House Of Commons
Monday, 5th March, 1888.
MINUTES.]—NEW WRIT ISSUED— For the Chichester Division of Sussex, v. The honble. Charles Henry Gordon Lennox, Earl of March, Chiltern Hundreds.
PUBLIC BILLS— Ordered—First Reading—Copyright (Musical Compositions)* [156]; "Religious Prosecutions Abolition* [158]; Timber Acts (Ireland) Amendment* [157].
Second Reading—East India (Purchase and Construction of Railways) [143], debate adjourned.
Questions
Poor Law (England And Wales)—Election Of Guardians (Nottingham)—Mr Metcalf
asked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether it is a fact that, at the last election of Poor Law Guardians at Nottingham, Mr. Metcalf was disqualified from serving by reason of his having been convicted of felony at the previous Winter Assizes; whether such act of felony was his having caused the death of a passenger in the street below by letting fall from a window of his warehouse a heavy tarpaulin, which was admittedly a pure accident; whether the Judge who tried the case (Mr. Justice Grantham) sentenced him to one day's imprisonment, to date from the opening of the Assizes, whereupon he was immediately released; and, whether, if under the present state of the law he is disqualified for life from serving again, he will take means to have the law altered, by giving the Judges the power of dispensing with the civil disqualifications in such cases as the above, where the felony has been one of a technical nature only, and making such alteration retrospective to provide for this and any similar cases?
Mr. Metcalf was convicted for feloniously killing and slaying Thomas Searcy, and the sentence, as stated in the Question, was one day's imprisonment. Section 18 of 4 & 5 Will. IV. c. 76 enacts that no person shall be eligible to hold any parish office, or have the management of the poor in any way whatever, who shall have been convicted of felony. The Board are of opinion that Mr. Metcalf, by operation of this provision, is disqualified for again serving the office of Guardian. The Board issued an Order declaring their decision to this effect in order to afford Mr. Metcalf the opportunity of having the Order brought up by certiorari and a decision of a Court obtained on the question. No proceedings, so far as the Board are aware, have been taken with that view. The case is, undoubtedly, a hard one; but I am afraid I cannot hold out any expectation that an alteration of the law will be made.
Post Office (Scotland)—Anonymous Letters To Lady Matheson
asked the Postmaster General, If anonymous letters to Lady Matheson, of the Lewis, have been repeatedly posted up for public inspection in the windows and on the walls of the Storno-way Post Office; and, if it is in accord- ance with the Post Office Regulations that Her Majesty's Post Offices should be used as placarding establishments to exhibit letters sent to private individuals?
What the hon. Member, no doubt, refers to was a drawing of a coffin sent to Lady Matheson, which she asked the Postmaster of Stornoway to put up in the window of his office. However infamous the conduct of the writer, the course taken by the Postmaster was irregular, and this has been pointed out to him.
Registrar Of Friendly Societies—Royal Liver Friendly Society
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Registrar of Friendly Societies in Scotland, on 30th November, 1870, certified that a Scottish branch of the Royal Liver Friendly Society had been established at Glasgow, and that its Rules were in conformity with law; whether it occurred knowingly, or through inadvertence, that, on 24th September, 1886, the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies registered new Rules of the Royal Liver Friendly Society, in which the registered Rules of the Scottish branch were ignored, and the rights and safeguards of its members, numbering in Glasgow alone between 60,000 and 70,000, and paying in subscriptions £32,000 a-year, were subverted; whether he is aware that the Committee of the Scottish branch complain that, under cover of its new Rules, the Central Committee are forcing upon the Scottish branch changes detrimental to the interests of the members of that branch; if the 1886 Rules were certified by the Registrar with a knowledge of their incompatibility with the earlier Rules of the Scottish branch, by what authority he registered and certified them; and, if he certified them through inadvertence, whether any steps will now be taken to secure the observance of the Rules of the Scottish branch of the Society registered in 1870?
(who replied) said: the Rules of 1886 were only registered in obedience to a mandamus from the High Court of Justice, obtained by the Society in September, 1886. The Registrar is not aware that any rights or safeguards of the Scottish members have been subverted. If the hon. Member will speak to me I will show him the correspondence.
Trade And Commerce—Convention With China—Trade With Thibet
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any stops have been taken since the last Session to give effect to that part of the Convention with China which relates to the opening up of trade with Thibet?
Her Majesty's Minister at Peking has contined to discuss the question with the Chinese Government; and he reported in October that they were unable at that time to decide definitely as to the opening of a trade post. The delay may, to a certain extent, be accounted for by the action of the Thibetans in maintaining an armed post beyond their frontier, on territory under the jurisdiction of the Indian Government. They have done this in defiance of the wishes of the Chinese Government; and steps are now being taken by the Indian Government to compel the Thibetans to withdraw.
