I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Measure making further provision for the amalgamation of poor law unions in Ireland?

Yes, Sir, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by me to questions in this matter on the 20th and 24th February.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can say when the scheme affecting the pay and status of warrant officers will be printed?

The new scheme has been promulgated to the Fleet by a printed circular letter, dated the 12th March; I have directed a copy to be sent to the hon. Member.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state what was the number of shipments of butter inspected at the ports during the month of February, and the percentage found to be adulterated?

One hundred and seventy samples of imported butter were taken during February, of which 15, or 8·8 per cent., were found to be adulterated.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether scarlet fever has been prevalent in the Forest Gate Poor Law School during the last year, and how many children have been affected thereby; and whether diphtheria or ophthalmia have been rife during the same period in other poor law schools?

Scarlet fever has been prevalent in the Forest Gate School since August 1895. Seventy cases occurred during the last five months of 1895. It was an extremely mild type, and many of the cases were so slight that their nature was difficult to recognise. I am glad to be able to state that there was no death from the disease. There were 23 cases of diphtheria in 1895 in the Poor Law Schools of the Metropolitan district. Dr. Downes, the Inspector of the Board, states that so far as he can judge from the best available data, diphtheria during 1895, was about three times more rife among metropolitan children of school age not resident in Poor Law Schools than it was among the children resident in such schools. According to a Return made in the present month, there was 641 cases of ophthalmia, under treatment or observation in Metropolitan Poor Law Schools. The number for the corresponding period of 1895 was 709. Dr. Downes informs me that the cases were chiefly those of catarrhal ophthalmia or granular lids, and that he is not aware that there was any outbreak of the more serious form of purulent ophthalmia during the year.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, when the rule limiting the prepayment of a telegraphic reply to 2s. was promulgated; and, would any injury result to the Telegraphic Department by the introduction of a rule allowing 10s., in place of 2s., being prepaid for a reply telegram; if not, whether he will permit the public to prepay replies by telegraph to an increased amount above that now fixed.

as representing the Postmaster General, said: The rule limiting the payment of a reply telegram to 2s. was published in the London Gazette of September 22, 1885. It was found that reply telegrams were being largely used for the free transmission of money by telegraph. A man wishing to back a horse, for instance, sent a reply-paid telegram to a bookmaker asking him to back the horse for the amount of the reply paid. He would send a sovereign by prepaying his reply to that extent, and tell the bookmaker to back the horse for that amount. The Post Office endeavoured to check this abuse by limiting the amount of the reply. Then it was found that money was still being largely transmitted to tipsters in small amounts, and after a race meeting the Post Office sometimes had to pay to a single tipster as much as £100. This abuse, it was thought, could be stopped by saying the Post Office would refund the sender only and not to the addressee. But then it was also found that so many telegrams are sent from racecourses that the tipster finds no difficulty in disposing of his reply-paid forms for cash to friends who want to send telegrams, and that people thus, practically, still are able to make the reply-paid telegrams a medium for the free transmission of money by telegraph. It should be recollected also that these reply telegrams, or rather the recovery of the money paid for them involves a great deal of labour and expense to the Post Office in correspondence, forms, etc.; and the Post Office is therefore anxious to limit this expense as far as possible by not increasing the number of telegrams on which a demand will be made for repaying the money paid on them. I have already stated in the House that the Postmaster General is not aware that inconvenience has arisen from the present restriction. If any per-persons have suffered inconvenience it is, of course, open to them to make a representation to the Department on the subject.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, whether, seeing that in an official letter, dated 14th September 1895, and addressed to Lieutenant-Colonel Coubrough, he stated that there was already a loss on all the halfpenny business of the Post Office, and that it would of course increase the loss to sell post-cards for the value of the stamp only, he will permit private companies to undertake the collection and delivery of halfpenny matter, including post-cards and circulars, without requiring royalty, licence duty, or other payment from the companies concerned.

To the first part of the hon. Member's Question the answer is in the affirmative. The statement in question was in accordance with the the report of the Select Committee of this House which was appointed to examine into the Estimates of the Revenue Departments in July 1888, and upon which the hon. Member himself served. As regards the second portion, the Postmaster-General is not prepared to permit private companies to undertake the collection and delivery of post-cards, circulars, and other articles sent at the halfpenny rate of postage. To do so would be to allow such Companies to appropriate all the local business, which is probably the only remunerative part, and to leave to the Department the delivery over long distances, which is the main cause of the present loss.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the construction of the proposed graving dock at Colombo has been decided upon, and when a commencement will be made?

The question is still under consideration, and it is hoped that a decision may be shortly arrived at.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if the propriety of a contribution to the construction of a graving dock at Colombo has been considered, and with what result?

The subject has been considered by a Committee of Colonial Office and Admiralty officers, whose Report has just been received.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, (1) if any Roman Catholic gentlemen were summoned by the High Sheriff to serve on the County Donegal Grand Jury at the recent Spring Assizes; (2) whether he is aware that 70 per cent. of the county cess of Donegal is paid by Roman Catholics, and that there are numbers of eligible Catholic gentlemen in all respects competent to serve if summoned; and (3) whether he can take any steps to secure due representation of Roman Catholics on Grand Juries?

I have no information to enable me to reply to the first and second paragraphs. The qualifications of Grand Jurors are fixed by Statute, and the Executive Government has no voice or control in the selection of gentlemen to serve in that capacity. There are no religious disabilities attaching to membership of Grand Juries, and I do not think it would be desirable to alter the law so as to make religious opinions a qualification for membership.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether the compulsory Education Act of 1892, although formerly adopted by the Town Commissioners of Blackrock, county Dublin, over two years ago, cannot be carried into full operation owing to the refusal of the Town Commissioners to vote any of the funds required by the school attendance committee; (2) whether said refusal is based upon an opinion of the Town Commissioners' counsel to the effect that the attendance committee is not legally constituted, owing to the irregularity on the part of the National Education Board in the method of appointing the committee: (3) whether the official law adviser of the National Education Board holds that the committee is legally constituted: (4) whether, owing to this difference of legal opinion, the Town Commissioners still hesitate to vote the funds, although expressing themselves desirous of having the provisions of the Act enforced to their township; (5) whether the school attendance committee's officers in Black-rock have been working for more than two years past without pay; and (6) whether the National Education Board, whose action is questioned on legal grounds, will take steps to have the legal doubt authoritatively removed or, failing this, whether the Government in their promised Bill to amend the Act of 1892 will make provision for legalising, where necessary, such school attendance committees, and paying such of the committees' officers as may be in the same position as are the committee and its officers in Blackrock, county Dublin?

The Town Commissioners of Blackrock refuse to pay the expenses of the School Attendance Committee on the ground that the provisions of the Act of 1892, as regards the constitution of the Committee have not been complied with. The replies to the second, third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs are all in the affirmative. As to the last paragraph, I do not think it would be possible for the National Board, under the circumstances, to obtain the decision of a Court of Law on the point at issue, and this being so I do not see what they can do beyond what they have already done. The matter is one that would naturally be dealt with by any Amending Bill.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—(1) if he could state to the House how many hackney sires were in the possession of the Congested Districts Board between 31st March 1894 and 31st March 1895, and what was their total cost as regards keep and maintenance; and (2) how many mares were served during this period, and of these how many belonged to occupiers of holdings at £5 and under?

During the period in question 19 hackney sires were in the possession of the Congested Districts Board, and the cost of their keep and maintenance amounted to.£1,520. In reply to the second paragraph, the number of mares is 1,209, the owners being all occupiers of holdings valued at less than £20 a year, and about seven-eighths of these were the property of occupiers rated at £5 and under.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to recent visits by British parties from the Uganda side to points situate in the Nile territory leased to the Sovereign of the Congo State, whether it is to be understood that Wadelai and Duffileh are to be open to occupation both by British and by Congo State forces?

Officers from the Uganda Protectorate have occasionally visited the Upper Nile, but no such inference is to be drawn from their visits as that which is suggested by the right hon. Gentleman.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether he can give the proportion of frozen meat supplied to the troops at Aldershot during the months of June, July, August, and September of last year; whether he is aware that the authorities, after taking delivery of certain lots of frozen meat, it was subsequently condemned as unfit for consumption; whether losses fall on the Government or the contractor; and whether any similar loss has been reported regarding the supply of native meat?

No frozen beef was issued at Aldershot during the months in question. Of frozen mutton the extreme limit of issue was one-fourteenth of the whole meat supply. No losses occurred in respect of frozen mutton or of refrigerated beef; but 5,328 lbs. of home-killed beef became unfit for consumption during the very hot weather of last summer. The meat was received in good condition; but, owing to the manœuvres in progress, it had to be kept longer than was desirable and to be carried about from one camp to another, under which process it suffered deterioration. The loss might, by the terms of the contract, have been charged to the contractor; but, under the circumstances, it has been decided that the War Office shall bear it.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many Grand Juries have adopted the Fertilizers Acts, and made arrangement to have analyses made at reasonably small scales of charges; and whether any steps are being taken to oblige Grand Juries to adopt the Act, and make it operative within their districts?

I am making inquiry as to whether the local authorities have scales of charges for analyses under the Act of 1893. The Government have no power to put pressure on Grand Juries to adopt the Act; but it is already operative, and it is open to the public to take advantage of its provisions without further action on the part of Grand Juries and Town Councils.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been directed to the fact that the collieries on the north-east coast of Great Britain are likely to lose an export trade equal to 800,000 tons yearly, in consequence of the German State Railway authorities having reduced their rate from the coal districts to Stettin down to about 2s. 9d. a ton; and whether he can devise any remedy for this state of things, partially arising from transit freights?

