^* said, he intended to move the reduction of the Vote. He should like to see it rejected altogether; but he imagined that part of the money had been spent, and that, therefore, it would be useless to make a Motion to that effect. The Minister for War had spoken yesterday of unregenerate days—alluding either to himself or the Yeomanry. Probably the reference was to himself, seeing that in days gone by the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of economy, but now his soundness on that Radical doctrine appeared to be doubtful. The War Office, possibly, was too strong for him now that he was in Office, but he was strong enough to oppose them when out of Office. The right hon. Gentleman had gone against the charge years ago, and had asked hon. Members to oppose it; and if he adhered to his former view, he ought to have the courage, now that he was in power, to strike out the Vote altogether. He (Mr. Morton) did not wish to say a word disrespectful of the Yeomanry. They were no worse than other people, but as a fighting force the Yeomanry were of no use whatever. He was altogether opposed to the maintenance of fighting forces, being in favour of arbitration as a means of settling International disputes. Still, if we must have an Army, it should be a fighting force. The Yeomanry merely "played at soldiers." Therefore, they ought to be got rid of altogether. They were told that in past days the Yeomanry had been of some use in putting down rioting, but the police were now able to do that. It had not been shown that the Yeomanry was in an efficient state to do any fighting whatsoever. He was entirely in favour of giving this money to the Volunteer Force, who had done good service in putting itself into a state of efficiency for the defence of the country. He understood from experts that they could not very well have an efficient Volunteer Cavalry Force. The Yeomanry were something of that sort, and he could well understand the difficulty there was in making it efficient and in obtaining horses. If the money could be spared it should be voted to the Volunteers, who rendered efficient service to the country, and who had never been properly recognised by the State. For the purpose of testing the question he would move to reduce the Vote by £40,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,000, be granted for the said Service."—( Mr. A. C. Morton .)

said, he must protest against the attacks made in the Committee against the Yeomanry Force. He submitted that the criticisms of the hon. Baronet the Member for Cockermouth and others were altogether out of date, and he would advise them when they renewed their attack to discard the stale jokes and antiquated gibes which were hurled against the Yeomanry last night. The hon. Baronet did not always make stale jokes, but when he alluded to the pace at which the Yeomanry were able to retire the joke was a very ancient one. If the hon. Member for Essex, who, though he might have great knowledge of other Military Forces, had very little acquaintance with the body in question, were to ask cavalry officers who had inspected Yeomanry regiments during the last few years, they would one and all, he was certain, give a very different account of the Force to that which was given last night. They would all bear testimony to the value and efficiency of the Force. The hon. Baronet had made complaint of the expense of the Force. In his opinion, it was an extremely cheap Force, and the £70,000 spent upon it was extremely well laid out. He would ask hon. Gentlemen this one question, although he knew it was no use pressing it upon the hon. Member for Peterborough: Did they think it possible for the Reserve Forces to be of use without cavalry? No doubt it would be impossible to maintain Volunteer cavalry, but that was the strongest argument for maintaining the Yeomanry in the most efficient state possible. This was the only form in which cavalry in connection with Volunteers could possibly be maintained. He was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman opposite last night attribute all the improvement in the Yeomanry Force to the new Regulations and the organization lately introduced, because it was well known that that improvement began long before the new Regulations came into existence. The Yeomanry, however, were quite willing to carry out those Regulations and to be tried by the new standard of efficiency. One point of difficulty connected with the new organization was the long distances the permanent staff had to travel in carrying out their duties in regard to preliminary drill, and so on. He knew instances where the permanent sergeants had to travel 25 miles to reach the troops or shooting grounds. A healthy rivalry existed among the Yeomanry, which would always tend to maintain their present excellent condition, though no doubt troops forming one squadron and at perhaps 20 or 30 miles distance from headquarters would have very little in common.

did not think that the disparaging observations of the hon. Member for Peterborough—who, no doubt, possessed great military knowledge—with regard to the Yeomanry would have much weight with the country. Perhaps the hon. Member would explain how under his new tactics infantry were to act without cavalry. It was absolutely necessary that the Yeomanry Force should be maintained in order to act as the cavalry of the Volunteer Force. The force was a most inexpensive one, and it possessed the advantage of having one horse to each man instead of two men to each horse, as was the case in the Regular cavalry. The defenders of the Yeomanry fortunately were not confined to one side of the House alone. The hon. Member for Cirencester had pointed out how useful the Yeomanry cavalry were to the country. Something had been said last night about the Yeomanry being useful assistants to the Civil power, but the Force earnestly hoped that they would never have the duty imposed upon them of riding down an unarmed mob of their fellow-countrymen. As had been pointed out with regard to the inception of the Yeomanry, many of the regiments were raised at the time of Napoleon's threatened invasion of the Island. It was very interesting at this day to examine the maps then drawn up, showing the tactics to be adopted in the event of a descent upon our coasts. The Force was extremely popular, and, whenever it was called out, it brought a considerable amount of business to the country towns. An article, written by Mr. Frederic Harrison, had recently appeared in the magazines in reference to the incidence of taxation, and suggesting that it would be well to go back to the system of the old days, when the landed gentry provided so much of the money and so many of the troops or armed men required for the service of the King. The article also referred to the ancient Greek and Roman times, when men were picked out for the service of the State. The writer was evidently hardly aware of the existence of the Yeomanry cavalry, largely maintained by the country gentlemen, the cost being only supplemented by the small amount granted them by the Government. The country gentlemen were willing to go on supporting the Yeomanry and Volunteer Forces in spite of the cold water which was thrown upon them. The Yeomanry had been long threatened, but "threatened people lived long," and he trusted the Force would continue to do the good work it had done in the past, in spite of the attacks of the great military authorities opposite and their new tactics. He hoped the War Office would not reduce the permanent staff, which was as low as it could be consistent with the efficiency of the Yeomanry.

said, there could be no doubt this was one of the cheapest Forces we possessed, and that to do away with it would be a piece of great folly in the organisation of the defence of the country. The hon. Member for Peterborough was probably not aware that the total cost of the Yeomanry to the country was not equal to that of a single Regular cavalry regiment. When the squadron system was adopted from the Regular cavalry lately in the reorganisation of the Yeomanry, the permanent troop-sergeant-majors were done away with. It was now complained that the duties of the sergeant-majors, on whom the efficiency and internal organisation of the regiment depended, were too onerous, and he suggested that they should be granted railway passes so that they might easily cover the distances which separated the two troops under their control.

^* said, the important question was whether the Yeomanry would be fit for the duties which they would be called upon to discharge in the case of war—whether they were quite up to the mark? In a country like England cavalry could not be utilised to any great extent by way of acting in mass, but in scouting duty the hunting farmers of England, who largely formed the Yeomanry, would be invaluable. It was on our Militia, Volunteers, and Yeomanry that we should mainly have to depend in case of invasion, which could only occur after a great disaster in a European war, when probably our Regular cavalry would be depleted or destroyed. That was an answer to the question so often asked—Why could not the Regular cavalry do this duty? Of course, they would if at home. But before we can suppose an invasion, we must suppose disaster to our Army abroad. And in such case our home defence would largely depend on the forces—namely, Militia, Volunteers, and Yeomanry—which cannot be sent abroad. For those reasons he strongly supported the Vote for the Yeomanry. They received no pay, and the allowance made for man and horse was but small, and that which was done for the Volunteers should surely be done by the country for the Yeomanry as well. His hon. Friend had mentioned the case of a yeoman who, at 75 years of age, had not missed drill for 50 years. While allowing the importance of having tried and well-trained men in the Yeomanry, he agreed that if it were composed largely of men with such service records as that it might then very justly be considered by its critics as even more useless than the Yeomanry Force of the olden time. From observations he had made during the years he commanded in the cavalry, and also from the general experience of hunting and steeplechasing men, he was inclined to say that the age for active service should not exceed 42 years either in the Yeomanry or for cavalry regiments.

said, he would not presume to follow the gallant and distinguished officer in his criticisms and eulogium on the Yeomanry from the point of view of Army work, but he would submit that this Force had a special merit, in so far as the men were civilians first and soldiers afterwards. His sympathies had always gone forth to such men, for he shared the prejudice held by some people against having any standing Army at all. The fact that they were civilians as well as soldiers should not be lost sight of "whenever it was necessary to call out a military force in order to quell any local disturbance, for, as fellow townsmen, they would certainly act with more consideration than the Regular troops, and, therefore, would not be so likely to incense the mob to commit acts of violence. He remembered reading of a case in which during the Reform riots in Wiltshire the local Yeomanry were called upon to charge a mob which had taken possession of a park. In the charge one of the troopers dropped his sword, which was promptly picked up and handed to him by a rustic. His next man asked him why he did not cut the rustic down, and the reply was that he would not have done that for anything, as the man was the son of his carter. He considered that the Yeomanry Force was the most economical of all the branches of our Army. For these reasons he trusted that the hon. Member for Peterborough would not press for the reduction of the Vote. He had often been happy to follow the hon. Member's lead in Motions for the protection of economy, but believing, as he did, that their energies might be more usefully applied to matters on which more money was spent, he appealed to him, in the name of old comradeship in the fight for economy, not to press the Motion.

