the spirit of the Truck Act, they should not be wanting in order to protect the workmen, whose cause was advocated with such ability by the hon. Member. With regard to what went on in Lanarkshire, he was not able to assist the hon. Gentleman with any statement of facts at present; he had done his utmost within the last four or five days to get information on the matter. He had no reason whatever to doubt the accuracy of the information which the hon. Gentleman had laid before the House, but he was not at present able to confirm it; and, of course, the hon. Member would not expect him to take official action without that confirmation. He had reason to suspect, though he did not know yet, that the system to which the hon. Member had alluded of charging what was called a "commission" by some employers for advances of wages did exist in that part of Scotland. The Scotch law seemed to him to be as impenetrable as a Scotch mist, and he did not profess to have any knowledge of the subject; and the Lord Advocate, he was sorry to say, was not at his elbow to enlighten him. At the same time, he thought that the system of making a workman's wages payable every fortnight, and to charge him 6d. or 1s. for an advance of 10s., was a very great abuse, and if it was not freely and voluntarily consented to by the workmen themselves it was a matter which any friend of the workmen would be justified in protesting against. As to compelling them to deal at a particular shop, the hon. Member was as good a judge as he was whether that was against the spirit of the Truck Act; and if he could do anything with the assistance of the Secretary for Scotland and the advice of the Lord Advocate, he and they would do their utmost to stimulate Procurators Fiscal and to induce them to inquire into these matters.

said, he regretted that he had not known beforehand that the hon. Member for Northampton was to bring forward this subject to-night. If he had he would have looked into the law of the subject, and would also have endeavoured to get more facts from the county of Lanark than he had at present. In fact, he was not aware that the Forms of the House would have allowed of the subject being brought forward now. If he had it would have been his business to bring forward the subject himself, as he was aware that it was regarded with great interest in the county. The abuses complained of in Lanarkshire were of two kinds. The one was the system of poundage by which a miner got an advance on his wages on what he had earned, and was charged an exorbitant interest upon it. He might explain to the Home Secretary that this was a matter which had nothing whatever to do with the Scottish law. It required no familiarity with the Scottish law, and the Truck Act and the subsidiary Acts dealing with the subject were equally applicable to every part of the United Kingdom. There was no doubt a very considerable difference of opinion from the information he had received as to how far the system of truck prevailed in Lanarkshire. But he quite agreed with his hon. Friend that it did prevail to a considerable extent. He knew one employer who denied that the shop system continued in existence now, although it was very bad 15 years ago, and who was even astonished to hear that the system of poundage prevailed, although there was no doubt it did. He would press the matter on the atten- tion of the Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland; but would not express any conclusion himself on the subject just now, not having had an opportunity to look into the law on the subject. No doubt the Truck Commissioners 15 years ago pointed out that the machinery of the law for bringing breaches of the Truck Act before Courts of Justice was ineffective as regarded Scotland. It was constructed for England. The statement of the hon. Member for Northampton that the hitch lay in the non-provision for expenses did not explain the whole cause for inaction. There was frequently difficulty in prosecuting what were called quasi-criminal offences. Criminal offences were prosecuted by the Public Prosecutor, and that official did not receive or ask for his cost; but in quasi-criminal cases, such as breaches of the Factory or Truck Acts, difficulty sometimes arose, although it might be got over occasionally. The Solicitor General for Scotland would probably corroborate him in saying that it was sometimes got over by the issuing of an order, as it was in the power of the Lord Advocate to do, directing that the Procurators Fiscal should conduct such prosecutions. One point he asked the Home Secretary to consider was how far the law as regarded the mode of bringing offences against the Truck Act before the Courts of Law might be amended; and the second point he asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider was whether the Truck Act covered the system of poundage. The shop system and the poundage system were a very great hardship to the workmen; and he asked the Home Secretary and the Lord Advocate to consider whether the present law would suffice, and whether it ought not to be extended.

said, that in all the Highland quarries the truck system was in operation. When in Argyllshire in June and July, before the present Lord Advocate was appointed, he had called his attention to the matter, particularly in connection with the Easdale quarries. The probability was that in Tiree, the Procurator Fiscal being the agent of the proprietor, nothing was done. He knew that in his own county the truck system prevailed in the flagstone quarries; and the Procurator Fiscal, being also agent for the proprietor, winked at it. There the men were paid, not once a fortnight, but every three months. The accounts were made up every three months, and then the men had to wait another month before receiving payment. The only pier to winch a ship could bring coals belonged to the Company who had only once in a considerable number of years allowed any ship to come there except their own. They imported meal and coal, and sold them to their men, and the local merchants could not compete with them. He was glad the Home Secretary had taken up the question; and he hoped that by next Session they should find the subject had been investigated, and that the Procurator Fiscal, who had been tolerating, if not aiding and abetting, would receive proper attention.

