said, that when the Committee adjourned on Tuesday, some misunderstanding had arisen with reference to the Amendment. In the course of the discussion some words were addressed to him which, in justice to himself, he thought he should refer to. He must frankly admit that he was somewhat irritated by what had occurred on Tuesday afternoon. He had moved an Amendment in as few words as he could, being desirous to save the time of the Committee, which Amendment was supported by the hon. Member for the Blackpool Division of Lancashire (Sir Matthew White Ridley), the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Universities of Edinburgh and St. Andrew's (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald), followed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) and other hon. Members, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld), who gave a qualified support to the Amendment, as he desired that the transfer should be effected by means of a Provisional Order, instead of an Order in Council. The Government had intimated their intention of accepting his Amendment, and had agreed generally to the proposal made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax, and it looked as if something in the nature of the Amendment was to be adopted. Whereupon occurred almost unusual incident—an hon. Member sitting on the Front Opposition Bench (Mr. T. Dyke Arland), who had not heard a word of the Debate, interposed with a speech which led to a prolonged wrangle, which terminated in a Motion to report Progress being carried. Now he (Mr. Chaplin) had said as little as possible on the former occasion in support of his Amendment, as he was anxious to save the time of the Committee; but the Amendment was now in a different form upon the Paper, and perhaps the Committee would allow him to explain more fully the object he had in view in moving it. In the first place, he was most anxious to dispel the idea that there was the slightest desire or intention on his part, or on the part of hon. Members on that side of the House, to do what had been called by Gentlemen opposite, revolutionize the principle of the Bill. However that might be, he pointed out that a blind trust in the people was not of itself sufficient to make a Bill of this complicated character into a working measure. They wanted to make it a thoroughly workable and business-like enactment, and he protested that the clause as it was now drawn was not likely to attain that object, and it was in order to ensure the end he had in view that he moved the Amendment now standing in his name. The clause as it stood proposed to transfer by Statute certain powers, duties, and liabilities of Secretaries of State, Board of Trade, and Local Government Board to the County Councils. It further proposed to transfer certain other powers which were at present vested in the Privy Council and the Education Department and other Departments, as well as certain powers at the present time enjoyed by certain of the counties themselves, some of which were exceedingly important, and involved the expenditure of enormous sums of money. Now, the clause proposed to do all this, subject only to the Proviso contained in the 3rd sub-section of the clause. He wanted the Committee to consider how the clause would work, and he must point out, in the first place, that the powers which it proposed to transfer under the 1st subsection were very considerable. There were powers vested in the Local Govern-Board, some of them comparatively unimportant; others again were of great importance, and then there were the powers of the Board of Trade, which in his judgment, were of supreme importance, and which it was most undesirable should be transferred by Statute. The powers of the Board of Trade differed considerably from the other powers to which he had referred, and would be found by reference to the second part of the Schedule. They were as follows—The General Pier and Harbour Acts, The Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, The Tramways Act, 1870, and the Electric Lighting Act, 1882. Those powers were now carried into effect under the admirable Staff now possessed by the Board of Trade, a Staff of great experience, and one under which what was called political continuity, so desirable in matters of this kind, was very successfully insured. As an illustration of the admirable way in which the duties of the Department had been performed, he would like to call attention to the fact that, out of 256 Provisional Orders moved by the Board of Trade with regard to tramways, 242 had been actually carried; out of 279 Provisional Orders in the matter of Gas and Water, 276 had been carried—that was to say, out of a total of 535 Provisional Orders, 518 had been carried. That was very strong testimony to the admirable way in which these matters had been dealt with by the Department up to the present time. Now, on the supposition that the clause were carried in its present form, and that the Bill, as he hoped would be the case, passed into law during the present Session, all these powers of the Board of Trade would cease, and would be transferred to the new County Councils. But, further, before the County Councils could be in a position to act, various promoters in different parts of the country might, and very probably would, want powers for Harbours, Piers, Gas, Water, and Tramways, and he would ask who was going to do the work, because it must be borne in mind that the Councils would have been only just elected; and they would not, therefore, have the necessary machinery at their disposal. He could conceive of no- thing more likely to bring things to a deadlock than that the clause should come into operation in its present form. In saying that he had no desire to eviscerate or emasculate the Bill. He was anxious that, as soon as the Bill was passed, there should be machinery in existence which would enable these powers to be carried out as before; at the same time that the Government of the day should have the power to proceed in certain respects by Provisional Order, of course subject to the consent of Parliament. What he contemplated in the case of the clause passing without his Amendment, which he hoped would be accepted, he believed would happen; and probably his right hon. Friend would be able to give his view of the subject. There were a great number of the powers to be transferred and specified in the Schedules which were not of very great importance, and which might be transferred en bloc by a Provisional Order to the new authorities; there were others in connection with the public health, and similar matters, the transfer of which from the Local Government Board, he thought, would be a matter for consideration; but with regard to those vested in the Board of Trade he was satisfied, for the reasons already stated, that it would be unwise and injudicious that they should be transferred as a whole to the County Council, and the Board of Trade altogether deprived of them. For these reasons, he ventured to submit the Amendment on the Paper to the Committee.