^* heartily supported that appeal. He believed it was impossible to get a cheaper or more economical force than the Yeomanry, which, he maintained, formed a most valuable auxiliary to our cavalry. It was a Force of 9,000 or 10,000 men and horses, costing £112,000. He thought the hon. Member must have been misled in this matter. Some time since he had the Assistance of the present Secretary for War in voting for the abolition of Yeomanry Cavalry.

I did not have his Assistance; he had mine.

^* said, the right hon. Gentleman had evidently now found salvation. They had his authority for it that the Force had immensely improved, and was much more useful for service in the field than it was some years since; and as other Votes of great interest were to come before the Committee, he hoped they would be allowed to proceed without further delay and without a Division.

said that, after the speeches delivered on the previous night by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Derby and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War, he did not propose to vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for Peterborough. The Secretary for War had every opportunity of knowing whether the Force was efficient; but that as they had his authority for the statement that it was, he would rely on his judgment. But while he could not support the hon. Member for Peterborough he did not feel he could vote the other way, and he should therefore abstain from taking any part in the Division.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 112.—(Division List, No. 149.)

Original Question put, and agreed to.

2. £804,000, Volunteer Corps, Pay, and Allowances.

said, he wished to take that opportunity to congratulate the Military Authorities and the Volunteer Force generally on the increase in the Force. Although this, of course, involved an addition to the Vote, he thought the money was well spent. He noticed from the Estimate that the total of the Force had risen from 218,800 to 221,000 men, and this was a proof that satisfactory steps were being taken to keep up a most useful Force. But he had one or two suggestions to make to the Secretary of State for War, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to see his way to give effect to them. The first was with regard to the Capitation Grant. At present this grant, together with the proficiency allowance, was paid once a year, and he ventured to suggest that at any rate some proportion of it should be handed over as soon as it was earned. The Volunteer year ended on the 31st of October, and of course the men must have made themselves efficient prior to that date. But the grant was not paid until April in the following year, and he thought six months was a long time for the officers to be kept out of the money, the result being not infrequently that money had to be borrowed to meet the current expenses of the battalion. It might be urged that this would upset all the financial arrangements of the War Office, but probably an earlier payment might be made without much difficulty, and it certainly would be much appreciated by the Volunteer authorities. Then there was the question of transport in case of mobilisation. It the case of its being necessary to move-it, a Volunteer corps would be useless without transport, and many officers recognising the fact had already made-arrangements to supply their regiments-with the means of transport. This, however, was necessarily an expensive proceeding, and his suggestion to the Secretary for War was that when an inspecting officer certified that transport vehicles sufficiently horsed were paraded at the annual inspection a capitation grant of 35s. for one man per company to act as driver should be allowed, the man to wear the uniform of the battalion, but not to otherwise qualify. That would be a great help to the Volunteers in this matter of transport. As to the Capitation Grant generally, he thought that was sufficient for all practical purposes. The next point was as to the transfer of Volunteers to the Regular Army. It frequently happened that after a young fellow had been in the Volunteers a few months he enlisted into the Regulars. But during his service as a Volunteer a considerable sum of money had been spent in providing him with a uniform, and these clothes were, as a rule, thrown on the commanding officer's hands, for there was a general dislike to the issue of old or part-worn uniforms, and many men refused to serve in corps in which this practice prevailed. He would suggest that in such cases of enlistment a grant should be made to the Volunteer corps to cover the expenses thus incurred. Many Volunteer regiments had now become battalions of territorial regiments. In the old days they were called Rifle Corps, but for some years that designation had to a great extent been abandoned. As the system of making them battalions of territorial regiments was now pretty general, he thought the Volunteer regiments should as nearly as possible assimilate with that of the Militia battalions of the same regiment. Many inspecting officers had already advocated that; and only a fortnight previously, at his own, regimental camp, the inspecting officer found fault with certain badges worn by the non-commissioned officers, and said that they should be similar to those used in the Militia battalion. But the present Regulations did not permit Volunteer officers to clothe and dress their men in the same way as Militia battalions, although he believed such a thing would be very popular. Coming next to the permanent staff, he urged that an allowance should be made to the commanding officers of headquarter companies to enable them to engage some sergeant discharged from the Army to assist the sergeant-instructor as orderly-room clerk, the necessity for this arising from the fact that the Official Returns to be filled in were rapidly increasing in number, and if the sergeant-instructor had to attend to them he was bound to neglect his other duties. Further, he thought that the permanent staff should be attached to a Line regiment for drill purposes one month in every year. The resident instructors lived, many of them, in the country villages. They attended a few regimental and battalion drills, but had really very little to do. It would be a great advantage if the sergeant-instructors could be sent out more regularly to make them better acquainted with the new drill, and he would put it to the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not see his way to order sergeant-instructors for a period of one month each year to be attached to and drill with the Line regiment, or with the depôt of the territorial regiment. It was the more necessary to carry out some suggestion of this kind, because, every year almost, changes in drill were made and imposed on the Volunteer Force as well as on the Regular Army. A point which had been more than once previously referred to in connection with the Force was the brigadier system, which had been in operation several years. He had no fault to find with the system as it at present existed, but the duties and responsibilities of the brigadier should be more clearly defined by the Military authorities, for at present the position of those officers was in many respects anomalous. As to the existing Musketry Regulations for the Volunteers, he thought they were sufficient; and, in view of an intimation given by the right hon. Gentleman on a previous occasion that it was proposed to introduce further and larger conditions, he would suggest that to press the Volunteers too hard on this point would have an effect contrary to that which might be intended and desired. Field-firing was undoubtedly a very important matter with the Volunteers and Regular Army alike, and lie desired to assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Force tried hard to fulfil the conditions required to the satisfaction of the Musketry Inspectors; but the Volunteers suffered greatly, in common with the Regular troops, from the want of suitable ranges for practice, and he wished to press this fact on the attention of the War Office authorities. With regard to the Volunteer decoration, he was very glad to see by that day's papers that the right hon. Gentleman, in response to an appeal, had slightly modified the existing rule. The entire Force would feel grateful for that concession, but he would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not carry it a little further. As the Rule now stood, no Volunteer would be entitled to the decoration who was not actually serving in the Force on the 1st of January, 1893. He knew many hundreds of men who had served in the Volunteers for more than 20 years continuously, and who would be entitled to the decoration but for this condition. The restriction was very severely felt, and he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it could not be dispensed with. A few days ago the right hon. Gentleman, he understood, said, in reply to a question, that the difficulty which he and his military advisers had in the matter was that no trustworthy Returns of service could be obtained.

In many cases.

continuing, said, that might be so, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman might get over that difficulty-at all events, in the great majority of cases. In the early days of the Force, when it was loosely controlled, Returns were not sent into the War Office, but he could say, speaking as a commanding officer, that it had been the practice for the last 25 years to send in full and complete Returns. If this further concession were granted it would gladden the hearts of many old Volunteers who had given their services to the country for more than 20 years, but who were now deprived of the decoration by the restriction referred to. With respect to the use of the Lee-Metford rifle, it had been suggested to him that when that rifle was served out, the short rifle manual should be abolished, and that the Volunteers should be drilled with the same manual as that used for the Regular Army. He thought the time for this change was fast approaching.