I am informed that the railway rate on coal from Silesia to Stettin has been reduced to 7s. 6d. per ton, and not to 2s. 9d. per ton as was at first reported and is quoted in the hon. Member's Question. It is also reported that the imports of all kinds of British coal into Stettin and Swinemünde amount to about 600,000 tons annually. The German railway authorities can fix their own freight charges, even at rates below the cost of service.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to inform the House as to President Kruger's reply to his Dispatch of 4th February and the invitation to visit England?

Correspondence is going on on the subject, and I am not able at present to give the hon. Member the information he desires.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—(1) if he is aware that Patrick M'Quaide, of Gola county Monaghan, but at present a prisoner in Dundalk Gaol, on the committal order of Judge Boyd for contempt of court, was evicted from his holding on the estate of Percy Burrell, a minor, for an arrear of rent amounting to £20; (2) is he also aware that M'Quaide, in December last, proposed to pay £15 of this arrear, and asked to be restored to his farm at a reduced rent; and that the Burrell estate is now in process of sale to the tenants thereon; and (3) will he take care that M'Quaide's right to purchase, as an evicted tenant, be not prejudiced by the proceeding which led to the man's imprisonment?

I have no information either as to the amount of the arrears of rent due by this man, or as to the amount offered by him in satisfaction for payment of the arrears. I believe the estate is for sale in the Land Judges Court, though no undertakings to purchase their holdings have been received from the tenants in accordance with the rules of the Land Commission. I can give no undertaking such as suggested in the last paragraph.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether a scheme of Cavalry reorganisation is in contemplation which would deprive the Royal Scots Greys of their distinctive Scottish characteristics; and, whether he would agree not to sanction any such proposal until the Scottish Members of Parliament have had an opportunity of considering it?

There is no scheme in contemplation which would deprive the Royal Scots Greys of their distinctive Scottish characteristics.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether four British subjects, the alleged leaders of the Rand at Johannesburg, were arrested more than ten weeks since on charges which have not been formulated, no preliminary investigation having as yet been held; whether these gentlemen have recently been again consigned to close confinement, even ordinary exercise being prohibited; and, whether he will make representations so that they may be brought speedily to trial, and that, until found guilty and condemned, the rigour of their imprisonment may be relaxed?

I understand that the preliminary investigation has been completed, and that the State Attorney is considering whom he will decide to commit for trial. I learn by a telegram dated the 24th inst. that the conditions of imprisonment substantially remain as stated by me on the 5th inst. I am making representations on the subject of the prisoners being granted bail pending the trial.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he will state what is the present condition of the negotiations regarding the case of Captain Lothaire; whether this Officer is still in the employment of the Congo State; and, whether there is any prospect of his being brought speedily to trial on the charge of having illegally executed a British subject more than a year since?

Captain Lothaire will be tried before the Court at Boma, in the presence of the British Vice Consul, the right of appeal to the Superior Court of the Congo State at Brussels being reserved to Her Majesty's Government. We are informed that Captain Lothaire, who is in the service of the State, received on December 16th his orders of recall to the coast, which he had at once arranged to obey. It is thought at Brussels that he must be now at or near to Boma.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether he will lay upon the Table the Instructions under which Colonel Richard Martin is to exercise authority in the territory of the South African Chartered Company; whether that authority extends to operations within the district of the Chartered Company north of the Zambesi; and, whether he will lay upon the Table any Correspondence which has passed between Her Majesty's Government and the Chartered Company with respect to the administration of the territory comprised within the Charter?

The principle of Imperial control over the police force lately in the service of the Chartered Company will be applied north and south of the Zambesi. Sir R. Martin's present instructions apply to the territory south of the Zambesi. As regards territory to the north of the river, the question is being considered in conjunction with the Foreign Office. The correspondence on the whole subject is not yet complete, but Papers will be laid as soon as practicable.

Will the Instructions to Sir Richard Martin be laid on the Table?

Certainly.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether he can say what course the Government propose to take with reference to the fee-grant in Ireland for 1895–6?

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether any decision has been come to as to allowing Ireland nine-eightieths of the English supplementary fee-grant for education for the current year?

I have already explained what is the decision of the Government on every point with reference to the Irish fee-grant except that raised in the Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Dublin County. The Government recognise that an equitable claim exists for the payment to Ireland of a proportionate share of the supplementary English fee-grant for 1895–96, although no such share was allowed for in the original Estimates for 1895–96, which calculated the nine-eightieths promised to Ireland only upon the original English fee-grant Estimate for 1894–95. It is, of course, too late to make provision for any further payment during the current year, but the claim will be dealt with in connection with the grant under the new system proposed for the coining year.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether France and Russia have stated that they are not prepared to agree to any withdrawal of funds from the Egyptian Caisse de la Dette for the costs of the Soudan Expedition; and whether any of the Powers have intimated that they are of opinion that the decision as to the withdrawal requires only the assent of a majority of the Great Powers?

The question of an advance from the General Reserve Fund for extraordinary expenses lies, not with the Great Powers, but with the Commissioners of the Caisse of the Public Debt. The Austrian, German, and Italian Governments have expressed themselves in favour of such an advance, but it lies with the Commissioners to decide whether they will proceed in this instance, as in others, by the vote of the majority. The majority of them have decided to do so. It is understood that the French Government do not consider that in this case the vote of the majority is sufficient. None of the other Powers have yet formally expressed an opinion on the subject.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he will state to the House the present situation of the demand made upon the Caisse of the Debt in Egypt for a grant from the Reserve Fund in aid of the military expedition on the Nile and the action taken by the several Powers represented upon the Caisse. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to make any further statement than he has already made to the hon. Member for Northampton, but I rather gather that he has some additional information to give.

The information received by Her Majesty's Government is to the same effect as that which has appeared in the Press. The Commissioners of the Caisse decided yesterday, by a majority of 4 to 2, to grant a credit of £500,000 to the Egyptian Government from the General Reserve Fund for the purposes of the advance in the Nile Valley. The French and Russian Commissioners made a protest against this decision. In conformity with the decision of the Caisse, a sum of £200,000 was at once paid over to the Egyptian Government. Certain French bondholders have served a notice through the International Tribunals on the Commissioners of the Caisse, protesting against any payment from the Reserve Fund for the expenses of the expedition, and summoning them to appear on the 13th of April before the Tribunals.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is the intention of the Government to send a British expedition to Dongola in the autumn?

Her Majesty's Government have no such intention.

asked whether it is intended to propose any Vote of public money in respect to the expedition to Dongola?

No, Sir, there is no present intention of proposing any such Vote.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether he is aware that small-pox is increasing in Gloucester at the rate of 60 fresh cases a week, the mortality being especially great among children, and that in one school out of 40 children attacked no less than 2G died; whether he can say how many deaths were of unvaccinated and how many of vaccinated persons: and, what steps, if any, are being taken to check the ravages of the disease?

The number of cases of small-pox notified to the Local Government Board during the four weeks ended March 21 was 414, 155 being in respect of the last-mentioned week. I have not received particulars as to the number of deaths which have occurred since my answer to the Question of my hon. Friend on the 19th inst. No details as to particular schools or as to the proportion of deaths amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated persons are as yet available. I am informed by the Town Council that they have done all that they can in the way of hospital isolation and disinfection to check the spread of the disease, but I am advised that the only effective means of controlling the extension is the adoption of a general system of vaccination and revaccination. [Cheers.] I am informed by the guardians that every facility is being afforded by them for vaccination and revaccination, that both operations are being carried out very largely, and that the guardians at their last meeting resolved to enforce the Vaccination Acts, which I understand have been in suspension for the last nine years. [Cheers.]

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether he is aware that on last St. Patrick's Day the Lieutenant in charge of I Company, S. D. Royal Artillery, on detachment duty at Burgemena, Malta, ordered the Irish soldiers to remove shamrock from their caps, notwithstanding that the Commanding Officer in Malta had given permission for all Irishmen in his command to wear shamrock on and off parade on that day; whether the troops in Ireland wore shamrock on St. Patrick's Day without any interference with proper discipline; and, whether the action of this officer was in accordance with the Regulations of the Army; and, if not, what action does he propose to take in the matter?

I wish to ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in the event of his answer to this Question being in the affirmative, he is prepared to allow Protestants to wear the Orange lily on July 12? [Laughter.]

That is a Question in regard to which my hon. Friend has been informed so often, that he must excuse me if I do not go into the matter again.

I never had an answer from you.

No report on the subject has been made to the War Office, and no action in the matter is contemplated.

Similar incidents have occurred before, and the War Office have always made inquiries when asked, and have expressed their opinion on the subject.

If there was a breach of the Commanding Officer's orders, no doubt the Commanding Officer will inquire into the matter; but it is not a subject for inquiry by the War Office.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether he is yet in a position to give the names of the Royal Commissioners on the Licensing Laws, and the terms of reference?

I am sorry to say I am not yet in a position to give the names of the Royal Commissioners. I shall do so at the very earliest opportunity; but certain formalities will have to be gone through, as well as obtaining the consent of all the gentlemen whose names it is proposed to submit, before it can be done.

I understand that the Government have practically arranged the names of the Gentlemen who are to serve. I wish to ask whether all these Gentlemen have given their consent, and whether, if some of them have refused to act, he will keep an open mind and receive communications as to who should be put in their places?