said, he wished to point out that in Scotland there was a civil remedy for these grievances. If a workman were paid in kind he could sue for payment in money, going back for a considerable period; and if he were in the position of not being able to conduct the prosecution, the law of Scotland provided him with counsel, provided he could show a primâ facie case. Therefore a remedy was within the reach of even the poorest man in Scotland, and expenses would always follow the success of the case. With regard to poundage it was difficult to bring it under the Truck Act, because the matter was outside the contract of service, the workman desiring payment in advance. That was a private arrangement between him and his master. Under the law as it at present stood he did not think that that would necessarily come under the Act. It was a question whether it ought not to be brought under the Act; but he merely wished to point out that a civil remedy at present existed.

said, he wished to ask the Government what course they would pursue in reference to the Belfast Royal Hospital? The board of management had forwarded a Memorial on the subject of the strain on their means owing to the late riots; and he was sure the Government would deal liberally with the demand for aid. The Belfast Royal Hospital was entirely supported by voluntary contributions, and had never received Government assistance; but the recent riots had made an extraordinary demand upon the resources of the institution, for, for weeks and weeks, wounded persons—some wounded by the rioters, others by the forces of the Crown—were continually brought in. Already there was a deficit in the accounts for the year, and the Governors would have been entitled to close their doors to the afflicted on the ground that they had no money to carry on the work. However, in a humane and public spirit these gentlemen opened their wards to 369 victims of gunshot and other wounds. The careful treatment given to these was in most cases successful. Deaths had been prevented, and families saved from much sorrow, and the area of destitution greatly limited. This was a case of great magnitude. At the time of the riots the funds of the hospital were some £300 behind, and now this deficit was increased to £1,100. If this £800 were made good the Governors would be enabled to meet the ordinary admission of wounded and sick. Before their dependeme was always on voluntary subscriptions; but owing to the general depression in business the subscribers were unable to increase the amounts of their gifts. Hence he saw nothing for it but for the Government, if it did not intend to be parsimonious, to help to save the Governors from the necessity of closing the hospital's doors. The Government allowed about £15,000 a-year to certain hospitals in Dublin, and about £8,000 to Government hospitals. He did not suggest a redistribution of these grants; but he did think that an emergency grant of £800 to the Belfast institution by the Government should be made.

said, the question was entirely new to him, for he had seen nothing of the Memorial from the Governors of the hospital to which allusion had been made. That Memorial would not come before him necessarily; but he would undertake, in conjunction with the Chief Secretary and the Attorney General for Ireland, to go carefully into the circumstances of the case. He was not willing that the hon. Member should have the chance of bringing, with any show of justice, a charge of parsimony in this case against the Government. The hon. Member, he believed, did not ask for an annual grant—[MR. SEXTON: Nothing of the kind.]—but an exceptional and special grant. [MR. SEXTON: Hear, hear!] Well, that being the case, if it was the opinion of the Authorities in Ireland that a special grant should be made from the Treasury to this hospital on account of the expense it was put to in consequence of the riots, he, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, should throw no difficulty in the way of that being done.

said, he rose to call attention to the administration of justice in Ireland, and to the fact that successive Lords Lieutenant of Ireland, in the face of new facts which had come to light in connection with the Barbavilla prisoners, had neglected their administrative duties. His Friends and himself were ready now to offer evidence strong enough to have those unfortunate men released and restored to their homes. They had the evidence of a constable who himself was engaged in these trials, and who would prove that the very sources of justice in Ireland were polluted. The hon. Gentleman proceeded to refer to the Barbavilla murder.

I must call the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that I have already ruled, at an earlier period of the evening, that the question of the Barbavilla murder has no reference whatever to the Estimates now before the House. The Standing Order states that distinctly—that no question shall be raised or Motion made that is not strictly relevant to the Estimates to be taken in Supply. I have already allowed two subjects to be brought before the House, because in my opinion they were pertinent to the Estimates—namely, the Motion proposed by the hon. Member for North Leitrim (MR. Conway), and the question of the Truck Act, raised by the hon. Member for Northampton (MR. Bradlaugh). Those two subjects are clearly connected with grants contained in the present Estimates. But the subject which the hon. Member for Westmeath (MR. Tuite) now seeks to bring before the House is, in my opinion, not relevant to the Estimates, and cannot, therefore, be discussed.

said, he wished to point out the enormous expense which was incurred in Ireland by employing the Constabulary to assist the landlords in carrying out evictions. He did not think it fair that the ratepayers should be burdened by the cost of the evictions of Irish tenants. He had a strong opinion that it was not the Government's duty to assist landlords at enormous public expense, more especially in cases of ejectment, where there was no movable property on the premises for distraint. He believed the Government would be justified in aiding a fair levy of personalty; but when they went so far as to expend a monstrous sum of money on an almost pauperized peasant, he thought the public ratepayers had a right to enforce a claim of consideration for their interests, and not be punished in addition to the evicted people, who would become immediately chargeable to the rates as well.