Fishery Board (Scotland)—Trawling On The East Coast
asked the Lord Advocate, What measures the Fishery Board have taken, or can take, to enforce their prohibition against trawling within the area off the coast of Forfarshire and Fifeshire specified by them; whether it is the case, as alleged, that trawlers frequently trawl by night within the prohibited area in St. Andrew's Bay; and, whether the Board will take such measures as will make their prohibition of trawling within the specified area effective?
Her Majesty's gunboat Jackal is at present watching the fisheries on the East Coast of Scotland, and her commander has special instructions to enforce the bye-laws against beam-trawling in the prescribed area. Allegations have been made of contraventions in St. Andrew's Bay; but the inquiries by the fishery officers have failed to obtain any evidence of the fact. Although the officers have requested the fishermen to report any case of contravention, no case has been reported. The Board are doing all in their power to prevent the contravention, and will continue to do so.
Prisons (Ireland)—Mrs Ryan, A Prisoner In Limerick Gaol
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether on inquiry he finds it is a fact that Mrs. Ryan, a prisoner in Limerick Gaol for contempt, was at the time of her arrest last June nursing an unweaned infant, and was separated from it; and, whether, considering the length of her imprisonment and the needs of several young children, he will ascertain whether leniency can be shown in this case?
(who replied) said: I understand that at the time of Mrs. Ryan's arrest her youngest child was 12 months old, and was left in charge of an adult sister. It is, of course, still open to the Ryans to come to a reasonable settlement with the Court, in which case I have no doubt the Court is quite prepared to exercise its clemency. As I have already explained, the Executive Government have no power to interfere.
I would be very much obliged if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would say whether or not Mrs. Ryan was forcibly separated from this child, which was scarcely a month old?
I think the child must have been more than a month old, because her husband was in prison for 12 months before.
Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say that the Lord Lieutenant has no power to interfere?
I think the Executive has no power.
Subsequently,
said: In consequence of the unsympathetic answer of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, I beg to give Notice that I shall take the earliest possible opportunity of calling attention to the harsh treatment of Mrs. Ryan.
South Africa—Restoration Of Usibepu
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, When the Papers relating to the restoration of Usibepu in South Africa will be laid upon the Table?
(who replied) said: Papers relating to the affairs of Zululand are in a forward state of preparation, and will include Correspondence respecting the re-instatement of Usibepu in his territory. It is expected that the Papers will be ready in a fortnight or three weeks.
Agricultural Department Of The Privy Council—Commission On Agricultural And Dairy Schools
asked the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, Whether it is intended to publish the Evidence given before the Departmental Commission on Agricultural and Dairy Schools; and, if so, when it may be expected?
, in reply, said, the Evidence was now in print, and would be laid before Parliament as soon as possible.
asked, what sum the Government proposed to grant in aid of Dairy Schools?
said, he could not answer at that moment.
Law And Justice—Hereford Quarter Sessions—Severe Sentences On Boys
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he is aware that four boys, aged respectively 12, 10, 10, and 8 years, pleaded guilty to a charge of larceny at the Hereford Quarter Sessions, and were sentenced by the Recorder to be imprisoned for 10 days, with hard labour, then to be whipped, and then to be confined in a reformatory for five years, two of them having already been in prison for 28 days previous to the Quarter Sessions; and, whether, in view of the fact that the prosecutors have signed a Petition for a mitigation of this sentence, stating that the offences were, in reality, trivial, and that the members of the Grand Jury have also signed a like Petition, stating that they would not have found a true bill had they known that such a severe sentence would have been passed, and that not one of the boys has ever been charged with any previous offence, he can see his way, now that they have served their term of imprisonment and been whipped, to remit the remainder of their sentence?
Yes, Sir; the facts are as stated, except that the offence cannot be deemed trivial, being nothing less than an artfully contrived robbery effected by breaking into a shop and stealing from the till. Two of the prisoners had also been previously fined for small offences. I have, however, ordered the discharge of one of the boys (Morgan), he being, in my opinion, on account of his tender years, an unfit subject for a reformatory. I have ordered that the cases of the other three boys shall be brought up for my consideration in July next.
Education Department—Inspected Day Schools—Instruction In Agriculture
asked the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, How many of the 19,022 day schools in England and Wales, inspected in 1886, are situated in the rural districts; in how many of the above 19,022 inspected schools did agriculture in "simple conversational lessons," or as a "class subject," form any part of the instruction of infants, and of older scholars; and, whether, in parts of the country where farming can fairly be said to be the "leading trade of the district," the Education Department would, in future, instruct Inspectors to require that lessons in agriculture shall be a necessary condition for earning the Merit Grant for infants, Article 106 (b), and the grant for class subjects. Article 109 (f)?
The Education Department have not the figures my hon. Friend asks for, nor do I think that his proposal to make the conditions of the Merit Grant more onerous, and to further restrict the liberty of teachers as to class subjects, would meet with much favour; but the whole question as to how the knowledge of agriculture can best be promoted in elementary schools is engaging the serious attention of the Government.