^* said, he begged to say a few words with the object of endorsing what had been said by the hon. Baronet respecting the Volunteer medal. The Statute for facilitating the acquisition of sites for barracks and ranges had not been taken advantage of sufficiently, and the Act ought to be amended so as to make it easier for Municipal Authorities to assist Volunteers in such matters. But the chief difficulty against which Volunteer corps had to contend was the growing dearth of officers. The primary cause of this dearth was the expenditure which a commission involved. Eligible young men were deterred from entering corps by the knowledge that they might have to become liable with their colleagues in respect of drillhalls, ranges, &c., for sums in excess of the liability which they felt justified in incurring. If the Volunteer Forces were really required for the defence of the country, officers and men ought to be relieved from those disbursements which they now had to make in connection with their military training. The State ought to provide all the means of attaining efficiency, including complete equipments and drill-halls and ranges. Allowances ought also to be given to both officers and men for camp expenditure. The payments made by the Government to the Volunteers engaged in submarine mining had greatly conduced to the efficiency of the corps, and that seemed to him to be a precedent which might be followed with advantage. One other point was that, Volunteer corps suffered distinct loss with regard to capitation in consequence of enlistments in the Army, and that loss ought to be made good to them in some way or other. Possibly some addition to the status of Volunteer officers would encourage young men to seek commissions. The question of uniform was not an important one in this connection, but a closer assimilation of the Volunteers with the Militia might be advantageous. He was of opinion that not only in the matter of uniform but in other things there might be a closer assimilation between the Volunteers and the Regular Forces, and that more service and greater efficiency should be required. This might be brought about under the present Volunteer conditions by having more afternoon or day drills than there were at present. It would be, in his opinion, right and advantageous to offer commissions in the Regular Army to Volunteer officers in the same way as they were offered to officers in the Militia; and he also thought the exemption from jury service might very well be granted to Volunteers as a return for the work they did for the State. Reference had been made to the desirability of having greater association of the Volunteers with the Regular Forces. He thought it was impossible to over-estimate the advantages that would follow from increased association of this kind. An illustration of the great benefits that were derived from this source was supplied by the efficiency attained by the Volunteer Submarine Miners through their continuous association with only very small detachments of the Coast Brigade of the Royal Engineers. The Submarine Mining Volunteers had received a capitation grant of £5, which was much in excess of the grant made to other Volunteers. If this increased grant had been the means of obtaining efficient service he thought the principle might very well be extended to other branches of the Volunteer Force.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

said, he was aware there was a Committee now sitting in connection with this question of the Volunteers, which was inquiring into the discipline and status of the Force, but he thought he was right in stating it was not inquiring into such questions as transport. He was bound to say he thought the Government ought to give a capitation grant to any regiment that could turn out a complete regimental transport, including horses, and he would like to press that upon the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. He could not speak, as other hon. Members had done, as a Volunteer, because he happened to belong to the Sister Service, the Yeomanry, but he took great interest in the Volunteers, and was one of those who, though not serving himself, was perfectly prepared to support with his purse the local corps, and therefore he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to see his way, if not this year, at some future time to give a capitation grant for the purpose he had mentioned. But there were one or two questions in regard to which some of his constituents who were Volunteers had grievances, the chief one of which was with regard to the new medal and long-service decoration. He had received complaints about the decoration and about the date at which those who were serving in the Force should be entitled to wear the decoration. But, in the first place, on behalf of those Volunteers who were interested in the question—and he believed all Volunteers were—he desired to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the concession he had already made in regard to the service being consecutive. Still, he could have wished that the concession had been extended and that there might have been a longer period than one year intervening in the time reckoned for the 20 years' service. For instance, it often happened that a man, on succeeding to his father's business, was unable to continue his Volunteer service for a year or two while he was making himself acquainted with the business, and afterwards was glad to return again to the service, and consequently an interval of two or three years would have met practically the whole of those cases. In connection with the Yeomanry he had known cases where a man on succeeding to his father's business was unable for the first two years to keep up his drills with the corps, but after becoming thoroughly acquainted with his business had returned, as it were, to his first love, his old corps. Many of these were their best men, were strong supporters of the Volunteer movement, and he thought they should be encouraged to return rather than discouraged by making them ineligible for the decoration, and that encouragement be given by allowing a longer interval than one year to elapse during the time they were with the colours. Another grievance had reference to the date of the completion of the 20 years' service in the Volunteer corps. He had had several letters on this subject, and in one company alone of a Volunteer regiment with which he was most familiar he heard there were seven men, having an average of 27 years' service and over, who had been cut out of the decoration. And he would like to point out that in some cases these men were compulsorily retired through age, and therefore the reason of their being cut out was not, so to speak, of their own free will, but purely owing to their compulsory retirement. One of his correspondents complained that the commissioned officers were placed in a better position than the non-commissioned officers and men; and stated that certain officers had been granted the medal whilst some of the non-commissioned officers and men who were equally entitled were left unrewarded. He would, therefore, strongly appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to see whether it would not be possible to get rid of the obnoxious clause—Clause 2—in the Army Order which fixed the date as the 1st January, 1893. He would also like to urge the cause of those he was specially pleading for, the noncommissioned officers and men, who in many instances had been the backbone of the movement, who, at a time when the Force was not so popular as it was now, when officers and men were not so easily obtained, had kept the Force going by their individual efforts. These men felt keenly being cut out from the wearing of this decoration, whilst their juniors who had not spent so much time in the service, or taken such trouble in regard to it, were eligible because in their case there had not been any break in their service. Many of these men he referred to would also, but for being compulsorily retired, still be officers in their corps. He trusted that by some means or other an exception might be made in favour of these men who had done so much for volunteering. He also urged upon the right hon. Gentleman there should not be one law for the officers and another for the non-commissioned officers and men, but that all should be treated upon an equal basis. This was a great grievance with those men who had been compulsorily retired previous to 1893, and he would impress upon the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of allowing these old men to wear the long-service medal. The expense of the few additional medals that would be required could not be much, and he hoped that would not be allowed to stand in the way. Then with regard to the keeping of the records, he thought it was rather hard Hues that regiments that had kept their records should have to suffer for those regiments in which records had not been kept. Would it not be possible for the Secretary of State for War to grant the medal decoration in cases where the records of the regiment were authentic, and not punish them for the neglect or perhaps indifference of those regiments and commanding officers who had not kept any records? There was very great feeling in the country on this matter, and some of these old men felt they had not been justly treated, and also that it was unfair there should be one law for the officers and another for the men.

^* did not think that the claims of the Volunteers ought to be designated by the serious word "grievance," as there were very few things to complain about at the present moment. The Volunteer movement had not been the plaything of Party, but had received the attention of those who were responsible for the defence of the country. The Force had become more serviceable year by year, and, knowing how difficult it must be to impose conditions upon the Volunteers which they would not be eager to accept, he thought the Government had done very wisely in rather following the views of the Volunteers themselves. It was now a very popular Force, though formerly it was not so; and he spoke as one who had belonged to it for 33 years, and had raised a brigade of artillery from 37 men to nearly 500 men. He knew they had grievances in the past, but at the present moment they were only trifling, and had only to be considered to be rectified. With regard to a break of a couple of years in the Service cutting a man out from the decoration, he thought that was rather hard upon the men. The proof of their title to the medal might be put upon the men, and unless that was satisfactory the medal would not be granted; and, as to records, he should hope that in every corps there were records kept from the very commencement of every man who had been enrolled, and therefore there should be no difficulty in accepting every one of these cases. He knew a volunteer who was in his corps, and who resigned because he was going to get married. He said to him, "Well, my dear fellow, after you have been married a little while, you will be glad of an excuse to come out and enjoy yourself," and, as a matter of fact, that was the case, and this man rejoined and continued most efficient. This break in the service ought not to prevent that man from being placed in an equal position with those who had served, perhaps, a less time, though their service had been continuous. He noticed that third-class fare was allowed to officers attending camp or first gun practice. He thought they should either allow a higher class fare or none at all. It seemed to be an indication that the officers were to travel in the same class as the men, which they knew very well they would not do, and which, he thought, would not be in accordance with good discipline. Officers and men drew their allowance for the first time they went down, but there were officers who had to go down a second and even a third time with men to complete the gun practice, but after the first time they went down they got no allowance. Then, again, officers in camp got their 2s. a day, but the whole of that was absorbed in the hire of furniture and other matters that could not be drawn from the stores. If they went on the supposition that all expenses were to be paid by the State, officers ought to have a larger allowance in consideration of not being able to draw camp furniture. Another point was that if a garrison artillery corps armament was changed to 16-pounder guns, the officers were allowed to go again to the School of Instruction at the expense of the country, but if the armament was changed to siege artillery they were not allowed to go again to the School of Instruction except at their own expense, and he could not see the reason for the distinction. But these were matters which he felt sure the War Office authorities would consider in a true and proper light.

