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Commons Chamber

Volume 23: debated on Thursday 12 April 1894

House of Commons

Thursday, April 12, 1894

Questions

Questions

Harewood End Magistrates' Clerk

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the Justices of the Petty Sessional Division of Hare-wood End, near Ross, in the County of Hereford, have recently appointed Mr. Arthur Blomfield Morling to be Justices' clerk for that division in place of Mr. Piddocke, solicitor, deceased; is he aware that Mr. A. B. Morling is not a solicitor of the Supreme Court, and will he inquire what were the special circumstances within the meaning of the Statute, 40 & 41 Vic, c. 43, s. 7, which justified the Bench in dispensing with the qualifications for the office of Justices' clerk usually required under that Statute; and whether he is aware that eight duly-qualified solicitors applied for the office?

:Yes; but I am informed by the Justices that the special circumstances which, in their opinion, rendered the appointment desirable were that Mr. Morling had for 15 years fulfilled the duties of the situation under the clerk to the Justices, to the entire satisfaction of the Bench.

Her Majesty's Minister at Peru

Sheffield, Central):I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Sir Charles Mansfield, Her Majesty's Minister in Peru, has yet recovered sufficiently from his accident to resume the charge of the British Legation, or is it still under Mr. Mallet, Her Majesty's Consul at Panama; and if Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind in the present crisis the vast interests Great Britain has at stake in that Republic, and the fact that the Peruvian Corporation took over the whole of the External Debt of Peru in exchange for the Railways?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
(Sir E. GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)

* :I am glad to say that Sir C. Mansfield has recovered from his accident, and has resumed charge of Her Majesty's Legation at Lima. Her Majesty's Government are aware of the important interests which British subjects have at stake in Peru, and are confident that they will receive every attention from Her Majesty's Representative.

Volunteer Officers' Decoration

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state whether a Volunteer officer, who may shortly receive the new decoration as a Volunteer of 20 years' service, will hereafter be able to receive the Volunteer officer's decoration on the completion of 20 years' service as a Volunteer officer?

* :The answer is in the affirmative.

The Canadian Tea Duties

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state what the intentions of the Canadian Government are with reference to the alteration of the Tea Duties; whether teas blended in bond in Great Britain will be subject to any and what duty in the new tariff; and whether the Canadian Government can legally differentiate against this country and home labour in favour of China and other tea-exporting countries?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES
(Mr. S. BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar)

:The Secretary of State has telegraphed to the Governor General of Canada for full information on the point, and if the hon. Member will repeat his question on Monday I hope then to be in a position to answer it fully.

Londonderry Barracks

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will direct that the statutory powers for compulsorily taking land be put into immediate operation, for the purpose of acquiring a site for the new Londonderry Barracks; and when may the building operations be expected to commence?

:Steps are being taken for the compulsory purchase of the necessary land; but the process requires some time for its completion. Very little building can take place till the additional land is acquired.

Tralee and Dingle Railway

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Government propose to take any steps for the relief of the cesspayers of West Kerry from the taxation brought upon them by the Tralee and Dingle Railway; and whether any proposal has been made for the reconstruction and further working of the line?

locus standi for making arrangements for the future working of the line. These are matters for the consideration of the Grand Jury of Kerry, and the Treasury has stated that such arrangements are an essential condition of the Government's assisting in any way the improvement of the line.

The Cavan Land Valuer

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Bomford, who is now acting as valuer for the Land Commission in County Cavan, was formerly agent to a large landlord in the county; that he is related to that landlord and to several other landlords in the county, and to Mr. Barnes, the principal valuer for the landlords in the county in fair rent cases; that he was formerly a member of a Sub-Commission in the county, and removed to another county on account of his close connection with the landed interest there; and whether these facts were known to Mr. Wrench and other members of the Commission when Mr. Bomford was sent as valuer to Cavan?

:I am in communication with the Land Commission on the subject of this question, and will thank my hon. and learned Friend to defer it until next week.

Irish Dispensary Committees

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will favourably consider the propriety of reducing the rateable qualification of co-opted members of Dispensary Committees in Ireland to the same figure to which he has already reduced the qualification of the elected Guardians of the Poor Law Boards?

:Under the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1851, sec. 7, elective members of the Dispensary Committees must be liable to pay rates in respect of property of the annual value of ÂŁ30 at least, and legislation will be necessary in order to alter this qualification. I certainly think it anomalous that the qualification of the elective members of a Committee should be fixed at ÂŁ30, while that of the Guardians, who are ex officio members, is only ÂŁ8, and I am in favour of legislation with a view to dealing with the matter.

The Bechuanaland Protectorate

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a recent resolution of the Afrikander Bund, asking that British Bechuanaland and the Bechuanaland Protectorate should be incorporated in Cape Colony; whether such incorporation would save the Imperial Exchequer ÂŁ100,000 a year; whether it has also been called for by residents in Bechuanaland other than the Border Police Force; and whether the Secretary of State will propose to meet the wishes of the Colony by facilitating the incorporation?

:The attention of the Secretary of State has been called to the resolution in question; but no action has been taken in regard to it.

The Dinder Charity Lands

:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that the Trustees of the Dinder Charity Lands, one-half of which come under the provisions of "The Allotments Act, 1882," after having avoided compliance with its provisions by only offering for allotments the portion of the property unsuitable for the purpose, were allowed by the Charity Commissioners without any previous public inquiry to dispose of the greater part of their property by private sale; and whether he can provide some method of controlling the discretion of the Charity Commissioners?

:Notice of their intention to let in allotments one-half of the Charity Land decribed in the questions as unsuitable for the purpose, was given by the Trustees in 1890, without eliciting any applications. In 1892 public notices of a proposed sale of the property were given by advertisement and the other usual modes in the locality. No objections were received, and no request was made for any public inquiry. In these circumstances, the sale was approved by the Commissioners in July of that year. The question of bringing the action of the Charity Commission more directly under the control of Parliament, and of giving it more effectual means of dealing with the business which will come before it, is now under the consideration of a Select Committee of this House.

Metropolitan Police Uniforms

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the propriety of supplying the police with lighter clothing during warm weather, as is done in provincial towns; and will he also consider the propriety of giving the police the money allowing them to supply themselves with boots?

:I must give my hon. Friend the same reply with regard to the first part of his question as I did in August last—namely, that the question has been frequently under consideration, and that it is the opinion of the Commissioner, after consultation with the chief surgeon of the police, that having regard to the variable nature of the Metropolitan climate, and to all the conditions of the case, it would not be advisable to provide the Metropolitan Police with light clothing during the summer months. With regard to the second part of the question, I understand the matter was carefully gone into in 1887, and the change was not considered advisable. There are difficulties in the way, but I am in consultation with the Commissioner on the subject.

Admiralty Cutlery Contracts

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if the cutlery and hardware purchased for Her Majesty's Fleet is examined prior to acceptance by competent experts skilled in the trade, and capable of telling Sheffield workmanship from foreign imitation?

:The officers who examine cutlery and hardware for the Fleet and compare them with the patterns are believed to be capable of detecting foreign imitations. Contracts are only entrusted to home manufacturers who make the goods themselves.

:In all these contracts is the Resolution of the House of the 9th February as to wages, &c, strictly observed?

Army Cutlery Contracts

:I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if the cutlery and hardware purchased for Her Majesty's Army is examined prior to acceptance by competent experts skilled in the trade, and capable of distinguishing good Sheffield work from foreign forgeries?

:Cutlery and hardware for Army services are inspected by artizan experts, who, it is believed, are as capable of distinguishing British from foreign manufacture as any men can be.

Irish Poor Law Finance

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he could state how many of the Irish Poor Law Unions are at present in a state of financial embarrassment; in how many Unions have Vice Guardians been appointed; and has he received a Memorial extensively signed by the ratepayers of the Tralee Union, praying him not to dismiss the Vice Guardians?

:I am informed by the Local Government Board that the accounts of Poor Law Unions in Ireland for the half-year ended March 25 last have not yet been audited, and that it is not, therefore, possible for them to say what Unions can be regarded as being in the position mentioned. There are no Unions in Ireland at the present time under the management of Vice Guardians. A Memorial was received last year by the Local Government Board asking that the services of the Vice Guardians of the Tralee Union might be retained. These gentlemen were continued in office till March last, and I am informed they could not legally retain their positions for a longer period.

:On the Estimates I will call attention to the management of Irish Poor Law Unions.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the Debate, consider the advisability of giving us a Return showing the financial position of Irish Poor Law Unions, that especially of Listowel Union, on which an attack was made the other day? Is it not the fact that the Listowel Guardians have at the present moment ÂŁ2,000 to their credit at the bank?

:As I put that question may I explain that it was directed at the system of outdoor relief, not at the financial position of the Union.

:I have not before me the details as to Listowel Union; but in answer to the general question of my hon. Friend, I think the request is a reasonable one, and I will see how it can be granted.

Mr. Robert Buckell, J.P

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the gentleman named Robert Buckell, who has recently been made a Justice of the Peace for the City of Oxford, is the same person as Robert Buckell whose name appears twice in the Schedules to the Report of the Oxford Election Commission, 1881, as having been guility of corrupt practices at the elections in that city in April and May, 1880; and whether he is aware that two Justices of the Peace for the City of Oxford were scheduled by the Commissioners for offences of the same nature as were proved against Mr. Buckell, and were forthwith removed from the bench by the then Lord Chancellor?

:It is the case that Mr. Buckell, who was recently made a Magistrate, was reported as having been quilty in 1880 of corrupt practices. Since thae time he has been twice in recent years elected Mayor of the city, and as such has acted as Chief Magistrate. His appointment appeared to the Lord Chancellor to be desirable on public grounds, unless the fact of his being scheduled was to be regarded as a bar to the appointment. Having regard to the length of time which has elapsed since the corrupt practices referred to, and to the public services since rendered by Mr. Buckell, and in view of all the circumstances of the case, the Lord Chancellor thought the appointment expedient. It is to be observed that the Corrupt Practices Act now in force renders a person convicted on indictment of a corrupt practice incapable of holding a judicial office only for a term of seven years. The question of appointing a person scheduled by Commissioners must, therefore, in each case be determined on a consideration of all the circumstances. As regards the last paragraph, the only record which the Lord Chancellor has is that two Justices were removed from the Commission of the Peace for the City of Oxford in August, 1881, at their own request.

:May I ask whether this gentleman was a Gladstonian candidate at the General Election?

:Is there any doubt whatever that the two gentlemen referred to were removed by the Lord Chancellor in consequence of having been scheduled for practices corresponding to those of which Mr. Buckell has been guilty; also was not Mr. Buckell a member of the Town Council at the time he was scheduled?

:Is it the rule to strike off the Commission the names of gentlemen directly they are scheduled, or to wait until they have been convicted on indictment?

:That is a question which cannot be answered without notice. It is not within my Department.

Fees on Magisterial Appointments

:I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that in certain counties in Scotland it is the custom for the Clerks of the Peace to demand a fee from each Justice on administration of the oath; and if this is a legal charge?

* :I believe that it is the custom for Clerks of the Peace to charge such a fee, in some counties at least; but, in regard to the legality of such a charge, I cannot add to what was stated by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland in answer to similar questions on July 28, December 12, and Tuesday last.

Raglan Barracks Sewage Outfall

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether steps have been taken by the War Department to obviate the pollution occasioned to the public bathing place at Devonport by the sewage outfall from the Raglan Barracks?

* :Provision for this service is made in the present Army Estimates, and the work will be commenced as soon as possible.

Dublin Union Precepts

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the form of precept annually issued by the Clerk of the Peace to the clerks of the Dublin Unions has this year been altered by striking out so much of paragraph 2 as related to objections to the names of inhabitant occupiers; and if he will 6tate by what authority, or under what circumstances, this alteration came to be made?

:The form of precept was amended by the Lord Lieutenant in Council, in pursuance of the powers given him by the Parliamentary Registration (Ireland) Act, 1885, Section 8. The amendment was considered necessary in order to draw the attention of the clerks of Unions and other officers to the rights of rated occupiers and householders who had occupied different premises of the requisite value in immediate succession during the 12 months preceding the 20th July in each year. In some of the forms hitherto used in Ireland—namely, in relation to the supplemental list of householders and in the form of precept for boroughs, there was no reference made to the rights acquired by occupation of premises in immediate succession. This omission appears to have led to injustice in the case of such classes of voters. In the corresponding English forms there had not been any such omission. The note at foot of amended form is in the same terms as in the form No. 1 in the Schedule to the Statute, directing the paragraphs as to the existing Register to be modified by making them apply, so far as regards the marginal additions "ob- jected" or "dead," to householders in the then existing Register.

Portadown Post Office

:I beg to ask the Postmaster General when it is proposed to commence the building of the new post office at Portadown?

:This is a matter which is under the control of the Board of Public Works in Ireland, and I am informed that no provision for building the new post office at Portadown has been made in the Estimates for the current financial year. Consequently, the work cannot be begun until next year.

Civil Service Second Division Clerks

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, in view of the fact that the annual increments of salary of Second Division clerks in the Civil Service are so regulated as to provide for those clerks reaching a certain maximum of ÂŁ190 per annum after 19 years' service, and of the fact that the annual increments of the new class of assistant clerks have been so regulated as to necessitate a service of 28 years before the attainment of the maximum of ÂŁ150 per annum, whether, having regard to the ages of the men constituting this class, he will consider the advisability of adjusting the annual increments of salary so as to enable these clerks to attain their maximum at an earlier period of life?

:As ÂŁ190 is far below the maximum salary of the Second Division, there is no parallel between the cases quoted. The scale of salary of assistant clerks or abstracters was fixed after careful consideration with reference to the nature of their duties, and I cannot see any reason for reconsidering it.

Sick Leave in the Civil Service

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any complaints have reached him of the insufficiency of the amount of sick leave on full pay allowed in any one year to the new class of assistant clerks—namely, six weeks less the amount of holiday leave which may already have been taken; and whether he has any objection to allowing responsible Heads of Departments to exercise discretionary powers in such cases within the limits of sick leave allowed to all other classes of clerks in the Civil Service?

:Two representations from assistant or supplementary clerks respecting sick leave have been transmitted to the Treasury. All officers so classed were formerly temporary copyists, who were as such entitled to a maximum absence of 28 working days for ordinary leave and sick leave combined. On the promotion of temporary copyists to abstracterships, supplementary or assistant clerkships, their maximum of absence has been increased from 28 to 36 days in Departments under the control of the Treasury, and this appears to me a reasonable arrangement.

Assistant Clerks in the Colonial and India Offices

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury under what circumstances and for what reasons were the initial salaries of assistant clerks in the Colonial and India Offices calculated on a different basis from those of other assistant clerks in other Offices whose status was in every respect identical with theirs; and what number of recommendations have been received by the Treasury from Heads of Departments for the promotion of meritorious assistant clerks to the Second Division, and how many of these recommendations have been acceded to?

:The organisation of the India Office is not subject to the Regulations governing the ordinary Civil Service, and is, therefore, not within my province. The case of the Colonial Office was an exceptional one, in that the action taken was the only means by which a desirable and economical reorganisation in one of their subordinate Departments could be effected. There is no ground for reopening the settlement in other Departments. As I stated last year, the Second Division is recruited by open competition, and it is not proposed to admit to it men who have only passed the rudimentary examination required of temporary copyists. Proposals for the appointment of assistant clerks to the Second Division have, therefore, not been entertained.

New Admiralty Buildings

:I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that all the large rooms on one side of the new Admiralty buildings on the ground, first, second, and third floors, which were specially designed as large rooms on the recommendation of a Committee of this House to promote the efficiency of the Public Service, have been made into small rooms as shown on the revised plans just put into the Tea Room; whether he can state how many small rooms have been substituted for large rooms, and who are to occupy these small rooms; what has been the cost of the alterations; why these alterations have been made without the authority of Parliament; and whether the Government propose to set aside the strong recommendation of the Committee which urged in the interests of the efficient conduct of the Public Service that in all future buildings for Public Offices arrangements should be made for the staff to work collectively in large rooms rather than singly in small rooms?

:The plans exhibited in the Tea Room show the changes that have been made on the first draft exhibited in 1888, and a comparison between the two sets of plans will show that (excluding the sub-ground floor, which is practically an addition since 1888) the number of rooms in the plans of 1888 was 112, as against 134 in the present plans—an increase of 22, or one in five. The appropriation of the various rooms can be indicated on the plans if desired. The cost of the change may be taken at £12,000. The change is one of executive detail, on which it would hardly be possible to refer to Parliament for authority. There is no intention on the part of the Government to set aside the recommendation of the Committee of 1887. The Admiralty is divided into 20 different departments, and the usefulness of large rooms is consequently restricted. It is in the accounting branch that the large rooms will be most serviceable, and they will be provided in the north block.

Clonmeen National Schools

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Canon Morrissey, P. P., Banteer, County Cork, complained to the Commissioners of Education in July, 1891, of the insanitary condition of the out-offices attached to the Clonmeen National Schools; that the Commissioners referred the matter to the Board of Works, who sent plans and specifications to the very reverend manager; that the latter objected to the plans on the ground that closets were to be erected on a site most objectionable from a sanitary point of view; and that the sanitary officer, Dr. O'Leary, condemned the proposed site as most objectionable and insanitary; and whether, in view of the fact that a large number of children are attending these schools, proper plans will be prepared so as to comply with the sanitary requirements of the place?

:The facts are substantially as stated in the first paragraph of the question. The site of the out-offices proposed by the Board of Works is 49 feet distant from the school. The proposal of the manager is to build two distinct out-offices, one 57 feet and the other 194 feet from the school; but the latter scheme would involve considerable additional expenditure on dividing walls to which the Board are unable to consent, having regard to the safe character of the site proposed by them. Pending the erection of new offices, the Board have given special directions for the cleaning and maintenance of those now in use.

Patent Fees

:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the total value of forfeited fees accruing to the Patent Office between the 1st July, 1852, and the 31st December, 1893, from the refusal of applications for patents, and from the voiding of patents by renewal fees and other causes before their full term; and will he also state the total number of applications for patents refused, the total number of patents voided under their full time, and the average lifetime of patents during the time named?

:The number of applications refused by the Law Officers between 1st July, 1852, and 31st December, 1883, cannot be given, no record of such refusals having been kept. The number refused by the Comptroller of Patents between 1st January, 1884, and 31st December, 1893, was only 146, and the value of the fees accruing to the Patent Office therefrom about ÂŁ500. The number of patents voided, at one stage or another, through non-payment of renewal fees between 1st July, 1852, and 31st December, 1893, was 121, 242, but no fees accrued to the Patent Office by reason of their expiry. The average life of a patent during the period named was about five years.

Richmond Lunatic Asylum, Dublin

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the want of proper accommodation for inmates at the Richmond Lunatic Asylum, Dublin, the public asylum for the City and County of Dublin and the Counties of Wicklow and Louth; if he is aware that the inmates number about 1,500, while there is proper accommodation for only 1,000; whether steps have been taken to acquire a site for an auxiliary asylum at Malahide, in the County of Dublin, and for the erection of the necessary buildings; and if he can state when the works will be commenced, and the present congested state of Richmond Asylum relieved?

:The reply to each of the first three paragraphs of the question of the hon. and learned Gentleman is in the affirmative. With regard to the concluding paragraph, I understand that the apportionment of the expenditure necessary for providing additional asylum accommodation at Malahide will come before a special meeting of the Privy Council convened for to-day. When a decision on this question shall have been arrived at, no unnecessary delay will take place in the commencement of the works.

:I wish to ask whether the proposed scheme will create any extra charge upon the County of Louth, and whether the Chief Secretary has received any complaints or remonstrances from the Grand Jury of the County of Wicklow, respecting the matter?

:The matter has been brought before my notice by both the Counties of Louth and Wicklow, and is receiving my most careful attention.

Orange Disturbances in County Antrim

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a report in The Irish News of the 6th instant, of a meeting of Presbyterian and Unitarian farmers, held in the Presbyterian Lecture Hall at Ballymore, County Antrim, on the 5th instant, from which it appears that two Orange bands paraded round the hall, and an Orange mob threw stones which smashed the windows of the hall during the meeting; that two ministers, the Rev. Mr. Armour and the Rev. Mr. Lyttle, were stoned as they left the meeting; and that the mob had so completely taken possession of Ballymore that an extra detachment of police had to be sent there from Larne; and whether he will make inquiry into the matter, and take steps in the future to protect Protestant farmers, in lawful meeting assembled in County Antrim, from such unprovoked attacks by Orange mobs?

:It appears that one band, and not two, accompanied by a crowd, paraded the village on the occasion referred to, and that four small panes of glass, valued at a couple of shillings, were broken in the lecture hall. The police state that neither of the clergymen named was stoned as alleged, and that it is not the fact that the crowd were at any time in possession of the village. Fearing that some disturbance might ensue on the breaking up of the meeting, the sergeant of police sent to Larne for assistance, but before the arrival of the men the crowd had dispersed and the meeting had broken up quietly.

:May I ask whether, as a fact, any Protestant meetings had been broken up at Ballymore at all; and whether the right hon. Gentleman will make any inquiries as to the truth of the statements of illusage made by the two rev. gentlemen? I wish also for information as to any statements the right hon. Gentleman has received from the police on the matter, and also whether any arrests have been made, and whether he will give the police any instructions as to their duty in making arrests?

:If the hon. Member has received any communication from persons assaulted, I will certainly cause inquiry to be made.

:I am sorry to intrude, but I hold a letter in my hand from one of the rev. gentlemen who was stoned. There can be no doubt as to the truth of the allegation, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will inquire into the matter.

:After being informed of the communication that has been received by the hon. Member from the rev. gentleman, I will have full inquiries made into the circumstances of the ease. I cannot, of course, give the police any special instructions to make arrests, which can be acted on by them generally.

:Am I correct in thinking that the mob marched through the streets throwing stones, and that the police have made no arrest?

:I cannot answer that question offhand, nor can I say whether the police have exceeded their duty on that occasion or otherwise.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any arrests have been made of the parties who stoned the Protestant preachers at Cork?

[No reply was given.]

The "Costa Rica Packet."

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Foreign Office has received an intimation from the Netherlands Government that they will not grant any compensation in the Costa Rica Packet case, either for the imprisonment of Captain Carpenter in 1891 or the detention of the ship and crew at Ternate; and whether he will lay the Papers in the case before the House?

* :The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative, but the decision of the Netherlands Government has not been accepted as final. A reply to it is now under consideration, and the Correspondence is, therefore, not ready to be laid before Parliament.

:Will the Government consider the propriety of suggesting arbitration in this case?

The Royal Commission on Secondary Education

:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the widespread dissatisfaction which has been aroused amongst proprietors of private schools owing to the entire exclusion from the Royal Commission upon Secondary Education of any representation whatsoever of the important interests with which they are associated; and whether the Government contemplate taking any steps towards rectifying the omission complained of?

:This question, as well as that of the representation of many other interests which desired to be represented, was very carefully considered before the Commission was appointed. I had hoped that the appointment of a member of the Council of the Girls' Public Day School Company, which is on the footing of a private enterprise, and of a Vice President of the College of Preceptors, which is so closely connected with many private schools, would have given satisfaction. The Commission is already a large one, and it is impossible to increase its size.

:I am sorry to press this matter, but I wish to know, in the interests of the Commission itself, whether it is probable that the reply of this Commission will meet with anything like public confidence when such a very large and influential body as the great mass of private teachers has been absolutely excluded from any representation on the Commission? I also desire to know whether it will not be better, considering the widespread feelings of dissatisfaction which have been expressed on this subject, to stretch a point and re-model the Commission in order to secure a more direct representation of the private schools? And I submit that such a step is not without precedent and that the new Commission will not require to sit for any very long period.