said, as the Amendment of the right hon. Gentlemen went to the very essence of the principle of transferring those powers to the County Council. He thought they had better deal with it on the Schedules of the Bill. It seemed to him that the way to defeat the object of the Bill would be to carry it in such a form that these important matters should be left to the discretion of the Government for the time being. He thought the Government should make their views upon this subject more clear, or else consent to the postponement of the clause. They were now entering upon a totally different part of the Bill—namely, that which delegated to the local Bodies the powers now exercised by the Central Authorities at Westminster. It seemed to him, in view of the serious import of this portion of the Bill, that the Government should have determined what powers they really intended to transfer to the local Councils before this, and that it was altogether inconsistent and indecorous that they should be, as they appeared to be, ready to surrender the whole of their scheme of delegation, and reserve the powers in question to Her Majesty's Executive Government. He could quite understand that some comparatively small towns did not like to be transferred from the dominion of the Board of Trade to the Councils; but if Her Majesty's Government really wished to give practical and substantial effect to the measure, they must with regard to powers now vested in the central authority, give before long something in the nature of modified Home Rule to the great Provinces of the Kingdom. Such a principle, he thought, might be applied with good effect to London, and such great counties as Yorkshire and Lancashire. On the whole, as it seemed to him Her Majesty's Government were prepared to accept the Amendment, it would perhaps be better to drop the clause for the present.

said, he wished to make an appeal to the Government to know what course they intended to take in the matter. It was understood the other night that they would put down Amendments for which they were to be responsible, and he wished to point out that, practically speaking, the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway, by this and subsequent Amendments, wished to withdraw the 8th clause, and he should like to know whether the Government were prepared to withdraw any more clauses without Notice. The Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, if adopted by the Committee, would in reality destroy the object and intention of the clause.

said, he hoped that he might be allowed to explain. The Amendment, as it stood now, was moved at the request and instigation of the right hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld), who had led the Opposition in this matter.

said, the right hon. Gentleman was not quite accurate in his assertion, and he was sorry that his right hon. Friend the Member for Halifax was, in consequence of illness, prevented from being in his place. If the Government would state in the Schedule of the Bill what powers they proposed to delegate to the County Councils, then the County Councils, when they were elected, would know what they had to do. The matter as it stood was left to a Provisional Order, and a Provisional Order meant nothing more nor less than this—another Act of Parliament under another name. What he complained of in the course of the progress of the Bill was the crumbling away, day by day, of all the main provisions of the measure. The Committee were aware that there were other clauses to be omitted besides this, and the section they were now discussing was one of the most vital and important clauses in the Bill in reference to the transfer of powers to the County Council. Nevertheless, at the instance of the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway, the Government were about to strike it out of the Bill.

said, he wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Amendment assumed its present form at the request of his own Party.