Order, order! I do not understand how the hon. Member can connect the question of evictions in Ireland with these Estimates.

I am perfectly aware that there is nothing in the Estimates; but that is another argument in favour of my contention; but, from a public point of view, the Government, in lending their aid to these evictions, have displayed very bad judgment.

The hon. Member is quite out of Order in the observations he is making.

Shall I not be in Order in giving my view of the evictions which from time to time have been carried out in Ireland, and of the experience which we have gained of the action of the Government in connection with them? Not long ago a gun-boat was wrecked off the coast of Donegal while engaged in assisting the landlords to levy rents to a small amount in Tory Island. The Constabulary Vote appears in these Estimates, and I want to know why the Government should expend the public money in the employment of the police to assist the landlords in enforcing executions and evictions?

There is nothing in the Estimates which refers to the subject, and the hon. Member is altogether out of Order.

resumed his seat.

There is a subject in connection with the Irish Constabulary which has been a long-standing grievance in Ireland, and I hope I shall not be ruled out of Order in calling attention to it. The Standing Order provides that any subject may be discussed on first going into Supply upon the particular class of Estimates to which it relates. I see that in Class III. the Vote for the Irish Constabulary is to be taken; and, therefore, I think I am entitled to call attention to the character of the expenditure under that head. It is a notorious fact that the cost of the Irish Constabulary has long been greatly in excess, having regard to the number of population, to that of any other country on the face of the earth; and, instead of showing any sign of diminution, it has gone on steadily increasing year by year. If attention is not directed to it, in all probability it will still continue to increase. The whole Vote his been augmented in nearly every single item. There is one particular item bearing on this point to which I wish to draw the attention of the Committee—tin item for the Transport Service. This year it has increased from £1,500 to £5,000, which I cannot help regarding as a monstrous state of things. The increase itself is no less than 200 per cent, or £3,500 upon a Vote of £1,500. The cause of this increase is not difficult to understand by those who have watched the course of events in Ireland. It is all owing to the unreasonable action of certain landlords. A considerable portion of it will go, no doubt, to pay the expenses of the large body of police which has been concentrated at Gweedore in order to assist in the evictions which have been carried out there, and in the course of which the amount of money collected for the landlord did not exceed £20, although the expense of that campaign to the country will at the very least amount to £500. I think this is a very strong case to justify the dissatisfaction which is expressed in Ireland against the conduct of the Executive. Then, again, there has been a continual campaign carried on by Lord Kenmare against his tenantry—carried on at enormous expense, and leading also to other contingent expenses owing to the large number of police it is necessary to provide for the protection of his property, and which costs several hundreds of pounds annually. The other day a body of no less than 700 or 800 police was concentrated in the town of Woodford. The traders of Portumna refused to supply them with provisions, and transports had to be employed at an enormous expense to carry them, in their own carts, a distance of 30 or 40 miles. After the campaign had lasted for some days three or four men were evicted, and the amount of rent collected certainly fell short of £100. Altogether the campaign, which has excited the public mind and created a great deal of annoyance, will have cost the country £400 or £500 at the very least. And this is not all; because if hon. Members will look into the details of the case they will find that when the campaign was over it was found that the tenants against whom it was undertaken were altogether destitute, and it would never have been undertaken if the landlords would have consented to meet the tenants in a reasonable spirit. Because the landlord would not meet his tenants the whole Forces of the Crown have been put into operation at an enormous expense to the country, contrasted with the result. It is said that the Government had no discretion in the matter, but that they are obliged to place the Forces of the Crown at the disposal of the Sheriff whenever he requires their aid. I know that perfectly well; but I contend that it is the business of the Irish Government to ask and insist upon obtaining some measure from Parliament to relieve them of this odious duty until some better settlement of the Land Question can be arrived at. I raised the question in this House last week; but I am sorry to say that I got no satisfaction. Since then the evil has gone on unchecked, and therefore I feel it my duty to raise it again. Upon every opportunity I shall continue to protest against the waste of public money in carrying out unreasonable evictions in Ireland. It is ridiculous to tell me that the Irish Executive have no choice in the matter. My answer is that they ought to come to this House and ask for powers that will give them a discretion so far as lending the assistance of the police is concerned. Any sensible man must see that the entire population of Woodford were in unanimity. It became necessary to supply the police with provisions drawn from a distance of 30 or 40 miles, and that fact alone must convince every man of common sense that there is something radically wrong in the state of the law. During the campaign something like £400 or £500 were spent in bringing in provisions—which sum would have been a God-send to the poor shopkeepers in the West of Galway, and yet so intense was their feeling that none of them would consent to take a single farthing of the money. The feeling must not only have been unanimous, but exceedingly strong; and I think the time has come when it is absolutely necessary to introduce a measure to give the Executive Government discretionary powers. I think I am perfectly entitled to draw the attention of the Government to this matter, and to make an appeal to the House for sympathy towards these poor people during the coming winter, in view of the destitution which is likely to exist. I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will be able to give us some hope that this expectation will not be disappointed, and that the Government will refuse to send out large bodies of the police upon similar expeditions as that to Woodford, and that before Parliament is prorogued they will be able to provide some measure of relief.

said, he rose to call attention to the hardship to farmers caused by their having to go long distances at inconvenient times in order to appeal against assessments of taxes under Schedules A and B, when, he contended, the amount at which they had been assessed was manifestly absurdly high.

