To call attention to the unsatisfactory working of the Judicature Acts; and to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the Administration of Justice under the Judicature Acts, with a view to secure greater efficiency and economy.—[Tuesday 23rd February.]

To call attention to the desirability of establishing a National Museum in Wales and to move, That in the opinion of this House, it is necessary for the public good of the inhabitants of the Principality that a National Museum and Library should be established in Wales.—[Tuesday 23rd February.]

To call attention to the serious effects of the long period of agricultural depression, so far as it affects peasant freeholders in Wales; and to move a Resolution.—[23rd February.]

To call attention to the refusal of the Education Department to pay arrears of Grants due to School Boards under Section 97 of the Act of 1870; and to move a Resolution.—[Tuesday 23rd February.]

To call attention to the refusal of the Education Department to pay Arrears of Grants due to School Boards under Section 97 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870; and to move a Resolution—[Tuesday 23rd February.]

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) what portion of the Ottoman Public Debt is now borne by Greece in pursuance of Article X. of the Convention of 24th May 1881, which provided that Greece should bear a part of that debt proportionate to the revenues of the ceded territories transferred to her by the Convention from Turkey; (2) what steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government during the 15 years which have elapsed since the signature of that Convention, to procure the carrying out of the stipulation of Article X. that Great Britain, Germany, Austria, France, and Russia should determine between their Representatives at Constantinople and the Sublime Porte, the portion of the debt to be borne by Greece; (3) what has been the result of those steps, if any; (4) whether Her Majesty's Government have received any representations from the Turkish Government on this subject since the signature of the Convention; and, if so, whether he can give the reference to any Blue-book in which such representations and the replies thereto may be found; and, (5) whether any recent Dispatch has been received by Her Majesty's Government on the subject?

No contribution to the Ottoman Public Debt had been made by Greece, the quota to be paid by her never having been determined by the Powers. In answer to the Questions in paragraphs 2, 3, 4 and 5, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on the 21st, which related throughout to the case of Greece as well as to those of Bulgaria, Servia and Montenegro. The correspondence on the subject has not appeared in any Blue-book, and belonging as it does in the main to the year 1885, is now somewhat out of date.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether, since the sinking by ramming of Her Majesty's ship Victoria by Her Majesty's ship Camperdown, the Admiralty have received reports of narrow escapes of Her Majesty's ships from being rammed by others of Her Majesty's ships, in consequence of slight accidents to machinery during manœuvres in close order, and, if not, whether they have reason to believe that such narrow escapes do take place; and (2) whether, in view of danger of ships being sunk or injured by the rams of their consorts, as in the case of the Victoria risk of loss both to the rammer and the rammed, and in view also of the increased range and efficiency attained in gun-fire, causing an increased probability of Naval actions being fought at considerable distances between the contending ships, the Admiralty will take into reconsideration the desirability of continuing to fit Her Majesty's ships with rams projecting 20 feet below water, and so fitted as to be incapable of resisting any great twisting strain?

The Admiralty have received no reports of narrow escapes of Her Majesty's ships from being rammed by others of Her Majesty's ships, in consequence of slight accidents to machinery during manœuvres in close order. As to the second Question the hon. Member is in error. None of Her Majesty's ships have "rams 20 feet below the water," and therefore the remainder of his question falls to the ground.

asked if the right hon. Gentleman had any reason to believe that there had been any narrow escapes?

said he had no reason to believe there had been any narrow escapes as suggested in the question.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty will consider the possibility and the advisability of engraving on the appropriate Admiralty charts a typical series of accurately drawn great circle routes from which any other great circle routes between any two points might be plotted out in accordance with the system suggested by Mr. H. M. Taylor, of Trinity College, Cambridge?

This question has already been considered and decided in the negative. The advantages conferred would not compensate for the inconvenience of a mass of lines crossing the chart, and the required information for routes where it is of most service is already given on the Admiralty track charts.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the great increase of alien immigration for sojourn in this country in 1896, amounting to 45,875 persons at eastern ports; and, if, in view of the facts, Her Majesty's Government propose to re-introduce the measure brought forward by Lord Salisbury in the last Parliament, or deal otherwise with the matter?

The figures of 45,875 persons quoted by the hon. Member is not the number of aliens arriving in this country for sojourn, but the number arriving from European ports, who are not stated to be en route to America. Having regard to the amount of business to which the Government are already committed, I am afraid I cannot hold out a hope of the Bill referred to being introduced during this Session.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of these aliens consist of sailors, and that the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, as president of the Shipmasters Society, has called attention to the great national danger?

Order, Order! that does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

I beg-to ask the Vice President of the Council what are the reasons for the delay in dealing with the scheme for the Denbighshire portion of Howell's Charity?

The delay is caused by its appearing doubtful whether what is called the Denbighshire portion of the Charity does not belong to all Wales outside Glamorganshire.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Return as to the Trade Spirits imported into the British Colonies and Protectorates in Africa in the five years ending with 1894, which was ordered on 26th August, 1895, will be presented to the House; and whether, with that Return, any later information can be furnished?

The Return is in hand, and I hope to present it very shortly.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if the Government propose this Session to introduce any legislation on the lines of the Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination?

I can only give the same answer as was given by me to the hon. Member for the Harborough Division, on Thursday last, and state that the Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination is receiving the consideration of the Local Government Board.

asked whether the hon. Gentleman could inform the House what the Local Government Board were proposing to do with regard to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Vaccination as to repeated convictions?

said the policy of the Local Government Board as regarded the question of repeated convictions was duly expressed in a letter to the Evesham Guardians in 1875. The letter was a long, one and he would be happy to give the hon. Gentleman a copy.

asked whether the hon. Gentleman would lay on the Table Dr. Thoern's Report as to the methods of vaccination pursued on the Continent?

said that he would be glad to consider the matter. Dr. Thorne had just hurriedly returned from the Continent, and he did not know whether the papers were yet in a fit state to be laid on the Table.

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that the managers of Public Elementary Schools are frequently obliged, before the Annual Parliamentary Grant is paid, to have recourse to an overdraft at their bankers, and to suffer a loss of the interest charged for such accommodation; and whether the Education Department will, in order to prevent such loss, arrange for a quarterly or half-yearly payment on account to such schools, in anticipation of the Annual Parliamentary Grant, upon such terms and conditions as the, Department may in each case consider necessary?

The Committee of Council would have no objection to make to the arrangement suggested by the hon. Member; but I understand that the financial difficulties which it would involve are at present insuperable.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, seeing it often occurs that young persons under 16 years of age are transferred under the Factory Acts from one foundry to another in which their employment will be identical in all material respects, whether some arrangements could be made whereby the certificate of fitness already granted, and cost paid for occupation in the first factory, may equally be applicable to the like occupation elsewhere in the same district?

The arrangement suggested by the hon. Member is impossible without further legislation. If such legislation were proposed, I could only consider the question as affecting all industries and districts alike, and the practical difficulties involved would be such that I cannot see my way to promise any reversal of the decision arrived at by Parliament in 1878.

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, on the introduction of the Budget, having regard to the decline of legal business in Ireland and the non-necessity for the tax, he will consider the question of remitting the licence duty made annually payable by solicitors in Ireland?

I am sorry to learn that the legal business has declined in Ireland. I thought that that profession at any rate was flourishing. [Laughter.] I had the matter of the duty on solicitors under my consideration last year, and I made a proposal to the House with regard to it, which was not very favourably received. I am afraid I cannot promise that I shall be able to do anything in the matter.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the fact that in the chief events at the National Rifle Meeting at Bisley this year the Lee-Metford rifle is to be used, and that there are only two or three rifle ranges in Scotland suitable for practice with this rifle, the War Office will, in order that Scottish Volunteers may compete on equal terms with other Volunteers, afford facilities for Scottish Volunteers to practise with the new rifle on the Government ranges or otherwise?

Until longer ranges can be established it is to be feared that the introduction of the Lee-Metford rifle will cause difficulty in many localities throughout Great Britain; but, after providing for the necessary shooting by the Regular Army, the Militia, and the Volunteers, the General Officers Commanding Districts will do all they can to facilitate practice by individual Volunteers and every effort will be made to minimise the inconvenience.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will give for the year 1896 a Return showing the Foreign export of coal from each port in the United Kingdom to each country abroad, and also showing the quantity of coal shipped at each port, for ships' use during the same period?

Yes, Sir, if the hon. Member moves for this Return, I shall be happy to grant it.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received satisfactory replies to the Circular Dispatch issued on his assuming office to Colonial Governments as to the best means of developing trade between the Mother Country and the Colonies, and if the suggestions contained in such replies will be published as soon as practicable for the information of the producing industries of the British Empire?

The replies to my Circular Dispatch of 28th November 1895, are not yet quite complete. As soon as they are, I hope to lay them on the Table of the House. I think the hon. Member will find that they contain a great deal of interesting and suggestive matter.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any plans have been prepared for the New Naval College at Dartmouth; and if so, by whom; whether the same have been or will be submitted to the Captain of H. M. S Britannia for criticism before being approved; whether any eminent architects have been or will be invited to submit plans for the building; and whether a fair premium or prize will be offered for the best design, so as to insure that Her Majesty's Naval Service shall be provided with a college worthy of its traditions and its fame?

The merest sketch plans have only so far been put forward, and they are entirely tentative. No decision as to the choice of an architect has yet been taken, but the Board will not take action without the most able professional assistance which they can secure.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether complaints have reached the Department in regard to the unsatisfactory character of the postal arrangements at Bournea, county Tipperary; whether he is aware that this is the only populous parish in the Roscrea district deprived of a Sunday post, and an afternoon collection on week days; and whether early steps will be taken to supply these defects?

Application was received by the Department some months ago for an afternoon collection of letters at Bournea on weekdays, and for a Sunday delivery of letters. The request for the afternoon collection was refused on the ground that the revenue produced by the post by which Bournea is served was insufficient to cover the additional expenditure involved. With regard to the Sunday delivery, the applicant was informed that in accordance with regulations of long standing, a Sunday post is not established or withdrawn in rural districts, except in compliance with the wishes of persons receiving at least two-thirds of the correspondence. A memorial has since been received, and the matter is now under inquiry. The result shall be communicated to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what stage the international arbitration in the case of Costa Rica packet has now arrived?

The cases on both sides have been completed and laid before the arbitrator, who is now considering his decision.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) what expense has been incurred in sending extra police from Dublin to Sligo with street preachers; (2) can he state from what source the expenses of those police are to be met; and (3), is he aware that the Sligo Corporation have resolved to resist the imposition and exaction of any tax to meet the expenses of the extra police, and that the County Sligo Grand Jury have no power since the passing of the Sligo Borough Improvement Act, 1869, to assess or levy a tax upon the borough of Sligo for such a purpose?

The total expense entailed in dispatching police from Dublin to Sligo on occasions of open-air preaching has been £1,213 13s. 9d. The expenses have been defrayed out of the Constabulary Vote, but claims have been, or will be made, for repayment from local rates of a portion of this sum, amounting to £206 16s. 9d. I am not aware that the Sligo Corporation have resolved to resist the imposition and exaction of any tax to meet the expenses of the extra police necessary for the maintenance of public order. I am advised that the rate can be levied either by the Corporation, or, in their default, by the Grand Jury.

, asked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the police were sent to Sligo in opposition to the express wish of all sections of the community?

That is possible; but it is the absolute duty of the Government to maintain law and order, and law and order could not be maintained without the dispatch of these extra police.

Is it any part of the duty of the Government to see that psalm-singing is carried on in Sligo?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a meeting, held in last December, of tenants and owners of land at Ballygar, county Galway, to protest against the tax imposed upon them in consequence of the expenditure incurred in connection with the drainage of the River Suck, which in several cases amounts to more than the letting value of the land; and whether he will take such action as will relieve the people of that district of a tax that they are unable to pay, and thereby allow them to remain in possession of their holdings?

said he answered an exactly similar question yesterday, and he should be glad to tell the hon. Member what his answer was then.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland do the Government intend to bring in a Bill this Session to extend the municipal franchise in Ireland?

I am quite prepared to admit that this is a matter that must be dealt with some time or another, but the Government cannot promise to introduce a Bill this Session for the purpose.

In the event of a Bill being introduced in other quarters will the right hon. Gentleman give it any benevolent help?

I could not answer that question without consultation with my colleagues.

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether any such Bill was likely to be brought in by the Government before the present century expired?

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether it is the case that Officers of Yeomanry Regiments are exempt from serving on juries in England, but are not exempt in Scotland; and, if so, whether the exemption can be extended to Scotland?

