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Commons Chamber

Volume 23: debated on Thursday 26 April 1894

House of Commons

Thursday, April 26, 1894

Questions

Questions

The Royal Commission on Opium

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any definite information as to whether the Royal Commission on Opium have concluded their inquiries; and when the Report may be expected?

I am informed that the Royal Commission on Opium have concluded their inquiries, so far as the taking of evidence is concerned. I understand that the Evidence and the Appendices are most voluminous, and that the medical aspect of the question will require to be very fully considered from a scientific point of view. Under these circumstances, the Commissioners are not able to fix a date for the presentation of their Report.

Poor Belief Administration at Rhyl

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, as stated by Mr. Jacob Jones at a recent meeting of the St. Asaph Board of Guardians, the Rhyl Board of Guardians use the largest hotel in the town as an office from which to distribute relief to the poor; and whether he contemplates taking steps to put an end to the practice?

As the result of my inquiries, I find that the pay station at Rhyl is a room at the extreme end of the hotel buildings adjoining the kitchen of the hotel. I am informed that it has a separate entrance in a different street from that in which the public entrances to the hotel are situate, and that persons receiving relief have never been allowed to enter the hotel from this room. The Guardians have received notice to give up possession of this pay station, and they are now taking steps to procure one elsewhere.

Unemployed Dock Labourers

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether it has been brought to his notice that the number of dock labourers idle on any one day of the week at the Port of London is 10,000; whether the Shipping Federation, and the shipping firms belonging thereto, are forcing their men to take up free labour tickets; and that the Federation, or the shipping firms belonging thereto, in cases where their men refuse to take the Federation ticket, are importing other labourers from the country, and thereby adding to the congestion at the London Docks; and whether he proposes to take any action to put an end to this state of affairs?

* (Mr. BURT, Morpeth) (who replied) said: Dock labour in the Port of London is subject to very great fluctuations, though the recent tendency has been towards a greater regularity of employment for the majority of the labourers so employed. I do not know the basis of the calculation alluded to in the question. It is, however, estimated by the Labour Department that during the first three months of the present year the average daily number of dock labourers seeking employment in the Port of London and not taken on has been about 3,000, though on particular days, especially towards the end of March, this number has been greatly exceeded. It cannot, however, be assumed that all these labourers were necessarily unemployed. The number of labourers employed at the docks has been considerably greater than in the corresponding period of 1893. With regard to the last part of the question, I am informed by the Shipping Federation that they have imported no labourers to London since February, 1891, and that their Registry of so-called "free labourers" has been in existence for the past three years. The Board of Trade are unable to prevent fluctuations of work at the docks, which are largely due to the periodic wool sales.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Shipping Federation arc forcing seamen and dock labourers to take the Federation ticket, and refuse to give them employment unless they do? Is he also aware that when seamen are engaged on board ships without going to the Federation offices the agent of the Federation refuses to allow the captain to employ them?

Whitebait at Woolwich

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Chief Engineer of the Works Department, at Woolwich Arsenal, has on several occasions lately found the tubes of his condensers choked with whitebait; and whether he will cause an endeavour to be made to prevent the fish being sacrificed and the machinery being blocked?

* : It will be well if no worse thing happens than that the Thames water should become so pure as to admit of whitebait being found to choke the tubes in which it is used. Such an accident did occur, I am told about six months ago; but a grating has been placed in the culvert, and I believe there has been no further damage to machinery or sacrifice of whitebait.

The Island of Tobago

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrangement has been come to between Trinidad and the Island of Tobago to prevent the extinction of the latter colony, owing to its being deprived of any fiscal revenue under the federation scheme recently adopted?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES
(Mr. S. BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar)

The matter is under consideration.

St. Lucia

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if Her Majesty's Government has received the Resolution of the Legislative Council of St. Lucia, West Indies, with regard to the effect of reducing the import duties on American goods under the McKinley Tariff—namely, the loss of revenue without any corresponding benefit to the planting interest of the Colony; and what action has been taken thereon towards the termination of the existing agreement with the United States?

The Resolution was duly received, but it was considered undesirable to take any action upon it until it was seen how the present arrangement with the United States would be affected by the Tariff Bill which is now before Congress.

Has the position taken up by St. Lucia been adopted by either of the West Indian Colonies?

Monaghan Militia Camp

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War have the Military Authorities at Monaghan taken ground at Carnacassa for a camp to accommodate the Monaghan Militia in their annual training; is it true that last year, when the Militia were trained on the same ground, water for drinking and cooking purposes had to be carted from a lake nearly three miles distant from the camp, and have any provisions been made in the meantime to prevent a recurrence of this disadvantage; were tenders invited for camping ground; and, if so, were any offered; and was that for Carnacassa lower than all others; will any correspondence that passed on this subject be produced; and does the Commander-in-Chief approve of an Irish Militia regiment being trained where the supply of water is precarious and bad, and where it cannot even be availed of without carting it a distance of two or three miles?

* : Ground for a camp for the 5th battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers has been taken at Carnacassa for the training for this year. Last year, when there was a very unusual drought, water was obtained from a well 150 yards away, and from the town pumps at a distance of 1,200 yards. This year there is a good supply from wells on the ground, supplemented by a well within 300 yards. Tenders were called for. Of the three offers received,, the Carnacassa ground was selected as most suitable for camping purposes. I may add that it comprises 10 acres more than last year, and that the rent is less. The Commander of the Forces in Ireland considers the arrangements very satisfactory.

Removals of Irish Lunatics

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is. aware that James Conniffe, who has been out of Ireland for 15 years, and who was recently an inmate of the Roxburgh District Lunatic Asylum, was admitted into the Athlone Union Workhouse on the 10th instant under a warrant of removal from Mr. Peter Speirs, one of the Sheriffs Substitute of the County of Roxburgh, and that the Athlone Guardians are now obliged to have said Conniffe removed to Mullingar Lunatic Asylum; whether, considering that Conniffe was 15 years out of Ireland, his removal under the circumstances was legal; and whether any steps towards legislating to redress this grievance, which is only one of many, is contemplated?

The Local Government Board inform me that the facts are as stated in the first paragraph. It also appears from the warrant of removal that the individual named had not acquired a settlement in Scotland, and the fact of his being 15 years absent from Ireland would not under the circumstances render the removal illegal. As regards the last paragraph, I have already directed the heads of a measure to be framed on the subject, and the Government are considering the propriety of introducing it should a suitable opportunity present itself.

Edinburgh University Curriculum

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he can explain on what grounds the Senatus Academicus of the Edinburgh University have decided under the new curriculum that a degree with honours in modern languages is to be limited to French, German, Italian, and Spanish, to the exclusion of Celtic, although a Celtic Chair is established in the University?

The Senatus Academicus of Edinburgh has been compelled to accept the new curriculum referred to by the hon. Member in accordance with Ordinance No. 44, Section 6, interpreting General Ordinance No. 11, Section 11, Sub-section 1 (a), under which the Universities Commission have excluded Celtic from the subjects to be studied with the view to graduation with honours. Ordinance No. 44 has lain before Par- liament for the statutory period under Section 20 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889, and no Petition has been presented against it. As the hon. Member refers particularly to the Senatus, I think it right to state that the Senatus would have preferred to include Celtic.

I am afraid the Commissioners first and Parliament next, because Parliament has passed the Ordinance.

Letterkenny Guardians

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland how many elected, and how many ex-officio members there are on the Letterkenny Board of Guardians; how many of the ex-officio Guardians failed to attend any meeting of the Board in the year ended the 31st of March, 1893; and how many failed to attend any meeting in the year ended 31st of March, 1894?

There are 21 elected and 21 ex-officio Guardians on the Board referred to. I understand that in the year ended the 31st of March, 1893, 14 ex-officio Guardians failed to attend any meeting of the Board, and that in the year ended the 31st of March, 1894, 12 ex-officio Guardians did not attend any meeting.

Is it not possible for the Lord Chancellor by appointing Magistrates to do something to remedy this grave scandal?

Medical Relief in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether a dispensary doctor who is served with a red ticket is bound to attend to the case throughout, or only to give a single visit; and whether he can require a second ticket before revisiting the patient?

The Local Government Board inform me that when a medical officer of a dispensary district receives a ticket signed by a duly authorised person requiring him to attend a patient he is bound to continue his attendance throughout the illness for which it was issued and without requiring a second ticket. If, however, the ticket has been improperly issued and the Committee of Management cancel it, his responsibility to attend the case ceases from the moment it is cancelled.

Presents to Foreign Governments

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the explanation of the items charged at page 204 of the Annual Accounts of the Ordnance Factories for the year 1892–3 for cases and packing for Lee-Metford rifles, and cordite ammunition, to be sent to various foreign Governments; why, in the case of the German Government, a Lee-Metford rifle and a cavalry sword were alone sent, whereas it would appear from the Return that, in addition to Lee-Metford rifles, certain quantities of cordite ammunition were also sent to the Netherlands Government, the Russian Government, the Swiss Government, and the Uruguayan Government; why were empty cartridge cases only sent to the Japanese Government, and why were 500 rounds of cordite ammunition sent to the Russian and Uruguayan Governments as against much smaller quantities sent to the Netherlands and Belgian Governments; why were these particular Governments selected for these favours; will the Government of this country receive reciprocally any samples of rifles and ammunition, up to date, from the Governments to which these gifts are made; is there any reason to suppose that the Governments so favoured are able or willing to give us in return equally valuable or useful specimens of articles of war material; and is it the practice in this country to communicate to foreign Governments the results of inventions for improving the armament of our troops?

* : The Lee-Metford rifles and cordite ammunition were presents to foreign Governments strictly on the principle of re- ciprocity. As the foreign Governments can, if they please, obtain the articles from the trade, there is an advantage in presenting them and in obtaining specimens of foreign manufacture in exchange. No information is communicated which it is desirable or practicable to keep secret; but when arms and other stores are in general use there can be nothing confidential in regard to them.

The Cork Street Preachers

On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Maurice Healy), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Mr. George Williams, prominent as the leader of the street preachers in Cork, is the person of that name who was until recently a clerk in the Paymaster's Office, Dublin Castle, and who, at the age of 40, was permitted to retire from the Public Service on pension on the plea of ill-health; if so, what the amount of the pension is; who certified as to Mr. Williams's ill-health; and, what was the nature of his malady?

The gentleman referred to is, I am informed, the same person who retired on pension last year, at the age of 43, from the Paymaster General's Office, Dublin. The pension was £143 15s. per annum, and the cause of retirement was rheumatic gout, it being certified that his arm was so disabled that he could scarcely write, and was uncurable. The certificate was that of Mr. Williams's own medical adviser, but was confirmed by the Government medical referee in Dublin.

Do this gentleman's physical infirmities prevent him leading the evangelists in Cork?

Then seeing that they seem to have disappeared, will he be called upon to resume his duties or give up his pension?

Is it not a fact that many of the most distinguished preachers have been men weak in bodily health?

I may say I have seen the handwriting of this gentleman, and it is so bad that I should be sorry to see him again in office.

Is it not a matter of congratulation that this gentleman has so far recovered as to be able to preach the gospel?

I beg to give notice to-morrow to strike off the pension of this gentleman, in order that he may preach the gospel gratis.

Board School for Hammersmith

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education if the attention of the Education Department has been drawn to the fact that the London School Board propose to erect a school in Section or Block VI. in Hammersmith, at a point on the extreme verge of the area remote from the great body of the school population, on a site abutting on a railway, while abundant vacant land near the middle of the section and convenient for the great mass of the children is available for the purpose; and if he will see that the school is placed where it will be most useful to and accessible by the children?

The site referred to is the Brook Green site in Block VI. of Chelsea, upon which the London School Board are about to erect temporary buildings to supply a pressing need for free education. It is near to the railway, and to the western boundary of the block. In the opinion of the Department it is fairly well situated to meet the needs of the district; it is within the radius of half-a-mile of nearly all the inhabitants, and, in point of access, is greatly preferable, especially for young children, to the nearest Board schools upon the other side of the Uxbridge Road and Hammersmith Road. The Petitioners, at whose instance the school is being supplied, themselves urged that it should be erected upon this site, and the Department have informed the School Board that they see no reason why the Board should not proceed to the erection of a permanent school there. The acquisition of any alternative site in the position indicated in the question by the process of compulsory purchase would necessarily involve very considerable delay.

Alleged Cruelty at Brentwood School

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a letter published in The Star, of the 21st April, from a woman, one of whose children recently died at Brentwood School, with marks of violence on its body, caused, as she alleges, by its being kicked down a flight of stone stairs, detailing various acts of cruelty, such as severe beatings with sticks, blows on the face and head, whipping with nettles, and prolonged immersion in cold water, perpetrated on the persons of pauper children in that school; and whether he will order an inquiry into the case?

The Local Government Board have communicated with the Guardians of the Hackney Union as to the letter referred to, and they are informed that a special committee of 14 members has been appointed to inquire into the charges, and that the committee will sit from day to day until the inquiry is completed. The Local Government Board will await the result of the investigation by the Guardians before determining as to directing an inquiry by one of their Inspectors.

Marine Inquiries by the Board of Trade

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether representations have been made to him as to the advisability of appointing engineers as assessors at Board of Trade marine inquiries; and, if so, whether he has taken, or proposes to take, any steps in the matter?

* (who replied) said: Under the existing practice, an engineer is appointed as assessor in all cases in which the formal investigation into a shipping casualty involves, or appears likely to involve, the cancelling or suspension of the certificate of an engineer, and also in any other case in which special engineering knowledge is required.

Cavan Land Commission

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Bomford, who is now acting as valuer for the Land Commission in the County Cavan, was formerly agent to a large landlord in the county; that he is related to that landlord and to several other landlords in the county, and to Mr. Barnes, the principal valuer for the landlords in the county in fair rent cases; that he was formerly a member of a Sub-Commission in the county, and removed to another county on account of his close connection with the landed interest there; whether these facts were known to Mr. Wrench and other members of the Commission when Mr. Bomford was sent as valuer to Cavan; and whether in all cases in which the figures are given in the preliminary list the Court valuer's valuation exceeds the rent fixed by the Sub-Commissioners?

I am informed that Mr. Bomford, now acting as valuer for the Land Commission in County Cavan, is related to two Cavan landlords for whom he acted as agent prior to 1881. I am not aware that he is related to Mr. Barnes, the principal valuer for the landlords in the county in fair rent cases. The Laud Commissioners state it is not a fact that Mr. Bomford has been removed from a Sub-Commission in Cavan. The allocation of work to the different Assistant Commissioners now acting as Court valuers forms no part of Mr. Wrench's duties, and until the present question was put he tells me he was not aware that Mr. Bomford was at work in the Cavan district. As to the Court valuer's valuation exceeding the rent fixed by the Sub-Commissioners, my hon. and learned Friend refers to cases which have been listed for hearing and are now pending the decision of the Court, and under these circumstances I do not think it is desirable or expedient that at the present stage they should form the subject of discussion in the House.

Can the right hon. Gentleman name any instance in which this gentleman has not raised the valuation? Who allocates these duties?

The allocations of work are made, I presume, by the Land Commission. It is certainly extremely and obviously undesirable that the valuer of the Court should be sent to a district in which he has connections among the landlords.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that Mr. Bomford is sent to another district, and that an independent valuer is sent down?

I am not clear that I have any power whatever to give directions to the Land Commission. But I will call their attention to the matter.

The Lanesborough Estate

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-laud whether he can now say if one Timothy Boland, a tenant on Lord Lanesborough's property, purchasing the interest in his farm from the former tenant in 1888, and paying three and-a-half years' arrears of rent to the agent, an oral undertaking was given by the agent that the rent would not be raised; whether the rent has since been raised by the Land Commission; and whether he will direct the attention of the Committee on the Land Acts to cases in which advantages secured to the tenant in this way are ignored by the Land Commission in fixing fair rents?

When replying to a question on this subject on the 12th instant, I stated that it was a fact that the Laud Commissioners, after hearing all the evidence given by both landlord and tenant, fixed the rent in Boland's case at £37, the old rent having been £30. Inquiry has been made relative to the statement to the effect that an oral undertaking had been given by the agent that the rent would not be raised, and I am informed by the Commissioners that they have no information in the matter, and are unable, therefore, to say whether such an undertaking was or was not given.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, on the last occasion when the Land Commission sat in Cavan, Mr. Wrench, formerly agent to Lord Lanes-borough, was one of the Commissioners, although, as he says, taking no part in the adjudication of appeals from Lord Lanesborough's property; whether he is aware that several of the appeals put down for hearing at the coming sitting of the Commission in Cavan are appeals by Lord Lanesborough or by his tenants; and whether Mr. Wrench will be one of the Commissioners sitting in Cavan on this occasion?

Mr. Wrench informs me that he was one of the Com- missioners at the last sitting for hearing appeals in Cavan, but took no part in any case from the Lanesborough estate. There are five appeals on this estate for the coming sitting of the Commissioners at Cavan, and Mr. Wrench will not be one of the Court.

Prosecution of Cab Drivers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he could state the number of cabdrivers summoned at the various Metropolitan and City Police Courts, during the three months ending the 31st of March, for offences against the Hackney Carriage Acts, such as loitering, plying for hire, causing obstruction, &c.; whether he is aware that as many as 70 or 80 of such cases are frequently heard and decided at one Police Court in a single afternoon; and if he will consider whether such cases might be dealt with more suitably in a special Court, where an inference against the drivers would be less readily suggested than in a Police Court?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT
(Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL, North Beds) (who replied)

* said: The two Metropolitan Police Courts which have far the largest number of summonses against cabdrivers are Marlborough Street and Bow Street. I am informed by the Chief Magistrate that at Bow Street, during the three mouths ending March 31 last, there were 333 summonses against cabdrivers for the offences mentioned by my hon. Friend, making an average of 26 a week. At Marlborough Street, where these cases are heard on two days a week, the number of summonses against cabdrivers would be from 20 to 25 each day. It is therefore not a fact that so many as 70 or 80 cases are heard at one Police Court in a single afternoon. In the opinion of the Chief Magistrate it would be extremely injurious to the interests of both the public and the cabmen if all such cases were heard at a special Court.

Will the Home Secretary consider the advisability of establishing a much larger number of stands for one or two cabs, and thereby enable the public more easily to call cabs?

Weighbridges at Irish Markets

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Irish Government will give directions to the local Inspectors of Weights and Measures in Ireland to prosecute, at the instance of the Agricultural Department of the Irish Land Commission, the keepers of weighbridges which are unsuited and useless by reason of their construction for the weighing of cattle, sheep, and pigs, pursuant to the provisions of the Market and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, 1887 and 1891?

The Acts mentioned provide for the prosecution of persons appointed by the Market Authorities to weigh cattle, for refusing to weigh, for neglect of other duties, or for issuing false Returns of weight as specified in the statutes, but such persons are not responsible if the weighing machines are unsuitable, useless, or of faulty construction. The Local Market Authorities in respect of markets and fairs, where tolls are collected, are the persons responsible for providing proper weighing machines and equipments, and the Laud Commission assure me that they are and have been using every endeavour, with a considerable measure of success, to induce the Local Authorities to provide suitable accommodation in this respect.

The Inniskilling Fusiliers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why it is that no Quartermaster is allowed to the 3rd Battalion of the Inniskilling Fusiliers; has this regiment recently been raised to six companies; and is it now the only six company Line Battalion of Militia regiment without a Quartermaster?

* : The battalion referred to has had six companies for many years; but it has only the strength of five companies. A battalion should have six full companies to justify the appointment of a Quartermaster. The 3rd Battalion Inniskilling Fusiliers is not the only Militia battalion of six nominal companies which is without a Quartermaster.

Female Labour in Mines in India

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what steps Her Majesty's Government are now taking to carry out the Resolutions of the Berlin Conference of 1890, as to the desirability of prohibiting the employment of women in the underground workings of mines?

Lord Cross and Lord Kimberley have both intimated to the Government of India their opinion that the employment of women and girls under ground should be prohibited in India, in accordance with the Resolution of the Berlin Conference. Lord Kimberley decided that an Inspector of Mines, who had served as one of Her Majesty's Assistant Inspectors of Mines in this country, should be sent out to India in order to advise upon the details of a Mines Regulation Act. That Inspector has been for some time prosecuting his inquiries, and when his Report is received legislation will be undertaken on that subject.

Barbed Wire Fences in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that alongside of the public highway between Bruree and Killmallock, County Limerick, a barbed wire fence has been set up which extends several hundred yards along the road to the danger and annoyance of persons passing along the said highway; is it the duty of the Police Authorities to take legal proceedings in such cases; and whether he would see that steps be taken to have the law complied with?

In reference to this question, I am advised that it is not the duty of the Police Authorities to take proceedings in such cases. Under the Act 56 & 57 Vict. c. 32, the County Surveyor appears to be the proper person to look after those road fences.

Free Education in St. Pancras

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the Department received a Petition from 336 parents in the neighbourhood of Albany Street, St. Pancras, demanding free education for their children, in March, 1893; is he aware that, although after correspondence with the School Board for London, and inquiry by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, the Department on 17th August, 1893, wrote calling on the Board to provide a new school in the neighbourhood of Cumberland Market, and asking to have at an early date any proposals the Board may think well to make as to a temporary school; and that, from that date to the present time, the School Board for London has made no proposals either for permanent or temporary accommodation; and whether he is prepared to take immediate action in face of this delay on the part of the School Board?

The Petition received in March, 1893, from 336 parents, related to the neighbourhood of another Marylebone school; but a Petition was received on 27th April from the neighbourhood in question, and, upon inquiry, a deficiency of 164 free places was reported by Her Majesty's Inspector; a letter was addressed to the School Board upon the 17th of August in the terms quoted, and no proposals have yet been received. The Department are pressing the Board to take action, and addressed a further letter to them on the 2nd instant.

Police Constable Whiting

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the case of Police-constable Whiting, of the C Division; whether he is aware that Whiting has been dismissed the Force, although he has borne a good character for seven years; and whether he will cause further inquiry to be made into the case, seeing that Whiting acted in the exercise of his duty, when called upon for help by Police-constable M'Carthy, and was not at the time aware of M'Carthy's offence?

(who replied) said: The Commissioner of Police has reported to me on this case, and it appears that Police-constable Whiting was dismissed for deliberately taking into custody one of two men on a charge which he knew to be false and unfounded, and for which the prisoner was detained in the cells for one hour and a quarter on a false charge. It is true that Police-constable Whiting had had no reports since 1887, but the deliberate taking into custody of a man on a false charge, and allowing that false charge to be made against him, knowing at the time that such charge was false, entirely unfits him for a position of trust or authority, with the characters and liberty of innocent men at his mercy?

Millbank Prison Site

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether the demolition of Millbank Prison is now completed; what is the acreage of the entire area thus placed at his disposal; what proportion of the site is to be appropriated to the new Picture Gallery and to the London County Council (for workmen's dwellings) respectively; whether any portion of the site is to be disposed of to any other and what persons or bodies; in what way the river frontage is to be occupied; and whether the opportunity will be taken to create improved access to this property from the direction of Victoria Street and Westminster?

* : The demolition of Millbank Prison is complete. The entire area of the site is just under 23 acres. Of this, about two and a quarter acres have been appropriated for the Picture Gallery, and about 10 acres to the London County Council for artisans' dwellings. The remainder of the site will be disposed of as follows:—About six acres will be handed over to the War Office for military purposes; a plot of about one and a-half acre behind the Picture Gallery will be reserved for a building for offices and examination rooms for the Civil Service Commissioners, and the balance will go in roads. The centre of the river frontage will be occupied by the Picture Gallery, and on either side will be military buildings, of which the form and character are not yet decided. The question of improving the approaches to the site is one that must be dealt with by the Vestry and the London County Council.

Not actually as open spaces, but a good deal will not be occupied by buildings.

Will the Government, in the interest of the public, try and secure a good approach to the property from the back?

The Loss of the "Countess of Aberdeen."

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the burning of the saloon in the Hull trader and passenger boat Countess of Aberdeen after she had stranded on the coast of Aberdeenshire on the night of Sunday, the 15th of April; if he has reason to believe that the fire was due to the use of dangerously inflammable oil; and whether the Board of Trade has any power to restrict the use of oil with too low a flash point for safety?

* said: Yes, Sir; the attention of the President of the Board of Trade has been called to the case of the Countess of Aberdeen, and he has ordered an inquiry to be held with regard to her stranding and to the fire which subsequently occurred. Until the result of that inquiry is known, I prefer not to express any opinion in the matter, but I may say that the Board of Trade have no power to prescribe the quality of oil to be used on board ship.

Arising out of this subject, may I ask the Home Secretary when the Committee on Petroleum will be appointed?

Alleged Manslaughter of a Seaman

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to an inquiry recently held at the Queenstown Petty Sessions into a charge of manslaughter of a seaman, named John Gomer, by Samuel Nelson, Captain of the British ship Bannockburn; whether he is aware that five seamen of the said ship were in attendance to give evi- dence on the hearing, and were not called; whether he is aware that the said seamen were prepared not only to give evidence of the circumstances immediately attendant upon the death of the said John Gomer, but were also prepared to make a statement of previous ill-treatment of the deceased by the captain; and whether he will direct an inquiry to be made into all the circumstances of the case?

* said: The attention of the President of the Board of Trade has been called to the case to which my hon. Friend refers, but the Board of Trade have no power to review the decision of the Court with regard to the criminal charge upon which it adjudicated. The President has, however, decided to order a Local Marine Board investigation into the allegations of ill-treatment made against (he master of the Bannockburn, with a view to his certificate being dealt with if the evidence is found to justify such a course.

Can the hon. Gentleman indicate at which port the local inquiry will be held?

Barnet Local Board District

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board what is the reason of the protracted delay in granting to the Barnet Local Board authority over an extended district, which extension is not objected to by either the Hertfordshire or Middlesex County Councils or the neighbouring authorities affected?

The Hertfordshire County Council made an Order which, whilst extending the district of the Barnet Local Board, would have altered the Rural Sanitary District of the Barnet Union, which is partly included in the County of Middlesex. The Local Government Board had doubt as to the legality of this Order, and they submitted a case to the Law Officers of the Crown as to the powers of a County Council under such circumstances. The Law Officers advised that neither the County Council nor a Joint Committee of the Councils of the Counties in which the Rural Sanitary District was situate could make such an Order. With the view of meeting this difficulty a provision has been introduced into the Local Government Act under which an Order may be made for the extension of the district by a Joint Committee of the two counties.

The Ventilation of the House of Commons

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether Mr. James Keith, C.E., has prepared a Report with reference to the heating and ventilation of the Houses of Parliament; and, if so, whether the Report will be circulated for the information of Members?

* : In December last Mr. Keith, as a professional gentleman interested in such matters, obtained leave from my predecessor to examine the warming and ventilating arrangements at the Houses of Parliament, but he was expressly told that no commission was thereby given him to make a Report. He has sent in to me a Report condemning the present system in some respects, and it has, apparently, been widely circulated. I do not propose to lay it on the Table of the House. I must remind hon. Members that in 1891 a Select Committee, presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, made a thorough investigation of the ventilation of the House, and drew their Report upon the evidence of surveyors, sanitary and mechanical engineers, chemists, and other independent experts. As at present advised, I see no reason for disturbing the decisions then arrived at.