The great majority of the Gentlemen have consented to act. In the case of vacancies that may occur in consequence of refusals, I will, of course, consider any representations that may be made.

Have there been any refusals as yet?

I think I have given the hon. Gentleman all the information in my power.

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware of the fact that Mr. Young, M.P., who is said to be the representative of Irish trade on the Commission, voted in this House in favour of taxing Irish whisky? [Laughter.]

Order, order!

And that, therefore, he is not acceptable to the trade?

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman ought not to persist in asking an irregular Question when he is called to order.

I wish to ask the Secretary for the Colonies, whether he can give the House any information in regard to the alleged rising in Matabeleland?

I will read to the House the latest telegram I have received on the subject. It is dated March 26, and is from Sir Hercules Robinson. It says:—

"Captain Nicholson telegraphs from Buluwayo at One o'clock to-day that messenger arrived this morning from Shangani district and reported seven white men killed, one wounded, and four missing. The murders were committed with knives. Natives have not many guns. The remaining whites of the district in two laagers—one of 15 men at Shangani and another of 19 men at Stubart's Farm, 20 miles apart. Natives of district left kraal and held indaba yesterday at Jingen, 16 miles from Shangani. Napier's force of 50 men inarching on Jingen to catch, if possible, a witch doctor who is instigator of rising. Eight men from Seluke district at Gwelo and organising defensive measures. Buluwayo alarmed last night by false report of native attack. Great confusion, but no likelihood of attack at present."

asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether there was any truth in the statement which had appeared in that day's Birmingham Daily Post to the effect that Delagoa Bay, or territory in its neighbourhood, was to be purchased by agreement from Portugal?

With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I must adhere to the rule which has always been observed in this House and ask for notice of questions on foreign affairs. ["Hear, hear!"]

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, whether he could inform the House as to the cause of the delay in appointing a Chairman to the Commission on the Financial Relations between Great Britain and Ireland; and, whether the Government saw any objection to allowing, as in some similar cases, the members of the Commission themselves to assemble and elect their own Chairman? ["Hear, hear!"]

This matter has been under the consideration of the Government, but it was considered inadvisable, for obvious reasons, owing to the position at which the Commission had arrived in its labours, to appoint a fresh Chairman from outside—[cheers]—as has been done in some other cases. We think the best course is that suggested by the hon. Member, namely, that the Commissioners should meet and elect one of their own number to act as Chairman.

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, whether any decision had been come to as to the introduction of the Education Bill on Monday, and whether he had considered the great inconvenience which would be caused to Members if the introduction of the Bill were postponed until Tuesday?

I am afraid that I have not much to add to the general statement in regard to the business on Monday and Tuesday which I gave to the House last night. It is necessary on Monday to get the Third Reading of the Naval Works Bill, which I understood from the right hon. Member for the Montrose Burghs is not a Bill which ought to take much time at that stage. Then we must get the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates and get the Report of the Vote on Account. Getting the Speaker out of the Chair is an operation which has frequently been done in an hour or two, and sometimes even less. [Opposition cries of "No!"] I find that in 1892 it was agreed to in half a day— a morning sitting. In 1891, when there was no question of a Dissolution, it took one day. In 1894, when there was no question of a Dissolution, it took a fraction of a day. On Thursday, March 29, the Speaker was got out of the Chair after two Bills had been introduced, and five Votes were afterwards taken. That was under the late Government, and I see no reason why the present Government should not receive the same meed from Gentlemen who wish to get the Education Bill on Monday. As far as I can judge the Questions on the Paper to be discussed before we can get the Speaker out of the Chair, I do not see anything that need take much time. If that were the view of the House, and if there was an understanding that the Speaker is to be got out of the Chair, and that the Report of the Vote on Account is to be taken without any unduly-prolonged Debate, I do not see why my right hon. Friend should not introduce the Education Bill on Monday. But, in the absence of that understanding, I can only advise him to defer his statement to a less convenient day, but the only day which the action of the House has put in my power to afford him. [Cheers.]

asked, what was the reason for insisting on getting the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates before Easter?

I did not mean that it was necessary in order to meet the requirements of the law; but it is necessary for the proper conduct of public business that we should make such progress as to be able to begin the Estimates at once on the Thursday after the holidays.

asked, whether, in the case of a first-class Bill, like the Education Bill, it was not usual to give three or four days to the First Reading, and not the fraction of a day?

I do not think that has been the general rule.

If there are no more questions about public business, perhaps the House will allow me to make a statement upon another matter. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge has declined to allow the proposal for a pension in respect of his services as Commander-in-Chief to be submitted to the House. ["Hear, hear!"] Had this recognition of his labours—extending over a period of nearly 40 years in one of the highest offices of the State—been unanimously offered, it would have been gladly accepted. But the announcement of the late Secretary of State for War, speaking from the Front Opposition Bench, that he intended to oppose it, made such a result impossible, and His Royal Highness is not inclined to allow his personal claims—however legitimate—to become the subject of Party controversy. [Cheers.] Under those circumstances, the Duke, who held the position of Commander-in-Chief from 1856 to 1895, retires with precisely the same income from public sources as he would have had had he never occupied that office.

asked whether His Royal Highness continued to receive £12,000 a year, and whether he had not already received £900,000? [Cries of "Order!"]

I cannot understand whether the statement which the right hon. Gentleman read was the expression of opinion of Her Majesty's Government or of His Royal Highness, because, until quite recently, I have been of opinion—an opinion based upon the statements made by the right hon. Gentleman himself — that Her Majesty's Government took the same view as I did of the question. [Cheers.]

I do not know that I need repeat what I have formerly stated to the House. The course which the Government have taken has been perfectly open and aboveboard in this matter, and all the statements which I have made on this subject in the last and in the present Session are before the House. [Cheers.]

called the attention of the Speaker to a mistake in the Journals of the House. In the report of one of the Divisions on the Naval Works Bill last evening it was stated that the Chairman asked the Noes to stand up in their places, and in the list of the Gentlemen who so stood up appeared his name. As a matter of fact, he was not present in the House at the time.

If the hon. Member mentions at the proper office that a mistake has been made, it will be corrected.

asked, whether it was not the rule, where the Chairman of Committees or the Speaker asked the Ayes or the Noes to stand up in their places, that the names of the Gentlemen standing should be officially taken by one of the Clerks at the Table, or by the official Tellers?

I am not expressing any opinion on anything which has been done by the Chairman of Committees, who, I have no doubt, acted, as he always does, with perfect propriety, but, as I understand it, all that the rule really requires is that the Speaker or Chairman acting under that rule should have the names of the Gentlemen who stood up taken down; it does not prescribe any method.

said that he was finding no fault with the Chairman of Committees, but he wished to know how the names ought to be taken down.

It is not a common practice to enforce the rule, but it has been done on one occasion certainly by myself, and then two of the Division Lists were brought in from the Lobby, and while hon. Gentlemen were standing in their places their names were ticked off, and from that the Division List was afterwards prepared.

was continuing the question, when

said, I cannot listen to anything in the nature of an appeal in reference to what took place in Committee.

I was one of the Members who stood up, and my name was not in the list.

complained of the inconvenience to which Members had been exposed by reason of the fact that, contrary to the established practice, no information appeared in the Parliamentary Papers circulated that morning as to the Votes that were to be taken, and consequently Members had come down without the slightest preparation.

stated that last night the Votes which it was proposed to take were handed in at the Clerks table, but unfortunately they did not appear on the blue paper but only on the white paper. He greatly regretted if any hon. Member was put to inconvenience, and if there was any Vote which the right hon. Gentleman regarded as contentious he would at once have it postponed.

said, it was not so much a question of whether a Vote was contentious or not, as that there might be some diligent Members who had accumulated a number of valuable criticisms and notes, and that other Members might not have thought it necessary to make any like provision.

said that, if the hon. Member had called his attention specially to the particular decision he would have been prepared for it. But the decision, he believed, only amounted to this, that Estimates could not be taken unless effective Supply was put down, Now, effective Supply was put down in the present instance.