Employers' Liability Acts—Death Of A Girl At A Rope Factory
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Is he aware that a girl named Elizabeth Sullivan was killed in the rope factory of Messrs. Frost and Co., Commercial Road, East, in the beginning of February of the present year; has information reached him that Messrs. Frost and Co. were warned on many occasions by their employés as to their liability to injury in consequence of the unprotected and dangerous state of the machinery, and that the space between the machines is so narrow that girls working in this factory have to tie themselves in sacking to prevent their clothes from catching; and, whether this factory has been duly inspected in the manner provided in the Employers' Liability Acts?
The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative, and to the second paragraph in the negative. The Factory Inspector drew the particular attention of Messrs. Frost to the danger to be apprehended; and at his instigation they consented to adopt a plan for fencing the machinery which would obviate the danger, and which the hon. Member will find described in the last Report of the Factory Inspector. Unfortunately, only part of the machines had been fitted in the way suggested when the fatal accident occurred. The factory has been regularly inspected under the Factory Act. I may add that the makers of the machines have agreed, at the request of the Factory Inspector, to consider whether they cannot fit all similar machines in future with the proposed fencing.
Palace Of Westminster—Electric Communication Between The House And Library
asked the First Commissioner of Works, If be proposes to take any steps this Session for establishing electric communication between the Library and the House, so as to inform Members occupied in the Library of the progress of debate, and the names of speakers?
The question of the establishment of electrical communication between the House and the Library and other parts of the building has been considered; but there has not been, up to the present time, sufficient unanimity of feeling among hon. Members in favour of the proposal to justify me in going on with it.
Irish Land Commission—Wexford
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is a fact that a large number of cases are awaiting hearing before the Land Commission in the County of Wexford, and how soon a Commission will sit in that county?
(who replied) said: The Land Commissioners inform me that it is a fact that a large number of cases is awaiting before them in the County Wexford, and that the Sub-Commission will commence its sittings in that county about the middle of next month.
Church Of England And The Ecclesiastical Commissioners—Property And Revenues
asked the Secretary of State fur the Home Department, When the Return, ordered on the 20th of June, 1887, of the property and revenues of the Church of England and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under the several heads specified in the Address moved on that day, will be presented to the House?
(who replied) said: Every effort is being made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to complete this Return as soon as possible. They cannot, however, yet fix a date when it will be ready. Much correspondence and lengthy explanations by letter with incumbents who have given imperfect answers to the queries issued are necessary for the perfect preparation of the Return; and this correspondence, as well as the general supervision of the work, falls on the regular staff of the Department, who are already fully engaged with their ordinary duties.
In reply to a further Question by Mr. CHANNING,
said, the Return would be of great magnitude. In 1832 work of a similar kind occupied a Royal Commission specially appointed with an independent staff for no less than three years.
The Colonies—Constitution Of The Executive
asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will lay upon the Table a Return showing the constitution of the Executive in each Colony and, in the case of Colonies having Representative Assemblies, the constitution of those Assemblies, the number of Members, the number of electors, and the qualifications requisite for Members and for electors?
Except as to certain details, the information asked for by the hon. Member is given in the Colonial Office List, which is published annually; but there will be no objection to request the Colonial Governments to furnish the desired Returns.
Law And Police (Metropolis)—Clapham Common
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If he will lay upon the Table the Correspondence between the Home Office, the Police Authorities, and the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Caine) with regard to the references to the police on Clapham Common, in his speech in this House on July 5, 1887; and also the Reports of the inquiry into the subject conducted by the Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Munro?
I should have been happy to comply with the request of the hon. Member but for this reason—namely, that in the course of the inquiry instituted by the Commissioners of Police private persons were interviewed and information of a confidential character was given by them which I should not be justified in disclosing. I shall, however, be very glad to show all the Papers to the hon. Member himself.
South Africa—Railway At Delagoa Bay
asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government have had their attention directed to the construction of a railway from Delagoa Bay to the hills bounding the Northern Transvaal territory; and, whether, considering the strategical importance of the railway to the Cape Colonies, and the existing ownership of Delagoa Bay, the Government will enter into negotiations with the Portuguese Government for their concession by purchase to Great Britain?
inquired, whether it was not a fact that the proposed railway would start from a place where a large expenditure would be required for a harbour and end in a mountain, where no one could get at it?
The question of acquiring an interest in the railway from Lorenzo Marquez towards Pretoria has not been entertained by Her Majesty's Government, because it does not traverse and it is not intended to enter British territory. It is difficult to conceive on what grounds Her Majesty's Government could acquire possession of a railway in such circumstances. Any British interests concerned must be those of the South African Colonies; and Her Majesty's Government cannot assume their desire for the step which the hon. Member for Sunderland contemplates.
