House of Commons
Monday, April 23, 1894
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;—
The House went; and being returned;—
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to,—
1. Behring Sea Award Act, 1894.
2. Army (Annual) Act, 1894.
Questions
Questions
Emigration Statistics
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that, under the American Immigration and Foreign Labour Law of the 3rd of March, 1893, the master and surgeon of every vessel carrying emigrants to America has to swear before the United States Consul at the port of departure full particulars as to the age, sex, and occupation of all emigrants carried in their ship, as well as other details with regard to their antecedents and present condition, and that the result has been that, of 7,637 brought during the past year before the Board of Special Inquiry, 1,653 were refused admission and sent back to England, at the expense of the Steamship Company conveying them, as unworthy of American citizenship; and if Her Majesty's Government will in future obtain more accurate information than is now furnished concerning the increasing augmentation from abroad of the labour competition in London and other great towns?
; The United States Immigration Law of the 3rd of March, 1893, requires the master or first or second officer and the surgeon of every vessel carrying emigrants to the United States to verify on oath or affirmation before the United States Consul at the port of departure lists containing such particu- lars regarding the emigrants as are mentioned in the question. We have no Returns showing the number sent back in the past calendar year, but it appears that in the year ending June 30 last the number returned to all countries was 1,630, but from inquiries made of the Shipping Companies carrying emigrants from the United Kingdom to the States, it appears that only 340 were brought back to this country from all causes in the year 1893. The Labour Department are preparing a Report on the effect of alien immigration on the demand for labour. This is nearly ready.
Industrial Accidents
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he could, in order to add to the usefulness of The Labour Gazette, under the heading " Industrial Accidents," give the percentage of accidents to the number of persons employed, in addition to the figures already given?
The Board of Trade have no information as to how many persons are employed in factories and workshops, and consequently the percentages suggested by my hon. Friend cannot be given. Such particulars as are known are given in the introductory heading to the table, and will be found in this month's number of the Gazette, at page 123.
The Case of Saxon, the Sailor
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the case of S. Saxon, a seaman, who was pensioned on the 3rd of January, 1893, having been lent to the Japanese Navy from the 6th of March, 1890, to the 6th of August, 1891; whether this man became entitled to a pension on the 17th of January, 1891, and has repeatedly applied for pension due to him from the 6th of August, 1891, to the 24th of February, 1892, but, failing to get any answer from the Admiralty, continued to serve on board H.M.S. Impérieuse until the 3rd of January, 1893, when he was pensioned; whether he will be granted his pension as from the 6th of August, 1891, to the 24th of February, 1892, the time during which he was unemployed, he having re-entered the Navy on the latter date in order to exist while the Admiralty considered his application for pension; and why his letters remained without answer?
(who replied) said: This case was carefully investigated in 1893, the result being that their Lordships allowed the man pay for the period 6th of August, 1891, to 23rd of February, 1892. This, of course, was more advantageous to the man than pension. A bill for the amount due (£33 10s.) was sent to H.M.S. President, in March, 1893, for delivery to Saxon, but was returned unpaid, as the man had been discharged to the shore and his address was unknown. As since that date no application was received in the Admiralty from the man, the money has not been paid over to him, but steps will now be taken to do this.
If the man's address is sent to the Admiralty, will the money be paid to him?
Certainly.
County Down Sea Fisheries
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the last Return relating to the Sea Fisheries of the United Kingdom, from which it appears that 266 tons of fish were in 1893 brought inland from Newcastle, County Down; whether, with the exception of Ardglass, which lies to the north-east of Dundrum Bay, on which Newcastle is situate, the quantity of fish sent inland from Newcastle last year was greater than that from any other fishing place in Ulster; whether he is aware that the Inspectors of Fisheries, in their Report for 1891, state that boats cannot get in or out of Newcastle Harbour without great risk and difficulty, and that the difficulty and danger have considerably increased since then; and whether, considering the number of lives already lost, the great risk to the fishermen still living there, and the wealth of fish in Dundrum Bay, he will send an engineer to inspect and report what, if anything, can be done in the matter?
I have no reason to question the statements in the first two paragraphs, though I am informed that the figures are for the Newcastle Coast Guard Division which includes Annalong, a much larger fishing port. The statement referred to in paragraph 3 is not that of the Inspectors of Fisheries, but, as I stated on the 21st of July last, is contained in a summary of Reports from Coast Guard officers, and is not ascribed to any one in particular. As I stated on the same date, there are no funds available for improving the harbour, and it could therefore only give rise to unfounded hopes if an engineer were sent down by the Board of Works. It appears to me that it is rather for the County Authorities to take action in the matter, if they see fit.
Assault on a County Court Bailiff at Pembryn
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any proceedings have yet been instituted against the men who assaulted Robert Lewis, the bailiff of the Newcastle Emlyn County Court, at Pembryn, on the 14th of March, and who he had stated were well known to the police; and, if not, why not; whether any notice of the sudden withdrawal of the police escort on the 16th of March was given by the Chief Constable to the bailiff till the actual morning of the 16th, when the bailiff had started on his duty; whether last week the Chief Constable refused to give Lewis an escort sufficient to protect his life, and in consequence no further attempts have been made to execute the 118th Order of the County Court still unexecuted; and whether he can take any steps to compel the Chief Constable of Cardiganshire to enforce the law?
1. Proceedings have been instituted by the bailiff. 2. Notice was given on the 16th of April not of immediate withdrawal, but that the escort would have to return to its station on the following night, the 17th. 3. The Chief Constable offered 10 men, to be under his own command, but the bailiff refused them. The Chief Constable considers such an escort adequate. 4. I have no reason to think that the Chief Constable is not taking the necessary steps to enforce the law.
Strokestown and Elphin Postal Arrangements
I beg to ask the Postmaster General if he is aware that great local dissatisfaction exists regarding the postal arrangements of Strokestown and Elphin, which are considerable country towns in the County of Roscommon; that the town of Strokes-town has got no benefit whatever from the accelerated mail service, because, though most of the correspondence is in the Dublin direction, the mail car proceeds in exactly the opposite route to Castlerea, thus losing two hours of time otherwise available for answering letters; and that Elphin has similar reason to complain of the existing defective arrangements; and will he, in deference to the strong local wishes on this subject, give his favourable consideration to a new arrangement by which the mail car shall leave Strokestown at 9 o'clock for the town of Roscommon, and the midday car from Longford to Strokestown be extended to Elphin; or, better still, a car run direct from Carrick-on-Shannon to that town?
The question of rearranging the postal service to these places has been more than once considered, but, there being already a considerable loss to the Revenue, no improvement has hitherto been found practicable, except at an additional outlay, which was not considered to be warranted. I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion of a service viâ Roscommon or Carrick-on-Shannon and let him know the result; but I wish to point out that, as the existing day mail from Longford to Strokestown works in close connection with the Dublin mail, the hon. Member is under a misapprehension in stating that Strokestown has derived no benefit whatever from the accelerated mail service.
intimated that he would forward to the right hon. Gentleman communications he had received on the subject.
The Zanzibar Protectorate
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Sultan of Zanzibar, in 1886, on the joint invitation of Great Britain and Germany, in adhering to the Berlin Act, specially reserved his fiscal rights under the first Article of that Act, and subsequently, in pursuance of that reservation, for a stipulated annual payment conceded the entire Customs Revenue so reserved of his territories within the British sphere of influence to a British Company; whether, acting on the advice of Her Majesty's Government subsequent to the declaration of a British Protectorate over his dominions, and to the exclusive advantage of that Protectorate if extended to the interior, the Sultan withdrew such reservation, on which the Company's contract of rent was based; whether any claim has been made against the Sultan in respect of the withdrawal above-mentioned, and whether it is correct, as stated in the Report issued to the shareholders of the Company on the 15th of February last, that the Company, in virtue of Article 7 of the Charter, sought the intervention of the Secretary of State on the 6th of October last, and again on the 16th of January 1893, and that the only reply so far has been a bare acknowledgment of those letters; whether the Directors of the Imperial British East Africa Company submitted an offer in June, 1893, to Her Majesty's Government for the re-absorption of the Company's concession and rights by the Sultanate; and whether Her Majesty's Government will inform the House, before the Uganda Debate takes place, of the terms of any arrangement come to with the Imperial British East Africa Company?
It is not possible to make an adequate statement on the points raised in the first three paragraphs of the hon. Member's question within the limits of an answer to a question. It is the case that the Company submitted some time ago an offer to Her Majesty's Government such as is described in the last paragraph but one, but it was not possible to discuss the proposal till a decision had been come to respecting the future occupation of territory which the Company had evacuated. I am not able to say whether the communications with the Company will be sufficiently ad- vanced to enable me to announce before the Debate that an arrangement had been come to.
German Prison-Made Goods
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that goods manufactured in German Prisons by prison labour at nominal wages are being exported to England, and sold in competition with English manufactures; whether he can obtain any information as to the amount and value of such importations, and their influence on the English trades affected; whether he can state the number of prisoners so employed in German prisons; and whether he will endeavour to obtain through the Foreign Office a Report on the character and extent of this competition?
We have been unable to obtain any evidence of the importation of goods manufactured in German prisons beyond the statements which have appeared in a trade newspaper; but steps are being taken to obtain through the Foreign Office all the information available on the subject.
The British East Africa Company
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state what proportion of the Customs Duties, referred to in the late Sir Gerald Portal's Report (page 33, paragraph 3) as accruing to the British East Africa Company, has been appropriated to the payment of rent to the Sultan of Zanzibar; and what other sources of revenue (tax or otherwise) have been or are available to the Company for the purposes of administration mentioned in that Report?
Her Majesty's Government cannot give information as to the financial arrangements or resources of the Company.
Runaway Slave Settlement on the Juba River
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the district of Gosha, lying on the right bank of the Juba River, which is occupied by an agricultural colony of runaway slaves numbering several thousand souls, forms part of the Protectorate transferred by Germany to Great Britain in 1890; whether the district in question is now part of the same Protectorate, or is included in the territory placed under the administration of the Sultan of Zanzibar along with Witu; and whether any, and if so what, measures have been taken since the territory was placed under the Sultan of Zanzibar to protect the people of Gosha from the lawless tribes of the country around, and to secure to them free access to the coast by the Juba River?
With reference to the first paragraph, it is understood that a large settlement, composed in a great measure of runaway slaves, exists in territory in the interior near the Juba. That territory did not form part of the protectorate transferred by Germany to Great Britain in 1890. With reference to paragraphs 2 and 3, it is not included in the Protectorate which has been placed under the administration of the Sultan of Zanzibar, who has, consequently, not taken measures in regard to it. When the territory is explored and access to it opened information will be obtained as to these natives of whom little is known at present.
Shipwreck on Filey Brigg
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the proceedings at an inquest held at Filey on the 13th of April to inquire into the deaths of certain persons at a shipwreck on Filey Brigg, when it was stated by the chief officer of the Coastguard that the bell buoy to warn vessels from this dangerous reef had been allowed to fall entirely out of order, and that there was no system of periodical inspection into its condition; and whether he will cause such a representation to be made to the Elder Brethren of the Trinity House who are responsible in the matter as will prevent this state of things in future?
I have forwarded to the Trinity House a communication made to me by the Yorkshire coroner in the case of loss of life owing to the stranding of the Chilian on Filey Brigg, and the Elder Brethren informs me that they have given instructions for another bell buoy to be placed in lieu of the present one.
Will they give instructions that it shall be looked after properly?
No doubt they will.
Free School Books in Scottish Schools
I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether in reply to an application by a parent for the use of books free of charge the head master of a Board school is justified in refusing the request, and in adding, "if your children don't get a proper supply of books they can't remain here"; and whether, considering the prevailing uncertainty on the subject, he will be good enough to state plainly what the rights of parents are (either by law or under the Rules of the Department) with respect to a free supply of school books?
At the same time, I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will state the Rules of the Scotch Education Department as to the right of children attending public schools to a free supply of books and stationery?
The reply quoted by the hon. Member is certainly not one which a teacher was justified in making on his own authority. If it represents a Rule laid down by a School Board, the Department would, in case of a reference to them, request an explanation, and would inquire into the circumstances under which such a Rule was imposed. If, in pursuance of such a Rule, children were excluded from a school, the legal point might easily be decided by a prosecution for non-attendance; and unless such prosecution were forthwith instituted, and the question thus decisively tested, the Department would not hold that the exclusion was justified under the Code, and would consequently refuse the grant. As I have already stated, the Department holds a proper supply of books (and I include in this stationery) to be a condition of efficiency, upon which payment of the Parliamentary grant depends; and also that a charge for the use of books is inconsistent with relief of fees . But it does not rest with the Department to give an authoritative ruling on legal points, other than those connected with administration which may arise under the Education Acts. Au authoritative decision on such points can only be given by a Court of Law. This answer applies to the question of the hon. Baronet the Member for the College Division of Glasgow.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is the case that in schools in which books are thus provided free, the children are allowed to take them home and use them in the preparation of home lessons?
I am informed that in rural districts in Scotland, and especially in the Highlands, it is the prevailing custom. The Department, in granting of refusing the Parliamentary grant, takes into consideration the provision of books in these schools. It cannot go further than that.
Indian Cantonment Regulations
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, with reference to (he Indian Cantonment Regulations, whether the Despatch from India, mentioned in one of the telegrams that were read to the House by the Under Secretary of State on the 7th of November last, has been received; and what action has been taken upon it?
The Despatch to which my right hon. Friend refers was duly received and most carefully considered by Lord Kimberley in Council. In his reply, which was sent on the 1st March last, he informed the Government of India that, in his opinion, the only effective method of preventing a recurrence of any practices inconsistent with their Orders and with the Resolutions passed by the House of Commons on the 5th of June, 1888, was to proceed by means of legislation. He requested them accordingly to undertake the necessary legislation as soon as possible, and indicated the form in which he wished this to be effected. Further, to avoid the possibility of any future misconception of Orders, he requested the Government of India to issue a Resolution explaining the policy of that legislation, and prohibiting all practices, as distinguished from Rules or Regulations, inconsistent with that policy.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has noticed the Return presented by the Secretary for War to this House in January last, showing the dreadful increase in contagious diseases in several of the Presidencies of India?
Yes, Sir; a question on that subject was answered last week by the Secretary for War, who stated that this Return was engaging the consideration of both of us. There are explanatory circumstances which I need not refer to now, but which must be taken into consideration in dealing with the Return.
Experimental Mobilisation of Equipment and Store DepôTs
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of ordering during the present year an experimental mobilisation of the equipment and store depôts of the First Army Corps at Aldershot, Warley, or Colchester; and whether he will also consider the possibility of mobilising during the present year one or more of the Army Medical Staff Corps bearer companies attached to the First Army Corps?
* : It is not considered advisable to have any special muster of the equipment of the First Army Corps; Reports arc periodically furnished, so that we are well aware of its condition. As regards the Medical Staff Corps, arrangements have been made to train this summer at Aldershot four field hospitals and four bearer companies, and one of each at the Curragh. These units will be on a war footing both as regards men and equipment, and, except in respect of the number of horses, the process will be as near an approach to a mobilisation as can be made under existing conditions.
Labourers' Cottages in the Cootehill Union
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board for Ireland have received the documents recently referred to by him from the Guardians of Coote-hill Union; whether the Local Govern- ment Board are now aware that three-fifths of the elected Guardians are in favour of promoting a scheme for cottages and allotments in their respective constituencies, and do not object to the expense being made a divisional charge; whether the attention of the Local Government Board has been drawn by labourers interested to Reports of the Board's proceedings on the 12th of January and the 23rd of February in a local newspaper; and whether the Local Government Board now propose to order an inquiry?
The documents referred to have been received by the Local Government Board. The papers do not contain the information required by the second paragraph of the question. The Board have received a newspaper report of the Guardians' proceedings on the 12th of January, but not of the proceedings on the second mentioned date. The Board did not receive until the 21st instant the observations of the solicitor acting for the labourers, and the question of holding an inquiry is now under consideration.
The Importation of Canadian Store Cattle
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether representations have been made to him by many agriculturists in the Eastern Counties, both of England and Scotland, as to the exceptionally healthy and profitable character of Canadian store cattle; and whether, in view of the necessity for farmers being able to make their arrangements for the coming season, he can now state the result of the representations made to him by the Dominion Government of Canada with regard to the slaughtering of all Canadian cattle at the ports where they are landed?
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, with a view to allowing cattle feeders to make arrangements for the coming season, he will now state what course he is prepared to take with regard to the restrictions at present in force on the importation of Canadian cattle?
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has received a copy of the resolution of the Norfolk Chamber of Agriculture, proposed by a veterinary surgeon and seconded by a large tenant farmer, stating that while extremely anxious to keep out all animals from the continent of Europe and from all countries where contagious diseases are likely to exist, they would heartily welcome the importation of Canadian store cattle, which have been found to be exceptionally healthy and profitable to the grazier; and whether he is prepared to allow the importation of such cattle for the benefit of graziers in the Eastern Counties of England?
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in the months of May and June last, the lungs of cattle landed in this country from Canada were forwarded to the Board of Agriculture for examination by the Inspectors of the ports, who believed them to be affected with contagious pleuro-pneumonia; whether in three of these cases well-defined and typical signs of pleuro-pneumonia were apparent, and they were pronounced by the experts of the Board to be infected with the disease; whether he is aware that it was stated in evidence before the Departmental Committee of 1888 that cases had been known of the development of the disease after no less a period than 15 months; and whether, under these circumstances, and considering the length of frontier between Canada and districts where the disease is known to exist, the present restrictions which the slaughter of Canadian cattle at the port of debarkation is required will be maintained?
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the long term of incubation of the disease of pleuro-pneumonia in cattle, and the great difficulty in enforcing quarantine along the extended frontier between the United States and Canada, he can assure the farmers of Great Britain that the precautions taken by the Canadian Government are sufficient to secure them from the risk of this disease being introduced into this country by cattle from the United States (where it is admittedly prevalent) passing through the Canadian ports?
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, as the result of inquiries with reference to the presence of cattle disease in the Dominion of Canada, he has any reason to believe that there is any difficulty in enforcing Quarantine Regulations as between the Dominion and the United States, or any laxity in enforcing those Regulations; and whether the only access for cattle to the grazing lands of the Dominion is from Montana by three trails only, all converging upon and under the supervision of the North-West Mounted Police?
Yes, Sir; I have received many representations from agriculturists in the Eastern Counties of Scotland as to the advantages attending the importation of Canadian store cattle, and I have also received the resolution to the same effect to which my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk refers in the question which stands in his name. Upon a most anxious review, however, of the whole sequence of events, I am forced, with much regret, to the conclusion that I should not be justified in restoring the privilege of free admission to Canadian cattle until I am in possession of the evidence which would be afforded by a further examination of the lungs of the animals slaughtered at the port of landing. The examination will not be of a protracted character, and if the result confirm the representations made to me concerning the absence of pleuro-pneumonia in Canada, and no adverse circumstances arise, I should then, I consider, be bound to dispense with slaughter at the port, although some temporary Regulations regarding the movement of animals after landing would probably be requisite, if confidence in the safety of the trade is to be restored. With regard to the question addressed to me by the hon. Member for County Down, I would say that the precautions taken by the Canadian Government to prevent the introduction of diseased animals into the Dominion from the United States were very materially strengthened early last year, as the hon. Member will see from No. 16 of the printed Papers on the subject; and if it were only necessary for me to consider the question of the admission of Canadian animals from this point of view, I should not hesitate to conclude that reasonable security against the introduction of diseased animals into Great Britain from Canada is afforded at the present time. What I have already said will afford a reply to the questions of my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardineshire, and the hon. Member for West Clare; and with regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Staffordshire, I would say that the facts and Regulations as to the admission of cattle from Canada into the United States are fully explained in a Report of the Canadian Privy Council included in the further Papers on this subject which I propose to lay on the Table forthwith.
Arising out of that answer I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who says that he proposes to institute an examination which is not to be of a protracted character, when that examination will begin, and how long the period of examination will continue; and if he decides to re-admit Canadian cattle without requiring slaughter at the port of debarcation, will he give such notice of his intention as will enable Parliament to express an opinion before the decision is finally adopted?
With regard to the period of examination, that very materially depends upon the number of animals coming in from Canada. With regard to giving notice, I shall follow the usual course.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. When will the examination commence?
As a matter of fact, examinations are always going on. This is, however, a special examination, and it will begin as soon as the bulk of the animals begin to come in.
I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether contagious pleuro-pneumonia can be detected with certainty in the living animal; what is the longest known period of incubation of the disease; whether the disease has existed recently in Canada, and does it now exist in the United States?
Has the right hon. Gentleman received a resolution from the Central Chamber of Agriculture stating that the time has come when the introduction of live cattle into this country should not be permitted, except on very special conditions, without the slaughter of the animals at the port of debarcation?
I have received the resolution, and I also received a deputation from the same body, to which I gave a reply.
May I ask whether, in the examination of these animals, a representative of the Canadian Government will be allowed to take part?
The usual course will be followed.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my questions. If he has any objection to doing so I will put them down.
The hon. Member will find all the information he requires in the Papers to be laid on the Table of the House, and which I hope will be circulated among hon. Members in the course of next week.
Evictions on Lord Dillon's Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the case of Patrick Webb, of Loughlin, recently evicted on Lord Dillon's estate; is be aware that 10 years ago Patrick Webb bought the interest of the outgoing tenant in the holding from which he has now been evicted, and, in addition to the price to the tenant, paid to the landlord nine years of arrears of rent then due on the said holding; that to this Patrick Webb further spent £500 in buildings and improvements on the holding with the full approval of the landlord, and that no rent was due to Lord Dillon at the date of the eviction, but that Patrick Webb was evicted for over-holding on the expiration of a 99 years' lease, the Laud Commission, in spite of the protest of one of its members, refusing to fix a fair rent on the ground that the holding was residential in its character, under the Land Act of 1881, because the house was situate in a village of less than 140 inhabitants; and will he afford such facilities as the progress of public business will permit to render such cases impossible in the future?
I am informed that it is not the case that Webb has been evicted. An ejectment decree for overholding possession has, it is true, been obtained against him, but this has not yet been executed pending the result of legal proceedings taken by Webb against his landlord. With regard to the refusal of the Land Commission to fix a fair rent on the holding, I am informed that the ground on which the application was dismissed was that the holding was not an agricultural one. The ease was re-heard by Land Commissioners in May, 1893, when the decision of the Sub-Commission was affirmed. Subsequently, the Commissioners gave liberty to the tenant to appeal to the Court of Appeal, but he appears to have taken no steps to prosecute the appeal.
Report of the Gold and Silver Commission
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that for a considerable time no copies of the Report of the Gold and Silver Commission have been obtainable, and that constant applications for it are being made both here and abroad, and whether, under these circumstances, he will give instructions for the Report to be reprinted: and whether it would be possible in such reprint to add a complete index of the valuable papers and tables appended to the Report, similar to that which appears at the end of the Report of the Indian Currency Committee?
I am informed that the first Report is now out of print, and the second almost out of print; but there is still a considerable stock of the final Report and its Appendices, which form the most interesting part of the volumes issued by the Commission. I doubt whether there is any very considerable demand for the first two volumes, which consist entirely of the "evidence" of witnesses; but, if any large demand arises, the question of reprinting shall be re-considered.
Is it not possible to provide a complete index?
I should like to consider that question.
Assize Arrangements
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if Her Majesty's Judges have yet arrived at any understanding as to the proper course to be adopted by them at Assizes in reference to the trial of prisoners committed to the Sessions; and whether he can now issue any definite statement for the guidance of Magistrates in carrying out the provisions of the Assizes Relief Act?
The Lord Chancellor informs me that he has no information on the subject except what appears from the letter of the Lord Chief Justice of the 16th of February stating the view of himself and the great majority of the Judges; nor has he any authority over any Judge who may act on a different view. As to issuing any statement for the guidance of Magistrates, I have done all that it is in my power to do by the Circular Letter issued from the Home Office of January 8 last.
I shall have to call attention to the subject on the Estimates.