Patent Office Fees

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what the total amount of fees would have been which would have accrued to the Patent Office of the Treasury, in respect of the 121,242 patents which were voided from the 1st of July, 1852, to the 31st of December, 1893, if such voided patents had been kept up by payment of renewal fees, or otherwise,. for the full period of 14 years (including in such total the sum of £3,000,000, or thereabouts, paid in respect of such patents until they became voided)?

* said: This is a hypothetical question, to which I can only give a very general reply. The figures would probably reach somewhere about £20,000,000.

Clarence Lanes, Roehampton

On behalf of the hon. Member for Wands-worth, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the freeholder of the Clarence Lanes, Roehampton, has offered to place them at the disposal of the public gratis, if the Government will re-open the gate into Richmond Park at the end of the lane; and, if so, whether he will make the necessary provision in the Estimates for maintaining the road and gate?

* (who replied) said: It is true that the owner of Clarence Lanes has made a generous offer to make them over to the public, but, pending the result of communications between the Office of Works and the London County Council and the Wandsworth District Board as to the making-up and maintenance of the road, I am unable just at present to give the hon. Member a definite reply.

Parliamentary Registers

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board why his Motion for the Return "Parliamentary Electors " (No. 40 of this Session), agreed to by this House on the 15th of March, was not framed so as to elicit the information required from the Register which came into force on 1st January, 1894, instead of being limited to the expired Register of 1893?

The number of electors on the Parliamentary Register on the 1st of January, 1893, was taken because these particulars were at once available, having already been obtained for the purpose of a Parliamentary Return. Similar particulars could not be given as regards those on the Register in January, 1894, without calling for new Returns, and this would have occasioned very considerable delay.

Is it not a fact that under a section of the Registration Act the Register coming into force at the beginning of this year ought to have been deposited at the Home Office before the 21st October last?

Yes; but I do not think the new Register will give the hon. Gentleman the information he desires.

Civil Service Writers

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in some cases, writers with only 10 years' service have been promoted to the Abstractor Class with a commencing salary of £150 per annum, whilst others with over 20 years' service have commenced with only £110 per annum, rising by £2 10s. to £150 per annum, and have to serve 36 years before they can reach a salary of £150; and, if so, whether the Treasury will, in addition to allowing some writers so promoted to carry with them, according to the ordinary practice of the Service, the salaries they were earning at the time of appointment, also adopt some means by which men with 15 and 20 years' service will not be expected to serve so long a period as 36 years before they are enabled to reach the present maximum salary of £150 per annum?

I have already dealt with the matters referred to in my answers given to the hon. Baronet the Member for the Kingston Division of Surrey on the 12th of June, 1893, and to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley on the 12th of April. I am not able to add anything to the answers then given.

Swaziland

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any further information relative to the proposed transfer of Swaziland to the South African Republic; whether the Queen Regent, and a large section of the native population, are adverse to such transfer; and whether he can state what course Her Majesty's Government propose to take in view of this serious condition of affairs?

A meeting of the Queen Regent and Council of the Swazi nation to consider the question was to take place on the 24th instant, and Her Majesty's Government have not yet learnt the result.

Local Courts in Lancashire

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Her Majesty's Government have considered the advisability of meeting the wishes of Lancashire (as expressed to the Lord Chancellor in deputation) that a Judge should be appointed to be attached to the Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty Division, who should try all actions in those Divisions arising in Lancashire, and also all actions and originating summonses in the Queen's Bench Division, and that such Judge should sit throughout the legal year in Liverpool and Manchester alternately?

said: The Lord Chancellor received a deputation from Lancashire, who expressed to him their desire that there should be continuous sittings throughout the legal year in that county of a Judge of the High Court to take business arising in all Divisions of that Court. Since that occasion arrangements have been made for providing more frequent sittings at fixed dates at Manchester and Liverpool; and it is desirable to have some experience of the amount of business done at those sittings, and the adequacy of those arrangements, before contemplating a change of such importance as that which the question indicates.

Sligo, Leitrim, and Northern Counties Railway

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether at the request of the Sligo, Leitrim, and Northern Counties Railway Company, it is proposed to cancel the debt of £28,000, being seven years' interest due on money lent, which the Company owes to the Irish Board of Works; whether he is aware that the Great Northern Railway Company of Ireland has offered to buy the Sligo, Leitrim, and Northern Counties Railway Company, paying £90,000 to the Board of Works, and repaying the amount of interest owing; and whether this offer will receive the favourable consideration of the Government?

* : Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Great Northern and Belfast interests combined, and represented by the hon. Member, are, with its usual philanthropy, most anxious to acquire a good going concern at less than its original cost?

* : Order, order! A question put in those terms should not be answered.

* said: A proposal to the effect of the first paragraph has been made, but has not been acceded to by the Government. A joint offer to purchase the line has been received from the Great Northern and Midland Great Western Companies, and will receive full consideration from the Treasury, along with other proposals; but I am not in a position as yet to announce any decision on the subject.

Is it a fact that the acceptance of the offer will entail a loss on the Treasury of £10,000? Is not public opinion in the district served by the line strongly adverse to the sale; and will the Treasury regard this question as one of public policy?

Did not the Chief Secretary receive an influential deputation, composed of persons resident in the parts served by the Company, and was it not strongly urged that the acceptance of the proposal would be most detrimental to the Company?

It is quite true that the Chief Secretary and myself received such a deputation, representative of various sections of Irish opinion, on this subject, and full consideration will be given to the views expressed by those who live in the district before any decision is arived at.

Before a decision is finally arrived at, will the House or hon. Members interested have an opportunity of expressing their views?

* : Hon. Members interested in the district will have an opportunity of making any representations.

Piræus and Larissa Railway Company

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government have received certain representations from the contractors for the construction of the Piraeus and Larissa Railway Company as regards the present action of the Greek Government towards them; and whether they are giving the subject their serious consideration?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OK STATE FOB FOREIGN AFFAIRS
(Sir E. GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)

* : Representations have been received from the contractors as regards the action of the Greek Government, and Her Majesty's Representative at Athens has endeavoured by unofficial action to obtain for them favourable treatment. But the question is one of a contract between the Greek Government and the British firm, which the latter have failed to execute, and is necessarily subject to Greek law. The first remedy of the contractors, if they consider they have to complain of the action of the Greek Government, is by litigation in the Law Courts, and it is only in case of an obvious denial of justice and after that remedy is exhausted that there would be grounds for diplomatic intervention. In view of the British interests involved, Her Majesty's Government will continue to do what is in their power to promote a friendly and equitable settlement.

Kilpedder Petty Sessions Court

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the removal of the Kilpedder Petty Sessions District Court from Kilgarvan to Kenmare, which is causing great inconvenience to the inhabitants of the district, many of whom are obliged to travel nearly 18 miles to have their cases heard; and that the proprietors of 30 business houses are obliged to take their weights and measures to Kenmare to be tested quarterly; if he is aware that the Kilpedder Petty Sessions Court was established nearly a century ago, and is in the centre of a populous district 12 miles square: and whether, as there is a Magis- trate available living within a quarter of a mile of the town, he will direct that the Petty Sessions Court be re-established?

I must ask the hon. Gentleman to put this question down for another day, as I have not yet been furnished with a Report on it.

The Knight of Kerry and the Poor Rate

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Knight of Kerry, by persistently refusing to pay the poor's rate in sufficient time, has thereby deprived the tenants on his Valentia property rated at £4 and under of the right to vote at a Parliamentary election; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of County Court Judge Shaw, expressing his astonishment at the number struck off the Parliamentary Register for this cause; and whether he will direct the Local Government Board to compel the rate collector to obtain payment of the rates within the statutable period, so that persons entitled to the franchise may not be deprived of the right conferred on them by Parliament?

The Local Government Board are informed by the clerk of the Union that the rate collector furnished the agent of the Knight of Kerry in May, 1893, with particulars of holdings valued at and under £4, and that subsequently he repeatedly pressed for payment, with the view of preventing the tenants from being disfranchised. It was not until November, however, that the rates were paid. The County Court Judge considered that an undue number of voters were disqualified from this cause. With regard to the last paragraph, it does not appear, I am informed, that there was any default on the part of the collector.

Will the right hon. Gentleman direct the Local Government Board to impress upon the Guardians the necessity of collecting the rate within the statutory time, so that a large number of men may not be disfranchised?

I will call the attention of the Local Government Board to the matter, and ascertain their sentiments on the point.

Will this injustice be rendered impossible by the Registration Bill of the Government?

Castle Cove Postal Arrangements

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he has considered the unsatisfactory postal arrangements between Castle Cove and Caherdaniel, County Kerry, under which letters arrive at Castle Cove at 4.30 p.m., and replies must be posted at 6 p.m., giving only an hour and a-half for reply to letters in a rural district where there is no delivery; and whether, to meet the wants of the locality,' he will arrange that the mail should leave Castle Cove in the morning at 6.50, reaching Caherdaniel in time for the mail leaving there for Waterville at 8.30, involving no change in present arrangements between Caherdaniel and Waterville; this alteration, which entails no additional expense, will meet the requirements of the locality?

I carefully inquired into this matter last year, and I would remind the hon. Member that I wrote to him on the 1st of August explaining that I had in the preceding month been able to effect a considerable improvement in the service, giving, in fact, a delivery on six instead of on three days a week. I pointed out at the same time why I could not sanction the further alteration, which would much extend the period during which the postman is on duty, and would involve additional expense, which is not warranted, as there is already a serious loss on the service.

Ventry Harbour

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when the work on the proposed new pier at Ventry Harbour, County Kerry, will be commenced by the Congested Districts Board?

The Congested Districts Board inform me that they do not at present propose to construct a pier at Ventry Harbour. Other landing places in Kerry are to be improved, and the funds at the Board's disposal are not large enough to enable them to undertake more than a small number of such works at the same time.

Will the question of the pier be considered after these works have been completed?

Will the Congested Districts Board fulfil their promise to make boatslips on the Island of Valentia, or a pier in the neighbourhood of Cahirciveen?

The Samoan Islands

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Government of New Zealand have made proposals to the Colonial Office for the future administration of the Samoan Islands, and that the Samoans have repeatedly expressed their concurrence with the views of the New Zealand Government; and whether, in view of the unsettled condition of these Islands, and of their immense importance to Her Majesty's Australasian Dominions, Her Majesty's Government will give favourable consideration to the proposals of the New Zealand Government?

At the same time, will the hon. Gentleman state the terms of the offier made by the Government of New Zealand that that colony should undertake the administration of the Samoan Islands; and whether the Secretary of State has received any communications from any of the Australian Governments, indicating their willingness to afford the necessary support to New Zealand in this matter; if so, which Governments have now adopted this course?

A telegram has been received on the matter from New Zealand; and we have learnt that it is supported by the Governments of Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania; but I cannot make any statement on the subject beyond that contained in the answer of my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on Tuesday.

Maltese Marriage Laws

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now inform the House if the Privy Council has arrived at any decision relative to the Marriage Legacy question in Malta; and, if so, whether the correspondence upon the subject may be laid upon the Table of the House of Commons?

The question referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council relates not to Marriage Legacies, but to the validity of certain marriages in Malta. The Judicial Committee have not yet given their decision. The Marriage Legacy question upon which there has been some correspondence with the Government of Malta is not a matter of such public interest as to warrant the presentation of the correspondence to Parliament.

If the hon. Gentleman will call at the Colonial Office I shall be glad to show it to him.

Irish Law Reports

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that there is no copy of the Irish Law Reports in the Library of the House of Commons; and whether, in view of the early sitting of the Committee on the Land Act (Ireland), he will take into consideration the desirability of having collected and published for the use of the Members Reports of the leading cases on the Irish Land Acts, with the decisions, and also summaries of the points raised and the effects of the decisions?

I am aware of what is stated in the first paragraph. All the important cases on the Irish Land Acts down to the end of 1892 are carefully noted, and the effect of the decisions explained in Cherry's Treatise on the Land Acts, and the subsequent cases will be found in the Irish Legal Reports. The point raised by my hon. Friend will no doubt receive the early attention of the Select Committee.

Does not the Library of the House of Lords contain the Reports, and have not Members of this House access to that Library?

I understand that hon. Members have access to the Library of the House of Lords, but I am doubtful if these Reports are to be found there.

Curragh Camp

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that new contracts are about to be entered into for works at the Curragh Camp, if in the interest of Irish industries, and in fulfilment of his promise given on the 27th of February, 1893, he will see that in the preparation of estimates for the proposed works, due provision will be made for making use of Killaloe slates, provided they can be supplied equal in quality and not higher in price than other slates?

* : Only one contract for military buildings in Ireland has been made since the reply referred to. In it the specification of Welsh roofing slates is omitted, and the slates to be used are required to be equal in quality to a sample in the Royal Engineer Office, and the same course will be taken in future contracts.

Soldiers' Travelling Privileges

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a statement in the London Press of the 24th of April, to the effect that a non-commissioned officer has been refused a passage in the mail boat of the London and North Western Railway from Dublin to Holyhead because he was in uniform; and whether, if so, he will represent to the Company the illegality of the proceeding?

* said: The Board of Trade communicated with the Railway Company, and have received a reply which I shall be happy to show the hon. and gallant Member. It appears that the Company did not refuse to carry the man by the express boat, but declined to carry him at the military fare. The difference has since been repaid him.

The Arran Islands

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what measures he has adopted to deal with the extraordinary destitution prevailing amongst the inhabitants of the Arran Islands?

A great number of questions have been put to me from time to time on this subject, and as great interest is taken in it in Ireland and in this country, perhaps the House will indulge me a rather long answer. Early in February last a meeting was held in the South Island of Arran. As a result a Memorial was forwarded to me by the late parish priest, Rev. P. J. McPhilpan, addressed to the Congested Districts Board, praying for relief works. That Memorial was brought before the Congested Districts Board, and at the same time I took immediate steps to inquire into the condition of the people. I found from inquiries made on the spot that while a number of the Killeany villagers who depend on hand-line fishing, and the people of Inisheer, who are the poorest in the islands, were, as in the best of years, badly off, there was no cause to apprehend actual want, and that taking the people of the islands generally they were comparatively well off; they had a very successful Spring and Autumn fishing season; the price of kelp was better than for some years past, and they had reared a very large number of pigs and sold them at high prices. Since that date representations of various kinds have been made to the Irish Government. The islands were visited by a member of the Local Government Board, and subsequently by a Local Government Inspector, who spent several days on the is ands, and made careful inquiries into the condition of the people, and as to the existing arrangements for relief should sudden necessity arise. The relieving officer has at his disposal means for providing outdoor relief, and the Inspector has instructed him as to his responsibilities and his duties and his power in the matter. There was no reason to apprehend "deaths by starvation " as was alleged. Early in the present month some evictions occurred arising out of ejectment decrees issued in 1893, some 38 families were at that time converted into the position of caretakers; 23 families arranged with the agent by paying, it is said, two years' rent and £4 cost in each case, 12 families were evicted, and in three cases the proceedings were postponed indefinitely. The Inspector visited 11 of these families at the time on the North Island, and satisfied himself—and he is a very competent officer—that they had shelter afforded them by their neighbours, either in out-houses fitted up as dwelling houses or, in some instances, in the abodes of their neighbours. These families, on the report of the relieving officer that they might possibly be destitute, were afforded provisional relief pending the ordinary meeting of the Board of Guardians—the Galway Board. The remaining nine families have all of them more or less the means of support. The cases of these evicted tenants subsequently came before the Galway Board on the 11th of this month, with the result that, in the case of four families, outdoor relief was sanctioned by the Board for a month. In two of the cases the Guardians did not consider that the applicants were deserving of outdoor relief. This morning I received the following information, which concludes what I have to say. There are in the Arran Islands 530 families, consisting of 3,521 persons at the present moment; 41 families, comprising 89 persons, are receiving outdoor relief. This includes food, lodging, and' such medical attendance as may be necessary, and all those persons are receiving provisions in the way of food. There are, roughly speaking, 40 or 50 families, comprising 150 people, in addition to the 41 families referred to, who are living on credit or on their neighbours at the present moment. Under ordinary circumstances of weather and season the extreme pressure on these unfortunate islanders will be over in a month. Money for kelp and cattle, as well as returns from fishing, may all be expected about the end of May, at which time also the principal fair for the island will be held. The relieving officer has received careful instructions that, whenever necessary, relief should be at once given. The question of providing seed potatoes has been all along admitted a proper and an important one. I brought the matter under the consideration of the Congested Districts Board, who found, however, that they had no power to either provide seed potatoes free or by way of loan, their powers being restricted to giving them for cash and at cost price. It has been estimated that a sum of £130, while not, of course, sufficient to admit of a change of seed being given to all the occupiers of small holdings in the islands, would enable a substantial amount, say five or six cwt., to be given to those landholders who just at present have a difficulty in procuring a supply out of their own resources. It seemed to me impracticable to ask Parliament to make a special Vote for this small amount, and while further considering the matter, my hon. Friend the Member for East Northamptonshire kindly on his own motion started a subscription. He has already remitted the sum of £80 to the clergyman of the islands, and, as the rev. gentleman has already started a fund, there ought to be no difficulty in withdrawing from it a sum of, say, £50 to make up the £130 required. I have to add that, in order to make quite sure, I directed yesterday an Inspector of the Local Government Board to cross to the island and report to me to-morrow; and if it is thought desirable by the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire, and the trustees of the other funds, the Inspector will proceed to distribute them, as instructions will be given him so to do. I think there is really no ground whatever for charging the Government in the discharge of their duty with any callousness in connection with the relief of these unfortunate people; and I hope what has been done by voluntary effort, with the assistance of the local relieving officer, will meet all the exigencies of what I admit to be a very painful case.

I should be sorry to charge the Government with callousness or neglect, but I observe that in the sketch of the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has given he does not refer to the greater probability of want this year owing to the failure of the potato crop last year, and I would ask him whether he does not think that in his estimate of the means of subsistence he may not be too sanguine owing to the fact that the ordinary supply of food from the last crop may not be forthcoming? I would further ask him whether he would not call the attention of the Congested Districts Board to the necessity of starting reproductive works, such as the construction of new roads and the building of boat-slips?

I do not think the question of the making of roads is one in which the Congested Districts Board could very well interfere at present. They would, first of all, have to obtain the consent of the Presentment Sessions and of the Grand Jury. They have already spent a sum of £370 in improving the water supply of the island. I have had under consideration whether they could not start some small road-making, and some other kind of small works, as conditions upon the receipt of relief.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that representations have reached me, and I think communicated to himself, that the supply of seed potatoes is in-sufficient?

Our information is that £130 would meet the necessities of the case; and as my hon. Friend has very handsomely authorised an expenditure of £80, I hope the other fund will produce the £50 required to meet the wants of the situation.

The Drumshanbo Stationmaster

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been directed to the case of Mr. P. Melvin, the station-master at Drumshanbo, on the Cavan and Leitrim Light Railway, who is about being dismissed by the Directors because on Good Friday he attended a meeting of the Company's employés in Ballinamore and joined a branch of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants; and whether, as this railway is subsidised by an annual grant from the Treasury, he will represent to the Directors the advisability of granting to their employés the same freedom of legitimate combination as is accorded by the other Railway Companies in the country?

At the same time, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is aware that Mr. W. H. M'Adoo, Manager of the Cavan, Leitrim, and Roscommon Light Railway, dismissed Mr. Patrick Melvin from the post of stationmaster at Drumshanbo in consequence of the latter having joined a branch of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Workers recently established at Ballinamore, County Leitrim; and whether, as this railway line is subsidised by the State, he will order an inquiry into the circumstances connected with the dismissal of Melvin?

* said: I will reply to the questions of the hon. Members for North and South Leitrim together. The Board of Trade have received a communication from the Company in which they deny that the station-master at Drumshanbo was dismissed because he joined a branch of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Workers. The Company add that nine-tenths of their men have joined the Society, and that no difference is made in their treatment by the Company. It is hardly correct to say that the line is subsidised by the State. The Treasury contribution is made to the Baronies not to the Company. The Board of Trade have no power to order an inquiry into the matter.

Fatal Accidents to Platelayers

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the recent fatal accidents to platelayers near Waterloo Station on the South Western Rail-way, at Child's Hill Station on the Midland Railway, at Hammerton Street Junction on the Great Northern Railway, and elsewhere, and to recent fatal accidents to goods guards, inspectors, and others in crossing the lines of railways; and whether, having regard to the frequency of such fatal accidents, he will direct representations to be made to the Railway Companies as to further amendment of their Rules for the protection of platelayers and others obliged by their duties to be upon or to cross the lines, and as to the better enforcing of existing Rules?

* said: Yes, Sir. The President of the Board of Trade has seen the reports of the specific cases referred to. He feels considerable difficulty in putting pressure on the Railway Companies to revise the Rules which control the duties of their servants. Such a course may involve the Board of Trade in a very undesirable measure of responsibility in regard to railway management. The attention of the Railway Association will, however, be directed to the terms of my hon. Friend's question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Board of Trade have made representations to the Rail- way Association on other matters with very good effect? Could not similar representations be made in the interests of the platelayers?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put the question to my right hon. Friend when he returns to the House.

Private Bill Reports

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, with a view to materially shortening the Reports on Bills committed to the Select Committee on Police and Sanitary Regulations, the column headed "Short Description of Clause" may not without disadvantage be omitted?

* : I have consulted those cognisant of this subject,, and have come to the conclusion that the short description of clauses in the Reports on the Bills referred to could not be omitted without some inconvenience to Members who may have to refer to them.

Burial Boards and the Local Government Act

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will lay upon the Table of the House the statement lately prepared by the Board, showing the effect of "The Local Government Act, 1894," as regards Burial Boards?

I will confer with my hon. Friend as to the best mode of proceeding for securing the object he has in view.

Bettisfield Railway Collision

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the Report of Major Yorke on the collision which occurred on the 5th of March at Bettisfield Station on the Cambrian Railway, in which he draws attention to the booked hours of two drivers—namely, Driver Williams, who booked on at 8.30 a.m., on the 5th of March, to work till 8.45 p.m., and Driver Griffiths, who booked on at 9.30 a.m. to 9.10 p.m., their hours of duty 12 hours 15 minutes and 11 hours 50 minutes respectively, and expresses his opinion that these hours are too long for any driver; and if he intends to take any steps to make the Cambrian Railway Company shorten the hours worked by their drivers, in terms of "The Hours of Labour (Railway Servants) Act, 1893"?

said: Yes, Sir; the Board of Trade have already communicated with the Railway Company in the terms of the Act referred to.

Police at Evictions in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the police, when their assistance is asked in cases of eviction in Ireland, keep any record of the sums paid or demanded for costs, and the nature of the costs alleged to have been incurred; whether he is aware that Bridget M'Govern, a widow, tenant of a small mountain holding in the townland of Tullycrofton, County Cavan, has paid to the agent, Mr. R. H. Johnstone, of Bawnboy, within the past two years and a quarter, four years' rent, together with sums demanded for costs amounting to nearly three years' rent; whether he is aware that no account of the costs alleged to have been incurred, and no receipt for the sums paid as costs, was given to her; whether the costs claimed included the costs of a summons to Petty Sessions to obtain possession in 1892, though no such summons was served on the tenant, and who were the Magistrates who made the order for possession; and whether there is any record from which he can say, approximately, in how many cases Mr. Johnstone has ordered, as landlord or agent, legal proceedings against tenants in the County Cavan within the past two years?

In cases of evictions the police, when practicable, ascertain and note the amount but not the nature of the costs alleged to have been incurred. The police report that the facts are correctly stated in the second and third paragraphs. It appears that the rent is only paid up to the 1st of May, 1888, and that from May, 1882, to March, 1892, only three and a-half years' rent was paid. I am informed that the costs claimed did not include the costs of a summons to Petty Sessions; and that the tenant was not summoned or decreed for possession of the farm at Petty Sessions in 1892. There is no record from which the information indi- cated in the concluding paragraph could be supplied.

Moonlighting Outrages in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the total number of moonlighting outrages in Ireland between the 22nd of August, 1892, and the 31st of March, 1894, distinguishing between agrarian and non-agrarian cases?

The total number of such outrages in the period mentioned was 129, of which 55 were agrarian and 74 non-agrarian cases.

The Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the actual strength of the Royal Irish Constabulary on the 22nd of August, 1892, and at the present date?

Exclusive of officers and head constables, in whose numbers there is practically no variation, the actual strength of the Constabulary on the 22nd of August, 1892,was 11,764, and on the 31st of March, 1894, 11,652 men. The strength of the Force on this date could not be given with accuracy at such short notice.

Enfield Small Arms Factory,

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the authorities at Enfield Small Arms Factory have informed several of the workmen that if they take part in any public meeting respecting factory affairs they will be dismissed; and whether this prohibition applies to all matters appertaining to the working of the factory; and, if not, what subjects are exempted from its application?

Certain workmen have been cautioned that participation in public meetings for the discussion of the policy of the Department in the management of its factories is inconsistent with all discipline, and with the proper working of the establishment. They have been warned that it constitutes a virtual breach of the Rule against making complaints through any but the proper channel, infringement of which Rule leads to dismissal. Every workman has full right of appeal to his superintendent in the case of a personal grievance, but it would be impossible to allow workmen to take part with outsiders in publicly discussing and remonstrating against the general conduct of the business of the Department.

Are not the men referred to citizens entitled to vote, and, as such, are they not at liberty to discuss questions of public policy?

Certainly, as citizens, they are entitled to discuss questions of public policy; but it is obviously impossible to allow workmen in the factory to discuss questions concerning the business of the factory. For instance, take the particular case of a meeting held lately to discuss, on ex parte evidence entirely, the allocation of work to the Department. This brings the workmen into a position of antagonism with those who control the Department, which would cause great inconvenience.

Does the prohibition apply to the meetings held after the men have performed their day's work?

I suppose they could not very well attend a meeting while their work was going on.

Tracers in the Accountant General's Office

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he has received a Memorial, signed by a large number of second-class tracers attached to the Receiver and Accountant General's Office, in which a number of grievances and hardships were recited, with a prayer for their redress; and whether the prayer of the Petition has been granted, or what action does he propose to take in connection therewith?

Yes; I have received several Memorials from the Tracing Staff of the Receiver and Accountant General's Branch of my Department, which have all been answered with the exception of the last one, which was only received last month, and to that an official reply will be sent to the Memorialists through the usual channel, with no unnecessary delay.

Vestry Meetings

On behalf of the hon. Member for the Widnes Division of Lancashire, I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether it fulfils the requirements of the Local Government Act of 1894 to pass a resolution at the annual Vestry meetings for township business, of which meetings 14 days' notice has not been given, for the division of the parish into wards?

Having regard to the provisions in Sections 18 (1) and 84 (3) of the Local Government Act, it appears to the Local Government Board that a resolution passed by the inhabitants of the parish in Vestry assembled, after the usual notice for a Vestry meeting, is sufficient, and that 14 days' notice of the meeting is not, therefore, required.

Boycotting at Kells

On behalf of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin University, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the several meetings reported to have been recently held for the purpose of effectually boycotting a gentleman at Kells for having taken a vacant farm; whether he is aware that at such meetings resolutions have been passed denouncing this gentleman, and calling up the people in the neighbourhood to boycott him; whether the trade and business of this gentleman have suffered; and whether it is intended to take any steps to put an end to such boycotting?

On the 2nd instant I replied very fully to a question addressed to me by the hon. and learned Gentleman, which is practically identical with the further question now put. I have nothing to add to that reply, except to say that, so far as the Inspector General is aware, there has been no change in the position of Bradley, and that, as I stated in my reply of the 2nd instant, the police, by my special directions, are using the greatest possible vigilance to prevent any acts of intimidation in the case.

