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Commons Chamber

Volume 355: debated on Thursday 16 July 1891

House of Commons

Thursday, July 16, 1891

Private Business

Hanover Chapel Bill [Lords]

( by Order. )

Order for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [15th July],

"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to inquire whether the cost of building Hanover Chapel was not largely borne by the rates of the whole parish of St. George's, Hanover Square; and, if so, whether a portion of the surplus of the money to be derived from the sale of the chapel building and the site thereof, after providing for the erection of the new district church contemplated by the Bill, should not be used for the religious requirements of the whole parish; and, if so, the Committee may, if they think fit, be at liberty to insert provisions in the Bill to apply a portion of such surplus accordingly,"—( Mr. Thomas Henry Bolton, )

—read, and discharged.

Hanover Chapel Bill [Lords]

Viscount Cranborne, Mr. Picton, and Mr. W. H. Cross nominated Members of the Committee, with Two Members to be added by the Committee of Selection.

Ordered, That the Committee on the Bill have leave to sit and proceed forthwith.—( Mr. W. H. Cross. )

Private Bills

Returns ordered—

"Of the number of Private Bills introduced and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in the Session of 1890–91, classed according to the following subjects: Railways, Tramways, Tramroads, Subways, Canals and Navigations, Roads and Bridges, Water. Gas and Water, Lighting and Improvement, Police and Sanitary Regulations, Corporations, &c. (not relating to Police and Sanitary Regulations or to Lighting and Improvement Schemes), Ports, Piers, Harbours, and Docks; Churches, Chapels, and Burying Grounds; In closure and Drainage; Estate; Divorce; and Miscellaneous."

"Of all the Private Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, which, in the Session of 1890–91, have been treated as Opposed Bills; specifying those which have been classified in Groups by the Committee of Selection, or by the General Committee on Railway and Canal Bills; together with the names of the Selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each Selected Member has served; the Bills the preambles of which were reported to have been proved; the Bills the preambles of which were reported to have been not proved; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed; the Bills referred back to the Committee of Selection, or to the General Committee on Railway and Canal Bills, as having become unopposed, and the Bills withdrawn, or not proceeded with by the parties."

"And, of all Private Bills which, in the Session of 1890–91, have been referred by the Committee of Selection, or by the General Committee on Railway and Canal Bills, to the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, together with the names of the Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member attended (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.146, of Session 1890."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Select Committees

Return ordered—

"Of the number of Select Committees appointed in the Session of 1890–91, including the Standing Committees and the Court of Referees; the subjects of inquiry; the names of the Members appointed to servo on each, and of the Chairman of each; the number of days each Committee met, and the number of days each Member attended; the total expense of the attendance of Witnesses at each Select Committee, and the name of the Member who moved for such Committee; also, the total number of Members who served on Select Committees (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.147, of Session 1890)."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Sittings of The House

Return ordered—

"Of the number of days on which the House sat in the Session of 1890–91, stating, for each day the date of the month, and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of adjournment; and the total number of hours occupied in the Sittings of the House, and the average time; and showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after midnight; and the number of entries in each day's Votes and Proceedings (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.148, of Session 1890)."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Public Bills

Return ordered—

"Of the number of Public Bills distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during the Session of 1890–91; showing the number which received the Royal Assent; the number which were passed by this House but not by the House of Lords; the number passed by the House of Lords but not by this House; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills as did not receive the Royal Assent were dropped or postponed and rejected in either House of Parliament (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.149 of Session 1890)."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Public Petitions

Return ordered—

"Of the number of Public Petitions presented and printed in the Session of 1890–91; with the total number of Signatures in that year (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.150, of Session 1890)."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Divisions of the House

Return ordered—

"Of the number of Divisions of the House in the Session of 1890–91; stating the subject of the Division, and the number of Members in the majority and minority, Tellers included; also the aggregate number in the House on each Division; distinguishing the Divisions on Public Business from Private; and also the number of Divisions before and after midnight (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.151, of Session 1890)."—( Sir Charles Forster. )

Army (Courts-Martial on Gambling.)

Address for—

"Return, for the years 1888, 1889, and 1890, of the numbers of cases of Non-Commissioned Officers tried by Court-Martial, and punished, for allowing gambling or card playing to take place, or for participating in it, giving short particulars of each offence, the date, and the punishment inflicted."—( Mr. Cobb. )

Railway Servants (Hours of Labour) [Inquiry Not Completed.]

Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, and an Appendix, brought up, and read.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 342.]

Questions

Questions

Sale of Opium in the Broach District

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that the licence for the sale of opium in the district of Broach requires that the licensee shall sell not less than five and a half tons of the drug per annum, and that lie was liable to a fine of Rs. 10,195 for selling one ton short of his guaranteed quantity, and whether the fine has been exacted; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that the quantity of opium compelled to be sold to the, population of Broach (326,930 people) equals 20,000,000 four-grain poisonous doses, and whether this statement is correct; whether it is the case that the opium licensee may open many shops under his one licence, and also that the Government takes power to compel him to open new shops; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that in 16 districts of the Bombay Presidency the consumption of the drug has increased 30 per cent. in five years, and whether this statement is correct; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Moral and Material Progress of India, that it is proposed to close the Cheendoo shops where prepared opium is smoked upon the premises, as the existence of these houses tends to spread the vice of opium smoking, which is of recent origin in most parts of the Punjab, and whether the Government will urge upon the Government of India the expediency of giving prompt effect to this proposal; whether the India Office has yet received a reply from the Government of Burma to the inquiry promised 26th February into the allegation that in the town of Akyab there are several hundreds of opium dens, though but one opium licence is reported as given out; and whether he will ask the Indian Government to withdraw provisions calculated to stimulate the consumption of opium in India, in accordance with the decision of the House of Commons?

The reply to the two paragraphs of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. The facts are correctly stated in the question, but I am not aware whether a four-grain dose is poisonous or not. As to the third paragraph, the licence holder cannot open more shops than are named in the licence, unless required to do so by the collector. The reply to the fourth paragraph is that the information which the hon. Member has received is erroneous. The increase during the last four years has been about 7 per cent. Although there was a large increase in 1886–87 that increase was attributed mainly to the repression of smuggling. The answer to paragraph 5 is, that it appears from page 94 of the Report for 1889–90, presented in May last, that all the Chandoo shops in the Punjab have been closed, with satisfactory results. As to the 6th paragraph, the inquiry was sent to India in March, but no reply has yet been received. In reply to the last of the hon Member's questions, I have to say that it is not the policy of the Government of India to stimulate the consumption of opium or any other intoxicant.

Compulsory Vaccination in India

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether he can inform the House to what districts in India compulsory vaccination extends; whether Municipal Bodies and other Local Authorities have power to introduce compulsory vaccination within their respective local limits; whether the compulsory vaccination system is uniform, or whether its provisions differ in different localities; whether any provision exists in India analogous to Section 31 of the English Act of 1867 as regards cumulative penalties; and whether he can state the number of prosecutions and the number of imprisonments for non-vaccination that have taken place in recent years?

Compulsory vaccination exists in four districts of Bengal, and 183 municipal cities and towns in different Provinces of India. The reply to the second question is that the extension of the compulsory law is effected by the local government, but generally on the initiative of the Municipal or other Local Authority. The provisions vary slightly in different Provinces. Provisions exist in the Indian Law analogous to those enhancing punishments under the English Law. The Secretary of State cannot state the number of prosecutions, but, so far as he is aware, there have been no imprisonments.

Indian Native Engineers

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether the Government of Bombay has refused to allow native applicants for certificates as engineers on board of local coasting steamers to be examined in their own language; whether the coasting vessels referred to are commanded and manned wholly by natives; whether in other countries candidates for such certificates are examined in their mother tongue; and whether he will cause inquiries to be addressed to the Government of Bombay on the subject?

Sale of Ganja

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the statement in the Allahabad Pioneer, of the 10th of May last, that ganja, "which is grown, sold, and excised under much the same conditions as opium," is far more harmful than opium, and that "the lunatic asylums of India are filled with ganja smokers;" whether he is aware that the possession and sale of ganja has been prohibited for many years past in Lower Burma, and that the exclusion of the drug was stated in the Excise Report of that Province for 1881–2 to have been "of immense benefit to the people;" and whether he will call the attention of the Government of India to the desirability of extending the same prohibition to the other Provinces of British India?

The Secretary of State has seen the statement mentioned in the first paragraph of the question about the sale of ganja. The facts are as stated as to the exclusion of ganja from Burma. The answer to the third paragraph is that in Bengal—the Province where ganja is principally consumed—the price of duty-paid ganja has been greatly increased during recent years, making its consumption more expensive. The Secretary of State will inquire whether the Government of India will propose to take further steps to limit the consumption.

The Anti-Opium Society

I beg to ask the UnderSecretary of State for India whether he has yet received any answer from the Government of India in regard to the Memorial presented to Lord Cross from the Anti-Opium Society on 31st July, 1890?

No answer has yet been received, but a reminder has been sent to the Government of India, in accordance with the promise I made to the hon. Member on the 29th of May.

Opium Licences

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the issue of licences for the sale of opium by the Government of Bombay, and especially to the provision requiring a certain amount to be sold by the licensee under heavy penalties; whether, considering the assurance given by him that the policy of the Indian Government was to diminish the cultivation and consumption of the drug, he will cause representations to be made to the Government of Bombay, so that no such provisions should be inserted in future licences?

The Secretary of State is aware that licensed opium vendors in Bombay engage to sell a specified quantity of licit opium. A table showing the minimum for each district is given at page 10 of the Bombay Opium Report. The Revenue officers of the Bombay Government believe that the existence of this minimum tends to prevent licensed vendors from dealing in opium illegally smuggled from the adjoining Native States. The Bombay Government will be invited to consider whether the existence of the minimum tends to encourage an increased consumption in British districts, and if it does so tend they will doubtless alter the system.

Postage of Friendly Society Circulars

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he will allow the various Friendly Societies of the United Kingdom the same facilities for sending notices of arrears of subscriptions through the post, at the ½d. rate of postage, as are now given to tradesmen in issuing their quarterly or other statement of accounts?

I beg also to ask the Postmaster General what has been the result of his correspondence with the Treasury, intimated as long ago as 30th June of last year, regarding the postage on circulars of Friendly Societies reminding members of arrears of subscriptions; and whether it has been determined to include such circulars in the ½d postage?

* : In reply to the hon. Member for Boston on Tuesday last, as also on many other previous occasions during the present Session to other hon. Members, I have answered this question by pointing out that one of the principal objects of the Post Office Bill, which is on the Paper for to-night, and which has already passed through Committee, is to afford to the Friendly Societies the relief suggested. It must, however, depend on the co-operation of hon. Members interested in the subject if this Bill can be passed before the Prorogation.

Telegraphs

I beg to ask the Postmaster General if, with the object of encouraging a reasonable development of the telegraph system, he will consider whether the conditions of guarantee now demanded for the extension of wires might with advantage to the public and the postal revenue be to some extent reduced?

* : I had already considered the subject to which the hon. Member calls attention, and I had made certain proposals to the Treasury. Those proposals are now under consideration. The hon. Member may have obtained that by an Amendment in the Post Office Bill, of which I have given notice. Power will be given to Local Authorities to guarantee the cost of these extensions.

Enlistments in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the number of enlistments annually in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland have shown a falling off; and if he can state approximately the figures for last year as compared with 10 years ago; and whether, having regard to the over-populated condition and consequent privations in these districts, he can see his way to offer any special inducements for enlistment in the Army?

Is the assumption in the second paragraph of the question correct, that these districts are over populated? Is it not notoriously the fact that they are the most under-populated districts in the whole of Great Britain?

* : I cannot answer the question of the hon. Member (Mr. A. Sutherland) without making further inquiry. With regard to the question on the Paper, I may say that, as compared with the number of recruits raised 10 years ago, recruiting in Scotland north of Inverness-shire has not decreased. The actual numbers were 83 in 1881, and 89 in 1890, but it is quite true that in the intervening years the numbers were considerably higher. Every effort has been made to foster recruiting in the North of Scotland, but there does not appear to be much inclination there towards military service. The question of what inducements can be offered will, no doubt, be considered by the Committee now sitting on the terms of service.

Is it not the fact that the Army has become unpopular in the Highlands and Islands because troops have been used for evictions and the extortion of rents?

* : No, Sir; certainly not. As far as I am aware, the force generally employed has been of the Royal Marines. But in any case, the Army would do its duty if required.

Prison Clerkships

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the next examination for prison clerkships (England) will take place; and whether it will be open to candidates from all parts of the United Kingdom?

No date has been fixed for the next examination for prison clerkships in England. Reductions are still being made in the prison staff, and the prospect of an examination being held is therefore remote. The competition is not open, but limited to selected candidates, who come from all parts of the United Kingdom.

Full-Time Workers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered the desirability of raising the educational standard for fulltime workers under "The Factories and Workshops Act, 1878;" and, if so, what standard of the Code he has fixed upon; and when will it come into operation?

The question of raising the educational standard for fulltime work in factories and workshops only, as distinguished from other employments, and of applying that higher standard to all factories and workshops alike under Section 26 of the Factories Act, 1878, is a question which cannot be decided without careful inquiry into the circumstances of various industries and conference with the Education Department. I will take an early opportunity of conferring with the Education Department, but I am unable at present to state what course will be pursued?

The Naval Manœuvres

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will be good enough to state the objective character of the exercises in which officers and men are to be employed during the forthcoming Naval Manœuvres; whether the squadrons are to be located and directed under orders from the Admiralty; if so, are the divisions to be grouped in defensive and offensive classes; and if it correct that the employment of one of the divisions is to be confined to practice in letting go and the heaving of anchors?

The programme of the present year's Naval Manœuvres has been already made public through a Memorandum published in the daily newspapers, and consists partly of a series of tactical exercises and partly of operations of two squadrons of torpedo boats opposed to one another. This Memorandum will give the hon. Gentleman all the information he wants.

Writers in the Royal Navy

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is the case that the class of writers in the Royal Navy have had no increase of pay since their introduction in 1867, although their duties and responsibilities have greatly increased since then, during which time they have been gradually taking the place of the junior Accountant Officers; whether official representations have been made to this effect; and whether the Admiralty are prepared to consider their case?

With certain small exceptions, no increase of pay has been given to writers since the introduction of the class in 1867; but as it was intended at the time to substitute them for junior accountant officers to a considerable extent, I cannot admit that their duties and responsibilities have increased beyond what was contemplated. In March last, an addition was made to their pay of 1s. a day when serving in ships not allowed an accountant officer, and also certain allowances were granted to chief writers, who might re-engage on completing their time for pension. The existing regulations being sufficient to attract good candidates, and the case of the writers having been already considered this year, I am not prepared to now reopen the question.

Trafalgar Square

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to the filthy condition of the water at the fountains in Trafalgar Square; and whether, in the interests of the health of the inhabitants of the Metropolis, he will have the matter attended to?

I find that on the day on which the hon. Member put down his question on the Paper the fountains in Trafalgar Square were awaiting their regular cleaning, and they have since been cleaned. They are emptied and thoroughly cleaned and filled again with 80,000 gallons of water about once every three months, and in the intervals between such quarterly cleanings the water in the fountains is refreshed about once a fortnight. Within the last three and a half months the quantity of fresh water thus supplied to the fountains has been 250,000 gallons. I will consider, however, whether these fountains cannot during the hot weather be more frequently supplied with fresh water.

Dr. Klein

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether Dr. Klein is a permanent salaried official of the Local Government Board, or whether he merely makes an Annual Report regarding his own private experiments; what salary or remuneration Dr. Klein receives; whether any and, if so, which of the inoculation experiments referred to in his last Report were performed with diphtheritic membranes received from the Fulham Fever Hospital, and which of them were made in England; and whether, to prevent future misunderstanding, he will request Dr. Klein to specify in future Reports which of his experiments are made in England and which abroad?

* : I have communicated with the hon. Gentleman who gave notice of this question, and have requested him to defer it until Monday.

Assaulting a Tithe Bailiff in Wales

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the account appearing in the South Wales Daily News of the 8th July instant, relating to a charge against eight persons for an alleged assault on a tithe bailiff named Robert Lewis, at Crymmych, Pembrokeshire, on the 19th June last; whether he is aware that the accused were on Monday the 6th July arrested under a warrant early in the morning, and afterwards taken to a lock-up, and marched in single file through the public streets of Cardigan town, and that the police refused to produce the warrant to the accused or their solicitor; whether, in the interval of nearly three weeks between the alleged offence and the arrest, there was any indication given, or any reason to suppose, that the defendants could not be served with a summons, and would not appear in answer to a summons; what was the reason of their being charged within the Cilgerran Division, and whether the alleged offence was committed outside that Division; whether he is aware that the clerk to the Magistrates in the Cilgerran Division is also the local solicitor to the Clergy Association of South Cardiganshire and North Pembrokeshire, and whether this gentleman in his capacity as such solicitor has recently applied for the aid of the military or large forces of police to attend at tithe distraints and sales and has been refused; by whose authority and on whose initiative the warrant for the arrest of the accused was issued; and whether the arrests under a warrant without a summons having been previously issued are under the circumstances sanctioned by him; and, if not, what steps he will take in the matter?

I am informed by the Chief Constable of Pembrokeshire that seven of the defendants were detained in the lock-up while waiting for the train. On arrival at Cardigan they walked with the police from the station to the office of the Justices' clerk, about 400 yards, and were there admitted to bail. It is not the fact that the police refused to produce the warrants. They were read over and explained in Welsh to each person when arrested. I am informed by the clerk to the Justices that on June 28 he received from the Chief Constable a list of the names and addresses of nine persons who were present in the crowd when the alleged assault took place. On June 30 the complainant laid an information on oath that he had just and reasonable cause to suspect these persons, and applied for warrants, which were issued. He was doubtful whether the accused parties, who were personally unknown to him, would appear to a summons. Under these circumstances, the Magistrates, in the exercise of the discretion vested in them by law, granted warrants in the first instance. The alleged offence took place partly within the Division of Cilgerran and partly within that of Cemmaes, and within 500 yards of the boundary of Cilgerran Division,. Had the defendants not been charged in Cilgerran, it would have necessitated their being taken a distance of 15 miles, and their waiting more than a week for the case to be heard. The clerk is acting as described for the Clergy Association, and has applied for military or police protection for the bailiff attending tithe distraints. To avoid the embarrassment which might arise from his acting in this capacity, he took no part in the hearing of this case on the 7th, but obtained a substitute to act for him. It is no part of my duty to interfere with the discretion of Magistrates in the matter of issuing warrants. They are guided by the special circumstances of the case, and have full power to act as they did under the Statute 11 & 12 Vic., c. 43, s. 2.

Fatal Railway Accident

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to a fatal accident to J. R. Gay, aged 10 years, who was travelling in an East End excursion train on the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway to Southend, when, owing to the door of the carriage being left unlocked, the child fell out and was killed; whether lie is aware that the communication cord of the train was out of order, and the train was not stopped until a considerable time after the accident; whether he is aware that this is the fifth case of a child having fallen from a train during the last 10 days; and whether he can take any steps in the matter?

* : My attention has been called to the fatal accident referred to, which occurred on the London, Tilbury, and Southend line. It appears that while the deceased, aged 10 years, was returning to London from Southend he turned the handle of the carriage door and fell out. The company state that the fastening of the door was in working order, and that the communication cord was not connected because it was not required under the Act, as the train was not running 20 miles without stopping at a station. I am aware that similar accidents have recently happened, but in most of them there appears to have been a want of caution on the part of the sufferers. It is difficult to provide against accidents to which the carelessness of passengers contributes, and there are obvious objections to locking as well as fastening the carriage doors.

Mr. Nepean

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War under what circumstances Mr. Nepean, the late Director of Contracts, resigned; and whether he receives any pension?

* : Mr. Nepean retires at his own request under a Treasury authority which, with a view to considerable reductions and economy, sanctions the retirement of members of the higher establishment of the War Office who are over 50 years of age or have over 30 years' service on the pensions they have earned by service without any addition on account of premature retirement. Mr. Nepean has had 38 years' service, but in view of all the circumstances of the case he will not draw any pension till he has attained the age of 60 years, when he would be entitled to retire under any circumstances.

Liverpool Post Office

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the result of the negotiations for the acquisition of a site for a new post office in Liverpool?

Arrangements have been made for acquiring a site for the Liverpool Post Office in Victoria Street. The cost, however, is very heavy, and will require a Supplemental Estimate, which is included among those ordered by the House to be printed a few days ago.