Free Education at Atherton, Lancashire
I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that a demand has lately been made at Atherton, Lancashire, for free education; and where there is a demand for free education in any school district and such demand may be met by the transference of scholars from one school to another, whether the burden of supplying places should be apportioned to any one particular school provided that the scholars can obtain such education within a reasonable distance?
Claims for free education for between 1,600 and 1,700 children have been made at Atherton, and are being dealt with in the usual way. In order that such claims may be met, the Department require that a free place shall be provided for each child claiming it at some school within a reasonable and convenient distance of the child's home.
In a district not under a School Board, the supply of such free places at the various schools which have the right to charge fees is a matter within the discretion of the managers. The Department cannot compel any such school to provide any free places at all; but if the free places claimed are not supplied by voluntary arrangement, it becomes the duty of the Department to order the formation of a School Board to supply the free places required.
Uganda
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the case, as stated in Sir Gerald Portal's Report (page 33, paragraph 5), that the Imperial British East Africa Company made Treaties in Uganda and the neigbbouring countries promising protection in return for certain commercial advantages; if so, are such Treaties a violation of Clause 16 of the Company's Charter, prohibiting any monopoly of trade; whether, in accordance with Clause 3 of the Charter, the Treaties in question have received the approval of Her Majesty's Secretary of State; and whether Copies of the Treaties will be laid upon the Table of the House before the Debate on Uganda?
(who replied) said: I must ask to be allowed to postpone any statement on this question until the Debate comes on.
Stamp Deeds
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state the number of offices in England in which instruments and counterparts can be stamped?
The die denoting that the full and proper duty has been paid on the original deeds is only impressed in the London, Edinburgh, and Dublin stamp offices. Belfast already enjoys the utmost facilities that have been given to Liverpool, Manchester, and Bristol, and to those places only, with respect to the transmission of counterparts to the central office.
Killarney Union
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is true, as stated by the Local Government Inspector, that whilst the liabilities of the Killarney Union amount to £5,652, the Guardians have only £565 to their credit in the bank; whether unpaid cheques to the amount of £2,183 have been issued, and that bills amounting to £1,590 are due; and if, in view of the serious financial state of the Union, he will dismiss the Guardians and appoint Vice Guardians?
The figures given in the question represent with substantial accuracy the financial condition of this Union on the 11th inst., when the Inspector made his statement to the Guardians, which was duly reported in the public Press. As regards the conclusion of the question, I can only say at present that the matter is engaging my careful consideration.
Did not a similar state of affairs prevail some time ago in the Tralee Union?
It is quite true that in consequence of the financial condition of the Tralee Union the elected Guardians were suspended and Vice Guardians appointed, and the result has been satisfactory.
I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is anything very extraordinary in an excess of the liabilities over the assets at a time when the proceeds of the old rate are exhausted, and the collection of the new rate began?
There is nothing extraordinary in the matter as I understand, and I hope the Killarney Guardians will soon be able to put themselves in order.
Is it not a fact that the elected Guardians are now administering in Tralee Union?
Yes, it is true that the Vice Guardians have done their work, and that the elected Guardians are now doing duty.
Is it not a fact that the Vice Guardians are paid Guardians; if so, what is their salary, and does the right hon. Gentleman consider that it tends to lighten the deficit by appointing Vice Guardians, who are paid a salary, thereby putting an additional burden on the ratepayers?
Is it usual for these Unions to issue cheques for £2,000 which are afterwards dishonoured by the bank?
I am afraid that such proceedings are not entirely unusual.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question?
I cannot say offhand what are the salaries of the Vice Guardians. It appears that in some cases they have reduced the debt.
Women in Indian Coal Mines
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he has received any Report from the Inspector relating to the employment of women in coal mines in India; and, if not, when we may expect it?
The Inspector's Report upon Coal Mines has not yet been received. The Government of India hope to receive his first Report in July next, and they will send it home soon after.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the meantime, and pending the presentation of the Report, any steps will be taken to put a stop to the employment of women underground in coal mines?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Galway Extra Police Force
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the number of extra police in the County of Galway in connection with the Clanricarde estate in 1893, compared with the year 1885, and the cost of maintaining same; and if he will state the number and cost of extra police on the estate since 1885?
In 1885 the number of extra police employed in connection with this estate was four, at an annual cost of £276. In December, 1893, the number so employed was 29, and the annual cost £1,999. Between 1885 and the 1st of January last the number of extra police employed on the estate averaged 23, at a total cost, as near as can be estimated, of £14,520.
Canadian Tea Duties
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state what the intentions of the Canadian Government are with reference to the alteration of the Tea Duties; whether teas blended in bond in Great Britain will be subject to any and what duty in the new tariff; and whether the Canadian Government can legally differentiate against this country and home labour in favour of China and other tea-exporting countries.
May I at the same time put to the hon. Gentleman a question on the same subject which I have had on the Paper on two days previously, but which has unfortunately not appeared to-day?
I am much obliged to my hon. Friends for having postponed these questions. We received on Saturday the following telegram explanatory of the proposal in regard to tea in the new Canadian tariff:—
"Duties proposed in Canadian House of Commons as to tea and coffee are expressed in following extract from tariff. Extract begins:' Tea and green coffee imported directly from the country of growth and production, free. This item shall include tea and coffee purchased in bond in any country where tea and coffee are subject to Customs Duties, provided there be satisfactory proof that the tea or coffee so purchased in bond is such as might be entered for home consumption in the country where the same is purchased.' Extract ends. The above item is, of course, subject to amendment by the Canadian Parliament. Despatch follows by mail."
I trust that this explanation will be satisfactory to my hon. Friends and to the trade.
Irish Church Surplus Funds
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will lay upon the Table a Return showing whether there is an available balance of securities remaining among the Irish Church Surplus Funds sufficient to guarantee a Treasury loan; and, if so, to what amount of loan; and, if he will show in detail all the liabilities which have been imposed on the Irish Church Surplus Funds?
A Return is being prepared, and I hope to be able to lay it on the Table in a few days.
In the form I ask?
Yes.
Uganda
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the indefinite postponement of the Debate on the Settlement of Uganda, he can now make a further statement as to the intention of the Government as to the exact area over which Imperial administration is to prevail, as to the railway, and means of communication with Uganda suggested by Sir G. Portal's Report, and as to the abolition of the legal status of slavery in Zanzibar?
In answer to this and other questions, I have to say that it is not possible to deal with these matters in the compass of an answer to a question, and I must reserve the explanations upon them until the Debate, when a full statement will be made on this and other points.
I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will be good enough to consider whether it would not make the discussion much more valuable if the House had some intimation beforehand as to the decision of the Government with regard to the main points of interest connected with the subject?
I will tell the right hon. Gentleman at once what our position is. As soon as ever we can make arrangements after the conclusion of the Debate on the Motion for the appointment of the Scotch Grand Committee, I will endeavour to fix the Debate on Uganda on as early a day as possible, when I will make a statement on the subject.
When the Debate comes on, and after the statement has been made by the right hon. Gentleman, will the right hon. Gentleman allow the Debate to be adjourned in order to enable the House to consider that statement?
I would rather postpone my answer to that question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman place the House in possession of the facts of what the Government proposed to do with the money asked for in the Estimate? That Estimate refers to particulars, but gives none. Do the Government propose in the Estimate to take any sum for improved communication either by railway or road, or the tracts referred to in the Report, which are often circuitous because they are uncleared and go through swamps?
The Vote is a formal one intended for the purpose of raising a discussion only, and does not profess to give particulars at all.
The Estimate says there are particulars.
No definite statement as to details can conveniently be made at the present time.
The Importation of German Prison-Made Goods
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received any communication from the Board of Trade with reference to the importation into the United Kingdom of German prison-made goods; and what steps, if any, have been taken in the matter; and if the Secretary of State will cause inquiries to be made concerning this traffic of Her Majesty's Consuls in Germany, and particularly of those in Berlin and Cologne?
A communication has been received, and Her Majesty's Ambassador in Germany is being instructed to furnish a general Report on the subject.
When will the Report be laid upon the Table of the House?
I cannot exactly say.
The Budget and the Naval Defence Fund
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty if the £289,000, described by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as money which has been paid over to the Naval Defence Account in excess of the authorised expenditure of £10,000,000, is the proceeds of advances made by the Treasury previous to the commencement of the present financial year from the Consolidated Fund, under Section 2 of "The Naval Defence Act, 1889"; and, if not, from what source, and under what authority, has this money been obtained?
(who replied) said: The origin of the transaction is that money was wanted and was advanced by the Treasury under the Naval Defence Act.
Is not the result of the transaction this: that the National Debt has been increased by the sum of £289,000 in order that the Revenue for that year might apparently be increased by that amount, although that amount does not properly belong to the Revenue for that year?
* : This is one of the beautiful conundrums in finance which arise out of the National Defence Act. It would take anybody two days to understand how the matter arose, and half a day for him to explain the matter. It arose in this way: £3,146,000 was borrowed from the Treasury on this account two years ago under the Statute, and the Treasury were bound this last year to pay over £1,429,000, which was more than was wanted, and the consequence is that the money, not being required to pay off the loan, is available to be restored to the Exchequer. I do not know whether that is intelligible to anybody, as it is barely intelligible to me.
I beg to give notice that I shall oppose the Resolution, and I think that I shall be able in a few minutes to make it clear to the House what is the nature of the transaction.
Reported Disturbance in Bechuanaland
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give any further information as to a reported attack by Namaques on Bechuanas, resulting in the slaughter of many natives, men, women, and children, and also of some whites; and whether or no these Namaques belong to the German sphere of influence or protectorate?
* : The Secretary of State is inquiring into the matter, about which we have no official information.
Employment for Ex-Soldiers
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state what is the number of non-commissioned officers and men at home stations employed on other than strictly military duties, and struck off the ordinary duty roster; whether, at the date of the Report of the Wantage Committee, they numbered no less than 13,000; and whether the practice as to employed men, described by Sir A. Haliburton as a legacy from the long service system, has been modified; and, if so, in what manner, since the Wantage Committee reported two years ago?
* : Proposals dealing with this subject are now under consideration. The number of soldiers employed on duties which are not strictly military cannot be stated without a reference to the General Officers commanding in the several districts.
But is it not a fact that at the date of the Report of the Wantage Committee the number was 13,000?
That may have been so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the desirability of employing first-class Army Reserve men?
The whole question is under consideration.
Kenmare Poor Law Guardians' Election
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have yet held an inquiry into the proceedings in connection with the election of Poor Law Guardians in the Kenmare Union; and whether the alleged irregular and illegal conduct of the chairman, on the occasion of the election of chairman, will also be inquired into?
The Board on the 16th instant instructed their Inspector to hold a sworn inquiry into this matter, and the investigation will take place at the earliest possible date. The matter referred to in the second paragraph has already formed the subject of inquiry by the Local Government Board, who do not think that it calls for further interference on their part.
New Parish Boundaries
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board what will be the latest possible date for the arrangement of the boundaries under "The Local Government Act, 1894," if the Government proposals for deferring the date of the elections of Parish and District Councils are adopted?
It will be seen from Section 84 (3) (b) of the Local Government Act, 1894, that the 30th of August in the present year is the date before which the re-arrangement of boundaries must be completed. The Bill before the House for accelerating the registration makes no alteration in this respect.
Children in London Prisons
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether is attention has been called to a statement published in the Press by Mr. William Wheatley, that on the 19th instant he found two children undergoing a sentence of five days' imprisonment in Pentonville Prison, and that one of the children said he would be 11 next birthday, but did not look more than eight, and the other stated that he would be 13 next birthday, but did not look more than nine; for what offence, from what Court, and by what Magistrate were these children committed; and whether the committal to prison was reported to the Home Office?
The boys referred to were sentenced at the Marlborough Street Police Court by Mr. Hannay to a fine of 5s., or five days' imprisonment, for throwing bricks and stones from a partly demolished building in Nassau Street, at passengers in the street, about which practice many complaints had been made to the police. There were four boys in all; one over 14 was remanded for a week, and the three others were fined 5s. each or five days. Only one of the three fines was paid; the parents of two of the boys, Baker and Smith, wishing them to be taught a lesson, refused to pay the fines, saying that they could do nothing with their boys. The Governor of Pentonville informs me that the boys were treated in the ordinary way in cells set apart for juveniles. The matter was reported to the Home Office.
London Prison Accommodation
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now able to state what questions (in addition to the accommodation in London prisons) will be referred to the proposed Departmental Committee of Inquiry into our prison system?
No; I am not at present in a position to give my hon. Friend the information he asks.
Clogher Valley Tramway
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that engine-drivers in the employment of the Clogher Valley Tramway Company are obliged to work 12 hours daily, and occasionally 17 hours a day; and that on a recent occasion an engine-driver worked on the line for 36 hours without rest; and will he have inquiry made into the conditions and hours of labour of engine-drivers, milesmen, and lamp-lighters in the employ of this Company?
I have made inquiry, and the Company inform the Board of Trade that their engine-drivers work 60 hours per week of six days; that there are no Sunday trains; they add that in case of breakdown the hours may have been longer, but they do not admit the long hours referred to by the hon. Member.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire?
I have made inquiries, and I have given the hon. Member the result. If the hon. Member has particulars of any specific cases, and will lay them before me, I will inquire further.
Vehicular Lighting at Night-Time
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a County Council has power to pass a bye-law requiring every vehicle drawn by any animal in that county between one hour after sunset and one hour before sunrise to have a lighted lamp attached to that vehicle?
The Secretary of State has held that such a bye-law may be made under Section 16 of the Local Government Act, 1888, provided its terms are reasonable. The matter is one which has been considered to fall within the words "good rule and government" of a county. Monmouthshire is a county where such a bye-law is in force.
Salmon Fishing in the River Slaney
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lard Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the rod fishermen are allowed the privilege of fishing for salmon in the River Slaney six weeks previous to the time alloted to the net fishermen; whether a like custom is prevalent on all the rivers in Ireland where salmon are taken; and whether he can take any steps to assimilate the times for the beginning of net and rod fishing?
I understand the fact is as stated in the first paragraph. The difference between the dates on which net fishing and angling commence depends on local circumstances, and the Inspectors of Fisheries are of opinion that the interests of the salmon fisheries would not admit of the assimilation of dates for the commencement of net and rod fishing.
The Revised Education Code
I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education when the Revised Code relating to evening schools will be printed and circulated; and when the same will come into operation?
The Evening School Code will be printed and circulated very shortly. It contains a provision making it apply to all schools, the grants to which fall due after the 30th of April, 1894, which is the end of the school-year for evening schools; practically, therefore, it affects but few schools until they begin their new session next winter. I will undertake that plenty of time shall be given for the consideration of the few changes which have been made from last year's Code.
When will the Code become law?
Practically it will not take effect until next autumn.
But when will it become law?
It was laid on the Table at the end of last month. It becomes law a month from the date of so laying it.
Phœnix Park Grazings
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Board of Works intend to re-establish the old system of letting the grazing in Phoenix Park to different owners of cattle, now that the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council have stated in reply to the Dublin Cowkeepers' Association that there was no hindrance to their cattle being grazed upon the park?
In consequence of the withdrawal by the Veterinary Department of the objection to the admission of grazing cattle to the Phoenix Park the Board of Works decided to invite tenders for the grazing of the park by cattle the property of one owner, and that, if no such tender were made, applications from owners irrespective of numbers should be received. No tenders came in, and accordingly the old practice is being reverted to.
Birkenhead Guardians and the National Dock Labourers' Union
On behalf of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the refusal of the medical officer of the Birkenhead Board of Guardians to grant sick certificates to members of the National Dock Labourers' Union who were unable to pay for the same, with the result that they are deprived of the sick allowance from that organisation; and whether medical officers of such Boards are justified in their refusal to grant such certificates?
I am informed by the Guardians of the Birkenhead Union that application was made to them by the Branch Secretary of the Dock Labourers' Union to direct the medical officer of the workhouse to give to members of that organisation who were in the workhouse certificates of illness, not for the purpose of obtaining sick pay but to keep the members in burial benefit. The Guardians were of opinion that it formed no part of the duty of the medical officer of the workhouse to give these certificates, and the Local Government Board concur in the view of the Guardians that there is no legal obligation attaching to the medical officer in this matter.
Taxes on Land Values
I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government will consent to the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire and report as to the most efficacious method of levying a tax on land values?
May I ask whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware that a vast amount of evidence on the subject of ground values was taken during the late Parliament by the Town Holdings Committee?
Yes. I was going to refer to the fact that the Town Holdings Committee have already collected a large amount of evidence on the subject. I can hardly understand what my hon. Friend wants to know.
I wish an inquiry into the mode of levying the tax. That has not been gone into.
The New Estate Duty
I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will lay upon the Table a Return of some few typical estates, showing what would be the average payments under the head of the existing Succession Duty, and what he anticipates would be the payments under the new Estate Duty?
I do not think I can at present undertake to lay before the House the particulars asked for. When the Bill is before the House the hon. Member and his friends will, with the information then supplied, have no difficulty in forming their own conclusions.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication of the interpretation the Government will place on the words "marketable value," and the method in which such value will be arrived at?
I am afraid I can add nothing to my answer.
Uganda
I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the details of the proposed arrangements for the Protectorate of Uganda could be given in answer to a question, in order to allay the anxiety on the subject?
That question I have already answered.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea when the Debate will be taken?
I told the hon. Gentleman it would be taken when we had got the Scotch business out of the House.
Mr. Deeney, J.P
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it has been brought to his knowledge that Mr. Deeney, of Rathmullen, in the County of Donegal, who was appointed to the Commission of the Peace for County Donegal in January, 1893, was the holder of a retail licence for the sale of intoxicating liquors in Rathmullen, and that he transferred his licence to his wife; and whether, under these circumstances, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland proposes to take any steps to revoke such appointment?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the question, may I ask whether the late Conservative Government did not appoint persons to the Commission of the Peace for the Counties of Derry and Donegal who then held, and still do, common retail public-house licences; whether Mr. Deeney gave a transfer of his hotel spirit licence previously to his appointment to the Commission of the Peace; whether from the date of his appointment any fault has been found with him in the discharge of his Magisterial duties; and whether the Lord Chancellor of Ireland proposes to take any steps to revoke the appointment of those Magistrates who at present hold retail licences in County Derry and County Donegal?
It is a fact that the late Government did appoint holders of licences to the Commission of the Peace. In answer to the question on the Paper, the appointment referred to was made on the recommendation of the Lord Lieutenant of the County, and before acting on the recommendation the Lord Chancellor required Mr. Deeney to give an undertaking to transfer his licensed business. The Magistrates at Quarter Sessions in the county granted the licence. Owing to the lapse of time that had taken place the Lord Chancellor did not propose interfering with the matter now; and as the hon. Member will see, if such a course were taken, the Lord Chancellor would be bound to cancel similar appointments which were made by his predecessor in Office.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of testing the legality of these licences under the circumstances?
I will lay the point before the Lord Chancellor.
The Newfoundland Ministerial Crisis
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Report cabled from St. John's, Newfoundland, which appeared in The Daily News and other morning papers of this day, to the effect that£
"The Legislature of Newfoundland has been further prorogued until the 23rd of May "
is correct; whether the Legislature was so further prorogued by the Governor acting under instructions from Her Majesty's Government; and whether Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the Table all correspondence which has passed, between the Governor of Newfoundland and Her Majesty's Government relating to a demand for dissolution made by the late Government of Newfoundland, of which Sir William Whiteway was Premier?
The. Legislature of Newfoundland has been prorogued by the Governor, acting on the advice of his responsible advisers, until May 23. I can make no promise as to what, if any, portion of the correspondence in regard to this Ministerial crisis can be presented to Parliament; but I say at once that the telegraphic correspondence that has passed between Her Majesty's Government and the Governor of Newfound- land has been necessarily of a highly confidential character, and, of course, will not be published.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman answer more definitely that part of my question as to whether the Legislature was further prorogued by the Governor under instructions from Her Majesty's Government?
I have said that the Governor acted on the advice of his responsible advisers.
The Glenlara Murder, Co. Cork
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant whether he can give any information as to the reported murder of a caretaker in North Cork; whether anyone has been arrested for the murder; and, if not, whether he will use all the powers conferred upon him by the Crimes Act in order to detect the murderer?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this terrible outrage was denounced vigorously from all the altars in the neighbourhood yesterday; that a strong feeling of public indignation has been aroused in the locality, and that to-day the shops in Newmarket are shuttered?
It is quite true that the murder was denounced yesterday from all the altars in the district, and that to-day the town of Newmarket bears signs of general mourning. I regret to say that the account in the morning papers is substantially correct£ that Donovan was brutally attacked on the morning of Saturday last by two men, and was beaten about the head with the stock of a gun. He then scrambled back to his room, and, about three or four hours afterwards, died. Of course, it is not desirable that I should state in any form what clue the police have, nor what steps they are taking in regard to the outrage. As to the question about the Crimes Act, I do not think that applies.
Was Donovan under police protection at the time of the murder?
He was, to the extent of being under protection by police patrol, which frequently passed his farm.
The right hon. Gentleman says the man was murdered by being beaten about the head with the stock of a gun. Is it true, as reported in some of the papers, that he was also shot?
My report is that he was beaten on the head with a gun as he lay in bed, and afterwards dragged into the yard and beaten again. I have no information as to his having been shot.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is one of those cases in relation to an evicted farm where an evicted tenant would be restored under the Evicted Tenants' Bill?
[No answer was given.]
May I ask whether, until last Sunday, there had been any agrarian murder in the district for 23 mouths, the period of the right hon. Gentleman's administration in Ireland?
Was there not a deplorable outrage only last week?
* : Order, order! The last two questions are entirely outside the question upon the Paper.
Orders of the Day
Ways and Means
Committee
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
* : I have understood that it will be for the convenience of the House to deal in the following manner with these Resolutions. I understand that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite desire to have some further explanation of the first Resolution, but that, having had that explanation, they desire that the discussion upon it should be postponed until to-morrow. I will, therefore, now move formally the first Resolution, relating to the Estate Duty, and I will then renew it again to-morrow. I may point out to the Committee that it is of the greatest consequence that the Bill should be brought forward as well as the Income Tax Resolutions, so that there should be authority from the House to levy the Income Tax at the proposed increased rate. That being done, to- morrow will be free for the discussion on the Estate Duty. I do not know that I can add very much to the statement I have already made. It is impossible to understand the question until you have before you the clauses which deal in detail with this matter, and when you have seen the Bill you will find that the plans of the Government are comparatively simple. There is a good deal in the machinery clauses which cannot be avoided in cases of this kind; but the enacting clause provides that the existing Probate, Account, Estate, and additional Succession Duties shall cease to exist, and in their place there will be a new Estate Duty, levied upon the principal value of all property which passes on the death of the deceased, whether real or personal, settled or unsettled, and the principal value having been taken, the duty will be graduated according to the scale set forth in the Resolution. Property passing on the death of the deceased may be of different kinds. Of course, I am not now speaking of realty and personalty. The first property which will be dealt with is property of which the deceased is competent at the time of his death to dispose. That includes for the first time foreign property belonging to persons domiciled in the United Kingdom. Such property is at present subject to Legacy Duty. The second class of property dealt with under the present tax is properly which the deceased has himself settled in his lifetime £that is to say, property not at his disposal at the time of his death. It will also include all those classes of gifts which are now taxable under the Account Duty such as donatio mortis causâ £voluntary gifts made within 12 months of death, life insurances, and other things now chargeable under the Account Duty. At present the Account Duty applies only to voluntary settlements. Hereafter the principle of the Account Duty will be applied to all settlements, whether voluntary or for consideration. I come to another class of property in which, by the disposition of some other person, the deceased had only a life interest£that is to say, a. settlement made by A upon B, but which property passes from B's family upon B's death. That property will pay Estate Duty, but it will be treated for the purposes of graduating the duty in a different manner from property settled by the deceased himself. These are the three main classes of property which will become the subject of the proposed Estate Duty, and all these several kinds of property, taken upon their principal value, will be treated as one estate for the purpose of determining the graduated rate. That is to say, if a man has £50,000 in personalty and £50,000 in realty, settled or unsettled, they will be put together and treated as one estate for the determination of the graduated rate to be placed upon them, except when the property, settled by the disposition of some other person than the deceased, passes away from the descendants or the family of the deceased to some other person, in which case it will not be valued with his own property for the purposes of graduation. Therefore, that £100,000 will under those circumstances pay the Estate Duty at the rate belonging to £100,000, but will not pay more, because there may be another £50,000 passing away from the deceased at his death, but not to his own family.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether by "family" he means lineal descendants?