I rise to Order. I beg to submit to you, Sir, that the hon. Gentleman is out of Order in raising a question as to the Income Tax appeals against the assessment under Schedules A and B. There is no Vote in the Estimates about to be brought on which relates to Income Tax appeals, and the matter is altogether in the hands of local Commissioners, whose services are rendered voluntarily. There is no charge whatever for their services in the Estimates.

As far as the local Commissioners are concerned, the remarks of the hon. Member have no reference to anything that appears in the Estimates; but I understand that he was advocating a policy of appeal to the Commissioners of the Inland Revenue, and, as far as they are concerned, his remarks would be pertinent.

said, the farmers thought so much of the hardship that they often preferred not to appeal, and then it was said of them that times could not be so bad as they represented them to be because they paid taxes on so high an income. He hoped the Government would try and make the procedure of appeals in such cases more simple and less inconvenient than they were.

said, he rose to complain of the very large sum of money spent on the Royal Irish Constabulary, which had lately been increasing. For the reason of that increase he contended they had not far to seek, and if they took the trouble to inquire they would find it to be owing to the forces of the Crown being lent to Irish landlords for the purpose of enabling them to extract extravagant rents from poor Irish tenants. Hon. Members from Ireland maintained that it was necessary that a suspension of evictions should now take place, otherwise they believed that it would be the duty of the Government, considering the social state of the country and the inability of the tenants to pay rent, to bring in a Bill to temporarily suspend evictions. If evictions were suspended the great cost of which he complained would be largely curtailed, because much of the expense was incurred in looking after derelict farms, which were of no value to those who lived on them, as their property was the landlords, or creditors, and were merely curses in the district, causing crime, and arousing the spirit of retaliation. He urged the House to insist on lessening this criminal expense by checking evictions. He was sure such a course would be advantageous to the tenant and landlord alike, and would largely restore peace and tranquillity to Ireland. The hon. Member was proceeding to enlarge on this point, when—

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is speaking more particularly of evictions than of the employment of the police, and the policy of evictions has nothing to do with the Constabulary Vote.

I was endeavouring to point out that the increased cost of the police was due to their employment at evictions, and that is a work which we consider to be not only unnecessary, but ill-advised.

said, it was rather difficult to understand the precise object of the discussion which had been going on for some time. The House could not on that occasion enter into the question of the law with regard to evictions. That had been discussed at great length during the debate on the Address, and the House would have before long another debate on the same subject raised on the Bill which he understood the hon. Member for Cork (MR. Parnell) intended shortly to introduce. For these reasons, therefore, he could not understand why the question should be raised now, or what profit, even if it were in Order, would result from the discussion. The hon. Member for Mayo (MR. Dillon) had raised a point in reference to the expenses of the Constabulary and their transport. He was quite aware that those expenses were large, and that they had increased materially; but the hon. Member and his Friends did not charge the Government with any improper or illegal action in the matter. They admitted that, as the law now stood, expenses had to be incurred, and their arguments only went to show that the law which existed at present ought to be altered. But that was a question which it was impossible for the House to discuss at that stage. So far as the expenses were concerned, he could assure the House that no one regretted charges of that kind more than Her Majesty's Government. Why were these charges so large? Not from any desire on the part of the Government, or, he was quite sure, on the part of the late Government, to use the Constabulary to assist landlords to evict tenants, but because the Government, by reason of their position, were compelled to respond to the demands which were made upon them, not by landlords, but by Sheriffs and Sub-Sheriffs, for the protection of themselves and their officers in the execution of a duty which the law imposed upon them. Hon. Members had referred to the large expenditure which undoubtedly bad been incurred the other day in carrying out certain evictions at Woodford. But any hon. Member who had seen the accounts of what occurred on that occasion would admit that, but for the presence of a large force of Constabulary, not only would the Sheriffs and their officers have been subjected to the grave and serious assaults which were committed upon them, but it would have been impossible for them to carry out a duty which the law imposed upon them. The Government, therefore, were obliged, in response to the request of the Sheriffs, to send Constabulary into the district for the preservation of peace and the protection of the officers of the law. Indeed, the whole history of that event showed, not an inability on the part of the evicted tenants to pay their rents, but a determined and desperate combination of the whole of the inhabitants of that district against the execution of the law. He did not wish to enter now into the reasons of that combination. It might be, as the hon. Member who spoke last considered, that the law was not in accordance with the wishes of the population. In that case let the hon. Member and his Friends apply to Parliament to alter the law. That was not a matter to be discussed on the Constabulary Vote. But if hon. Members desired to question the mode in which that Vote was expended, and the details of that expenditure, it would be much easier to do so on the Vote itself, on which his noble Friend had promised a good opportunity for discussion. He hoped that hon. Members would not think it necessary to continue the debate on this occasion, but that they would permit the House to proceed with the Business of Supply, and then hon. Members would come in due course to the discussion of the particular Vote in which they took so proper and great an interest.