desired to raise the point whether cordite powder was the best smokeless powder in existence? Now, the British Government cordite consisted of 58 per cent. of nitro-glycerine, 37 per cent. tri-nitro cellulose, and 5 per cent. of vaseline. This compound was not a chemical one; the ingredients were only held, together by being mechanically mixed. Cellulose was, so to speak, a form of sponge, and interstices filled with nitroglycerine. A certain degree of pressure would always cause the vaseline and nitro-glycerine to exude. A powder containing so much nitro-glycerine was, he submitted, not a proper powder for the British Army. The German powder was nearly all guncotton; the Danish, the best of all, is the same; the French had no nitro-glycerine. The Russians objected to nitro-glycerine, and the Americans were trying to get along without it. Accidents had already happened in Italy owing to the large quantity of nitro-glycerine in their early experimental powders. The Financial Secretary to the War Office told him that the assimilation was perfect. He was not sure that that answer should not be modified. He maintained that if cordite was stored and then exposed to the air, a certain portion of nitro-glycerine would be evaporated. An experiment, it was reported, was tried by an English officer, who wiped with a handkerchief the interior of a largo cartridge-case that had been loaded for a long time and placed in a warm place, and he was able to detonate that handkerchief. Was this a non-fouling powder, and did it keep the rifle fairly clean? Was it easy of manufacture, or could it be manufactured only in one place? Of course, large sums had to be spent, and the Government dreaded a change; but he submitted that unless the Government were convinced that cordite holds its own at the present time, under the varied conditions of climate under which British troops used it, they should at once commence experiments with other smokeless powders with the view of having a reserve of some other powder besides cordite. They should not hesitate to sweep away the plant of manufacture of the old cordite powder, and get the best cordite they could. This powder could only be manufactured at Waltham Abbey and Messrs. Kynoch's at Arklow. Was the whole process of manufacture carried on at Messrs. Kynoch's, or only up to a certain point; and was the ammunition sent over in a certain state to Birmingham to be finished there? The present Government turned out the late Government on the question of the reserve of ammunition. It was conceded at that time that it was absolutely necessary there should be a large store and turn out of ammunition ready to hand. What would happen if an accident took place, as in days gone by, at Waltham Abbey? The factory there might be destroyed, and what were the authorities going to fall hack upon unless it was the Arklow factory? What protection was there for it,? It was so exposed that an enemy might destroy it, and leave the country without any reserve at all. They were told also that the private firms were going to contract for a large issue of cordite ammunition; but since that, statement was made they had heard very little of those contracts. He understood the Under Secretary or the Financial Secretary to say that they were greatly disappointed with the issue of cordite ammunition from private firms. He should like to know whether the Government saw any prospect of improvement in this direction? There was one large factory capable of turning out so many millions of cartridges; there might be an accident; and then the country was left to depend upon the exposed factory at, Arklow, which had to send its material to England for finishing and perfecting. Would the Government assure him that the cordite powder was not subject to climatic influences? If those cartridges were kept in heat did they lose their muzzle velocity and elevation? He had made some experiments in that direction, and he confessed that he had found a loss of elevation. Though he had not the means of testing the muzzle velocity, experts declared that there was less muzzle velocity. Another disadvantage was the great heat that was generated in the barrel. There was also the difficulty of cleaning. In old days cleaning was an easy affair by means of a piece of oiled and dry rag. In the manual containing instructions for the cleaning of the rifle, he found, first of all, that a special rifle oil was needed for cleaning the barrel after cordite powder. No oil other than that specified was to be used for this purpose. It was, however, awkward if a soldier's luggage was to be increased by carrying a special oil for the rifle. The instructions also said that in cleaning the arm must not in any case be wiped out with flannelette soaked in oil, but, that oiled flannelette should be used daily. A piece of gauze, four inches by two, was also to be used; then oiled flannelette was to be pulled through. Indeed, the instructions were of a most minute description, showing that the authorities themselves, with their anxiety to prove cordite to be the best powder in the world were afraid of the consequences of the rifle being cleaned with the only means which a soldier had at, hand, such as a sponge or a dry piece of rag. He understood that some time ago the Government were going to establish a cordite factory in India at Kirkee, and that machinery was actually purchased for use. What had become of the machinery? He presumed that it was paid for. Had it ever been used? If not, what, had become of it, and how much money had been lost over the transaction? Was it intended to continue the experiment of having a factory for cordite in India, or had the authorities abandoned the idea of making cordite powder there? There were a certain number of makers of other smokeless powders who complained that they had received no assistance from the Government on a subject upon which they thought that they were entitled to receive it. Personally, he had no share, connection, or interest in any of those makers of smokeless powders, but he thought that they had been rather curtly treated by the Government. The truth was that there was a mystery hanging over the whole of this cordite powder business, and the makers of smokeless powders believed that the Government would allow no other powder to be used or brought against cordite. The traders complained, therefore, that the Government were not encouraging the manufacture for which this country was celebrated some years ago—namely, the manufacture of ammunition. He had been told that a firm the other day lost a large contract for five or six million cartridges at £5 or £6 per thousand because their smokeless powder had not the Government stamp of approval. The loss was a distinct one to the trading industry in England. It was asked, therefore, that some reserve should be provided to fall back upon some other smokeless powder besides cordite. Why not provide three or four other kinds of powder as a reserve, or appoint a Commission to inquire into a smokeless powder which should fulfil certain conditions laid down by the authorities. If the powder came up to the standard, then it should be placed on the Government list for the information of foreign countries. The United States gave every facility to the makers of new smokeless powders or patentees, but the British Government continued to rely on cordite powder alone. He had been told that it was an extraordinary powder, but he could scarcely believe that at the present day cordite was to be the one smokeless powder of the world. It seemed to him that a nation like ours which might be called upon at a moment's notice to embark troops to various climates, should not be dependent on a powder which could only be manufactured in circumstances of great danger at one or two places, and which he very much doubted could be kept in circumstances of great heat or stored for an indefinite length of time. In conclusion, he asked what was the standard of pressure and velocity for use in the ·303 rifle? Did cordite over 12 months old keep up to standard? He moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.

suggested that until those powders were absolutely considered to be reliable, steps should be taken so that the rifles could be re-sighted rapidly for black powder in case the other powders were not found to succeed in various circumstances. In this country there was a body of drilled men who had passed through the Reserves, the Militia, and Volunteers, but who were not enrolled. Some of those men would come out on emergency, and he urged that both rifles and equipment should be kept for them in store in the different districts. He agreed with the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir Charles Dilke) in saying that all Reserves should be armed and equipped with the best material. On the subject of shooting he suggested that, until sufficiently long ranges for the Lee-Metford rifle can be provided, our soldiers should be made to fire at shorter ranges with the Martini rifle. That would enable them to keep up their practice in firing.

said, that he had been asked whether the War Office considered that cordite was the best smokeless powder in existence. The answer was that cordite had been tried in competition with most, if not all, other known smokeless powders, and had been found to hold its own perfectly. With regard to the keeping properties of cordite and its behaviour under certain variations of climate, it had been ascertained that the powder, when subjected to a high temperature, changed its colour somewhat, but this change did not appear to indicate any alteration in its character. In the recently published report of the Ordnance Committee, they stated that cordite might be subjected for a considerable time to the dry heat of 130 degrees Fahrenheit without suffering any serious deterioration, and without becoming unduly brittle. In a previous report the Committee said:—

"So far as the experiments have gone cordite may be considered suitable for service purposes as an effective and trustworthy smokeless explosive for breechloading guns and small arms. Time alone can clearly test its quality in all climates, but under the tests to which it has been subjected it does not become unserviceable."

With that opinion the Inspector General of Ordnance had expressed his full concurrence. The hon. and gallant Member asked whether the assimilation of nitroglycerine in the process of manufacturing cordite was perfect. In that process the assimilation was perfect, but it had been found that under a very low temperature some of the absorbed nitroglycerine was deposited. He was not aware, however, that the serviceable quality of the powder was in any way affected by that circumstance. Since the introduction of cordite the grooves of rifles had been widened to some extent, and it was found now that the uncleaned rifle shot quite as well as the clean one. The life of the rifle with the new grooves extended to 10,000 rounds at least. The new powder was not more difficult to manufacture than some of the old sorts. Cordite which would pass muster could be obtained, not only at the Ordnance factories, but from three other quarters which he could name if it were necessary to do so, and the House could rely upon a sufficient production from those sources in case of emergency.

asked whether his hon. Friend was now referring to the finished article or merely to the ingredients of cordite?

said, that there were three factories at least where the finished article of sufficiently good quality to pass muster could be turned out in a very short space of time. Unfortunately, it was a fact that one or two Companies on which reliance was placed for a supply of finished cartridges did disappoint the authorities, but one of these Companies had already surmounted the difficulties which had caused the delay, and another would surmount them very shortly. There was no occasion to take the gloomy view of our resources which appeared to be entertained by the hon. and gallant Member. It had been suggested that the War Office should adopt three or four kinds of smokeless powder and not rely upon one, but he was of opinion that it would be a very bad thing to multiply our explosives, for a system providing for the use of several powders would probably give rise to difficult complications.

asked whether it was known to what degree of cold cordite could be subjected without becoming unserviceable?

wished to know whether they were to understand, not only that the rifle with the new grooves shot well when it had not been cleaned, but that it did not suffer any deterioration from the action of cordite, because, if that was to be understood, what need was there for the elaborate instructions as to cleaning laid down in the manual quoted by his hon. and gallant Friend?

explained that a rifle, if only fairly well attended to—he would not say an absolutely unclean rifle—would fire at least 10,000 rounds. A rifle firing cordite was less likely to suffer deterioration than a rifle firing gunpowder.

observed that his point was not as to the amount of cold the ammunition would stand, but whether it could be safely handled when frozen. He had been on active service with the thermometer considerably below zero, and, if it had properties like dynamite, it would be utterly I unsafe to use.

could not be quite certain offhand, but he understood the ammunition would stand a temperature of 40 to 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

was understood to ask if it was not true that, though an improved rifle had been adopted the troops were still equipped with the Lee-Metford rifle, which was only capable of firing some 3,500 rounds with perfect precision?

could not say he thought the answer of the hon. Gentleman satisfactory, but as he did not see any means of obtaining a more satisfactory reply he would withdraw his Amendment.

asked whether the cordite manufactured at Arklow was up to the Government standard, or whether, as had been stated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, it had to be sent to England to be finished.

believed the cordite was not at present manufactured completely at Arklow, but in a short time it would be. With regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Hanley, the life of the older rifles was not confined to anything like 3,500 rounds, but some of them went considerably beyond that.

inquired what progress had been made with the nitroglycerine factory at Waltham, and how far it was from completion. He also asked what was the process by which the nitro-glycerine there produced was blended with the other materials for making cordite.