Metropolis—Safety Of The Streets
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, in view of the number of accidents and deaths which occur annually in the streets of London, owing in some cases to the excessive pace at which vehicles of all sorts are driven, and to the absence of sufficient control over the traffic in the more crowded thoroughfares, he will take steps to secure the safety of pedestrians in using the streets of the Metropolis; whether the majority of the accidents happen at crossings, and whether the number of "refuges" could be increased; and, whether, when a fatal accident has occurred, any adequate means exist to make the driver amenable when he has been the cause of it?
As the hon. Member is probably aware, constables have been for some years stationed at most of the principal crossings in the Metropolis for the purpose of controlling the traffic and assisting pedestrians. It has not been brought to my notice that this duty has been insufficiently performed; on the contrary, I am informed by the Commissioners of Police that few accidents happen at crossings. The question of providing refuges lies with the Vestries, to whom any complaint as to inadequate accommodation in this respect should be addressed. I am informed that the practice now is that when any driver has been the cause of a fatal accident, he is brought before a magistrate, and then held to bail or bound over on his recognizances pending the result of a Coroner's inquest. I have received no complaint that the present means are inadequate for making careless drivers amenable.
Post Office—Mail Cart From Higham Ferrers To Northampton
asked the Postmaster General, Whether he is aware that, about four weeks ago, tenders were invited for running a mail cart from Higham Ferrers to Northampton on Sunday evenings, and from Northampton to Higham Ferrers on Monday mornings; whether Mr. Charles Groome, of Higham Ferrers, tendered to do the work, with a suitable horse, for £38; whether the surveyor inspected the horse, and pronounced him well fitted for the work; whether, two days after, the tender of another man for £47 was accepted; whether Mr. Groome is a ratepayer of Higham Ferrers, has been for 15 years a member of the school board, has been for two years a waywarden for the parish, and is one of the election auditors for the borough; whether, when, some time ago, tenders were invited for carrying the mails daily from Northampton to Higham Ferrers, Mr. Groome's tender was rejected, and a tender £5 higher than his accepted; whether, in both cases, Mr. Groome offered as his bondsmen two of the most substantial ratepayers of the borough; and, whether he can state the reasons for which Mr. Groome's tender was declined and a higher tender accepted?
It is the fact that the mail cart service referred to between Higham Ferrers and Northampton was thrown open to public tender a few weeks ago; that Mr. Groome tendered at £38 a-year; and that a higher tender than Mr. Groome's was accepted. No Postmaster General has ever held himself bound to accept the lowest or any tender; and in deciding to accept another tender than Mr. Groome's I considered I was making the best arrangement possible for a satisfactory performance of the service. In reference to the non-acceptance of a tender from Mr. Groome on a previous occasion, I find that Mr. Groome tendered with another person for the Northampton and Higham Ferrers daily service; but that preference was given to a tender of the same amount from a widow whose husband had held contracts from the Department for many years, and given much satisfaction.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Groome is one of the most active Liberals in the district?
No, Sir; I am not aware of that.
Reformatory Schools—The Thirtieth Report
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to the Thirtieth Report on Reformatory Schools, in which it is said that—
and, if this is the case, whether the Government will insure efficient teaching power in all such schools by teachers who are capable and anxious to do their duty?"Where the teaching power is sufficient, and the teachers are capable and anxious to do their duty, the results are satisfactory;"
, in reply, said, the question of securing more efficient teaching in the schools referred to had been for some time under the consideration of the Government, and the Bill about to be introduced would deal with the subject.
The Australian Colonies—Extermination Of Rabbits-M Pasteur
asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether his attention has been called to a statement that M. Pasteur is sending by the mail steamer Cuzco a supply of microbes des cholera de poules for the extermination of rabbits in the Australian Colonies; and, whether, having regard to the great danger that this poisonous matter may be injurious to sheep and thus to human beings also wherever Australian mutton is used, he will warn the Colonial Governments of the possible consequences of allowing M. Pasteur's instructions to be carried out?
This is a matter in which Her Majesty's Government cannot interfere with the discretion of the Australian Governments, who, however, are fully aware of the objection which has been raised as to the possibility of the proposed method proving injurious to other animals besides those which it is desired to exterminate. Whether or not that objection is well-founded is a question on which I offer no opinion.
Copyhold Act, 1887—Clause 30
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether the Land Commissioners have framed and published the scale of compensation referred to in Clause 30 of "The Copyhold Act, 1887;" and, if so, where it is to be obtained; and, if not, when the scale is likely to be published?
The Land Commissioners have framed the scales of compensation referred to in Clause 30 of the Copyhold Act, 1887, and these can now be obtained by application at the Land Office.
Royal Irish Constabulary—The Disturbances At Mitchelstown
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether an inquiry is now proceeding at Cork as to the conduct of certain officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary on the occasion of the shooting of several persons at Mitchelstown in September last; and, whether it is an invariable custom that representatives of the public Press are admitted to such police inquiries under certain defined conditions; and, if so, why this custom has not been adhered to in this case?
