House Of Commons
Monday, 28th March 1898.
MR. SPEAKER took the Chair at Three of the clock.
Private Bill Business
Great Western Railway (New Works) Bill
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Aberdeen Corporation (Tramways) Bill Hl
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Aberystwyth Gas Bill Hl
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Lanarkshire And Dumbartonshire Railway Bill Hl
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Norton And Halton Roads Bill Hl
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Belfast Corporation (Hospitals) Bill Hl
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
London United Tramways
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
London United Tramways
Petition for Bill; referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Whitwick And Coalville Gas Bill
Read the third time, and passed.
City And South London Railway Bill
As amended, considered; Amendments made; to be read the third time.
Norham Urban District Water Bill
As amended, considered; Amendments made; to be read the third time.
North Warwickshire Water Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
St David's Railway Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Great Central Railway Bill
Read a second time, and committed.
Metropolitan Common Scheme (Barnes) Provisional Order Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Metropolitan Common Scheme (East Sheen) Provisional Order Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No 1) Bill
To confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the Killiney and Ballybrach Township; Ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney General for Ireland and Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland; Presented accordingly, and read the first time; Referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 155.]
Great Western Railway (Dublin, Wicklow, And Wexford Railway)
Order [15th February] that the Great Western Railway (Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway) Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills read, and discharged:—Bill withdrawn.
Waterford, Dungarvan, And Lismore And Fermoy And Lismore Railways (Vesting)
Order [15th February] that the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore and Fermoy and Lismore Railways (Vesting) Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills read, and discharged:—Bill withdrawn.
Metropolitan Railway Bill
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee on the Metropolitan Railway Bill, 1896, be referred to the Committee on the Metropolitan Railway Bill.
Andoversford And Stratford-Upon-Avon Railway Bill
Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Hartlepool Gas And Water Bill
Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Special Juries Bill
Message from The Lords, That they have agreed to same (with Amendments).
Consolidated Fund (No 1) Bill
Message from The Lords, That they have agreed to same.
Army (Annual) Bill
Message from The Lords, That they have agreed to same.
Registration (Ireland) Bill
Message from The Lords, That they have agreed to same without Amendment.
Suffragan Bishops Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act to explain the Act as to Suffragan Bishops."
Edinburgh Merchant Company Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act to amend and enlarge the powers of the Edinburgh Merchant Company; to provide for the better administration of the said Company and the Widows' Fund, and George Grindlay's and William Watherston's Endowments; and for other purposes."
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Chipstead Valley Railway Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act for conferring further powers on the Chipstead Valley Railway Company; and for other purposes."
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Guy's Hospital Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act for conferring further powers on the President and Governors of Guy's Hospital."
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
London And North Western Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act for empowering the London and North Western Railway Company to provide and use steam vessels; and for other purposes."
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Agricultural Company Of Mauritius Bill Hl
Message from the Lords, That they have passed a Bill, intituled—
"An Act for amending the powers of the Agricultural Company of Mauritius, Limited; to subdivide their capital into preference and ordinary capital; and for other purposes."
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Petitions
Army Pensions
For weekly payment: From Colchester, Hastings, Exeter, and Oldham; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Contagious Diseases)
Against State Regulation: From Glasgow, Birmingham (2), Westbourne Park, and Holbeck; to lie upon the Table.
Food Adulteration
For Alteration of Law: From Cambridgeshire, Warwickshire, and Marcham; to lie upon the Table.
Local Authorities Officers' Superannuation Bill
In favour: From Croydon (2), and Mile End Old Town; to lie upon the Table.
Mines (Eight Hours) Bill
In favour: From Sandycroft, St. Helens, Buckhill, Clifton, Broughton Moor, Bullgill, Gillhead, Dearham, and Watergate; to lie upon the Table.
Private Bill Procedure (Scotland) Bill
Of the Faculty of Advocates, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) Bill And
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
In favour: From Bilston, Ryde, Preston, Haworth and Oakworth, Watford, Newcastle-on-Tyne, Nantwich, and Aberystwyth; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
In favour: From Leamington Spa, Barnsley, Warwick, Whitby, South Marston, and Salford; to lie upon the Table.
Returns And Reports
Education (Science And Art Schools)
Copy presented, of Directory for the year 1898, with Regulations for establishing and conducting Science and Art Schools and Classes [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Factory And Workshop Acts (Places Prohibited For Meals)
Copy presented, of Order of the Secretary of State, dated 23rd March, 1898, extending to certain classes of Factories and Workshops the provisions of Section 39 of The Factory and Workshop Act, 1878, which prohibits children, young persons and women from taking meals, or remaining during meal-times, in certain parts of the Factories or Workshops [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Factory And Workshop Acts (List Of Outworkers)
Copy presented, of Order of the Secretary of State, dated 23rd March, 1898, requiring occupiers of certain Factories, Workshops, and other places to keep lists of outworkers [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Cyprus
Copy presented, of Annual Reports for the years 1896–97 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Standing Committee On Law, Etc
Ordered, That the Standing Committee on Law, etc., have power to sit during the sitting of the House, To-morrow, and on every day until the conclusion of the consideration of the Benefices (No. 2) Bill.
Questions
Newfoundland Railway System
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Newfoundland Legislature has passed a Bill selling the railway system of the Colony to a contractor, handing over to him important coal areas and valuable lands, and committing the Colony for 30 years to come as regards its coastal mail service; whether the Bill contains in its Schedule, in paragraph 45, a provision binding the Government of Newfoundland to agree to procure the imposition of a duty upon coal imported into the Colony; whether, by paragraph 82, it is agreed that the contractor shall take over the telegraph lines belonging to the Government, and receive in future the earnings and profits of the lines, receiving in addition an annual subsidy up to 1904, and, after that, receiving the earnings and profits of the telegraphs until the expiration of a term of 50 years; whether, by several paragraphs of the Schedule, the Government undertake to enact legislation to give effect to the spirit of the contract, as for example in paragraph 102; and whether by such a paragraph the freedom of the Legislature of the Colony to accept or reject such legislation is compromised?
The Legislature of Newfoundland has passed a Bill confirming a contract made by the Colonial Government, and set out in a schedule to the Bill, which is to the effect stated in the four paragraphs of the hon. Member's Question. I have not yet received a copy of the contract, but a copy of the draft of it which has been furnished to me by the Governor contains paragraphs differently numbered, but substantially agreeing with the description in the Question. The Legislature having ratified the contract will, no doubt, be prepared to give effect to any promise of legislation which it contains.
British Goods In British Colonies
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is in negotiation with the Governments of Canada, of Australasia, and of South Africa for the better treatment of British goods in those Colonies of the Empire from the 1st of August next, when the hands of Colonial Ministers will be free from the prohibitory clauses of the denounced treaties of 1862 and 1865 with Belgium and Germany; and, in such case, if he has good hopes of the successful issue of such negotiations?
The hon. Member will see, on reference to the second Resolution passed by the Conference of Premiers in July last, that they undertook to confer with their colleagues on their return, with a view to seeing whether the trade relations between the Mother Country and the Colonies can be properly secured by a preference given by the Colonies to the products of the United Kingdom. I have not yet been informed of the result of the action therein promised.