:I must demur to the use of the words "entire exclusion." I repeat that a Private Company, unassisted by the State and closely connected with girls' education in various parts of the country, is represented on the Commission. The number of interests represented on the Commission is already enormous, and under the circumstances the representation on behalf of private schools is as large as the Government are able to give.

:Is it not a fact that the Public Day Schools Company—of which I am a director—is not in any sense in the same capacity as a private adventure school?

:It pays 5 per cent. regularly, and receives no assistance from the State.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those persons most intimately connected with the interests of private schools distinctly repudiate any confidence in the present Commission?

* :Is it not the case that the Girls' Public Day School Company paid no dividend for some years after it was started?

:I have been a shareholder in that Company for some time, and I have always received some dividends.

Spencer Dock, Dublin

:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade is he aware of the fact that no provision is made at the Spencer Dock, Dublin, by the Midland Great Western Railway Company of Ireland for the reception of goods in course of transmission by the Royal Canal; whether, within the past five weeks or so, notices have been served on the boat-owners by the Railway Company, cautioning them not to store any goods in an old shed which had hitherto been used as a temporary shelter for the property of the traders; and whether he will take any steps to compel the Railway Company to provide suitable storage accommodation for the protection of goods going by the canal?

:I have communicated with the Railway Company, and they inform me that they

"Are not carriers on the Royal Canal, but only toll takers, and do not provide storage for by-traders, and are under no obligation to do so. Provision does exist, and is used, at Spencer Dock for forwarding and receiving goods transmitted by canal. A by-trader recently used without permission a shed which is required by the Company for railway purposes, and was requested not again to do so."

Sopley British School

:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he intends to give a grant to the British School, Sopley, near Ringwood, for the year just closing, as, in the event of no grant being given, the school will be closed at the end of the month, as notified to the Department by letter on the 9th of January, 1894?

:The annual inspection of this school does not take place till next month. Until it has been inspected, and the Inspector's Report considered, it is impossible to answer the hon. Member's question. Should the school be closed before it has been inspected, no grant can, of course, be paid, but I presume it will be kept open till the inspection.

Labourers' Cottages in the Strabane Union

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether after the rejection by the Strabane Board of Guardians of a scheme for the erection of labourers' cottages in the East Urney Electoral Division, the Local Government Board directed their Inspector, Mr. Kelly, to report on the state of the labourers' dwellings in that Division; (2)whether the Inspector made a house-to-house inspection of the dwellings of the men who had made the original application; (3) whether the Inspector condemned any, and, if so, how many of the houses in that Division as unfit for human habitation, and recommended the erection of new houses in their stead; (4) what length of time has now elapsed since the Local Government Board Inspector's Report was submitted to the Guardians, and whether they have given effect to it; and (5) whether the Local Government Board have any power in the matter to enforce the recommendations of their Inspector, and what they intend to do?

:The answer to Paragraphs 1 and 2 of this question is in the affirmative. (3.) The Inspector considered that 12 houses were unfit for human habitation, and recommended that a like number of new houses should be provided by the Guardians. (4.) The Report was communicated to the Guardians on the 18th December last, but the Guardians have not taken any steps to give effect to it. (5.) The Local Government Board have power to direct their Inspector under these circumstances to prepare and carry out a scheme for the erection of the labourers' cottages which he recommends, and the matter is now engaging my attention.

:Are the Nationalist or the Conservative Guardians in a majority in this Union?

Sentences on Indian Sessions Judges

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if his attention has been called to a decision of Justices O'Kenealy and Hill, in the Calcutta High Court last month, on appeal, reversing a sentence of death upon a young lad 10 years of age by the Sessions Judge of Bhagulpore, on the ground of defective evidence, the Judges in their judgment expressing surprise that simple facts appeared to have entirely escaped the Sessions Judge of Bhagulpore; if his attention has been directed to the strong comments of The Amrita Bazar Patrika, The Hindu, and other Indian newspapers, with regard to the frequent reversals on appeal by the various High Courts of decisions by Sessions Judges who have passed severe sentences of death and penal servitude for life—notably in the recent murder trials at Balladhun, Noakhali, and Benares; and if his attention has also been drawn to the almost universally hostile comments of the Indian Press on decisions by District Sessions Judges where Europeans have been charged with murder, especially in the recent trials known as the Dum-Dum, Fulta, and Guntakul cases; and if so, will he consider the desirability of appointing a small Commission of High Court Judges, or other experts in Indian Criminal Law, to inquire into and report upon the administration of Criminal Law in India?

* :I have no information with respect to the Bhagulpore case referred to in the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I am aware that there have been strong comments made upon the Balladhun case; and as I have already informed my hon. Friend, the fullest inquiry has been instituted. I have no reason to doubt my hon. Friend's statement as to articles which may have appeared with respect to the other two cases referred to in the second part of the question. With regard to the three cases to which he refers in the third part of his question, I must draw his attention to the fact that not one of these cases was tried by any Sessions Judge. The Dum-Dum case was tried before a Judge of the Calcutta High Court and a Calcutta jury in the first instance, but was ultimately adjudicated by a full Bench of the High Court, headed by the Chief Justice. The Fulta case was dismissed by the Chief Justice of Bengal. The Guntakul case was tried before the Chief Justice of Madras. In these circumstances, I see no necessity for appointing such a Commission as my hon. Friend has suggested.

:I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of bringing this matter under the notice of the House.

Assistant Superintendents in the Indian Police Force

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if an examination is ordered to be held in London some time in June next for the selection of seven candidates for appointment on probation as Assistant Superintendents in the Indian Police Force; and, if so, will he, in view of the embarrassed condition of Indian finance, cancel this Order, and instruct the examination of an equal number of Indians in their own country to fill these vacancies, getting the cost on a silver instead of a gold basis?

:An examination will be held in London in June next for the selection of seven Assistant Superintendents for the Indian Police. This Force is already mainly composed of natives of India, but the Government of India, on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission, decided that a proportion of the superintending staff should be recruited in England.

:Will the gentleman appointed be allowed compensation for the fall in exchange?

:Will the hon. Gentleman consider the equity of making such an allowance?

:I assume that these seven gentlemen will be placed on the same footing as other Assistant Superintendents.

Newspaper Postage in India

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if it is true that certain Anglo-Indian papers, e.g. The Englishman and the Pioneer, are not charged extra postage when exceeding 10 tolas in weight; that this exemption is specific with regard to these papers, and that Indian papers of equal or greater circulation are denied this exemption?

:I have no information on the subject of my hon. Friend's question beyond that which is given in the Indian Postal Guide. From this it appears that certain privileges are allowed to all newspapers on which the postage is prepaid according to regulations, an extra half-anna being charged when the weight exceeds 10 tolas.

:Will the Secretary of State make some inquiry? If he does, I think he will find that he is wrong and I am right.

:I have made inquiry, and communicated the result to my hon. Friend.

:The right hon. Gentleman has looked at the Postal Guide, but I do not gather he has made inquiry.

The Fulta Shooting Case

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if his attention has been called to a recent trial in Bengal, known as the Fulta shooting ease, in which a charge of murder against an Army surgeon was dismissed by the District Sessions Judge on the ground that the witnesses had committed perjury; and, if so, will he order that these witnesses shall be prosecuted?

:The Fulta case was not dismissed by a Sessions Judge, but by the Chief Justice of the High Court of Calcutta on the application of the prosecuting counsel. The prosecution, or otherwise, of the witnesses for perjury is a matter which may, in ray opinion, be safely left in the hands of the authorities in India.

London and Dublin Mail Service

:I beg to ask the Postmaster General when he will give notice to the present contractors for the mail service between London and Dublin that the present contract will be terminated in September, 1895, and when he will send out specifications for new contracts; and whether he will take care that the new contracts will provide that the whole journey shall be performed in two hours less than under the present arrangement; that the route shall be viâ Kingstown; and that the new boats shall be of sufficient draught of water to ensure the greatest possible stability as well as the requisite speed, bearing in mind the existing Treasury Minute, issued in 1855, that they shall be large and commodious, ensuring the greatest comfort, convenience, and speed, so as to keep up the service to the highest point of perfection which any improvements may render practicable?

* :This important subject is receiving most careful consideration, but I am not at present able to give the hon. Member any pledge in regard to it. I may, however, take this opportunity of pointing out that under any proposed scheme it would be impos- sible to provide for the whole journey between London and Dublin being performed in two hours less time than at present.

* :There appears to be an impression that an hour can be saved on the land journey and an hour on the sea passage. As a matter of fact, this mail train between London and Holy-head travels now at the rate of 43·12 miles an hour, a pace which, as compared with the Scotch and other mail trains, leaves very little scope for accelerating.

Mixed Trains Between Dublin and Drogheda

:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to his refusal to allow the Great Northern Railway Company of Ireland to run a mixed train from Drogheda and Balbriggan to Dublin, whether he will reconsider that refusal in view of the fact that a mixed train such as is now asked for was run for many years between the places mentioned without a single accident, that the Railway Company are willing to revert to the old arrangement, and that the public of Balbriggan and Drogheda are greatly inconvenienced without any compensating advantage by the action of the Board of Trade in compelling the abandonment of that arrangement?

:I have answered a similar question put to me by the hon. Member on a previous occasion. The Railway Regulation Act, 1889, entirely altered the position of affairs by imposing on the Board of Trade responsibility in the interest of public safety which did not exist before that date. I have under my consideration the difficult question of mixed trains on Irish railways, but I must impress upon the hon. Member that those who are interested in the locality should rather urge the Railway Company to afford necessary facilities than press the Board of Trade to assume the responsibility for a relaxation of their Rules.

* :Was not the prohibition of mixed trains intended to apply to England, where traffic was heavy and where accidents with them were numerous, and not for Ireland, where the traffic is light and the accidents are few? And are not mixed trains still allowed in Wales? Does not this decision augment the delay in railway communication?

:We are anxious to meet the wishes of any locality as far as possible, but I do not think it would be safe to withdraw this prohibition.

Allotments

:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, referring to his answer on the 12th of December last, he will now grant a Return of the number of allotments under one acre detached from cottages, in continuation of the Return obtained for the Board of Agriculture, and dated the 18th of July, 1890?

:I have been happy to give the suggestion of the hon. Member further consideration, and the conclusion at which I have arrived is that, although I should not be justified in asking the Treasury to provide the somewhat considerable sum which the preparation of the proposed Return entails during the present financial year, I might fairly do so when the Estimates for 1895 are under consideration. A full quinquennial period will then have elapsed since the last Return was made, which is of advantage from a statistical point of view, and we shall, I hope, be in a position to give the information in a somewhat improved form.

Extra Police in Wexford County

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland the number of extra police in the County Wexford at present?

:The extra force of the County Wexford at present consists of 18 men. The strength of this force was reduced by seven men in February last.

Return of New County Magistrates

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps to have presented the Return, ordered on the 12th of January, 1894, showing the County Magistrates appointed since the Resolution of this House of the 5th May, 1893?

:I am informed that the Return is ready so far as the names are concerned, but it has never been the practice to record in the Crown Office the occupations or addresses of the Magistrates appointed. The particulars have, therefore, to be extracted from a vast heap of correspondence. The Magistrates are often described as living in a district of considerable extent, which, though quite sufficient for the purpose of identification, can scarcely be said to be the address of the Magistrates which the Return requires. This necessitates inquiries in many counties for further information. The work is being pushed on as quickly as possible, and it is hoped that the Return may be laid on the Table by the end of the month.

:May I ask whether the Return will show, in the case of Magistrates appointed in Lancashire, whether they resided in the county or boroughs, and whether they are properly qualified by residence to act?

:That was not included in the scope of the Return as ordered by this House.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman give the best description he can of the addresses and the occupations?

Conversion of Martini Rifles

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether an order for the conversion of 27,000 Martini rifles has recently been placed at Enfield; if so, will he state when the jigs, gauges, cutters, and other special tools for the proposed conversion will be finished; whether a large number of the workmen are idle or only partially employed until these special tools are ready; and whether in future the War Office, when issuing orders to the Ordnance Factory, will consider the desirability of allowing time to get the necessary special tools ready for the piece-workers, so that they may not remain thus unemployed?

(who replied) said: The order for converting 27,000 Martini rifles into carbines has been placed at Enfield, and about six weeks will be occupied in the preparation of the gauges and special tools required. Changes of this kind, unfortunately, necessitate a temporary suspension of employment, but in this particular instance arrangements have been made by which other work will be found for the men now suspended or only partially employed.

:Yes, Sir. Of course, it is our desire to expedite the preparation of tools as much as possible, so that the men may not long be unemployed.

The Magazine Rifle

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether an order for 15,000 or 20,000 Lee-Metford magazine rifles, Mark 2, was recently placed at Sparkbrook; if so, will he state why the order was placed at Sparkbrook instead of at Enfield, seeing that the cost per rifle at Sparkbrook is 2s. 9Âľd. more than at Enfield?

(who replied) said: In answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough, I stated on Thursday last that 15,000 rifles required by the Admiralty during the current year had been allocated to Sparkbrook. The hon. Member himself was informed on Monday that the cost per rifle at either factory depends on the quantity produced, and that, while in the years ending March, 1891 and 1893, the cost of production was lowest at Enfield, in the intervening year the advantage was on the side of Sparkbrook.

* :Surely when the hon. Gentleman placed the order he could not have been aware that there was a difference in the cost in favour of Enfield of, roughly speaking, 3s. a rifle?

:Seeing that considerable pressure has been put on the Government by the right hon. Members for Bordesley and West Birmingham with respect to Sparkbrook, will the hon. Gentleman have any objection to grant a Return showing the relative cost of making these rifles at Sparkbrook and Enfield?

:The hon. Member will in due course of time find the relative cost in the Papers laid before the House.

Fog Signal on Mew Island

:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, considering the frequent complaints made by the masters of ships and steamers as to the insufficiency of the fog signal on Mew Island, at the entrance to Belfast Lough, where there is such a considerable amount of shipping, anything has yet been done with the view of meeting the requirements of the place; and whether telegraphic or telephonic communication has yet been established between Mew Island and Donaghadee?

:As already intimated in my reply to the hon. Member on the 14th of November last, the Commissioners of Irish Lights are engaged in experiments with the view to the improvement of fog sirens, including that at Mew Island. Since the date of that reply the Board of Trade have sanctioned further expenditure for improving the siren at Mew Island Lighthouse. Telegraphic or telephonic communication has not been established between Mew Island and Donaghadee.

Armenian Troubles

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to give any further information with regard to recent occurrences at Sivas and at Yuzgat; and whether, in view of widespread anxiety felt by the Armenians and their friends in the United Kingdom respecting the fate of the Armenian prisoners in Turkey who are awaiting trial, Her Majesty's Government will give an assurance that the forthcoming trials of Armenian Christians on charges of alleged sedition at Yuzgat and Sivas shall be attended by competent Consular officers?

* :Her Majesty's Government have been informed that there are a number of political prisoners at Sivas, who are being gradually brought to trial. Her Majesty's Chargé d' Affaires called the attention of the Grand Vizier two months ago to their long detention in prison. As regards Yuzgat, Her Majesty's Ambassador did not consider it expedient to send a Consular Officer to attend the sittings of the Special Commission there. But constant Reports are received from Her Majesty's Consul at Angora as to the proceedings. We are informed that the Vali and the Commissioners sent to investigate these disturbances released a number of prisoners on their arrival at Yuzgat, but that 17 Armenians had been condemned to various long terms of imprisonment for participation in the disturbances, and had been sent to Sinope. Her Majesty's Consul telegraphed on the 9th instant to Her Majesty's Embassy that 15 Armenians had been condemned to death by the Special Commission at Yuzgat, and that the sentences were being referred to Constantinople for confirmation. Her Majesty's Ambassador has, however, received an assurance from the Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs that these sentences will be carefully considered at Constantinople before authority is given to carry them out.

Home Produced Flour for the Troops

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will insert in the tender forms about to be issued for Ireland a similar clause to that inserted for the commissary batteries at Aldershot, Shorncliffe, &c, in England, that tenders would be only accepted from millers, thereby ensuring the supply of home manufactured flour?

* :The forms for the next contracts for flour in Ireland have already gone out, but the suggestion shall be considered for future occasions.

:Are we to understand the tenders in Ireland are different to those issued for England?

* :There is a certain form used in Ireland and a certain form in use in England, and as the forms have now gone out we cannot see our way to amend them this year.

The White Fathers of Uganda

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the Uganda Papers just issued contain no reference to the question of the compensation claimed by the White Fathers for the destruction of their property by Captain Lugard; whether the British Government admitted in principle to the French Government the right of these missionaries to compensation in event of the complaint they made being well founded; was Sir Gerald Portal or any officer charged with any instructions to inquire into the subject; if so, why are the Despatches silent thereon; do any further Despatches on this subject exist; and, if so, will they be circulated; and whether, as Sir Gerald Portal admits (page 16) that the Catholics were defeated by the troops of the Imperial British East Africa Company, and driven into Buddu, Her Majesty's Government have arrived at any conclusion as to the justice of the French missionaries' claim to compensation and the amount thereof?

* :Sir Gerald Portal's instructions contained no reference to the question of compensation claimed by the Catholic Fathers for the destruction of the property of their mission. His Despatches, therefore, do not deal with the subject, nor did he make any inquiry with regard to it. This question of compensation is now being discussed with the French Government in a friendly spirit, and I can, therefore, make no further statement about it at present.

:My question referred to instructions given to any officer, and not Sir G. Portal alone. Did Captain Williams have any instructions?

:We have received some information on the question of the claim, but it cannot be regarded as finally disposing of the questions either of fact or of principle. The Government, however, desire that a complaint of this kind should be dealt with in a generous spirit, and it is in that spirit that it is being discussed with the French Government.

Canada and the Behring Sea Arbitration Bill

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now lay before the House the actual terms in which the Agreement of the Canadian Government to the Behring Sea Arbitration Award Bill was conveyed; and whether any condition was attached by the Canadian Government to that Agreement regarding compensation to Canadian sealers?

:AS regards the first question, the Foreign Office will at the proper time decide what correspondence can be given. As regards the second question, the Canadian Government have attached considerable importance to the question of compensation for the illegal seizures made in past years. But in regard to this matter, the United States Government have intimated that as soon as the legislation for enforcing the Award has been completed they will be prepared to enter into a Convention with Her Majesty's Government providing for the assessment and settlement of the British claims. I would desire to add, in reference to this matter, that the answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman on Thursday last, in reply to a some what similar question, was misreported.

:Will the hon. Gentleman try and give me something like an answer to the last paragraph of the question? I wish to know if the Canadian Government attached any conditions as to compensation before entering into the Agreement?

:They attach considerable importance to the matter, which is now being carefully considered.

The Navy and the Public Press

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Article 682 of the Queen's Regulations, which forbids all persons belonging to the Fleet from writing for any newspaper on subjects connected with the Naval Service, or from publishing or causing to be published directly or indirectly in a newspaper or other periodical any matter or thing relating to the Public Service, is held to apply to the reading of papers at the United Service Institution; whether this Article is applied always and without exception to all persons belonging to the Fleet, or to some of such persons only and not to others; and, if so, on what grounds are exceptions made; and whether the Admiralty claim and exercise a dispensing power with regard to all the Articles of the Queen's Regulations, or with regard to some of them only; and, if so, with regard to which?

:The Article, if strictly interpreted, debars officers on full pay from lecturing on subjects connected with the Naval Service. While the Admiralty do not, as a general rule, sanction departures from the Regulations by those who are subject to them, applications to read papers at the United Service Institution are considered on their merits, and would be granted when, in the exercise of their discretion, the Admiralty are of opinion that such a relaxation of the Rule is for the advantage of the Public Service.

* :Is the right hon. Baronet aware of a statement made by the Admiralty that they could not sanction any departure from the Regulation?

:As I made the statement myself I am aware of it. I have just stated under what circumstances the Admiralty would allow, in the public interest, such papers to be read.

:Then does the right hon. Baronet appreciate the absolute contradiction between his two answers?

[No answer was given.]

Special Campaign Pensions

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the case of Peter Corcoran, who enlisted in the 56th Foot on the 17th of March, 1847, served in the trenches before Sebastopol, and assisted in the final assault and capture of the fortress, for which services he received medal and clasp; also served in India during the Sepoy Mutiny in 1860, when he lost his leg from the severity of the military service re-acting on his general health; is he aware that, though this man obtained the good-conduct badge, and was discharged with a good character, he was only allowed a pension of 9d. a day; that Corcoran is prevented by disablement and broken health from doing anything to supplement his pension by his own exertions; and that he is now living in absolute destitution in the County of Roscommon; and will he kindly again urge the matter on the favourable consideration of the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, with the view of obtaining for Corcoran one of the special campaign pensions for war service available for destitute men?

* :As I have already informed my hon. Friend by letter, the case of Peter Corcoran has been fully investigated by the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, who, I am sorry to say, find themselves unable to increase Corcoran's pension under the Warrant, in virtue of which it was granted. At the same time, the Rule which excludes a man who is already a pensioner from the grant of one of the special campaign pensions for Crimean and Indian service prevents him from obtaining relief in that direction.

:Is the special campaign pension, from which Corcoran was excluded, larger than the pension which he now receives?

* :If they were added together the result would undoubtedly be greater, and I should have been glad if some such result had been possible in this case. But special campaign pensions vary in amount. There is no particular limit put upon them.

Military Disturbances at Belfast

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the reported insubordination and riot which occurred in the Victoria Barracks, Belfast, on Saturday night; and whether he can state what was the cause of the riot, and what damage was done?

:It is the fact that in the rooms of one company of the Dorset Regiment some windows were broken. The circumstances are being inquired into, and I can only say that, so far as is at present known, the reports in the local news-papers are greatly exaggerated.

:Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to a report in The Irish News of an interview with an officer, according to which the account of the disturbances has been (grossly exaggerated; and can he say whether the relations between the soldiers and the townspeople are not excellent?

* :I have no information to contradict the last sentence in the hon. Member's question. It is a fact some windows were broken, and the report in the local news paper in that respect, at any rate, was exaggerated.

Mining Royalties and Wayleaves

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government have agreed to any scheme for giving immediate effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Mining Royalties and Wayleaves; if so, will he explain to the House the scheme which is proposed; and, if not, when will he be in a position to make a full statement on the question?

:I fear that it will be impossible for the Government, consistently with the claims of other business, to propose legislation on the subject of mining royalties and way-leaves during the present Session.

The Volunteer Officers' Decoration

:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether a distinction is to be made in the form of the decoration given to commissioned officers and that given to other members of the Volunteer Force for similar length of service; whether it has been usual to make this distinction between the different ranks in respect to war medals and the Victoria Cross; and for what reason a difference should be made in this case?

:There is a distinction between the decoration for officers and the new long service medal for Volunteers. The new distinction for long service will be neither a war medal nor a reward for valour, which are common to both officers and men; and it is no departure from the custom of the Service to confine a decoration to the officers' rank.

The Behring Sea Award Bill

* :I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the reported speech made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in the Dominion Senate, referring to an inquiry whether Canada has given an unconditional assent to the Behring Sea Agreement, and had not asked for any compensation, who stated that he was safe in saying that a large portion of the statement made by the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies was not strictly correct; and whether he is now aware of any such incorrectness?