The Cork Murder

On behalf of the hon. Member for Dublin University, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the murder of Donovan, the caretaker of an evicted farm at Newmarket, County Cork, whether, at the date of the murder, Donovan was under any special police protection; whether he had been previously, and if so, up to what date, under special police protection; and whether any special police protection previously afforded had been withdrawn from him, and, if so, upon what grounds?

The Inspector General informs me that Donovan was specially protected by police patrols, and that he had been under this form of protection down to the date of his murder. The reply to the third paragraph is in the negative.

Superannuation of Elementary Teachers

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education when he will lay before the House the Report of the Departmental Committee on the superannuation of elementary teachers; and when the decision of the Government thereupon may be expected?

The actuaries upon the Departmental Committee have been engaged for some time in preparing new tables. These tables, as the hon. Baronet is aware, are of a very complicated character. As soon as they are complete the Committee will resume its sittings, and I hope they will be able to report within the next few months.

Naval Courts Martial

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is intended to remove the disabilities of officers of the Royal Marines in respect of their exclusion from Naval Courts Martial; and whether an undertaking to remove these disabilities was recently given by the Admiralty?

The question whether Marine officers should be mem- bers of Naval Courts Martial has recently been brought under our notice by other hon. Members, and Lord Spencer has called for Papers and information on the whole subject, which he will shortly examine; meanwhile, no answer can be given. The Board of Admiralty has never passed any Minute in favour of an alteration; nor could such a change be made except by passing a Bill to amend the Naval Discipline Act.

Expenditure on Barracks

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what amount of the £4,500,000 voted under the Barracks Act remained unexpended on the 31st of March, 1894; and what is the estimated expenditure under the Act in the present financial year?

* : The amount taken under the Barrack Act of 1890 was £4,100,000. Of this, £2,364,000 remained unexpended on March 31, 1894. The expenditure during the current financial year is estimated at £700,000.

The Ladies' Gallery

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether, in view of the many representations that have been made to him in reference to the grating in front of the Ladies' Gallery, he can see his way to order its removal?

* : This is a subject which has frequently been brought to the notice of the House. I have had so many pressing appeals from hon. Members, as well as from occupants of the Gallery in question, that I propose, subject to the general approval of the House, and by way of experiment, to remove the central section of the grating; that is to say, one-third of the whole.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in former days many Divisions took place in the House on this very subject, and has he considered whether it would be in accordance with precedent that the grating should be removed without taking the opinion of the House?

Will the hon. Gentleman refer this question to the Committee which is about to be appointed, before coming to any decision?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are very many ladies who prefer the grating to remain?

May I ask how will the right hon. Gentleman decide as to the ladies who are to occupy the central position?

* : Hon. Members will observe that in my answer I said that this proposal was subject to the general approval of the House. I have had an immense number of pressing appeals; but, of course, if there is anything like disagreement on the subject, it must be referred to the judgment of the House. I will undertake, however, that nothing shall be done until the House has fully considered the matter.

Are we to understand that the question will be referred to the Committee before the decision is taken?

* : It is a question on which hon. Members are able to make up their minds, and I do not think it is lone which could be advanced by examination before a Committee.

The Behring Sea Award Act

I beg to ask the Attorney General whether any, and if so what, steps have been taken to notify the sealing vessels that are now at sea with lawful clearances to seal in the North Pacific Ocean, that the necessary legislative sanction has now been obtained for a close season in Behring Sea to commence on the 1st of May next; and whether arrests are to be permitted of vessels which have not been so notified?

* : The provisions of the Award of the Tribunal of Arbitration which this country and the United States were bound to carry out were matters of common knowledge in August last, but every possible means will be taken to give to sealers now at sea specific warning that the Regulations will be enforced, and two of Her Majesty's ships have been sent to the sealing grounds for that purpose. Any British or United States vessel contravening the provisions of the Behring Sea Award Act, 1894, will be liable to be arrested and sent to a British Court for trial.

I should like to ask the hon. Baronet what provision, if any, will be made for the case of those sealers who infringe the Act without having had any knowledge of or warning concerning it?

* said, he thought such cases were scarcely likely to occur. It was well known such an Act was to be passed, and that it was the intention of both Governments to enforce the Award, the terms of which were made public, and, therefore, it was hardly possible any sealers could have started in ignorance of the provisions of them.

Then what is the use of sending men-of-war in search of the sealers to inform them?

* : It is always desirable that in these matters the Government should take every precaution in its power to prevent any possible misunderstanding, however slight the chance of it may be.

The Property Tax

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the deduction of one-sixth he is understood to propose to allow in assessments of houses to the Income Tax or Property Tax, under Schedule (A), will in cases where the houses are let at a rent which includes rates (which rates the landlord therefore pays) be in addition to the present deduction allowed in making the assessment in respect of such rates; and if the proposed allowance of one-sixth will in the cases mentioned be on the gross rental or on the rental after deducting rates?

Where the landlord pays the rates this fact is taken into consideration in the Income Tax assessment, which, in such cases, is based on the rent, after making allowance for the rates. The reduction of one-sixth will be upon the Income Tax assessment.

Visits of Foreign Officers to English Dockyards

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the fact that two Members of the French Chamber of Deputies and of the Committee appointed to inquire into the condition of the French Navy, attended by a French Naval Attachæ, and accompanied on the part of the Admiralty by the Assistant Director of Torpedoes and the Inspector of Dockyard Accounts, visited Portsmouth Dockyard on the 20th instant, and, under the superintendence of Rear Admiral Fane, inspected the vessels under construction and went over the torpedo and Naval supply stores; and whether equal facilities of inspecting vessels and torpedoes are afforded alike by France and other Foreign Powers to representatives of this country?

My right hon. Friend has requested me to answer this question. In compliance with a request from the French Government, conveyed through the French Ambassador, two Members of the French Chamber of Deputies being Members of a Naval Parliamentary Committee of Inquiry, were conducted over the dockyard and stores at Portsmouth as stated in the question. Similar facilities are afforded alike by France and other Powers to representatives of this country, and every courtesy is invariably extended to our Naval Attaches, and any special representatives visiting foreign dockyards.

The Budget Proposals

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the 10 per cent. proposed to be deducted from the rental of land for purposes of Income Tax assessment will be equally applicable to tithe rent-charge?

Where the tithe rent-charge is included in the assessment of the land, the owner of the land will have the benefit of the 10 per cent. reduction on the whole assessment, including the tithe rent-charge. The owner of the tithe rent-charge in that case, as well as in the case where he is directly assessed, will remain in the same position as he is in at present.

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state what has been the capital value of property on which probate has been granted, and the annual value of real estate returned for Succession Duty in the last five years; and what is the estimated capital value of real estate to be charged with Estate Duty annually for the future?

The hon. Member will find the figures he asks for at page 22 of the Appendix to the 36th Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.

Is the House to accept the right hon. Gentleman's estimate as not being based on any capital figure?

I am sorry to trouble the right hon. Gentleman, but unless the figure on which the estimate is made is guess work, is the House to understand that the figures are not readily accessible. Are we to have no means of estimating the amount paid by agricultural land?

The hon. Member must form his own conclusion from the particulars I have indicated.

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what sum the interest at 3 per cent. on Estate Duty, charged on real estate, is estimated to amount annually, supposing that on all agricultural properties the payments are spread over eight years?

This is a question founded on an hypothesis on which the hon. Member is just as capable of forming an estimate as I am. The interest is so collected as to be equivalent on the whole to the principal sum which is originally charged.

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that settled property which has paid Probate Duty before the passing of the Budget Bill 1894 will not be charged with Estate Duty under that Bill till the settlement expires, he will state whether real estate which has already paid Succession Duty under the same conditions will be relieved from Estate Duty for the same period?

The two cases are not parallel. Probate Duty is paid in respect of the capital value of the estate; but Succession Duty is only paid on the life interest of the successor, and no allowance can be made in respect of it when the successor dies, and the interest in respect of which the duty was paid is therefore wholly exhausted.

Are we, then, to understand that although both classes of property have paid duty hitherto, relief is to be now given to settled personalty and not to settled land?

It has nothing at all to do with the different character of the property; it is the question of the difference in the permanence of it.

Prison Officers' Pensions

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in accordance with their Petition, he will reconsider the possibility of assimilating the conditions under which prison officers retire from the Public Service to those prevalent in the Police Force?

(who replied) said: The case of warders cannot properly be compared with that of the police, whose health is affected by constant exposure to the weather, and especially by night duty in the open air. In 1891 the Prison Warders Committee, after inquiry into the claim of the warders for a higher scale of pension, declined to recommend any increase, and in view of this decision I am unable to propose to Parliament the alteration in the law which would be necessary to enable the Treasury to make any alteration in the present scale of ordinary pensions.

The Registration Bill

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Government is in possession of any information which enables him to state or to estimate the number of electors who, being entitled to exercise the franchise created by 2 Will. 4, c. 45, s. 27, and also to vote under 30 & 31 Vic. c. 102, or under 48 & 49 Vic. c. 3, will be affected in respect of their right to vote by the provisions of the Bill introduced by him on the 13th instant?

I am advised that that portion of s. 27 of 2 & 3 Will. 4, c. 45, which conferred the right to vote, was repealed by the Act of 1884 (48 & 49 Vic. c. 3), and was not re-enacted by that Act. But that Act by s. 5 conferred a right to vote on the occupier of a £10 tenement or land. There is no possibility of estimating the number of £10 occupiers who will be affected by Clause 1 of the Registration Bill. It will probably be very small, as the larger number of voters come on the Register as inhabitant occupiers. This will be observed from a reference to the Parliamentary Electors Return for England and Wales recently issued, which shows that while the total number of electors was 4,846,000, of these the lodgers numbered 143,000 only.

The Order of Business

Has the Leader of the House any statement to make relative to the course of business?

I hope the Motion for the introduction of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill may be allowed to go through to-night. ["No, no!"] Well, if it is not, it must be taken again on Monday; and I should propose on Friday to dispose of the question of the Scotch Committee, as I hope that the proposals which we have to make will remove any difficulties on that head. After that we shall take the introduction of the Scotch Local Government Bill, and then, for the main business of the week, the Second Reading of the Registration Bill. Then we desire also in next week to get the Second Reading of the Scotch Local Government Bill, to which I do not imagine there will be any serious opposition, and which, if agreed to, will go to a Committee upstairs. The week after will be mainly devoted to the Second Reading of the Budget Bill. That is the general view of the Government as to the arrangement of business, and I should be glad, subject to that arrangement, if I should be able to find time for a day for the question of Uganda. I do not know how much time may be taken up by the discussion on the Budget Bill, but I hope, if it is not much protracted, to give a day or two for ordinary effective Supply. That is the general view, but it is, of course, subject to alteration.

Are we to understand that the Evicted Tenants Bill will not be taken before Whitsuntide?

I think it will be impossible to do that. It must be clearly understood what business the Government think it essential to take. It is the main intention of the Government to take the Scotch Bill, the Registration Bill, and the Budget Bill.

Will the Second Reading of the Evicted Tenants Bill be taken before the Committee on the Budget Bill? Have the Government formed any intention as to the course of dealing with the Bill after Whitsuntide?

I am afraid I cannot at this moment make any further statement. I may be able to do so next week.

Motion

Established Church (Wales) Bill

Motion for Leave

* : In rising to make the Motion which stands in my name, to ask for leave to introduce a Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the temporalities thereof, I do not propose to enter for more than a moment upon the general considerations which affect the question of the maintenance of the Established Church in Wales. The unmistakable evidence which was given at the last General Election of the opinion of the large majority of the Welsh people on this subject in the return of no less than 31 out of 34 Members pledged to disestablishment—an opinion which was ratified by the Division which took place in this House last Session on the introduction of the Suspensory Bill, when the First Reading of that Bill was carried by a majority of over 50—is to us a sufficient and conclusive indication both of local opinion, and of the opinion of the House of Commons on the general principles affecting this question. These are matters which may be fitly debated, and which, I doubt not, will be debated at becoming length and amplitude, when we come to consider the Second Reading of the Bill. I will content myself now with saying, in two or three sentences, what our view upon this question is. The Church of England in Wales is the Church of a comparatively small minority of the people. It is as a Church—I do not speak of it as a religion, but as a Church—associated in the minds of the bulk of the Welsh people with injurious and, indeed, I may say with humiliating memories. It is to them, and has long been, although it calls itself and is in law a national institution, a symbol, not of national unity, but of national discord. It has had at its side for generations past the social influence, the political power, and the great bulk of the wealth and property of the country, and the control —I might almost say the monopoly—of education and culture. It has in these later years enlisted in its service a still more potent auxiliary in the zeal, devotion, and self-sacrifice, both of its ministers and of its members. Yet, Sir, it remains to-day what it has been for more than a century past—an institution which is not accepted as a national institution by the vast bulk of the people, by whom it is regarded as an aggressive sectarian power, singled out by the State from among a number of competing and rival religious agencies as a special object of State favour, and settled by the State in the exclusive enjoyment of what they regard as a special patrimony of the people. I do not wish to argue the general question here; I merely state the position [ Opposition laughter and ironical cheers ] as it presents itself to us; and, in answer to those cheers, I can assure hon. Members that we are perfectly prepared when the fitting time comes, as it will come when this Bill is presented for Second Reading, to go over the whole of the ground and to maintain every one of the propositions that I have laid down to-day. My function to-day in asking for leave to introduce a Bill is not to argue the general question, but to state the plan which the Government propose to submit to the House for dealing, in a practical and effective way, with the settlement of the question. The first question to which I wish to call attention is as to the area over which the process of disestablishment and disendowment ought to be carried. We propose, of course, to include in the Bill the 12 counties which constitute in point of law the Principality of Wales; and we propose further, as the title of the Motion I am about to make shows, to add to these the County of Monmouth. I do not know that that addition requires either justification or even explanation. The district that now constitutes the County of Monmouth is part of what was anciently called the Welsh Marches. It was created into an English county, in so far, that is to say, as it ever has been an English county —in the reign of Henry VIII., but it has always remained what it was from the first, predominantly Welsh in the habits, the sentiments, and the general character of the people. That fact was recognised recently, when the gentlemen opposite sat on this side of the House, in a measure, which was assented to by the Government of the day, namely, the Intermediate Education Act of 1889. In that important matter—a matter peculiarly Welsh, and one affecting Wales as distinct from England—Monmouthshire was expressly included within the scope of the Bill. I may further remind the House in regard to the particular matter before us that the whole County of Monmouth is included in the Welsh diocese of Llandaff. Therefore, I think that no further argument is needed to justify a Bill affecting Welsh disestablishment embracing Monmouthshire as well as Wales. The adoption of this area will necessitate a rearrangement of the existing state of things in two important respects. In the first place, there are a number of parishes belonging to English dioceses that are wholly included, geographically, in Wales; but, on the other hand, there are a number of parishes belonging to Welsh dioceses which are wholly situated in England. We propose to follow in this Bill the geographical and not the diocesan boundary where the two are not coincident. I think, if we adopted any other plan, we should give rise to a state of things, whatever may be the opinions entertained with reference to these proposals, which would be recognised both by opponents and by supporters of the Established Church as intolerable. You would have in that case a number of oases—disestablished parishes in England and established parishes in Wales. But it is necessary, in order to carry into effect the intentions of this measure, to have the whole of the territory included within the geographical boundary of Wales and Monmouthshire under one state of the law, and the other territory as at present under another state of the law. For this purpose the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will be required to make the necessary redistribution of parishes. For such a step I may point out that there is abundant precedent. For example, there is the Act of the Ecclesiastical Commission, passed in 1836, which gave them such powers; and the Act of 1847, which dealt with the Bishoprics of St. Asaph, Bangor, and Manchester. There is also the Act of 1878, which provided for the creation of new Bishoprics and empowered them expressly to make such a redistribution of areas as was necessary to give effect to the intentions of the Legislature. I may state at once what the result of this change will be. There are at present 12 Welsh parishes with a total population of 6,600 persons, and with an aggregate valuation, ecclesiastically, of some £2,350, which are now included in the English dioceses of Hereford, Chester, and Lichfield and which, under the state of things brought into operation by this Bill, will become subject to the Act of Disestablishment and Disendowment. On the other hand, there are 14 English parishes with a total population of 20,600, and an aggregate yearly ecclesiastical valuation of £4,800, which are now included in the Welsh diocese of St. Asaph, and which, in consequence of the arrangement we propose, will be transferred to English dioceses, and will not be, therefore, subject to this Act. That is the first rearrangement found necessary. But there is a second class of boundary adjustments, if I may so call them, which will have to be carried into effect. There are a number of border parishes cutting the geographical boundary between England and Wales, and situated partly in the one country and partly in the other. In the diocese of Chester there are two such parishes, in that of Hereford 10, and in that of St. Asaph three, making a total of 15 border parishes, which together contain a population of some 7,000. As to these, we propose that the Welsh Commissioners to be appointed under this Bill shall have full power to determine—having due regard to such facts as the population, the situation of the parish church, and the other special circumstances of; each case—whether a particular parish is to be treated as wholly within or wholly without Wales; and as that is a question which may very probably give rise to local feelings and great differences of opinion, we propose that any order made by the Welsh Commissioners on the subject shall be a matter which, if anyone wishes it, shall be subject to the right of appeal to the Queen in Council. So much for the area with which the Bill proposes to deal. I now come to the date of disestablishment. In this matter we propose to follow the precedent of the Irish Church Act of 1869, and postpone the commencement of the Act until there has been a reasonable time for the Church on the one side and on the other side for the Local and Central Authorities charged with or interested in the administration of the new state of things to accommodate themselves to the situation, and to make such arrangements as are necessary. I do not know whether I shall be considered as over sanguine if I assume that this Bill will pass into law in the course of the present Session. At any rate, for the purposes of to-day's explanation, I am going to make that assumption, and if it is realised, the date we have put in the Bill as the date of disestablishment, and therefore as the date on which the new arrangements are to take effect, is January 1, 1896. In other words, our proposal is this. We shall give from whatever date the Bill passes into law a year, or rather more than a year, for the different persons and Public Bodies concerned to adapt themselves to the new situation. During the transitional state of things which will exist between the passing of the Act and the actual date of disestablishment, provision has, of course, to be made for carrying on the work of the Church. On the one hand, it is desirable and obviously necessary and right that the machinery of the Church should not be brought to a deadlock and its organisation fettered or seriously crippled, whilst, on the other hand, it is equally desirable that no new vested interest' should be allowed to come in and hamper the work of disestablishment and disendowment. We propose, therefore, to do what was done in 1869 in the case of the Irish Church, to make provision for the case of vacant Bishoprics. Under this Bill, the Bishops are to be appointed by the Crown, but only on the recommendation of the Archbishop of Canterbury or three Welsh Bishops, and the new Bishops so appointed are not to be entitled to sit in the House of Lords. As to the various livings that fall vacant during that time, we propose to fill them up as now, and by means of the same constitutional authorities; but while clergymen so appointed will continue to hold their appointments down to the date of disestablishment, the emoluments attached to their several benefices will not be treated as having created any existing interests in their favour for the purposes of compensation at the time whenever disestablishment comes into effect. I now come to the nature of disestablishment itself. Supposing the date I have named as the possible one for disestablishment to have arrived, I will try to explain as briefly as I can what will be the effect of the Act on the status, as distinguished from the property, of the Church and its officers. By the first clause of the Bill, from that date, the Church of England, so far as it is established by law in Wales and Monmouthshire, the Church that is which is referred to in the Bill as the Church of Wales, will cease to be so established. All rights of patronage, public or private, are from that date to be extinguished, and all ecclesiastical corporations, sole or aggregate, are to be dissolved. No Bishop of the Church of Wales is to be summoned from that time onwards to sit in the House of Lords, although, of course, the existing Bishops, although disqualified in one sense, will retain their present titles and precedence, and the necessary number of Bishops will be made up from the English Bishops who have at present no seats. That, shortly stated, is the effect of disestablishment as distinguished from disendowment. I will now say a few words as to the status of the disestablished Church. We propose that the present ecclesiastical law in Wales and Monmouthshire shall cease from that time to exist as law. The Ecclesiastical Courts will no longer have any coercive jurisdiction. No appeals will any further be permitted from those Courts to the Queen in Council. Convocation, which is a Common Law body not created by Statute, but purely a clerical body with no power by law to alter its own constitution, and no power to act in any matter except by authority from the Crown— Convocation will have to be modified in its composition and constitution by the fact that the Bishops and clergy of the Welsh Church, having ceased to enjoy the legal status which they at present possess, will no longer be qualified to sit or be represented in it. But we have provided, as it was necessary to provide, that the powers of Convocation as a Common Law body, so far as they relate to matters outside Wales and Monmouthshire, are not to be affected or impaired by the withdrawal of the Welsh Bishops and clergy from it. So far I have spoken only of what I may call the disabling effects of the Bill on the status of the disestablished Church; I come now to the empowering provisions which we propose to enact. Following the precedent again of the Irish Act of 1869, we propose that the present articles, doctrines, discipline, and ordinances of the Church of England shall continue, so far as the Church in Wales is concerned, until they are modified by an authority to which I will presently refer. They are to continue, of course, not with the force of law and not with any coercive sanction, but as binding on the members of the Church by the effect of mutual agreement. So far as they relate to property, and so long as that property continues to be enjoyed by virtue of the Act by officers or members of the Church, the obligation to hold the property in accordance with the articles, regulations, and discipline of the Church will be enforceable in the Temporal Courts just in the same way as though the property so enjoyed were held upon an express trust. The Bishops, clergy, and laity are to have power to hold Synods, and to frame constitutions for the government of the Church in Wales, either as a whole or according to the diocese. Finally, we propose to enable them to appoint a body to represent them, and to hold property on their behalf. That body, which is called in the Act the representative body of the Church in Wales, may, when it is constituted, be incorporated by the Queen as a Corporation, with power to hold property in land without licence in mortmain. That will be the position, and those will be the power and disabilities of the Church in Wales when disestablished.