Newfoundland

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if Her Majesty's Government have held out any expectation that people in Newfoundland who have set up lobster factories, or otherwise acted in opposition to the modus vivendi, will be compensated by the Imperial Government at the expense of the British taxpayer; and whether they have any reason to suppose that there is any foundation for the suggestion that, since the decision in the Baird case, new factories have been started with a view to their being closed and their owners enabled to claim heavy compensation from the Imperial Government?

I would refer the hon. Member to the Despatch of March 12, printed at pages 34 and 35 of the Parliamentary Paper C. 6334, presented in April last. This Despatch has been published in the Government Gazette of Newfoundland. Her Majesty's Government are aware that a considerable number of new factories have been erected since last season, but they have not received information which would enable them to state that fresh ones have been set on foot since the decision of the Baird case with the object indicated in the question.

Importation of Spirits into West Coast of Africa

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the importation of European spirits for the use of the natives is still permitted in the Protectorates and Chartered territories on the West Coast of Africa, and if it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to continue to permit that traffic; and if there is foundation for the complaint of the Chartered Niger Company that, while they levy heavy duties on that importation, in the Oil Rivers Protectorate the importation is free or much more lightly taxed?

The question of the importation of spirits will be regulated by the Brussels Act, when ratified. Where it is permitted it will be controlled. In large districts, such as the Mussulman territories of the Western Soudan under the Niger Company, and territories under the other Chartered Companies to which the 91st Article of the Act applies, it will be altogether prohibited. Hitherto it has been impossible to levy duties in the Oil Rivers Protectorate, but they will be levied in future under the Customs system organised by Major Macdonald.

Am I to understand that Her Majesty's Government require that spirits shall be admitted at duties provided by the Brussels Conference, or can they exercise their own will?

I am not prepared to say any more on the subject than I have done. I cannot go into particulars without further notice.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in all the British Crown Colonies on the West Coast of Africa, the importation of European spirits for the consumption of the natives of the interior, as well as in the colonies, is still permitted; and if it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to continue to permit that traffic?

We have requested the different Governors of Her Majesty's possessions on the West Coast of Africa to report what steps it will be necessary to take to give effect to the recommendations of the Brussels Conference, one of the roost important of which deals with the importation of spirits. As regards a duty, however, we already levy a higher rate of Customs duty than the minimum prescribed by the Conference, and, it is believed, higher than that at present levied by any other European Power on the coast. The Revenue chiefly depends on the Customs receipts, and if the importation of spirits were altogether forbidden the only effect would be to divert the trade from our own colonies to those of other Powers which border on them. We do much by exacting as high a duty as it is possible to levy without encouraging smuggling, which already largely exists.

Pleuro-Pneumonia

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that certain cattle, belonging to T. Potter, esquire, W. M. Oates, esquire, and Mr. Ibbetson, farmer, all in the County of Notts, have, without apparent reason, been slaughtered by order of a travelling Inspector of the Board as having been exposed to infection from pleuro-pneumonia; and whether he can state the circumstances under which they became exposed to this infection?

No, Sir; I am not aware of any cattle having been slaughtered without reasons in Nottinghamshire, whether the reasons were apparent or not. Three animals belonging to Mr. Potter, one heifer belonging to Mr. Oates, and one belonging to Mr. Ibbetson have been slaughtered, not by order of the travelling Inspector, but by direct order of the Board. Of Mr. Potter's animals one was found to be diseased, and although the cattle belonging to Mr. Oates and Mr. Ibbetson were found to be free, these animals were some of many sold by Mr. Tucker, of Southampton. Disease, it has been found, as I stated two days ago, has existed on his premises for a long time, and it has been necessary to trace as far as possible, and in some cases to slaughter, those which have recently left his premises. Out of 65 animals thus traced and slaughtered 13 have been found diseased, and I am informed that five others died previously. I regret to have to add that in the case of two other gentlemen in Nottinghamshire who bought cattle from Mr. Tucker pleuropneumonia was found to exist in both cases upon the slaughter of the animals.

Education in Scotland

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Government adhere to their decision to refuse to grant a Return of the funds devoted to secondary education in Scotland during this Session; and whether, referring to the promise of the Government to procure information on this question before dealing with the surplus grant next year, that information will be laid before the House of Commons, and in what shape?

* : I have already stated the reasons why the Government are not prepared to grant the Return referred to, which would not, in our opinion, add materially to the information furnished in the last Report of the Educational Endowments Commissioners. It will be the duty of the Department not only, as I then stated, to obtain the most recent statistics on the subject, but also carefully to examine these, and to gather as full information as possible with regard to the organisation of higher education and the operation of funds devoted to it. In connection with any consideration of the question of assistance to higher education, we shall necessarily state to the House the results of these inquiries; but it would be premature, until the materials are collected, to determine the shape in which such information may be most conveniently submitted.

I hope that the information will be first presented to the House in the speech of the Minister who moves the proposal.

* : The right hon. Baronet is looking a long way ahead. I have no doubt that the course taken will be satisfactory to the House.

I beg to ask the Solicitor General for Scotland upon whose authority, and upon what evidence, he made the statement, on behalf of the Government, that School Boards in Scotland have made their financial arrangements for the current year upon the basis of the Minute of the Scotch Education Department of 11th June last; whether he is aware that the latest statutory date for School Boards certifying to the assessing authority is 12th. June in each year; and whether, considering that the Minute of the Department only became law on 12th inst., the Scotch Education Department had any evidence that one single School Board in Scotland had made their financial arrangements for the current year upon the basis of the Minute?

* : I understand that the Solicitor General referred to the fact that the proposal to extend relief of fees to 14 years of age had been before the House for some months, and that the terms of the Minute were announced to the House on the 11th June, and published in the Scotch newspapers next day. The arrangement contemplated was thus known to the School Boards at the date when the re-question to the Parochial Board had to be made, and we have reason to believe that, as a general rule, School Boards will be able, with the additional 1s. of capitation grant, to meet the financial results of the Minute, but that any extension of the terms at this period might lead to serious financial difficulty.

Jamaica

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a question which has lately arisen in the Jamaica Legislature with reference to the holding of seats in that body by two gentlemen who are the solicitors to the Jamaica Railway, a property which is still to a considerable extent owned by the Crown; whether he is aware that the question was submitted to a Committee of the elective members of the Council, a body numbering only nine, including the two members referred to; and whether the Secretary of State for the Colonies proposes to take any action in the matter?

The question was lately raised in Jamaica whether the seats in the Legislative Council of two gentlemen had become vacant by reason of their having, as solicitors to the Jamaica Railway, become parties to a contract with the Government. The Legislative Council, in which the decision of such questions is vested by the Constitution, referred the matter to a Select Committee consisting of the Attorney General and four elected members, who reported that the two members referred to were not parties to a contract with the Government, and had not vacated their seats. This Report was adopted by the Council. The Council consists of seven official and nominated members, and nine elected members. The two members whose seats were in question were, of course, not members of the Select Committee. The Secretary of State for the Colonies does not propose to take any action in the matter.

Naval Knights College at Windsor

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty has come to any decision in regard to the contemplated scheme for the better utilisation of the endowments connected with the College of the Naval Knights at Windsor; and, if so, when it will be promulgated?

Any alteration in the foundation of the Naval Knights of Windsor will require legislative sanction, and I do not propose to introduce a Bill to deal with the question this Session. This institution is founded on celibate and monastic principles, which in practice we find do not always harmonise with the habits of the 19th century, and it has been extremely difficult to find candidates who will carry out the spirit of the founder's wishes. Certain circumstances were brought to my notice last year which convinced me that a considerable change, sooner or later, is necessary to secure the benefits of the Trust to deserving naval officers.

Metropolitan Railways

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the great inconvenience that is caused to the public by the constant failure of the South Eastern Railway and the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway to keep to the times in their published time-tables, he will take steps to restrict these companies from putting more traffic and running more trains on their lines than they have the requisite accommodation for?

* : The matters referred to by the hon. Member are not among those with which Parliament has authorised the Board of Trade to deal.

Am I to understand that the Board of Trade have no power to place any check or limit on the number of trains run in the course of a day; and, if so, has not the time arrived for the Department to come to the House and get further powers in this direction?

* : Most certainly not. In my opinion, that would be practically giving over to the Board of Trade the decision as to the working of the railways.

Voluntary Schools in Whitechapel

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the enormous increase in the rating of voluntary schools in Whitechapel; whether he is aware that in several instances the rating has been doubled and trebled, with the effect of rendering the existence of these schools most difficult; whether he is aware that, in the case of St. Stephen's School, Quaker Street, the rating has been raised from £20 to £92, and that, in consequence of the nonpayment of rates, the furniture and a harmonium have been seized; and if he will take steps to prevent this increase in the rating of these voluntary schools?

I am aware that a crushing addition to the rating of voluntary schools in the Metropolis was threatened, but no information has reached me as to the disastrous result which has attended the step in the school to which the hon. Member has referred. The Department has no power to interfere, but looking to the extreme gravity of the crisis in its probable effects upon many voluntary schools, I hope the support of the hon. Member will be accorded to any attempt that may be made to deal with the difficulty next Session.

Metropolitan Overseers Lists

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will grant the Return to be moved for to-day in reference to the Metropolitan Overseers Lists for the coming revision?

I am making inquiries as to whether this information can be obtained with sufficient accuracy for presentation to Parliament. In any case, the wording of the Return has to be very carefully considered; and it is not clear that it ought to be confined to the Metropolis. Should it seem desirable to extend the Return to the whole of the United Kingdom the Scotch and Irish Governments will have to be consulted.

Agricultural and Dairy Education in Wales

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture what is the amount expended out of the Exchequer during the past year towards the cost of Agricultural and Dairy Education and Attendant Expenses in Wales; and what portion of £8,000 estimated expenditure for Agricultural and Dairy Education for the year 1891–2 is allocated for England, Scotland, and Wales respectively?

The grants to agricultural and dairy schools for agricultural experiments are not allocated according to any geographical considerations, but awarded to such institutions as in the judgment of the Board, after inspection and after consideration of the local support accorded, appear to have the highest claims for assistance. In 1890–91 a sum of £4,840 was expended in grants. Of this sum, £500 was awarded to the University College of North Wales at Bangor, the highest sum awarded by the Board to any institution in Great Britain. No other Welsh institution preferred a claim, but the Bath and West of England Agricultural Society received £350 in respect of its itinerant dairy classes in 1890–91, and among the counties visited by that Society were Radnor, Brecon, and Pembroke, so that a portion of this grant, which cannot be separately distinguished, was expended in supply agricultural instruction in South Wales.

Seamen's Hospital at Smyrna

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to convert a portion of the Seamen's Hospital at the Port of Smyrna into a chapel; if so, whether he is aware that the available space in the hospital is barely adequate for the present wants, while the increasing trade of the port will certainly require additional accommodation; and whether, in consideration of the fact that even the reduced dues levied upon shipping for the support of the hospital more than defray the whole of the expenses, Her Majesty's Government will re-consider the proposal with a view to refusing its sanction?

A suggestion to this effect was made, but upon investigation it has been rejected.

Brussels Act

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the time for completing the Brussels Conference has been extended; and, if so, to what date; and whether he can state what action Her Majesty's Government propose to take in view of the course taken by France and Portugal?

* : The principle of extending the period for ratification has been accepted, but the limit has not been decided. Her Majesty's Government have concurred in this extension in view of the postponement of ratification by France, Portugal, and the United States. Nothing can be stated as to what course may be taken after the period is fixed.

The Roxteth Rifle Range

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a serious accident which occurred last week in Northolt Road, Eastcote, to Mr. Walter Heron, while passing along the road, whose skull was badly fractured by a bullet fired at the Roxteth rifle range; whether he is aware that for some years this range has been looked upon as dangerous to the public using the road; and whether steps will at once be taken to close the range?

* : An accident on June 3 was reported in connection with one of the two ranges near Harrow used by the Volunteers. The ranges have been closed for some weeks pending inquiry.

The Inland Revenue

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state when the reply will be sent to the Petition of the supervisors, officers, and assistants of Inland Revenue which was some time ago presented to the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury; whether he is aware that a considerable number of Members on both sides of the House have been asked to interest themselves upon the subject of the Petition, and that it will be raised and debated at length on the Estimates; and whether, with a view of saving the time of the House, he can, on an early day, make some statement which will be satisfactory to the petitioners and render any discussion on the Estimates unnecessary?

* : I considered last year, with the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, the representations of the Excise staff, to whom the question of the hon. Member refers, and, after careful and prolonged examination, we came to the conclusion that on some points the officers made out a fair case, and that on other points they did not. In pursuance of this conclusion I sanctioned additions to the pay and allowances of the force, which involved a charge on the tax, payers rising in four or five years to nearly £70,000 a year. The memorial which is now before me raises one or two questions, such as that connected with the cost of agricultural statistics, which we have been able to meet, but, in the main, it asks for the concession of those points which neither I nor the Board of Inland Revenue thought ourselves justified in granting last year. So far as I see at present, the memorialists do not bring forward any substantial new reasons in support of their claims. At the same time, I am anxious that all members of the Service should feel that claims are thoroughly and carefully investigated and considered. This I can assure the House is done. With reference to the second part of the hon. Member's question, I am aware and deeply regret the fact that political pressure is sought to be put on Members of this House. Indeed, if this system of lobbying should go beyond its present dimensions, I can scarcely foresee the consequences which may ensue, both to the discipline of the force and the cost of the Service. But I hold that the Executive Government of the day is bound by every consideration of duty to be insensible to that pressure when they are not convinced of the equity of the claims which are urged. With reference to the last question, I doubt whether it will be possible for me to make any further statement satisfactory to the petitioners beyond that which I have now made; and, if necessary, I must defend our course in the Debates on the Estimates. At all events, I must not be influenced in a matter which would involve an additional burden of £100,000 on the taxpayer, beyond the increase of £70,000, the future burden of last year's concession, even for the purpose of saving the time of the House.

Before a final reply is made, will it be possible for some of the petitioners to see personally the head officials at Somerset House in order that they may place their case before them?

* : That is a question for the Board of Inland Revenue to consider. As far as I am aware, the Board of Inland Revenue has shown the utmost desire to meet the view of all parties. I will communicate with the Board on the subject.

The Training Ship "Southampton."

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will withdraw the order to refuse boys under 12 years of age admission to the Humber Training Ship Southampton, such a change being most likely to ruin a prosperous school ship; and whether he is aware that this change will only affect three school ships, and, therefore, cannot be founded upon any proper experience of harm done by accepting boys up to 12 years of age, the three ships in question having a most prosperous record of the work done by them during the last 25 years?

The operation of this order has been suspended. I do not wish to dispute that excellent work has been done by the managers of these ships, and the inspectors do not specify any particular case of hardship having arisen on any particular ship as necessitating an alteration of the rule, but their experience has led them to the conclusion that it is to the public advantage, both on moral and physical grounds, and in the interests of effective training for sea service, that boys should not be admitted to these ships at a very tender age. The rule excluding boys under 12 is either in force, or agreed to by five out of the eight industrial school ships, and is compulsory on all school ships certified since 1876.

Ancient Monuments in Egypt

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have yet been taken to carry out the promise of the Egyptian Government to appoint two inspectors charged with the duty of examining and taking steps for the due custody and preservation of the monuments of ancient Egypt; what sum it is proposed by the Egyptian Government to appropriate for the purpose of this preservation on the Ancient Monuments; and whether any Papers can be presented to Parliament relating to this subject?

Nothing definite has yet been settled. £910,000 has been allotted in the Budget for the current year.

Dam Across the Nile

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any truth in the report that the Egyptian Government are considering a scheme for the construction of a dam across the Nile at the top of the First Cataract immediately below the Island of Philae; whether the effect of the construction of such a dam as is proposed would be to raise the summer or flood level of the Nile more than 50 feet above the point which it now reaches, and thereby to submerge for some weeks the greater part of the temples on the Island of Philae, effacing thereby the colour of the wall paintings, covering the columns and sculptured walls with mud, and involving the ultimate destruction of the temples themselves, which are among the most interesting monuments of Egyptian art; and whether alternative schemes have been suggested for the construction of dams at other points higher up the river than Philae, by which little or no injury would be done to any historic buildings, while the object of obtaining a reservoir of water supply would be equally well attained?

There is no information in the Foreign Office with reference to this report. The hon. Member's question will be referred to Her Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul General at Cairo.

Assault at Drumlamph

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that two men, named Porter and Fullerton, were assaulted without the least provocation on the evening of the 29th of June, at Drumlamph, in the County of Londonderry, by a band marching home from some party fete; that Porter was badly injured, and has been under medical care since; and that two constables were present but did not afford any protection, and can he explain why no proceedings have been taken against the assailants?

The Constabulary Authorities report that it is the case that the two men named were injured by members of a band. Warrants have been issued against two men charged with the offence, and who, it is reported, have absconded; but every effort is being made to effect their arrest. One constable was present. A complaint was made against him by the injured men, and the County Inspector at once took steps to have it inquired into. The case against the constable is still sub judice.

Death from Exposure

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that James Gallagher, upwards of 80 years of age, who in a distress state lived in the village of Ardhoum, electoral division of Meelick, was obliged to travel over four miles every day to relief works in another division, and that he was taken ill from exposure on 17th June, and died on 20th, and whether it would be possible to open relief works in the division of Meelick, so as to render it unnecessary for old and feeble people in distress to travel into another division for relief work?

The man referred to was, I am informed, 60 years of age. He did not die from exposure, but from a complaint of long standing. He frequently lodged at the place where the works were going on. His friends made no complaint about his death having been accelerated by exposure on the works, but, on the contrary, expressed themselves to the police as being most grateful for the assistance which had been rendered him. No necessity has been found for opening relief works in Meelick. There are works proceeding at three places, all within reach of Meelick.

Ordnance Maps of Ireland

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether complaints have reached him that the set of Ordnance maps of Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom in the National Library, Dublin, is incomplete and out of date; that there is no regular agency in Belfast for the supply of Ordnance maps, and that consequently there is often delay and accruing inconvenience in the supply of them in that city; and whether he can take any steps to establish an agency for these maps in Belfast?

I have heard no complaints about the set of Ordnance maps in the National Library, Dublin, but I will communicate with my right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, in case there should be any defects that can be remedied. There is no agency in Belfast, because under the existing system there is only one agent for the sale of Ordnance maps, but I believe there is no difficulty in obtaining from him promptly any maps that are required through any map-seller. The question of whether the present system of distribution of Ordnance maps should be changed is now under the consideration of the Board of Agriculture and the Treasury.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is always four days' delay in obtaining any Ordnance map in Belfast, and that the one-inch map in the Dublin National Library is 50 years old, and only of historical interest?

I should have thought there ought to have been no difficulty in obtaining these maps in Belfast by return of post. I am not aware of the other facts stated by the hon. Member. I will inquire into the matter.

Inland Revenue Office, Dublin

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will explain why it is that four supervisors, who are already fully employed in their own department, are doing the work of clerks in the Inland Revenue Office, Dublin, although second-class assistants are competent for the duty now being performed by the four supervisors, and are available?

I will not ask the cource from which the hon. Member derives his information, but he is incorrectly informed. The Clerical Supervisors and officers are employed on their respective duties. No assistant is competent to perform the duties of a supervisor and no assistant is available or unemployed in Dublin.

The River Ilen, Skibbereen

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a Resolution unanimously agreed to by the Skibbereen Town Commissioners, in the County of Cork, protesting against the construction of a three-arch railway bridge across the River Ilen at Skibbereen, and calling attention to the suffering and sickness which have, in the past, been caused by floods in Skibbereen; and whether steps will be taken to provide a one-span bridge for the light railway, and thus prevent any obstruction in the river's course?

This question ought to have been addressed to my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury. Perhaps the hon. Member will put it down for another day?

Engine Drivers

I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland if any instructions could be given to relieve from the severity of immediate arrest engine drivers whose engines may accidentally cause death on railway lines; is it the fact that, even in cases where suicide is committed by persons throwing themselves under the engine, the arrest of the driver follows; and, as engine drivers, when arrested in these cases, are frequently wet, cold, and hungry after their trips, will the attention of the police be called to the great hardship of detaining them overnight in the cells to await magisterial investigation instead of taking their names, or allow some discretion to the police, at any rate, where the driver himself reports the occurrence?

promised to make inquiries on the subject.