:Yes, Sir; my attention has been drawn to the reported speech of the Minister of Trade and Commerce in regard to some answers I gave on Thursday last. The misunderstanding, I think, must have arisen from the fact that one of my answers was misreported. The hon. Member for King's Lynn asked me, as a supplementary question, whether the Dominion Government had not asked for compensation for the sealers seized. I am reported to have answered "No," which would have been incorrect; whereas what I really said was "Notice," meaning that notice of the question should be given. This correction appeared in The Times of the following day. As regards my other answers, they were, I believe, substantially correct.

:I stated, in reply to the hon. Member for King's Lynn, that the Canadian Government did attach considerable importance to the request for compensation.

:Does the compensation refer to damage done in previous years?

[No answer was given.]

The Education Code

:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, considering the short interval of Parliamentary time which has elapsed since the New Code was laid upon the Table, he will delay its withdrawal from the consideration of the House in order to give time for the expression of opinion upon the important matters raised in it?

:I understand that the interval is longer, and not shorter, than usual between the circulation of the Code and the expiration of the month during which it must lie on the Table. No action will be taken till the 1st of May in any case as regards the conditions for annual grants. I shall be happy to consider any particular objections which the hon. Member may wish to lay before me.

:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the addition to Article 73 of the Code requires that the staff is to be settled practically in accordance with the number on the books and not the average attendance, and that the staff is to be settled for each class in the school, and not for the school as a whole; whether the effect of these requirements will be, that in many large schools where the head teacher takes no class, but supervises generally the work of the school, he will no longer count upon the staff in practice; that no pupil teacher will be able to take a class of more than 34 on the Registers; that no certificated assistant will be allowed, unaided, to take a Standard I. if the number of children on the Registers of that standard exceeds 69; and if an untrained certified assistant is in sole charge of Standard T. the number of scholars on the Register must not exceed 57; whether the same Rule is to apply to infants' schools, and also to schools with a large proportion of half-time scholars; and whether, in not a few schools with large lower standards, it will be impossible, on account of the arrangement of the buildings, to organise the schools so as to have two classes in, say, Standard I. and Standard II. respectively?

:The addition to Article 73 is intended to be of the nature of a direction and not of a mandate or a condition of the grant. It is intended to point out the inexpediency of so organising a school that some classes in it are too large to be effectively taught. But I have under my consideration a modification of the Article, which, I think, will avoid the difficulties suggested by the hon. Member.

New Dock at Gibraltar

:I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have decided upon the site of the new dock at Gibraltar; and, if so, if he can inform the House which is the site chosen?

:The Admiralty are in communication with the War Office as to the early handing over of the New Mole Parade which has been selected as the site for the dock.

British Columbia Sealebs

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the date on which notification was published in British Columbia warning sealing schooners that Behring Sea might be closed for a portion of this year; and about how many sealing schooners had left port before and since that date in quest of seals?

:The Governor General has been asked as to the date by telegraph. I may add that the Award was given in August, and was matter of public notoriety, and the obligation of Her Majesty's Government to enforce it was equally well-known.

Minors and the Income Tax

:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue refuse to return Income Tax to minors whose income comes within the limits of exemption; and, is so, why?

:Income Tax deducted from income which has absolutely accrued to a minor, whose income is below the exemption line, can be reclaimed by his trustee or guardian. If the hon. Member has a special case in view I will make further inquiries, if he will furnish me with particulars.

The Welsh Disestablishment Bill

:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state on what day the Government intend to ask leave of the House to introduce their promised Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire?

:I cannot name a day at this moment, but I expect it will be an early day.

:May I ask whether the Government propose to disesablish and disendow any other Churches in the course of the present Session?

:Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether it would be before or after the Local Veto Bill?

[No answer was given.]

:May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is his intention to introduce the Welsh Disestablishment Bill before he proceeds with the remaining stages of the Budget?

:The remaining stages of the Budget are a matter for the future. My hon. Friend must allow me to get over the first fence.

The Crofters' Act, 1886

:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce during this month the promised Bill to amend the Crofters' Act of 1886?

said: The Government have promised a Bill extending; the benefits of the Crofters' Act to crofting leaseholders, and they will introduce the Bill after the Local Government Bill for Scotland has been introduced, as has already been stated in the House.

:Supposing the Scotch Local Government Bill is not brought forward at all this Session what will become of the Crofters' Bill?

[No answer was given.]

:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government propose to take steps to give effect to the verdict of this House definitely pronounced on the Resolution of the 3rd instant, which was in favour of a separate Legislature for Scotland; and if the Government is not prepared to take the usual course in this instance, will he explain on what grounds?

:I may point out that I have a similar question on the Paper, and I have postponed it on two previous occasions as an act of courtesy to the right hon. Gentleman. It surely is an extraordinary thing that the hon. Member for Inverness should now put his question before mine.

:I can give a very short answer to both these questions. The Government do not intend to bring forward such a Bill.

asked whether the Government would not consider by next Session the expediency of bringing forward a scheme of concurrent Home Rule?

Cavan Rent Appeals

:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that many of the cases coming before the Commission, recently hearing fair rents appeals in County Cavan, were appeals brought by local landlords from whom Mr. Wrench, one of the Commissioners, formerly acted as agent; whether it has been brought to his notice that, in the case of Timothy Boland, of Belturbet, a tenant on the Lanesborough estate, the rent fixed by the Commission was 22 per cent. higher than the old rent, though the tenant, on purchasing in 1888 the interest of the former tenant and paying to Lord Lanesborough 3½ years' rent then due, received an undertaking from the agent that the rent would not be raised; and who were the Commissioners adjudicating in this case?

:The Land Commissioners report that no sitting for fair rent appeals in County Cavan has been held since June, 1893, and Mr. Wrench informs me that he has never taken part, directly or indirectly, in any appeal coming from Lord Lanesborough, or from any other landlord for whom he formerly acted as agent. In the case of Timothy Boland, it is the fact that the Commissioners, after hearing all the evidence, fixed his rent at ÂŁ37, the old rent having been ÂŁ30. Inquiry is being made relative to the statement as to the alleged undertaking referred to. The Commissioners who adjudicated in Boland's case were Mr. Justice Bewley and Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald.

The Rio De Janeiro Explosion

:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any compensation will be paid to the relatives of Boatswain Harris, who was killed by the explosion at Rio de Janeiro last November?

* :The widow has been awarded a special pension of ÂŁ30 a year, and each of the two children special compassionate allowance of ÂŁ8 a year.

The Minister at Guatemala

:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Her Majesty's Minister in Guatemala has yet personally presented his letters of credence to the adjacent Republics of Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and Honduras; and, in the contrary case, if he will be instructed to do so without further delay, and to give all assistance he possibly can to British commerce in those countries, having regard to the rapid mercantile advance made of late by Germany in Central America to the detriment of Great Britain?

* :Her Majesty's Minister in Guatemala has not personally presented his letters of credence to the Governments of the Republics of Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and Honduras, and a telegram has recently been received from him announcing that, owing to the war between Nicaragua and Honduras, the present moment would not be opportune for doing so. He has standing instructions to give every possible assistance to British commerce in those countries.

The Uganda Papers

:May I ask how it is that, although the Papers on Uganda were delivered to the Press on Tuesday evening, they did not come into the hands of hon. Members until this morning? I wish to know what is the reason of the delay in delivering them to hon. Members?

* :I think there must be some misapprehension. The Papers were in the House on Tuesday afternoon.

Sir G. BADEN-POWELL and Mr. TOMLINSON both stated that they had only received the Papers that morning.

* :I regret the delay that has taken place in the matter, and will undertake to make inquiry with regard to it.

The Order of Business

:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what business will be taken to-morrow?

:In consequence of matters having been somewhat delayed, the order of Business is a little changed from what was originally intended. We propose at the Morning Sitting to-morrow to introduce the Registration Bill. Monday is already set apart for the Budget. On Tuesday we shall proceed with the Motion for the appointment of a Scotch Grand Committee. On Thursday we propose to take the Evicted Tenants Bill, and Friday morning we have set apart for a discussion with regard to Uganda, for which purpose a Vote for Uganda will be set down for the purpose of enabling i a discussion upon the subject to be raised.

Uganda

:The statement I have to make to the House on the part of the Government with regard to Uganda is as follows: While I make this statement now, I hope that any discussion on it will be postponed until tomorrow week, when the Government will make a fuller statement on the subject. After considering the late Sir G. Portal's Report, and weighing the consequences of withdrawal from Uganda, on the one hand, and, on the other, of maintaining British interests there, Her Majesty's Government have determined to establish a regular administration, and for that purpose to declare Uganda to be under a British protectorate. The details of the arrangements to be made are under consideration. I hope any discussion will be postponed till Friday, when the Government will make a fuller statement.

:When the right hon. Gentleman speaks of the arrangements for the administration of Uganda, can he say how far Uganda is supposed to extend?

:I must ask my right hon. Friend to postpone the question until Friday, when these details will be gone into. Of course, all these matters involve arrangement with the existing Company, and so forth.

The Equalisation of Rates (London) Bill

:In view of my promise to give due notice when it will be taken I should not feel justified in bringing it on to-night.

:I cannot make any further promise. I shall bring the Bill on whenever I have an opportunity.

The Depression in Agriculture

:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will name an early day for the consideration of the existing depression in agriculture?

:As I said the other night, I should be extremely happy if any opportunity could be given for discussion on a matter of this kind; but I am sorry to say that at present the Government are not able to name any day for it.

Motion

Railway and Canal Traffic Bill

Motion for Leave

case; that was to say, that if there had been any loss or damage sustained by a trader, the Act would be retrospective, and the Company liable to pay for such loss or damage. He was told that there were many thousands of accounts in the railway books still unsettled awaiting the decision of the House on this point. There was another Bill to be introduced dealing with other questions which had been discussed before the Committee, and upon which that body had reported. Having regard to the urgency of the matter, both as affecting traders and agriculturists, and all trading sections of the community, he suggested that the present Bill should be sent to a Grand Committee as soon as possible after its Second Reading, to be considered with the other Bill, which, he understood, would be introduced with the sanction of both sides of the House, dealing with the questions not included in the present Bill, in order that they might be jointly considered. When that had been done, he hoped they might be able to produce a good and workable Bill, which would give reasonable satisfaction to all parts of the House.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888."—( Mr. Mundella. )

said, he did not rise to offer any opposition to the introduction of the Bill, but, acting on behalf of a very large number of traders and agriculturists in the country—

* :I did not catch the opening words of the hon. Baronet, but I understood him to say that he does not oppose the Bill.

* :I am bound to hear now a speech against the Bill, under the Standing Orders, and not in support of it.

said, he wished to know how the right hon. Gentleman could secure the Second Reading of the other Bill that he had referred to in time for it to go to the same Committee? Would he put it down as a Government Order?

:I cannot put it down as a Government Order, but I shall be happy to use my influence with hon. Members on both sides of the House to have it read a second time, and referred to the Committee, and considered with the Government Bill.

Motion agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Mundella, Mr. Burt, and Mr. Shaw-Lefevre.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 156.]

Orders of the Day

Supply—Committee

SUPPLY,—considered in Committee

(In the Committee.)

Navy Estimates, 1894–5

1. £1,771,800, Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.— Personnel.

:When the remarks I was addressing to the Committee the other evening were arrested by the stroke of the clock I was speaking under the influence of my sympathy with Boards of Admiralty in the extraordinary difficulty which they invariably experience in securing even a fairly general approval of the ships which they construct. Let me recall in a few words to the Committee the point at which the Debate had arrived. We have before us a programme of which we are not quite aware what the dimensions may be, but we assume it to be—and I think my noble Friend the ex-First Lord of the Admiralty will be able to prove it to be—a programme which will cost £20,000,000. We have completed a programme which has amounted to more than £20,000,000, and the taxpayers must feel that experts, both naval and professional, doubt whether we have got in the past, or will secure in the future, the value for our money. Doubts are expressed as to the whole of the administration under which the construction of ships takes place, and under which the designs for ships are approved of and carried out. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holderness addressed himself with great ability to the question, but I am anxious that it should be thoroughly understood outside the House as well as in it that it is not a question of official opinion as against unofficial opinion, but that official opinion endeavours to support itself by every possible means by outside authority. If an attempt were made to call together a Committee every two or three years, or on every occasion when a new programme was to be carried out, I have little doubt from experience of the past that there would be discussions, and that we should not be able to get naval opinion to agree with unanimity on anything. I believe that to be as true as that two sides of a triangle are greater than the third. In naval matters two-thirds of naval and professional opinion would be against the design of the remaining third. I believe that if you were to take the Member for North Belfast (Sir E. Harland), as a distinguished naval shipbuilder, the hon. Member for Cardiff (Sir E. J. Reed), as an eminent naval constructor, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holderness (Commander Bethell), and the gallant Admiral below the Gangway (Admiral Field)—

:Well, or any other distinguished Admiral. If we were to put them all four together in a room and declare that they must come to a decision as to shipbuilding designs, I believe that every one of the hon. Members would prepare a different Report. Lamentable as this may be, and calculated to shake the confidence of the public in regard to the designs of our ships, it is, at all events, comforting to reflect that in the past the ships which have proved to be the most successful have been the most attacked when they were constructed. I was about to say the other night when the clock struck that there was no point connected with my administrative experience which had given me such great anxiety as the question whether the Devastation was a safe and proper fighting ship. On the one hand, it was said that the Devastation was to be the fighting ship of the future. There was a dissentient Report, but that was the decision of half the naval officers. On the other hand, the other half of the naval officers declared that if she went to sea I should be guilty of manslaughter if disaster followed, whilst others declared that if she were not sent to sea we should sacrifice our naval supremacy. At that time there was some great Russian ship which was supposed to be stronger than any of ours, and it was declared that unless we proceeded in shipbuilding in that direction we should forfeit our naval supremacy. On that occasion, at all events, science was proved to be right; the experienced advisers of the Admiralty were justified by the conduct of the Devastation at sea; and those who had prophesied disaster were proved to be in the wrong. In regard to the length of our ships, it may be interesting to the Committee to be reminded that, when I came into Office 22years ago, I found at the Admiralty a Minute from a distinguished Admiral stating that three ships—the Agincourt, the Minotaur, and the Northumberland —were so' long that they would break their backs, and that on that account it was dangerous to send them to sea. These prophecies have been falsified, and the ships have been proved to be safe; and the result is, that public opinion, supported by scientific opinion, has gone in the direction of longer ships. At that time I remember the hon. Member for Cardiff received many compliments on the fact that the Bellerophon was a very short ship, and that it could be handled with great convenience by naval officers. Thus public opinion fluctuates from time to time. The recalling of these incidents may perhaps lessen the alarm that might follow from the dicta of most distinguished naval officers with reference to the ships now being constructed. There is always this tendency to apprehend danger.

:That is scarcely a fair interruption. I am not pretending that no mistakes have been made; and I do not know how far the mistakes said to have been made in the Victoria were responsible for her going down; that seems to me to be still an open question. I was going to point out that when the hon. Member for Cardiff was one of the naval advisers of the Admiralty he was attacked as all naval constructors are; but when he ceased to have an official position, and became a Member of this House, then for the first time his authority was recognised and hon. Members hung upon his lips as expounding the policy of scientific shipbuilding. I am glad to say that, while many criticisms have been made, it is admitted that in Mr. White the Admiralty have secured one of the most distinguished of naval architects. The Admiralty have been most fortunate in having secured in succession the services of three such naval architects as the hon. Member for Cardiff, Sir N. Barnaby, and Mr. White; and it is a little hard upon officials that, because they are officials, it should be considered that they are not equal in breadth of view or receptiveness of new ideas with their competitors outside the official ranks. The hon. Member for North Belfast spoke of the Resolution, and said had there been bestowed upon her construction as much intelligence as is bestowed upon the construction of the smallest merchant ship other results would have followed. That is a most exaggerated statement, because the construction of a ship like the Resolution calls for an amount of knowledge, scientific attainment, and capacity for which there is no demand in the case of a merchant ship; and to that extent there is no comparison between the two undertakings. Having once presided at the Admiralty the Committee will excuse me if I say that the word "officials" is applied to our naval advisers as if they were clerks, whereas they fill positions for which only men of the highest capacity are chosen. The hon. Member for Holderness spoke as if it were official action at the Admiralty that had delayed the adoption of breech-loading muzzle guns; but what was supposed to be the official action of the Admiralty was in great part due to the individual influence of Admiral Hood, who had studied the ordnance question as few others had done, and to the fact that the Ordnance Committee had the greatest difficulty in arriving unanimously at a satisfactory conclusion. In like manner various schools of fighting officers and scientific officers have held the most diverse views with regard to most difficult questions of construction, and on this ground justice ought to be done to the architects of our warships, who must have all the qualities that are called for in the construction of merchant ships, and must combine many other practical qualities with them. The hon. Member for Belfast spoke of experiments being tried by the Admiralty to determine certain problems. Well, mo doubt, if there are novelties, and it be possible to test those novelties by experiment, it is the duty of the Admi- ralty to do so, but I think it would be rather a strong experiment to ram some old hulk, as my hon. Friend suggested, for the purpose of seeing the effect not upon the hulk, but upon the ship that rammed. About 22 years ago there was a scientific controversy with regard to turret ships; it was held by artillery officers that turrets would jam, and that, therefore, we ought not to spend hundreds of thousands on turret ships. It was, therefore, resolved that an experiment should be made; and it was a costly experiment. The Glatton was struck by the Rupert at the precise point indicated, and the result was the turret did not jam, but triumphed over artillery. As to ramming, unfortunately, we had too many examples of the effect upon the ships rammed; but the hon. Member for Belfast is anxious about the effect on the vessel which rams; and I understand the hon. Member for Cardiff to say that it would be impossible to make a satisfactory experiment. Wherever there is a controversy that can be decided and brought to a fair conclusion by experiment, although it may involve considerable cost, I think the Admiralty would be wise to make it; but in saying that I must not be understood to imply that the particular experiment advocated is a possible one, although the hon. Member would scarcely suggest it if there were not something to be said in its favour. Coming to the class of ships to be built, I confess it is appalling to hear of the havoc that rams and torpedoes may make in our actions—to think that £800,000 may be sunk and so many men's lives lost from the explosion of a torpedo or the blow of a ram. When the sinking of a Victoria may involve the loss of so large a proportion as l–25th of our whole fighting force, we have got to an extremely dangerous position in this respect if you must concentrate so much upon these very large ships. Still, if naval officers and naval architects say that so long as other countries build large ships we must do the same, I bow to the argument. But the public will not be reconciled to the conclusion that, because we have such large ships, we must have fewer. We may through accident, by the explosion of a torpedo or the blow of a ram, as easily lose a large ship as a small one; and accordingly, while we look at the aggregate expense, we are bound also to look at the total number of our ships. We cannot lose sight of the value of second-class ships, or even of ships which are condemned as almost useless, because some day, if we were unfortunately involved in war, so many of the first line of battleships might be disabled that victory would rest with the Power that had the largest number of second-class battleships, and even third-class battleships. I always regret that ships like the Monarch and the Hercules should in some quarters be so much abused. The day may come when, in consequence of the destruction of the more valuable ships which we are now constructing, we shall find in the hour of danger that we have an enormous reserve strength in these second-class ships. We ought, therefore, not to leave them out of account too much, nor to let them fall too much out of repair. I state all this with a full consciousness that, however much attention one may have given to these matters, to all these problems as to the constitution of our Fleet, no one ought to give anything approaching a dogmatic opinion upon them. As to the proposals of the Government, I wish we knew something more about them. We know the number of line-of-battleships which are to be built this year, and we know that there is more behind; but we have not got the five years programme of Her Majesty's present advisers, and we cannot tell, therefore, what our naval strength will ultimately be. We must rely upon the Government and their advisers; at the same time, I think that Parliament has never been asked to give so large a discretion to an Administration as we are asked to give now. I promised at the beginning of my speech that I would avoid all controversial questions as far possible; but there is one matter to which I am bound to allude. The late Government embodied their programme in an Act of Parliament. The present Government have followed the old course, or rather a course between the old and the new. The old course was merely to state the views of the Government for the year. We proceeded upon the lines of having a recognised programme embodied in an Act of Parliament, and so surrounded by safeguards that we hoped it would be possible to carry it out in its entirety in the period and at the cost which we assigned to it. The present Government take a different view. The most disputed point of our naval defence programme was the spreading of the annuity over a larger number of years than were included in the period during which construction was to take place. That was the main point on which we were attacked. But let the Committee understand that the system of annuities extending beyond the time for which the programme was constructed was not at all of the essence of the Naval Defence Act. It would be possible to construct an Act on exactly the same principles, but which should differ in this—that the annuity should close with the period during which construction took place. The Secretary to the Admiralty referred with moderation to the fact that two of these annuities still remain due, and that the present Government have to meet them. But the point was put rather offensively, if I may say so, by the Home Secretary the other day. The right hon. Gentleman said that we had attempted to conceal the matter, and that we had left our successors to pay what we ought to have paid ourselves. The right hon. Gentleman said he would not call such a policy dishonest, but it was unsound. Well, I will not say the right hon. Gentleman's charge is dishonest, but it is very disingenuous. The charge of concealment is preposterous. It was first made by the President of the Local Government Board, who thought that, because part of the cost had been placed on the Consolidated Fund and part on the Estimates, we were ashamed of our programme. There never was a more foolish view, with all courtesy, because we took credit at the time for the expenditure, and never concealed it for a moment. I hope now that we have heard the last of this charge. I had a correspondence with the late Prime Minister on the subject, and practically he withdrew the charge, and I expect that now the matter is only kept alive by certain guide books for electors. Politicians find the point mentioned in these books, and so it is resuscitated. Now I come to a much more important point—namely, the spreading of the annuities over two years beyond the time. Hon. Members opposite have forgotten two points. One is that the taxpayer at the first paid £1,400,000 almost before any appreciable expenditure had been incurred. We took that burden upon us, and if we had then gone out of Office the advantage would have been reaped by the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. We imposed taxes concurrently with the imposition of the annuity. We imposed the Estate Duty and the additional 3d. on beer. We faced the fact that if we imposed this annuity we ought also to impose additional taxation, and that taxation continues, and the present Government derive advantage from it. If, therefore, we imposed this annuity we did not impose a burden on our successors. But I will be quite frank to the Committee. The Secretary to the Admiralty has said that he is sure that if I had known that our naval defence programme was not to be an exceptional effort, I should not have taken the particular financial step which I did take. I think he is right. I admit that we did consider it to be an exceptional effort; we were wrong. At that time no one thought that it would be necessary to made additional proposals like those now made, and I make a present to my opponents of this statement—that if we had foreseen the final result, we should not have taken the particular financial steps which we did take. But I consider that the immense benefits which have been derived from the naval programme in the last five years are sufficient to compensate for any laches which the public might think we had committed in the Naval Defence Act. I do not think that the fact that we have added to the strength of the Navy as we have done will be condemned by the public at large. I am extremely sorry it has been necessary to go into the matter at all, and I think we ought to put an end to these old controversies and carry out our policy without reference to the politics of the particular Administration which initiated it. What I want to contrast now is what are the advantages of a Naval Defence Bill, apart from the question of annuities, with the system which Her Majesty's Government have placed before us. What are the advantages of putting the whole naval programme into a Bill? In the first place, there is the question of speed. It has been recognised that ships have never before been built with such rapidity as they have been under our system; but I will not dwell upon the question of speed, for I admit that speed can be achieved under the ordinary method, although not with so much certainty. What we aimed at, and what we considered to be the enormous administrative advantage we gained under our Defence Act, was securing the programme against changes in the progress of execution. The risks of change come from three different directions. They may come from the professional man, from the politician, or from financial difficulties. Against all these three we guarded in the programme we carried out. There has been a little modification, but only a small one, and if hon. Members only knew how difficult it is in the Admiralty to prevent changes in the construction of ships, I think they would agree with me. Sometimes they are little changes, sometimes very important—changes which may be improvements, but which are not improvements if compared with throwing out of gear the general construction of the ships. Take a programme open to change and not embodied in an Act of Parliament, a new Board of Admiralty may come in looking to different principles to those on which their predecessors acted. They do not approve the ways of their predecessors. They think that certain changes ought to be made. I am sure all those who have had any experience at the Admiralty will confirm that view. I am sure that the hon. Member for Cardiff has experienced great pressure from naval officers, who begged him to make this or that change, and have given him much advice with regard to the construction of the ships which they might have to command. If these changes are made, there is a diversion of time. But it is not only with regard to changes in construction that professional officers desire to make changes. They may think that progress in construction should not be so rapid as originally laid down, but, on the contrary, that a greater portion of the money should be spent on repairs. It has been the experience of one Admiralty Board after another that it requires an extremely strong hand to prevent the diversion of money intended for contraction to repairs. Now, if the public think it is better to leave that discretion, then I can understand their preferring the plan of Her Majesty's Government; but I warn them that they will not have that security that the programme will be carried out which has been shown on the present occasion to be the result of an Act such as we passed. Again, there is the question of political change. It is possible that every succeeding Ministry may take the same view of the needs of the Navy, and it is possible that the convictions that have been carried to the country and this House at one time may last during the execution of the whole of the naval programme; but, for my part, I should like some guarantee that the programme will be carried out, whatever political and financial changes there may be. These advantages will be forfeited by the abandonment of the principle which we have established. There is one more matter with which I think I ought to deal, and that is the question of the surrender of surpluses. What does the surrender of surplus mean? It means that when the House has voted money, and the Department to which it is voted cannot spend it, it is handed back to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, if it is wanted, it must be raised again in the course of the next year. All those who have been inside the Admiralty or the Treasury know that that leads to an endeavour on the part of the Admiralty to spend all the money voted before the end of the financial year, even though it is not absolutely necessary. They endeavour to use up money as fast as it is voted in order not to have to ask the House to vote it again in the next year. If they had to ask the House to vote it again, it would make the Estimates so much higher. Then take contract work. The Secretary to the Admiralty, with a certain amount of complacency, showed that the expenditure last year on contract work had been about that which was expected; but whether contracts can be carried out does not depend upon any action by the Admiralty. It is extremely difficult to foresee all that the contractors may call for. No doubt, with a more business-like arrangement at the Admiralty it would be possible to estimate more closely. My right hon. Friend near me is as capable of making a forecast as any man; but it does not depend entirely either upon the Admiralty or upon the contractors. It is said, "Keep the contractors up to the mark and you will spend the money, and all will go well"; but the contractors, if I am not mistaken, have strike clauses in their contracts; and even if there were not strike clauses, there are the changes in trade, the difficulty of getting a full number of workmen, and other incidents which prevent the contractor from carrying out his best intention of delivering as much work during the year as he otherwise would do. There is the possibility of a breakdown in machinery. Some contractor may find at the most critical moment that his machinery has broken down. What is the result? He cannot earn his money; the money voted has to be returned, and it is put down to the maladministration of the Admiralty. Now, the moral I would draw from all this is, that if you can equalise the expenditure over a certain number of years, then you get rid of this financial disarrangement. The financial regularity which is supposed to ensue from the ordinary system is lost by the financial irregularity of the device to which the Admiralty have recourse in order to avoid a surrender of the surplus. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer would he not prefer that he should know that the Navy Estimates every year should be a certain amount rather than that he should have to use a surrendered surplus in any one year towards paying off the National Debt, and the next year to provide a sum of money to make up for it? Regularity of expenditure surely must be something that you should aim at if you have not got to sacrifice to it any other great considerations. I think that what the Government have to do is to show that their plan has advantages over ours. Then there is this peculiar point in the construction of ships—that little money is required the first year, much in the middle years, and less money again afterwards. Therefore, in the planning of a programme you cannot do justice to the taxpayers of different years unless, when you are dealing with construction on a large scale, you divide it into regular instalments over a certain number of years. I think that the Government are bound to show cause why they are unable to assent to the more regular system which we have introduced. What are its disadvantages? There are, no doubt, some petty disadvantages which I should hardly think the right hon. Gentleman opposite or his colleagues would insist upon. There are small difficulties of account here and there. Here and there it might be necessary to have an amending Act to increase the total cost; but these are all small disadvantages compared with the greater administrative and financial regularity, the greater speed and greater continuity in construction which are to be found on the other side. The main argument against our scheme, from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman, is one that he urged with great eloquence upon a previous occasion. It was the disadvantage of withdrawal from the control of Parliament. But what control does Parliament exercise over the naval expenditure under the plan of Her Majesty's Government? None, absolutely none. They do not give us the chance of exercising any kind of control. What has happened during the last year? I am informed that ships have been begun involving a liability of £2,400,000, for which Parliamentary sanction was not obtained. That point has been made by my hon. Friend, and has not been denied. And consider how the liabilities are carried forward. It is said that we have put liabilities on our successors. I think the present plan not only places known liabilities on the successors of the Government for which provision is made by additional taxation, but also liabilities which cannot be estimated by their opponents or the House at large. No one knows the amount of liability entailed by the programme of the Government. We had a celebrated torpedo case where, without Parliamentary sanction, or, at least, ex post facto sanction, a liability of £500,000 was incurred.