Imprisonment Of A British Officer In Malta
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) if his attention has been called to the action taken by the Maltese local authorities in respect to Colonel J. L. Hewson, of the Army Pay Department, stationed at Malta; (2) is he aware that Colonel Hewson was instructed to attend as a witness at the Magistrate's Court at Valetta; that he was requested to sign a declaration of his evidence written in Italian; that he objected, on principle, to sign a document the purport of which he did not understand, but said he did not wish to show any disrespect to the Law; and that, in consequence, this British officer was awarded three days' detention and taken in charge by the superintendent of police; and, (3) as Italian is not the native language of the Maltese, but is as foreign a language as English is in Malta, whether he will take any steps to secure to English-speaking subjects in Malta the right, when called on to sign declarations of their evidence or other legal documents in Maltese Courts, to ask for true translations in English prior to being called on to sign them?
My attention has been called to the case of Colonel Hewson, who was committed by a Malta magistrate for three days' imprisonment for declining to sign a statement in Italian, which he did not understand, of his deposition given in English as a witness in the magistrate's court. The account of the case given in the second paragraph of the hon. Member's Question appears to be substantially correct, except that it should be added that the Italian version of the deposition was really translated into English to Colonel Hewson, and that it contained in a parenthesis, dictated by the magistrate, the name of a person which Colonel Hewson had not mentioned in giving his evidence, and that Colonel Hewson offered to sign the deposition under a protest to be written on the document. It appears from this case that in a British Colony a British officer may be imprisoned for declining respectfully to sign a document which he does not understand, and which is in a language which is neither his own nor that of the majority of the inhabitants of the Colony. I propose to communicate with the Governor with a view to the amendment of the law.
Will any steps be taken to secure redress for this officer?
No, Sir. I do not think it is a question of redress. There is no doubt that the law justified the action, and, in fact, almost compelled the detention. I should add that Colonel Hewson, though condemned to three days' imprisonment, was released by the Governor on learning the circumstances.
Wady Halfa Letter Charges
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, (1) why letters posted at Wady Halfa, fully prepaid in Egyptian stamps, have been charged double postage on delivery in London; (2) is he aware that the reason officially given in one case was that the Egyptian officials had not done their duty in defacing the stamps; and (3) whether he will endeavour to protect British recipients of letters from being punished for the delinquencies of foreign officials?
It is not the practice of the British Post Office to charge letters from Wady Halfa fully prepaid in Egyptian stamps. The Postmaster General cannot learn that any such reason for a charge has been given as that named in the second paragraph. In the case which is believed to be referred to, the reply given was that the letter had been charged because the Egyptian Post Office had treated the stamps upon it as not available for the prepayment of the postage. The post-mark of the despatching office was illegible, and it was surmised that the letter came from the Soudan, where ordinary Egyptian stamps are not available for paying postage; but, on the applicant stating that the letter was from Wady Halfa, the cover was at once sent to the Egyptian Post Office for the purpose of obtaining an explanation. No answer has yet been received. An explanation shall be sent to the noble Lord so soon as the reply of the Egyptian Post Office is received.
Benin Medal
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will explain the cause of the delay in distributing the Benin medal to those officers and men who are entitled to it; and if he can inform the House when the distribution is likely to take place?
A certain delay in the distribution of war medals is usually inevitable, owing to the dispersion of ships' companies and other causes. In the case of the Benin Expedition, all the lists were not received from the ships until October, when they had to be carefully examined. The orders to the Mint were given in December, but owing to difficulties in carrying out previous large demands, the Mint have been unable to supply any Benin medals until this month. It is now hoped that the distribution of these medals may be commenced about the middle of next month.
Calliope Dock, Auckland
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when he will be able to state the conclusions he has arrived at respecting the Calliope Dock at Auckland, New Zealand; and whether he is aware that the Colony has for some years contributed, and is still contributing, nearly £21,000 a year towards it?
I am not yet able to do so. The Question is being very carefully examined.
Army Contracts For Ireland
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will devise some scheme by which preference will be given to contractors tendering for Army contracts who undertake to provide homegrown supplies for the use of the Army in Ireland, both line and cavalry; and whether he will have special steps taken to encourage local contractors who undertake to supply home-grown beef, mutton, hay, oats, straw, etc., and give them special privileges, in order to encourage as far as possible the use of home-grown and home-made articles in his Department?
Preference is already given, at equal quality and price to home-produced meat and forage in Ireland; and at the Curragh only home-fed meat is supplied. Everything that is possible is done to encourage local purchases of meat and forage.
Have not many complaints been made by soldiers with regard to the innutritious quality of the foreign meat? Is it not of very inferior quality?
No complaints whatever have been received; indeed, I believe that the rations served out to the soldiers are pretty well approved of.
It is not so.
Trained Nursing For The Irish Sick Poor
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is aware of the want felt among the poorer classes in Ireland for a trained nurse in each dispensary district to supervise the nursing of the sick in their own homes; (2) whether this want has been recognised and pointed out by the medical faculty and by numerous boards of guardians; and (3) whether he can see his way to having such officers appointed and to paying their salaries out of the large saving that has been effected on the Judicial and Royal Irish Constabulary Votes, Ireland?
The answer to the first and second paragraphs is in the affirmative. A clause was introduced into the Poor Relief Bill of last year enabling boards of guardians to assist to subscribe to nursing institutions for the benefit of the sick poor in their districts. I hope some time to be able to introduce a Measure containing many of the provisions of the Bill of last year. The reply to the second part of the third paragraph is in the negative.
Imports Of French Milk
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that large quantities of French milk are imported into this country from Cherbourg, and that 36,000 gallons were so imported in the month of December last; whether any sanitary supervision or inspection is exercised over the dairies from which this milk comes; whether the milk is inspected in any way on arrival in this country; and whether any outbreak of disease has been traced to the consumption of this milk?
According to our own Customs returns we imported 3,348 cwts. of fresh milk and cream from France in December last, of the aggregate value of £1,179. In January the quantity fell to 1,867 cwts., of the value of £469, and last month it was 2,608 cwts., and the value £650. It cannot, therefore, be said that at present these imports have attained any serious dimensions. Any question as to their sanitary supervision or inspection, and as to their effect upon human health, falls within the province of the Local Government Board rather than my own, but I may say that I have communicated to my right hon. Friend the results of an examination of certain samples of the milk, which I arranged should be taken by the Customs officers, and I have been informed that he is in communication with the Foreign Office on the subject generally.
Case Of Widow M'cole
On behalf of the hon. Member for West Donegal I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) is he aware that on the 7th February the house of Widow Anne M'Cole, Keadue, Burtonport, county Donegal, was burned, by order of the Board of Guardians, While Mrs. M'Cole and her seven children were inmates of the Glenties workhouse hospital; that on the 9th February the whole family were discharged, although it was known to the Board that they had no house to go to; and that they had since been obliged to live in an outhouse which a charitable person permitted them to occupy; (2) is he also aware that the Guardians allege they cannot rebuild the premises unless compelled by an action at law, a proceeding which the poor family in question are utterly unable to have recourse to; and (3) whether, under these circumstances, he will direct that steps shall be taken by the Local Government Board to provide another dwelling for Mrs. M'Cole and her children, or otherwise compensate them for the destruction of their home by order of the local authorities?
I understand the facts are as stated with substantial accuracy in the first and second paragraphs. It would not, in my opinion, be proper to require this poor woman to embark in costly litigation, which the course suggested by the Guardians would involve, and an intimation has been conveyed to the Guardians that the Local Government Board are unable to concur in the views expressed by them. The Board consider that it is competent to the Guardians to take action in this case under the Labourers Acts, and have recommended them to adopt this course. The matter will again be considered by the Guardians at their next Meeting.