said, he recognized the conciliatory manner in which the right hon. Gentleman made his appeal; and he could assure him, on the part of his hon. Friends, that it was not intended to have a long discussion on this particular subject at the present stage. But they felt that it was incumbent upon them to protest against the system of misusing the Constabulary of Ireland, as was done at the present time. They had a right to raise the question, and they were impelled by a sense of public duty to do so. Every increase which was made to the Constabulary Force, abnormally and preposterously numerous as that Force already was, might be traced to the attempts of this country to bolster up the landlords of Ireland in their rack-renting efforts. In the county of Kerry, which he had the honour to represent, there was an extra force of 300 constables. The contrast with the state of affairs in England had struck him very forcibly. He was not a person who was particularly attached to the society of constables, since on two or three occasions he had enjoyed more of their attentions than he desired. But it happened recently that in New market, in Cambridgeshire, he did desire the assistance of the police, and he learned to his surprise that in that town of 6,000 inhabitants the whole police force consisted of four individuals; while in the town of Castleisland, in Kerry, they had the services of 97 policemen to keep the peace for 1,200 people. He stated without fear of contradiction that these extra constables were peace-breakers rather than peace-makers, or peace conservators. The noble Marquess at the head of the Government had called attention the other day to the number of men who were kept employed in protecting the Earl of Kenmare and a lady who resided near Tralee. Some of these constables who were in charge of the estates of this lady had been seen fetching band-boxes and bonnets from the lady's house to the nearest railway station. There were now eight or nine constables on special protection duty on account of this lady, and the calculation was that this special service cost £900 a-year. It was a serious matter that this charge should come upon the public, and be paid for out of the pockets of the ratepayers. He did not pretend for a moment to say that the protection which Kerry landlords had asked for was needless. As a Representative of the County Kerry he confessed with humiliation that in some cases protection was necessary. But he said also that the claim for protection had been abused. He instanced the case of Herbert in North Kerry, who the other day obtained protection on the ground that he had been shot in the nail of his forefinger. No doubt Mr. Herbert was unpopular and desired protection. But Mr. Herbert had recently got a side-car for his own accommodation, Since he had got police protection the police rode about the country on the side-car, for the use of which he was paid, while he himself went about in his common cart. He thought the Government might with advantage give some supervision to these matters, to see that those who sought the protection of the police were not exposed to the temptation of mating a good thing of the arrangement. He mentioned the case of another Kerry landlord who was well known in Tralee, who made sport of his protectors, dodging them in the market place so that he might be able to make a report against them. In another case, in the village of Currans, the constable who ought to be on protection duty outside the house of a farmer named Murphy was seated before the kitchen fire in the company of Miss Murphy, when, perhaps, in the course of demonstrating to her some scientific experiment or other his gun exploded, and the charge entered the arm of her brother. The constable and his companion in arms immediately began skirmishing round the premises outside, and made it appear that the brother had been shot through the window by a "Moonlighter." Thus the story was repeated in the English newspapers, the English public were horrified to read of another disgraceful and cowardly outrage in County Kerry. But although he had watched the newspapers carefully since he had found no contradiction or true explanation of the preposterous story. He mentioned the matter for the purpose of showing the exceptionally friendly relations on which the Constabulary entered with the people whom they were employed to protect, and asked how the people of the country could be expected to have confidence in the Constabulary under such circumstances as he had narrated? It was extremely hard that the people of the country should obtain a bad character on accouut of incidents like these. He did not say that crime and outrage did not occur. He had himself denounced crime and outrage at the risk of his life. But what he said was that the country was over-policed in a ridiculous manner. He had himself been driving back to Tralee a few nights ago from a place in County Kerry which he had been visiting, when he saw a figure rise out of a hedge by the wayside. It looked like a man dressed in a woman's petticoat. His first impulse was to throw a stone at him, as he suspected him of mischief; but it was fortunate that he restrained himself, since it turned out that the man was a sergeant of police, who had with him two armed policemen hiding behind the hedge. He ventured to say that if he had obeyed his first impulse and had cast the stone, he would not now have been present to trouble the House with his observations. The system under which the Constabulary warped their minds filled them with suspicions about everything and about everybody. The police were managed by the landlords. In the County Kerry the present High Sheriff, Mr. Meredith, was a landlord. His father-in-law was Clerk of the Peace and Assessor for the County. The Assessor's son—that was to say, the brother-in-law of the High Sheriff—was the Sub-Sheriff. Mr. Goodman, another relative of the family, was Vice Deputy or Deputy's Deputy of the High Sheriff. It was absurd to tell him after that that there was no connection between landlordism and the extra number of police employed in Kerry. The whole reason why so many extra police were employed in the County Kerry was that the whole administration of the county was in the hands of the landlords. The hon. Member proceeded to comment on the fact that General Buller, who had been sent down as a Special Commissioner to Kerry, stabled his horses with the Earl of Kenmare, whom the police were protecting, and lodged at the hotel where his Lordship's agent boarded. He objected to the maintenance of an inordinate police at the expense of the ratepayers in order to bolster up an oppressive landlordism. ["Oh!"] If the hon. Gentleman opposite had any fault to find with his statements let him reply in fair argument. An "Oh!" or an "Ah!" a grunt or a "Bah!" proved nothing. Something more logical was requisite in the House of Commons. He felt that if he much further detained the House he might not raise himself in its esteem. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen who cheered that statement no doubt meant to imply that he was doing something disreputable. Since that was the case, and he had no character left to lose in their estimation, he might continue his remarks. He proceeded to quote a case from the practice of the Land Court, in which a tenant had had his rent reduced from £145 10s. to £100. The meaning of this was that the tenant in this case had been unduly rack-rented to the amount of £45 10s. a-year. He objected to the imposition of an extra police upon a county to exact these rack-rents.