I will give further details on that point to-morrow. We now come to the question of settlement, which is the most difficult matter in the Bill. A settlement covers several lives, but at present Probate Duty is paid only once on property settled by will. The question we have to consider is this: What principle shall we apply to settlements by will or otherwise? Will you allow one payment to cover settlement, or will you take, as in cases where there are no settlements, full payment on every death? Take the case of property in connection with which there is no settlement. The property goes to A, and he pays full duty; it then goes to B, his brother, and he pays full duty; then it goes by will to C, and he pays full duty likewise. In this case A, B, and C have free disposal of the property, whereas if the property were settled each would only have a life interest. Therefore, after much reflection, I have come to the conclusion that we ought to follow the principle now in force under the Probate Duty, and allow one payment to cover the settlement. Some people think that is a very great sacrifice, because of the number of lives in the settlement. You may have a number of lives, but you can only have one generation. It may well be that a young life in free testacy may cover a longer period than all the lives in the settlement, and therefore it is not certain that in every case n settlement will cover more than a single life, but on the whole and on the average there might be a loss. We cannot estimate exactly what that loss will be, but, following the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, we propose, as I mentioned in my Budget statement, that an additional 1 per cent, shall be placed upon settlements, to cover the average loss arising through one of those circumstances. If this percentage is found to be too much it will be discontinued; if it is found to be too little, it may be increased. A question has been suggested to me by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean: "What are you going to do in cases where Probate Duty has been paid upon a death occurring before the passing of the Bill? "We have considered it only fair to allow that duty to cover the settlement, and not to require payment of the new Estate Duty in respect of it. Now, I should like to say a word or two upon small estates under £1,000. That is a very material question under this Bill. At present these estates in the case of personalty pay both Probate and Legacy Duty. In the case of realty they pay only Succession Duty. In future they will only pay Estate Duty, and, generally speaking, the charge on them will be less than it is at present. I need not repeat what I have already said on that matter, I went into it in my Budget speech. I have been asked as to the mode of valuation. I would remind all hon. Gentlemen who must be familiar with the practice in these matters that the first valuer in all these matters is the successor himself. I know the ordinary practice, having had to do with a great many deeds of administration£ because when a man has the misfortune to belong to the Bar his family always insist on making him executor and trustee, and therefore he becomes familiar with the administration of estates. In 99 cases out of 100 what happens is this: The executor sends for the most respectable and well-known surveyor in the neighbourhood and tells him to value the property. If it is a question of plate, he sends for the most respected and eminent silversmith in London, and in the case of jewels he does the same thing; and I can say from my knowledge and from information received from the Inland Revenue that in the far greater number of cases the valuation is accepted, unless there is some reason to believe that it is outrageously inadequate and improper. That is the first system of valuation. People are in most cases their own valuers.
What about works of art?
I know that works of art, when valued to the nation, are very often valued at a very high price indeed, and I should be extremely happy if works of art were always valued on that scale. I believe the result to the Exchequer would be far greater than it is at the present time. I say the parties themselves are, generally speaking, the first valuers. It is not the interest or the policy of the Department to extract the uttermost farthing, and they do not do so. Any moderate and fair valuation is taken and accepted by the Inland Revenue. There are cases which would astonish the Committee if I told them the valuation that has been made. I would ask the Committee to consider the disadvantage of what some people, I know, favour, and that is establishing a fixed rule of valuation. In the first place, under the existing system, especially with regard to land, the annual value is taken. The proposal of the Government is that the Commissioners shall take methods, subject to appeal to the Court, as they think best to ascertain the value. They will not exclude annual value as one of the methods for arriving at principal value; but I think that the more discretion that is left to the Commissioners as to the method of ascertaining the value of any commodity the wiser will it be. One hears some people talk as if there were difficulties in ascertaining principal value. Principal value was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite; and for five years the Estate Duty has been paid on principal value in certain cases, and there has been no difficulty whatever. Principal value has for a long time been the system of valuation in connection with leaseholds, and I would ask gentlemen who say there is great difficulty in ascertaining the principal value of freeholds why there should be more difficulty in their case than in the case of leaseholds? The right hon. Gentleman opposite was driven into arriving at principal value by capitalising the rent on certain tables; but I would point out to gentlemen interested in the land that that is a principle extremely to the disadvantage of properties falling in value and to the advantage of properties rising in value. Therefore it is the worst of all principles to be adopted. In future the charge will be upon the capital value, not on the capitalised rent, and will therefore be juster as between different kinds of landed property than it is at present. Properties of great prospective value will pay on a much larger figure, and properties with a less bright future may, in a good many cases, pay on a lower figure than they do at present. Any attempt to lay down a hard-and-fast principle of valuation would in my opinion be impracticable. It would lead to injustice to properties which have the poorest outlook. Any fixed number of years' purchase, not too low for the State to accept, would be far too high for these distressed properties to bear. But the State ought not to accept 20 or 24 years' purchase on property like that near London. It is worth more. Why should you fix too low a standard on the most valuable property, and consequently oppress properties less able to bear it? Surely it is far better to endeavour in each case to assess the tax upon the value which really pertains to the property. I venture to ask the Committee to consider this matter, because I know it occupies a great deal of attention, especially amongst those interested in land. I ask the House to consider what I have said in regard to leaseholds and the Estate Duty, and to bear in mind that where this has been in practical operation there has been no real ground of complaint. Now, I pass to another subject, also of great interest to the owners of real property, and that is how the money is to be raised. First of all, as I have said already, I have reserved the eight years' instalments in order not to force a sale. I have taken the length of time given by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. But the money will have to be raised in some form or another if it is not paid off in these yearly instalments. The life tenant will have power to charge the estate. He will have power in respect of this duty to make a mortgage on the estate, and if he prefers to pay it out of his pocket, he will himself be in the position of a mortgagee. It is said, "How are you to borrow money at all in the case of heavily mortgaged estates?" People do not bear in mind that the charge will only be on what remains after you have deducted the mortgage. That will be the margin and the residue upon which the charge, will be made.
* : Will the charge take precedence of existing mortgages?
Existing mortgages, no. Subsequent mortgages, yes. The State does not claim to take precedence of existing mortgages. There will be further assistance which we propose to give in reference to the raising of the money, and that is that any money out of the settled funds may be employed for the purpose of paying this charge. That is all I have to say about the Estate Duty. I come now to the Succession Duty. I find that, oddly enough, in the public mind there is a want of appreciation of the fact that there have always been two kinds of Death Duties payable. I now refer to the second class of these duties. These are the Legacy and Succession Duties. The Legacy Duty is paid in all events by the individual to whom the property comes. The Legacy and Succession Duties are subject to the consanguinity scale. The Legacy Duty under the Bill will remain entirely unchanged. The Succession Duty will be payable as now, except£ and it is a large exception£in the case of lineals, who will be exempt. It will be levied at the old rates, before the additions of 1½ and ½ per cent, made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goschen). We go back to the old rates of Succession Duty. Where the successor takes an absolute interest, this duty will in future be payable on the principal value, and not upon the life interest as at present. That, of course, is a great change, and will put it upon precisely the same footing as the Legacy Duty. It will be a charge upon the property, and it will not lapse with the life of the person liable, and it will carry interest on the unpaid instalments. With these changes, the Legacy and Succession Duties will become practically identical. You will have the Estate Duty levied like what I may call an enlarged and universal Probate Duty upon all classes of property, and you will have an identical Legacy and Succession Duty, charged practically, as in the present Legacy Duty, upon the beneficiaries of the property. These are changes which, I admit, are of large character, but simple in their plan.
As to the Succession Duty payable by a person who succeeds to a life estate, that will only be on the value of the life estate. In that case would not the Succession Duty lapse with the life estate?
Yes. Great interest is attached to the question, how will these changes affect the relation between the charges upon personalty and upon realty? I will give the House some important figures. At present the total yield of the Death Duties of all kinds is, in round numbers, £10,000,000. Of that at present £8,900,000£I may say £9,000,000£is paid by personalty, and £1,150,000 is paid by realty. And mark, when I say realty I am not speaking of agricultural land; I am speaking of land and freehold houses throughout the country. You may say, therefore, that at present the land and freehold houses£ the realty of the country£pay a little more than one-tenth of the Death Duty. Personalty under Probate pays now £4,800,000; the Estate Duty, £1,130,000; Legacy Duty, £2,720,000; Succession Duty, £260,000 £ total, £8,910,000. Now we go to realty. Probate Duty, nothing; Estate Duty, £110,000; Legacy Duty, nothing; Succession Duty, £1,040,000£altogether, £1,150,000, as against £8,910,000 for personalty.
What is the capital value?
I should rather advise the hon. Gentleman not to pursue that inquiry. I will now state how the case will stand on the plan proposed by the Government. By our plan the total yield of the Death Duties will be £13,500,000 as against £10,000,000 at present.
This year?
No; I am speaking of the final result. Of that, personalty will pay £11,000,000; and realty, land and houses, £2,500,000. That is to say, that under the plan of the Government the increase of the Death Duties upon personalty will be £2,130,000, and upon realty £1,320,000—total increase, about £3,500,000. That is not all. I have shown that the additional charge upon realty under this plan will be £1,300,000. Of that, less than one-half will fall upon agricultural land— that is to say, as far as we can calculate, the additional charge upon agricultural land will be about £600,000. But for that total of £1,300,000 put upon realty we have given a compensation under Schedule "A" of the Income Tax amounting to £600,000 applicable to realty. I ought to tell the Committee that the total allowance under Schedule "A" is £800,000, but of that at least £200,000 will go to leaseholds, which are reckoned as personalty, and, therefore, what has to be deducted from the charge upon realty is £600,000. Now, that will leave the net additional charge imposed by the Budget, upon all realty, including agricultural land and land and houses, at £700,000. Of this sum £350,000 or £400,000 is asked of the landed interest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland as their contribution towards the cost of the defence of this country, and also as a means of placing taxation on an equitable basis. I see to-night that a right hon. Gentleman goes down into the country, and says that it will be the ruin of his ancestral home, and that henceforth the County of Kent will grow thistles instead of strawberries. I hope that such will not be the result of proposals of this character. I confess that when I come to examine these Resolutions I am astonished at the moderation of the change that is made by them. I hope that this statement of mine will tend to re-assure those who have been alarmed by the rumours that have been put forward that we are going to inflict universal ruin upon the landed interest of this country. I think it will be some satisfaction to them that an act of justice which has long been desired— that of placing all property on an equal footing—can be accomplished at so small a cost and by placing so small a burden upon those who are asked to bear it.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
Estate Duty.
"That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be levied and paid to Her Majesty, in the case of every person dying on or after the first day of June, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four, upon the principal value of the property, real or personal, settled or not settled, which passes, or is to be deemed to pass, on or with reference to his death, a Duty at the graduated rates following (that is to say):—
Where the principal value— At the rate for every full sum of £100, and for any fractional part of £100 over any multiple of £100, of— Exceeds £100, and does not exceed £500 One pound. Exceeds £500, and does not exceed £1,000 Two pounds. Exceeds £1,000, and does not exceed £10,000 Three pounds. Exceeds £10,000, and does not exceed £25,000 Four pounds. Exceeds £25,000, and does not exceed £50,000 Four pounds and ten shillings. Exceeds £50,000, and does not exceed £75,000 Five pounds. Exceeds £75,000, and does not exceed £100,000 Five pounds and ten shillings. Exceeds £100,000, and does not exceed £150,000 Six pounds. Exceeds £150,000, and does not exceed £250,000 Six pounds and ten shillings. Exceeds £250,000, and does not exceed £500,000 Seven pounds. Exceeds £500,000, and does not exceed £1,000,000 Seven pounds and ten shillings. Exceeds £1,000,000, Eight pounds.
And, where property subject to Duty at the graduated rates to be imposed in conformity with this Resolution is settled, there shall be levied and paid to Her Majesty upon the principal value thereof a further Duty of one pound for every full sum of £100, and for any fractional part of £100 over any multiple of £100.
In respect of property chargeable with Duty to be imposed in conformity with this Resolution there shall not be levied the Duties following (that is to say):—
1. The Stamp Duties imposed by 'The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1881,' on the affidavit to be required and received from the person applying for Probate or Letters of Administration in England or Ireland, or on the inventory to be exhibited and recorded in Scotland.
2. The Stamp duties imposed by section 38 of ' The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1881,' as amended and extended by section 11 of The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1889,' on the value of personal or moveable property to be included in accounts thereby directed to be delivered.
3. The additional Succession Duties imposed by section 21 of ' The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1888.'
4. The temporary Estate Duties imposed by sections 5 and 6 of ' The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1889.'
5. The duty at the rate of one pound per centum which would, by virtue of the Acts in force relating to Legacy Duty or Succession Duty, have been payable under the will or intestacy of the deceased, or on or by reference to his death, under his disposition or any devolution from him."—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
* : I think a good deal might be said, and a. good deal will have to be said when we come to discuss this question, in reply to the concluding observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I do not at all intend to enter into arguments either on that or any other subject now. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman stated at the commencement of his remarks that it was his intention to withdraw this Resolution after replying to any question that might be asked him, and to take a discussion on the other Resolution. In the first place, I understand that the right hon. Gentleman does not intend that the charge to be imposed on an estate by the new Estate Duty shall take procedure of existing mortgages. That being so, I do not gather from him any explanation of how it would be possible for the owner of such an estate to raise the money required. I will assume that an estate is mortgaged, as I am afraid is the case in very many instances, nearly up to, even if not beyond, its full value. How many people are there to be found nowadays who will lend money on second mortgages? And if the money is not found by means of a second mortgage, where is it to come from for meeting the large increase the right hon. Gentleman proposes in the duty?
It can be paid by instalments.
Yes, but supposing that the net income at the owner's disposal, after paying the interest on his mortgage, is not sufficient to enable him to pay the instalments? In that case he will have to attempt to raise the money by mortgage on the residue of the estate. I believe that he will find it, impossible to do so, having regard to the present depressed value of land and to the reluctance of investors to lend money on a second mortgage, and the presumption in that case is that the State will have to take the property in place of the tax. The next point I will put to the right hon. Gentleman is this: I understand his explanation of the changes he proposes to make in the Succession Duty, but I wish to know whether he intends that the Succession Duty shall be payable where a life estate is taken on that life estate only, as at present, or on the capital value.
I understand on the life estate.
Then all the alteration the right hon. Gentleman proposes to make is that, whereas the Succession Duty is now invariably chargeable on the life interest only, the right hon. Gentleman proposes where the full estate is taken to charge it on the full estate? Then the right hon. Gentleman imposes the new Estate Duty upon personalty abroad belonging to a person domiciled in England, but I gather that he makes no alteration in the law by which personalty in England, belonging to a person domiciled abroad, escapes the payment of Death Duty altogether.
There are great difficulties.
* : I know there are difficulties, but I think the unfairness of the system proposed is obvious, and whatever argument there may be for imposing the Estate Duty as well as the Legacy Duty on property abroad belonging to persons domiciled in England, it seems to me unfair to make such persons liable, without making an attempt to prevent the escape of those who happened to be domiciled abroad. There is another matter I wish to refer to. What the proportions of the proposed increased Death Duties may be, which will be borne in the future by realty and personalty is rather, I think, a matter of argument, but no doubt the right hon. Gentleman proposes a very considerable increase in the existing Death Duties upon individuals. I asked him a question the other evening with reference to the Corporations Duty imposed in 1885. The Committee are aware that that duty is 5 per cent, on the net annual value on certain classes of property belonging to Corporations. The duty payable produces about £36,000 a year, owing to the very large exemptions that were made at the time the Act was passed. I think it was admitted at the time that 5 per cent, per annum was by no means a large payment to be made by these Corporations to set against the then existing Death Duties on individuals. Now that this large increase is made in the Death Duties on individuals, does not the right hon. Gentleman also propose to increase the 5 per cent. Stamp Duty in proportion? There are several points connected with the Corporations Tax that are worth consideration—notably some exemptions which were certainly not intended by Parliament when the tax was imposed, but which have crept into existence owing to the decision of the Law Courts. In fact, the whole Corporation Duty requires dealing with, and I regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not made an attempt to put it on a fairer and more equitable basis as contrasted with the Death Duties.
wished to know how the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who proposed to tax foreign property belonging to a person domiciled in this country, would be able to impose such a tax? If the whole property of a person domiciled in this country consisted of foreign Stock, how was the right hon. Gentleman going to law his hands on that Stock?
We can do so if the House gives us power.
asked how the House could give the right hon. Gentleman the power to deal with property in a foreign country where he had no jurisdiction? He noticed that the increase in the charge on landed property amounted to double the present tax. The present tax and the Succession Duty amounted to £1,150,000, and the new tax would eventually amount to £2,500,000. This was an extremely serious matter, and in his opinion it was made far more serious by the method proposed to be adopted for obtaining the value of all this property. The story which the right hon. Gentleman himself told the House about a picture which might have been worth £5,000, but was only worth £500, showed the extreme difficulty of valuing. Other cases might be cited on the point. In 1883 a testator bequeathed six pictures by Sir Joshua Reynolds and Gainsborough, and for purposes of Probate Duty they were valued at something over £1,150, but five years afterwards they realised £14,000 at a sale. A more striking instance occurred in 1875. Certain pictures and effects were valued for Probate Duty at less than £3,000 in February, 1875, and in May of the same year the same property was sold for £31,000. He mentioned these cases as showing the vagaries of valuation, and he submitted that this method of valuation was an extremely improper method to apply to landed estates. He believed the right hon. Gentleman would find in many cases if the valuation was fairly made and the mortgages were deducted, the deductions would amount to more than the estimated value of the estate. It was notorious that in many cases estates were mortgaged not only up to the hilt, but far beyond the hilt. There was another point which he was not quite clear about. As he made it out, according to the Resolution, taking the case of property worth over £1,000,000, it would pay 8 per cent.; if it passed under settlement it was to pay an additional 1 per cent., and, according to the Resolution, if it went to a stranger it would pay an additional 10 per cent., making 19 per cent, in all, which was a very high percentage.
was understood to say that that was in place of 14 per cent, at present.
said, ambiguity came in with regard to the word "family." He did not know whether that word was to apply to lineals. He also noted that the words in the Resolution as to Estate Duty were extremely large. It was to apply to all property settled or not settled "which passes or is to be deemed to pass." Therefore, it applied to property which did not pass, but which came in another category.
said, that this showed the great mistake of discussing these matters upon a Resolution. The Resolution was always made large enough to embrace everything. What was actually embraced was shown by the Bill, and that was why he was so anxious for the Bill.
said, he was only asking for information upon matters which seemed to require an explanation. It seemed to him that the terms were very ambiguous with regard to the passing of property.
They are (he words of the Succession Duties Act.
thought that was not so; but, at any rate, the words were very wide.
I only rise to make a suggestion to the Committee. It is to the effect that we should pass from this Resolution now, and enter upon a general discussion upon the Budget, of which my right hon. Friend near me (Mr. Goschen) wishes to take a survey. Of course, that will not prevent any questions being raised at a later stage either on the Resolution now before us, or on another Resolution. It is a well-understood principle that the Budget, as a whole, may be discussed on any of the Resolutions.
I propose now to withdraw this Resolution, in order to bring it on first thing to-morrow, and we can then proceed with the others.
,who was indistinctly heard, said, that an answer which had been given to his right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol appeared to require an explanation. His right hon. Friend asked whether, in the case of an estate devised in settlement, the first person who took an interest, taking a life interest, the Succession Duty obtained upon the life interest ought to be on the capital value of the estate. The answer was that the Succession Duty was paid on the life interest. To give an instance:—A. B. devised an estate to his eldest son for life, with remainder to his eldest son for life—a strict settlement. A. B. died. What was to be paid on the death of A. B.? He understood that the son and grandson of A. B., and others coming in lineal succession under the settlement, would be clear of all Succession Duty because of the 1 per cent. paid on the capital value, according to the Resolution.
was understood to say that he had answered the question before. On the death of a person who so settled the estate by will the Estate Duty would be charged, and, of course, would be charged upon the whole property settled. Taking the case where lineals were in the first instance being dealt with, the payment of the Estate Duty on the whole principal value of the property would clear the duty which otherwise would be payable before the Bill became law. The 1 per cent. unquestionably would be put upon the settlement as an additional duty, and would cover all devolutions under the settlement until the property became vested in a person competent to dispose of it, not for the limited interest but for the whole value of the property.
* said, that his question had no reference to the case of lineals put by the Solicitor General.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
Income Tax.
"That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in the 'Income Tax Act, 1853,' the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say):—,
For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value on amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable, under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (B) of the said Act, the Duty of Eight Pence;
And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act,—
In England, the Duty of Four Pence;
In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Duty of Three Pence."—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
* : I will ask the House to pass from the extremely important subject with which we have just been dealing, and from questions of detail, to the consideration of the general Budget proposals as a whole. With regard to what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman to-night, I will only say that he appears to have pricked a gigantic bubble. Until now it has been believed in every Radical quarter that realty was paying millions too little, and that the injustice to personalty was extreme. Now, if the figures of the right hon. Gentleman are correct (but they will have to be subjected to a most rigorous analysis), after you have put realty and personalty on the same footing, after you have removed every possible injustice, there remains £300,000 too little which the landed interest has paid in the past
£400,000.
