House of Commons
Thursday, April 19, 1894
A Correction
called attention to an error in the Official Division List. He stated that, although he voted in the second Division on the previous afternoon, his name did not appear in the Official List.
* said, he would call attention to the omission, and take care that the necessary correction was made.
Questions
Questions
First Aid to the Injured
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, in the United Kingdom, the number of accidents reported monthly by certifying surgeons in factories and workshops averages 700, in mines nearly 300, and on railways upwards of 200; whether he is also aware that serious results frequently occur from shock to the system and loss of blood before the arrival of surgical assistance; and whether, by the co-operation of the Inspectors of Factories, Mines, and Railways, and the Education Department, it is practicable to extend a knowledge of first aids to the injured among managers, superintendents, and foremen, so as to diminish the proportion of deaths, and alleviate the sufferings of the injured?
(who replied) said: The figures given by my hon. Friend are, I am informed, fairly correct. I am well aware of the results which so frequently occur in these cases. Much is done by Ambulance Associations, and the Education Department approves of lectures being given on this subject in continuation schools. As to whether it is possible to take any further steps in this matter, the question will receive careful attention.
Postal Telegraph Revenue
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the facts that the total deficiency of Telegraph Revenue to meet expenditure and interest amounted to £4,929,257 up to the 31st of March, 1893, that the deficiency for the year ending on that date was £465,570, and appeared to be rapidly rising, he can explain the reason for this grave state of things; whether his attention has been drawn to the paragraph, page 6, of the Report from the Select Committee of 1888, as to the causes then operating to make Post Office Telegraphs unprofitable; and what steps have been since taken to deal with those causes?
:In addition to the reasons given in the paragraph of the Report of the Select Committee of 1888 quoted by my hon. Friend, which still operates to a great extent to cause the deficiency, I may state that there has been a general improvement in the wages of the telegraphists, trade has been much depressed, and there has also been the competition of telephones. As I have stated on a previous occasion, steps have been taken, with the concurrence of the Directors, to limit the services performed gratuitously for certain Railway Companies, and negotiations are proceeding with the remaining Companies. Economies in the service have been effected where possible, but no change has been made in the tariff tinder which news messages are sent, and there is no doubt that the loss from this cause is largely increasing. On this point I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to a question on the 27th of November last. The House is also aware that, if interest on capital expenditure be taken into account, nothing approaching to an equilibrium between telegraph revenue and expenditure has been attained since the decision was taken to prepare for the introduction of 6d. telegrams.
* :I presume we may rely upon my right hon. Friend doing his utmost to bring this system of gratuitous service for the Companies to an end?
:I have taken all the steps in my power. I am still in negotiation with some of the Companies, and hope soon to bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion.
Hertfordshire Clerks of the Peace
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the amount of salary and what of fees annually received by the Clerk of the Peace for the County of Herts; what part of that sum is payable out of the rates; and by whom and when was he appointed?
said: The Clerk of the Peace informs me that his salary, which was fixed in 1875, is £950. That the gross amount of fees received during the past year, which were somewhat in excess of the usual amount, was £266. That of this sum £109 was payable out of the rates. That he was appointed in 1865 by the Earl of Verulam, the then Lord Lieutenant of the County.
Sittings of the High Court at Guildhall
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Lord Chancellor would ascertain the opinion of the Judges and of the legal profession whether the sittings of the High Court of Justice at Guildhall have been found sufficiently advantageous to justify the continued withdrawal of Judges from the Royal Courts for the purpose; and will the Government take steps to give effect thereto?
(who replied) said: The Lord Chancellor is aware that many of the Judges are of opinion that the experiment which has been tried of having sittings for London causes at the Guildhall has not been successful, and that this view finds considerable support in the legal profession. He hopes that arrangements are now in progress, pursuant to the recommendations of the Council of Judges, for definite and continuous sittings of an adequate number of Courts at the Royal Courts of Justice, with satisfactory provision for taking a list of commercial causes, which will render it necessary to continue the Guildhall sittings.
The Southern Railway Bill
:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if the attention of the Treasury has been drawn to the Bill now before Parliament intituled " The Southern Railway Bill"; whether, under the agreement proposed to be confirmed by the Bill, the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland have agreed to the payment to the Great Southern and Western Railway Company of the perpetual rent of £917 a year as receivers over the Southern Railway for the right to run over one and a-quarter miles of the former Company's line into Thurles, and as rent for Thurles Railway Station; could the Government construct a new line into Thurles with a station there for a smaller amount than that represented by the capital value of this annual sum; and whether he is aware that the effect of the agreement will be to secure for ever to the Great Southern and Western Railway Company the power to send by Dublin all cross-channel traffic not specially consigned by Waterford?
:A Select Committee of the House will shortly consider the Kill referred to, and will, no doubt, hear all parties concerned. It would, therefore, be inconvenient that I should make any statement at the present time in anticipation of the proceedings before the Committee.
Labourers' Cottages in Dunshaughlin Union
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he explain why, although a Local Government inquiry into the erection of labourers' cottages in Dunshaughlin Union was held early in December last, and nearly all the representations were sanctioned by the Inspector, nothing has been heard of the matter since?
:The Local Government Board inform me that in February they informed the Guardians of the Union that they were prepared to confirm schemes for the erection of 56 of the 72 cottages proposed, subject to the Guardians supplying the written consents of the persons interested to the changes recommended in the sites of the cottages. The Provisional Order will be issued as soon as these documents are received from the Guardians.
:Is it in consequence of the delay in not sending out the legal documents, and for that reason alone, that the matter has not been proceeded with?
:Yes; that is what I have been given to understand.
Gas for Government Departments
:I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can state what amount of gas was consumed in the various Government Departments under the control of the Board of Works during 1893, and what was the total cost of the same; whether the gas supplied by the Gaslight and Coke Company at 3s. 1d. per 1,000 cubic feet is of the same quality as the gas for which they are charging 2s. 5d. per 1,000 cubic feet on the south side of Vauxhall Bridge; and whether cannel gas is supplied to the Government Departments; and, if not, when was it discontinued?
* :The quantity may approximately be taken at 150,000,000 cubic feet, of which about 143,000,000 were supplied by the Gas Light and Coke Company. The total cost was about £22,717, exclusive of meter rents. The whole of the gas now paid for by the Office of Works is "common" gas; and as the illuminating power is subject to the Board of Trade test, I have no doubt that the quality in the north and south of London is the same. I find that the supply of cannel gas to the Public Departments was discontinued in September, 1892.
Evictions at Rathcline, County Longford
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that during the period covered by the inquiry of the Evicted Tenants' Commission a number of evictions have taken place upon the Annaly property in Rathcline, County Longford; that the holdings are now occupied by what are known as bogus tenants, some of whom have only recently been put in possession; and that the property has recently been offered for sale by the Court of Chancery; and whether, pending the passage of the Evicted Tenants Bill, steps will be taken to prevent the advance of public money to those bogus tenants, so that the former tenants may be enabled to purchase upon fair terms?
:The facts are generally as stated in the first paragraph, except that I have no information bearing cut the statement that some of the tenants are what the hon. Gentleman describes as "bogus." With regard to the second paragraph, the Government have no means of interfering with the sales to the tenants as suggested.
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, should any of these supposed tenants apply for an advance of the purchase-money to the Purchase Commissioners, the Inspector sent down to make inquiries will take particular steps to ascertain whether the tenants are solvent people or not?
:Before an answer is given to the last question, I should like to ask whether it is not a fact that these estates are under the direction of the Landed Estates Court in Ireland?
:In answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman who put the last question, it is true that this estate is in Chancery and that the Land Judges have ordered the sale of it. In answer to the first question, I am not quite sure what Inspector my hon. Friend means, but whoever he may be, the Executive Government have no legal right to interfere with any of the transactions of the Land Commissioners' Department.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire of the Commissioners whether the Inspector, when making his investigations as to how far the holding is or is not a proper security for the whole amount of the purchase-money, will examine into the limit of the security offered, and also whether the tenant is or is not a person having a practical knowledge of agriculture?
:I am afraid I can only promise that I will call the attention of the Laud Commissioners to what has been said on the subject this evening.
Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he can state the amount of the subsidy offered by his predecessor in Office to the Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway Company, provided they would give an additional daily train to West Cork, also the amount required by the Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway Company?
:I am assured that no such offer has been made within recent years by any Postmaster General. The payment required by the Railway Company at the present time is £1,500 a year—a sum which it would obviously be impossible to pay for an additional service in a district where the postal revenues are already insufficient to meet the expenditure.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman say there was no promise of a subsidy to this railway?
:I have inquired, and I feel sure that no such promise has been made.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to say that the late Postmaster General himself told me he would give a subsidy in consideration of the additional services.
Tuam Guardianship Dispute
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the clerk of the Poor Law Union of Tuam rejected the nomination of Mr. Thomas Higgins, of Ryhill, for the position of Poor Law Guardian for a district of that Union; could he explain on what grounds; and whether he is aware that Mr. Higgins is a tenant of a farm, the annual Poor Law valuation of which is upwards of £30, and that he has been in occupation of it and liable for the poor rates since May, 1892?
:The fact is as stated in the first paragraph. It appears that Mr. Higgins is in possession of two grazing farms neither of which is separately valued, being included with other property for which another person is rated. The returning officer rejected, therefore, the nomination of Mr. Higgins, on the ground that he did not possess the necessary rating qualification for the office of Guardian.
Stamp Duties in Ireland
:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the large proportion of counterparts stamped in Ireland which come from Belfast, and of the great inconvenience of not being able to get them stamped with the original deeds at Belfast; whether there is anything in the Stamp Act of 1891 to prevent the counterparts from being stamped there; whether he is aware that no matter how high may be the duty on the original deed, the duty on the counterpart does not exceed 5s.; and whether, considering the convenience of the public and the absence of risk to the Revenue, he will make inquiry into the matter and have this accommodation provided at Belfast?
:I am not able to ascertain what proportion of counterparts stamped in Ireland come from Belfast, as in many cases they are presented at the Dublin office through Dublin agents. I have already stated that it is considered necessary for the protection of the Revenue that the comparison of the original and counterpart should be made by the solicitors to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in Dublin or their trained assistants. The deeds can, however, be lodged with the collector of Inland Revenue at Belfast, who will transmit them to Dublin.
:How can it be inconsistent to do this at Belfast? It is done in other places.
:I can only say the authorities tell me they cannot see their way to alter present arrangements. I am informed that it is done entirely with a view of protecting the Revenue, and that no doubt it is necessary.
:I shall put' a , further question on this subject.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries into the matter, as it is one in which solicitors in the North of Ireland are very deeply interested.
* :Order, order!
Mr. Deeney, J. P
:On behalf of the hon. Member for York (Mr. Butcher), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it has been brought to his knowledge that Mr. Deeney, of Rathmullen, in the County of Donegal, who was appointed to the Commission of the Peace for County Donegal in January, 1893, was the holder of a retail licence for the sale of intoxicating liquors in Rathmullen, and that he transferred his licence to his wife; and whether, under these circumstances, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland proposes to take any steps to revoke such appointment?
:I understand that the Lord Chancellor has not yet completed his inquiries into this case, and I will, therefore, ask my hon. Friend to repeat the question on Monday.
Patent Office Fees
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the total amount at any time received in fees by the Patent Office on the 121,242 patents, voided at one stage or another, by renewal fees between 1st July, 1852, and 31st December, 1893; and the total amount of the aggregate surplus income or balance of account from 1st October, 1852, to the end of the year 1893, no mention of which has appeared in the official Patent Reports since 1880; and whether he will give instructions that this item, together with the total number of patents voided since 1st July, 1852, and the fees at any time paid thereon to the Patent Office, shall be printed, in close proximity, in the forthcoming and following yearly Reports of the Commissioner General of Patents?
:During the period of 41 years referred to fees amounting to about £3,000,000 were received in respect of voided patents; about £2,200,000 being initial fees covering three or four years' protection, and £800,000 renewal fees. It is not possible to give precisely the aggregate surplus income for the period named, and for this reason I am unable to comply with the request made in the second paragraph of the hon. Member's question. The House will remember that a considerable reduction was made in 1892 in the scale of renewal fees, and also that a heavy expenditure is being incurred in respect of the construction of the new Patent Office.
:Is that the sole reason for not giving what I ask for in the second part of my question?
:I am told it is not possible to give the statement the hon. Member asks for.
Shipping Casualty in Lough Ryan
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, on the 5th March, the skipper of a small vessel named the Chance, owned by Mr. James Woods, which was lying in Lough Ryan, was compelled by stress of weather to drive her on to the beach; that, after the vessel had been thus beached, the Receiver of Wrecks at Stranraer claimed payment of £1 13s. for deposition fees and personal expenses, and compelled payment by taking away the mainsail of the vessel, subjecting the owner to the expense of 10s. further charge, being the cost of recovering and taking back the mainsail from Stranraer to Lough Ryan; whether these proceedings are sanctioned by the Board of Trade; and what action is contemplated in reference thereto?
:I have made inquiry into the circumstances of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and find that they are substantially as stated in the question. The Receiver of Wrecks at Stranraer acted strictly in accordance with the law and with his instructions, but as £1 13s. is a heavy tax on a vessel like the Chance, I have decided to remit the fee of £1.
Destitution in the Arran Islands
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in consequence of the failure of the potato crop in the Arran Islands, owing to the drought of last year, the inhabitants of those islands are now for the most part destitute of the means of subsistence, and consequently unable to provide themselves with seed for the cultivation of their farms this year; and whether, under the extraordinary circumstances of the case, he will recommend a grant of moderate amount, either directly for the purpose of supplying seed, or indirectly to secure that object, by establishing relief works, such as the construction of a road and two or three boat slips, the provision of which would also permanently assist in securing the means of living, and enable the people to tide over seasons of agricultural disaster?
:May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to give the question of the grant his most favourable consideration? I have no, objection to assist.
:I am quite sure of that. Official inquiries show that, owing to a failure in the potato crop last year and the interruption of the early spring fishing, the Arran islanders have been embarrassed and impoverished. It had been hoped that a supply of seed potatoes could have been provided through the Congested Districts Board, but it has been found that their powers in this respect are confined to dealings for cash payment only. So far as the information before me shows, the condition of the islanders is not at present such as would justify the Government in asking Parliament for a special Vote. It appears that a private fund is being formed, which it is hoped will enable a good supply of seed to be provided. I hope the publicity given to it by the hon. Member will accelerate its growth. Meanwhile, the state of things will be carefully watched.
:Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the fact that unless seed is sown within the next fortnight the potato crop this year will be lost? Will he undertake, in case the private fund should not meet the necessities of the case in the next fortnight, to consider the question of a small grant which would be acceptable to all parties in the House? I wish to thank the hon. Member for Belfast for his kind support.
:I am quite aware that time is pressing for the reason stated. The question is receiving most serious consideration, and not a day would be lost.
asked if the Inspector had reported to the right hon. Gentleman the condition of the people in one of the small villages, where they were dependent on small crops, and were now totally destitute and in need of immediate aid?
:I cannot at this moment recall passages relating to specific villages or hamlets, but I will look into the matter.
Claims for Malicious Burning in County Clare
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to a claim by Richard Reynolds, of Ballykeale, Kilfenora, County Clare, for compensation for alleged malicious injury by the burning of a haystack, whether Terence Reynolds, son of the claimant, stands committed for trial at the next Assizes on a charge of setting fire to the hay for which his father claims compensation; whether other alleged outrages on the farm held by Reynolds have also been made the subject of claims for compensation for him; and whether the consideration of these claims will be postponed till after the conclusion of the trial of Terence Reynolds?
:The facts mentioned in the first two paragraphs of the question of my hon. Friend are substantially correct. As to the suggested postponement of the hearing of the claims for compensation, the matter, I understand, is one for consideration by the Grand Jury. It is obviously important that pending the trial of the son of the claimant on the criminal charge nothing should be done calculated to prejudice a fair trial; and though I am not sure that the police will have a locus standi on the hearing of the claims for compensation, yet I will cause instructions to he issued requiring them to endeavour to secure the postponement of the claims until after the trial at next Assizes.
Dingle Fisheries
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the recent enormous takes of mackerel in the Dingle district; and, whether, in view of the importance of this fishing ground, he will use his influence with the Congested Districts Board to establish a fish-curing station at Dingle?
:The Congested Districts Board inform me that the estab- lishment of fish-curing stations by the Board on the Kerry and Cork coast is considered unnecessary, as a good market already exists there for both fresh and pickled mackerel.
Gun Practice Over the Maplins
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he would direct the officer commanding at Shoeburyness to inform the inhabitants of Foulness Island when gun practice is to take place over the Maplins, as projectiles have fallen dangerously close to the road across the sands to the island?
* :No reports of any inconvenience or danger at the place named have been received, but the Commandant at Shoeburyness has been requested to see that full notice is given on all occasions of intended practice over the Maplin Sands, and that when necessary a danger flag is hoisted at the point referred to.
The Financial Relations of the Three Kingdoms
:On behalf of the hon. Member for Waterford, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when the Royal Commission on the Financial Relations between Great Britain and Ireland will be issued; and whether he can now state the names of the Commissioners?
:I greatly regret the delay which has taken place in the constitution of the Commission; but hon. Members will understand the difficulties of balancing and properly representing the various interests. I hope to be able to submit the names for Her Majesty's approval in the course of the next three or four days, and immediately after that they will be laid before the House.
The Canadian Tea Duties
:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state what the intentions of the Canadian Government are with reference to the alteration of the Tea Duties; whether teas blended in bond in Great Britain will be subject to any and what duty in the new tariff; and whether the Canadian Government can legally differentiate against this country and home labour in favour of China and other tea-exporting countries? At the same time, on behalf of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, I will ask that hon. Gentleman whether he can state if, under the new Canadian Tariff, teas in their original packages, and not blended with other teas, are to be subject to a tax; and whether Her Majesty's Government will use its influence with the Canadian Government to admit duty free from Great Britain all teas passed as pure for Home consumption by Her Majesty's Customs, and for which certificates of origin can be granted by Her Majesty's Customs, which certificates could also state that the said teas had been passed for home consumption and not for exportation only, thus protecting Canada from impure teas from the English market?
:I regret we have not yet heard from the Governor General. If we do not do so this evening I will telegraph again. I must therefore ask that the question be postponed till Monday.
Teaching Staffs in Elementary Schools
:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that under the New Code the method employed for calculating the required amount of staff in public elementary schools, by substituting "number of names on the register" for "average attendance," will have the effect of reckoning for that purpose a large number of infants under five, who practically for many months in the winter do not come to the school to be taught; and whether he can see his way to alter Article 73 of the New Code, so that the computation may be made "on average attendance," and not "on number of children on the Register," or of reviving Rule 4, page 168, of Blue Book, 1883–4, by which, after six weeks' absence, the names of children unable to attend were allowed to be withdrawn from the Register?
* :I laid a Minute amending Article 73 of the new Code on the Table on Monday, and it was circulated yesterday. I hope it may meet the objections which the hon. Baronet and others had to the Article in its original form.
Road Subventions for Edinburgh
:I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, with regard to the fact that in a recent case considered by the Sheriff of the Lothians and Peebles, the Sheriff having, on the evidence before him, awarded to the County of Edinburgh a higher road subvention from the City of Edinburgh than that hitherto paid, the Secretary for Scotland disallowed the increase on the ground that the evidence adduced did not warrant it, would he kindly state the grounds on which he arrived at a different decision from the judicial officer dealing with the case on evidence laid before him?
:Upon the Petitions presented to me by the Town Council of the City of Edinburgh and the Midlothian County Council, the Sheriff of the Lothians and Peebles was directed by me to hold a local inquiry under the provisions of Section 9 of the Roads and Bridges Act, 1878, in order to enable me to determine whether I should bring in a Provisional Order modifying the amount of the subvention, and I am glad to bear testimony to the able manner in which he conducted the inquiry. I must, however, point out that the Secretary for Scotland, while he is bound to grant the inquiry on application, is in no ways bound to follow the Report of his Commissioner; and that after serious consideration of that Report, in conjunction with all matters relative to the case, I arrived at the decision which has already been announced, and which I consider, in all the circumstances of the case, is a fair and equitable decision as between the parties concerned.
Land Revenue of India
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will place upon the Table of the House a copy of a recent Minute by the late Viceroy of India, in which he recommends certain reforms in the Land Revenue of India, especially the extension of the system of advances to cultivators, the introduction of greater elasticity into the Revenue system, and the restriction of the right of land transfer?
:I am not sure that I have been able to identify the document referred to by my hon. Friend; but, if he refers to a Report furnished by the Government of India in consequence of a question asked in this House by my hon. Friend the Member for North Manchester, I shall be happy to place the Correspondence upon the Table of the House if he will move for it.
Canadian Royalties on British Copyright Works
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a statement in The Daily Telegraph, and other newspapers of the 11th of April, to the effect that the Canadian Government have forwarded a Despatch to the British Colonial Office notifying the Imperial Authorities that, after the next Session of the Dominion Parliament, the collection by the Dominion Customs of a royalty of 12½ per cent. on foreign reprints of British copyright works for the benefit of copyright holders will cease; and that the Colonial Authorities have been induced to take this action in view of the expected changes in the Imperial Copyright Laws as applicable to Canada; and, if so, whether any, and if any what, changes in the Imperial Copyright Law are contemplated?
:The Colonial Office informs me that no such Despatch has been received, but Her Majesty's Government is aware that the new Tariff Bill does contain a proposal that the duty of 12½ per cent. on foreign reprints will only be collected up to a given date in 1895. Canada wishes to be released from the Imperial Copyright Law, and a Departmental Committee under Lord Balfour of Burleigh was appointed last year to consider the subject. The reply of the Canadian Government to the Report of that Committee has recently been received and is under consideration.
Swine Fever
:On behalf of the hon. Member for the Ramsey Division of Hants, I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that, in carrying out the Swine Fever Regulations, there is sometimes great delay between the giving notice by the police and the declaration of the disease by the Board's Inspectors; and, as this delay causes great danger of infection and inconvenience, whether he can see his way either to employ the local Veterinary Inspectors at the first notice of an outbreak, or to make other arrangements to prevent delay?
:Under the Orders issued on the subject of swine fever it is the duty of the Local Authority to apply the necessary restrictions immediately upon their receiving information as to the existence, or supposed existence, of the disease, without waiting for the result of any examination of the viscera made by the veterinary officers of the Department, upon whose verdict the payment of compensation for swine compulsorily slaughtered must necessarily rest. It is, doubtless, the case that in some districts the local organisation was at first defective, but a gradual improvement has been effected, and there is now no reason to suppose that any very serious spread of the disease occurs owing to delay in dealing with the outbreaks reported.
Board of Irish Lights
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what portion of the £40,000 granted in aid of the Mercantile Marine Fund, Civil Service Estimates, Class II., Vote 9, is given to the Board of Irish Lights Commissioners; and when this Vote will come before the Committee of the House of Commons?
:No portion of this £40,000 is given to the Board of Irish Lights Commissioners. It is granted in respect of certain extra charges which were placed on the Mercantile Marine Fund by the Act of 1882. The principal of these were expenses of survey staff and relief of distressed seamen.
:Then will there be no opportunity of discussing the action of the Board of Irish Lights on this Vote?
:None, Sir.
:But did not the right hon. Gentleman himself tell us we would be able to discuss the constitution of the Board on this Vote?
:If I did I made a mistake.
Service Franchise in Scotland
:I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the holders of the service franchise in Scotland, although on the roll for Parliamentary elections, are in a vast number of cases held disqualified for voting for School Board elections; and whether the Government have considered the possibility of providing an early remedy for this inequality?
:Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, will be allow me to ask him whether he himself did not introduce a Bill on this very subject in the last Parliament? As the matter is fairly non-contentious, could he not now re-introduce that Bill?
* :I did introduce such a Bill, I think more than once, in the last Parliament, and if there was a fair prospect of its being passed I would be glad to re-introduce it. The persons entitled to vote at School Board elections are those whose names are entered on the Valuation Roll as owners or occupiers of lands or heritages of the annual value of not less than £4. No value was entered against the names of holders of the service franchise till 1889. Now, in counties, the value of the premises which they occupy is entered against their names, and I consider that where that value is not less than £4, they are entitled to vote at School Board elections, but that where a less value than £4 is entered, they are not so entitled. In burghs a value is not entered against the names of the holders of the service franchise, and consequently they are not, in my opinion, entitled to vote at School Board elections. I may say that several years ago I introduced a Bill to confer the School Board Franchise upon all who possessed the Parliamentary Franchise. The question whether the matter can be dealt with will be considered.
* :Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the difficulty is not confined to Scotland, but that it exists in England also?
:I am not aware of that.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman not consider, in connection with the new Local Government Bill for Scotland, whether a qualification of less than £4 can be introduced?
* :I am afraid that this topic, important as it is, is scarcely germane to the objects of the Bill.
Foreign Meat Imports
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture when it is intended to introduce the Bill dealing with importation of foreign meat, of which notice was given by a Member of the Government in the House of Lords on the 16th instant; and in which House the Bill will be introduced?