The reply to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is that Yeomanry Officers on full pay in England are exempt from serving on juries, and in Scotland are not exempt. The reply to the second part of the Question is that the exemption rests on a statute applying to England only, and could not be extended to Scotland without new legislation.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has given attention to the composition of the Boards who conduct the examination in seamanship on passing for the rank of Lientenant, which Boards, being composed of Captains who happen to be available on the spot, are of varying composition in regard to the ability and temperament of their members and the standard of efficiency adopted by them; whether he is aware that the examinations conducted by these Boards vary greatly in the time given by them; that they vary still more greatly in the number and severity of the questions which the candidates are required to answer: that they vary infinitely in their standards of proficiency; and that the results of these examinations are consequently unequal as between one set of candidates and another; whether, in view of the fact that upon the results of these examinations all an officer's future largely depends, he will consider whether some alteration in the system can be adopted whereby the element of chance which enters into these examinations may be eliminated from them; and whether he sees any objection to adopting a system whereby the examination in seamanship should be conducted for each batch of candidates by a single Board, having fixed methods of examination and a single standard of proficiency, as is now the case with the subsequent examinations in navigation, pilotage, gunnery, and torpedo?

I must ask my hon. Friend to allow me to give a general answer to his various questions. I propose to appoint a small Committee of officers of experience to consider the general subject of the instruction and education of young officers afloat after they have left the Britannia and have been appointed to sea-going ships. A part of the reference to the Committee will be the consideration of the subsequent examination held to ascertain the proficiency at which these young officers have arrived, and into the expediency or otherwise of any changes being introduced. I may add, however, for my hon. Friend's information, that the question of the examination in seamanship was fully considered by a Committee in 1886; and in the following year various changes were introduced. The establishment of a permanent Board of Examiners was, however, not thought to possess advantages calculated to outweigh the disadvantages.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any, and if so, what steps to inquire into the charges made over a year ago against officials in connection with the Consular Court at Constantinople; whether a special judge has been appointed to go out to Constantinople to try certain matters arising in that Court in place of the ordinary judge; and it so, when he was so appointed; and, whether he has yet arrived at Constantinople, or when he will arrive?

The charges referred to in the question are involved in certain actions now pending in the Supreme Consular Court at Constantinople. As the judge of the Supreme Consular Court is himself a defendant in one of those actions, and as his judicial proceedings may be indirectly involved in the other, it was considered advisable to appoint a special judge to proceed to Constantinople to adjudicate on those matters. For this purpose it was necessary to pass a special Order in Council, under the provisions of which Sir Richard Rennie, late the Chief Justice of Her Majesty's Supreme Court for China and Japan, has been appointed. He has not yet arrived at Constantinople, as the actions in question are not ready for hearing, but he will proceed thither as soon as his services are required.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that great inconvenience has been felt by the large number of people residing in the district between Johnston's Bridge and Lough Rynn, in South Leitrim, owing to there being no postal service between Johnston's Bridge and Lough Rynn sub-office to Dromod, a distance of eight or nine miles; and whether he is prepared to inquire as to the advisability of having a postal service established from Johnston's Bridge through Tooman, and returning by Cloncarn?

The Postmaster-General has received no application for the establishment of a Post through the district between Johnston's Bridge and Lough Rynn. Instructions have been given, however, for a Return to be taken of the amount of correspondence which would be benefited by the establishment of such a Post, and as soon as a report has been received the result shall be communicated to the hon. Member.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he explain why the Local Government Board adopted the unusual course of cancelling the medicine contract in Mullingar Union, seeing that the tenders were accepted by the Board of Guardians in the manner prescribed by them, and the accounts checked by the union officials responsible for their correctness?

An Inquiry on oath was held in June last by the Local Government Board respecting the medicine supply of the Mullingar Union, and the Board, on a careful consideration of all the facts adduced at the Inquiry, came to the conclusion that the contractor ought not to be intrusted with the supply of medicines, and they accordingly requested the Guardians to terminate the contract. This the Guardians unanimously decided to do. It appeared from the evidence given at the Inquiry, amongst other things, that the prices in the accepted tender of articles most in use were largely in excess of those in the other tenders, and that the prices charged for extra medicines not on the authorised list, which the contractor on the terms of the bond was bound to supply at current wholesale prices, were largely in excess of what they should have been, the Guardians having accepted a list of prices furnished by the contractor purporting to be wholesale prices.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the recommendations of the Committee that reported on the re-organisation of the Emigrants' Information Office have been carried into effect; have more suitable premises for the work of the office been secured; and whether more effective measures can be taken to prevent as far as possible intending young colonists being victimised by fraudulent agencies both at home and abroad.

The Treasury have agreed to ask Parliament for an increase of the annual grant for this service from £1,000 to £1,500. Some of the recommendations of the Committee are already being carried into effect, and others will be when the increased grant becomes available in the new financial year. Pending the finding of more suitable premises, the present ones have not as yet been given up; but in the meantime the Office of Works have been authorised to lend a suitable room for the holding of meetings of the Committee. The last subject referred to by the hon Member has been, and still is, occupying the attention of the Board of Trade, the High Commissioner for Canada, and the Colonial Office; but it is not easy to see what can be done beyond issuing warning notices, which is constantly being done by the Emigrants' Information Office. I would also call attention to the report recently issued by the Foreign Office of Consul General Warburton's on the "Distress caused to British Emigrants to California by fraudulent Land Syndicates and Emigration Agencies."

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether, in view of the distress prevailing in many districts of Western Donegal, he will say when the commencement of the works of the promised light railways in that part of the country may be expected; and (2) whether any other public works, such as the improvement of piers and landing-places on the coast, are likely to be speedily undertaken by the Government?

The condition of the small occupiers in Western Donegal has formed the subject of careful investigation by the Local Government Board, and the result of the inquiries made is that it is not considered necessary to adopt exceptional measures for their relief. With regard to light railways I am not in a position at present to make any statement on the subject. It is not correct to say that a promise has been given to undertake railway works in this part of Donegal. As to the second paragraph, I understand that the Congested Districts Board are completing the erection of a pier at Tory Island, and also the extension of a pier at Burton Port. No additional works of this character are in immediate contemplation by the Government.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether his attention has been directed to a number of pictures drawn from photographs which are published in the Irish Weekly Independent of the 23rd instant, and which represent a large armed force of Royal Irish Constabulary conducting pigs through the streets of Waterford to the place of slaughter; what number of police have been so engaged since the strike in the bacon trade in Waterford began, and what is the cost of the men so engaged; (2) whether he intends to allow the police to be continued at this duty; and, (3) if so, whether the bacon merchants whom the police are serving will be charged with the cost, or any portion of it?

The hon. Member has been good enough to send me a copy of the newspaper referred to. The duty of the police in this matter is not that of conducting pigs through the streets, but of protecting the drovers from apprehended acts of violence, and of preserving the public peace. Owing to the short notice that has been given of the question, I am not in a position at the present moment to reply definitely to the second paragraph. About 150 police, however, have been drafted into Waterford in connection with the bacon trade dispute there, and their cost approximately would be about £28 per diem. It is not the desire of the Government to take sides in an industrial dispute, but it cannot stand by and permit the coercion by intimidation and other illegal means of persons engaged in the pursuit of their lawful business. The police will be employed on this duty so long as the necessity for their employment continues. There is no power to charge to any particular section of the inhabitants of Waterford the cost of the police so employed.

said that arising out of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the Government did not wish to take sides, he desired to ask him whether he was aware that Inspector Whelan, who had charge of the police, was in the habit of dining with Messrs. Denny and Richardson and then coming into the streets and ordering baton charges—[Nationalist cries of "Hear, hear"] whether the right hon. Gentleman did not think that that that was taking sides; and whether he would see that this inspector was removed and an officer placed in charge of the police who would have the decency to act impartially? [Nationalist cheers.]

Order, order! The hon. Member is going beyond the limits of a question.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any decision has yet been arrived at with regard to the various questions of Exchange Compensation, particularly in relation to officers whose salaries are regulated by statute, and questions arising from domicile; and, if so, whether he can state the decision arrived at, or will agree to present the correspondence on the subject?

The subject of Exchange Compensation has been for some time past under the consideration of the Secretary of State in Council. We have made some progress towards settling some of the questions involved; but there are others of a very complicated and far-reaching character still to be considered. I hope that a general decision will be given before long.

I bog to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the inequality of the burden imposed on the outports for the expense of measures necessitated by the Government regulations for protection of the entire area of the United Kingdom against cholera, yellow fever, and plague, the Government will consider the advisability of contributing towards such expense out of Imperial funds?

, who answered the Question, said: I have not had an opportunity of conferring with my hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board on this matter, and I am not aware whether any fresh circumstances have arisen with regard to it. But I may say that last year I received a large deputation on the subject, and after communicating with the Local Government Board, I was obliged to inform the deputation that Her Majesty's Government saw no sufficient reason for altering the decision that had been arrived at by previous Governments, or for relieving the outports from the duty that had always been incumbent on them of preventing, at an expense by no means large, the introduction of these diseases into the country.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether it is true that the Governor of Malta, after first imposing a 20 days' quarantine, has since issued a total prohibition on all vessels, however healthy they may be, arriving from India; and (2) whether, seeing that this country, which is in unceasing communication with Indian ports, finds it sufficient to rely for the purposes of plague on the systems of inspection and isolation, which were so successfully tested both during the European cholera invasion of 1892–4, and recently again in the case of the Nubia at Plymouth, he will take such steps as will secure the adoption by our Crown Colonies in the Mediterranean of those more scientific and less inconvenient methods to prevent the introduction and spread of foreign diseases?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. As to the second paragraph, my predecessors and I have continually urged the Government of Malta to adopt the more scientific and convenient methods of preventing the introduction and spread of foreign diseases instead of the stringent system of quarantine hitherto in use; but partly from the supposed necessity of conforming to the practice of Italy; and partly from the inveterate belief of the population of Malta in the necessity of the strictest quarantine, which might lead to disturbance if the rules were relaxed, we have not as yet succeeded in effecting the change. I am now in correspondence with the Governor, and have pointed out to the colonial Government the serious injury which is being inflicted, not only on commerce but on the interest of Malta by the action of the Government, and I shall be glad if my remonstrances may induce them to adopt a more reasonable course.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, as the Indian peasantry will be compelled by the famine to sell their hoards of silver at a heavy loss through the mints being closed and the depreciation of silver bullion, it will be possible to make arrangements at the Government treasuries in the famine districts for the purchase of silver ornaments at a fixed price per ounce?

The form of relief suggested in my hon. Friend's question is not one that I am prepared to recommend to the Government of India, for, amongst other disadvantages, it is open to this practical difficulty, that, if it were once known that the Government would purchase silver ornaments at a price above their market value, those who would derive most benefit from this philanthropic venture would be well-to-do persons who could purchase silver ornaments wholesale. I may add that, although the divergence between the exchange value in gold of a coined rupee and that of an equal quantity of uncoined silver has undoubtedly increased since the mints were closed, it does not follow that the purchasing power of silver bullion in India has fallen.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he will afford the Irish Mails Committee an opportunity of examining the time table before the contract is finally approved of by the Postmaster General?

The Postmaster General will be happy to give the Irish Mails Committee an opportunity of examining in detail the time table which has now been fixed and of receiving personal explanation upon it, but it is desirable that any meeting for the purpose should take place without delay, as negotiations for the improvement of the service in Ireland are necessarily contingent on the service between London and Dublin, and have already been postponed too long.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in the event of the strengthening of the. Navy, it is intended to utilise the services of the chief engine-room artificers on pension, and holding Board of Trade certificates of competency, as assistant engineers in the Naval Reserve?

The Admiralty already possess the necessary powers for employing all pensioners in time of war, and it is not contemplated to make any special provision for the employment of pensioned chief engine-room artificers as assistant engineers in the Naval Reserve.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the strength of the Royal Naval Reserve, exclusive of 1,561 officers, in 1895–6, was 23,740 men, he intends at an early date to make proposals to increase that reserve to a number more nearly approaching the reserve of seamen ready in case of emergencies to man the fleets of several European Powers?

Without going into the figures of the hon. Member, I may say that I cannot anticipate the, statement which it will be ray duty to make when introducing the Navy Estimates for the coming financial year.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Government will appoint a Commission to inquire into and report upon the best methods of improving the breeds of cattle, sheep, and pigs in Ireland, and also of improving and cheapening the transit of live stock by land and sea?

As at present advised, the Government do not see any necessity for appointing a Commission for the purposes stated in the hon. Member's Question. With regard to the transit of live stock, I would remind the hon. Member that the matter formed the subject of inquiry by a Departmental Committee appointed in 1894 by the Board of Agriculture, and that Orders have since been made both in this country and in Ireland, giving effect of the recommendations of the Committee.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state what is the mental and bodily conditions of Fetherstone and Flanagan, who are still in Portland?