could not say to what extent the new portion of the factory at Waltham Abbey was complete, but when it was the power to produce cordite would extend to 1,000 tons a year. The mixing would take place very much as hitherto, but the ingredients would be separated by a longer interval from one another.

contended that the two limits of temperature, namely, between 34 and 130 degrees Fahr., mentioned as those at which cordite was safe did not extend far enough. He had been in places where the temperature had been 150 at 10 o'clock in the morning for several weeks together. Would cordite stand at that temperature as well as at the other low temperature spoken of by the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken? He suggested that experiments should be adopted with a view to arriving at a satisfactory conclusion.

said, there was no doubt that the qualities of cordite had been more tested in hot than in cold climates. The reports only referred to tests of 130°. But, on the other hand, a temperature very considerably above 130° had been applied without any deleterious effects. They had had no opportunity themselves of testing cordite at a temperature below zero, but a certain amount of it was sent on the Jackson-Harmsworth expedition, and they had had an exceedingly interesting Report in reference to it, in which it was stated that the cordite had been exposed to the lowest possible temperature for many weeks together, and it had given most excellent results. ["Hear, hear!"]

desired to know if it was not the fact, so far as Arklow was concerned, that there had been no reason to complain of the work turned out? The works recently established in Arklow were a matter of very great importance to large numbers of people there. He would like to have an expression of opinion from the Financial Secretary as to whether there had been any serious ground of complaint, or whether it was not, on the contrary, the fact that the work done at Arklow had been quite satisfactory.

was able to give an answer which he hoped would satisfy the hon. Gentleman. At first, undoubtedly, there was a failure to produce cordite which satisfied the requirements of the Department; but recent deliveries had been much more satisfactory, and they hoped, in a short time, that the Arklow works would be able to supply all that they had undertaken to supply under the contract.

remarked that cordite was the subject of a prolonged scientific investigation before the House of Lords, in which the whole of the qualities of that compound had to be carefully studied, and one of the grounds on which it was stated that cordite was selected by the War Office was that it was capable of enduring both the cold of Canada and the greatest heat in India. If the hon. Gentleman would make inquiry of Sir Frederick Abel and Professor Dewar, he would be able to procure information which would satisfy the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, because that was one of the merits undoubtedly claimed for cordite, and which he believed was proved by the eminent scientists he had mentioned and not disputed. ['' Hear, hear!"]

inquired if anything had been done towards lightening the equipment of the soldier.

said, he should be glad if the Under Secretary for War could state what progress was being made with the reconstruction of the guns, and how soon the batteries might expect their full equipment?

asked what would become of the old rifles used by the Volunteers which were being replaced by the Lee-Metford rifles. He hoped they would not be sold for 2s. or 3s. and exported to foreign countries. An agreement with France, Germany, and other nations as to disused arms, would be an advantage to the civilisation of the world.

asked whether the Martini-Henry rifles were to be at once converted, so as to be available for a smaller cartridge, or whether they were to be stored, for conversion at a future time?

explained that, in accordance with a decision of the Army Board, the Volunteers would, at no distant date, be firmed with the magazine rifle. The converted rifles, which were excellent shooting rifles, would be held in store available for any emergency, but the conversion would not be further proceeded with until the arming of the Volunteers with the magazine rifle was completed with the least possible delay.

asked whether, as a broad principle to be generally applied, the War Office would sets, before any old arms were sold to the public, that they were broken up so as to render them useless?

Yes, Sir. It will be so.

asked whether black powder was still in use, or whether all branches of the service to have the Lee-Metford ritle would have the use of cordite during the coming year.

That is so. All the black powder is exhausted.

asked when the St. George's Barracks would be removed to the Chelsea site. The trustees of the National Gallery complained of the proximity to the Gallery of a building which might contain inflammable material. He also referred to the squalid condition of the part of the barracks in which recruits were examined, and said nothing was more calculated to give young men enlisting a bad impression of their future life in the Army.

said that £2,000 was to be voted for a certain sewage farm and drainage works at Aldershot. His constituents complained that the sewage farm was near a hospital, and it was now proposed to turn it into a dairy farm.

said he wished to draw attention to a question which was intimately bound up with that of barracks for the soldier. In regard to it, he felt he must appeal to every hon. Member interested in the moral and social welfare of the soldier. He referred to the arrangement and structure of barrack-rooms in all the older barracks. In the newer barracks they had been changed, but he thought he might safely say that in the older barracks the arrangement of the barrack-room was the same as when the barracks were constructed in this country. There was nothing more repulsive and unhome-like than the average barrack-room of the British soldier, with their bare white-washed walls, deal forms and tables. He did not say that Continental nations had better barrack-rooms. In Berlin they did not compare favourably with ours. In Russia the barrack-rooms were better. It might be said that economy was the reason for these comfortless barrack-rooms, and that they were intended to harden the soldier for the hardships of war. But he was sorry to say such places had a serious effect on the moral and social welfare of the soldier. Instead of a man being fond of his barrack-room, and being accustomed to read there, he went elsewhere. If he went to the recreation-rooms, well and good; but he regretted to say that the recreation-rooms were not large enough in the older barracks for the soldiers, who, in these days of education, wanted to read there. He was afraid that many men were driven away from the barrack-room to the canteen and the public house. Then, in the community of fourteen or sixteen men occupying a barrack-room, the evil characters were often the strongest and brought the rest down to their level. The arrangement of the barrack-room was at the bottom of many difficult questions. Every man ought to have a cubicle to which he could retire and enjoy a measure of privacy. Home-like and comfortable barrack-rooms would have an elevating effect on the British Army.

said, he was glad to hear the hon. Member for Taunton say that the barrack-rooms of which he complained belonged mostly to the older barracks, which were gradually becoming antiquated. These older barracks were being reconstructed by means of the loan raised in 1888, the sole object of which was to improve the sanitary condition of the barracks and to enhance the social well-being of the soldier by giving him better rooms to live in. It was proposed to extend the loan, and in the present year a number of barracks were being taken in hand with the object of putting them in a proper condition. The Department thoroughly sympathised with the remarks of his hon. and gallant Friend. There was no doubt that, unless you attended not only to the physical health of the soldier, but also to his material surroundings and made the accommodation for him to some extent attractive, you could not expect him to keep in his barracks nor divert him from demoralising attractions outside. With regard to the removal of the St. George's Barracks, building was in progress at Chelsea, but no item appeared on the Votes because the money was provided by the loan; and it was hoped to remove the troops without undue delay; but there could not be any further removal until the barracks were built. He was quite aware of the condition of St. George's Barracks; that had been recognised by the late Government as well as the present; and the Department thoroughly desired to provide better accommodation as quickly as possible. As to the apprehension that the sewage farm at Aldershot was to be turned into a dairy farm, the Department had no information which bore out that statement; but it was in communication with the local authority about the sewage farm, in which a change was desired. It was thought that the drainage of the town and of the camp ought to be worked together. There was a meeting at the War Office not long ago, attended by representatives of the local authority, and he believed they were within reasonable distance of agreement. As soon as the local authority could obtain the necessary land at a proper distance from the camp, he apprehended there would be no difficulty in carrying out arrangements that would be satisfactory to both parties. It was not intended to have camps near the sewage farm.

said, there was one matter with regard to which they ought to have some information before the Vote was passed, and that was the question of the loans which were to be proposed by the Government, one for defensive works abroad and at home, and the other for the continuance of the scheme of barrack building. It was evident that these two matters, although distinct from this Vote, was cognate to it, and it would be satisfactory if they could have information as to the particular purposes to be included in the loans.

said, he should be glad if it were in his power to give the information asked for, though he rather doubted whether the Chairman would regard it as in order to do so now. When the previous loans were proposed, the application of them was not allowed to be discussed under this Vote. He could not give any figures, but in principle the application of the loans would be simply a continuation of the existing services, namely, barrack building and the defence of ports. He believed the whole proposal would be submitted soon and that information would be found to be thoroughly satisfactory.

said, he had again to call attention to the artillery practice on Dartmoor, which was carried on daily for several of the best months of the year and greatly interfered with the enjoyment of the moor. It was in the interests of farmers, residents and visitors it was desired there should be no firing on Saturday. The military authorities, in response to former representations, had appointed persons to view and to review; and the people now pressed that this sham reviewing might give place to real action. It was also requested that land might be given up by the War Office for the purpose of allotments for the residents in St. Budeaux and Eggbuckland. These villages were adjoining Plymouth and Devonport, and consequently the land had a high prospective building value, and landowners were unable to let the land for allotments at a price within the reach of the parishioner. But the Government, which was the largest owner in the districts, having at Eggbuckland 116 acres—nearly double that of anyone else—owned land under conditions which precluded it from having a prospective building value. For it was land adjoining forts, and consequently no building was allowed within the line of fire. It was land too which was in both cases peculiarly well suited for the purpose, being within easy access of the villages. Therefore, while he did not blame the landowners for not giving allotments, he did blame the War Office—which was the largest landowner in the district, and which ought to have some regard for the convenience of the people for not giving allotments. It might be said that if the War Office gave allotments they would have a difficulty in dealing with a large number of people; but the difficulty would be got over by allowing the people to take the land through the parish councils, as the parish councils were willing to do under any reasonable conditions the War Office might propose. The contention of the War Office that the people could get land for allotments elsewhere was disproved by the chairman of the Eggbuckland parish council, who had written to him:—

"At present we are in want of about seven or eight acres of land for allotments near the village. We have tried all the owners of land adjacent to the village, and it is absolutely impossible to get land from them. They have all refused, and unless we take compulsory powers, there seems no chance of obtaining land for the purpose. The War Office land would be very suitable, for it is near the village."

