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Commons Chamber

Volume 1: debated on Friday 19 February 1892

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House Of Commons

Friday, 19th February, 1892.

Questions

Agricultural Produce By Parcels Post

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Central and Associated Chambers of Agriculture urging the desirableness of the provision of increased facilities by Parcels Post, so as to include the transmission of agricultural produce; and whether he is prepared to give effect to that view, so that the present high rates for the conveyance of small parcels of dairy and other farm produce may be reduced?

The proposal has received careful investigation, but I am not at present able to offer expectations of being able to assent to it.

Unpensioned Veterans Of The Crimean War And Indian Mutiny

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in accordance with his statement in July last, a list has been prepared of the most necessitous men among the unpensioned veterans of the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny; and whether the name of William Young, of Wolverton, Bucks, formerly of the 2nd and 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards, appears on that list?

My answer to the first paragraph in the question is—Yes; and to the second—No. The man referred to had not sufficient service to be eligible for the pension promised last year; but, as I have already stated, I am considering whether it will be possible to reduce the qualifying service.

Indian Factory Act Regulations

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India if he will obtain and lay upon the Table a Copy of the Regulations which were to be prepared by the Government of India relating to the Factory Act, which became Law in India on the 1st January last?

But will the hon. Gentleman say when will they be received? How long shall we have to wait for them?

Officers Of The Inland Revenue Department

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, before a reply is sent by the Treasury to the Petition of the Supervisors, Officers, and Assistants of Inland Revenue, presented in May last, he will be kind enough to grant a short interview to one representative of each of the three classes?

I regret that I am unable to comply with the request in the hon. Member's question. The Petition of the Excise Officers and the Report of the Board of Inland Revenue are before me, and I see no advantage in taking the very unusual course of granting an interview to any of the memorialists.

The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that within the limits of a memorial of reasonable size it is difficult to mention all the points and to make the representations that arise. If the right hon. Gentleman is unable to have an interview with the memorialists, will the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury appoint an interview?

No; I am afraid I cannot hold out any such hope. The proper course is for the officers to make their representations through the Heads of their Departments. It is impossible to arrange that this shall be done by personal interview with the Secretary.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that course has already been suggested in an answer from Somerset House? Sir Algernon West said the only remaining course was for the memorialists to ask for an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

No; I think that must be a mistake. The Board of Inland Revenue would not make such a suggestion. The hon. Gentleman must be labouring under some mistake.

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I was present when Sir Algernon West made the suggestion. If I can show the right hon. Gentleman that was so, will he agree to adopt that course?

No; not even if Sir Algernon West suggested that course. It is one that would embarrass all succeeding Governments. It is impossible that a Chancellor of the Exchequer could place himself in personal communication with all Civil servants who may think they have a grievance, or who wish to have their salaries raised.

The British Vice Consul In Paris

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the British Vice Consul in Paris acted as second in a duel fought in or near Paris last November; and, if so, whether any notice has been taken, or is intended to be taken, by Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in regard to the Vice Consul's conduct?

No information on the subject has been received at the Foreign Office; nor has any intimation reached the Secretary of State that any charge of such a character has been made against the gentleman referred to.

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to inquire whether such a charge can be supported, if I put him in possession of information that seems to leave no doubt on the subject?

I should like to point out to the hon. Member that at present there is no evidence that any offence punishable either by the law of this country or of France was committed.

I desire to point out—I desire to ask the hon. Gentleman whether, without reference to any offence having been committed, it is a fact that the Vice Consul did act as second in a duel?

I have already told the hon. Member we have not the shadow of a shade of evidence of any such thing having occurred.

If I put the hon. Gentleman in possession of evidence in relation to this matter, will inquiry be made?

If the hon. Member will forward such evidence the Secretary of State, no doubt, will consider it.

Theological Tests In Scotch Universities

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Scottish University Commissioners have, more than a year ago, taken all the evidence they think necessary on the subject of Theological Tests, on which they were directed, by the 18th section of the Act of 1889, to make a Special Report to Her Majesty; and whether, if this be so, it is the intention of the Commissioners to present that Special Report forthwith, considering that till it has been presented, and an opportunity given for legislation regarding Tests, the ordinances necessary for dealing with the Faculty of Divinity in the Universities cannot be proceeded with?