The health, bodily and mental, of both these convicts, according to the reports which I received last July and again in December, is good and not likely to be injured by continued imprisonment.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he considered the representations made to him by a deputation asking that the grievances of town tenants in Ireland should be remedied; and whether he will introduce a Bill to amend the existing law?

I have no reason to believe that the representation made to me by the deputation in question referred to a grievance confined to Ireland. The Government cannot undertake to introduce a Bill dealing with the subject, and I thought I had already made this plain to the hon. Member.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the fact that the pay of the European police in the Mauritius is 40 rupees a month, which at the present rate of exchange is about £2 7s. 9d., while the European soldier is paid at the rate of 2s. to the rupee; and whether he will take steps in the interests of efficiency to grant the police an equally favourable rate for home remittances, for at least half their salary, as a compensation allowance?

There are no distinct European police in Mauritius. The officers and men of the police force who are Europaans are paid in the currency of the Colony, and I am not aware of any reason for treating them more favourably in the matter of remittances to England than other Europeans in the service of the Colony.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State of India whether, with reference to the under officering of Madras infantry regiments, to which his attention was called last Session, he has caused inquiries to be made into the cause of the constant depletion of Madras regiments by transfer of Officers, and its effects on the efficiency and morale of the Corps, and the best way of providing a remedy; and what, if any, explanations have been offered or steps taken in the matter?

I have been, and am still, in communication with the Government of India on the questions raised by my hon. Friend, and the Government are looking into the matter, though I have not yet received any full report on the subject from them. I may say, however, that there is no reason to suppose that the circumstances of Madras regiments in respect of officers differ in any way from those of Bengal and Bombay regiments.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the cities of Londonderry, Cork, Waterford, and Belfast, have numbers on their uniforms, he will explain what reason there is against the wearing of numbers by members of the Royal Irish Constabulary both in the cities and the country with a view to their identification as a security against crime and outrage?

The hon. Member has raised this question on previous occasions in the House, and I have nothing to add to the explanations repeatedly given, both by myself and by my predecessors. I must, however, enter an emphatic protest against the last words of the question as conveying an imputation wholly undeserved and unwarranted against a most exemplary body of men. [Cheers.]

I beg to give notice that I shall bring forward this question on the Estimates, and that I shall deal with it at a generous and reasonable length. [Laughter.]

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, with reference to his statement on 19th May last year, that lower salaries are paid to women clerks in the General Post Office, Dublin, than to those in the London Post Office because of the higher cost of living in London, whether it is a fact that, despite that alleged circumstance, the male clerks are paid at the same rates in both offices: and, if so, whether the Postmaster General will reconsider his decision in this matter, and place the female clerks as well as the male clerks in both offices in the same position as regards salary?

Male clerks of the second division in the General Post Office, Dublin, are paid at the game rates of salary as those in the General Post Office, London, because these rates are not subject to any Departmental arrangement, but are applicable to second division clerks generally by Order in Council. But other male officials are paid less in Dublin and Edinburgh on account of the lower cost of living. The female clerks are treated in this respect upon precisely the same principle as the male officials, other than the second division.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) will he explain why, out of the 6,028 seamen who were discharged from Her Majesty's Fleet in 1895–6, only 1,372 received pensions; (2) what was the average service of those not pensioned in that period, and their average age; and (3) what were the respective numbers of those pensioned and not pensioned, who left the Navy in 1895–6, who joined the Royal Naval Reserve?

The answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's Question is that only those seamen discharged from the fleet in 1895–6 received pensions who were entitled to them according to the regulations. To answer the second paragraph would involve a prolonged and laborious search through the registers, for which there would be no compensating advantage to the public service. As regards the third paragraph, I am unable to say how many of the men who left the Navy in 1895–96 joined the Royal Naval Reserve, but 86 men who had at one time or other served in the Navy joined the Reserve in that year.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the total amount of royalty paid for the use of Belleville boilers in H. M. S. Powerful and Terrible; to whom was the money paid; and have the contractors for these ships handed in a bill for extras due to alterations made after the contracts were signed; if so, what are the respective amounts?

The total amount of royalty due to Messrs. Delaunay, Belleville and Co., the owners of the patents, amounts to £5,250 for each ship, of which £4,383 (including £83 for drawings) has been paid to this firm for each ship to the present date. Certain extra works and alterations outside the original contracts have been undertaken by the contractors, and in accordance with the terms of the contracts and the usual practice, the cost of these items has been agreed upon and approved by the Admiralty. I am not prepared to state the amounts so paid.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the remainder of the work necessary to complete the repairs of Her Majesty's ship Black Prince will be carried out at Haulbowline?

Further alterations and repairs to the Black Prince beyond those provided for in the original contract with the Passage Dock Company, are now under consideration, and such of them as are decided upon will be carried out at Haulbowline.

On behalf of the hon. Member for Dumfries Burghs (Sir ROBERT REID), I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Royal Commission to be appointed upon Financial Relations is to be confined to the case of Ireland, or will be able to deal with the financial relations of other parts of the United Kingdom?

I have to say that the same question identically was asked me by the Member for the Stirling Burghs on January 21, and I stated then that I could make no answer on the subject until I was in a position to state to the House what the terms of reference were.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking to the House that before any steps are taken towards the appointment of the new Royal Commission, the day and the opportunity promised for the discussion of the whole subject will be given?

The hon. Gentleman means before the actual appointment?

Yes.

Yes, I think objection to that.

I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give an opportunity for discussing the appointment of the Commission?

There will be no opportunity of discussing the appointment of the Royal Commission.

I did not mean that. I meant the discussion of the general question, and when?

I cannot say that, but I shall be able to state that early next week—possibly before.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if we are not satisfied with the verdict of the new Royal Commission, we shall have the power to appoint another Royal Commission? ["Hear, hear!"]

Certainly—if the hon. Gentleman is in office at the time. [Loud Laughter and cheers.]

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he can now say when he proposes to take the motion for the appointment of the South African Committee?

No, Sir, I cannot state definitely at the present moment when that will be taken, but I think I shall probably be in a position before the House rises to-night to make some statement with regard to public business. I confess I hope that we shall finish the Debate on the Address either to-night or to-morrow, and in that event I shall know before 12 o'clock to-night. Of course I shall make a statement with regard to Government time for the rest of the week. Of course, if the Debate concludes to-night, as I hope it will, to-morrow will be a private Members' day, and will not be under the control of the Government.

I understand the right hon. Gentleman had said previously that the Committee would be moved practically as soon as the Debate on the Address is over.

We do not propose to have any undue delay, but I should not like to give a definite pledge as to that.

In the event of the Debate on the Address and the South African Committee being concluded this week, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has any day in his mind for taking the Debate on the financial relations question?

No, Sir. The Education Bill ought to be introduced as soon as possible, but of course, with regard to the financial relations Debate, I am aware that hon. Gentlemen in the Irish quarter of the House naturally take a special interest in it, and I shall be glad to do all I can to meet their convenience.

proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words:—

"And we humbly pray that Your Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that a full and independent Inquiry shall forthwith be made into the condition of the masses of the Indian people, with a view to ascertain the causes by reason of which they are helpless to resist even the first attacks of famine and pestilence."

He said he was sure India would feel grateful for the expressions of sympathy contained in the Queen's Speech, and for the assurances that the State would do all in its power to save life. But he felt it his duty to move his Amendment because the Government did not seem fully to realise the nature and magnitude of the calamity. The methods of State relief adopted sought to mitigate the outward symptoms, but they did not tend to remove the cause of the evil, which was the extreme poverty of the masses. So far from removing this evil, the expenditure on famine relief aggravated it. He did not know how much would be spent, whether three millions, or six millions, or three times six millions. But where would this money come from? It would not come down from the clouds. It would have to be raised by the taxation of the masses; the dying would be fed at the expense of the hungry survivors, making the survivors more destitute, more heavily burdened, and less able to resist hunger and disease. Also he felt it his duty to place prominently before the House the Indian view of the calamity and its proper remedies. These remedies were not heroic ones, but they proceeded from an intimate knowledge of the condition and habits of the people. If it were asked from what sources Indian public opinion could be learnt, he would say, from his friend Mr. Naoroji, who was both a trusted representative of his Indian fellow countrymen and a true well wisher of British rule; from the Indian Press, and from the resolutions of the Indian National Congress, which gave voice to public feeling in India. The view hold in India with regard to the famine might be briefly expressed in three simple propositions. The first was, that the excessive mortality in times of famine was owing to the chronic destitution of the masses, who existed precariously on the verge of subsistence. He hoped that the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India would not deny the truth of this proposition. It was true that in the Queen's Speech the cause of the famine was declared to be the "failure of the autumn rains," but he assumed that was only stated as the immediate cause, the last straw which broke the camel's back, and that the noble Lord looked further back for the causes of the ryot's feeble powers of resistance. How, indeed, could the proposition be denied? For it stood to reason that the population must be living from hand to mouth if, on account of the failure of one harvest, they died of hunger, not by hundreds and thousands, but by hundreds of thousands and millions. If, however, the extreme destitution of the people was denied, he trusted that the House would call for inquiry and insist on this issue being fairly tried, as between official optimism on the one hand and unanimous Indian public opinion on the other. His second proposition was, that mortality from famine would practically be prevented if the ryot possessed a store of food, money, or credit sufficient to tide over one failure of harvest. This proposition seemed to be self-evident. For men did not die from hunger out of mere perversity, but because they had neither food in their houses to eat, nor money to buy it, nor credit to borrow it. As a class the ryot had not only nothing, but much less than nothing, being hopelessly in debt to the village money-lender. He remembered that in the early part of his service in India every ryot, however poor, had a little store of grain put away in a store room under his house sufficient to last his family two or three years. But that was now impossible, for we had sot up Debt Courts upon the European model, and these little stores were swept away by the bailiffs in execution of decrees. The first step towards helping the ryot was to release him from this bondage to the money-lender. His third and last proposition was a more hopeful one, and it was this, that if certain simple remedies were applied in the village adminstration the ryot would not only possess a sufficient store, but might become comparatively wealthy. In approaching the question of the ryot's condition the important fact must be borne in mind that, although India was at present a very poor country, she possessed almost boundless possibilities of wealth. She had a fertile soil, an unfailing sun, and abundance of labour, skilful and cheap. All she wanted was working capital. If the ryot had that in sufficiency, at reasonable rates, to provide himself with water and manure, he would turn all India into a garden. He had seen this operation going on near Poona, where land that produced a crop of millet worth perhaps 10s. an acre was, by irrigation and manure, made to produce a crop of sugar cane worth £30 an acre as it stood on the ground. And such was the skill of the ryot that whatever crop he produced, whether rice, indigo, opium, tea, wheat, or tobacco, it in the end always came to the top of the market. From these three propositions would be seen the nature of the Inquiry which he asked for by his Amendment. What he desired was a village inquiry, practical and definite, in order to ascertain in detail the condition of the ryot, to learn the causes of his poverty, and to apply remedies to the evils from which he was suffering. The inquiry he wanted was a village inquiry, because in the rural villages were included 80 per cent. of the population, and because the village community was the microcosm of all India, and if they could discover the means to make one village prosperous they held the clue to make all India prosperous. For such an inquiry no imperial Commission was necessary. The local administration might be directed to select typical villages in each province and to appoint a Committee to make a thorough diagnosis of their condition. The Committee must be representative, consisting of Europeans and Indians, officials and non-officials—such as were appointed to the Deccan Riots Commission 20 years ago. Their investigation should be of a microscopic kind, to detect the microbes which blighted the ryot's prosperity. He believed that those microbes would be found to be the usurious money-lender, who should be replaced by agricultural banks; the Civil Court, which should be replaced by popular conciliation and arbitration Courts; and the harsh and rigid collection of the revenue, which should be replaced by methods suited to the habits and wishes of the ryot. If these simple remedies were adopted he believed that famines would be rendered impossible. In making these proposals he did not desire to impute any blame to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India; but he had carefully studied the condition of the ryot for 30 or 40 years, and in this great crisis he desired to place the results of his experience at the disposal of the noble Lord and of the House. He earnestly trusted his proposals would receive sympathetic consideration. ["Hear, hear!"]