Well, £400,000. I put it to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether that adequately represents what they have believed to be the injustice of the present system? They will further remark that it is in order to remove this alleged injustice—because the matter will have to be carefully considered— that these gigantic proposals are to be made which will employ all the lawyers in England in re-casting the wills of almost every person during the next three or four years. In reviewing the Budget statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I think hon. Members will have to find their way through a multitude of lofty precepts to the consideration of proposals which are large and ingenious, but which, I think, are not free from some financial frailty. I do not remember any speech made on a similar occasion when the sternest doctrines of high morality in finance have been inculcated with such magnificence. I do not intend to comment on the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman in any censorious or unfriendly spirit. Everyone must have sympathised with a Minister who has had to face so large a deficit as that which it is the unfortunate fate of the right hon. Gentleman to have to deal with. But I think he must expect that here and there his proposals will be tested by that high standard of orthodoxy on which he has himself expatiated with so much eloquent emphasis. I need not detain the Committee many minutes in regard to the Expenditure and Revenue of the past year. Nor, indeed, do I propose, considering the largeness of the proposals, to spend much time on the preliminary parts of the Budget statement. The right hon. Gentleman spoke at length on expenditure, and repeated, to a great extent, his protest against the growing amount of expenditure on all our Services. I reminded him last year, and I must remind him again, that it appears now that neither Party can claim any distinction as to economy. Hon. Members opposite have charged Conservative finance, in times past, with being extravagant. But they have now been in Office two years, and under no single head of expenditure is there any symptom of any decline in the charges that are put upon the taxpayers of the country. Therefore, although there is plenty of other kinds of bunkum, I think that that particular form of bunkum had better be avoided in future in election speeches. Now that we have reached a time when State action is to be extended in so many directions, when the State is apparently to undertake so many new duties, when there are to be increased legions of Inspectors, for example—now that all this is to be done, of course the Estimates must rise from year to year. The circumstances are too strong for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, just as they have been too strong for Chancellors of the Exchequer in the past. But the fact is, that if the new doctrine is to prevail in many quarters—it does not prevail in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—if the new doctrine is to be that there is to be expenditure for the masses and payment by the classes, we shall see our expenditure increase by leaps and bounds. With regard to Revenue, the right hon. Gentleman congratulated himself and the country on the fact that in a year like the past there was no falling off in Revenue, which afforded so much evidence of the general solidity and tax-paying power of the country. I associate myself entirely with his satisfaction as regards that point. It is, no doubt, won- derful that in the year which has passed the Revenue reached the point which it did. According to the right hon. Gentleman this is politically and socially satisfactory. As far as it shows the great consuming power of the working classes, no doubt it is satisfactory. But the right hon. Gentleman did not draw attention to the fact that out of £45,000,000 contributed by indirect taxation £30,000,000 were contributed by the drinkers of alcohol. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in his official capacity that the consumption of alcohol still remains precisely the same as it was, but the same congratulation can hardly be extended to the right hon. Gentleman as the ardent patron of the Local Veto Bill. So far there is no decrease in the moderate desire of the people to resort to alcoholic drink. Among the proofs of prosperity to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded there is one to which I wish to call attention. I share his satisfaction at the existence of this proof, but I doubt whether we ought to draw precisely the same inference from it that he drew. I allude to the increased deposits in the savings banks as showing the growing prosperity of the country. The right hon. Gentleman dwelt on the effect of the Bill of last year by which the limit of deposits was raised, and no doubt that had a great effect. It is, however, important to know how far the increase is to be accounted for by a transfer of deposits from other quarters, and how far it is due to an increase of thrift among the people. In so far as it shows an increase of the power of depositing, of course it is an unlimited blessing. I look upon these deposits as forming a kind of partnership between the masses and the State, and they seem to show that in a vast number of cases by self-reliance and personal effort people are making some provision for their old age. But there is one financial aspect of the question to which I would call attention. As you increase the enormous mass of deposits in the hands of the Government, now amounting to £126,000,000 sterling, and as you extend the limit of these deposits, you are perhaps exposing yourselves to the danger of withdrawals at times when it would be most inconvenient to the State to meet such demands. Hitherto the depositors have not belonged to the classes that suffer most from industrial or commercial depression. When they do come from those classes, you will run the risk of fluctuations in the deposits in your hands at most inconvenient moments. I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept that suggestion in the spirit in which it is intended. There is, I know, a constant desire at the Post Office to increase its business. In fact, I believe the office would be prepared to "run" the business of the whole country, as the phrase goes, but its ambition ought to be restrained within reasonable bounds. With regard to the Revenue, I do not quite understand why the revenue of the Post Office has shown a certain want of elasticity. I know the telegraphs compete with the telephones; but as regards the Post Office itself, I rather gather there is a falling off in the natural advance we might expect. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman agrees with that. In the case of expenditure, the right hon. Gentleman called attention to the fact that the total had increased in 20 years by £24,000,000, and education had increased by£6,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman contrasted direct and indirect taxation, the remissions that have been made in the case of each and the burdens which have been imposed. In taking into account what has been done for the wage-earning classes, this increased expenditure on education ought to be put on the credit side, because the greater part of these £6,000,000, differing in this respect from other parts of our expenditure, may be viewed as going either directly into the pockets of the working classes, or, if I may use the phrase, into the heads of their children. This expenditure is a distinct boon to them, perhaps a greater boon than if the money had been spent in giving them a free breakfast table, for in that case the middleman would have secured a certain amount of the remission; but in this case the working classes have got the whole of the advantage of the £6,000,000, and I hope, therefore, that in future, when hon. Members contrast what has been done in the last six years in respect of direct and of indirect taxation, they will not omit to take into account the large sum voted for the establishment of free education. The right hon. Gentleman drew a balance sheet, after his comments upon Expendi- ture and Revenue, and he showed a deficit of £4,502,000. In unfolding it, the right hon. Gentleman used most eloquent language respecting financial morality. He intoned in solemn accents the articles of his financial creed, saying—
"This is a very formidable sum. How is this vast deficit to be met? Not by borrowing; not by abandoning the fixed and permanent provisions for the liquidation of the Debt."
Yes, not by abandoning those provisions, but by tampering with them. The Committee will remember how startled we all were when, after his declarations on the subject of financial morality, the right hon. Gentleman told us that he was going to diminish this year the amount fixed by Statute for the reduction of the Debt by £2,000,000. I think this stern financial purist, when he made up his mind to come to such a conclusion as that, must have entered in his private diary on that day, "I was tempted and fell." The right hon. Gentleman cast a kind of cloud over this transaction, but it is as clear as daylight. I do not condemn the action of the right hon. Gentleman; I only condole with him on his lapse from his own standard of financial purity. This is the position. At the commencement of this year the amount fixed for the discharge of the permanent Debt was £25,000,000. Besides that, there was au amount of £1,400,000, which ought by Statute to be paid out of the Revenue of this year, and an amount of £500,000, likewise by Statute, which ought to be paid out of the Suez Canal dividends, both applicable to the discharge of debt. But these statutory provisions are not convenient to the right hon. Gentleman, and he is going to repeal so much of them as will enable him to dispense with the payment of £1,400,000 and to annex the Suez Canal dividends as a windfall. [Sir W. HARCOURT: Not as a windfall.] I will gladly withdraw the word. The effect of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal is that the £25,000,000 set aside for the payment of the permanent Debt will be diminished this year by £2,000,000, which have to be applied towards the payment of other debt. I trust we shall hear no more from the right hon. Gentleman of these high doctrines; but if we do, I shall be very happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman upon that ground; and if he thinks we are to hear more upon this, then there is a temp- tation for me to go more fully into the matter. However, for the present, I will refrain from doing so, and will only put one point which the right hon. Gentleman evaded and avoided. He has in this year, irrespective of his new proposals, an Estate Duty of 1 per cent. How does it come to figure in the Revenue? It was a temporary tax put on to discharge the annuity under the Naval Defence Act. We did not put that annuity upon our successors in the ordinary sense. We established a tax which should last so long only as the annuity lasted, and no longer; but the right hon. Gentleman discharges the annuity out of the provisions made for the permanent Debt, and annexes the particular tax imposed by Parliament for a particular purpose and diverts it to his own use in meeting the ordinary expenditure of the year. That is the story of the financial expedient by which he proposes to reduce his deficit to a sum of, I think, £2,390,000. The right hon. Gentleman then began to lay down fresh principles, and said that in order to deal with a sum of that magnitude it would be necessary to have recourse to the great staple branches of Revenue, and he stated his views that no small taxes should be imposed. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for not imposing small taxes.
I meant for a large deficit.
Yes, and he said that for large deficits you must go to the larger sources of Revenue. I know that there exists in the mind of the public lie a certain prejudice against any fiscal changes which disturb certain trades or give trouble. I enter my protest against that. The Committee will, I hope, allow me to put this view before them. In my judgment, our total fiscal system rests upon a very narrow foundation. The whole Revenue is derived from a comparatively small number of sources. Any one, indeed, who can broaden the basis and find new sources of Revenue by which you can avoid a constant recurrence, for example, to the Income Tax, will render and does render a public service. The right hon. Gentleman has to meet a heavy deficit, but it is not such, a one as could not possibly have been met by far less financial changes than he has thought wise to introduce. I think the right hon. Gentleman has, this year, preferred dealing with large financial reforms to dealing with other measures, and securing the certainty of other measures passing. Last year he' was unable to deal with the Death Duties because he had no time. The House was engaged with other considerable and very important business, and the right hon. Gentleman found he had no elbow room. Every one who listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman on the occasion of introducing the Budget and who listened to his speech this evening, when he told us he had been in 50 minds on one particular point, will recognise that he may find that if the Committee only had 50 minds on the subject, and—I will not say if the whole of us who had different minds on the subject were to give expression to our views, but if a few of us were—the discussion of these proposals would absorb a period of time which would leave very little margin for the consideration of the general legislative programme of the Government. The proposals are extremely complicated, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted, and, with every desire to sift them fairly, it is clear we shall have to spend a very large amount of time upon them. The right hon. Gentleman deals with the Death Duties. I do not propose to discuss the Death Duties to-night in any sense except one, and that is as regards the question of graduation. That is financial, and is a point which lies outside of the legal questions involved in a re-arrangement of the Death Duties. A system of graduation may not be applied to Probate Duty alone, and it stands on a totally different footing from the other questions. Let me point out at this stage that, so far as securing money is concerned, the right hon. Gentleman is only going to improve his deficit within the year by £300,000 through the means of the Death Duties. He expects them to yield £1,000,000. He is going to put the Income Tax upon the net instead of the gross, which will cost him £700,000, so that his net gain by this immense operation he is undertaking is only £300,000 this year. [Sir W. HARCOURT was understood to indicate dissent.] I am showing what he gains. By the change in the Death Duties alone he does not gain £1,000,000, because if he did not impose Death Duties he would not give the relief of this £700,000, which would remain over to the Income Tax, and he would be only £300,000 short. If he had confined himself to the Income Tax, and left Death Duties alone, the result of the loss to the Budget would be £300,000. There is the whole result of the operation for securing £300,000. The regulation of the Death Duties has been imposed upon the right hon. Gentleman as a task which he was bound to perform as soon as he could find time. I frankly admit that it has been part of the creed of the Liberal and Radical Party for many years, and it was right that he should undertake it. But it was not right to undertake it simply from the financial point of view. As regards the question of graduation, we come there upon what is, no doubt, the newest part of the scheme brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer —new in the sense that such a scheme has never before been proposed to Parliament. The Committee must therefore regard it with very great gravity and seriousness. It would be impossible in a Debate of this kind—one upon general proposals of the Government—to exhaust the subject of this serious graduation. But I should like to open up the subject, and I am sure it will be felt to be perfectly right that some of the views we entertain on this question should be placed before the Committee. Schemes for graduation have been placed before Chancellors of the Exchequer by the Inland Revenue Authorities for some years past. I myself have had a tentative proposal in my hand which did not differ very much from the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, but in fact bore a remarkable resemblance to it. That scheme eased off properties under £1,000; it put 3 per cent, on properties between £1,000 and £5,000; 4 per cent, on those between £5,000 and £25,000; and 4½ per cent, on properties between that value and £50,000. This tentative proposal precisely resembled that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer up to this point. On properties ranging in value from £50,000 to £100,000 it was to be 5 per cent. Then, from £100,000 to £500,000, 5½ per cent., and properties valued at over £500,000 had to pay the maximum amount, which was put at 6 per cent. This scheme was in my hands at the time that the Estate Duty was proposed, but I did not see my way to propose even a scheme of that character, which was 2 per cent. below the maximum of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, to my colleagues or to Parliament. The Estate Duty gave me sufficient money at that time, and because I imposed a scheme increasing the duty on estates above £10,000 by 1 per cent., the right hon. Gentleman has quoted me as an authority for a graduated scheme of this kind, but it is not fair to quote a step such as I took as a justification for the step that has now been taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman has done me the honour to quote me a good many times. Well, imitation is said to be a form of flattery, but exaggeration is a form of caricature—and I would rather that the Chancellor of the Exchequer turned his attention to quoting the views which have been expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian upon this question. What are the views of the Member for Midlothian upon graduation? The Member for Midlothian has for years presided over the finances of this country, and he has never submitted a scheme of this kind, so far as I remember, or even discussed a scheme of this kind, unless it has been within the last two or three years, and as to that I have no knowledge. But I shall give evidence presently to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there was a time when certainly the sentiments enunciated by the right hon. Member for Midlothian would have been contrary to a scheme of this kind. We must all admit that there is something in the doctrine that increased burdens should be placed upon those who are best able to pay. Graduation introduces this principle ad establishes the standard of taxation, not only by the ability of the man to pay, but by the extent of the sacrifice, and it is felt by everyone that there is a greater sacrifice in the case of a man having but £1,000 a year who is called upon to pay £100 than there is in the case of a man with an income of £10,000 a year, who would now be required to pay £1,000. There is, no doubt, much to be said in favour of taxing those who are best able to pay, without undue sacrifice, if you can do so fairly and on equitable grounds. I wish it distinctly to be understood that I am not discussing this subject in any final or dogmatic spirit, but I am simply anxious to point out some of the points involved. You get launched here on a new field altogether, where you have no standards to guide you. That is where I see the greatest possible difficulty. You can gauge an extra 1 per cent.; but when you say that estates are to pay 10 per cent., or 15 per cent., everyone will ask why not 20 or 25 per cent? I have no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be met in Committee with Amendments proposing that a millionaire should be taxed 10 per cent. instead of 8 per cent. But where are you going to find a standard of what is right to take when you go up to the higher figures? I think that the standards will vary from Parliament to Parliament, and from majority to majority; and the principle of taxation will depend on the wave of public opinion, and not on that equality of taxation which has been insisted upon in our finance. The House of Commons should take that point into consideration. The example of Victoria has been quoted by the right hon. Gentleman; but are we seriously asked to accept the colony of Victoria as a specimen of financial orthodoxy with its protective tariff, with the working classes defending themselves as they do through their tariff? I ask the House to remember that the whole structure of our society, as well as the accumulation of wealth here, is different from that in a new country and in any of our colonies. I know that in many quarters there is a hostility to capital, but it is. largely by capital that you are able to find the immense sums which the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires now for discharging the duties of the State. I am anxious that this graduation should not become a kind of scaffolding for plunder. I am quite certain the idea is not in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Government as a. whole. Possibly it is not in the minds of many hon. Members; but there is the possibility of inflicting injustice after injustice because you will have no standard to guide you—no landmarks to place along this road of taxation. On the principle of prudence, therefore, it behoves the House to look very carefully at the scheme of graduation. On another point, that of evasion, I have to say that I was advised by the Inland Revenue that after you had reached a certain point in putting on Death Duties you would then easily reach the point where the increase of duty would not necessarily bring you in an increase of revenue in the course of the year—not in consequence of fraud, but in consequence of yielding to one very natural human impulse instead of yielding to another. What is the human impulse under which £1,000,000 is accumulated? The hon. Member for Leicester said that no man ought to possess £1,000,000. I do not understand how he could work that out. Does he mean that such a man is not to earn it, or does he mean that he ought to give it away? He must mean that he is to spend it in his lifetime, to distribute it; and in distributing it, he gives it to his sons during his lifetime and withdraws it from the clutches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The objection to this accumulation may be a good one; but what is, then, to become of the Death Duties? The money, on this assumption, is not to be distributed in articulo mortis — not at the very last moment—but the possessors might distribute it to their sons as soon as they have secured that amount of wealth which is ample for themselves. A man now says, " I think it better to retain the control of the money in my own hands, and I will leave it to my sons when I die;" but if you are going to take several thousands of pounds from the family money, and waste it by paying it to the Exchequer, it would form a very potent motive for distributing the money during the lifetime of the testator. Not only, therefore, considerations of prudence, but the amount of taxation which will be recovered, must induce the House to pause, before it fixes the Death Duties at too high a figure. I have heard it discussed within the last two or three days how this duty would be evaded, and how arrangements would be made the upshot of which would be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not benefit. It is suggested that in some cases families would establish their businesses on the limited liability principle and give shares to their sons. This would ensure the money remaining in the business, but, belonging as it did to the sons, the possessors would not be taxed at death. Those are matters which ought to be studied, and no one would be discharging his duty unless he examined a great and serious change like this with all the care he can bring to bear on it. I go back now to the financial point that the Death Duties are to supply an additional £1,000,000, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer then proposes an increase in the Income Tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has recourse again to the penny, but he does not get much value out of it, owing to the further changes which he proposes. Taken together he will gain £1,300,000 through the imposition of a penny and the change in the Death Duties, the enormous change which is made by placing realty and personalty on the same footing, and by this graduation scheme. I give every credit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in dealing with the Death Duties he was bound to put the Income Tax on the net instead of on the gross amount. It will be necessary, however, to examine whether the proposed deductions of one-sixth in the case of houses and one-tenth in the case of land are fair or not. I have heard a great deal during the past year from house-owners in the Metropolis showing that what they lost through the Income Tax being put on the gross instead of the net was very much more than the 16 per cent, to which the right hon. Gentleman has consented. This point will have to be examined very carefully. It was held at one time that a Valuation Bill would be necessary to carry out such a scheme; but I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has not waited for a Valuation Bill, and that he sees a way to deal with the question in some other form. I now come to the last of the changes of the right hon. Gentleman, which is the reduction of the Income Tax on the incomes of the poorer people. The Committee will feel that there is no point on which, so far as sympathy goes, objection will be taken to the action of the right hon. Gentleman in his effort to relieve those who pay Income Tax on the lower scale. I have always felt that they are people who bear very heavy burdens, and everyone would wish to see them relieved. Carrying out that view, we proposed and carried a reduction in the rate of duty upon houses occupied by the poorer classes, a measure which I think was not exposed to the same difficulties and possible dangers which may be seen in the present proposal of the Government. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman personally for having made this proposal, but he will remember that what he is doing is to give relief to a very large class at the very moment that he is imposing an additional burden on other classes by the same tax. It is not a remission of taxation simply, but the burdening of a certain number of other taxpayers of the country.
If it is just.
But is it just?
That is the point.
I do not know whether the hon. Member represents the new Radicalism or the old; but I recall an interesting circumstance to the Committee. In 1876 the then Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir S. Northcote) proposed and carried changes which were in one respect based on the same principle as those of the right hon. Gentleman. He raised the limits of of exemption and the amount of abatement, and he was denounced in the House in the strongest terms which a man could use by the right hon. Member for Midlothian. I myself took the view that the change was of a questionable character to give relief in order, as it were, to ease the passage of a scheme putting the burden on the minority. This is what the right hon. Member for Midlothian thought of a proposal which was on all-fours with that now proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
" It is undoubtedly not as Liberal Members of Parliament in particular that we are called upon to oppose a measure the obvious purpose of which is to relieve the larger and more numerous classes of society at the expense of the more limited and wealthier. That duty belongs to us as men of honour and, I think, as prudent men."
Now, that is a pretty strong declaration for the right hon. Member for Midlothian to have made. He continued—
"It is truly stated that this is a proposal by which I will not say you bribe the majority, but by which you induce the majority of the actual taxpayers to acquiesce in the increase of a tax by making that increase positively and absolutely beneficial to them. You encourage them to run in upon the minority; for you are going to mate the increase of the taxation of the minority reimburse and compensate the State for the relief you give to the majority. Is that a safe principle? I have serious doubts whether we were right in 1872 in raising the maximum up to which deduction is allowed from £200 to £300. But that is totally different from what my right hon. Friend has done, which is to purchase, in the same Act and law, the relief of one man at the expense of another who is compelled to pay for the relief as well as his own share of the tax."
Therefore, the hon. Member for Sunderland will see that there is something to be said on the other side. At that time the whole Liberal Party voted against Sir Stafford Northcote, holding as they did the views expressed with such strength by the right hon. Member for Midlothian. This moment seems to be particularly inopportune for the form of relief which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has devised for a body whom we are all anxious to relieve. As the right hon. Member for Midlothian pointed out, you are weakening the greatest engine of our national taxation. He said, in effect, that if you proceed in these lines of exception, you weaken and encroach upon the possibilities of that great piece of machinery for any emergency. And remember, when the exemptions are once made, you can never retrace your steps. How much more by the proposal of the right, hon. Gentleman do you weaken the machinery than was the case when the right hon. Member for Midlothian made the speech which I have quoted? This may have been forced upon the right hon. Gentleman. In his speech he expressed sympathy. But (said the right hon. Member for Midlothian), we must not be led away in this matter by our sympathies, however much we may desire to help this particular class. It is by other means that relief ought to be given. This is another instance in which I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer he has lapsed from the high doctrines of financial orthodoxy, or from the doctrines of his right hon. Friend. I think the total which the right hon. Gentleman gave us as the result of his enormous changes up to this point was £1,330,000; and then he says that he must find another £1,000,000. Again, the right hon. Gentleman is good enough to resort to what he calls a "flattering imitation." He deals with the Beer and Spirit Duties; and because one Chancellor of the Exchequer has at one time proposed a tax on a particular industry, he thinks that he must select this same industry to contribute to the Revenue of the State again.
It contributes least.
I do not understand the interjection of the right hon. Gentleman. What is he going to get out of this Beer and Spirit Duty? I congratulate him here upon one fact—that he counts among his supporters a majority of the Scotch Members and a majority of the Irish Members. I presume that he will not have to encounter that opposition from them which was extended over nights and nights at the time of the discussion upon the increased Spirit Duty which I proposed. I do not know what arrangements have yet been made by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the continuance of this tax. Rumours have been abroad that it is to be made a tax which is to end with the present financial year.
I stated that it was to end with the present financial year.
Then the right hon. Gentleman ought to write off £1,000,000 from his Budget. In this announcement I will prove to the right hon. Gentleman that he has struck a blow at his Budget of which he has not yet calculated the consequences. When I proposed a Beer Duty my friends behind me pressed me extremely hard to limit the duty to one year. They were very angry, and they put considerable pressure upon me; but I thought it impossible to make that concession, because if you impose a tax and you make it known on what particular day that tax will cease, there will be no deliveries of the article taxed for a long period, and you will be unable to secure your Revenue. So I did not impose the tax simply for one year, but simply said that beer must take its fair chance of remission with other articles, and I would not give way. The right hon. Gentleman knows something about this, too, because if the brewers had joined with the Liberal Party at that time, the Conservative Government might have been turned out on the Beer Duty. But they supported the Government of the day, and the tax still exists. I must press this point with regard to the tax ending with the present year. But that is not the only difficulty. I ask this question. Is this direct or indirect taxa- tion? There is a confusion in the minds of everyone on this point, and I am not sure that I have not shared the confusion myself. The right hon. Gentleman did not say whether he considers it to be direct or indirect taxation. The general rule seems to be that, at the time when you are persuading the House to impose a duty, it is a direct tax on the profits of the brewers; but that after the tax is imposed, it forms a portion of the indirect taxation which has been levied on the country. But I understand and believe that in this case, as regards spirits at any rate—I am not sure about beer—the tax will be borne by the consumer. That is to say, the consumer will not pay it, but will contribute it to the Revenue through drinking more diluted liquor. I will read a communication which has just been handed to me, which states the case very clearly and forcibly—
"For argument's sake, hitherto, of every 100 gallons of whisky sold, 85 gallons have been proof spirit and 15 gallons water. Now, of every 100 gallons sold, 82 gallons will be proof spirit, and 18 gallons water. Therefore, if the consumption of spirits remains the same in quantity, the amount of proof spirit going out will be 3 per cent, less, and I do not see how the trade can expect to sell more, as the consumer will make a quart or bottle go as far as before."
That the smaller quantity of whisky should go as far as the greater is, socially, extremely desirable, but financially very disastrous—
"Eighty-five gallons at a duty of 10s. 6d. brings to the Exchequer £44 12s. 6d.; and 82 gallons at a duty of 11s. brings in £45s. 2s., so that on every 100 gallons sold the Revenue will benefit only by 9s. 6d., instead of, as the Government hope, by 50s."
That is not a very pleasant prospect for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman must have taken that more or less into consideration; but it is as nothing compared with what he has done by this bargain of limiting this tax to the end of the present financial year. Has he any precedent for such a course? Has it ever been done before? Or is it a new form of the high financial morality in reference to this article, another case of that "fiscal orthodoxy" which the right hon. Gentleman so often hurls at us? I will refer him to the occasion in 1885 when Mr. Childers proposed an increased Spirit Duty. Then the brewers and the spirit dealers pressed Mr. Childers to limit the imposition of the duty to one year. Mr. Childers said—
"In Committee we shall provide that the duty (the Beer Duty) will only last till the 31st of May next year, so that in the first Session of the new Parliament the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to propose a Resolution as to beer precisely as he will have to do with regard to tea, which is only an annual duty."
Hear, hear!
That cheer is unfortunately premature, because Mr. Childers went on to say—
"But that could not be done as to the Spirit Duty. Practically, if the duty on spirits were left only determined to a particular day next year the trade and the Revenue would be in a complete state of disorganisation."