^* desired, in the first place, to add all the force he could to the suggestion made by his hon. and gallant Friend as to the payment at an earlier period of a portion of the capitation grant. It was a great hardship upon the officers not to have money in hand to meet the expenses. The number of men to be provided for was known at the War Office shortly after the conclusion of the Volunteer year, and if as soon as this was known a proportion of the capitation grant was given it would be a very great boon to the officers in the administration of the corps. His hon. and gallant Friend said something about assimilating the uniform to that of the Militia. He was in a corps in which that had been done except in regard to the lace, and if a change from silver to gold lace was suggested that was a change which was one that he did not desire to advocate; he thought they might swagger quite sufficiently even without so much silver lace as they had now. There was one part of the full dress and parade uniform which he thought might well be dispensed with, and that was the cross-belt, which was used as a substitute for the sash worn by the officers of the Regular Army. He did not see why a sash of a sufficiently distinctive character should not be allowed to Volunteer officers. He deprecated the requiring adjutants of Volunteer battalions to assimilate their uniform to that of the Volunteer officers. One thing essential to the welfare of a Volunteer battalion was to have a good adjutant, and it might well be that an officer in every respect eligible for the post was led to decline to serve in the Volunteer Force because he was required to change his whole uniform. He asked that this question might be reconsidered. He desired also to support the claim to the long-service decoration of those who had served for 20 years continuously in the Volunteer Force, though they might have retired before the date fixed by the new Regulation. Many of those men were a most valuable element even in the present working of the Force in their several districts; and if the decoration was not conferred upon them, it would tend to discourage them in continuing to interest themselves in the Volunteer cause. He did not deny the advantage of brigade camps, although they involved a diminution of the time for instructing the battalion whilst in camp; but he said that if the present brigadier system was to be maintained, it would be desirable to reconsider its construction and see how far it was in harmony with the regimental system, and if it was not in harmony with the regimental system to see what charges ought to be adopted to bring about conformity. Again, if the brigade camp system was to be developed and encouraged, would it not be desirable to arrange to have a camp in which both artillery and infantry were brigaded together? If the Volunteers were to be brought up to that condition of efficiency that they would be fit to take their place in the field they ought to be put to drill not only alongside other battalions, but also in company with artillery, and, if possible, cavalry also. In connection with instruction in musketry he urged the desirability of arranging for the initial practice for recruits in musketry with small charges and at short ranges, which, he said, might be provided for in the barrack yards. Accurate shooting at very small marks should be taught. This would not require any expensive purchases of land for machinery or ranges, but it would only be necessary that the ammunition used should be suitable for short range shooting. Those who have given close attention to the subject were of opinion that the shooting of the Volunteers and of the Army generally could be very much improved if recruits were not allowed to go to the long ranges until they had learned to hit small objects at a short distance. He did not know what proportion of the engineer force to the artillery and infantry was arranged, but unless there was some reason which, on military grounds, made it desirable not to increase the Volunteer engineer force beyond a certain limit, he believed that a much larger and an extremely efficient corps might easily be obtained. There were in many parts of the country persons who were perfectly skilled or who would quickly become so, in all the field work of the engineers, and who would readily join a force of that kind in which they could make use of the knowledge they had acquired in the course of their daily avocations, and who would be glad to apply these qualifications to the service of their country if the War Office would allow some additional engineers to these corps. Very many Volunteer corps had efficient cyclist squads attached to them, and as there was some expense connected with forming cyclist detachments it might be well for the War Office to consider whether they could not give some slight additional allowance in the case of efficient cyclists.

^* had no intention of inflicting a long speech on the Committee, but desired to say a few words on the Volunteers, a service in which he had been interested for a number of years. He was a Member of the Committee which had sat to consider matters in connection with the Volunteer service, and he was somewhat hampered by the fact that that Committee had not yet reported on the subjects brought before it, and to which he should not, therefore, think it right to call attention in any way. He desired to join in the remarks of satisfaction made by his hon. and gallant Friend below him on the condition of the Volunteer Force. At the present moment not only had it increased in regard to numbers, but he spoke from personal experience when he said that the spirit which called the Volunteers into being existed as strongly as ever it did, and if the present numbers were not considered sufficient a very slight appeal would cause a large number more to flock to the service. But there was one dark cloud overhanging the Volunteer service, and that was the difficulty of obtaining officers. He need scarcely say that it was absolutely useless to have a large number of men unless they could command the services of efficient officers in suitable quantities. Many reasons had been given for this difficulty. Some had said it was because of the expense. That was not his experience at all. It was idle to say that the cost of the outfit of a Volunteer officer stood at all in the way of increasing the numbers. There were immense numbers of people in this country to whom the question of £40 and an expenditure of £10 a year was a mere bagatelle. Other reasons had been adduced for the difficulty, and it had been suggested that if they clothed the Volunteer officers in a particular simple garb they would have more gentlemen coming forward. He thought that would be a mistake. The only way in which the Volunteer service could be made attractive to what he might term the officer-bearing class was by increasing and maintaining, as far as possible, and improving its military status. That might be done in many ways. Some he did not feel able to refer to for the reason he stated just now; and there were others. He thought that unless they could bring home to the public generally that the Volunteers were not merely a number of excellently intentioned persons who had learned a certain amount of drill and the use of arms, and were considered meritorious and well deserving, but that they absolutely formed an integral and indispensable portion of the defensive force of the country and were a necessary part of Her Majesty's Army, he did not think they would greatly increase the number of officers. If they succeeded, however, in impressing this on the public mind he could not help thinking that there was sufficient patriotism among the officer-bearing class to come forward and do themselves the honour of accepting Her Majesty's Commission. Another way in which the desired result might be brought about was this. He thought that until the whole of the expense of the military training of the Volunteers was borne by the public, so long would it be difficult to impress the public mind with the fact that they were indispensable and necessary. His own feeling was that it was absolutely derogatory to the service that the public should be appealed to for subscriptions to pay for uniforms, greatcoats, accoutrements, drill-sheds, and rifle-butts. All these were necessary to military training, and as long as the Government did not provide them, the public would say to the Volunteers, "It is very kind of you to come forward, but really you are not wanted, and you ought to be thankful to us for doing as much for you as we do." On the other hand, he should like to express his gratitude to the Secretary of State for War—not only of this Government, from whom the Volunteers had received every consideration—and to his predecessors for what they had done for the Volunteers. He thought it was very desirable to encourage the attendance of officers at the Schools of Instruction, and both officers and men should also be encouraged to attend the exercises of the Regular Forces, particularly field exercise. It was of importance that the Volunteers should be brought into close contact with the Regulars, so that they might note their soldierly bearing. It was a mistake to ask Volunteer officers to travel third-class, not to pay for their chargers, or not to supply them with fodder for their horses—a small point, no doubt, but it was injurious to the service to neglect it. Then, he did not know why Volunteer officers when at school should be regarded as in a different position to their brother officers in the Militia. They were men of the same standard, and should be treated equally. He sympathised with what had been said about transport, which could be arranged for locally better than centrally, and at less cost. And as to uniform, whatever might be the best for the soldier, all troops, Regulars and Auxiliary, ought to be dressed in the same way. Why should Volunteers, who must necessarily be the less disciplined troops in a combined force, be marked out by their dress as the men who were the least capable of withstanding an attack? The uniforms of Regulars and Volunteers ought not to be distinguishable to an enemy; and whatever lace was considered necessary for an officer ought to be worn by all alike. The continued efficiency of Volunteers depended largely on a constant supply of good adjutants. If the existence of the Volunteer Force were a military necessity, there could not be a more important duty than the drilling of Volunteers. He did not know much about the infantry. He believed there was not much difficulty in getting a selection of good officers; but there was great difficulty in the Artillery. An adjutant of Volunteers who had to look after a good big regiment was thereby the better fitted for regular command, because he must have acquired a considerable amount of tact. However efficient a colonel of a regiment of Volunteers might be, it was impossible for him to go through the work which devolved upon an adjutant. As there was difficulty in getting good adjutants in the artillery, he would put it to the Secretary for War that it was worth considering whether greater attractions could not be held out so as to secure the services of the best men who were available. There was only one other matter upon which he wished to say a word, and that was as to the medal for non-commissioned officers and men. He hoped it would be found possible to give the medal to everyone who had actually served for 20 years. His experience in command went back 30 years, and he was able to speak most highly of the assistance he had received from noncommissioned officers from time to time. He had known many of these men who had worked hard in the interests of the service, and had devoted a great deal of their time and money to it, and he thought it would be a gracious recognition of their service if they were allowed to participate in the decoration whether they had retired or not, so long as they had served 20 years. He joined in the appeal to the Secretary of State to see if he could not do something in this matter. The Volunteers would always be ready to respond to whatever calls might be made upon them, and, on the other hand, he thought they should receive at the hands of Her Majesty's Government every consideration, which they deserved.