:I beg, at the same time, to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in accordance with the statements of Lord Playfair, the Government will introduce a Bill giving powers to the Board of Agriculture to deal with cases of fraudulent misrepresentation in regard to the sale of meat; and, if so, whether such Bill will be introduced at an early date and proceeded with forthwith?
:In reply to the hon. Baronet and to the hon. Member for Chester, I would say that a Bill for the purpose of giving to the Board of Agriculture, in cases affecting the general interests of agriculture, similar powers to those conferred upon the Board of Trade under Section 2 of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1891, is now under consideration, and I hope to be in a position to introduce it at an early date. If, as I hope will be the case, the Bill commends itself to the general approval of the House, there is no reason why it should not be proceeded with forthwith.
The Registration Bill
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Government are in possession of any information which enables him to state or estimate the number of electors who, being entitled to vote under 2 Will. 4, c 45, s. 27, and also under 30 & 31 Vic. c. 102, or under 48 & 49 Vic. c 3, will be affected in respect of their right to vote by the provisions of the Bill introduced by him on Friday last?
:Section 27 of 2 and 3 Will. IV., c. 45, so far as it confers a right to vote, has been repealed. There is no means of estimating the number of £10 occupiers who will be affected by the Bill. As regards persons who vote as inhabitant occupiers, the number of inhabited "houses," according to the Census of 1891, is 5,450,000; the number of inhabited "tenements" is 6,130,000. According to this enumeration—the precise accuracy of which is qualified in the Census Report—there are nearly 700,000 more inhabited tenements than houses, the difference arising from those houses which are let out in separate tenements being treated as one inhabited house. If the occupier of each tenement was a man who resided for the three months' qualifying period he would be entitled to a vote, but there must be a considerable deduction made from the number of tenements for empties, for women, and for persons otherwise disqualified. Deduction must also be made for those occupiers of tenements who are in law lodgers, and for occupiers who vote in another capacity— e.g., as owners or freemen; but probably it may be taken roughly that the number of electors could not exceed the number of tenements. The question of several tenements to one house is practically limited to London, Newcastle, Sunderland, and two or three other large towns.
:I am not asking about uninhabited houses. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the number of voters under Section 27 that will be affected by this Bill?
:I believe this is very much the same point as the right hon. Gentleman embodied in a question he addressed to me on a previous occasion.
:I can assure the right hon. Gentleman I have never put this question before in any shape or form.
:I will inquire further into it.
subsequently said: The Chief Secretary stated that the franchise clause in the Reform Act of 1832 had been repealed. But is it not the fact that the statute repealing the sections also re-enacts them?
:Of course my right hon. Friend is aware that in. a matter of this kind I am in the hands of my legal advisers. I will inquire further.
Rival American Mail Routes
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been drawn to the Return just issued by the Cunard Company as to the relative time occupied by the British boats, viâ Queenstown, and those of the American line from Southampton in delivering the mails at New York during the past 12 mouths, which shows a saving of time in favour of the British liners of over 41 days, while the time saved on the homeward voyage during the same period was over 23 days, or an aggregate saving of over 64 days; and whether, in view of these facts, he will take the necessary steps still further to advance the Queenstown Mail Service by accelerating the transport between Dublin and London?
:I have not had an opportunity of analyzing the Return referred to, and indeed I scarcely think it would be necessary to do so, having recently furnished the House with a Return for the year 1893 relating to the mail service between this country and the United States. The question of accelerating the transport between Dublin and London is engaging my serious attention.
:Arising out of the latter part of the answer, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the rate of speed of mail trains on the London and North-Western Railway between London and Scotland is considerably greater than the same Company's mail trains between London and Holyhead, notwithstanding the steeper gradients on the former route; and whether he is aware that the speed between London and Holyhead is little better now than it was in 1884, whereas on the Scotch route it has been increased 13 per cent.?
:I think the allegations of the hon. Member are inaccurate except in one particular. The difference between the pace of the mail trains on the two routes is infinitesimal, that between London and Holyhead being 42¶12 miles per hour, and between London and Glasgow 43¶16 miles per hour.
:As my information is from a very good source, will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiry?
:Yes.
* :When is the right hon. Gentleman going to give notice to terminate the present contract?
An hon. MEMBER: Is it not the fact that the present mail train service is incomparably slower than the day express trains?
:Undoubtedly there is a difference in pace, as the mail train has to perform a service which the other trains do not.
:When may we expect an answer in regard to this question, in which everybody in Ireland is interested?
:A definite answer may be expected on the subject as soon as a definite conclusion has been arrived at.
Prizes in Board Schools
:I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether a Rule is now in operation prohibiting or limiting the giving of prizes by School Boards for regular attendance; whether he will state the terms of any such Rule, and the date when and by whom it was made; whether he is aware that among members of School Boards and managers and teachers of Board schools a strong feeling exists that prizes for regular attendance have produced most beneficial results; and whether the Education Department will cause inquiries to be made with a view of retaining the power to give such prizes?
:The Rule regulating the giving of prizes by School Boards for regular attendance at school may be shortly stated as follows:—Such prizes are legal only when they are given to the children whose attendance has been best, and not when they are given to all children whose attendances have reached a prescribed minimum number. This is also the Rule of the Local Government Board, acting through the district auditors, when dealing with (he accounts of School Boards. The Rule as it now exists was made early in 1892. Before that date no attendance prizes whatever were allowed. No change on this matter has been made since the present Government came into Office. I will gladly consider any further information on the subject, but I believe most School Boards find that the existing Rule gives them all reasonable liberty.
Antrim Castle Deer Park
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any agreement was submitted to or entered into with Lord Massereene as to the use of the deer park of Antrim Castle for a. camp of exercise; whether he will state the terms of the agreement; and, if made, why it has not been carried out; whether this deer park has been reported suitable for the purpose; and if any recent communication has been made to Lord Massereene with the view of having an arrangement arrived at?
* :The terms insisted upon by Lord Massereene were not such as the War Department could accept, and no recent communications have taken place relative to the acquisition of the deer park as a training camp. The deer park is considered suitable on the whole as a camping and exercising ground, although there are some drawbacks to its use as a rifle range.
Promotion in the Civil Service
:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether Heads of Departments in the Civil Service have power to recommend that Second Division clerks be promoted to clerkships of the Upper Division without their being called upon to pass the open competitive examination for such posts; and whether he will consider the advisability of extending this principle to clerks of grades inferior to the Second Division, and thus provide a means of rewarding conspicuous merit in the lower grades of the Civil Service?
:The answer to the first question is in the affirmative, but I cannot admit any analogy such as my hon. Friend wishes to draw. The standard of the competition for the Second Division, unlike that for the Upper Division, is moderate, and, now that the position of the Second Division has been so much improved in accordance with the recommendations of the Ridley Commission, I cannot contemplate the lowering of the standard of the Second Division by admitting into it persons from the lower grades who have passed a merely rudimentary examination.
Jabez Spencer Balfour
:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the present position of affairs in regard to the extradition of Mr. Jabez Balfour; whether any fresh obstacles have arisen to retard such extradition; and whether he can give the House the probable date of Mr. Jabez Balfour's arrival in this country?
:The case is still under examination by the Argentine Federal Judge at Salta, and Her Majesty's Government have forwarded all documents and taken every legal precaution necessary to the progress of the case. A certain amount of delay has, of course, been caused by the distance and the difficulties of communication, Salta being about 1,000 miles from Buenos Ayres. No fresh obstacles have arisen to retard the extradition, though, as the hon. Member is no doubt aware, some obstacles have been removed since the extradition was first applied for. It is not yet possible to say when the legal proceedings will have come to an end.
The Halfpenny Postal Rate
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether the halfpenny postal rate extends to the transmission of private letters enclosed in unfastened envelopes?
:No, Sir. The halfpenny postal rates does not extend to the transmission of private letters enclosed in unfastened envelopes. Any person so sending private letters is infringing the law, and the letters so sent become liable to twice the deficient postage.
Mr. Mathew Weld O'connor
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has caused inquiries to be made into the charges that have been preferred against Mr. Mathew Weld O'Connor, a Magistrate of the County Meath; and, if so, with what result?
:The Lord Chancellor informs me that he has been in communication with the Receiver Judge with regard to the action of Mr. O'Connor as Receiver, and that he is not aware of any reasons sufficient to justify his removal from the Commission of the Peace.
Colourable Licence Transfers in Ireland
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the decision of the Queen's Bench that colourable transfers of retail licences are illegal, any steps will be taken in the case of Mr. Hegarty, J.P., Millstreet, County Cork?
:Before the question is answered, I should like to ask the Chief Secretary whether Mr. Hegarty did not complain, on a former occasion, that his life was in danger in consequence of questions asked by the hon. Member?
:I am not aware whether that formidable consequence followed any question of the hon. Member. I am informed that the gentleman referred to was appointed to the Commission of the Peace in 1887, and that the then Lord Chancellor was satisfied he had, prior to his appointment, made a honâ fide assignment of his licensed premises to his son, and had given up all connection with the business.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the son only came of age on the 8th of last month, and that Mr. Hegarty lived on premises which communicated with the licensed premises?
:I was not aware of those facts.
:Seeing that in several cases the Lord Chancellor has put pressure on gentlemen to transfer the licences before they received the Commission of the Peace during the last 12 months, what action, supposing the transfers to be illegal, does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take with regard to them?
:The Lord Chancellor now has this matter under his consideration, and is deciding what course he shall take.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the question I have put as to the age of Mr. Hegarty's son, and as to the connection of Mr. Hegarty's residence with the licensed premises?
:I will call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to these statements.
Orange Disturbances at Ballynure
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the attack made by an Orange assembly on the meeting of Presbyterian farmers at Ballynure, County Antrim, whether he can state why the extra police were sent for to Larne; whether a request was made by the constabulary that the meeting should not break up before the arrival of the extra police; whether he is aware that, after the windows were broken, the Rev. Mr. Lyttle, Unitarian minister, was struck with a stone, and the Rev. Mr. Armour, Presbyterian minister, was struck on the hat with a lump of hard clay, when leaving the Presbyterian Lecture Hall; and whether, considering that the chief object of the meeting was to prepare evidence for the Committee proposed to be appointed by Parliament to inquire into the administration of the Irish Land Laws, some steps will be taken to discover the ringleaders of the mob, with the view of bringing them to justice?
:(1.) The extra police were sent for on the occasion referred to by the sergeant on duty at Ballynure because of the unexpected arrival in the village of a band accompanied by a crowd numbering about 200, whose object apparently was to cause annoyance to the meeting. He considered it safer, therefore, to have more men on the spot, but their services were not required on arrival at Ballynure. As to paragraph 2, what took place, I understand, was this. The sergeant informed the chairman that he had sent for additional police and suggested that, if the chairman considered it advisable, the meeting need not break up until their arrival. The crowd, however, dispersed before the meeting was over. As to the third paragraph, in consequence of the representations made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Kerry, when I replied to a question on this subject on the 12th instant, further inquiries were at once directed to be made into the matter of the alleged stoning of these clergymen. The Divisional Commissioner, who proceeded to the locality, now states that the chairman of the meeting told him that missiles were thrown at the clergymen after the meeting, and that Mr. Lyttle was struck on the leg and Mr. Armour on the hat, but that neither of them was in any way injured. In explanation of the first Report made by the police that the clergymen were not stoned on the occasion, the Divisional Commissioner states that no complaint was made to the police, who were patrolling the village, by either of the rev. gentlemen, and that these gentlemen did not even mention the occurrence to the chairman, in whose company they were after the meeting. Under these circumstances, and as both clergymen live at a considerable distance from Ballynure, I think my hon. Friend will acquit the police of any intention to wilfully mislead in their first Report. With reference to the fourth paragraph, the police are making every effort to trace the persons who assaulted the two clergymen who smashed the windows of the Lecture Hall.
:Arising out of this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that the house referred to in the question was built by private subscription and is held under a trust deed containing a covenant that it should only be used for Sunday schools and meetings of a religious or educational character connected with the Presbyterian Church, and were the gentlemen named in the question using it for other and different purposes, and were they the same two clergymen who got up the Presbyterian Home Rule Address to the right hon. Member for Midlothian?
:Is it the view of the Irish Government that if Presbyterian ministers please to hold a meeting in a house intended for private purposes such iniquity entitles an Orange mob to stone them with impunity?
:I have no means of either testing or answering the question of the hon. and learned Member for Fermanagh As to the question of the hon. Member for Roscommon, I may say it is not usual for Ministers to express their views on abstract propositions.
:Will the right hon. Gentleman intimate to the Commissioner of Police the undesirability of the police committing themselves to conclusive Reports affecting individuals without investigating the circumstances?
:I am quite sure that the Divisional Commissioner has already made a communication to that effect.
London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Fares
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the fact that the only trains run in Great Britain without third-class accommodation at 1d. per mile (except the Irish and Continental mail trains) are those of the Brighton Company; that the number of such Brighton trains is 15 daily; that the legal maxima per mile on the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway are first class 1d., second class ¾d., third class ½d., as against first class 2¼d., second class 1¾d., third class 1d., on the Brighton Railway; and that the first and second class maxima on the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway were raised ¼d. per mile in 1868, on account, as stated in the preamble of the Act, of the poverty of the Company, a poverty which does not now exist, he will direct the attention of the Committee about to consider the Company's Bill to these inequalities of charge, with a view to securing lower rates over the proposed new line?
:With the exception of the London, Tilbury, and Southend, upon which the fares are low—presumably because the cost of construction was comparatively small — the fares of the Brighton Company compare favourably with those of other southern lines, and no complaint has been received by me of insufficiency of third-class trains. There does not appear to be any case for the intervention of the Board of Trade.
The Loss of the "Blair Athole."
:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has received any further information about the loss of the Blair Athole last summer; and whether the Admiralty intend taking further steps to ascertain whether any survivors of the crew might have landed on Warren Hastings Island or some other island in the vicinity, and are still alive?
:The Admiralty received no information of the loss of any particular ship. A Report has been furnished by the owners of the ship British General that that ship was boarded by natives from Warren Hastings Island on the 4th of December last, who stated that 10 moons ago a large ship was wrecked and all hands drowned. H.M.S. Pallas is about to leave Hong Kong to make inquiries and ascertain if there are any survivors on the island.
Liverpool Telegraphists' Grievance
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that at Liverpool certain telegraphists were, on Monday, the 16th of April, withdrawn from their ordinary morning attendances and told to attend in the evening to deal with the Press reports of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget Speech, this course being adopted instead of employing overtime clerks, as hitherto, for special work; and whether, inasmuch as such a course of action subjects the ordinary business traffic to delay, and imposes upon the clerks the excessive duty of attending late at night and early the next morning, he will take steps to prevent a recurrence of such extra employment?
:I will make inquiry on the subject of the hon. Member's question, and let him know the result.
Prison Accommodation in the Metropolis
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends to appoint a Committee or Commission to consider the question of prison accommodation in the Metropolis?
:It is my intention to appoint a Departmental Committee to consider several questions, one of which is the subject of prison accommodation in the Metropolis.
Employers' Liability in Scotland
:I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether contracting out of Employers' Liability Act is legal in Scotland?
* :Contracting out is not prohibited by the Employers' Liability Act of 1880, and it has repeatedly been held by the Courts in Scotland that workmen have debarred themselves from the benefits of the Act by contracts with their employers. It might be made a question whether such contracts would, under the existing law of Scotland, exclude a claim at the instance of the widow or children of a workman who had been killed through the fault of an employer, or of someone for whom he was responsible, but I am not aware that this question has ever been decided or even raised in the Scottish Courts.
* :Did not the right hon. Gentleman, on the 30th October, 1880, give it as his opinion that contracts in Scotland cannot be sustained to the effect of excluding the claims of widows and children, and that, consequently, contracting out of an Employers Liability Act is practically impossible in Scotland?
* :I see it stated in the newspapers, and I have no reason to doubt the statement, that I did give an opinion that such a contract would not exclude the claims of a widow or children, on the ground that these claims were not derivative but original, and it still seems to me that, on the principles of the existing Scotch Law, this view is sound. A decision to a different effect has, however, since been pronounced in the English Law Courts, and I am told by those who have had more to do with such cases than I have had for a number of years past, that it is not improbable that it would be followed in the Scotch Courts.
asked if the Employers' Liability Bill of last Session would not have improved the position of Scotland in regard to non-contracting out?
:Very materially.
The Imprisoned Armenians
:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will communicate to the House the steps already taken to secure the liberation of the Archbishops of Marash and Zeitoun, the Bishops of Hadjin and Arabgir, and other Armenians detained in prisons in Asiatic Turkey (or in exile), who, it is alleged, have not had fair trials, and some of whom have not had any trial, and upon whose behalf representations have been repeatedly made to the Foreign Office during the past two years?
* :Her Majesty's Government have already stated that there would, in their opinion, be no advantage in publishing Papers regarding the Armenian question. Unofficial re- presentations were made on behalf of the Archbishops mentioned, whose sentences were confirmed by the Court of Cassation in March, 1893. In September last Her Majesty's Chargé d' Affaires at Constantinople spoke to the Grand Vizier in the hope of obtaining some mitigation of the sentences passed on them and their companions. Her Majesty's Ambassador was instructed last week to ascertain whether it would be possible to do anything for them. The Bishops of Arabgir and Hadjin are not in prison, but exiled from their sees, and it would serve no good purpose to make any representation on their behalf.
:What about the other Armenian prisoners?
* :It would only be possible to deal with all these cases by publishing Papers. We have made some unofficial representations.
:Are there any hopes of their being brought to trial? I have received letters from persons who have been in prison a year without a chance of being tried.
* :There is often great delay, and when that is so, we urge the desirability of bringing prisoners to trial soon.
Stationery Office Publications
:I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state, or will agree to a Return stating, in detail the names and nature of the Stationery Office Publications, which caused an expenditure in the year ending 31st March, 1893, of £22,352 I3s. 4d., and the stock on hand of which, on the 31st March, 1893, was represented by so large a sum as £117,563 0s. 5d.; and whether he anticipates that this latter sum will be actually realised by the disposal of these publications?
* :The Return could certainly be made out, but the labour and cost would be so great that I do not think I should be justified in agreeing to it. I should explain that it is the practice to class as "Stationery Office Publications" every book or paper printed by the Stationery Office (except Parliamentary Papers) of which any copies are placed on sale, and the cost of printing these books is divided between the Sub-heads E, F, H, and K of the Stationery Office Vote. The sum of £117,563 0s. 5d. represents the net selling price of the papers on stock, but there is no chance of this sum being realised by sales. I hold in my hand a Return of the publications, which will perhaps assist the hon. Member to obtain the information he asks for. I will let him have it.
:Do the publications include the Journals?
:Yes.
:Is there a separate column showing the cost of each publication?
:Yes.
Occasional Licences
:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, his attention having been called to the matter, he intends to take any steps to prevent the Commissioners of Inland Revenue construing the Act 26 & 27 Vic. c. 73, s. 20, according to what they consider its spirit, but against its wording, by granting occasional licences permitting the sale of drink after 10 p.m. for any entertainments or amusements other than a public dinner or ball?
:I have called the attention of the Inland Revenue to the strict letter of the law, which I have no doubt will be observed in the future; but I do not consider that the action of the Magistrates, in extending to smoking concerts given in the Town Hall the exemption allowed in the case of public dinners and balls, is one calling for serious animadversion.
:Is not the action of the Magistrates against the law?
:I do not regard the matter as being of sufficient importance to call for any interference.
Uganda
:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Uganda Estimate, laid upon the Table on Tuesday, will be in the hands of Members; and to what date is the Debate to be postponed?
:At the same time that the right hon. Gentleman answers that question perhaps he would find it convenient to give the House a general idea of the course of business for next week.
:I propose on Monday next to take the remaining Budget Resolutions, and to make progress with the financial proposals of the Government. That is the main business that I can fix at present. In answer to the question of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean, I have to state that the Uganda Estimate will be distributed at once. The prolongation of the discussion on the Scotch Grand Committee has necessarily postponed the Debate, which was fixed for to-morrow, on Uganda. The fixing of the date for the Uganda Vote must now depend upon the progress of public business.
The Budget Proposals
* :I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state how much of the increased receipts estimated by him for the present and future years from the proposed increase in the Death Duties is due to the changes in the Succession Duty; to the graduation of the new Estate Duty personalty; to the imposition of the new Estate Duty on realty; and whether he proposes to increase the Stamp Duty now payable on the property of Bodies Corporate and unincorporate to an extent corresponding with the increased Death Duties on the property of individuals?
:Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will at the same time say whether the proposals for the increased duties on spirits and beer will be permanent, or will only apply to the current financial year?
:Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to lay upon the Table any explanatory statement with reference to the Budget?
:I will make a statement upon those points in the discussion on the Resolution relating to the Death Duties, which I propose to fix for Monday next. I have directed an explanatory paper on the subject of the proposed changes in the Death Duties to be prepared, and I hope it will be in the hands of Members to-night. But I must point out that no really accurate information on this subject, which is of a highly technical character, can be furnished, except in the Customs and In- land Revenue Bill, which can only be introduced when the Resolutions are passed; and I would observe that the Paper laid on the Table by Mr. Childers was explanatory of the Budget Bill and not of the Resolution, the Resolution having been passed on the first night without opposition. I may take this opportunity of stating, in reply to a question which was put to me on Tuesday last by the hon. Member for North Kerry, that, having regard to the impending inquiries as to the relative incidence of taxation in the several parts of the United Kingdom, I think it is a fair demand, and it is only right that the proposals in the Budget for au increase of duties and upon spirits should take effect only for the present financial year.
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Resolution on the Succession Duty will be taken first on Monday, or the Resolution on the Income Tax? Considering how very intricate and complicated the change in Death Duties is, cannot the right hon. Gentleman give the House longer time to consider both the explanatory statement which is to be circulated and the whole question generally?
:The usual and convenient course is to take the Resolutions, and then to have the Bill and discuss the proposals on that. That was the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian with reference to Mr. Childers's Budget. It is the proper way; and, indeed, the only possible way is to get on to the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill as soon as may be; because the House will find in that Bill what they cannot know otherwise—the details of the method by which we propose to deal with this intricate subject. We propose to take the Death Duty Resolution first on Monday and then the other Resolutions.
:Do the Government propose to introduce the Welsh Disestablishment Bill next week?
:I hope that we may be able to do that; but I would rather reserve a definite statement until the Home Secretary returns to town. I hope we shall find an opportunity of introducing the Bill next week.
:I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think that the duty on whisky is high enough already; and whether that duty is not out of all proportion to the duty on the Englishman's beer?
* :That question can scarcely arise at the present moment.
Business of the House
:May I ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, as there is no intention on this side of the House to oppose the Parochial Electors (Registration Acceleration) Bill, he will give the House sufficient time to consider the provisions before the Second Reading is taken?
:Yes, Sir; if the House will allow me to introduce the Bill to-night, I will postpone the Second Reading for at least a week.
The Crimes Act Repeal Act
:I wish to ask the Chief Secretary a question of which I have been unable to give him notice, but which he will, I think, be able to answer. Yesterday, by a large majority, the House of Commons passed the Second Reading of a Bill for repealing the Irish Coercion Act. I ask him if he will confer with the Leader of the House and his colleagues in the Government to see whether it is possible, consistently with the due progress of other business, to give facilities for the further stages of the Bill?
:I will consult my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
The Marking of Foreign Meat
:I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Committee appointed by the House of Lords on the 17th instant will be empowered to consider the Marking of Foreign and Colonial Meat (No. 2) Bill, and also the other Bills on the same and kindred subjects, which have been introduced in the House of Commons?
:My right hon. Friend has requested me to answer this question. As I understand, the inquiries of the Committee of the House of Lords which was appointed last Session, and has now been re-appointed, are complete so far as meat is concerned, and inasmuch as the Committee had before them the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for the Altrincham Division last Session, which is closely analogous to the Bill to which the hon. Member refers, I should scarcely suppose that the Committee would consider it necessary to re-open that portion of the subject committed to them. But the matter is scarcely one with regard to which it is for me to express an opinion, and if the Committee decided to re-consider the proposals embodied in the Bills now before the House, there is nothing to prevent them from doing so.
Missing Vessels
:I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the number of vessels reported to his Department as missing during each of the last three years for which the accounts have been made up, and the number of inquiries into cases of missing ships which have been held in each of those three years respectively?
:The number of vessels belonging to the United Kingdom which were reported to the Board of Trade as missing during the last three years for which the accounts have been made up—namely, years ended June, 1891, 1892, and 1893, were 69, 59, and 32 respectively. The corresponding numbers for the years 1881, 1882, and 1883 were 126, 172, and 152. Inquiry was made by officers of the Board of Trade in every case, but formal inquiries were held in only six cases in 1891, two cases in 1892, and three cases in 1893. Since June last inquiries have been ordered in 14 cases. Each case is carefully considered, and inquiry is ordered in any case in which it is thought that it can be usefully held.
