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Commons Chamber

Volume 34: debated on Monday 24 June 1895

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House Of Commons

Monday, 24th June 1895.

The House met at Ten minutes after Three of the Clock.

Provisional Order Bills

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) BILL, and

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.

As amended, considered; read 3°, and passed.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No 10) Bill

Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

City Church Funds

Return [presented 21st June] to be printed.—[No. 316.]

Royal Observatory (Edinburgh)

Copy presented,—of Fifth Annual Report of Astronomer Royal for Scotland (1895) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Diseases Of Animals Act, 1894

Copy presented,—of Order of the Lords Justices and Privy Council in Ireland, dated 17th June 1895, relating to the landing of Foreign Animals in Ireland [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Out-Door Relief (Specified Counties)

Return presented,—relative thereto [ordered 7th March; Sir Theodore fry]; to lie upon the Table.

Wines Imported

Return presented,—relative thereto (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 96, of Session 1894) [ordered 20th May; Sir Frederick Seager Hunt]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 317.]

East India (Accounts And Estimates, 1895–6)

Copy presented,—of Explanatory Memorandum by the Secretary of State for India [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

East India (Cantonment Acts)

Return presented,—relative thereto [Address (6th May; Mr. Stansfeld]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.— [No. 318.]

East India (Income And Expenditure)

Return presented,—relative thereto [Address 13th June; Mr. Secretary Fowler]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 319.]

Fatal Accidents Inquiry (Scotland) Bill

Reported from the Standing Committee (Scotland);

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 320.]

Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee to be printed.—[No. 320.]

Bill, as amended by the Standing Committee, to be taken into consideration upon Thursday, and to be printed.—[Bill 323.]

Resignation Of Ministers

who rose amid loud cheers shortly before half-past Three o'clock, said: Mr. Speaker, it is my duty, before questions, to make an announcement to the House, because I think that that announcement will show that questions for to-day should be deferred. The Division of last Friday night upon the Army Vote for the War Office was, in fact, a direct Vote of Censure upon the Secretary of State for the War Department—[cheers]—than whom I will take on me to say no more able, more respected, or more popular Minister ever filled that great post. [Loud and general cheers.] I need hardly say that the Government absolutely associated and identify themselves with the responsibility of my right hon. Friend and his Army administration. [Cheers.] The course thus taken by responsible Gentlemen opposite has disabled the Secretary of State from proceeding with the Army Estimates, and has made it practically impossible for the executive Government to obtain those Votes of Supply which are necessary for the public service of the country. The Cabinet, therefore, have found it their duty, through the Prime Minister, to tender to the Queen their resignation of office, and that resignation has been accepted by Her Majesty. The Government accordingly only hold office until their successors are appointed. Under these circumstances I should, according to usual precedent, have moved the adjournment of the House so that no ordinary business could be transacted until the appointment of our successors, who will be responsible for the conduct of affairs. But, Sir, there happens to be on the Paper one Bill which it is indispensable should be passed and receive the Royal Assent before the end of the present week; I refer to the Seal Fisheries Bill. I shall propose, therefore, to proceed with that Bill, and that Bill alone, to-day, postponing all other Orders of the Day, and when it is disposed of, then to move the adjournment of the House. This is a course which has previously been pursued in the year 1886 and in the year 1885, when, during an interregnum like the present indispensable business was transacted. I shall, therefore, propose to postpone the first Order of the Day, which is Supply; and then I should hope that we shall be able to take the Committee on the Seal Fisheries Bill, and if it passes, as I hope, through Committee without Amendment, then it will be read a third time and sent to the House of Lords. Well, Sir, that is all that is necessary or proper that I should say upon the present occasion on the business of this House. Before I sit down I hope I may be permitted to say a few further words before I leave this place. In quitting office I relinquish also a position which I have always regarded as one of greater responsibility and higher obligation even than any office under the Crown. [General cheers.] It has always been my aim, unequal as I have felt myself to the task—[Opposition cries of "No!"]—to maintain the ancient dignity and the great traditions—[Opposition cheers]—of this famous Assembly. In that arduous duty, under circumstances of no ordinary difficulty, I have received great and necessary assistance. I desire to tender to the Gentlemen with whom I have the honour to act my grateful thanks for the constant, the unfailing, and the generous support which I have received from them in the duty which has been devolved upon me. I desire also to acknowledge the courtesy which I have invariably received from my political opponents—[Opposition cheers] —and, Sir, if it be not too presumptuous to adopt the words of one of my most illustrious predecessors, I would ask leave to say that for every man who has spent his life in the noble arena of Parliamentary conflict, the chiefest ambition must always, whether in the majority or in the minority, be to stand well with the House of Commons. [General cheers.]