Skellig Michael Oratory (Ireland)
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Donegal I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the repairs promised to be effected on the Oratory on Skellig Michael, off the coast of Kerry, have been successfully carried out; whether the superintendent of ancient monuments, Ireland, has inspected these ruins lately; and, if not, whether, in the cause of antiquarian knowledge, he will shortly do so; and when, if the repairs have been effected, a report thereon from the Superintendent of Ancient Monuments will be laid before Parliament?
The repairs referred to have been successfully carried out, except that the resetting of the steps on the approach to the summit has not been completed, and a portion of the protecting wall on the south side of the church has not yet been raised to its proper level. These portions of the work have been delayed, owing to the difficulty of approaching the rock by boat in winter, but they will be resumed and completed at the earliest opportunity. The superintendent of national and ancient monuments has not inspected the ruins recently; but they were inspected last summer by one of the Board's surveyors, who is secretary to the Royal Society of Antiquaries, Ireland. In accordance with the usual practice, the substance of the superintendent's report upon this and other monuments will be given in an Appendix to the annual report of the Commissioners of Public Works, and it will deal with the work done, and the condition of the ruin.
Irish Committee Of National And Ancient Monuments
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Donegal I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Committee of National and Ancient Monuments in connection with the Office of Public Works, Ireland, is still in existence; and, if so, whether he will give the names of those serving on the Committee and by whom they have been appointed, also the date of the last monthly meeting of the Committee and when it is proposed that the Committee shall meet again?
The Committee is still in existence. Its members are: The Chairman of the Board of Works, or in his absence a Commissioner; the Inspector of National and Ancient Monuments, Lord Walter Fitzgerald, and Mr. J. R. Garstin, who are appointed by the Royal Irish Academy; Dr. P. Wright, who is appointed by the Royal Society of Antiquaries, Ireland. The last-mentioned Society had a second representative on the Committee until the end of last year, when he resigned, and his place has not yet been filled. The last meeting of the Committee took place on the 6th December last, and the next will be held on the 4th of next month.
Distress In Petigo, County Donegal
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Donegal I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been directed to the letters of the Bishop of Clogher and Canon M'Kenna, describing the great distress existing in the parish of Petigo, county Donegal; whether the distress has been aggravated by the issue of ejectment processes; and whether he will direct an inquiry into the state of things existing there?
My attention has been directed to the letter in question. As regards the alleged distress, it appears from the latest official returns that there are only 36 persons in receipt of outdoor relief in the entire Donegal Union, in which Petigo is situated, the population of the Union, according to the last Census, being 22,891. The average rate on the Union is less than 11d. in the £, and it seems to me, under the circumstances, that any isolated cases of distress can easily be provided for by the Guardians out of the resources of the rates. I have no information as to the number of ejectment notices issued in the district, but I have called for a Report on the subject as well as on the statements in the letter of Canon M'Kenna.
New Armoured Cruisers
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now make a statement as to the placing of the orders for the four armoured cruisers of the Cressy class, which he described to the House in July last in proposing the Additional Estimate of £500,000; and, in particular, can he give the names of the contractors and the contract date for the delivery of each ship at one of Her Majesty's dockyards?
Tenders from the following firms for the four armoured cruisers of the Cressy class were accepted, subject to certain conditions, on the 23rd inst.—namely, Fairfield Company, two, one to be delivered in 30 months, the other in 33 months; Vickers, Sons, and Maxim, one, in 33 months; Clydebank and Company, one, in 30 months.
Summoning Jurors For Cork Assizes
On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. MAURICE HEALY), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether his attention has been called to the complaint of the Lord Chief Baron at the Cork Assizes on the 21st instant, that he had desired an advertisement to be inserted in the newspapers that jurors would be called on juries that morning, but was told that there was no fund out of which the cost of the advertisement could be paid; (2) whether advertisements similar to that suggested had been habitually inserted at previous assizes; and (3) by whose instructions and for what reason, funds for the publication of such advertisements are now refused?
The statements in the first paragraph are substantially correct. Such notices have always been inserted by the sheriff, and the expenses thereof presented for by the grand jury in respect of county jurors, and I am not aware why the City Grand Jury have not similarly presented for such expenses. In the absence of a presentment the sheriff would apparently be required to defray the expenses out of his own pocket.
Corporal Punishment In Military Prisons
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to amend the rules relating to the offences for which corporal punishment can be administered in Military prisons at Home, Abroad, and in India, with a view to bring such rules into uniformity with those proposed to be put into force in the prisons and convict establishments of the United Kingdom?
The offences for which corporal punishment can be inflicted are identical in civil and military prisons, but in the latter it must be on the order of three visitors and with the consent of the general officer commanding the district. In the civil prisons the order of two visitors is sufficient. It is not proposed to change the military rule.
Seeing that the rules are about to be changed in regard to the civil prisons, will the Under Secretary for War propose a similar alteration in relation to the military prisons?
If the civil prison rules are changed the military prison rules will also be reconsidered.
1798 Centenary
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) if his attention has been called to the action of the Cork Corporation, who, in anticipation of the visit of Americans to celebrate the centenary of the Rebellion of 1798, changed the name of Nelson Place to that of Emmet Place; and (2) whether there will be any power under the Local Government Bill to revise such a decision and restore the name of a street given to perpetuate the memory of England's great naval hero?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question, may I inquire if it is not the fact that the Corporation have full power to alter the name of any locality in Cork if they so choose?
I am aware that the Cork Corporation have acted as stated in the first paragraph. Any power to alter the names of the streets at present possessed by the local authority is continued under the Local Government Bill.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the "'98 Movement" originated in Belfast?
Is there any objection to calling the street Ballykilbeg Place?
[No reply.]
Fair Rent Applications At Kilrush
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when the judgments in the fair rent applications held by a Sub-Commissioner at Kilrush on the 11th and 12th of last November will be given, and what is the reason of the delay; is he aware that fair rent applications in county Clare served so far back as January, 1897, have not yet been listed for hearing, although two sittings of Sub-Commissioners have taken place in the county since that date; and can he state the cause of the delay?
Judgments have been delivered by the Sub-Commission in all the cases heard at Kilrush to which reference is made in the Question. It is a fact that there are some cases for the county Clare still unheard, in which the originating notices were lodged so far back as January, 1897. A Sub-Commission was engaged in the disposal of cases from that county from 1st October, 1897, to 10th February, 1898, when the claims of other districts had, I am informed, to be considered. The further sitting of a Sub-Commission for county Clare will be arranged at as early a date as possible.
Barlinnie Prison
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether it is the case that the governor of Barlinnie Prison is and has been for some time incapacitated by sickness from attending to his prison duties; and whether there is any deputy governor to take his place; if not, whether, as prisons in England with a daily average of over 600 prisoners have such a deputy governor, he will see that one is appointed to Barlinnie?
I regret to say that the Governor of Barlinnie Prison, who is an excellent officer, has, in consequence of severe illness, received six months' sick leave, after which time his case will, under the regulations, have to be reconsidered. His duties are at present carried on by the head warder, in whose capacity the Prison Commissioners have perfect confidence.