Military Expenditure in India
:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he would grant a Return showing the yearly increase of the military expenditure of India, in that country and in England, from 1875 to 1893?
:There is no objection to granting such a Return. I will confer with my hon. Friend as to its form.
Freed Slaves
:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he could state to the House what number of slaves have been freed since 1888 within the territory of the British East Africa Company, and what number during the game period on the neighbouring station by Her Majesty's Naval Forces, and as to the latter at what cost; whether, in the event of the administration of the coast reverting to the Sultan of Zanzibar by the surrender of the Company's concession, provision will be made that the arrangements and treaties concluded by the Company for the protection of aboriginal tribes from slavery and for facilitating the redemption of slaves will continue in effective operation; and whether, in view of the Imperial grants recommended by Sir Gerald Portal towards the cost of administration in Uganda and British East Africa, any aid for the same purpose has at any time been granted, or proposed to be granted, to the British East Africa Company while it continued responsible for occupation and administration; if not, what resources were available for purposes of administration by the Company?
* :The number of slaves said by the British East Africa Company to have been freed by them since 1888 is 3,015. The number freed by Her Majesty's Naval Forces during the same period is 1,287. The cost is mainly that of all Her Majesty's ships engaged in the suppression of the Slave Trade, and I cannot give a separate estimate of this particular portion of it. No such arrangements or treaties as those referred to could properly be made by the Company within the territory covered by the concession of the Sultan of Zanzibar, nor have they been made. The only grant made to the Company was the sum of £10,000 voted last year for the prolongation of the occupation of Uganda; and with regard to the resources of the Company, I must ask the hon. Baronet to refer to the Reports of the Directors.
The Cavan Land Commission
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Bomford, who is now acting as valuer for the Land Commission in County Cavan, was formerly agent to a large landlord in the county; that he is related to that landlord, and to several other landlords in the county, and to Mr. Barnes, the principal valuer for the landlords in the county in fair rent cases; that he was formerly a member of a Sub-Commission in the county, and removed to another county on account of his close connection with the landed interest there; and whether these facts were known to Mr. Wrench and other members of the Commission when Mr. Bomford was sent as valuer to Cavan?
:The Land Commissioners have not yet fully replied to the inquiries which I have addressed to them on this subject, and I must ask my hon. Friend, therefore, to be good enough to again postpone the question.
:I should like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact I put this question down two days ago?
:Yes; but the reply I have received is not sufficiently full.
Catholic Magistrates in Antrim
:I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland how many Catholic Magistrates are resident in the Petty Sessions district of Toome, County Antrim; whether, owing to the want of Magistrates resident in the district, Magistrates from another district had to attend recently in order to hold Petty Sessions; and whether steps will be taken to remove the present grievance?
:I am informed that there are no Roman Catholic Magistrates resident in this district. There has been, however, no want of a Court of Petty Sessions at Toome by reason of the absence of Magistrates resident in the district. As to the last paragraph, the Lord Chancellor some time since made selections for the County Antrim Bench of Magistrates which will meet, amongst others, the case of the Toome District.
Irish Telegraph Employés
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General, with reference to Clause 10 of Treasury Order of the loth of August, 1890, in how many cases of postal or telegraph employés in Ireland has this order been put in force since the date of its issue; how many surveyors, assistant surveyors, and postmasters of head post offices are now over the age limit; and, if any, what are the particular circumstances that exist in each case for the suspension of this Order; and whether he would now consider it expedient in the interests of the greater efficiency of the Public Service to enforce its provisions in every instance in which it is applicable?
:In Ireland the clause to which the hon. Member refers has been put in force in every case. In reply to the second paragraph, there are not any of the officers named to whom the clause applies and who are over the age limit. The hon. Member is possibly not aware that the Order in Council to which he refers applies only to officers who are placed on Scales or drawing Salaries in excess of those of the Second Division.
Swaziland
:I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Her Majesty's Government are unable to carry out the arrangement entered into with the South African Republic for the transfer of Swaziland to that Republic; whether it is true that many of the indunas favourable to the arrangement have been murdered at the instigation of the Queen Regent; and whether, as stated, the condition of affairs is dangerous and a massacre is apprehended?
:The position at the present moment is this: A Convention was negotiated between Her Majesty's Government and the South African Republic under which the latter were to be at liberty to negotiate an Organic Proclamation with the Swazi people for taking over the administration of the country, without, however, incorporating it into the Republic. This Organic Proclamation has been submitted to Her Majesty's Government. The South African Republic are now in negotiation with the Swazis in order to obtain their assent to the Organic Proclamation. As regards the last two questions, we have no confirmation of the rumours, but are in communication with the Officer Administering the Government on the whole subject.
Newspaper Post
:I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he proposes to continue the practice of carrying newspapers weighing six or eight ounces for ½d., seeing that the book post rate of two ounces for a ½d. involves a loss to the Department?
:The Act of Parliament of 1870 (33 & 34 Vic. c. 79) gives special privileges to newspapers, as distinguished from other printed matter passing through the post; and, notwithstanding the loss of revenue resulting from the conveyance of newspapers, I do not at the present moment contemplate legislation with a view to withdrawing or restricting those privileges, though the subject is one which deserves, and is receiving, careful consideration.
Motions
Parochial Electors (Registration Acceleration) Bill
Motion for Leave
* :I have to ask the leave of the House to introduce a Bill to accelerate the Registration of Parochial Electors in England and Wales in the present year. As the House will recollect, under the Local Government Act of last Session the 8th of November was fixed as the day for the election of the new Parish Councils, and it was understood at the time that a Bill would be introduced to facilitate the registration of the electors. In the course of negotiations with the Leader of the Opposition, it was arranged that this matter should be treated as non-contentious, subject to two conditions—one, that the day on which the Parliamentary Register came into effect should not be altered, and the other that no expense should be thrown on Local Authorities by the acceleration of the Parochial Register. The acceleration of the Parochial Register involves the acceleration of some of the stages of the Parliamentary Register, but no change in the date when the Parliamentary Register is to come into effect. After much consideration of the matter, I have come to the conclusion that it will not be possible to complete the Register of parochial electors in order that the election for the Parish Councils may take place on November 8, and that if any attempt were made to do that there would be serious risk of a defective Register. The Bill, therefore, provides that the Parochial Register shall come into operation on November 22nd, and the Revising Barristers will be required to commence their duties five days earlier—namely, on September 3, in lieu of September 8. The Bill also proposes to shorten the period of revision by a fortnight, reducing it from five weeks to three weeks, and the period allowed to clerks of County Councils for the completion and printing of the Register will be shortened by 10 days. If additional Revising Barristers become necessary to complete the revision with three weeks, instead of five weeks, the whole cost is to be borne by the Treasury, and no part of it by the Local Authorities, as at present. If the House agrees to the Bill, it will be possible to hold the first meetings of the Parish Councils within a few days after November 22. The Bill is in strict accord with the arrangement to which I have referred, and I hope the House, therefore, will at once consent to its introduction.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to Accelerate the .Registration of Parochial Electors in England and Wales in the present year."—( Mr. Shaw-Lefevre. )
Motion agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Shaw-Lefevre and Sir J. T. Hibbert.
Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 175.]
Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill
Motion For Leave
"I may say that I don't see what objection there could be to an extension of the 13th clause of the Land Act… I am of opinion that the tenants ought to approach Mr. Balfour on the question if they wish to hope for anything. I may remark that I am quite prepared to admit that it is most desirable that some equitable measure should be passed in the interests of those evicted tenants, who, it appears, have suffered much; but this can only be accomplished by an agreement between the Unionists and Gladstonians. The subject, being a social as well as a political one, demands attention, and I shall be prepared to assist in an equitable settlement."
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin used still fuller language pointing in the same direction. He said—
"He himself should be in favour of any well-considered Bill for that purpose. It was desirable that they should be generous in their treatment of these tenants, for they went out at a time when Ireland was greatly agitated, and when men lost their heads and ceased to be masters of themselves…. A new arrangement was necessary, and if the Government brought in a reasonable Bill he should be willing to give it all the support he could, and he believed it would be the policy of the Unionist Party to give it an unhesitating support."
The hon. Member for South Tyrone, in an article recently published, goes so far as to say that —
"Although the Government proposals may be immoral, revolutionary, or novel, any effort to deal with the state of affairs at once so dangerous and so extraordinary ought to be fairly considered and judged."
I will not quote language which was used so far back as 1891 by the hon. Member for South Hunts, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Manchester said—
"And for my own part, if I were an Irish landlord, oven if it were not wholly to my own personal and pecuniary interests, I should desire to restore peace to that part of the country in which my property was situated, and to see that on fair, equitable, and even generous terms the tenants were restored to their ancient homes."
I am not assuming that declarations of this kind from the two sections of the Opposition ought to bind them to support the proposals which I shall have the honour of laying before the House; but, at all events, they encourage me to hope that these proposals will receive reasonable and fair consideration. I will not go into the origin of this mischievous business, because it seems to me we shall
"The present condition of the evicted farms on many of the estates is deplorable. The land has gone to waste. Fields, once cultivated and fairly productive, are now covered with furze and weeds. Tracts reclaimed by the industry of the tenants from bog or mountain are returning to their original condition. The former tenants, with little or no occupation, hang about their old farms, and have never relinquished the hope of reinstatement. It is not surprising that, in view of this condition of things, the authorities have considered the presence of an additional police force on many of the estates advisable."
On the occasion when I first spoke on this matter, after I had come to Office, I referred to the cost to the State of this deplorable state of things. For that I was attacked rather severely, and it was said that crime and disorder must be put clown at whatever cost. I will not dwell upon that argument, because it is one not entirely relevant; but if I can show that there are means of putting an end to this source of disorder, and if it would save a certain amount of expenditure which could be applied to
"I think it unfortunate that we have to use the expression ' landlord and tenant.' If we used instead some such phrase as landlord part owner and tenant part owner it would contribute to clearness on the subject."
[
was understood to say that his interruption had reference to the tenant having a certain share in the freehold.
:Well, then, the noble Lord agrees with the Archbishop, and thus we have emphasised the partnership or dual ownership. Let the House recollect what it is that Parliament has said on three different occasions to the Irish landlord. By the Act of 1870 Parliament said to the Irish landlord, "If you want to turn the tenant out you shall pay him compensation for disturbing him "—not merely for improvements. In 1881 Parliament went further, and it said to the landlord, "You shall not only not turn him out without compensation, but you shall not exact from him a higher rent than a Land Court shall decide is a fair and proper rent." I may be told that these were measures passed by a Liberal Government that lacked interest in property, but Parliament went still further in 1887, when the right hon. Gentleman brought in a Bill which said to the landlord—"You shall not only not turn the tenant out without compensation, you shall not only not exact from him more than what the Court thinks to be a fair rent, but you shall for a certain number of years receive a lower rent than that which the Court had three or four years ago decided was fair." Therefore, if we examine this subject fairly and reasonably, we must admit this is a fundamental divergence between the Irish and the English Codes. Now, I shall describe to the House as briefly as I can the state of things in Ireland which justifies the proposals that we make. I have shown what steps the late Government took in order to deal with the mischief, and I have also reminded the House of the position which the Irish landlord now holds and which the tenant now holds. I will proceed to describe what our proposals are. They are rather intricate, and gentlemen will do well to reserve anything like full or definite criticism of our proposals until they have seen the Bill in print, which I think I may say will be in 24 hours from now. The foundation of our proposal is the institution of a Board of three arbitrators, whose office is to last for three years. The proposal that arbitrators are to enter into this question may at first startle hon. Gentlemen, but you recollect that you employed a Department as arbitrators to settle a question far more important and of wider range than this—namely, the fixing of agricultural rents in Ireland. Therefore, the idea of applying arbitration to the agrarian problem is not new. I have said that one reason why the 13th section failed was that time enough was not given for the making of agreements; but there was another reason, and that was the tenant was shy of approaching the landlord and the landlord was slow —was unwilling—to approach the tenant, because each of them feared that any overture would be interpreted as a sign of weakness. It is because we believe this, and because of the reluctance of the two parties to approach each other, that we propose to set up this Board or Court of Arbitration. In our opinion, settlements are much more likely to be arrived at if the procedure is changed and a tribunal set up than if we left the parties to approach each other. We think it will greatly facilitate a settlement that there shall be a neutral body to resort to to enable the parties to come to terms. It will be said, "Why have a separate tribunal? Why not intrust these functions to the Land Commission?" Well, we considered that suggestion with the greatest care. It is one on which we received a great deal of conflicting advice from competent persons, and we came to the conclusion, first, that the Land Commission has quite enough to do, and, in the second place, that their permanent and ordinary functions are of a character which makes it desirable to exclude them from duties which might subject them to suspicion and charges. We desire to attract rather than to force the landlord and tenant, and we think we have taken one of the best ways to bring about a settlement between the parties. We take a separate Board to do this special work, and we believe it will do that work more rapidly than the Land Commission can do it. We must all see that these matters would be entangling work for the Land Commission. So much for the tribunal. I will now describe the procedure. We first of all take the case of land which is evicted land still in the occupation of the landlord. Our Bill will affect tenants whose holdings have been determined since 1879. Within one year from the passing of the Act the evicted tenant may petition the arbitrators to be reinstated as tenant of his holding, and the arbitrators are to consider whether there is a primâ, facie case for reinstatement. I shall be told, no doubt, that this is a very loose expression. What is a primâ facie case? But the words by which I propose to guard the expression " primâ facie case for reinstatement " are—
"Owing to the circumstances of the district and the circumstances under which the eviction took place, or some other cause which may appear to them to be sufficient."
The first thing that has then to be done is a Petition from the tenant praying for reinstatement, and the second is the formation of the view in the mind of the arbitrators that the tenant has made out a primâ facie case. On these grounds the arbitrators will make a conditional Order for reinstatement, and serve a notice both of the Petition and the conditional Order upon the landlord. If the landlord does not object of course the transaction will go on, and the conditional Order will become absolute, the evicted tenant being reinstated in his holding subject to conditions to be presently stated. But suppose the landlord does object to the Order, then the arbitrators are to hear the parties. In doing this we borrow a section from the Land Act of 1891, and we say that the arbitrators are to form an opinion on the question whether the conduct of either the landlord or the tenant has been unreasonable. or that the one has unreasonably refused any proposal made by the other. Then if that be the case, the arbitrators can dismiss the Petition on the one hand, or on the other they may make the Order absolute, subject to such condition as they may consider to be consistent with justice. I admit that the language we have imported is not exactly on all-fours with the section of the Land Act, and is applied under somewhat different circumstances, but the language we do use is employed to describe certain equities similar to those that were dealt with under the Act of 1891. Well, then, supposing the Order is made that the tenant is to be reinstated, he must go back provisionally on the old rent. He must go back on some rent, and no other than the old rent is available. But this rent is ultimately to be transformed into a fair rent after an investigation either by the arbitrators or the Land Commission. If the landlord and tenant agree, then the arbitrators may fix the rent exactly as the Land Commission might do it. If, on the other hand, they do not agree, the tenant will, of course, be the possessor of a tenancy, and he would have a right, as any other tenant has, to to go before the Land Commission and have a fair rent fixed.
:Will this affect vacant land?
:We are now dealing entirely with land which is in occupation of the landlord.
asked whether land which was being cultivated by the landlord was to be deemed vacant land or derelict?
:It is difficult enough to deal with the subject without going into these details. All I can say is that I have confined this explanation to a holding which is in possession of the landlord. Now I come to a financial provision which will, no doubt, be of great interest to the House. If the arbitrators think fit they may direct payment to the landlord for arrears and costs not exceeding two years of the old rent. The House will remember that the Cowper Commission recommended that no rent should be recoverable beyond two years, and I think a most wholesome reformation would take place in Irish land practice if that could be made law. The arbitrators may make to the landlord a free grant of one-half of that sum out of moneys to be placed at their disposal by Parliament. The other half is to be secured or paid by the tenant. I may point out that there is a precedent, and a most remarkable precedent, for that in the Arrears Act of 1882, where, in the case of the insolvency of the tenant, the State advanced one year's rent, and the condition precedent was that the tenant should himself have in hand a year's rent of his own. Therefore the notion that every evicted tenant, or most of them, are absolutely insolvent, and unable to find any portion of money for the landlord to discharge arrears and costs, is not entirely conformable to the facts. I will say further that Parliament would have a right to expect the friends of the tenants, wherever they may be, to help them to provide this sum. If the State comes forward to pay half the sum, it is not unreasonable to expect that the other half will be forthcoming from the tenant. Then we had to consider in this connection whether these advances of one-half for arrears and costs should be made by way of loan or free grant, and we came to the conclusion, with a view to bringing about a real settlement, to make it a free grant and not a loan. I should like to say in reference to that course that gentlemen who speak lightly of it can hardly have looked into the Blue Books with the records of evidence taken before it, because it is impossible to found a sound and full and comprehensive and exhaustive judgment unless you have dipped very deeply indeed into that volume. The landlord is not to be left without any option. We propose that if he likes he may require the petitioner to purchase instead of taking him back as a tenant. He may insist on the transaction of purchase. The arbitrators in that case are to fix the price, and if the petitioner refuses to purchase at that price he forfeits his claim for re-instatement. If the order as to price is made absolute, the arbitrator would then proceed to fix the tenant in the holding and transfer Guaranteed Land Stock equal in nominal amount to the price to the landlord, just as the Land Commission would do in a similar transaction. We propose one difference, which is not unimportant. The House is aware that, as the law now stands, in these transactions of purchase one-fifth of the purchase-money is re- tained in the hands of the Land Commission for something like 18 years. We propose not to retain in these cases the landlord's one-fifth. It may interest the House to know what is the operation of the Land Purchase Act in this respect. It appears that from 1885 down to March 31 last the total amount which the Land Commission applied out of guarantee deposits to meet the default of purchasers was £2,406 18s. 6d., on purchases representing about £10,000,000 sterling, and that no guarantee deposit has been so applied in the case of any advance made under the Land Purchase Act of 1891. This shows that in foregoing this deposit of the landlord's fifth we are not asking the State to encounter any serious risk. If the default on £10,000,000 be only a little over £2,400, then at the same ratio for, say, £500,000 under this Bill the possible risk would be less than £125. We give no power of compulsory purchase, and unless the landlord actually requests that the transaction shall be settled by the sale of the land by way of reinstatement there is no sale at all. The tenant has no option between restoration and purchase, and has no right to insist on purchase. In fact, when the tenant is put back on the land he has no rights in relation to it beyond what the tenant has at the present moment. So much for the provisions as to the land in the occupation of the landlord; but I may add that we propose, in cases where the arbitrator thinks it desirable, he may be empowered to advance to the reinstated tenant whose house has been destroyed or dilapidated a small sum, not to exceed £50, for putting up a house or place in which the tenant can live. I will now turn to the more difficult question as to land in the occupation of a new tenant with a substantial interest in the holding. According to the evidence given before the Mathew Commission, the number of these tenants is not very large; but whether it is large or small, the principle we propose to apply will be the same. The proceeding in cases where the land has been let to new tenants will be this: the evicted tenant is to petition as before; a notice is to be served on the new tenant of this petition, and upon that the new tenant may object, and if he objects we say that that must be treated as an absolute block on the jurisdiction of the arbitrators which could not be revived as long as the objection remains on the file. I think it will be felt that in that provision, though it may lead to some difficulty, we have consulted what will be the feeling of the majority of the House of Commons and of Parliament, and what will be deemed most equitable under all the circumstances of the case. But let us suppose the new tenant does not object. Then, of course, the arbitrator will treat the laud as if it were in the possession or occupation of the landlord, but on certain conditions attaching to the land. The arbitrator is to determine the compensation which is to be paid to the new sitting tenant for his disappearance, and if he thinks fit he may advance one-half of the sum so proposed to be paid to the new tenant, leaving the other half to be paid by the tenant who desires to come in.
:How far does the Bill go back?
:It will include all cases between 1879 and the date of the passing of the measure—all cases where the arbitrators think there is a primâ facie case for reinstatement, from 1887 downwards. As to the question of funds, we propose that £100,000 shall be charged on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund [ Cries of "Oh!"] Well, it is an Irish fund. This fund has nothing to do with purchase transactions which have been made in the ordinary way. It will be placed at the disposal of the arbitrators for the purposes of this Bill. Of course the official staff, which will be a small one, or, at any rate, will not be considerable, will be paid out of moneys voted by Parliament. That and the salaries of the arbitrators constitute the only charge which will fall on the British taxpayer as far as the provisions of this Bill go. This sum of £100,000 will have to meet the half arrears to the landlord, the half compensation to the tenant, and a sum not exceeding £50 in the case of holdings where there is no house for the tenant to live in. I will now give some figures showing the number of holdings on the 17 estates especially inquired into by the Evicted Tenants' Commission which might come before the arbitrators. The total number of evicted holdings—the expression is not grammatical, but it is useful—on these estates was 1,350. The tenants were reinstated in 414 cases, and new tenants, commonly called "planters," settled with the old tenants in 15 cases, making together 429. Nine hundred and twenty-one cases therefore remain to be dealt with. Of these holdings there are in the hands of planters as tenants 215, and in the hands of planters as purchasers 20, in all 235 holdings.
:The number of new tenants was only 102.
:That is so; 235 holdings are in the hands of 102 planters. Then there are in the hands of landlords, land corporations, and similar bodies 482 holdings, and there also lying derelict 204. The rental of the entire 1,350 holdings is £21,230, and on the 921 holdings will be about £14,500. So much for the 17 estates which, after all, are the principal seats of the mischief with which we have to deal. But, besides all this, applications come from the enormous body of 2,755 evicted tenants who desired to be heard before the Mathew Commission. The rental of those tenants was, roughly speaking, £100,000, and the amount of arrears said to be due was £221,000, or rather more. If I were asked what proportion of this large number of evicted tenants is likely to be comprehended within the scope and operation of the Bill now before the House, I am obliged to say it is almost impossible for me to offer any sound or reliable data. One cannot tell now many of these 2,755 cases were cases such as it is proposed to deal with under this Bill. All I can say is that for the 921 cases on the 17 estates already referred to as being the main centre of the mischief, assuming that in every case the landlord received from the arbitrators one year's rent, and about the same sum went for building grants, and a similar sum went for compensation in the case of the new tenants, it is probable that something like from £30,000 to £35,000 would meet all the demands. But it is impossible to say now with anything like accuracy what is the precise number of cases that will have to be dealt with under the Bill. That is a matter which the arbitrators, will have to decide. If the arbitrators are fully seized with the policy of the Bill, no doubt they will come to a right conclusion in all cases that come before them.
What about the new tenants who purchase?
:In the case of the new tenants who purchase notices will be served, and if they purchase there is an end of the matter. The hon. Member for South Tyrone (Mr. T. W. Russell), in the article he has published, says—
"It is a serious thing to have hundreds and thousands of men or women in the position of these poor people. Whatever can be done safely and honourably to relieve the strain ought to be done."