I think I may now make some reply to the observations which have been made, and, in the first place, as regards the point last adverted to by the hon, and gallant Member who has just sat down—namely, the long-service medal. Several hon. Members have told the House that they have received a greatnumber of representations with regard to the long-service medal, but that number will be nothing to the number that have reached me from all quarters. The matter is a simple one. When it was determined to institute the medal for non-commissioned officers and privates, it was not contemplated that it should be given except to those who were then serving, and that accounted for the fixing of what has been called au arbitrary date—the 1st January, 1893. It is said that that date is somewhat earlier than it ought to have been, but it has been chosen with a view to including the men serving at the time that the announcement was made. In considering the matter, it was in our minds that there might be a demand that the Volunteers who had served in previous years might be included amongst those eligible for the distinction. Let me say that I agree with what has been said by one or two hon. Members that among earlier Volunteers there may be those who almost deserve recognition in a higher degree than those who are now serving. Volunteers 20 or 30 years ago found their duties more arduous than did the Volunteers of the present day, who, although they no doubt have laborious duties to perform, find their paths easier than did their predecessors; but obviously if we were to go back behind the date named, we must go back to the very beginning of the force, and, according to the best of my information, there would be great difficulty in deciding applications which would be made in regard to the early period of the Volunteer movement. For instance, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Lewes admitted that, so far as control or clerical work went, he was nearly the whole regiment in himself. He was not only commanding officer, but orderly clerk and adjutant, and the whole organisation of the corps. In these early days in many corps there was a lack of records with regard to all except officers, whose claims, of course, are recorded in the Army List . There may be some corps that have complete records and others that have not, and that would lead to inequality as between men whose services and claims are equal. I am not one of those who thought that where a corps had kept its records well, it should have an advantage. Where two men had given equally good service it was hard on a man who, through no fault of his, because records had been lost, was deprived of the medal, while his comrade who had been in a better-conducted corps received it. But there has been disclosed a very strong desire that the older Volunteers should receive the long-service medal, and I will inquire whether the difficulties to which I have referred can be overcome, so that the distinction may be extended to all Volunteers who can show satisfactorily that they have given the requisite service. No doubt we shall be able, in some way or other, to overcome them. There remains the question of interruption of service. I have already made arrangements by which the hiatus in the period of service of not longer than a year will be allowed if it is due to a reasonable cause, such as change of employment or change of residence. I am not disposed to go further and admit a man who out of his own caprice has served for a year or two, and then has given it up, and, when it has suited him, again has taken it up once more. Subject to these conditions, I hope to be able to hit upon some way of overcoming the difficulties which presented themselves at the outset, and so to include older Volunteers among those whose services the Queen has been graciously pleased to approve by the institution of this medal. During the course of the Debate a very considerable number of questions have been put to me by various Members. It is impossible for me to reply to them seriatim , but I have carefully noted the principal points of the long category of subjects touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes, and as I believe they cover most of those that have been raised I shall single out the hon. Baronet as the special victim of my reply. My hon. Friend wishes that the Capitation Grant should be paid as soon as it is earned.

A proportion of it.

But it is now paid before it is earned. It is due on the 1st of April in respect of the coming year. It is not a payment of money earned in the past year, but a payment of the amount that will be due in the coming year, based on the figures of the past year. There is a clear distinction established. The payment is made somewhat on the principle of the Income Tax assessment. The Capitation Grant paid on the 1st of April one year is for the year then commencing, and not for the year then past. As they must, of course, have some figures to go on, they took the figures of the previous year as the scale for the coming year. Then the hon. Member turns to the question of the transport. He asks whether, where a transport corps is raised, some allowance cannot be made. There is a good deal of force in that, if the raising of these corps had been adopted as a general system. But that has never been the case. In isolated cases transport has been provided. The efforts made by certain corps in that direction are being watched, and, if they are successful, the desirability of instituting a general system will be considered. The hon. Member asked why a Volunteer regiment has to bear the loss of uniform in the case of a Volunteer enlisting in the Regular Army. We are glad to see Volunteers enlist, and I am glad to think that there is, though not a large, still an increasing, number who do so enlist, and it would be hard if the result of such enlistment was to impose serious loss on the corps. But as the corps receives capitation money in respect of each man if he has gone through his drills, I think that amount should be set off against any such loss that the corps may sustain. Then I come to the question of the dress of the Volunteers. It has been urged that the uniform of the Volunteers should be the same as that of the Regular Army. Personally, I agree with the hon. Member who last spoke. I consider that any glaring distinction in the dress of the different regiments is a mistake, and may be the cause of weakness in the case of an emergency. But, at the same time, it must be remembered that when the territorial system was introduced inducements were offered to the Volunteers to clothe themselves like the Regulars, and if they then preferred to retain their old uniforms the Government cannot be expected now to contract any expense in the matter. But I am entirely with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that it would have been a very desirable thing if the Volunteers had agreed to change their uniform when the territorial system was introduced. I have before now expressed my inability to understand the genesis of the brigadier, or what his amphibious duties consist of; but, without carrying the obvious attractiveness of the subject as a matter of joking further, I must say that I think the appointment of brigadiers has been a good thing. A number of projects under this head have come before me, some from outside and some from inside the War Office. There are those who think that there ought to be a complete war organisation for Volunteers—Volunteer from top to bottom, from Volunteer generals downwards. That is one extreme view. The other view is that the proper brigadier for a Volunteer brigade is the colonel of the district in which the brigade is situated. Between these two extremes we have the present somewhat anomalous arrangement, which must obviously drift into something different before long. The matter has occupied the best and most authoritative and experienced minds at the War Office for some time past, and I hope that before long some modification may be introduced that will remove the inconsistent and almost indefensible position of this officer and his organisation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the Musketry Regulations. It is intended to make some alterations in this matter, and I am bound to warn hon. Gentlemen, though without desiring to alarm them, that these changes will be in the direction of stiffening the test. I quite agree that in these things it is necessary to follow the Volunteers, and not to force them too hard; but I believe that they are very willing to submit to anything that will promote their efficiency and increase their fitness for service. I do not wish to frighten my hon. and gallant Friend into the idea that anything terrible is contemplated, but we do intend to make some changes, and these, as I have said, will be in the direction of increasing the test. Then, as to the dearth of officers, it is, no doubt, a great difficulty, but it is not greater now than it has been. No figures that I have seen lately show that the deficiency has increased, but it is undoubtedly a serious matter, whatever the cause may be—whether it is, as is sometimes said, the initial cost of the uniform, whether it be the chance of incurring expense in connection with the corps afterwards, or whether it be, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bristol said, the want of military stiffness, or whether it be the greater attraction of golf clubs, cricket clubs, and football clubs. Whatever the reason, the difficulty exists. One of the suggestions made is to increase the status of Volunteer officers. But I am not sure that that would have any effect, because they had to meet the same difficulty in the case of Militia regiments. The hon. and gallant Member for Woolwich said he thought the Volunteers have no real grievances, but that they have a few small complaints to make. He mentioned some of these in good temper and reasonableness, and I will look into them. The hon. Member for Preston made a very reasonable suggestion with regard to shooting—namely, that it should be allowed at short ranges with reduced charges in initial stages. I am glad to say that that is being tried, 20,000 rounds of the reduced charges having been issued as an experiment. I think now I have touched upon all the subjects referred to. I can only assure hon. and gallant Gentlemen who, on these matters, speak from their own experience, that I have taken note of all their suggestions, and will see that they are considered and decided upon with every desire to do everything in my power to increase the efficiency of the Volunteer Force.