Thessaly
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be, under the terms of the Convention connected with the issue of the new loan, the date for the completion of the evacuation of Thessaly by the Turkish troops?
According to the terms of the preliminaries of peace, signed in Constantinople on the 18th September, 1897, by the six mediating Powers, the evacuation of Thessaly must be completed within one month from the date when the Powers shall have recognised that arrangements in connection with an International control for Greek finance have been made in conformity with the principles laid down in the Treaty, and when, further, the date of publication of the loan for payment of the war indemnity has been fixed by the International Commission.
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the loan for 8,000,000 drachmæ, to be issued by Greece for the purpose of dealing with certain aspects of the distress in Thessaly after the evacuation of that province by Turkish troops, is included in the total of £6,800,000 guaranteed by Great Britain, Russia, and France, or whether it is a separate loan?
The total of £6,800,000 to be guaranteed by Great Britain, Russia, and France includes provision for all such expenditure as was considered absolutely necessary by the International Financial Commission, which was recently assembled in Athens, and reported on the financial situation. In the Report of this Commission the sum of 12,500,000 drachmæ is noted as an estimate of requirements for assistance to Thessalian and Cretan refugees, for repatriation of the Thessalians, and for help to agriculturists in Thessaly. I have no information concerning any separate loan to be issued by Greece for any purpose whatsoever.
Poaching In Irish Salmon Fisheries
On behalf of the hon. Member for West Waterford, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether, in connection with the salmon fisheries of Ireland, the Inspectors of Fisheries have held frequent local inquiries as to the extent to which poaching is carried on by licensed net fishermen and others during the weekly and annual close times; (2) whether such inquiries have shown that poaching by such fishermen is very generally engaged in, and that the fisheries have, in consequence, suffered considerably; and (3) whether, seeing that the licensed net fishermen practically control the election of all the elective members of the present Boards of Conservators, the Government will consider the advisability of transferring to the county councils it is proposed to establish the powers of the present boards of conservators in relation to the inland and sea fisheries of Ireland?
Inquiries have frequently been held by the Inspectors of Fisheries into the state of the fisheries, and at these inquiries evidence has sometimes been given as to the existence of poaching. But the Inspectors have no reason whatever to think that poaching is carried on by licensed fishermen, or that the fisheries have suffered considerably from the acts of licensed fishermen. On the contrary, the Inspectors believe that the illegal acts complained of have been practised by persons who have not taken out licences. As regards the third paragraph, it is not the intention of the Government to transfer to the county councils proposed to be created by the Local Government Bill the powers at present possessed by Boards of Conservators in relation to the sea and inland fisheries of Ireland.
Secrecy Of Telegrams
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state the full instructions which were lately issued by the Postmaster General to the postal staff in connection with the secrecy of telegrams; and whether any inquiry has been made as to the necessity of erecting one or more small compartments in post offices for the complete secrecy of telegrams?
The following notice was inserted in the Post Office circular of the 22nd instant—
In pursuance of the promise made to the hon. Member on the 4th instant, inquiry is being made whether any further precautions in regard to secrecy appear to be necessary; but the Postmaster General does not think it would be desirable to provide separate compartments for the work, as such an arrangement would not, in his opinion, be conducive to the convenience of the public or the efficient performance of the work."Counter clerks and others who take in telegrams from the public are enjoined to use every care to ensure privacy. When a telegram is handed back to the sender for the stamps to be affixed, it should either be folded or turned with its face downwards, if other persons are at the counter and are in a position to read the telegram."
I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the interests of the telegraph clerks and the general public, if he is aware that in the majority of cases where no separate compartment exists the general public write their telegrams on the counter or open desk, and there are no means of secrecy whatever?
Yes, Sir; but full inquiry will be made into this matter.
Lissarda Mails
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if the Postmaster General has taken into his consideration the possibility of utilising the 5 a.m. train from Cork to Macroom; and whether letter bags might be sent by that train to Killumney and Dooniskey to supply Lissarda?
The Post Office does use the 5 a.m. train from Cork to Macroom, and inquiry is being made as to utilising it for letters to Killumney and Dooniskey to supply Lissarda.
Cork Mails
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, (1) if postal bags are dispatched from Cork by Cork and Macroom Railway by the 2 p.m. train for all stations; if letters are now sent from Macroom to Ballincollig, viâ Cork, by the 10.30 a.m. Macroom to Cork train; and (2) if this difference in time between trains entails the loss of a post for letters going to England?
The answer to the first two questions is in the affirmative, but the difference in time does not affect the post to England.
Admission Of Boys To The Navy
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether boys are refused admission to the Navy in consequence of having one or two defective teeth, though in every other way they may be fit for that Service?
): One or two defective teeth do not of themselves constitute a bar to admission to the Navy. The condition of the teeth generally is always taken into consideration, and no boy is rejected except where a definite condition of defectiveness exists.
Irish County Infirmaries
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, seeing there is no reference to county infirmaries in the Local Government (Ireland) Bill, will he state his intentions in reference to the future position and administration of these useful institutions?
I answered this Question last Friday, when I said that if the Bill passes with reasonable speed the Government will bring forward a clause dealing with county infirmaries. I am not, however, in a position at this stage to state what form our proposals, if made, will take.
Delagoa Bay Arbitration
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the cause of the delay in obtaining an award in the Delagoa Bay Railway arbitration; will he refer to the previous answers to this Question on the subject to ascertain the replies given in former years by the assessors as a reason for the delay; whether this is the ninth year that the jurists have been in deliberation; and whether the remuneration of the jurists is fixed at £5,000 a year?
My previous answers to similar Questions have been to the effect that the long delays have been due in about equal parts to the successive applications of both parties concerned, but that, as the experts who had been sent out to conduct certain inquiries on the spot had returned from South Africa, there was good reason to believe that the award would not be much longer delayed. The latest information is that these experts have brought their labours to a close, and that their Report has been filed, and will be printed and distributed among the parties to the suit in a month or six weeks' time. The final award may be expected early next autumn. The arbitrators commenced their labours in 1891, but no annual sum was named for their remuneration.
Telegraph Rates In Australia
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that in several Australian cities telegrams are forwarded for 6d. for 10 words, with names and addresses free; and whether he will now give the same privileges to the inhabitants of London and chief towns of the Kingdom as is enjoyed by the Australian people in this respect, if he is unable to recommend that names and addresses be sent free in all telegrams in the United Kingdom?
The Postmaster General is aware that in some Australian cities there is a local rate for telegrams of 6d. for 10 words, with addresses free; but he is not prepared to propose special privileges for particular towns, or any departure from the principle laid down by Parliament that the charges are to be uniform throughout the United Kingdom.
Distress In The South And West Of Ireland
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of the Dublin Mansion House Committee for the relief of distress in the south and west of Ireland to the effect that the acute distress, which is not universal, but which exists in Ireland west of the ninth degree of longitude, unless generously relieved, is likely to become more acute during the spring and early summer months; and whether, in view of this condition of things affecting a large area, the Government will adopt additional means of relief beyond those already promised?
At the same time I will ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Dublin Mansion House Relief Committee has issued a statement asserting that the existing acute distress in certain localities in the west of Ireland is likely to become still more acute during the spring and summer months unless generously relieved; and whether he intends to take any further steps in the way of additional relief works or other adequate means to lighten the burthen of this affliction?