seconded the Amendment. He said that all that was asked for was some inquiry for the purpose of ascertaining whether something could not be done to prevent a recurrence of the present terrible state of affairs in India. He should be out of order were he to refer at any length to the subject of famine itself, but he might be permitted to say that they all recognised with satisfaction and pride the remedial efforts made in this country, and that they had no doubt that the Government were doing all they could to alleviate the immense mass of suffering which must ensue. They imputed no blame whatever to the present Government or any other, and, far from wishing to complain of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India, they desired to diminish the responsibility at present resting upon him, and all Indian Secretaries. In the case of famine prevention was better than cure, and if anything could be done to prevent it it ought to be clone. The poverty of India was, he supposed, recognised by everyone, but he did not know whether it was as generally recognised how extreme that poverty was. Poverty was a comparative term. He remembered the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton saying on one occasion that India was lightly taxed, the taxation being only half a crown per head of the population. But it should be borne in mind that in India half a crown meant something very different from what it meant in this country. The wages of ordinary labourers in many parts of India were only about a shilling a week, whereas here £1 a week was not considered high wages. He remembered having a conversation with the late Mr. Haridas Veharidas, who was a very loyal subject, and a Member of the Royal Commission on Opium, as to the condition of the people in the native States and under British rule respectively. That gentleman told him that the native Princes screwed more out of the people than we did, but that their methods were more elastic, and that they did not press for taxes in hard times. Our methods, on the other hand, were inelastic, and pressed very hardly upon the ryots in times of scarcity. If something could be done to prevent these recurrent disasters in India, the sooner that preventive was known the better. If, on the other hand, there was really no remedy, if it was in the natural order of things that these famines must occur, it would be well that the fact should be publicly known once for all. We should then realise that all we could do was to strengthen the Famine Fund and improve the Famine Code. He thought that the result of his hon. Friend's drawing attention to this subject and initiating that Debate would be to strengthen the hands of the noble Lord opposite.

said that he knew the hon. Baronet opposite in India, and was familiar with his habits of thought. He could not agree with the hon. Baronet in his wholesale condemnation of the methods of administration in India. When he knew him in India the hon. Member used to propose very much the same remedies as he proposed now, and in his general views of administration was not in harmony with the great majority of the service to which he belonged. The hon. Baronet had made some very strong statements, but they were quite unsupported by evidence. He had begun by saying that the Government had not realised the magnitude of the disaster that had befallen India. Well, the papers that had been presented and the statements that had been made on behalf of the Government must have shown, he thought, that the Government of this country and the Government of India did realise to the full the enormous magnitude of the disaster. If they had not recognised for many years the necessity of making preparations for meeting disasters of this kind, the present famine would have attained such a magnitude and been so far-reaching in its consequences, that the mortality would have exceeded any known in similar times in the present century, if not in our history. But the Government had been preparing for such an event for a great many years. When he left India more than ten years ago, preparations had already been made for a long time, founded on the Famine Commission of 1878. So full and thorough had those preparations been I that the moment it was known that over a wide extent of country a great number of people would be exposed to destitution, the most ample remedial machinery was ready to be set in motion by an order of the Government. The hon. Member said that the excessive mortality that occurred in native famines was due to the poverty of the people. They might thank God, however, that up to the present time there had been no excessive mortality in consequence of the scarcity. A correspondent of the Times, writing a few days ago, said that he had been passing through some of the districts visited by the famine, but that he had not come across one single case of death from destitution. That was a most gratifying statement, even if it did not apply to every district. It was certain that up to the present time the deaths had been extremely few, and that happy state of things, as compared with the incidents of former famines, was the result of the preparations made by the Government. The hon. Member declared that a single year of scarcity caused deaths by millions. In the present case, however, it had not caused deaths by even thousands or hundreds. The hon. Member also said that starvation would be prevented if the cultivators could have stores of food, and of course if they possessed such stores they would be able to withstand for a considerable time the results of the failure of their ordinary crops. But it was manifestly impossible for the poor cultivators to have the necessary stores, for they lived from hand to month. But was their poverty greater than in past times? The assertions of the hon. Member on that point were unsupported, and as a matter of fact the ryots were better off now than formerly. The hon. Member affirmed that a great part of their destitution was duo to their indebtedness to moneylenders, and that that indebtedness was caused by their taxation. It was true that the cultivators were indebted to the money-lenders, but the extent of that indebtedness was not as great as it was half a century ago, or at the time when the British Government undertook the administration of the Peishwa's territories. From an analysis prepared at that time it appeared that two-thirds of the population were at one time indebted to moneylenders, but when he left India, not more than one-fifth were so indebted. The Government of India and the local Governments had directed their attention to this evil for many years. As a result of the inquiry made by the Deccan Agricultural Ryots' Commission legislation was promoted to relieve the people from the consequences of their indebtedness. Courts of conciliation were founded on Eastern ideas, and they to a great extent had prevented the impoverishment of the ryot owing to his incautious indebtedness, and had made the money-lender more careful. The Government of India had extended that system, and by irresistible evidence it had been shown that it had improved the material condition of the people. He said without fear of disproof that the system of land assessment which had for many years been pursued in India was more fair than the old system. The ryot only paid according to the capacity of the land, and until the last severe famine in Southern India, the amount of revenue not collected was altogether unimportant. He was surprised to hear it said that the native system of collecting in kind was preferable and more fair. That system had been abandoned, because it was found to be so oppressive and so troublesome to the people. Native chiefs had told him that they were most glad the old system had been abolished, because it was so full of abuses and so oppressive to the people. He had himself seen the grain brought into fenced enclosures so that the people could not touch it until the agent of the State came round, took his proportion, and carried it away. If the agent was not honest he exacted bribes from the people to measure their grain in such a way as to let them off more easily, and under that system the number of petty exactions were infinite. To restore the system of payment in kind would therefore be to restore a crop of abuses from which most happily they had rescued the people. [Cheers.] Something had been said as to India's immense capabilities. We had been developing those capabilities by carefully selected public works, and if the present terrible disaster did not result in India's great impoverishment, it was because by carefully selected measures and public works we had for many years past been setting up the surest and most effective system of famine relief. Since he went to Bombay in 1880 the railways of India had been doubled. It might now be truly said that there was no place in the tracts of country now threatened with the famine which was more than 50 miles from a railway station. In former times of famine it was impossible to throw grain into the country because the water springs had dried up, and the other possible means of transport was not available because pack animals could not travel through the country. But now the grain, through the natural operation of commerce, flowed to the threatened districts like water running down a hill. We had besides constructed enormous irrigation works. When he was in Bombay they constructed three enormous systems of irrigation, each system irrigating a hundred miles of country. In those parts of the country where in 1877 no green blade was seen, now enormous tracts of crops were to be found independent of a rainfall. It could not be said, therefore, that nothing had been done to develop the resources and capabilities of India and to give reasonable help to the ryots. The House also knew that the assessments were not harsh. They were carefully regulated according to the capabilities of the soil, and in such a time of scarcity as the present the assessments due to the State were suspended with no sparing hand. The Government of India and the Secretary of State were in possession of the most exhaustive reports, and the library of the House was full of the results of previous inquiries into the circumstances mentioned by the hon. Baronet. In addition to that there was abundant proof that the inquiries had not been undertaken in vain. Every possible means had been taken to relieve the necessities of the people of India, and to enable the Government of India to meet this great crisis without damage to the people. ["Hear, hear!"]

commented on the divergence of views entertained by men of large experience in Indian affairs as in itself a proof that some further inquiry was needed. The right hon. Baronet referred to the inquiry asked for as a wide and far-reaching inquiry; but his hon. Friend made it clear that the inquiry he asked for was to be a limited one in extent and scope. Neither the Government nor hon. Gentlemen opposite would deem it to be unfitting at this time to bring the question before the House of Commons. It would be of some value to know that the attention of Parliament had been drawn to the condition of India at present. These famines formed a terrible incident in Indian history, and to whatever extent the Indian Government was able to improve these matters by taking precautionary measures and in spending money to prevent the recurrence of these scourges, he thought it was well for the House to show its keen sympathy with the Government of India in the efforts they were making. They should keep themselves closely in touch with the condition of the Indian people and their special relation to the recurrence of these famines. In the famine of 20 years ago he found that £11,000,000 were spent in relief works and that there were on one occasion at that time no fewer than 2,590,000 persons in India obtaining relief from the Famine Fund. Five and a half millions of the Indian people died from famine on that occasion, and £700,000 had been generously given by Great Britain towards the famine. He feared from the reports in the newspapers and the information given by the Secretary of State that the state of matters in India at present was approaching the seriousness of the famine of 1877–8. At present, according to the noble Lord, 136,000 square miles, with a population of 37,000,000, were affected—quite as large a number as were affected in 1877–8—while the number of Indian people receiving relief was on January 22nd, 1,750,000. Those facts proved that although we had not arrived at the pitch of disaster reached in India 20 years ago, there were undoubted elements of seriousness in the present position. In order to provide against such scourges in future they must ask themselves what had been done in the past. Now, 16 years ago, after the great famine, a Commission was appointed to inquire into the condition of India. That Commission recommended that a Famine Fund should be started of £1,500,000 a year and extra taxation was imposed on the Indian people for the purpose of raising the money. The idea was that the money should be stored up for the specific purpose of providing for future famines. In 10 years this would amount to £15,000,000, and so this might be borrowed on its security without placing the country in a worse position financially than 10 years ago. Were they in a position to-day to say that that had been done? No one knew how in the main the money had been expended. Part of it had gone in the Afghan War. He held a strong opinion that, whether war occurred or not, that Famine Fund should be left untouched. It was also clear, from the accounts, that the money had not been allocated as intended. Of the total sum which had been raised only 2 per cent. had been devoted to the special purpose of famine relief. On irrigation works—which he at once admitted was an essentian object—10 per cent. of the funds had been expended; on railways, 60 per cent., while 18 per cent. had been devoted to the reduction of debt. He could not help regretting that on the occasion for a desire being expressed to found a Mansion House Relief Fund, the Secretary of State found it impossible at once to concur in the suggestion. In the Report of the Commission, which was directly referred to in the Dispatch of the noble Lord, it was pointed out that the people of India had a profound sense of their duty to help their friends and relations in times of distress, and that this profound sense of duty made it unnecessary to provide any State aid for poor relief. But that very fact made it all the more necessary that in times of extraordinary distress we should come to the rescue of our Indian fellow-subjects generously and without delay. For the reasons he had stated, he contended that it was desirable to have the inquiry asked for, in order to obtain further and fuller information as to whether the steps recommended by the Commission which eat in 1880 had been carried out, and whether those recommendations were adequate to the changed condition of India, and also whether the administration of the Famine Fund which issued out of that inquiry had proved satisfactory or otherwise.

said the views expounded by the hon. Baronet in his speech had been so fully answered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for N. E. Manchester that there was nothing left for him on that score to say except to express his concurrence with every word the right hon. Gentleman had uttered, and also emphatically to bear out his statement that the payment in cash from the ryots had proved a success as compared with the old system of payment in kind. The object, however, with which he had undertaken to trouble the House was to point out the mischievous effect that would be produced in India by the acceptance of the Amendment. He did not pretend to represent the whole of India, as, perhaps, the hon. Baronet the Member for Banff wished the House to believe that he did—[cheers and laughter]—and he was not an influential member of that microscopic body the British Indian Committee. [Laughter.] But he would say that the mischievous effect of the hon. Baronet's Amendment would be more far-reaching than was supposed by the hon. Baronet. ["Hear, hear!"] At the present time the Government in India—whether it was the Supreme or the Provincial Government—were doing their best to meet and cope with difficulties which were not due to human deficiencies, but which represented the visitation of Providence. To take advantage of such an occasion, and indirectly to cast a slur on Governments which were valiantly and actively coping with the difficulty, was, to say the least of it, not to show gratitude for services which were undoubtedly entitled to recognition by the House of Commons and the British nation. [Cheers.]

I must point out that I cast no slur on the Government. I even said that India would be grateful for the exertions which were being made.

said that he had heard of three cheers being given for the Queen at meetings full of disloyal sentiment. [Laughter and cheers.] The hon. Baronet's Amendment was practically a vote of censure, not only on the Government of India but upon the India Office and all the provincial Governments. The hon. Baronet said that the people of India would be grateful for what had been done, while in the same breath he charged the authorities with neglecting a most elementary duty. [Cheers.] The hon. Baronet said that his Amendment contained self-evident propositions; but the whole tenour of the Amendment, and the manner it which it was proposed, were simply calculated to advertise a certain class of agitators, who were never tired of impressing upon the people of India the inadequacy of British rule and the want of sympathy between the rulers and the ruled. [Cheers.] The hon. Baronet said that he was uttering the sentiments expressed by Indian public opinion. Where had Indian public opinion called for this inquiry? [Cheers.] Had not that opinion been manufactured in a small room, not far from the House of Commons; sent out thence to India; brought back in the form of newspaper articles; and passed off on the House of Commons as the public opinion of three hundred millions of people? [Cheers and laughter.] These proceedings were not worthy of one who had been a Member of the Government of India, and who was now a Member of the House of Commons. [Cheers.] To show how the innocent-looking Amendment of the hon. Baronet had a bearing on proceedings afar off, he would read a sentence from an Indian newspaper which had arrived by the last mail. The Chairman of the National Congress, of which the hon. Baronet was so fond, and which he was always trotting before the House—[laughter]—said—

"that the famine was a reason not for holding no Session this year, but rather for persisting in and holding it and making it as grand as possible, for these miseries of India were due to the grievances of which the Congress had been agitating the redress."