Yes; we do Dot incorporate the Irish Act, because it is by no means clear that the Church would see fit to exercise the power the measure would give them to appoint such a body. We follow the language and intention of the Irish Act, providing if and when the Welsh Church appoints such a body then they shall incorporate it. I pass now to a much more complicated and difficult question—the question of disendowment and the effect of the Bill upon the status and the property of the Church, as to which I am afraid I shall have to trespass considerably on the time and the indulgence of the House. I shall have to go into matters both as to principle and detail which would hardly be intelligible without a lengthy explanation. The preliminary question I will ask is, "What is the property in title, in kind, and in value with which we have to deal?" On the question of title I need hardly remind the House that the Church of England as a Church is not, in point of law, the owner of property of any sort or kind whatever. The Church is not a Corporation, and although it is a great spiritual, and has been a great political, power in this country, yet it is not recognised by law and is not capable of owning or exercising proprietary rights. All ecclesiastical property in this country, whether in England or in Wales, is an endowment of some particular benefice or office. That is a fact which is very familiar, though it is sometimes disguised from popular apprehension, particularly, I think, by the operations of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as the House is aware, have, under their Acts and the powers given to them by the Legislature, succeeded to the ownership and occupation of a very large quantity of property, particularly capitular and episcopal property, in England and Wales. The income of that property goes into their common fund, which to a large extent, is not earmarked or specifically appropriated to any particular purpose, and out of that fund so composed the Ecclesiastical Commissioners are in the habit of making grants, sometimes fixed and sometimes variable, in support of endowments, both of sees or benefices. But the fact remains that the whole ecclesiastical property of this country is property annexed to and belonging to particular benefices, particular offices, and particular sees. That, I think, is a fact which it is most important to bear in mind, both in the description of the property, in the first instance, and next when we come to consider the best method of applying it. That being the nature of the title which the Church has to the property which its members enjoy, I have now to ask the House to consider what are the classes and what is the value of the property held or enjoyed by beneficed officers in Wales and Monmouthshire. I regret that information on this subject, so far as it is accessible to the public, is only to be gathered, and gathered in a somewhat fragmentary and imperfect manner, from two Returns—and, so far as I know, only two—made to this House within recent years. One is the Return of the revenues of the Church of England, laid on the Table of the House on June 23, 1891; and there is another short Return made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, I think, on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. T. E. Ellis), showing the income and grants in Wales, and dated May 6, 1889. I shall hope to present to the House, when the Bill is introduced, two additional Returns, one of which will be the summary of the first to which I have referred, so far as it relates to Wales and Monmouthshire, and another which will bring the second up to the present date. The first point I have to make clear is that you must distinguish carefully between the ecclesiastical revenues which arise from Wales and the ecclesiastical revenues which are handed over to and enjoyed by the Church in Wales. The House will presently see that they are two very distinct things. I begin first with the question of the ecclesiastical revenue derived from Wales. The Return divides this, as it does all the property of the Church, into two categories—ancient endowments, and what are called private benefactions since 1703. I shall have something to say later on as to these private benefactions, but for the moment I will omit the comparatively small sum of £13,600 a year, to which they amount, and it need not be seriously considered. The ancient endowments separate themselves into three classes. First of all, there are endowments of parochial benefices, which constitute the great bulk of the whole. The total gross proceeds of those endowments for Wales and Monmouthshire is £233,000 a year, and of this sum no less than £179,000 is derived from tithe-rent charge. The second class consists of endowments of cathedral and collegiate churches not transferred to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and still directly received by the capitular bodies. They amount to the small sum of £3,360 a year. The third head of revenue derived from Wales is the income received by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. That amounts to a gross total for Wales and Monmouthshire of £42,300, of which £27,000 consists of tithe-rent charge. I must here point out that of this £42,300 paid over to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from Wales £12,500 goes at present to English bishoprics and chapters; it is money which is paid out of Wales and does not return to Wales. From the figures I have it appears that the total gross ecclesiastical income derived from Wales and Monmouthshire is £279,000; but that does not give the actual income of the Welsh Church. In the first place, it is a gross total from which probably not less than 25 per cent. ought to be deducted for the cost of collection and other things before we arrive at the net amount. It is further, as I have pointed out, diminished by £12,500 paid by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to English chapters and benefices. That is one side of the account. But on the other there is equally to be borne in mind that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners make grants in Wales out of their common fund very largely in excess of the sums paid over by them in England out of Welsh tithes on Welsh land. I am sorry to say that the figures are not in a condition to be presented to the House conveniently, because in one Return we are dealing with gross revenue, and in the second Return the Ecclesiastical Commissioners themselves were dealing with net revenue. The Return of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of 1889 shows a total net receipt by them from Wales of £28,700. That is to say, the gross sum £42,300 of which I spoke represents a net sum of £28,700. On the other hand, it shows a balance of payments by them to Wales of £67,600. In other words, there is a balance overpaid, if I may use the expression, out of the English Revenues to Wales of about £40,000 a year. I need not say that in the view of the Government that overpayment made to Wales cannot be treated as part of the property of the Welsh Church. I do not think that any of those who represent and strongly advocate the cause of disestablishment and disendowment in Wales are at all anxious to claim that sum. What they are anxious for, as I understand, is that everything at present derived from Wales in the shape of either income from land or tithe-rent charge, however appropriated now, shall be secured in the future for the benefit of Wales; and whatever in excess is paid over to Wales by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners shall go back to the source from which it comes and be at the disposal of the Revenues of the English Church. The result is, that the whole of that sum of £279,000 ought to be regarded as Welsh, though a part of it now goes to England; and, on the other hand, Wales must surrender to England —subject, of course, to existing interests—the additional sum of about £40,000 a year, by which the contribution of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to Wales exceeds what they receive from Wales. In order to give effect to that arrangement the Bill proposes as follows:—That as soon as the Act passes, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, who are also interested, shall, in the first place, ascertain what income vested in them arises from property situated in Wales and Monmouthshire. Having ascertained that, they are to cast upon this income the burden of paying the Welsh episcopal and capitular revenues, amounting to £32,800 a year, which is just about sufficiently met by the net income derived by the Commissioners from Wales, together with the endowments directly received by the Welsh capitular bodies to which I have already referred. The other payments now made by them to England out of Welsh property they will shift on to English property in their possession, with the result, of course, that the English Church and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as representing the Church, will, as the existing interests fall in, be the gainers to the extent of nearly £40,000 a year, while Wales will have charged on exclusively Welsh property the existing interests of both the Bishops and the Incumbents as long as they exist, and when these interests fall in, the whole of this property will be set free for appropriation to purely Welsh purposes. The general effect of that arrangement will be that we shall have two funds to deal with. In the first place, we shall have the endowments of parochial benefices in Wales, at present paid directly out of the tithe and land to the Incumbents, and amounting to a gross total of £233,000 a year. The second fund will be the endowments at present paid to the episcopal and capitular officers in Wales, which amounts, if added to the £42,300 received by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to a gross total of £45,660 a year. I will ask the House to bear in mind that we have these two funds to deal with— first, the local and parochial fund of £233,000 a year, representing the present income from benefices; and secondly, a central fund at present appropriated to the payment of Bishops and chapters which amount to £45,660. I now come to the more interesting question—How are we to deal with these funds? Before I explain our proposals to the House, I must say one or two words with reference to the Irish precedent, from which, as the House shortly will perceive, we propose in dealing with this question to make a somewhat wide departure. The object of the Irish Church Act, and the scheme of disendowment embodied in that Act, was to "wind up," if I may use a secular expression as applied to ecclesiastical affairs, the property of the Church by the machinery of liquidation. The Commissioners appointed under that Act were intended to be, and were, in fact, a merely temporary body appointed for a temporary purpose. Their business was, on the one side, to ascertain the liabilities, and on the other side to realise the assets of the Irish Church. As far as the liabilities were concerned, although in the first instance vested interests were provided for by giving to the holders of them life annuities, yet the scheme of the Act was that these annuities should be commuted by the payment of a capital sum to the representatives of the Church Body, which was then to make arrangements by mutual agreement between itself and the individual annuitants. And so anxious were the framers of the Act to bring about that result, and to get rid of the system of annual payments by substituting a capital sum, that a bonus of no less than 12 per cent. was offered by the Act to every diocese in Ireland, in which no less than three-fourths of the clergy consented to commute their annuities before January 1, 1873. The House is aware from the returns of the Irish Church Commissioners that no diocese in Ireland proved able to resist that temptation; and in the case of every diocese the annuities were commuted before the time prescribed by the Act, and the bonuses were added to the capital sum. The result was that, as far as the liabilities of the State to the Church were concerned, before the expiration of four years from the passing of the Act, all the annuities were practically represented by one large capital sum. On the other hand, the Commissioners, acting under the powers and in pursuance of the intention of the Act, dealt in a similar manner with the assets. They realised the assets. The tithe rent-charge was offered, as it was bound to be by the Act, for redemption by the landowners on very favourable terms, with the result that the great bulk has been extinguished and is now represented by a capital sum. The land vested in the Commissioners was sold by them with a right of pre-emption to the occupying tenants. The result was that you had two lump sums—on the one hand, the capital value of the liabilities of the State to the Church Body in respect of dispossessed and disendowed Incumbents; and, on the other hand, the capital value realised by the sale of the tithe rent-charge and the land and of other assets of the Church. What has been the history of this transaction? The House need not be assured that I am not going to detain it by criticism or adverse comment on the policy of that Act. I do not doubt that under the circumstances of that time it was the best arrangement open to the Government. But the history of it does not encourage us to undertake similar operations. You have had now for nearly 25 years in Ireland, subject to the liability to repay compensation to the dispossessed clergy—you have had at the disposal of the Government and of Parliament a huge capital sum which has offered irresistible temptation in almost every emergency. It has constituted what I may call a kind of emergency reservoir, which has been tapped and drawn upon by successive Governments and Parliaments—and drawn upon not later than last week (or the last attenuated remnant of the fund at least) by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for a most legitimate and wise purpose. It has been drawn upon with such persistence, continuity, and effect that I believe I may honestly and accurately say that now, less than 25 years after the disendowment of the Irish Church, there is practically none of that sum available for any purpose whatever. I have here a list of the various successful attacks which have been made upon the Irish Church Fund. This is a history most pregnant in warning and instruction for the future. It began in 1878 with the Intermediate Education Act, which took £1,000,000; next year the National school-teachers took £1,300,000; in 1880, for the relief of distress, £1,250,000; in 1881, for arrears of rent, £950,000; and in the same year an annuity to the Royal University of £20,000 a year; in 1883, for distressed unions, £30,000; and in the same year, for sea fisheries, £200,000; in 1886, for poor relief and piers and roads, £20,000; and in 1891, for the Congested Districts Board, £1,500,000. In addition to this, you have the estimated capital charge of £600,000 for the annual grant to the Royal University, which makes a total, without counting the last grant made by my right hon. Friend, of £6,870,000, representing, I suppose, the whole of this surplus, which has been disposed of by Parliament in much less than a generation. I am not questioning either the policy of the original Act or the wisdom of each of these successive applications of the surplus; but, having to deal with a new case and having this history before our eyes, we have come to the conclusion that it would be wiser and more politic to adopt a different method. I will state to the House shortly what are the principles upon which we propose to proceed. In the first place, we propose to make such provision in the Act as will prevent the alienation, and will, on the contrary, preserve and safeguard for national and public purposes, the corpus of the property which, when the process of disendowment is complete, will pass from the Church to the nation. In the second place—and this, to my mind, is a more important principle than the other—instead of creating one central general fund applicable to the country as a whole, we propose that, as far as this property is at present attached to localities and parishes, it shall in future be applied and enjoyed locally and parochially. Since 1869, when the Irish Church Act was passed, changes have been made by the Legislature with the consent of both parties in the State in our system of local government which makes this a much easier task to accomplish than it would have been then. We have now, in every area of the country, parish district and county, an organ and representative of local government. We propose to take advantage of the machinery to provide for the local appropriation of the funds, which, if they are thrown into a common reservoir, we are convinced will be squandered and wasted, —funds which may be utilised with the greatest possible benefit as long as they are administered by the localities from which they are drawn. It follows, therefore, that we shall not propose the establishment and aggregation of one central fund of the revenues of the Welsh Church, and as a corollary to that it will not be in our power, and certainly not in our disposition, to propose any capitalisation of the interest of those persons for whom we intend to provide in view of the dispossession which disestablishment and disendowment involve. We propose to constitute, following the precedent of Ireland, a Commission of three, of whom two will be paid. Our purpose is that the chairman shall receive £1,500 a year, and one of the Commissioners £1,000 a year. The third will not be paid at all. [ Laughter ] We think that we may be able to find some patriotic Welshman to take the office. To these Commissioners we propose to give the same powers as were possessed by the Irish Church Commissioners for enforcing the production of evidence and making and executing of orders, and the framing of rules of procedure. But we do not propose that they shall be a temporary Commission. It is an essential part of our schema that there should not be an immediate liquidation either of the assets or of the liabilities of the Welsh Church. That being so, there must be a continuing body to superintend and take an active part in the work of administration. The Commissioners will have the necessary borrowing powers for the purpose of carrying on their operations, and will be required, as were the Irish Commissioners, to lay their accounts before Parliament.

They will be paid out of the funds of the Welsh Church. To these Welsh Commissioners the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will deliver up all books and documents relating to any Welsh property over which they have control. I now come to the question of vesting the property. In the first place, between the passing of the Act and the date of disestablishment, it will be the duty of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to ascertain what property vested in them is derived from Wales, to what extent that property at present bears charges of English episcopal and capitular endowments, and to readjust those charges so that what at present falls on the Welsh property shall in future fall on English property. Welsh property now in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will be burdened solely and exclusively with the charges for Welsh purposes. When the adjustment has been made and at the date of disestablishment the property so charged, together with all property belonging to the Church in Wales, will vest immediately in the Welsh Commissioners. It. will vest subject to two burdens. In the first place, it will be subject to all interests upon it and to the existing interests of every Incumbent and holder of an ecclesiastical office in Wales. We do not propose that the Commissioners shall retain in their hands the bulk of this property, but that they shall transfer the greater part of it to the various authorities in Wales. In the case of the churches, we propose that all of them, except the cathedrals, shall, on the application of the representative body of the Church, be vested by the Commissioners in that body, subject to all public and private rights which now exist, and to the effective use and enjoyment attached thereto. In that respect we are following strictly the Irish precedent. The cathedrals cannot be regarded as being in the same position as the churches, and we believe that they ought to be treated as national monuments. Having been vested in the Com- missioners, they will be retained by them with the obligation to maintain them and keep them in repair, an obligation which might be onerous if thrown upon the representative body. But on the request of the representative body it will be the duty of the Commissioners to permit the cathedrals to continue to be used for the purpose of Divine service. [ Opposition laughter. ] I do not see why that should excite laughter, but my impression is that some hon. Members representing Wales believe that we have gone to extreme limits in going as far as we have done in this matter. With reference to a small head of property which it is not right to omit —namely, the movable chattels, such as plate and furniture used in connection with Divine worship—we propose that they shall be vested in the representative body. I now come to another and more difficult matter—the question of parsonage houses. In Ireland the parsonage or glebe houses were offered to the representative body for what turned out in practice to be a nominal sum. They were allowed to retain them for a certain number of years' purchase of the value of the site, without counting the value of the buildings. As the glebe houses were offered on these terms; and as the Incumbents were allowed to treat the full value of the houses as part of the sum in respect of which they were entitled to compensation, the State made a bad bargain. The Irish Commissioners thought that it would have been much better if the houses had been handed over free of charge to the representative body. In the case of Wales and of England the Ecclesiastical Commissioners say that certainly two-thirds of the cost of the parsonage houses may be regarded as having been drawn from private benefactions and from payments made by the clergy out of their own incomes. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have made and do make very considerable grants for this purpose in Wales, and we think that on the whole it will be right, as regards the interests of the Church, and no injustice to the interests of the community, to hand over these parsonage houses to the representative body of the Church. In making that statement I must again distinguish between the ordinary parsonage houses occupied by Incumbents and the episcopal and capitular residences. As regards these, we propose that they should be retained by the Welsh Commissioners, who should continue to permit their use as ecclesiastical residences subject to the obligation on the representative body to maintain and keep them in repair. Before I finish what I have to say as to what is to be left to the representative body, I must just mention the subject of private benefactions. They amount in Wales to a comparatively small sum—I think not much more than £13,000 a year. But private benefactions are defined in this, as in the Irish Act, as—

"Property which has been given by any private person out of his own resources or consists of or is produced by money raised by private subscription, and does not come within the description of Church or ecclesiastical residence, for which provision is otherwise made by this Act."

A very serious and difficult question in connection with private benefactions is to determine the date from which property so left shall be so considered. In introducing the Irish Church Act of 1869 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian suggested that the date should be that of 1660. We have considered the various dates that should be taken in reference to Wales, and think that the date should be a later one. We have, on the whole, come to the conclusion that we ought to take as our date 1703, when Queen Anne's Bounty was established, because it was only from that year that it became possible, through the machinery of Queen Anne's Bounty, for private persons, without offending against the laws, to invest in property of that description for ecclesiastical purposes. I know it is very possible that we may be met with the suggestion that we are going back too far, and that we ought to take a more recent date; but the more you investigate this question the more you will find that it is a question not worth disputing. The number of private benefactions given in the course of the 18th century to Wales were very small. The number which exists in Wales at the present moment is very small. The total annual value is not more than £13,000, and I think in a matter of this kind, where there is any doubt, we ought to let the balance incline in the direction of generosity; and I am myself clearly of opinion that the whole of these private benefactions since 1703 may properly and legitimately be made over to the representative body. I now come to some other heads of property with regard to which that cannot be said. First, I take the burial-grounds. We propose that the burial-grounds shall be vested, subject to all public and private rights of burial, in rural parishes, in the Parish Council, or where the parish, from the number of its population, has no Parish Council, in the chairman and overseers of the parish; and in other cases—that is to say, urban districts—in the case of county boroughs in the Council of the borough, and in the case of county districts in the District Council of the district. I do not think that that is a proposal, in the present state of the Burial Law, and the rights which Parliament has conferred on Nonconformists, and their rights of sepulchre in the parish churchyards of the country with their own Religious Service, to which any reasonable exception can be taken. I now come to the glebe, and there, subject to the interests of the existing incumbents, we propose that the glebe shall be vested, in the rural parishes, in the Parish Council or the chairman and overseers, or, in urban districts, in the Council of the borough or District Council. Lastly, I have to deal with tithe rent-charge. We propose that tithe rent-charge, which is, after all, the most valuable asset of the Church in Wales, shall be vested in the County Council of the county within which the lands out of which it arises are situated. We think the cost and trouble of collection will be too great to make it practicable to vest the tithe rent-charge in the Parish Council, and it would be the duty of the County Council to collect it. Thus the interests of the different parishes will be duly safeguarded. All the other classes of property will remain in the Commissioners, who will have full powers of management. Neither they nor any of the Local Authorities will be able to sell, alienate, or exchange the property without the consent of the Local Government Board. Now I come to the question of the manner in which we propose to treat existing interests—that is to say, of Bishops, clergy, and laymen who have valuable interests in the endowments of the Church in Wales. Before I proceed to detail, I will found myself upon a definition which is, I believe, the best which has ever been given of a vested interest in an ecclesiastical property, and which is to be found in a speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian, delivered in this House on March 1, 1869, in moving for leave to disestablish the Irish Church.

"The vested interest of the incumbent,"

said my right hon. Friend—and he uses the term "incumbent" to describe not merely the parish clergy, but the Bishop or holder of the ecclesiastical office or benefice—

"is quite distinct from his expectation of promotion … It is a title to receive a certain net income from the property of the Church … The vested interest with which we have to deal is the right of the incumbent to be secured in the receipt of a certain annual income from the property of the Church in consideration of the discharge of certain duties to which he is bound, as the equivalent he gives for that income, and subject to the laws by which he is bound of the Religious Body to which he belongs."

It is in that sense, and in that sense only, that we propose in this Bill to recognise existing vested interests in the Church in Wales. Wherever a person, be he clergyman or be he layman, at present enjoys a freehold office in the Church in consideration of the performance of service or of duty to the Church, he ought, in our opinion, to receive under this measure depriving him of his office, changing his status, and disestablishing the Church, to be placed in the same position pecuniarily as he was before Parliament made that change in his status and the status of the Church. In our judgment, you cannot justly give less than that to the person who is at present in the exercise and enjoyment of the particular office from which we propose, in the interest of the community at large, to displace him. But, on the other hand, although he is enjoying a freehold office, and is entitled to the emoluments which belong to it, he holds and enjoys that office conditionally on the performance of the duties that are attached to it, and he is not entitled to go on receiving what he has hitherto received, except in so far or so long as he continues to perform the duties for which the stipend and pecuniary emoluments are given. That, I think, is a fair and just principle. We therefore propose that, so long as the holder of any existing benefice or office performs the duties of the office which he held at the date of disestablishment, or is only prevented from so doing by some cause other than his own wilful default, he shall be entitled to receive the same emoluments— neither more nor less—as he would have been if the Church had not been disendowed. The practical effect of that will be, as regards the parsonage and glebe, that the incumbent will remain in possession so long as he lives and performs the duties of the cure, and he will continue to receive the rents and profits as regards the tithe rent-charge, which is, after all, the largest ingredient in the income of the Welsh clergy. He will no longer collect the tithe rent-charge, but will receive from the Welsh Commissioners the net proceeds of that charge as far as is appropriate to his particular parish, after deduction of the costs of collection. I said a tew moments ago that the tithe rent - charge is to be vested in the County Council. We think it very undesirable to bring the County Council and the existing incumbents into the direct relation of paymasters and recipients. Accordingly, so long as these existing interests continue, it will be the duty of the County Council, when it has collected the tithe and deducted from the sum received the necessary expenses of collection, to pay over to the Commissioners so much of their tithe as is needed to meet the interests which have not expired and to secure the performance of the duties. The amount required by the Commissioners will be a debt from the County Council to the Commissioners, and will be charged upon the County Fund. We do not think there will be any reluctance on the part of the County Council to perform this duty. What they will be doing will be keeping alive and collecting a fund in the whole of which they have a direct reversionary interest, and parts of which will be falling into their possession year after year. It will be said, I have no doubt, that this is a slow process, and that it will postpone for an indefinite period the ultimate enjoyment by the Welsh people of the property of the Church. I agree that that is so, and so far as that is a drawback it is a drawback we must acknowledge and put up with. For what is the alternative? The alternative is to adopt the Irish plan and to go in for a system of commutation. You cannot compel a man to commute; and, in order to induce him to do so, you will have to do what the Legislature had to do in the case of Ireland, and that is, offer him—I will not call it a bribe—but better terms in the shape of some bonus or additional pecuniary inducement than ex hypothesi a compensated person is entitled to by law. What was the cost in the case of the Irish Church? The figures are very instructive. In the case of the Irish Church the original estimate of the cost of buying out existing interests was, as presented to this House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian after the most careful computation, £5,700,000. But what was the actual cost? It was, including an added bonus of 12 per cent., £7,550,000. In other words, the estimate was exceeded by a sum of nearly £2,000,000 sterling. I may point out, further, that commutation necessarily involves a liquid central fund from which the necessary balance to meet the capital charge can be drawn. If you are securing to each parish its share in the endowments of the Church, it would be a task of inextricable confusion and insuperable difficulty to apportion the capital charge so that each particular parish shall bear its own share both of principal and interest. Although I admit the drawbacks of the plan we propose, I consider the arguments against the alternative plan of commutation to be far stronger. At the same time, we feel that a system absolutely stereotyping existing interests might bear hardly both on the Church and on the Welsh people. It would bear hardly upon the Church, because a man would be tied to the living where he happened to be at the time disestablishment took place. He could not leave that living. He could not be promoted, however deserving he might be and however much his services might be required elsewhere, without losing the emoluments for his life and without the church coming under the obligation of providing the endowment for the living which he leaves. On the other hand, it might bear hardly on the Welsh people in parishes where there was a mere handful of people, and where there was no real use in keeping up Church services, having regard to the spiritual requirements of the population. Those seem to us to be very serious evils, and we therefore propose, by way of meeting them, an alternative under which the incumbent who comes under the operation of this Act may exchange his existing interest, so long as he continues to discharge the duties of the benefice, for a compensation annuity on a lower scale, and in the Schedule we have provided such scale. If the incumbent is 50 years or upwards, he is to receive three-fourths of the net emoluments of his benefice; if he is less than 50, a reduction of l-50th will be made for every year wanting to make up his age to 50 years. To take a typical case, if the income of a benefice is £666 6s. 8d., the incumbent who is 50 years old would receive an annuity of £500; if he is 40, he would receive £400; if 30, £300; and so on in proportion. We think it desirable, if that alternative is taken advantage of, that the consent of the Church Body should be necessary. Otherwise we might have an incumbent taking his stipend on the lower scale and walking off to some other benefice. I must now say one word with reference to curates. Curates do not fall within the definition of a vested interest which I quoted. They are not holders of freehold offices. They hold at the will of the person who employs them. In the case of Ireland curates were compensated, but we have not followed that precedent. In Ireland the curates were divided into two classes —permanent and non-permanent. The permanent curate, if I may say so without offence, was permanent in an Irish sense, and was treated as permanent if he had been in enjoyment of his cure for five years or less. He was to have an annuity equal to his income, which continued so long as he discharged spiritual duties in Ireland; but the non-permanent curate was to receive a gratuity according to a scale prescribed by the Act. My right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian, in introducing the Irish Church Bill, said he did not propose in compensating curates to invade the public or national fund. The subsequent history of the matter is very curious. Curates were to be compensated if they were curates in 1871; that was two years after the passing of the Act, and in the course of that period there was an extraordinary and unprecedented multiplication in the number of curates. Never, in fact, has a country been so prolific in the production of curates as Ireland was at that time, for between 1869 and 1871 the number of curates increased from 563 to 921. There were others who were not treated as permanent, but these 921 all obtained compensation under the Act, on the footing that they were entitled, so long as they discharged spiritual duties in Ireland, to continue to receive an annuity equal to the income they received at the date of disestablishment; and yet of the whole 921 there were only 153 whose annuities were deducted from the annuities paid to the incumbent, so that a curate was able in Ireland to get a life annuity for himself, and yet he was not permanent enough for that annuity to be charged upon the life interest of the incumbent. Ex hypothesi, he had been permanently serving prior to the Act. The result of the measure was that by the 12 per cent. bonus given a sum of no less than £1,730,000 was paid to the curates in Ireland to buy them out. When the House considers that not one of them possessed a freehold, and came within the definition of a vested interest, which I have read, I think, in this respect, the precedes of the Irish Church is one which we should do well not to follow. I believe the arrangement under which the curates were made permanent for one purpose and not for another was not due to the framers of the Bill, but was one of those amendments on the scope of the Act to which we are constantly indebted to the more mature and dispassionate wisdom of a revising authority elsewhere. We do not think the curates have any claim to be treated as having a separate claim for compensation. If the curate's salary is paid out of the incumbent's income, so long as the incumbent gets, as he will under this Bill, secured to him for life his present income, if he is minded to continue the services of the curate, he will be able to pay him exactly what he does now, and the curate's position will not be injuriously affected at all. If, on the other hand, the curate is paid from other sources, as a number are paid in Wales, partly out of grants contributed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, the Commissioners will be empowered, so far as existing interests are concerned, and no further, to continue to make those grants; and I do not know any reason why they should discontinue them, or why the liberality of Churchmen, which makes up the difference, should run dry in consequence of the passing of this Bill. There is one other class of persons and one other only with which I have to deal before I pass from the question of vested interests, and that is the lay patrons of the Church. In this Bill, as in the Irish Act of 1869, no public patron will be entitled to receive compensation for the loss of his patronage. We have endeavoured to ascertain what are the facts and figures in relation to patronage in Wales, and upon a rough calculation we arrive at the following result:—Out of about 970 benefices 626 are in the hands of what may be called public patrons— that is to say, either Bishops, chapters, and incumbents, the Crown and the Lord Chancellor, or the Colleges of Oxford and Cambridge. The residue, 344, or a little more than one-third of the whole, are in private patronage. Here, again, the experience of the Irish Act is very useful. Under section 18 of the Irish Act private patrons were to be compensated for loss of their advowsons, and if they were not satisfied with the sum awarded to them by the Commissioners they were entitled to refer the matter to arbitration. We learn from the Commissioners that the sale of advowsons was a very rare thing in Ireland—was, indeed, so rare that in several cases no evidence showing the market value could be obtained. If the amount offered 'by the Commissioners was not agreed to the case was referred to arbitration, and as, in some cases selected as typical, the arbitrator largely augmented the sum fixed by the Commissioners, the Commission felt bound to adopt that scale in dealing with the remainder, and consequently they were obliged to allow a much higher compensation than had been contemplated. And even where they allowed compensation on the principle of the typical cases, yet the amount was still increased on reference to arbitration of 301 cases in which a total sum of £778,000 was awarded for advowsons which were hardly marketable and in respect to which no evidence of market value could be obtained. Three hundred owners of advowsons succeeded in securing no less than £750,000 sterling No wonder that the Commissioners observe in their Report of 1880 that—

"The experience of the working of the arbitration clause with respect to advowsons is calculated to raise a doubt whether such a tribunal is an eligible one where the claimant is an individual, and where the defendants represent the public funds."

I think that since the passing of the Act of 1869 opinion has changed—I will not say advanced—but it has been largely modified on this subject, and I believe it has changed quite as much, if not more, within the Church itself as in the opinion of persons outside. We have, moreover, but few valuable advowsons in Wales. I am told that sales are exceedingly rare, and that those that have been actually effected have been at prices upon a low and meagre scale. Since the Act of 1869 we have a precedent which we propose to follow partly, because the precedent was set by a Conservative Government and passed by a Parliament in which there was a large Conservative majority—I refer to the abolition of the rights of patronage in the Scotch Church in 1874. We propose to follow exactly the precedent of that Act. I do not think it would be right or consistent with precedent to take away this class of property, however insignificant in value, without giving the owners a right to compensation. We propose that, as in the case of the Scotch Church, any patrons may claim compensation, but I doubt very much whether a large number will claim compensation. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, in Scotland, hardly any one did. There were only one or two cases in which claims were made under the Act. [An hon. MEMBER: There was no confiscation in Scotland.] An hon. Member says that in that case there was no confiscation; but there was confiscation exactly in the same sense, and neither more nor less than in this Bill. The Legislature for public purposes took away rights of property previously guaranteed by law. What we propose is to follow the procedure of the Scotch Act and to require any patron who chooses to make a claim to send in his application within six months of the passing of the Act. We propose further to provide, as it was provided in the Scotch Act, that the compensation shall not in any case exceed, although it may be less, one year's emoluments of the benefice on the average of its emoluments in the three years prior to the passing of the Act. ["Oh, oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen opposite are much shocked; but we are following the pre- cedent of their own Government. We propose that this sum, whatever it may be, whether it amounts to or falls short of one year's emoluments, shall not be paid until the occurrence of a vacancy, and then, on the falling-in of the vested interest, that the patron shall be allowed 3 per cent. interest during the time he is kept out of his money. As to the other lay officers of the Church, they are few in number, and I need only say that provisions are made to compensate them for any loss they may sustain. I now come to the ultimate application, subject to the claims of existing interests, of the fund which will be placed at the disposal of the Welsh people. I have already said that the property with which we have to deal may be divided into two classes. First, what I called parochial property, which is now annexed to particular benefices; and, secondly, central property now held by episcopal and capitular bodies, and vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. As to both properties alike we have enumerated in the Schedule of the Bill the purposes to which they may be applied by the authorities whom I shall afterwards describe. The Schedule says that the purposes to which the property may be applied are as follows:— The erection or support of cottage or other hospitals, or dispensaries, or convalescent homes, the provision of trained nurses for the sick poor, the foundation and maintenance of public, parish, or district halls, institutes, and libraries, the provision of labourers' dwellings and allotments, the support of technical and higher education, including the establishment and maintenance of a National Library, Museum, or Academy of Art, and any other public purpose of local and general utility for which provision has not been made by Statute out of public rates. These being the ultimate purposes to which the fund is destined, the machinery of its application will vary according as it belongs to one or other of the categories I have described. In the case of the parochial funds the property will be applied under schemes to be made by the County Councils for the various counties and to be approved by the Commissioners. It will be an Instruction contained in the Act, which will have to be followed in the framing and carrying out of these schemes, that the interests of the particular parish out of which the parochial fund arises shall be mainly and primarily considered. With reference to the central fund, derived from episcopal and capitular revenues, the administration will remain in the hands of the Commissioners themselves. It will be a small fund compared with the other, but yet I think it may be usefully applied to purposes of a general character connected with the interests of the Principality as a whole. That fund is to be charged in the first instance with the expenses of administering the Act; and the surplus is to be applied, under schemes to be framed by the Commissioners themselves, subject to appeal to the Queen in Council, with a provision that not less than two-thirds is to be devoted to technical and higher education, including in particular the establishment and maintenance of a National Library, Museum, and Academy of Art. The Commissioners are to have power to vest property in, or to appropriate it to the use of, the newly-constituted University of Wales or any joint committee of the County Councils.