In answer to these Questions, my attention has been drawn to the statement of the Dublin Mansion House Committee, which is to the effect mentioned. The pressure for relief, especially in periods of distress, always increases during the spring and early summer months. The Government will be prepared to contribute to the cost of relieving any additional number of persons who may be ascertained to be in need of relief as the spring advances.
Austria And Crete
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Austrian troops are about to leave Crete at an early date and the greater part of the Austrian squadron to leave Cretan waters; and, if so, will the guarantee Powers, England, France, and Russia, take steps for the immediate settlement of the question of the Cretan Governorship by the appointment of Prince George of Greece?
Her Majesty's Government have received official notice of the intention of the Austro-Hungarian Government to withdraw their squadron and contingent of troops from Crete by the 15th of April, only leaving a sufficient naval force for the protection of their Consular authorities and nationals. This Measure is stated not to imply withdrawal from the European Concert, nor any departure from the policy followed from the first by Austria-Hungary in the Cretan Question. The Austrian Government will continue to co-operate diplomatically with the other Powers towards a final settlement. The occasion for independent action by the guaranteeing Powers has not therefore arisen.
Sailors And The Shamrock
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether wearing the shamrock on St. Patrick's Day is prohibited in the Navy; and, if not, under what conditions is it permitted?
There are no regulations concerning the wearing of the shamrock any more than wearing the rose, thistle, or leek. No deviation from established uniform is permitted without express authority.
May I ask whether a man will be fined or sent to the cells for wearing the rose or the thistle in the same way as one has been fined for wearing the shamrock?
No sailor will be fined unless he disobeys orders. Permission would be given in any of the four cases named.
Would an officer command a man to take the rose out of his coat on St. George's Day—
Order, order! The hon. Member is arguing the Question.
Lord Justice Fry's Commission
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the evidence taken before the Irish Commission, presided over by Mr. Justice Fry, will be printed and distributed?
I have made inquiries and am informed that the evidence is quite ready, and only awaiting revision of the digest. It will be presented and distributed, I should think, very shortly.
Royal College Of Science, Dublin
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, inasmuch as the existence of the Board of Visitors for the Science and Art Museum and Royal Botanic Gardens, Dublin, has proved of great advantage in making known to the Government the local opinion on questions affecting these institutions, he has any objection to some such local advisory board acting in association with the Council of the Royal College of Science and for the Metropolitan School of Art, Dublin?
No; these institutions are entirely supported by the State, and the Committee of Council do not think it would be desirable to have a Board of Visitors for either of them.
Map Of China
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will cause a map of the Empire of China to be placed in the tea room for the use of Members seeking information respecting that country?
Yes, Sir, I will have pleasure in complying with the request of the hon. Member.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have the map altered so as to suit the present state of China?
[No Reply.]
Agricultural Holdings Bill
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state when the Government propose to bring in their Bill relating to Agricultural Holdings in England and Wales?
I am afraid there is no immediate prospect of our being able to bring in the Bill to which the hon. Member refers.
Russian Volunteer Fleet
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the important international question of the defence of merchant steamers in time of war, he is aware that the steamers of the Russian Volunteer Fleet in the Far East are at present equipped for war, with ammunition and armament on board and with efficient gun's crews, partly made up of seamen of the Imperial Navy; and whether these vessels are at the present time commissioned war vessels of the State, or in what category they would stand should war break out?
I am not aware that the vessels of the Russian Volunteer Fleet are at present equipped for war with ammunition and armament on board, as suggested in newspaper reports. The vessels belong to a private company and sail under the mercantile flag of Russia, with a special device, but officers and men are lent from the Imperial Navy to the company to complete the crews. The position of these vessels in time of war would depend upon circumstances the exact nature of which I am not prepared to anticipate.
Yacht Ensigns
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty (1) whether he is aware that the Admiralty issues warrants to yachts belonging to several leading yacht clubs, according to them the privilege of flying what were at the time the red, white, and blue ensigns of Her Majesty's Fleet; and (2) whether this privilege is accorded for the reason that these yachts form in any sense part of the defence forces of the Realm; if not, can he state the reasons for this action of the Admiralty which is permitted by legislative enactment?
The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The Merchant Shipping Act of 1854 consolidated the powers exercised under previous Acts, together with powers exercised either by custom or of right by the Admiralty. There does not appear to be any record of the reasons which actuated Parliament in confirming the Admiralty in the exercise of this particular privilege, but it is not now granted for the reason that these yachts form in any sense part of the defence forces of the Realm.
Colonies And Commercial Treaties
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in reference to international negotiations following on the denunciation of the German and Belgian Treaties, the Governments of our self-governing colonies will be consulted, so that full consideration may be given to the interests of those colonies in respect of their growing and important trade with foreign countries?
The self-governing colonies have not been specially consulted, but they are aware that negotiations are in progress, and that any representation from them as to their special interests will receive attentive consideration at the hands of Her Majesty's Government. They will not be included in any Treaty without their consent.
Medical Superintendents Of Irish Lunatic Asylums
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he has received a memorial from the medical superintendents and medical officers of district lunatic asylums in Ireland as to their position under the Local Government Bill; and (2) whether the representations of these gentlemen will receive the consideration of the Government?
The reply to both paragraphs of this Question is in the affirmative, though in making this reply I must not be understood as giving any pledge that the representations of these memorialists will be acceded to.
Germany And Crete
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government received any notice or explanation regarding the withdrawal of Germany and Austria from Crete?
I have already answered the Question as regards Austria. The intention of the German Government under certain conditions to retire from Crete was communicated to Her Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin some time in advance.
Streatham Voluntary School
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that a site had been given on which to erect a new Voluntary school for 500 children in connection with the parish church of Streatham; that the money has been found, the plans prepared and approved by the Department, quantities taken out, and contract signed; whether he is aware that the London School Board has given notice to acquire the same site under compulsory powers, and propose to build a board school on it at the ratepayers' expense, the only reason given for this action being that there had been some short unavoidable delay in the completion of the arrangements for building the Voluntary school; and whether he can take any action in the matter?
The facts as stated in the Question are substantially correct. The Committee of Council are unable to interfere.
Papers On China
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any Papers relating to events in China are to be presented to Parliament this Session; and, if so, when; whether any communication has been addressed to or received from Her Majesty's Ambassador at Pekin by the Government rebating to demands or requests for territorial or other concessions by any European Powers; and, if so, by which Powers; and whether he can see his way to place copies of such communications in the hands of Members before the Easter Recess?
Papers are being prepared and will be laid as soon as possible. They will include the information received by Her Majesty's Government relative to the requests for concessions by European Powers. It will not, I am afraid, be possible to present them before the Easter Recess, the collection not being as yet complete, and reference having to be made in several cases to Her Majesty's representatives abroad.
Will the Papers include all negotiations with China since 1895?
No. I think the idea is that these Papers shall be confined to the negotiations which have been going on during the last five or six months.
Will the Under Secretary consider whether he could not, at some future time, give us the Papers since 1895, since which time we have had no information?
I cannot at the moment recall to my memory what Papers since 1895 may include, but I will consider the matter.
Will they include the negotiations with Japan also?
I do not know that these Questions are quite fair. I cannot at present recollect the negotiations with Japan to which the hon. Member refers.
I will give notice.