(who replied) said: A Departmental inquiry is now being held in Cork into the conduct of members of the Constabulary on the occasion of the riot and inquest at Mitchelstown. Departmental inquiries are throughout the entire Public Service regarded as of a private nature, and representatives of the public Press are never admitted. Their proceedings are purely of a preliminary nature, with a view to ascertain whether further action is called for.
Admiralty—The "Britannia" Training Ship
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, The age at which boys are now entered on board the Britannia; whether any examination of the cadets has been held during the past year; and, whether the Reports of the Examiners can be laid upon the Table before the Statement on the Navy Estimates?
The limit of age of cadets entering the Britannia at the present time is 14; but after June next it will be extended to 14½. Examinations are held twice in each year, and the results are forwarded to the Admiralty. They are held by examiners appointed from the Univer- sities, who are changed every two years. I shall be glad to give the hon. Member any information he requires; but I do not think that these Reports are of sufficient public importance to justify the expense of printing them.
Criminal Law And Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887—Prosecutions Against Newsvendors
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether prosecutions against the news-vendors, J. D. Brosnan and John Green, at Killarney, were withdrawn by the Crown a couple of days before the 29th February; whether two days after the 29th February Pat Ferriter was sentenced at Dingle to three months' imprisonment for soiling copies of United Ireland; how many, and what, terms of imprisonment has Ferriter got under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act; and, what magistrates sentenced him on each occasion?
(who replied) said: The prosecutions against Green and Brosnan were withdrawn at Killarney by the Crown on the 21st of February. Ferriter was sentenced to three months' imprisonment on the 2nd of March at Dingle Petty Sessions before Messrs. Irwin, R.M., and Roche, R.M., for selling newspapers containing reports of alleged meetings of an unlawful Association in the County Kerry. There are two other convictions against this man in which the proceedings were also conducted under the recent Statute—one in December, 1887, when he was sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment for an assault on the police, the case being tried before Mr. Roche, R.M., and Captain Welch, R.M.; the other, in January, 1888, likewise for assaulting the police, when he was sentenced to seven days' imprisonment, Messrs. Irwin, R.M., and Roche, R.M., forming the Court.
Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman know any of the circumstances of these assaults on the police? Does he know that this was a lame man who was sent to gaol for assaulting the police; and was not the assault merely a constructive one, the man being charged merely with forcing his way into a meeting. Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us why the prosecutions against Green and Brosnan for the same offence were abandoned on the 21st of February; and why the prosecution of Ferriter was commenced a few days afterwards?
I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an answer to the last Question. I do not know anything at all about the nature of the assaults on the police for which Ferriter was imprisoned.
May I ask, whether this is the same man who was sentenced to two months' imprisonment for shouting out to the police reporter at a meeting, "Take that down, Stringer?"
I have no knowledge of the facts.
Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman explain to us why it is that proceedings are taken against the newsvendors whilst the publishers of the newspapers are not interfered with?
I think if the right hon. Gentleman studies the Act he will find ample reason for proceeding against the newsvendors.
That is not the point. It may be as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says; but are there not ample reasons for proceeding equally against the publishers of papers containing reports of these suppressed meetings?
I think I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to give Notice of the Question. He has been Chief Secretary himself.
Quite so; but when I was Chief Secretary this Act did not exist.
Subsequently,
said: As I see the Chief Secretary is now in his place, I would ask him, with regard to this Question that I have asked, whether his personal attention has been directed to this case of Ferriter; and will he kindly explain what is the policy of sentencing this man Ferriter to three months' imprisonment for selling newspapers concurrently with the withdrawal of prosecutions against two men in Killarney for the same offence; and, whether the barony in which this has occurred has not been the quietest barony in Kerry; and, whether a murder or a serious outrage has ever occurred in this barony?
Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to put his Question on the Notice Paper.
Irish Land Commission—Appeals From Sub-Commission, Co Clare
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware that in the year 1885, Stephen Collins, Thomas Collins, John Quealy, and Pat M'Mahon, in the Kildysart Union, County Clare, lodged appeals from the Sub-Commissioners to have their judicial rent fixed; whether these appeals have been yet heard or even listed for hearing at the next sitting of the Commission; if not, why not; and, whether he is aware that there are many cases lodged later than these four in the same Union listed for hearing at the coming Commission?
(who replied) said: The Land Commissioners state they will take a little time to investigate the circumstances referred to in the Question. They hope, however, to be able to furnish a reply in a day or two.
War Office (Contracts)—Works To Be Executed In Ireland
asked the Secretary of State for War, If there is any reason to be dissatisfied with the results of the system of limited competition which has hitherto been the usual practice in arranging contracts for works of large extent executed in Ireland under the War Department, and why is it being departed from in the case of the proposed new barracks at Grangegorman, Dublin, for which an unlimited competition has been advertised; whether contractors proposing to tender elect the surveyor to take out the quantities of the works on their behalf; and if in an unlimited competition the votes of the persons bonâ fide intending to send in tenders may be swamped by those of others who have no such intention, and for whom a surveyor might find it worth while to pay the deposit of £5 5s. each, entitling them to vote; if in the newspapers containing the notice asking for the names of persons desiring to tender for those works, an advertisement appears, directly under the War Department notice, from a Mr. Strud-wick, of London, soliciting votes for the office of surveyor, in which it is stated, as an inducement to vote for him, that the quantities would be taken out in London; if this statement is correct; and, if so, how was the information communicated to Mr. Strudwick; and, whether, considering that this unlimited competition will place surveyors and contractors in Ireland at a disadvantage, he will state the reason for the proposed alteration of the usual terms of competition?