The Commissioners may borrow; not the County Councils. There are no borrowing powers given to anyone but the Commissioners.

The schemes to be framed by the County Council may contemplate borrowing?

* : No; that is not the intention. The schemes to be framed by the County Councils will be schemes appropriating the income from property which will be vested in them or in the parishes. The borrowing powers will be confined to the Commissioners. We hope in this way to safeguard, as a possession for ever and not as a mere dwindling fund to be drawn upon to meet the transient exigencies of the hour, this national property, so that it may be applied to purposes of local and general interest for which at present no provision or no adequate provision is made by the law of the land. We have sought, as far as we could, to conciliate and harmonise all these local and general interests. We recognise to the full that as to the bulk of the property the locality has the first claim, and that the fund should be applied to the benefit of the locality. We do not think we are either flying in the face of Welsh sentiment or doing injustice to the claims of localities if we reserve this central fund, at present devoted to no local purposes, for application to purposes in which Wales as a whole is interested, and of which no local community can be expected to bear the burden. The localities have the first claim; but they are only tributaries to the great general stream of Welsh national life. I apologise to the House for the great length at which I have addressed it. There are, of course, in the Bill a number of minor provisions with which I have not attempted to deal, as they would encumber the already too cumbersome exposition of the Bill which I have given to the House. I will venture to appeal to the House to reserve detailed criticism until they see the Bill itself in print. In 1869, on the introduction of the Irish Church Bill—a Bill of greater complexity than this—Mr. Disraeli, who was then the Leader of the Conservative Party, stated, I suppose with the general concurrence of his Party, that in his opinion, provided ample time were given between the First Reading and the Second Reading for the full consideration of the provisions, it would be wiser and better not to enter, on the necessarily imperfect exposition of a Minister, upon a criticism of the plan of the Government; and I find from Hansard that so literally and faithfully was that advice followed that the House positively had the advantage of rising that evening at half-past 8 o'clock. I do not feel justified in anticipating any such good fortune on the present occasion. But, without in any way deprecating natural and legitimate criticism, I do feel that minute criticism may very well be postponed until the Bill is in the hands of Members. We present this Bill to Parliament in the firm belief that if it be carried it will not hinder, but it will rather help, the work of the Church in Wales. ["Oh, oh!"] I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite will not give us the credit for that belief. They cannot conceive that in a matter of this kind we can be actuated by higher motives than the most miserable and transient considerations of petty Party expediency. We believe that in submitting this Bill to Parliament we are taking the best step that statesmanship can devise to put an end to a state of things which, so long as it lasts, will be a constant source of em- bitterment and animosity amongst the various sections of the community which constitute the Principality, and which, as a source of embitterment and animosity, must largely hamper the efforts which they are all making to improve and advance the religious and spiritual condition of the people. We rest our position upon the broad principles of justice. We cannot believe it to be to the interest of the Church—we know it is not to the interest of the State—to maintain in the country in a position of privilege and ascendency a Church which represents the religious opinions of a small minority, and which enjoys exclusively property which, in our view, is national property, to be appropriated to national purposes, by no other title than an historical title the origin of which will not bear careful examination, and which certainly has not been strengthened in its hold upon the convictions and confidence of the Welsh people by the events which have since occurred. We think that in this Bill we do no injustice to the Church. We preserve jealously, aye, and I will even say generously, every interest which is entitled to recognition or consideration at the hands of Parliament. Subject to that, we set free for purposes of great and lasting public benefit a property to which the Welsh people, and the Welsh people alone, have, in our opinion, a legitimate title.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the temporalities thereof."—( Mr. Secretary Asquith. )

* : Mr. Speaker, whatever our opinions may be as to the policy Her Majesty's Government have adopted, or as to the views which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed, I think we shall all agree that we are deeply indebted to him for the able and lucid manner in which he has explained this Bill. But in the whole course of my Parliamentary experience I never remember a measure of such importance presented to the House of Commons supported by so little argument. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the introduction of the Irish Church Bill in 1869, and to the brief period occupied by the Debate on the First Reading. Has he forgotten that the whole question of principle had been threshed out in Debates occupying days and weeks in this House before the introduction of the Bill? Has he forgotten that the subject had been brought before the country at a General Election, at which the electors had pronounced in favour of that policy, and that therefore all that remained for the Minister to do was to explain to the House of Commons the mode in which he proposed to give effect to it? In the matter which they have taken up to-night I think Her Majesty's Government have attempted to deal with as grave and difficult a question as could be considered by Parliament. It is nothing less than an alteration in those relations between Church and State which have existed in this country longer than the House of Commons itself, and which are more deeply intertwined with every root of the history of our social and national life than, perhaps, any part of our political system. I congratulate, at any rate, Her Majesty's Government that in approaching this question they have approached it in a different manner to that of last year. The unfortunate fate of the right hon. Gentleman last year was this—that he had to produce a miserable Suspensory Bill, which, if it had become law, would have been on the point of expiring at the present moment. It would have done absolutely no good to the advocates of disestablishment and disendowment, while, on the other hand, it would have conferred no slight injury and annoyance on the members of the Church—a Bill which fell still-born at the moment of its introduction, and which everybody knew would not proceed any further, because it was obviously only a sop to induce the Welsh Radicals to support the Government in their Home Rule policy. It had that effect, and it wasted a night of our Parliamentary time, and that is, I think, a sufficient epitaph for the Bill. The Bill the right hon. Gentleman proposes to lay before the House tonight is a very different measure. What is the reason for the changed course the Government have adopted in regard to this great question? Some men attribute it to the pressure of their Welsh supporters. We hear very often a good deal of talk from the Welsh supporters of the Government as to what they will do in certain contin- gencies. That talk has never yet proceeded to deeds, and I believe it never will. I do not think Her Majesty's Government have been influenced in their changed attitude to this question by any fear of a Welsh revolt; but I do think they have been influenced by a certain change that has occurred in the composition of the Government. We all know how long and steadfastly the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian resisted this policy of disestablishment and disendowment in Wales as against a Church of which he was certainly an attached member. We know that he would have been a most reluctant supporter and a still more reluctant promoter of such a Bill as has been laid before the House to-night. He has gone from the position which he occupied, and we have in his place a Prime Minister who " cares for none of these things," who is ready to support one Established Church in any part of the United Kingdom, or several Established Churches, or none at all, but who has a holy horror of an Established Church whose members vote against his political opinions. Then, in the Leader of this House we have a very able man, who, I remember, a good many years ago said that, in his opinion, he was a purblind politician who could not see that in the event of disestablishment the residuary legatee would be the Church of Rome. I do not think that, the right hon. Gentleman liked that prospect then; I wonder how he likes it now? He has been sitting for some time past on the fence, and has now comfortably come down upon the disestablishment side. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary is a politician of a different calibre. I believe in introducing this Bill he is expressing his own opinion and that of the great majority of the Cabinet; that it is introduced because they believe in a policy of disestablishment and disendowment on account of its own merits. The right hon. Gentleman assents to that proposition. I am glad to hear it, for the fact removes this subject from that wretched position in which it has hitherto been placed by gentlemen on that Bench—namely, that they supported disestablishment and disendowment, not with reference to the merits of the question, but merely because a majority of the electors of one part of the United Kingdom require it. We know now the case we have to deal with, and the country will know, too, what is the policy of the Government. But, Sir, if this measure is promoted, as it is now, on its merits, we are entitled, and the country is entitled, to call upon the right hon. Gentleman for some exposition of the arguments by which it is to be justified. It is surely no light matter to alter the connection between Church and State in this country which has existed for so many ages, and which, if abolished, will, I believe, be a serious loss to the great bulk of the people of this country, and will benefit none, not even those who, in my opinion, are moved by envy and jealousy to agitate for it now. It is surely no light thing that you should say to the Church that she has no title whatever to the endowments which she never received from the State, but which were given to her by pious donors in generations past; that you should state, as if it were a matter that did not admit of argument, that the State has a right to take away that which the State never bestowed; and that revenues, which you admit are dealt with in a way which does very much good, should be taken away from the body that possesses them, when you are absolutely unable to show how they can be devoted to any better purpose. The right hon. Gentleman last year spoke of those who opposed this policy on its merits as belated controversialists. I will venture to say for myself, and I think I may for many others, that, in our opinion, disendowment spells the same thing as plunder and sacrilege; and I know no other meaning that can be attached to those two last words than such a proposition as that laid before the House by Her Majesty's Government tonight. The right hon. Gentleman seems to consider that because the Liberal Party is pledged to this policy, and because, forsooth, nearly the whole of the Representatives in this House from Wales desire it, that therefore this is sufficient justification for its introduction. I think we may fairly answer that by saying that the Conservative Party is pledged against it, and that, in our opinion, which I think would be accepted by any fair-minded man who has heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, this is not a matter which relates to Wales alone. It is a matter which vitally affects the Church of England, and upon which the votes of the great majority of English Members are opposed to the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman has quoted the Irish precedent, but that is only begging the question, unless you can show, what I think cannot be shown, that the cases are identical, or what I think the right hon. Gentleman himself seems to doubt, that the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church has been, on the whole, an unmixed benefit to Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman condescended to certain statements which I cannot call arguments, because some of them were, I think, at variance with historical facts and others of them answered each other. He referred to the Church in Wales as something like an alien Church. It has been conclusively proved in this House by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian that the Church in Wales is as much the Welsh Church as the Church in England is the English Church. The right hon. Gentleman opposite spoke of it as a symbol of national discord. Why is it a symbol of national discord? Is it because the Church in past generations in Wales did not do its duty to the people among whom it was placed? ["Hear, hear!"] The sentiment is cheered. Does not even the hon. Member who cheers it know that if there was a deadness in the Church of Wales, as undoubtedly there was 100 years ago, that was the fault, not of the Church or of its ministers, but of the Governments of this country in London, who prevented the Church by their action from doing the work which it might otherwise have done? That fact, again, has been conclusively proved by the right hon. Member for Midlothian. Does the right hon. Gentleman contend that it is solely a Welsh Church? The right hon. Member for Midlothian has again conclusively proved that the Church has been one in England and Wales for many centuries of its history, and it is our intention on this side of the House by all the exertions in our power to keep her so. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Church is to blame for the zeal and assiduity which she now devotes to her work? He did not say anything of the kind, but that is the real root of the attack now made upon her. He charged her with including but a small minority of the population. Well, Sir, she is making every exertion to include a majority within her fold. If she does so, what is said of her? If she points to enormously increased numbers in her schools, in the number of persons confirmed, and in her communicants, she is told that she is proselytising and kidnapping. She is told that she, the Church of the rich, is making an aggression on the Church of the poor. She is blamed because she did nothing in the past and because she does too much now, and the reward that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to her ministers for the zeal and activity which he admits, is that they shall be deprived of payment for the work which they do. Now, there is one stock argument, and as far as I know one argument only, which I need notice at any greater length in connection with this matter. It is this, that because nearly all the Members of Parliament from Wales are in favour of this policy, therefore it should be adopted by Parliament. In the first place, I would venture to suggest that the proportion between the number of Representatives from Wales who are in favour of this policy and those who are against it is very different from the proportion between the number of electors who voted in favour of it and the number who voted against it.

An hon. MEMBER: No!

Oh! but it is so. There were one-third, and more than one-third, of the electors of Wales at the last General Election who voted for candidates who would have been opposed to the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

I may say that many of the Unionist candidates were in favour of disestablishment.

* : The hon. Member, if he objects to my statements or can prove that they are incorrect, will have an opportunity of replying. But I go on to say that even if he were right as to the proportion of those Welsh electors who voted for this policy as compared with those who voted against it, I think we have seen some recent symptoms in a certain Welsh county, which I do not think hon. Members from Wales will deny, that these proportions may be considerably altered when another General Election comes upon us. But, taking the matter as it stands, supposing, if you like, that less than one-third of the Welsh electors are against the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church, is that any reason why the Church is to be disestablished and disendowed in Wales— the Church which is not only of Wales, but also of England? Now, there is nothing which Parliament has ever done for Wales which justifies such an argument as that. I know there have been matters, such as intermediate education, turnpikes, and Sunday closing, in which Parliament has legislated separately for Wales, but each and all of those subjects are matters which really might be left to be legislated for by the County Council of any county in the Kingdom. They are purely local matters; they have no importance whatever beyond the immediate locality concerned. That is not the case with the policy which Her Majesty's Government have proposed tonight. That is a policy dealing with the whole interests of England and Wales. They cannot deny it. It is so; and the only argument on which the claim can be justified that the majority of the Welsh electors or of the Welsh Members shall decide the policy of Parliament on the subject of the Church in Wales is that Wales is entitled to be dealt with and considered as a separate nationality. Now, I am sure that Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to admit that Wales can be considered and dealt with as a separate nationality. They have given no sign whatever that any of them are prepared to make any proposals upon that subject to the extent to which they went last Session with regard to Ireland, but even if they did, they declined to allow the Irish Legislature to deal with questions of the establishment and endowment of a Church, and how can they claim for Wales, on which they do not propose to confer Home Rule, greater powers to decide questions of the establishment and endowment of a Church than they proposed in the case of Ireland? I hope I shall not give offence to hon. Members from Wales, who, I know, are very sensitive upon the subject, but I would venture to deny that, historically, Wales has any claim to be considered as a separate nationality at all. Why, as we have heard to-night from the right hon. Gentleman, Wales has not even any recognised national boundary. Nobody can tell where the boundary of Wales ends and where the boundary of England begins. The right hon. Gentleman is obliged by his Bill to include Monmouthshire in Wales, although civilly Monmouthshire is outside it. When the right hon. Gentleman talked of Monmouthshire as predominatingly Welsh, it occurred to me that if he had consulted the figures of the last Census I think he would have found something like this result—that whereas about 217,000 persons in Monmouthshire speak English only, only one-sixth of that number speak Welsh or are bi-lingual, and I think only something like 8,000 speak Welsh only.

* : I did not say Welsh-speaking. What I said was of predominatingly Welsh habits and sympathies.

But if a person cannot speak Welsh, is he or is he not a Welshman? All I wish to argue is this—that, so far as boundaries are concerned, there is no dividing national boundary for Wales. But Wales has not the essentials, and never had the essentials, of a separate national existence. Wales has never had a capital common to both North and South Wales. Even now, if Welshmen desire to meet in conference from North and South Whales, they have to meet at Shrewsbury. Wales has never had a separate government—a single government for the whole country, or a single Legislature for the whole country. She never has had a separate national existence, and therefore I contend that to claim that this question shall be decided with reference to the Church on the ground of separate Welsh nationality is to set up a claim which the policy and actions of Her Majesty's Government have absolutely negatived, and which nothing in history can support. I really feel myself debarred from going at length into arguments against the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. We are on the defence. It is for those who attack the institution which we defend to produce in the first place their arguments against it. Beyond a few set phrases, which I think the right hon. Gentleman has picked up from some of his Welsh allies, and which I cannot imagine he really believes himself, he gave us no argument whatever on behalf of this measure. I will turn for a few minutes to the consideration—I hope not too detailed consideration, which I agree with the right hon. Gentleman cannot be entered upon with advantage now—of some of the provisions of the Bill. In the first place, with regard to the disestablishment part of the measure. The right hon. Gentleman has based himself on the model of the Irish Act. But I do not think he laid sufficient stress on the complete difference qua Establishment between the circumstances with which he has to deal in this case and those with which the Irish Act had to deal. The Irish Church was a separate Church—ecclesiastically a completely separate Church. She was united, it is true, by Act of Parliament with the English Church, but by Act of Parliament only. She was completely separate in every other way, and therefore it was a very much simpler and easier matter for Parliament to deal with the disestablishment of the Irish Church than it is for Parliament to deal with the disestablishment of what is not a Welsh Church at all, but four dioceses in Wales which form part of the Church of England. Now, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman admits that disestablishment in this Bill means the complete abolition, so far as these dioceses are concerned, of all ecclesiastical law, of the provincial courts, of Convocation, of patronage, of Church discipline, of power over Church ritual and ceremonies—of the whole law, in fact, which governs a Church. These dioceses, with respect to that, are to be completely cut off by disestablishment from the rest of the Church of England. What is to be their relation to the Church of England in the future? Now, that is a very important question, which the right hon. Gentleman, so far as I heard, has not attempted to explain. He practically, as far as I could see, proposes to establish, by Act of Parliament, ecclesiastical anarchy in Wales. No doubt he leaves it open to a Church Body, if a Church Body be constituted, although he does not propose to constitute one by the Bill—he leaves it open to a Church Body to constitute itself, and for its members to subject themselves, if they choose, to any laws they may desire. But I think we are entitled to some fuller explanation than we have yet received from the right hon. Gentleman— though I hope he will not supose I am in any way finding fault with the fullness with which he has explained his Bill— of the manner in which these four dioceses are to govern themselves; by what law they are to be governed; and what is to be their precise relation to their brethren in the English Church? The Church of Ireland is a separate and independent body. Are these four Welsh dioceses to be a separate and independent Church? If that be so, the right hon. Gentleman wantonly, and I will add wickedly, mutilates the Church of England. I am talking not of temporalities but of ecclesiastical and spiritual affairs. What right has he to suggest to Parliament that Parliament should strike off these four dioceses, qua their ecclesiastical and spiritual government, from the Church of England, leaving them and their members stripped in the wilderness, competing on what he is pleased to call a footing of equality with those different denominations, well organised and well endowed, whom he takes care to leave alone? The right hon. Gentleman poses as the friend of the Church in Wales. I wish he would go to one of these Welsh denominations who know pretty well the value of endowments and suggest to them that it would be for their spiritual interest that they should hand over their endowments to him to be dealt with by the Parish and County Councils. I wonder what sort of an opinion that denomination would entertain of the friendship of the right hon. Gentleman. Let me now come to the question of disendowment. On that I think I may congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in not having followed the letter or in many cases the spirit of the advice of a certain well-known individual in North Wales— namely, Mr. Gee. Mr. Gee, who, I believe, is a personage not without considerable electoral influence, put out last year a very sweeping, a very audacious, and, in some respects, a very ridiculous proposal for the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church. The right hon. Gentleman is good enough to allow the parish churches to be handed over to the Church body, but he will not give over the cathedrals, although, perhaps, there is no part of England where more has been done for the cathedrals by the voluntary contributions of members of the Church than has been done in Wales. Has the right hon. Gentleman ever been at Llandaff or St. David's? Does he know that these buildings which he proposes to hand over to the new Welsh Commissioners he proposes to establish, and who will not, I should imagine, be a body very friendly to the members of the Church, have been almost completely rebuilt in this generation by the offerings of Churchmen? I know he proposes that the cathedrals should be permitted to be used for divine service by the new Church body. Is anybody else to be permitted to use them? Is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that that demand will not be made? If the cathedrals are to be preserved at the expense of these funds, which he calls national funds, as national monuments, and if that demand is made how is he prepared to meet it? Let me tell him how Mr. Gee would advise him to meet it. Mr. Gee has a very delightful little proposition on this matter. He proposes that the churches shall be transferred to the Parish Councils, that the use of them is to be granted to the new Church body, but that the parishioners shall be empowered to withhold them in case doctrines are taught or ceremonies introduced which they consider inconsistent with the Protestant character of the Church. The parishioners and the Parish Councils, if the proportions given by the right hon. Gentleman are correct, will be mainly, if not entirely, composed of those who do not believe in the teaching of the Church. And this is what is called in Wales religious liberty. That is the proposal actually made by those who support a society that has been founded for the liberation of religion from State patronage and control. Well, Sir, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman that, although he has been obliged to borrow from Mr. Gee to some extent with regard to the cathedrals, he has not gone so far as his teacher with regard to the parish churches. Then I come to the advowsons. I have no very great opinion of a person who would sell an advowson and put the proceeds into his own pocket. But I will say this. Advowsons have always been recognised in this country as property. The right hon. Gentleman both last year and this year recognised advowsons as property, and to tell a person that you will take his property away and give him in return at some distant date one year's purchase of that property is very like confiscation. But I will go to a more important matter. This Bill differs from the Irish Church Bill in one very important respect. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, the Irish Church Act had a great and, as I think, proper and just regard to the position in which the disestablished and disendowed Church would be left by the Act coming into operation. It did its best to provide, so far as could be done with full recognition of the principle of disestablishment and disendowment, that the services of the Church might be carried on, no doubt at great sacrifices on the part of those who were interested, after the process of disestablishment and disendowment had taken place, and therefore it provided for a scheme of commutation of life interests coupled with a bonus of 12 per cent. where three-fourths of the whole clergy in any diocese were willing to commute, which enabled the new Church body in Ireland, by the voluntary sacrifices of her Bishops and clergy, to raise funds for her future maintenance without trespassing upon the principle established by the Act of Parliament. Now, the right hon. Gentleman proposes nothing whatever of this kind by his Bill. That is a blot in the Bill which is a gross inequity as against the Church in Wales. By the right hon. Gentleman's own contention, —for he pointed out that the revenue of the Church after all is only £280,000 a year—the Church in Wales is a poor Church. He knows perfectly well that in the agricultural districts of Wales the Church is a poor Church, and that in the large towns the growing populations made it difficult for her to keep up with the demands upon her, and yet he will not take the precedent ready to his hand, and enable her, by a fair and just proposal, to secure the continuance of her services and provide for her future needs. But what about the curates? Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that his proposal with regard to curates is quite fair? Suppose an unfortunate young man, who has spent considerable money in his education for the Church, is curate to an old rector, and suppose the old rector dies before the day arrives which the right hon. Gentleman fixes as the commencement of this Act, what is the position of the curate? He gets no compensation at all, and although I do not want to dwell on this matter now, yet I must say, while quite admitting that there were abuses in this matter in connection with the administration of the Irish Act, against which the right hon. Gentleman would have done well to guard, yet I do not think he has gone far enough to give, I will not say generous, but just treatment to the curates in Wales who have entered the service of the Church. In the question of glebes, I think the Home Secretary has followed Mr. Gee.

* : I cannot help thinking that some of the right hon. Gentleman's advisers must have been cunningly insinuating into his mind some of Mr. Gee's ideas. But I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman to take the opportunity of stating whether, in making over, as I admit he does most fairly and justly, to the new Church body the parsonages he also intends to couple with these parsonages the gardens and curtilages, which are necessary, of course, to the enjoyment of the actual residence.

I am very glad to hear it. Now I come to the very important question of the way in which these funds, when the right hon. Gentleman has got hold of them, are to be dealt with. He was rather hard, I think, upon the precedent of the Irish Act. He said the funds of the Irish Church had been wasted and squandered. He suggested that there had been, on the part no doubt of the Government on both sides, a continued species of Parliamentary bribery. ["No, no."] Well, "wasting "and" squandering " are very strong words, and those words, at any rate, the right hon. Gentleman used. Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that the funds which he considers to have been wasted and squandered by Parliament in Ireland are considered to have been wasted and squandered by those who represent Ireland in this House? I am quite sure that there is not one of the matters to which the Church funds in Ireland have been devoted which the Irish Members have not at the time accepted with practical unanimity as a benefit to Ireland. What I have heard with regard to these funds from Irish Members is this—that the existence of this Irish Church Fund has on more than one occasion, perhaps on many occasions, relieved Parliament of the necessity of imposing upon Imperial taxation that which in all fairness to Ireland ought to have been paid for by the Imperial Exchequer. Now, the right hon. Gentleman proposes to hand over the tithe to Parish and County Councils. Does he think they will waste and squander these funds less than Parliament has done in the case of Ireland? Does he think that they will always be incorruptly administered in a spirit free from Party or religious bias and with a sole view to the common good of the whole of the Welsh people? Nay, further, to what purpose are they to be devoted? The right hon. Gentleman gave us a list. He told us they were to be devoted to parish rooms, libraries, labourers' dwellings, and allotments. But every one of these matters has been now provided for by Act of Parliament as expenditure which might properly be imposed by the Local Authorities on the ratepayers. He proposes, in regard to the central fund, that it should be devoted to technical and higher education. That, again, is a matter to which Parliament has made considerable contributions in the past, and is likely to make even greater contributions in the future. What his proposition really amounts to is that the funds of the Church in Wales are to be devoted to relieving the ratepayers on the one side and the taxpayers on the other. So far as relief to the ratepayers is concerned, we have argued continually that those who now pay rates are unfairly burdened by the present system, under which local taxation is really charged on one kind of property only. But the reply to that has always been, especially from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "Why, you are asking relief for the landlords." Does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that it would not be wasting and squandering the Church funds to use them to relieve the rates from burdens which must eventually come—although, in the first instance, they will be paid by the ratepayers—upon the owners of real property in the country and in the towns? I am quite sure of this—that if he were to put it to the owners of real property in Wales whether they would desire that their Church should be robbed in order that its funds might be devoted to their relief, the right hon. Gentleman would receive a very emphatic reply in the negative. I maintain that this proposal to devote the Church property to what, I suppose, the Government consider to be a more useful and a more valuable purpose than that to which it is at present applied is a mere waste and squandering of funds which ought to be applied to the purposes to which they are at present devoted, which you have no right to take away, and which you admit are used to the great advantage of the country. These funds of the Church, whether looked upon as national property, or, as I look upon them, as property which the Church holds in trust for the performance of its duties, are in either case a portion, and a not very large portion, of the wealth of the country saved from the grasp of individual selfishness and devoted to public ends. The effect of the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman will be, through a system of jobbery and favouritism, to give them back again for the benefit of individuals. I thank the House for having borne with me so long. I will only say, in conclusion, that I can conceive no stronger condemnation of this proposal to mutilate the National Church of our country—a Church that has borne a most glorious part in our history for generations—and to deprive it of the funds necessary for its work in those populous towns and in those widely-spread country districts where no other existing religious organisation can replace it, than the fact that the Government can find nothing better to do with those funds than to devote them to such purposes as those which the right hon. Gentleman proposes.

said that, whatever difference of opinion there might be as to this Bill, there was one point on which all would be agreed—namely, that it was not very convenient to discuss at any length the details of a Bill one had not seen. Of course, the subject was a difficult one. It bristled with difficulties; but he had always thought that the business of statesmen was to overcome difficulties, and he had, he confessed, great confidence in the statesmanship of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. One thing was certain, that if the Bill had come down from Heaven it could not have been made satisfactory to the right hon. Baronet. He (Sir G. Osborne Morgan) would not for a moment contend that the Bill did not need amendment, but there would be many opportunities—too many, he feared —for proposing and discussing Amendments. The Bill appeared to him to be a just, a liberal—too liberal some might call it—and a statesmanlike measure. It was free from two great vices which disfigured the Irish Church Act—namely, the compounding clauses and the preposterous mode of compensating curates. Speaking for himself, he believed the proposals for the transfer of property to Local and Parochial Bodies, as well as for the ultimate application of the surplus, were such as would strongly commend themselves to the people of Wales. More than that he could not at present see his way to say; but if he might venture upon a little piece of advice to the friends of the Church in Wales, he would say that they would do wisely to think twice before they rejected the Bill, because it was possible that the Church might go further and fare worse. Having said that, he came to the speech of the right hon. Baronet. He knew the right hon. Baronet was thoroughly in earnest in this matter, and he had listened to his speech—as he always did—with the greatest interest and attention, but he could not help thinking that the right hon. Baronet had been labouring under a great disadvantage. The right hon. Baronet appeared to have got his facts at second-hand, and those who spent their lives in Wales knew how easy it was for gentlemen who did not understand a word of the Welsh language to pay a flying visit to some fashionable watering-place in the Principality, and collect a parcel of facts on the one side and gossip on the other, and out of all this to build up a mass of half-truths which were really more misleading than positive falsehoods. The right hon. Baronet spoke of the activity the Church of Wales had dis- played, and it was true that it had shown great activity. It had made great progress, it had collected large sums of money, and spent a great deal in building churches and parsonages. All credit to it for that; but, after all, it was not to be wondered at, for although the Church in Wales did not represent more than a fourth of the population, it certainly possessed three-fourths of its wealth. But he thought that when they came to a future stage of the Bill he should be able to show that what the Church in Wales had given out of its abundance to the support of religion was as nothing to what the Nonconformists had given out of their comparative penury. The right hon. Baronet had forgotten one fact—namely, that the zeal and activity of the Church in Wales had chiefly shown itself in what, for the want of a better phrase, he would call a brick and mortar progress. ["Oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen might cry "Oh!" but he would give them the opinion of a distinguished Churchman on this matter. At a Church Congress in South Wales the late Dean of Bangor had said—

"The Church has made material progress of late; churches, parsonages, and schools have been built. But how many of the churches are empty?"