Plague Regulations In Bombay
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, under the regulations of the Plague Committee in Bombay, search parties of British soldiers were employed to visit native houses, and to enter the apartments even of Mahomedan and Hindoo ladies who are by custom secluded from the gaze of men; whether Lord Sandhurst, the Governor of Bombay, was repeatedly warned that this practice was creating much disaffection, which finally culminated in a terrible riot and a general strike; and has he received any explanation why the Governor only cancelled the orders complained of after the riot had taken place; whether the Plague Committee has since resigned; and whether the regulations in question were issued by the Governor of Bombay in pursuance of orders from home?
Up to the 5th of March a certain number of specially selected British private soldiers were employed to visit Hindoo houses if no objection was raised, but in no case did they visit Mahomedan houses; nor did any British soldier, whether officer or private, ever enter the room of a woman of the class referred to in the Question. The Governor of Bombay was never warned that the search operations were creating disaffection, though he was, of course, aware that all the measures taken to prevent the spread of the plague were unpopular among certain sections of the population. I have already stated that the order for the employment of British soldiers was cancelled on the 5th of March, four days before the riot began; certain other changes were, I believe under contemplation when the riot began, and were carried into effect after it had taken place. The Plague Committee has not resigned. The regulations in question were issued by the Plague Committee under instructions from the Bombay Government, and without previous reference to me, but I was aware of their general tendency, and have throughout supported the Governments of India and of Bombay in taking such necessary measures as circumstances may permit for the prevention and alleviation of the plague.
British Imports Into China
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what, according to the latest official Returns in his possession, was the annual value of the goods imported into China from the United Kingdom and the British Empire; and if the duty charged upon such imports was on the scale levied by France in Indo-China, or by Russia in Eastern Siberia, or practically non-existent?
According to the Return of the Chinese Customs Department, the imports into China from the United Kingdom and the rest of the British Empire amounted in 1896 to nearly £27,500,000 sterling, of which more than half, or £15,000,000, were from Hong Kong. Most articles pay Customs duties at the Chinese Treaty ports at rates nearly equivalent to 5 per cent. ad valorem. The Customs duties levied on British imports into French Indo-China are, with certain exceptions, those of the French Metropolitan tariff, which are usually several times as much as the Chinese duties; and the rates on British goods entering the Russian Empire through Eastern Siberia are equally high.
Clerks Of The Peace And Registers Of Local Government Electors
On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. MAURICE HEALY), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is proposed to make provision for giving Clerks of the Peace any extra remuneration for the additional duties imposed on them in the preparation of the register of Local Government electors by the Registration Bill now being passed into law?
This appears to be a matter for the Treasury to decide. Any representation submitted by the officials referred to, explaining the nature and extent of any additional duties that may be imposed upon them by the Registration Act, will, of course, be considered.
Horse Breeding
I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a Committee representing the Central Chamber of Agriculture, the Suffolk Horse Society, and the Clydesdale Horse Society, recommended in February, 1897, that Parliament should be asked to make an annual grant for providing premiums for stallions suitable for agricultural purposes, such grants to be entrusted to the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding for administration; and whether he will consider the desirability of proposing a grant for the encouragement of the breeding of agricultural horses?
My hon. Friend asked me a similar question last year, and I can only refer him to the answer I then gave. I cannot speak with any authority, but I am myself disposed to doubt whether premiums for cart stallions are necessary for the purpose suggested in the Question.
Public Bodies' Corrupt Practices Act
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the Report of a Committee of the Common Council of the City of London, from which it appears that Mr. Hart, a member of the Common Council, received two amounts of £25 each from Mr. Berger, a professor in the Guildhall School of Music, in respect of promoting the election of Mr. Cummings to the Principalship of the said School of Music, an office in the appointment of the Common Council; and that Mr. Cummings, after his appointment, recouped to Mr. Berger the sum of £50 so paid by him to Mr. Hart; and whether the Director of Public Prosecutions has investigated or will investigate the case with a view to determine whether he will apply to the Attorney General for his consent to commence a criminal prosecution, under Section 1 of the Public Bodies' Corrupt Practices Act, 1889, against all or any of the parties implicated in these transactions?
I have seen a newspaper report of the matters referred to, and will call the attention of the Attorney General, who is responsible for proceedings under the Act of 1889, to them.
Bombay Riots
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he has received by the last dispatches from the Bombay Government any particulars regarding the riots which recently took place in that city; and, if so, will he state the same for the information of the House?
No, Sir. I have not yet received from India any information concerning the Bombay riots, except by telegram. I have ascertained, however, that a dispatch may be expected shortly.
River Erne Floods
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that great destruction is done to crops along the River Erne, in West Cavan, by reason of the overflowing of the river; and whether, seeing that this is a partially congested district in which money could be judiciously expended to relieve distress, he can promise to give any extra facilities to the local drainage board for the carrying out of extra drainage works which would at once relieve distress and be of a reproductive and useful character?
The information before me does not point to the existence of wide-spread distress in this district, nor have I any reasons to believe that the resources of the poor law will be insufficient to deal with isolated cases of destitution that may occur. The question of undertaking the drainage works referred to, for the purpose of relieving immediate distress, does not, therefore, arise.
Land Purchase In The Bawnboy Union
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, can he state the number of purchase proceedings as to estates which at present are pending in the Cavan portion of the union of Bawnboy; and also in how many cases the title to estates has been found to be so defective that the proceedings had to be dismissed?
The records of the Land Commissioners do not specify the Poor Law Unions in which holdings are situate, and it would not be possible to give the information asked for in regard either to a particular union or portion thereof. If the hon. Member desires to have the information for the entire county, I will endeavour to obtain it.
Joseph Denniston's Case
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that Joseph Denniston, formerly of the 10th Foot, who was discharged as phthisical patient so far back as 1864, is in a state of great destitution at Longford; whether he is aware that the disease he suffers from is chronic rheumatism contracted whilst serving in South Africa; whether no pension has been granted to him since 1866; and, in view of all the facts, will a gratuity be now granted to him to aid him in his old age?
I can only repeat what I said on this matter on the 26th March, 1897. I have seen the medical discharge certificate of Joseph Denniston. It shows that he was discharged in 1865, after five years and 166 days' service, on account of chronic rheumatism and phthisical tendency not caused by service. He got the usual temporary pension, and he is not entitled to receive more under any warrant. His case has been considered no less than fifteen times, and the Secretary of State must decline to re-open it unless fresh facts are forthcoming.
Trumpeter Fanning's Case
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the mother of Trumpeter Fanning, 19th Hussars, who was killed whilst defending his officer at the battle of El Teb in 1884, is living in great destitution in Longford; that he was her only support and only son; that the Commissioners of the Royal Patriotic Fund, although appealed to, have done nothing; and can he have any gratuity bestowed on this poor woman?
I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer made to him on the 11th May last: The Secretary of State cannot interfere with the decision of the Commissioners of the Royal Patriotic Fund.
Longford Barracks
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War in whose custody the military barracks at Longford now is; and whether, seeing that a large sum of public money has been laid out in the building of this barracks, will the War Office, in the event of its not being again occupied, hand it over to the local authorities to be used for the improvement of the township?
The barracks at Longford are in charge of the military authorities in Ireland, and will probably be again soon required for Army purposes.
Grants-In-Aid To English Boroughs
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Local Government Board what is the total rate on the valuation to which the grants-in-aid to English boroughs amounted on the last financial year for which figures are available, (a) including and (b) not including the grants under the Local Government Act, 1888?