(who replied) said: The prices of building contracts have ranged considerably higher in Ireland than in England; and as the Grangegorman Barracks constitute an extensive work, to a value of perhaps £60,000, the Secretary of State, with a view to obtaining the best contract for the public interest, has thought it desirable to resort to the usual practice of an open competition, rather than to the limited competition which has for some time prevailed for buildings in Ireland. Contractors proposing to tender elect the surveyor, and they pay a deposit on the amount of the contract according to a scale laid down in the Royal Engineer Regulations. Considering the amount of the deposit, such a transaction as is suggested does not seem very probable. An advertisement has appeared from Mr. Strudwick, who was, no doubt, aware that the quantities for large contracts, of which the designs have been prepared in London, are almost invariably taken out there. It is not apparent that this practice puts any class of contractors at a disadvantage.
asked, if the hon. Gentleman was aware that only in one other case were the quantities taken out for a large Irish work in London?
said, he did not know; but that as the plans were made out in London he supposed the quantities would be taken out there too.
War Office—Chelsea Hospital—Augmented Pensions
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, If he is now in a position to state whether a decision has been arrived at in regard to certain cases in which pensions having been augmented by the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, in recognition of exceptional good conduct, such augmentations have been cancelled by the War Office; and, whether the small additions conceded in such instances will now be confirmed?
Yes, Sir; the additional pensions referred to would be confirmed.
War Office—Administration Of Ordnance Factories
asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, under the new system of administration of the Ordnance Factories, regard has been had to the recommendations of Lord Morley's Committee, which not only enjoined that the Manufacturing Departments "should be placed under the control of a single head," but that such Controller should reside at Woolwich; whether it is true that the now Director of Ordnance Factories has been furnished with an office and clerical staff in Pall Mall; whether a considerable portion of his official business is transacted at the War Office; and, whether there are any sufficient reasons for these deviations from Lord Morley's recommendations?
The recommendation of Lord Morley's Committee is correctly quoted by the hon. Member. My intention is that the Director General of Ordnance Factories should transact the business of the Ordnance Factories at Woolwich, and give close personal superintendence by his presence on the spot. A room has been assigned to him at the War Office, because his duties necessarily bring him there at intervals to consult with other officials; but his permanent office is at Woolwich, and not in London.
Parliament—Private Bill Legislation—A J Oint Committee
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, How soon Her Majesty's Government will invite both Houses of Parliament to appoint the proposed Joint Committee on Private Bill Legislation; and, whether, pending the Report of that Committee, he will propose to amend Standing Order No. XXXV., so as to enable Private Bill Committees to sit till half-past 3 or later, notwithstanding the sitting of the House?
I hope to propose the appointment of a Joint Committee on Private Bill Legislation on Monday. The right hon. Baronet will find on the Paper a Notice of Motion in my name which, I think, will meet the object he has in view.
The Paris Exhibition (1889)—Representation Of British Industries
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he has observed that a meeting has been held at the Mansion House, under the presidency of the Lord Mayor, to decide what steps shall be taken to secure an adequate representation of British arts, manufactures, and industries at the forthcoming Exhibition in Paris; and, whether Her Majesty's Government adheres to its resolution, that this country will not be officially represented at the Exhibition, as was the case at previous French Exhibitions?
I have observed that a meeting has taken place at the Mansion House with regard to the forthcoming Exhibition in Paris; but Her Majesty's Government do not propose to make any change in the course which was announced to the House last year in reference to this matter.
War Office—Military And Naval Intelligence Departments
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he could state to the House the date of the establishment of the Military Intelligence Department of the War Office; the date of the establishment of the Naval Intelligence Department of the Admiralty; the actual expenditure incurred for the Military and Naval Intelligence Departments respectively since their establishment down to the end of the financial year, 1886–7; the actual expenditure incurred for our Military Attachés abroad between the date of the establishment of the Military Intelligence Department and the end of the financial year, 1886–7; and the actual expenditure incurred for our Naval Attachés abroad between the date of the establishment of the Naval Intelligence Department and the end of the financial year, 1886–7?
If my hon. and gallant Friend will move for the information he wants, it will be granted as an unopposed Return.
Parliament—New Rules Of Procedure—Unfinished Bills
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, in view of the prospects of legislation by private Members having been so much curtailed by the New Rules of Debate, the Government would be disposed to consider favourably any proposal for enabling Bills which have passed a Second Reading or later stage in one Session to be taken up at the same stage in the next Session. He wished further to ask whether the practice was not adopted by eight Foreign Parliaments?