The hon. Gentleman is going into the whole subject of the Land Question in Ireland, and the only colourable justification he puts forward is the employment of the Constabulary, the pay of whom is included in the Estimates. The hon. Member is altogether out of Order.

I feel that I have already received considerable indulgence from the Chair; and I will not, therefore, persevere further than to reiterate my contention that the need and occasion of this expenditure is the disturbed state of Ireland, and that if you will remove the irritating causes which have led to the necessity for increasing the Constabulary you will do something in the interests of humanity and towards securing the integrity of the Empire.

said, that the Constabulary were employed in some cases in large numbers where their services were perfectly useless, and an undue tax for their maintenance was cast upon the ratepayers. He hoped the Government we would remedy that state of things, and also desist from so extensively using the police during the coming winter in enforcing evictions. He was surprised to hear the Chief Secretary make the statement that the non-payment of seed rate and rent, for the recovery of which the police were employed at vast expense, was not due to inability, but to unwillingness to pay. Why, there never was a debt so satisfactorily paid under such circumstances as had been the seed rate, the value received by the people under it being very much under what it would have been were it not for the delay of the Tory Government of the day to recognize in time the distress which prevailed. The absurdity of branches of the League, as alleged, encouraging people not to pay seed rate would be evident when it was recollected that every default in the payment of the rate increased the burden on the landholders in the division, who themselves constituted the greater proportion of the members of the League.

said, it would be easy for him to quote a number of instances to show that the services of the police were abused. In one case in his own district a girl 10 years of age, who was suffering from fever, was one of a family whom the police assisted in evicting. The poor girl died next day. In another case the wife of one James Phelan, to whom a clergyman had administered the last rites of the Church, had been put out upon the ditch side, although the doctor in attendance certified that she was dying. In the district which he had the honour to represent the people were very poor, and in numbers of cases where the police attended evictions no benefit could be derived to the landlords, because the cost of the policemen was infinitely more than the chattels of these poor people would make when seized for the expenses of evictions. He contended that it was the duty of Irish Members to use every legitimate means in their power to bring forward these cases, and show how the English taxpayers were burdened for aiding the landlords in their acts of injustice and cruelty. Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

said, he cordially endorsed the observations of his hon. Friends who had preceded him. He came from a division of Donegal, and he could speak from personal painful familiarity with the facts that in that division evictions had taken place with painful frequency, and had been attended with those appalling circumstances that invariably distinguished evictions. Landlordism asserted its power in the most grinding way—

reminded the hon. Member that the Question before the House had reference to the Constabulary.