Well, Sir, that is the object of the present proposal, and if this Government did not attempt the task they are now undertaking the problem that has to be solved would still more urgently confront their successors. It has been suggested by the hon. Member that a re-enactment of the 13th section of the Land Purchase Act of 1891 with such Amendments as have been suggested by experience would meet all the necessities of the case. I am somewhat amazed to find hon. Gentlemen using language of that kind, because that section does not work at all, and we have had no experience of how it would work. We have had no experience of what Amendments ought to be made in it. I have thought for a good many mouths over this difficult and trying question, and I am persuaded that an attempt to solve it on the lines of Section 13 alone, without some such provisions as those introduced to-night, would be worse than futile. All I can say is, that this proposal is brought forward in no spirit of partisanship, and with no desire to give to either Party in this deep and fierce agrarian dispute in Ireland a triumph over the other. It is designed to heal a deep wound in the social condition of Ireland, and in the spirit of healing I commend it to the fair consideration of the House.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to facilitate and make provision for the restoration of Evicted Tenants to their Holdings in Ireland." —( Mr. J. Morley. )
:The closing words of the right hon. Gentleman were not, like some perorations that I have heard in this House, in antagonism to the general tenour of his speech, for from the beginning to end of that speech we all, I think, recognised that he felt the gravity and difficulty of the problem with which he had to deal, and was profoundly alive to the great advantages that would accrue both to the prospects of the Bill in general and the dignity of our discussions upon the subject if, at all events at this early stage of our proceedings, irritating topics were avoided. The right hon. Gentleman has set me an example in that matter that I shall be very careful to follow. I shall not, therefore, say one single word with regard to a subject on which we had very hot disputes about a year ago. I will not even mention the Mathew Commission, and offer no criticism either upon the very distinguished Judge who was at the head of it or anybody else who was connected with its proceedings. Indeed, the Mathew Commission, excepting in so far as the evidence collected by it may have been availed of, appears not to have had very much weight with the right hon. Gentleman in framing his Bill. I rather think his scheme is entirely of his own devising, one to which the Commission he appointed has, I think, had nothing to say. The right hon. Gentleman began, as was only natural, by discussing the methods in which the late Government attempted to deal with the admitted difficulty arising out of the fact that the large number of evicted farms existing in Ireland to which the tenants are anxious to get back undoubtedly constitute, until they get back, a source of public difficulty and danger. The right hon. Gentleman's chief objection to that plan was that, whatever merits Clause 13 of the Land Purchase Act of 1891 might have possessed, it had this one overwhelming demerit, that hardly any tenants and hardly any landlords availed themselves of it, and he said that under these circumstances the Government were forced to construct a new plan which would more effectively carry out the objects the old plan was unable to accomplish. Why has Section 13 failed? The right hon. Gentleman said because only six months were allowed for landlord and tenant to settle, and it is possible that six months was rather too short a period; but I think we must admit that if a serious effort had been made by those who claim, especially in this House and in Ireland, to be the tenants' friends and by the Organisation they so ably control to make that clause a success, an enormous number of settlements would have been come to. I hope I am not doing an injustice to any gentleman, either in or out of the House, when I say that possibly they thought that a too rapid settlement of this question might have been embarrassing to ulterior objects. Whether I am right or wrong in that—and I do not wish to impute motives, at all events on the First Reading of this Bill, or say anything in the nature of embittering controversy—I think it will be admitted that if the whole strength of the Irish Nationalist Organisation had been thrown into making that section a success, undoubtedly the problem which now faces the right hon. Gentleman would long ago have been solved. Before I come to the details of the proposal, I must say one word with regard to his statement touching the peculiarities of Irish land tenure. He said that you must not come to the consideration of a question like this with your minds filled with presuppositions derived from your knowledge of English and Scotch tenure; that we must not talk of landlord and tenant in Ireland as we talk of landlord and tenant in England and Scotland, for by the Act of 1881, Parliament had put the Irish tenant into a position in which he had ceased really to be a tenant and had become a co-partner with the landlord in the soil, and, therefore, said the right hon. Gentleman, " you really must look at him as an owner who has been, unrighteously or hardly to himself, deprived of something in the nature of freehold property." I admit that the tenant has been granted by the Legislature a sort of property, not in the soil, but in his improvements on the soil, which does not obtain in any other part of the Kingdom, except, perhaps, in the crofter districts of Scotland. I do not object to the House keeping this peculiarity of Irish land tenure in mind, but let them recollect other privileges which the Legislature has conferred on those tenants, and which they deliberately refused to exercise when, in obedience to the Plan of Campaign, or for other reasons, they refused to pay rent. The State, in giving the Irish tenant property in his improvements on the soil, gave him no gift the full payment of which he was unable to enforce. On the contrary, the State said—
"We give you property in the improvements on your farm, and you must pay the rent of that farm. If you do not pay the rent, you go out of the farm, but you do not on that account lose your right of property in your holding. We will protect you from that, and we will give you the right to appeal to the Court and say that full compensation shall be given you for those improvements."
In addition the State said—
"Every tenant put out of his holding for nonpayment of rent has not only a right to the full value of his improvements, but also, if his rent is under £15 a year, will have in addition to all the property we have given him, compensation for disturbance."
How comes it that these tenants did not go to the Court and claim these rights? How is it that tenants evicted for the non-payment of rent have been deprived of their property in the improvements in the soil? Absolutely for no other reason than their own fault, or the bad advice which was given by those who controlled their actions. Therefore, let the House recollect that when we are dealing with these poor tenants, however hard it may have been for them to have been turned out of their holdings, ample provision was made that when turned out they should not lose a single sixpence of the property that we had created in their behalf and transferred to them. If it is lost to them it is by their own default alone. I think that is a matter which is very constantly forgotten by English critics of Irish Land Acts and Irish land tenure. There is no hardship whatever of the kind suggested by the right hon. Gentleman inflicted on these people, unless they themselves choose to refuse that remedy, which we have in no ungenerous spirit contrived for their protection. I now come to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman, with a view to eliciting from the Government explanation on those points which seem defective, and arguments on those points which seem difficult to defend. My first criticism is this, that having, at great cost to the community, already set on foot a Laud Commission, which may deal both with fair rents and purchase, we are now erecting side by side with that a new tribunal of three gentlemen to deal not only with fair rent and purchase, but many other difficult questions. I do not say that it would be fair to the Land Commission to throw this work on them —I feel that it would lay them open to suspicion of unfairness from one side or the other, and would throw a burden of responsibility on them that would overweight that great Department. But when you are erecting a Board of Arbitration for three years, who are to settle side by side with the Land Commission, and in the same districts and at the same time, what are fair rents and fair terms of purchase, you run a risk of collision between your temporary and permanent authority, and there is a great danger that you will find these two absolutely independent tribunals settling precisely the same kind of questions on different principles and in different ways. I think you will find that if this new body fixes rents at a lower level than the Land Commission, working in the same place, and at the same period, or if it pledges the taxpayers' money on different terms to those which the Land Commission thinks proper, you will have an amount of discontent aroused against the Land Commission as great as anything likely to be aroused if you made them the tribunal for settling this question. I would like to ask him what precautions are taken—if it is left to his own discretion, or, if not, what precautions are taken to settle these three gentlemen?
:That is put in the Bill.
:I thank the right hon. Gentleman. I think it is important to consider for one moment what the responsibilities are which you throw upon this Board. To fix fair rents is difficult enough; to fix the terms of purchase is no easy matter; but these two great tasks sink absolutely into insignificance beside the difficult labour which you throw upon this Board in asking them to decide without, apparently, any direction or guide, or signpost as to which way to go—what is or is not a primâ facie case which would justify a landlord in getting rid of his tenant, and under what circumstances it would be a great hardship to carry out an eviction. Now just consider how this question would be differently determined by men of undoubted honesty sitting in this House. I have no doubt if you appealed to myself—and I hope I should look at the question, I will not say with impartiality, but with an honest desire to be impartial—and asked me whether I thought the fact that the tenants had joined the Plan of Campaign in the disturbed districts was even a primâ facie reason to form a case in favour of their being restored to their farms, I should certainly say precisely the reverse; for I should say that the tenant, who, through difficulties arising from bad seasons or other adverse circumstances, found himself in a position which prevented him from paying his rent and from that cause had been obliged to leave his farm, is a man far more deserving of a public subvention than those gentlemen who engaged in a conspiracy declared to be illegal, and who were not forced into the deplorable position in which they find themselves by their inability to pay rent. That is the decision I should give. But suppose you were to apply to the hon. Member for Waterford, who, I have no doubt, would give his mind, with equal impartiality, to the same difficult problem. He, no doubt, would return an entirely different verdict with regard to what constituted a primâ facie case. He would say, as between the two classes of tenants—the unfortunate, and the conspiring tenant—that the conspiring tenant deserved the best of his country. He would say that such a man sacrificed his all in a great national struggle, he was a man ready to brave poverty and all the loss incident to being driven from his ancestral home, not for a selfish object, not because, through his own lack of good farming or mismanagement, he was unable to meet his engagements, but because he was a patriot, and being a patriot, of course, was especially deserving well of the Patriotic Fund, or funds belonging to Ireland, which is to be taxed to meet the requirements of this case. I want to know how these persons whom you are going to appoint are going to steer between these two obstacles? When you set up a Judge you give him laws to carry out and some general principles upon which to administer those laws; but when you set up your tribunal of three men and tell them merely that they are to decide cases according to the circumstances of the locality, and the incidents attending evictions, and decide whether the tenant is to be practically compulsorily put back in his holding, then I venture to say that you are imposing a duty on those men which they will not be able to fulfil without some guidance from the Legislature of this country. I pass from this, which is, after all, a vital portion of the Bill, to the particular method which the right hon. Gentleman has adopted in dealing with the two classes of farms—those which are in the occupation of the landlords, which I understand to be those which are either derelict or being cultivated by the landlords or those which are actually in the cultivation of some tenant or owner who has been introduced since the original eviction. On this I wish to ask a question about the bonus which is to be given, as I understand it, out of funds voted by Parliament?
:Not funds voted by Parliament—placed at their disposal by Parliament.
:I was wrong—placed at their disposal by Parliament, half out of the Church Fund and half to be secured by the tenant. I venture to put this question to the right hon. Gentleman. How is that compensation to be given to the landlord if the tenant is insolvent, or has no security for the whole of the amount for which he becomes bound under the Bill? In fixing the amount to be paid to the landlord I should like to ask whether this Judicial Commission to which you give Executive functions are or are not to take into account the ability of the tenant to pay his half? Evidently that is a most important matter from the landlords' point of view, and if these three Commissioners are to cut down the whole amount to such a point that the tenant will be able easily to pay his half, it would be obvious that landlords would suffer a very great injury. The landlord of an insolvent tenant would get an amount less than the sum paid by a solvent tenant whose security is good. I ventured to put this question to the right hon. Gentleman at an earlier stage, and he did not answer it. Perhaps he is not able to give an answer to it until the Bill is before us. I hope he will bear it in mind when he comes to speak again in the course of the Debate. I now pass to a more important point. As I understand the plan of the Government, if these new Commissioners, who are asked to decide upon the circumstances of the country and make out a primâ facie case for restoring the tenant to his holding, are of opinion that such a case is made out they make a conditional order putting the tenant back into his holding, and an order against which the landlord may appeal. If the appeal is heard, and the landlord's case breaks down, then I understand the tenant is put back into his holding whether the landlord likes it or not; and if the landlord does not elect to purchase, then a fair rent is fixed, not by the Fair Rent Commissioners, but by your Council of three. ["No!"]
:The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. The rent is fixed by the Council of three if both the landlord and tenant agree and desire it. If not, then the case has to go before the Land Commissioners.
:I am obliged for the interruption, but it does not alter the argument I was about to address to the House, and which is this: Under the Act of 1881 a fair rent was only to be demanded by any tenant in Ireland every 15 years. Once it is fixed he has to wait for 15 years before a further rent can be fixed and the value of his holding again revised. This, therefore, may give a very great privilege over the rest of the tenants in Ireland to those particular tenants who are put back in their holdings, whereas the tenant who had a fair rent fixed in 1886 cannot again ask to have a fair rent fixed until the year 1901. The tenant who was evicted in 1886 can have his fair rent fixed in 1894, so that the evicted tenant gains upon his brother tenant.
:He only begins the term.
:Let me put it in this way: He first had a fair rent fixed in 1883, and he gets a fair rent re-fixed at a much earlier period than he would have had if he had been an ordinary tenant acting under the Act of 1881. But there is a much more important duty, it strikes me, in connection with this than the difficulty of fixing fair rents. I want to know upon what principle this fair rent is to be fixed? Is it to be upon the condition of the farm after the man has left it, or when he returns to it? The right hon. Gentleman read from the Mathew Commission a very eloquent description of these derelict farms going to waste and practically returning to the original bog. I want to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman desires the rent to be fixed in such cases at something like prairie land value or upon the original condition of the farm when the tenant left it by his own default, presumably through the Plan of Campaign, or any other cause? I think it will make a great difference to the landlords, and it appears to me a very difficult question of equity arises, which we shall have to discuss at some later stage of the Bill. I content myself with signifying the nature of that difficulty, and I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman at the present moment to discuss it. With regard to the scheme of purchase, I will say nothing until I have had time to consider the Bill. When I first heard the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, it certainly appeared to me to be giving privileges to those tenants which many other tenants in Ireland would desire to have and cannot have. I am not at all sure that the point is not a good one—that the option should be left to the landlord, and the landlord alone. I have dealt with the case of derelict farms. I would now like to ask him how will the cases of farms be dealt with which have been cultivated by the landlord since the tenant went out, and have not only been worked at a profit by him, but have been very greatly improved; and farms which were in a bad state when the tenant left and are in a good state at the present time? On what principles are you going to fix the fair rent? I hope the directions will be placed in the Bill, which will be equitable to the landlord, and which will make it obligatory upon the council of three to do justice between the two parties. The right hon. Gentleman has seen, in my judgment very wisely, that it will be absolutely impossible, and this House would never consent that a person should procure one eviction by the carrying out of another; and it would be an intolerable injustice to come down upon a tenant who has been fulfilling his obligations and to say, " You must go away; we have had enough of you; we must put someone in your place," this man being an individual who from want of will or from want of power has failed to pay his rent on a previous occasion. Though the right hon. Gentleman has avoided the difficulty, I think the position of those tenants who have come in will be extremely difficult. You will hold them up to the public opinion of the district in which they are as men who might go under favourable terms from their holdings, but who insist on doing an injustice to the original tenant by hanging on. Probably to the majority of this House such a tenant, in electing to remain in his holding, is one to be commended, one of whom no one has a right to complain; but that will not be the opinion of the man's neighbours, who will use all the legitimate and illegitimate means at their disposal by which pressure, gentle or otherwise, can be applied to induce him to leave the holding. I must say that it would be impossible for any hon. Member to say that this is an illusory-danger when we recollect that there are Members of the Party below the Gangway who have actively recommended boycotting for the very purpose of preventing persons from taking evicted farms. I do not know that the right hon. Gentleman can in this Bill remedy this particular danger, and I have no suggestion at the moment to offer; but I hope he will feel that so long as he is responsible for the government of Ireland special precautions against boycotting and intimidation are and will be incumbent on him if he creates a new danger for the class of men whom I believe to be fully entitled to support and protection. So much for the two classes of farms. Following the order of the right hon. Gentleman's explanation, I now come to the amount to be taken from the Irish Church surplus in order to meet the necessities of the Bill. I have two observations to make on that point. First, when I was in Office, and had official means of information on those points, I was assured that the Irish Church surplus was mortgaged up to the hilt. The number of charges upon it were such that, after we had taken the £1,500,000 required for the Congested Board, practically nothing would be left behind. Whether since that time any circumstances have come to the knowledge of the Treasury the right hon. Gentleman will inform me at a later stage of the Bill; but my official advisers at that time informed me that nothing beyond the £1,500,000 was available for any public purpose; and if we are to charge that fund with £100.000, or with a larger sum, and the fund proves to be insufficient to meet the liability, it will be impossible for the British taxpayer to flatter himself that he will get off without having to make up the deficiency. Therefore, it is incumbent on the right hon. Gentleman to show us that circumstances have arisen since 1891 which place the Irish Church Surplus Fund in a more flourishing position than it was before, and which will enable him to draw on resources which I had imagined were exhausted. The second observation I have to make with regard to this fund is that it at once raises the question whether the persons on whose behalf it is to be used are those who deserve to be specially well treated at our hands. I could not deal at length with that subject now without going further into controversial matter than I wish to do at present, but we must recollect the use of this fund is for great public objects, and that to use it as a subvention for the Plan of Campaign tenants is, at all events, an object which was never contemplated by those who originally set apart the fund for the benefit of Ireland as a whole. I use the expression "Plan of Campaign" tenants, because it is evident that the whole tenour of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks shows that he was speaking of nothing but Plan of Campaign tenants; and he quoted 17 estates with regard to which the Mathew Commission took evidence. I glanced hastily through those estates, and I notice that every one of them were Plan of Campaign estates. When we speak of evicted tenants since 1879, are we speaking of Plan of Campaign tenants? The majority of the evicted tenants since 1879 never had anything to do with the Plan of Campaign, and they outnumber by thousands the comparatively insignificant number who were involved in that particular form of political agitation. On this subject the Mathew Commission did not take much evidence. The right hon. Gentleman quoted 2,700 other tenants, not Campaign estate tenants, who had applied to the Mathew Commission to be reinstated; but there is no ground for believing that this number exceeds, or anything like exceeds, the number of tenants now living who have been in occupation of farms since 1879, and who, either for arrears of rent or for other reasons, have ceased to be tenants of those farms. I recollect hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway night after night giving us sensational descriptions of evictions which were taking place in Ireland and which were not on Plan of Campaign estates at all. You cannot both have your cake and eat it; and if the Irish landlords have been evicting at this enormous rate since 1879 you have a problem to deal with very different from the problem in regard to the Plan of Campaign estates. I was astounded to hear the right hon. Gentleman putting us off on this branch of the question by-stating the difficulty of getting trustworthy information on this aspect of the question. It is difficult, no doubt, and we do not ask exact particulars and statistics; but the right hon. Gentleman can surely give us some information as to the derelict farms in Ireland, and those which are not derelicts, but from which tenants have been evicted and new tenants have taken their places. Of the 2,700 farms mentioned by the Mathew Commission I know that no fewer than 1,298 have already been occupied by other tenants. Evicted farms are being taken every day, and I know that process has gone on within the last few months with even greater rapidity; and what is £100,000 in the face of such a difficulty? It appears to me, therefore, that the elaborate scheme of the right hon. Gentleman fails, because it has not taken into account the main difficulty with which he has to deal. I agree that if this were a Plan of Campaign difficulty alone, though the ethical and moral questions of the gravest magnitude would come before this House, the financial problem would be insignificant. But if you go beyond the Plan of Campaign, and take into consideration all the farms in Ireland without a tenant, or those in which a tenant has come into occupation since 1879, you are face to face with a question where charity may have more to do with our decision than mere ethical or moral considerations, but undoubtedly you have a financial problem of vast magnitude of which the Government seem to me not to have the slightest idea. With every desire to see this great question settled, I cannot flatter myself or the Government that it is one which will not lead to great discussion and to the necessary raising of problems of the most profound difficulty. I was going into some of the questions that must be raised, and which I will raise on the Second Reading, with regard to the consequences to Irish society of making it plain that persons may indulge in war and have their expenses always paid by their opponents. I should not touch that theme if I believed that the past history of Ireland was never going to repeat itself in the future, or if I thought that we had turned down once for ever that terrible page of agrarian agitation which has been open now for about 15 years, or at least in its most aggravated forms since 1879. But no such hope is held out to us by those in whose hands rests the decision of the question. They tell us in plain terms that when it suits them they will use the old methods for the old objects; and in face of declarations of that kind I confess that this House will be obliged to pause before it uses public funds and public legislation for the purpose of succouring the wounded soldiers in this species of civil war. Hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway of both sections in which they are divided have told us over and over again that the Paris fund existed for the very purpose of dealing with those Plan of Campaign tenants. If it exists for that purpose, why then the £100,000 we are asked to vote is to be voted as an addition to the Paris fund. It is a contribution from the House, and nothing else, to the war expenses of a particular section and of a particular party. If that section or party would hold out to us any hope that we have seen au end of these things, and that we need never look for a repetition of it in future, I, for one, would not look too closely either into the amount of money which we are asked to vote or into the merits of those who are to receive it. But if it is—as I fear it is—otherwise, we shall be forced, whether we like it or not, before this Bill becomes law to consider how far we are really contributing to the future peace and social order in Ireland by voting this large subvention in aid of a war which only waits apparently for a favourable moment again to revive.
said, all sections of the Irish Party had listened to the discussion with feelings of great anxiety. There was no section of the Representatives of Ireland in that House who had not a burning interest in the subject introduced by the right hon. Gentleman. Speaking for those with whom he co-operated, he must at this early stage express his extreme disappointment at the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. So far from in any degree settling the question, it would disburb Irish society, and particu- larly in those places to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred. He made bold to say that the proposal just developed to the House was one which must inevitably lead to disorder, contention, and strife, and to an agitation worse than anything which had yet been seen in Ireland. Hon. Members might say that those words were spoken in threat —that he was holding out a threat. Well, Irish Members were pretty well accustomed to that. He had taken a prominent part in agitation in Ireland, but nobody could say that he had used his position for the purpose of fomenting disorder or to create strife between Parties. What was the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman? He left entirely untouched the entire turning point of the evicted tenants' question. With regard to the derelict farms, they had a proposal for arbitration, but that was just the direction in which arbitration was scarcely necessary. A little accommodation and arrangement of the clause for the purchase of land would enable those two parties to come together. The real difficulty and crucial point in the Irish case was the number of farms occupied throughout the country from which others had been evicted. The proposal made was a mere tinkering with the question, and would give additional incentive to crime and disorder so long as the question of the farms taken since eviction was not touched. The Irish Members made a proposal some time ago on this subject, and the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues voted in favour of the Bill. They had come fresh from their declarations at the General Election. The Bill contained a proposal dealing with these farms taken after eviction, and the only objection—the only reservation—made with regard to those cases was made by the Secretary for Scotland, who said—
"The Purchase Bill has not fulfilled its main object of pacifying Ireland, which would never be done unless justice was shown to the 5,000 or 15,000 evicted men."
The then proposal was that the occupation of farms by those planters should be under the consideration of the tribunal; that they should be taken compulsorily. That was the Bill that the right hon. Gentleman supported, but now the mere fact that a man was in possession, by whatever title—whether his occupation was bonâ fide or not, whether he was a bogus tenant or not, although there might be collusion between him and the landlord—however unsubstantial his occupation might be, he had merely to raise the question of occupancy, and there was no longer any possibility of the man who was evicted from the holding having any hope of getting back. What did it point to? It said plainly to the evicted tenant —If you do not make the situation uncomfortable for the man who has the farm, if you and your hundreds do not drive them out. if public opinion is not strong enough, and your Organisations sufficiently powerful to expel him from the farms, there is no hope for you. That was the message of the Bill, and he implored the right hon. Gentleman, if he wished to see the question satisfactorily settled, to seriously reconsider the proposal he had made to the House. As one who knew Ireland better than the right hon. Gentleman, he would tell him that the Bill, so far from settling the question, would raise contention between men who had hitherto acted together in Ireland, and even among the evicted tenants themselves, and was likely to cause bad blood and friction between them. From the observations he had heard that night, it would appear as if there was a sincere desire to close the controversy. If so, why did not the House approach it in that spirit and with that desire? The arbitrators were to be appointed to merely settle cases of holdings which were vacant. But they were the least important; they would give the least trouble. When they were vacant, what was wanted was a Board of Arbitrators. Why should the man who had been evicted not have the same right as the man who had been evicted and whose farm was vacant? These were the cases which disturbed the entire social life of Ireland. The evicted tenant who saw that his farm was not profitable in the hands of the landlord was not excited about it. He believed that the time would come when the landlord would be glad to have him back. The man they should be most desirous of preserving from crime was the man whose farm had been taken and was worked before his eyes by one who was serving the interests of a political Organisation and whose tenancy was not real. There were cases of the kind which were perfectly notorious. Let them suppose that on a certain estate there were ten farms— seven of which had been taken after eviction by colourable tenants, and three were vacant. The Board of Arbitrators had the power of dealing with the last-mentioned, but the remaining seven were left untouched. The sham tenant could bar the whole proceeding. He was there for the purpose of supporting and maintaining the landlord's side of the controversy. What he wished to point out was that so far from diminishing the tendency to take farms in violation of the settled principles of the people, and the agreement of their combinations, the Bill actually held out an inducement to the land grabbers to occupy every evicted farm in Ireland they could get. Where the entire thing stopped short was, that it seemed to have been devised with regard to a few particular farms in Ireland, and no doubt it would give some section in the House an opportunity of redeeming pledges to certain districts in Ireland, but it was not a proposal which would settle the question. When they suggested that compulsory powers should be extended to farms which had been taken, they made no provision for compensating the tenant in possession, and that was the sole objection taken to the scheme by the right hon. Gentleman and his Party. There would be some reason in the right hon. Gentleman's proposal if he had introduced the question of compensating those men—if he gave the Board of Arbitrators power to consider all those tenancies, and, where they were bonâ fide, give compensation. But the right hon. Gentleman had not touched the fringe of the question, and it would have been better for the Government and for the people of Ireland if he had never made the proposal that night, for when it was read on the morrow, and when it was seen that the man who had taken an evicted farm was the man for whom the law had special regard beyond the evicted tenant—that his position was regarded as sacred under the Bill, that no portion of the measure was to be offered to the man who had felt the effect of the change, there would be intense disappointment in Ireland. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to keep Ireland in its present condition of peace he would endeavour to apply his Bill to all classes of evicted tenants, at least in the same degree. There was no intention or wish to be unreasonable in this matter, but they would be unworthy of claiming kinship with their unfortunate people if they did not now take their part. His language was that of warning, and he told the right hon. Gentleman that so far from settling the question in any appreciable degree, his proposal, if persisted in, would, if possible, render worse the condition of the evicted tenants in Ireland, and the condition of that country less peaceful than it had hitherto been.
* said, he did not think it would be fair, and it certainly would not be safe, to take any pronounced stand upon this Bill at the present stage. That was one thing he was not going to do, but another was that he would not embarrass the right hon. Gentleman in any way in his attempt to deal with and settle this question, nor did he intend to express any adverse opinion with regard to the measure which the right hon. Gentleman had introduced. The right hon. Gentleman had done him the honour of quoting certain observations of his which had appeared in an article he had written, published in one of the magazines; and he now avowed that he should be prepared to sacrifice many of the views he held if he could see that by so doing he was conducing to a fair and honourable solution of this vexed question. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that nothing he had previously said upon this subject would prevent him from supporting such portions of this Bill as he found himself conscientiously able to support. He, however, did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had given the House the information he might have done which would have guided them in this matter. There were perhaps a few hon. Members who had studied this subject with some care, and who knew what it meant, and what it involved, but the great majority of hon. Members had no conception of the extent of the evil to be met. The right hon. Gentleman had treated the question that night too much as though it applied only to the Plan of Campaign tenants. The facts of the case were these. There were 980 Plan of Campaign tenants to be dealt with, but 2,765 applications for reinstatement had been sent in to the Mathew Commission. That, however, was not all, because he had ascertained that since the right hon. Gentleman had taken office 836 tenants had been evicted from their holdings in Ireland, making a total of nearly 4,000 evicted tenants.