said, he felt grateful for the concession the right hon. Gentleman had made in regard to bestowing the long-service medal upon Volunteers who might have left their corps before the date originally announced. With regard to uniform, he had not meant to suggest that all Volunteer corps should be forced to adopt the dress of the territorial regiments to which they were attached, but that an endeavour should be made to bring about uniformity when future changes were made. All antiquated badges should be done away with, and an assimilation made between the Volunteer and territorial regiments. He was glad the right hon. Gentleman had undertaken to consider the other points brought before him. The question of transport he regarded as important, and he could assure the Secretary for War that he would not ask for an allowance to be made unless the transport was efficient and satisfactory to the inspecting officer.

said, that if he rightly understood the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the provision of transport, it was this—that while he conceded the value of the suggestion made—that if an efficient transport was paraded it would be worthy of consideration whether it should not receive some allowance, he would at the same time prefer to wait until the system was more generally adopted before he considered the point of making a contingent allowance. He thought that if the right hon. Gentleman wished to develop the idea he should endeavour to help it on, and not wait until it had reached efficiency by its own spontaneous growth. On that point perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be willing to consider even more favourably the suggestion of his hon. Friend. On the whole matter of the Volunteer Force, as on all other subjects presented to them in the Estimates, hon. Members were bound to be critics—though he hoped not captious critics. He was delighted that there had been an increase in the number of the Volunteer Force, and that the allowance for the attendance of Volunteers at camps of instruction had been increased by no less than £10,000. And this brought him to a point on which he had had some correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman—in regard to these camps and enabling Volunteers to attend them. There was one cardinal point to be kept in view, and that was that every Volunteer Corps should have a chance of attending a brigade camp—not composed of Volunteers only, though he was not disposed to run those camps down—but composed essentially of Regulars, at all events every few years. The Volunteers should all have the chance of standing side by side with the Regulars, of seeing how discipline was conducted, and of learning how regular soldiers prepared for warfare. There were several Volunteer Corps—he himself could name more than one—which were anxious land willing to submit to that sort of training, and the only obstacle to the accomplishment of their desire was the old vulgar trouble of expense. It ought to be remembered that many of the Volunteer Corps and some of those who would most benefit by this additional training happened by local circumstances to be at a long distance from a camp of instruction of the Regular Forces, and that heavy cost must be incurred in attending such camp, the Government allowance not being sufficient. That cost at present must fall on the officers, and it was too much to subject them to such a heavy expense. He thought this was a question of essential importance which affected very closely the efficiency of the Volunteer Force. The right hon. Gentleman would, he thought, be in sympathy with him when he asked if there had been any development in the Volunteer Forces on the question of Mounted Infantry, because that branch of the Service he thought might be pushed with some advantage in the Volunteer system. That branch had about it something extremely attractive to the younger, keener, and more ardent spirits connected with the Forces—particularly to those who were really fond of the horse, and to whom soldiering came all the more pleasantly when it was combined with the use of the horse they loved and were accustomed to. The circumstances surrounding the training and exercising of mounted infantry were such as would induce many an old soldier to join a corps, if Mounted Infantry companies were attached. This branch of the Service, he took it, therefore, deserved as much encouragement as could be bestowed on the Volunteer movement. The question of the dearth of officers, which had been referred to by several hon. Gentlemen, and by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State himself, was a very serious difficulty. There seemed to be a serious difference in this respect in the case of the corps manned and officered in the big towns, and the corps manned and officered in the rural districts. The difficulty was more pressingly felt amongst the rural than amongst the urban corps. In the rural districts they had to depend for their officers—though he did not say they ought to—upon gentlemen who were not as a rule very wealthy or able to bear the cost which attached to the position. The rural Volunteer Corps generally found their centres, company by company, in the little rural towns. Those towns probably gave their name to the companies, and out of those towns the officers had to be found. It was a matter of common knowledge to people acquainted with rural life that in such towns there were not a large number of leisured or wealthy men. If the Government wished to induce the best class of officer to join these corps they ought to make the position as attractive to them as possible. It might be possible to make some concession in the matter of jury service, or to make some allowance for travelling expenses. Again, when they were out for their training it became a necessity, when in camp, for them to establish a mess. He would suggest that something might be done in the way of mess allowances when officers were obliged to constitute a mess, and they had to do so occasionally in order to maintain their position amongst the officers in other branches of the Service. Another suggestion he would make was that, when field officers were called upon to do duty at a distance, the cost of the conveyance of their chargers should be borne by the Government. Everything that could be done in this direction should be done, for the mounted officers of Volunteer Corps were not all of them in a position to keep horses for their own amusement and sport. The provision of a reliable charger was not always an easy thing for, a man who had not a large stable at his command; therefore, everything that could be done to minimise the cost to the officers in this direction would be most valuable. Then, it was suggested that the time had passed when the actual military necessities of a Volunteer should be found by private subscription. The provision of drill sheds should be made for the Volunteers at the public expense. At present the cap had to be sent round, and, as a rule, the first person to whom it was presented was the local Member of Parliament. No doubt Members could not spend their money on a more laudable object, still, the tax was a serious one, and one from which all well-wishers of the corps ought to be relieved. Another point was this: he supposed that nothing more interested Volunteer Corps than annual prize-shooting competitions that took place company by company and sometimes regiment by regiment. What happened then? The prizes all had to be found from local sources. He did not object to that, as he thought this was a matter in which the residents in a town could show their sympathy for and give support to the Volunteer movement. He was glad to think that the demand for subscriptions was, as a rule, generously responded to. But would it not be an extra inducement to the men if, in addition to the local prizes of a pound of tea, a barrel of beer, a bottle of whisky, a turkey, a fat pig, and all the other things which constituted the prize list, a special prize were sent down by the Secretary for War in his official capacity? To have such prizes would advance the general interest felt in the corps and bring it into closer relationship with the War Office and the Regular Forces, which was a thing they were all aiming at and seeking to accomplish.

asked whether it would be possible to increase engineers' establishments?

replied that they did not at present think of increasing that establishment.

said, that the Secretary for War had thrown a shell which had scattered his ideas to the winds when he said that the capitation grants given to the Volunteers were not for the year past, but for the year to come. When he (Mr. Sidebottom) joined the Volunteers he was under a different impression believing that the grant earned for the year was paid on the next following April 1. He was sure what the right hon. Gentleman had stated was not thoroughly understood by the commanding officers of Volunteer corps. One thing was certain—namely, the financial position of these corps was altered if the right hon. Gentleman's statement was true, for those corps which had considered themselves solvent up to now would know that they were totally insolvent. It would be impossible for many of them, should they come to be dissolved, to meet their liabilities. The right hon. Gentleman had said that Volunteers joining the Regular Army would be no loss to their corps, but that was erroneous, for the corps, instead of earning the capitation grant of 35s., would get nothing at all, and all the trouble and expense devoted to them would be thrown away. They all approved of Volunteers joining the Army. He thought it a good thing for the Army to be reinforced in that way, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that commanding officers of Volunteer corps would not give facilities for recruiting sergeants to go amongst their men if they knew that the result would be that they would be mulcted of the capitation grant in the case of the men enlisted. The right hon. Gentleman should give an undertaking that in these cases the capitation grant would not be lost to the corps. As to the causes which militated against young men joining the Force as officers he believed the initial difficulty with most corps was the question of expense, and he was confident that if the Government relieved the Volunteer officer of some of the necessary charges and expenses he had now to bear, the number of officers would soon be largely increased. An economical outfit could not be obtained for less than £30, and the annual expense was at least £15. No improvement in this matter could be looked for until these charges could be in some way reduced, particularly at the present time, when agriculture and trade were so depressed. Young men were less inclined than formerly to incur the necessary initial expense, especially as they could obtain amusement in the golf clubs, and in other ways that bad been mentioned, at much less cost and perhaps be more their own masters. He thought, therefore, that if something in the direction suggested by the hon. Member for Sussex were done it would have the effect of increasing the number of Volunteer officers. With regard to camps of instruction, he wished to point out that the cost to Volunteers in attending a regimental camp was much more than in attending a brigade camp. While the brigade camp might be more useful to field officers, the regimental camp was certainly far more useful in the way of instruction to the subaltern and the rank and file. Why a difference should be made in the allowances for attending the camps he could not understand, and he would suggest that the allowances for attending the regimental camp should be raised so as to be at least equal to those granted in the other case. He hoped the military authorities would favourably consider the various suggestions that had been offered for the improvement of the Force.

said that, with regard to the appeal made to the right hon. Gentleman as to the exemption of Volunteers from serving on juries, he thought the proposal was a good one. No doubt it would have the effect of bringing in more officers, but he would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should not deal with the officers alone in an isolated way. The Regulation should be a general one—to apply to all Volunteers.

said, the proposal was to exempt Volunteer officers from service on juries, otherwise there would be no inducement for the men to become officers.

hoped the right bon. Gentleman, in considering the question of exemption from service on juries, would draw a distinction between the demands of duty and absence on account of private interests.