*

I am informed that the Commissioners closed the evidence on the subject referred to some time ago, and they hope to be in a position to present their Report to Her Majesty at an early date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Report is likely to be laid on the Table?

The Armagh Guardians And The Lower Bann Drainage

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the Armagh Board of Guardians have by resolution protested against taxing the ratepayers of the union for the drainage of the Lower Bann, and declaring that the taxation should be raised on the lands benefited, supplemented by a large Imperial grant; and whether it is his intention to take any action in the matter?

Quarter Sessions At Clougher, Tyrone

I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland if he is aware that at the January Quarter Sessions at Clougher, County Tyrone, during the hearing of the case of "Venables v. Peebles," the defendant occupied a seat on the Bench; that at the same Sessions 200 defended cases were tried in four hours, and that the solicitors were cautioned against cross-examining witnesses; and whether he will call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the matter?

The hon. Member appears to be under some misapprehension. The case of "Venables v. Peebles" was not heard at the January Sessions at Clougher, and at those Sessions some 25 or 30 cases were tried, not 200, as stated in the question. There does not appear to be anything to which the attention of the Lord Chancellor should be called.

Haulbowline Dock

I beg to ask the Representative of the Admiralty if the First Lord has received a resolution in reference to the Haulbowline Dock passed by the Town Commissioners of Queenstown on the 1st instant; and what attention he is prepared to give to the matter?

I presume the hon. Member refers to communications in favour of undertaking dockyard work at Haulbowline. The Board of Admiralty never intended that a dockyard should be established for building ships at Haulbowline. The dock has been constructed there with a view to the repair of ships in an emergency.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if half a million of money has been spent on the construction of a dock there, and for what purpose? Also, why ships are brought from Irish waters to English dockyards for their annual overhauling?

As I have said, the dock was constructed with a view to repairs on an emergency. It is true that a large sum was expended on its construction.

Yes; there are workshops which are capable of doing slight repairs, though, if serious repairs were contemplated, it would be necessary to make considerable additions to staff and machinery.

Lights In The Red Sea

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken for the rapid completion of the proper lighting of the Red Sea; whether the Turkish or Egyptian Government have a large surplus at their disposal from Red Sea light dues; and whether he is aware that, in the opinion of the most experienced captains of steamers, lights are urgently needed in the Red Sea on the island of Abu-Ail, on the island Gebel Teer, and also at Mocha?

I regret that considerable delay has arisen in the negotiations relating to this matter. It is due to the excessive demands of parties to whom the Sublime Porte had granted a concession for erecting lights on Ottoman territory, which includes the places mentioned in the question. The Egyptian Government have a considerable surplus from Red Sea light dues, and an arrangement has been come to, according to which, as soon as the new Customs Tariff comes into , the sum of £E40,000 will be set aside for the erection and maintenance of the additional lights required in the Red Sea and the Gulf f Aden. It is possible that the difficulty may be overcome by the selection of an alternative route to that hitherto followed. The matter is engaging the attention of the Foreign Office and of the Board of Trade.

Holywood Pier, County Down

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to Holywood Pier, County Down, whether he will state on what date the transfer of sale was completed, and the consideration for which the transfer was made; whether an undertaking was given by the purchasers that, on completion of the transfer, steps would be taken by them for its repair; and whether the plans of the proposed repairs have been lodged yet at the Harbour Office, Belfast, or if any steps have been taken to repair the pier and harbour works?

Holywood Pier has been transferred on several occasions since 1882, when the Provisional Order was obtained. I am not aware of the consideration for which any of these transfers were made, or of undertakings which may have accompanied them. In February, 1890, and again in April, 1891, I promised the hon. Member that whenever plans of new works at the pier were submitted to the Board of Trade the Belfast Harbour Commissioners would be consulted, and notice of the application given in the locality. No plans have yet been received, and the present owners have promised to do nothing without giving me notice.

Registry Of Deeds Office, Dublin

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the complaints frequently made as to the serious delay caused in making negative searches at the Registry of Deeds Office in Dublin; whether he will state the number of requisitions for negative searches at present lodged there and not yet complied with; how many of them have been lodged upwards of one month; and on what date the first requisition for a negative search still unattended to was lodged at the office?

The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the negative; the answer to the second is 93, of which 21 are in progress; the answer to the third is 15, of which there are now 13 in progress; and in answer to the last paragraph, 11th January, 1892.