:That is not nearly all.
* fully admitted that the numbers he had given were not complete, but in such a case what use would £100,000 be in view of the problem that had to be solved? In plain terms such a sum "would not look at it." What did the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman amount to? As he understood the first part of that proposal, it was to the effect that the old tenants might be put back by the arbitrators upon certain conditions and terms, but that in case of the landlord objecting to their being so replaced—and what landlord would not object—why should he not? He had been defrauded by his tenants. Then the tenants would be forced to purchase. The right hon. Gentleman had taken much credit to himself for proposing to release the landlord in such cases from providing the guarantee deposit. He had always thought it very hard upon the landlord that he should have been forced to provide the deposit for the benefit of the tenant who had defrauded him. The Chief Secretary said that, taking the whole period from the Ashbourne Act down to now, the guarantee deposit had only been drawn upon to the extent of £2,000, and that that was most satisfactory. But they must remember that these were solvent tenants; and did the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell him it was the same thing to compare these solvent tenants, who had approved security behind them, with those evicted tenants who had not a farthing, and that taking the evicted tenants the security would exist if they removed the guarantee deposit? No one could maintain that and those hon. Gentlemen behind the Chief Secretary, who quarrelled with the security of the tenants under the Ashbourne Act, could not be comfortable in their minds when they looked forward to these bankrupt tenants being forced on the State as purchasers. He said this was a serious position for the right hon. Gentleman to get into. Let them look at the condition of these tenants, and he had seen hundreds of them in their sad extremity. In the first place, the land was waste and derelict in a great number of cases; the houses had been thrown down or gone to decay, and were probably non-existent; the people had been living on doles served out to them; and he asked the House were these people to be forced on the State as purchasers under this arrangement? Where was the security for the State? Was it in the land that was derelict or in the people who were bankrupt? He did not believe it possible to carry out this transaction, and he should look with anxiety for the Bill to see how it could be done with safety for the State. He asked the same question as was asked by the hon. Member for the Harbour Division (Mr. Harrington), was this Bill likely to settle the problem? No, it would not. He was of opinion that if they could not settle it wholly they had better not attempt to settle it at all. This was not a case where half a loaf was better than no bread, and he would tell the House why. There were admittedly 1,500 new tenants created on the land, and it was also admitted the Chief Secretary could not evict these 1,500 new tenants. [ Cries of "Why?"] The idea of stopping eviction by carrying out fresh evictions! He held it was utterly impossible for any Government to propose to evict 1,500 well-to-do tenants in order to put 1,500 bankrupt men in their places. If they left these men there, the 1,500 men in the houses and the 1,500 out of the houses, he wanted to know what would be the condition of affairs? The difficulty arose from the Government trying to do an impossible thing. Take the 1,500 tenants who were not to be removed unless with their own consent, and after the remainder had been reinstated in their holdings what was likely to be the fate of the 1,500 new tenants—would their lives be likely to be happy? He saw the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) opposite. What had the hon. Gentleman done in the past with regard to this—what was he doing every day? Was not the hon. Gentleman calling upon the people to boycott the land-grabber, and how was he to sit quietly by and allow these 1,500 new tenants to remain in possession and the old tenants to remain out? What settlement was that? He said that was an absolutely impossible position of affairs to bring about, and it would be worse than things were now. Everyone of them would be exposed to boycotting and to crime of every kind, and he did not think he could ever bring himself to consent to a thing that would run such a risk as that. He said that was what they would be doing, and he said so after the speeches of the hon. Member for Mayo, not in the forgotten past but no later than last week. Now he came to the question of the funds. £100,000 he had said would not look at the solution of this difficulty from a financial standpoint, but of all the monstrous proposals ever made the proposal to arrest the Church Fund for a purpose like this was the worst and he did not think it had been equalled. He heard the Debate on the Irish Church question a very long time ago; he heard it from the Gallery of the House, and he remembered the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian saying that the surplus ought to be devoted to the work of charity and for the relief of idiots and lunatics. He wondered whether it was under that principle the Chief Secretary thought of the Church Surplus Fund. In the last Parliament he remembered the late Chief Secretary for Ireland proposed to take £100,000 of that fund for the endowment of sectarian education in Ireland. He could remember he gave the right hon. Gentleman considerable trouble about it, and had to keep the House sitting two mornings until 5 o'clock—[ Cries of "Obstruction!"] Yes, it was obstruction, but it was justifiable obstruction and was obstruction of his own Party, and if the Irish Unionist Members would not consent to allow the Irish Church surplus to be used for sectarian education, they would certainly fight most strongly against its being used for the reward of roguery, robbery, and wrong-doing. He said that as these evictions had been carried out under the protection of British soldiers, British bayonets, and British law, Great Britain should take the responsibility and the fund should come from British sources. Let the Government go with their demand to the British taxpayer, and see what he had to say to it. It was proposed in the Bill to advance £50, at least there was to be an advance up to the extent of £50 to each tenant, at the pleasure of the arbitrator, to rebuild the houses. Here was a derelict farm, an ex-tenant who was a pauper, a house in ruins, and not one farthing to purchase stock or anything else for the farm, and the Chief Secretary proposed these three gentlemen—he hoped they would not be like Mr. Justice Mathew's Commission — should have power of giving £50 to these poor tenants to rebuild the house, re-cultivate the land and stock the farm. He therefore said they might at once get rid of the idea of £100,000, which would not look at it, and they must raise their ideas very considerably if they wished to settle the evicted tenants question. The next question he asked was, where was this to stop? They were to begin on the 1st May, 1879, which was what he called the Laud League period. He admitted the right hon. Gentleman was right in beginning there, for he had the 13th section of the Land Act to support him, but beginning there, where was the right hon. Gentleman going to stop? He could understand it if the right hon. Gentleman proposed now to come down and abolish the process of ejectment for rent altogether; but he asked— and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reply before the close of the Debate—where he intended this policy to stop, because evictions were going on every day? These tenants, who were to be treated in this way, who were to get compensation, were men in the main who resisted the law and conspired to defraud their landlords. He put opposite them the evictions going on every day of men who were unfortunate in the business of agriculture, who could not make both ends meet, who could not pay their rent and went out of their farms without resistance to the law, and who took their chance in a bleak world. They were going to reward those who broke the law, and they were going to allow those who were peaceable to be turned out to starve. He desired to say, and it was the last thing he had to say, that he saw enormous difficulty in the way, and that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, by not grappling with the whole question and endeavouring to settle it as a whole, ran an enormous risk of making the question worse than it was at the present moment. He had spoken now on the faith of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but when the Bill was printed he should be quite prepared to give it the consideration it deserved, apart from the one point respecting the Church surplus.
:I desire to make some observations on the Bill introduced by the Chief Secretary, particularly in view of one speech which has come from those Benches, and also because I have for a long time been connected with the cause of the evicted tenants in Ireland, and therefore I think I should not allow any further time to elapse without saying a few words. I have no intention of doing what I think is a very inconvenient thing to do in this House, and that is to attempt to discuss a measure the full details of which are not before us; but, in my humble judgment, the spectacle which has been presented to this House for the last hour of the Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin (Mr. Harrington) uniting with the Member for South Tyrone (Mr. T. W. Russell) in mangling—
:No, no!
:I use the expression in no offensive sense; but I say the spectacle of the Member for the Harbour Division uniting with the Member for South Tyrone in mangling and trying to blacken this Bill almost before it has had time to see the light of day, will I think, on the whole, have the effect of convincing the evicted tenants of Ireland that the Bill contains valuable provisions. That is my opinion, and therefore I shall, for the present, reserve an opinion as to certain details. But I do say, so far as I have been able to gather from the extremely clear statement of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that the Bill is an extremely valuable Bill. I do not intend to occupy the time of the House at any very great extent in dealing with the speeches to which we have just listened; but there are some points which have been raised in the course of the discussion to which I think I ought to advert. First of all, I will address myself to the attitude adopted towards this Bill by the Leader of the Opposition and to the attitude adopted towards it by the Member for South Tyrone. The Leader of the Opposition used language with reference to this Bill which was certainly intended to avoid contention, and so far as was possible he avoided contentious matters. I am bound to say that the excellent rule which he laid down at the opening of his observations apparently had no effect on his friend and ally the Member for South Tyrone, for there was not a single point of an angry or contentious character which the Member for South Tyrone did not raise in his usual peculiarly acrimonious manner. I will first allude to a few points which were put by the hon. Member for South Tyrone. The hon. Member assumed that in all cases the landlord would object to receive back the old tenants, and he put his case in this way. He said— "Why should a landlord who has got rid of a bankrupt tenant not desire to keep him out of the holding, and all the more in the case where he was a planter in the holding? Because, "he said, "in these 1,500 cases where there are new tenants on the holdings it will stand to reason that the landlord, having got rid of a bankrupt tenant, will prefer to keep the solvent tenant."
:My observation could not have applied to the 1,500 tenants. They only applied to cases where the land is derelict.
:I beg the hon. Member's pardon, but he did use the language which I have quoted, for I took down his words at the time. He did ask why should a landlord get rid of 1,500 solvent tenants in order to get back 1,500 insolvent tenants? These are the very words he used. Allow me to tell the hon. Member that in my experience in Ireland—and I think it is at least as wide as that of the hon. Member, or of the hon. Member for the Harbour Division— the landlords who have got planters upon their farms are not all in love with them. I have come across innumerable instances where the planters are paying no rent, or else paying less than half of what the old tenant was paying; and I am convinced, dealing for a moment with this question of 1,500 planters, that a large number of them are bogus tenants, are not real tenants, are not paying a fair rent to the landlord, and are simply kept on these farms for the purpose of combating the agitation in Ireland. Now I turn for a moment to the observations of the hon. Member for South Tyrone. He said that of course the landlord would refuse to take back tenants who had attempted to defraud him in the past. Is there any ground for that supposition? I say the whole history of the past 10 years proves quite the contrary. Take one for example, the case of the Ponsonby Estate, one of the cases where probably there has been the largest clearance in the whole of Ireland. It is a well known fact that Mr. Ponsonby was anxious to take back his tenants, and only for the interference of the hon. Member for South Hunts (Mr. Smith-Barry) the whole transaction would have been closed long ago. [ Cries of " No, no! "] That is a perfectly notorious fact. In view of this fact, and I myself have taken part in many transactions of this character, I say there is not the smallest shadow of foundation for the statement of the hon. Member. The hon. Member makes the assumption throughout the whole of his speech that the landlords will regard the men who went into those evictions as men who attempted to defraud them. These were combinations for the sake of getting a reduction of rent, and if the hon. Member assumes that every combination in Ireland having for its object the reduction of rents was an attempt to defraud, then I say he condemns the entire late Tory Administration as defrauders. I take an entirely different view of this case. I say that in the case of a number of landlords in Ireland who have derelict farms on their hands that the landlords would gladly avail themselves of the opportunity of taking back the old tenants who would pay their rents. I shall deal briefly with what this Bill will do for the Irish tenants. The evicted tenants in Ireland are divided into two classes. First, there are farms which are still derelict or in the occupation of the landlord or anyone acting on his behalf. In those cases it is admitted by all critics who profess to have an interest in restoring those tenants to those holdings that this Bill will be fairly satisfactory. Therefore, I may say that the criticisms which have come from those who spoke on behalf of the evicted tenants are practically confined to the second portion of the Bill, which deals with tenants whose holdings have been let to new tenants. I take first this fact, that I do not consider that the arbitrators shall be actually debarred from inquiring as to whether a man actually living in the house is legally in possession or not, and I do not think that those who are simply caretakers to the landlords, as many of those alleged tenants are, would be entitled to claim possession. That is evidently a point of detail for future consideration. Take the case of holdings which are bonâ fide in the possession of a new tenant. These are admitted to be the smaller number of the holdings with which this Bill will deal. I believe from the very wide experience of this whole business that in the case of a great majority of those new tenants, who are known by the name of planters, they would avail themselves of the provisions which are proposed in this Bill, giving them compensation and allowing them to give up those holdings. I believe, as regards a good many of those new tenants, they are not making a profit out of their holdings, and I believe they are not paying their rents regularly, that the landlords are in many instances anxious to get rid of them, and that they would be ready to go if they got reasonable compensation. Many of these men are notoriously men without any actual knowledge of farming at all, and who were brought there for the purpose of fighting the agitation. I remember a saying, almost classical now, of the agent of Lord Lansdowne when he went to Ulster to try and get planters for the Luggacurren Estates. He came back without his planters, and what did he say? He said —
"When I went to Ulster I found plenty of pluck and plenty of money, and I found that the men who had pluck had no money, and the men who had money had no pluck."
The men who went on those farms as planters had nothing to lose, and everything to gain, and therefore were a very unsatisfactory class for a landlord to have. Therefore, I hold that that portion of the problem is not at all such a large one as has been attempted to be made out, but is one which, to a very large extent, could be settled by this Bill in a friendly way. I now come to the observations of the Leader of the Opposition. He is the man in this House who is to say whether there is to be peace in this matter or not, on his head rests the real responsibility; and I listened with a degree of pleasure and some hope to the reception which he gave to this Bill. He put this point, and I would ask his attention to it. He asked what is to be the fate of these planters if they are induced to give up the holdings of which they are now in possession. Said the right hon. Gentleman—
"They will be held up to the odium and hatred of their neighbours, and it will be incumbent on the Government to protect them."
Of course, it is incumbent on the Government to protect them. The right lion. Gentleman the Chief Secretary has exposed himself to some criticism in Ireland for the care he has taken in the protection of these men. I would put this to the Leader of the Opposition. What is to be the fate of these planters if nothing is done to settle this question? Is it only because they refuse to fall in with the present arrangements that they will be held up to the odium of their neighbours? He himself blames us for condemning land-grabbing. In doing so we are giving voice to the deep-rooted sentiments of the Irish people. If we did not do so probably much more violent means would be resorted to for the purpose of putting an end to land-grabbing, and I repeat that by condemning land-grabbing in this House and on platforms in Ireland we are giving voice to sentiments which no Coercion Act can ever eradicate from the masses of the Irish people, and in doing so we are imposing upon them an amount of patience and restraint which he and other statesmen have been unable to impose. Supposing there is no proposition made by the Executive Government in Ireland for dealing with these cases of the planters, I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is his proposal for the future of Ireland? He knows Ireland very well and fought very hard there, and fought with a good deal of courage. [An hon. MEMBER: And success.] That remains to be seen; we think we have had some success also, but I shall not enter into that question at present. But supposing the present Administration was thrown out of Office, and that this Bill was not passed, does the right hon. Gentleman imagine for a moment that even if Members like myself lost our seats in Parliament this question will not cross his path, or the path of any other Minister who is responsible for the Government of Ireland? I say it will be there, and must be faced and must be dealt with by any Minister responsible for public order in Ireland. I say that, in my opinion, there is no force and no weight in the objection which the right hon. Gentleman has made—namely, that this Bill might have a tendency to hold up to the odium of their neighbours planters in Ireland who would not leave their holdings. On the contrary, it affords a means to the planters, many of whom are only too anxious to get away, if they can only do so without loss of money, to give up the holdings to the old occupants. I turn for a moment to the speech of the hon. Member for the Harbour Division. He condemns this Bill, and says it will leave the condition of Ireland worse than it has been in the past. What does the hon. Gentleman propose to do for those evicted tenants?
:I will tell the hon. Gentleman, if he will allow me. I simply advise the tenants to follow the former plan of the hon. Gentleman, to get the tenants to hold together, and not to take advantage of this Bill until they see there is a settlement for them all. That is the policy which the hon. Gentleman followed when I was cooperating with him in Ireland.
:I know a good deal about the condition of the evicted tenants in Ireland. I do not think there is any man in this House who has been so closely identified with them for several years past as I have been. I know there are 1,500 families who, but for the relief given from month to month by a committee of which I am secretary, would be long ago in the workhouses of Ireland. I speak for these families, and I say were it not for our Party and for the exertions we have made these men would not now be even in a position to claim the redemption of their holdings. I say the man who renders difficult the passing of this Bill, or throws any obstacle in its way, will be taking upon his head a very heavy responsibility. Unquestionably, in my judgment, this Bill, if it were passed in its present shape—and we all recognise that if it is to be passed through this House and through the House of Lords there must be more give and take, and, of course, if I were to draft an Evicted Tenants Bill I would draft it on different lines; but we cannot expect that a Minister of the Government will come down to this House with a Bill such as a Leader of the Plan of Campaign would draft—but I say that in my judgment this Bill, if it were passed, would support at least three-fourths or four-fifths of the evicted tenants of Ireland, and put them back in their homes. It would support the most difficult and most distressing cases. There may be a fringe that it would not touch, and I repeat, knowing as I do know the terrible conditions of these people, and the desperate necessities which surround the future in Ireland if they are left in their present unsettled state, that the man who would take upon himself the responsibility of getting this Bill rejected will take upon his head an enormous responsibility, because he will have to take upon his shoulders the duty of supporting 2,000 or 3,000 families, who, by means of this Bill, would be restored to their homes. According to the speeches of the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for South Tyrone this Bill will not settle the question. Well, let them draft a Bill that will settle the question. If they do I will admit they have achieved a task which has not yet been accomplished by any man that ever sat in this House, and that they are the greatest statesmen of the century. It is no reproach to any statesman or to the modern Liberal Party that they are unable by a single Bill to settle all the accumulated evils of all the agrarian wars in Ireland for two and a half centuries past. I believe in my heart it is beyond the power of this House ever to settle the Irish Land Question finally. You can only work in this House from hand to mouth. You can only pass Bills which will meet the emergency of the moment, or settle a question for a year or two. Bill after Bill has been passed by Tory Government and by Liberal Government, and yet the Irish land problem remains unsolved. This Bill, no doubt, will not settle the whole questions. It will not settle in their homes the tenants who are to be evicted next year, who are now under notice of eviction; it will not deal with the 40,000 tenants who have been cut out from the benefits of the Land Acts by the eviction-made-easy clause, passed by the Leader of the present Opposition in 1887. It will not produce an arcadia in Ireland, nor bring on the millennium. But I will tell you what it will do. It will return to their homes, in my humble judgment, 2,000 or 3,000 families in Ireland who are at this moment a source of embarrassment and danger and difficulty to the Government of the country. It will, in my judgment, if it is passed, restore to their homes a number of families, who are at present in despair and threatened with starvation, and who have been evicted, whether you think rightly or wrongly—in the opinion of their neighbours, and that is the important point after all—have been evicted, in the opinion of their countrymen and neighbours, unjustly. I appeal most solemnly to the House and to gentlemen who propose to reject this Bill to remember what the effect has been in Ireland of a year and a-half of fair treatment, and of the effect of hope in the present regime. It has been made a matter of reproach to the Government, not lately I will say, by the Leader of the Opposition, but by some Conservative Members, that the present Government is governing Ireland by hope. After all, is not hope a better thing to govern the country with than Coercion and police? I appeal to this House, since the effects on Ireland has been so encouraging and so delightful, I would say to every section of the House of the Administration of the Chief Secretary during the last 18 months, that you will not deny him these means, which he asks. For my part I will say this, that as far as I can understand it, and speaking for the Irish people, that this Bill, even if it do not completely and finally settle the Irish Land Question, it will be, if it is passed, a most potent and powerful instrument in the hands of the Executive to maintain that peace and quiet which have been so prevalent of late in Ireland.
said, that he felt that it would not be prudent at that early time to express a final judgment on the proposals of the Chief Secretary, but speaking generally, he recognised, as every Member of the House must recognise, that the right hon. Gentleman had made a sincere attempt at a settlement. He also hoped that it would also prove a practical attempt. Whilst it was gratifying to find that the object of the Bill had such wide sympathy in the House—he could not but feel that its success would depend not a little on the three men chosen to be the arbitrators, and still more on the spirit in which the proposals were received by the landlords in Ireland and by the tenants. If the friends of the landlords did not impress on them the desirability of being reasonable, and if the friends of the tenants did not impress on them the desirability of helping as far as they could, all attempts to settle the difficulty would be vain, and foolish, and futile. But he felt quite certain, however, that if those who had influence with the landlords or the tenants would use their best efforts to bring the two classes together, the House might look with hope to the operations of the Bill. They might say this with respect to the whole reception of the Bill: the success of the measure would altogether depend on whether they had reasonable or unreasonable conduct in Ireland. He hoped, therefore, that all who had influence in the matter would try to ensure that the conduct should be reasonable, and if that were done the country might look with hope to the results of this measure, and might trust to its effecting a large settlement of the present difficulties. Surely, everyone must admit at the outset that there was considerable motive to induce them to do their best in the matter. What was the situation? There was a ragged cloud of witnesses in Ireland betokening the existence of an evil spirit, approaching to civil war in the past, and the continued existence of which constituted a threat of a renewal of civil war in the future. If they wished to effect a permanent and peaceful settlement they must do their best to abate the feeling of illtreatment in the past. Such a course would be desirable in the interest of Ireland and in the interest of all Parties; and it was certainly most desirable in the interest of those who thought that there might be a change of Administration in the near future that the question should be settled, for, in whatever difficulties this band of dispossessed tenants might involve the present Government, any future Government, with a different political complexion, would be placed in infinitely worse difficulties. That was a motive, surely, that should be sufficient to make them disposed to enter into a discussion of this problem without desiring to renew the old forces of disorder, or aggravate or rekindle fires that might be for the moment dormant. It had been said, indeed, that the problem was much larger in extent than the Chief Secretary had said. That might be very likely true, but he was inclined to think that a disposition to curtail the dimensions of the problem could be developed so as to make it very much more reduced than it seemed. After all a landlord did not like to have derelict laud on his hands, and although the present year was a very good one in Ireland no doubt many Irish landlords found it extremely unprofitable to work their own laud. I would prefer to have some tenants and get some rents. With regard to the planters, he could not say whether they would insist upon their rights to remain upon their holdings or not; but he entirely concurred in the view of the Chief Secretary, that it was impossible to dispossess them against their will. He entirely agreed with the proposition that it was impossible to dispose, without their assent, of those who cultivated farms as planters, and he did not think that the Legislature, however well inclined it might be towards the evicted tenant, would ever listen to a suggestion of that kind. He, therefore, deprecated any violent expulsion of new tenants in order to put back old tenants. It was quite possible, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Mayo had said, that many of these planters would be well pleased, on receiving compensation, to relinquish their holdings. But even if they insisted upon remaining, and were exposed to all the odium of which they were warned, if not threatened, by the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin (Mr. Harrington) the situation would be much changed by the planters who were willing to go giving up their farms. Be that as it might, he thought the Bill, if it became law, would do much to restore agrarian peace in Ireland. The whole working out of the scheme depended on the spirit in which it would be taken up by those who had influence in Ireland. The arbitrators would have to consider whether the tenant on one side or the landlord on the other was unreasonable. The success of the scheme depended on whether there was reasonable or unreasonable conduct in Ireland, and reasonable or unreasonable conduct on the part of those who were able to influence public conduct in Ireland; but he did hope that on both sides the matter would be treated in a conciliatory and reasonable spirit, and that those who possessed influence would try and make that spirit prevail.
said, he would not have risen at all were it not for the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo. That hon. Member had said that great responsibility would rest upon the head of any person who did anything to interfere with the passage of the Bill. He agreed with the hon. Member, but he should add that he thought that his speech had contributed more heat to the question than anything else which had taken place during the Debate. The hon. Member for East .Mayo had simply made an attack on the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin. He had said that that hon. Member was uniting with the hon. Member for South Tyrone in attempting to wreck the Bill. The hon. Member knew perfectly well when using that unworthy sneer that the hon. Member for the Harbour Division had given quite as much time, and risked quite as much, and suffered quite as much in the interests of the evicted tenants as the hon. Member for East Mayo. The hon. Member had also spoken in sneering tones of those who "pretended" to be the friends of Ireland. He did not know whether the hon. Member referred to him and those who were associated with him, but if so he could only say that at the time when the Member for East Mayo required people to show their friendship for the evicted tenants by standing by his side in many a struggle and following him to prison, it was men like the hon. Member for the Harbour Division to whom he looked, and not to many of those newer friends who sat around him that day. The hon. Member spoke about uniting with the hon. Member for South Tyrone, but he knew perfectly well that the hon. Member for South Tyrone approached the discussion of the measure from quite a. different point of view. The hon. Member for South Tyrone showed clearly in his speech that he did not desire to see the question settled at all. He posed as the friend of the tenant since his constituents had urged upon him the question of laud in Ireland. But he was not entitled to speak on behalf of the tenants or any considerable section of people interested in this Bill in Ireland and they knew perfectly well that in making his speech the hon. Member for South Tyrone did so for the purpose of throwing obstacles in the way of any settlement of the question at all. Therefore, the suggestion of union between the hon. Member for South Tyrone and the hon. Member for the Harbour Division was one which should not have been uttered. He sympathised to a great extent with the right hon. Gentleman in having to deal with this matter at all; but he asked, how could they be anything but disappointed at his action when they remembered that he supported the Bill which dealt almost principally with the question of planters, and now absolutely refused to touch the question? It was because he thought the best way of dealing with the Chief Secretary was to speak plainly that he told him it was his conviction that the difficulty of the evicted tenants' question was in the fact of these farms being taken. No doubt it would be an excellent thing to reinstate people in farms now vacant, but if people were put into every derelict farm tomorrow there would still remain tremendous difficulty if the planters were not dealt with. Did the right hon. Gentleman really think that peace and order would be restored to neighbourhoods in which one tenant was reinstated while another tenant at the other side of the ditch or across the road was left out of his farm because it was occupied by a planter from the North of Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman would not settle the question. On the contrary, he believed the Chief Secretary would by this Bill raise an agitation against land grabbing — against the practice of taking farms from which people had been evicted — which would be of a very dangerous character. The feelings of the man who saw his farm taken, his children on the roadside, and a stranger under his roof would be very titter. The greatest check upon outrages during the last few years had been the belief that when the Government came into power the question would be dealt with, the new tenants got rid of by compensation, and the old ones restored. It was not because the people were less bitter that they were now quiet; it was because men like the hon. Member for Mayo had encouraged the hope that land grabbing and the planters would be dealt with on the lines of Mr. O'Kelly's Bill, and that all the evicted without exception would be restored to their homes. But when the proposals of the Bill became known in Ireland, there would be great disappointment. To- morrow the people whose farms had been taken and occupied would say, "The Government will do nothing for us." What would be the effect? It would bring despair and dismay to the hearts of all these people who had seen their land grabbed. What would they say? Why, "Our neighbours who were evicted but whose lands were not grabbed have been put back, but the Government will do nothing for us." He trusted that these people in their despair would not take the law into their own hands; but if he were an Irish tenant who had seen his land grabbed, and had been encouraged by Irish Members of Parliament to believe that when a Liberal Government came into power the planters would be dispossessed, and he would get back his old home, he should be very bitter at heart indeed if he were told that nothing at all in that direction was to be done for him. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary was in a very difficult position, and he (Mr. W. Redmond) could not help expressing a certain amount of sympathy with him, but the right hon. Gentleman must know that when one in his own position deliberately walked into the Division Lobby to vote in support of a proposal by an Irish Member to deal with the planters, and put the tenants-back into their holdings, the circumstances carried great weight with the people in Ireland. He must know that it was a dangerous thing to disappoint the people of Ireland in that way. No doubt the evicted tenants tomorrow would say, "Why, he voted for Mr. O'Kelly's Bill to put us back on our farms, but now that he has the opportunity of dealing with this very subject he makes no effort to restore us." It was not that he (Mr. W. Redmond) was not anxious for some such Bill as this to become law. He was anxious Everyone who lived in Ireland must be anxious to have the evicted tenants restored and to have this matter settled but they wished to see it settled in a manner that would prove real and lasting. He trusted that pressure would be put on the Government, when the Bill was in Committee, to make it a more satisfactory measure, and he should be very much surprised if the whole of the Irish Nationalists did not join in bringing that pressure to bear. It might be said that it would be difficult to deal with men who had taken farms and settled on them, but it did not seem, to his mind, more difficult to do that than to appoint three men to say that in other cases evicted tenants should be put back. He trusted that in Committee the Bill would be amended so as to provide for the reinstatement of those evicted tenants whose land had been grabbed.
Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
said, there was no one who had a knowledge of Ireland who did not commiserate with the right hon. Gentleman in the varied troubles and difficulties he had to face. Probably not the least of the present troubles with which he had to contend was the Bill he had introduced to-night. The right hon. Gentleman's position after hearing the speeches of the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin, the hon. Member for East Clare, and the hon. Member for East Mayo, reminded him (Mr. Dane) very forcibly of an expression in somewhat common use in portions of Ireland—namely, "He is between the Devil and the deep sea," though in this case it would be more correct to say that the right hon. Gentleman was between several devils and the deep sea. But whilst he commiserated with the right hon. Gentleman and shared with him to some extent the sympathy he had expressed for the evicted tenants in Ireland, he was bound to say he did not go as far as the right hon. Gentleman in that direction. He had no sympathy for the evicted tenants on the Campaign estates. He could have no sympathy with tenants who, being well able to pay their rents, allowed themselves to be led away by agrarian agitators, who made their livelihood out of the agitation. Beyond all doubt, on those estates the tenants were not only well-to-do, but perfectly capable of paying their rents if they had only acted up to the standard of honest men. One of the 17 Campaign estates was that of the nobleman who till lately had held the office of Governor General of India. That estate was situated in Queen's County. A person might travel the whole of Ireland without finding a more flourishing and contented estate than this. But the professional agitators went down to the estate and got hold of the tenantry, with the result that, so far as the Roman Catholic tenantry were concerned, they were forced into joining the Plan of Campaign. It was undoubtedly a fact that on that estate of Lord Lansdowne not a single Protestant out of a great number of Protestant tenants on it joined the Plan of Campaigu—and this was an observation which applied, if not to all tenants on Plan of Campaign estates, at all events to the vast majority of them. He found that the Report of the Mathew Commission went very fully into the affairs of the Plan of Campaign estates with which it dealt. One of those was the Lansdowne estate, and attached to the Report of the Commission, in an Appendix, was a list of the tenants and a description of their holdings. What was the fact? The very first name that he found in the Schedule of the Appendix was that of a gentleman who occupied a seat in the House—the hon. Member for South Kerry. This gentleman it seemed, holding 868 acres upon that estate at a rent of £760, allowed himself to be evicted for non-payment of one year's rent. The Members of the House daily had an opportunity of seeing this hon. Member adorning the Benches below the Gangway, and there were few men but would have thought that he was a reasonable and sensible man. Was it that the hon. Member was not able to pay his rent? Nothing of the kind, because the hon. Member had, at a meeting of the Irish National League held in Dublin, and reported in The Freeman's Journal of the 30th of March, 1887, publicly said—
"The Luggacurren evictions differed from all other evictions to this extent—that the tenants were able to pay their rent."
He said—
"It was a fight of intelligence backed up by the leaders of their race."
He had been very much struck with the gentle tones of the hon. Member for East Mayo in the House to-night—so different from the impassioned rhetoric with which he was wont to address his co-patriots when he went on the rampage in Ireland. He (Mr. Dane) should like to know what the predecessors of the 1,500 tenants who would come under the definition of evicted tenants would say when they read their Freeman's Journal to-morrow and found that the only persons who under the Bill would get fixity of tenure would be the 1,500 so-called land-grabbers? These land-grabbers had only to object to being displaced and all proceedings in favour of the evicted tenants who were squatting on the roadside would be blocked. What would these people say when they remembered that the late First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre) had declared to them that within one month of the Liberal Party coming into power they would be restored to their homesteads? If the Bill was to become law he (Mr. Dane) should like to know where was the security for the life of any one of these 1,500 tenants now in possession? When the Chief Secretary made his declaration someone on the Back Benches below the Gangway said, "That is a curious provision—they cannot touch these men"; and from behind came the solemn, dreadful words "We will boycott them." He happened to know that already the planters on the Massereene estate were most strictly boycotted, and if they were boycotted now would they be boycotted any less on the Bill becoming law? The Bill, in his opinion, was not an honest Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman and his Government honestly desired to relieve the unfortunate dupes of political agitators let them boldly bring forward a Bill to compensate them out of the Consolidated Fund, and then see what the British taxpayer would say. He objected to the Bill not only on the ground of principle, but because it sought to apply £100,000 of the Church surplus to do what? It was bad enough to plunder the Church, but it was worse than sacrilege to apply the plunder in rewarding men who had been guilty of dishonest conduct in every shape and form. The Bill would give a premium to dishonest tenants. The hon. Member for East Mayo had enlivened his speech with an anecdote about a land agent who went up to the North of Ireland to look for planters. This man said, " I met many men who had plenty of money but no pluck, and some men with plenty of pluck but no money." He (Mr. Dane) knew plenty of these so-called planters who were in possession of their farms. They were humble men, without perhaps much money, but they had always discharged their contracts honestly, and were by no means without pluck. Anyone who attempted to interfere with them would get as good as he gave. Many of the evicted tenants, on the other hand, were men who had never done an honest day's work in their lives. Were they to be preferred before the other class? Were the tenants who had always paid their rent, who had never had arrears wiped off, to have planted by their sides, with fixity of tenure, these social plague spots? If the right hon. Gentleman desired to be generous let him be so at the expense of the State, and not at that of honest men who had lived honest, prosperous lives, and had always met their contracts as they became due. Anything more ludicrous than the proposition of the Chief Secretary was never heard of. He proposed a Court of Arbitration manned by three arbitrators. They did not know who these arbitrators were to be. They did not know if the head was to be a limb of the law, or a farmer, or statistician. At all events, these tenants were to come off from the roadsides, and the Court of Arbitration was to sit upon them and settle what amount was to be paid, and then the tenants, who had been living from hand to mouth on charity doled out from the Land League offices in Dublin, were to find half the amount. Where were they to get it? Would the hon. Member for East Mayo, who appeared to him to have no means of livelihood himself—by which expression he meant—
:I rise to Order. Is this reference to my hon. Friend within the common decencies of Debate?
* :I hope the hon. Gentleman will refrain from personalities of any kind, and that he will retract that expression.
said, he would be sorry to use language that would hurt the feelings of any hon. Member. He used these words in the sense that the hon. Member had no profession, and that the only work he followed was to go round the country making political speeches. Hon. Gentlemen were very susceptible of having their feelings wounded. However, he would like to hear something practical from them as to who was to pay the half that these tenants were to be called upon to furnish. They were told that the houses on the farms would not be in good condition, and, with great generosity, the Chief Secretary was to give them £50 to put a house on the farm. Let them just picture the condition of these 1,500 evicted tenants passed back to the evicted farms without a sixpence except what they could get from hon. Members behind him, with £50 for a house, and nothing to stock or support the farm with! How long would these new tenants be in possession before they would be in arrears again? What would the tenants do when they got in there? Supposing their friends came forward and gave them half the money, and they got this £50 to put a house on the farm. How were they to pay the rent? He always liked to look at a thing reasonably and from a practical point of view. It seemed to him that nothing more ridiculous could have been propounded than the arguments of the Chief Secretary. If there was one thing more than another that he had always admired in the Chief Secretary it was the display he made of the courage of his convictions, and he congratulated him upon the courage he displayed in this matter. He gave him credit also for having strangled the Report of the Mathew Commission. Let them hope that the Commission he was about to construct would be constructed on practical principles, and that the three men he placed upon it would be sound, practical men. Let him put men on the Commission who would have the good sense to hold their tongues, and not go into Court determined to prejudge the case, thereby losing the confidence of all parties who had to go before them. He represented an agricultural constituency, and was returned there by farmers who had paid their rents honestly, and often with great difficulty, during all these bad times.
:Yes, of the tenant farmers who took advantage of the reductions brought about by the Plan of Campaign.
* :No, men who took what they got under the law of the land, and who set an example to the rest of Ireland; and if their example had been followed we should not have been discussing an Evicted Tenants Bill tonight.
said, the learned Gentleman in discussing the qualifications of the arbitrators under the Bill seemed to think that silence should be their chief qualification. He was bound to say that the hon. Member's own speech was no proof that he possessed that qualification himself. He had listened to speeches in that House during the most acute phases of the Irish Question, and he must say that he never heard one so rude, so coarse, and so offensive as that which they had just heard. The learned Gentleman spoke of the hon. Member for East Mayo as a person without the means of subsistence —an absurd and absolute and manifest falsehood. They knew of men inside and outside that House who had professions and yet had not the means of subsistence. He could not imagine any Englishman who had not allowed his mind to be prejudiced by Party feeling listening to that speech from the advocate—a scion of the Irish landlord class — without conceiving what indignity that class is capable of casting upon the Irish people.
:I did not speak as a scion or a representative of the landlord class.
:He is one, at any rate.
:I beg to say I am not.
:I think he is a member of a family connected with the ownership of land in Ireland.
:I am not.
said, at all events, the hon. Member appeared as the advocate of the landlord class in Ireland, and his speech was steeped in Party spite. When one considered how deeply the future settlement of the country was concerned with this question, and how totally the hon. Member turned his back upon the great interests involved, he asked whether this House could desire any more conclusive proof that in dealing with Irish affairs it was not safe to follow the advice of those who appeared as advocates of the landlord class? Now, these tenants evicted from 1879, who were they? They were the men who by their spirit and courage and self-sacrifice put themselves in the forefront of the land agitation. It was true that some of them would have been able to pay their rents at the moment. But was it to be contended that because a tenant had some money he was to pay any rent that the landlord chose to demand? These were the men that had wrung seven great Land Acts out of Parliament. Did Parliament pass these Acts out of mere love and affection? Did they pass these Acts of their own volition? No, they had to be urged, and driven, and compelled. The Member for West Birmingham had said that if there had not been a Land League there would never have been a Land Bill. These men were the foremost movers for land reform. The quiet men in Ulster—the peaceable, honest men—went on in the old way, obeying the counsels of timidity. The first fruit of the action of the brave men on whose behalf this Bill was introduced to-night was the Act of 1881. Until that Act was passed every one of these quiet, peaceable, timid men, represented by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Fermanagh, were subject to having their rent raised at the caprice of the landlord, and whether he paid his rent or not to be driven out of his home. What change did the Act of 1881 accomplish? It put these quiet tenants into a position of security. Then came the Arrears Act of 1882, by which, again, many of these quiet men were secured in their homes. Then came the Land Act of 1887. The Liberal Party were spoken of as though they were the only persons who had taken part in land legislation for Ireland. All that they did in 1881 was to say that the tenant might have a fair rent fixed, but in 1887 the Conservative Party declared that the judicial rent should be still further reduced, and that the final, most solemn and sacred kind of contract, a lease, should no longer avail against the fixing of a fair rent. That was not all the advantage that was got from the action of these brave men by the honest, quiet, peaceable men, who were content to look after their own interests while the agitation was going forward—the men represented in the House that night by the learned Member for North Fermanagh. He ventured to doubt whether any one of these tenants would authorise the hon. Member to come to that House and to deny to the men who had won for them these benefits the right and means to return to their homes. He affirmed that this Parliament was not in a position to refuse this act of justice to the men who asserted the claims of justice and obtained their rights. It was no reply to him to say that some of them could have paid their rent. He said that the rents were unjust. The abatements demanded by these men before eviction were abatements less than those freely granted by other landlords in the same district. These tenants were always willing to submit to arbitration. He should be astonished to hear any gentleman of the legal profession stand up in that House and say that tenants who in the midst of a violent movement were willing to submit to arbitration was not a proof that they were actuated by the spirit of justice. It was the Conservative Party who, by the Land Purchase Acts, submitted that the dual system of ownership in Ireland could not be expected to continue in Ireland, and certainly it was rather late in the day, after that great principle had been formulated by legislative enactment, to deny to the men who procured these reforms the right to return to their homes. He was not disposed upon this occasion to make a Second Reading speech. It was not easy to declare upon the Bill as a whole or upon its provisions while the Bill was not before them, and indeed he deprecated the system which had grown up of late of making a speech upon the introduction of a Bill which read as though Members had spoken with the Bill in their hands. He could only attribute the length and detail of some of the speeches they had heard to the desire of Members not so much to oppose this Bill as to oppose any and every Bill which the Government might bring in. But those speeches having been delivered something must be said by way of reply. Some gentlemen had said that the Bill was adverse and disagreeable to the landlords, and others said that if it passed it would do the tenants no real good. No one who really had the good of the evicted tenants at heart, and desired the peace and welfare of Ireland, would be discouraged by the circumstance that the Bill had been assailed from different points of view. They knew how difficult it was to get a Bill through both Houses of Parliament, but he did not think the prospect of passing this Bill into law was any the worse because it had been assailed from these different points of view. He could not but allude in the highest, terms of praise to the admirable speech that had been delivered by the right hon. Member for Bodmin that evening. The right hon. Gentleman was an Englishman and sat for an English constituency, and he was deeply impressed with the manly way in which he had approached the question. He felt sorry that the excellent example of "give and take" that had been set before hon. Members in that speech had not been observable also in the speech of the hon. Member for North Fermanagh. There were two main aspects in which the case must be specially viewed. The first was with regard to vacant farms, and the second was in relation to the farms that had been occupied since the evictions had been carried out. On those Irish estates which had acquired the name of the Campaign estates there were at the present no less than 1,350 farms which would be affected by the passing of this Bill, and already they understood such was the current and force of public opinion that of that number some 400 farms were again occupied mostly by their old tenants, which was a promising sign. There were now, therefore, some 900 vacant farms, and, in addition, 2,700 other tenants had also made application to the Commissioners, who, however, held that they had no means of judging whether the cases of these men could be fairly described as coming under the category of evicted tenants. He believed that in most cases landlords would be only too glad to allow the old tenants to return to their farms. It had been stated that if this Bill were passed the landlords would be more ready than before to admit the "land-grabber" as a tenant. That was, in his opinion, a most mistaken view to take of the effect of the Bill. He believed that if Irish landlords saw that this Bill had a chance of passing they would keep whatever number of farms they had on their hands vacant for six months rather than take an offer from any "land-grabber." In acting thus the Irish landlords would be acting directly in their own interests. They would have the opportunity of getting two years' rent paid them and the farm purchased at once if they wished to sell. Not only would every Irish landlord think twice before he threw away such a chance, but he believed the majority of them would fly at it. Nor were the advantages offered by the Bill only confined to the landlord. It offered advantages to the tenants also, and he gave it as his opinion that within one year of the passing of the Bill not a single farm, would be vacant. On the next point—namely, with regard to the farms that had again been occupied—he believed that they were tenanted for the most part by persons who would be only too willing to give up their tenancy at any time. He was disposed to think that the provision of the Bill under which the planter would be entitled to receive compensation as the Commissioners might decree was one under which the great majority of planters, even those who were genuine agriculturists, would be willing to retire from the farms. The Bill was not ideally perfect, and was not such a measure as would be passed in an Irish Parliament. It was, however, as good a Bill as was likely to pass through the British Parliament, and he thought it would pass through the House of Lords. [Mr. MACARTNEY indicated dissent.] The hon. Member for South Antrim was not as good a type of British opinion as the right hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Courtney), who had indicated that when English public opinion became familiar with the provisions of the Bill even those who were not favourably disposed towards the tenant class in Ireland would regard the proposed settlement as equitable. In view of the prospect of the passage of the Bill into law, he (Mr. Sexton) was not disposed to be so critical as to its details as he might otherwise be, especially at this first stage, and he should without hesitation, and with much gratitude, vote for the introduction of the measure.
said, the hon. Member who had just addressed the House, although he had deprecated the making of Second Reading speeches upon the introduction of Bills, had made a Second Reading speech himself. He would not follow the hon. Member into his disquisition respecting land legislation during the past 15 years. It was not material to inquire whether the evicted tenants were, as the hon. Member said, self-sacrificing men who had brought about the land legislation of Ireland, for the simple reason that the Bill was not limited to tenants who were evicted prior to 1887, when the last of the Land Acts was passed, but was meant for the tenants evicted up to the time of the passage of the measure. If Members were to inquire into the merits or the demerits of the persons who were to have the ad- vantage of the provisions of this Bill he thought a great deal might be said on the question whether the Imperial House of Commons should vote subsidies out of the public funds for the purpose of rewarding those who had admittedly taken part in a political campaign. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) was rather sanguine when he said he thought the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. A. J. Balfour) had not made a speech in opposition to the Bill. He (Mr. Carson) would remind the House that while his right hon. Friend criticised the Bill on almost every detail described by the Chief Secretary (Mr. J. Morley), he had not said that he could in any wise adopt a single one of its provisions. He (Mr. Carson) should be certainly sorry to adopt a non possumus attitude on this question. He knew enough of Ireland to say that he believed and admitted that the question of the evicted tenants, whether they were rightly or wrongly evicted, and whether they were evicted for the purpose of advancing a particular class of politics or not—that as long as it remained unsettled the question of the evicted tenants meant a great deal with reference to the peace of Ireland. He did not, however, wish it to be for a moment supposed that he thought the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Morley) had proposed a satisfactory solution. When he saw the Bill he would give it his very best consideration, and in the meantime he wished to suggest certain matters which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider before the Bill was printed. The question of the tribunal was all-important. If it could be avoided he thought Parliament ought not to be continually making new tribunals for the purpose of carrying out every Land Act that was passed. In the first place, Parliament created the Encumbered Estates Court, which was changed into the Landed Estates Court. In 1881 a new tribunal, the Land Commission, was set up. In 1885 more Commissioners were introduced for the purpose of carrying out the Purchase Act. At the present moment there were in Ireland five Land Commissioners —all now holding permanent offices and drawing salaries from the Consolidated Fund. The right hon. Gentleman now proposed to add practically another Land Court for a period of three years.
:I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I must do so in order to correct a slip of the tongue on my part. I am told by several friends that I did say three years. I meant to have said that the duration of the Commission would be two years.
said, that at all events if two Commissioners were appointed with good salaries in Ireland the very next move that would be made would be to make the offices permanent. He could not for the life of him see what was the advantage of having a temporary Commission of this kind. Why should not the new Commissioners be made a branch of the Land Commission? He thought the hon. Members below the Gangway would agree with what was said by the right hon. Member for Bodmin —namely, that above all things it would be necessary to appoint men who would be perfectly independent of all Parties in Ireland. What independence was going to be given to these authorities? The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Morley) said he was going to have their salaries voted by Parliament. Did he think that the landlords and those who sympathised with them would consider that the arbitrators were in a perfectly independent position when their salaries depended upon the course which Members below the Gangway might take? To set up a tribunal of this kind would be to set up a tribunal which, if it did act independently, would certainly not get the credit of it from any Party in Ireland. As far as he had understood the right hon. Gentleman, he had not at all professed to define what were the actual lines on which the arbitrators were to act. This, he ventured to think, was an entire mistake. If the arbitrators were to be left to find out for themselves how they were to act in relation to the evicted tenants, or the landlords, or the new tenants, a condition of chaos would be created which would render the Act utterly nugatory. Were the arbitrators to inquire into the history of evictions, or into the history of the Plan of Campaign, and were they to inquire whether the tenants on leaving their holdings were free agents or not? He believed that many of them were not free agents, but went out because the law was not strong enough to protect them in Ireland. If no definition was to be given to the arbitrators, different parties in Ireland would certainly raise the question, each from their own point of view, and there would never be a general consensus of opinion with each side doing its best to make the Act a success. The Leader of the Opposition had already suggested that there should be some method by which a valuation should be made. Was the State to advance money as upon the security in its present condition, or as upon the security of the farm in the condition in which it was when the tenant was evicted? A much more important question remained. How were the interests of the new tenants—the "planters" as they had been called—to be valued? The right hon. Gentleman had talked of some of the tenants having substantial interests, and some of them not having substantial interests. Everyone knew that every occupying tenant had a substantial interest in his holding. If it was to be laid down that the interests of the new tenants were to be compensated by the State, some definite lines on which those interests were to be valued should also be laid down. The hon. Member for Kerry had described the new tenants, or some of them, as being obnoxious persons who held untenable positions. He (Mr. Carson) wished to know whether they were to have the holdings valued on the assumption that they held untenable positions? If not, the only basis on which they could be valued was that of the fair market value. The matter, however, was not one on which an arbitrator could decide. It was a matter for the decision of the House, as it would lead to the question whether Parliament was prepared to withdraw its support from this particular class of tenants. He came now to the only other question he would venture to deal with on that occasion, and that was the question of finance. He could not see what was the object of the right hon. Gentleman in trying to lead the House to believe that the sum of £100,000 would be sufficient for his purpose. If the Bill were passed within 12 months the right hon. Gentleman, if he were still in power, or someone from the Conservative side if the Conservatives were then in power, would point out that the sum that had been given was absolutely useless, and would ask whether the Act was to become a dead letter simply for the want of £300,000 or £400,000 more. The question of finance must be gone into in great detail. It had been generally conceded throughout the Debate that there were at least 4,000 or 5,000 tenants who were to be restored to their holdings. If each of them received £50, how much of the £100,000 would there be left? The landlord had also to be paid a year's rent and his costs and the "planters" had also to be bought out. The right hon. Gentleman had not at all estimated what the number of these planters was likely to be, and he had passed over what was likely to be the most expensive item of all in connection with them. One of the Appendices of the Mathew Commission Report showed that on the Lansdowne estate alone 40 or 50 new tenants had purchased their holdings. It would be necessary to get rid of every one of these new tenants. Life would be intolerable for them in Ireland, and it would be utterly impossible for any one of them to remain on his holding, if it were thought that he was the only obstacle to the evicted tenant's return. Some of these men bought as far back as 1890, and had, therefore, found four or five years' instalments of the purchase money. It would be necessary for the State to take over the security upon which the Land Commission had advanced loans, and it would also be necessary to compensate these men for driving them out of a freehold for which they had found a large sum. There was one additional class of tenants on whom the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Morley) had not dealt at all —namely, those who had been put into their holdings as new tenants by the Land Purchase Act. At the present moment there were in the Land Judge's Court some 1,400 estates. Was it proposed that the lettings which had been made by the Chancery Division of the High Court were to be set aside? Did not the right hon. Gentleman see that he was bringing on a conflict of jurisdiction which would be of the most alarming character? The arbitrators would make a conditional Order that Mr. Justice Munro should turn out the tenants whom he accepted by a solemn Order of the Court some years previously, and the learned Judge would have to show cause why he could not go back on the Order made by him. He (Mr. Carson) had not much sympathy with leaving these 1,400 estates in Mr. Justice Munro's Court at all. He would suggest that those 1,400 estates should be left to Mr. Justice Munro to deal with in such a way as Parliament might choose. These tenants had got into possession under the sanction and by the order of the Court, and it would be a serious matter for the right hon. Gentleman to disturb them in their possession. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he had put forward these suggestions with the view of giving the Bill a full and fair consideration, because it was necessary that the right hon. Gentleman should be able to solve some of the very difficult problems that had been put before him, and which would have to be solved before it would be possible to pass the measure into law. The right hon. Gentleman would have to see whether there could not be some alternative arrived at besides turning out these men who were tenants under the existing law. He had always thought that it might be possible to solve the difficulty by applying the sum proposed to be advanced in the purchase of land on which to provide holdings for these evicted tenants. He was sure that in the present state of the Irish land market large tracts of land might be purchased for £100,000. He thought that that suggestion might be worth the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman. He had no doubt that the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman would give rise to many controversies in Ireland, because the tenant who had managed by borrowing money to pay his rent to tide over the bad time would protest against the evicted tenants being placed in a better position than that which he occupied. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to give the evicted tenants the advantage of compulsory purchase, which was not to be given to the existing tenant. With regard to the guarantee deposit, ,if it was to be abolished in the case of reinstated evicted tenants it ought to be abolished altogether. If the right hon. Gentleman could get over all the difficulties he had pointed out he could promise him his support in carrying this measure.
said, that his right hon. Friend opposite had proposed to deal very cleverly with a very difficult task—a task which might have appalled even the most logical mind, and had attempted to reconcile difficulties which appeared to him to be absolutely irreconcilable. What was the principle which underlay this Bill? In the whole history of Parliament no such Bill had ever before been laid before the House of Commons, because it was altogether opposed to the principles of British jurisprudence, inasmuch as it proposed to replace in their holdings men who had not shown themselves to be loyal subjects or men whom a landlord would choose as his tenants of his own free will. Quite the reverse. Out of all the evicted tenants those were specially singled out who least deserved sympathy. The first question they should ask themselves was this—Why do you select a certain class of tenants to replace them in their farms? Why were not the sympathies of the Government enlisted earlier? The explanation was given in a speech made yesterday by the Home Secretary, who said that the Government depended for its existence on an Irish majority. The Bill had been framed to satisfy a section of the Irish supporters of the Government; but as far as he could gather it did not really satisfy anybody. It did not satisfy, so far as he could gather, the supporters of the hon. Member for Waterford. One Irish Member had condemned it in language as strong as he could use himself. The hon. Member for East Mayo supported the Bill, but said that it would not settle the question.