^* asked the Secretary for War to take into favourable consideration the question of arming Volunteer brigades with the magazine rifle in those cases where existing arrangements afforded adequate means of practising with that weapon—where adequate range accommodation could be found. He believed that there were cases in which whole brigades, both in Scotland and in London, had ranges which admitted of practice with the magazine rifle, and seeing that these brigades were likely, on mobilisation for home defence, to serve with Regulars in the field, it appeared to him essential to take steps to arm them with a rifle of the 303 bore pending the general arming of the Volunteers, which, from the account given by the Secretary of State of existing range accommodation, would not be speedily concluded.

was sorry his suggestion last year for affording facilities to Volunteer officers for passing into the Regular Army in the same way as did Militia officers had not been very encouragingly received by the right hon. Gentleman, but he still hoped it would be considered, as he believed it would attract gentlemen to join the Force. Not only would it act as an inducement, but it would help to raise the tone and character of Volunteer officers, and would certainly be appreciated as a graceful act on the part of the right hon. Gentleman.

^* expressed regret at the present dearth of Volunteer officers, and observed that many married officers, who had done good service and wished to retire, refrained from doing so apprehending that their places might not be refilled. It was at the greatest pinch in some of the agricultural and manufacturing districts in the Midlands that officers were able to continue in the Force, but a sense of duty kept them there. This was a very important point, and deserved serious and immediate consideration. He also urged that assistance should be given by the Government to Volunteers who, in the case of isolated local companies, were compelled to travel long distances to their ranges. He could give one instance where Volunteers had to travel four and a-half miles to their range.

said, if the hon. Member would give particulars of the case he referred to, he would see whether an allowance could be made to the men. An allowance was made when Volunteers were compelled to go beyond a certain distance for instruction and practice in shooting. On the subject mentioned by the hon. Member for St. Pancras as to the inducements to be given to young men to take commissions in the Volunteer Force, he had an open mind, and the suggestion would not be forgotten. The question of exemption from jury service was now under the consideration of the Committee on the Volunteer Acts, and therefore he thought he ought to express no opinion upon it. With regard to the suggestion that the mess expenses of officers in camp should be met by extra allowances, he doubted whether that would be a popular change if no corresponding allowance was given to the men. Besides, it would be an innovation. At present a grant was given to a whole corps; nothing was given to the individual man. To give a special allowance to an officer in respect of his mess expenses would therefore be a novelty. The question of the hon. Member for the Guildford Division would, he thought, be dealt with more conveniently on the Vote for Stores. After the bombardment he had been subjected to last night in reference to the Militia, he was nervous about promising anything for fear other things might be asked for; but the case mentioned as to the want of range accommodation was exceptional. If the range accommodation for the whole force of every description were sufficient it would, no doubt, justify the speedy issue pf new rifles.

Vote agreed to.

3. Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £631,600, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Transport and Remounts, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1895."

asked for information as to the proportion of horses to men in cavalry regiments. It was quite clear that there were not a sufficient number of horses to mount the men. Some of the regiments were very short indeed of horses, and ought to be put on a better footing. The answer generally was that it was unnecessary to keep the cavalry on a war footing, but without giving a horse to every man the regiments might be properly equipped. He suggested that trials ought occasionally to be made of the reserve horses which in times of emergency would be used for transport purposes. There were 14,000 of these horses, mainly employed in drawing omnibuses and tramcars, and it was doubtful how they would behave when they were put to draw transport wagons amid the noise of bands and guns. Some steps should be taken to see whether we had really a useful reserve of 40,000 horses or whether it was merely a reserve on paper.

said that, though he did not speak with any personal authority on the question, he understood that the proportion of horses to men in cavalry regiments was not at all in an unsatisfactory position. In the regiments first for foreign service there were 682 men of all ranks and 410 horses. That was considered to be the proper complement. Every one, he believed, who was acquainted with the economy of cavalry regiments agreed that there were always a large number of dismounted men engaged in duties which did not involve riding. With regard to the training of "ear-marked" horses, he said it was not considered to be a serious matter that such horses should not be trained. In every Army there was a large number of horses which had no previous military training.

referred to the recent extension of the policy which had taken place of conveying troops round the coast by sea instead of sending them by rail. Last year the King's Own Borderers were sent from Chatham to Hull by sea in the Assistance , and were then, marched to York in midwinter. This policy involved a considerable waste of money as well as of time. He had spoken to naval officers on the subject, and they had absolutely condemned this policy. Without committing himself on the matter one way or the other, he would be glad of any information the right hon. Gentleman could give about it.

said, the question had been looked into some time ago, though he did not remember the circumstance just referred to. The sending of troops by sea should be avoided in bad weather and reduced to a minimum. The question of fitness of vessels for the purpose and the accommodation they afforded should also be considered. With regard to sending a regiment to Hull, he would look into the subject. The War Office wished to avoid these occurrences as much as possible.

said, this case was worse than the hon. Member had made it, because the troops had been sent by sea in very bad weather. The regiment was removed from Plymouth, not Chatham, to Hull by sea, and then they were marched to York. Sea transport ought only to be undertaken when absolutely necessary, such as the passage from England to Ireland. The Assistance was a disgrace to the Service as a troopship. There was no sleeping accommodation for either the non-commissioned officers or the men, and if the vessel belonged to a private owner it would not be allowed to carry steerage passengers at all. The men even did not like to use their blankets on deck on account of the heavy damages they might have to pay. Questions had been asked in Parliament about it time after time, but the Government still went on employing this wretched old tub. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider how far it would be possible to reduce this Transport Vote by a wise economy. It was difficult to see why such constant changes of station were made unless on account of the unfitness of the barracks for troops to remain in them long at a time. He suggested that troops might be marched a great deal more than they were from station to station instead of being constantly carried by train. The War Office was throwing away a great opportunity in not marching troops in these circumstances through the rural villages with the object of securing recruits. It was a serious evil that the recruits for the Army were being more and more drawn from the large towns, where the men obtained were not of such good physique.

said, with regard to conveyance of troops by sea, he had made a passage in the Assistance , and could confirm what had been said about the vessel. The officers' accommodation was good, but the accommodation for the men was simply shameful. Nothing had been done to improve her for the last 10 or 12 years, and it was time that the Assistance was superseded by a vessel of a better class.

also entered a protest with reference to the accommodation for the men on board the Assistance . He asked the right hon. Gentleman to inform the House what means of inspection were provided of the quality and condition of the registered reserve horses, and who was responsible for the inspection? Though he agreed generally in the view that troops should be marched more frequently through the villages, he pointed out that the question of despatching troops by rail from time to time was a necessary part of their training.

repeated he had no recollection of the case which had been referred to on board the Assistance . He remembered the case where the vessel took a battalion from Scotland to Dover in distressing circumstances and when a Committee of Inquiry was appointed. Hon. Members, however, should remember that the ship was under the control of the Admiralty. She had been certified as a most useful ship for coast purposes, and, as he had before stated, she would only be sent to sea in good weather. He quite agreed with hon. Members opposite in thinking that a voyage in such a vessel in stormy weather was a thing which soldiers ought not to be subjected to, and he would inquire further into the matter. There was a great deal in what the hon. Member said as to the movement of troops, and the matter should be looked into. He hoped the most common-sense solution would be arrived at. In regard to the inspection of horses, this took place periodically, and satisfied the War Office that the horses were in good condition.