Those words were used some years ago, but they were equally true to-day. On every possible occasion when this subject had been debated a good deal had been said about the parish of Brymbo— though why that should be selected, except as a delicate compliment to himself, he did not know. It was not a typical Welsh place at all, and it had a very large English colony residing in it. It was a great industrial centre, and the principal employer of labour was a fanatical Churchman. The Vicar of the parish had collected considerable funds— sufficient to enable him to build one church and to re-build another. No doubt he had collected a good deal of money from his parishioners, but in addition to that he had sent round an appeal to people outside—to nearly every Member of Parliament, for instance—declaring that this parish was the one black spot in Wales. The Vicar stated that there was only one parish church in the place, omitting to mention that there were nine or ten Nonconformist chapels. In this way a considerable sum of money had been collected, and one church had been built and another re-built. But what had been the result? Why, that the parish church which he attended regularly was never more than three-parts full, while every Sunday teeming congregations might be seen flowing out of the Nonconformist chapels. He was here reminded of some lines with which, no doubt, his Scotch friends would be familiar—

"The wee kirk, the free kirk, The kirk without the steeple, The auld kirk, the cauld kirk, The kirk without the people."

The right hon. Baronet, when he spoke of the progress of the Welsh Church, forgot to state one most important fact. The places in which the Church had made most progress had been exactly those in which, to all intents and purposes, it was an unendowed Church— where, in fact, she had to do what of course she would have to do in every case if the Bill passed—that was to say, rely upon the voluntary efforts of her members. The House might take it that in Wales the progress of the Church was in exact inverse proportion to the assistance which she received from the State. Where she depended upon voluntary effort she was making progress; where, on the contrary, she had to depend upon tithes and endowments, she was going backwards. Was not that the strongest possible argument for the Bill? Besides that, he would say that the progress which the Church had made was absolutely nothing to the progress which had taken place in what he might call the demand for disestablishment. He did not hesitate to say that for one person who 20 years ago was an advocate of disestablishment in Wales there were at least 100 now. When, 24 years ago, Mr. Watkin Williams brought this question before the House, seven Welsh Members voted for disestablishment and 13 against it. Instead of the opponents of disestablishment being two to one, they were now only two to 28, and if they took Monmouthshire, they were three to 31. It was easy to say that if a certain number of voters had voted the other way the proportion would have been much decreased. As a matter of fact, if only 100, or to speak more correctly, only 109—Conservative voters had "voted the other way," there would not have been one single Welsh Representative of the Church Defence Party in the House of Commons. He would appeal to the Liberal Unionists to hear what the Duke of Devonshire had said on this question of disestablishment. Speaking of the Church of Scotland, he said he thought the question whether the Establishment in Scotland should be maintained or not was a question which must be decided by the votes of the Representatives of the people of Scotland. Taking that Hartingtonian test, he thought the case of Wales was much stronger than the case of Scotland or Ireland was—not that he was opposed to the disestablishment of the Church in Scotland; he would vote for its disestablishment to-morrow just as 25 years ago he voted for the disestablishment of the Irish Church. But if they compared the proportion of Members of the two countries, they would find that the proportion of Welsh Members who were in favour of disestablishment was infinitely greater than the proportion of Scotch Members in favour of Scotch disestablishment; greater than the proportion of Irish Members who voted for the disestablishment of the Irish Church; and it was even greater than the proportion of Irish Members who were now in favour of Home Rule. Now, he asked himself what had produced this extraordinary change of opinion? Hon. Members opposite would say it was the result of political agitation.

said, he was going to state that such an assertion was nonsense; yet he did not want to say anything offensive to the hon. and learned Member, yet it did seem a superficial way of looking at the matter. Did the hon. and learned Member believe that any amount of agitation, political or otherwise, could turn a majority of two to one into a minority of two to 28? The explanation of the change which had taken place in public opinion in Wales was, that the matter had been discussed over and over again; that the people had been educated, and that three points had clearly come out. Those three points were: That the Church in Wales was the church of the minority; that the Church in Wales was the church of the rich; and that the Church in Wales was the church of the stranger. Those three propositions he was prepared to maintain against all-comers. As to the first point, he really did not think that anybody seriously supposed that the Church in Wales was the church of the majority. He had heard of people who contended that the members of the Church were more numerous than the members of any denomination taken singly; but he never heard of anybody seriously arguing that the number of members of the Church was really more than the numbers of all the different denominations put together. Two authorities, indeed, had attempted to show that there was actually a majority for the Church in Wales, but they arrived at this conclusion in rather peculiar ways. A right rev. Prelate, who seemed to be tormented by a cacoethes scribendi, and would probably to-morrow pour out his soul over as many columns of The Times newpaper as the editor could afford to give him, had alleged that the Church had a majority in Wales, but he had arrived at the conclusion by a singular method. He had gone to the statistics of three leading Nonconformist Bodies, and having ascertained the number of enrolled or registered members to be 800,000 or 900,000, or 48 per cent. of the population, he jumped to the conclusion that the other 52 per cent. were all Churchmen. The right rev. Prelate might as well have gone to the headquarters of the Blue Ribbon Army, and, having ascertained that a certain number of members were enrolled as wearers of the blue ribbon, have put down every other man, woman, and child in the United Kingdom, including the late Attorney General, who was, he believed, a total abstainer, and the hon. Baronet the Member for Cocker-mouth, as habitual drunkards. Then the hon. Member for Oswestry arrived at a similar result by a different process. He went to the St. Asaph Workhouse, and ascertained that of the 134 pauper inmates there, 96 were Churchpeople, 13 Calvinist Methodists, 9 Baptists, 6 Independents, 5 Wesleyans, and 5 Roman Catholics—in all, 38. Having discovered that in the workhouse the people were as 96 to 38, or about 3 to 1, he treated it as a microcosm of the whole Principality, and came to the conclusion that the proportion of Churchmen was the same outside. A clergyman—an Englishman who had spent a large part of his life in inspecting schools in Wales, the Rev. Robert Temple — writing a short time ago, said—

"Now, there cannot, I think, be the least doubt that the Church of England is in Wales greatly outnumbered by the Nonconformists. One of the strongest opponents of disestablishment is reported to hare said lately that the difference was three to one, and my long acquaintance with the Principality and my observation of elections of all kinds, and most especially of School Board elections, lead me to the same conclusion. Montgomeryshire, where I inspected schools from October, 1868, to March, 1893, is by no means an extremely Nonconformist country, and its boroughs return a Conservative Member; but even there the Nonconformists have a majority on every existing School Board, and if School Boards were made universal I do not believe there would be a Church majority in five parishes, at the outside, out of 50."

In the face of such facts, and with the testimony of one's senses, how could anything be gained by a religious census? They might as well say that a man could not tell whether he was hot or cold without looking at a thermometer. They objected in 1890 to the religious census because all the "absenters" would be put down as Church members, and they knew that every gaunt Primrose dame would go to every poor dependent over whom she had influence with a census paper in one hand and a notice to quit in the other. ["Oh!"] " He jests at scars who never felt a wound," but they knew how much petty persecution of that kind went on in Wales. But the Church in Wales was not only the Church of the few, but the Church of those who, presumably, were best able to pay for their own worship. They all knew Sydney Smith's dictum about carriage-horses driving to church. In Wales it was said that they could tell whether a man was a Churchman or Nonconformist by the hour at which he dined and the number of servants he kept. Over and over again he had been at a church attended solely by the squire, his family, and his dependants, and he meant by that those people who waited upon providence and hoped to gain something by being members of the Church. When he thought of the prizes which the Church of England offered in bishoprics, deaneries, canonries, and livings, aggregating something like £270,000 a year, and how until lately the whole disposition of local charities was in the hands of the parson, he was literally amazed that so many Nonconformists had remained true to the faith of their fathers. Let them recollect the wise saying of Mr. Lecky—"A richly-endowed Church may make many converts, but it makes more hypocrites." A great deal had been said of the origin of the ancient British Church as compared with the English Church. Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams recently delivered a most erudite and able and interesting lecture, in which he showed that the old British Church had been altogether distinct in its origin, ritual, and constitution from the Anglican introduced from Rome by St. Augustine. That, no doubt, from an academical point of view, was an exceedingly interesting question, but he could not help thinking that what they, as practical legislators, wanted to consider was, not the relation of the Welsh Church or the British Church to the English Church, in the 7th or 13th century, but the relation of the English Church to the Welsh people in the 19th century. Looked at from that point of view, he said deliberately that the Church in Wales was an alien Church. The Church of England, with its stereotyped ritual and hierarchical constitution, was utterly unsuited to the genius of the Welsh people. In one word, it was too cold for an emotional people, too aristocratic and Bishop-ridden for a democratic people. Professor Goldwin Smith had said that the Celtic peasant might be a fervent Catholic, as he was in Brittany and Ireland; a fervent Presbyterian, as he was in the Highlands; a fervent Methodist, as he was in Wales; but a staid and decorous Anglican never. In England, as the Archbishop of Canterbury had said, the mission of the Church had been to guide and quicken national life. Would anybody say that of the Church in Wales? So far from arousing national life, the tendency of the Church in Wales had been to deaden national life. If there had been one thoroughly national movement in Wales, it had been the movement in favour of higher and intermediate education. In almost every county in Wales Schemes had been elaborated to carry out the provisions of the Act for intermediate education. Those Schemes had been most carefully considered and adopted; but what had been the attitude of the Bishops and clergy towards the Schemes? Look at the records in the House of Lords. In five cases Motions had been made, always by a Bishop, to set either the whole or a vital part of the Schemes aside. In three cases, he was sorry to say, those Motions. had been successful; in two, thank God! they had failed. He was not going into the merits of these Motions; but this he did say, and he could quote the Prime Minister in his support—that they showed a deliberate attempt to go counter to the express wishes of the people. The result of that had been that in Wales the cause of disestablishment had become the cause of nationality. They all remembered that about a year ago a very remarkable meeting was called to protest against the Suspensory Bill at the Albert Hall. It was attended by 19 Bishops, 34 Peers, and a perfect army of rejected Parliamentary candidates. It was said at the time—and he believed with truth—that so many defeated candidates had never been gathered together under the same roof. But where were the Representatives of Wales? Was there a single Welsh Member present? Was there even a single chairman of a Welsh County Council? No; and, so far as he could gather from the speeches made at that meeting, which were very able and eloquent, not a single man showed that he cared one red cent about the wants or the wishes of the Welsh people. They were as much ignored as if they had been Zulus or Hottentots. That roused indignation down in Wales, even among the rank-and-file of the Welsh clergy. But what could they do? Their promotion depended on the Bishops. In one diocese it was an understood thing that men were promoted to offices of trust and profit, not for preaching the Gospel, but for fighting Dissent. If a, clergyman could only show that he had from his pulpit denounced Dissent as the greatest of national sins, or, failing that, if he could show that he had written an insolent letter to a Welsh Member, he was sure of promotion. He (Sir G. Osborne Morgan) had listened to sermons which made him doubt if he lived in a Christian country, but he would not quote from sermons or from speeches. He preferred written or printed testimony, like the late Mr. Mereweather, who used to say that he believed in a future state of punishment, because in this world men were not made accountable for what they said, but only for what they wrote. The Quarterly Review was an accredited organ of the Church Party. It was supposed to be written by gentlemen and scholars. He wished he could say that of the article on The Church in Wales, from which he was going to quote. If the writer had been referring to the very lowest and most degraded type he could not have spoken in more offensive terms than he did about the leading Welsh Nonconformists. Of these men—men of the purest and most holy lives, whose friendship he (Sir G. Osborne Morgan) valued—the writer said that their daily lives commanded no respect. Then he went on to speak of " a hideous travesty of Christian life," and of the interest which Welsh congregations took in Church matters as the "interference of uneducated vulgarity in spiritual matters." Uneducated vulgarity was bad enough, but what was ten times worse was educated vulgarity, and for genuine vulgarity, for downright snobbishness, he would commend them to the author of this article. The writer also said, what was probably true, that the newspapers of Wales were almost entirely in the hands of Nonconformists. Why was that? Simply because the people who read them were Nonconformists. He believed that out of 17 papers printed in the vernacular, only two were carried on by Churchmen, and they were kept alive partly by large subsidies and partly by abuse of his hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. The writer also declared that the old spirit of law and order was almost entirely disappearing, and "irreligious and lawlessness " had taken their place. Irreligious and lawlessness! By their fruits they would know them. Surely the author of this egregious nonsense knew perfectly well that the people of whom he was speaking were people in whose country the places of worship and Sunday schools were always full, and the gaols were almost always empty, and whose amusements were the purest and the most elevating in the whole world. The proportion of crime to the population in Wales was about half what it was in England, and at the last Assizes it took four or five counties to make two prisoners. A Judge recently complained to him that he had to travel 50 miles in North Wales to try one prisoner, and she was an Englishwoman. It was often said that if the Church were disestablished, religion would be utterly crushed in Wales; and that if she were not maintained by tithes and endowments, she could not be maintained at all. All he could say was that if the Church could only be maintained by such means, the sooner she ceased to be maintained the better. It was an extraordinary thing that those who used that argument did not see what a handle they were putting in the hands not only of the enemies of all forms of religious establishments, but the enemies of all religion whatever. He would quote as his last extract a passage from Herbert Spencer, who asked

"Is Christianity, after so many centuries, so little rooted in men's hearts that but for the Government watering-pots it would wither away?"

The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that the Welsh dioceses were dioceses of the province of Canterbury, and that if they disestablished the Welsh Church, they were bound to go on and disestablish the English Church. If so, so much the worse for the Established Church of England. But there was nothing more absurd than to say that Wales was not entitled to be treated as a separate nationality, when Parliament had over and over again—Parliament, led even by the Government of which the right hon. Baronet was a Member—had acknowledged their right to be dealt with as a separate nationality. Nothing would be more unjust or absurd than to say that they in Wales who were ripe for disestablishment ought to wait till they in England who were not ripe were ready for it. But he did not think that that argument of the right hon. Gentleman was likely to make much impression on the Liberal Members. They had come, rightly or wrongly, to the conclusion that the question of disestablishment, even in England, was only a question of time. How could it be otherwise? If there was anything certain, it was that the whole tendency of the age was toward perfect freedom of opinion in religion, and it was absurd to speak of religious freedom when one set of religious opinion was hedged round by artificial reverence and exalted and protected at the expense of the rest. Look back on the last 60 years; the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, Catholic Emancipation, the admission of Jews to Parliament, Church rate abolition, Burial Law reform, the admission of Nonconformists to the Universities—all those measures were hotly resisted, but they had all been carried; and what were they but so many stages which marked the progress they were making towards perfect religious freedom, and they could not have perfect religious freedom without perfect religious equality. He would only say, in conclusion, that he had too much confidence in the sense of justice which distinguished Englishmen to believe that, when all these facts were laid before them, they would any longer turn a deaf ear to the all but unanimous demand of the Representatives of a people who, despite their poverty, despite their discouragement, despite the frowns of the wealthy and the sneers of the educated, had managed to make for their own spiritual needs a provision which might put to shame the richest and the proudest Church Establishment in the world.

* said, that those who had taken the trouble of studying the Debates which for a long series of years had taken place in the House of Commons in regard to Disestablishment must have been much astonished at the two modern or new arguments which had been put forward by the present Government. Those two arguments were first heard in the speech made by the Home Secretary last Session, and they had been repeated to-day. First of all, the Home Secretary said that the proposed disestablishment and disendowment of the Church in Wales was for the good of the Church in Wales, and, secondly, he said that the Irish case was an exact precedent for disendowment. If it were the fact that disestablishment and disendowment would strengthen the Church, was it not passing strange that the great Radical Party, the amenders of abuses and righters of wrongs which they posed as being, had taken so long a time to find out that by disestablishing and disendowing the Church they were playing the part of her best friends? At the beginning of the century it was said that the abuses of nepotism and absenteeism were in existence in the Church in Wales. Was not that, then, the time for the great Radical Party to come forward and generously offer to hold out its helping-hand to the Church? But nowadays, when all men knew, and all men who were honest would admit that the Church in Wales was doing its best, was full of vigour and vitality, and was honestly working side by side with its Nonconformist brethren, in peace and with benefit to those who received the administrations of both, how odd it was, how strange that at such a time the Government, for the first time as a Government, should step forward and seek to disestablish and disendow that Church. It strained the imagination to think that those who put forward such an argument could be really serious. But it did not stop there; they had another excuse, which was that they were impelled to do that which they were seeking to do in obedience to the mandate of national sentiment. National sentiment might be a good dictator; he could understand a mandate of national sentiment which, for the benefit of our country and fatherland, would be a dictator which they would be bound to obey, but he could also conceive a national sentiment, so-called, that it would be unwise to listen to. Of what stuff was this national sentiment made: was it a national sentiment found in Ireland or Scotland? Let them take Ireland. He would like to know how many of the ordinary Irish voters ever heard about the Protestant Church in Wales at all in their lives; how many times they had been addressed from the pulpit or by candidates who asked for their support to help disestablish the Church in Wales? There was no such national sentiment in Ireland, and he ventured to say, though here he was not on such strong ground, it was very uncertain whether there was any such national sentiment in Scotland. In England the Government knew too well how the matter stood. If there was, therefore, a national sentiment it was amongst the Welsh people only; and was that, he asked, a sentiment springing from an objection on principle to the religious principle?

said, very well, if it was, all he could say was that he could quote a very strong authority to show that the affirmation given by the hon. Member below the Gangway was not correct. He would take the words of a man who, he believed, knew more about the history of the Church in Wales than any other Member of this House—he meant the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone). When he heard Mr. Watkin Williams say in this House in 1870 that the Scriptures declared against the principle of National Establishment, what did the right hon. Gentleman say? He said—

"If my hon. Friend will permit me to say so without intending him any disrespect, I must say he has, in my opinion, entirely failed to prove that such is the ease. Sufficient proof of what I say is to be found in this—that although it is true that Welsh Nonconformity had taken root and become a national sentiment in the country more than half a century ago, he would have found it difficult, if not impossible, to discover the slightest trace of controversy with regard to disestablishment. It has not been a question with regard to national establishment of religion. That has nothing to do with the growth of Welsh dissent."

He preferred that statement of the right hon. Gentleman to the assertion he heard just now from the hon. Member below the Gangway.

Yes; and he was obliged for the interruption. If the principle laid down by the right hon. Gentleman was good then, it was good now. The Home Secretary did not pretend that there was any good cause for asserting there were any such abuses in the Church in Wales now as existed in the early part of the century; therefore, if the only cause for objection to the Establishment was by reason of the shortcomings that were said to exist then, how about 1894, when they knew they had disappeared, and that the Church was working with the utmost of its ability to do that which was right and proper? ["No, no!"] The hon. Member might say " No, no!" but he challenged him to get up afterwards and draw attention to a single circumstance that justified his saying the Church was not doing its duty in the Principality of Wales at the present moment. Therefore, he was justified in saying that objection on principle to the establishment of a National Establishment was not a good one, and they must look further for a valid objection to support those who were desirous of disestablish- ing and disendowing. He wondered if it had anything to do with money? What did Mr. Watkin Williams, who was one of their best and foremost of their speakers, say on this subject? He said that if he could not procure the disendowment of the Church, he would prefer to see her unmolested; in other words, he did not care about her being disestablished unless he could get her disendowed; if he could do that, and could get his hands on the money, he would do his best to disestablish the Church. If that was a principle of which anyone was proud, all he could say was that he begged to differ. Then, might he quote the language of a statesman of long ago, but who was once a Leader of the Whig Party, and who spoke in the presence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian, who supported him afterwards—he meant the opinion of the late Lord Palmerston with regard to the Irish Church? It was in the year 1856, and it was then thought that a Resolution was an easy way of getting an opinion, without much coming of it, as to the disestablishment of the Irish Church. During the Debate Lord Palmerston said—

"I, for one. am decidedly of opinion that a Church establishment is a proper part of the organisation of a civilised country. Entertaining a deep, a settled, and a rooted conviction that a Church establishment is essential in every country in which it is thought desirable that religion should be diffused and inculcated on the minds of the population, being perfectly determined never to agree to the substitution of the voluntary system for that of an establishment, I feel compelled to vote against the proposition."

Then in the necessities of the case they must find some precedent for disendowment. The Home Secretary was equal to the occasion, for he had said time after time that the disendowment of the Irish Church was an exact precedent for the disendowment of the Church in Wales. Well, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian did not agree with him, for he had said time after time in this House there was a great difference between the two. On the 24th of May, 1870, the right hon. Gentleman said—

"The case of the Welsh Church is certainly widely different to that of the Irish Church."

Now they got to an odd state of things. Those who chose to study the question would find in the speeches of those who proposed the disestablishment of the Irish Church in 1868, when the question first arose, that they told the English and Scotch people that they need not be afraid that the English Church or the Established Church in England would suffer, because there was a great difference between the English and the Irish Church; but when they wanted a precedent and the Irish Church had been disestablished, it was easy enough to say the two were alike, and the Irish Church was, they said, an exact precedent for what they desired to do. Let him ask again on what principle they were going to disendow this Church? Could it be asserted by any honest man that the funds of the Church were being misused to-day; could it be asserted by any honest man that these endowments when given were not properly given, were not properly bestowed for a particular object; and was it any reason to say, in support of their argument for disendowment to-day, that in the early part of the century, in days long gone by—thank God for it!—those endowments were not always administered in the best possible manner? The abuses, if they existed, had gone; and if the abuse had disappeared and the endowments were being properly administered, was it not ridiculous, absurd, and dishonest to say that because the property was national therefore the property was to be taken away and divided amongst all parties? He hoped he should not be using too strong language in expressing the opinion that, though it might be Constitutional for the House to take the property away—and anything Parliament did was Constitutional—it was immoral. He ventured to say, further, that if this property was taken away for no better reason than those which had already been given, it would cause some people outside this House to say that the House had disgraced itself. There was another point he would like to put, and that was that if it was for the good of the Church that the Church be disestablished and disendowed, why take three bites, as it was called, at a cherry; why not disendow the lot together; why not offer the same high-handed generosity to the Church in Scotland and the Church in England? If it was for their good, it was for their good in England and Scotland; and if it was good for the Church in England and the Church in Scotland to be disendowed, why hesitate at all? Why, because they did not dare try it. That logically they ought to do it was perfectly clear from a statement made by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said on the 9th of March, 1886—

"The Church in Wales is so much an integral part of the Church of England that it is not only difficult but impossible to raise the question without disendowing the other; if you raise the question of the Church in Wales you raise the whole question."

And yet they were quite prepared to try to do it, even though they thought that by doing so they were conferring a benefit and a blessing on the Church that they were going to split. He had discovered a prophecy in the pages of Hansard which might throw some little light on the reason for the proceedings in this House to-day. A Member who was not known to him, but who might be known to some hon. Members, Dr. Ball, used in this House on the 9th of May, 1871, these remarkable words. Dr. Ball said—

"For the present the Church is safe; the Church will be defended so long as its defence does not imperil the existence of the Administration, but it will be abandoned as soon as ever their existence is at stake upon this question."

Was it quite certain that the present Administration would ever have come into existence if it had not pledged itself to bring forward this question; was it quite certain that the present Administration, tottering as some thought, would have been able to linger on even as it was if it had not brought forward this question? In this he thought they had the fulfilment of Dr. Ball's prophecy. The Administration was in danger, and they knew that if they did not bring forward this question they would not exist, or, existing, they would not long continue. National sentiment had been talked of as the mandate which compelled the Government to bring forward this Motion. Should nothing be said of another sentiment which they claimed to have; was no attention to be paid, no respect whatever paid to that feeling which they all had for the Church they were born in and brought up in? They might succeed in dragging her down from her traditional platform; they might succeed in making her compete for her very existence in the market-place of indi- vidualism; they might even succeed in seeing her humiliated, and perhaps for a time impoverished, and then when all the damage was done, and could not be remedied, the reflection might come to some of them that they had done a great wrong, and injured a Church that was doing a good work. They would resist them to the best of their power, because they believed and knew that their Church was the Church of moderation and liberty. To borrow a figure that had been used, they saw in this that the Government were doing not only the burning of their neighbour's house, but their own party walls in flames, as they believed that it was untrue, as stated by the Home Secretary to-day, that her existence was a constant source of bitterness and animosity. If that existed, it was not caused by the Church. He did not believe it existed to any extent; he believed if they threshed the matter out they would find politics to be at the bottom of it, and jealousy of the endowments of the Church. He did not believe that this bitterness and animosity was found apart from politics. He hoped he had not spoken too warmly, but they were accused of being weak-kneed supporters of the Church, and he knew that to be untrue, and, for his part, he would not only resist the Bill, but if he had his way he would even divide the House upon the First Reading of it. To his Roman Catholic friends and to his Nonconformist friends, who had the same sentiment and the same love for their Churches as Churchmen of the Established Church, he said that to bring about this disestablishment, disendowment, and humiliation of the Church was neither just nor generous.