That was to say, that the want of rain on India was due to the grievances of which the agitators had complained. [Cheers and, laughter.] By the next mail news of this Amendment would go to the people of India, who were not, as a rule, acquainted with the procedure of Parliament. The story told to them would be that the great and only friend of India in this House, the hon. Member for Banff—[laughter]—had proposed something by which plague and famine were to be avoided; the Secretary of State, from hardness of heart and want of sympathy, had refused the proposal; and therefore that the right hon. Gentleman and the authority which he represented were the enemies of the people. Knowing this—as the hon. Baronet must know it—and if he did not he was sorry for him—[laughter]—was he right in bringing forward the Amendment at all? The hon. Baronet could not exist without bringing forward some Amendment at the beginning of the Session and again at the end, with a Motion for the Adjournment of the House in between—and all without the sympathy of his own leaders—for the purpose of using poor India as a handle for obstruction of the Government which he did not support. ["Hear, hear!" and cries of "Oh!"] Last year, he remembered, when the opportunity occurred for submitting a Motion with regard to the Cotton Duties, the hon. Baronet told him that he could not undertake it, as he had not studied the question. But at a later day, when every five minutes were valuable, the hon. Baronet chose to bring forward a sickly, paltry Motion—[laughter, and cheers]—on the subject which was quite beside the main issue. And the story that went to India, of course, was that the hon. Baronet had been trying to do some great service to the down-trodden three hundred millions, and that the Secretary of State and the Conservative Party would not hear of it. There was another reason why this Amendment had been brought forth. This great body, the National Congress, with the pure and simple objects of which he was in perfect agreement—[Opposition cries of "Oh!"]—but with the motives and methods of which he certainly quarrelled, was mixed up with it. The Congress was represented by a microscopic body called the British India Committee, which gathered up a few schoolboys studying for the Bar—[laughter]—and the great lights of which were the hon. Member for Banff and the other hon. Gentleman whom his constituents would not again return. [Laughter.] This Committee, in confidential letters which somehow became public, applied to the Congress to be supplied with the hard cash without which it could not carry on its great work in, Parliament. And when this appeal for hard cash was not responded to, the Committee, by measures such as this Amendment, tried to impress its importance and its existence on the people of India. The complaint of this Committee was, "We have piped unto you, and ye will not dance; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." [Laughter.] He hoped it was the last time that he should have the painful duty of protesting against these manœuvres, which did no good to India, and promoted dissatisfaction in the place of the gratitude for which the British Government had established a claim on the Indian people. [Cheers.] He wished to express the great satisfaction and contentment which prevailed in India in relation to the measures which had been adopted to arrest the great disaster and famine. Through the length and breadth of India there was gratitude to the British nation for coming forward so liberally to meet the needs of India. He was expressing the sincere and heartfelt satisfaction which he had heard and witnessed throughout the country to the British nation at large. [Cheers.]

said it was not difficult to find the cause for the splenetic utterance of the hon. Member who had just sat down. The hon. Gentleman had recently returned from India, where he had gone with the expectation that he would be received with the same outburst of popular enthusiasm that had greeted Mr. Naoroji, but his mission had been a complete fiasco.

That is a perfect fiction. [Laughter.]

repeated that all the popular demonstrations the hon. Gentleman expected in India had failed to come off. A people, whether they were four millions or three hundred millions, knew their friends, and it was absurd to contend that a small body of men could have engineered the receptions which had been given to Mr. Naoroji. ["Hear, hear!"] It must be admitted that in the administration of a country with 300,000,000 of people many questions arose which ought to be brought to the ear of the House of Commons, and as the opportunities for discussing Indian matters were few and far between, he thought his hon. Friend the Member for Banffshire was well advised in moving his Amendment to the Address. He was glad that, so far as the objects of the Indian Congress were concerned, they had the full sympathy of the hon. Member for Bethnal Green. Those Members of the House who were members of the Congress were in some respects but the mouthpiece of the facts and details and figures sent to them from India. [Ministerial ironical cheers] He did not see how anyone could find fault with the Amendment. Of course no supporter of the Amendment expected that the Government could regulate the weather, which was the great cause of famine in India; but an inquiry might lead to the devising of means for ameliorating the sad condition of millions of the people of that country.

The speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Banffshire was a great surprise to me. It is impossible to reconcile the hon. Member's speech with the Amendment he asks the House to accept. The Amendment asks

"that a free and independent Inquiry shall forthwith be made into the condition of the masses of the Indian people."

At the present moment the Government of India are engaged in what is universally admitted to be one of the most enormous and difficult tasks that has ever been imposed upon the Indian Administration on behalf of suffering humanity, and one which imposes a strain upon the whole administrative machinery of the country that it can scarcely stand. And yet the hon. Baronet comes down to the House and proposes that a certain portion of the forces of the Indian Government which are now warring against the advances of famine and plague shall be removed from the region of action to the region of speculation, and required to devote their attention not to the consequences of famine but to the causes of famine. [Ministerial cheers.] A more inopportune moment for such a proposal could not be imagined. Let the hon. Baronet reflect on the meaning of his Amendment. It asks for a full inquiry into the condition of the masses of the people of India. The masses of the Indian people constitute one-fifth the total population of the globe. This inquiry would enable every single act of the whole administration of India—judicial, administrative, and financial—to be brought under the survey of the persons conducting the investigation. They would be enabled to go also into every custom, tradition, or habit of these 300,000,000 of people, and to discuss even every variety of their married life from polygamy to polyandry. [Laughter.] A more vital and far-reaching, inquiry could not be conceived. ["Hear, hear!"] I am glad to be able to say that the hon. Baronet made a more sensible speech than I thought would have been possible on such an Amendment, and he advanced some practical suggestions. But what the House has to consider is the Amendment before it. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green—who made a very effective and proper speech on the Amendment—that this Amendment emanates from the National Indian Congress. That body never loses an opportunity of attacking the Indian Administration and of endeavouring to diminish the influence of that Administration over the people of India. They passed a resolution in reference to the action taken by the Indian Government to mitigate the Indian Famine. Every-one knows that the Government of India are leaving nothing undone to cope with that calamity. I say the forces of civilisation were never better organised than they are now to fight against pestilence and famine—["Hear, hear!"]—and those gentlemen who meet in the Indian Congress know that no native rulers ever attempted to oppose the advance of famine on so large and so successful a scale as the English rulers of India are doing now. [Ministerial cheers.] Yet those gentlemen find fault with all that has been done; and they insist upon a national appeal to the country, which, however, they do not seem inclined to initiate themselves. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green, who has just come back from India, vigorously attacks the policy of the Indian Congress. I am glad he makes a strong protest against the absurd assumption of a number of gentlemen, who, as has just been admitted, take all their facts and figures from India without analysing them, and arrogate to themselves the representation of millions of the people of India. [Ministerial cheers.] There never was a more preposterous claim; the hon. Member for Bethnal Green, who has the confidence of many sections of the Indian community—I do not suppose he claims to represent them all [laughter]—has effectively ridiculed it. ["Hear, hear!"]

Will the right hon. Gentleman read the resolution of the Indian Congress to which he objects?

Yes; it is the following resolution:

"Resolved,—This congress deplores the outbreak of famine in a more or less acute form throughout India, and holds that this and other famines which have occurred in recent years are due to the great poverty of the people, brought on by the drain of the wealth of the country, which has been going on for years together, and by the excessive taxation and over assessment consequent on a policy of extravagance followed by the Government, both in the civil and the military Departments, which has so far impoverished the people, that at the first touch of scarcity they are rendered helpless and must perish unless fed by the State or helped by private charity. In the opinion of this congress the true remedy against the recurrence of famine lies in the adoption of a policy which would enforce economy, husband the resources of the State, and foster the development of indigenous and local arts and industries, which have practically been extinguished, and help the introduction of modern arts and industries. In the meantime the congress would remind the Government of its solemn duty to save human life and mitigate human suffering (the provisions of the existing famine code being in the opinion of the congress inadequate as regards wages, rations, and oppressive as regards task work), and would appeal to the Government to redeem its pledges by restoring the famine insurance fund (keeping a separate account of it) to its original footing, and to apply it more largely to its original purpose—viz., the immediate relief of the famine-stricken people."

Everyone that was at the Congress must know that that resolution is both ungracious and ungrateful. [Ministeriel cheers.] The next resolution calls

"the attention of the Government to the deplorable condition of the poorer classes in India, full 40 millions of whom, according to high official authority, drag; out a miserable existence on the verge of starvation even in normal years,"

and suggests that they should be exempted from the payment of income taxes. I do not, therefore, wonder that the hon. Member for Bethnal Green should enter a vigorous protest against this preposterous assumption on the part of a committee sitting in England, and I am certain that when his speech is read in India, it will be acceptable to very large masses of the people of that country. ["Hear, hear!"] Now, Sir, the hon. Baronet seemed to indicate that if the inquiry was made and effect given to the recommendations of such a body, it would be possible to stop famine in India. I contest that altogether. It is much better to look facts in the face. An hon. Member who supported him described famines as terrible and inevitable incidents in India. I thought that was a happy expression. Famines are terrible and inevitable incidents. I think it is a mistake, and is wrong for any Member of this House to hold out the hope that any remedies which he can suggest can prevent famines from desolating India. What is the problem we have to face? There are 300 millions of people in India, and over 80 per cent. of these are entirely dependent on agriculture. The one industry upon which they subsist is agriculture, and wherever a great community is entirely dependent on one industry, and whenever the raw material of that industry fails, you cannot avoid great distress and famine itself. Rain is the raw material which is essential to agriculture in the East, and whenever rain fails, not only is there great scarcity of food, but there is a total cessation of employment. In this country there are many diverse trades and industries, but wherever you have a community which is entirely dependent on one industry, and if the raw material of that industry fails, there must be intense distress. Take the cotton famine in Lancashire, that affected probably the richest community in the United Kingdom; but because everybody there was deprived of the raw material great distress ensued. Therefore so long as India remains a purely agricultural country, and so long as agriculture depends on rain falling within certain periods, when rain does not fall then distress must be widespread and great. And on the present occasion the difficulty with which we are dealing is one of a very exceptional character. It is not, as the Amendment indicates, the first attack of famine with which we are now dealing. The hon. Baronet's Amendment suggests that the masses of the Indian people are helpless to resist even the first attacks of famine and pestilence. I repeat that the hon. Baronet knows that this famine now occurs owing to a total failure of rain on the top of a number of bad seasons, and that is what makes the position so serious. I do not believe that any famine has occurred of which we have any record in which there has been so wide an area of scarcity over a district so large, and where very high prices now prevail. I am glad to say that there is an enormous improvement in the machinery of the Government by which they can conquer famine. I happened to be Under Secretary for India, and spokesman for India in this House in 1874, 1877 and 1878, and it is most gratifying to notice how the Indian Government and people have developed and improved all their machinery for dealing with these evils. I do not know if any Member of this House has looked at the Famine Code which is at the end of the Return which I have laid on the Table of the House. It is well worth studying; it is a masterly document, which has been in the course of preparation for many years, and certainly shows with extraordinary clearness and detail how the forces available to cope with famine are mobilised. I am glad to say it shows that we are much better able to combat the effects of famine now than ever before. I go so far as to say that if we had had to deal with the present difficulty 20 years ago, the mortality that is already reported would have been enormously increased. Whilst on this subject I should just like to notice one or two observations which the hon. Member for Denbigh made in reference to the Famine Fund. It happened that I was Under Secretary at the time the Famine Fund was established, and all the papers relating to the subject presented to the House at that time bear my name, and I cannot understand how any body of gentlemen can go on repeating that there has been any infraction of the promise made by the Indian Government in regard to that fund. The hon. Member for Manchester has explained how these charges are made; they are founded on statements coming from India, the accuracy of which is not tested by the gentlemen who make use of them here. Sir John Strachey never established a Famine Insurance Fund in the sense which the hon. Gentleman described. The position of affairs at that time was financially somewhat difficult. Since India had been transferred to the Crown there was always difficulty in establishing an equilibrium between income and expenditure; and then occurred a series of famines which entailed upon the Government a net outlay exceeding 15 millions. It is quite clear that if the Government had every ten years to spend 15 millions on famines, as was estimated to be necessary, financially they were in a very unsound position. And therefore Sir John Strachey endeavoured to increase the resources at the disposal of the Government by imposing a certain amount of taxation, and he proposed by an ingenious contrivance to raise an insurance fund which in the first year he estimated would amount to £1,500,000, or a crore and a half of rupees. But he never undertook in any way that this should be a statutory Famine Fund, and that the money should be placed in a, box and allowed to accumulate; on the contrary, right throughout his speech he combated that view. He went further. He was a man of exceptional ability and of rare administrative experience, and he knew perfectly well, what any man in this House knows, that if in a particular year you Try to appropriate a certain sum annually to a specific purpose, emergencies may; afterwards occur which will prevent the money being so appropriated. It has happened over and over again in this House. I recollect a Bill brought in by which 28 millions sterling was annually voted in payment of debt and as provision for a sinking fund. Circumstances occurred under which it was necessary to reduce that provision, but nobody-contended that there was any gross breach of faith. Sir John Strachey, to make it clear that under certain conditions this money might not go to the specific purpose, used very plain language, I which has never been quoted in full. He described how he proposed to give effect to this intention. "It is," he said, "the firm intention of the present Government to apply the funds now to be provided for this special purpose strictly to the exclusive objects which they were designed to secure." Those words are always quoted and circulated, and the last sentence, which I shall presently read, is also quoted, but the intervening part is always omitted:—

"In such matters, no doubt, Governments cannot fetter their successors, and nothing that we could now say or do would prevent the application of this fund to other purposes. Without thinking of a future far removed from us, events might, of course, happen which would render it impracticable even for us, who have designed these measures, to maintain our present resolutions."