, in reply, said, he was not prepared to say whether such a Rule prevailed in eight Foreign Parliaments, not having had Notice of the Question. With regard to the rest of the Question, his impression was that the New Rules would not in any way curtail the privileges of private Members, but that they would tend to facilitate the progress of those measures which Members brought before the House. Under those circumstances, he did not think it desirable, at the present time at all events, to propose any change in the Parliamentary procedure with regard to Bills before the House, with the view to their being taken up in the ensuing Session at the point at which they were dropped.
Charity Commissioners—The Free School At Hitchin And John Rand's Charity
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, When the schemes of the Charity Commissioners, laid upon the Table of the House of Commons on Monday, 20th February, relating to the Free School, Hitchin, Herts, and the John Hand's Charity for the poor of Holwell, Bedfordshire, will be printed; and, whether full opportunity will be afforded for their discussion before they are confirmed by Parliament?
I am informed that the Papers alluded to will be circulated to-day, and the hon. Member will, doubtless, have an opportunity later for discussing these schemes.
Record Office—Removal Of Public Records From Westminster
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records, in which it is stated that 34 van loads of public records, described as valuable, which were removed from the Stone Tower adjoining Westminster Hall, are deposited in buildings—
and, whether any steps have been, or are being, taken to ensure the safety of such valuable official documents?"Old, dark, ill-ventilated, rickety, and unprotected from fire from intervening dwelling houses; "
The value of the public records alluded to is, of course, comparative with that of many other more valuable documents in the keeping of the Department. The Treasury have not as yet seen their way to laying before the House the Vote that would be necessary to place all the documents in absolute safety. I am sorry to say that there are some portions of the building in which the records are kept that are dark and old and ill-ventilated.
The Civil Service—Political Associations—Sir Alfred Slade
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Sir Alfred Slade, of the Inland Revenue Department, while serving as such, has been not only a Master in the Grand Council of the Primrose League, but also Vice Chairman, and member of the General Purposes Committee and of the Finance Committee; and, whether this brings him within the Departmental Rule against being member of a Political Association?
Sir Alfred Slade, as a Trustee of some of the funds of the Primrose League, is ex officio a member of the Committee of the League; but I am informed that he has abstained from taking part in any of the proceedings of the League which would lead to an infringement of the Rule laid down by the Inland Revenue Department for its officers—namely, that they are to abstain from taking part in, or speaking at, any public political meeting. I may add that it is the duty of the Government to see that every officer of the Department complies absolutely with the conditions laid down.
I wish to know, whether it would be perfectly competent for any member of the Civil Service, in this or any other Department, to belong to the Home Rule organization without incurring censure from his official superiors so long as he does not take part in a public meeting?
[No reply.]
I will renew that Question to-morrow.
Metropolitan Police—Alleged Assault
asked a Question of which he had given the Secretary of State for the Home Department private Notice—namely, Whether in the case of the man Coleman alleged to have been assaulted by the police after he was in actual custody in Bow Street Police Station, on the 13th of November, and which case the right hon. Gentleman stated on Friday last had been sprung upon the Government and the House by him (Mr. Bradlaugh), without any previous Notice or proceedings, it was not the fact that evidence on oath was given as to this assault before Mr. Vaughan, in open Court at Bow Street, the Treasury Solicitor being present; that a summons for the assault was granted by Mr. Vaughan against the police constable on sworn information duly filed in Court; whether, Cole-man being a prisoner, an order from the Home Office authorities was applied for for the attendance and examination of Coleman at the hearing of the Court; whether, on the return of the summons before Mr. Bridge, the magistrate sitting at Bow Street, half an hour's adjournment was not asked for on the ground that Coleman's solicitor was then actually speaking in another Court in another case, and that Coleman himself had not yet been brought up from prison; whether counsel for the Government did not oppose such brief adjournment; whether the summons against the police was thereupon dismissed with £ 10 costs, without any hearing and in the actual absence of both Coleman and his attorney; whether such of the sworn informations referred to had not been in the possession of the Solicitor to the Treasury for more than two months; and, whether such information had not been submitted to the Director of Prosecutions or to the Law Officers of the Crown?
I have privately informed the hon. Member that I was unable to answer the Question today. Indeed, I never heard the terms of the Question until the hon. Member read it just now. The moment his Notice arrived it was sent over to the Solicitor to the Treasury; but I have not yet been able to obtain the information asked for.
The reason why I did not postpone the Question was that there was a direct challenge of fact from the right hon. Gentleman on Friday to myself.
The Navy Estimates
inquired, When the Navy Estimates would be circulated? observing that they were very late this year.
The only reason for the delay is that the form in which the Estimates are to be presented has had to be recast, and they will contain more information than they did previously. Consequently, there has been a delay on the part of the printer. The printer undertakes, however, that they shall be circulated to-morrow, and we propose to take the Navy Estimates on Monday.