Evicted Tenants And The Land Purchase Act

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolution of the Grand Jury at the late Fermoy Quarter Sessions, requesting Her Majesty's Government to extend the time named in the 13th clause of the Land Purchase Act of 1891 for arrangements with respect to the re-instatement of evicted tenants; whether he has also been made aware of the observations of the Recorder of Cork, to the effect that he concurred in the resolution of the Grand Jury, and that everybody would like to see the evicted tenants restored on equitable terms; and whether the Government will introduce a short Bill giving a reasonable extension of time for arrangements under the 13th clause?

My attention has been called to the resolutions referred to, and to the observations of the Recorder of Cork, and I have to say that if information comes to me that both the landlord and the former tenant desire to avail themselves of the pro- vision contained in Section 13 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, but find themselves precluded from so doing through the limited time in which that section was in operation, I shall consider as to the course to be taken.

The Congested Districts Board—County Roscommon

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether representations have been made to the Congested Districts Board from a very influential meeting in Castlerea, County Roscommon, in favour of including Castlerea and Loughglynn electoral divisions in the operation of the Act; whether any decision has yet been arrived at in the matter; and whether, in considering the representation made, due weight will be given to the fact that in the County of Roscommon a special sum of money, the Reproductive Loan Fund, has been placed at the disposal of the Board?

Yes; representations have been made to the Congested Districts Board which, I am informed, will be carefully considered, and all the circumstances, including those referred to in the question, will be taken into account.

The Uncovenanted Service Of India

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether he can state the proportions of Europeans, Eurasians, and Indians in the Covenanted and Uncovenanted Service of India, on 31st March, 1886, under the following headings:—Rs.1,000 per annum to less than Rs.2,500; Rs.2,500 per annum to less than Rs.5,000; Rs.5,000 per annum to less than Rs.10,000; Rs.10,000 per annum to less than Rs.20,000; Rs.20,000 per annum to less than Rs.30,000; Rs.30,000 per annum to less than Rs.40,000; Rs.40,000 per annum to less than Rs.50,000; Rs50,000 and upwards?

The figures are as follows:—Salaries of Rs.50,000 and upwards, 26 Europeans, one native; Rs.40,000 to Rs.50,000, 47 Europeans, three natives; Rs.30,000 to Rs.40,000, 125 Europeans; Rs. 20,000 to Rs.30,000, 346 Europeans, three Eurasians, two natives; Rs.10,000 to Rs.20,000, 951 Europeans, 12 Eurasians, 40 natives; Rs.5,000 to Rs.10,000, 2,078 Europeans, 111 Eurasians, 446 natives; Rs.2,500 to Rs. 5,000, 1,334 Europeans, 545 Eurasians, 1,647 natives; Rs.1,000 to Rs.2,500, 2,097 Europeans, 1,963 Eurasians, 6,915 natives. Total—7,004 Europeans, Eurasians, 9,054 natives.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for this very full information. May I further ask him whether it is not the fact that of all the Indian officials, both Covenanted and Uncovenanted Service, now on salaries of Rs.5,000 and upwards, there are 3,573 Europeans and 492 natives?

MR. CURZON : That is scarcely a question I can answer without notice.

Lagos Trade

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Government have any information as to the stoppage of the trade routes from Lagos to the interior; and, if so, what steps are being taken to remove these obstructions to legitimate trade caused by the hostile action of the native tribes?

An arrangement has lately been made with the Jebus, by which free passage for trade through their country has been secured, and the Papers on the subject will shortly be laid before Parliament. Information was received a few days ago by telegraph from the Governor that the road to Abeokuta had been closed. The Governor has been authorised by telegraph, in reply, to address a strong letter of remonstrance to the Egbas, informing them that if the roads are not opened the matter will be reported to Her Majesty's Government, who will decide what further action should be taken.

Pauper Relief, 1891

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state what was the total number of persons in England and Wales who were in receipt of relief at any time between 1st January, 1891, and 31st December, 1891; and whether he would consent to the Publication of annual Returns of the total number of paupers throughout the year, in addition to the Returns now presented of persons in receipt of relief on particular days of the year?

*

If the hon. Member will refer to the terms of the Return moved for on the 11th, I think he will find that the Return will include the information he desires. It is a Return which will take considerable labour to prepare, so I cannot vouch for it being laid on the Table at a very early date.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if, in addition, he can give the Returns for particular days in the year?