said, that as the Constabulary had been chiefly used for maintaining evictions in Ireland during recent years, he trusted he would not be out of Order if he referred to the painful circumstances with which evic- tions were attended. The police had been principally used in maintaining eviction in Ireland. He could speak from his own personal knowledge that in the district which he had the honour of representing a whole country side at the present time had been swept from their homes. The people had been cleared from their dwellings, and the police had been posted in those dwellings. Their presence there was an object of social discontent, for it was the direct cause of those social inconveniences and social disturbances that were much too frequently illustrated in Ireland. There was one landlord who had bought an estate in his district, and who had swept the poor people from their houses for arrears which they had believed had been wiped out. The Constabulary had there been enlisted to carry out the fell purposes of the landlord. He had been pointed out a most fruitful district in his division of five miles in extent where not the slightest vestige of human existence was to be found. He had been pointed out a bleak hillside where a poor widow and her children had been ruthlessly evicted. The police were there. At one eviction the authorities took the heartless course of engaging a drumming party to deaden the cries of the helpless children who were being driven from their homes. The Government lent all, and furnished all the powers at their command. He believed it was a proper and suitable thing for them to utter a protest against the voting away of money to uphold a force which had been identified in latter days with such heartless and cruel injustice.

said, he rose to call attention to the administration of the Woods and Forests Department. He had intended bringing forward the subject in Committee of Supply on the Vote for the salary of one of the Commissioners; but he thought this was a good opportunity to bring the matter under the notice of the Government. As the House was, no doubt, aware, the theory generally held was that at the commencement of the present reign a bargain was struck with Her Majesty the Queen to give up all the Crown lands in consideration of an ad- dition to the Civil List. The cost of the Office of Woods and Forests in London alone amounted to £16,738; and, in addition to what appeared in the Estimates, there was a detailed account of receipts and expenditure in regard to Crown lands, which he supposed was laid on the Table of the House, because it was to be found in the Library. As an example of what was going on, he would take Windsor Park and Woods. There was an Estimate of £2,307 for the Windsor Home Park and Kitchen Gardens; and besides that there was the Windsor Forest. It must be remembered that a quid pro quo was given yearly for the income supposed to be derived from these properties, and the business of the House was to look at the matter in its commercial aspect. Most men would say that if the Crown would give them a lease for nothing of the Windsor Park and Forest they would accept it, and would expect to make a good thing out of it. But the Commissioners, whose receipts were £4,885, expended £26,218, so that there was a loss of £22,333 per annum. The outlay was accounted for by there being a Ranger and a Deputy Ranger and other officials. There was £327 for gamekeepers, and £245 was spent in improving the head-keeper's lodge. This was in the year 1884–5, and appeared in the Abstract of Accounts in the Library. There were repairs to lodges at Ascot and Datchet and the Royal stables and kennels, and these were put down at £4,815. Food for deer cost £418, and food for game—that was, for pheasants—£500. Who shot the pheasants? He believed it was Prince Christian. But it was never understood that in taking over this as a matter of business we were to provide game for His Royal Highness. There was £180 for a chaplain, but it was difficult to say what there was for him to do. The case of the New Forest was not so bad. The receipts of the New Forest were £13,632, as against an expenditure of £11,885; but, considering it was said that this Forest was kept up to obtain Wood for the Navy, it could not be supposed that the sole amount of profit obtained was a little over £2,000 a-year. One item of expenditure was £103 for dog kennels, which presumably were required only by some Inspector or Ranger, and were therefore ordered at the public expense. Spread over the pages were items for schools and churches, sometimes not distinguishing what was given to each separately. The question arose whether these donations were confined to the Established Church, and if so why? When he was asked recently for a subscription to a church he said to the applicant—"No; go to your Bishops and ask them for a portion of their salaries; I shall give nothing."

I do not know how the hon. Member proposes to connect his remarks with the Estimates. It is altogether out of Order to enter into details on the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, and further it is out of Order to refer to Estimates which are not now before the House, but which have been already disposed of in the previous Session.

Perhaps you will allow me to explain that the Vote I was referring to is not in Class I., but is Vote 25 of Class II., which includes the salaries of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. On that Vote I wish to raise the point that the administration is bad, and that something ought to be done in the matter. I have no desire to go into the details of the Vote.

It would be irregular to go into any details on any Vote submitted in Committee; and I understood that the hon. Member was referring to the Vote for Windsor Park, which has already been passed.

said, he would give way at once, but that the difficulty was that part of the expenditure was in the Vote, and part was shown only in the Return in the Library. However, as he was out of Order he would not discuss the matter in detail now; but he trusted the points he desired to raise would be looked into. In the Vote there were a Receiver General at £900, an Assistant Receiver General at £400, and £100 for clerical assistance; and in the Library it was shown that there were charges for professional services amounting to £5,800. He was given to understand that the gentleman who received the rents was paid 4 per cent thereon; and if he received £1,000 he would, as a matter of course, keep £40 and pay over £960. By an Act of George IV. the Department had the right to sell land and to grant leases, and in the shape of leases some persons got uncommonly good bargains. One gentleman had 2½ perches of land, with conveniences thereon, and part of the Grand Stand at Ascot, for £1 10s. per annum; and, as they knew, a box on Ascot Grand Stand was worth £30 or £40 per annum. Then, the Royal Yacht Squadron had Cowes Castle for £225 per annum; whereas, as a speculation, he would give £500 a-year for it if he could get a long lease. He thought he had at least made out a primâ facie case for some sort of investigation. Perhaps the Secretary to the Treasury would agree to the appointment of a Committee next Session. He understood there was to be a Committee appointed to look into the spending Departments of the State, and perhaps this matter might be investigated by that Committee. The expenditure he had pointed out ought to be upon the Estimates for the year, and as it was not it was just possible it might be excluded from the purview of such a Committee.