The position of affairs in St. Budeaux was very much the same. There was the same difficulty there in obtaining land for allotments. He thought the War Office ought really to consider the requirements of these people. If they gave the land for allotments the artillery line of sight would not be interfered with, for the people would agree to put no sheds on it, and he pointed out that there were several banks of great height now on the land. He thought those requests most reasonable, and therefore he urged the Government to consider them favourably.

reminded his hon. Friend that in dealing with this question last year he had said that he was advised that there were serious objections to letting lands in the hands of the military authorities for allotment purposes. He could only give his right hon. Friend the same answer this year. When land was given for allotments by a public Department, it was extremely difficult ever to get it back again, and when his hon. Friend advanced the point that, it would be to the public advantage to let this land for allotments, he must not forget that whatever was to the advantage of the military authorities was to the public advantage. He had received a report on the subject from the present Adjutant-General at Devonport, who for military reasons was strongly opposed to letting the land for allotments.

Will my hon. Friend quote from the Report?

said, the Adjutant-General reported in addition to the military reasons, that there was plenty of other land in the parish available for allotments, which was more suitable for that purpose than the War Department land; but the promoters of this movement made no secret of the fact that they expected to get the land cheaper from the Government than from the landowners. ["Hear, hear!"] He hoped his hon. Friend would regard his answer in regard to the allotments as final. Turning to the question of artillery practice on Saturday, he would again remind his hon. Friend that last year he informed him that the military authorities avoided as far as possible having artillery practice on Saturday, and when circumstances compelled them to take that course due notice of the fact was given to the inhabitants. Artillery batteries were brought up to Dartmoor for practice in rotation. One battery remained there for a certain time, when it was replaced by another battery, and it was only in the event of a battery being unable, owing to bad weather, to complete its practice within the period that the advantage of a fine Saturday was seized for the purpose. This did not often occur, but if it were not done occasionally, either the battery would have to go away with its practice incomplete, or the practice of succeeding batteries would be thrown out of gear.

thanked his hon. Friend for the full manner in which he had answered his questions. He should like to point out that Saturday was not always a fine day; and he therefore did not understand why, if the practice of the batteries was thrown out of gear by missing one day, the same thing did not happen when a Saturday was missed.

replied, that there was no practice ordinarily taken on Saturdays. It was only when one of the ordinary days was missed that practice was taken on a Saturday.

said, that the real difficulty of the War Office was that under the standing Regulations they were only able to keep their troops under canvas at Dartmoor for a certain period of the year, and must get all the firing done in that period. But there was no firing on many Saturdays, and he would prefer to have the early months left free altogether. As to the other question of the allotments, he was struck with astonishment by the letter of the Adjutant-General, and that astonishment was increased by the information he received from the locality. What did the Adjutant-General state? That the military authorities were being pressed for this land because people expected to get it cheaper than they could get land from the ordinary landowner. Exactly—that was the whole case. It was because this land had no prospective building value, being held on conditions which forbade building, that the people very naturally and rightly desired to rent it. He denied the statement of the Adjutant-General that there was plenty of land to be obtained at a fair price. He was assured, in letters from the Parish Councils of Eggbuckland and St. Budeaux that it was absolutely impossible to get land from private landowners by voluntary means, and he had already proved this to the House.

asked what was the pay and what were the extra allowances of the Governor and Commandant of Sandhurst. Further, what were his duties? He was informed that this officer received distinguished visitors to the College, but that on other occasions he was absent, and that his work was done by the Assistant Commandant. The College was inordinately expensive. The cadets cost twice as much as the naval cadets. Their parents had to pay £150 for them, and after that make them an allowance and pay for their messing.

said, that the Governor had £1,500 a year and a house. He was a military officer of high rank, and in fixing his pay regard was had to what other officers of the same rank would receive. He had an extremely responsible position, and it would be most undesirable to place a man of secondary position in the office, considering that the cadets were at perhaps the most critical period of their lives. The charges at Sandhurst were high, but they were not excessive as compared with those of some of our public schools.

said, that he was informed that the Commandant was rarely present at the College, and that his duties were discharged by his second-in-command.

said, that the War Office had never heard that the Commandant did not attend to his duties. He would make further inquiries, since the question had been raised.

said, it was true that public attention had been directed to the great cost of the Sandhurst course. A competent Committee had looked into the question closely, and he understood that the recommendations of the Committee were such as would satisfy all complaint. As to the Governor, nothing could have a more beneficial effect on the cadets than having a man of the highest character over them, who would be a model of all those qualities which an officer of the Army ought to possess. He knew of his own knowledge that the present Commandant abundantly possessed the very qualities required for the responsible position which he held. ["Hear, hear!"]

said, that the Committee of 1877 on the employment of soldiers and sailors recommended that in competition for civil employment fair weight should be given to such branches of knowledge as soldiers and sailors might have acquired in service. This recommendation had never been carried out, and no standard had been fixed in the Civil Service examinations for military certificates gained in the Army schools. The Committee of 1894-5 recommended that a certain number of vacancies in the second division of the Civil Service should be reserved for competition among the holders of first-class Army school certificates. There were a great number of men of very good education in the Army —equal to some of the clerks in the second division of the Civil Service. Engineers, for example, could find many employments, but infantry men learnt nothing during their years of service which could be useful to them in getting employment in civil life afterwards. There were some 17,000 men who annually left the Army, and had nothing but their military training to be of service to them in after life. If they could go to a private, employer and say they could do anything in the shape of building or painting or other trades they would have some chance. In this connection a useful suggestion was made by the Committee which sat in the last few-years, namely, that encouragement should be given to the soldier to attend courses of instruction, including those in the national schools of technical instruction, apart from his military training, which he would find useful in after life.

referred to the item relating to the subscription to the association for the employment of discharged and reserve soldiers, and said that although successive Ministries and Secretaries of State had expressed their sympathy for the object, they never got any further, and so they always marched in a vicious circle and never made any progress at all. He listened attentively to the speech of the Under Secretary the other night on this subject, but did not derive much information from it. The Under Secretary simply told them that it was possible in future some solution would be found for the problem. That, in the words of Dr. McGregor, a former Member of the House, "was not good enough for him.'' The authorities of the War Office had no excuse for doing nothing, because they had the Reports and Recommendations of Parliamentary Committees on the subject. They had the Report of the hon. Member for Central Sheffield, which showed that out of 875 posts which soldiers were capable of filling in Government Departments only 270 were filled by them. He had himself been in communication with Lord Lansdowne with reference to the discharge of old soldiers from Sheerness in preference to civilians. This was an object-lesson which did not bear out the euphemistic phrase of the Under Secretary. The point of his complaint was that they could not get the War Office to pay attention to the matter. Unless the Government would make some provision for those old soldiers when they returned to civil life, in order to keep them from loafing about the streets, they would remain as sign-posts of warning to their brothers and friends not to take the Queen's shilling.

said, that personally he did not think that giving a State contribution to the Society which his hon. and gallant Friend named, was really the best way to meet the difficulty. A much better way would be to set a proper example, as had been urged upon them for so many years. He could not imagine anything more detrimental to the end in view than the spectacle of the streets crowded with old soldiers who could not get employment. The best way in which the War Office could encourage the National Society for the civil employment of reserve and discharged soldiers and sailors would be, in conjunction with the Postal authorities, to relieve, them of the task of finding employment for so many men.

threw out the suggestion that the War Office might see their way to make a substantial contribution to the Society mentioned for, say, two or three years, and then it. would be seen whether the results were such as would justify a continuance of the contribution. But let the War Office and the House be under no mistake that the grievance was not a real one.

said, there was great difficulty in dealing with this question of the employment of Reservists and old soldiers upon this particular Vote, but he should be very sorry if the Committee had an impression from anything that had fallen from his hon. Friends that the War Office was in the least degree, indifferent to this important question. So far from that being the case, the Secretary of State had himself got the matter under his own personal cognizance and consideration, and, although he would not be in order in indicating in any way the course he was likely to follow, he did hope his hon. Friends would believe him when he said that the matter was being seriously and practically dealt with. In regard to the particular contribution in question, he would only remind the Committee that the effect of making an excessive grant to a private institution of this kind was absolutely to stop, as a rule, other sources of supply; and therefore it was that the contribution had been kept at its rather scanty proportions. If on further consideration or on new grounds shown it should be thought desirable to increase the contribution he was perfectly certain the Secretary of State would give the matter his favourable consideration. There was one other matter on which he hoped the Committee would allow him to say a word. This was in reference to "awards, etc." The War Office had thought it right to state to the Committee that the sum under this head included a further payment of £500 to Mr. Rees in respect of the experiments which he made in connection with lamps. He had already received a sum of £500, but he had made representations to the Department which convinced them that the cost to which he was put in connection with those experiments considerably exceeded that sum, and on the whole it was thought right, therefore, to make good to him what was in all probability the total amount which he expended, and to give him a further grant out of this Vote of £500.