He, of course, had in contemplation the emergency of a war or a similar difficulty.

"So far, however, as we can new speak for the future, the Government of India intends to keep this million and a half as an insurance against famine alone. In saying this I should explain that we do not contemplate the constitution of any separate statutory fund, as such a course would be attended with many useless and inconvenient complications, without giving any real security. Unless, then, it should be proved hereafter by experience that the annual appropriation of a smaller sum from our revenues will give to the country the protection which it requires, we consider that the estimates of every year ought to make provision for religiously applying the sum I have mentioned to this sole purpose, and I hope that no desire to carry out any administrative improvement, however urgent, or any fiscal reform, however wise, will tempt the Government to neglect this sacred trust."'

["Hear, hear!"] Not a farthing of this money has ever been appropriated to carry out any administrative improvement or fiscal reform. ["Hear, hear!"] Since that fund was established a very large sum has gone to the prevention of famine throughout the country. Of course, it would have been useless to put so much in one box by itself and to add to the debt by borrowing an equivalent amount. In the same way, during the time when the exchange value of the rupee fell very heavily, the Government were compelled to make a reduction in the amount which applied to the famine insurance, but the outcome of the arrangement is that after 20 years the Government are able to say that they have realised two-thirds of Sir John Strachey's most sanguine expectations. Two-thirds of the maximum amount which he proposed to devote to famine insurance has been so applied. I will undertake to say that any statesman or financier who is able to frame a scheme which is liable to be affected by nearly all emergencies and yet who at the end of 20 years has realised two-thirds of his most sanguine expectations is a most successful administrator, and no allegation ought to be made either against him or against his successors for breach of faith. I do think it is desirable that this matter should be made clear once for all. No famine fund in the sense suggested by the hon. Gentleman was ever established. Sir John Strachey from first to last maintained that the object of this fund was, if possible, to reduce the debt, and he concluded his last speech in words which exactly describe the present position of the Indian Government:—

"I think, my lord," he said, "that I have now made it sufficiently clear how we propose to apply the £1,500,000 which we hope to provide as an insurance against famine. We shall apply it virtually to the reduction of debt; and when the calamity of famine actually arrives we hope not only to he able to meet it without throwing fresh burdens upon the country, but to find that our means of giving efficient relief have been immensely increased by the useful works which we have carried out in the preceding years of prosperity."

That is exactly the position of the Indian Government at this moment. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Gentleman asked me how the necessary funds were to be provided for the cost of the famine. I am glad to say that the Indian Government are in no want of funds. If it had not been for the catastrophe of the present famine we had hoped that there would have been a large surplus this year, and we should have hoped that we might have then been able to remit certain portions of the existing taxation of India, but in view of the expenditure which will be caused by the exceptional difficulties of the present situation, there will, no doubt, be a deficit at the close of this year. The position of the Indian Government to meet emergencies is immeasurably stronger than it was 20 years ago. The hon. Baronet states that the great mass of the people of India have deteriorated, and are now less able than they were to meet pestilence and famine. I say there is not one iota of evidence in support of that. All the facts point the other way. If the hon. Baronet will look at the reports of independent witnesses on the various relief works, notably those in the Punjab, he will see that, by universal concurrence, it is admitted that the people are now able to meet emergencies in a way they could not years ago. From the papers laid before Parliament it will be found that in the North-West Provinces the people are fighting against the exigencies of the present situation with a courage and confidence never before shown. [Cheers.] Whatever test you apply to India as a whole you will find that the community have prospered, and that the mass of people are better off than was the case 20 years ago. But I admit that there is one side of the problem which requires attention—namely, the enormous increase that has taken place in the population of India. The House is, perhaps, not aware that during the last 20 years the population of British India has increased by 50 millions. A certain proportion of the increase is due to annexation, but the greater portion consists of an ordinary and legitimate addition to the normal population. Scarcity of food, to a certain extent, always prevails in certain parts of India, and also a considerable amount of pestilence and disease which affects mortality in other parts. Yet the Government of India have so managed affairs during the last 20 years that the population in that country has been able to increase more than in any other part of the world. Of course, there is always in India an enormous class of people which exists entirely upon charity and which has done so from time immemorial. But contrasting the present condition of affairs with that of 20 years ago, I say the people are better able to withstand emergencies of the present kind than they were then. Twenty years ago a Commission was appointed to inquire into the methods which had been adopted to avert famine, and it made reports and suggestions which formed the basis of the present Famine Code. Therefore, the Government are in a better position, as protectors of the people against famine, than they have ever been before. I agree with the hon. Baronet that the opportunity this famine affords ought not to be allowed to pass without our taking every opportunity to inquire into and ascertaining the best methods of protecting the people of India from the recurrence of similar calamities. No doubt the reports which will be made by the Local Governments and received by the Viceroy will contain suggestions in, various directions and suggest improvements. If the Government do their part, may I suggest that the hon. Baronet might do his? He informed us that one of the great evils of the present day in India was the manner in which moneylenders made use of Civil Courts. But they are represented in the Indian National Congress. [Laughter.] If the hon. Baronet will be good enough to exercise his influence to try and induce them to make humane exercise of the Courts of Law it may add to the effect of his appeal. I think I have shown that there is no need for the House to accept the Amendment. All the hon. Baronet proposes will be done by the Government itself, and I think if the House were to accept the Amendment it would cause great surprise in India and be interpreted there as a censure not only on the Indian Government but upon the Government at home. [Cheers.]

I am sure the House and the country will agree that the first duty of Parliament in this crisis is to support to the utmost of its power, morally and in other modes, the Government of India in fighting this gigantic contest against two great calamities which are almost overpowering that country at the present time. The Government of India is confronted by a terrible famine and a terrible plague, and I think certainly there is no period in modern Indian history when the Government was confronted by two foes of such magnitude at the same time. Whatever differences of opinion there may be as to minor points, our first duty is to strengthen the Administration in carrying out, as I believe they are carrying out with the greatest ability, the work now before them. [Cheers.] I should not have intervened in this Debate except on one ground, and that is that there has been an amount of misconception and misunderstanding with reference to the Famine Insurance Fund, which cannot be too soon or completely explained away. We see and hear ugly words—and if they are ugly words in England they will be still more ugly words when translated into the vernacular in India—to the effect that the Government of India—not merely the Viceroy and his Council or the Secretary of State and his Council, but the British Parliament—have all been guilty of what has been called a breach of trust—an abandonment of a sacred trust—that something has been done with public money that ought not to have been done. That I know to be an absolutely groundless impression—[cheers]—which ought to be removed. My hon. Friend the Member for Denbigh indicated what I may call the prevailing impression by apportioning in various percentages the appropriation which had been made of the fund. He stated that two per cent. had gone in relief of famine; 60 per cent. in the construction of railways (which he thought a large proportion); and the remainder in the reduction of debt, to which he took exception. As the noble Lord has explained to the House, the Famine Insurance Fund is the surplus revenue. It is nothing more nor less than a sinking fund. An assumed surplus of Rx.1,500,000 was to be applied in four distinct ways—first, in the relief of any existing famine in the year in which the money was raised; secondly, in the construction of irrigation works for the prevention of famine; thirdly, and principally, in the construction of those protective railway works (to which the right hon. Baronet, who was formerly Governor of Bombay, has alluded) which were intended to alter the state of things which caused such a calamity in 1877—namely, the impossibility of conveying food actually in existence to the parts of the country that needed it; and, fourthly, it was to be applied to the reduction of the Indian Debt. Why? Upon the very principle—to which the former and present Chancellors of the Exchequer have called attention—of the Sinking Fund of this country. By paying six millions a year towards the reduction of the National Debt the Chancellor of the Exchequer put into the hands of the Executive Government of the day a power of borrowing in case of emergency equivalent to the capital value of that fund. Therefore, the paying off five or six millions of debt means that, supposing the present calamity required it, the Indian Government would be in a position to borrow nearly six millions, practically without adding to the debt of India. The noble Lord told us what Sir John Strachey said when the scheme was propounded. I will read what he has written within the last two years on this question, after having seen the working of the scheme:—

"This policy of insurance against famine was simple in its nature, but it has been constantly misunderstood. It has often been supposed that a separate fund was constituted, into which certain revenues were to be paid, and which could only be drawn upon for a specified purpose. No such impracticable notion was ever entertained, and every idea of the kind was from the first repudiated by the Government and by myself who was responsible for the original scheme. The 'Famine Insurance Fund' of which people have often talked never existed. The intention was nothing more than the annual application of surplus revenue to the extent of Rx. 1,500,000 to the purposes that I have described. Financial pressure has sometimes made it impossible to make the full annual grant under the famine insurance scheme, but substantially the system has been successfully maintained."