The grants-in-aid to English boroughs in the last financial year for which figures are available were equal to a rate in the £ of 7s. 2d. including the grants under the Local Government Act, 1888, and excluding those grants the average rate was 1s. 4d. in the £. These sums do not include grants under the Agricultural Rates Act, payable in 1897–8. If the sums paid under that Act to the boroughs in the year had been distributed equally on the basis of the total rateable value of the boroughs receiving the grants, the rate on the valuations in force would have been about 1d. in the £.
Imported Dairy Produce
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that large quantities of dairy produce are imported from countries where sanitary regulations may be said not to exist; and what precautions the Government are taking to protect consumers against peril to health from diseased foreign produce?
There is no doubt that dairy produce is imported from countries where there are not the same regulations in force as to dairies and cowsheds as in England. But I am not aware that large quantities of dairy produce are imported from countries where sanitary regulations do not exist. The precautions which are provided for the protection of consumers against peril to health from diseased foreign produce are the same as those in the case of home produce. Medical Officers of Health and Inspectors of Nuisances throughout the country are empowered to examine any animal, carcase, meat, flesh, milk, and a number of other articles, which are deposited for sale, and to seize any such articles which appear to be diseased or unsound or unwholesome or unfit for food, with a view to the same being dealt with by a Justice, and the Justice is empowered to order the same to be destroyed, or otherwise disposed of, so as to prevent its being used for food. A penalty not exceeding £20, or at the discretion of the Justice imprisonment for a term of not more than three months, may be imposed in such cases.
Has that ever taken place?
I must ask for notice of that Question.
Red Sea Lights
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made since last Session towards obtaining the four lights necessary to render safe the navigation of the southern portion of the Red Sea, and that proposed to be placed upon the eastern end of the Island of Socotra?
Her Majesty's Government are in communication with the maritime Powers interested in the navigation of the Red Sea, with the object of obtaining their views on the proposal of the Egyptian Government to establish lights in the Red Sea, but I understand that all the replies have not yet been received. The question of placing a light on the Island of Socotra has not been lost sight of, but Her Majesty's Government are of opinion that it would not be advisable to approach other Governments on this subject until some settlement has been arrived at with respect to the Red Sea lights.
Will the Government consider the urgency of seeing that this great waterway of 800 miles of the Red Sea, infested as it is with dangerous rocks and shoals, is properly lighted?
I have no doubt these lights are urgently required, and Her Majesty's Government are doing everything they can to bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion.
Cork Garrison
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if it is a fact that an abnormally high rate of invaliding, 45.52 per 1,000 of strength of the Cork garrison, has been reported and accepted; if this is the result, as alleged, of over route marching; and if attention has been given to the recommendation of the medical officer in charge that if they (the men) were allowed to take things more quietly the high rate of invaliding might be avoided?
The rate of invaliding among the garrison of Cork was 45.53 per 1,000 for the year 1896. No complaint was made by the medical officer of over route marching, but he expressed an opinion as to the effects of route marching in bringing out the weak points of the men, and he compared the system of route marching during the few winter months with the system of shorter marches once or twice a week all the year round. The point is being carefully watched, and the returns for 1897 will show the results of any of the medical officer's recommendations which have been adopted.
Ballincollig Barracks
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any report has been given by the Army medical authorities complaining of the insanitary conditions prevailing at Ballincollig Barracks; if attention will be paid to the ablution rooms stated to be, as reported, dark and damp; and if, after the expense incurred recently in providing efficient water supply to the barracks, no water is laid on to the infectious disease ward of the hospital?
No report has been received of insanitary conditions within Ballincollig Barracks. In the latest sanitary report the ablution rooms were described as in a satisfactory condition, and water was, at the time, being laid on to the infectious disease ward.
St George's Barracks
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War when the long-promised removal of St. George's Barracks will take place; and whether in the meantime any steps are being taken to lessen the risk from fire by the close proximity of the canteen to the Turner room of the National Gallery?
The partial evacuation of St. George's Barracks will take place as soon as the barracks at Millbank are ready, and a portion of the building will then be handed over to the Office of Works. It is unlikely that this can take place before the end of next year. The canteen is at some distance from the National Gallery. There will be a space of 15 feet between the National Gallery and the barracks when the alterations have taken place.
Russia And China
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government have received confirmation of the statement that the Chinese Government have accepted the Russian demands, which include the lease of Port Arthur as a fortified naval base, the lease of Talienwan as the fortified terminus of the Trans-Siberian' Railway, and the right to make a railway from Petuna to Port Arthur?
Her Majesty's Minister at Pekin telegraphs that the Russian agreement with China was signed yesterday. We are not yet aware of the actual terms.
Andersonstown (Ireland) Postal Service
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, is he aware that a strong feeling of dissatisfaction exists among the inhabitants of Andersonstown, a suburb of Belfast, in relation to the insufficient deliveries of letters; and will he direct that, in future, letters posted in the city in the afternoon will be delivered at Andersonstown by a special service at 8 p.m.?
The postal arrangements at Andersonstown were recently revised, and the Postmaster General has been made aware by subsequent representations that the revision sanctioned does not give entire satisfaction. The question of granting a late evening delivery is receiving attention, and the decision shall be communicated to the hon. Member.
New Indian Sedition Law
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will state whether the alteration made in Section 4 of the Indian Penal Code by the new Sedition Law will make a Native Indian subject of the Queen triable in India, and after his return to India, for anything supposed to be seditious which he may write in a British journal, or speak on a British platform, during his residence in this country?
The enactment referred to exactly follows the words of the Statute 32 and 33 Vic., cap. 98, sec. 1, which gives the authority to make such a law. The hon. Member is as competent as I am to form an opinion whether the authority extends to such a case as he has supposed. I need only add that I do not conceive it possible that such a case should arise.
Aden Hospital
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is now able to state what aid the Government of India are willing to give towards constituting and maintaining a nursing staff at the Aden Hospital, in respect of house accommodation and in respect of maintenance?
Arrangements have been made to build and furnish quarters for a nursing staff in the European General Hospital at Aden, the cost being partly met out of donations from the large shipping companies using the port, and from other subscribers. The Admiralty has agreed, subject to certain conditions, to contribute one-fifth of this expenditure, and also a fee for each patient admitted from the Royal Navy. The annual cost of maintenance will be defrayed as far as possible from fees and private contributions; if there be any deficit it will be made good from Aden Port Funds.
Changes In Indian Acts
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Papers relating to recent changes made in the Indian Penal Code, the Criminal Procedure Code, and the Post Office Act will contain the Debates which took place in the Legislative Council during the passage of those Bills.
All the proceedings of the Legislative Council are published and regularly supplied to the library of the House, where hon. Members can at any time refer to them. It does not appear to me, therefore, to be worth while to reduplicate them by laying them on the Table of the House.
Commercial Treaties With Germany And Belgium
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if treaties of commerce are under negotiation with Germany and Belgium to replace those denounced by Her Majesty's Government on 30th July, 1897, as prohibiting the preferential treatment of British goods by British Colonies; and if the terms of the proposed new treaties will be submitted to this House and to Colonial Governments before being finally decided upon, in order that no accident of language may as before bar the conclusion, as soon as the self-governing Colonies are so disposed, of a complete Customs union within the British Empire?