said, he was not arguing the matter from a Party point of view. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be incapable of dealing with it from any other point. There were many other clauses which were to share the same fate. So far as he was concerned, he intended to support the clause, even in opposition to the Government. He desired to see the clause kept as it was. If there were any powers improperly proposed to be transferred under it, let them be omitted in the Schedule. He should like the Committee to consider fairly how they stood. If they dabbled with this and other clauses, what were they going to leave to the County Councils? What they had given to the County Councils in Clause 3 was, broadly speaking, nothing, and they had been relying upon Clause 8 to find the Council something to do. Now, however, it was proposed to get rid of Clause 8. The object of Clause 8 was to place very important powers in the hands of the County Councils, and he very much feared that if they took away those powers which were to be transferred by the clause as it stood, the usefulness and the authority of the County Councils would be greatly impaired. Unless the clause were allowed to remain in the Bill as it stood, what would be its effect? It would be impossible to get competent men to remain on the County Councils for the purpose of doing nothing. That was the great fear that was entertained. With certain exceptions, he approved of the constitution of the County Councils, and he approved of many of the functions which it was proposed to confer upon them; but he would like to see them with really operative functions. Would that be so if this clause were removed from the Bill? What would the City Councils then have to do? As far as he could make out, they would have to deal with the main roads. But, surely, that was not a very important power to confer upon the Councils. Then, again, they would have to appoint a Visiting Committee for the lunatic asylums, and would have to attend to the registration and the rules of scientific societies. In point of fact, they would merely have such jurisdiction as could be readily carried out by a committee. So far as their powers and duties were embodied in the Bill, that is all they would have to do. The Government were now cutting away all the more important functions it was originally intended the County Councils should exercise. He was of opinion that it would be far better to give them something and not be so very disappointing. He hoped the Government would not encourage this proceeding. He knew that the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire looked with no particular friendly eye on these Councils, and he knew that not only were there Members of that House, but others who were not Members of it, who regarded the Bill unfavourably. They would rather not have the County Councils created, and they desired that when they were created they should have as nearly as possible nothing to do, and no power and no authority. He was certain that that was not the intention of the Government; but he believed they were absolutely sincere in their desire to create a useful and powerful body. Nevertheless, step by step, they were taking away the powers originally given by the Bill. He entreated them to stand by that clause, and if they did so, he could assure them of the general support of that side of the House.

said, he did not know whether the right hon. Momber for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) included his right hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) among those who desired to eviscerate that clause. It was necessary in consequence of the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, that he should call the attention of the Committee to the arrangement which was entered into on Tuesday last, when the clause was under discussion. It was perfectly true that the clause, as it stood in the Bill, first of all transferred by way of Schedule certain powers to the County Councils, and that it, secondly, proposed in reference to other powers, that they should be subsequently transferred by means of an Order in Council. When the clause came on for discussion, his right hon. Friend the Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) rose and moved an Amendment by which all the powers were not to be transferred at once, but by Order in Council. That proposal was supported by at least half-a-dozen Members, who spoke on both sides of the House, and among others by the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton, who, during the discussion of the Bill, had given great attention to the details of the measure, and whose knowledge of the subject would not be denied or gainsaid by any Member of the House. He even thought that the right hon. Member for Derby would be willing to acknowledge that the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton, from his experience, was bettor able to express an opinion than he was himself. Then again, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax had been regarded, whether rightly or not he did not know, as having charge of the Bill from the Front Bench opposite. In the course of the discussion, that right hon. Gentleman rose and gave a qualified approval of the proposal of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire to transfer the powers by an Order in Council, but suggested that it would be more convenient if the change were made by a Provisional Order Bill, instead of an Order in Council. The Govern- ment, recognizing as they did in reference to many of the details of the Bill, that they were quite open to learn by the experience of Gentlemen who had long been connected with the question of Local Government in that House—the Government recognized that there was great force both in the remarks of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire, and also in the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Halifax. Looking at the fact that the County Councils were not likely to come into active operation until April next year, it was quite a debatable point whether it was not desirable instead of at once saddling them with a considerable number of duties requiring great experience, to take some steps by which all the powers, or any part of them, might be made the subject of investigation at the hands of a Select Committee of the House of Commons. Such a Committee would be able to go into one and all of the various powers proposed to be conferred with a view to see whether all or some of them might be transferred, or whether some alterations ought to be made in the proposals of the Bill. That was a proposition which the Government considered reasonable, and they accordingly assented to the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Halifax, stating that, so far as they were concerned, they saw no objection to the course of procedure he proposed. But no sooner had they made that concession, than hon. Members opposite rose and protested against it, not one single voice having previously been heard in opposition to the view expressed by the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division and by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench opposite. Now, what were the real facts of the case? As he had said, those County Councils did not really come into power until April, 1889. There was, therefore, plenty of time between now and the commencement of next Session of Parliament for the Government to prepare and introduce a Provisional Order Bill, specifying the powers that were to be handed over to the County Councils.

asked, if that Bill would be brought in during the present Session?

said, no; not during that Session. The right hon. Gentle- man knew perfectly well that it would be quite impossible to pass a Provisional Order Bill that year; but if it were presented early next Session it might be proceeded with at once, and passed rapidly into law. The right hon. Gentleman assumed that the Government had a desire to create County Councils, and then give them nothing to do.