That is the story of the "Famine Insurance Fund," and if Sir James Westland's financial statement of a year ago is referred to, it will be seen how much revenue has been set aside for this purpose. During the 15 years the fund has been in existence Rx.17,614,185 has been appropriated to it, and only in a small number of years has there been any reduction in the surplus. In the years 1881–2–3–4–5 the whole amount was appropriated; in 1887–8 the amount was suspended. In 1889 it was reduced to one million; in 1890 it was one million; in 1891 it came back to one and a-half million; in 1892–93 it was one and a-half million; in 1894 it was £1,489,000, and last year, by the Act of the Legislature—the wise Act, I think—the amount was reduced from one and a-half million to one million. I do not wish to weary the House, but I should like to give hon. Members the facts of the fund. There has been applied in actual famine relief, £312,000; in the construction of irrigation works, £800,000; in the construction of protective railways, about ten millions; and in the payment of debt, over five millions. And Sir Charles Elliott, the late Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal, who was the secretary of this Famine Insurance Fund, and knew all about it, after expressing, in words even stronger than those I have quoted from Sir John Strachey, the utter delusion as to there being any separate fund in existence, and that the Government had no other object in view than the construction of these protective works and paying off the debt, calls attention to the magnificent irrigation works to which the hon. Baronet has already alluded, and which have been constructed between 1870 and to-day. I venture to say that there is no parallel for it in the history of the world. [Cheers.] No Government has ever constructed such magnificent works as have been constructed in India for the protection of that country against famine. [Cheers.] Then as to the railway system of India. There have been something like 10,000 miles of railway constructed over the period which I have mentioned, and Sir Charles Elliott says, with reference to 5,000 of those miles, that they were demanded exclusively almost for the purpose of protection against famine, and he shows how every one of those railways which were mentioned in the Famine Insurance Fund Commission has been constructed and completed, with the solitary exception of the East Coast Railway, which, I believe, is now in hand under the noble Lord's administration and rapidly approaching to an end. Of course we are entitled to have our differences of opinion. I have strong opinion of the goodness of the Government of India. Some of my hon. Friends do not think it so good as I do. I think it a wise, a strong, and an economical Government—[Ministerial cheers]—a Government which has conferred upon India untold blessings. [Ministerial cheers.] I do not believe in what is called "the economic drain" from India. That is rather a favourite phrase in the present day, and I do not perhaps accurately understand its meaning. No money is sent from India to this country which does not either repay the interest upon capital which has been sent from this country to India, and which has been employed in the construction of the works which have been such a great boon to the people, or in payment of services amply and richly deserved by the English Government in carrying on the government of India. [Cheers.] I fully appreciate—the House knows that perfectly well—the very heavy drain upon India by the depreciation in the value of the rupee, but Sir John Strachey, in the book from which I have already quoted, says that the cash advantage to the people for whose use these railways have been constructed is something between 50 and 60 millions sterling per annum. I think the entire loss to India upon these railways, which entirely arises from the depreciation in the value of silver—because if we were still at the old rate of ten rupees to the sovereign there is a large profit—is something like two and a-half millions of tens of rupees. That represents "the economic drain" from India in respect of these large works. ["Hear, hear!"] Whatever our differences of opinion may be, I think we shall all concur in thinking that the Government of India, supported by the Government at home, are doing the very utmost to grapple with this calamity. I have myself gathered, from what the noble Lord has said, that he is perfectly satisfied with the effect of these protective works in preventing loss of life. It does seem to me very gratifying that no loss of life has yet occurred, and I think it is the duty of the Government to prevent any human being, any subject of the Queen in India, losing his life from starvation. ["Hear, hear!"] Then, I think, when you have passed the starvation limit and come to compassionate relief, that is the sphere for private charity. I take this opportunity of saying that I hope the Government of India have not closed their minds finally as to the question of an Imperial contribution—[cheers]—not to the national relief fund, but to the Indian Exchequer. I understood the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury to say that the time has not yet arrived to consider that question. I quite agree with him, but if it should prove to be the fact, notwithstanding the surplus of which the noble Lord has spoken, that this famine will entail, as I am afraid it will, a very considerable charge upon the revenues of India, for the loss from the land revenue will be considerable, I think that is the time for this House, and I am sure this House will be really representing the people of the country, in the same spirit in which it made a contribution in the case of the Afghan war to the Indian Exchequer, to make an Imperial contribution to the Exchequer of India in aid of the taxation of India. ["Hear, hear!"] It would be in relief of the whole people of India, and it would be a sum given by the whole people of Great Britain. [Cheers.] It would not, in my opinion, in any way interfere with private charity. I am only throwing that out as a suggestion, as a hope that the Government have not I finally made up their minds as to this matter. There is one other suggestion I would make to the noble Lord. It is in reference to the question whether the money paid at the relief works is entirely in cash. I would suggest whether it would not be desirable—perhaps this is an economic heresy—to consider, though it was an unfortunate word to use, the introduction of something in the nature of the Truck Act there, so that you could pay these poor people on these relief works in grain instead of money. The object of that would be to prevent grain being forced up to an extreme price by competition. I believe the noble Lord is perfectly sound in the view that he took that it, is not the duty of the country to buy and sell grain; but I would suggest whether, as in this country, under our administration of the Poor Law, a certain amount of relief is given in kind, a certain amount could not be given in India in these cases. It is quite certain the Government could buy at a much lower rate than the poor people themselves could buy, and perhaps of a better quality too. I apologise to the House for having detained it so long. [Cheers.] I hope my hon. Friend will not put the House to the trouble of dividing upon this question, and will withdraw his Amendment, which can have no practical value at the present time, and which would be very much misunderstood in India if it were pased. ["Hear, hear!"] It will be much better to send forth a united message to the people of India that this House, representing the people of Great Britain, will do all it can in order to mitigate those two terrible calamities which are now devastating the country. [General cheers.]

said he had heard with very great pleasure the expression of opinion of the right hon. Gentleman that this country should in case of need give a national contribution to the Indian Exchequer. His noble Friend in his speech referred to the way in which the Indian Government was at present enabled to meet the expenses of the famine, and he said that there was no need of money, but at the same time he pointed out the very great pressure that would be brought to bear upon the finances of India. He (Mr. Maclean) thought they ought not to underrate the immense amount of pressure that was going to be brought to bear upon those finances. The famine would cost the country a good many millions of money. There would be a very heavy loss in land revenue alone, and they knew that in the last year or two the Indian Government had had to impose fresh taxation in order to make both ends meet. Now if there was a deficit of several millions of money owing to the famine, how was the Indian Government going to find the money except by fresh taxation? He did not in any way join with those who always talked about British rule having impoverished India, but he did maintain that of late years England had pressed too hardly upon the finances of India; that to a certain extent India had been impoverished, and unfairly so, by the very great burden cast upon the taxpayers of India, in maintaining such an extensive scheme of frontier defence as they were called upon to support. That frontier had been extended for many thousands of miles, and millions of money had been taken from the taxpayers in the plains in order to pay the cost of that vast scheme of frontier defences, and so when misfortune fell upon the country at large, those taxpayers were not so well able to pay their way as they would otherwise have been able to do. He had always maintained that this enormous frontier defence scheme of India, which Lord Roberts told them would not be complete until they had extended the railways to Cabul and Candahar, ought to have had some support from the Imperial Government, and in that way the people of India had some real claim upon the people of this country for assistance. He hoped the Government would listen, when the time came, to an application from the Indian Government for a national grant from the Imperial Treasury. The First Lord of the Treasury said he believed there was no precedent for anything of the kind, but there was a famous phrase of Burke's, "that the opportunity for a real statesman is when the file affords no precedent." That was his opportunity for showing what a wise and magnanimous statesman could do. He believed if this occasion were seized upon to impress upon the people of India the readiness of this country to come to the help of the poor taxpayers of that country when they were sorely pressed, it would have a most widespread and lasting effect, and gain them the hearts of the Indian people more than any other act of theirs could do. We must remember that however much they collected by the way of private charity, it was very small in comparison with the enormous expenditure that had now become necessary not only on account of the famine, but also on account of the plague. He joined in the encomiums passed on the servants of the Government of India for the efforts they were now making to save life in that country, but while he accorded the highest praise to the district officers, he must say he had seen a certain holding back on the part of the Central Government which he very much regretted, and an attempt to minimise the awful sufferings of the people of India at the present moment. The Governor of the North West Provinces of India, in his admirable despatch of November 23, had said that he was anxious to hold a public meeting for the purpose of obtaining subscriptions from charitable persons in order to meet the distress among the poorer classes which was likely to be caused by the famine and the plague. The Central Government, however, after taking a whole month to consider the subject, came to the conclusion that the time had not yet come when it was necssary to take that course.

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is now discussing the conduct of the Government with reference to the existing famine and plague in India. That is not raised in the Amendment. The Amendment only deals with the predisposing causes of the famine and plague.

said that he thought that as a certain latitude had been allowed to other hon. Members he might be permitted to refer to those subjects which, in his view, were of real moment to the Indian people. He could only deprecate the action of the Government of India in endeavouring to minimise the effects of the famine and plague in that country. It was impossible to exaggerate the horrors which were affecting the people of India as a result of that famine and plague; while he did not hesitate to give credit to the Government for what they were now doing to relieve the distress in India, they ought to look at what was going on with the view of giving India our assistance as a nation. ["Hear, hear!"]

said that he was in India during the famine of 1877–1878. The Indian Government had then created a special famine fund from the proceeds of two new taxes—namely, the income tax and the assessed taxes. At that time Sir John Strachey, the then Finance Minister, had pledged himself that those taxes should only he imposed for a year, and that their proceeds should he applied only to the relief of the distress caused by the famine. It was pointed out at the time that these new taxes must necessarily cause great pressure upon the people of India, and the only excuse for imposing them was (hat they were to he used for the purpose of creating an insurance fund against the effects of famine. It was urged that it would he most unfair to impose these new taxes upon an impoverished people who had been suffering under a two years' famine. Of course, the assurance that was given by Sir John Strachey at the time that the proceeds of these new taxes should be used for the purpose of a famine insurance fund disarmed opposition to the proposal. The pledge of Sir John Strachey had been followed up by declarations on the part of the Indian Government that the arrangement should be faithfully carried out. The Indian Government were, therefore, fully pledged not to apply the proceeds of these taxes to any other purpose than for the relief of famine. It was, however, now clear that that pledge had been broken, and that the proceeds of these taxes had been used for the purpose of the Afghan and Burmese wars. He recollected that some dozen or 15 years ago he had been Chairman of the British Indian Committee, of which the hon. Member for Bethnal Green had been a member, and had expressed some strong views—

said that there was no such Committee sitting 15 years ago, and that he certainly had never served upon it.

said that the hon. Member must recollect that they were both on the Committee to which he referred.

said that he denied that such was the case.

Order, order! These personal questions are a long way from the, Amendment before us. ["Hear, hear!"]

said that he had only referred to the matter as the hon. Member had made statements which had reflected upon the motives of the hon. Baronet the Member for Banffshire. The noble Lord had practically admitted all that the hon. Baronet had contended for. The noble Lord had asserted that there had been a vast improvement in the condition of the agricultural classes in India during the last 30 years, but that he denied, because, in his opinion the improved condition of India was to be attributed not to agriculture, but to manufactures and commerce. They had now got their own cotton mills in Bombay, and it was by their means that India was becoming prosperous. However successful Indian agriculture might have been some years ago, when the prices of agricultural produce were high, it had suffered greatly in recent years owing to low prices. Another cause of the present prosperity of India was to be found in the development of her coal fields, which enabled Indian manufactures to be carried on with success. He was rather afraid they were poorer to-day, because they were probably much more in debt. He believed the ryots, in some places in the protected States, were more favourably situated than the ryots in places under the British Government—that they had really a higher standard of comfort. The reason of that was that the native Governors considered matter's more carefully than the British Government. The British Government might reasonably be compared to a rack-renting landlord. The people of India and Bombay were practically tenants of the State, and they had been racked by the State, with the result that there was poverty. He did not desire to suggest that the Government would not do all that they possibly could—common humanity demanded that they should; and perhaps the noble Lord was justified in preventing private charity acting earlier. He hoped, however, that if they erred at all they would err by spending too much instead of too little in the endeavour to keep the people alive.

said he had consulted with his hon. Friend the Member for South Mayo, who had undertaken to second the Amendment, and they had come to the conclusion that they would have a wider scope for discussion of the subject upon the Home Office Vote or some other vote in Committee of Supply on the Estimates than under this Amendment. Therefore they had determined not to proceed with the Amendment which stood in his name.

moved the following Amendment, to add at the end of the Question the words:—

"And we humbly express our regret that no Measure is announced by your Majesty for a simplification of the registration laws for Parliamentary and local government elections."

The hon. Member said that, in moving the Amendment, he wished to confine his remarks to the anomalies which prevailed in the working of the Registration Laws as they at present existed, and he had no intention or desire to introduce the larger question of enfranchisement. His object was to induce the Government, if possible, to undertake the work of simplifying the laws of registration in regard to both Local Government and Parliamentary elections. At present there was great confusion and difficulty in dealing with them. For Parliamentary and Local Government Board elections there were no fewer than eight kinds of qualifications, and 22 different ways of becoming qualified. He thought that a mere statement of the anomalies and inconsistencies of the present system would justify the course he had taken in moving the Amendment. The existing Registration Laws, in fact, were so complicated that many persons did not at all understand them, and in consequence neglected or declined to place themselves on the register. In other cases fully-qualified men could not get on the register unless they were looked after by skilled Party agents on either side. And even if a man got on the register he might not be safe, for a change of overseers under present conditions might lead to his removal from it. Indeed, in the absence of any paid official who should be held responsible for seeing that a proper and complete register was kept in every town, no man was safe from being removed from the list at one time or another. A glaring anomaly was that while in a county it was necessary for freeholders to have only a six months' qualification, in a borough twelve months were necessary. Then as regarded succession to freehold property in counties, at the present time a man who succeeded to such property before the appointed day might, if the list was open, be put on the register immediately, although his qualification as to residence was only that of two or three days. This had happened over and over again in the case of beneficed clergymen in the Church of England, though his occupation of the benefice or incumbency had been only a few days. He thought it very unfair that those special facilities should be given to a certain class of freeholders; but he should not complain if similar facilities were given to the ordinary man, provided that he was qualified to vote. Then, in the case of leaseholds in counties and leasehold boroughs, there was great anomaly as to the respective times required for qualification. Again, a man possessing a freehold in a county might live in America if he liked and still retain his vote, but if his property was in a borough he would have to live within seven miles in order to do so. Then as to the ordinary electors, most of whom were householders, in many cases they were unable to get on the register under two years and five months. This state of things could not be defended, and he hoped the Government would be inclined to deal with the question generally, with the view of putting the Registration Laws in an intelligible and reasonable condition. ["Hear, hear!"] Speaking in a Debate on a Registration Bill introduced in March 1893, the first Lord of the Treasury spoke on the matter, and said he sympathised with the effort to reform the Registration Laws, particularly in relation to the two points of transfers from constituency to constituency and of the right of successive occupation, the right hon. Gentleman said:—

"The next two points connected with the reform part of this plan to which I wish to allude relate to transfers from constituency to constituency and to the right of successive occupation. Let me say at once that with regard to both of those I sympathise absolutely with the wishes of the Government. My objection is not to the object, but to the machinery by which the object is to be carried out."