Queen's College, Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the event of vacancies arising in the Chairs of the Irish Queen's Colleges, the claims of properly qualified Queen's College students will be taken into account; and if the Queen's Colleges are unable to turn out men so qualified, will the Government consider the propriety of decreasing (or discontinuing) grants to these Colleges?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the education given in the Queen's Colleges in Ireland has been proved by all possible tests, such as the examinations for the Indian Civil Service and other public appointments, to be equal or superior to that of any other colleges in the Empire; whether he is aware that the Queen's Colleges cannot always produce the best men for their own professorships owing to the fact that the Queen's Colleges have not got fellowships which would enable their students to pursue their studies to such an extent as to fit them for professorships; and whether, in view of this excellence on the part of the Queen's Colleges, as far as their endowments enable them to go, he will, in the event of the Queen's College students not being found sufficiently learned for any professorships that may shortly become vacant, consider the propriety of increasing the grants to these colleges so as to found fellowships connected with them?

The claims of all properly qualified Queen's College students who may be candidates for vacancies in the chairs of the Irish Queen's Colleges will receive careful consideration. There is no reason to suppose that these colleges are unable to turn out men so qualified, but in promoting the usefulness of these institutions it is considered advisable to open the chairs to all comers, and to select from among them the man who appears best qualified for the duties. The students of these colleges have in all professions and in the public competitions acquitted themselves with honour to themselves and with credit to their colleges.

Lough Erne

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Local Board at Enniskillen, by whom the Lough Erne works of arterial drainage and navigation have been carried out during a period of ten years, was under the supervision and control of the Commissioners of Public Works in Dublin; were all moneys advanced by the Treasury disbursed by the Commissioners of Public Works; is he aware that the Commissioners, although in 1880 they approved an estimate of £74,000, to be repaid from 17,500 flooded acres, on 9th October 1890 sanctioned an outlay of £178,330, and that, in addition, there is a yearly charge of £1,000 for the maintenance of the works, repayable in 98 half-yearly instalments of £3,631 3s. 2d. each; is he also aware that the Commissioners have made this award upon accounts furnished without date, audit, or signature; and whether, having regard to all the peculiar circumstances of the case, the Government will grant a sworn inquiry into the matters, to be held in Enniskillen, the central town of the drainage district?

The Lough Erne Drainage Works were carried out by the Local Drainage Board, who were not under the supervision or control of the Board of Works. The loans sanctioned by the Treasury for the execution of these works were advanced to the Local Drainage Board by whom the money was disbursed. The first estimate was £74,000 The excess over that amount was sanctioned be the Board of Works on the application of the Drainage Board. Of this excess about £25,000 arises from the accumulation of interest on the advances, owing to the delay which took place in executing the works. The cost of maintaining the works will vary, and under good management by the Local Board may be considerably less than £1,000 per annum. The accounts of expenditure have from time to time been furnished to the Board of Works by the Drainage Board, properly signed and dated, and have been duly audited by the Board of Works Accountant.

Irish Relief Works

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that numbers of the poor people in the Division of Selerna were struck off the relief works at this most critical period of the year, leaving them without any sustenance whatever; if he will instruct the Local Government Board to have them at once reinstated to prevent widespread, distress; and if he will also take steps to provide relief works for the starving people of Leam, who have been deprived of work in consequence of one of the gangers being sent away, no work having been laid out for him?

I believe it is the case that a number of persons have been struck off the relief works at Selerna, but only after a careful inquiry into the circumstances showed that the continuance of relief was not necessary. As to the last paragraph of the question, perhaps the hon. Member will put it down again, further defining the district.

In reply to MR. SEXTON,

There is no date fixed for the continuance of relief works, but the condition of the different localities is taken into account.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if it is true that a number of relief works instituted by the Government in West and South Cork will be left unfinished, and that it is proposed to tax the cess payers of the County of Cork, as suggested by the County Surveyor to the West Riding of the County of Cork, to supply the alleged deficiency; and, if so, which of the works in course of construction will be left unfinished?

I have not yet been able to obtain the information that would enable me to answer this question.

Potato Blight

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture which of the proposed remedies for potato blight is considered the best for use in Ireland, namely, the sulphate of copper dressing, the sulphate of iron, or Bichon's patent remedy; and whether, in the opinion of experts, any of these dressings can be successfully applied without complete destruction of all infective refuse and thorough preparation of the soil where an infected crop has been recently grown?

What is most desirable in Ireland is a matter, I think, more for the opinion of the Chief Secretary than mine; but, generally speaking, I may say that the question of the best remedy for potato blight is now the subject of a series of experiments which are being carried out for the Board of Agriculture by the Royal Agricultural Society in England, and by the Highland and Agricultural Society in Scotland. I believe that further experiments are also being made in Ireland. Until these experiments have been reported on, I shall not be in a position to give a definite reply to the hon. Member's question. All the information in the possession of the Board of Agriculture respecting foreign experiments and the steps to be taken as to the destruction of infective refuse has been published in the Report of the Intelligence Department of the Board and in a recent leaflet, and in that Report special attention is directed to the necessity of destroying all infective refuse.

Tullamore Prison

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will communicate to this House the terms of the Report of the Experts on the sanitary condition of Tullamore Prison?

There will be no objection raised on behalf of the Government if the hon. Member desires to move for a return of Reports of Sir Charles Cameron and Mr. Kaye Parry on the drainage of Tullamore Prison.

Pier at Red Gap

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received any resolution or memorial from the inhabitants of Labasheeda, county Clare, in reference to the building of a pier at Red Gap on the Shannon, from which to ship and unload the imports and exports of that locality; and whether, having regard to the fact that when the Lord Lieutenant was on his late tour in that district, Colonel Lloyd and Mr. Reeves brought him to Red Gap, pointed out the necessity for the pier, and obtained His Excellency's promise that it would be erected, and also to the fact that there is neither pier nor landing stage nearer Labasheeda than 7 miles on the one side and 12 on the other, he will advise or authorise the erection of a small pier at this point?

It is the case that a memorial signed by Mr. Reeves, Colonel Lloyd, and others, praying for the construction of a pier at the place mentioned was forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant; but there is nothing to suggest that His Excellency gave a promise of the nature stated. On the contrary the memorial expresses regret at his inability to visit the place. On the general question, however, I may say that having regard to the large sums of money recently provided by Parliament for public works in Ireland the Government would not feel justified at the present time in bringing forward proposals for further grants.

The Crimes Act

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many prosecutions of men on strike have been made under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act?

Perhaps the hon. Member will repeat the question on a later day. I have not been able to obtain the information.

West Cork Mails

I beg to ask the Postmaster General what was the exact amount which the proposed acceleration of the mails to Skibbereen and West Cork would cost; and whether the Cork and Bandon and West Cork Railway had offered any facilities in the matter?

* : The Railway Company expressed their readiness to afford the suggested acceleration of the day mail train for a further payment by the Post Office of £2,703 a year, to that extent increasing the cost of a service on which there is already a loss of £1,680 a year.

The Plymouth Trade Union Case

Will the Home Secretary lay on the Table a copy of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the Plymouth Trade Union case?

If an authentic copy of the Judgment of the Court of Appeal in the Plymouth Trade Union case can be obtained, I shall have no objection to cause it to be issued as a Parliamentary Paper.

Public Business

I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now answer the question which I put to him yesterday, whether, in the event of his Motion for the suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule being accepted, he will on the part of the Government undertake to oppose after 12 o'clock all private Members' Bills as to which notice of opposition may have been given?

If private Members will not come down to air their obstructive tactics after 12 o'clock, is it the business of the Government to do anything to assist them?

* : Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer include the Hanover Chapel Bill in those measures which the Government will oppose after 12 o'clock?

The question put by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Robertson) really concerns the House more than the Government, and I can well conceive that there may be two opinions on the subject. There are, as the hon. Member is aware, certain Bills which are almost unanimously approved by the House. There is one private Member's Bill, for instance, on which there is a considerable feeling on both sides, and that is the Betting of Infants Bill. Members on both sides almost unanimously desire to see that Bill passed. If it were the general wish of the House, I should cheerfully accede to the view of the hon. Member, but I am reluctant to exclude all possibility of Bills being advanced which the House almost unanimously desires to see passed, and I should not like to exclude them without further consideration and inquiry. I will make further inquiry, and endeavour to ascertain the views of hon. Members in all parts of the House on the subject.

* : Will the Army and Navy Votes be taken after the Civil Service Estimates?

* : The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question in reference to the Hanover Chapel Bill.

The Hanover Chapel Bill is a private Bill, and must follow the ordinary procedure. It is proposed to take the Lords' Amendments to the Irish Land Purchase Bill on this day week, if that falls in with the general wish of the House. It is not proposed to take the remaining Army Votes until Class 4 of the Civil Service Estimates has been passed.

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pledge the Government that when Government business extends to one o'clock, private Members' Bills shall then be opposed by the Front Bench, so that Members who have given notice of opposition shall not be compelled to attend after that hour?

The latter proposal I will accept at once. If the House has gone on sitting beyond one o'clock there ought to be no necessity for any hon. Member to come down. I thought that was understood.

They will be taken in their order. I cannot forecast the time which will be occupied with the Estimates which intervene, but I hope it will not be long.

May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether the half-past 12 o'clock rule still obtains, or whether it has been repealed?

New Member Sworn

John Hammond, esquire, for the County of Carlow.

Navy (Squadrons Abroad)

Copy ordered—

"Of Return showing the Comparative Strength of our Naval Squadrons Abroad in June, 1886, and June, 1891."—( Lord George Hamilton. )

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 343.]

Motion

Sittings of the House (Supply and Ways and Means)

(4.25.) Motion made, and Question, proposed,

"That for the remainder of the Session the proceedings of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed."—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. )

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman—

"That this House regrets the manner in which the privileges of hon. Members are constantly being taken away, and by way of protest against such Motion, declines to accept the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer."

* : I am afraid that the Amendment is not relevant to the Motion. The Motion refers only to the taking away of the Twelve o'clock Rule, and the rights of private Members are scarcely affected thereby.

Then I presume that I may speak against the Motion if that is in order?

I think that five minutes may be usefully employed in showing that private Members are treated very badly by both Front Benches. It seems to me that it is no use a Member coming into Parliament as a private Member, even if he should express the opinions of all the people of England, because the two Front Benches make little arrangements of their own by which everybody is to be smothered unless he is a right honourable or hopes to become one. [An hon. MEMBER: That means everybody.] It does not include me. I am not one, and never shall be one; but I know that in regard to many important Bills which have been brought before the House, the opinion of the people is my opinion. Take, for instance, the Sunday Closing Bill for Ireland, and also for England and Wales. I consider those Bills better than any 10 Bills which either the Gevernment or the Opposition have produced in the present Session. The People of England—with a capital "P"—will be more glad to have those Bills than any which will be passed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Colleagues, or the Front Bench opposite either, even if the Session lasts until the 31st of December. The Front Benches play into the hands of each other, and ignore their friends. It is very discouraging to men who give up their time and energy, and occasionally make themselves ill in trying to do their duty to their constituents, to find that their leaders treat them with contempt—I mean, of course, in a Parliamentary sense. I do not say that the right honourables insult them. They say they will do the best they can for them, but nothing ever comes of it. Having some very good measures of my own, the Second Reading of which has been accepted by both sides, I think I and my constituents are as much entitled to be heard as right hon. Gentlemen. I am as much a Member of Parliament as any one of them, and I feel as much sense of my own importance as they do. Consequently, I protest against the Resolution being carried, because it is not the proper method of doing business, and to show that I am not to be treated in this way, I shall certainly divide the House. In another Session I will obstruct a good deal further, because then I shall do as the hon. Member for Northampton said he would do at the beginning of this Session. If I cannot propose my Bill, which I consider better than those of the Government, I will show that I am not to be defeated in this way. I think I am entitled to speak for my constituents as well as other Members for theirs.

I have listened to the eloquent and wise discourse of the hon. Member, and I feel bound, as one who seldom speaks here, to give him my warm sympathy and assistance. I sincerely hope that he will stick to his point in the way he has indicated, and that he will defeat this proposition put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I feel very deeply the insult which is offered to Ireland. I have a little Bill of great importance to the labourers of Ireland. It is to grant them half an acre or an acre of land; but the opportunity for it is past. I protest against the time of the House being taken in this fashion, and the injustice which is being done to Irish Members.

I listened with great interest to the instructive, and what I call the noble protest of the hon. Member for Boston against the coercion of private Members. I think the time has come when they ought to deliver themselves from the slavery under which they have laboured. I also agree with him that the several measures which he has mentioned are more deserving of attention than most of those which have been proposed by Her Majesty's Govern- ment. I believe measures of Sunday closing in Ireland, and in other places, are more valued by the country than the measures which have been passed by the Government. Sir, you have pointed out with perfect truth that these observations have not a direct bearing upon the Motion before the House, because sitting beyond 12 o'clock will not in any way affect the chances of private Members. I am afraid I myself come under the displeasure of the hon. Member for Boston, for he has levelled his complaints against gentlemen sitting on both Front Benches. Still, I think both sides of the House are anxious to bring the Session to a close, especially after they have been put to the inconvenience of meeting in November; and, under the circumstances, Supply should have been put in a prominent place, that it might be properly discussed. Over and over again I have said that any attempt to reduce the Votes by a few pounds is seldom successfully attempted, but it is a great opportunity to question and examine the conduct of the Executive Government in all its departments. To thrust Supply to the fag end of the Session is, therefore, practically to defeat the inquisition which the House of Commons has the right and the duty to perform. It is quite plain that at the fag end of the Session a great number of Members must be away, and that the Government are placed in a position with reference to Supply which they would not be in if it were brought on at a proper time of the Session. I confess that when this Motion is made it is right we should protest against the position in which we find ourselves with regard to Supply. Ireland is now lying under the exceptional law of the Coercion Bill, and Irish Members have a special right in Committee of Supply to question the action of the Executive Government, and it is very hard upon them, I think, that they should be placed at any disadvantage in matters of this kind. With regard to the Motion, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give the House the assurance that if this Motion is passed the Government will not abuse the licence, and that it is not meant to extend the sitting beyond one o'clock. If it is only intended that the strict rule of 12 o'clock shall not interfere with securing a Vote which has been discussed, and that it is not intended to extend the sittings to an unreasonable hour, I for one shall not be disposed to oppose the Motion.

As I said yesterday, this is a grievance to Ireland. We have protested from time to time against the un businesslike way in which Supply is conducted. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, we are living under an exceptional coercive law, and owing to the extent which in recent Sessions and this Session, the Government have taken the time of private Members, we are deprived of all opportunity to call attention to Irish administration save in Committee of Supply. Is it not scandalous, does it not involve a most injurious reflection on the capacity of Members, that after a Session of eight months, not one Irish Vote has been taken, and we have had no opportunity of calling attention to the action of the Irish Secretary with regard to the Coercion Act? It is an intolerable grievance to be obliged to consider these Votes when the House is empty, and under conditions which preclude the public press from reporting discussion in which the country is deeply interested. I would point out that on the order of the Votes the Scotch Votes will be taken first, and it is very likely indeed that the Irish Votes will not be reached until after midnight. I move as an Amendment—"Provided that no Irish Vote in Supply be proceeded with after 12 o'clock."

Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words "Provided that no Irish Votes in Supply be proceeded with after midnight."—( Mr. Sexton. )

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer assents to the Amendment, I shall move that no English Vote be proceeded with after 12 o'clock, and I have no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy will take a similar course with regard to Scotch Votes. The fact is, we are all suffering from an intolerable grievance, and we must take our chance. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for some sort of assurance, and a positive assurance, that next Session we shall have an opportunity of discussing the, Estimates. I confess I am unable to see why we should go to bed at 12 any more than at any other hour; so, personally, I have no feeling in the matter. At the same time, I know that after 12 o'clock there is difficulty in reporting discussions in which our constituents are interested. There is, however, a general desire to bring this Session to an early close, and I therefore hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will assure us that he will not go beyond a little after 12 o'clock or a quarter to 1. I know from experience that our Irish friends are able to lengthen a Debate on any particular Vote, and in that respect they can always take better care of themselves than we unfortunate English can take care of ourselves. The fact is, the poor Englishman is nowhere in this House. Scotch and Irish Members occupy the time, and we are introduced in the interstices of Debate to discuss matters of millions and millions of pounds. I cannot vote with my hon. Friends, because I have my own grievance, and I cannot redress their grievances at the expense of my own.

I wish to point out that it is an invaluable rule which provides that the Votes shall be taken in their consecutive order, and I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that Vote 4 has always been succeeded by the Minister's statement. We have not yet had that statement for the year, and it is one of which we have always received due notice. Is that course to be pursued this year, and are Members to have the Report of the Inspectors as usual, and before the annual statement is made?

I wish to know whether there is any possible chance of discussing the Eight Hours Bill? [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members may laugh at a question in which millions and millions of our workpeople are engaged; but I am within the recollection of the House when I say that the First Lord of the Treasury made a promise—a half promise, or section of a promise—that he would find a day for the discussion of the measure.

* (4.52.) : As I am one of the victims of the eloquence of my hon. Friend behind me, being one of the Members of the Front Bench, I can assure him that there is no desire whatever to suppress either the individuality or the legislative desires of any of those who sit behind us, and I should be sorry if there is any lurking feeling that any discourtesy was intended either to himself personally or to any hon. Members. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby and the hon. Member for Northampton, I have to say that the Government do not propose to sit beyond a reasonable hour after 12 o'clock. Our intention is rather to remove the limit than to extend the Sitting. The convenience of the officers of the House would be considered, and the House may rely upon it that we should only propose to sit so long as we had the general concurrence of hon. Members; we would not push matters beyond an hour which was convenient to them. I am sorry that I cannot assent to the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Belfast, and the hon. Member for Northampton has shown that it would be extremely hard on the members of other nationalities. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby said Irish Members have a special grievance; but I would point out to them that 34 or 35 days were devoted to the Irish Land Purchase Bill, in which Irish Members took a very considerable interest, and, although they have not had time for the discussion of special grievances, I think it will be seen that they have had a fair share of the full time of the House. However, I recognise the special circumstances of Ireland, and it is natural that Irish Members should desire to be able to discuss their grievances on Votes of Supply. But an Irish Estimate might come on early, and might be stopped by one or two Members about midnight. I can assure the Irish Members that there will be no attempt to prolong the Sittings after 12 o'clock against their desire. But a Vote may have been discussed from 8 to 12 o'clock, and may only have reached its termination when 12 o'clock arrived, and though it probably might have passed in another half-hour, we should be obliged to stop its consideration at 12 o'clock.

* : If there was no chance of getting the Vote we should be prepared to deal with it in the spirit I have indicated. I put it broadly that there is no intention to force discussion; all that is intended is the introduction of a little elasticity in dealing with Supply, thereby affording a better opportunity of taking important Votes at a reasonable hour. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Lanark, I see very little hope of taking any discussion on the Eight Hours Bill in the present Session; but the Government are not at all insensible of the immense importance of the question, and the interest which is taken in it out of doors. The appointment of the Labour Commission is surely an indication of the desire of the Government that these questions should be thoroughly threshed out. As to giving a positive pledge that Supply shall be taken earlier next year, I am afraid that it would be useless to give the hon. Member for Northampton a vague assurance. But I would point out that it is quite possible that Members might be so much interested in a Bill as to bring pressure to bear upon the Government to push it forward before taking Supply. I am sure, therefore, that every Member of the House will see that it is really out of my power to give any positive pledge as to Supply, and clearly it would not he of any use to give any vague assurance. Still, it will be remembered that a certain portion of Supply was taken early this year, and, with regard to the observation of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, that there ought to be a serious inquisition of the Foreign, and Colonial, and other Departments, I would observe that both the Foreign and Colonial Votes were pretty fully discussed, and that the inquisition which he thinks ought to take place should take place in the course of the present Session. With regard to the Education Vote, I will communicate with my right hon. Friend the Vice President and see whether his statement can be taken as usual as the first Order of the Day.

* (5.0.) : Whatever course the hon. Member for West Belfast may take, I hope the House will emphatically protest against the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that we will teach this and successive Governments that they must bring forward the Estimates at a very much earlier period of the Session. I may say with truth that the speeches made in the recent discussions in Supply showed an honest desire on the part of the Members on this side of the House that the business of Supply should not be delayed. To discuss items of Supply after 12 o'clock, when there is a handful of Members, and those half asleep or so impatient that they drown the speaker's voice by cries of "Divide," is an absolute farce. It is absurd to ask Members to vote millions of the money of the labouring classes of this country at 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning. I hope we shall divide the House, and that a large minority—we have no chance of a majority—will teach this and succeeding Governments that the Estimates shall be taken at a time when they can be fairly considered.