* said, that though he was not a Welshman nor a Welsh Representative, he had lived a substantial portion of nearly every year of his life in Wales, and had had occasion to take some part in political matters in the Principality, and he said without doubt and without hesitation that the Welsh people had made up their minds that it was fully time that they saw an end of the establishment of the English Church in Wales. This was at the last Election, and for some Elections before, the one important and most burning topic in Wales. It had been stated that it was not before the English constituencies; but he could only say, at any rate in the constituency he had the honour to represent, he referred to the question again and again, and there was no doubt at all what the views of his constituency were. The Welsh people had decided that the English Church did not suit them, and they had provided chapels for themselves, which they supported with a generosity and enthusiasm hardly equalled and never excelled in any part of the world. When they returned nine-tenths of their Representatives pledged to demand that the establishment of the English Church in Wales should cease they, at any rate, who believed in government by the people were bound to pay some attention to that demand. It had been stated that, although there was a vast majority of Welsh Representatives who were in favour of this measure, there were not so large a proportion of Welsh people; but he had never yet heard anyone who had the hardihood to state that the majority of the Welsh people were opposed to disestablishment. He had frequently attended the English churches in Wales. On one occasion he attended where the service was in Welsh, and there were exactly 19 people in the church, counting everybody. He subsequently attended the English service, and he counted over 190 people, and anyone who attended that church and waited outside the chapel doors would see that the Welsh people did not go to the church, but went to the chapels. The people of Wales had decided that they did not believe in a religion which was subject to State patronage and control. They believed they could manage their own affairs better for themselves than others could manage them for them, and he believed the instincts of the Welsh people as regarded this matter were absolutely right. They were told that the case of Wales was not parallel with the case of Ireland. It was not contended, however, that Irish disestablishment had been a failure, and much as disestablishment was wanted in Ireland, when it was enacted it was wanted far more in Wales to-day. The establishment of the English Church in Wales was a grievance to the Welsh people; it was a thing which rankled in their minds as an injustice and as an alien institution; it was the cause of animosity and bitterness and, he would almost say, of class hatred which it must be the duty of every Legislature to try and put to a just end. He appealed to the House most earnestly, because he thoroughly believed in the justice of the claim of the Welsh people, to pass the First Reading of this Bill, so that they might discuss the details hereafter. He heartily hoped that this great desire of the Welsh people would not be denied to them, and that they would be allowed to see that the Parliament of this country did, at any rate, pay some attention to their wishes, which were almost unanimously expressed through their constitutionally-elected Representatives, who were, in many cases, elected almost entirely with a view to this subject. He thought, therefore, the least they could do was to give consideration to this Bill, and see if they could not meet the wishes of the vast majority of the Welsh people, and then he believed they should have done far more than they could do by any one single other measure to convince them that they were willing to govern them upon principles of equity, of justice, and of right.

said, they were told by the right hon. Baronet, who especially represented Welsh opinion in this matter, that there was a great feeling of bitterness on the part of the Church in Wales towards the Nonconformist Body there, and certainly that feeling in some way or other seemed to have influenced a good deal of the Debate they had heard that night. It might, therefore, be useful if he asked the House to consider this question from another point of view—namely, that of Lancashire Conservatism and Churchmanship, where such a feeling as this was quite unknown. They in Lancashire were always ready to appreciate at its highest the good work done by Nonconformist Bodies, and to give them every sort of social and political equality consistent with the existence of the Established Church and the national profession of religion, and they believed that in promoting this harmony and good feeling they were defending by the best means the Church, which was nowhere more popular than in that county. From their point of view, however, they were astonished to find the question of the disestablishment of the Church in Wales treated in this way, because they looked at it from a practical point of view, and asked what good result of a religious, moral, or other kind was to come from this Bill? The right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Osborne Morgan) said that even if a disestablishment Bill were to come from Heaven they (the Opposition) should oppose it. He thought they would wait until that happened. At present they had a strong feeling that that was hardly the source from which Bills which attacked the Church emanated. There were two separate questions involved in a Bill of this kind, and the principal one was that of disendowment. A great deal had been said about the Church being in a minority, and about the numbers of the Church. The right hon. Baronet seemed to think that numbers had a great deal to do with this matter, but in reality as regarded disendowment numbers had nothing to do with it. Assuming for a moment that the Church in Wales was the Church of even a minority of the Welsh people, how could they deal with its endowments? They asked the House to consider and deal with the property in possession of the Church as it would deal with property in possession of other Religious Bodies, or charities, whether educational, eleemosynary, or religious. What the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Charity Trustees would inquire into was whether the property, properly administered, was in excess of the wants of the body that held it, so as to constitute an abuse, and if it were found that that was not so there would be no case made out in any shape or form for attacking the property so held. It might be said that tithes were not property. Undoubtedly, if tithes could be said to be a tax there might be something in the argument derived from numbers, because a tax could only be imposed on everybody when it was for the benefit of the entire community, but the whole foundation of the case in Ireland and of the Bill of that day was that tithe was property like any other property. It had been enjoyed by the Church for several centuries at least, and one inquired what abuse there was in that enjoyment? But the case which could not be contradicted was this: that so far from the property of the Church in Wales being in excess of its requirements it was not enough; that it was a poor Church which had about £279,000 a year which was actually insufficient, the best proof of this being that the voluntary contributions made in aid of that Church were in excess of its income. So that if they went upon the every-day grounds upon which this House received every scheme of charities of all kinds, they were not entitled to touch the property of any Church or institution, whether it had 500,000 people, 40,000, or only 10,000, when they found it was not in excess of its requirements, and that it was well and ably administered. Members opposite attacked the property of a vigorous Church, which was making conversions and great progress, and asked that they should take away its property on grounds which would not apply to Spurgeon's Tabernacle or any other property held by the Nonconformist community. It was upon the ground—without stopping to argue as to the rights of Parliament to interfere with charities or endowments of all kinds where they amounted to an abuse— that there was no abuse at all; that the property was honourably held and properly administered; that they said, whether the numbers be small or great, that no case had been made for touching these endowments. As regarded disestablishment, hon. Members sometimes spoke as if disestablishment was in itself something which would oppress the Nonconformist Body. But even the right hon. Baronet himself had shown that during the last 100 years the English people had done all they could to remove from the Establishment anything which interfered with the social and equal rights of other bodies, and if anything remained which a Nonconformist was entitled to say was a grievance, he was sure no one would be more ready to remove it than the great bulk of English Churchmen. There were some small matters, such as Marriage Laws, which required amendment; but when hon. Members talked of the Establishment in the way they did, they literally argued that the Establishment inflicted certain disabilities upon others. But Establishment, as at present understood, inflicted no injury whatever upon the freedom, or progress, or position of any other religious denomination in England. If that be so, how could they account for this spirit of bitterness in Wales? There was no doubt it was founded upon the notion that the fact that one Religious Body was recognised by the State, was connected with the State, that its Courts were State Courts, and that it had State rights, inflicted a certain amount of social inequality and prejudice upon those who were not members of this Church. He could not help thinking that that was a very exaggerated notion. He could not help thinking that the notion of Nonconformist congregations and their ministers, that they were in any way looked down upon or treated with less consideration than the clergy of the Established Church, was a good deal a matter of their own feeling. All he could say was that in the town he represented, and generally in Lancashire, any of the Nonconformist clergymen who was an able man and did his duty to his congregation was as much respected as any clergymen of the Church of England by the members of that Church. But, whether that were so or not, there could be no doubt that disestablishment would not do away with any grievances of which the hon. Members from Wales complained. If they were to disestablish the Church to-morrow, there still would remain certain matters which would give it that social prestige which no disestablishment could take away from it. The right hon. Baronet complained that the Church was the Church of the wealthy. It was impossible to prevent by any Bill the sort of feeling the people had towards the Church that it was the Church of the wealthy. The right hon. Baronet said it was snobbishness. Whether it was or not it was human nature; it was what the people liked—to frequent the Church which was regarded as the Church of the wealthy, and what the right hon. Gentleman called the education and culture of the country, and no disestablishment would prevent that for a single moment. If the Church in Wales were disestablished to-morrow, all these complaints of which they had heard would exist in an aggravated form. When the great religious movement was started by Whitfield and Wesley, had they this notion about going to chapel in carriages and being thought inferior to the people that went in carriages and being looked down upon by the gentry as not good enough? No; they were sturdy religious men, and they knew, however important it was to belong to large Religious Bodies, there were certain advantages in belonging to a small Religious Body, and they had none of that feeling which seemed to have descended to their descendants, and which showed that snobbishness might not be on one side in this matter. He entreated hon. Members from Wales to remember that they would aggravate any sort of feeling of this kind, rather than diminish it, by disestablishment. Did it not strike Welsh Nonconformists to consider all they owed to establishment, to the sort of semi-establishment which they enjoyed in their own counties, and to the national profession of religion? Let him remind hon. Members from Wales that so far from being independent of the State as they supposed, they were really deriving most enormous advantages from establishment. If they wanted to know what establishment was, let them read some of the pamphlets and speeches lately made in France by those who desired to see the Concordat abolished and no State recognition of religion, and they would see that such advantages as the Nonconformist Bodies in Wales and England enjoyed would be considered establishment in the highest degree by many Continental nations. What did they enjoy? Nonconformist Ministers in Wales were freed from personal immunities, such as freedom from serving on juries, as a recognition of their position by the State. Their chapels were free from taxation— a recognition by the State. They enjoyed equally with the denominational schools of the Church of England grants for education; but, above all, they enjoyed that which no private individual could enjoy—they enjoyed the perpetual succession to their property. Anybody might give them property or endow them with land and buildings, which would be preserved to them for ever. That was an enormous privilege which the State could only give because it recognised the importance of religion and refused to be neutral in the matter. Not only was this the case, but the law was careful to preserve, according to the religious foundation, the doctrines taught in that chapel and to preserve them for that particular form for ever. All these advantages were enjoyed by the Nonconformists of this country, who practically enjoyed the great advantages of establishment equally with the members of the Church of England. There were very few privileges the Church of England had which Nonconformists did not enjoy, and this exceptional and useful position of their own they would very much endanger if they began to attack the holding of property, where property was not in excess of the requirements by any Religious Body whatever. He could not conceive, apart from any grievances of their own, why Nonconformists could not see that this natural profession of religion was for them, as for the Church of England, a great boon and blessing to this country. Indeed, he, did not know upon what grounds they could justify even the religious observance of Sunday if the State were to declare itself neutral and had no religion whatever. He had ventured to lay these observations in a moderate, and he hoped a sensible, light before the House. What struck him and every moderate and sensible Churchman anxious for the prosperity and peace of all Religious Denominations in this country was the mischievous and wanton character of an agitation of this kind; wanton because it was no good to anyone in this world, and mischievous because it brought bitterness where there was nothing but good feeling, and tended to destroy that religious peace and concord on which, more than on anything else, depended the prosperity of the nation.

remarked that if bitterness had been imported into this controversy—as it had been—it was mainly because of the conduct of many of the Church clergymen who went about with Petitions against the Welsh Suspensory Bill to induce Nonconformists to sign them, and misrepresenting the object of the measure and of those who supported the national claims of Wales. In face of such facts, how could anything else but bitterness prevail? That, however, was not the case generally. They could discriminate between men and the system. The other day he had the opportunity of showing that in his own person. The members of the council of the South Wales College were called together to nominate a President of the College. Some five-sixths of the members were Nonconformists, and what did they do? He had the honour of proposing that great man who, thank God! was now recovering, the Dean of Llandaff, as President, a proposition which was seconded by another Nonconformist and carried unanimously. There was a reason for that, because the Dean never did anything of the character they complained of other members of the Church of England doing. The hon. Member had said that the clergymen of the Established Church treated the Nonconformist ministers kindly in a social sense. So they did, of course; but he would tell the hon. Gentleman that they had to thank the Nonconformist ministers of the past for the religious state in which Wales was to-day; and yet those men did not stand so high socially in the eve of the law as the most insignificant curate. That was what the Nonconformists of Wales Complained of and wanted to have changed. So far as he could learn, Church property in this country was created by a King who, having committed murder, in expiation of his offence commanded one-tenth of the laud to be given to the Church. They were now going to devote the money to a far better purpose than that King intended. In the United States and in our English-speaking colonies, not only did they do very well without tithes, but very much better. Something had been said as to the progress of the Church of England in Wales. He admitted that in some cases the Church of England did very well indeed; but under what circumstances? Just where the Church of England received the least in tithes she succeeded the most. He lived near a large town which he thought afforded the greatest example of the progress of the Church of England in Wales. There were some 21 places of worship and nearly 30 clergy. All they had in the way of tithes was £250 a year. From Queen Anne's Bounty and tithes together they received about £1,000 a year to carry on that great work. They had, however, during the last 10 years raised in that place by voluntary subscriptions some £60,000. Whenever the Church followed the example of the Nonconformists and trusted to the generosity of her sons and daughters she did well. He was glad and proud to be in the House of Commons that evening on the introduction of such a Bill. The Welsh people were under an undying debt of gratitude to the Home Secretary for the able manner in which he had brought in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken in the spirit of the great majority of the people of Wales. Personally speaking, he did not think the question was one of numbers. They would leave statistics aside; they did not want them at all to prove their case. He maintained that if every man, woman, and child in the Principality were within the pale of the Established Church the case for disestablishment would be as strong then as it was at present. The question was not one of statistics, but one of principle. But disestablishment had made great progress in the minds of men since the franchise had been lowered. The great majority of people in the Principality looked upon the Church as nothing else than a badge of servitude, and, for his own part, he was proud of sitting in a House of Commons in which a Bill for the disestablishment of the Church in Wales had been introduced.

said, he was afraid he could not follow the hon. Member who had just sat down into his historical researches. In his reading he had been unable to come across the King who, according to the hon. Gentleman, had instituted tithes in this country. He doubted that the hon. Member could tell the name of that King, because tithes had been the growth of years, and had been given bit by bit by the great Lords and landowners of the country to the Church for Church purposes. Neither the Government nor the State had endowed the Church as a whole, and to talk of a King, whether foreign, English, or Welsh, as having established tithes, was to revel in the realm of imagination, which was far distant from the realm of history. He confessed that the friends of the Church who sat upon the Opposition side of the House and who were determined to defend the Church must congratulate themselves upon the fact that they at last knew what the Government proposals with regard to disestablishment in Wales were. The Government proposed to take away all the Church endowments in Wales previously to 1703, and the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary appeared to think that they had been very lenient to the Church in not fixing the date at 1820. The fact was, however, that there were very few Church endowments between 1703 and 1820, while most of the Nonconformist endowments in Wales had been given since the beginning of the present century. Therefore, by taking the date 1703 the right hon. Gentleman very cleverly took away nearly everything that belonged to the Church and left nearly everything that belonged to the Nonconformists. The tithes and endowments were to be taken away, and how were they to be used? They were to be used for allotments, for National Art Museums—he wondered the right hon. Gentleman did not add for village music-halls—for everything except religion, the purpose for which they were originally given. Not only the endowments, but the fabrics in some cases were to be taken away, and the cathedrals were to be declared to be national monuments, vested in a purely secular body which was to give a permit for their use for religious services. And yet the Home Secretary got up and declared that no injustice would be inflicted on the Church. It was said that all this was for the benefit of the Church, and that it would remove religious bitterness, as it had been removed in Ireland. But had religious bitterness been entirely removed in Ireland by the disestablishment of the Church in Ireland? Had there been no religious quarrels in Ireland since 1870? Had the Home Secretary never heard of the Belfast riots, or of the religious quarrels in Cork within the past month? To say that the Irish Church Act had removed all religious bitterness and settled the religious question in Ireland was to state what was not true historically. If they took away the Church in Wales assuredly they would have happening in Wales what had happened in Ireland. From attacking the Church hon. Mem- bers from Wales would proceed to attack the land, and from a demand for separate treatment in respect to the Church and land they would next demand Home Rule for Wales. In fact, the Welsh Radical Members were going to play the same game that the Irish Nationalists had played. First, to destroy the Church; then to plunder the landlords, and next to have a separate Parliament. He had never known a Bill introduced to Parliament with so few reasons advanced in support of it. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had said that it was not necessary to go into the reasons why this attack should be made on the Church in Wales, and he referred to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had not done so in regard to the Irish Church in 1869. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had pointed out in 1869 that it was not necessary to go into reasons, because the question had been discussed during the whole of the year in the House of Commons and in the country; that a General Election had taken place upon it; that it had led to the overthrow of a Government, and that, consequently, as the arguments for and against the measure were well known to everybody, there was no necessity to discuss the Bill fully in the House of Commons. Could the right hon. Gentleman really pretend that there was any parallel between the Welsh case and the Irish case? They had not had the discussion which preceded the Irish Bill. Last year they had had the Suspensory Bill, and they had had the matter discussed in a certain sense in the country, but entirely by the Church Party, with the result that that Bill had been petitioned against by one-quarter of the whole adult population of Wales. Was the Home Secretary certain that his plundering policy was popular even among the Welsh Nonconformists? At a Nonconformist meeting held in Carnarvon on March 28 last year speeches were made against the Bill, and it was pointed out that disendowment might next be applied to other denominations and institutions. Mr. E. H. Owen, a Presbyterian, said at that meeting—

"If spoliation commences by the rights and privileges of one Church being disturbed by the Welsh Suspensory Bill, what is there to prevent it from being extended, and perhaps in a short time to all the different sects? Money has been collected for Bala College. What guarantee have we that it will not be used for purposes different to that for which it is intended? I certainly protest against the thin end of the wedge being driven in by the passing of the Welsh Suspensory Bill."

And Mr. R. W. Williams, an Independent, said—

"It was a Bill the spirit of which was that until August, 1894, all the emoluments of the clergy in Wales were to be held subject to the pleasure of Parliament. He would like to put it to those labouring in the vineyard, whether they for a moment would like to have their emoluments and salaries placed at the disposal of the State, or to be held subject to the pleasure of Parliament"?

There was, therefore, evidence that even amongst the Welsh Nonconformists the Suspensory Bill was not so popular as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose. If the analogy of the Irish Church was to be carried out, why was it not carried out in every detail? There were two reasons which operated in the case of Ireland. How far were they applicable in the present case? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian, in stating the case with reference to Ireland, said there were two great reasons why the Church ought to be disestablished and disendowed—first, because the Church was the Church of the very small minority in Ireland; secondly, because the Church in Ireland, far from being progressive, was positively going back.

asked, how far these arguments applied to the Welsh case? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had proved that the Irish Church was the Church of only one-tenth of the population. Would any hon. Member assert that with respect to the Welsh Church? How did that argument apply in the present case? The hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon had put the population belonging to the Church in Wales at one-tenth, and the Member for Flintshire put it at one-fourth. Well, he took the four leading Nonconformist sects—the Independents, the Wesleyans, the Baptists, and the Calvinistic Methodists—and, all told, including adherents who had been described in the Congregational Year Book as men who were members, men who were not members, old men, and young men, children, anybody who even went to a chapel—and he dared say he himself had been included because he had often been to Welsh chapel meetings—and, all told, they amounted to 832,357. In other words, on their own showing the Nonconformists in Wales who asked them to disestablish and disendow the Church were less than one-half. Supposing the Church people were only one-quarter, what followed? At least one-quarter of the people in Wales did not go to any place of worship at all; but if they took the figures of the hon. Member for Carnarvon, then 42 per cent. of the people did not attend places of worship. Yet hon. Gentlemen opposite would get up and say that Wales was the most religious part of the United Kingdom. The figures he had quoted proved that the statements which had been made as to the weakness of the Church in Wales were absolutely unfounded. Churchmen were anxious to bring this matter to the test of figures, and were prepared to abide by the result of a religious Census, but they had been prevented from having it by the action of the Nonconformists. It was further alleged in the case of Ireland that the Church was not progressing. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had stated that at the rate the Church of Ireland had converted the Roman Catholics during the last 50 years it would take 1,500 or 2,000 years to complete the conversion. He contended, from knowledge he had, that the Church in Wales at the present moment was making most extraordinary and rapid progress in every way, and not only, as the right hon. Baronet the Member for Denbighshire had said, in the matter of fabrics. He himself had been to many places where newly-built churches were not big enough for the people who wished to go to them. ["Where"?] He would mention Brymbo, the place where the right hon. Baronet used to live. The increase in the church there had been so great that he believed the right hon. Gentleman had left the place, and lives there no longer. If they wished to know who were not progressing, but were falling back, it was the Nonconformists. He made that statement not on his own responsibility, but on that of the Welsh Nonconformist journals The Goleuad, a celebrated Nonconformist paper, in February, 1888, made the following statement:—

"There has been a fearful falling off during the past year. Scarcely one-third of the members attend the Church meetings. The number of candidates under the charge of the ministers is small and becoming less. It is useless to conceal the fact that the state of the Association is very unsatisfactory.

Two years later the same paper had the following:—

"One matter we have to complain of in Cardiganshire is the weakness of many of our churches. The chief evils that afflict us are unchastity, drunkenness, and a spirit of disputation. The churches have gradually sunk into a state of indifference."

The Banner, another Welsh Nonconformist paper, wrote these suggestive sentences—

"One of the greatest gifts of God is a true leader. The absence of Moses was a serious period to the Israelites, and it was shown that Aaron could not take his place. We do not suggest for one moment that our Connection is without a leader; we believe that there are as good leaders as we ever had. But there are times when a leader is specially wanted; and we are in that condition now. We have many an Aaron glib of tongue; we do not allege that we have not a Moses; but we ask the question lest he may be among us and we cannot see him."

They had, therefore, the Nonconformists admitting that it was they themselves who were in danger in Wales. He would now quote the evidence of a leading Churchman to show the great progress of the Church in Wales. The Bishop of Llandaff said at Rhyl, on the 9th of October, 1891—

"During the eight years I have been Bishop of Llandaff I have ordained 206 deacons against 99 by my predecessor in the same number of years. Seventy additional curates have been engaged in my diocese during the past eight years, and the salary of each, £120, represents an additional outlay of £8,000 per annum going out of the pockets of the Church laity in my diocese. Upon church buildings and restorations £230,000 have been spent during the eight and a-half years of my episcopate, against £60,000 during the eight years my predecessor was in office … . Another convincing proof of Church revival is to be found in the fact that during the first three years of my episcopate I confirmed 10,300 candidates, as against 7,200 by my predecessor, whilst during the past three years the candidates confirmed in my diocese numbered 12,400. I have received the returns of the baptism of 1,600 adults, the great majority of these being Baptists belonging to one Nonconformist denomination. I have with me a list of the names of eight Nonconformist ministers who have written imploring me to receive them into the Church."

He ventured to say the Church in Wales was not a dying Church, but a living and progressive Church. That was a reason against this Bill being passed into law. There was no cause for intervention, except it was that hon. Members who promoted this legislation wanted to strike at once for fear that the Church would grow so strong that afterwards they could not attack her. So much for the argument that the case of the Church in Wales was parallel with the case of the Church in Ireland. Now he came to another argument. They were told that the Church in Wales was an alien Church. He was very much surprised to hear that old argument brought up again, for he thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had dispelled that argument when he proved time after time that the Church in Wales was the lineal descendant of the old British Church. The Church of Wales had existed for centuries. [Mr. W. JOHNSTON: Even before the Church of Rome.] Yes, the Church of Rome was brought over by St. Augustine in the 6th century, whereas the Church in Wales existed in the 2nd century. He would like to point out that this argument, that the Church in Wales was an alien Church, would not bear examination by the light of history. They were told last year by the late Member for Montgomeryshire that it was an alien Church because it was a Church of conquest. Mr. Watkin Williams, in introducing his Motion, did not go so far back as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian. But even he said that the Union took place in the 12th century— that was to say, 150 years before Edward I. conquered Wales. How, then, could it be a Church of Conquest? If they examined into the history of that time it became clear that the two Churches were so mixed up together then that it was impossible to distinguish them. During the time of Edward the Confessor the diocese of Hereford was administered by a Welsh Bishop, but he did not know whether hon. Members opposite would regard this as an English conquest or a Welsh conquest. The fact was that the Churches had grown together for their mutual advantage, and now for over 1,000 years at least the Church in Wales and the Church in England had been one Church. To-night, without a single reason being adduced, they were asked to tear the two Churches asunder. He should oppose the Bill, not merely because the Church in Wales was the National Church, and to destroy it would be to destroy the finest National Institution in the Principality, but because the Church in Wales could not be destroyed without the Church in England being destroyed also. The Home Secretary tried to draw a line between the two Churches. In doing that he must settle with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, in 1886, said—

"The Church of England in Wales is so much an integral part of the Established Church of England that it is not only difficult but impossible to raise the question as a separate one or to deal with the one without involving the other."

He would like to know how the Chancellor of the Exchequer reconciled his position with that of his colleague. There was not an argument which applied to the Church in Wales in this matter which did not apply equally to the Church in England. The two Churches were so bound together by law, constitution, and history that they could not be separated. Were they to regard this Bill as leading up to the disestablishment of the Church in England? He maintained that the reasons brought forward in support of the Bill were altogether unsatisfactory and insufficient. The Bill was inopportune, there was no popular demand for it, and it had never been discussed either at the polls or, to any extent, in that House. To suddenly ask the House to pass this Bill was to ask a task of the House of Commons which the House he hoped would refuse to take upon itself. He hoped the House would see, before they destroyed and plundered this national ancient Church, that its opponents should have some better reasons to adduce, and, moreover, that they should have the country behind them.

said, the hon. Gentleman had told them that this question of Welsh disestablishment had not been discussed at the polls. He wondered if the hon. Gentleman had been in Wales during the General Election, or during any bye-election within the last 15 years. If he had been there, he would have found that this matter had been very largely discussed. In fact, it seemed to him that the Welsh Members had had but one cry for a very long time past, and that was disestablishment and disendowment of the Church. The reason for this was obvious. The Welsh people were a Radical people, but the Church people in Wales were strong Tories. The clergyman in nearly every case was a Tory, and when the Church and the great body of the people were in strong antagonism there seemed to him in that very fact a strong reason for the disestablishment of the Church. The people were dissatisfied with the present state of things, and therefore it was the duty of the House to go to the root of the evil and to put it right. The only way in which you could get good government was to govern the people in the way in which they wished. When the Church of a country was opposed to the wishes of the people it was not a National Church. They had heard of a little meeting in Carnarvon, and they were told it was a representative meeting of the people of Wales, but he must say he was astounded that any hon. Members who had been in Wales should have the courage to come there to-night and make such statements as they had heard. Any man who had lived in Wales knew that with the exception of small districts in the country and small centres in the large towns the people were nearly all Nonconformists—the labourers, and the shopkeepers, and all the rest were Nonconformists—it was only the squire, and the clergymen, and their dependents who were Church people. That was evident to every man who had lived in Wales. He knew of one district which was not so Radical as other districts where there were only one or two families going to the church, while there were two Nonconformist chapels almost full every morning and evening. Within four miles of that place there was a church in ruins, and the services were held in the national schoolroom, while in that same parish there were two or three chapels well attended—that was in Pembrokeshire, which was not so Radical as his own county. In his own county there did not appear to be a man against disestablish- ment, and actually when a candidate was brought down there to oppose him, his opponents knew it was no use to put up anybody who was not in favour of disestablishment, and the candidate had to say that he would vote for disestablishment. The result all the same was that he (Mr. Thomas) had a majority of pretty nearly four to one; and that was the position in nearly every county in Wales at the present moment, and for hon. Members to say that disestablishment and disendowment of the Church in Wales was not demanded by the people showed either that they had not been in Wales at all to judge for themselves, or if they had been there they must have closed their eyes to what was going on about them, and to the evidence of the feeling of the people upon this matter. With regard to tithes, he maintained they were originally given for three purposes—the relief of the poor, education, and religion. They were to be devoted to these three objects, and not to one of them only, and he rejoiced to think that the ultimate effect of this Bill would be to restore these funds to their old uses for the benefit of the nation, and take them out of the hands of those who had been using them for so many years merely for the purpose of increasing the power of the Conservative Party, especially in the country districts where the Church had no hold on the people. [ A cry of "Oh!"] Yes, he was literally accurate in so speaking of the country districts. Although he agreed that in the large towns like Cardiff' and Swansea, where there were large populations, a proportion of which were dependent upon the Church as it were, the Church had succeeded very well, he contended that in the country districts the Church was now what it had been for many years — a total failure. The hon. Gentleman ended up his speech by telling Members that the Church in Wales was the finest national institution that Welshmen ever had. He did not mean to say that that was not the honest opinion of his hon. Friend, but his own view was that Welshmen were the best judges as to what were their best institutions, and Welshmen had come to an emphatic conclusion about the National Church in Wales, which was that it was a failure. There was no man in the House who could say it was not a failure if he conceded the fact that there were not one - quarter of the inhabitants of Wales who believed in the Church as the Church of the people. This was not the first time they had had a discussion upon this subject in the House. He remembered two or three discussions, and they had had speeches to-night from hon. Members which they had heard any time before during the last five or six years. All the Welsh Members had made up their minds about this measure; in Wales the minds of the people had been made up for a long time. In order, as he had said, to secure good government they must give the people what they wanted. The Welsh people wanted disestablishment and disendowment, and the Government would satisfy them by giving them this measure, and the sooner their legislation became effective the better it would be for all concerned—for the Church and for the people. He was convinced that the result of the measure would be this: When the Church in Wales was disestablished and disendowed she would be a successful Religious Body, which she was not at the present time. That was not a view that he was giving to them for the first time that night, but one which he had always given to his constituents. Most of his constituents were Nonconformists, and they believed with him that the Church, once free from the trammels of the State, would be successful, and very successful, throughout the whole of the more thickly-populated districts of Wales, and they hoped she might even succeed more than hitherto in the country districts. With regard to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, he desired to say that he for one had never had the pleasure of listening to a clearer explanation of a Bill. At the same time, he did not mean to say that this measure satisfied all his aspirations. He could have hoped for a little more; but he would not go into that now, because he did not think that the occasion of the First Reading of a Bill was one for picking holes in it. He believed that, speaking generally, it would satisfy his constituents as it satisfied him. It was his belief that the Bill was the beginning of a better condition of things in Wales. When it had done its work, they would find Churchmen and Nonconformists in Wales approaching each other in a kinder spirit, standing on the same platform, instead of as at present standing the one on one side and the other on the other side. He was afraid that perhaps one of the results of this might be that the Welsh would not be so Radical as they were now. Disestablishment and disendowment would tend to make them more Conservative, but it would be better for the country when this evil was removed, when Nonconformists and Churchmen would meet as equals, and not as men one of whom thought himself superior to the other, and when the Religious Bodies of the Principality would all be placed on the same footing.