The right hon. Gentleman had now an opportunity of carrying out his views on the subject and of providing machinery of his own, and if he would take advantage of it he would get rid of a state of things under which at the present moment a man might be kept off the register for two and a half years. Another anomaly in the present state of the law was that there was no succession from one borough to another, or from one county to another. That might perhaps, prove a somewhat complicated matter to remedy, but certainly there could be no difficulty as to succession in the case of a man moving from one constituency to another in the same county or borough. With regard to succession from the lodger point of view, great difficulty and hardship arose. Directly a lodger became a householder he lost his vote. If a young man who was a lodger married and became a householder he was disfranchised and kept off the register for two and a half years. That was not only an anomaly, but a great injustice and hardship. He hoped the Government would deal before long with the lodger franchise. At the present time the law with regard to it was in a most unsatisfactory state. There was nominally a £10 qualification, but it was time after time evaded. The declaration made by the lodger was regarded by the revising barristers as primâ facie evidence of qualification, and it had also been held to be primâ facie of value. In some cases the barristers had said: "If you have any grievance, lay the matter before the Treasury." That was not a satisfactory state of things, and he could see no reason why the lodger should be in a, better position than the occupier or freeholder who had to prove his claim. He ventured to think that the onus of proof should be put on the lodger, and not on those opposing his claim, to prove that he was not qualified. Then he thought it was very desirable that the powers of revising barristers should be increased, and that they should have power to inflict fines in cases in which it was proved that the case presented to them was of a fraudulent nature. At present they were powerless to check fraud. He now turned to the question of the dates for making claims and objections. At present claims and objections had to be made on the same day. That was very undesirable in the interests of a good register. In boroughs it might be easy to make objections on the day on which claims were sent in, but in the case of counties it was very different, and it was very desirable that claims should be sent in a few days earlier than the last day for making objections. Then, with regard to the register, there was now a register for Parliamentary elections, for County Councils, District Councils, Parish Councils—in fact, four or five divisions. It would be much better if, instead of having all those separate lists, there were one register only. Of course, it would be necessary to star those electors who were entitled to vote for all, but there would be no difficulty in that. It was done at the present time. He had already quoted one expression of opinion by the First Lord of the Treasury showing that when a Liberal Government was in office he had no objection to registration reform. He now had the opportunity of bringing in a Bill embodying machinery he could himself approve. He would now quote another expression of opinion by the right hon. Gentleman. Speaking on the Second Reading of the Registration Bill in 1893, he said:

"The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Storey) and I both appear to have approached this Bill, certainly with no desire to find fault with it, but to recognise, as I believe every man, in whatever part of the House he sits, recognise, that the existing law with regard to registration prevents certain classes of people, whos under a better law would be voters, from being voters."

It was quite clear from that and the previous quotation that the right hon. Gentleman had no objection to the principle of the Amendment. He (Mr. Strachey) approached this question and moved this Amendment in exactly the same spirit and with exactly the same object. He did not want to raise a party controversy on the matter. All he desired to do was to ask the Government to find time to introduce a Bill to carry out the views the First Lord of the Treasury had expressed, so that a larger number of electors who were now kept off the register by the unsatisfactory state of the law, should be no longer kept off. It was quite clear the right hon. Gentleman viewed the question as not one of party controversy, and if so, what difficulty was there in the way of his undertaking to legislate upon it? He ventured to express the hope, therefore, that the Government, even at this late hour, would recognise the necessity for reform, and would attempt to deal with the question in order that men who were now kept off the register should be put upon it.

, in seconding the Amendment, said that the Amendments hitherto brought before the House on the Queen's Speech had been very much of a local character. This Amendment was national in its character and bearings, and he believed, was the only one on the list which was indeed truly national, and so interested the whole nation. There were thousands of people to whom Reform Acts had been of no practical value, because, though the spirit of Reform had been granted the machinery for carrying out Reform was imperfect. The work had been undertaken, but there were not the tools for the purpose. Recent circumstances had brought to his mind the fact that popular feeling on this subject was strong and widespread. Even in Manchester, where it might be assumed people were well able to take care of themselves, they were obliged to employ costly agents to obtain for themselves the opportunity of voting. He would not pursue the various anomalies of the registration system, for Members must have knowledge and experience gained in the endeavour to comply with some 118 Acts of Parliament supposed to regulate their conduct; but he asked how many Members in the House could at once tell the nature of the qualification for the vote they were entitled to exercise? Very few, he thought, could do so. There was one particular qualification readily remembered, and that was the "property qualification," and it was interesting, in looking through the many curious anomalies, to find the property qualification occupying a very singular position. Though the owner might be away from home in Spitzbergen or Somaliland, studying an eclipse or hunting lions, no matter where he travelled the qualification still attached, and he could be placed in offices of trust and responsibility in the neighbourhood, the envy of those around. The simple possession of the forty shilling freehold gave the franchise, and nothing could deprive him of it. He would not carry the matter further, and spared the House the attempt to show the great need of a change. A long list of well-known names from either side of the House was the record of attempts made to reform the registration system. It should be as easy for a man to exercise his vote as it was difficult for him to escape the payment of his rates, and he hoped that a promise would be forthcoming from the Government that they would endeavour to do something on this subject. He believed it was the universal opinion of those who had fairly considered the matter that it would not be expedient to refer the subject to an ordinary Committee, but he suggested that a small expert Committee might consider the subject, and report to the House from time to time, and in that way endeavour to make clear to every man his qualifica- tion for a vote. The trouble, expense, and time, now so often necessary, had disgusted many working men, and on their account he pressed this matter on the attention of the Government.

acknowledged there were grave and great anomalies in our system of registration, but with the long list of measures to which they were already pledged it was impossible that the Government could be expected to give any promise on this subject for the present Session. The suggestion of the hon. Gentleman that consideration should be relegated to a small Committee was one the House would surely not entertain. Constitutional changes such as would be involved must be considered in the House, and Debates would probably be long and contentious. He would venture to say that an alteration of our system of registration would probably require a whole Session. When the Liberal Party were in power they never did more than bring in Rills on the subject of registration. Those Rills never became law, because Members who represented county divisions and Members who represented boroughs could not agree. Now the law should be changed. There were grave anomalies in our registration system, but the Rills introduced by the late Government were practically Reform Rills dealing with many things outside registration and with matters not germane to registration. There was, for instance, a proposal to so reduce the period of qualification that the door would have been opened to any amount of "jerrymandering" of constituencies. To some extent he agreed with the principle that a man who paid his rates should have a vote, but the Rill of the late Government did not introduce that rating qualification. The lodger franchise did not make a man pay his rates, and the tenement franchise only did so indirectly. It was an anomaly that when a man ceased to be a lodger and became a householder he did not at once get on the register, and there were anomalies in relation to the Service Franchise whereby in the constituency adjoining his the action of the Liberal agent had disqualified the votes of 300 or 400 employés in a large industrial establishment.

claimed for the Liberal Party that they had endeavoured to carry out registration reforms in the period between the years 1868 and 1874, when no less than five Bills on the subject were introduced, and would be law now but for the action taken in the other House. In 1878 a Bill was introduced by the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean, but, it was so mutilated in the other House as to be vitally impaired. The hon. Member opposite had said it would be impossible to tarry through in the present Session such a wide reform as registration. But if he had considered the matter in the proper light he would have realised that it could be dealt with quite simply. Their Registration Laws were a mass of absurdities and anomalies, but they could be very adequately dealt with by introducing a simple system of franchise. If they once did away with the different varieties of franchise which now existed they would have no difficulty in dealing with the Registration Law. The obvious solution was to adopt adult suffrage with a certain period of occupation solely fur the purpose of identification. By taking occupation as necessary for identification they would satisfy the requirements of local elections that every voter should have some interest in the locality where he voted. An immediate and very simple reform in registration law might be effected by striking out column four in division one of the Register. The fourth column might be of some use in the ownership part of the list, and possibly also in the service franchise, but in division one and three it was unnecessary and misleading. That was an immediate reform which he believed the hon. Gentleman would not find it impossible to promise on behalf of the Government, and if he could not give any further promise to the House he trusted he would at any rate go as far as that.

hoped the hon. Member for Somerset would not expect on an occasion like this that he should go into the question of the imperfections and anomalies of the Registration Laws. Everyone who had considered the question at all was quite ready to admit there were anomalies and imperfections, and a great deal could be said, on the question of the period of residence, about the lodger franchise, and about succession claims. All those questions were fair matters for consideration; yet, surely, it did not follow that because of these imperfections and anomalies the Government were to be censured for not bringing in a Bill at once in their second Session to deal with them. The hon. Member proposed to censure the Government for not bringing in such a Bill, but the hon. Member for Keighley had frankly declared that this would not be at all a small question, that, on the contrary, it would be most contentious, and he had advised that the whole law should be swept away and an entirely new Code produced. Whilst admitting these anomalies and imperfections existed, he would like to point out that the Session did not last for an indefinite time, and he thought the Government had acted wisely by, instead of throwing a large number of Bills on the Table, making a selection of those measures they intended to pass rather than including a number which every Member knew could not possibly be passed within the limits of a Session. ["Hear, hear!"] The question, as he had said, was full of contentious points; it was one which would occupy a great deal of time, and, after all, the Government must have the discretion as to what they should name in the Queen's Speech and press forward during the Session. ["Hear, hear!"]

observed that whether there might be Divisions or not on this subject he thought no one could fail to see the value of taking some opportunity of entering a protest against the present state of the Registration Law. He thought the working classes especially had a real grievance in this matter, and he knew the great waste of time which they incurred, the trouble they were put to, and the disgust with which they were filled by necessary attendances at the Courts, the adjournment of their cases, and the ultimate omission from the register of people who might have lived and had an interest in the district for a very long time, constituted a great political evil. It might be that the Government were not, able to deal with this matter at once—and he, for one, should hesitate to take part in what might technically be regarded as a vote of want of confidence—but he did urge upon them that they should take the first opportunity of remedying what was at present a most abusive system and most unjust to many classes of the people. What should be the principle of dealing with the matter? The franchise was a great right which belonged to anyone who sought to maintain his political position. It ought, therefore, to be an easy duty to get upon the register, and when once a man's name was upon it, it ought to be difficult to be removed. He ventured to say the reverse was the case under their existing system. The only remedy for the present anomalous condition of things was one franchise, and a reform of the registration was an easy corollary of that. Again, the want of adequate powers of amendment on the part of the revising barrister gave rise to technicalities and injustices often of a gross character. That power ought to be extended. A wide registration measure giving a short term of residence would, in his opinion, be a Conservative measure, because the more they widened the existing household franchise, the more facilities they gave for the admission to the register; and the more obstacles they placed in the way of removals from the register, the more they made a barrier against mere manhood suffrage, which was the demand of one political party in the State. He regretted nothing more than the waste of time to political parties which was involved in the work of registration. That work ought to be done for them automatically by some responsible officer, so that instead of their energies being devoted to the drudgery of registration they might be devoted to political teaching. He hoped the Government would realise what he believed to be the firm

believed the difficulties which had been pointed out would never be grasped by the House so long as they were treated as registration difficulties, and one reason why he could not vote for the Amendment of his hon. Friend was because he was convinced the hon. Member was wrong in believing it was possible to obtain the single register of which he had spoken until the country had made up its mind to have a simple franchise. The anomalies of the present system were enormous. He was convinced that it was not worth keeping up all the extraordinary divisions in the present franchise, which ought to be replaced by a single franchise which must not be narrower than the present. He hoped the country would sooner or later come to the conclusion that it was desirable to establish a simple franchise—either manhood or universal—but until it came to that view they would never be able to get rid of the existing anomalies. He agreed with, his hon. Friend next him (Mr. McKenna), as to the simplification of the franchise being the root of the whole question. The Amendment, however, was a registration Amendment, and not believing that that simplification was possible under the present franchise conditions, he found himself unable to vote with his hon. Friend the Member for Somerset.