who was received with loud Opposition cheers, said: Sir, everybody, on whichever side of the House he may sit, will have heard with sympathy and emotion the touching words with which the right hon. Gentleman concluded his speech. ["Hear, hear!"] Whether or not it is to be really, for the moment, the termination of the responsible office which he has held with so much dignity for more than two years I know not. But whether it be so, or whether the right hon. Gentleman is destined to continue the duties he has hitherto so worthily sustained, all must feel that, so far as his glance is backwards, so far as he has made a retrospective survey of the work he has done in this House, he has not appealed to us who sit on this side of the House, still less to those who sit on the other, he has not appealed in vain for our sympathy and for our approval of the object which he has always had in view as a Parliamentary leader. Whatever we may think of the policy of the Government which he leads in this House, we all recognise the right hon. Gentleman as one of the greatest ornaments of this Assembly [cheers], and as one who has ever had the dignity of this Assembly in view. Sir, you will not, I hope, think I am travelling into unnecessary criticisms when I say that, while I recognise that the Government are the best judges of whether they can or cannot properly under the existing circumstances continue to be responsible for public affairs, while I have no title to criticise the interpretation they have put upon the Vote of last Friday, I should have thought that, taking the view they do, the proper and constitutional course for them to have adopted would have been to advise Her Majesty to dissolve Parliament. [Loud Opposition Cheers.] It must be admitted by all that for a Government in the position of that of which the right hon. Gentleman is a Member to resign is practically equiva- lent to a determination to put the burden of Office upon the Opposition. [Ministerial Cheers.] But the present Opposition have been themselves the subject of a deliberate and successful Vote of Censure by this House of Commons. In August, 1892, the Gentlemen who sit upon this Bench, all of them Members of the previous Administration, were made the subject of a Vote of Censure proposed by the present Home Secretary, which Vote of Censure was carried by a substantial majority. So that what in effect the right hon. Gentleman appears to desire is that those whose policy has already been deliberately censured by this House of Parliament should never theless endeavour to wind up the business of the Session. Sir, I do not think that is in accordance with the best constitutional traditions ["Hear, hear!"] and I greatly regret that the Government have adopted the course which they have adopted on the present occasion. That, Sir, I think, is all that is necessary for me to say upon the present crisis. The right hon. Gentleman has made allusion to one particular Bill which, he says, must pass into law in accordance with international obligations. Well, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman speaks upon that subject with authority, and I have no doubt that the Bill will pass without any great difficulty in the course of this evening. I do not criticise, therefore, the departure from ordinary practice which has induced the right hon. Gentleman to except that Bill from the general proscription which he has made against business, whether it be public or private. For whatever may be the issue of the present crisis, of which I myself venture to make no forecast, it is evident that that Bill, at all events, ought to pass into law without unnecessary delay. [Cheers.]

Seal, Fisheries (North Pacific) Bill

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs if, in order to expedite the discussion of the clauses of this Bill, he would state, first, what were the terms of the existing agreement, if any, with Russia upon this subject; secondly, what were the terms of the complaints which had been made by the Canadian Government; and, thirdly, what were the terms of the agreement, if any, between the United States and Russia. He had an Amendment upon the Paper, but if the hon. Baronet's answer was satisfactory he should not move it.

said, that he also had several Amendments to propose, which, however, he would not press if they obtained an answer to the points mentioned by his hon. Friend.