No.

That was the whole gist of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, who said—"Are we to trust the Government to do anything of the kind, if we do not do it now in the Bill."

begged the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. He did not say that; but he had pointed out that by a Provisional Order they would not have the powers transferred in time for the election of the new Councils, and the men elected would not know what they had to do. All he desired to point out was that the first election would take place without the County Councils knowing what the powers were they would have to discharge.

said, the right hon. Gentleman wanted to know what the County Councils were to do. It had been stated again and again that this new Body was being created in the hope of placing in the Schedule of the Bill the powers conferred by the measure. It was, however, recognized on all hands, that it would be unwise and impolitic for the House to saddle these new Bodies with the powers they would have to perform until the Councils themselves had bad some experience of the nature of the work and were ready to settle themselves down into working order. How could the right hon. Gentleman say that the County Councils would be elected in ignorance of what they would have to do, when the Government in the Bill made proposals in reference to all the questions that were scheduled in the measure, and only refrained from carrying them into an Act in consequence of representations made to them that it would be better early next Session to make provision for it. The right hon. Member said that the most important of those powers were the powers connectedwith Provisional Orders, and he thought the right hon. Member for Derby would acknowledge the truth of that remark. Therefore, it would not be at all satisfactory to say that they proposed to transfer at once certain powers which the Home Secretary now had, and then to refrain from doing more. There was not the smallest justification for supposing that the County Councils would be prejudiced in their election by the position which the Government had taken up in response to the appeal from the other side of the House. He could only say that the Government had shown their desire to secure that the powers of the County Councils should be ample, but they acknowledged that there was great force in the objections which had been made, that many of these powers would be transferred without sufficient examination by a Select Committee of the House. They would undertake to have a Provisional Order Bill drawn up and presented to Parliament at the earliest moment, with a view of showing that they had no desire to create a great and important machine like this, and then to give it nothing to do. That was the reason why he supported the Amendment of his right hon. Friend the Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire, and he was certain that the proposal would meet the approval of the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton.

said, he had waited with anxiety to ascertain what position the President of the Local Government Board intended to take with regard to the subsequent Amendments which appeared on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire, because those subsequent Amendments altered the whole position as it was discussed tho other day.

said, he was sorry if he had not made that matter clear. This Amendment was only preliminary. He was not prepared to say that he would accept all the Amendments upon the Paper; but what he did accept now was to transfer these powers by means of a Provisional Order.

said, he wished to point out that the whole position would be altered if these Amendments were accepted by the Government, and he desired to point out the way in which the matter stood when it was last under discussion. Many Members were opposed to the Amendment of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire altogether. He had not been one of those. He had thought that it would be wise to give instructions to the County Councils in cases where experience was required by means of a Provisional Order or an Order in Council. The powers which it was proposed to transfer to the County Councils had never been given to the municipalities, and the County Councils not having had the experience of the municipalities would certainly not be prepared at the first moment to exercise the powers proposed to be conferred upon them. But what was the position to-day, if the Government accepted the subsequent Amendments of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It simply meant the destruction of Clause 8. Everything up to line 48 was cancelled by the Amendment. If the Amendment were passed, the whole of the Schedules would go, because the effect would be to cause their disappearance from the Bill, and the whole purpose and object of Clause 8 would have vanished. Under such circumstances, he could not vote for the Amendment. If the Government would give an assurance that they would oppose this process of the evisceration of Clause 8 and would retain the Schedule, he would hold himself to his promise and would support them, because he thought it better that the Government should give instructions as to what powers the County Councils were to exercise. By assenting to the course now proposed, that would give to the Government the power of decentralizing the whole matter.

said, he did not think the right hon. Gentleman could have heard the whole of the discussion upon this subject. One of the arguments of the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton was that if the clause were allowed to stand as it was in the Bill it would lead to a long and endless discussion on these very Schedules, and that was one of the chief arguments the right hon. Gentleman used in favour of his proposal. It was certainly an argument which he (Mr. Ritchie) had regarded as a very powerful one. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Lyon Playfair) did not seem to have heard the discussion which took place in reference to the Schedule, and he now said that the Government were going to omit a large portion of the clause. That was per- fectly true; but it was necessary to do so because the clause was divided into two parts. It, therefore, became necessary that much of what was contained in the 1st sub-section should be applied to the 2nd sub-section, and the proposal of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division (Mr. Chaplin) was to deal with both sub-sections in the same way. The Government, therefore, allowed an amalgamation of the two sub-sections, and that was the sole reason why the words referred to by the right hon. Gentleman were proposed to be struck out.