said, that the several points raised by the hon. Member were quite susceptible of explanation. The hon. Member had made this subject his own, and had, indeed, made it an annual Motion. [MR. LABOUCHERE: I never brought it forward before in my life.] It would be annual. However, he had not the smallest fault to find with the manner in which the subject had been brought forward. As to the donations to churches and schools, the Treasury must accept the responsibility for them. The principle on which they were made was that those who managed the property recognized as devolving upon them the same duties and responsibilities as were generally recognized by private landowners, and on this ground it had always been the custom to contribute to the erection of churches and schools on the estates. This might or might not be wrong, but it was the custom. Much of the expenditure on Windsor Park was incurred in the maintenance of roads and in other expenses of like character, about which there could hardly be much question. With regard to the suggestion which really was the core of the hon. Member's speech—if there was any core in it at all—it would be obvious that he was not in a position, in the first place, to remark upon a Commission which had not yet been intro- duced to the House. It appeared, however, that the hon. Gentleman had got some information that a Commission was to be appointed to inquire into the great spending Departments. Although, for his part, he had no knowledge on the subject, he would say that he thought that such an inquiry as had been suggested by the hon. Member might very properly be undertaken by the Members of that Commission. Further than that he would only say—and he did not say it as a mere matter of form—that in consequence of what the hon. Gentleman had said he would endeavour to make himself acquainted with the details of that particular office; and if he found the facts to be as the hon. Member had stated them he would endeavour to effect some improvement. He hoped the House would now be allowed to go into Committee.

said, he felt bound to say, having recently held the Office which the hon. Gentleman (MR. Jackson) now held, that he was very pleased to hear an inquiry would be granted into the management of the Woods and Forests, because he believed it to be absolutely necessary in order to bring about effective Parliamentary control over the current expenditure of that Department. The Committee would be asked to vote £30,000 for this Department; but that by no means represented the expenditure, which would be much greater, and there were some very serious items in connection with the Crown lands. As a matter of fact this Department had borrowed between £200,000 and £300,000. He thought the House would agree that there should be an effective inquiry with a view to reducing the cost of management and increasing—as he was sure it could be increased—the income of that Department. He had himself intended next Session to move for the appointment of a Committee on the subject; but if the hon. Member thought the work could be better done by the Commission he had nothing to say.

said, he thought that the Constabulary had been employed unnecessarily in very many cases. He knew of a gentleman who had got himself "Boycotted," and then applied for police protection, his object being to become a stipendiary magistrate. That gentleman was himself a tenant, and while he was extorting his rents from his own tenants he did not pay his own rent. He made an arrangement with his landlady, and subsequently became a bankrupt; so that his landlady got no rent. That was the sort of men the police were protecting. The hon. Member also referred to his own imprisonment for using his influence with the people to protect his landlord.

The matter to which the hon. Gentleman is now referring has no relation to the Constabulary Vote.

said, he was alluding to evictions by the police, and what he would do in case it was proposed to evict him. He was intimating that it would take more than one policeman to turn him out. He had a very great respect for the Police Force themselves; but it was well known that the police behaved in the most arbitrary manner when engaged in suppressing prohibited meetings. He denounced the employment of constables as spies. One such, in his own part of the country, was relieved of the trammels of discipline in consideration of his labours in this direction, and was in the habit of coming to the barracks late at night and drunk. When asked where he got his drink from the reply was that he had been getting information. Those were the men to whom he objected.

, who was called to Order for irrelevancy, complained of the way in which the Constabulary were utilized in Ireland. They were employed to extract rack rents for the benefit of extravagant landlords living in London under the control of Jews. The Constabulary were used really by the classes against the masses. He hoped that the two democracies of England and Ireland would be enabled to say that the police would no longer act in this outrageous way in carrying out unjust evictions against an unfortunate people.

Order, order! The remarks of the hon. Member have nothing whatever to do with the Constabulary.

Of course, Sir, I bow to your ruling. I do not wish in any way to go outside the subject which has been brought on for discussion. I was trying as far as possible to confine my remarks to the employment of the police in evicting Irish tenants.

rose to call attention to an item in the Estimates—

I rise to Order. After the ruling you have already given, I submit that the hon. Member is not in Order in discussing, in detail, the items which appear in the Estimates.