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I know that the hon. Gentleman desires that and other particulars, but to avoid delay we have to limit the information, and cannot embrace all the points upon which information may be desired. I am anxious that the Return shall be as correct as possible. I am considering that particular point. I sympathise with the object of the hon. Member, and, if I can manage, it shall be done.

*

Within certain limits. Of course, we could go on from age to age; but it would add enormously to the labour of preparing the Return, and increase delay. Looking at the interesting discussions going on lately, I think the House would desire to have, as soon as possible, the Return as referring to the particular age of 65.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in one of the Bills introduced this Session a provision is introduced that persons in receipt of relief for a certain number of years before 65 are not eligible for pensions? Therefore, the ages between 55 and 65 become important in reference to suggested legislation?

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If the Return were to be prepared so as to give all the information in reference to Bills introduced, I am afraid there would be a very great extension of the time and labour necessary in the preparation.

Fertilisers And Feeding Stuffs Bill

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture when he proposes to re-introduce the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill?

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I do not propose to reintroduce this Bill at present. The subject is so highly technical, and I found so many difficulties in the preparation of the Bill, and so many objections were taken to the measure prepared last Session, that I propose to arrange for the investigation of the subject by a Departmental Committee before introducing a further measure.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long this Committee will be occupied with the subject?

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It is impossible for me to express an opinion at present; but I shall be very glad to give the hon. Member any further information on that point as soon as it is in my power.

Training Of The Norfolk Militia

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is in contemplation to remove the annual training of the Norfolk regiments of Militia from Norwich this year; and whether, taking into consideration the fact that the Corporation of Norwich has supplied a site for the depôt barracks and suitable ground for training and exercise, he will, before coming to a decision, consider the great disappointment and loss which will be caused to the citizens of Norwich if the annual training is not allowed to take place there as usual?

Although it will be necessary that the 3rd Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment should have the same opportunity of being trained with one of its line battalions as other Militia regiments, there are reasons why I think it may this year be trained at Norwich. As regards the 4th Battalion, the men are largely drawn from Great Yarmouth, and the officer commanding considers that to train there will be beneficial to recruiting. This battalion is only occasionally trained at Norwich?

Royalties On Gold Mining

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the necessity of increasing the metallic reserves of the country, he has yet considered the question of reducing the royalties upon gold, so that the Crown may not take so large a proportion as two-thirds of the profits obtained from such a class of ore as gives 10 per cent. profit upon its production and treatment, as in the case of the Clonga and other Crown mines in Wales?

In reply to the hon. Member, I may refer him to my answer given yesterday as to the reduction made in royalties upon ore of low grade.

Mr Shallard, Late Writer In The Ordnance Department

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been directed to the case of Mr. Shallard, writer in the Ordnance Department, who was dismissed on the ground that he had uttered sentiments very unusual in a Government employé, and that he had come into contact with the police?

A writer of the name of Shallard was dismissed from the Ordnance Store Department at Woolwich for being absent without leave, with the intimation that an individual who had been convicted and fined for collision with the police was an undesirable person to employ in the Public Service. The case was brought to my notice, and I saw no reason to interfere with the action of the Local Authorities.

Commercial Treaty With Brazil

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the special advantages conferred by the Republic of Brazil in the duties which she levies on the cotton goods and other productions of the United States of Aerica, Her Majesty's Government is endeavouring to obtain similar advantages for the manufactures of the United Kingdom; and, if so, what is the present position of such negotiations?

Communications on the subject have been made to the Government Brazil, but up to the present time that Government has not been willing to enter into negotiations for a Commercial Treaty with this country.

Does my hon. Friend know whether similar arrangements to those with the United States have been made between European countries and Brazil?

Work At Woolwich Arsenal

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if there is any truth in the allegations as to extra night shifts having been recently employed at Woolwich Arsenal, and if, having regard to the apprehension excited thereby in the minds of private firms and their employés in the presence of an increasing slackness of work in the iron and steel trades, he will give directions that night work is not to be resorted to, or additions made to the Arsenal working staff, plant, or shops, without his personal authorisation?