said, he would leave his hon. Friend, Mr. Buxton, to answer the question with regard to Canada. The agreement with Russia had simply been renewed by an exchange of notes between the two Governments. The agreement entered into between the United States and Russia was exactly similar in character, and it would be embodied in the Blue-book, which would be issued with the least possible delay. He hoped those two points would be regarded as satisfactory.

said, there had been a great deal of correspondence between the Colonial Office and the Canadian Government with the view of coming to an agreement, arid he thought he might say that on the whole the objections made by Canada had been satisfactorily met. There were three points raised with regard to the Bill. The first objection was that the old Bill did not make the owner as well as the master liable where a ship was properly condemned, and it seemed to the Colonial Office that in many cases it would be idle for any damage that might accrue to make only the master liable, for in not a few instances the master would have no interest in the ship, and might be only a man of straw. He did not know, however, that the Canadians wished to press this point very strongly. On the two other points they had been able to meet the objections raised. The Canadian Government objected, and rightly so, to the power of searching vessels wholly on suspicion and without reasonable means of knowing that they had evaded the law. By the new Bill, as it now stood, it would be seen that no vessel could be seined unless the officer of the naval service had reasonable cause to believe that she had committed some illegality, and this fully covered the objection. The third point to which Canada objected was the clause in the old Bill, which threw on the owner and master the onus of proof that a ship found in the prohibited area with sealing implements on board, was not there for an illegal purpose. That clause had been struck out and was not inserted in the present Bill, and the onus of proof would henceforth rest, not on the owner or master, but on those who seized the vessel. ["Hear, hear!"] Those objections having been met, he believed the Bill would have the substantial support of the Canadian Government. ["Hear, hear!"]

said, he thought the points with regard to the agreements with Russia and the United States had been thoroughly met. If the Government would accept his last Amendment and consent to set forth in the Schedule of the Bill, as was done with the Bills of 1893 and 1894, the sections of the Merchant Shipping Act which were made applicable to this measure, he should be prepared, under the exceptional circumstances in which they were then placed, to withdraw all the Amendments to the Bill of which he had given notice. In order that those who would be affected by the Bill might clearly understand it, it was necessary that the sections referred to should be fully set out in the Schedule. It would relieve the Bill of the charge that otherwise it was legislation by allusion.

said, the point was fully considered by the Government when the Bill was drawn up, and they came to the conclusion that the object which the hon. Member had in view would be best met if, instead of adding the schedule to the Bill, the captain of the sealer, when he was supplied with a copy of the Act, should have added to it a short statement of the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act (1894).

said he would advise his hon. Friend to accept the statement of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, though he approved of the sections of the Merchant Shipping Act applying to the Bill being scheduled in it. The question was a practical one, and, perhaps, on reconsidering the matter, the Govern- ment might consent to the schedule being inserted by the Lords.

Mr. Chairman, I rise to move that you do now report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. [Laughter and cries of "Order."] Seeing that the Irish Land Bill is not to be proceeded with, I do not see why the Seal Fisheries Bill should be taken. [Loud cries of "Order."]

said, that before the Bill went up to the House of Lords, the Government would reconsider the joint whether it would be advisable to insert a schedule of the sections of the Merchant Shipping Act, though he doubted that it would be done.

said, he still thought the schedule ought to form part of the Bill. But in view of the crisis that had arisen in the business of the country, he should not, under the circumstances, move the Amendments of which he had given notice.

Bill passed through Committee, and Reported without Amendment.

Bill read 3°, and passed.

Adjournment

Mr. H. H. ASQUITH (Fife, E.) , moved "That this House do now adjourn."

Until to-morrow. It is a matter of arrangement between the two sides of the House that the House should adjourn now until tomorrow, when all Committees and other bodies will meet in the ordinary way.

asked, whether the Committees would sit on Wednesday?

It may be for somebody else to dispose of the Business on Wednesday. [Laughter.]

said, he wished to ask Mr. Speaker whether, when a Member rose in Committee to raise an objection, it was casting any reflection on the Chair or on the Chairman of Committees?

Question "That this House do now adjourn" put, and agreed to.

House adjourned at Four o'clock.