:I said it would not settle the Land Question.
said, the Land Question was the question. If it were not that the Irish politician required to have something with which to bribe his followers, the Irish Question would be settled to-morrow. They now learnt that if this Bill were carried it would be only a temporary settlement. In fact, so far as he could make out, it was a Bill devised by the Government to whitewash the Plan of Campaign and its authors. If the Bill were carried, as he supposed it would be—as any Bill would be which the Government clearly submitted as a matter of confidence, for however much hon. Members disapproved of it they would vote for it, and he there- fore took it as a foregone conclusion that the Bill would pass through the House of Commons—what assurance was there that it would attain the objects of the Chief Secretary? The right hon. Gentleman believed it would settle a difficult question; but Irish Members said it would not. The supporters of the Member for Waterford, if he understood them rightly, absolutely rejected the Bill. The hon. Member for Mayo informed them that it would not settle the Land Question. Of course it would not settle the Land Question.
:This is only a section of the Land Question.
said, the Chief Secretary had said that the dual ownership of land was one that could not and ought not to continue, and that it was an insupportable condition of affairs. That was a view that he had heard maintained by gentlemen on his own side of the House, who knew nothing whatever about the question. He supported the first Land Bill because he felt that Irish tenants required protection, but one of the great arguments for it was that the Ulster custom had brought about amicable relations, and that it ought to be extended to the rest of Ireland. This dual ownership, which they were told was so monstrous, had long existed in Ulster, which was not the least prosperous part of the country; and now it was said the system could be no longer maintained. If this Bill passed he supposed dual ownership would cease. As a landlord, he looked upon the Bill as a direct attack upon the land-owning class. But if it was only an attack upon the land-owning class, and if it might possibly effect a solution of the Irish Question, and bring peace and harmony to Ireland, though a landlord, he would make a great sacrifice to bring that about. But it was not proposed to do away with landlords; it was proposed to sweep away the present landlords and to create 500,000 in their place. Thus the Bill would not abolish the Irish agitator; it would leave him more landlords to attack, and they would be much more incapable of defending themselves than the present landlords. Members should ask themselves why it was necessary that they should depart from the ordinary lines of legislation in order to force tenants back to their holdings. It was a sad sight to any man who cared for Ireland to see poor tenants living in huts in view of the farm which had been their home and that of their forefathers before them; but what effect ought that fact to have on the minds of the Irish people? It ought to point out to them that the men who advised them to adopt the course which had been their ruin were the men who all along had been at the bottom of Irish discontent and misfortune. The hon. , Member for Mayo appeared to claim some credit for having been the means of feeding some 15,000 families. He did not give the hon. Member any credit, because the hon. Member was the author of their misery. He and his colleague the Member for Cork ran in couples, and openly avowed that their object was, as the hon. Member for East Mayo stated the other night at Wolverhampton, to make law in Ireland impossible.
:I beg the hon. Member's pardon. What I said was that unfortunately since the Union we never could get any reform until the country was brought to the verge of civil war.
:Then his object was to bring the country to the verge of civil war. That description of it satisfied him quite as well as his other statement. There was a difference in the course pursued by the hon. Members for Mayo and Cork, although they ran in couples. They put him in mind of the highwaymen of a former age, who went in couples. One was a ferocious highway robber who presented his pistol at the heads of travellers, and the other was the smiling gentleman who accepted the unwilling tribute from the passengers inside. The hon. Member for Mayo went about the country and openly proclaimed that if any man backed down in the fight his life would not be a happy one. The hon. Member for Cork had a more sympathetic method, and, following up the hon. Member for Mayo, made a collection in two carpet bags. This was what happened after the hon. Member for Mayo had made his speech. The hon. Member for Cork said—
"There is nothing in all my life that has-touched me more than the way in which those thousands of poor western farmers scraped together the amount of their deposits, many of them, to my own knowledge, by begging and by borrowing, and the absolute and unques- tioning confidence with which they handed over their little store to a man like myself, a stranger to them, whose worldly goods were all contained in two portmanteaus."
If the House of Commons should think it was a wise thing to alter the whole character of their proceedings in order to satisfy the requirements of those two gentlemen, who happened to find themselves in a hole from which they could not extricate themselves, and if they were to tell the Irish landlords that instead of taking the solvent tenant they were to take those men who borrowed and begged their capital in order to place it in a portmanteau, they would be making a perfect mockery of themselves. If it could be shown that this would be a final solution of the Irish Question, hon. Members on his side of the House would earnestly consider it and try to make it acceptable. But there was no such pretence. From the Leaders of both sections below the Gangway they had had a clear statement that this would not be a real settlement at all—that it would be only a partial settlement. It was an effort to whitewash the Members for Mayo and Cork. One of the provisions of the Bill struck him as extremely ingenious. He always knew that the great difficulty that would present itself to the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland was this—how to deal with, and satisfactorily get rid of, the tenants who were now in the possession of evicted farms. This Bill would afford what he would call a natural process of eviction. The final decision was given to the present tenants whether they would give up their farms or not, and should they say "No," what would be the position? He ventured to say that anybody who had studied Irish affairs during the last 10 or 11 years knew well that if a man now in possession of one of these evicted farms refused to give it up, the hon. Member for Mayo, or the hon. Member for Cork, or some of the other Irish patriots of the same kidney, would appear in the neighbourhood and would denounce the land-grabber by name, and then his life would not be a happy one in Ireland or beyond the sea. It was because he believed that this Bill would settle nothing, because he looked upon it as simply an effort to tide over an Irish political difficulty, which did not affect the Government themselves, but affected the Party upon which the Government depended for support; because he believed that this Bill, instead of being good for Ireland, would accentuate those disasters which had stained her past, that he should oppose this measure. He could conceive no lesson more hopelessly pernicious than to teach the Irish people that, having disobeyed the law and having stuck to their disobedience, the House of Commons would whitewash them. He would rather teach the Irish people that the law must be obeyed, and that then the House of Commons would be willing to deal justly, fairly, and generously with them. When the Irish people had been taught this lesson, great progress would have been made in the solution of the Irish Question.
said, he approached this question from a different standpoint to that in which the hon. and gallant Gentleman viewed it, because he believed as a Representative of a purely working-class community in Ireland he was bound to look at the question from the point of view of how it would affect his constituents. He must say that to a large extent he sympathised with many of the expressions that had fallen from the Chief Secretary, and he entirely shared his views that the advantages which would be conferred on the community were not confined to the particular class with whom the Bill more especially dealt. He was perfectly certain that the majority of his constituents would feel that if this question could be solved honourably on the basis suggested by the Chief Secretary it would be a pure gain. On the other hand, he could not but remember that there were principles involved in this solution which affected very closely the welfare not only of those immediately concerned but of any commercial community, and he was tempted to ask whether supposing the advantages that were claimed for this solution by the Chief Secretary were to be obtained there would not be compensating disadvantages in the way, and whether they could not obtain the same advantage without making the same sacrifice of principle they were asked to make by the Bill. This Debate had not turned upon the general principles which underlay this great change they were about to make, and he thought it was high time to recall some of the general principles which would be affected not only in Ireland but England if this Bill became law, and he felt strongly that if these general principles were once tampered with they would affect not only the particular section of the community for whose benefit the Bill was intended, but they would affect every community in Ireland, including his constituents. The main features of this Bill were cutting straight at the basis of all their political institutions. They were, in the first place, asked to sanction a great measure of ex post facto legislation. They were asked to state that these tenants who were not present tenants were to be considered present tenants, were to be put in a position which the law at present did not concede to them, and were to be restored to the position which, if they had obeyed the ordinary law, they would have been in long ago. He regarded it as a calamity to accept any principle of ex post facto legislation. They were asked to select for reward persons who had no other claim for reward or distinction than that they had been prominent as breakers of the law. They were conferring not only the immediate advantages in view, but other subsidiary advantages on these tenants in contradistinction to other tenants who had come under the benefit of the Land Act in Ireland, and there was no doubt they were putting the crown on the illegal action of hon. Members below the Gangway and confirming the opinion in Ireland that there was only one way to acquire the support of the Imperial Parliament and that was to break the law and continue to break it. He saw very clearly the misery and misfortune, of the situation that had been created. He did not attach too much value to the appeal made by the hon. Member for East Mayo. Ho had heard the hon. Member on platforms and in that House, and he should never attach much value to his utterances in this House until he had the pleasure of observing a marked alteration in the character of the utterances the hon. Member gave vent to on platforms in Ireland, where they had more effect than they had in the House of Commons. He attached importance to the statement of the Chief Secretary that this question in its immediate aspects seriously concerned the peace of the country, but that did not convince him that this was the only solution. They had to face the sum of £100,000, which was to effect the solution of the case as the Chief Secretary put it. But there were two cases to be considered, the one which the Chief Secretary had in his mind and the case which the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin had in his mind. They were two totally different cases. The case pressed by the Chief Secretary was that of the hon. Member for East Mayo, who had a tin kettle tied to his tail and wanted to get rid of it. The hon. Member had got the Plan of Campaign tenants for whom he was responsible; they were preying on the community, and it was most desirable they should be taken away from the situation in which they at present stood. These were the men whom this Bill was to reinstate. If it were a case of £100,000 on the one side and of a great blow to their Constitution on the other, the game was not worth the candle, and there was a much more reasonable way in which this difficulty could be overcome. They had been told over and over again that the British public was dying to salve its conscience for the injury done to Ireland, and that it felt bitterly the wrong done to Ireland. If there was this grievous wrong or hardship in this case it would be a mere trifle to raise the £100,000, and solve the whole of the difficulty by, not out of public but out of private funds, making this bribe to the landlords on the one hand and the tenants on the other. There was no means of getting rid of the tenants except by some bribe acceptable to both landlords and tenants. It was a matter of merely £300 for everyone of the Gladstonian constituencies to collect, and it would be infinitely better if that was the whole problem that they should be relieved of it by means of private endeavour, and not leave their statute law and principles of legislation vitiated. It was said by the Leader of the Opposition with perfect truth that the sum proposed was, after all, a mere subsidy in aid of the Paris fund, and he should have great reluctance to vote in favour of a Bill which had no other object in view than that of subsidizing this Paris fund. Without going further, he said that a wholly different series of questions arose, and he should like to know a little more fully than the House had been told that night what was the view of the Chief Secretary with regard to tenants other than the Flan of Campaign tenants. For it must not be forgotten that there were two classes of tenants—the class who were mentioned in the Mathew Commission and those who were not—and he absolutely saw no reason why the whole of the tenants who had been evicted since 1879, wherever they were, should not be able to put in a claim for equal consideration if the wide interpretation of the Bill suggested by the hon. Member for the Harbour Division was accepted. If the Chief Secretary intended that the whole of the tenants should come in, then they should give this up as a hopeless problem at once. He should be glad to make some strong effort to bring about a solution of the difficulty, if the scheme was narrowed down so as to apply to the smaller number of tenants; but if they were going to have this wider proposal suggested to the House—and he saw absolutely nothing in the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman at the present moment which could or would exclude them—he declared it was simply a waste of time to propose this measure. He agreed with the Member for South Tyrone that to talk of £100,000 as in any way remotely resembling the cost of this operation, if it was to be conducted on the scale suggested by the Member for the Harbour Division, was absolutely and entirely a dream. He should be glad if the Chief Secretary could remove some of the objections which were boná fide objections he and others felt, not to the particular effort which was being made to remove this great sore in Ireland, but objections which applied, not only to this case, but to the mischievous effect it would have on all legislation in future. This was more than a question relating to 3,000 or 4,000 unhappy and misguided tenants in Ireland; it was a question which would affect all legislation, not only in regard to Ireland but the United Kingdom, and it was one in which the men who had to depend on the validity of contracts, and to conduct business on the faith of the laws under which they lived, were deeply concerned. It was rather too much to request hon. Members, on no stronger case than had been presented to them that night, to put their names to a Bill of this magnitude and character without any clear and definite explanation of what the limits of it were to be. They could not lightly embark on the operations of this kind, which involved the application of a great general principle to a particular instance, and which were opposed to those general principles of law that were the foundation of law and order in all countries. However he might sympathise with the object of the Bill, and he did sympathise with it to a. large extent, he could not support it unless he was made infinitely better acquainted than at present with the solution which presented itself to the minds of the Government in regard to the great questions of principle involved. He desired, however, to reserve final judgment on the Bill until he had seen its details, but he felt bound to say that as it had been presented he did not think it guaranteed any solution of the difficulty.
quite agreed that this was an occasion upon which it was not desirable to enter into any minute examination of the principles or details of this Bill. They had not the Bill before them in a form in which they could subject it to legitimate criticism. But he thought this was an occasion when those who, like himself, had taken considerable interest in times past in connection with land legislation for Ireland, should be permitted to say one or two words on the principle of the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member for Armagh referred to the fact that he, for one, had been a supporter of the Land Bill of 1870. He, like his hon. and gallant Friend, took some part, humble though it was, in connection with that Bill, though the part he took was exactly the reverse of that taken by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He was one of a band of 11, all told, who recorded their votes against the Second Reading of that Bill. He was certainly the only Parliamentary, and, he believed, the only physical survivor of that band, which was divided into different political Parties, only two others belonging to his Party, and he was certainly the only physical survivor of these. The other companions-who were with him in the Lobby on that occasion opposed the Bill, as the hon. Member for the Harbour Division had done that night, on grounds precisely the reverse of his. As regarded the principle of the Bill now before the House, they were told that they must and ought to make some sacrifice in order to settle the Irish Question. He had heard many appeals addressed to that House to make sacrifices to settle Irish questions. On the occasion he referred to, in 1870, they were told they were to make sacrifices of their convictions for the grand purpose of settling the Irish Question. He well remembered the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian making a pathetic appeal to the House to cast aside prejudices for the purpose of settling the Irish Question once and for all. They knew the result of that attempt, and how that Act of Parliament was one of the greatest injuries to Ireland and had landed them in the position they were now, when the Chief Secretary came down and asked them to make one more attempt to settle the Irish Question by casting once more to the winds the principles hitherto regarded as sacred by that House. What was the principle the right hon. Gentleman asked them to adopt? He asked them to lay their hands on public funds. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out they were Irish funds. He admitted they were Irish funds, abstracted from —he always used to say stolen from— but after the lapse of so many years he might, perhaps, use the somewhat negative expression, and say sums of money abstracted from one section of the Irish people, and it was understood at the time that they were to be appropriated with the subsequent sanction of Parliament to objects which were, generally speaking, beneficial to the Irish people at large. He did his best himself to remove as much of that fund as he could from the temptation of future occupants of the post of Chief Secretary, which he then held, and he succeeded in inducing Parliament to appropriate a considerable portion of the Irish Church Fund to what he believed to be beneficial uses. The provision of pensions for school teachers and the relief of distress were objects which were not only temporarily beneficial, but he thought that the school teachers fund was regarded as beneficial even at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to lay hands on that fund. And for what object? For the purpose of offering a premium on agitation, and of making it plain to the people of Ireland that the way to obtain a share of the public funds was to conduct themselves in a manner contrary to the ordinary law and take part in an illegal conspiracy and agitation. The Leader of the Opposition had very properly remarked that in the position he occupied he would reserve his criticism on this Bill, for the most part, until a later stage, and he deprecated the employment of any phraseology which would unduly add heat to our proceedings; therefore, he (Mr. Lowther) should very largely modify the expression of what he really felt himself with regard to this Bill. The Chief Secretary would realise that he was speaking very much in the mark when he said that the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to hand this money to persons who had proved themselves to be dishonest and law breakers, and who, in no way, were deserving of any share in public funds. Who were these people? They might be divided into two classes. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken exclusively of the Campaign tenants, although he had since been reminded that they were only the fringe of the large mass of evicted tenants in Ireland. The Campaign tenants were either bankrupt or dishonest —most of them both. Could the right hon. Gentleman say that these persons whom he was asking Parliament to place in the occupation of land had one solitary farthing of capital to employ on that land? The right hon. Gentleman knew that they were dishonest men, many of them who kept the money in their own pockets which belonged to other persons, and having declined to discharge their just debts the right hon. Gentleman now asked Parliament to depart from its traditions, and place these people as tenants once more in the farms they had justly forfeited. No doubt there were in Ireland some honest men who, through misfortune—probably owing to foreign competition—had, like farmers elsewhere, found farming unprofitable, but they were limited in number, and it was not for them that the Chief Secretary asked Parliament to depart from all its traditions. The right hon. Gentleman said it was to the interest of all Parties in the State and all persons in Ireland that this vexed question should be set at rest. What was this question. He had known many questions in the past which pre- sented features of difficulty, but he never knew one more simple than the one before them that night. It was the simplest that ever came to his knowledge. Where were the features of difficulty? There was a certain category of persons who by their acts had put themselves in the position of being placed outside the holdings they formerly occupied, and in some cases their places were taken by others who more worthily filled them. There were in other cases farms held in hand by the owners, and in other cases, through terrorism which their friends exercised, farms remained derelict. But, at any rate, these persons possessed no claim according to law, and why should they disturb the status quo. He believed that if the evicted tenants were left in their present position they would afford a valuable warning to those who might be inclined to follow their example. The right hon. Gentleman thought that by passing the Bill he would get rid of the difficulty. But did he not think that in a few years hence those fortunate persons who had been rewarded for their dishonesty would find many imitators? The honest tenants had nothing given them; but the dishonest scoundrels had been rewarded: The honest men would, if the Bill were to become law, have few imitators, while the dishonest scoundrels would have afforded an object lesson that would be largely followed: He could not at all see the policy of taking a step of such an immoral character as that suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. The man who honestly paid his way was not offered back by the right hon.: Gentleman the money he had paid, but the dishonest fraudulent debtor was handsomely awarded. He was sure that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were asked for a shilling out of the Revenue for such a purpose he would refuse it. But the right hon. Gentleman might feel certain that he would be called upon sooner or later. The miserable inadequacy of this £100,000, as an attempt to deal with so vast a question, must hereafter enforce an application on the holder of the public purse. By passing this Bill they would be placing a premium on agitation, and eventually create fresh difficulties in the government of Ireland; they would be calling into existence further agitators, and they would have spent this public money for no other purpose than to have discouraged industry and thrift in Ireland and offered a direct incentive to robbery and spoliation. He did not wish to use language which was at all adequate to the occasion, but he had always for many years said that those measures—he said it in opposing the Land Act of 1870, the Act of 1880, and in moving to discharge the Order for a Land Bill introduced, he was sorry to say, by one of his own political friends, the late Lord Mayo— that they were attempts to rob one class for the supposed benefit of another; and though he admitted that the right hon. Gentleman had offered in the Bill some inducements to the landowners of Ireland to entertain favourably some of its provisions, he felt bound, from the point of view of an English Member, with, unfortunately, some knowledge and recollection of Irish affairs, to enter his emphatic protest against Parliament being induced, even if it were proved to be a distinct advantage to the landlords of Ireland, to establish so mischievous a precedent as was embodied in this Bill. He refused to enter into the question as to how far previous Governments had lent themselves to mischievous precedents like this. Reference had been made to some section or other of some Act or other—he believed it was Section 13 of the Act of 1891—a more or less mischievous measure, and he was inclined to think more rather than less, which had been passed by the late Conservative Government. If a section of that Act established a bad precedent, so much the worse for the section of that Act; but he did not think they established the precedent which the Chief Secretary sought to draw from them. The Act of 1891 and Section 13 of that Act dealt entirely with the question of purchase; and the right hon. Gentleman could not fairly say that they afforded a just precedent for the proceedings he was asking the House that night to initiate. He would point out, in conclusion, that the whole treatment of this question of evicted tenants afforded a real object lesson to Parliament. Some slight reference had been made to a Commission which reflected great discredit on an eminent judicial authority who had left his judicial character behind him when he went for a short time into Ireland. He did not wish to dwell upon that Commission, and still less upon any personal aspect of the question; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would realise that in assenting to the introduction of this Bill he and hon. Members who shared in his views were not precluded from offering the most strenuous opposition not only to details, but to the very groundwork and framework of the Bill. He hoped that the forecasts of Parliamentary sanction to the Bill—which had been indulged in by some of his hon. Friends —would not be realised; and he believed it would be found that the country was distinctly opposed to affording a legislative imprimatur of dishonesty to those who had refused to pay their just debts.
:I think everyone will agree that as much has been said on the introduction of this Bill as is required on such an occasion. The hostility which, almost alone of those who have spoken, the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down declared against the Bill is not altogether a bad omen. The right hon. Gentleman was also utterly opposed to the Acts of 1870 and 1881, and even of 1891. If the first two of those Acts had not been passed, Ireland would have been ungovernable; and the right hon. Gentleman's own administration was followed by the most tremendous outburst of agrarian crime known in modern times. The right hon. Gentleman also said that the Bill involved the smallest question that he had ever had to consider, whereas hon. Members from all quarters of the House who have spoken to-night have agreed that the question of the evicted tenants in Ireland is one of the utmost difficulty and danger. I think that on the whole I have no reason to be dissatisfied with the criticisms that have been passed upon the Bill, because no hon. Member had said, without qualification, that he was opposed either to the introduction or the Second Reading of the Bill. The most important contribution to the Debate to-night has been the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin. My right hon. Friend has most seriously impressed upon all parties the necessity for arriving at some reasonable settlement of this question, and of approaching the consideration of the question in a reasonable frame of mind. My right hon. Friend said—and I call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to it—that if you refuse the pro- posals which are made in this Bill, or at least if you approach those proposals in what I will call a non possumus spirit, you may depend upon it you are leaving for yourselves—when your time comes, sooner or later, to undertake the government of Ireland—a worse situation than that in which we are now placed. Only one speaker, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Harbour Division, has challenged the Bill head and front. I deeply regret that. I think that when the hon. Member for Dublin Harbour comes to take counsel with his friends he will become somewhat less hostile to the Bill than he has shown himself to be to-night.