There is no disposition on this side of the House to deny that the time has arrived when the Government may fairly ask for some concession. It was promised that we should rise by the 1st July, and it should not be forgotten that in November and December the Government made unparalleled progress. They got the Address after two hours' debate, and the Second Reading of the Land Purchase Bill in the course of two or three days. They also got the Land Department Bill, and they met at the end of January with a clean slate and two months ahead. I do not understand how it is the Government have got into distress as they have, but I feel that the promise made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not unreasonable, and I do not think my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast (Mr. Sexton) will be disposed to press his opposition. At the same time, I am bound to say that, when Governments ask the House for time, they are much more disposed to make promises than they afterwards are to perform them. The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer reminds me very much of a speech made by the First Lord of the Treasury, whose absence we all regret, when he was moving the closure rule. The right hon. Gentleman then told us that it was only to be used when every- body had spoken except two or three Members. We all know that the moment the Government got the closure into their hands a Member could hardly open his mouth before the closure was moved. I am sure, however, that the Government will adhere to their promises on the present occasion. For my part, I have never been sorry when Estimates have been rushed through at the end of the Session, because I think we have much more power to extort concessions from the Government under such circumstances than when Supply is finished earlier in the Session. As I understand, we are this year to address ourselves to Class II. of the Irish Estimates first. There are two Votes standing over from Class I.—those relating to railways and the Board of Works—and I will ask the Government whether it is intended to take those two Votes before dealing with the more important Votes in Class II.?

* (5.3.) : I desire to protest against this attempt to interfere with the rights of private Members. The Motion has been thrown upon us without any explanation or any excuse being given; and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer did attempt to answer some questions put to him he did not endavour to give any reasons for the adoption of his proposal. There is no complaint whatever, either inside or outside this House, of any obstruction or attempted obstruction in regard to Supply. [ Cries of "Oh!"] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to indulge in these inhuman cries. I will appeal to the leading organ of the Government, the Times , which stated distinctly yesterday that there is no attempt, in their opinion, at obstruction in the discussion of the Estimates. This proposal is especially hard upon those who attempt to take an interest in the spending of the people's money. Nobody will deny that the most important part of our duty in this House is to supervise that expenditure. The Government have really nothing to gain by their proposal, because, at the very utmost, we should be only asked to stay a few days later if the 12 o'clock Rule were not suspended. I do not believe we shall be able to beat the Government to-day, but I hope the time is coming—perhaps it will come next Session—when we shall have a day a week from the com- mencement of the Session for the discussion of the Estimates. The Government have occupied all the time of the Session; first of all, in giving money to their friends in the Church out of the tithes, then in giving their friends the landlords of Ireland, as much of the public money as they could; and then in protecting the Church schools. When the greater part of the Session has been occupied in this way, we are asked to pass all the Estimates in the course of a few days. The greatest grievance of all is that they will not even give us tea and coffee at the bar outside.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Long-ford (Mr. T. Healy) that the concession made by the right hon. Gentleman is reasonable, namely, that no Irish Vote shall be pressed to an issue after 12 o'clock against our will. [ Cries of "No!"] That is the concession as I understand it.

* : I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary as to the precise time at which Classes I. and II. of the Irish Votes shall be taken. With regard to the remark of the hon. Member for West Belfast, what I said was that no important Irish business should be taken after 12 o'clock against the protest of the Irish Members. There would be no wish to force any Vote through against the wish of any considerable body of the House. I include the Irish Members in that. I trust they will facilitate matters also, and will not stop the Irish Votes at 12 o'clock if they are going through.

I am glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say he will consult the Chief Secretary for Ireland. It has been the habit in former Sessions to make arrangements for the discussion of the Irish Votes which would conduce to the convenience of hon. Members from Ireland, who are placed at considerable disadvantage by the fact that they are so far from their homes. I hope special arrangements will be made on this occasion to meet the difficulties in which they are placed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman adopt the same course in regard to Scotland, and take the Vote for the equivalent grant before the ordinary Estimates?

* : What we propose to do with regard to the Scottish Grant is to take it at the conclusion of Class IV., after the Free Education Vote has been passed.

I think the Vote would come far more fitly after Vote 31 than in Class IV.

I think the explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very satisfactory, and I should feel inclined not to vote against the Resolution, but for the fact that the whole of the private Members' time on Tuesdays and Fridays has been taken away by the Government, and that, now we are bringing forward our grievances in Committee of Supply, we are to have the Twelve o'clock Rule suspended. I wish to ask why the services of the Deputy Chairman should not be used every evening at dinner time. We lose two hours and a half a week by not employing him. I think also it would be better to meet earlier, say at 1 or 2 o'clock, than to sit later than we do at present. [ Cries of "Oh!"] Of course, Members who give merely the fag-end of their day to Parliamentary work will object to such a proposal, but I protest against the business of the country being arranged merely to suit the convenience of professional men who devote merely their odd hours to their duties as legislators.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer says the House is fairly unanimous with regard to the Infants Bill, and he has expressed his own approval of it. This Bill is one of great importance, and I do not think any measure which extends the criminal law should pass this House without adequate discussion. I would suggest that, as the Bill is regarded as so important by the Government, they should give their own time for its discussion, and should report Progress some night, say at 10 o'clock, so as to allow of its discussion.

I hope my hon. Friend will not put the House to the trouble of a Division. At the same time I must point out that private Members have been placed at a very great disadvantage year after year and Session after Session, and that they have been worse treated this Session than in previous Sessions. Under these circumstances, if the Amendment is pressed I shall vote for it.

I wish to support what was said by the hon. Member for Dundee. If the Government are anxious to pass a Betting Bill they should use their own counters.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put.

(5.15.) The House divided:—Ayes 175; Noes 89.—(Div. List, No. 351.)

Ordered, That for the remainder of the Session the proceedings of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed.

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

On Motion of Mr. Jackson, Bill to continue various Expiring Laws, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Jackson and Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 416.]

Public Works Loan Bill

On Motion of Mr. Jackson, Bill to grant money for the purpose of certain Local Loans, and for other purposes relating to Local Loans, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Jackson and Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 417.]

Orders of the Day

Supply—Civil Service Estimates, 1891–2

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Class II

1. £8,044, to complete the sum for the Lunacy Commission, England.

Last night, just before 12 o'clock, this Vote was very nearly being taken, and I thought that if hon. Members had read the Reports of the Commissioners, which are full of the most distressing facts, they would not have been willing to agree to this Vote without making a strong effort to do something more for the benefit of the poor people dealt with by the Commission. One point to which I wish particularly to draw attention is the large number of suicides that take place in the asylums, and I think the fact furnishes ground for believing that sufficient supervision is not exercised over the patients. A great number of these suicides have been allowed to take place in consequence of neglect. Another feature of the Reports is the extraordinary number of these unfortunate people who appear to get their ribs broken without any definite cause being distinctly proved to have brought about the result. The number of cases this year is about the same as last year. In every case, when it comes to be investigated, we find that there are chances of these poor afflicted people being treated with brutality by the attendants or warders. That in itself ought to cause us to demand some explanation. Take the case of "T.C.," a man aged 34 who was in the Cumberland and Westmoreland Asylum. That unfortunate man was subject only to slight seizures. He slept in the observation dormitory. One night he attempted to rise from his bed; an attendant rushed over and he fell back on the bed. The attendant held him for five minutes. It is said that no blow was struck, and that the patient did not make any complaint of ill-usage. Two hours later, however, he complained of pain, and he died soon afterwards. It was subsequently found that there was a rent more than two inches long in the intestines. Speaking as a medical man, I say that could not have been brought about without some severe injury being inflicted on this unfortunate man. There is evidently brutality at work in the wards of some of your asylums—brutality that ought not to be overlooked—and we ought to try by every means in our power to safeguard the well-being of these unfortunate persons. The next case occurred in the Kent County Asylum. The patient was 60 years of age. He had no injury of any kind on his admission to the asylum on the 14th of August. He died on the 20th of June. On the 21st a certificate of death was given to the effect that he had died from general paralysis, accelerated by fracture of the ribs and sternum. The jury found death was due to natural causes; but the injuries found on a post-mortem examination were the fracture of 12 ribs and the breaking in of the breast bone. In another case a man in the Rainhill (Lancashire) Asylum had nine ribs fractured. At Colney Hatch a man 79 years old had two ribs broken. There are a large number of these cases year after year. Then there are a number of patients who die from suffocation. In nearly all these cases they are supposed to be of suicidal tendencies, but still the deaths constantly occur, mostly amongst the epileptic patients. Most of the wards in the asylum in which epileptic cases are treated are too large as a rule. You find a number of cases this year in which these unfortunate people have been smothered in their sleep and the attendants in three or four cases have stated on oath they had seen their patients 10 or 12 minutes previously, and when they came the next time the poor creatures were dead. Well, that ought not to be, and I think the sooner some strong steps are taken in this matter the better. Then in all these Reports you find complaints made by the Commissioners of limited space. You find allegations made that there is an increase of lunacy, and, that being so, existing lunatic asylums have not sufficient accommodation, overcrowding follows, and disastrous results. Going through this book it is very evident there is a want of accommodation. Then, again, it is evident that the licensed houses where patients are allowed to be kept are not so much on the wane as they were when the first Act was introduced some three or four years ago, and that is a disadvantage. There can be no doubt, and I defy any medical man who goes into the matter and sees these places to deny it, that there is nothing to be said in favour of the private asylums as against the public asylums open to public inspection and looked after by public Trustees. I hope to see the day when there will be no such thing as a private lunatic asylum. I regret, however, to find that the number of private asylums is not decreasing. We find in the Report of the Commissioners that they only pay one visit in 12 months to some of these asylums. That is a lamentable state of affairs, and under it you certainly will have a laxity in the conduct of these asylums. Then I notice that in the average cost the county asylums show a lower rate than the borough asylums, the county asylums average 8s. 7⅜., and the borough asylums 10s. 1⅛d. per head. This is somewhat strange, for it seems to me that with an asylum in a borough the cost of all supplies should be less than in the country. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can throw a little light on the point. I know that Irish asylums do not come into this Vote, but I mention by way of illustration we have a large asylum outside Cork—

This part of the subject is not under the control of the Lunacy Commissioners.

It is reported upon here in this Book, which is supposed to throw light upon the Vote with which we are dealing; but, of course, Sir, if you say it is not in order I will discontinue my argument, hoping that we shall have some explanation as to this difference in cost in counties and boroughs. Then I find the Commissioners express themselves against the practice in workhouses of appointing pauper attendants to inmates of unsound mind. There is much on this point calling for remark. In these workhouse asylums you find several instances of these poor people being struck by pauper assistants with fatal result. The Commissioners report very strongly against the employment of such assistants, and I hope we shall hear the last of the practice. It is better to have persons mentally afflicted under the care of persons who will treat the patient according to proper medical methods, and apply the proper remedies for different phases of the disease. On the evils of overcrowding, the Commissioners make many remarks, and they give numerous instances of asylums in many counties and boroughs where the accommodation is insufficient to meet the increasing requirements. There must be something radically wrong in your system when, year after year, the same complaints are made. We are sadly neglecting our duty in allowing these most afflicted of God's creatures to be treated in the way they often are. Much has been done, I know, in the past, but much remains to be done, as this Report shows clearly, by way of increased accommodation and supervision. Even with that magnificent institution at Earlswood the Commissioners find grave fault in this respect, and if in this noble institution, upon which money is fully lavished—I hope with good results—there are shortcomings, how necessary it must be that stricter supervision should be exercised over other institutions for these our unfortunate fellow creatures throughout the country.

* (5.53.) : I do not take the pessimistic view the hon. Member does as to the position of lunatics in our asylums. Considering the difficulties under which it is necessary to do the work, and the amount of skilled assistance, I think the work is done extremely well. Charges, I think, are often made without foundation. No doubt such is human nature that you do find instances where a tantalised person in a moment of irritation vents his evil feelings on one of these unfortunate lunatics under his charge, but it is a question whether many of the deaths resulting from fractured ribs and other injuries are not inevitable. Mental disease, like any other disease, should be treated scientifically. It is necessary sometimes to apply mechanical restraint to check violence, and I am afraid it must unfortunately happen that the muscular struggles bring about accidents. The hon. Member, however, has done good service in calling attention to this Report, and pointing out the evils that undoubtedly exist under the present system of administration, fully recognised by the authorities, who press them year after year upon the custodians of the Public Purse. It is to be noted that in London the lack of accommodation is worse than elsewhere. There are nearly 3,500 pauper lunatics boarded out of London—sent away to distant parts of the country—and it is a hard thing to send them away from their friends and the civilising influences of home life which are brought to bear by the occasional visits of members of their family. But my object in rising was to draw attention to certain difficulties in the working of the Lunacy Act. It suggests sarcastic commentary on the work of the framers of the Act that even now, when the Act has been in operation only a year, it is found necessary to introduce an amending Bill. I am bound to say that if the Government had not treated with what I must call contemptuous indifference the recommendations of experts, I think probably the evils would not have arisen. I followed the proceedings of the Committee upstairs and attended all the discussions in this House, and I must say that a good many of the evils that have arisen and brought matters to a dead-lock were predicted by those prophets who prophesied because they did happen to know. If the advice of experts had been taken, the difficulties which I do not think it is too strong an expression to use have brought things to a dead-lock in lunacy matters would not have arisen. We know that the Lunacy Act was passed because doctors were afraid to certify because of actions that might be brought against them, and the Bill was introduced in order that medical men might discharge their functions under the sanction of the Judicial Bench. It should be well known that in cases of lunacy it is important to act promptly. The idea is not yet credited that lunacy is some occult disease or evil spirit that enters into a man, as we are assured on good authority it is entered into the lower animals, that it arises not from natural, but supernatural causes. But those who have more knowledge of slid matters must treat each case of acute insanity—

The hon. Member appears to have missed the object of the Vote, the expenses of the Lunacy Commission.

* : I am sorry to have travelled beyond proper limits. May I be allowed to direct my observations to the amending Bill to be introduced?

* : I will simply ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is intended to provide that all Justices are to have jurisdiction under the Lunacy Act? It is a difficulty in the way when exceptions are made, and it is necessary to act promptly; therefore, all Justices should act in lunacy matters. I think all the Justices of a particular county should act in these matters. I think, also, it would be well that no action on this subject should be brought against a medical man until the costs have been deposited in Court. I have in my mind one very hard case in which a well-known medical man was charged with certifying wrongly. The pro- ceedings were undertaken by one of the class of pettifogging attorneys who take up these cases for the sake of what they can get out of them, and the Judge over-ruled what is, I think, the clear intention of the Lunacy Law, namely, that no case of the kind shall be brought until the costs have been deposited.

I wish to say that I made a mistake a short time ago. The institution I referred to was not a private asylum, but a hospital registered under the Lunacy Act. I think the question of alternative exits in case of fire should receive immediate attention, and also the question of the separate treatment of infectious diseases.

The Committee ought to bear in mind that places for the reception of the insane are in the main places maintained by Local Authorities, or places conducted by private enterprise under strict supervision, and I submit that the whole tenour of the Report of the Commission shows there is increasing vigilance respecting the method of conducting these establishments, which is leading to continually improved results. The hon. Member for Cork (Dr. Tanner) has very properly drawn attention to the fact that in the past year there has been an increasing number of suicides, but the fact that there have been only 18 suicides out of 86,000 lunatic paupers cannot be dwelt upon as a matter which shows so grave a proportion as to indicate great defect in the administration connected with these cases. The hon. Member referred to the Barming Heath case, where the finding of the Coroner's Jury was unsatisfactory. I think that the review of that finding by the Commissioners is one of the very best justifications that could be given for the existence of the Commission, and for the retention of legal members upon it. As to the use of pauper inmates as attendants in workhouses, the Lunacy Act of 1879 has tended very much to diminish the number of insane persons who are found in workhouses, and, therefore, to decrease the evil of which he speaks. It is impossible here and now that we can go into minute discussions of particular cases, nor could that be done at any time without notice, but I submit that the very existence of this Report, drawing minute attention to these points, and inviting the public to take an intelligent interest in the direction and control of the insane, entitles the Committee to conclude that the Commissioners have done their work during the past year so as to deserve the confidence of the House, while it shows that an approach to a more satisfactory and more perfect treatment of the insane is constantly being made.

* (6.7.) : I should like to ask whether it is the duty of the Commission to see that the nurses and attendants do not work too long hours, and that sufficient holidays are provided in order to enable them to perform their duty to the poor patients in a satisfactory manner. I have had complaints sent to me to the effect that in some asylums attendants are not treated as they ought to be, considering the extraordinary nature of their duties. I do not wish to detain the Committee over this Vote, and I would not have troubled the hon. Gentleman but for the complaints that have been sent to me.

* : I wish on this Vote to ask the same question as I have asked on other Votes, namely, what are the office hours of the clerks in this Office?

Six hours for the Upper, Sir, and seven hours for the Lower.

I take exception altogether to the reply of the hon. Member the Under Secretary for the Home Department. Anyone would imagine from what he said that I was exceeding my duty in calling attention to what absolutely appears in the pages of the Report. Are we to understand that, in the opinion of the Government, because matters are reported in these pages we are not to call attention to them?

I said the hon. Member had most properly drawn attention to the cases that were reported. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Morton), no doubt the Commissioners have a general power to do what is necessary in order to keep up the standard of efficiency, and this power will include the duty of seeing that the officials are not worked to excess.

* : May I ask whether the Commissioners do make inquiries with regard to the hours of work of attendants?

I accept the assurance of the hon. Member. I hope the few remarks I have made will have the effect of producing some remedy with regard to the number of visits paid to the asylums by the Commissioners. I ask the hon. Member whether one visit in 12 months to such an asylum as Earlswood is, in his opinion, sufficient?

Vote agreed to.

2. £25,000, to complete the sum for the Mercantile Marine Fund (Grant in Aid).

* (6.15.) : In March last I asked a question of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with regard to the erection of a lighthouse on Rattray Head on the northeastern point of Scotland, as urged by the Northern Lights Commissioners. The right hon. Gentleman told me the Board had sanctioned the scheme. On the 13th of April he told me that the Board of Trade had asked for detailed plans, and if they were satisfactory the work would probably be commenced during the present financial year. I wish now to ask whether the work will be commenced this year? The Northern Lights Commissioners say they receive perfectly fair treatment when they can get at the Board of Trade, but they say the interests of the north coasts are not properly looked after because they have to go first to the Trinity House for grants of money, and can only go to the Board of Trade on appeal. In view of the crowded state of the English Channel, many ship-masters would take the northern instead of the southern route from the west to the east coast of England if it was better lighted. This is, therefore, not so much a Scottish matter as one affecting the welfare of the seafaring community all round the coast. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give his attention to the subject.

* (6.20.) : We have received from the Commissioners of Northern Lights the details of a plan for the Rattray Head light involving a cost of £15,200. The work is to be commenced soon, and £2,000 has been set aside for it during the present year. The erection of two other costly lighthouses in the same district is also to be undertaken. I do not admit the accuracy of the hon. Member's contention as to the unfairness of the allocation of the Mercantile Marine Fund. The amount of shipping in the northern seas is comparatively small compared with that in the English and Irish Channels, and in allocating the funds it is necessary to remember that the shipping pays for the lighting. The Board of Trade has every desire to establish lights wherever they are required for the purpose of navigation. In this spirit I have sanctioned these three new works in the last few years. I think that is a fair answer to the hon. Member's suggestion that the interests of the northern coasts are not fairly considered.

* : I did not impute unfairness to the right hon. Gentleman or the Board of Trade. I said the Northern Lights Commissioners thought they were perfectly fairly treated by the Board of Trade. Of course, the shipping going round the northern coast is comparatively small now, and it is to relieve the crowded and dangerous state of the English Channel that I am advocating the better lighting of the northern coast.

* (6.25.) : I entirely agree with that view, and it is precisely with that object that I have sanctioned this expenditure.

May I ask how it is that we have not more lighthouses on the Irish coast? I think that some of the more important lighthouses in Ireland should have the electric light. I understand that a flashing electric light can be seen at a much greater distance than any of the oil or gas lights that are in use. The use of such a light would be of manifest importance to the shipping off the south-west coast of Ireland.

* : Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us to what extent and with what success the electric light has been used on the British coast?

* : The number of electric lights in use in lighthouses is not large; but that at St. Catherine's Point, on the south side of the Isle of Wight, is, I think, one of the best in the world. As to the electric light in Ireland, there has been a feeling on the part of the Irish Light Commissioners that gas is rather preferable to the electric light. Of the two places to which the hon. Member for Cork specially alluded, there is a very powerful and good gas light at Galley Head, and it would be practically impossible to establish the electric light at the Fastnets. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the whole subject has been well considered.

Vote agreed to.

3. £48,686, to complete the sum for the Mint, including Coinage.