said, he had heard the whole of the discussion, and his interpretation of it was, and he thought it a good explanation, that if they were to give these complex powers, it was not desirable to transfer them at once to the County Councils, but to give the power of doing so by means of a Provisional Order. That would render it unnecessary to discuss tho Schedules in such detail as would otherwise be essential. He thought that that was a proper suggestion; but he had not dreamt that the right hon. Gentleman was going to strike out the Schedules altogether.

said, he thought that after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board the opposition of hon. Members opposite was unreasonable. He thought it was necessary to examine carefully the powers which the Bill proposed to transfer. He had been somewhat alarmed in the first instance at the restrictive powers of the Amendment, but it had been clear altogether that the Government had no intention whatever of restricting the power it was proposed to confer upon the County Councils, and, in regard to the Amendment of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division (Mr. Chaplin) there was nothing more reasonable than that a full opportunity should be afforded for considering what powers were to be transferred. He was inclined to think that many hon. Members who had taken part in the discussion of the clause had lost sight of the importance of not handing over these powers at once by wholesale. He was of opinion that the County Councils would not be perfectly capable of carrying them out, and he should vote against the Amendment if he did not see that the practical effect would be to give them experience and knowledge of the work they were to perform. Take, for instance, the power with regard to the issue of Provisional Orders as to the carrying out of works. If this power were handed over at once to the Local Authority, what means would the Local Authority have of carrying out and giving consent to the issue of Provisional Orders in connection with such works as drainage? The money which would have to be borrowed would be a difficulty in itself; it would be necessary to apply to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, and the Public Works Loan Commissioners were not likely to grant a considerable sum without some evidence of an engineering character as to the value of the work proposed to be done. So, in regard to other works, a scheme would have to be properly prepared and submitted before the money could be borrowed. It would, therefore, be necessary to have an inquiry on the spot at which objections could be raised, and the whole matter would be fairly threshed out. It was ridiculous to suppose that any County Council would at once embark in any measure of this kind without such a preliminary inquiry; therefore, it was a wise precaution on behalf of the Government to see that the machinery was in working order before they handed over these powers to the County Councils. He hoped there would be no delay in granting the powers which he regarded as so important. It was of the highest importance to remove the power of decentralization, and get rid of the clog of Business that occurred upstairs. It was also desirable to relieve those who at present took part in projects of this kind, from the dreadful responsibility of bringing a local Bill before Parliament. He entertained the hope that, large as the powers were that were to be conferred by the Bill, there would be some further powers in regard to Private Bill legislation. The issue of Provisional Orders was another matter. No doubt, when they handed over this power to the County Councils, care would be taken to see that they were in a position to carry it out. They had had a clear statement from the President of the Local Government Board that it was not the intention of the Government to delay the transfer of these powers, and, there- fore, he considered that hon. Members opposite were unreasonable in objecting to the Amendment. He was sure that there was no intention on the part of the Government to restrict the powers of the County Councils. As to the evisceration of the Bill, if the right hon. Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) would look at the Amendments on the Paper, and the powers to be granted to the County Councils, he could have no fear that the Councils would not have ample work to do. It was not, however, desirable that all the work they would have to do should be put at once upon their shoulders.

said, that after the two speeches which had been delivered by the President of the Local Government Board, they seemed really to have got at the bottom of the meaning of the Amendment of the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire. It was simply a timesaving Amendment to shorten the debate on the Bill. The Government had done a good deal in that direction in throwing over extra weight, and from the ambiguous and unsatisfactory reply that had been given that afternoon by the First Lord of the Treasury, it was clear that it was at least possible that the London clauses of the Bill might follow the Licensing Clauses.

said, that not a single word had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman who asked the question, or his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, which could possibly justify the assertion which the hon. Member had made.