:I think I shall be right in placing it at £500,000. At all events, we are in this position: that this charge was incurred without any authority from Parliament. I wonder if hon. Members below the Gangway are aware that the Government is able to incur this immense expenditure quite regardless of Party control, and treating it with a complacency and gaiety which I must say astonishes me to a certain extent. The gallant Admiral (Admiral Field) says the Government were per- fectly right in ordering these torpedo vessels; but even if that is so, I think every Member of the House will agree with me that the Government ought to have come forward and informed the House of what it had done, not by means of a speech, but by a Minute placed upon the Table of the House showing the gravity of the case, and inviting Parliament to condone what had been done in the interests of the Public Service. I am glad to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer endorses that view. If we are to give discretion in these matters, and give the Admiralty power to divert moneys in this way, Parliament ought at least to be informed of the liability that has been incurred for the future. My hon. and gallant Friend says the Government were right in doing this, as otherwise they might have had to build these torpedo ships in a hurry, but the noble Lord complains that the boats were built in a hurry. If the Government had some distinct strategic information which made it necessary for them to build in a hurry, they were justified in that expenditure, and I would be the first to condone the act. If, however, it was merely that some naval Lord was suddenly struck with the idea that torpedo-catchers were the one thing needed, and that everything else ought to be postponed, I say that is one of the dangers which exist owing to the absence of a Naval Defence Act. I ask Her Majesty's Government whether they do not think we are entitled to somewhat more information than we have got? What is the liability for future years which we are about to incur through the programme of the Government? We are absolutely in the dark as to whether we shall require£l,000,000 or£2,000,000 more next year. It is a very strong order for the Government to ask the House not only to give them this blank cheque, but this whole batch of blank bills, extending over I do not know how many years, without having placed us in possession of any information as regards their general scheme. They pledge themselves to carry that scheme out, but they cannot pledge their supporters, who do not know whether the programme involves £8,000,000, £16,000,000, or £24,000,000, and such a pledge is, of course, impossible. I give the Government every credit for the desire to do their best during the time they are in Office, but it is impossible for them to pledge themselves in advance, when everything remains uncertain, and when the Government will not put their case before the country as a full programme. One of the main reasons given why the House is not taken into confidence with regard to the programme is that foreign nations would learn what ships we intend to build, and might thereby be stimulated to increased activity. The Secretary to the Admiralty said he did not wish to make a flourish of trumpets; but my belief is that nearly every Naval Power in Europe knows the secret. We have seen a very admirable sketch in The Pall Mall Gazette containing information which has been refused to the House of Commons. Whether that scheme is correct or not, it must have been put forward by one who has a certain degree of access to the knowledge as to what is going on in Her Majesty's Dockyards, because there is in it proof of a good deal of technical information. Apart from that, is it really believed that foreign Governments will not know what we are doing? We know what foreign Governments are doing. We cannot prevent them from knowing what we are doing, and I do not mind them knowing. I look upon this programme as the embodiment of the decision of the nation at large, and I do not think there is any harm whatever in foreign nations being acquainted with what we are doing. I cannot admit that it was the publication of the programme under the Naval Defence Act of 1889 which led to increased shipbuilding in France and Russia. The explanation is to be sought rather in political events, which can be proved by dates, to which I will not now refer. Foreign nations ought to know, and I believe they do know, that our Navy has to perform a vast number of duties which are not imposed upon other Navies; and therefore we may say to our foreign neighbours in. perfect amity that we must have an overpowering Fleet, because our circumstances are so entirely different. I have seen foreign countries speak of "aggression" on our part. This is simply nonsense. Every foreign statesman and every foreign journalist ought to know that aggression is absolutely foreign to any of the attempts which we are making, and which we are determined to continue, to increase our Fleet. I have never been wedded to the principle that our Fleet should be equivalent or somewhat superior to two foreign Fleets. I do not think that is a proper standard. We might be involved, say, in a war with France and Russia, and at the same time contentions might arise with other Powers. In those circumstances we should be in extreme difficulty if we had to barter away some of our claims in order to deal with the situation which had thus suddenly arisen. Or suppose we were at war with America, and Russia and France were suddenly to raise the question of Egypt—if this country should ever have the misfortune to be engaged in such a mighty war—that would be the time when pretensions would be made upon us from other quarters, and so, if we were not ready to meet not only two Powers, but a larger combination of Powers, we might be in a position of great danger. We must look these things in the face, and the Government have looked them in the face. They would not have proposed such a programme unless they were aware of these necessities. I will conclude my remarks with the observation that, however large the proposal is, I think there are grounds to justify it on considerations of amity and peace. It is quite certain that the larger our power the more sure shall we be of allies if ever we get into difficulty. All securities for peace would be doubled by the knowledge that we were the stronger side. I have made these remarks in reference to the suggestion of the Government, that we ought to keep our programme secret, because foreign nations ought not to know what we are doing. I can only repeat that we are entitled to know what we are doing upon every ground of national security, and there is no question whatever that if foreign countries should think it necessary to increase their armaments we should still hold that we must still have that superiority which Her Majesty's Government acknowledge ought to be maintained, and which, I believe, the country is, under all circumstances and at any cost or sacrifice, determined to have.

:The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has, in a long and interesting speech, ranged over many topics, begin- ning with the principle of ship construction and ending with the rather alarming prospect of a universal war. I do not intend to deal either with the first or the last topic. An important part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted to the financial arrangements in connection with our naval proposals, and to that alone I shall address myself. Like himself, I do not desire to go back upon the past or to reopen old controversies. The right hon. Gentleman delivered a very touching funeral oration over the Naval Defence Act. He seemed to have been rather pricked by conscience because the operation of the Imperial Defence Act and the Naval Defence Act has been to leave the unhappy Chancellor of the Exchequer who succeeded him to pay some five millions of money which he himself was not kind enough to meet. He was, however, good enough to say that he gave me his compassion, and that he would be ready to give me his assistance in making good the amount. I will try to meet him on that point. I will not go into the history of what I will only call the most unfortunate experiment, from the point of view of finance, that ever was made, nor will I review the sorrows of all the Departments who have suffered in consequence of the making of that experiment. I will come at once to the leading principle which, in the opinion of the Government, ought to direct our finance in matters of this kind. I will take the question upon the broader ground which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. He said perfectly truly that the principle adopted by the late Government was to put their financial arrangements into a state which was designed to protect themselves against disturbance or change from any cause. That, no doubt, was the policy of the Naval Defence Act apart from its particular defects. But we absolutely dissent from, and under no circumstances would adopt, a policy of that description. The right hon. Gentleman said our principal objection had been to the seven years' annuity. That was not our principal objection. The objection to the seven years' annuity was that it was unfair that liabilities for construction should not be met during the period of the construction. That was altogether a secondary objection. Our fundamental objection was that the system adopted violated the first principles of the financial constitution of this country, which is that the finance of the Army and Navy and the whole expenditure of this country belongs to the House of Commons, and to the House of Commons alone. The fundamental vice of the Naval Defence Act was that it made the House of Lords the partner with the House of Commons in dealing with the finance of the country. Gentlemen opposite may be disposed to give the control of the finance to the House of Lords and to leave them to provide the money. But, in our opinion, the voting of the money, the control of the money, and the dealing with the money belong to the House of Commons, and to the House of Commons alone, and it is not for the House of Lords to say whether the arrangements we make should be changed or not. Under a Naval Defence Act what might happen? The House of Commons might come to the conclusion that the arrangements made two or three years before were not good arrangements and might desire to change them, but the House of Lords could say, "No; you shall not change them; we will not allow the Act to be altered." I do not know whether the traditions of the Conservative Party are so abandoned that they are prepared to throw overboard the control of the House of Commons over finance. Certainly no one on this side of the House would ever consent to an arrangement of that character. We all know what happened some 20 years ago or more with reference to the Paper Duty. The House of Commons repelled the Paper Duty and the House of Lords rejected the Bill, the result being that the tax remained upon the people. What was done in consequence of that action of the House of Lords? All the financial arrangements of the year were put into one Bill, so that the House of Lords could not touch that Bill without rejecting the whole provision for the expenditure of the country, and ever since that it has been a fundamental principle that you shall not have separate Bills dealing with financial expenditure which would enable the Lords to control expenditure that it is the right of the Commons alone to deal with. Therefore, on the broad principle, under no circumstances could we agree to placing for a period of years the finan- cial proposals of the country, least of all with respect to the great Services of the Army and Navy, in a Statute which would take out of our possession the control and disposal of the taxes. That is a broad principle, on which we are prepared to stand. It is hardly necessary for me to deal with the minor arguments of the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, though I should have very little difficulty, I think, in assuring him that they have as little force as those upon the larger issue. He says, let the naval proposals of the Government be put in a Statute so that you may not be able to change them. Why should you not he able to change them? He himself in an earlier part of his speech said he did not feel at all sure—and I think it quite open to doubt—whether the decision of the present advisers of the Admiralty to build a number of big ships is the best decision that can be arrived at, or whether it might not be better to build a smaller number of big ships and a larger number of small ships. Supposing you found a few years hence that foreign countries are building fewer big ships and more small ones, what sense would there be in having a Statute which would prevent you making any change in your plans? The right hon. Gentleman says the advisers of the Admiralty may at one time take one view and at another time another view. Well, at the respective times at which they form their opinions they may be perfectly right, and, that being so, why should you for six years or for any other term prohibit yourselves from making changes which may be very beneficial and necessary? The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of torpedoes. Supposing that during the course of the five years you found you had not torpedo-boats enough, and that the country was placed in great danger in consequence. What is the sense of binding yourself by Act of Parliament to go on building great ironclads when you may be exposed to great danger because you have not a sufficient number of torpedo-boats? This system of tying up your hands and your legs shows a profound distrust both of the House of Commons and of the English people. Why should they not be at liberty to judge from time to time what is necessary for that time, and whether the decision of five years previously cannot be modified with advantage? The right hon. Gentleman says we attach importance to Parliamentary control. We do attach importance to Parliamentary control; but by Parliamentary control we mean the control of the House of Commons, and of no one else. What he means by Parliamentary control is joint control by the House of Commons and the House of Lords. That is not the Parliamentary control we contemplate in matters of this description. As to what the right hon. Gentleman said about things being done by the Admiralty without the cognisance of the House of Commons, I believe the Admiralty ought to have the power to take upon itself the responsibility of commencing work which it thinks necessary at the time for the safety of the country. If the right hon. Gentleman says the Admiralty ought to take the earliest opportunity of communicating its. action to the House of Commons I entirely agree with him. I say, however, that if you find yourself all of a sudden in need of a number of torpedo-boats because five years ago you passed an Act of Parliament—

:I beg pardon; I did not say you should not have these boats, but that you should come to Parliament to pass the money for them.

:I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. He would not say you should not take action because you could not ask Parliament beforehand. If he says the proper thing is to bring the matter before the House of Commons at the earliest possible moment,. I think that is a perfectly reasonable view, and that is what I understand by Parliamentary control. The right hon. Gentleman also raised a point about the surrender of the surplus. It seems to be supposed that you cannot use the surplus of one year for work in the next year without an Act of Parliament. That is not so at all. Supposing the Admiralty spent ÂŁ200,000 less one year than they had supposed they wanted. In that case, according to a rule which is at the root of all your finances, and which it would inflict great injury on your finance to depart from, the ÂŁ200,000 must be surrendered at the end of the year, but it does not necessarily go into the Sinking Fund to be applied to the reduction of the National Debt. All you have to do next year is to get Parliament to re-vote the money, and it will then come into use next year just as if it had been placed in a Naval Defence Act. Therefore, all these objections respecting the difficulty of the Admiralty being obliged to spend in a particular year money which it does not want are entirely imaginary.

:May I ask whether, if the money is not spent, it does not go into the Sinking Fund?

:No; it was introduced long before either the right hon. Gentleman or I went to the Treasury. According to all sound principles you surrender the money that is not spent and to have the advantage of that money; you re-vote it under the authority of the House of Commons. In my opinion, that is a system infinitely better in administration than any Act of the character of the Naval Defence Act. Those are the reasons why the Government cannot adopt the policy of the late Parliament and the late Government of placing practically for five years the naval expenditure of the country out of the control of the House of Commons. That is a system we object to in principle and which we say is bad, because it may prevent you from making certain payments that may be required. Supposing, for instance, in the course of the next five years the political condition of Europe should change very much for the better— which God grant it may! Suppose the House of Commons thinks that the new arrangements place great burdens upon the people, and that they should be lightened, is it for the House of Lords to say, "You shall not," and to say that "For five years you shall make no change?" That is a system in which we could not, under any circumstances, concur. There is only one point more which I wish to refer to. The right hon. Gentleman spoke on the question of the liability imposed upon us under this scheme. My right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty has stated why the Government do not think it would be desirable to make public what they consider to be the whole of their programme. It is not necessary that I should repeat that. They consider it a question of high policy that all things should not be published upon the housetop, and are therefore not disposed to publish everything they intend to do. Of course, with regard to our liabilities present and future, we cannot, unless we are prepared to make public all our programme, declare at the present time what they will be. For instance, in the case of certain ships, it is a fact that the contracts are not yet concluded, and yet we were calmly asked to-night to give a detailed account of their cost. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman gave the minimum and maximum amounts to be expended on ships before the contracts were completed.

:Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Government can never state to the House of Commons what our proposed ships will cost until he has himself passed or accepted the contracts for their completion? Is that in accordance with the idea of Parliamentary control?

:I appeal to business men whether it is practical to publish the price of ships whilst the contracts are being made. The reply to the right hon. Gentleman's question seems to be a matter only of common sense. The right hon. Gentleman also asked me a question which I was rather surprised at. He wanted to know what provision I was going to make for the next few years.

:Unless and until we know these matters it will be impossible for us to judge of them fairly.

:I do not wish to deal with these matters in a controversial spirit, but I thought it desirable to state very distinctly that we are at issue with the late Government on the question of finance. We are not in favour of dealing with this matter by a Statute, and we do not wish to press the financial matters so that they will be at the mercy of the veto of the House of Lords. Moreover, we are unwilling to make any arrangements which would deprive the House of Commons of its discretion to deal with the matter at any time it thinks fit if for any reasons whatever these arrangements should be modified. We think these are reasonable principles and the grounds upon which the Government have reverted to the old Constitutional policy and the reason why we do not propose to follow the new example set us in the Naval Defence Act of the last Parliament.

* :I have listened with great surprise to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. It places an entirely different aspect upon what we have been told was the naval policy of the Government. We have been told in the clearest way that the Government are committed to a five years' programme, every detail of which has been thought out and carefully elaborated, and that it was only for reasons of "high state" that the Government decline to place the House in full possession of their scheme. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes forward and entirely pooh-poohs the whole idea of a five years' scheme. One of the great disadvantages, he says, of having a binding Act is that one cannot alter one's mind before the five years expire, and he has hinted that unlooked-for circumstances might arise when the power to make a change would be desirable. With that explanation vanishes all hope of a continuous programme. I always had grave doubts whether Her Majesty's Government mean what I can only describe as "serious business." It is impossible to bind the House or the country to any scheme of which they had not full knowledge, and it is clear that if the scheme of which we heard so much is not referred to the House of Commons in its entirety, when the successors of Her Majesty's Government— supposing there were a change of administration — proposed in a future Session to continue the scheme, it would be in the power of gentle- men below the Gangway opposite who have helped the Government to keep their plans secret to object. Who is to be believed—those Members of the Government who tell us that they are pledged to a five years' scheme or the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who in a light and airy way has absolutely demolished the idea of a five years' continuous policy? The late Chancellor of the Exchequer in a speech altogether free from Party recrimination has shown the House in the clearest way that any scheme extending over a number of years cannot be effective unless it is associated with a business-like procedure, which he submitted with reference to the present proposal is not likely to be the case. He pointed out the results achieved by an expenditure of £21,000,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has also said that the House of Lords ought to have nothing whatever to do with the control of the national expenditure. An excellent sentiment! But the right hon. Gentleman when he made that statement forgot that there is a very distinguished and noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty at the present moment who is mainly responsible for the naval expenditure of this country. It is a curious fact that the right hon. Gentleman has never been a Member of a Radical Administration in which the First Lord of the Admiralty was a Member of the House of Commons. The House of Lords must not interfere with the national expenditure! Was a more ridiculous proposition than that advanced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ever put forward? I will just ask the right hon. Gentleman to recollect his own experience. In 1886–7 he was Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he had to provide a large sum under a scheme of expenditure upon the Navy, a sum greater than was anticipated because the scheme of that day was not associated with business-like procedure, and consequently the Estimates were increased. But how did the right hon. Gentleman meet the difficulty? He suspended the Sinking Fund, and a Bill to that effect went to the House of Lords for their sanction. Why, Sir, it is mere platform claptrap to pretend that the Naval Defence Act deprives the House of Commons of control or supervision of details in this expenditure. If the majority of this House did not approve of the Naval Defence Act they had but to put it into an Act of Parliament and send it up to the House of Lords, and the House of Lords would have no option but to assent. The object of the Naval Defence Act was not to give the House of Lords a control in national expenditure, but to insure that, unless strong reasons were given which should convince the House of Commons, there should not be any interference with the continuous prosecution of the process of shipbuilding which was supposed to be essential for the national safety. Let us look at this matter seriously. Do the Government mean business or not in this matter? The Government had asked the House to assent to a fragmentary proposal involving a liability of £14,000,000 sterling for shipbuilding alone. The Press have published various statements which supply the rest of the information concerning the Government scheme. Whether they are accurate or not, I am convinced from my own experience, and by the light of the advice of those with whom I have been associated, that if there is a five years' scheme the amount to be spent for shipbuilding cannot be less than £25,000,000. To this amount there has to be added at least £5,000,000 for the Ordnance Vote; so that, assuming the Admiralty have their way, the scheme involves an expenditure of £30,000,000. This expenditure represents an enormous industrial undertaking; it is a gigantic manufacturing enterprise; and surely if the House is in earnest it ought to insist upon seeing that so gigantic an expenditure is associated with a business-like procedure. The Government, however, has no procedure whatever. To the surprise of every financial authority on this side of the House the Chancellor of the Exchequer has read out a statement stating money can be re-voted out of the cash balances of the preceding year for the relief of the subsequent year. So far as I know, such a course has never been taken before.