I rise for the purpose of expressing the hope that there will be no decrease in the use of half sovereigns. "Threatened men live long"; but I hope that half sovereigns are not even threatened. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that it is a more wasteful coin—by wear and tear—than the sovereign. The half sovereign is a domestic coin, and a very useful one. It is used very little on foreign exchanges, and what I would suggest is that if the half sovereign is wasteful the difficulty might be met by debasing it—making it a token—for domestic use. Possibly that might be a gain to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As regards the superscription upon the sovereign, we have been told that a committee is engaged in considering the question. With regard to the silver coinage, I hope there is no diminution in the use of the shilling. I should not like that, though I know tradesmen are very apt to count out change in the big silver, which discourages the use of the shilling. Then I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell us something of what is going to be done about the variety of the coinage. There can be no more perplexing coin than the 4s. piece, and I think it very desirable indeed that you should abolish it and the florin or half-crown, though I confess to a conservative feeling in respect of the half-crown, which is a piece to which I am partial. There is confusion among different classes as to the silver coinage, and some simple people can be taken in.

I understand from a recent answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the artistic question in connection with the coinage has been referred to a Committee from which, no doubt, it will receive full consideration. But I regret to find that a more important question has been referred to that Committee, namely, the necessity of having stamped on each coin its value, either in words or figures. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is scarcely aware of the very strong feeling which exists among the public in favour of each coin showing its value. I have not met a single person, with the exception of two Members of this House, who are not of that opinion. Last year I was pressed by others to obtain signatures to a Memorial, and in three days I obtained 150 signatures to that Memorial, which was to this effect—

"We, the undersigned Members of Parliament, desire to convey to you" (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) "our opinion that in all future Mint issues the coinage, whether gold or silver or copper, should have the value of each coin expressed."

Not only foreigners and Americans, but the people of the colonies have a difficulty in understanding our coinage; hence the necessity for them, as for our own people, to have the value impressed upon each coin. There is another matter to which I wish to shortly refer. The total amount of our gold coinage is variously estimated by statisticians at from £100,000,000 to £120,000,000. That estimate, by a late estimate of Mr. Giffen's preparation, is reduced to something like £75,000,000. Now, that is a very much smaller amount than has been generally supposed to be current throughout the country, and I should like to know whether that includes the amount in the hands of the Bank of England and of other bankers, or only that which, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, is popularly supposed to be in the pockets of the people? If the amount of gold is so small it is imperative that steps should be taken to increase the gold reserves of the country.

* : I shall not continue the matter further, and I hope I may be able to get a simple answer to the questions I have raised.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer obstinately refuses to put the value not only on silver coinage, but all kinds of coinage. Exactly the same question has arisen in America, but there the Government do not entrust to the discretion of a Committee whether the value shall be stated. I think it is difficult to understand why the Chancellor of the Exchequer refuses to state the value on all coins.

Then I hope he will allow the value to be stated. With regard to our colonies, they have the word "sovereign" expressed on that coin. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to be prepared to take lessons from the colonies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, himself shortsighted, should consider shortsighted people in this matter. There were frauds in connection with the Jubilee sixpences, which had not their value expressed, by gilding them over and passing them as half-sovereigns. If the words half sovereign" had been expressed such a fraud could never have been committed. At night, if the sovereign is worn, it is difficult to distinguish it from a half-sovereign. I certainly hope there will be no further issues of the 4s. piece; and I would point out that in a great number of the country districts there is a great scarcity of change. It is difficult to get change for a sovereign at the present time.

* (6.48.) : The hon. Gentleman must be under a delusion. I do not understand that the right hon. Gentleman is obstinately refusing to put the value on coins, and that all he has done is to relegate to a Committee the consideration of designs. I distinctly understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer also to say that he would withdraw the 4s. piece. But now these questions have been raised, I think it is very desirable that we should have a definite answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because hon. Members who take an interest in this question quite understood that he was quite willing to have the value expressed.

The bronze coins have not yet been mentioned, and I want to know whether the Committee has power to consider that coinage. The bronze coinage, though half the weight of the copper coinage of former days, is still far too heavy, and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the propriety of considering whether nickel coins, which have proved so satisfactory in Germany, could be substituted for bronze?

* : I have been requested by my hon. Friend to ask what are the hours of the different classes of workmen in the Mint, and also what are the working hours of the clerks, or rather the hours during which they attend. Then I should like to know why the amount of the wages for piece and time work has been increased by £6,500, and why sub head B has been increased by £4,000. As to the question of our coinage, it would be well if we had the good sense to do what many of our colonies have done, that is, to adopt the decimal system. With regard to the supply of silver coinage to the colonies. I see there is an increase of from £2,000 to £3,000 on that account. I should like to ask why the Imperial Funds should be at an apparent loss for conveying silver coinage to our colonies?

* : The increases to which the hon. Member refers are due to the extra amount of work done at the Mint, involving an increase of wages. There is also an increase of charges through the Government having undertaken the transmission of silver from London to the provinces. It was found that the bankers were not much inclined to pay the cost of such carriage, and the consequence was that silver was not supplied in sufficient amount to the provinces. The Government undertook to pay the charge, which was about a quarter per cent., and the result has been an increase of the profit from silver of £600,000. I think the hon. Member will admit that that is a very good profit for the small expense incurred. I cannot give any pledge with regard to the half-sovereign beyond saying this, that I do not propose to effect such an economy in its use as would be an inconvenience to the public. But often hon. Members will have experienced that in getting change they get more half-sovereigns than sovereigns. As to debasing the half-sovereign, though it is a step which might be taken, I do not think it is one which I should be prepared to take myself. I certainly have no intention whatever of diminishing the use of the shilling. The more shillings there are in circulation the more convenient it is to the public. The hon. Member complained that there is not enough silver in the provinces. Over and over again I have explained that the Government have no means or no power, except in the payment of their own employés, to stimulate the circulation of any particular coin. The only reason why shillings are not more fully in circulation is that people do not ask for the coin in change, while tradesmen find it easier to give change in florins or half-crowns. As to expressing the value of each coin on its face, the hon. Member opposite said he had obtained the signatures of 150 Members to a Memorial. It, is extremely easy to obtain signatures, especially under the fascination of my hon. Friend. But I myself have not received letters from more than three or four Members since I held office urging me to adopt the view of expressing the value upon each coin. Seeing the interest which is taken, however, in the subject by hon. Members, I shall give every consideration to the representations which have been made in this House before coming to a decision. I confess I should have thought a poor man would be able to distinguish between a florin and half-crown with the greatest readiness, and as to the half-sovereign and sovereign, I can tell my hon. Friend that, though shortsighted, I could distinguish between them by touch in the dead of the night. I believe a particular class of our fellow-subjects pocket the sovereign or half-sovereign without looking at it, knowing, even as it passes through their hands, what has been the generosity of the man who gives the coin. I notice the importance which the House attaches to this question, and I shall give full consideration to their representations, though I give no absolute pledge that the course which they propose will be, pursued. With regard to the Committee, artists are engaged in preparing designs for their consideration, and it will rest with them to consider what will be the convenient denomination of the coins. I am not prepared to say that I would substitute nickel for bronze coinage. There is nothing about which the people of England are more Conservative than their coins, and I certainly should not, without the very gravest consideration, be prepared to substitute nickel for our present bronze coinage.

* (6.54.) : Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say when the Committee are likely to report?

The right hon. Gentleman confirms what I have said as to the difficulty of getting change. Will the 4s. piece be withdrawn?

* : The half-crown was discontinued at one time; but there was general desire for its re-introduction. Both the florin and the half-crown are extremely useful on occasions.

What I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is this: The present 3d. piece is so small as to be inconvenient, and could not the right hon. Gentleman substitute a nickel coin which would be useful in giving change for 6d., when perhaps only a penny is to be taken for a newspaper, and when to receive 5d. in copper in change is exceedingly burdensome to the purchaser. I think a nickel coin to take the place of the 3d. piece would be exceedingly useful?

In reply to the hon. Member for Peterborough I may say that the hours of the clerical staff are seven daily.

Vote agreed to.

4. £9,031, to complete the sum for the National Debt Office.

5. £6,749, to complete the sum for the Public Works Loan Commission.

6. £14,532, to complete the sum for the Record Office.

7. Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £14,530, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1892, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Registrar General of Births, &c., in England."

Some years ago I asked the Government to bring in a Bill repealing 6 and 7 Will. IV., chap. 6, under which £21,207 is paid for Registrars, because it is inequitable to compel the Scotch people, who pay their own expenses in this respect, to also contribute towards the expenses of England. This is the third of the three grievances which I have announced my intention of taking a Division upon. It is of no use for private Members to introduce a measure for the repeal of this Bill, because so little of the time of Parliament is placed at their disposal. Therefore the only way to get it done is through the Government, and, in order to induce them to take up this question, I shall move the reduction of the Vote by £10,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,530, be granted for the said Service."—( Dr. Clark. )

I trust the hon. Member will not press his Motion to a Division. He has made his protest. He knows that nothing can be done now to pass such a Bill, and therefore I hope he will save the time of the Committee.

In previous years I have taken 20 or 30 Divisions, but this year I promised to take but three. That would not have been necessary had the Government given me one night for the discussing of the whole of these questions. Through the Ballot I secured two nights, but the Government took them both. I might repay them by taking 30 Divisions, but I want the Session to end as quickly as possible, and therefore shall content myself with three Divisions. I deem it necessary to place this protest on record.

(7.7.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 74; Noes 118.—(Div. List, No. 352.)

Original Question again proposed.

On this Vote I wish to raise a question as to the Census in Wales. There was a special provision in the Census Act that the papers should contain a column with a view to ascertaining the number of the Welsh-speaking population. Now, not only has the spirit of the Act been evaded, but so also has the letter. We put a series of questions to the President of the Local Government Board three months ago on this subject, and we called attention to the omission of the language column. The Secretary to the Local Government Board promised that steps should be taken to remedy the defect. I have not discovered, however, that anything has been done. In addition to the omission of the language column, I find that in many Welsh-speaking districts, such as Denbigh, Anglesey and Merionethshire, the great majority of the papers distributed were in English; and hence the only way in which the people could discover what was wanted of them was by seeking the aid of some neighbour who understood English. The papers were probably filled in by some one else. In one case I found that out of 750 papers distributed in a Welsh-speaking district, in which probably the the number of resident English people did not exceed 30, only 50 or 60 were printed in Welsh, and in another case, out of 1,000 papers distributed, only 200 papers were printed in Welsh. It is monstrous that in districts known to be Welsh-speaking the papers should have been in the English language, and without any sort of direction to the people in Welsh. I shall move a reduction of the Vote. This is not merely a sentimental matter; it is one of great practical importance. The representatives of Wales in this House have constantly urged successive Governments to appoint Welsh officials in County Courts and other public offices in the Principality. Where the great majority of the people speak Welsh, and Welsh only, it is only proper that the public officials should understand the language. We wished the census to be taken in such a manner as would elicit the facts on this matter, we wanted to find out how many of the people were Welsh speaking, but the returns will not help us. My hon. Friend the Member for Denbighshire recently brought before the House the question of appointing a Welsh-speaking Inspector for the collieries in Wales, and the Home Secretary on that occasion admitted that it was practically impossible for an Englishman who did not understand Welsh to elicit from the workmen full information as to the facts of an explosion or a breach of the Mines Act. As the Census Returns have not been taken in such a way as to enable us to get the information we desired, I beg to move the reduction of the Vote by £5,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £39,530, be granted for the said Service."—( Mr. Lloyd-George. )

We have to complain that the officials of this Department, the enumerators in various districts, have not carried out the concessions which the President of the Local Government Board so courteously promised us last year. As soon as we explained our wishes on the matter, the right hon. Gentleman placed Wales on the same footing as the highlands and islands of Scotland, and arranged that a column should be provided in the Census Papers for those persons who speak Welsh, while papers printed in Welsh were to be distributed for Welsh-speaking people. It is of little use for the Welsh Members to secure concessions from the Government if they are to be set aside in this way by the officials. Owing to these omissions the Returns are unreliable. For instance, I consider that in my own county of Merionethshire the omission of the language column was most injurious as regards the reliability of the Census. I have received a great many representations from my constituents on this subject. The cases quoted by my hon. Friend are not isolated cases. There were numerous and flagrant cases as we know throughout North Wales, and I have no doubt many occurred in the sourthern part of the Principality. It seems to me that the whole purpose of Parliament and the whole value of the concessions of the Government have been defeated by the neglect of the officials to do their duty, and consequently the Census will be unreliable and inaccurate. The Government promised to take steps to rectify the omission, and I hope we shall to-night be told what has been done in this direction, and with what result.

* (7.30.) : I regret that I did not receive some notice that this question would be raised, because in that case I might have been able to obtain detailed information. The complaint is twofold. The hon. Member for Carnarvon places the greatest stress upon the fact that there was not a sufficient number of papers printed in the Welsh language, and the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken lays the greatest stress on the other point, namely, that there were papers distributed in Wales with only one language column. I think that the mistake is much more important in the one case than in the other.

* : I acknowledge the importance of both, but I agree with the hon. Member for Merioneth in attaching greater importance to the mistake in regard to the language columns. In regard to that the instances given by the hon. Member for Carnarvon were very limited. The hon. Gentleman mentioned two or three parishes in which there had not been a sufficient number of papers with two columns distributed. When each of those cases was brought to my notice I communicated with the Registrar General, and he undertook that the error should be at once rectified. I have received no further complaint and therefore I presume the error has been rectified. I am sure there was every desire on the part of the officials to carry out the undertaking I gave last year. If there has been a mistake made it has been from no desire to frustrate the wishes of hon. Gentlemen, and I am sure that in the multiplicity of details it is quite intelligible there may have been an error committed in one or two cases. No doubt, in some places there was a want of supply of papers printed in the Welsh language, but how did that arise? The demand in some places was greater than could reasonably have been expected. Hon. Members from Wales knew that an effort was made to get the Welsh people to use the Welsh form. I make no complaint, but I think a good many Welsh papers were used when English papers would have done just as well so far as a knowledge of language was concerned. So long as the real object was attained, and it is not contested that it has been, I do not think it matters whether the Return was made on Welsh or English papers. I admit that the supply of Welsh papers ought to have been as great as the demand. The experience of the taking of this Census will undoubtedly lead to fewer mistakes on future occasions. My own firm belief is that no real injustice has been done, and that any real mistakes that were made were rectified.

* (7.38.) : There is no desire to make any complaint of the right hon. Gentleman personally, but I am bound to say I have received a good many complaints from Denbighshire that no Welsh papers were distributed. The consequence was that many people really did not know what they were doing. A Census taken under such circumstances is a perfect mockery, and is not worth the paper on which it is taken. Under the circumstances, the Census Returns will lead people to believe that there are far fewer Welsh-speaking people than there really are. The right hon. Gentleman says that in future care will be taken to avoid such mistakes, but considering that ten years will elapse before the next Census is taken, that is rather cold comfort for us.

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for not giving him formal notice. I certainly thought notice was given at the time questions were asked across the floor that the question would be raised in Supply. The reason why I laid more stress upon the absence of Welsh papers than upon the omission of the double column was that according to my information there were very few cases where the language column was omitted altogether. But there was hardly a parish in Wales where the supply of papers in Welsh was not sadly less than it ought to have been. I only mentioned two or three parishes, because I did not wish to weary the Committee with reading a long list of names. I have here a list of 20 or 30 parishes in which the supply of Welsh papers was insufficient. There is one little mountain village in which there are 50 houses. I believe there are there between 30 and 40 householders who cannot speak a word of English, and yet only two or three Census papers in Welsh were distributed there. I think it is highly probable that the real object of the Census has not been attained. I therefore must press my Motion to a Division as a protest against the way in which the Census was taken in Wales.

* (7.42.) : I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend intends to go to a Division. The old English practice of insulting small nationalities has been pursued in this case. Much material harm may not have been done, but such proceedings as these create bad feeling between the different nationalities. The Prime Minister insulted the Irish people by calling them Hottentots, and insulted our Indian fellow-subjects by describing one of them as a black man. The Scotch have not fared so badly. I suppose that Bannockburn is not quite forgotten. The Welsh people have not been fairly dealt with, and I protest, as the Representative of an English constituency, against any insult being offered to the smaller nationalities either in regard to Census papers, or religion, or anything else.

* : I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can inform us when the Census Returns for England and Wales will be published? Some partial information relating to special localities has already been divulged, and the result is that an erroneous impression prevails outside the House that the whole Returns are published. This has caused a certain amount of inconvenience.

The last sheets of the Abstract have gone to press, and I think copies will be distributed to the House this week.

(7.44.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 46; Noes 87.—(Div. List, No. 353.)

Original Question again proposed.

* (7.55.) : In the Vote now before the House a considerable sum is included for the expenses of Superintendent Registrars, and among other things for collecting certified copies of marriages from the clergy. The careless, unskilful, and untrustworthy manner in which marriages in the Established Church have been registered was matter of notoriety. I would like to know what amendment has been effected, and how far such amendment has been accomplished, by the intervention and supervision of the Registrar General and his staff of officers throughout the country. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the manner in which the registration of marriages is now conducted? I know that the attention of the office has been given to the subject with the object of securing some improvement in the system, and I believe there are fewer cases of complaint than there were a short while ago.

* : The hon. Gentleman has answered his own question. The duty of the Registrar is now performed in a manner more satisfactory to those concerned, and there are fewer complaints. I shall be happy to give the hon. Gentleman any information I can in answer to a question if he will give notice, but, as I daresay he is aware, the details of these matters do not come under my immediate supervision. I shall be glad to give him any information he desires.

* : I should have liked to have known how far pressure has been applied by the Local Government Board, and with what result? I will avail myself of the right hon. Gentleman's offer, and will endeavour to bring out the facts in another way.

* : Before we pass this Vote, may I ask how many hours are worked by the clerks in the Registrar's office?

* : Allow me to call attention to an entry here, or rather the absence of an entry. Last year there appeared an entry of £20 allowance to purveyor of luncheons, but nothing appears this year. This shows, I think, that such items can be taken out of the Accounts, although yesterday the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think it was impossible to do without them.

I did not say impossible; I said for convenience they were inserted.

Question put, and agreed to.

8. Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £369,005, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1892, for Stationery, Printing, and Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for Public Departments, and for the two Houses of Parliament, and for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office, and the cost of Stationery Office Publications, and of the Gazettes; and for Sundry Miscellaneous Services, including the purchase of Parliamentary Debates."

Upon this Vote may I call the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury to a complaint of provincial printers that they are shut out from any share in the Government printing contracts, in consequence of a clause in all the Schedules of specifications which have come to my notice requiring that the work shall be executed in London. I can understand that there are certain classes of work must be done in London, but there is also a great deal which might be economically and equally well done in the country, for instance, telegraph forms and other forms. It is only fair, I think, that country printers should have a chance of tendering for Government work, which they could do equally well with London firms. I do not move a reduction, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will concede this point.

There is not the slightest objection to meeting the hon. Member to the fullest extent. The Stationery Office would be only too glad to obtain additional competition in tenders. The hon. Member is mistaken in supposing that none of the Government work is done in the country. The clause to which the hon. Member refers, if I remember aright, merely requires that the printer shall have an office in London. That, of course, is a matter of convenience, because frequent communication has to be made between a Government Department and the contractor. As a matter of fact, a large portion of the work has been actually done in the country. I shall be most happy to earry out the hon. Member's wish.

I propose to move a reduction of £200 in the salary of the Controller, in order to call attention to a matter which I referred to a short time ago by question, and which I wish to seriously press. I find in the Telegraph Office in this House, and in several, if not all, telegraph offices a bad, a stupid, and exasperating kind of German pencil is being used. Since I raised the question I have found there is very general complaint of this, and I have been inundated with letters on the subject. When I put my question, the right hon. Gentleman answered me with an unnecessary curtness, not at all characteristic of him. I am not a neophyte in these matters, and I have always found that when the Government have a bad case to meet in Committee of Supply they confine themselves to a bald and curt reply to a question. But I want to know why this boycotting of an English industry? Surely the Government know that for a long time the lead pencil manufacturers in t his country have been in far from a flourishing condition. How is it that they are not given fair play? I have letters from persons in the trade who formerly supplied Government Departments, and it appears from what they write that they have been deliberately boycotted in favour of German goods. I consider it my duty here to say a word in favour of promoting native industries. Our Home Rule principles in Ireland induce us to do this as far as we can with Irish manufactures, and undoubtedly when the Government find that a particular English industry is depressed they should do what they can to encourage it in its difficulty. I should like to know the terms of the contract upon which these German pencils are supplied from Bavaria. I have letters from English firms which formerly supplied the Government with pencils, and I am informed that on the last, occasion when tendering their samples were returned to them unopened. Now I think that indicates that fair play is not given to the English competitor. I should prefer that an English Member should take up a matter of this kind as being more concerned with the working classes in their constituencies. Things of this kind show that the interest of the Government in the welfare of the working classes is not altogether sincere. Unless I get a more satisfactory answer than I have had I shall certainly carry my Motion to a Division.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A, Salaries, be reduced by £200 part of the Salary of the Controller."—( Dr. Tanner. )

* (8.6.) : I desire to support this reduction. I listened to the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman the other day with astonishment and indignation. I gathered from that answer that the Government found it impossible to get these pencils in Great Britain.