No increase in the number of men necessarily employed on night shifts at Woolwich Arsenal has taken place. On the contrary, there has been a slight decrease quite recently. Except in cases of absolute necessity, I am altogether opposed to them. No night work or extensions of the ordnance factories are undertaken without the personal approval of the Financial Secretary or myself. As some idea appears to prevail that the ordnance factories are working at high pressure while the trade is suffering, I invite my hon. Friend to visit the Arsenal for himself, and to see what is going on. Every facility shall be afforded to him.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say, has there been any increase in the steel forges in the Department since he gave me the answer last year?

It would be better to give notice of these questions; but I have already said we have absolutely given up the manufacture of large steel forges, but we do employ small steel forges.

Employment Of Natives In The Indian Civil Service

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether it is true, as stated in the St. James's Gazette of 18th February, in an article entitled "India for the Indians," that in regard to the recruitment for the Provincial or Local Services in India, Lord Cross and his advisers have departed from the recommendations of the Public Service Commission; that the appointments which are now to be opened to the Provincial Services are to be strictly reserved for natives of India; and that not only a third of the Session Judgeships, but one-sixth also of the Collectorships will be filled by natives?

Will the hon. Gentleman permit me to ask him a question, of which I have given him private notice, whether the recommendation of the Public Service Commission referred to in the question of the hon. Baronet is that Indians and Europeans who have lived in India three years should be equally eligible for the Provincial Service; and whether Lord Cross in his despatch, 12th September, 1889, departs from that recommendation requiring that the appointments shall be filled in India; is it in the power of the Government to make such a change by executive order?

The question put by the hon. Member varies from that of which he has given me notice. I shall be glad if he will put a Notice on the Paper. In reply to the hon. Baronet, I have to say that information on the subject will be found in the Correspondence presented to Parliament in 1891.

Rifle Range At Newtownards

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has come to any decision with regard to the rifle range at Newtownards; and whether he is aware of the strong feeling in favour of its retention?

The lease under which the Newtownards range was held has expired. To have rendered that range safe for the Lee-Metford rifle would have entailed very great expense, and a suitable range has therefore been obtained elsewhere.

A Rifle Range At Portmarnock

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet considered the Memorial presented to him against the establishment of a rifle range and military camp at Portmarnock, in the County of Dublin; and, if so, whether he is prepared to state the conclusion at which he has arrived on the subject?

The question is still under my personal consideration. Perhaps the hon. Member will communicate with me in about a fortnight's time.

Crown Lands At Billingborough

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury what extent of land has been let in allotments upon the Crown lands at Billingborough, in the County of Lincoln, and what number of allotments have been granted exceeding a quarter of an acre, and exceeding half an acre up to one acre; and whether the statement is correct that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests have resolved not to let more than 30 acres for allotments in any one parish?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. There are 41 acres 2 roods 9 perches of the Crown estate at Billingborough let in allotments. There are 86 of them, few being less than a quarter of an acre, 57 exceeding quarter of an acre, and 12 exceeding half an acre. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.

Motions

Teachers' Registration Bill

On Motion of Mr. Arthur Acland, Bill to provide for the Registration of Teachers, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Arthur Acland, Mr. Sydney Buxton, and Mr. Hobhouse.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 178.]

Coroners' Act (1887) Amendment Bill

On Motion of Sir Walter Foster, Bill to amend "The Coroners' Act, 1887," ordered to be brought in by Sir Walter Foster, Mr. Addison, Mr. Roby, Mr. H. S. Wright, Mr. Samuel Evans, and Mr. John Kelly.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 179.]

Women County Councillors Bill

On Motion of Mr. James Stuart, Bill to enable Women to be elected to, and to serve on, County Councils, ordered to be brought in by Mr. James Stuart, Mr. Henry J. Wilson, and Mr. Channing.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 180.]

AGRICULTURAL TENANTS IMPROVEMENTS BILL.

On Motion of Mr. Seale-Hayne, Bill to compensate Agricultural Tenants for all Improvements, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Seale-Hayne, Mr. Cobb, Mr. Channing, Mr. Thomas Ellis, Sir Bernhard Samuelson, Mr. Halley Stewart, and Mr. George Lambert.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 181.]

Petition

The Opium Trade

I have to present a spontaneous Petition, signed by 22,000 inhabitants of India and Burmah, against the opium trade in India, and I request that the prayer of the Petitioners may be read by the Clerk at the Table. Petition presented, and read by the Clerk.

I beg to ask you, Mr. Speaker, can this Petition be placed on the Minutes of the House, and appear as part of our proceedings?