The right hon. Gentleman extends to spirits what Mr. Childers was content only to apply to beer, and the result is that every gallon of whisky that is taken out of bond after the 1st of April will pay less duty than if it had been taken out on March 31. Of course, it is plain that every effort will be made to reduce the stock of whisky during the present financial year. I congratulate the hon. Members from Ireland on their ingenuity and sagacity in having extracted a promise from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject, because they will actually pay less duty this year with an increased duty on whisky than they did last year with a lower duty. He is going to lose 10s. 6d. per gallon on every cask of whisky which remains in bond, and therefore you must calculate what diminution there will be in the revenue from spirits throughout the United Kingdom. What is the amount of the revenue on spirits? It is really in round numbers £16,000,000 from the Excise alone, which is about £300,000 a week. Now, if the consumption and stock are reduced by one-twelfth—and it is by no means a violent supposition that it will be so reduced in regard to' such an article as whisky—it is equal to a loss of revenue of £1,200,000, or within £100,000 of the tax which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to put on. Under these circumstances, I would in the most friendly spirit recommend the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it is worth while to press the tax, which will disturb the whole organisation of the trade and give rise to great friction? There will be every kind of difficulty towards the end of the financial year, and how will the Chancellor of the Exchequer prevent the trade working up to that particular day? The prospect of its approach will be enough to induce persons to withhold payments. There will be endless uncertainty. The fact is, that the right hon. Gentleman has granted a concession to his Irish friends which will destroy the balance of his Budget; and supposing that the Home Rule Bill had passed, how would matters have stood then? I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman that under present circumstances he is able to bargain with the hon. Members from Ireland, whereas if the Home Rule Bill had passed, does the right hon. Gentleman think that there is anything that would have induced 80 hon. Members from Ireland to have passed a Resolution for an increase in the Spirit Duties when they had nothing to gain by it? I think the right hon. Gentleman is to be congratulated upon that point, and, while I am about it, I may as well congratulate him oh the fact that he has not in his Budget to provide an extra £500,000 in order to set up a Home Rule Parliament. In regard to a great part of this Budget, I have not been anxious to approach it in any partisan spirit, although, of course, I was bound to refer to the historical points mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have frankly endeavoured to avoid Party spirit, but all these proposals will have to be examined with the greatest possible care, because they establish a number of new principles, as to which it is difficult to calculate how they will affect the springs of our national prosperity. I therefore hope that both sides of the House will approach them with a candid desire to sift all the difficulties of the present financial situation to the utmost, and with an impartiality which will ensure to the nation that these proposals have been properly considered by their Representatives in this House.
* : I have nothing to complain of in the tone of the criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman upon the financial proposals of the Government. I do not grudge him the little gallop in Party references which he has made on the subject of Home Rule, which he thought it necessary to introduce into this Debate. I will very briefly notice one or two of the principal points to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. First of all, he spoke of the savings banks. The right hon. Gentleman is rather timid upon many subjects, and his timidity is in excess upon this subject. He is dreadfully afraid lest the people of this country should put too much money into the savings banks, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have exaggerated responsibilities in regard to those deposits.
* : The right hon. Gentleman will understand that it is "on demand." That is the main point. I have nothing to say in regard to the amount of the deposits; what I commented upon was the enormous amount withdrawable on demand.
I cannot entertain the opinion that anyone occupying the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer should discourage and restrain the amount put into the savings banks by the masses of the country.
I never said anything of the kind.
I am at a loss, then, to understand what was meant by the observation of the right hon. Gentleman. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman warned me of the danger of the vast and rapid increase in the deposits in the savings banks payable on demand. I do not regard that increase with apprehension, but, on the contrary, I regard it with the highest satisfaction. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the great growth of the expenditure during the last 23 years and spoke of the £6,000,000 which had been added on account of education. But there is another £6,000,000 of which the right hon. Gentleman took no notice—that was the amount of the subsidy to the rates which was withdrawn from the Revenues of this country. Then my right hon. Friend referred to financial purists. That is a subject on which I am some what sensitive. I agree that my financial principles are exactly the opposite of those of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman's financial purity consisted in this: He began his finance of five years by diminishing by £2,000,000 the Navy Estimates; then he diminished permanently the provision for the payment of the National Debt; then, having engaged in a large expenditure, he carried it out by borrowing money. The right hon. Gentleman did not meet the Expenditure of the year by the Revenue of the year, and having borrowed the money which he left others to pay he declared surpluses out of borrowed money. These are the financial principles of the right hon. Gentleman.
The right hon. Gentleman again omits the fact that I imposed £1,400,000 of additional taxation.
That does not alter the fact. The right hon. Gentleman may have imposed that additional taxation, but he left a debt of £5,000,000 behind him, and had every year a deficit, although he declared a surplus. The right hon. Gentleman cried "Peccavi" the other night, and said that if he had known that what had happened was going to happen he would never have done what he did. One does not require to be a great financier to say that, but there was one sentence which appeared in some of the newspapers which I will quote. The right hon. Gentleman said—
"If the right hon. Gentleman should think it right that the annuities for these two years, which amount to £1,500,000, should be capitalised he would be perfectly ready to bear all the odium of having increased the debt by £3,000,000."
If the right hon. Gentleman had only done that, it would not have been necessary for me to suspend the New Sinking Fund, because the liability would have been discharged by the ordinary Debt Fund. But the right hon. Gentleman, with his ingenuity and his financial principles, instead of admitting that he had done what he did, which was to create a part of the permanent Debt of the country, by ingenious devices endeavoured to conceal from the public what, in fact, he was doing; and the reason why I have been obliged to make these arrangements is because the right hon. Gentleman invented the, financially speaking, abominable machinery of the Naval Defence Act and hid from the world that he had borrowed £5,000,000 of money and had left it as a debt to those who came after him to pay. That is the reason I have had to do this. What is it that I am going to do? I am going to meet the Expenditure of this year out of the Revenue of this year. As long as I hold the Office I have the honour to fill, I shall never resort to any other expedient. I have, in point of fact, treated this £5,000,000 as it ought to have been treated, and as the right hon. Gentleman has now admitted that it ought to have been treated—namely, as part of the regular permanent Debt of the country to be discharged out of that fund.
I do not admit it at all. What I meant was that if the right hon. Gentleman, in order to help himself out of a difficulty, chose to do that, I would not oppose his doing so; but I said nothing with regard to the original condition of the Debt.
If the right hon. Gentleman had done what he ought to have done at the time of the transaction everything would have been perfectly regular. He borrowed the money; it was part of the Debt, and I am now discharging it as part of the Debt. I maintain that what I asserted in my speech on the Budget is true. I have not suspended the Permanent Debt Fund, but have used it for its proper purpose, and that is the discharging of debt. Compare that with what the right hon. Gentleman did. He suspended the Debt Fund, not for one year, not for two years, but for ever. He abandoned for ever £2,000,000 of the Fund set apart for the payment of the Debt—not for the payment of the Debt, but for the purpose of using it as annual Revenue. He used it for the purpose of reducing the Income Tax in order to obtain popularity by that course. That was the financial purity of the right hon. Gentleman. Then, the right hon. Gentleman does not agree with me on the subject of small taxes, and he wants new sources of revenue. When the right hon. Gentleman succeeds me as Chancellor of the Exchequer—which I understand will be some time in the course of this month—he will tell us what the small taxes are from which he desires to derive revenue. That is the view of the right hon. Gentleman. I have often heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian denounce that doctrine. It was stated 20 years ago by Sir George Cornewall Lewis and was then attacked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian. For my part, I believe that for great variety of revenue you must rely on great taxes, and not harass the interests of the country by the multiplication of small taxes. The whole financial policy of this country since the time of my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian has been the reduction of the number of taxes and not the multiplication of small taxes. The right hon. Gentleman objects to my quotations from him, and complains that I quoted him as an authority for the germ of graduation. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity of telling us what he thinks on that subject. He says that the question of graduation was propounded to him in a more moderate form while he was at the Exchequer, and that he rejected it. That reminds me of some lines by a great poet:—
"Che fece per viltade il gran rifiuto!"
I think the time will come when this question of graduation will surely take its place in the taxation of this country, and then it will be remembered that the right hon. Gentleman had that proposal before him, that he deliberately refused it, and that to-day, on behalf of the Party he represents, he repudiated the principle of graduation.
* : I must say that the right hon. Gentleman is attempting to make a Party advantage out of this, which is totally unjustified by anything I said. It would be impossible for me, without any communication, to speak authoritatively on behalf of the Party; and, besides, I invited hon. Members on both sides not to reject the scheme, but to examine it. Still, I thought it my duty to point out the many difficulties involved in it and the considerations which ought to be borne in mind. I repudiate entirely the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, that as the representative of the Party I repudiated the principle of graduation.
* : I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has not made up his mind against this principle. The truth is, that the right hon. Gentleman's mind is so evenly balanced that it is always difficult to discover on which side he is in regard to a particular question. At this moment, whether he is for graduation or against it, I do not know. Then the right hon. Gentleman has said there are methods of evasion. I understand it to be suggested that families are to be formed into Joint Stock Companies for the purpose of evading payment of the Death Duties. Whether they are to be formed for the purpose of escaping death itself I do not know. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that methods of evasion will be adopted. Do you think there has been no disposition, no temptation, to avoid payment of these duties up to the present? I admit that in questions of this kind—and especially in new questions—you ought to be moderate. I think it would be a great mistake to introduce a principle of this kind at a very high figure. That would alarm people, and drive them into methods of evasion which, I think, it would not be right to encourage. I have received large numbers of letters—and, to my astonishment, more from Conservatives than Liberals—expressing satisfaction with the proposals made by me in the Budget. The right hon. Gentleman next said that it was a perfectly new departure, and contrary to sound financial principles to impose taxes in order to take others off. What is the history of the great financial reforms of Sir Robert Peel? Why, the whole thing was based on his taking taxes off poorer people who could not afford to pay them. In 1841 he imposed the Income Tax, which had not existed since 1816, in order to take taxes off the poorer people. All the financial policy of Sir Robert Peel and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian was based upon no other principle than that. They had, throughout, used the great engine of the Income Tax and other direct taxation in order to relieve the humbler classes of the community from a multitude of taxes which they were not able to bear. That is the principle of all sound finance in this country. The next point upon which the right hon. Gentleman expresses his dissent is the method of relaxation, by way of exemption and abatement, proposed in reference to the Income Tax. There is, however, one allowance which the right hon. Gentleman has not objected to, and that is the allowance under Schedule A to the landlords. Not one word of objection has he raised to that.
That is counterbalanced.
The abandonment of a portion of the Income Tax to men under £500 a year does not commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman. That is, I suppose, a dangerous proposal, because it would be a relief to the humbler classes of the community. ["Oh!"] If that was not so, what is the meaning of all this criticism? I should like, incidentally, to mention a point which has been strongly urged upon me. I have been asked, when I spoke of £500 a year and £400 a year, whether the abatement was meant to cover the full figures of £400 and £500, or whether I only meant to speak of sums under £400 and under £500. As this will apply to a large number of persons whose salaries are exactly those figures, I think the allowances should be made up to those figures, and not stop below them. Then the right hon. Gentleman asked what was so dangerous as to carry out these abatements to a large portion of the community. Does he object or does he approve of those proposals? Will he oppose or will he support them?
I think the right hon. Gentleman might have listened to my speech. I told him my own view and the course the Party would take.
Then what is the meaning of this carping criticism? If these are proposals you are going to support, why does the right hon. Gentleman disparage them? Why these apprehensions as to all that is going to follow the passing of them? Then the right hon. Gentleman said, "I did something in this way; I diminished the House Duty." Yes, but that is no good to anybody but householders. What is the good of that to clerks who are not householders—men with incomes between £200 and £300 a year? What is this principle of finance which is "willing to wound and yet afraid to strike"? The right hon. Gentleman is in favour of financial purity. He is opposed to the relief we give. He dislikes it, but he is not prepared to oppose. Then, he says, we have weakened the Income Tax. He says that in the time of war or when stress comes we shall repent having given this relief to the humbler classes. No, Sir. In my opinion, our action will strengthen, not weaken the Income Tax. In my opinion, the weakness consists in putting undue pressure upon those who are little able to bear it. I gladly have given these two remissions because I thought they were just to the two classes affected, and because I thought it was a sound principle of finance to remove the pressure and thus make the tax less unpopular than it is. . Therefore, when the right hon. Gentleman tells me that I have weakened the Income Tax by making it more tolerable to the humbler classes, I again say my financial principles are directly opposed to that theory. I believe my policy has a tendency not to weaken but to strengthen the tax. The right hon. Gentleman was a little hesitating and ambiguous in his treatment of these matters, but when he came to the Beer and Spirit Duties then he revelled in his subject. He told us the amount which should be taken off the Spirit Duties by methods which he endeavoured to indicate. Here the right hon. Gentleman can assist me very much. First of all, he can take my place and make the duty perpetual. He has advised me not to make it temporary for a single year. I shall be glad of his assistance in resisting the brewers and the spirit merchants, and in making it perpetual. [An hon. MEMBER: Your Irish friends.] Yes; but gentlemen opposite may assist me in that matter; and if they are prepared on behalf of their friends, the brewers and spirit merchants, to propose that the Spirit Duty shall be made perpetual, I will take their offer into very serious consideration. If I can only get a pledge from the right hon. Gentleman I shall consider it. It is the only part of the Budget on which he has realty expressed an opinion. He has not ventured to have an opinion on any other part of the Budget. The only outcome of his speech, as it appears to me, is that the Beer and Spirit Duty shall be perpetual. If he will give me time to reflect, as he himself took time to reflect, upon this question I shall reconsider the question of the perpetuity of the duty. The right hon. Gentleman says he is perfectly clear as to his views. I do not know whether he came to the conclusion whether these duties were a direct or an indirect tax. Whether he has an opinion on that subject I do not know, but gentlemen most interested in it have a very clear opinion. I have read utterances on this subject by men of high authority in the trade. I find now that one of the speakers at a meeting in Glasgow, held the other day to consider this subject, said that—
"In approaching this question he wished to draw attention to the fact that it was most unfair and unjust, because the manufacturer might not get the buyer to give the increased duty, and it was now admitted that it was to be exacted from him. The 6d. on spirits could not be divided into fractions. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had put a larger sum upon a barrel of beer it might have been divided into fractions, and then the consumer would have to pay the tax, but this nimble sixpence was like a grain of sand in one's eye—it was irritating until got rid of."
That is the trade opinion on the incidence of the tax. I suppose the gentleman who seconded the resolution at the Glasgow meeting understood the subject. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman wishes to oppose any of these proposals —any of these particular taxes. It is quite true I have put on several taxes. I was bound to deal with the Income Tax, because I was bound to deal with Schedule A. Being, as I say, bound to increase the Income Tax, in my opinion it was desirable to give relief at the lower end, which I think a justifiable proceeding. As far as that goes, I have only to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his sympathy. Reference has been made to the purity of beer and spirits. How much has the strength diminished at present? What do you think one of the best known spirit merchants advertises—one of the most respectable of the dealers? Why, 52 per cent, below proof. ["No!"] Yes. I have the document in my box, and it is in vain for the hon. Gentleman to shake his head.
If anyone sold spirits at 52 per cent, below proof, he would be prosecuted for adulteration and convicted.
I am compelled to inform the hon. Member that he is not acquainted with the law. The Adulteration Act states what is the amount of adulteration permitted; but if you tell your customer, you may put whatever amount of water you like.
I admit that.
* : Then the hon. Gentleman does not understand his own business. I have here Mr. Gilbey's published list, and he does what every man should do; he states on each bottle what is the strength. The hon. Member will find it in this list, where the price of each commodity is given. Here is 3s. 1d. for a bottle of spirits. I find in one case the mark "52 U.P.," which I understand means under proof. I hope the hon. Member will thank me for giving him some instruction in the business in which I understand he is interested. Here is the printed list, which has been supplied to me by a friend of mine. I have also an amusing document here which T may glance at, if the Committee is interested in the matter. I caused to be tested in different parts of the town what these "twopennorths" of spirits were like as sold over the counter. The tests were, as I have said, made in different parts of London. We took poor neighbourhoods and wealthy neighbourhoods. In Bethnal Green on rum the profit on the selling price is 108 per cent.; in Mile End, 91 per cent; in Whitechapel, 96 per cent.; Walworth Road, 91 per cent. It seems to be on a graduated scale, for when you go to Oxford Street it is 136 per cent., and in Piccadilly it is 230 per cent. When we come to brandy you get a higher class of consumer. In Bethnal Green the profit is 152 per cent.; Newington Causeway, 164 per cent.; Whitechapel, 155 per cent. I do not know that brandy is treated on a different scale in wealthy localities; but in Oxford Street the profit is only 80 per cent., and in the City in a first-class restaurant it is only 142 per cent. On Genevas the profit is—in Bethnal Green 108 per cent., in Oxford Street 165 per cent., in Walworth Road 111 per cent., and in Whitechapel 116 per cent. I had not intended to go into this subject to-day, but the right hon. Gentleman made so much of the Spirit Duties that I could not refrain from offering these statistics. Looking at the subject all round, I do not think that these are trades upon which an undue burden has been placed by the proposals of the Government. Nor do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to dispute that proposition. He does not say that a tax should not be put upon spirits or upon beer. His only complaint is that I do not make it perpetual; and, as I understand, he does not object in principle to my Death Duties—he only says that I get so little from them. That is, I suppose, because they are not enough. He does not object to the Income Tax; he does not object to the allowances made under the Income Tax; he does not object to the Beer Duties, nor to the Spirit Duties. I am happy, therefore, to think that, though our financial principles are so wide apart, our financial conclusions come so near to a point. Under these circumstances, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the moderation with which he has dealt with the proposals of the Government.
When I came down to the House to-day I had not the slightest intention of addressing any remarks to it, but I do not think the speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer has thought fit to make should pass without some brief word of comment and protest. His final words were words of conciliation and peace, but the whole tenour of his remarks not only misrepresented my right hon. Friend (Mr. Goschen), but misrepresented him obviously for Party purposes. It appears never to have occurred to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that any man could come down to this House to discuss the finances of the country without making Party capital out of it. It never has occurred with himself, and he thinks it never could occur with anybody else. But I can assure him that every word that dropped from my right hon. Friend was not to embarrass the Government by factious criticism, but to bring before the Committee and the country considerations which ought not to be absent from our minds when we are dealing with the most far-reaching financial proposals that have been laid before us for many years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not endeavoured to answer my right hon. Friend's criticisms, but has sought to twist and pervert them—I will not say turn them into ridicule—but to make them appear to demonstrate that my right hon. Friend is the pronounced advocate of principles with which he did not deal in the most cursory manner. I do not wish to go at length into the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but I think I can in a very few moments expose his misrepresentations. The first point was about the Sinking Fund, and he actually had the courage to repeat that he had not diverted to other purposes the fund intended for the diminution of the Debt. What has the right hon. Gentleman done? He found the Sinking Fund allocated to the liquidation of the Permanent Debt of the country. He found the annuities allocated to the liquidation of the Temporary Loan. He took the Sinking Fund intended for the Permanent Debt, and allocated it to the Temporary Loan. And he took the annuities intended to deal with the Temporary Loan, and he bagged that for his own purposes. That is the procedure of this financial purist, who has been telling us —I will not say with Pharisaic air, because that would imply a degree of condemnation which I do not wish to throw upon the right hon. Gentleman— but with an air of exceptional virtue, how far he stands above the financial sinner (Mr. Goschen) who sits on my right. My right hon. Friend made a most interesting comment in passing upon the dangers that we are running in confining too much of our taxation to one or two commodities at most. That danger is a real one; I do not think anybody can deny that. How does the right hon. Gentleman meet that criticism, which was not put forward in a captious spirit? He says this is a principle which has been accepted by all financiers from the time of Sir Robert Peel. He says that Sir Robert Peel put on the Income Tax for the very purpose of relieving the poor—or perhaps he referred to Sir Robert Peel at a later stage misinterpreting his policy. Possibly, it is convenient to trade generally that we should confine ourselves to the traditional channels of taxation; but the time may come—I think probably will come—when the right hon. Gentleman's successors may bitterly regret that we have carried to such a length a process which, beneficial though it has been, may be carried too far. The right hon. Gentleman went on to refer to two subjects of profound interest to the public—one the question of graduation, and the other the question of the additional immunities which he has given at the lower, end of the Income Tax scale. All my right hon. Friend did was to point out in language of extreme moderation the dangers and difficulties which undoubtedly attach to both those propositions, be they good or bad; and my right hon. Friend did not rely solely in his criticisms upon his own judgment. He rested upon the recent and traditional opinion of the Party opposite, as expressed over and over again in clear and eloquent language by that eminent statesman the Member for Midlothian, who has impressed his personality more upon the financial policy of this country than upon any other portion of our public affairs. My right hon. Friend quoted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian's,. I will not say violent, but certainly rather strong language against certain proposals of Sir Stafford Northcote. The Chancellor of the Exchequer never referred to the authority my right hon. Friend quoted, but took the language and opinions which the right hon. Member for Midlothian expressed, and held them up to scorn and contempt, and said he was thankful his principles were very different from those of the right hon. Gentleman. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is at perfect liberty to his own opinions on finance; but when he comes down here as the apostle and representative of the traditional financial policy of this country, it does not become him to treat with contempt the financial opinions of the Member for Midlothian, at whose feet I should have supposed, in such matters, he would have been glad to sit. The last criticism of my right hon. Friend upon the Budget was directed against the temporary character of the Spirit Duty. His remarks were eminently business-like, and directed to obvious financial difficulties—criticism which, of all other criticism, should have been met by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a business-like spirit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a few gibes and jokes, but never attempted, even by one word, to deal with the fundamental difficulty which my hon. Friend has laid before this House. The procedure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is almost incredible in its audacity. He comes down and unfolds a Budget which gives a surplus of £280,000, under which it is proposed to make the increase of Spirit and Beer Duty permanent. Pressure is brought to bear by those on whose votes he depends to retain himself in Office, and he is obliged, or thinks himself obliged, to reduce the term during which the Spirit and Beer Duty is to run for one year—that is, to the end of the financial year. My right hon. Friend pointed out that whether the proposal is good or bad, whether it is fair to the brewers and spirit merchants or not, or whether it is fair or unfair to Ireland and Scotland, yet this result must follow: that the surplus of £280,000, which the Chancellor of the Exche- quer promised on Monday last, will sink to a deficit of £900,000 if he carries out the new Budget which he has brought down to us to-night. That is a very serious criticism, whether well-founded or ill-founded. My right hon. Friend gave a reason for his opinion in language which must have impressed itself upon hon. Members. Certainly, it showed to me that a very plain danger lies before us, and that the object of making the taxation of the year pay for the expenditure of the year—about which the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) has made so many boasts, is likely to end in the taxation of the year not paying the expenditure of the year at all. In, perforce, a serious discussion by business men of business matters, what is the use of getting up and making a lot of jokes about irrelevant matters and a good many Party misrepresentations, unless it be for a General Election? What is the use of doing that, and at the same time omitting even the faintest reference to criticism which, if it be well founded, strikes at the very root of the whole Budget? My right hon. Friend quoted the opinion of the Member for Midlothian against the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and quoted it in vain. On the Spirit Duty my right hon. Friend quoted against the Chancellor of the Exchequer the opinion of another of his colleagues—Mr. Childers. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having got on his legs and treated us to three-quarters of an hour's oration, might, in the course of that oration, have dealt with the most important criticisms laid before him by my right hon. Friend. The truth is, the right hon. Gentleman may have produced a very good Budget, which may have all the financial and popular success he anticipates; but he has not produced a Budget which carries out the professions with which the speech in which it was introduced was so plentifully larded. Over and over again the right hon. Gentleman introduced his views about financial principle and purity. What does it all come to? It comes to this: that the right hon. Gentleman, by his own profession and on his own showing, has to deal with a deficit of £4,500,000; and he has provided every sixpence of that deficit out of the taxation paid by the wealthier classes. That may be right or it may be wrong; but it is deliberately in violation of the principles laid down by the right hon. Gentleman himself in his own Budget speech. Of course, it is open to anyone to say that, while the Beer and Spirit Duties fall largely upon the consumer, they are for the most part drawn from the poorer classes of the community. It may be open to other gentlemen to hold that opinion, but it is not open to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has, in his Budget speech and since, said that all he has done has been to tax the profits of one bloated and overgrown trade. It may be a good and proper object of taxation, but he cannot ride two horses at once. If he holds to the opinion that this sixpence of Spirit Duty is a tax, not upon the consuming public, but upon the producing and distributing trades, then, Sir, every single source of taxation he has drawn upon to fill up the gap caused by his deficit is drawn from the wealthier classes of the community. That may not be a reason for modifying the Budget, but it is a reason for not accompanying that Budget with professions there is no attempt or pretence to fulfil. There will be other opportunities of discussing the broad principle involved in the details; but I should be sorry to allow this occasion to pass without reminding the right hon. Gentleman how little in this respect he has carried out the promises he was so anxious to hold out to us. But if he cannot condescend to discuss the Budget proposals, either now or when the Bill is before us, without introducing Party recrimination, and by meeting fairly arguments which in all good faith are brought before us, he will find a task which must necessarily be a difficult one amount almost to an impossibility.
said, they could hardly let this occasion pass without saying something on the general principle of the Budget as they now knew it. He (Mr. Bartley) could not help being amused at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was always his intention to defray the expenditure of a year out of the receipts for that year. The right hon. Gentleman did not do it last year. He did not attempt it, for he took a large sum out of the Treasury chest—£300,000—which had been set aside in previous years. Really and truly this was taking borrowed money for the purpose of his annual expenditure. There were many other questions referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it was a great pity he had introduced so much Party heat into the matter. They were told the Budget was to be discussed on a question of finance, and that no Party matters were to be introduced. Well, if Party heat were introduced the right hon. Gentleman only had himself to blame for it—and it would be as well here to remind the right hon. Gentleman that he had not got his Budget through yet. The Opposition were prepared to discuss the Budget without considerations of Party, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer had attacked his predecessor the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, and had perverted nearly everything he had said, and that was not a course calculated to conduce to the peaceful consideration of the Budget. He (Mr. Bartley) had been most struck by what was said as to savings banks. The remarks of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer on that subject were very forcible. Everyone must admit that the fact that the Government held £130,000,000 or £140,000,000 payable at call was, on the face of it, a serious consideration. No doubt they were glad that that amount was continually growing. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's had always done his utmost to increase the efficiency of the savings banks; but it was a fact, and a startling one when they came to realise it, that at any moment the Chancellor of the Exchequer might be called on to pay that large amount at short notice. When they were considering the great fiscal questions of the year it was not unreasonable to refer to this, and for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to turn round and retort on the right hon. Gentleman that he seemed to grudge the people putting their money by was to pervert what the right hon. Gentleman had said. He noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not like this reference, and was going away—
* : Is it expected that I shall remain in the House every moment? I will remain if the hon. Member insists upon it, but I must have some rest, and I thought this would be a convenient time to take it. I had asked my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury to remain. The personal discourtesy I am subjected to is a thing I must protest against.
said, that after the right hon. Gentleman's discourtesy to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer— having perverted everything he had said —and when they were anxious to go into the facts, as they were, they did not like to see the right hon. Gentleman going away whilst they were talking. When he returned he complained of personal discourtesy. He (Mr. Bartley) had never been personally discourteous to the right hon. Gentleman, but he must say that when as Leader of the House the right hon. Gentleman attacked a Member he was bound to wait and listen to the answers.