:I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I did not attack the Bill so far as it goes. I said that its provisions with regard to the reinstatement of the tenants whose farms are now vacant is satisfactory, but I said that the Bill did not go far enough; that it only touched the fringe of the question, and that by no means would it establish peace in Ireland.
:I am glad to find that I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman in the matter. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition expressed his surprise to find that the Irish Church Fund could still yield the sum of £100,000, that he had been told in 1891 that the Fund was mortgaged up to the hilt, and he asked whether circumstances had arisen since 1891 to replenish the Fund which was then supposed to be exhausted. I do not know what representations were made to the right hon. Gentleman, and I can only assure him that the Treasury have told me that there there will be no difficulty in raising this £100,000. I will lay on the Table a Treasury statement as to how the Fund now stands. It has been suggested that I should lay down in the Bill the lines upon which the tribunal should proceed in fixing a fair rent or a fair price for the land, but I think it would be extremely difficult to do so. The same objection might have been raised by the Land Act of 1881. You cannot lay down a set of fixed principles by which fair rents or fair purchase may be interpreted. There are a number of considerations which cannot be set out in an Act, and which practical experienced men who are appointed to deal with the matter will think out for themselves as they go along. I have been asked to consider how the Bill will affect new tenants who were put in by the Laud Judge. That is certainly a point worth consideration, but I think that when the hon. and learned Member who raised it sees the Bill he will find that it has not been overlooked. The hon. Member for Belfast said that his great objection to the Bill was that it was ex post facto legislation, but surely legislation cannot be said to be ex post facto simply because it is inspired by experience and guided by circumstances which are already in existence. Complaint has been made that I have not stated fully enough the facts and figures upon which we felt ourselves bound to introduce the Bill and the difficulties the Bill is designed to meet. I may say, in regard to that complaint, that I gave the House as long a statement as I thought it would appreciate; but I hope, however, that on the Second Reading I shall be able to make good any deficiency in that respect.
Motion agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. J. Morley and the Solicitor General.
Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 176.]
Conciliation (Trade Disputes) Bill.—(No. 125.)
Second Reading
Order for Second Reading read.
* parties to the difference to meet together, by themselves or their representatives, under the presidency of a Chairman mutually agreed upon, or nominated by the Board of Trade or by some other person or body, with a view to the amicable settlement of the difference. He maintained that the best method to obtain a settlement was to bring an equal number of each party to the difference to sit down together at a table there, upon the footing of equality, to discuss the differences between them. He knew complaint had been made that the Bill did not go far enough, because it did not give compulsory powers and because it provided no means of enforcing any settlement that might be arrived at; but all those who had been engaged in this good work for the last 30 years, without a single exception, deprecated any attempt to introduce the element of compulsion into these voluntary Boards. Conciliation had in the past accomplished marvellous results. He would have liked, if he had time, to give to the House some evidence from a remarkable document he had before him—namely, an account of a conference which took place in the City of Durham, under the presidency of the Bishop of Durham, in trade disputes, showing the testimony brought forward by the most experienced men in the North of England who had taken the lead in bringing trade disputes to an amicable settlement. Mr. Robert Knight, the secretary of the wealthiest and most prosperous Trade Union in the Kingdom, the Boilermakers' and Shipbuilders' Society, appeared before the Royal Commission and gave admirable evidence on the working of conciliation in his own industry. He was asked several questions on the point, and he said there had been no general strike in the trade for 20 years. The very best feeling existed in the trade where before there was irritation and resentment between the masters and the workmen. He said that the effect upon the funds of the Society of this absence of strikes was, that whereas formerly the expenditure of the funds had been enormous owing to strikes, within the last two years the whole cost in that respect had fallen to 1½ per cent. of the Society's income. But there were other leaders besides Trades Unions leaders who gave evidence of the good which had been done by conciliation. Mr. David Dale, a man who had done more than anyone else to reconcile capital and labour in this country, and whose excellent work at the Conference in Berlin had borne good work in Germany, had expressed himself as strongly opposed to compulsion. This gentleman had, furthermore, declared himself in favour of the present measure, believing that it would be followed by satisfactory results. Mr. Whitwell, Chairman of the Iron Trade Association, and many other authorities, had supported this view. He himself had had 35 years' experience in dealing with these subjects. He had sat on a Board of Conciliation for 13 years, and never in a single instance had they attempted compulsion. It had never been required, for it was found that employers would give way to a much greater extent under voluntary arrangements than they would under dictation or compulsion. It was said, "But you introduced a Bill to enforce arbitration in 1872, and placed it on the Statute Book." Well, the London Trades Council thought there should be some means of enforcing an award, and they asked Mr. Justice Wright to draw up a Bill for them, providing that where the two parties agreed the award should be enforced. They asked him (Mr. Mundella) to introduce the measure, and he had replied, "It can do no harm, and it may do some good. I have not much faith in it, but I am willing to try it." The other Member who put his name on the back of it was Mr. W. H. Smith. In 1871 or 1872 they carried this Bill; but what had been the result? There had never been a single case put under it. Both masters and workmen shrank from anything that savoured of a Court of Law. They objected to go where they had to swear oaths, produce books, and do things under compulsion. Therefore, the House might to-morrow repeal all the Acts relating to compulsory arbitration, for they had never been acted on. The conciliation clause introduced into the Railway Bill of 1888 did more in one year to lessen disputes arising than the right to appeal to any tribunal, however powerfully constituted and expensive, would ever have done. The widest questions had been dealt with under it—questions affecting whole groups or classes of goods and affecting whole trades, and it had been a very gratifying thing for a Government Department to receive letters of thanks from traders and Railway Companies for their very good offices they had used and the satisfactory results that had been attained. They might be told, "You could have done that without the Statute Book—the Railway Company would have listened to you." But the Board of Trade would have had no locus standi and no opportunity of making Reports to the House, and those Reports were very important in their bearing upon public opinion. The proposed Conciliation Board must have a legal standing in order that its powers might be clearly defined. He greatly regretted that the Report of the Royal Labour Commission was not before the House. He had watched the proceedings of that Commission with the deepest interest, and he knew what would be the result of the investigation. He was sure it would give force and effect to the Bill. In conclusion, he pointed out that the subject was a national and not a Party question. No Party capital could possibly be got out of it, and he hoped, therefore, that the House would take a wide and broad view of the measures it was proposed to introduce. He hoped that the House would consent to the Second Reading, and send the Bill to a Grand Committee for full discussion, in conjunction with the Bill that had been introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the London University (Sir J. Lubbock) on the same subject.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Mundella. )
said, there was one statement of the right hon. Gentleman with which he agreed. He joined in the regret of the right hon. Gentleman that the Report of the Labour Commission had not been made before the Second Reading of the Bill had come on for discussion. He would remind the House of the action of the President of the Board of Trade only a few days ago, when the Second Reading of the Poor Law Relief Bill was postponed owing to the action of the Government because there was a. Committee sitting to inquire into that very question. One of the most important questions considered by the Labour Commission was the question of arbitration in labour disputes, and this Bill was now being brought forward without that Commission having reported. He contended that the Bill was practically useless, because it did not contain any compulsory powers, and that, therefore, nothing could be done under it which could not be as well done without it. He should be the last person to advocate compulsory powers of any sort or kind, but he argued that this Bill contained nothing which could not be done without its provisions, and that without compulsion it would be of no use whatever. The Bill would be of no use to miners in the North of England, because in Durham and some other of the Northern Counties the men and the coalowners worked well together, and if disputes arose they were settled by the representatives of each side, and had no need, therefore, to apply to any Conciliation Board. He did not wish to see compulsory powers placed in the Bill, but at the same time he was convinced that the measure would be no use without them.
* said, his noble Friend entirely misinterpreted the principles on which the Bill was founded. He dissented from the view that compulsory power was required. How could they have compulsory power to make one man receive a wage which he was not inclined to take and another man to pay what he did not feel inclined to pay, unless the arbitration was voluntary. The coal strike in Durham had lasted for more than three months, and had brought ruin to many hundreds of persons in no way connected with the coal industries, and how was that strike at last brought to an end? It was brought to an end by the Bishop of Durham, who asked both parties to meet him, and under whose influence arrangements were made which put an end to the trouble. That was all done voluntarily. What did the Bill do? All that it would do was to prevent a strike from going on for any length of time without offering a tribunal to the men or the employers affected; and the compulsory force behind it was, after all, public opinion. If the employers declined the arbitration of the Board of Trade, or if the workmen declined it, public opinion would be against those who declined conciliation. The public would say, "They have a bad case, and dare not go before a tribunal. He would give the House his own experience as an arbitrator in the wrought-iron trade. Some years ago he gave an award for an advance which was not thought by the men to be sufficient, and the men struck against the award. They were on strike about 14 days; but they returned to work at last because the public opinion of the district was against them for striking against an award. At the end of three months, when the award expired, the men proposed him as arbitrator to the employers on a further point of difference. These were the sort of cases one met with in every-day life. If compulsion had been tried in that case it would have failed. He was not fond of placing new powers in the hands of the Board of Trade or of any Government Department, but all the Bill did was to allow the Board of Trade to suggest an arbitration and do their best to effect conciliation.
* said, he was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade for promising to allow his Bill to go to the Committee together with the Government measure. It showed that the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to give the principle of both measures an opportunity of being discussed. They all recognised the services the right hon. Gentleman had rendered to the principle of conciliation, and agreed that every opinion coming from him was of great value; but while he (Sir J. Lubbock) entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the importance of the subject, he was afraid he could not share with him his view as to the usefulness of the present Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said it should not go too far; but he (Sir J. Lubbock) ventured to think that it did not go anywhere at all. At the present moment the Board of Trade, if it liked, could inquire into trade differences; it could invite the parties to a conference, and it could appoint a Board of Conciliation. These were the only points in the Bill, but they gave no new powers so far as the Board of Trade was concerned. The provision as to the appointment of arbitrators was unnecessary for the same reason, as also was that in regard to sending down into the country to make inquiries as to differences existing between employers and employed.
:We can do it now, but we have no locus standi.
said, the right hon. Gentleman admitted they could do it now. The Bill further gave power to the Board of Trade to present annually a Report on this subject to Parliament. That, also, they could do without an Act. He failed, therefore, to see that the Bill, if carried, could have any good effect. Rightly or wrongly, his (Sir J. Lubbock's) own Bill, however, did go a great deal further, and it had the unanimous support of the Chambers of Commerce and of the leading London Trades Unionists. That Bill was not introduced on behalf of the employers, but was equally supported by the employed. Though the Bill before the House was not likely to effect much, that was no reason why it should not be read a second time and sent to a Select Committee. He should therefore support the Motion for the Second Reading.
said, in introducing the Motion the right hon. Gentlemen had said that his explanation of it would be brief and inadequate. He (Mr. Pierpoint) agreed with the right hon. Gentleman in that statement. The speech he had delivered had been all briefness, and no explanation of the Bill. And as for the Bill, it was all Bill without any conciliation. Every one of its provisions had been practically provided for by what had been done already. The right hon. Gentleman devoted himself entirely to explaining what was not in the Bill, and did not give a single second to what was in it, for the simple reason that he recognised that it contained nothing.
It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
Education Code, 1894
Motion for an Address
said, that on Tuesday night a wish was universally expressed that there should be a postponement until the evening of the discussion on two points of difficulty which had arisen in connection with the Code, and he proposed now shortly to trouble the House with a few reasons why in respect of those matters he thought it desirable the House should pray Her Majesty to withhold her assent. Article 73, as originally presented by the Vice President, was very objectionable. It limited altogether the free action of the school, and would inevitably have created a necessity for extra teachers, thereby throwing additional expense on the school. But in consequence of the pressure put upon the right hon. Gentleman by the Opposition the Article had been modified and improved, though it was still far from satisfactory. The amended Article introduced a new phrase in the very remarkable English the Department always used, and it limited the school in respect of the number of children which each teacher might teach. The words used were, "The number of children habitually present at one time." He frankly confessed he found great difficulty in determining the exact meaning of those words. This phrase was most ambiguous, and the unreasonable demands of the Department had always been founded on some ambiguous phrase in either the Code or in an Act of Parliament. There would be constant dispute and misunderstanding as to what the words "habitually present" really meant, and it would lead to much correspondence and great irritation, which he was sure the right hon. Gentleman himself would be the first to desire to avoid. That was not the only objection. The Article fixed the capacity of teachers per class instead of per school. The head teacher of a school might be qualified to deal not merely with 60 or 70 pupils, but with 100, while another and less skilful teacher might not be qualified to deal with the maximum number of children set down in the Article. A far better arrangement would be for the skilful man to be allowed to deal with 100 children, whilst the less skilful one might perhaps have no more than 40 or 50 pupils. These were matters which ought to be left to the managers of a school to arrange; but if the Article proposed by the right hon. Gentleman passed in its present form no such arrangements could be made, and there would be an end of all elasticity. The last point he had to touch upon was the manner in which the position of the teachers was dealt with. The Article might be interpreted to mean that the head teacher was not to be counted among the staff of the school for certain purposes. In large schools the probability was that the Head Master would be excluded from the computation when the question for how many children the staff of a school was adequate came up for consideration. A class might be under his control, but it would not necessarily be under his instruction, although he might be instructing it a small part of the time. For these reasons that paragraph of the Article seemed entirely unsatisfactory. The last paragraph of the Article would certainly make it necessary to increase the staff of the school, and would thus impose an additional burden upon localities where the school rate was already abnormally high. He would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain why he considered it necessary thus to increase the staffs. The expense which elementary education in this country had already reached should make the House pause before any further expense was thrown on the ratepayers. He was perfectly certain that neither the late Mr. Forster nor Lord Sandon had the least conception of the height to which elementary education would run. In Board school districts it was now well over £2 per scholar, and even in voluntary schools, which were far more economically managed, it nearly approached £2. Before the right hon. Gentleman threw extra expense on the unfortunate country schools, which he was harassing every day in the week, he should give some reason for doing so. Now he came to Article 90, which provided what was known as the 17s. 6d. limit. The Article was founded on Section 19 of the Act of 1876, and it provided that the grant should not exceed the amount per child, except by the sum by which the income of the school derived from voluntary subscriptions and receipts from other sources outside the Parliamentary grant exceeded such amount. In other words, the Act of Parliament provided that the Parliamentary grant should not exceed the 17s. 6d. limit unless the income from other sources was equal in amount to the grant. The words of the Act were very wide in regard to the meaning of "income," and in the 20th section of the Act of 1876, which was referred to in Article 9, it was indicated that income which should be allowed to count for grant must be applied for the purposes of public elementary schools. That seemed to be a perfectly plain proposition. The Code sought unjustly to reduce the incomes of schools by excluding expenditure on building from consideration in the limitation of the grant. In this respect he believed the Code was illegal, and contravened the Act; certainly it was contrary to the spirit of the Act. The Code was irrational and illogical in that it made a distinction between repairs and the erection of buildings, between rent and capital expenditure. This was one of many examples in which the Code sought to evade the objects of the Act of Parliament, and he doubted very much if the Article in that respect was legal. At any rate, it was a provision which the House ought not to accept, and he hoped they would disagree with it and allow the managers to include in their account statements of expenditure on repairs and buildings. The Department was a regular bully. It always attacked people who they thought would not resist. There was the case of the Highbury Vale school as to which a question was put in the House by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dartford. "My Lords" had refused to have anything to do with the grant before the question was put, but when the right hon. Gentleman intervened they promptly yielded. Had it been a poor country school it would probably have fared differently. Exactly the same thing occurred in another case, and it was quite obvious that the ground on which the Department had proceeded was illogical and illegal. He knew that very often, through the intervention of Members of that House, these wrongs were set right, but the great delay that took place in the payment of grants was a very serious thing for the schools. A good deal of correspondence had to take place between the Department and the school managers, which usually resulted in the delay of the payment for some months. Both on the ground of the Act of Parliament itself, and on the general ground of convenience, he thought the time had come when the Article ought to be altered, and he therefore moved the omission of these words. Again and again, during the Debates which took place when the 17s. 6d. limit was established, it was stated that the desire on all hands was to stimulate voluntary subscriptions, and it was said over and over again that it was absolutely necessary for the purposes of education that the schools themselves, and all the apparatus for education, should be as efficient as possible. There was nothing more important than the erection of good schools, and if subscriptions were stimulated on that account good work was done. For all these reasons, he submitted that the time had come when these words ought to be omitted. He pressed upon the Minister for Education the enormous importance of not allowing the Code to violate the Act of Parliament.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to withhold Her assent to the words in page 17, article 90, of the Education Code of 1894, viz., 'any outlay on the premises beyond the cost of ordinary repairs or,' and to all the words of the Minute of the 17th April 1894 from 'in order that,' to the end."—( Viscount Cranborne. )
said, the noble Lord, who undoubtedly knew a great deal about educational matters, had ended his speech with some moderation as regarded the Education Department itself, although he (Mr. Acland) knew that he regarded him personally with grave suspicion. He did not wish to speak of him so severely as the Prime Minister spoke of a noble Lord who had gone down to his (Mr. Acland's) father's estate, to bring against him a charge of treating leniently the schools on his father's estate. He did not say that the noble Lord had got so far as that yet. But he had used words which he could not pass over. He said just now that the Department was a regular bully. He (Mr. Acland) had said before that he wished the noble Lord could take his place. If he did so, he would undoubtedly resent in the strongest terms language of that sort being used against his Department. The Education Department was not a regular bully. It did not always attack those who could not resist. The heads of the Education Department, the secretaries, the assistant secretaries, and the examiners, many of them appointed by patronage under Conservative Governments, were high-minded men, who did their duty properly and thoroughly, and they were neither bullies nor were they persons who tried to trample upon those who could not resist. They were engaged in important works, and they were not, he repeated, bullies, as the noble Lord suggested. Now, the noble Lord proposed to omit certain words from Section 90, to the effect that any outlay on premises beyond the cost of ordinary repairs was not to be included in the school accounts for the purpose of what was called the 17s. 6d. limit. The noble Lord held high language upon this subject. He might remind him that the words had been in the Code for the last 21 years, and they had been in the Code with the permission and sanction of the Duke of Richmond, Lord Sandon, Lord Knutsford, Lord Cranbrook and the late Vice President of the Department. If the words were so objectionable he should have thought that they would have been objected to long ago. The fact was that they were based upon an Act of Parliament which the noble Lord appeared to have overlooked. The words appeared in Section 96 of the Act of 1870, and provided that no Parliamentary grant should be made in respect of buildings, enlarging, improving or fitting up of an elementary school except in those cases where applications were sent in before the 31st of December 1870. It was in accordance with that section, and because any money granted for buildings other than in repairs under the 17s. 6d. limit would be a direct infringement of that section, that these words were incorporated in the Code; and if these words were not in the Code the Act of Parliament would have the same effect. Lord Sandon held that no part of the annual grant now paid might be appropriated under this section of the Act to enlarging, improving, or fitting up of schools, and that all annual grants must be devoted to annual maintenance, and, so far as school buildings were concerned, included charges for ordinary repairs to premises and furniture, and nothing else. When the late Lord Sandon wrote that, was it to be supposed that he did not know what he was talking about? [Viscount CRANBORNE: No.] Well, apparently not. If the noble Lord looked at that section of the Act, and at the Code, and compared the two, and remembered also that the former President of the Council, whom he had mentioned, had not at- tempted to strike out the words—and that even if they were struck out they would hold just the same by virtue of the Act of Parliament—he would see that Parliament could not make a grant in aid of buildings.
said, what he suggested was that the grant which was actually earned by a school ought not to be cut off because some other money was voted to the school.
said, what the noble Lord wanted was that money raised for building purposes should be included as income, and the grant from Parliament given, if the 17s. 6d. limited was exceeded, to meet that income, which included money for building. [Viscount CRANBORNE: It is earned.] That would be giving a grant for building purposes, and that had been held to be wrong by all the distinguished persons he had mentioned. If he was wrong he was wrong in very good company. As to the other point with regard to the proportion of scholars and teachers, he would first of all point out that a large number of persons interested in voluntary schools were very well satisfied with the words to which objection was now taken. The words did not affect the grant at all. They were mere directory words. Therefore, so far as he was concerned, knowing perfectly well that there was general satisfaction with these words, he saw no reason to alter them. Nor did he believe that the teachers desired to have them in the form of the Amendment moved by the noble Lord. As to the time given for the reduction of the proportions of scholars to teachers from 60 to 50, from 70 to 60, and from 50 to 45, he could only say that two years' notice appeared to the Department to be a reasonable one. They desired to give fair notice of any change. He did not know whether the noble Lord thought that a teacher could teach 100 scholars, but whether he thought so or whether he did not, it was certain that there were hundreds of teachers and Inspectors who did not think a teacher capable of teaching 100 scholars. If the noble Lord thought that the Minute was aimed at voluntary schools he was very much mistaken. All that was intended was in two years time a Regulation of a very moderate kind should come into force, reducing the number of scholars for the relief of the teachers and the benefit of the children themselves. There was nothing in the words that the noble Lord wanted to omit that would affect the grant at all.
said, this was the last occasion they would have of speaking upon this subject, and he hoped the House would courteously allow him two or three minutes for the remarks he wished to make. He must say that the interpretation which the right hon. Gentleman put upon this section of the Code was considered a very great hardship by the voluntary schools. They complained that the money they themselves raised for these purposes was cut off by the Department. The answer which had been given by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education to the noble Lord had caused him great pain and disappointment. With regard to the proportion of scholars and teachers, he did not know who were the voluntary school authorities who had indicated to the right hon. Gentleman that they were satisfied with the modifications made by the Code. He ventured to say that if the National Society could be called an authority, that that Society would not be satisfied by any means. When he ventured on Tuesday night to bring this subject before the House, his right hon. Friend complained of his action because he was about to present a Minute upon the subject. He had now got that Minute in his hand. No doubt the Minute was to some extent an improvement for which they must be grateful. Still, it contained these words to which they objected—that the numbers would be reduced from 60 to 50, from 70 to 60, and from 50 to 45. These words, he ventured to warn the Minister, would be made a grievance against the voluntary schools, and be made the ground of an agitation for an increase of the staff of teachers. This provision would entail a most grievous charge upon voluntary schools, and once more in the great interest of voluntary schools throughout England he made his protest against the retention of the words.
Question put.
The House divided: — Ayes 26; Noes 122.—(Division List, No. 29.)
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.—(No. 122.)
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Local Government (Ireland) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) Bill. (No. 115.)
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Army (Annual) Bill, without Amendment.
Law Library, Four Courts (Ireland) Bill.—(No. 131.)
As amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.
Wild Birds' Protection Act (1880) Amendment Bill.—(No. 134.)
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 1.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Solicitors' Examination Bill. (No. 112.)
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
East London Water Bill
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee on the East London Water Bill, in Session 1886, and the Southwark and Vauxhall Water Bill, in Session 1891, be referred to the Committee on the East London Water Bill.—( Dr. Farquharson. )
Dogs Bill
On Motion of Mr. Herbert Gardner, Bill to consolidate and amend certain enactments relating to Dogs, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Gardner, Mr. Secretary Asquith, Mr. Solicitor General, and The Lord Advocate.
Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 177.]
Justices (Fees)
Return presented, — relative thereto [Address 14th December, 1893; Mr. A. C. Morton ]; to lie upon the Table.
Aliens
Return presented,—relative thereto [Address 12th April; Mr. H. L. W. Lawson ]; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 81.]
Education (Scotland.)
Copy presented,—of Statement showing (1) the expenditure from the Grant for Public Education in Scotland in the year 1893 upon Annual Grants to Elementary Schools; and (2) the actual number of Elementary Schools on the Annual Grant List, &c, and the Results of the Inspection and Examination of Elementary Schools during the year ended 30th September, 1893 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National School Teachers (Ireland) Pension Fund
Copy presented,—of Annual Account of Receipts and Payments for the year 1893, &c. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Superannuation Act, 1884
Copy presented,—of Treasury Minute, dated 10th April, 1894, declaring that James Marsh (Artificer, Royal Small Arms Factory), War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Government Property in the County of London (Contributions in Lieu of Local Rates)
Return ordered, "showing (1) the name of each Parish in which the Government occupies property; (2) the extent and character of such property; (3) the valuation put upon such property for local rating; (4) the amount of Contribution paid to each Parish in the last financial year; and (5) special Acts of Parliament (if any) applicable to the case."—( Mr. Pickersgill. )
Local Government Board (Circular Letters)
Return ordered, "of the several Circular Letters which have been issued by the Local Government Board to Local Authorities with reference to the provisions of 'The Local Government Act, 1894.'"—( Mr. Heneage. )
House adjourned at two minutes before One o'clock.