* said, he did not think that the House would expect an apology from him for intervening in the present Debate. At any rate, he was not one of those who was open to the accusation made by his hon. and learned Friend who had just spoken of wishing to say again what he had said on a previous occasion, for he had never addressed the House on that subject before. The subject was one to which he had for many years given a great deal of close attention. He had had an intimate knowledge and acquaintance with the state of things that existed in South Wales, and was more intimately acquainted than perhaps hon. Gentlemen might think with the affairs of the Church in the Principality. He must admit, however, that he had not the same knowledge of North Wales. Before going further, be should like to add his respectful tribute to the speech of the Home Secretary. It was not possible for him to agree with the right hon. Gentleman's views, but he felt that the whole House must be indebted to him for the clear and well-arranged statement he put before the House, which had enabled them all to appreciate what the proposals of the Government were. There were one or two speeches which followed the Home Secretary's which he thought worthy of notice. He would refer, first, to that of the hon. Member who had just sat down. Some time since they heard an exposition from the Prime Minister as to the conditions which would induce him to vote for or against disestablishment. He thought the candour of his hon. and learned Friend the Mem- ber for East Carmarthen would have led them to the conclusion that his main reason for voting for disestablishment was that the majority of the members of the Church which they were asked to disestablish and disendow were opposed to him in their political views. [Mr. ABEL THOMAS: No.] It was difficult to put any other construction upon the hon. Member's language. All he could say with regard to that was that he did not think it lay in the mouths of Radical Members for Wales to criticise any political agitation proceeding from the Church of England. If it were the right time and the proper opportunity to quote the language of the Welsh vernacular Press he could quote passage after passage to show that the Welsh Press, nine-tenths of the newspapers of which were controlled by Nonconformists, had been doing its utmost to make this a political question. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that the Church in Wales was not the church of the poor or of the labouring class. He was not going to understate any argument or suggest any figures as to majorities or numbers, but he was going to state, and would be prepared at the proper occasion to substantiate with details, that if any person suggested that the Church of England in Wales was not becoming more and more the Church of the labourer and of the poor he was wholly ignorant of what the work of the Church in Wales had been and of what the Church was now doing. Now he would come to the speech of the Home Secretary, and he confessed that he shared the opinions of his right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Sir M. Hicks-Beach) and his astonishment at the way in which this Bill had been presented to the House. There was no fault to find with the lucidity of statement or with the exposition of details. But with regard to this Bill, with regard to this Debate, the most important Debate initiated in this House during this Session — because this was practically the first time that the proposal had been brought forward by the Government to disestablish the Church of England— the right hon. Gentleman had thought it enough to initiate it in a few general terms, with a few general propositions, without venturing to give the House the slightest arguments in its support. It seemed to him that that was contrary to all Parliamentary precedent. He would not refer to the precedent of the Irish Church Debate, for attention had already been called to that; but he would venture to observe that the Member for Midlothian thought fit to introduce the Bill which they all remembered so well—the Home Rule Bill of 1886—in a speech in which he spent an hour and a half in expounding the necessity for the change. His complaint, therefore, was—and it was a complaint which the House was entitled to make—that no Minister of the Crown, no Government was entitled to come down and propose a scheme for such a vast change, and to assume as the basis of his argument propositions which he knew were seriously contested by practically every one of his opponents. It was all very well to say that the House had expressed an opinion on the question of fact. It was not enough to say that because 32 or 33 Members for Wales were in favour of it that was sufficient to justify the proposal. The right hon. Gentleman would understand that he (Sir E. Webster) did not impute anything which he was not prepared to justify in argument. But what were the propositions which the right hon. Gentleman had told them he was prepared to justify, and which he would assume, and which would only occupy a moment or two in expounding? The first was that the Church in Wales was the Church of a comparatively small minority. If the right hon. Gentleman had followed the Debates on this question—if he had listened to the Debate initiated by the Member for Flintshire (Mr. S. Smith) two years ago and the Debate on his own Suspensory Bill last year—he would know that not only was that statement not accepted by the opponents of Disestablishment, but was disputed by them, and that they showed that the Nonconformists did not dare to take a census on the question.

* : Then may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he asserts that the supporters of the Establishment in Wales are not a minority of the people of that Principality?

said, that the right hon. Gentleman had left out the most important words, for he had said that not only was that Church the Church of the minority, but of a comparatively small minority, and he knew quite well that from the point of view of the Opposition that was a very material distinction. It was all very well to bring in Calvinists, Baptists and Wesleyans, but they had to look at the Church as a body—at its work for good, for the spread of education, for the spread of religion—compared with other bodies; and if he affirmed they were to take all the combined Nonconformist bodies, and put them together, and even include the Roman Catholics, which on a question of this kind they had no right to do, it would be found that the English Church in Wales and the Nonconformist bodies would be very nearly equally divided. [ Cries of "Oh!"] He cared not for jeers or sneers from the other side of the House. They would not prevent him saying what was his distinct conviction from the investigation he had been able to make into this matter. If the figures which Mr. Gee had so carefully suppressed for years had been brought out the Church would have been found to embrace among its members something approaching one-half of the population of the country. The right hon. Gentleman must not misunderstand him. He (Sir R. Webster) might be right or he might be wrong, but the Home Secretary had no right to assume for the purposes of this Debate that the Church only represented a comparatively small minority. He gave all credit to his right hon. Friend for sincerity of purpose; but the next proposition which he had asked the House to assume was one which ought never to have been made to the House. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Church in Wales was associated with injurious and humiliating memories. Did he refer to the period when clergymen who were appointed had not sufficient knowledge of the Welsh language? No one regretted that more than he did. Or did the right hon. Gentleman refer to the time when there was a great deal of absenteeism from cures both in England and Wales? No one deplored those periods more than he did. But speaking of the history of the Church of Wales and its leading events, not for the last 20 or 30 years, but, as he had traced them, for centuries, it was untrue to say that there were any more injurious or humiliating memories associated with the Church in Wales than with the history of the English Church, or any other Church. Everybody had to lament the condition of things which existed in the 18th century with regard to Church life. But that was happily long past, and to found the present action towards the Church on that state of things was as just as to condemn a man, against whose character nothing could be said, because in his youth he had committed indiscretions. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that the Welsh Church was the symbol of national discord. What did he mean? When had national discord arisen in any other sense than it arose wherever there were established and dominant churches for which bodies had from time to time broken away? Did the right hon. Gentleman suggest that because there were Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, and Congregationalists in Wales, the Church was a symbol of national discord? Did he pretend that those persons who belonged to the Nonconformist bodies were more or less Welsh than those who adhered to the National Church? The fact was that the working classes, who in large numbers were members of the Church, would be found to be as devoted to the national language and literature, and to possess the national sentiment, just as strongly as the Calvinists, or Baptists, or Wesleyans. He said that when the right hon. Gentleman came to prove before this House that the existence of the Church in Wales was a symbol of national discord, he would find himself unable to divide the two classes into one opinion or the other. All the right hon. Gentleman could do was to say that the Church in Wales in years gone by had been so conducted that there were now greater signs of dissent in some parts of Wales than there would be in corresponding districts of England. It was a proposition that he denied that the existence of the Church in Wales was a symbol of national discord. The next proposition of the right hon. Gentleman which they were asked to assume was that the Church was an aggressive sectarian power. What did the right hon. Gentleman mean? Was the desire to build churches and to go among the poor work which the right hon. Gentle- man would deprecate? Was the desire to bring men into the fold of the Church work which the right hon. Gentleman would endeavour to prevent? What right had the right hon. Gentleman to speak of the aggressive sectarian power of the Church unless he applied those epithets to the activity of the Church? The activity of the Church was the activity of her ministers and Bishops, and it had led men to go out into the hills and valleys of Wales and, with no great remuneration for themselves, to pass their days in endeavouring to spread what they believed was true religion among the people. There was no more aggressive sectarian power in the vitality of the Church than in that of any other Church which desired to spread its doctrines and enlarge its membership. What had the Baptists and Calvinists and Methodists been doing all over the country except to endeavour to spread their own teaching? It was not, in his opinion, a just way of dealing with the question to attribute to the Church such a description without telling the House what was meant, leaving them to assume from the right hon. Gentleman's language that such epithets were a proper description of the Church's work. They were told that the Church had been singled out because it enjoyed from the State a patrimony which the Nonconformists regarded as theirs. In his view, the Nonconformists had been most improperly led by misrepresentations of history and of justice and equity to believe that property which had been dedicated to religious purposes was theirs in the sense that they were entitled to devote it to other purposes than that to which it was originally dedicated. It was in that sense that the Nonconformists of Wales had been taught to believe that the Church revenue was their property and patrimony. He could not hope within the limits of time at his disposal to deal exhaustively with the propositions of the Home Secretary, but there was one reason why he wished now to make his protest against the assumption that these propositions would not permit of any denial or any refutation. He thought it was extremely doubtful whether they would ever have another opportunity of dealing with the question. He did not know whether hon. Members from Wales were altogether satisfied with | the position of matters. It was not necessary for him to surmise whether they were satisfied with the details of the Bill. He understood the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary to say that he had never heard of Mr. Gee. Probably what the right hon. Gentleman meant was that his proposals were not taken from Mr. Gee's paper.

said, he had read that scheme very carefully, and it looked as if the language of the Bill had been drawn by some person who had a most intimate knowledge of Mr. Gee. There i was a marvellous running together of ideas and phrases and expressions. With regard to the way in which it was proposed to deal with departures from the Irish Church Bill, there was a remarkable family likeness between the Bill which the Home Secretary had presented and the scheme which was fully discussed in Wales under Mr. Gee's auspices. He desired the House to appreciate the position of matters and the number of persons affected by the Bill. They were dealing with a religious establishment ministering to a population of 1,780,000 people. It had 1,010 benefices and 1,488 clergymen. It was a very remarkable circumstance that, speaking of the period of this century, the number of clergymen had in- creased from 700 to 1,488. He thought it was fair to say that that was a direct indication of the vitality of the Church. One of the charges brought against the Church in Wales was that unnecessary churches had been built and money unnecessarily spent, having regard to the requirements of the people, but he did not think the charge had ever been made that the Church had too many clergymen. Certainly the stipends of the clergy were not such as to attract the clergy. The average stipend in the Principality was only about £143, and, in view of endowments in some cases, it was clear that a large proportion of the clergy in Wales were working for a mere pittance—under £100 a year—and yet were doing good work for the Church in which they believed, and were certainly not doing it for the mere sake of the stipend. He would like in justice to refer to the money spent upon the cathedrals, which the Home Secretary proposed to take entirely out of the care of the Church and to hand over to a body constituted they knew not how. In the restoration of the three cathedrals of Llandaff, St. Asaph, and St. David's, no less a sum than £450,000 had been spent during the present century; and, although some portion had no doubt been the money of Nonconformists, who recognised the value of the treasures they possessed, most of that sum had been contributed by Churchmen. If the Bill reached a later stage he hoped an opportunity would be afforded for bringing before the House what amount had been voluntarily expended upon churches and parsonages, Church schools, and kindred establishments—and this, too, at a time when it was asserted by the Home Secretary and others that the Church had not been fulfilling her responsibilities. Another point he wanted to touch upon was the suggestion put forward that the Church in Wales was not the Church of the poor but of the rich, not the Church of the many but of the few. He had no wish to overstate the work of the Church. The real test of the work which the Church was doing was to be found in those places where there was a growing population. In the Rhondda Valley, which was almost entirely a working-class population, the Bishop of Llandaff, who had been in the See for l0or 11 years, had during the past three years consecrated five new Churches, and before that he had consecrated six others. Those Churches had been built almost wholly out of contributions by working men, and the astonishing part of the matter was that, even during the periods of strikes and depression, working men had still come forward with their contributions to the Church. [Mr. ASQUITH: Hear, hear!] The right hon. Gentleman cheered that statement, but there was no indication of it in his speech. The Leader of the Welsh Party had come forward and spoken of the Church as the Church of the wealthy. There was one fact which had not, perhaps, come within the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman. He had no personal knowledge of the matter, but it was given to him on good authority—it was, that in the diocese of St. Asaph, although he was not personally acquainted with it, there were no less then 90 parishes in which the clergyman of the Church of England was the only minister of religion. It was by the examination of such details as these that the real work of the Church could be appreciated. It was not just or right to say that the Church was "the symbol of national discord." The right hon. Gentleman had spoken as though the Church had not been increasing its influence over the people. He really thought if they were discussing this matter outside the House hon. Members from Wales would not deny that the influence of the Church had been increasing. But there was one other aspect of the case which should not be lost sight of, and that was that the prosperity of the Nonconformist Churches was not increasing. ["Oh!"] He hoped he should be permitted to state his case. He courted investigation of the matter. He would take the Calvinists. From 1884 to 1886, according to their own Returns, there was a decrease of 4,244 communicants. There was a decrease in the same period of £6,051 in their collections, and what was more important, there was an increase of debt upon the chapels of £76,192. With regard to the Baptists, there was a decrease in three years, from 1883 to 1886, of 56 clergymen, and there was a decrease between 1884 and 1886 of 432 members of the Baptist community. These figures might be supplemented with others relating to various denominations, though he did not say to the same extent. Therefore, he contended that the state of the Nonconformist Church at the present time was not as prosperous as it was five, or six, or eight years ago. This led him to think that probably the Nonconformists thought this was an opportune time to attack the Church in Wales. What was the testimony of a Nonconformist as to the work of the Church? Perhaps one of the most -distinguished Nonconformists, speaking on this subject, said that—

"In the whole history of Christendom there is no such remarkable religious progress as that made by the Church of England in Wales in the last 50 years."

And this was the time that was chosen by the Nonconformist bodies to put in array their forces against the Church of England. Perhaps they thought that if they were to have any chance they had better make the struggle before the Church further strengthened her position; before the Nonconformists ceased to be able to say, as the Nonconformists on the whole had some claim to say, that they represented the majority of the Welsh people. Now he came to that which was the most important point. What was this property which they were intending to divert from the purposes to which it was now devoted? They were not standing there as lawyers, so far as the purposes of this argument was concerned. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that the property was the property of each individual benefice. Upon that extraordinary argument the right hon. Gentleman contended that he was justified in diverting the property to parochial and other purposes. They had heard that night of some King who, because he had committed a murder, directed that the tithe should be appropriated to the purposes to which it was appropriated. He believed that no one who had ever investigated the origin of the tithe had ever given that account of it. He did not understand what the Home Secretary and others who had spoken meant when they spoke of tithe as national property. He knew of a national literature, of national poetry, and of the National Debt, but he could only understand national property to mean property legally or equitably contributed by the nation. It was well known, as far as the Church of England was concerned, that the only direct contribution made to it by the State was the £2,500,000 contributed at the beginning of this century. He respectfully submitted that no one had ever been able to establish the proposition which justified the suggestion that tithes were national property. He said this, because he thought it was one of the cardinal points upon which the reason for this attempted spoliation rested. Ignorant persons had been led to believe that the tithe was something that the State had diverted from other purposes to the purposes of the Church. Even so eminent a lawyer as the hon. Member for Carmarthen had said that the tithe was originally appropriated to the poor, or to charity, or to education. He did not believe that to be an accurate statement. Whatever might have been the original appropriation, it was an appropriation by the State. It was an appropriation made from time to time by the individual State. There was no justice or warrant for the suggestion that any appropriation was made by the nation in respect of national property being devoted to this purpose. His point with regard to the matter was that for a great number of years the tithe had been devoted to purposes for which it was originally appropriated by the dedication and at the will of those who might have appropriated it to other purposes. It could not be denied that this property had hitherto been employed in the cause of religion; and this was not a scheme of reform by which it was proposed to do the religious work better. The proposal was to take the money away from religious and apply it to secular purposes, and those purposes were inconsistent with the origin of the property and its historic use. The scheme laid the Government open to serious accusation. The secular purposes included the provision of trained nurses; and then came district halls. They knew what halls were to be used for; that came out in the discussions on the Parish Councils Bill. They would be the scenes of agitated political meetings, of rivalry between competing candidates. Could that be reconciled with the original intention with which the money was given to Church purposes? The purposes also included education and—

"Any other purpose of local and general utility not provided for out of the rates."

Yes, but most of these objects could be provided for out of the rates. It was obvious ignorant people would be led to suppose that disestablishment would relieve their own pockets. The intention might be disclaimed, but not the effect. Translations from the vernacular Press had been quoted in the House by Mr. Byron Reed which indicated that the advocates of disestablishment did not hesitate to put this view before the people. No one who had studied the subject even superficially, no one who had made himself acquainted with the history of the Welsh Church, could have the slightest doubt that for centuries private benefactors, with large-hearted charity and great benevolence, had set aside funds for the greatest and most sacred purpose that man could conceive— namely, the worship of Almighty God according to the Christian faith. He could understand a proposal that these funds should be taken, and under the direction of wise men distributed among bodies thought to be carrying on the same work in a better way. But this proposal was not made upon any such ground. The Calvinist, Methodist, and Wesleyan Bodies in Wales did not dare to ask that these funds should be diverted directly to their own purposes, for they knew that that would be downright spoliation and robbery. No; they did not make that claim, but they were trying to do indirectly what they dared not do directly. They could not ask for contributions from the funds of the Church towards the maintenance of their own chapels and the stipends of their ministers, but they asked for contributions towards the parish room, the public library, and other purposes, and thus hoped to spare themselves expenditure. But it was scarcely less unjust, if at all, to strive to appropriate funds indirectly than to ask for them directly. He wished that hon. Members opposite could vote upon this measure uncontrolled by Party ties. He should then appeal confidently to many of them to support him in his opposition to the Bill. Because he believed that in the end national disaster resulted from unjust deeds, and that wrongs committed by a nation did not remain unpunished, he asked the House to reject this scheme, which was contrary to every principle of right and equity.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."— ( Mr. Lloyd-George. )

Motion agreed to.

Debate adjourned till Monday next.

Orders of the Day

Wild Birds Protection Act (1880) Amendmnet Bill.—(No. 134.)

Committee

[ Progress 23rd April. ]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2.

moved the omission of Sub-section 1. He said, it appeared to him that after the discussions that took place last Session in both Houses it would not be well that the County Council or any other body should have power to forbid the collection of all eggs. Sub-section (1) dealt with eggs of every species, whilst Sub-section (2) proposed that the power of protection should extend only to particular species. It appeared to him that the promoters of the Bill would gain all they desired by Sub-section (2), and that Sub-section (1) gave unnecessarily large powers.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (1.)—( Viscount Cranborne )

Question proposed, "That Sub-section (1) stand part of the Clause."

said, he thought his noble Friend could not be aware of the origin of the sub-section. When the Bill left the House last year it contained only the proviso for the protection of eggs of different species. It had been found on consultation with various learned bodies that great difficulty in many if not in most cases existed in identifying the eggs of different species. Some authorities went, so far as to say that no conscientious ornithologist would be prepared to swear to the identity of any egg unless he had seen the bird lay it. Of course, it was only under very exceptional circumstances indeed that tins security would be obtained. The first sub-section was the proviso substituted by the Lords last year for the proviso agreed to by the Commons, and it had now been inserted as an alternative to the original proposal. He was aware that both provisos were subject to the same objection. It would be extremely difficult for any body like the County Council to decide what eggs were capable of identification and what areas should be protected in order to secure the eggs of certain species that vested within those areas. On the whole, it had seemed to those who took an interest in the Bill that the best course was to give Local Authorities the alternative of the two proposals of Sub-section (1) and Subsection (2).

said, the argument of his hon. Friend had not convinced him. It appeared to him to be absurd that any little boy who took a bird's egg within a particular area should be liable to be brought before the Magistrates and fined.

said, the proposal made in the clause was a more serious one than it seemed at first sight, inasmuch as it gave power to a Local Authority to make that a crime which was not a crime unless they made it so. He thought that a very serious delegation of authority to make to a County Council or any other local authority.

As this appears to be contested business I beg to move to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—( Mr. Sexton. )

said, the proposals of the clause might appear somewhat extreme, but County Councils had been set up and entrusted with responsibility, and if they were not the authority best fitted to judge of the local circumstances he wished to know what they were to be the judge of. He would give a concrete instance of the desirability of having such a clause. There were two islands in Scotland on which the osprey still bred. The osprey was perfectly innocuous except that it preyed upon fish. It surely would not be unreasonable were the County Councils of Ross and Inverness to obtain powers from the Secretary for Scotland to prohibit all egg-taking upon these two small islands, which did not occupy more area than the precincts of the House. He would give another instance. Suppose the County Council of Surrey were actuated by the desire to preserve nightingales upon Wimbledon Common. Would it be unreasonable for the Home Secretary to grant the County Council of Surrey power to prohibit all egg-taking upon Wimbledon Common in order to protect nightingales?

Motion agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday 30th May.

Building Societies Bill—(No. 27.)

Second Reading

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Banbury. )

* : There is no objection, I think, to the Second Reading of this Bill, which is practically the same as that read a second time a day or two ago. There is only a difference as to one clause, and that would be a very proper subject to be dealt with by the Standing Committee.

said, the Building Societies in his district took exception to the Bill, and he must therefore object to the Second Reading.

Under the circumstances, I move that the Order be discharged and the Bill withdrawn. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Gladstone) for his statement.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order be discharged, and the Bill withdrawn."—( Mr. Banbury. )

Question put, and agreed to.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.—(No. 150.)

Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill. (No. 140.)

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.

Quarter Sessions Bill [Lords.] (No. 162.)

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

Public Libraries (Scotland) Bill. (No. 171.)

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday next.

Message from the Lords

Statute Law Revision Bills, &c.—That they do propose that the Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision Bills and Consolidation Bills do meet in Committee Room B, on Monday-next, at Twelve o'clock.

Motions

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 6) Bill

On Motion of Mr. J. Morley, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Local Government Board for Ireland, under " The Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878," relating to the rural sanitary district of Tullamore, ordered to be brought in by Mr. J. Morley and Sir J. T. Hibbert.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 191.]

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 7) Bill

On Motion of Mr. J. Morley, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Local Government Board for Ireland, under " The Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878," relating to the rural sanitary district of Roscrea, ordered to be brought in by Mr. J. Morley and Sir J. T. Hibbert.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 192.]

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 8) Bill

On Motion of Mr. J. Morley, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Local Government Board for Ireland, under " The Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878," relating to the rural sanitary district of Strabane, ordered to be brought in by Mr. J. Morley and Sir J. T. Hibbert.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 193.]

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill

On Motion of Sir W. Foster, Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to the urban sanitary districts of Bristol, Heckmondwike, Southampton, Sowerby Bridge, and Stockport, ordered to be brought in by Sir W. Foster and Mr. Shaw-Lefevre.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 194.]

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill

On Motion of Sir W. Foster, Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to the urban sanitary districts of Bradford (York) and Saint George, and the rural sanitary districts of the Belper Union (two), the Wakefield Union, and the township of Saddleworth, ordered to be brought in by Sir W. Foster and Mr. Shaw-Lefevre.

Bill presented, and road first time. [Bill 195.]

Commissioners of Works Bill

On Motion of Mr. H. Gladstone, Bill to amend "The Commissioners of Works Act, 1852," and for other purposes relating to the Commissioners of "Works, ordered to be brought in by Mr. H. Gladstone and Sir J. T. Hibbert.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 196.]

Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland) Bill

On Motion of Mr. M'Cartan, Bill to amend the Law relating to Local Courts of Bankruptcy in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. M'Cartan, Mr. Wolff, Mr. Maurice Healy, Mr. Young, Mr. Knox, and Mr. Flynn.

Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 197.]

East India (Legislative Councils.)

Return [presented 23rd April] to be printed. [No. 86.]

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL

Paper [presented 25th April] to be printed. [No. 87.]

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL

Paper [presented 25th April] to be printed. [No. 88.]

Parliamentary Constituencies

Return [presented 25th April] to be printed. [No. 89.]

Agriculture (Royal Commission) (England.)

Copy presented,—of Report by Dr. W. Fream (Assistant Commissioner) on the Andover District of Hampshire and the Maidstone District of Kent [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS, 1878 to 1893

Copy presented,—of further Papers and Correspondence relating to the landing in Great Britain from Canada of Cattle affected with Pleuro-Pneumonia, with Appendices (in continuation of [C. 7123]) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Bank of British North America

Copy presented,—of Draft of a Supplemental Charter for the Bank of British North America [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Superannuation Act, 1884

Copy presented,—of Treasury Minute, dated 16th April, 1894, declaring that George Beetles, Lineman, Post Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate, through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

East India Financial Statement

Return presented,—relative thereto [Address 24th April; Mr. Buchanan]; to lie upon the Table.

Emigration and Immigration

Copy ordered, "of Statistical Tables relating to Emigration and Immigration from and into the United Kingdom in the year 1893, and Report to the Board of Trade thereon."—( Mr. Hurt )

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 90.]

Irish Church Temporalities Fund

Copy ordered, "of Statement respecting the present financial position of the Irish Church Temporalities Fund."— ( Sir J. T. Hibbert. )

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 91.]

House adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.