I have never thought it worth while to attack you.
said, he was obliged for the right hon. Gentleman's extremely courteous remarks. He was accustomed to such observations from the right hon. Gentleman. They did not hurt him in any way; but if the right hon. Gentleman thought that because he sat on the Treasury Bench and was Chancellor of the Exchequer he could be as discourteous as he liked and nobody would retort, he made a very great mistake. [ Laughter. ] That laughter came from one or two of the right hon. Gentleman's Irish followers whose votes the right hon. Gentleman was securing by agreeing to limit these new Spirit Duties to a year. The hon. Members would, of course, applaud anything the right hon. Gentleman said. Was it intended that the new duties should be permanent? If so, the right hon. Gentleman was deluding his Irish followers, and throwing dust in their eyes. If it was not so intended, then the right hon. Gentleman would not get the money he required by a measure brought in before the end of the financial year, and his Budget would be a delusion. With regard to the Sinking Fund, he (Mr. Bartley) had always urged that it should not be reduced. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman had never condescended to listen to anything he had said in former years. If he had he would remember that some years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square reduced the Sinking Fund, he (Mr. Bartley) protested against it. He would have had it maintained at the £28,000,000 at which it stood when introduced by Sir Stafford Northcote. But it came very ill from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after all he had said about the importance of keeping up the Sinking Fund, that he should have taken the first opportunity to upset his own statements. The country was in a state of peace, the Income Tax was raised to 8d., and now they were going to estop the Sinking Fund to an amount that would represent something like £30,000,000 if they were at war and required to borrow that amount. As to gradations, he had not the least hesitation in saying that he regarded graduated Death Duties as wise and right in principle. On the question of exemptions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, again, was extremely unfair to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's. He (Mr. Bartley) had urged, and urged strongly, that, inasmuch as at the bottom of the Income Tax scale was a class of persons who were most severely hit by taxation, it would be right and proper that exemptions should be made at that end of the scale. But there was force in the remark of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian, that this would be regarded as playing a political game—studying the interests of the most numerous class at the bottom of the scale at the expense of the smaller number of taxpayers at the top of the scale. They must remember that they had been gradually increasing the scale of exemption from the Income Tax, and he for one did not think that the exemption which the right hon. Gentleman had given by reducing at the bottom of the scale was so sound and fair a proposal as that of making a difference between spontaneous and industrial incomes. He was aware he might again be courteously told by the right hon. Gentleman that he had already heard his argument on the point 45 times, but he would remind him in reply that he had not yet once condescended to answer him. The man who had an income of £500 a year from spontaneous sources was after all not a man of very small means; but a man who had to earn £500 a year had to put by a larger sum annually. It would have been more equitable and far better for the general community if the right hon. Gentleman had made a larger reduction on industrial incomes, and a smaller one on spontaneous incomes. No doubt the Budget contained many things they all agreed to and approved of; but while he agreed with the system of the graduation of the Death Duties, the justice and fairness of it depended very much on the detail in which it was carried out. The right hon. Gentleman had made an enormous effort to produce a very small amount, and if he had really wanted to take the Sinking Fund he might have done so more boldly, he might as well have been hung for a sheep as for a lamb. It would not have had any worse effect on his career as a financier. They were all aware that he was anxious to produce a sensational Budget; but the details of his proposal would have to be thoroughly thrashed out if they desired to avoid inflicting considerable hardships on many districts and on many interests.
* said, he very much regretted that a very mischievous and deplorable spirit of Party controversy had been imported into the Debate of this evening by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he thought the subjects under consideration were those to which little, if any, such feeling ought to attach. He said this, although of course he recollected that many Budgets had wrecked many Governments, and that many Party Divisions would no doubt be taken in the future upon the financial policy of future Governments. But if ever there was a Budget from which Party spirit ought to be detached this was that Budget, and if ever there was an occasion when that spirit ought to be absent from their Debate this was the occasion. He did not think that anybody who heard the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's could accuse him of having imported any Party references into his masterly criticisms of the Budget which he was examining, and he was certain, if that speech left upon anybody's mind an impression that it was prompted by Party feeling, it could only be attributed to the complexion which the Chancellor of the Exchequer put upon it by way of travesty, or if not travesty, paraphrase, when he replied. He must say he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer was unjust and ungrateful in his action in directing Party observations upon the discussion in respect to this Budget. First, the Committee would recollect that the right hon. Gentleman had told them that afternoon that he had been congratulated, "funny to say," in his own words, by Members of the Conservative Party upon his Budget proposals. If he might do so respectfully, and speaking as one who prided himself upon being a Conservative, he desired to associate himself in the congratulations which the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them he had received from Members of that Party upon the subject, and to tender those congratulations very cordially indeed, being sure at the same time that so doing would not, in the opinion of his right hon. Friend opposite (Sir J. T. Hibbert), be taken to preclude him, when the proper time came, from canvassing, examining, criticising, and, if need be, objecting to some of the proposals contained in the right hon. Gentleman's Budget. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer was explaining to them the way in which he proposed to levy these complicated, and, in his opinion, in some instances oppressive, Death Duties, he told them that what he wanted was the imposition of such duties, but that he was going to approach the question of their application with a perfectly open mind. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must see that his opponents had some claim upon his consideration. But there was another reason why he thought the right hon. Gentleman should be a little grateful to his opponents. To whom did he owe three at least of the principal foundations on which the structure of his certainly somewhat complicated Budget had been built up? Which Government was it that bought the Suez Canal shares, to which the right hon. Gentleman would be indebted this year for £250,000, and in future for £500,000 a year? These Party recriminations were not only generated, but extracted by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Which Government and which Chancellor of the Exchequer was it that founded the New Sinking Fund which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was now proposing to make serious inroads upon? Was it not Sir Stafford Northcote, in 1876? He (Mr. Cohen) only wished that that rigid sum of £25,000,000 constituting the New Sinking Fund had never been and never would be applied otherwise than its author intended. Lastly, who was it but Sir Stafford Northcote who extended the system—he was not sure if he was not the author of it—of abatement from Income Tax which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so beneficently and so wisely, as he thought, further extended on the present occasion. When the right hon. Gentleman was seeking to make Party capital out of the criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's he thought he might have' with becoming gratitude recollected to what sources he was indebted for three of the pillars upon which his Budget was founded. He should like to say a word or two upon the question of graduation. If there was anything more than another on which he should like to tender to the right hon. Gentleman his congratulations and gratitude it was for having introduced—they knew the first steps were always the most difficult— this principle of graduation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated his opinion to be that the lauded owners were those who would be the least likely to feel the burden of the tax. He did not agree with him, but that was only a question of the application of the tax. With the principle he entirely associated himself, and so far as regarded the application of this principle to the passing of personal property on the decease of its owners, he not only wished to subscribe to the principle, but so far as he had been able to examine the proposals he desired entirely to associate himself with their applications. However, he wished to guard himself from expressing this unqualified approval, when they came to the relation of real property to the Death Duties. He might, perhaps, be allowed to say that he thought personal property should be distinguished from real property, in respect of the duty which it paid under this new Estate Duty, quite as much as in other respects, because the one was extremely convertible, and because the testator was in reality not entitled to more than 96 per cent, of the property he left, 4 per cent, being the property of the State, whereas real property was on a different footing. Therefore, while approving of the system of graduation with regard to personal property, he desired to reserve his opinion when they came to deal with the application of the tax to real property. The next point to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred in reply to his right hon. Friend (Mr. Goschen) had reference to some observations which had been made as to the financial purity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman was very sensitive about his reputation. He thought, however, the right hon. Gentleman was unjust to his right hon. Friend, who distinctly stated in words that he did not blame the right hon. Gentleman for having diverted the New Sinking Fund. He (Mr. Cohen) was not so indulgent, for he did blame the right hon. Gentleman, preferring, in the right hon. Gentleman's own words, that the taxation of the year should be paid out of the income of the year. The right hon. Gentleman told them that this deficit was not going to be found by tampering with the fund set aside for the permanent reduction of the Debt. That was what he told them on Budget night, and he had told them to-night that so long as he remained Chancellor of the Exchequer the Committee might rely that the expenditure should be paid out of the income of the year. The right hon. Gentleman violated this canon on the same evening that he laid it down. What was the expenditure of the year? Was it that which we paid for the Army, Navy, and Supply Services? If the expenditure for the year was so defined, then he agreed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and probably every one of his predecessors, did pay the expenditure of the year out of the income. But he took the expenditure of the year to include the expenditure on the National Debt. But what the Chancellor of the Exchequer shirked was the redemption and interest in respect of this Debt created out of the Naval Defence Act. He wanted to know from the mouths of these great financial purists who adorned the Treasury Bench by what authority, and on what account, they could distinguish between the charge payable on the Old National Debt and the amount payable on the New National Debt. If any such distinction was sought to be made, it quite violated the rule laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he introduced the Budget. The right hon. Gentleman in his Budget speech did not distinguish between the charge for the old and the new debt, or distinguish between the two being equally a charge upon the year's income. There was not a shred or a shadow, therefore, for suggesting that the right hon. Gentleman was keeping up to the standard he had himself laid down of paying the year's expenditure out of income. As to the Spirit Duties, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, sarcastically, that he would make them perpetual if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goschen) would give him his valuable support in the endeavour. That was a statement which would be very effective on a platform, but it was hardly worthy of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because everyone present knew that the pith, the figures, the details of the reference of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's to the subject were directed to the continuance of the Beer Duties for a certain period and of the Spirit Duties until the repeal of the Act. The right hon. Gentleman bad not argued that because of the eligibility of beer and spirits for being charged. He (Mr. Cohen) did not know what the right hon. Gentleman's opinion on that subject was. But the right hon. Gentleman argued the question entirely from a financial point of view—as to the injustice which would arise to the Exchequer from a sudden termination of the dues on a particular afternoon or day. The contempt with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had received the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's could not have been due to misunderstanding the arguments and calculations of the right hon. Gentleman. It must have been owing to a sudden alarm at the overthrow and disturbance of all his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) structure in consequence of the discovery made by the Member for St. George's. That was the only way to account for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's unworthy and unappreciative reception of so valuable a suggestion as that of the right hon. Member for St. George's. He (Mr. Cohen) would not imitate the example of the Chancellor of the Exchequer by going into the question of motives, but in a Budget of this kind, which depended on so small a margin for its final balance, and in which it was not possible to fix as approxi- mately as usual the actual yield of the new sources of income, the Member for St. George's merited the gratitude rather than the scorn of the right hon. Gentleman for recommending caution. Amongst those with whom he was accustomed to associate in the City or on the Opposition side of the House he had riot discussed any desire to examine the Budget proposals in a captious spirit. They recognised the difficulties under which those proposals had been framed, and, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would but meet the criticisms of the Opposition in a fair spirit—in a spirit quite the opposite of that which he had adopted that evening—the right hon. Gentleman's financial achievements, unlike the legislative proposals of Her Majesty's Government, might redound to his credit.
said, that everybody who had followed the course of events during the last three years must have come to the conclusion that the late Government had left the finances of the country in an admirable condition to enable the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a financial statement which had been generally received with favour. He (Mr. Isaacson) had very carefully examined every detail of the Budget, and when they considered the enormous losses the country had sustained, not only through default in Trust Companies, but in every branch of trade, and when they saw the number of countries which had defaulted in their interest on their bonds—namely, Portugal and Uruguay, France also having reduced her rate of interest, making the poor poorer—they could not but feel that this country had been passing through an unprecedented crisis, and the storm had been weathered in a wonderful manner. He had fully expected a larger deficit than that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had announced. Taking everything into consideration, in his opinion the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted, under the circumstances, not unwisely in regard to the Sinking Fund. If the right hon. Gentleman had not done so, he would have had to create an additional tax of some kind to meet the deficit, and it must be admitted that it was an extremely lucky thing that there was the first instalment of dividend from the Suez Canal shares to avail of. He wished that the brewers, and the brewers only, could be made, by some means, to pay the extra tax on beer. The brewers had, year after year, been making enormous profits without reducing the price of the poor man's beer. At the present moment barley was at the ridiculous price of 23s., a price never known before, and if they took the price of the other materials used in the brewing trade, they would find a difference of something like 40 per cent. since 1884. They all knew that whatever tax was imposed on food in this country fell on the consumer. In the case of beer the brewer increased the price to the publican, and, as a matter of course, the publican increased the price to the consumer, or reduced the quality of the beer. He was sorry that the extra tax could not be imposed upon the brewer, and the brewer only. As to the matter of spirits, he represented a very poor constituency, where probably the people had not as many of the luxuries of life as were possessed by many constituencies in other parts of London; and he could not blame them, when he took into consideration the miserable food they had to eat, and the terrible state of trade during the last few years, if they took a glass of beer or spirits, which might constitute the only comfort they had in life. He could quite understand the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir W. Lawson) preaching the doctrine of temperance. That was a very excellent doctrine, and one which they would all like to see carried out, but the hon. Baronet forgot that he never proposed anything by which people could get their tea or coffee at a more moderate rate. It was a well-known fact that at almost any railway station one could get an excellent glass of beer for 2d., and a. very bad cup of tea and coffee for 4d. As to the Income Tax, inasmuch as nearly everybody's income had been very much reduced of late years, the increase would be much felt, but he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken a very wise course in exempting so many more poor people from the tax, and he should certainly support the right hon. Gentleman as much in that portion of his proposals as in any other. He could not help feeling that a man who was so fortunate as to be left £100,000 by anybody who died must count himself fortunate if he got that amount less 6 or 8 per cent. A legatee had nothing to complain of in having the tax deducted before he received the legacy. As to laud, the agricultural outlook was most gloomy, and he thought that any Budget by which the agriculture of this country would be injuriously affected ought never to be allowed to pass. With regard to the mode of taxing foreign securities, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said he felt it a very difficult matter to tax anyone residing in a foreign country but holding a vast amount of securities in this country. The French had a very excellent plan by which they overcame this difficulty. Every coupon held by an absentee from that country was taxed at a totally different rate from the coupons held by rentiers living in France. On the whole, in view of the position of this country and of the state of trade, he thought the Budget was a fair Budget, and one which ought to receive the support of the House.
* said, the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken was to be congratulated on the fairness of his remarks, and he was glad to observe the tone that prevailed generally on the Opposition side of the House. As to the Whisky and Beer Duties, he would make only one remark. It should be kept in view that that class of taxation was voluntary, and that no one need contribute a penny to it unless he were so inclined. It had been said that the land was to be made to suffer greatly at an inopportune time. The landlords, however, had it very much in their power to improve their own position. He heard only that evening that a considerable landlord in Scotland who had a small farm to let had a number of competitors for it at a larger rent than he had received from the previous tenant. He (Sir J. Leng) had been rather amused to hear the depression in agriculture in the South of England represented as being so great that a number of landlords would be glad to be rid of their properties, and that he might go round the South of England, take over a large number of farms that were going begging, and return a very considerable landed proprietor. He really could not think that agriculture was depressed to that extent. If it were so, he thought he might organise a movement on the part of tenant farmers in Scotland for their migration southwards. He believed that such farmers would be able to make a profit out of land in the South even in these bad times. The Budget had been received in Scotland with the greatest favour. The Scottish people thought it was fair to redress those palpable inequalities of taxation which had hitherto existed between real property and personalty. Although comparatively little was done so far to graduate the Income Tax, what was proposed to be done was regarded as being in the right direction. The graduation of the Estate Duty would go very far to satisfy the public generally as being in the direction of justice and equality. It was to be kept in view that the increase in taxation this year was very much consequent upon the provision that was necessary to be made for putting the Navy in a proper position. There was, on the opposite side of the House, a strong demand for the increase of the Navy. He considered that it was to a great extent necessary that something should be done, but, at the same time, he apprehended that the more we did in that direction the more we should provoke the great Powers on the Continent to follow our example. It would be far wiser, he thought, for our statesmen to take the initiative in endeavouring by diplomacy to establish friendly relations with other Powers, with a view to a reduction rather than an increase of all these armaments. When the Naval Defence Act was adopted the supposition was—
I think that this cannot be discussed now.
* said, he would not pursue that line of remark. He would simply say, in conclusion, that the proposals of the Budget, and particularly those for consideration that evening, had the approval of the people of Scotland generally, and that even the slight increase in the Whisky Duty was not regarded with that dread and horror which some people thought must necessarily be felt in a whisky-drinking country. It was believed that both the distillers and the publicans would survive the slight addition to the duty. It was known that their profits in recent years had been enormous, and, on the other hand, many were of opinion that Scot- land would maintain her position even if the production of whisky and, more particularly, the drinking of it, were diminished.
asked, on a point of Order, whether the moving of the Amendment would not stop the discussion on the general question?
I think that would be so. If the right hon. Gentleman likes to give way he can do so.
* intimated that he would be happy to give way, and move his Amendment later.
said, he must ask to be allowed to make a few observations in consequence of the remarks that had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman had insinuated, even if he had not practically stated, that his right hon. Friend (Mr. Goschen), with whom he had had the honour and privilege of serving at the Treasury, desired to curtail the amount of the investments in the Savings Banks. No one who knew his right hon. Friend would for a moment think there was the slightest foundation or justification for such an imputation. It might not, however, be generally known that his right hon. Friend held a very strong view, and he thought wisely and rightly held that view, that there was or might be a very grave and serious danger to the country in having £130,000,000 which might be withdrawn at a time of the greatest difficulty. This was no new view on the part of his right hon. Friend. When his right hon. Friend was at the Treasury he had under his consideration over and over again the question of devising means for inducing the investors in Post Office Savings Banks to take advantage more largely of the opportunity of investing their money in Consols. Under the arrangement made with the Bank of England his right hon. Friend took the opportunity as far as he could of encouraging investments in Consols by means of a system which was automatic, besides being cheap and expeditious. The adoption of that system had resulted in a very large use being made of the opportunity of investing in Consols. He did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer would for a moment question the soundness of the argument that it was not desirable, if it could be avoided, to have so large an amount of money subject to withdrawal at a moment's notice. Besides, there was this important point to be borne in mind, a point worthy of serious consideration. They had recently made a change in the law connected with the Post Office Savings Bank; they had enlarged the limit that any individual could invest during a year. There had been going on at the same time a tendency, under an Act passed by his right hon. Friend for the protection of savings in Trustee Savings Banks, to close a number of those Trustee Savings Banks and transfer the accounts to Post Office Savings Banks. Therefore they had these two movements going on at the same time, and had to look forward, not to the amount of money they had to-day, not to the rate of investment that had been going on for the last 10 years, but they might reasonably look forward to still larger investments made in the Post Office Savings Banks. In view of those important facts, it was a matter of grave consideration and of obligation on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to try to protect the country from so grave a danger. If the right hon. Gentleman could devise means by which he could induce people to make larger investments in Consols without in any way diminishing the inducement to put their savings in the Post Office he would not only protect the country, but encourage the people to save. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had something to say about the Death Duties, and there was only one point that he (Mr. Jackson) desired to mention in connection with the Death Duties. They had heard much of the change which was proposed in the law, to charge in future upon the principal value, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer called it, as against the capitalising of the income. But they had this change in the future; these duties were to be graduated, and according to the total amount would be determined the scale of payment. He thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would admit that the higher the rate the larger the temptation to evasion, and the greater the temptation for a man, say, having £10,000 a year to invest the larger portion of it in the names and for the benefit of his children before his death. He thought it was not at all unlikely that, instead of leaving his wife £3,000 a year for housekeeping purposes, that he might invest the money for her in his lifetime, and trust her to take good care of it. He thought these were real possibilities, and it was possible it would be found that these Death Duties, high as they were, would hardly produce the amount the right hon. Gentleman anticipated. He hoped that the change from annual income to principal value would be made perfectly clear; that an estate of the value of £300,000, but with mortgages upon it up to £200,000, would be charged as an estate representing the value of £100,000.
Hear, hear!
was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a word to say about a criticism made by his right hon. Friend about imposing new taxes for the purpose of enabling the remission of taxes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was rather hard on his right hon. Friend, and pointed to the fact that this had been done on former occasions, and in connection with the great Budget of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian, that there had been taxes imposed in order to remove other taxes bearing on the people. No doubt that was true, but he doubted very much whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer could find an instance in the history of the country where, for the purposes of reducing or granting exemptions with regard to a particular tax, this particular tax was raised on the whole nation. Or to put it in another form, he thought the right hon. Gentleman would find it difficult to bring forward any example or any precedent for a Chancellor of the Exchequer raising the Income Tax by 1d. in order to carry certain exemptions connected with it. He did not think any instance of that could be found. It was obvious it might be of great advantage to put on an additional 1d. to the Income Tax to sweep away a number of taxes the cost of collecting which might be large, and of which the incidence was borne differently, but he did not think the right hon. Gentleman would find an example analagous to his own action in this particular case. Now let him say a word with regard to these exemptions. The plan adopted by the right hon. Gentleman was to raise the Income Tax from 7d. to 8d., in order to enable him to make certain exemptions. If it were possible to simplify the process by which those who were entitled to abatements should be able to get them, he thought great satisfaction would be given to a large number of persons who knew little of the methods of procedure followed by the Inland Revenue. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the ingenuity displayed in imposing an additional penny on the Income Tax in order to allow five-eighths of a penny to be taken back. He thought that when the taxes were paid it would not be found that the abatements were so large as the right hon. Gentleman anticipated. The right hon. Gentleman took credit for having given a boon, as he called it, to those who paid under Schedule A. No doubt it was a boon, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman did not wish that it should be thought that the Income Tax payer under Schedule A, as regarded land, was going to pay less under the new system than he paid under the old, because, so far as he was able to estimate it, it might be stated thus: The right hon. Gentleman put on an additional 1d. and he allowed 10 per cent. to be taken from the gross value. Take a property of £1,200 a year; the Income Tax which the owner would be called upon to pay would represent at 8d. £40 a year. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to allow him to deduct 10 per cent., which would bring it to £36, whereas if he paid on the gross sum at 7d. he would only pay £35 a year, therefore the great boon amounted to an additional payment of £1 a year.