said, he wished to say a word or two with regard to the men in the Chelsea Hospital. The expenditure on Chelsea Hospital amounted to £37,787. The number of men accommodated there was 547, but the total on the Vote amounted to 647, which showed there was a staff of 100. From the best information he could get, he gathered that the pensions which those men sacrificed when they went into the Hospital amounted to £14,000, and he understood that a great number of them were content to leave the Hospital if they could get an addition to their pension of one shilling a day. That would be another £12,000, or £26,000 altogether would maintain these men, except the very infirm and sick. There would thus be a saving of £11,000, and that was, he thought, a matter worthy of the attention of the Committee. He understood that the Committee which had inquired into the matter of whether out-patients should be granted were told that the men asked for 2s. 6d. a day if they left the Hospital, but he believed they were instigated to make that large demand chiefly by those who were concerned in the maintenance of the Hospital, and who were engaged in it in different small capacities. Those selected to appear before the Committee to represent the views of the inmates gave evidence in favour of stopping in the Hospital, but if an opportunity had been given to those men who wanted to leave, he thought it would have been shown that the number of those who wanted to leave would have been greater than those who wanted to stay. Of the inmates, 150 were married, and their wives had to live outside, but if a man, with this addition of one shilling, could live outside with his wife, it would be better for both of them. He thought the case of the married inmates ought to be considered, and if the offer to live outside with this addition of one shilling a day were made, he was satisfied a great number of the men would gladly avail themselves of it.

said, he desired to speak on behalf of the warrant officers of the Army—the choicest of a very valuable class of officers, men on whom the discipline of the Service mainly depended. When the senior non-commissioned officers were made warrant officers, it was intended that they should gain great advantage. The warrant provided that their remuneration and their medals and clasps, and their medal and gratuities for distinguished conduct and meritorious service, should be governed by the provisions contained in Articles 1,239 to 1,245 and 1,251 to 1,253. It could hardly be expected that the warrant officer was to be deprived of his medal for long service and good conduct by those regulations, and yet, while he was allowed to receive a medal for distinguished conduct or meritorious service, by these regulations he was not allowed to receive a modal for long service and good conduct. It would be said that a warrant officer got rank instead of this long-service medal, and that that was his reward. The fact was that if he got his warrant rank after 18 years' service he got a medal first and kept it, but if he got his rank short of 18 years he had to leave without a medal. He thought that regulation might be modified so that a warrant officer, the same as a non-commissioned officer, might receive his long service and good conduct medal on attaining 18 years' service.

asked whether there were any men who had served m the Crimea and Indian Mutiny still remaining who had not received a pension?

, in answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Woolwich, said that he should be exceedingly loth to see the House of Commons adopt any Resolution to do away with Chelsea Hospital. The antiquity of its foundation was well known, and for over 200 years it had been an asylum wherein old and meritorious soldiers could pass their remaining days in comfort. The hon. Member had fallen into one or two mistakes with regard to his computations. He had also drawn a picture of the married men being separated from their wives, and passing the remainder of their days in the hospital when a pension might have been given to them so as to enable the men to live outside. But no soldier came into the hospital unless he found himself to be in need of care, attention and good food, and if he wished to leave he could do so. Neither was it the case that the staff was paid to look after 400 or 500 pensioners. The staff was engaged in the important duty of granting pensions to the Army; it kept the whole of the records, and performed a large amount of useful work which, if taken away from the staff would have to be undertaken by the War Office. The hon. and gallant Member (General Laurie) had correctly stated the circumstances with reference to the position of warrant officers, and he promised to bring that question under the notice of the Secretary for War and the military authorities. ["Hear, hear!"] As to Crimean and Indian Mutiny men, he said that the, present regulations had been drawn so that undoubtedly a considerable number of men who had served in the Crimea were necessarily excluded, but so far from it being the case that there were few of those old soldiers, be showed that at the last computation there were 16,000 of them still in existence. If they proceeded, however, to pension the whole number, it would entail a charge of something like a million. It should be remembered also that all those who were unpensioned might have got a pension if they had remained and served their full time. For that reason the War Office had gone as far as it could to induce the Treasury to meet the hardest cases, and those were now coming in at the rate of fifty to a hundred per month.

suggested that it would be politic to enlarge the operation of the system which applied to the Crimean and Indian Mutiny men. Some of those men had failed to obtain allowances from the War Office, and the fact that some of those men were to be seen walking about the streets with medals begging their bread, he believed acted as a deterrent to recruiting. The system of compassionate allowances was well enough as far it went, but he submitted that it did not. go far enough.

said, he should be only too glad to make any concession, but the difficulty was that these men were all men who might have continued their service for pensions but had not done so. The authorities had been most anxious to meet these hard cases, but to go beyond what had been done at present was more than they could properly ask the Treasury to undertake.

presumed that the large number of men quoted included every man that could be counted. But a great many of these men had given but a small degree of service which could be called Crimean or Mutiny service. Many of them had gone out to the Crimea or to India at the last moment, and had come back without seeing any service at all. He imagined that the reason why the compassionate allowances were established by his predecessor at the War Office, and a service of ten years made one of the conditions, was in order to be certain that the recipient had given some substantial service to the country. These men all deliberately renounced the opportunity of serving on for pension, and therefore they had really no legitimate claim on the Army Fund, but with the view of preventing the scandal of seeing men who had served substantially and well in the Crimea in distressed circumstances and hanging about the streets, compassionate allowances were made. The limits of that fund had been stretched as far as possible, and if they went any further he thought they might as well throw open the door and say that any long-service man in the Army should get a compassionate allowance.

appealed to the Committee to allow this Vote to be now taken, and invited it to then proceed with the Vote on Account.