:I understand the proposal to be this: a certain sum of money is not spent, and the purpose or liability for which that money was voted is carried over to next year. Therefore, there is in addition to these liabilities this transferred liability from the preceding year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer pretends that the money can be voted out of the cash balance of the preceding year, although the account has been closed. [Sir W. HARCOURT: No.] At any rate, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, it appears to me, suggesting a principle of greater financial irregularity than any of which his predecessors in Office have been guilty. When the late Government proposed the procedure under the Naval Defence Act they had in their recollection the difficulties which their predecessors had to encounter. One was the substitution of steel for wood in shipbuilding, a change which rendered it almost impossible to continue the system of shipbuilding under the system of annual Votes. Since steel has taken the place of timber it must be remembered that nearly all the parts of a ship are made of steel, and are supplied direct by the contractor and afterwards worked up in the ship as fast as the material arrives. The progress of a ship depends on the supply of steel, and the supply of steel depends on the state of trade in the country; and the national finance is liable to be upset by the irregularities of contractors resulting either from periods of brisk or dull trade. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will no doubt remember the difficulty he had to contend with in 1886–87, when he was first appointed to the Office he now holds. Lord Northbrook proposed a shipbuilding programme which in its entirety was a small one, amounting to something like £3,000,000. In the second year there was a miscalculation of over £500,000, and this miscalculation upset the Budget. The result of an absence of business - like procedure, therefore, forced the House of Commons to upset the business-like method by which the National Debt was reduced. It was. because the late Government had this knowledge before them that the procedure of the Naval Defence Act was adopted. And it was fortunate they did so. One year they were no less than £1,000,000 out of their calculation, and this through no fault of the Admiralty. It was due to two reasons—one, the railway strike in Scotland; and, second, the inability of the founders and contractors to supply heavy steel castings, so that they were absolutely unable to lay down the vessels. Now let us see how that would upset the calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his estimates are at the last moment disturbed in that way. It is to the interest of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury to see that any continuous scheme of shipbuilding is associated with a procedure which will distribute the cost over a number of years, and minimise as much as possible any disturbance of the Estimates. I admit, however, that the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is one which raises grave doubts in my mind as to whether he seriously contemplates the prosecution of this great scheme. I have always understood that when the late Government was in Office the great objection to the procedure of the Naval Defence Act was that it postponed liabilities. That was, I think, the great charge made by the Party opposite against us. But if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not mean to stop this five years' scheme, and if it is to be pushed through, the House is asked to assent to it without knowing the full extent of the liability. I think I shall be able to show before I sit down that if the Admiralty are to carry out a five years' scheme, that scheme must necessitate double the increased cost which is proposed in the present Estimates. It is only fair to the House and to the country in these circumstances that the Government should take both into their confidence, and that they should make known what were the dimensions of the scheme. [was disposed to look upon the proposal as a large, far-seeing, and progressive scheme, and I was prepared to congratulate the Government on bringing it forward, and to assure them of the assistance of the Opposition in carrying it through to its proper consummation. But after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, filled as it was with taunts, and being doubtful whether there was not some change of opinion among Her Majesty's advisers, who at the last moment had fallen into line with public opinion, I am afraid that they are now only prepared to propose Estimates for one year, and to make no provision for meeting the expenditure of subsequent years. I am not finding fault with the magnitude of the scheme which the figures reveal; but I want the House and the country to know that we are so far pledged to those proposals that there will not hereafter be any special objection or obstruction to their realisation should there be any change of Government or any fresh appeal to the electors. With additional allowances for new ships it is clear that by this shipbuilding scheme £22,000,000 will have to be provided during the next four years, and that involves an average Shipbuilding Vote of £5,500,000. But the present Vote is only £4,500,000—a difference of £1,000,000 a year. Surely the House ought to be told what the Government's intentions are. In the only two shipbuilding programmes which have been laid before the House of recent years, the whole scheme and expenditure were at once declared. If the late Government were wrong, as we have been so often told, in postponing liabilities, how much worse are the present Government in concealing liabilities! I have calculated that there must be at least an increase of £500,000 in the Ordnance Vote for the next four years. Then with regard to the Works Vote. No doubt the Works Vote appears to be of large dimensions, but naval mobilisation is quite different from military mobilisation. As there are only three large ports— Chatham, Devonport, and Portsmouth— where the ships can take in stores and guns, it is essential for purposes of concentration to have a large extension of the accommodation at each port. Without that, rapid mobilisation would be impossible. Therefore, I entirely agree with the Admiralty in looking forward to a large scheme of works in connection with the naval arsenals of the country; but the amount of money which they take for the prosecution of those plans is clearly insufficient. It may be sufficient for the present year, but for the next four years there must be an average increase of £250,000. When the Home Secretary was electioneering lately in Berwickshire, he attacked the late Board of Admiralty so ferociously that it is necessary to take notice of what he said. The Board of Admiralty is not entirely composed of politicians; and though I do not attach much importance to any attack made in the heat of an election, the distinguished naval officers with whom I was associated, and to whom the attack equally applied, value their professional reputations. The Home Secretary said—

"I am anxious that the country should note the difference between our policy and that of our predecessors. We have not been content with building a number of additional ships without making additional provision for the men to man them."

Or, to state it in plain terms, that the late Board of Admiralty, including both civilian and naval officers, were guilty of the egregious folly of building a large number of ships without making an effort to man them. What are the facts? The total number of men required to man and officer every single ship built under the Naval Defence Act was 21,984. While those ships were in course of construction a number of older ships passed out of commission, and their crews, numbering 5,000 men, were freed for other service. Thus 17,000 additional men were required altogether by the Naval Defence Act. The late Board of Admiralty resigned 18 months ago, or nearly two years before the last ship was completed. They had then added to the active list 12,700 men, 5,500 to the Naval Reserve, and 1,000 to the Pensioner Reserve, making a total of over 19,000. Probably the Home Secretary will see that some apology from him is due to the distinguished naval men against whom he made an unjustifiable attack upon an utterly unfounded statement. With respect to the present programme, at least 26,000 men will be required to man the ships to be built during the next five years. Assuming that 3,000 men will be available from ships passing out of commission, 23,000 will remain to be provided for during the next four years. A considerable number will come, I think, from the Naval Reserve; and if 4,500 men are added to the active list each year during the next four years an increase of ÂŁ1,400,000 in the Estimates will be involved. That, together with the other increase I have mentioned, amounts to a total increase of at least ÂŁ3,000,000 in order to give effect to this five years' scheme. If the Government are in earnest they ought to give some indication of that increase. Surely that is incumbent upon them. Supposing there should be a change of Government, the new Board of Admiralty would be attacked at once for merely attempting to carry out their predecessors' policy, on the ground that the expenditure had been concealed from the country. That would be a great obstacle to a continuous naval policy. Surely, then, in the interests of fair play, and in order to consummate their own scheme, the Government ought to take the House more into their confidence, and give some information concerning the scheme they were putting forward. Now, Sir, I think there has never been in any Estimates so little information afforded as to the cost of particular ships. The Financial Secretary stated that it was not advisable to do so, because several ships had not been put out to contract. But the Terrible and Powerful had been contracted for, and why should not the cost of these vessels be stated?

:But it is not here. It ought to be in the Estimates, and it is not.

:When I said there was no objection to give the information, I should have added, "provided there are no subsidiary contracts pending."

* :I think I have shown clearly that the House must have more information given. The right hon. Gentleman can hardly expect that the House will be satisfied with the tone in which his announcements have been made as to the intentions of the Government. Now, one or two words with respect to the criticisms of the hon. Member for West Belfast and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Holderness Division. A very good reply might be made to the criticisms they advanced. Both hon. Members attacked the Admiralty for not arming old vessels with modern guns. I personally, perhaps, am more responsible than anyone else for the policy pursued. The defence is that the long modern guns are not suitable for the broadside ships designed to carry short guns. I wish that some day the Admiralty would try the experiment of putting several of these long guns on a broadside ship, and when firing them at the extreme angle make the critics work the guns. These old vessels were not built for long guns; and be it a turret-ship or barbette, the diameter of the turret or barbette must regulate the length of the guns put into it. There is great difficulty in working the guns of such vessels, because in consequence of the extra weight of the vessels produced by the heavy armaments they are deeply immersed. My own view is that these vessels, excellent as they are, should be equipped with the guns of vessels of their own date. The guns with which they are armed are good guns of their date, and in penetration and accuracy of fire are quite equal to the breech-loading guns of that time. I quite agree with both my hon. Friends in one criticism, and that is that it is essential under modern naval conditions that vessels should be built as long and of as high a freeboard as possible. It is curious to notice the vessels built between 1860 and 1870 and compare them with those built between 1870 and 1880. The vessels of the earlier period are magnificent specimens of naval architecture, and they are still looked upon by naval officers as useful either as battleships or cruisers. But those built during the later period cannot be placed in that category. They undoubtedly fail, and though they might be useful as coastguard vessels, I do not think any Admiral would care to have them on his list of battleships. A certain moral may be drawn from the failure of these vessels. There were two influences operating upon the Admiralty at that time; one, the opinion of naval officers, who were anxious to shorten vessels in order that they might be handier and easier to steer; and the other, the views of the mechanical engineers, who were anxious to increase the size of the guns in order to show what the profession could do. The result was that the Admiralty gradually drifted until our vessels became mere rafts with low immersion, having heavily-armed martello towers and carrying heavy guns. I cannot help thinking that if the Admiralty were in error they were forced by outside public opinion to adopt these vessels. If the Admiralty had been left alone there would not have been so many failures to regret, and I think we may safely leave the naval officers at the Admiralty, with such outside opinions as they wish to call in on certain points, to design vessels in future. The hon. Member for Cardiff has himself handsomely acknowledged that in his judgment there has been a marked improvement in the designs of vessels during the last few years. We have heard a good deal about the 22 torpedo-boat destroyers which the right hon. Gentleman ordered. I do not in the least dispute the necessity for that order, but as the late Chancellor of the Exchequer has pointed out, the assent of the House should have been obtained before these orders were placed. I had the advantage the other day of seeing one of the first specimens of them, and I think the name torpedo-boat destroyer is misleading. They are nothing more nor less than large torpedo-boats, and so much do they resemble them that at a couple of hundred yards they cannot be distinguished from torpedo-boats. They are very fast, and fully answer the anticipations of their designers. They are intended to protect the commerce and Navy of this country from the attacks of torpedo-boats. I doubt whether they will be able to perform that duty. The main danger of torpedo-boat attack is at night. It is impossible to suppose that a port can be masked or blockaded by such vessels in bad weather. If we want vessels for this night-work it is essential they should be bigger, and there should be more protection for the men performing such duty. In the new programme there are a considerable number of small vessels. My own opinion is strongly in favour of large vessels. The more one considers the particular danger which threatens our naval supremacy the more he will see that it is incumbent upon this country to spend more money on large ships and less on small ships. The peculiarity of the naval situation in Europe at present is this: that not only has a considerable number of foreign nations spent large sums on big ships, but when those big ships are complete they will be kept at home. There has never been so much concentrated naval force in European waters as at the present time. The French have a most powerful fleet at Toulon, and they do not send their big vessels abroad. We, on the other hand, have large interests to protect in all parts of the world, and it is necessary we should build a larger number of small vessels than foreign nations. If we should be engaged in a war, the first function of the Navy would be to maintain our supremacy at sea, and the second—in my judgment a wholly secondary duty—to protect the commerce upon the sea. So long as we have command of the sea it is easy enough to give protection to commerce, but the moment we lose command of the sea no amount of small vessels in all parts of the world would avail us. We are short of big ships, but we have a considerable excess of small vessels over foreign nations, and therefore, unless some very strong reason can be given for the contrary, I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government will consider the propriety of substituting a small number of large vessels for a greater number of small ones. The Financial Secretary stated the other night that these cruisers were to be sheathed. That means that they have to go to distant parts of the world, but they have nothing to fight there. Foreign nations sent their old or almost obsolete vessels away on such duty. When a struggle does take place it will be the nation which has the most large ships in European waters that will win the battle. That being so, we ought to strengthen ourselves in large vessels, and not fritter away our money in small vessels. Apart from that, the larger vessel is the better investment. The bigger the vessel the longer it remains an effective fighting ship; the smaller the vessel the sooner it becomes obsolete. There is another reason, and one which I urge in the interests of the Admiralty. The Colonial Office and the Foreign Office are always putting pressure on the Admiralty to send a ship here and a ship there —to hoist the flag, to protect some particular industry, to accelerate some little diplomatic difficulty. This work must be done, but there is a limit to the number of the ships which can be employed upon it. In view of the fact that foreign nations are concentrating their full naval power, this tendency to dispersion is an obvious danger in the event of our being suddenly called to battle. Big ships mean concentration, and small ones dispersion of power, and I hope the Government will carefully look into this question, and consider the propriety of some redistribution of expenditure as between large and small vessels. I apologise to the Committee for having detained it at such length. I hope I have put a wrong interpretation upon the language used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In reference to the scheme, I can only say I congratulate the Government upon having made so large an addition to naval expenditure. I hope that this addition will grow year by year, and so far as I and my friends are concerned we shall do everything, if the Government pursue that course, to help them. At the same time, I think that by dissociating their scheme of expenditure from a business-like procedure they have endangered the success of their plan, and I am sure they are unnecessarily raising difficulties in the way of consecutive administration.

said, he did not rise for the purpose of making a speech, but simply for the purpose of asking a question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a very important statement as to the use which could be put by the Treasury of the balances which were surrendered. He wanted to put a concrete case. By the Naval Appropriation Account, 1892–93, as audited by the Auditor General, there was a surplus on the normal services of £131,000 odd less a deficit on other Votes of £15,000, leaving a net surplus of £115,000. The Navy Estimates proposed for last year amounted to £14,240,000, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech stated that he laid the necessary taxation on the country to provide that sum. Therefore, at that time he had in his balances at the Exchequer a surplus from the previous year of £115,000, as was shown by the Navy Appropriation account of 1892–93. He wished to know whether in laying on taxation the right hon. Gentleman allowed for that surplus, and if not what became of the £115,000?

Exchequer of the day had his unappropriated balance of ÂŁ200,000 in hand and the Admiralty subsequently wanted that sum he was informed that the familiar practice was for him to hand over that sum for naval purposes without disturbing his Budget for the current year, and then, if necessary, the sum could be re-voted by that House. In all probability when the Budget was introduced the accounts would not have been made up, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer might not know that there was an unappropriated balance.

:So I believe. To state that it is surrendered is unnecessary and involves a serious departure from our financial system. The practice is as I have stated.

:I understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that he does not know from his own personal knowledge that that has been the practice. [Sir W. HARCOURT: No.] I have pointed out here, as a matter of fact, the Chancellor of the Exchequer raised the full amount in taxation required for the Navy Estimates of 1893–94, although at the time he had a surplus in his balances of £115,000 arising from the unexpended amounts of the previous year.

:I think that would be necessarily so, because at the time of the Budget the accounts would not have been completed, so that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not told at that time that there would be this money available. That is the very case in which I am saying that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not know of the amount.

observed, that there being this balance of ÂŁ115,000, probably the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his coming Budget, would not have to ask the country for the full amount of the Navy Estimates.

said, the burden of the speech of the late Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. For-wood) was that the policy of the late Government was better than that of the present Government. He would like to examine that allegation. The main difference between the financial policy of the present Government and the late Govern- ment was this: That whilst the present Government proposed that the cost of the normal and abnormal programme should be defrayed out of current revenue, the late Government bound Parliament to a stereotyped programme and a fixed expenditure of £21,000,000 in five years. But, whilst doing this, they borrowed £10,000,000 and took seven years' credit, instead of paying the whole in the five years. This, to his mind, for a Department which was able to find the cash, was short-sighted financing. What was the consequence? He held that the late Admiralty, in adopting the scheme they did under the Naval Defence Act, adopted a scheme which cost the country more than it otherwise would. It cost the taxpayers something like £750,000 more than what they would have been called upon to pay had the Government voted the money out of the annual taxation of the country. If the Chancellor of ,the Exchequer had suspended the operations of the Sinking Fund instead of adopting an annuity scheme he would have been adopting a sound system of financial policy, but the scheme he did adopt was one which, from the necessities of the case, simply amounted to one of robbing Peter to pay Paul. With regard to the programme of the present Government involving a very large addition to the naval expenditure of the country, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not informed them of anything as to ways and means; he had not told them how the additional cost was to be paid for, whether out of the current revenue or from some other source. If he intended to ask the taxpayers of the country to pay for the additional increase in the Navy out of the annual expenditure of the country he thought that whilst it might be regarded as a policy of sound finance it would not be expedient, and for this reason: the trade of the country was just emerging from a long period of depression. This being so, the easier the Government could make the cost to the taxpayer the better for the trade of the country. The Government could borrow any amount it pleased at from 2½ to 2¾ per cent., whilst the extra £3,000,000, if drawn at once from the taxpayers, meant the withdrawal of that amount at a higher rate of interest from the trading community, and thus so much the less capital for commercial purposes Hence, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer had some windfall under his sleeve, he thought he would act wisely were he to suspend some of the payments due under the Sinking Fund to meet the increased cost. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman intended appropriating some of the profit which he could secure by disposing of some of the Suez Canal shares. If not, why then he said that there was no need for the Liberal Party to incur the unpopularity of additional taxation, and so interfere with trade at the very moment that it was reviving. In connection with the increased expenditure, Parliament was asked to vote an increase of £1,654,200 for contract work in shipbuilding, and for works a further increase of £270,000. Now, before confirming the Vote, Parliament must be assured that the moneys voted would be spent for the purposes for which they were voted. He said this, because he found from the Report of the Auditor General that moneys voted for contract shipbuilding purposes had been, during the past six years, grievously misappropriated, not with regard to shipbuilding only, but also with regard to works. The fact was there seemed to be in connection with naval expenditure an utter absence of financial control. It was so under Lord Northbrook's period of office, when he made the mistake of spending £1,000,000 beyond what he was authorised to do; and the same appeared to have been the case down to the date of the Report issued the other day. According to the Report of the Auditor General there was an unexpended balance of £1,231,000. They were now asked for an additional increase in the contract for the Shipbuilding Vote and the Naval Estimates for this year. Before voting this large additional sum of money he should like to know what had become of the £1,231,117, which was the amount less expended than was voted by Parliament for specific purposes —namely, for contract shipbuilding. The Admiralty, again, had spent for works £201,119 less than was voted by Parliament. He wanted to know what had become of the amount which had not been expended? He wished to press upon the Secretary to the Admiralty that this money ought to be ex- pended strictly for the purpose for which it was voted by Parliament, and ought not to be devoted to any other purpose. He should like to say a ward or two in regard to the naval policy of the Government. The naval policy of the present Government was, in some measure, a continuation of the naval policy of the late Government. The principle laid down by the late, and accepted by the present, Government, was that this country should have in ironclads double the number of that of any other Maritime Power, with a large preponderance of cruisers. They knew that if all the ships built under the Naval Defence Act, and that were now proposed to be built, were to be maintained on a war footing they would require an enormous increase in the number of men. He would like to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if the Government had laid down any policy with regard to the number of men to be maintained during a period of peace, and also, if the ships were not to be kept on a war footing, what steps had been taken for the supply of the deficiency which would naturally be found in the number in the event of the ships having to be mobilised for war? He hoped the controversy on this great question was not whether this country should have double the number of battleships of any other country or of any other two countries, for he held that the Government of the day should satisfy Parliament that so far as the Navy was concerned it was not a question of double this or double that, but one of supremacy. Unless they could be assured that the policy of this country with regard to its Navy and its necessary appendages was one of supremacy, they would always have, every now and then, a panic. Supposing in the case of the next European war they were not absolutely supreme, in all probability this country would be called upon to pay a war indemnity of £ 100,000,000 or, perhaps, £ 1,000,000,000, and, therefore, he held that the expenditure of £2,000,000, more or less, on the Navy, for the purpose of maintaining their supremacy, was the safest and cheapest insurance in which this country could invest. In ascertaining what ought to be the strength of the Navy this would, in a large measure, depend upon the foreign policy of the country. He should like to ask the Government whether they considered that this country was to maintain its position in the Mediterranean as a European Power, and if they were, as a European Power, to be supreme over any other Power and over a combination of Powers? He held that their position in the Mediterranean at the present moment was not what it ought to be. To his mind, it was not a question of whether they had double the number of ships of the French or any other Power in the Mediterranean, but it was a question of being so supreme that in the event of war their power would be undeniable and overwhelming. This was not the case, to his mind, at present. In his opinion, the French had a much larger Mediterranean Squadron than England. But this was not the only point of comparison in favour of France. The French had a fortified base from which, in the event of war, they could direct operations, with this advantage: that they had any number of docks, which were equipped with all modern appliances, sufficiently large to permit of the docking and repairing of 15 or 20 ships at one time, whilst they had also the further advantage of having no difficulty with regard to fuel. At any time, in the event of an European war, France could have her fuel supplies carried overland to the ships lying in the harbours. On the other hand, all that England had was Malta, where the harbour accommodation was not nearly sufficient for the requirements of the large fleet they were bound to maintain for the purpose of retaining their power in the Mediterranean. Again, the harbours in Malta were not equipped with modern appliances, and they were lacking in other essentials. With regard to fuel arrangements in case of war, whilst the French could obtain coal without one voyage, they, on their part, would have to convoy coal from this country to the Mediterranean. Perhaps it might be said that in case of need their squadron could fall back upon Gibraltar. What good would that be? To fall back upon Gibraltar as it was at present fortified would be to tumble into a fool's paradise. The Government proposed this year to spend £1,000 in extending the mole and £1,000 in commencing a dock at Gibraltar. Common-sense told him that the expenditure of these small sums when such vast interests were at stake was mere child's play. If they were to maintain their position in the Mediterranean, Gibraltar must have not only a safe mole, but there must also be a large graving dock at the entrance to the Mediterranean. The Government and Parliament must face this most important factor. A dock must be made at the end of the Mole Parade 900 feet in length, or there must be two docks, one 500 and the other 400 feet long, capable of docking two large ships or half-a-dozen small ones. Then, in addition, there must be space for all the large plant necessary for repairs. To make preparations for merely painting a ship's bottom was absurd. He wanted to know what preparations were being made at Gibraltar for plant, engine, boiler, and heavy cranes which were necessary in the repair of ironclads? Unless the dock was to be fully equipped with modern appliances it would be of no use whatever. Then, to complete the supremacy of Great Britain in the Mediterranean, there must be another refuge in Cyprus. Why did Lord Beaconsfield secure this island for the country? It was so that it might be used as a base for the Navy. The harbour of Fumagusta ought to be at once dredged and made a strategical harbour and place of refuge and rendezvous for their ships. With a powerful dredger this could easily be done, and at a small cost. He held that unless they were prepared to abandon the Mediterranean they must have supremacy in their base. They must have Gibraltar to prevent the egress and ingress of hostile ships in the event of war, Malta as the Central base, and Cyprus to guard the route to the Dardanelles and the Canal. With regard to the naval programme of the Government, if what he had indicated—namely, supremacy in the Mediterranean—was their policy, then double the number of only two—say, the two leading—Powers was not sufficient for their purpose. Having said so much with regard to the policy he considered necessary in the Mediterranean, he now desired to say a few words upon the programme itself. The building programme of the Government involved, to his mind, a very large expenditure. The largest amount of expenditure was that which was proposed to be expended on large ironclads. He had always taken objection to the building of large ironclads. The loss of one of these vessels meant the sacrifice not only of much human life but of an enormous amount of property. Under their armour belt they were liable to be struck by shell or torpedo, and if the mechanical apparatus by which their guns were worked became disarranged they were no better than mere logs of wood in the water. The only argument urged in their favour was that they presented a better platform on which to work the guns. When they talked of a better platform, what was the platform displayed in the Bay of Biscay the other day by the Resolution? It was perfectly true that experts had said the Resolution was a safe ship, but here was what was said of her by one who was on board—

"With a maximum angle of stability of 38 degrees she rolled 42 degrees in moderate weather, and when fairly in the gale we dared not turn round for fear of going over. Tons of water, moreover, came below, and at one time there were five feet of water in the engine-room. In short, a first-class battleship, with 700 men on board, had the narrowest escape of sharing the fate of the Captain, and, as it is, the ship is dangerously strained and leaking from the effects of one gale."