The right hon. Gentleman has omitted one class upon whom this remission will have a large effect, and that is the small householder whose income is under £500 a year, and who exists to an immense extent. I received a letter the other day from one of these householders, in which the writer said—
" The news is too good to be true.' I have invested my money in house property, and it costs me about 8 per cent. in repairs. I am told I am going to have an allowance of 10 per cent., and the news is too good to be true."
I wrote back to say—
"The news is better than you believe; you will get 16⅔ per cent."
said, he must confess he was limiting his observations to the abatements to be allowed to those who paid under Schedule A on land. It was true as regarded houses, and here he might say that he hoped the right hon. Gentle-man would arrange his plan so that, where land and houses formed part of the estate, there should be no difficulty in arriving at the value of the one and the other, because he could foresee some difficulty where a man had taken a house, say, with 100 acres of land, the rent of which was fixed for the whole of it, there being no separate tenancy as regarded the land and the house. Unless some arrangement were made for the apportionment of the rental of the house and upon the land separately, he did not quite see how the separation would be made.
* : I can tell the right hon. Gentleman at once what will be done. In a great number of cases the allowance is 10 per cent. for land with houses, but on land without houses it is 5 per cent., and I should be extremely glad to make it 5 per cent. on land and 10 per cent. on land with houses.
said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to be in an extremely conciliatory mood, and was prepared to take anything from that side of the House that would give him a little more money. With regard to the allowances on houses, the right hon. Gentleman proposed to allow one-sixth. No doubt that was a considerable advantage as compared with the position in which these people had been placed hitherto; but he noticed that the right hon. Gentleman did not contemplate any advantage going to the person who paid the rent, but all going into the pocket of the owner. Even in the case of the very large abatement of 16 per cent., the additional penny which was previously to be imposed would absorb from 11 to 12 per cent. of it. He must say a word with regard to the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to spirits. He thought that anyone who knew anything about trade would agree in this, that there was nothing so injurious to trade as uncertainty as to what was going to happen. He admitted that, in one sense, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had removed that uncertainty, but he did not think that having removed the uncertainty he had placed himself or his Budget in any better position. He said he thought the right hon. Gentleman had to some extent removed that uncertainty, because he thought the country would understand that the right hon. Gentleman had yielded to the pressure and had announced his decision that the 6d. additional duty he was going to put on spirits was to cease on the 31st of March. But the country would understand not only that it was to cease on the 31st of March, but that the right hon. Gentleman, if in his present position next year, would not reimpose it.
Certainly not.
thought that the right hon. Gentleman had made a very important admission. Those who looked upon the tax as for one year only would now understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he were in his present position next year, meant to reimpose the tax.
No, no.
said, the right hon. Gentleman could not have it both ways.
I beg pardon. The right hon. Gentleman says, first of all, that I will not reimpose the tax, and then that I will. On the contrary, I have said that I will keep the question entirely open.
said, the right hon. Gentleman would, at all events, allow him to differ in opinion with him. He would put it in this alternative way. Take a man engaged in this business; he had, at all events, the chance that the right hon. Gentleman would not reimpose the tax next year, and, therefore, the whole inducement to a man in the trade was that he should take as little spirits out of bond during the current year as possible.
What do you say to tea?
said, he remembered that when at the Treasury they had a great run on tea before the Budget. But the Tea Duty did not expire with the financial year. Now that the right hon. Gentleman had announced that the Spirit Duty was to lapse on the 31st of March —not on the Budget day, but before it— no one would make large clearances before the end of the financial year, but would defer as far and as much as they possibly could taking out their delivery until after the 31st of March.
The right hon. Gentleman seems to forget that all this on which he wastes his indignation applies equally to the Tea Duty, which ceases on the 31st of March.
No; on the 31st of August.
thought the right hon. Gentleman would see that he was perfectly justified in the view he was taking; that the very illustration of tea which the right hon. Gentleman himself put forward was protected by carrying on the duty proposals to avoid the difficulty of the lapse of duty, and yet here they had the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, in deference to pressure that had been put upon him—[ Cries of "Oh! "]—he did not say it in any offensive way, he hoped, but he meant the right hon. Gentleman had found himself justified in yielding to the representations made to him, and had publicly pledged himself that this duty was to cease on the 31st of March.
No, I have not.
said, that in answer to a question from that Bench to-day the right hon. Gentleman said it was to cease at the end of the financial year.
No, no.
said, that was what the right hon. Gentleman said in answer to a question. But it was of interest to every Member in the House that the Revenue of the country should not be placed in this unfortunate position, and, therefore, if he had succeeded in clearing up what was doubtful, he had gained some advantage.
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for raising this point. All I am pledged to is this—not at the present time, and during the inquiry into the incidence of this tax, to make this a permanent tax. I am not pledged in any way to make the Spirit Duty end on any particular day. I shall adopt whatever course may be most convenient and safe for the Revenue.
was sure they were very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation, because he thought the right hon. Gentleman would see that if he had stated the case as strongly as it was supposed to be— namely, that the 6d. additional duty was not to extend beyond the present financial year, that it must have ceased and ended on the 31st of March, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would see, in view of the Budget not being introduced before the 31st of March, that would be an impossible date unless the Revenue of the country was to suffer a large diminution. In connection with that, he was sure the right hon. Gentleman would look carefully to the terms of his Resolution with regard to the Spirit Duty, and see what time it had been taken up to, or, at all events, would see it was made clear in his Bill that he was not going to tie his own hands without knowing it.
The Resolution has no date. I shall carefully consider in the Bill what is the proper date, but the Resolution covers a perpetual date.
said, that if the Resolution was so drawn, and the Bill followed the Resolution, and if there were no pledges which the right hon. Gentleman felt himself under—if he had given no answers to questions which placed him in any difficulty—then, of course, the objection with regard to this to some extent fell to the ground. He ventured to say that even the announcement that the right hon. Gentleman's mind was an open one on the question, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had already across the floor of this House stated, in answer to questions put by Irish Members, that the tax was only to be for a year, he thought that would be interpreted. by everyone in the trade that, at all events, they had a chance that the 6d. would not be imposed next year, and therefore would delay, as much as possible, the clearance of spirits during the current year. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the 6d. as being a comparatively small amount, but when they considered that an additional 6d. was a charge upon an article that did not represent in value more than something like 2s. 6d. or 3s. per gallon to the manufacturer of the article, if the right hon. Gentleman was going to take it out of the pockets of the manufacturer he would be taking away something like 20 per cent. in the value of the article. That was a considerable sum, and he did not think it was likely to come entirely out of the pocket of the manufacturer, but would be borne by the consumer of the article. He repeated, he was glad to hear what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had now said, because his speech and his careless dealing with the important question of the Revenue of this country had left the impression upon his mind that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to occupy his present position next year.
I most sincerely hope not.
was sure that so far as the right hon. Gentleman personally was concerned they should be glad to see him occupying that position, but politically it was quite another question. He was glad if he had tended in any way to make clear what was in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's mind, and which he thought was not clear to the House before.
observed that it was desirable that the point which had been raised should be cleared up. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when asked whether the additional tax on spirits was to be imposed only to the end of the financial year, said—
"I have already answered a question in the House to that effect."
There was an impression in the House that the right hon. Gentleman had distinctly stated that the tax was to be imposed to the end of the year. If that was not the Chancellor of the Exchequer's purpose he could only imagine that the right hon. Gentleman had since changed his mind. The right hon. Gentleman would, no doubt, feel it to be his duty to remove any misapprehension that might exist on the question, and the Committee ought to know now whether the duty was to be imposed only up to the 31st of March or up to the end of the financial year.
said, he always understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to speak exactly in the sense in which he had spoken that night. The right hon. Gentleman had not pledged himself to take off this 6d. or not to put on two or three sixpences next year. It was at all events clear, from the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the right hon. Gentleman the late Chief Secretary for Ireland, that that was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman's mind was left perfectly open on the question. As to whether the date should be the 31st of March, the 31st of May, or the 30th of April, was a detail which he did not suppose anybody would bind the Chancellor of the Exchequer to. He must say that this continual habit of mounting up the duty on Ireland sixpence by sixpence was becoming fearful. He did not know whether he would not sooner have 5s. put on at once instead of this continual increase of it by sixpences. No licensed victualler knew how much be was to charge a glass, and no one knew whether to give up whisky and take to some other form of alcoholic refreshment. He knew of no other article which was taxed so much as whisky. ["Tobacco!"] Yes, it was a dreadful thing taxing tobacco so much. He got no consolation from the fact that beer was taxed 6d. a barrel, because the Irish equivalent to beer was porter, which would also be taxed to a like extent. He thought this was a flaw in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget. They might all be unanimous as to the right hon. Gentleman's proposals if he would drop this little addition to the whisky and porter. They knew the object of this tax. He would merely say that it was to get five ironclad ships. That was a laudable object, but he thought it was rather hard on the Irish taxpayer who, perhaps, got the least value out of the ships that he should have to pay the principal. The amount was very considerable. If it fell on the consumer £100,000 a year additional duty would be extracted from Ireland, but if it fell on the producer—a good deal of whisky being exported from Ireland—it would amount to £200,000. To extract such a large amount each year from a poor country like Ireland would seriously affect the general prosperity of that country. Taking whisky and porter together, this increased tax would represent au additional taxation on Ireland of between £175,000 and £250,000. He objected to this very strongly. It would be different if the country was to have a share in the expenditure of the money so raised, but unfortunately Ireland would reap little or no benefit from it. They had no working dockyards in Ireland, and the money raised from Ireland by means of the whisky and porter would go to enrich the already comparatively rich working people at the dockyards in England. There was some time before the Budget Bill was passed, and he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reconsider his decision in this matter, though he was afraid he would not. The right hon. Gentleman, in replying to the hon. Member for Dublin the other night, pointed out that Irishmen did not pay as much taxation on alcoholic liquors per head of the population as Englishmen and Scotchmen, and he seemed to think they ought to screw up the Irish taxpayer. There were two ways of screwing him up. The first was by encouraging him to drink more, and the second, by making him pay more for what he did drink. The latter was the way adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Irish people were very temperate, more so than the English people, and very much more so than the Scotch people. That was shown by the statistics. However, he had no great belief in these statistics, and he would acknowledge that if Irishmen had as much money in their pockets as Englishmen and Scotchmen they would drink quite as much. He claimed no superior virtue for the Irishman on that point, who, he believed, was pretty much in the same boat as the Englishman and Scotchman. Of course, the Scotchman was a little farther North, and ought to drink a little more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think he ought to get rather more per head out of the population of Ireland. That was a very bad prospect for the Irish people. He dared say that by the imposition of this large tax upon whisky they would drive the people from whisky into porter. That was bad for the distillers. England used to drink claret, and then, for political reasons, it was forced by politicians and statesmen to drink Spanish wines, and it took to port and sherry purely politically, for the moment the right hon. Member for Midlothian took off the duty on claret the people began to revert to their original taste for French wines. They could, therefore, change the tastes of a people by taxation; but he held that the taxation proposed was likely to very much deteriorate the whisky trade in Ireland. There was a spirit called German spirit, which was very bad and very cheap. There was a way for the producers to recoup themselves for this extra 6d. For instance, if they put more of this German spirit in the Irish whisky they would produce a cheaper article, and he was afraid more German spirit would be put in, people thus getting bad German spirit instead of good Irish whisky. One of the chief productions of Ireland would be very much injured by this increase of 6d. It was with great regret that he pointed out any blot in the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman, and he asked him to reconsider his position and see if it was not possible to take off or postpone the tax on porter and whisky.
* was happy to hear that the hon. and gallant Gentleman understood his (Sir W. Harcourt's) statement exactly in the sense in which he made it. First of all, it was not proposed to make this duty a permanent tax, leaving it a perfectly open question whether it should be renewed in another year or not. He had not fixed a date for the termination of the tax, and whether it would be again renewed would depend upon the considerations which might be properly urged against such a course. In the Bill the date would be fixed, and it might still be an annual tax, just as the Tea Duty was now. It might be renewed every year, just as the Tea Duty was. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had very properly reminded him that the Tea Duty was fixed to continue considerably after the determination of the financial year. He thought that was a very proper matter to consider, and he was very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman opposite for having pressed upon his mind the importance of that being done in this case. He could assure him the matter should not be lost sight of. He hoped, therefore, it would not be thought necessary further to discuss the Spirit Duty on that occasion, as the matter could be fully discussed on the clauses of the Bill.
said, he thought that everyone who was present during the earlier portion of the Debate must feel with the Leader of the Opposition that the powerful speech of the right hon. Member for St. George's had remained practically unanswered. That right hon. Member had pointed out with great force the objections which had been stated by the right hon. Member for Midlothian, and had received no clear or sufficient reply. He had understood that the present Government were going to follow the policy of the right hon. Member for Midlothian, but it was evident that in finance, at any rate, they were following not only a different, but a diametrically opposite policy. [Sir W. HARCOURT: Certainly not.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he differed altogether from the right hon. Member for St. George's as to the increase of deposits in the savings banks, and that he rejoiced at it and saw no risk. They would all rejoice if the increase had arisen from the increased prosperity of the working classes; but, having regard to the large amount of the individual deposits, he believed the real reason was that the savings banks were allowing a higher rate than could be obtained elsewhere. The circumstance did not affect London banks, as savings banks did not come into competition with them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that there was no risk, because savings banks held large amounts on demand. Other banks, however, held reserves, whilst the savings banks held none.
Their reserve is the credit of the British Empire.
said, that of course no one could entertain any doubt as to the certainty of ultimate payment, but that was no reason for not keeping a reserve. For greater security he would suggest that the Government should consider whether a certain notice ought not to be required before the withdrawal of any sum exceeding a certain amount. He wished also to say a word as to the incidence of the Income Tax on woodlands. Woodlands, he need hardly say, were generally managed and retained in hand by the owner. The probable annual value was arrived at, and the tax was taken on that under Schedule A. That was right, but then he was also assessed on half the value under Schedule B as his own tenant, so that he paid twice over—not, indeed, double the amount, but half again as much. This seemed a manifest injustice, and he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look into the question. But he rose mainly to move an Amendment as regarded Schedule B, which dealt with the Income Tax on farmers. The words in this Resolution were—
"In England the duty of fourpence; in Scotland and Ireland respectively the duty of threepence."
Now, he would like to ask the Committee and the Government very respectfully, Why should we make the English farmer pay a higher rate than his Scotch or Irish competitor? When Sir R. Peel proposed the Income Tax in 1842 he proposed the same rate for the whole of Great Britain. The tax was not till afterwards extended to Ireland. But owing, he supposed, to Scotch pressure during the Debate, Sir R. Peel finally agreed to a difference. No doubt the idea was that an English farmer made a larger profit in proportion to his rent than the Scotch or Irish farmer. That may or may not have been the case in 1842. They had no evidence on the point, nor was it material. No one would say that the English farmer was so prosperous now. He was very fortunate if he made any profit at all. He was happy to believe that the Scotch and Irish farmers had been more fortunate. It had been stated as a reason for the difference that in England the repairs were made by the landlord, but this would be a reason for making the English farmer pay on a smaller, not a larger, proportion of the rent. All he asked was that all farmers should be placed on the same footing. Would anybody tell him that there was any great difference between the farmers in Northumberland and in Midlothian? Were the farmers in Scotland so much less intelligent than those of England or Ireland that they could be supposed to make a lower rate of profit? He proposed, therefore, that they should omit the words "the duty of fourpence," so that all farmers in the United Kingdom, whether in England, Scotland, or Ireland, should all pay at the same rate. It scarcely seemed to him that he need occupy time in advocating the Amendment. The onus probandi rested with those who opposed. Why should English and Welsh farmers be placed to this disadvantage? His Amendment was a simple act of justice. He moved it in order to place English and Welsh farmers on the same footing as those of Scotland and Ireland.
Amendment proposed, in lines 13 and 14, to leave out the words "the Duty of Four Pence "; "In."— ( Sir J. Lubbock. )
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
I think my right hon. Friend ought to have understood why this distinction was made. He has been here for many years, during which we have had the advantage of hearing him on many questions relating to the Income Tax, but this is the first time he has made this proposal or raised this point.
said, he had called attention to it several times and asked for the reasons for the difference.
A Government were in Office for five years which certainly had the interests of the agriculturists at heart, but they never made any difference in the tax. Why? They had the power, if they had chosen to exercise it, to equalise these duties. It was now asked why this distinction was made. The reason was that, whereas in Scotland and Ireland the tenant as a rule made the repairs, in England they were made by the landlord. The tenant did not do the repairs in England. Now really I apologise to my right hon. Friend. I should have soon have thought of informing him that twice two makes four. He asks me in solemn tones the reason for this distinction; but the reason is so obvious that it only requires to be stated. As the Irish and Scotch tenants have the burden of the repairs they are called upon to pay less than the English agriculturist. Since the days when George III. wondered how the apple got into the dumpling I have never heard such a simple question as that put by my right hon. Friend. Everybody knows that the principle to which the right hon. Gentleman objects has been acted upon time after time by Liberal and Conservative Governments, and everybody knows that hon. Gentle- men opposite who claim to represent the agricultural interest have admitted the justice of the distinction, and have never proposed the alteration which is now brought forward by my right hon. Friend.
said, he should like to say a few words in support of the Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that everyone who knew anything of agriculture was aware that the Irish and Scotch farmers paid for repairs, and that the English farmers did not. His experience was directly opposite. In his part of the country it was the landlord that found the material and the landlord that did the repairs. He, therefore, failed to see why English farmers should be taxed 4d., and Irish and Scotch farmers only 3d. He had no doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished to drive the last nail into the agricultural coffin, but he did not understand why the right hon. Gentleman wished to handicap English agriculturists, and to place them in a worse position than agriculturists in Ireland and Scotland.
thought that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look into his answer to his right hon. Friend the Member for London University he would see it was one of the most extraordinary which could have been suggested. To put it to a practical test, take the case of a man who took a farm in England, for which he paid £400 a year, the landlord doing the repairs. If in the same farm he undertook to do the repairs, he would pay a rental, say, of £300. Under the English system the rent would be £400, and it would under the Scotch system be £300, although the profit would be absolutely the same. But the Scotch or Irish farmers had not only not to pay more Income Tax on £300 to make up for the reduction, but had absolutely to pay less. It should really be the other way, even according to the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had any ground, the man who paid the lower rental because he undertook to make the repairs ought to pay Income Tax at a higher and not at a lower rate. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman was really against the right hon. Gentleman's proposition, for he had shown that instead of taxing the English farmer higher than the Scotch tenant he ought to tax the English tenant lower. His right hon. Friend who brought forward the Amendment did not wish to establish any inequality of taxation. He simply wanted to put the English farmer upon the same level as the Irish and Scotch farmers. There was no reason whatever why this anomaly, which was of old standing, should be continued. The English farmer had borne this anomaly for a very long time, and he remonstrated now because of the depressing circumstances through which he was now passing. He did not wish the Chancellor of the Exchequer to commit himself at once to a decision upon this point, but there was an anomaly to be examined and an injustice which ought to be redressed.
I have promised to carefully consider this matter before the clause comes on in the Income Tax Bill, and to give most favourable consideration to the question. If, consistently with the due balance of the Budget, I can give this relief to the agricultural interest in England I will be very glad to do so.
* said, there was a good deal to be advanced in favour of putting the Income Tax on English farmers on the same footing as it was in the case of Scotch and Irish farmers. No doubt, in past years this difference was owing to the fact that in the Scotch and Irish leases the tenants agreed to do the repairs. But that had gone out of fashion, and as he believed that all farmers—English, Scotch, and Irish—were now on the same footing in the matter, there was no reason for the difference in the Income Tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had laughed at the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for London University, and had said that for years and years this difference in the Income Tax had been imposed. The question of this difference between English and Scotch and Irish farmers was raised last year, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer then said he was unable to explain the origin of the difference. Now they had the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he would consider the matter, and, if the consideration were favourable to the English farmers, they would feel indebted to him. He wished to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the relief given under Schedule A. For several years he had tried to press upon Chancellors of the Exchequer that it was hard upon landlords that they should have to pay the whole tax without deductions for outgoings and repairs. Hitherto landlords has been ignored altogether by Chancellors of the Exchequer, but they would be grateful for this relief of 10 per cent., and only wished it could have been more.
said, there might be reason for equalising the Income Tax paid by the fanners of the three countries, but they must also maintain equality between farmers and other traders. Why should there be a Schedule B at all? Why should not farmers, like other people, pay taxes on their profits? By a change made by the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, the option was given to farmers to have themselves assessed under Schedule D; but very few farmers had availed themselves of that alternative. The inference he drew was that they found it to their advantage to have an artificial estimate of their income rather than submit to assessment by the Income Tax Commissioners.
said, he was obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having consented to consider the case of the English farmers, and under the circumstances he would not press the Amendment.
said, there were other interests to be considered besides those of the farmers; and he doubted whether a case could be made out for relieving farmers from any portion of the Income Tax. When the Income Tax was being raised they could not afford to be specially favourable to any class. What he would suggest was that the Scotch and Irish farmers should be brought up to the same level as the English farmers, rather than the English farmers should be reduced to the level of the Scotch and Irish. The position seemed to him to be this—that while the trades and industries of the country had been subjected to an increase in the Income Tax, farmers were kept at the old rate. Distress prevailed in many industries; and the question might be raised whether exemption could be extended to people engaged in trade as well as to farmers. He thought a special exemption was an injustice to all other taxpayers.
* said, that Scotch farmers were entitled to a lower rate of Income Tax than English farmers, because in Scotland a tenant paid his rent and one-half the local rates; whereas an English tenant paid in addition to his rent the tithe and the whole of the local rates. The Scotch farmer was entitled to consideration, as the teind and the half of the rates were paid by him in his rent.
said, that as the Representative of an English agricultural constituency, he wished to emphasize the fact that an English Radical Member had objected to the reduction of the Income Tax on English farmers. That showed the support English agriculturists were likely to get from English Radicals. In the present depressed condition of agriculture, when farmers found it difficult to make ends meet, they had a prominent Member of the Radical Party—who really had the dictation of the arrangements of the Budget—suggesting an increased taxation on the farmers, and it, therefore, behoved the friends of the agriculturists to raise a note of alarm, warning them of the mercy they were likely to receive from the Radical Government. He should like to know whether he would be in Order in asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question about the Death Duties, as he would not be able to attend on the night on which the Death Duties were to be discussed.
The hon. Gentleman would not be in Order in discussing under this Amendment anything except that which ' relates to the Income Tax.
* : There is one point in reference to the Income Tax which I am anxious to bring under the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With regard to the pro-posed deductions under Schedule A—10 per cent. being allowed in the case of land and 16 2–3 in the case of houses—I wish to direct the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Report of the Select Committee which sat in 1867 to consider the Valuation Bill, and of which the Secretary to the Treasury and myself are the only surviving Members in the House. It recommended greater reductions and a far larger classification than that adopted by the right hon. Gentleman. It recommended that for rating purposes there should be a deduction of 5 per cent. on land without buildings, of 7½ per cent. on woodlands, of 10 per cent. on laud with farmhouses or outbuildings; of 25 per cent. on houses and buildings without land other than gardens when the gross value of these houses was under £8, and of 15 per cent. when the gross value was £8 and upwards; and of 33½ per cent. on mills and manufactories. smelting furnaces, kilns, brickyards, mines, and quarries. That statement shows how very incomplete is the classification proposed by the right hon. Gentleman to do fair justice to all properties comprised under Schedule A. I am aware that in the Income Tax Returns Schedule A is divided into lands and houses, but surely that is not an insurmountable obstacle to a further division, and I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman should not adopt the precise classification which I have just read. Under the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman all houses are to be classed together, but it is well known that small tenement property costs much more in repairs than larger and more valuable property. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give his favourable attention to this point before we come to the discussion of the Bill, so that the deductions may represent what is a proper allowance on all property under Schedule A.