* : I gathered as much from the answer given, though, perhaps, the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to say as much. Now, if we cannot in this country produce lead pencils good enough for a Government Department then we had better shut up business altogether. It seems to me the Government have gone out of their way in this small matter to promote the foreign against the English manufactured article. I say nothing against fair foreign competition, but I protest against a predilection in favour of things German being carried out to such an extent as this. I hope the Motion will be carried to a Division, for the names will indicate who are the Members who are in favour of encouraging the foreign against the British article.

I am afraid, after the testimony of the hon. Member, there must have been something in my answer the other day which certainly I did not intend to convey. The facts are these: The Stationery Office called for tenders, and, as a matter of fact, these pencils to which reference has been made were supplied by an English firm. A number of samples were put before the Post Office authorities, and they selected those which in their opinion were best suited. I do not suppose they knew whence the pencils were supplied.

I am quite aware that under the Merchandise Marks Act the pencils imported have to be marked. Tenders with samples were offered, and the most suitable tender was accepted; that is the whole story. The objects in view were, first, to get the kind of pencil which best suited the require- ments of the Department; and, secondly, to get it as cheaply as possible. If the hon. Member for Mid Cork will give me some particulars about the samples which are said to have been returned unopened I will institute inquiries on the subject.

I will only ask the right hon. Gentleman if, on going into a telegraph office to send off a telegram, he does not invariably take out his own pencil, because he knows perfectly well it is impossible to write with the official pencil supplied? Only yesterday a gentleman remarked to me it was an unnecessary precaution tying up these pencils, because nobody would attempt to appropriate the thing unless he wished to perpetrate a malicious joke upon a friend by tempting him to write with this indescribable pencil. However it came about, you have got about the worst article you could get. I have several letters from gentlemen who state beyond doubt these samples were never opened; and I say there is every reason to suppose there is some jobbery in connection with this matter, and that the British manufacturers have not been treated fairly.

* (8.15.) : I desire to enter a protest against the doctrine that the Government are justified in buying in the cheapest market irrespective of other considerations. I know that is an old doctrine of political economists; but when we consider the inhuman conditions under which the working classes in Germany live, working for 14 or 16 hours a day at half the wages paid to our operatives, I say that the Government ought not to support such a state of things by continuing to buy goods produced under such conditions. I know there is a great deal of talk on public platforms about the protection of native industries; but when these professions are put to the test they prove to be worthless. By way of illustration I may mention that in this building it was, until recently, impossible to obtain a British-made cigar from the Refreshment Department. We had to pay 6d. for a cigar, a high price for the poorer Members of this House, and the justification urged was that a foreign cigar could not be obtained for less. So that even here among the champions of native industry it was impossible to obtain a cigar of British manufacture. We have them now, but they are miserable things; and we do not get better, I suppose, because they would prejudice the sale of the foreign made article. I only mention this as an example of the hypocrisy there is among those who pose as the champions of native industry. I have no objection to goods being obtained from France, Germany, Italy, or elsewhere if a clause is inserted in every Government contract that goods supplied to them should be manufactured by workmen who receive such wages as enable them to live under decent conditions of life. This view workmen are very apt to take; it finds expression outside this House, and will more and more find expression in the House. If such a condition was insisted upon it would check the importation of these German pencils produced under the conditions to which I have just now referred.

* (8.19.) : I am not at all satisfied with the answer of the right hon. Gentleman as coming from a Tory Government professing a desire to protect the interests of British workmen. I think you ought not to accept tenders at all from German manufacturers. Get the goods as cheaply as you can consistently with the workmen being paid proper wages, and there should be no occasion to have anything to do with foreign manufactures. If the right hon. Gentleman carries out his principle of getting everything in the cheapest market, there must be considerable reductions in the Stationery Office and every other Department. He can get German clerks at a third of the salaries now paid, and I have no doubt from the same source we could obtain a Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Financial Secretary at a much lower income than we think it right to pay. I shall vote for the reduction as a protest against this Germanising tendency—as a protest against the exclusion of British work, and in favour of fair play being given to our own workmen.

* (8.20.) : I rather sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman in endeavouring to obtain the best contract, but the question is, have we got the goods we contracted for? I think we must all admit, if we have had experience of these pencils, that we have got a very bad rubbishy article, and such as certainly should not have been introduced into the Public Service. If the Post Office consider the pencil well fitted for its purpose, then there is little credit to their judgment. I have visited the works of the Keswick manufacturers, and I confess I felt some sympathy with them in the depressed condition of their trade since they lost the Government contracts. I found they supplied good value for money. I bought a quantity of them for my own use, and I think that pencils good enough for commercial purposes ought to be good enough for a Government Department. Certainly the Department ought to get good value for money, but they should see they get the article contracted for.

If my hon. Friend goes to a Division on this question I am afraid that I must support the Government. It is a pity the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture and the right hon. Member for Thanet are not here; they would be delighted with the arguments used, and might think from the remarks of the hon. Members near me that they might have an opportunity of going back to their first love. For my part, I am perfectly satisfied with the answer of the right hon. Gentleman—that he deals in the cheapest and best markets. The arguments of the hon. Gentleman near me, if carried out to their logical conclusion, would land us again in Protection. In the American Congress I have heard Radical Members who go in for Protection use the very arguments employed by my hon. Friend, but here I think the Radical Party adopt the principle of Free Trade. If you go back to Protection you must give it general application, and, of course, apply it to our biggest industry—agriculture—with the consequences. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Shoreditch should come out in this new character.

* : I will not waste the time of the Committee in breaking a lance with the hon. Member, nor do I think it is seemly that we should enter into a personal controversy. The majority of the working classes in this country are Free Traders, and they have not the slightest desire to prevent foreigners from sending their goods to this country. What they do insist upon, however, is that those who manufacture the goods that are imported into this country should live under decent conditions. When you buy pencils from a manufacturer who keeps his people at work some 16 hours a day and pays them half the rate of wages paid in this country, I say the conditions of life for these people are intolerable, and this is what the working classes here object to. I reiterate the expression of my opinion, which is not shaken by the observations of my hon. Friend.

Let me point out to the hon. Members who favour a protective policy that no country is more dependent upon Free Trade for its prosperity than England, because if we shut our doors against foreign goods foreigners will close their markets to ours, and we shall be the greatest losers. It has been said that we cannot compete with the long hours of work on the Continent; but that, I think, is a mistake, for we have the advantage of large capital and appliances, and the command of trade, and can work shorter hours. If it were a question of shutting out foreign competition, I should vote against the hon. Member who has moved this reduction, but I agree with him as to the inferior quality of the pencils supplied; we know it from our own experience. Therefore, if I vote against the Government on this question it will be because the foreign goods which the Government have purchased are of an inferior quality. If Englishmen have fair play they can produce a better article at a lower price than can be obtained abroad. We need not fear because here and there on some small point foreign competition gets the better of us; our capital and appliances, and our command of trade ensure us an advantage generally. If the right hon. Gentleman wants any assurance as to the justice of the complaint against these particular pencils, he has only to go into a telegraph office and try to use the pencil provided for public use. But, of course, lie, like most of us, uses his own pencil. A saving to the Estimates results perhaps, but I do not think this is an advantage to the Public Service.

* (8.28.) : I must protest against the hon. Member for Caithness bringing in the question of Free Trade and Protection. I am, and have always been, a Free Trader, but this is not a question of whether goods are of English or of foreign manufacture, but whether they are of good or of bad quality.

I wish to explain that the reason I intend to vote against the Government on this question is because I believe that the Government have purchased not alone in the cheapest, but in the worst market. These pencils are universally condemned as bad, and it does not follow that because the price is low the goods are cheap. You may buy in the cheapest and in the nastiest market, and the statement of the right hon. Gentleman is a mere travesty of the doctrine of Free Trade.

(8.30.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 85.—(Div. List, No. 354.)

Original Question again proposed.

I have to congratulate the Treasury on the reduction of this Vote, and I think that if the First Lord of the Treasury were more careful and less mechanical in regard to the printing of Amendments to Bills which cannot possibly be reached on many of the days on which they are put down, a few thousand pounds extra might be saved. The contract for publishing what is known as Hansard is now ended, and the Hansard Publishing Company has ended with it. I protested against the contract made with that company at the time it was entered into, and I protest against any other contract of a similar character being made. I know that the majority of the Committee was in favour of the view carried out by the Treasury, and also that the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) was a strong supporter of it, while the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool suggested the course which has been adopted in the House of Lords. For my own part, I do not care whether we have a special report of Parliament or not. I am perfectly indifferent on that subject. We have the Times, which gives a very fair report, and a very full report, and we have the local papers in various parts of the country which give fuller reports of particular Members, so that those persons who desire fuller re- ports than are given in the Times are able to get them. Therefore, I say I am not particular whether we have a special Parliamentary report or not. What I do say is, that if you want to have a full report, you ought to have an accurate report. Year after year Hansard's Company have sent to me reports of my own speeches and I have chucked them into the waste paper basket unopened, because I have not wished to be troubled by going through them. Hansard condenses what is said to about one third, and it is utterly impossible to do this without a great many inaccuracies. If a thing is worth doing at all it is worth doing well. We ought to have an accurate report and a full report if we are going to spend public money for such a purpose. Of course, it suits those who have the control of these reports to take them from the local papers and re-produce them. They are catering for outside people, and, therefore, they give full reports where they think it will assist them, and they condense them where they think it desirable to do so. They are, in fact, merely trying to sell their wares. I happen to know something of the gentlemen with whom the Treasury made this contract, and who have used this as a lever for taking over Hansard's Company and a great many other companies, and I know also that a great many Members of this House have lost a considerable amount of money in this business. The Hansard Publishing Company offered to do for nothing that for which we have previously been expending £5,000 a year in the shape of subsidy, not because they could make a profit out of it, but because by getting the contract they would be able to throw dust in the eyes of the country, and induce people to believe that with their £1,000,000 at their back they were doing something very good. Their contract, however, will end with this year, and a new contract will doubtless be made by the Treasury. I want to know from the Secretary to the Treasury what course the Government intend to take in regard to this matter. Is it intended to put the reporting to contract again, and accept the lowest tender, permitting the speeches to be condensed to one-third of their real length, which, as I have said is the present system—taking a word here and there, very often without making sense of it. If the Government propose to do that, I shall take every opportunity of opposing it, unless the feeling of the House is with them, or a Select Committee recommends such a course, in which case my action would be useless. If the Treasury intends to revert to the system which existed years ago, or to carry on the system that has prevailed during the last three years, it will be a waste of public money, and I shall go dead against it. I think the general feeling is that we should have a full report which ought to be an accurate one, and that there ought to be no question of sweating in the production of the report. A short time ago the gentleman who edits these Hansard Reports sent round a circular, in which he suggested that there should be two contracts, one for the reporting and the other for the printing. I do not know that that would be a wise system to adopt, because it would afford the Secretary to the Treasury the opportunity of saying, when any complaint was made, that this or that was due to the printing, or, on the other hand, that it was due to the reporting. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to be responsible for both the printing and reporting. I can only repeat that I am glad there has been a reduction in this Vote, and I think it would be well if the Government were to adopt the suggestion I have made and refrain from printing so many pages of controversial Amendments relating to Bills which have no opportunity of being discussed, on many of the occasions on which they are put down. I should also like to know what the Treasury propose to do in reference to the Hansard contract.

There is one point I wish to bring before the House, and that is with reference to the absence of the Law Reports from the Library. It seems to me exceedingly desirable that hon. Members should have access to those Reports. Doubtless the answer that will be given is that they can be obtained from the House of Lords, but I must point out that the House of Lords is not always sitting. Moreover, it does not sit either so early or so late as we do, so that during a considerable portion of the time we are sitting we may be unable to obtain such volumes as we may require. Those who are in the habit of consulting the Law Reports know that they are constantly obliged to consult earlier cases, and this necessarily involves repeated references to the different books. I submit that as a question of practical convenience hon. Members ought to have copies of the Law Reports in the Library of this House. No doubt the lawyers are able to obtain access to the Law Reports at the Lincoln's Inn or Temple Libraries, but those who, like myself, do not have access to those Libraries have no means of getting at the Reports. Doubtless we might go to the British Museum, but that would hardly be a very convenient course. I would therefore suggest that, as these Law Reports contain what the Judges lay down from time to time as the law of the land, it is necessary that those who are engaged in legislative duties should not only have their own children by them, but should also have access to those belonging to the other branch. It may be said that it would be difficult to find room for these Reports, but I do not think the Librarian would find much difficulty in affording the requisite space. I hardly know what answer the Government may give to me. I certainly think the question of expense would hardly be a sufficient ground for refusing my request. What I would suggest is not that we should in the first instance obtain the whole of the Reports necessary for a lawyer's library, but that we should make a commencement with the more modern Law Reports. It might be convenient to take at first only the reports of the last 30 years, technically known as the Law Reports, because practically the legal decisions contained in those reports have the most bearing on matters coming before us as legislators. I think if you confine your attention at first to the reports of the last 30 years, you will thus have a manageable collection of volumes which would be very convenient for the use of the House.

I should like to call attention to the desirability of getting at certain portions of the Historical Manuscripts, which have become very rare, and are now very difficult to obtain. These MSS. are of enormous historical value, and are being very much sought after; and persons who begin to make a collection find it almost impossible to render that collection complete, because three or four of the MSS. he requires are out of print, or have become so rare that what could at one time have been bought for 3s. or 4s. now costs £4 or £5. If the Treasury would undertake to republish those rare MSS., it would very much help the sale of the other MSS., and be of great advantage to historical scholars throughout the Kingdom. It would also be well if there could be some revision in the numbering of the volumes, which is now exceedingly complicated. What is wanted is that they should bear consecutive numbers, so that those who possess them could easily see whether they have a complete set. I hope the Treasury will give a favourable consideration to the suggestions.

The hon. Member for Caithness has drawn attention to the fact that the Hansard contract is about to terminate, and has asked whether it is intended to call for a new contract. It would be a difficult position for the Treasury to occupy if they were to endeavour to make any arrangement with an individual firm without submitting the matter to public competition. I think, therefore, that the proper course is to invite tenders for this important work.

The tenders will be for that for which we have invited tenders before. The Treasury are acting in this matter upon a Report of a Joint Committee of both Houses, and the present contract was based on the recommendation of the Committee. We have no other basis before us. The question as to whether we should have a full report or a condensed report of the proceedings of Parliament is undoubtedly an interesting, but it is hardly a practical, one at this moment. I may state that I have not heard any complaints as to the form in which the Reports have been published. I think that on some occa- sions they might be a little fuller than they are, and this might be a point to insert in the specification, but I know of no other alteration that is necessary. The whole question was carefully gone into by the Committee to which I have referred, and my recollection is that the Committee were unanimous except on one point, and on that one point the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool was the only exception. With regard to the question of providing the Law Reports which has been referred to by the hon. Member for Eccles, that is a matter which has been under consideration for some time, about eight months. I promised to make inquiry as to whether there was space in the Library for the edition known as "The Law Reports," and I found there was great difficulty in finding space for so many volumes. With regard to the "Historical Manuscript Reports," the question referred to by the hon. Member for South Birmingham is at the present moment under the consideration of the Printing Committee. The hon. Member promised to write to me, but he has not done so.

I promised to communicate with the right hon. Gentleman, and I have done so in this way.

I have caused inquiries to be made, but have not been very well informed as to the particular volumes.

If it is more convenient I will communicate with the right hon. Gentleman and tell him exactly what volumes are out of print. The matter may be left where it is for the present.

I was glad to hear the answer the right hon. Gentleman gave as to the Law Reports. I presume he will include Reports of Scotch Law as well as English Law and Irish Law. As to space, I think I can point out a convenient place for the Reports in the Reading Room downstairs. Shelves could be there arranged which would contain all the volumes, and it would be convenient to have them there as they would be easy of access. If the question of space is the only difficulty, I think there is no reason why the volumes should not be provided at once. I should like to call attention to the profit made on printing the Gazettes. I have found the profit on the three Gazettes, London, Edinburgh, and Dublin, to be £25,000. I think that this is a most unnecessary profit and an unnecessary tax upon trade. Not only is it a tax upon trade, but it falls upon unfortunate traders, because it is the bankrupt traders who are compelled by Statute to insert notices in these Gazettes. In the case of the Edinburgh Gazette the cost of production is £284, and the receipts are £3,799, which shows a net profit of over £3,500. That, I think, is out of all proportion, and is highly objectionable as a profit made out of the misfortunes of unfortunate traders. It is not a reasonable principle on which to levy taxation. Of all sources of revenue this is the one least to be commended, and, therefore, with the view of ascertaining the opinion of the Government in the matter, I beg to move the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £100.

Motion made, and Question proposed' "That item L, printing, &c., of Gazettes, be reduced by £100."—( Mr. Caldwell. )

I do not know what reply the hon. Member expects to get. It is certainly a curious complaint to make, that the Government should make a little profit out of the printing of the public Gazettes. It is true that we have lately made some changes by which we have saved a few thousand pounds a year, but I think that the charge is not unreasonable, and I do not think that I can promise any alteration.

The publishing of the Edinburgh Gazette only costs £284, and the fees amount to £3,799. I think that the right hon. Gentleman can hardly maintain that this is a reasonable charge. Can the right hon. Gentleman give an instance in business, or anywhere else, where such an enormous profit is charged as 1,000 per cent.? The rate of these fees is calculated by the Exchequer. They can charge what they like because the Statute compels the placing of these advertisements in the Gazettes. This tax upon trade—and on unfortunate traders—is utterly unworthy of the Government and of the principle upon which the taxation of the country is based. We tax the country on its wealth, or supposed wealth, and here the Government tax the people on their misfortunes, and leave them no means of evading the tax. And this operates more heavily against Scotland than against England, because the amount received from England is only five times the amount received from Scotland; and not only that, but Scotch traders in some instances are bound to advertise in the London Gazette as well as in the Edinburgh Gazette, so that money from Scotland goes to swell up the profit made on the London Gazette. I trust the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury will regard this matter not merely from an official point of view but from an unofficial point of view.

How long has the present printer a right to publish the Gazette; when will the contract cease, and what does he pay for it?

I believe the present contract for publishing the Edinburgh Gazette is for seven years, of which two or three years have run. The sum paid for publishing it is £1,100.

(94.1.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 28; Noes 93.—(Div. List, No. 355.)