said, the silence of the right hon. Gentleman was just as significant as his speech. When the proposition was raised in the Committee, he protested against treating the County of London in the same way as other localities. He had heard nothing that day as to what was to be done for London. [Cries of "Order!" and "Question!"] He submitted that this was the Question. This clause conferred certain powers on the County Council for London, and it was impossible at a later period to insert in the Schedule the duties and liabilities of the County Council of London unless they were prepared to confer some powers upon other County Councils. He doubted very much whether the right hon. Gentleman had improved the Bill by substituting a Provisional Order for an Order in Council. No doubt they would have all the influence of the permanent officials against them, who had been accustomed to use these powers, as all must admit, with great efficiency. It was unlikely that they would be willing to surrender them, and to ask popular Bodies to take over the powers they now possessed. He was, therefore, afraid that the process of devolution would be much slower than was contemplated, and the proposition now made might prove more insidious than the one which was contained in the Amendment as it stood. He was of opinion that the whole of the arguments they had heard that afternoon related to one part of the Schedule, and one part only. The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. Llewellyn) and the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) had referred to the powers now exercised by the Board of Trade, and they maintained that it would be improper to call upon the County Councils, who would be without experience and knowledge, to exercise such powers. The three parts of the 1st Schedule defined the powers that were to be transferred now exercised by the Home Office, the Board of Trade, and the Local Government Board; and the right hon. Member for the Sleaford Division, in endeavouring to prevent the second part from appearing in the Schedule, showed what the governing idea in his mind was. Personally, he (Mr. Lawson) did not see why some compromise should not be arrived at in connection with this subject. Why should not the Government at once admit that it was the powers of the Board of Trade that were objected to, on the ground that they required expert knowledge and practice which did not apply to other Departments of the State? The whole of the objections, as a matter of fact, applied to one part of the Schedule, and to save time the Government were going to cut out the whole Schedule and to diminish the dignity of the County Councils, simply with the object of lightening the load the Government had to carry. The Government would be prepared to say that at the present time there was no opportunity to discuss the Schedule. He thought some arrangement might be made by which it might be agreed to except the powers now exercised by the Board of Trade, and to take a moderate amount of discussion on the Schedule as a whole, because on most points in regard to them they would all be agreed. He trusted that hon. Members on that side of the House would resist the Amendment as it stood.

said, that as one who was present during the whole of the discussion the other day, he felt bound to express surprise at the course taken by the Front Opposition Bench. He was second to none in desiring that the powers given to the County Councils should be both large and important; but when he came into the House the other day to hear the discussion of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division of Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin), he did so with a perfectly open mind, and after the right hon. Gentleman had spoken, a very weighty speech was delivered by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Blackpool Division of Lancashire (Sir Matthew White Ridley). He thought it would have been greatly to the advantage of hon. Members to have heard that speech. They had had speeches from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Leeds (Sir Lyon Playfair), the last of whom spoke with great authority upon matters connected with the health of the community. Both of those right hon. Gentlemen supported the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Ritchie) waited to see whether any other hon. Members would address the House; and, finding that there was a universal consensus of opinion in favour of the Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman rose in his place and said that, as he did not wish to resist the universal opinion of the House, he would accept the Amendment, against which not one word had been spoken by any hon. Member. Under these circumstances, he protested against the use in that discussion of such phrases as "evisceration of the Bill" and "time-serving Amendments."

said, the phrase he used was "time-saving Amendments."

said, he felt bound to protest against the imputation of motives which had been made in the course of the discussion. The phrases which had unfortunately been used, he ventured to think, had much more to do with the Licensing Clauses, which were in a state of suspended animation, than with the question before the House. Those phrases were intended, not as consumption in that House, but for consumption off tho premises; they were intended to give the constituents the false idea that a measure which showed more trust in the people than had ever been evinced by any Government before was a sham. [Cries of "Hear, hear!"] He understood the meaning of that cheer. He had seen the same phrase used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) when he gave the benefit of his assistance to the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Jennings) by addressing his constituents. He could only say that it was with the greatest surprise he had heard, on the last occasion, the Motion made to report Progress by the right hon. Gentleman the late Chief Secreatry for Ireland (Mr. John Morley), who had not been present during the whole of the discussion, and had heard very little of the comments of right hon. Gentlemen who sat on the same Benches themselves, but who, on the faith of representations of hon. Members who had casually dropped into the House, without having heard the discussion, moved to report Progress, and had thus occasioned a considerable waste of time.

said, he sincerely hoped the Government would not accept the compromise suggested by the hon. Member for West St. Pancras (Mr. Lawson). Nothing could be more fallacious than the argument that delay was advisable, so that the County Councils might have time to furnish themselves with experts like those who now advised the Board of Trade in regard to Tramways and matters of that kind. It was said that the County Councils had not the experience they ought to have, and that, therefore, they ought not to be entrusted with these new powers; but they never would have experience and were not likely to take experts into their service until they had full powers given to them. He sincerely hoped that all the powers would be given together and would stand or fall together.