It would be more in Order that the Amendment of the right hon. Member for the University of London should be disposed of before the Committee proceed further. Do I understand that the right hon. Member desires to withdraw the Amendment?
Yes, Sir.
said, he should like to say one word on the extraordinary principle which had been laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was that the English farmer should pay 50 per cent. calculated on the gross rent, while the Scotch farmer paid only 33 per cent., calculated on the net rent. A more extraordinary financial arrangement than that he had never heard of. It seemed to him that the Scotch farmer should pay considerably more on the net, and the English farmer considerably less on the gross rent.
said that, as a landlord in South Wales, he had just signed three leases on the basis of the landlord doing the repairs. He desired to know, therefore, whether the Income Tax was imposed on the basis of the tenant doing the repairs, or on the basis of the landlord doing the repairs? which was a most important consideration in South Wales, where all the landlords did the repairs.
I will deal with several of the points that have been raised when the Bill is brought in, but I would now appeal to the Committee to allow the Amendment of the right hon. Member for the University of London to be withdrawn in order to get on with other matters.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question again proposed.
The point which has been raised by the right hon. Member for Bristol is one of the greatest importance. It is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that it is exceedingly difficult to say what the exact allowance should be. The proposals the right hon. Gentleman has submitted, however, would be very much less in the interest of land than those which I propose, though they would no doubt be more favourable to houses. The particular in which the present proposal differs most largely from those recommended by the Committee is with respect to mills, but it will be borne in mind that the cost of repairs in mills is already deducted under Schedule D, which deals with profits. We cannot, therefore, allow the deduction to be made again under Schedule A. I beg to assure hon. Gentlemen that though they assume, altogether unjustly, that the Liberal Party are adverse to the interests of the land, I am not so. I have gone as far as I felt justified in going in making allowances favourable to the views and interests of the landowners, as I regard the land as one of the most important interests, and as, certainly, the most distressed interest in the country. That has been the spirit in which I have dealt with the matter.
said, he thought the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken in regard to the allowance for mills and such like buildings, as everything would depend on the opinion of the officials. In the matter of machinery, and other matters relating to mills, the allowance was often an accidental freak of the surveyor in the district. Sometimes a liberal allowance was made, but sometimes the allowance was not liberal. He thought there should be a definite rule laid down as to what the allowance should be, so that the different classes of property should have a different allowance according to a fair and equitable scale.
said, that in regard to the Beer Duty they would be able to satisfy the Chancellor of the Exchequer that not merely barley growers but other agriculturists would suffer more than he would admit. He (Mr. Barton) was interested in the Irish brewers. He did not understand how the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to calculate that the duty on beer would only produce £580,000 or £600,000. According to figures furnished to him, the additional Beer Duty would yield to the revenue about £800,000, or £200,000 more than the Chancellor of the Exchequer's estimate.
said, it would be out of Order to go into that question on the Resolution before the Committee.
Are we not on the Budget generally?
No. The Income Tax Resolution.
said, he did not wish to shut out any point on which anyone wanted to have information. With regard to the calculation referred to by the hon. Member opposite he thought the Irish brewers did very well. Guinness's, for example, need not fear a tax of 6d. per barrel on porter. If the hon. Member was right that the duty he had put on would fetch more than his advisers calculated he could only say that he should be delighted to find it so.
hoped to be able to show at the proper time that the suggestion that even a large brewery like Guinness's could bear a tax such as that proposed was founded on a fallacy. Guinness's consisted of thousands of small owners, who only obtained a moderate dividend upon their capital.
What per cent?
Four per cent.
The percentage depends upon what they gave for their shares.
said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that there had been a large increase in the amount of beer consumed, but without wishing to dogmatise, from the accounts he had received he believed that brewing had shared in the general depression. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman on some future occasion to give details as to the increase in the duty he had mentioned.
said, that in regard to the Income Tax in relation to mills and factories he had understood the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that, inasmuch as the repairs of mills were calculated as part of the expenditure of the millowner, the latter were not entitled to special consideration in the matter of reductions on rent. He understood that the millowners kept up the buildings out of revenue, but the question of the assessment in regard to rentals was a totally different question. A millowner assessed by a local assessor at, say, £1,000 a year annually paid Income Tax on the £1,000. As he had understood the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Bristol, it was that this £1,000 should be subject to larger reductions than ordinary house property. That, it seemed to him, was a fair contention. It was shown to be fair by the authority the Chancellor of the Exchequer had quoted—namely, that of the Committee presided over by Mr. Hubbard, which sat in 1861. The right hon. Gentleman had not gone far enough in accepting the recommendations of that Committee. He (Mr. Renshaw) thought that if there was to be any re-arrangement of the Income Tax made in respect of lands and house property special and generous consideration should be extended to millowners, who had to incur large expenditure in respect of repairs.
* said, he understood the position to be this: When the owner of a mill worked it he naturally included all repairs in his general expenses, and in reduction of his profits and the Income Tax he paid under Schedule D. When, on the other hand, the owner of a mill did not work it, he had to pay on the gross rental, and received no allowance for the repairs he had to do out of the rental. In a case of that sort, he (Mr. Johnson-Ferguson) did not think the 16 per cent. allowed would cover the expenditure. As the right hon. Gentleman had said, in most cases the mills were worked by the owners. Another point he would call attention to was the question of the depreciation of the machinery. If the owner worked it, he could put down depreciation at from 5 to 7½ per cent. as ordinary working expenses. On the other hand, if the owner let the machinery, though he was entitled to a certain amount for depreciation, owing to some Departmental red-tapeism, he did not get it in reduction of his Property Tax—he had to pay the Income Tax under Schedule A in full, and then he had to go through all the wearisome detail of claiming the deduction from the Treasury. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would bear this in mind.
* said, that the deductions in respect of machinery and things which perished were very inadequate in many cases. Machinery might become obsolete in 10 years—indeed, people who understood the matter thoroughly said that the life of machinery should only be reckoned at eight years. These things became very serious in view of an Income Tax that was a really a War Tax. In the case of mines the Income Tax was charged on the profits without deducting anything, in spite of the fact that the capital originally invested to start the business was perishing every year. A prudent man would always lay by a certain amount of capital to replace the capital which was lost. It might be said that a sufficient amount was allowed for depreciation of machinery, but when they came to other things, of which mines might be taken as typical, it was a hardship that no sort of allowance was given.
said, he had paid a great deal of attention to this matter. He was aware it was of great consequence, and he would carefully examine it before it was discussed in the Bill. He hoped that, under the circum- stances, the House would now allow the Income Tax Resolution to be taken, as the noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Hamilton) had something to say in relation to a Resolution which would follow.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, That towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in " The Income Tax Act, 1853," the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say):—
For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the Duty of Eight Pence;
And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act,—
In England, the Duty of Four Pence;
In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Duty of Three Pence.
Amendment of Law.
Resolved, That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to the Customs and the Inland Revenue.—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
Suez Canal Shares.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of all dividends or other moneys received by the Treasury after the 1st day of July, 1894, in respect of Suez Canal Shares."—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
This may be a convenient opportunity to obtain from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer a little information— information which he showed considerable reluctance to give me last Session. We understand that the whole capital value of the Suez Canal shares— £4,000,000—bought 19 years ago has now been repaid to the Treasury by the Sinking Fund, so that the 176,000 shares purchased in 1875 are now the property of the nation without having cost the nation a farthing. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer assent to that?
assented.
Then, the second point is this: These shares, we understand, are now entitled to the whole dividend payable by the Suez Canal Company.
Yes; after July 1.
That dividend, I understand, is reckoned at about 15 per cent.—that is to say, that nearly £600,000 will come into the British Exchequer from that source this year.
Only half this year.
From the 1st of July it will come in at that rate. So that these Suez Canal shares, the purchase of which was described at the time by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian as a snare and a financial delusion, and which was denounced by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer in stronger language, are now the property of the nation without having cost the nation a single farthing. They are worth some £18,000,000, and are bringing into the British Exchequer from July 1 of this year some £600,000 a year.
Having obtained that information from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for which I express my gratitude, I will not further trouble the House.
Resolution agreed to.
Imperial and Naval Defence Acts.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of any sum by which the aggregate payments made to the Naval Defence Account, under section two of The Naval Defence Act, 1889,' may exceed the actual expenditure on contract ships authorised by that Act; and to provide that the further instalments payable to the said Account under the said section shall cease."—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
* : I would explain that under the Naval Defence Act the Treasury were empowered to borrow on the Annuity of £1,428,571, sufficient to enable them to meet the authorised expenditure of £10,000,000 on contract-built ships. The amount so borrowed between 1889 and 1893 was £3,146,000. This sum, together with the five instalments of the Annuity, amounting to £7,142,857, was paid into the Naval Defence Account, making a total of £10,288,857. There was thus paid to that Account £288,857 more than the £10,000,000 authorised. Under the present law, that £289,000, would have become applicable to repay the loan of £3,146,000. But as the whole of the loan is, under the Budget proposal, to be paid off by the Sinking Fund, the sum is not wanted for that purpose. So I propose to restore it to the Exchequer. It becomes a sort of benefit of which I have laid hold.
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation, which anticipates, to some extent, what I have to say. The right hon. Gentleman has at least 10 times asserted that so long as he is Chancellor of the Exchequer he will meet the Expenditure of the year out of Revenue, but he has borrowed £289,000 for the purpose of meeting the Expenditure of this year, increasing the Debt in the Consolidated Fund by that amount, and consequently has violated in the most open manner the solemn pledge he has over and over again given to the House. The transaction is really a very simple one. Under the Naval Defence Act a certain expenditure was authorised which was to be contracted for in five years, and the Annuities to cover that expenditure were to run for seven years. The expenditure of the first five years was in the form of grants, paid out of income, and the difference between expenditure and income was made good out of advances made by the Treasury, but Parliament provided that as the balances accrued they should be applied to the reduction of the advances made. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is attempting to wind up this account in a manner never heard of. There is £1,146,000 deficiency on one part of the account, and he transfers that to the Consolidated Fund, and these subsequent Resolutions make the Consolidated Fund responsible for the payment of the principal and interest of the debt so transferred. Then he turns to the credit side of the account, and quietly collars £2,000,000, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Revenue of the year, and pitchforks this into the Revenue, and so establishes a surplus of £1,291,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, therefore, is deliberately creating £289,000 more debt than would have been created if the present Act was allowed to run its course. I say that such action as that is unheard-of and altogether indefensible. Now I propose to amend this Resolution in such a way as to provide that while the Chancellor of the Exchequer should wind up the Naval Defence Act, it shall be done in such a manner that only the actual deficiency on the account shall be transferred to the Consolidated Fund. If the Resolution is carried as it stands, it merely amounts to a manipulation of accounts for the purpose of manufacturing a surplus for the forthcoming year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree with me that great care should be taken not to interfere with the intention of Parliament in these matters. If proceedings of this kind can be permitted, there is no reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not bring the whole of the Sinking Fund into his Revenue for this year. I am aware that this is a complicated matter, and I know also that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had a great deal to do in the preparation of this matter; but I am sure if he has looked into the matter he will know that my statement is accurate. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer finds out that I am accurate in my statement, he must assimilate his practice to his professions, and accept my Amendment, and wind up the Naval Defence Act without pitchforking into the Revenue of this year £289,000 which does not belong to it, and which can only be appropriated by a similar increase of the National Debt. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept my suggestion, and so act in accordance with the unbroken practice of the Treasury and of Parliament in dealing with funds of this kind.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "expedient," in line 1, to the word "and," in line 4, in order to insert the words
"To close on the 31st of March, 1894, the Naval Defence Account as established by Section 2 of ' The Naval Defence Act, 1889.' "— ( Lord G. Hamilton. )
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question? "
* : The proposal of the noble Lord is that I should agree to the creation of a deficit. I regard this Resolution as the corollary and natural result of putting an end to the Naval Defence Accounts. If the House is of opinion that they would like a Budget of this character to create a deficit, of course it is open for hon. Members to vote for the noble Lord's Amendment. The Amendment of the noble Lord is absolutely fatal to all our proposals, and I cannot consent to a course which would produce a deficit instead of a surplus for the year. When the noble Lord talks about winding up the Naval Defence Accounts in this way, he knows that it would throw the great responsibility upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer of raising another £2,000,000 by taxation. I must leave the House to judge as to the wisdom of a proposal of that kind.
The deficit with which the right hon. Gentleman has threatened the House would not be created by the action of the noble Lord. The deficit is there already, and is the result of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's own proposals. The right hon. Gentleman gets rid of it by applying a portion of the funds of the country, which last year and not this year was intended for payment of debt to the Revenue of this year. There never was a more extraordinary revelation of strange methods of finance. The Sinking Fund of last year is applicable to the reduction of Debt this year; but I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to bring in a portion of the Sinking Fund of last year to meet the expenditure of this year. There is just as much statutory provision made for the payment of this debt, which the right hon. Gentleman calls mine, as for the other which belongs to the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors. He forgets that in regard to the Localisation of Forces Bill precisely the same course was followed by his late Chief. I should like to know what the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian would be in reference to a transaction under which money which ought to have been used for payment of debt last year is diverted from its object and thrown into the income of the current year. The right hon. Gentleman closes the Naval Defence Accounts a year back instead of closing them now, so that he may collar the assets which should have gone towards the reduction of the debt. The Naval Defence Act had £289,000 applicable to it last year, and therefore the debt which has been transferred should have been that much smaller. But that does not suit the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wants to keep the assets that ought to have been raised last year, and so he magnifies the debt. I compliment him upon the ingenuity of his device. With reference to the observation made earlier in the evening. I may say that if I have attacked the right hon. Gentleman's financial purity it is because he has insisted so much upon possessing it. He treats me as a miserable sinner in that respect, but I have never set up these high doctrines of the right hon. Gentleman; and what is ridiculous is that awhile making these professions the Chancellor of the Exchequer is taking funds which belong to last year, and which ought to have been paid in that year, and appropriating them to the purposes of this year. I am only surprised that the authorities at the Treasury, who are extremely severe in maintaining the traditions of their Office, should be a party to something which entirely upsets every principle of finance, and lend their sanction to a plan which will be an encouragement to subsequent Chancellors of the Exchequer to ease their expenditure by taking assets which are set apart for the payment of debt and transferring them from one year to another. I am glad that attention has been drawn to this matter. When we have the Bill before us we shall see what course we shall take on this matter.
* said, that he thought before a ready assent was given by the House to the arguments offered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer he should bring forward some stronger ground than the mere statement that he had included sums which properly belonged to last year's finance in order to equalise his Budget.
said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's had diminished the reduction of National Debt in order to remedy taxation. The surplus must have gone to the reduction of Debt; but, as a follower and an admirer of the finance of his right hon. Friend, he should be sorry to believe that there had been any shortcoming in the diminution of the National Debt, and he did not believe it; and in order to prove it he would like to point out one or two facts to show—
I would ask, Mr. Chairman, whether this is in Order —to discuss the diminution of the National Debt under former Administrations?
I am merely answering what the right hon. Gentleman said. If it was in Order for him to make this attack upon this particular portion of the finance of his predecessor—
We have passed from the general discussion, and hon. Members must confine themselves entirely to this Amendment.
said, he thought it ought to go out to the public that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had set up so high a standard of financial purity, had had to acknowledge the borrowing of £289,000, without which, as he had told them, they would create a deficit which would be absolutely fatal to the finances of the year. He thought it was an interesting result of the somewhat long discussion which they had had that they had come to the absolute conclusion, acknowledged by both sides of the House, that the only way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could manage to balance his Budget was by borrowing this sum which he admitted did not belong to the income of the year. He thought they would remember this in the future when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being in opposition, was criticising the financial proposals of a Conservative Government.
said, this was not the only amount which the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad availed himself of arising out of the Naval Defence Act of 1889. Had it not been for the Naval Defence Act of 1889 and the Imperial Defence Act, which had been so much censured by the right hon. Gentleman, his position this year would have been that he would have had to provide £2,000,000 more in his Budget than as a fact he had had to do, for he had taken advantage of sums of money provided by his predecessors, including this £289,000, and the annuity of the Naval Defence Act, amounting to £1,429,000, as well as the Suez Canal dividend of £260,000—he had taken advantage of these sums which were in-tended by his predecessors to extinguish Debt to assist his Budget in the present year; and instead of applying these sums to the extinguishment of Debt, he had applied them to the year's expenditure, and had gone to the Sinking Fund to pay off the very Debt that these moneys were intended to provide out of taxation. The whole scheme was an indirect one for meeting the obligations of the year largely out of the Sinking Fund. It was clear that had it not been for the income coming to the Chancellor of the Exchequer through these three provisions—the Naval Defence Act, the Suez Canal Shares, and the surplus of the Naval Defence Act of £289,000— he would have had to provide additional taxation to the extent of nearly £2,000,000. That was fairly shown by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. In that statement the total expenditure of the year was placed at £94,175,000, which was the amount arrived at after allowing for differences made by reason of the Imperial Defence Act and the Naval Defence Act. Therefore, they had a statement of expenditure set out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer distinct and separate from the Imperial Defence Act and the Naval Defence Act. What would have been the revenue had these Acts not existed on the basis of last year's taxation? They had had it stated at £90,956,000. That sum included the provision made for the Naval Defence annuity of £1,429,000. So the Chancellor of the Exchequer found himself in this position, had there been no Imperial Defence Act and no Naval Defence Act, of having a revenue on the basis of last year's taxation of £89,527,000 as against his expenditure of £94,175,000, so that his deficit would have been £4,648,000. Towards that deficit all that the Chancellor of the Exchequer provided for in the shape of new taxation was an amount of £2,670,000, leaving a deficit of nearly £2,000,000, of which he had already spoken. By this fortuitous circumstance of the existence of a Naval Defence Act and an Imperial Defence Act that short provision which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been met with was made up by the annuity under the Naval Defence Act of £1,429,000, by the Suez Canal shares dividend of £260,000, and by the surplus amount on Naval Defence expenditure of £289,000. So that, in his opinion, the whole Budget was nothing more than a clever electioneering Budget. It was one in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took advantage of the legislation of his predecessors, so far as they assisted his present Budget, but at the same time he was not generous enough to acknowledge the advantages he had received from the amounts coming to him by reason of the existence of the Naval and Imperial Defence Acts.
said, he was very much disappointed at the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had hoped that when the matter had been pointed out to him he would have accepted the Amendment. His defence appeared to be that unless he was allowed to borrow these moneys in the way he proposed his Budget would be upset. He could only say that he trusted everybody had heard the right hon. Gentleman's defence, and that it would be remembered. Under the circumstances, he would not put the Committee to the trouble of a Division upon his Amendment, but would withdraw it and raise the matter again when the Bill was before the House.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question, put, and agreed to.
Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of any sum by which the aggregate payments made to the Naval Defence Account, under section 2 of " The Naval Defence Act, 1889," may exceed the actual expenditure on contract ships authorised by that Act; and to provide that the further instalments payable to the said Account under the said section shall cease.
Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the application of the old Sinking Fund and the new Sinking Fund in paying off the loans borrowed under Part II. 'of "The Imperial Defence Act of 1888," and under "The Naval Defence Act, 1889."
Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt, of the interest of the said loans."—( The Chancellor of the Exchequer. )
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Conciliation (Trade Disputes) Bill.—(No. 125.)
Second Reading. [Adjourned Debate.]
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [19th April], " That the Bill be now read a second time."
Question again proposed.
Debate resumed.
said, he had scarcely supposed the Government intended to go on with the Bill at this hour, as only three minutes were left for discussion. The other night, just before he sat down, he was saying that the Bill granted powers to the Board of Trade, which it already had, and which it already exercised. What would be the effect of putting into a Statute these powers which the Board of Trade already possessed? He supposed that in case of disputes the parties would look upon the Board of Trade as a body to which they might go for settlement, instead of coming to an arrangement among themselves. He suggested that it was very objectionable to do anything in the way of further mixing up officials of the Board of Trade, or any other Department, with trade disputes which might well be settled between the employers and employed by private Boards of Conciliation, which were being established in the districts occasionally affected by trade disputes. Since the Bill was discussed on Friday night they had had an opportunity of seeing an abstract of the Report of the Labour Commission; and he found from that abstract that the Report did not apear to approve of the suggestions made in the Bill. He also found, on looking further into the Bill, that it contained clauses for conciliation; but, as a matter of fact, arbitration was only by inference mentioned once or twice in the whole measure. In Section 2, Sub-section 2, it was mentioned by inference. In Section 3 it was actually mentioned; but the whole effect of the Bill simply was that the Board of Trade should use its offices and try to get localities to form Boards of Arbitration. The Royal Commission approved of giving a Public Department power to appoint an arbitrator to act either alone or with others; but the Bill only contemplated not the appointment of arbitrators, but of conciliators.
It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
said, he wished to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the President of the Board of Trade had not been in the House during the time that this Debate had been going on.
Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill. (No. 176.)
Second Reading
asked when the Government intended to proceed with the Bill?
said, the Chief Secretary, when the Bill was introduced, said it would be printed within 24 hours, but he had not yet got a copy.
said, he was sure the delay had arisen from some cause over which the Chief Secretary for Ireland had no control.
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Railway and Canal Traffic Bill. (No. 156.)
Second Reading
* said, this was a very important Bill to traders, and they were anxious to know when it would be proceeded with.
said, the President of the Board of Trade had left the House, but the hon. Gentleman might be sure that he was anxious that the Bill should be brought on as soon as possible.
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Wild Birds' Protection Act (1880) Amendment Bill.—(No 134.)
Committee
[ Progress, 19th April. ]]
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 1.
moved to report Progress.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and asked leave to sit again."—( Mr. P. M'Hugh. )
said, he should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would allow the Bill to proceed.
said, there were some provisions in the Bill to which he could not agree.
Motion agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Religious Tests (Ireland) Bill. (No. 48.)
Second Reading
Order for Second Reading read.
said, he objected, as there were provisions in the Bill to which he could not assent.
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Solicitors' Examination Bill. (No. 112.)
Read the third time, and passed.
London Streets and Buildings Bill
Ordered, That Mr. Kimber be discharged and Mr. P. M. Thornton be added to the Committee on London Streets and Buildings Bill.—( Mr. Akers-Douglas. ).
Volunteer Acts
Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the working of the Volunteer Acts, and the legal status and obligations of Volunteers serving under them.—( Mr. Secretary Campbell-Bannerman. )
Railway Commission Bill
On Motion of Sir Albert Rollit, Bill to amend the constitution, powers, and procedure of the Railway Commission, ordered to be brought in by Sir Albert Rollit, Dr. Hunter, Mr. John Ellis, Mr. Hanbury, Mr. Channing, Sir Alfred Hick-man, Mr. Burnie, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Field, Mr. Jacks, and Mr. Patrick Aloysius M'Hugh.
Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 185.]
Police (Counties and Boroughs)
Paper [presented 20th April] to be printed. [No 83.]
Adjournment
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
Evening Schools
said, he wanted to say a few words upon a matter of some urgency. If he understood rightly, a Code of some importance affecting evening schools throughout England had been nominally lying on the Table for a month past, and, unless they took care, would become law in a few days. If he understood the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education that evening, this Code had not been printed. If that was so, it would be an unprecedented thing for a Code of that importance to come into effect without even having been printed for the perusal of Members of this House. He submitted that the right hon. Member was bound to take some steps to postpone the operation of the Code until it had been printed and they had had an opportunity of seeing what it contained.
said, he found himself in somewhat difficult circumstances in reference to this Code. It had been nominally laid on the Table, but there was delay in the printing. This was the first Evening School Code they had ever had, and they were anxious to give consideration to all the suggestions which were being made. He found, however, that it would be possible to start afresh by laying a Minute on the Table, so that there might be a good month for consideration of the Code. This Minute would contain all the particulars in the Code.
House adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.