^* said, that as to the training of reserve horses to ensure their usefulness on active service, he thought the necessity for that had been somewhat overstated by his hon. and gallant Friend, for they had high authority for the belief that while the transport horses now employed in omnibuses and trams would be in excellent condition for the work assigned to them, the horses registered by Masters of Hounds and others for cavalry service would, after a very short training, be fit to be placed in line with trained animals. If these authorities, like the hon. and gallant General behind him, were relied upon, they need not trouble about training them. He wished, however, to particularly refer to the subject of billeting, and to remind the Secretary of State for War of his former promise to provide some sort of rest houses for cavalry when moving from one place to another. He mentioned the point again now as his constituents were very much interested id the subject and had made frequent representations to him. Indeed, two of the towns in the division he represented were the places chiefly affected by over-billeting, because at all periods of the year troops were passing through them.

said, he wished to strongly advise the Secretary of State for War not to be beguiled by any Admiralty officials in regard to the Assistance , as those persons seemed to be of opinion that anything was good enough for a soldier. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to test the vessel let him go to sea in her in a good strong equinoxial gale.

Or send the Secretary to the Admiralty.

said, that that would be much better still, especially if the Secretary were accompanied by the First Lord of the Admiralty. If they came back he would he very glad to see them again. They were paying £325,000 this year for doing for the Army that which it ought to do for itself. Surely one of the most important things in the training of the Army was its movement from place to place. Why should they not use their horses and their feet instead of having recourse to more expensive methods of transport? That admirable vessel, the Assistance , cost them no less than £10,000 a year for coast purposes, whereas the vessels which took the troops to India cost little more than double that. He thought the system of relying on hired transports and giving up the troopers was bad, and he saw no reason why the War Office should not increase, rather than diminish, the use of Her Majesty's troopships, which formed a most useful reserve. He had before him a statement showing the relative cost of taking troops to India in Government vessels and in hired transports, and he found that in the former case it was £9 and in the latter it ranged from £10 to £14.

The cost of conveying soldiers to India is paid by India, and does not come out of this Vote.

said, that might be so, but a comparison that was good for India was equally applicable to the cost of transport to other places to which we sent troops; and he must repeat that if the Government had their own ships for the work, those ships, manned as they would be by naval officers and men, would constitute a valuable reserve. This matter deserved the attention of the Secretary for War, who was, he believed, the superior officer of the First Lord of the Admiralty. [Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN dissented.] At any rate, the First Lord had to apply to him for honours for the Navy. It was very unfortunate that Imperial ships should be used less and less for transport, and that hired vessels should be more and more resorted to. He noticed in the Estimates that chaplains cost £1,100 a year for their journeyings, while the veterinary surgeons only cost £870 for conveyance. It seemed to him, however, that the latter were at least as important an adjunct to a cavalry regiment as the former, and if he belonged to the cavalry he would prefer to leave the chaplain behind and take the veterinary surgeon. Why when the regiment moved could not the chaplain be left behind? Surely each regiment had not its own particular orthodoxy professed by its own particular chaplain. One chaplain must be assumed to be as good as another in the Service for the purpose of teaching spiritual dogma, and no regiment ought to fear trusting itself to a particular chaplain, lest it should imbibe erroneous opinions. £1,100 a year seemed to him to be a large sum for taking theology about the country. He recommended these matters to the serious attention of the right hon. Gentleman, and again advised him not to believe too implicitly in Admiralty statements.

said, the hon. Gentleman was continually recommending matters to his serious consideration, but what he had said as to the chaplains was surely not to be taken seriously. At one time he believed there was a chaplain to each regiment, but now that was no longer so; chaplains were in the nature of staff officers, they had to move about from one station to another, and hence that item in the Estimates. In discussing the question of troopships under this Vote they must exclude the Indian troopers, which were worn out and were replaced temporarily by hired transports pending the decision of the Admiralty and the War Office as to future arrangements. Dealing with the question of transport within European waters, he was disposed to agree with the hon. Member, that it was desirable to have a certain amount of transport accommodation of their own, though they might of course have to resort to hiring on occasions. As to billeting, he had stated the other day that he had endeavoured to vary the routes as much as possible, and to spare those places which had complained of excessive billeting. Only at Exeter, however, had they been able to establish a camp of rest, and the great difficulty had been in obtaining ground for such camps.

said, he understood they had a distinct promise that this was the last time the Assistance should appear in this Vote. This vessel cost something like £10,000 a year. In the interests of soldiers he must press for some assurance on the point. The complaints about her had been made for many years. She was not the kind of ship in which troops ought to be put; and yet she had been at sea in stormy weather for four or five days, with troops on board bound from Plymouth to Hull, although she had not accommodation even for seasonable weather. Naturally the Admiralty did not wish to lose the £4,500 received annually from the War Department for the use of the ship, and consequently their statements on the point must be looked on with suspicion. The time had come to protest against the continued use of the vessel, and, therefore, with the object of obtaining a satisfactory statement he would move the reduction of the Vote by £1,000. He wished to add a word about the Army Service Corps. He was told that the work of the transport companies was work that any ordinary civilian could do; that very little training was required; and that at any time it would be easy to obtain as many competent men as might be required. Yet they were giving as much pay to two drivers as they gave to three privates in the Army. It would be an economy if the whole work were done by contract in time of peace. He moved the reduction of the Vote.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £630,100, be granted for the said Service."—( Mr. Hanbury .)

believed it to be important that the people should see as much of the troops as possible. Unfortunately, they never saw them at Hull except in the case of a strike; but he was in Hull at the time a certain regiment embarked there in the Assistance , and in view of the excitement and interest created by the event he was convinced of the desirability, in the interests of the Army itself, that the soldiers should march through our towns and villages as much as possible. As to the Assistance , they were told that it was not over safe, and that it was dangerous for it to undertake winter voyages. Whatever was the country coming to? We were daily sending out iron ships heavily laden with passengers and cargo making voyages to all parts of the world, and yet it was said that one of Her Majesty's troopships could not safely go from Plymouth to Hull and back. He could not agree with the statement that the Assistance was unsafe. He remembered seeing troops embark for the Crimea, and he could tell the House that they had then to travel in much inferior ships. This system of conveying troops had been too little used, and he trusted it would be continued in spite of the protest that had been made. He, for one, could not support the Motion for the reduction of the Vote.

said, he had already explained that he was not personally cognizant of the circumstances under which the arrangements were made for sending the troops by the Assistance ; and, with every disposition to prevent anything like improper transport by a vessel lacking in proper accommodation, he could not at once give a pledge in a matter involving inquiry in more than one department.

said, the right hon. Gentleman was always anxious to meet them in a fair spirit, and he was always willing to show his gratitude for such treatment. He would, therefore, in view of the assurances given him, not press his Amendment to a Division. But he would like to say in reply to the hon. Member for Hull, said it was not so much a question of safety as of want of proper accommodation, for if the hon. Member owned a vessel of the kind he would not be allowed to put steerage passengers into it; and our troops suffered by being sent long voyages in mid-winter in this wretched boat. It was simply ridiculous to suggest that because the people of Hull liked to see them, soldiers should be sent long voyages in wintry weather, in a wretched boat of this character. He agreed that the troops should be seen in as many towns and villages as possible; but even at the risk of disappointing the people of Hull, he was inclined to stop the Assistance even going there again.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Army Estimates, 1894–5

1. "That a sum, not exceeding £290,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, &c., of the Medical Establishment, and the Cost of Medicines, &c., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1895."

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £600,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay and Allowances (exclusive of Supplies, Clothing, &c.) of the Militia (to a number not exceeding 135,743, including 30,000 Militia Reserve), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1895."

Resolutions agreed to.

said, he should like to know when the Government Amendments to the Finance Bill would be placed on the Paper?

I recognise the desirability of making the Amendments public as soon as possible, and I will communicate with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the matter.

I think we are entitled to see them to-morrow.

I will communicate with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have no doubt they will be ready tomorrow.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Six o'clock.