I rise to move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £100. I gave notice of the reduction because I want, if possible, to get a full statement of particulars from the Government as to what they intend to do in regard to the Parliamentary Reports. In the first place, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would be good enough to comply with the request of the hon. Member for Caithness, to give the Committee the name of the person with whom the Government entered into the contract which is now about to come to an end. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, amongst other things, whether, in connection with the new contract he says they are just considering, he will have regard to the advisability of bringing the reporters into the body of the House, as has been done in the House of Lords. I do not know whether what is going on upstairs now can be called sweating, but certainly complaints have been made. I wish to say that I do not think the reporting is badly done; on the contrary, I think it is very well done indeed, especially as we only pay for it indirectly by taking a certain number of volumes per year; but there are those who think we should have longer reports. ["Oh!"] It is all very well for hon. Members to cry "Oh!" I am not at all satisfied that we could not get longer reports for the same money we pay for short reports. [ Laughter. ] Well, that is the evidence we receive from the House of Lords. I should like to know whether in the new contract that is to be made, the right hon. Gentleman will arrange that the price of the daily edition to Members of this House shall be 3d. instead of 1s., which is almost prohibitive. [ Laughter. ] It is not, perhaps, prohibitive to Attorney Generals, who receive plenty of fees from the public as well as from this House. Probably they do not mind whether the charge is 1s. or 3d.; but those gentlemen who have not an opportunity of receiving, or are not allowed by law to take fees as lawyers are in connection with the Public Business of this country, would find it greatly to their advantage to get the daily parts at 3d. instead of 1s. I hope that care will be taken in the new contract to see that the names of the House of Commons and the British Government are not used for the purpose of promoting bogus companies and plundering the British public. Undoubtedly, those names have been so used in connection with the existing contract that the British public have been plundered to a very large extent. I do not pretend to say whether the work ought to be done by one or two contracts. So far as I understand them, I do not agree with the statements in the pamphlet sent round to hon. Members by the editor of Hansard , for I think that somebody ought to be responsible for the printing and publishing, so that we may know whom to blame in case of delay. If we had two contracts, one party might blame the other, and we should not know to whom blame could be attached. I think we should also be able no matter at what cost in reason, to employ the very best reporters that can be got, and on such terms that whoever gets the contract shall be able to keep the reporters specially for this work from year to year. Whether we have short reports or long reports, everyone is agreed that we should have some report in the nature of Hansard, and I think all are agreed that the reporting should be done in the best manner. I do not wish to detain the Committee at any length, but it is a matter of considerable interest not only to this House, but to the country, that we should settle this contract on the very best terms. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman when he accepts the next contract will not do so on behalf of the Government simply because it is the lowest tender, so that it may be made use of again simply for the purpose of plundering the public. I desire to get as many particulars as I can with regard to this matter, and if we do not get sufficient information from the right hon. Gentleman I shall go to a Division. I move that the Vote be reduced by £100.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item M, Parliamentary Debates, &c., be reduced by £100."—( Mr. Morton. )

I am one of the few Members in the House who objected to the change when it was made three years ago. I thought then that it would be a very unfortunate change for this House, and it has turned out to be so. The only thing I wish to urge is that in making the new contract considerations other than those of mere cheapness should influence the Government. I think that for the dignity of this House, the old reputation of Hansard should at least be kept up. I am bound to say, having looked over the reports issued under the new conditions, that, notwithstanding the fact that they are a little more lengthy, I fail to find in them that completeness, compactness, and fulness in the proper sense of the term that were to be found in the old Hansard. In making this comment it is only fair that I should urge on the Government that they should not have consideration merely to the 130 or 120 copies that they purchase from the contractor, but that they shall have in view the necessity of doing something to preserve the historical records of this House. Often in various parts of the world the only thing to refer to as to the Debates in this House is Hansard. The Times' reports are exceedingly good, considering that they are out on the morning after the Debates. I do not wish to say one word against the Times' reports, but we want something which will be accepted as an authoritative report of the proceedings of the House. I would press upon the right hon. Gentleman that some consideration other than cheapness should be taken into account in making a new contract, and if that is not done I, for one, shall certainly draw attention to the matter next Session.

* (9.59.) : I only wish to say a few words with reference to the subject under discussion. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend (MR. Howell) in regard to the character of the reports now supplied to us. For my part, I think that Hansard is decidedly improved. There is no comparison between the present and the past. I agree, however, with what has been said as to the use that has been made of the name of Hansard and the disastrous results that have followed. I hope that in the new contract the Treasury will take care to safeguard the honour and dignity of the country against a repetition of such shameful practices. But I rise simply for the purpose of joining in the appeal in favour of a reduction being made in the price of Hansard, at least to Members of the House. I think that half the price now charged would be quite sufficient. I presume the Treasury will oppose any attempt to reduce the price of Hansard to Members; but when I recollect that by the Gazettes of London, Dublin, and Edinburgh there is made a profit of something like £25,000 a year, it seems to me in that profit there is an opportunity afforded to the Treasury of making a little sacrifice in the direction indicated. What do we find takes place in other countries? In the United States there is a full and official report. I hope the time will come when we shall have a report of the same character. Of course, I should like our report to be free from the abuses which have crept into the report in the United States. It is quite a common practice there for a member to prepare a long speech and commence to read it; but when he has been on his legs a few minutes the other Members become impatient and he sits down, on the understanding that his speech will be published in the Congressional Record. Thus the speech is palmed off on outsiders as one that has been delivered in the House. I do not wish to suggest for a moment that we should tolerate anything of that kind, but we ought to have some kind of official report, produced under the supervision of a Department of the State, and issued at a cheap rate. I hope, at all events, the Government will strain a point to supply Hansard to Members at a cheaper rate than it has been obtainable at hitherto.

I am bound to say, having read in the papers all about the Hansard Union business, that I do not think the Government can be acquitted of having been the cause of ruin or great loss to hundreds of people. The Treasury had no business to enter into this contract. It was necessarily a ruinous contract for the company, who were not paid for the work they were doing. I do not read the Hansard proofs, but throw them in the waste paper basket; but the company have been doing better work than was ever done in the olden times. Therefore it must have been evident to the Treasury that the work was undertaken by the company as a kind of catchpenny, just as a tradesman puts an article in a shop window at a price that cannot pay, in order to attract customers. The contract was taken by the company for the purpose of sharking the public, who were led to believe it was a profitable contract, and were thus induced to invest their money in shares. The public were never informed that the whole basis of Hansard was a matter of £1,000. Upon this the Union, with something like £300,000 capital, was floated, to say nothing of the Anglo-Austrian Paper Company, or Papier Mâché Company. It was a wrong thing on the part of the Government to allow all this to go on, knowing as they did how the Government contract was being dangled before the eyes of the public. All this has been done by a man whose record in the Bankruptcy Court the other day was one of the most amazing disclosures that even London or South African finance has yet shown. A man who bad not a sixpence ten years ago has been able to get from the public hundreds of thousands of pounds, and all on the basis of this contract giving the right to use the historic Parliamentary name of Hansard. There is not a sharper man in the world than the Secretary to the Treasury. I know something of the way he has done his work in Ireland, and I think he is one of the keenest and most competent men that ever occupied his position, and that being so his blame is, in my judgment, all the greater. The right hon. Gentleman ought to have known something about Bottomley and the way in which he was using this Parliamentary contract for company mongering. By the use of the name of Hansard , dust was thrown into the eyes of thousands of people, because it is absurd to say that if the company had been called John Smith & Co., or any name of that kind, the public would have taken up the shares. I think the right hon. Gentleman when giving the contract to this company ought to have seen that they were asking a figure which would pay. I wonder whether the widows and orphans who have been ruined by Hansard know what Hansard was getting out of the Government. I will tell them. What the Government did for Hansard was to buy 120 copies, and sundry odd copies, of the report at £5 5s. 0d. each. In all they paid £650. I suppose it cost Hansard £5 to produce each set of volumes, so that the profit may have been 5s. a set. I suppose they made £30 a year profit, if as much. And this contract was the foundation on which many unhappy people lost their money. I say that in this matter a great responsibility lies with the head of the Treasury. Having brought about this great scandal what is the next step? What is going to be done with regard to Parliamentary reporting? The present Government are not to blame for this penuriousness in the matter of reporting; they only adopted the policy of their predecessors. When a Minister is out of office he is anxious for an official report, but when he is at the Treasury he sneers at such a report, and asks the public to do the reporting. At the present moment the reports for Hansard are being done for both Houses by a receiver: the Commons have a receiver in the gallery, and the Lords on the floor of the House; that is what we have come to. What has happened ought to be a warning to the Government. Reporting is a great craft. The reporter requires to know his craft and a great deal about many subjects. This Parliamentary work ought not to be given to a person coming into the market to make a profit. While we are condemning sweating at the East-end this contract was a palpable absurdity. Something ought to be done to give a proper status to the reporters of the Debates, and some explanation is due from the Government to the unfortunate shareholders of the company.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has thrown blame on the Treasury for what they have done in connection with the Hansard Company. I do not think the Treasury, if they had the business to do over again, and had the knowledge they possessed at the time this contract was entered into, would take any other course than that which they have taken. There had been a Joint Committee of both Houses which recommended a certain course of action. In order to give effect to the Committee's recommendation the Treasury must do one of two things—they must either enter into arrangements privately with some firm, or they must invite public tenders. It would not have been satis- factory to the House if they had made a private arrangement, and in that case I am sure the condemnation of the hon. Member who has just spoken would have been quite as strong as is his condemnation of what has occurred. I think it is the essence of questions of this kind that there should be thorough publicity as to what is required; and, secondly, that there should be open competition, that there should be a fair field and no favour to all those who are competent to discharge the duties. Tenders were invited. The Treasury fixed no price themselves, but followed the recommendations of the Committee. I believe it was a recommendation of the Committee that the price of the daily parts should be 1s; and one condition laid down was that the Treasury would take 120 copies for distribution amongst the Departments. In response to the invitation four or five tenders were sent in, and the firm which made the lowest tender was accepted. It must be fully understood that the Government had every reason to believe that the firm whose tender they accepted was fully capable of discharging the duties which they had undertaken, and I do not think that hon. Members have any complaint to make as to the way in which the work has been done. In these circumstances, the Government could take no other course than to accept the tender of the firm who offered to do the work upon the lowest terms. The hon. Member has spoken as if the tender was made by the Hansard Union, and we knew what was going on. The firm who took the tender was Macrae, Curtice, & Co.

Certainly. The question of the hon. and learned Member for Longford may have been put in such a form as to make the answer to it convey that impression. When the firm sent in its tender it was registered under the Joint Stock Acts. The day has gone past when you can make much distinction between a company and a private concern, but the Government took extra precaution in this matter by requiring the company to give security for the due performance of the work. In these circumstances, I fail to see what other course the Government could have taken than the one they adopted. Hon. Members have complained that the Government accepted the lowest tender; but if all other things are equal, and the Government had reason to believe they were in the present case, surely we are bound to accept the lowest tender. It is perfectly true that Macrae, Curtice, &Co. has been bought up, and has been consolidated with other businesses into a great concern, and that that concern has not been successful, but it was impossible for the Government to ascertain the real state of the case at the time they entered into the contract. The Government, however, when the real position of affairs came to their knowledge, took the earliest opportunity of terminating the contract, and, as a matter of fact, the contract will terminate at the end of the present Session. The Government will, of course, invite fresh tenders, and will endeavour to select some firm who, so far as we can judge, is perfectly competent to perform the work in a satisfactory manner. Beyond that, it is quite impossible for me to give any pledge in the matter.

I think in fairness to the right hon. Gentleman I ought to say that when Macrae, Curtice, & Co. took this contract they were a very respectable firm. There was a fusion of two firms, a printing and publishing firm. The printer, Mr. Durant, was the Member for Stepney in the last Parliament, and Mr. Curtice was a publisher for 30 years, and he carried on a very good business. But Mr. Horatio Bottomley came in as managing director and ruined the business. The Treasury were aware that Mr. Bottomley was arranging the contract. It was announced that the company were going to push the Reports amongst the trade and thus make the thing pay. 1 protested then, as I protest now, against the invitation of the Government to firms to tender not for a full or even a fair report, but merely for a report that will give one-third of what a speaker says. It is left to some reporter in a corner of the Gallery to determine what that one-third shall be. If the Member feels aggrieved with the report he has to write out what he wishes to appear; he has, in fact, to edit his own speech. The hon. Member for Northampton does not want a report, and I would much prefer to have no report at all rather than have, such an one as we now get. If you are going to have a report let it be an accurate one. A better report than that of Hansard is to be found in the Times , although I am ready to admit that the form in which Hansard is furnished to hon. Members is very convenient. The Government will have to make up their minds whether they will have the reports based upon the commercial principles or whether they will give a subsidy. Personally, I think the present method of tendering is the one wrong one.

The right hon. Gentleman has defended the action of the Government by saying that the price of the daily parts was fixed by the Committee, but it is quite competent for the Government to over-rule the decision of that Committee as they have those of so many other Committees. This is the only country in which Members are called upon to buy the official report. In the United States, where Members are paid for their services, every Member of Congress receives six copies of the Congressional Record free every day. I hope, therefore, that my very modest request of reducing the price to 6d. will be acceded to.

I hope that if the request of the hon. Member is acceded to some means may be provided for those hon. Members who do not want the reports to signify the fact to the Government. For my own part, I never read anything that I have said, because I hope that I get wiser every day of my existence. I look sometimes with regret on what I have said, because I hope to be able by practice to speak in a briefer fashion. When we begin to thresh out our differences of opinion as to what we consider an accurate report, we find ourselves at loggerheads. There is a verbatim report, and outside a verbatim report there is only good and bad reporting. The reporter must compress, and it depends upon the reporter whether the compression is well done or not. Speaking generally, I do not think the reports we at present are very good. When Hansard took the Times report, I do not say it was what it should be, but it was fairly good. Hansard's report was better than is the Company's report. The reports we have are not, I think, up to the reports of speeches we get in provincial newspapers. I venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it is always very desirable in accepting a tender to consider who those who tender are. Anybody may tender to do the work badly, but what we want is a thoroughly good report. I do not say a verbatim report. I do not think a verbatim report either possible or desirable, but a fair and reasonable précis of what is said in the House would be useful. That we do not get at present, and I doubt very much whether we can get it without paying something for it. I was on the Committee, and I confess that I was very much surprised to hear that the firm referred to had tendered to do the work gratis, particularly as Hansard had received over £5,000 per annum for it, and I do not suppose that Hansard, even in the perfunctory way in which the work was done, got anything like £5,000 a year by it. It may be a melancholy fact, but it is undoubtedly true, that the general public are not so anxious to read our speeches as we may think, and, for my own part, I cannot possibly imagine any sane human being buying Hansard's reports and sitting down to pass a cheerful evening reading them. The fact is, the work is not one for general circulation, and to imagine that any firm can make money by reporting all the speeches in the House, and then publishing them in a presentable form, is an entire illusion. I only rose, however, to suggest that, if we are to have a good and satisfactory report, it would be well that the Treasury should look closely into the firms which tender, and in order to secure such a report I do not think a reasonable sum would be badly spent by the House.

* (10.34.) : I understand the hon. Member for Northampton does not read his speeches, but he thinks he is improving day by day, and I hope that is so. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury has not replied to the suggestions I made, nor given me any assurance that the Government will even consider them. I first asked a question about the charge made for the daily copies of Hansard to Members. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that the price was recommended by the Committee, but surely that does not settle the matter for ever; surely he will go so far as to say the Treasury will consider the wishes of Members in the matter. I asked, next, whether the Government would consider the suggestion of placing reporters on the floor of the House, as in the House of Lords, where the plan has been very successful I am told. I suppose we could find as much room for them here. I am sure there is no desire, so far as I know, to imply that the right hon. Gentleman had any idea of the use to which the contract in question was going to be put; but I can only say that in a few hours, or in a very short time, it was known in the City of London who had got the contract and what was going to be done—that the contractors were about to apply to the public for money. This was known almost before the contract was signed. I shall certainly go to a Division on this matter unless I get an assurance that the Treasury will consider the questions of enabling hon. Members to get the daily copies of the reports for 3d. each, of placing reporters on the floor of the Chamber, and of making it a condition of the contract to have, not simply one-third, but a fair report of the proceedings of the House.

I heard with some surprise the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, in which he said the Treasury could not know how the contract would be used. I have referred to the Estimates for 1887, the year before the Hansard Union was founded. The public who have lost their hundreds of thousands should understand what has been done. The right hon. Gentleman tells us the Treasury had but one duty, to make the best contract they could in the interests of the taxpayers. But the taxpayer can be bled not only by taxes, but by losses. You have saved the taxpayer ¼d. in taxation, you have let in the taxpayers who subscribed to Hansard for losses to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds. Here is the estimate for Hansard this year: 120 copies of the Debates, at £5 5s.—£650. The Estimates show that in 1888 a grant in aid was made to Hansard, and in that year Hansard received £5,150 for doing what in the present year they are doing for £650. It is absurd for a Minister to talk about a contractor coming to the Treasury and saying he was going to form a Limited Liability Company, and would do for nothing work which cost Hansard £6,000 a year to do, and without making any money by it. Surely the Treasury ought to have had their eyes open as to what was going to take place. On the face of it it is absurd. Does it not point to some job, something in the City, something smelling, a job the scent of which the nostrils of the Government ought to have scented. Now the right hon. Gentleman asks, what were the Treasury to do? Well, I must say I think if a man were to come to me and offer to do for £650 work for which I had been paying £6,000, I should be disposed to ask: "My friend, how are you going to work it? How are you going to get the bulge on the public in this thing?" I think most men not in the habit of dealing with Treasury millions would take that view. Certainly the shareholders of the company in question would have thought it extremely curious that the Treasury was to get this work done for nothing, whereas the old contractor, not a Limited Liability Company, got more than £5,000 for it. The right hon. Gentleman lays down the proposition that the Treasury had only to get the work done anyhow, but here we have the evil result. The Treasury may have saved a few thousand pounds, but the public have lost £300,000; that is how the profit and loss of the thing stands. Why, if a man comes to the Treasury and offers to run the whole British Empire for £1 a week— Army, Navy, Volunteers, and all—are you to accept the offer as a matter of course? The blame of the transaction rests on the Treasury, and the right hon. Gentleman has not met the case by the statements he has made. So much for the past, but what as to the future? It is not creditable to the House or to the country to leave the question of reporting our Debates in the way in which it now stands. For my own part, I do not care a brass button whether Hansard is given up or not. I am quite sure nobody cares much about it outside the House; but if it is to be kept up, let it be on a well understood and responsible system. The Houses of Lords and Commons have sat in Committee on this subject, and now what it comes to is that you get somebody to do the work for nothing. I say the business of reporting our Parliamentary Debates ought not to be jobbed about in this way. I think it is pretty well understood Hansard did not make a profit out of the subsidy. I do not imagine the £4,500 included the admirable work done in Select Committees? [MR. JACKSON: No.] Well, then, I say in reference to the question what is our Parliamentary reporting to come to, would it not be possible to have a combination whereby the admirable craftsmen who do the work of the Committees could afterwards, supposing there is a sufficient staff, be turned on to give a précis of the proceedings in the House? The hon. Member for Northampton has said Hansard did well when adopting the Times' report. Well, as regards English Debates, I will admit the Times' reports are very good. But that is not the case when the Times deals with Irish Debates. It seems to be the rule in the Times' report, when an Irishman makes a point, to leave it out. I suppose this is somewhat on the Johnsonian principle "taking good care the Whig dogs did not get the best of it." That is my experience of the Times; at any rate, during the last few years. But I say a system by which the Debates are adapted from the Times, and produced by a cheap staff, is not a satisfactory state of things. The Government should say exactly what it is that they require. It is not enough to invite tenders for a report. Is it to be an original report—a Times report—what is it to be? I do not suppose anybody wants a verbatim report. Whatever it is you decide to have, let the contractor know what it is you want; and if for an original report a subsidy is required—£4,000, or £5,000, or £10,000—let it be granted if you want such a report.

There is no difficulty about the matter; all the particulars are set out in the specifications, and if any further information is required, it, of course, can be obtained at the Stationery Office. But the whole thing is set out in the specification. It is part of the arrangement that there shall be always in the House a reporter to watch the proceedings—Questions, General Debates, Committees; in fact, the whole proceedings. The question raised by the hon. Member for Peterborough with regard to bringing the reporters downstairs was considered by the Committee. The difficulty in the House of Lords was owing to the acoustics of the Chamber, and the fact that in the Gallery the reporters could not properly hear. The consequence was, that in order to enable them to hear the reporters were brought downstairs. There is no difficulty of that kind in this House. I think there are objections to fixing the price of Hansard to hon. Members lower than to the public. Whatever the price fixed to Members of the House, we ought to allow the public to purchase at the same price. If there is any feeling on the matter, I am perfectly willing to consider it, but I do not think there is likely to be a great sale.

* : I hope the Treasury will not reduce the price, because it will only tend to increase the amount of small talk in Supply. For this reason, I would rather have the price increased than diminished. It will merely satisfy vanity and meet no public demand.

(10.50.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 35; Noes 131.—(Div. List, No. 356.)

Original Question again proposed.

Some time since I drew the attention of the Treasury to the grievances of the Custom House clerks in relation to the bills of entry, and there can be no doubt that they have been most unjustly treated. I do not know who was answerable for the change, but I do know that it was most unjustly made.

The hon. Member is referring to something that was done many years ago, and has no reference to the expenditure in the present year.

I find the accounts here, and I submit that I am in order in discussing these.

The hon. Member's criticisms would only apply to action taken some years ago.

Very well, Sir; I move the reduction of the Vote by £500. I can substantiate my case, and next Session I will move for a Select Committee on the subject.

Order, order! The arrangement in question was made some years ago, and has no reference to the present Estimate.

I shall move the reduction of the Vote by £500, and shall ventilate my case next Session.

Motion made, and Question put' "That Item N, Printing, &c., for Bills of Entry, be reduced by £500."—( MR. Atkinson. )

(11.4.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 14; Noes 160.—(Div. List, No. 357.)

Original Question again proposed.

I wish to ask who is the Minister of the Crown responsible for the printing arrangements. We have continually to make complaints about the printing, and especially of delay in the issue of Papers, but we are invariably told by the Ministers to whom the complaint is made that they have no control over the matter. I think there ought to be some one in a position to answer our questions. I think sometimes that the Treasury is not particularly anxious to bring the printers under a general control, because it is convenient for Ministers to be able to hurry on some Papers and delay others without assuming any responsibility towards Parliament. I repeat I think there should be a Minister responsible to Parliament for the printing arrangements, whom hon. Members can question as to delays in the printing of Papers.