I will endeavour to answer the various questions which the hon. Member has put to me so far as the materials at my disposal allow. He inquires about the state of affairs in the interior parts of the Protectorate. At no time has the status of slavery been recognised by us, nor is it the intention of the Government to recognise it, in the countries that have there come under our Protectorate. The hon. Member asks us for papers and correspondence. We propose at a very early date to lay upon the Table the Dispatches that we have received since the last Papers were presented to the House. They will carry the history of events up to the present time, and they form to a large extent the foundation of my remarks to-night. The hon. Member has invited me to make the promised statement with reference to the policy of the Government, and I will therefore take up the case at the point mentioned by him—at the point, that is to say, when this House received what he described as the satisfactory promise made in the Debate of last August. It is quite true that upon that occasion my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House did repeat the assurance which had been given by our predecessors in office as to the abolition at as early a date as possible of the legal status of slavery in Zanzibar and Pemba. During the Parliamentary Recess we have been very busily occupied in discussing the conditions, and in considering the machinery that should be applied for the purpose, and I had hoped to be in a position to make a statement on this subject at the opening of this Session. But hon. Members may remember that towards the latter part of last year an insurrectionary movement broke out upon the mainland north of the island of Zanzibar, which movement, at the beginning of this year, attained somewhat grave and serious dimensions. One or two important chiefs were drawn into the rebellion, and the troops of the Protectorate on the spot were not capable of dealing with it satisfactorily. The dissatisfaction spread over a considerable area, and we had to send to India for a native regiment to compose this difficulty. Hon. Members may quite properly ask, "To what cause has this movement on the mainland been due?'' and I will endeavour to satisfy them. I believe it to have been in the first place the inevitable consequence of the taking over by the Government of the British Protectorate in East Africa. It will be understood that the British Government, with its organised forces and with its far-reaching administration, is a more formidable body than the company which preceded it, and it is the case that some of the big chiefs near the coast seem to have thought that their independence would be compromised, and that they would be likely to suffer greater interference under the new regime of the central authority than they experienced under the former state of things. Then, in Mahomedan countries there are always smouldering certain sparks of religious feeling and fanaticism which it is easy to fan into a flame, as has been done in this case. In the third place, anticipations respecting the legislation which has been foreshadowed and promised in this House have had a very marked effect upon the minds of some of the chiefs and tribes of the mainland. It is a fortunate thing that many of the principal Arabs have remained loyal to our service, and matters have now reached a point at which it is reasonable to hope that the movement will be put down shortly, and that it will be possible to put into operation the measures of pacification which have been thought out. These events have caused a temporary suspension of the original plan of the Government. I think that hon. Members opposite will admit that the first condition before taking any such action as is contemplated, action which the Committee must remember is directed against the immemorial traditions and feelings and prejudices, if you like, of the people with whom you are dealing—that the first condition of any such action is a state of tranquillity among the population concerned. Such a state of tranquillity is particularly essential in East Africa at this moment—on the one hand for the consolidation of the Government Protectorate; and, on the other hand, for the commencement of the works on the Uganda Railway. At such a moment we could not afford to alienate the principal Arab chieftains and tribes from our side. Any sudden step would have shaken their confidence in our administration, and would have sent large numbers of this population over to the rebel side. If we had acted with indiscriminate haste, what was a small, although a serious, political revolution might very easily have swollen into a very formidable religious war. That was the view that was pressed upon us by the British Agent at Zanzibar. It was the view held by every British officer, so far as we know, in the Service. It was the view taken by the missionaries, whose righteous interest in this question cannot be doubted. It was the view taken by the Protectorate, Council of East Africa, and by others. It will also be clear to hon. Members that no decisive step of the character spoken of could be taken except in the presence of Her Majesty's Agent and Consul General at Zanzibar. We could not take it either while he is away in the interior, or while a deputy is acting on his behalf. Owing to the movement of which I have spoken, Mr. Harding has been for two or three months almost entirely on the mainland. He is only just about to return to Zanzibar. He proposes to come to this country, to enjoy what I think is a very well-earned holiday, in about two months from now, and we propose to take advantage of his presence here to consult with him as to the final measures that we intend to adopt, which measures will be put into execution when he returns there in the autumn. This is a course of action which, I have explained to the Committee, has been dictated to us by political and other exigencies which we could not foresee, but I venture to submit that no other course was possible. No Government, however strong an impulse it receives from this House, or however upright and honourable the motives by which it is actuated, has any right to trifle with the feelings and sentiments of native populations. Our duty in taking over the Protectorate in East Africa was to pacify the people, to win their confidence, to allay their suspicions, to familiarise them with our good intentions, and in no degree rashly to irritate or to alarm them. Steps, which may be possible and easy six or 12 months hence, would not only have been difficult but dangerous now, and I submit that the Government had no right in their desire to redress an admitted wrong to run the risk of creating a political revolution. The hon. Gentleman who moved the reduction spoke with great frankness about difficulties which, as he well knows, stand in the way of carrying out this Resolution. During the past six months it has been my duty very carefully to study the ins and the outs of this question. It is not, as hon. Gentlemen are aware, a question of great simplicity, but, on the contrary, the more you examine it the more complicated and difficult it proves to be. It is a question which, if at all rashly handled, might lead us to consequences which hon. Gentlemen most interested would be the last to desire. The Committee must remember that in carrying out this proposal you have against you the whole weight of the traditions and the religious sentiment of the native peoples; you have to deal with a Government and with Courts that are the Government and the Courts of a Mahomedan country. You have an absolute consensus of opinion on the part of every English authority, including the missionaries, on the spot, that any too sudden announcement might be attended with dangerous consequences, and when the step is taken, as we hope it shortly will be, you will have to accompany it by certain measures to prevent the occurrence of an immediate social and economic disorganisation. If one result more than another of taking the contemplated step can certainly be foretold, it is that a large number of slaves, enamoured with the fascinations of an idleness they have never hitherto enjoyed, will desert the plantations and flock into the towns, picking up there what small jobs they can to save them from starvation. That might constitute a positive risk to the peace and order of the towns, to meet which steps would have to be taken. But you might have even more alarming consequences on the plantations themselves. We have a recent report from Mr. Hardinge, in which he points out that one consequence of the great and increasing difficulty in procuring slaves, because of the vigour of the search which our men-of-war have carried on, is that a large number of plantations in Pemba are falling out of cultivation. If by the contemplated legislation you were still further to diminish that labour supply, if you were to cut it down by, as you might, 50 or 60 per cent., you might involve a large number of people in immediate financial ruin. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Resolution suggested the introduction of free labour to take the place of slave labour. The Committee will remember that free labour, paid labour, is not indigenous to the place—it is an exotic, it would have to be imported, it would have to be carefully tended and watered to enable it to grow. The hon. Member seems to think that by a stroke of the pen you can import Indian coolies into Zanzibar to take the place of slave labour. I find that under existing regulations the Indian Government not only have it not in their power, but they would be most reluctant to allow Indian coolies to serve under Arab employers. But even if this difficulty were overcome, you have all the questions arising out of the hiring of coolies, of their transportation, of the organisation of free labour, of the condition of the buildings in which they are to live, of medical supervision, and of hospitals for their careful tending. You have to see whether the employers could employ the men and pay them their wages. There will be the further danger that the large number of slaves who will take advantage of the abolition of the legal status may constitute a great temptation to the slave-owners on the mainland, and, whereas it has hitherto been attempted, and with very remarkable success, to stop the importation of slaves from the mainland to the island, you may have a serious reflux in the opposite direction—from the islands to the mainland. Again, the bulk of the planters are unfortunately in the hands of usurers, who act in the most extortionate manner. The majority of the estates are heavily mortgaged, and, supposing you diminish the labour supply in the way I have been speaking of, you would have these usurers in many cases foreclosing on the estates, and exacting, so far as they could, the utmost farthing. I submit we have no right to hand over a class, many of whom are exercising a legal right, to absolute ruin. Suggestions have been made—such as the institution of land banks or the creation of some sort of loan to tide over the difficulty—to bridge the interval between the first somewhat sharp consequences and the final settlement of the new order of things. Furthermore, when you carry out these proposals you will have to take steps with regard to the tribunals. Unless your new legislation is to be a dead letter from the day that it is proclaimed, you will have to constitute new tribunals to administer the new law. My hon. Friend mentioned the case of Egypt. It is known that in Egypt a large number of slaves have taken out manumission papers and procured their freedom; and in Egypt the institution of homes into which slaves can go when they leave their masters, and stay till they get employment elsewhere, has been a great success. I think that at Zanzibar it might be very desirable to set up similar homes. All these points which I have endeavoured briefly to put before the Committee are points which must be met. They cannot be discussed at the end of a telegraph wire. We cannot get replies to Dispatches in less than six weeks, and I do not think that the position which I have indicated to the Committee will be in reality disappointing to hon. Members. They do not want any sudden action, which might set back this movement for years. I hope in these few words I have clearly explained to the Committee the position of the Government. We do not depart from the assurances we have given. We repeat and renew those assurances. We have been prevented up to this moment by circumstances which we could not foresee from carrying them out. There remain a number of questions of practical importance, but Mr. Harding will be in London in June, when we hope to arrive at a decision as to the actual methods by which the new system can be put into operation and carried out when he returns to Zanzibar. ["Hear, hear!"]

There are difficulties of two kinds which are now and always will be inseparable in dealing with this question. They are difficulties which always have to be faced whenever this question of slavery is dealt with. The right hon. Gentleman has faced those difficulties with that decision which he always has at his command; but at the same time, with all respect to him, I must remind him that the point reached last March was this. The difficulties were admitted they were known to exist. The Government of the day had promised that these difficulties should be overcome, and they were going to find a way to overcome them. ["Hear, hear!"] It must be a little disappointing to have these difficulties stated all over again, and to find that, as far as the information given to the Committee is concerned, we have advanced no further than a year ago. I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that the last time I stated those difficulties the Government received no quarter whatever from his friends. [Cheers.] I remember the expression from one Member opposite that our policy was sufficient to make the bones of Wilber force turn in his grave, and in particular the present Secretary for the Colonies was very hostile. Our position was this. We stated that the difficulties were great, but they must come to an end. I stated, on behalf of the Government, that until we received the Report which we were expecting we were entitled to plead for a little delay. The Secretary for the Colonies would not allow that, and he appealed to the House to decide whether or not slavery ought to go on in these islands. Now the present Government has received that Report. It has been in their possession ever since they have been in office, and now they come down to the House and, I suppose, ask my hon. Friend to withdraw his Motion. That must be most disappointing to many Members of the Committee, and I fear my right hon. Friend in his speech has been somewhat unconscious of the disappointment which must inevitably follow. I come next to the difficulty which has arisen from the conflict which has been going on in East Africa. That trouble had not arisen in our time. ["Hear, hear!"] The argument hitherto has been, as regards postponing these measures for the abolition of the legal status of slavery, the fear of disturbing the peace. Now we are told that steps cannot be taken because peace has already been disturbed. Undoubtedly you are running the risk of disturbances, and I think my right hon. Friend might have stated to-night that the Government was going to make a settlement of this question, and that a termination of this state of slavery must be a part of the settlement which must be come to at the end of these disputes. ["Hear, hear!"] Once before the demand was made, but there was not force enough to deal with it. Now there is force enough, and what I should like my right hon. Friend to assure the House is that, having got his force there, it is the intention of the Government to abolish the legal status of slavery in the islands, and that the extra force will not be withdrawn until that object has been carried out. [Cheers.] That certainly would be a step forward. It has been suggested that there may be financial grounds—that there may be economic disturbances—and that there is likely to be a Vote in this House to compensate for the loss of revenue which might be caused by the abolition of slavery. I think it is a little disappointing that no calculation has been made as regards that question. As to whether a Vote will eventually be required or not we might have been told. I think there is no doubt that such a Vote would receive the support of the Committee, in the confident hope that something was going to be done. There is one further question I should like to raise in connection with this question of slavery and the Foreign Office policy, and that is the subject of the Madagascar Treaty—our Treaty rights in Madagascar. I do not know whether the Committee have followed this matter of our rights with regard to France. They were expressly reserved in August, 1890. These Treaty rights have been used, not only not to give annoyance to France; we have stretched a point to prevent giving them annoyance. We have given up the right of searching for slaves in the territorial waters of Madagascar. But we have received no reciprocity with regard to the view of other Powers. We want to know how our Treaty rights in Madagascar are likely to stand in the course of the next few years. There have been rumours that, owing to the changes to be made by the French Protectorate, those Treaty rights are to be denounced, and great apprehensions of danger have been entertained. Under the Declaration of 1890 those Treaty rights were expressly guaranteed when the Protectorate of France over Madagascar was recognised; that Declaration has at different times been the subject of much criticism, partly by supporters of Lord Salisbury himself, on the ground that it was a bargain which was not favourable enough to British interests. I do not think I have ever taken part in that criticism, but, undoubtedly, if we are presently to be told that one of the inevitable and ultimate consequences of those Declarations exchanged in 1890 is that our Treaty rights in Madagascar are going to disappear altogether, and that we are going to lose that most-favoured nation treatment which we have now under our present Treaty rights, then the policy of the Declarations which were then exchanged will become the subject of very serious criticism. ["Hear, hear!"] It will be a very serious thing if we are to lose the most-favoured nation position as regards our commerce in Madagascar. The other day I pressed my right hon. Friend to give some definite assurance to the House that those Treaty rights would be maintained, and he then stated that it would be premature at present to make any statement on that subject—a statement which cannot have given great confidence to the commercial bodies who are anxiously watching the question.

The hon. Baronet is hardly fair to me——