That certainly did not go to prove that these large ships had a better platform. Suppose they had been at war, and the Resolution had been attacked by a vessel of the Rurie class in such condition of weather, it was clear that she would have been at the mercy of her enemy and must have been destroyed. He would like to read to the House the opinion of the late Hobart Pasha with regard to ships. Hobart Pasha had considerable experience of naval fighting during the Russo-Turkish War, and he wrote a letter regarding the position of the Navy to Lord Brassey. This was what he said, and he had experience—

"What we want are small, heavily-armed, fast vessels, as it were, vessels that will hop round their enemy like a cooper round a cask, hitting him on every vulnerable point, shelling his decks at long range, and worrying him to death. Of course, small vessels would be liable to hard knocks now and then; but you cannot go to war in kid gloves."

They had naval officers of considerable experience who held the same views. He contended that before the Admiralty decided on building such a large number of these huge battleships they ought at least to have given reasonable and careful consideration to what had been done, and the lines of policy followed by other countries. All other countries were dis- carding these huge ships. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted to-night that the programme might be altered if it were found that other maritime nations had begun to discard huge vessels. The Americans had always been looked upon as go-ahead people, who were not slow to adopt modern appliances, whether in guns or ships, but they were not following the example of this country with regard to these huge ironclads. The other day the Americans launched a vessel called the Indiana, of 10,000 tons, and in an article in The New York Herald the conditions and qualities of the two classes of ships were compared, and what was said was this—

"Mr. Clowes shows the superiority of our 10,000 ton battleships over those of the British 14,000. The Royal Sovereign's heavy guns must be brought to the fore and aft line for loading, while the Indiana's can be loaded in any position."

He should like to ask whether any improvement with regard to the bringing of guns in a position for the purpose of being loaded had recently been made in the new ships that were to be laid down, and whether each gun would be supplied from an independent magazine, or whether the ammunition would have to be brought from a distance? In his view, the huge ironclads were only good for coast defence. Some of them could not be sent farther than Gibraltar without requiring to coal, and no system had yet been devised by the Admiralty for coaling ships at sea. He would venture to recommend the building of a second-class of colliers, partly armed, so as to defend themselves against attack. In his view, the vessels that could carry the most coal would be those which would win in future warfare. It was all very well to compare our numbers of ships and guns with the number of ships and guns possessed by other countries, but what we wanted was efficiency. He desired to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he considered that the condition of the Navy of this country, in regard to 30 or 40 of our ships which were armed with muzzle-loading guns, was in such an efficient condition as the Navy of a Power such as Great Britain ought to be placed in? The muzzle-loading guns on board our men-of-war were no better than scrap-iron, and the whole of them ought to be removed. Another reason for their removal was that they were not of the same pattern, and could not interchange their ammunition in case one ship or another ran short. Defects of that kind ought to be removed by those responsible for the efficiency of the Navy regardless of expense. With regard to the question of manning, he thought that during the last 10years 15,000 permanent men had been added to the Navy at a cost of ÂŁ1,250,000 per annum, and the present Board were proposing a further increase of 6,800. He held that, before increasing the permanent forces of the Navy they ought to organise the Naval Reserve. The Naval Reserve for the protection of the Mercantile Marine were not used as they ought to be. This enormous increase to the number of men would add greatly to the annual expenditure of money, and the Government ought to endeavour to effect their object by a less expensive scheme.

said, he considered he should be neglecting his duty to his constituents if he did not enter a strong protest against the action of the Admiralty in completely ignoring the claims of Haulbowline to a share in the contemplated shipbuilding expenditure. Of the ÂŁ17,000,000 which were about to be voted for the needs of the Royal Navy during the current year the taxpayers of Ireland would contribute at least ÂŁ1,200,000, and yet it was not proposed to build as much as a gunboat at the only Government dockyard in that country, and while over the sum of ÂŁ4,000,000 was to be appropriated to the requirements of the dockyards of Great Britain a paltry ÂŁ5,000 was considered sufficient to meet the wants of the only Irish dockyard. Or to put the case more plainly still, out of each ÂŁ100 contributed by Irish taxpayers towards. the present Naval Estimates ÂŁ99 12s. 6d. would be spent in Great Britain, and the remaining three half crowns would be expended in Ireland.

this dock and basin, and when it was also remembered that this dockyard was situated in the finest and most commodious harbour in the United Kingdom. In view of those facts, he thought it was very much to be regretted that the Admiralty had not applied—as he had suggested in the form of a question—£2,000 or £3.000 of those £17,000,000 in furnishing Haulbowline with a building slip for the construction of a small class of vessels. A step in this direction would have been very much appreciated by the Irish people, because it would have shown that the Admiralty had begun to recognise that something was due in that respect to the Sister Island, and it would also have been a very graceful way of marking the recent visit of the Chief Secretary for Ireland to the dockyard. While, however, he felt called upon to make that protest, he willingly admitted that the present Admiralty Board had done something—indeed, he might say had done a great deal —to improve the condition of Haulbowline, and they had succeeded to a certain extent in rescuing it from the derelict and abandoned state into which it had been allowed to fall and remain by the late Government. He, therefore, appealed with confidence to the courteous Secretary to the Admiralty to give some assurance that he would take a further step in the right direction, and that just and reasonable claims of Haulbowline to a share in the proposed shipbuilding programme would be fairly re-considered by the Admiralty.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted, and 40 Members being found present,

said, that in consequence of the language of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to revoting, he felt compelled to make some remarks on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, of which he was a Member. The right hon. Gentleman's remarks somewhat surprised him and other Members of the Public Accounts Committee, and induced him to state what they understood to be the financial principles governing the House of Commons. Suppose at the end of the year there was a balance of £200,000 on the Shipbuilding Vote unexpended, what became of that balance? It was, he contended, surrendered to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and applied to the reduction of the National Debt. No doubt such a balance would represent some work not done or some liability not discharged; but that liability of an administrative or executive character would have to stand over to the following year, and then would have to be added to the liability of that year, and upon the sum total of such liability the Estimates would be submitted by the Spending Department to the House, the Votes in Supply being passed accordingly. This process was guarded by the issues from the Exchequer, which were under the control of a Parliamentary officer —the Comptroller and Auditor General. In the case of an unexpended balance it followed that there must have been an issue under the authority of the Comptroller and Auditor General. If the issue was not made by the 31st of March it would not be made at all, as the Comptroller and Auditor General would not allow it to be made—he would regulate the issues by the Parliamentary Votes, and by those alone. If the money was not issued by the 31st of March to the Spending Department it would never be issued at all. That seemed to him and the members of the Public Accounts Committee about the most elementary doctrine that could possibly be propounded, and they would not have ventured to give expression to such a truism had it not been for the extraordinary statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to re-voting. Whatever might be the experience of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to public accounts—and possibly the right hon. Gentleman might say he was not an authority on these subjects—at any rate, the Secretary to the Admiralty was as good an authority as there was in the House on the matter. He (Sir E. Temple) had had the honour of serving under the Chairmanship of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir U. Kay-Shuttleworth) for several years on the Public Accounts Committee, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to rise in his place and say whether the doctrine he (Sir R. Temple) had ventured to submit was correct or not. If it was said that chapter and verse should be quoted inas- much as he had ventured so positively to contradict what he understood—perhaps erroneously—to be the doctrine of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer he would refer the Committee to the National Debt Sinking Fund Act of 1875. Section 5 said that if there should be for any financial year

"a surplus of income above expenditure for that year the Treasury shall in the course of the next financial year cause the amounts of such surplus, which may be called the Old Sinking Fund, to be issued under the Consolidated Fund,"

and so forth. The sub-section went on—

"The Old Sinking Fund as above described shall be issued to the National Debt Commissioners, and shall be applied by them within six months of the issue thereof for the purpose of redeeming or paying off any one or more of the following descriptions of debt."

Then the section ended with what seemed to the Public Accounts Committee to be a sort of extra guard in the matter—

"But the Old Sinking Fund shall not be applied in paying off any loans borrowed under any Act,"

and so forth. There might be other Acts bearing on the point. They had not had much time for searching, and there might be some further Statutes or Treasury Regulations which confirmed the doctrine he had ventured to lay down. At all events, that doctrine was confirmed by the Statute be had quoted. In order to ensure that this Act was complied with the House had appointed a Parliamentary officer, who was well-known—namely, the Comptroller and Auditor General. The House appointed every year a Committee to consider the Auditor General's Report, and generally to see on behalf of the House that these laws were complied with. They would have thought, under all these circumstances, that nothing could be more explicitly provided for by a Parliament in any respect. In confirmation of this, it was notorious that in the contract branch of the Shipbuilding Department it often happened that the sums provided for had not been? paid to the contractors. He believed that his right hon. Friend the late Secretary to the Admiralty would confirm him when he said that it had always been a matter of anxiety at the Admiralty that money should not be lost—that the contractors should complete their work and get their money within the financial year. He did not say that they had been improperly anxious, but they had always been properly anxious in the matter. It was a sad thing to think that money which might have been applied to expediting the construction of war vessels might have to be surrendered to the Commissioners of National Debt for reducing the capital account. If the doctrine he had laid down were not in full effect and force, what would be the reason for this anxiety? Whence all these fears? For this, and for no other reason—that the Admiralty were well aware that if the money could not be properly expended before the 31st of March it would be lost to the great Spending Department altogether. Among the many good reasons for the Naval Defence Act was the prevention of these surrenders, so that if money could not be spent as provided within the year for shipbuilding it could be placed into the fund established under the Act and would not be lost to the Navy. The doctrine he had laid down was perfectly clear, and what, therefore, became of the doctrine of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he talked about unexpended balances being re-voted? The money was not there to be re-voted; and if it were, and were dealt with in that way, the Treasury would be instantly pulled up by the Comptroller and Auditor General. To carry out its own Rule the House had provided a double check; so that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer used his argument to show that the Naval Defence Act was not needed he (Sir R. Temple) ventured to controvert his statement. If the money was not to be surrendered, and not to be lost to the Spending Department there must be a Naval Defence Act, or something equivalent to it, otherwise the surrender necessarily took place, and there was no other way of preserving the money for the service of the Admiralty and the Navy. He hoped he might be excused for these observations, but it certainly seemed to him that this explanation was called for by the extraordinary argument used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

* said, he had given notice of his intention to move the reduction of the Vote by £2,579 for the salaries of five dockyard chaplains, but he would content himself with calling attention to the matter. He did not wish to interfere with the vested interests of the gentlemen who might now be enjoying their salaries as chaplains. They, no doubt, were entitled to expect that the length of the appointments to which they looked forward should not be in any way curtailed, and he did not desire to interfere with those gentlemen holding their appointments during the unexpired portion of their term. But he thought he was entitled—in fact, bound —to call attention to what seemed to him a way in which the public funds could in the future be justly and properly saved. Dockyard Members were not looked on with favour by the House, because they were always asking for money out of the Public Exchequer; but here was an occasion on which a Dockyard Member rose in order to attempt to save a sum to the National Purse. Hon. Members might have a kind of impression—the public generally, perhaps, had a kind of impression—that dockyard chaplains devoted themselves to the spiritual care of large numbers of men. They were looked on, probably, in the same way as chaplains of regiments, of workhouses, and of prisons. But, as a matter of fact, dockyard chaplains had little or nothing to do. The men employed in the dockyards lived in the town, and the town was well served, of course, not only with parish churches but with numerous places of worship, and all dockyard men had their spiritual wants provided for in the town. The only possible people for whom the dockyard chaplains were entertained were perhaps half-a-dozen of the highest officials who lived within the dockyard walls. These persons might possibly consider it necessary for their dignity to go to a church or chapel of their own, and to be administered to by a chaplain of their own, but except in the interest of half-a-dozen individuals no work save one or two services on Sunday could fall to the lot of these chaplains. If they were to interfere so as to earn their money, so to speak, by looking after the spiritual welfare of the dockyard labourers they would immediately come into contact and competition with the legitimate ministers of the district. The Church of England clergymen of the district would be the first to resent and repudiate all interference amongst their own flocks by the dockyard chaplain. He would suggest that if it was considered necessary that Sunday services should be performed in the dockyard chapel for the benefit of the Admiral Superintendent, and, perhaps, three other dockyard officials, it would be possible, instead of paying a dockyard chaplain somewhere about £500 a year, to allow a local clergyman £100 a year or £150 to appoint a curate to do the work for which curate parochial duties could be found during the week. He trusted that someone representing the Admiralty would promise that some inquiry would be made into this subject; that these sinecures would not continue in the future as in the past, but that as the terms of office or service of the chaplains in occupation ran out they would not be renewed.

said, that perhaps he might be allowed to deal with the question so modestly introduced by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Pembroke Boroughs. He need hardly say that he should be doing himself great injustice if he concealed his personal sympathy with the object the hon. Member had in view. Speaking for the Admiralty, he might safely say that the inquiry which had been asked for would certainly not be refused. But the hon. Member raised a much larger question than he was aware of, and that was the disestablishing of the Church, not only in the dockyards, but elsewhere. The hon. Member dealt only with the five chaplains in the home yards, but the Estimates provided for nine chaplains, and if he undertook inquiry it would include the nine chaplaincies; and it seemed to him that in principle it would extend to the whole system of chaplaincies in the Navy and in the Army. Some time ago he stated, in answer to the hon. Member for Northampton, that the cost of the ecclesiastical system in the Navy was £33,253, and the corresponding expenditure for the Army was £58,160. If once an inquiry of this kind was begun it could not very well be kept within the limits laid down by the hon. Member, and that was what he meant when he said that the hon. Member had raised a large principle. He was not sure whether any saving would be effected by the arrangement suggested. The chaplains of the home yards were not in receipt of full pay altogether, but of a special allowance, as they were clergymen who had retired from the ecclesiastical services of the Navy, and all that would be saved would be the difference between their present allowance and the retirement allowance to which they were entitled from the Navy, which was very small. Altogether he was sorry that his hon. Friend had raised the question; but, so far as it had been raised, and within the limits to which it had been confined, he had only to repeat the assurance which he had already given his hon. Friend—that the matter was receiving attention.

said, the Debate had so far continued on the financial part of the question that it was with some hesitation that he brought it back to the actual construction of ships, of which he might say he knew something. A great deal had been said about the way the money was divided, and also as to whether it would have been better to pass a Naval Defence Act for five years, or that the money should be provided each year, for the work intended to be done in that particular year. But if the Government were really serious in their programme, and if they really meant to carry out the additions to the Navy which they talked about, there could be little difference between a programme for five years such as that provided by the late Conservative Government and a programme provided for each separate year. The great question for the country was that the Navy should be sufficiently strong to meet all the necessary requirements; that it should be sufficient to meet the Navies of any two countries in the world combined, and that under any circumstances whatsoever, or any complications that might arise, we should be able to hold our own. The programme sketched out by the Government was one that had met with the approbation of both Parties in the House, and also with the approbation of everyone in the country who took an interest in the subject. Possibly, it was not the less popular because it professed on the face of it to do considerably more than it actually performed. For instance, there was no doubt that the Magnificent, for which the Government had taken credit this year, belonged really to last year. Although he agreed with the programme of the Government for strengthening the Navy, he did not know that he was altogether satisfied from the shipbuilders' point of view with the particular ships and the particular models and dimensions of them which the Government proposed to construct. Some time ago a very lengthened discussion on the subject was inaugurated by his Colleague the hon. Member for North Belfast, and he was replied to by the hon. Member for Cardiff. A discussion of that sort was too technical to interest the House, and he did not intend to go into it again. He wished to say, however, that he was not willing to agree in all respects with what his Colleague the hon. Member for North Belfast had suggested as to increasing the length of ships. One thing that struck him in the discussion was that while the hon. Member for North Belfast discussed what would be the best model for steaming ships, the hon. Member for Cardiff went entirely on the point as to what was the best model for fighting ships. He thought that whatever was the best model with respect to the dimensions for the Mercantile Marine, the same dimensions would hold good in the Navy, though there were, of course, other contingencies that must be considered in the construction of a man-of-war. Vessels in the Navy must be fully qualified as fighting ships, but, at the same time, he thought the question of steam power should be well considered by the Government. If we were a Power like Russia, and could concentrate our ships for the defence of our coasts, and had not to look after colonies all over the world and commerce all over the world, then possibly it would be right to give all our attention to the fighting power of our ships. The noble Lord who was the First Lord of the Admiralty in the late Government took the view that we should be supplied with fighting ships concentrated in the Channel to defend our coasts in the case of a possible attack. With that, however, he did not agree. We had too many interests all over the world to abandon altogether the question of the steaming qualifications of our ships. Questions such as how much coal a ship could carry and with what speed it could go were of enormous importance, considering that we had interests to protect all over the world, and he would press on the Admiralty that in their present programme, or any future programme they might devise, they should give that matter their most serious consideration. That brought him to the question as to how far they were justified in throwing the whole programme of construction on the officials of the Admiralty. He knew those men were thoroughly competent for the work. He knew of no one better qualified for designing or constructing a battleship than the present Chief Constructor of the Navy, and that gentleman was not only advised but controlled, to a great extent, by the Lords of the Admiralty, and naval men of experience. He had no doubt that, in their way, they gave the Chief Constructor of the Navy their best assistance; but he had always found that, when people were engaged in a certain business, they were reluctant to receive control from the outside, and they were prone to imagine that they were the only people who knew anything about the business. It would be a great advantage to people engaged in mercantile construction to get advice from people who were similarly engaged, and, therefore, he thought that the suggestion that a Committee, or a Commission of some kind, should be appointed to superintend the naval programme of the Government, and to give their opinions on the plans drawn up by the Admiralty, was one that was well worthy the consideration of the Government. There were many points of a ship which could be improved besides its points for offensive and defensive purposes. He was not fit to give advice with regard to-fighting ships, because that was not his business, and he had nothing to do with guns and armour; but so far as the principles of construction were concerned, he believed that if the suggested Commission were appointed great advantage would follow from having on it men who were engaged in the Mercantile Marine. Then there was the question as to whether it was desirable to continue the transport ships between this country and India, or hand over the work of transport to ships of the Mercantile Marine. It was now some years since those trans- port ships were built, and he did not believe any ships in the Navy had done their work so well. But they were now outworn, and the time had come for the Government to make up their minds whether they would build other transport ships or adopt the plan of chartering ships of the Mercantile Marine for the work when required. He doubted whether any ship of the Mercantile Marine would break down four times in succession on the voyage to India as the Malabar had done. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty had said that the ship had worked for 26 years; that she had done her duty well and ought to be excused now. But the right hon. Gentleman had not told them that it was not the ship that had broken down, but the engines, and that though the ship was 26 years old, the engines were put in about six years ago, and yet, despite that fact, the ship had broken down four times in succession. The right hon. Gentleman had also told them that it cost £6 more to send a transport to India than to charter a Mercantile Marine ship for the purpose. It would be a great mistake for the Government to build more transport vessels, especially as the Mercantile Marine had greatly changed since the time the transport ships were built. In those days the Mercantile Marine vessels capable of conveying troops to India were very few in number, whereas now the Government could get any number they liked. The gallant Admiral the Member for Eastbourne had urged that the advantage of the transports was that they afforded a capital training for the men employed on them. But he thought that if the money devoted to transports were spent on coal in sending ships like the Resolution to sea in bad weather, there need be greater advantages to the crew than were derived from training in transports. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, who he was very sorry to see was not in his place, had made strong charges about the treatment of men in the Navy. He had mixed a great deal with men in the Navy, but he had not the personal knowledge which would enable him to contradict the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, though he was fully convinced from what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty and from other hon. Gentlemen of experience in naval affairs, that those charges of under-feeding and ill-usage could hardly be borne out by facts. The hon. Member also said that we would have to go to the Mercantile Marine to recruit our Navy if any sudden emergency arose; and the hon. Member regretted—a regret in which everyone would join—that so many sailors employed in the Mercantile Marine were not Englishmen, but foreigners. There was, however, a great deal to be said in excuse for British shipowners, who preferred to employ foreign sailors rather than sailors of their own country. There was no doubt whatever about it, that the foreign sailors cost less than the English sailors; but besides that, the foreigners were more amenable to discipline, and, above all, they were not subject to those continuous strikes which interfered with the men of this country. He would not enter into the question as to whether the strikes were justified or not; but he should point out that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough had been connected with the getting-up of more strikes than any man in the country; and when the hon. Member considered that one of the results of those strikes was the employment of foreign sailors in preference to British sailors, perhaps he would cease to complain of the action of the shipowners. If the Government carried out the points he had suggested they would win general approval.

* said, in a multitude of counsellors there was said to be safety. No one would dispute that there were a large number of counsels given in that House as to the way in which our ironclads should be constructed; but with all this advice our ironclads rolled over, turned turtle, and went to the bottom of the sea. He did not know anything about the construction of ironclads, but he did know that there was a great deal of unsatisfactory work carried on in our dockyards under the control of officers who knew very little about mechanical matters. He was convinced that the mistakes made in the dockyards would not be made in any private workshop. He particularly wished to say a few words about the treatment of the Naval Reserve men in the Island of Lewis. Before doing so, however, he should like to refer to the observations which were made on Tuesday night. The Member for St. George's (Mr. Goschen) was premature in his remark that no Member below the Gangway on that side of the House objected to this large naval expenditure. He objected to this enormous expenditure. But what was his position? He was between the devil and the deep sea.

said, if he voted with the Opposition the interests of the constituents he represented would be ignored for another six years, while if he stood by the Government there was, at least, some chance of getting them to improve the state of things now existing. With regard to the Naval Reserve men, those in the Island of Lewis stood Al, but their treatment was bad. He could only account for it by the fact that they were so far removed from London—some 750 miles. They were, in his opinion, unfairly treated by the Naval Authorities, and badly looked after by their officers. These men, as the hon. Member for Eastbourne had stated in the House only a short time ago, formed the very best class from which our Navy could be supplied. No better men for our ships could be found anywhere than the fishermen of the North, who, he submitted, would be willing enough to join the Navy if a fair inducement to do so were offered them. He strongly endorsed the remarks made by that hon. Member, to the effect that the Admiralty should exhaust the supply of respectable fishermen before they took sailors from the slums of the East End and the dock population of our large seaport towns.