The hon. Member asks who is the Minister responsible for the delays that take place. I may point out that the printer has to get the Papers from the several Departments, each Department sending in its own. In any case where the printer has not used despatch, if the matter is brought to the notice of the Chairman of the Printing Committee, the Member for Wigton, it will be inquired into.

That is all I want to know. If in future we have to complain of delay, our inquiries must be addressed to the Member for Wigton.

* : I must, as a Member of the Parliamentary Papers Distribution Committee, say I do not think it is part of our duty to accelerate the printing of Papers.

I did not say it was; I only suggested that the Chairman of the Committee would inquire into any complaints as to delay.

I think the charges for Parliamentary Papers are too high. There are a great many Blue Books which contain information that would be valuable to a great number of persons, and it is a mistake to charge so highly for them. I would suggest that the Government should follow the system adopted especially in the book business, and try to get large sales with small profits.

I have another matter arising under this Vote to which I wish to draw attention. I see the sum put down for Parliamentary Papers for the free libraries is £100. That shows a very niggardly distribution. There is a good deal of humbug about some of these libraries. Their only use is to provide three-volume novels for young persons, and it would be desirable to provide them with some solid reading. More solid reading than these Blue Books could not be found. If these books are of any value at all to the free libraries more of them ought to be distributed.

Seven; from 10 till 5.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £15,624, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1892, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments."

I rise for the purpose of moving the reduction of the Vote which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Inverness-shire, and my object is to call attention to the question of the alienation of rights in salmon fishing in Scotland. In Scotland certain salmon fishings are vested in the Crown, not as a personal emolument, but on behalf of the public. In 1872 the Woods and Forests Department began under an Act to alienate salmon fisheries, and a considerable amount of irritation has been created in Scotland. The question has been raised on former occasions, and the Government have undertaken that no more alienations shall take place until the matter has been definitely determined. A Committee has made substantial recommendations as to the salmon fishings being utilised for the benefit of the public by way of licences in such a way that public rights may be utilised for the benefit of the public in general. I wish to know whether the Government are still prepared to carry out the policy of having no more alienations of these salmon fishings in Scotland; and, further, whether the Government are prepared, and to what extent, to carry out the recommendations of the Commissioners whom they appointed? I beg to move the reduction of the Vote by £100.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A, salaries, be reduced by £100, part of the salary of the Chief Commissioner."—( Mr. Caldwell. )

* (11.26.) : There is a further point connected with the rights of the Crown in Scotland—namely, the salmon fishing in loch and fresh-water lakes. In one case there has been an alienation in recent years—the case of Loch Morar.

* : No. But I want an assurance from the Government that it shall not occur again. The salmon fishing rights were not of very great monetary value. But after the alienation of these salmon - fishing rights very serious other rights were found to have been alienated from the public to private individuals. The result was that in the case of this vast lake (Loch Morar), one of the largest lakes in Scotland, it has been found that by giving to the riparian proprietors the rights of salmon fishings which are vested by the Crown in the Office of Woods and Forests, this vast lake has been shut up against the public and the inhabitants of the locality. That is a very serious public grievance indeed. I believe that when the Office of Woods and Forests sanctioned the alienation, they were quite unaware of the consequences. I think we should demand from the Department of the Government representing the Woods and Forests that in future no such alienation of Crown rights, with the results I have referred to, shall be made.

I think it is very desirable that these Crown rights in salmon fishings should be very jealously watched over, and that the Government should give some indication of what policy they intend to pursue with regard to them. I believe that the rights of the Crown are involved in the question of public rights in general. The Member for St. Rollox is wrong in his statement as to the rights in this matter. The rights of white fishing in the sea are held by the Crown as trustee for the public, but in regard to salmon fishing and mussel gathering they are the private property of the Crown, and therefore can be easily dealt with. I believe that one of the important points to be attended to is to fix exactly where the title rests in regard to those Crown rights. No one can claim rights except by direct grants from the Crown, but I believe that in many cases rights are claimed by private individuals to which they have no title whatever. A great step would be gained if we couid thoroughly clear up throughout Scotland exactly what fisheries have passed to private persons and what still remains with the Crown.

My belief is that there is no such thing as private property in the Crown, and that these salmon fisheries are no more the private property of the Crown than the Palace of Lambeth is the private property of the Archbishop of Canterbury. These so-called private properties of the Crown are properties held for public purposes, and in trust for the nation; and I hold that there is no more atrocious offence than this selling of these Crown rights to private individuals for a mere song, to the detriment of the people of this country. I would not only reduce the salaries of these Commissioners, but I would hang them all. I am, however, afraid, that the steeds having been stolen from the stable, the Conservative Party, with their superstitious regard to rights, however evil, will not be disposed to restore those steeds. We shall have to wait until a Radical Government comes in. We are, however, entitled to a repetition of the pledge that there shall be no more alienations in the future.

I may point out that the money realised by the sale of these rights goes into the Public Purse.

I must say I look with no little anxiety to the answer the Government will make to the general inquiry and complaint as to their policy with regard to the salmon fisheries in Scotland. The Member for Wigtonshire and myself were members of a small Commission on this subject, and I am anxious to know how far the recommendations of that Commission are to be carried out. One recommendation was that there should be no further alienations of salmon fisheries in Scotland, and I hope that promise will be renewed here. But the majority of the Commission went further, and said that, whereas salmon fisheries in the sea in England have always been treated as a public right, and have been interfered with only to the extent of conserving them by useful and reasonable regulations—the public being entitled to fish for salmon in the sea by licence—the history of salmon fishing in Scotland has taken a contrary direction, and that only in recent times. It was not until 1851 that the decision was given, and was confirmed by the House of Lords in 1858, which decided that the right of salmon fishing in the sea in Scotland was declared not to be a public right in the same sense as white fishing; but that it was a right capable of being made a source of revenue, and to be treated as part of the hereditary revenues of the Crown. The Commission recommended that this idea in Scotland should be discontinued. I believe, as a lawyer, that that decision was a mistake, and that it would be far better to follow the example of England in respect to this matter of salmon fishing, and say that this paltry revenue of £6,000 a year which the Crown derives shall not remain an obstacle to the contentment of the fishing population round the coast of Scotland, but that the fishing shall be regulated by licence as in England. In olden times these rights were of very little value, but of recent years they have become of some value, and hence people have assumed a title to them. The Commission have great reason to believe that a large number of private rights in inland fishings have been claimed upon no real title, and they have recommended that the proprietors should be called upon to bring in their titles and show what they are, and that if they do not do so the Crown shall assume that the titles remain with the Crown, and shall resume them for the benefit of the public.

* (11.43.) : I should like to ask whether it is possible at this time of the day to traverse all the arguments in the case referred to by the hon. Member. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests have simply to make the best out of the estate which they have to administer. The Commission over which I have had the honour to preside has made certain recommendations, and although no definite action has been taken on them, the general policy of the Government has been to follow those recommendations. I think I am correct in saying that no alienation of Crown rights has taken place since that time, and all that has been done is to re-let certain several fishings on remote parts of the coast, in most cases to the old tenants, sometimes at reduced rates, whereby I do not think hon. Members will contend that any injury has been done to the public. The hon. Member for West Edinburgh has alluded to the Loch Morar case. I cannot think that the hon. Member accurately recited the facts which were brought before us in evidence during the inquiry. I do not think the mere fact of regulating the rights of salmon fishing in the loch has deprived the people in the neighbourhood of the right of boating. The question of Loch Morar fishings is almost ancient history, and the impression which was left on my mind, after a very careful inquiry and examination of witnesses resident on the spot, was this, that the grievance and injury done to private interests in the neighbourhood has been very greatly exaggerated. There has been no repetition of these complaints since the inquiry took place, and the question is still under the careful consideration of the Government. As to the larger question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, I am not quite sure that the hon. Member knows how large it is. A general search into the titles of any description of property would be, if not inquisitorial, at all events extremely complicated, protracted, and expensive; and I am not certain there is anything more than vague suspicion in the mind of the public that certain persons are exercising rights to which they had not a proper title. I think that until a better case has been shown for a general inquiry it would be inexpedient to undertake what would be a very lengthy and very delicate business. I decidedly think that no case has been shown for such an inquiry.

I did not suggest that an inquiry should be held into the titles of all people holding rights under the Crown, but I did suggest that all persons so holding should be required to register their title within at least two years, and that if they failed to do so, then it should be considered that these salmon or mussel fisheries were still vested in the Crown, and the Crown should be able to deal with them as seemed best for the public.

* : The hon. Gentleman has suggested that I did not accurately explain to the Committee the facts of the case with regard to Loch Morar, and the consequences of alienating their rights. What took place was this—

Order, order! The case of Loch Morar was only incidentally cited as an illustration. It is not relevant to the subject under debate to go into the facts connected with it.

* : I only desired to justify what I had said on the subject. This is really the first case in which the Office of Woods and Forests alienated any such rights in a large enclosed sheet of water, and .I believe that they did it in ignorance of the consequences that might ensue to the public. It was only subsequently that they appreciated the evil results. I want now to get a definite pledge on the part of the Woods and Forests that no such alienation of fishing rights shall take place in the future as has taken place lately.

I also wish to press the Government for a definite pledge that this alienation of the fisheries shall not continue. With regard to information as to title there is a very great difference between Scotland and England; if the Public Register is looked at in Scotland, the title can be decided at once. But there are a large. number of people who claim to exercise their rights of salmon fishing who have not a shred of title.

I do not think there is any difference between the views of the Government and hon. Members as to the general policy to be pursued. The Government are as anxious as hon. Members opposite to take care that no alienation of fishing rights shall take place. There have been no such alienations since the inquiry by the Commission, but I do not think it would be wise or right to say that under no circumstances shall there be no alienations in the future. As I know the view taken by the Department of Woods and Forests, I may say that the general policy of the Department in future will be such as to meet with the approval of hon. Gentlemen opposite.

I was rather surprised that the statement of the hon. Member who sits below me as to the necessity for inquiring into the title of members of the public who claim rights of salmon fishing received the answer that such inquiry would be impossible. The Department have not carried out the recommendation of the Royal Commission in regard to leasing fisheries. The Government ought to see that these recommendations are carried out, and not declare it impossible to trace everybody's title. The Report of the Commission speaks of a belief that there are still many unchartered waters. It is a matter of great importance that inquiry should be made.

* : There is no difference between the attitude which I have taken up on this occasion and the language of the Report, but there is a difference between examining into particular cases and a general investigation. Inquiry should be made in cases where reasonable doubt exists.

I think that the hon Gentleman might have gone further, and laid it down that in the renewal of salmon leases the same course will be followed as used to be taken under the old toll system, of putting them up to tender. By that means a fair price would be obtained. After the scandals which have occurred in the past, the Government ought to take great care to prevent a renewal of them.

(12.4.) The Committee Divided:—Ayes 56; Noes 121.—(Div. List, No. 358.)

Original Question again proposed.

I wish to call the attention of the House to the action of the Woods and Forest Commission in letting Crown lands in allotments. Application was made to the Department to let for that purpose certain Crown lands in Billingborough. This House declared in the Allotments Act that one acre was the proper size of an allotment, but the Woods and Forests Commission have taken it into their heads to declare that half an acre is sufficient, and, in a communication sent down to Billing-borough, it was said—

"Half an acre is as large a quantity of land as can be properly managed by an agricultural labourer, unless under exceptional circumstances, and, as at present advised, the Commissioners would not be disposed to grant to labourers an allotment exceeding that quantity."

I wish to obtain an assurance from the Government that the Comissioners of Woods and Forests will in future comply with the terms of the Allotments Act, and grant allotments of Crown lands to the extent of one acre, whether in England or in Wales, to labourers who apply for them. It is surely a piece of official tyranny to tell a poor man that he is incompetent to manage more than half an acre of land. If he is able to pay the rent for an acre, he should be allowed that quantity of land, and no Government official ought to deprive him of the right to it.

I wish to ask a question, not as to a poor man, but regarding one at the other end of the scale. The hon. Member for Wigtonshire said just now that the Government were bound to make the most of their revenue. Surely, then, it is incumbent on them to get in the debts which are due to the Department. I find in the list of unrecovered debts one in the name of the Duke of Fife for a capital sum of £400, and interest, which in five years has amounted to £75. What security did the Department take from the Duke when the money was advanced? Is there any power of foreclosing? Do the Department stand in the position of mortgagees? Have they any personal security? Surely a person of the rank of the Duke of Fife could get some one to act as surety for him. Why has not payment been enforced? Why should the Duke be treated differently from a poor man?

With reference to the question raised by the hon. Member for Ilkeston, there will be no difficulty in granting the full quantity of land fixed by the Allotments Act to labourers who apply for allotments out of lauds under the control of the Commissioners. I do not think there is any desire to restrict the grants to half an acre. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Donegal, I do not know the particulars of this case, and I cannot, therefore, give him the information he asks for. I anticipate the debt is the subject of a dispute. I will, however, make inquiries into the matter.

I think the answer of the right hon. Gentleman most unsatisfactory. I can see nothing on the Estimates to explain the delay in the collection of this debt. For years and years the Department have allowed the debt to exist, and the interest on it to accumulate. The Duke is in the position of a debtor who has not paid his debts. I suppose the Department has taken no action against him, simply because he is the Duke of Fife. But the House of Commons ought not to be afraid of the Duke, and as we have been unable to get a satisfactory explanation, I shall move to reduce the Vote by the amount of the debt, namely, £400.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A., Salaries, be reduced by £400, part of the Salary of the Chief Commissioner."—( Mr. Arthur O'Connor. )

I do not think the reply that I have made is unreasonable. It is impossible for me to be in a position to enter into details on this subject, as I have received no notice. There are some thousands on the Votes. How can I be expected to be acquainted with each one?

But my attention has not been called to it before; I have no doubt there is a full explanation to be furnished. I am not asking too much when I request the hon. Member to withdraw his Motion. If the Vote is now allowed to pass I will undertake to give the hon. Member full particulars on Report.

I think the attitude of the Government is most unsatisfactory. This debt has been standing since June, 1885, just about the time the Conservatives came into power. It is most extraordinary that while poor Irish farmers who owe the Treasury a few pounds are sold up if they do not pay, this noble Duke, because he is the husband of a lady who gets thousands of pounds from the taxpayers of the country, is allowed to owe this large amount year after year. I can imagine the Attorney General denouncing the wretched ruffians of Irish tenants who fail to fulfil their contracts, but when it comes to be the case of a Duke who heads a South African Company, it is loyal and patriotic not to ask him to pay his debts. If it had been a poor man who owed this money he would have been forced to pay. An Irish tenant who owes £15 for two years is promptly sold up and turned out of house and home. Members of the Government talk about the dishonesty of the Irish tenants, but why not make the Duke pay his debts. [ Loud cries of "Order!"] Members of the Tory Party do not like to hear about this, and as they will not give me a fair hearing I beg to move to report Progress.

I have said nothing offensive to this House. You expect Irish tenant farmers to pay their small and miserable debts, while you do not make the Duke pay his. That is all I have said, and I do not consider that offensive to anybody.

(12.27.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 43; Noes 115.—(Div. List, No. 359.)

Original Question again proposed.

I beg to move, Sir, that you do now report Progress. Two very important matters have yet to be raised on this Vote, namely the condition of the gold industry in Wales and the mal-administration of the Crown quarries in Wales.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."—( Dr. Clark. )

* : I would point out as regards the gold mining industry in Wales that a Royal Commission is inquiring into the whole question of royalties. Great concessions have already been made, and a discussion on the matter before the Commission has reported would lead to no result. The moment the Commission has reported I will take up the matter. I could not deal with it until the Commission has reported, so I think it would scarcely be worth while to take up much time now in discussing it. I hope the Committee will now discuss the question of the quarries in Wales, so that we may be able to take the Scotch Votes first thing to-morrow. I shall keep my pledge, and not force the Estimates, but I make an earnest appeal to the Committee to allow us to take this and the following non-contentious Votes.

* : I cannot consent to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman that we should not ventilate our grievances in this House. We have now nearly arrived at the end of the Session, and no opportunity has been afforded to private Members to ventilate their grievances until this hour—after midnight. I shall occupy at least one hour in calling the attention of the Committee to the condition of the gold industry in Wales. I have determined, at whatever cost, to ventilate our grievance before the Committee. In 1888 the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised eight or ten Members of this House he would give the matter his consideration. A little while ago I sent him a round robin signed by 73 Members asking him to receive a deputation, but he has not had the courtesy even to reply. He promised on the Vote on Account he would give the matter his immediate attention.

* : May I interrupt the hon. Gentleman? So far has our attention been given to the matter that we have changed the scale and sent it to the lessee of the mine.

* : I regret to say I cannot withdraw from the position I have taken up. It is true the Government have changed the scale, but even the new scale is both monstrous and absurd. I intend to support the Motion to report Progress.

I regret I cannot respond to the appeal made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The matter I intend to raise is one of considerable interest to my constituents, inasmuch as the working of an important quarry is involved.

(12.42.) Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

Committee also report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

Supply—Report

Resolutions [15th July], (see page 1274) reported, and agreed to.

Redemption of Rent (Ireland) Bill.—(No. 377.)

Committee

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1.

I presume the Government will assent to the Amendment, which is merely formal.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 11, after "Commission" to insert "after an application in the prescribed manner."—( Mr. T. M. Healy. )

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 12, to leave out "renewal fines (if any)," and insert "circumstances of the case."—( Mr. T. M. Healy. )

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

I do not think there is any objection to introducing words which would bring in every circumstance material, but it would be a pity to leave out the words "renewal fines," which are very important. I suggest that the hon. and learned Gentleman's view would probably be adequately met if after the word "any" his words were added.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 12, after "any," to insert "and all the circumstances of the case."—( Mr. T. M. Healy. )

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

I presume the Government will assent to my next Amendment; and, acting on that assumption, I should like to ask if they have considered at all how the Land Commission is to ascertain whether there is a full agricultural rent or not? Of course, if they only look at the valuation and compare that with the rental, legal examination or anything of that kind would not be required, and it was with that view that I wished to leave out the words "renewal fines (if any)."

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 14, after "to," to insert "apply in the prescribed manner to "—( Mr. T. N. Healy. )

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

I have no objection to the Amendment, but I must point out that it would be impossible for the Government to assent to an amendment of the Bill which would allow these leases to be broken in cases where the full agricultural rent is not being charged.

I quite concur, and I think it would be very unjust if any such view were insisted upon. I think that in 1887 the Government stated that 20,000 leaseholders had applied. Even supposing 10,000 men apply, and say they hold at full agricultural rent, that would entail a very long inquiry, and, in the meantime, men would have to go on paying at the old rate. I assume the Land Commission in all these cases will have to hold some inquiry. I think the Government are imposing a condition which is very stringent, and will lead to a block in the system.

Question put, and agreed to.

The Government's view of this Bill is the one I desire to carry out in this Amendment, but I think without the Amendment a view foreign to the view of the Government will prevail. As I understand, the view of the Government is that when a tenant desires to redeem his rent or desires to have it ascertained whether injustice prevails, he should go to the Land Commission. If the Land Commission declares that he holds at a full agricultural rent, the man will go to the landlord and ask to be allowed to redeem. The landlord will then say "Yes" or "No." You provide that the tenant shall redeem his rent by paying such a capital sum as may be agreed upon; he would have to make an offer of a capital sum. That is not the view of the Government. Their view is that the tenant should put to the landlord the point, "Will you allow me to redeem or not? " and not be required to offer any capital sum. I therefore beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 14, after "rent," to insert—

"Whereupon, if the lessor or grantor, as the case may be, signifies his consent within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner, including consent to such sum being retained as guarantee deposit as the Land Commission may think necessary, then such redemption shall be effected."—( Mr. T. M. Healy. )

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

It will be necessary, under the Land Purchase Bill, to retain a guarantee deposit in every case of sale.

I submit that the position is wholly different in the case of redemption of rent and the case of land purchase. Land purchase is agreed upon by agreement. The landlord knows he is going to get four-fifths in land, and that another one-fifth is to remain out for 15 years. All the landlord has to do to block redemption is to say, "I will not allow my one-fifth to remain for 15 years; give me cash down." The landlord knows that if he did not agree to redemption the tenant would take him into Court and insist upon having a fair rent fixed. Accordingly, I submit this is absolutely necessary and—

It being One of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

And, it being after One of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.

House adjourned at one minute after One o'clock till to-morrow.