said, he thought that the House generally was pretty much agreed as to what they wanted to accomplish; but the difficulty was how they were to accomplish it. He believed that most of them were anxious that the new County Councils should have large powers transferred to them; but there were some of those powers which hon. Members sitting on both sides of the House believed that it would be imprudent to transfer at the present moment. The difficulty was how they were to accomplish the transference of powers without involving too great a waste of the time of the House. Let them look for a moment at the matters it was proposed to transfer. The powers of the Secretary of State contained in the first Schedule ought, no doubt, to be transferred at once. The second part proposed to transfer to the County Councils the powers, duties, and liabilities of the Board of Trade, and he thought there was a general agreement that it would not be wise, before the County Councils got settled down to their work, to confer those duties upon them. When they came to the third part it was more difficult to come to a decision. He referred to the transference of the powers, duties, and liabilities of the Local Government Board. He believed that a greater part of those duties should be transferred at once, but there was some part of them which it might be desirable to transfer somewhat later. He thought there was a groat objection to the Amendment before the Committee which required these things to be done by Provisional Order. They always knew that Provisional Orders were very slow and difficult things to get through. What he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Ritchie) was that ho should agree to transfer the powers by Order in Council instead of by Provisional Order, and then the right hon. Gentleman should state to the Committee what were the powers which ought to be at once transferred by such Order in Council. By that means he (Mr. Rath-bone) thought they would obtain the object they all desired to accomplish—that was to say, that all necessary powers would be at once transferred to the County Councils, and they would be able to get into working order for the rest.

said, he desired to point out that it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) who had suggested a Provisional Order instead of an Order in Council. The hon. Member for West St. Pancras (Mr. Lawson) had suggested a compromise, and proposed that by way of giving the Council something to do they should have at once transferred to them the duties performed by the Home Office. Those duties were "power to represent to Her Majesty in Council that burials should be discontinued in any place of burial in the Metropolitan area; approval of new burial ground or cemetery in the Metropolitan area, or within two miles of it; powers to make report to Her Majesty in Council for the discontinuance of burial in any place of burial; approval of new burial ground; power to order the abolition of a fair, and power to order an alteration of the day for holding a fair and the duration of a fair." Those were the powers of the Home Secretary which the hon. Member for West St. Pancras was kindly willing to say might be transferred to the County Councils.

said, he had also pointed out that the powers of the Local Government Board might be transferred at once.

said, if it was proposed that the whole of those powers should at once be transferred to the County Councils, he was afraid that it would lead to a long discussion, considering that a good many of them were of an extremely controversial character. The hon. Member seemed to think that the London Council would not have enough to do when it was proposed to transfer to it the whole of the powers of the Metropolitan Board of Works. He (Mr. Groschen) thought that would start the London Council with a fair amount of business. In point of fact it would devolve upon them a somewhat herculean task. It would be better to have the powers for which they were adapted given to the Councils, than to have their minds disturbed by a mass of business with which they would not be able to deal. His views were well known on this subject. He was strongly in favour of decentralization. The whole object of the Government was to decentralize as soon as they could, and he could assure the hon. Member that when he occupied the position of Chairman of the New County Council to which he might aspire, he would have plenty of business to attend to and ample scope for his talents. They were all unanimous, he trusted, on this point, that ample powers should be given to the County Councils, and the only difference was as to the lines upon which they should proceed. He was not going to repeat the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to why these powers should not be included in the Bill at the present moment. What he was dealing with now was the argument that in leaving out certain powers for the present the Government were influenced by some sinister design. The case would have to be considered by a Select Committee, and, of course, the Government would resist any endeavour on the part of the Department to retain powers in their hands which it was desirable to hand over to the County Council.

said, that with respect to the remarks which had fallon from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was quite true that the London County Council were to have all the powers which were now exercised by the Metropolitan Board of Works, but he did not understand that the Government wanted another Metropolitan Board of Works, nor did the public want one. He understood that they wanted a different class of men altogether. He looked forward to the London Council having very different powers, and to a time when it might hope to secure the services of men of position and ability, with such a man as the right hon. Gentleman himself at their head. If they believed in all they had said about the necessity of decentralization, they should give their words effect.