* said, he wished to say a few words in reference to some remarks which had been made by his right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty with regard to some statements he had addressed to the House on the buoyancy of ships of the Admiralty class. His right hon. Friend had represented that the advantage of this class of ships was recognised by the Committee presided over by Lord Dufferin.

said, in reply to the hon. Member for Cardiff, the suggestion of Lord Dufferin's Committee was in favour of the concentration of armour on the citadel as distinguished from the ends of the ship. He had not said that Lord Dufferin's Committee recommended ships of the Admiral type, but a concentration of armour on the citadel. His hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland asked a question as to whether any policy had been laid down by the Admiralty as to the number of men in the Navy in time of peace and in time of war. On this point he would refer the hon. Member for Sunderland to the opening portion of his statement made on March 20, wherein this question was fully dealt with, both as to permanent list and Royal Naval Reserve, and when he explained that the matter had been well considered by the Manning Committee of the Admiralty. The points mentioned were not being overlooked; they were the subject of close and careful consideration by the Admiralty. As to the greater need of harbour and dock accommodation in the Mediterranean, the Admiralty were alive to the necessity, as was shown by the steps that were being taken to improve the harbour and provide a dock at Gibraltar. The question of large and small ships had been discussed with great ability by hon. Members on both sides, but he must refrain from entering into consideration of the subject that evening. The Admiralty had also been giving close attention for some time to experiments for coaling ships at sea. A considerable advance had been made in this direction, though he admitted that much still remained to be learned on that subject, and it would therefore be necessary to carry those experiments further. It appeared to be thought that battleships and men-of-war could not get from one port to another without coaling at sea, but he reminded hon. Members of the remarkable fact that the Royal Sovereign steamed from this country to Gibraltar at an average rate of 15 knots, and at the end of the voyage had burned only one-third of her coal. The fact showed how much advantage was gained by that large coal capacity which it was, and had been, the policy of the Admiralty to provide in our ships. He would leave the question as to the efficiency of that part of the Navy which had muzzle-loading guns in the position in which it had been left after the answer of the noble Lord the late First Lord of the Admiralty, to which he had nothing now to add. The hon. Member for East Cork had raised the question of Haul-bowline. But it was not the policy of the Government any more than it had been the policy of the late Board of Admiralty to convert Haulbowline into a building yard. It was their opinion that there were enough building yards already, and they did not propose to establish another at Haulbowline. They were continually making it more efficient if they could for the repair of ships. They were anxious to continue that policy and to increase the appliances, so as to make the yard more useful. His hon. Friend had suggested that Ireland had not a fair share of expenditure of money. With regard to that, be could only say he regretted that the Irish firms were not more successful in obtaining contracts; but he congratulated Ireland on the fact that it had obtained an important contract in connection with one of our ships. The late First Lord of the Admiralty, judging from his criticism that evening, appeared to be a little difficult to please, if he would forgive him for saying so. Last year the noble Lord criticised the first-class cruisers, and now, when the Admiralty proposed to construct a number of second-class cruisers, he also criticised them. The noble Lord apparently wanted something between the two. He had indicated that there were newer types in the Admiralty programme, and he must ask the noble Lord to wait a little; but he was glad to find that generally the proposals as to the Talbots and the Powerful and the Terrible had met with the approval of the Committee. It had been asked what became in past years of money not spent on contracts. He was not responsible for anything before the end of August, 1892, but before that time money not spent had either been diverted to other Votes with Treasury sanction or surrendered, and to say that there was an utter want of financial control was not just to the Admiralty officials. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of the diversion of new construction money from one class of ship to another. But he would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that this might be a most urgent necessity on grounds of public security. No doubt it was desirable that the sanction of the Treasury should be obtained; but when such a step was necessary as a matter of policy, or for safety of our ships and the preservation of security and peace, a Government which shrank from the responsibility of such a change in their proposals and in the use of the money voted would be culpable; and although he agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the earliest information should be given to Parliament, a Government which, simply on a point of financial strictness, refused, from fear of being called to account, to take a step which was pressed upon them by their naval advisers, or by strategical necessity, would be wanting in its duty to the House and the country. The Government had done its duty, and he was confident that Parliament would support them. If the facts pressed on Lord Spencer's attention by his naval advisers could be fully stated to the House, no Member would hesitate in believing that it was clearly the duty of the Government to apply the money voted by Parliament towards providing a larger number of torpedo-boat destroyers than had been applied for in the Estimates. A great deal has been said against the action of the Government in spending money on new ships not provided for in the annual naval programme. I do not want to be controversial, but I am bound to point out that those who went before the present Government pursued a similar course. In the Statement which he issued explanatory ' of the Naval Estimates for 1888–89 the noble Lord opposite said, with reference to the advancement of ships laid down in 1887–88—

"It was found to be advantageous for the economical employment and distribution of workmen that four ships not contained in the Estimates of 1887–88, and additional to the authorised programme, should be laid down and commenced during that financial year. Those vessels were required for special service and reliefs, and consisted of three gunboats (of the Rattler class modified) and a paddle steamer for surveying service."

The expenditure on those four vessels amounted to £30,000, but the gross liability thereby incurred was £150,000. It is not, therefore, open to the noble Lord or his colleagues to find fault with the present Board of Admiralty for pursuing a course on all-fours with that which their own Government adopted in diverting money voted for other purposes to the building of ships which were not mentioned in the Estimates, and for which no money was specially provided by Parliament. But I have another case to mention. What I have mentioned was done by the late Government at the commencement of their term of Office, and at the end of it they ordered four torpedo-boat destroyers, while preliminary arrangements were made for four others, the total cost being £210,000, and there was no Parliamentary authority for this liability, the greater part of which fell on future years. I do not blame the late Government for taking that course. On the contrary, I say they were perfectly right in what they did on those occasions, but, in these circumstances, it is certainly not for the noble Lord to find fault with the present Government for having acted in like manner. Reference has been made to the advantages which were derived from a Naval Defence Act in the way of speed in the building of ships, but I venture to say that without an Act of Parliament the speed of building attained under the Naval Defence Act is, to say the least, being maintained, and I hope it may be increased. The right hon. Gentleman also referred to financial irregularities at the end of the financial year in order to get rid of surplus money, and said that the Naval Defence Act diminished the risk of these irregularities. Under the efficient system of check which now exists, I do not believe there will be many more financial irregularities, and with good management the surpluses to be surrendered at the end of the year will be small. There was one remark made by my hon. Friend the Member for the Kingston Division which was not characterised by that accuracy I would expect from one who has been so long a member of the Public Accounts Committee and is now its Chairman. He seems to think that a Government Department knows on the 31st of March what is to be its surplus. It cannot know on that date what will be its surplus, because the accounts are not closed until very much later in the year, and until they are closed no one can tell what is the surplus. Sometimes it is only much later that the discovery is made that there has been an excess. As to the appeal which the hon. Baronet has made as to the accuracy of the version given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the surrender of surpluses, I think it ought to be addressed to the Treasury, and if the hon. Gentleman goes to the Treasury he will find that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly correct. It disposes of the public delusion—a delusion which exists in the minds of some people who have been connected with the Spending Departments—that the money which cannot be spent in the financial year goes on the 31st of March of that year at once to the relief of the National Debt. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the money can be used if wanted in the course of the next financial year, and a Supplementary Vote is asked for. ["No, no!"] I have the statement here and can quote it. It assumes that a sum of £200,000 has not been spent in the year 1893–4, and is surrendered, and says—

"But as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has provided for the full naval grants in 1894–5, it is open to the Admiralty to present a Supplementary Estimate for a re-vote of that sum of £200,000, (supposing that the Admiralty can spend that money in 1894–5 in addition to their grants for that year), without upsetting his arrangements."

I pass from that. Perhaps, as my right hon. Friend (Sir W. Harcourt) is here, he will forgive me if I use a phrase about the speech of the noble Lord opposite. I think the noble Lord began his speech with a little display of what I may call anti-Harcourt fireworks. I do not think they should be taken very seriously. He was endeavouring to make out that there was a great difference between the opinion of my right hon. Friend (Sir W. Harcourt) and that of the rest of the Government. He endeavoured to show that the programme which it had been my duty to describe on behalf of the Government had disappeared. Well, that sort of work had to be done by gentlemen who want to fire off a few fireworks. The noble Lord asked who was to be believed—the Admiralty or the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I repeat—and I am sure my right hon. Friend will approve what I am saying—that the five years' scheme has been approved of by the Government, and will be carried out by us if we have the opportunity. The discovery which the noble Lord opposite has made, that there is any unwillingness to carry out this scheme, or any intention not to carry it out, is a mere mare's nest. What the noble Lord alluded to was a mere abstract argument used by my right hon. Friend directed to this—that a Naval Defence Act might, under the hypothetical circumstances he stated to the House, be inconvenient to the Government. Upon that hypothetical case the noble Lord founded the theory that, in spite of the solemn declaration made in this House on behalf of the Government, they did not mean seriously to carry out their programme. He fell into a great inaccuracy in saying that if a Bill to alter a Naval Defence Act were sent up to the House of Lords, the Lords could do nothing but pass it. It is perfectly true that if it were a Money Bill the Lords could not amend it, but they would be perfectly able to throw it out. The noble Lord referred to the necessity of having a business-like procedure. As my right hon. Friend has already said, we have reverted to the old procedure. It is a procedure which worked well for years. There may be a difference of opinion about it, but that it is an unbusiness-like procedure I do not admit. There is one part of the noble Lord's speech into which I cannot follow him. He indulged in several guesses as to the dimensions of the programme of the Government, and entered into calculations, which were based upon those guesses, as to the postponed liability of the Government. I will only say to him: "In vain is the net spread." My right hon. Friend explained to the House that the Government on grounds of high policy have determined that it is better not to announce to the House more than what ships are to be commenced in the present year, and what amount of money we ask the House to vote. The reasons for that policy have already been given to the Committee, and I decline to be drawn into a further state- ment on the subject. I think I may now appeal to the Committee, considering the very long discussion that has taken place —nearly two days before Easter and two days now—to pass this Shipbuilding Vote, and to enable us to go on to discuss some very important questions that still remain to be considered on the Works Vote. It is extremely important that we should obtain the Works Vote to-night. That Vote contains a very large number of new and important proposals. None of them can be commenced until the money has been voted by Parliament. If the money is not voted now, early in the Session, valuable time will be lost during the best and longest days of the year, and on that ground I appeal to the Committee to give us the Works Vote.

said, hon. Members had been told that they would have an opportunity on these two evenings of discussing the naval programme of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir U. Kay-Shuttleworth), who had addressed the Committee at considerable length, had entirely abstained until the conclusion of his speech from making any reference to that programme. The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir W. Harcourt) had made it plain and distinct that the Government declined to allow the House of Commons to enter into their confidence, and that they were asking the House blindfold to assent to a programme which they refused to explain. The main objection to the policy of the Government was that they intended to bind themselves simply to the expenditure that could be carried out in one year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the House of Commons had no right to bind itself beyond one year—

:I beg pardon, but I have been slightly misunderstood on this point. The Government have a plan extending over several years, but they will not put out of their own power or hand over to anybody else the right to deal with the programme as they think fit at any time. That is what I stated.

said, his point was that, although the Government had a policy for five years, they asked the House to provide money for only one year's work, and would not explain what the five years' work was to be. It was, of course, impossible to discuss the naval policy of the Government with any effect if that policy was to be confined to one year.

said, that after the very controversial speech delivered by the Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir U. Kay-Shuttle-worth) and the tone in which it was delivered it was necessary that a word should be said from the Opposition side of the House. As to what had been said about the diversion of a certain sum of money by the Admiralty from one purpose to another, no one wanted for a moment to traverse the right of the Admiralty under circumstances of urgency having a free hand to extend or alter their shipbuilding programme, but it was certainly necessary that the House should be informed at the earliest possible moment of the exercise of that right. He believed the 20 extra torpedo-boats to which reference had been made were laid down many mouths ago during the time the House was in Session, but no communication whatever was made to the House of the intention to lay them down. What he complained of was not that the Admiralty should have laid them down, but that they should have laid them down at the cost of the more important battleships. If the extra boats were needed a Supplementary Estimate ought to have been brought in, so that the authority of Parliament could be obtained. It had been said that his noble Friend (Lord G. Hamilton) took similar action. The action of his noble Friend, however, in laying down additional ships had the effect not of curtailing but of adding to the programme approved by Parliament. The six additional torpedo-boats laid down by the late Government were constructed for the experimental purpose of ascertaining what was the best class of machinery to have in them. There seemed to have been a serious misunderstanding with reference to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said concerning the Admiralty surpluses. There was all the difference in the world between having the power to use un- expended balances, and having to go to the House of Commons for a Supplementary Estimate.

:I do not want to have any misunderstanding on the point. It has been my fault entirely that there has been any misunderstanding. When I spoke of re-voting the money, I meant re-voting on a Supplementary Estimate.

went on to say that he and others had understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say, when dealing with the question of the Naval Defence Act, that circumstances might arise which might make it desirable, in the interests of the taxpayers, that the expenditure which had been contemplated on the Navy should not be undertaken or should be postponed. The whole object of the Naval Defence Act was to prevent any Chancellor of the Exchequer being able to interfere with expenditure on the Navy owing to any change of financial policy. He had clearly understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allude to the possibility of being able to reduce the expenditure on the Navy as one of the advantages of not having a Naval Defence Act.

did not think the Secretary to the Admiralty had thrown any light on the very startling doctrine laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the money voted one year, and unexpended in that year, could be applied in relief of expenditure of a cognate character in the ensuing year. He wished to point out that under the Act of Parliament. 38 & 39 Vict., c. 45, the Treasury had to pay surpluses over to the National Debt Commissioners. He would like to know what possible connection with this matter any Supplementary Estimate could possibly have? A Supplementary Estimate was simply to defray any extra cost incurred during that financial year. The Committee would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would tell them whether their view was correct, and how the discrepancy pointed out by his hon. Friend in the past financial year had been properly met under the Act of Parliament?

said, he had already explained the Supplementary Estimate, and did not think he could usefully occupy the time of the House in going further into the matter.

pointed out that the Vote would not be supplementary unless it were taken before the 31st of March.

Vote agreed to.

2. £2,294,000, Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—Materiel.

said, it had been his intention to make some inquiry as to the character of the armour-plates provided for ships now building, but as he understood that the House desired to proceed to another subject, he would not press the point now if the Secretary to the Admiralty would place him and the House in possession of evidence that the result of the test to which the armour had been put in this country was satisfactory.

* said, he would be very happy to give the hon. Member any information in his power. The experiments with regard to armour had been fully considered, and the hon. Member would find that the results were satisfactory. Other facts could be stated showing that the very best description of armour suitable for the ships had been adopted.

was well acquainted with the document referred to, and the conclusions there arrived at were emphatically traversed in official communications made to the United States Government.

said, the hon. Member was quite right in saying that the House wanted to know something about the matter. The arrangement come to was that the Government should get the Dockyard Vote and the Vote for Works by 12 o'clock, and there was still an hour and a half for discussion.

said, he had been asked to take the Mutiny Bill at an early hour, and he hoped that the Votes might be taken by half-past 11, so that the discussion on that Bill might commence then.

said, considering the peculiar circumstances under which this great programme was brought before the House, he thought it was a great concession to give the two Votes mentioned by the end of the evening; and, knowing that some of his hon. Friends wished to speak on three Votes which involved an expenditure of ÂŁ4,000,000, he did not see how the discussion could terminate by half-past 11. If the Government preferred to leave over the second Vote in order to take the Army Bill at half-past 11, he was quite ready to agree to that course.

said, he had made the appeal to the House, because he observed that nobody except the right hon. Gentleman rose to speak on the Vote before the Committee. If the Vote was taken now there would still be an hour for the discussion of the remaining Vote. But he did not desire to press the matter against the wish of the House.

said, he was quite prepared to go on now. What he had to say was upon a matter of considerable importance, but it would not take long.

understood that the Army (Annual) Bill could be taken at any time after 12 o'clock. It had been so laid down by the Speaker.

said, it was distinctly understood that the Army(Annual) Bill would be taken at an early hour, and half-past 11 could not be called early. He trusted the Government would give some indulgence.

confirmed the statement of his hon. Friend. The promise was that the Bill would be taken at a reasonable hour. Half-past 11 was not a reasonable hour, quite apart from any question of pledge given.

said, he thought it would be admitted that if any mistake was made by Her Majesty's Government in this matter the consequences would be very serious, and the Committee might well expend a little time in considering them. If Her Majesty's ships were to be armed with plates which the guns of other countries could pierce, and if British guns could not pierce the armour plates of foreign ships, it would be much better not to build any more ships, but devote the money to some other purpose. The total additional cost for Harvey nickel-steel plates was only 2 per cent. He had no interest in nickel, but there could be no doubt as to which was superior. America, Austria, France, and probably Russia, after the most exhaustive tests, had adopted nickel-steel Harvey plates. He referred the Committee to the report in The Times of a lecture delivered by a staff officer of the Austrian engineers, where it was stated that the nickel-steel plates were the best now known. That was also the verdict of an officer of the United States Navy. It was shown that nickel steel Harveyized had always given better results than plain steel similarly treated, and that the nickel steel was undoubtedly the best for naval purposes. Yet it was plain steel plates which the Government had adopted for the new vessels of the Navy. An Official Report recently made to the United States Government of experiments with plates composed of two kinds of steel stated that unquestionably the nickel plate Harveyized was the best armour plate ever tested. In France, also, similar experiments bad been made, and the results, according to a Report from the Creuzot Works, which he could show the right hon. Gentleman, were of a like character, and strongly in favour of the nickel steel. The Committee had heard from the hon. Member for North Belfast, in the discussion on the Navy Estimates, how errors had been previously made in connection with our ships of war through our Governments neglecting to take advantage of the results of experiments in foreign countries, and he feared the Government might fall into error in regard to the armour-plates for the new ships unless they had the most certain evidence that the description of plates they had adopted were the best they could obtain for the purpose. He had been informed that the Government had given orders for armament in connection with the new vessels to certain makers of armour-plates. Experiments in connection with armour-plates were very expensive to a private manufacturer. The Government could not expect a private manufacturer to adopt more expensive means for the production of other kinds of plates when he could sell those for which he had the necessary means of production and as long as the Government continued to buy them. The difficulty of finding manufacturers in this country who could do in regard to experiments what some foreign manufacturers were now doing had probably had something to do with the decision at which the Government had arrived with regard to armour-plates. But if this decision had been adopted for the sake of saving only 2 per cent. in the cost of the construction of the new ships and at the expense of real efficiency, a great mistake had been made. At any rate, looking at the vast importance of the subject, he felt that he had no need to make any apology for having called attention to the subject, especially in view of the facts which he had brought under the attention of the Committee.

inquired whether the right hon. Gentleman meant that the Army (Annual) Bill would not come on that night at all?

:Yes.

Vote agreed to.

ÂŁ4,650,000, Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad.

said that, as had already been stated by the Secretary to the Admiralty, this Vote contained very many new works of importance, and the same criticism was applicable to it which had already been extended to proposals for shipbuilding and new construction, that the amount taken in the present year was altogether below the proportion it should bear to the total amount of money to be expended. This Vote was even more remarkable in that respect than the Shipbuilding Vote. As had been pointed out frequently in the course of that Debate, in the Shipbuilding Vote only £1,360,000 was to be expended during the present year, and taking a large number of the more important items of the works voted, the House would scarcely credit it, but it appeared on the Estimates, that out of items of new works amounting to £4,048,000, there was only £122,000 down in the Estimates for the coming year. That disproportion was utterly absurd. It justified the charge which he brought on the previous night, that these naval proposals both for ships and other works were more in the nature of a public advertisement that the Government proposed to do something for the Navy than in the nature of a real, practical and feasible programme. For dredging there was £950,000 proposed, only £85,000 was to be spent this year. That was, he thought, about one-twelfth, but that was the most favourable of all the items to which he had referred. Take the case of home barracks, put down for £350,000, only £1,000 was to be spent during the coming year. The thing was absurd. Take the case of the Keyham Basin and Docks, the importance of which was generally admitted; £2,000,000 was put down in the Estimates, only £1,000 was to be spent in the coming year. Again, the proposal was absurd. Take the case of the two extensions of the mole at Gibraltar, one was to cost £85,000 and the other £320,000. For the first, £20,000 was taken, and for the second only £1,000 was taken. For the most important proposal of all—namely, the proposal to construct a naval dock at Gibraltar, £360,000 was to be taken, and only £1,000 was put down in the Vote of this year. Of all these items, amounting to £4,048,000, for new works, to suppose that only £122,000 was to be spent in the coming year was to reduce the Estimates to a practical absurdity. In fact, the Government had thrown at their heads as many proposals as they could in this way in order apparently to get credit for their nominal proposals, and really devise no practical arrangements for carrying them out. The House had already heard a very instructive dispute between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty on the one hand, and the noble Lord the late First Lord of the Admiralty and the late Financial Secretary on the other hand, and at one moment they had heard the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty denouncing the hon. Baronet the Member for Kingston, and reproving him because as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee he had made an unjust criticism on the financial arrangements of the Government. The next moment the Chancellor of the Exchequer got up and threw over his colleague, in despite of his egregious reference to anti-Harcourt fireworks, and explained that the mistake was his. They understood from the result of the dispute between these gentlemen, and the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, that there was no practical provision for these works, either in shipbuilding or in the construction of new dockyards and barracks, arranged by the Government for the future. He wished to ask a few questions in regard to the new dock at Gibraltar. They understood that the dock was to be constructed by excavating a space out of the New Mole Parade, and it was the opinion of the late Board of Admiralty that that was the most economical site, and the one which offered the best protection from attack by sea. There was no doubt that a dock cut out of the New Mole Parade would be practically safe from shells fired from the open sea, and very largely protected also from attack from a south-westerly direction. Of course, there was no position on the western or the south-western side of the Gibraltar rock which could be protected from land fire. He would like to hear something from the Civil Lord as to the extensions of the mole. It was well known that all the naval authorities regarded the extension as of first-class importance. It was necessary in these days, when there would be torpedo attacks, that there should be some shelter provided for our ships. He understood that the existing mole was to be lengthened by 1,200 feet, and that the cost of the work would be £85,000. He supposed the lengthening was to be in a straight line with the existing mole. Two thousand feet of protection would give shelter to a considerable number of the vessels of the Mediterranean Squadron. There was some information wanted with regard to the second extension, which was to cost £320,000, of which only £1,000 was taken in this year's Estimate. He understood this second extension was in reality to take the form of a separate mole, and he desired to know whether that mole was to be constructed in a straight line with the existing mole, or whether it was to be constructed transversely? Then, he would ask the Government whether they were satisfied that it could be used as & mercantile, coaling station? Every hon. Gentleman who had visited Gibraltar was well aware that its importance as a coaling station was increasing year by year. He thought the last Return showed that 700,000 tons of coals were shipped during the last year on board vessels of the Mercantile Marine at Gibraltar. This coal was stored in a number of old hulks scattered about the upper portion of Gibraltar Harbour, and in case of war these hulks could be easily destroyed by an attack from two or three hostile torpedo-boats; and it was of the utmost importance that some arrangement should be made, now that Gibraltar was to be recognised as a great naval dockyard, for the coaling, not only of men-of-war, but of vessels of the Merchant Navy. If there was proper coaling arrangements at Gibraltar there was no doubt that a much larger number of vessels would call there in future than at present. He did not say that was altogether desirable, regarding Gibraltar as a naval and military fortress, but it was necessary, having regard to the inferiority of our Mediterranean Fleet, that in case of war the squadron should retire upon Gibraltar for reinforcements. Undoubtedly any great naval conflict of the future would take place in waters close to Gibraltar, and if we lost command of the Mediterranean our merchant ships would not be able to proceed to India and the Far East through the Mediterranean, but must go down the West Coast of Africa, and take the old route to India and the East. That consideration gave importance to Gibraltar not only as a workshop, but it would give to it vastly greater importance as a secure and efficient coaling station for our Mercantile Marine. That, he thought, must be perfectly clear to every Member of the Committee. He did not propose to trouble the Committee any further with regard to this question. He congratulated the Government that they were making a beginning with this important matter, and he only wished they had seen their way to spend more money than the infinitesimal sum of £1,000. He would rather have seen a slight diminution of the proposal for new shipbuilding if they could have succeeded in advancing the works at Gibraltar; but he would be content with urging upon the Government the great importance of the considerations he had laid before the House.