The Civil Service Estimates
asked, When it was proposed to go into Committee on the Civil Service Estimates?
It will be necessary to take a Vote on Account of the Civil Service next week; but the Civil Service Estimates will not be taken in detail until after Easter.
Parliament—Duration Of Speeches
I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury a Question of which I have given him private Notice—namely, Whether it is not a fact that more than half of the whole time allotted to the Trafalgar Square debate was occupied by five Members, three of whom made two speeches each; whether he is aware that a large number of hon. Members who desired to address the House were prevented from doing so through lack of time; and whether, seeing that how the hours allotted to debate are limited, he will make an earnest appeal to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to put what they have to say as concisely as possible, in order to give more opportunities to a larger number of hon. Members to take part in the debates of this House? I wish to explain that I have no personal feeling in this matter, as I was not one of those who desired to take part in the debate of last week.
I have not made any careful calculation of the time occupied by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in the debate on Thursday and Friday last; but it undoubtedly was the case that some of the speeches were lengthy ones. As regards one or two of the speakers, it was almost unavoidable that they should be so, for when an indictment is brought against the Government the indictment must be answered; and both those who bring the indictment and those who answer it must, I am afraid, speak at great length. But if I have influence in the House, I will certainly use it in the direction to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I believe it would be more acceptable to the House that, as a rule, speeches should be concise and terse, and should be generally condensed, and that hon. Members who desire reasonably to take part in. The debate should be able to do so; and I will use any influence which I may possess to attain the object of the hon. Member.
asked whether, after the sympathetic reply of the right hon. Gentleman to the Question of the hon. Member, he would consider the desirability of the Government bringing forward the Rule which stood in his (Mr. Caine's) name limiting the duration of speeches to 20 minutes?
We should have great reluctance in imposing on the House any restrictions which can by any possibility be avoided; or to impose on the House by Rule anything which we can attain by appealing to the good sense of the House. I venture to hope that the suggestions which have been made in the direction of shortening the speeches in this House will have the effect desired by hon. Members, and that it will not be necessary to lay down positive and absolute Rules as to the length of time which should be occupied.
Business Of The House
In reply to Sir UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLE-WORTH (Lancashire, Clitheroe),
said, immediately Supply was concluded, the Local Government Bill and the Budget would be introduced.
said, the right hon. Gentleman gave a reply from which two deductions might be made. He said that when the Votes in Supply had been gone through, the Local Government Bill and the Budget would be introduced. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Budget would be taken before Easter?
said, he had good reason to hope that it would be possible for the Government to bring forward the Budget before Easter; but, in the absence of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he could not say on what day it would be introduced.
Commons—Pursuing Game
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the sentence passed on the 29th of February by the Maidenhead magistrates on William Cartland and John Herbert, of £1 and 10s., or 14 and seven days' hard labour respectively, for the offence of trespassing on Pinkney's Green Common in search of game, with two dogs, the only evidence against them being that of one gamekeeper, who stated that they beat some bushes on the common, turned up a hare, and that when the dogs ran after it they did not call them off; whether the prisoners declared that they called the dogs off, and that they had no intention of searching for game, but were merely walking across the Common; whether, as the men are poor, Cartland being obliged to get a week allowed in which to raise the money, he will advise the magistrates to modify the sentence; or, if either of them go to prison in default, he will order their release; and, whether a freeholder and commoner on Pinkney's Green Common is liable to be arrested by a gamekeeper if, when walking over the Common with a dog, it raises a hare, and he does not at once call it off?
I have received a letter from the Chairman of the Maidenhead Bench, from which I gather that both men were seen by the gamekeeper of the gentleman who has manorial rights over the Common beating the furze bushes near the edge of the common with sticks for 20 minutes. They had two dogs with them. They found a hare, and both dogs and men gave chase, when the keeper showed himself. Neither of them was arrested by the keeper; but they appeared on summons in the ordinary way. Cart-land had several previous convictions against him. It does not seem to me to be a case which calls for any interference on my part.
asked whether commoners had a right to walk over a common with dogs?
Clearly they have—supposing there is a right of way.
Burgh Police And Health (Scotland) Bill
asked the Lord Advocate, When he proposed to proceed with the second reading of the Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill?
, in reply, said, the Bill had been before the House on a good many occasions, and he proposed to take it up that night.
appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was desirable that a Bill of 250 pages and 500 clauses, which was only delivered to Members on Saturday last, should be brought on the day after it was pre- sented; and, whether he would not grant Members interested in the subject a little reasonable delay to consider the Bill?
said, the Bill would not be brought on that night; but the hon. Gentleman was aware that it was chiefly a consolidating Bill. It was an old Bill, which had been before Parliament for several Sessions; but it would not be taken that night.
said, the Bill raised a great number of important matters about disease and other controversial points, on which there ought to be an opportunity for discussion. When would the Bill be brought forward?
said, it would not be taken this week.