asked, why the clause and the powers to which it related had been deliberately put into the measure? What was the object? He thought that a great deal of time, a great deal of trouble, a good deal of friction, and a certain amount of misunderstanding would have been avoided if the Committee had thoroughly realized what powers were proposed to be granted to the County Councils. He would ask the Committee to consider what those powers really were. He represented a county constituency, and he would ask what powers were proposed to be transferred, after the remarkable admission which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the powers now exercised by the Home Secretary were very trumpery powers indeed. What were they? They would give the County Councils power to alter the day on which a fair was to be held without warrant, and without the necessity of going to the Home Office in order to obtain permission. They also gave the County Councils certain small licensing powers. Then came the second part of the Schedule, which related to the powers now exercised by the Board of Trade, and that was the part to which he wished most strongly, in the interests of the new governing Bodies, to direct the attention of the Committee. They had been told, over and over again, that the Government and the Conservative Party were most anxious to grant large powers to the County Councils, but he would venture, without hesitation, to say that the powers to be granted under the 8th clause and the second and third parts of the Schedules were, so far from being too large, nothing like the powers that a democratic Body like the County Councils would immediately insist upon having. He would invite the attention of the Committee to what those powers were. What was the first? The County Councils were to have the powers of the Board of Trade, with certain exceptions, under the General Pier and Harbours Act. Surely the Committee ought to have been told, before proceeding with the discussion, whether it was really intended to withdraw the concession of those powers. At the present moment, when a Local Authority wanted to have a pier or harbour made, it was necessary to go to the Local Government Board or to the Board of Trade.

rose in his place and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."

declined to put the Question.

said, he was not in the habit of trespassing upon the patience of the House. He was only claiming for the County Council of his own county that the powers to be given should be given to them directly, and he wished to show that those powers, so far from involving great responsibility, involved scarcely any responsibility whatever. If a Local Authority wanted to make a pier or harbour, what would be the change introduced if they passed this Schedule? They would simply make it necessary that the Local Authority, or the promoters, as they were called, should go the County Council, instead of being required to come up to London, in order to lay their case before the Representatives of the people. Was that an unreasonable change to make in creating a great governing Body of this sort? It certainly did not amount to very much, for the County Council would only allow the application to be made. There were a number of serious restrictions imposed by Statute. For instance, it was necessary that notice should be given, and all the formalities of a Provisional Order gone through, and then the application would have to be submitted to the County Council. The powers under which a Provisional Order was to be given were expressly provided in all of the Acts—such as the General Pier and Harbour Act, the Tramway Act, and the Electric Lighting Act. The Local Authority would not be able to buy a foot of land without having practically to go to London. It was perfectly idle to tell him that these powers were too large to be confided to the discretion of the County Council, seeing that they were subjected to the provisions of an Act of Parliament, because a Provisional Order must always be assented to by Parliament. The Committee ought not to deceive themselves by supposing that the people were going to be satisfied with the process of issuing Provisional Orders when public works were required to be done, or that they would be content to come to Parliament for its assent. The powers they required were very much larger than those, and he would seriously ask the Committee to consider—especially those on the other side of the House, who had drafted these clauses—why on earth they should stultify the Bill by introducing certain provisions into it, unless they intended to stand by them. The Government said, "We have drawn up these Schedules and we consider that these powers are necessary powers." Then, why delay their insertion in the Bill? The Bill and the machinery would be ready next year. There were powers exercised by the Local Government Board in reference to baths and washhouses. At present those provisions applied to the whole country, but they could not be applied to a single parish except upon an application made to the Local Government Board. By the second part of the Schedule, instead of its being necessary to apply to the Local Government Board, the application would in future be made to the County Council. That was a very small power indeed, and if the Committee would take the trouble, as he had done, to go through every one of these Acts, they would find that it was only similar trumpery powers which were to be transferred. He, therefore, trusted that the Committee would at once proceed to invest the Local Authorities with the powers contained in the Schedule.

said, that this debate would be a lesson to him in the future as to how he accepted an Amendment, or an alteration to an Amendment, on the invitation of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Complaint had been made of the substitution of a Provisional Order for an Order in Council. That alteration had been accepted on the direct invitation of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld). For his (Mr. Chaplin's) own part he greatly preferred his own Amendment; but, for the sake of making progress with the Bill, he had accepted the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. He thought that it was somewhat hard and unreasonable to complain of the Government for the course they had followed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. John Morley) had expressed his opinion on the previous night that half-an-hour's discussion would finish the question; as they had now been discussing it for two hours and a-half he claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."