* said, he thought he was justified in taking up a short space of time in order to bring before the Committee and the country the extraordinary way in which Pembroke Dock had been neglected by the Government. He had no desire to deprecate the spending of money on other dockyards, but he did want to urge upon the Admiralty that they ought to spend more money in the development of Pembroke Yard. He was very much struck by a remark made by the late First Lord of the Admiralty, when he said we had only three ports—Chatham, Devonport, and Portsmouth — and he wondered whether the noble Lord knew that Milford Haven could swallow up the three and think little of it. Milford Haven, with its depth of water and position on the coast, was a port of refuge of the first importance. The capacity of the dockyard for the building of ships was very great, but the facilities for the completion and fitting of new ships and for the repair of injured ships were very small, and there was a want of proper jetty accommodation. The Hobbs Point Jetty was situated three-quarters of a mile from the dockyard, and the whole of the material required for fitting up a vessel, and the whole of the men employed in completing a vessel, had to be taken backwards and forwards in order that the work should be done. That was so much wasted time and money. All the machinery which had to be put on board a ship after launching had to be brought first to the dockyard and landed there, and then had to be reloaded on barges and taken to Hobbs Point, there to be put on board the vessel. This was a case of enormous waste of time and money. Again, the power of the sheer legs at Hobbs Point was not sufficient to put the largest boilers into vessels, and the consequence was that a vessel bad on one occasion, and probably others would have on other occasions, to be sent away elsewhere to have the work done. All these matters were perhaps tiresome in detail, but they were at the same time matters of practical importance, and matters in respect of which a good deal of money would be saved if the dockyard was put into a thorough state of efficiency. The necessity of these works had been admitted and sanctioned by successive Governments since 1884, but nothing had been done. He thought the Committee would agree with him that a matter of this kind was one to which the attention of the Government ought to be drawn.

said, that in view of the fact that the Vote had to be taken that night, he thought the Government ought to reconsider their position and give the Committee some information as to the immense works which were contemplated upon these vessels. They were being made liable for an enormous sum. That sum of £4,000,000 was to be taken, and there was very little information in the statement issued by the First Lord. He thought the Admiralty ought to tell them what was intended to be done. The Committee was asked to hurry this Vote through without anything like sufficient information. The Government could not complain of the hours that had been devoted to it. Here there were a number of items in respect of which they had no information. If they were really necessary why was so little money taken for them? Something had been said earlier in the evening as to liabilities imposed by one Government upon its successors. He must say that, so far as these liabilities were concerned, they would come upon them in future years to a very large extent, and how they were to be carried forward he did not know. The total amount for new works was £4,000,000, and it was stated that £129,000 was to be taken in this year. All that might be necessary or not necessary, and possible or not possible; but he thought they ought to know from the Government whether it was absolutely necessary to begin the works this year, or whether the execution of them could not be delayed until the actual money for them could be found. He much doubted the utility of taking such small sums of money for such large undertakings. Supposing the expenditure was spread over 10 years, it would be a sum of £400,000 in place of the £129,000. Now, it was said they had left certain legacies to their successors. When they left Office they left a liability of uncompleted works of £650,000, but if the present Government went out of Office in the present year they would leave for their successors about £4,500,000, which was a very large sum, and, therefore, Members in all parts of the House would think they were entitled to call attention to this. What he asked for now was that, at all events, the Government would give them some explanation as to these matters—-whether they thought them so absolutely necessary that they must be begun this year with these small amounts, or whether the whole question ought not to be allowed to stand over until such years when the money could really be found to complete the work. It appeared to him almost to be playing with these large undertakings to put down such very small sums as were put down for the present year, and he was surprised that more attention should not be given to works of this magnitude which involved such large amounts. The Admiralty would understand he did not dispute such works were indispensable, but every fair-minded man would acknowledge that they were entitled to more information.

said, he rose at once in response to the appeal made by the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down to give an explanation of the new items in this Vote. One remark made by the right hon. Gentleman he would like to revert to at once. He assumed that the Admi- ralty had only put down such works as they believed to be indispensable in the sense that they should be commenced at once, and that such progress should be made this year as could be made. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that was the principle on which the Admiralty had acted; this Vote, large as it was, they had cut down to the narrowest limits which they believed compatible with the safety of the Empire, and not a single item appeared that they did not believe was justified by the necessities of the case. In making what remarks he had to make he might revert to the questions put to him by the hon. Member for Sheffield. The hon. Gentleman, like the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and like the late Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, had fastened on this peculiarity in the present Vote, that while the total liabilities involved in it were very large the amount taken this year was comparatively small; they had all fastened on that and demanded an explanation. He did not know whether the late First Lord made that proposition.

said, he thought not, but the explanation of it was this. First of all, the Works Vote was a peculiar Vote, they could not begin any large new work without the sanction of the Treasury. Nothing could be done until that had been obtained, and that would not be given for large sums until sanctioned by the House of Commons, so that the Works Vote every year had this peculiarity—that the large works could not be commenced until sanctioned by a Vote of the House, and those who were responsible for the drafting of the Vote knew it might be very late in the year before the sanction of Parliament was obtained. The sanction of Parliament for this Vote last year was not obtained until the 20th of September, and it was a vast improvement upon previous years that they were allowed to take this Vote to-night. His second observation was that in new works they had, in addition to the delay which might be caused by the postponement of the Parliamentary Vote, a vast variety of preliminary operations that took up time, such as the preparation of plans, the taking out of quantities, the issuing of tenders, the visits of contractors to the site of the works, and the time taken for the consideration of the tenders, and when all that was done and the tenders had been considered and accepted, there were only two or three mouths left in an ordinary year for the contractor to work in.

:May I ask if the' plans for the expensive large works are provided already?

said, that in detail no doubt they were, but the Director was the responsible officer for all that. There was not a single item that had been reduced in consideration of any financial difficulty of the Government, or with the view of transferring to their successors any undue portion of the burden of these works. Every figure that appeared in the Estimates for the first time was placed there by the professional head of the Department of Works, and represented what in his opinion was the full amount that the contractors were likely to earn in the current year. Someone had said that to take ÂŁ1,000 for the dock at Gibraltar meant taking 360 years to complete, and that the extension at Keyham would take he did not know how many thousand years, because they took as little for the enormous work at Keyham as they did for Gibraltar. He would not refer to any controversial question raised, but he would remind the Committee that much objection had been taken by the Accountant Auditor General against the practice of voting money for Navy Votes and not spending it. That was a practice condemned upon authority, and the desirability of avoiding that practice in future was another reason that no more money should be voted than they were likely to expend. He could not retort on the right hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues that they followed precisely the same practice, for, so far as he was aware, they did not embark upon any great works, but the late Civil Lord, to whose Department this business belonged, made a curious slip when he declared that his own Government took ÂŁ1,000.

said, the hon. Gentleman declared it before and withdrew it to-night, but he referred to it as curious that the sum the hon. Member had in his mind was precisely the sum the present Government took. The hon. Gentleman was wrong in supposing his Government had taken it, but the sum that occurred to his mind was that sum of ÂŁ1,000.

said, he must explain to the hon. Gentleman the point he omitted last night and filled up to-night. Under the late Board of Admiralty the whole question of the Gibraltar Docks was most carefully examined by a Committee and a decision come to. It was a mistake with regard to the sum of ÂŁ1,000, but he never committed himself to the idea that that was the proper sum.

said, it was hardly worth while continuing the matter, it was made by inadvertence and was since explained away. The hon. Gentleman said his own Government took, two years ago, precisely that sum, and that might be used by him as an argument that it would be taken as the first time, but he need hardly say more on that point. Some one had said, "What is the use of beginning with such small sums at all? " Let him remind the Committee that even if they only took ÂŁ5 a tremendous step in advance would be gained, as they would then have obtained Parliamentary sanction and would be on a new status altogether; they would be somewhat in the position of having read a Bill a second time, they would have decided the principle of the works, however small the sum taken.

:Will the hon. Gentleman describe how, if we are to read it a second time, ÂŁ2,000,000 is to be expended this year, and what is the plan?

said, he would come to that in a moment. The next thing he was asked about was for some information about the Gibraltar Dock. The dock was to be a dock of the first class, capable of holding the largest ship they had, or were likely to have.

believed it would be cased, and the dock would be on a line with the new mole. Then as to the mole, what was called the new mole but which was really a very old mole, that as the Committee knew was being continued, but the new work that appeared on the Estimates for the first time was the separate mole to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. The length of the new mole would be some 1,600 feet; the extension of the existing mole would be 1,760 feet, making the estimated extension the whole length 3,300 feet in the line of the present so-called new mole.

:Are these new works to be faced or rough; will they be faced so that ships can go alongside?

said, they would be faced, and if the hon. Member would look at the maps it would give him more information. Then an hon. Member complained of Pembroke Dock being neglected in comparison with others. Far be it from him to say anything disrespectful of Milford Haven, but he must remind his hon. Friend of this—that these items were not, and ought not, to be determined by considerations of favour to one locality— that was entirely out of the question. It was a matter of proper consideration for the Admiralty. Acting on the advice of their professional advisers, they had placed the proposals before the House, and if Pembroke was omitted it was because other proposals were greater than could be made on behalf of Pembroke, but he could assure his hon. Friend that what he had said would not be lost sight of when occasion arose for making further proposals. He now came to the other points put to him by way of question across the Table. The most important work of all was the extension of Keyham Yard. They proposed to build that yard, and the work would extend over a period of 10 years. They proposed to build three docks of the first class.

An hon. MEMBER: Wet or dry?

said, they would be three draining docks of the first class, one entrance dock of the same capacity, 41 acres in area, eight tidal basins, certain steam-ship buildings, stores, wharfage, shops, and so on.

said, they would be for ships to go alongside of, but he was not quite sure.

said, the three docks were to be of the size of accommodating the largest ship, that was all he could say.

supposed so. This extension of Keyham Yard was a proposal that came to them on professional advice, and they were assured it was work that ought not to be postponed.

* said, it was understood this Vote would be taken tonight, and he would not detain the Committee, but this Vote they were asked to consent to did commit them to enormous liabilities. He believed the expenditure that was contained in the Estimate was necessary, and it was essential if this work was to be begun the Committee should give its consent to-night, nor did he object in certain instances to small sums being taken for big work, but the peculiarity here was there were such large numbers of big work in which case small sums were taken, and however anxious they might be to help the Admiralty the broad fact remained that by this Vote the proposal was to take fresh liabilities on their shoulders in addition to an existing liability. It was quite clear that to carry this work out a large increase in the Estimate would be necessary in subsequent years, and he would suggest that the hon. Gentleman should circulate some Paper so as to give an idea of what the financial arrangements were. One hardly liked to commit oneself to so large a share of liability unless one saw the means by which the money in subsequent years was to be raised. Whatever increase there might be in the Vote this year there must be a large increase in following years. He thought they ought to know that, and it would be advisable that other works should be mentioned that were to be commenced in the next few years. He saw no allusion to Hong Kong, and something must be done there within a year or two. Another thing was that a great deal of this expenditure was connected with stationary defences, and he would therefore ask, was this a joint scheme of the War Office and the Admiralty? Of course, under the circumstances, they assented to this Vote, but he did not think the explanation, such as it was, satisfactory; but if the hon. Gentleman would undertake to lay before them a document with further information it would do much to allay their objections.

said, he considered the demand of the noble Lord for a detailed statement was reasonable, and he hoped, after further consideration, that he might be in a position to comply with the demand of the noble Lord. He admitted the fairness of the noble Lord's conjecture, that in future the expenditure must be increased larger than it was at present, but however large the business in the future might be, the sum they proposed to take this year was very large as compared with the sums taken in years past; in fact, for a quarter of a century he did not think any Board of Admiralty had proposed to take so much.

said, before the matter was settled he would like to ask for some explanation of the making of a break water at a cost of ÂŁ140,000 when the money might be better utilised.

said, he did not think the hon. Member quite understood the present proposal, which was not to make a breakwater to form a harbour, but to lay down "dolphins " at the entrance of the present dock in order to prevent any hostile torpedo-boats coming in.

Vote agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at two of the clock; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Plumbers' Registration Bill. (No. 84.)

Second Reading

Order for Second Reading read.

*

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Lees Knowles. )

An hon. MEMBER: I object.

said, if it was not yet 12 o'clock he would like to ask for an explanation as to whether the Bill had met with the approval of the Government?

* said, that last year the Grand Committee on Trade adjourned the consideration of the Bill in order that a Minister from the Local Government Board might be appointed a member of the Committee and give advice and assistance from that Department. The Parliamentary Secretary was appointed, but unfortunately he was unable to attend.

It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed upon Thursday next.

Land Acts (Ireland)

Motion for a Select Committee

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the principles and practice of the Irish Land Commissioners and County Court Judges in carrying out the fair rent and free sale provisions of the Land Acts of 1870, 1881, and 1887, and of the Redemption of Rent Act of 1891, and to suggest such improvements in Law or practice as they may deem to be desirable."—( Mr. John Morley. )

:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland what he intends to do with regard to this Motion, in face of the persistent opposition of the Tory Party to the appointment of the Committee?

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill. (No. 6.)

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.

Message from the Lords

Statute Law Revision Bills, &c,— That they have appointed a Committee of Six Lords, to join with a Committee of this House, to consider all Statute Law Revision Bills and Consolidation Bills of the present Session; and request this House to appoint an equal number of its Members to be joined with the said Lords.

Law Library, Four Courts (Ireland) [Advance]

Resolution reported;

"That it is expedient to authorise the advance, out of the Consolidated Fund, of any sum necessary to meet any deficiency in the fund of the suitors in the Supreme Court in Ireland under any Act of the present Session to authorise an advance out of the general fund of monies belonging to suitors of the Supreme Court in Ireland for the purposes of the Library used by the Bar of Ireland at the Four Courts, Dublin."

Resolution agreed to.

Land Tenure (Ireland) Bill. (No. 7.)

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

Solicitors' Examination Bill. (No. 112.)

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 2.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

Building Societies (No. 2) Bill

On Motion of Mr. Herbert Gladstone, Bill to amend the Building Societies Acts, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Gladstone, Mr. Secretary Asquith, and Mr. George Russell.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 157.]

Education (Scotland) (Code), 1894

Copy presented,—of Code of Regulations for Day Schools, with Appendices (1894), of the Scotch Education Department [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (Scotland) (Evening Schools) (Code), 1894

Copy presented,—of Code of Regulations for Evening Continuation Schools, with Schedule and Appendices (1894), of the Scotch Education Department [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Local Government Board (Ireland)

Copy presented,—of Special Report of the Board in relation to the Athlone Provisional Order, 1894 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports (Annual Series)

Copies presented,—of Diplomatic and Consular Reports on Trade and Finance, Nos. 1347 (Algiers) and 1348 (Honduras) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Adjournment

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— ( Mr. T. E. Ellis. )

said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the action of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Guildford on previous occasions, and the action of the hon. Baronet the Member for West Belfast to-night, with regard to the Motion affecting the Select Committee on the Irish Laud Acts, he intended to make, or hoped to make, or saw any advantage in making, this Motion. Hon. Gentlemen opposed this Motion, although the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester had said that if the form of Reference was amended there would be no opposition. But a very valuable Bill had now been read a second time, and it became a question whether later on in the Session an opportunity could be found for discussion of the matter, and a day's discussion in the House would be a great deal more valuable than a great many days upstairs in Committee. He would ask the Chief Secretary, therefore, having regard to the importance of the Bill, and to the opposition of hon. Gentlemen, whether there was any advantage in persisting with the Motion?

said, he differed from the hon. and learned Member for Louth in thinking that a day in the House on the Bill would be more valuable than many days in Committee upstairs. He hoped the Chief Secretary would not make up his mind hastily to relinquish a proposal which was approved by every party in Ireland. , He himself deeply regretted that an Irish Member should at the last moment oppose this Motion, and risk a proposal, the loss of which would certainly give rise to a. great deal of excitement in Ulster, and might lead to results which the hon. Baronet and he might have cause to deplore.

:I readily join with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Louth in deploring the painful want of discipline on the other side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, as I said more than once yesterday, distinctly invited me to modify the Order of Reference in the way in which I have actually modified it, and promised—

:The right hon. Gentleman certainly invited me to modify the Order of Reference. I presumed that the right hon. Gentleman did not throw out that invitation in a mere empty form, and that it carried with it a promise that the right hon. Gentleman would do his best to get that form of Reference accepted. [Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: No,, no.] Well, I withdraw the word "promise," but that is my interpretation of what the right hon. Gentleman said, and in view of that I consented to cut down the Order of Reference, and to put it on the Paper in the form in which it now stands. I will require a little-more time to consider the course I will take, but if gentlemen opposite persist in refusing to have this Committee appointed—a Committee which I believe all Parties in the House and all Parties in Ireland desire—then, of course, I will have to consider whether it is worth while to persevere in making the Motion. I have been making the Motion in one form or other ever since the Session began. I would much prefer that the Committee should be appointed, as, in my opinion, it is far the better way of dealing with the subject, and that the Bill which was passed yesterday with only eight Irish Conservative votes against it should be referred to it. I assented to the Second Reading of that Bill, assuming that this Committee would be appointed. I will not say more tonight, but the matter is becoming rather serious, unless the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition can bring some influence to bear on his colleague on the Front Bench, and on the hon. Baronet behind him.

:A personal appeal has been made to me by the right hon. Gentleman which I cannot ignore. With regard to my hon. Friend who sits on this Bench with me, and to whom reference has been made, of course he does not act as an ex-official, but as one concerned in certain Irish interests, and acts on his side precisely as the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Healy), who so vociferously interrupts, acts on his.

:But I will not occupy the time of the House in discussing the position of my hon. Friend. Leaving that out of account, a personal appeal has been made to me, and I have been told that in the House I had given something in the nature of a personal pledge that I would exercise my influence to obtain the appointment of this Committee with the reduced Order of Reference which now stands upon the Paper. That is perfectly true, and at the time I made that statement, and until the events of yesterday, I was of opinion that a Committee to inquire into the working of the Land Act of 1881, now that the end of the 15 years' term is approaching, would not be an inexpedient Committee to appoint. But, after what took place yesterday, when a Land Bill was read a second time, I do not now see what is to be lost by a couple of hours' discussion before the Committee is appointed. Of course, if progress on the Bill is to be suspended until the Committee has reported, well and good, but if we are to carry on concurrently both an inquiry upstairs in Committee on Irish laud and legislation downstairs on Irish land, it will be a proceeding little consistent with the dignity of the House. If the Bill is not to be proceeded with until the Committee has reported on the points of the Bill, then I will hold to the opinion I expressed a few days ago, and agree that the Land Act of 1881 is a proper subject for Parliamentary inquiry.

:The hon. Baronet the Member for North Belfast has not condescended to explain his position or the motive of the surprising action he has taken. The hon. Baronet must be well aware of the proceedings in reference to this Motion. He must know that the Chief Secretary has time after time conceded the substance of the Amendments which have been put down on the Paper to the Order of Reference. The Chief Secretary excluded inquiry into the Land Judges' Court and into the Purchase Acts, and he limited the scope of the inquiry to the first part of the Reference. The hon. Baronet must be aware that the Leader of the Opposition in the House the other day, when the Chief Secretary conceded the form of Reference suggested, made it abundantly clear that in his view the nomination of the Committee would not be opposed, and on that understanding the Chief Secretary put the Order of Reference in the form in which it now appears. It is strange that the Tory Party, which has always boasted of its discipline—it is strange that Members of that Party should resist the appointment of a Committee the terms of Reference to which were agreeable to the Leader of the Party to which the hon. Baronet and the Member for Guildford belong. I fail to see how the fact that this House has affirmed the principle of a Bill on the Irish Land Question has altered the position of a Motion for the appointment of a Committee in such a way as to render discussion on the appointment of that Committee more necessary than before. I should have thought that the fact that the House had passed the Second Reading of a Bill would have rendered discussion on the appointment of a Committee less necessary, because the subject has been cleared up by the Debate of yesterday, and if there was a case for the appointment of the Committee, that case has been rendered more apparent by the Second Reading of the Bill to which I have referred. The Leader of the Opposition, whose ingenuity is never at a loss on the spur of the moment, threw out a suggestion to-night that there might be no resistance to the appointment of the Committee if it was understood that the Bill would be referred to it. Might I remind the House that the Bill is now in Committee of the whole House, and I must say for myself that I am not altogether prepared to assent to the proposition that the Bill should be referred now to a Select Committee? The Committee has only to make a limited inquiry into the details of the practice of certain officials in Ireland, and if it were appointed and proceeds with expedition, there is no reason why it should not complete its inquiries by Whitsuntide. If that is understood, we have no objection to postpone the consideration of the Bill until after Whitsuntide. But I am not prepared to assent to the view that a Bill which has been read a second time, and on which the House has gone into Committee, should be referred to a Committee upstairs. At any rate, whatever may be the opinion of the Tory Party in reference to the Committee, we shall claim our right at a convenient stage of the Session to ask the House to make progress with the Bill.

said, that after what had been said by the hon. Member for Kerry he would ask his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition whether, having regard to the results of the opposition to this Motion in Ireland and in the Province of Ulster, he did not think that there should be no further opposition. The Member for Kerry stated that he did not propose that legislation should take place until the Committee had reported, and he had further stated that the Committee would report earlier than he had thought they would. After that statement, he would appeal to his right hon. Friend to use his influence with the Member for Guildford and with the Member for North Belfast, with a view to withdrawing their opposition to the appointment of this Committee, which, if persisted in, would bring about results in Ulster that they would regret.

:Do I understand the hon. Member for Kerry to say that he is prepared to postpone legislation until the Committee has reported?

:Let us hear from your friends first. Let us hear from the hon. Member for North Belfast.

:We think that the Bill should proceed this Session, but that the proceedings of the Committee should be so compressed as to admit of that being done.

:I have been asked to use my influence with hon. Members on my side to secure the appointment of the Committee, seeing that the hon. Member for Kerry on his side has engaged that there shall be no legislation until the inquiry has taken place. I understand the view of the hon. Member for Kerry to be that the Committee should be appointed and should report before Whitsuntide. I do not see how a Committee of the House is to go through such a difficult, complicated, and tangled subject in three weeks.

:It will not be possible to proceed with legislation while the Committee is sitting.

:If that is so, I have no objection to the appointment of the Committee.

:Can we hear what the Member for North Belfast has to say on the point?

* :I am quite prepared to withdraw my opposition provided the suggestions of my right hon. Friend be accepted.

:Hear, hear.

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Twelve o'clock.