Yes, Sir. Negotiations with Germany and Belgium are now proceeding. It would be contrary to all practice to submit the terms of the new treaties in advance to Parliament. But the Governments of the self-governing Colonies will, of course, be consulted, through the Colonial Office, as to their wishes with regard to accession to the treaties.
Local Taxation Licences In Dublin
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what is the amount collected on foot of the local taxation licences scheduled in the Local Government (Ireland) Bill within the city of Dublin for each of the last three financial years, and also the amount collected on foot of the Dog Tax and Hackney Tax for the same period?
The first part of this Question was referred to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, who have kindly informed me that the amount of local taxation licences scheduled in the Bill and collected within the city of Dublin in each of the last three financial years was, for the year 1894–95, £25,619; for the year 1895–96, £25,849; and for the year 1896–97, £26,055. The revenue derived from the Hackney or Carriage Tax during each of these years was £2,816, £2,923, and £2,956, respectively; and the produce of the Dog Tax in the city was £449 in 1895, £485 in 1896, and £472 in 1897.
Sir Alexander Mackenzie And The Indian Sedition Law
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the reported speech of Sir Alexander Mackenzie, Lieutenant Governor of Bengal, made in the Viceroy's Council on the occasion of the passing of the new Sedition Law on 18th February, and particularly to the comparison of certain classes of the Indian people to the carrion kite and jay; and whether, in view of the present state of public opinion in India, in reference to the new Press Law, he will take note of language used under such circumstances by a responsible ruler of an Indian province?
The only mention of jays, kites, and eagles made by Sir Alexander Mackenzie was in a poetical quotation from Lord Macaulay. I am not prepared to lay down the rule that members of the Viceroy's Legislative Council are to be prevented for the future from quoting poetry in their speeches.
Irish Grants-In-Aid
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he can state the amount of each grant given hitherto and at present in aid of all local rates in Ireland; and (2) what portion, if any, of these grants will be withdrawn in future in consequence of the operation of the Local Government Bill?
In reply to the first paragraph of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Returns of Local Taxation in Ireland annually presented to Parliament. The only Exchequer grants-in-aid that will be withdrawn under the provisions of the Local Government Bill will be the grant in aid of the maintenance of pauper lunatics in asylums; the contribution of one-half of the salaries of medical officers in workhouses and dispensaries, and one-half of their salaries as sanitary officers; the whole of the salaries of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses in workhouses; and the payments of one-half of the cost of medicines and medical and surgical appliances. The respective amounts of these grants will be found in the annual Estimates, and the Appropriation Accounts show the actual expenditure under each head.
As some doubt seems to exist on the subject in Ireland, may I ask whether it is intended in withdraw the Probate Duty grant of 1888?
No, Sir.
Voluntary Schools Act
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the governing bodies constituted under the Voluntary Schools Act have power to compel schools, as a condition of their receiving aid under the Act, to accept visits from an organising master?
No, Sir.
Provisional Orders Before Parliament
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the whole number of Provisional Orders included in Confirmation Bills introduced by his Department into Parliament during each of the last five years; what number were opposed in either House of Parliament; and what number were rejected?
The numbers are as follows:—
| Year | Number of Provisional Orders included in Confirmation Bills. | Opposed. | Number rejected. | |
| In one House. | In Both Houses. | |||
| 1893 | 55 | 2 | 1 | — |
| 1894 | 56 | 3 | — | — |
| 1895 | 49 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
| 1896 | 70 | 2 | 2 | 1 |
| 1897 | 96 | 2 | 1 | — |
| Total | 326 | 11 | 5 | 2 |
Glusburn School Board Fees
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that payments have been requested from candidates for labour certificates within the area of the Glusburn School Board and in the neighbouring districts; that the Clerk to the Glusburn Board has acted as secretary for the Glusburn and surrounding school authorities in the matter of labour certificate examinations, and has received these payments, and that the Glusburn School Board recently expressed approval of the charges; and that these charges have not been enforced in the Glusburn School District at the last three examinations because the teacher, believing them to be illegal, has declined to collect them, and is in consequence now being pressed by the Clerk to make good the loss; and can he state whether the Board or their Clerk have any power to enforce such charges?
The charges referred to have been made, but the Board have recently been informed that they must be discontinued.
Khiaou Chau
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any British warships have visited Khiaou Chau since its occupation by Germany?
Yes, Sir.
Private Bill Procedure (Scotland) Bill
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate what Minority Report of the Joint Committee of 1888 is referred to in the Memorandum attached to the Private Bill Procedure (Scotland) Bill, and upon the lines of which that Bill is stated to be largely drawn?
The Minority Report referred to by the hon. Member was the Draft Report submitted to the Joint Committee for consideration by Lord Balfour of Burleigh. See page XIII. of Parliamentary Paper, No. 276, Session 1888.
Was not this draft Report merely formally read and not afterwards considered by the Committee; is there any evidence on the face of it that it had the approval of any other member of the Committee?
The hon. Member will find the answer to his Question in the Paper issued with it.
Volunteer Position Batteries For Scotland
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any steps have yet been taken to supply Volunteer position batteries in Scotland with lighter guns?
The Volunteer batteries are allocated to defensive positions, and it is not possible at present to make any change in the armament.
Indian Currency
On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government will give Irish Members an opportunity of recording their opinions before consent is given to increase the demand and value of gold for monetary purposes for any portion of the British Empire under the control of this House? At the same time I may also ask on behalf of the same hon. Member whether the Government will undertake to consult the views of the Members of this House before giving consent to any fresh departure in the experiment of trying to introduce a gold standard into India?
In reply to these Questions, they will be dealt with in the statement to be made on the part of the Government in to-morrow night's Debate.
Study Of Oriental Languages
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state the amount expended by the Government in the years 1895, 1896, and 1897 upon the encouragement of the study of Oriental languages; whether he is aware that Russia maintains at the cost of the central government a constant succession of pupils intended for the civil, naval, and military services, who receive regular instruction under competent masters in the living languages of the East; that the German Government has established a College of Oriental languages in Berlin; that Austria has established an Oriental College at Vienna; and that France has in Paris an Ecole pour les langues orientales vivantes; and whether, in view of the fact that the British Empire includes some 300,000,000 of Eastern subjects, the Government will consider the desirability of establishing in the metropolis a fully endowed and adequately equipped Oriental College?
I am informed that there will be considerable difficulty without detailed examination in stating the amount expended by the Government in any one year for the study of Oriental languages. Much is being spent in tuition at the Universities of Consular officers who are about to proceed to Morocco and the Levant, and the remainder on the tuition on the spot of Student interpreters who have already proceeded to China, Japan, and Siam. I believe that the facts are as stated by the hon. Gentleman in the second paragraph of the Question, but I have no reason to suppose that the present system does not satisfy the requirements of the public service.
I beg to give notice that in consequence of the right hon. Gentleman's answer I will raise this Question on the Estimates.
War-Ships In Private Yards
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will introduce a Bill giving power to Her Majesty's Government to exercise the option of purchase in the case of any war-ship constructed in the United Kingdom, whenever such ship is not delivered to the Government, company, or individual by whom it was originally ordered, and is offered to any other State, company, or individual?
Certainly, the Government have no reason to suppose, and I for my part do not believe, that any English firm would refuse to give the option of purchase to the Government if the necessity should arise.
Germany In China
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether he will undertake to borrow an official map from the German Government showing the territory claimed by Germany in China?
I will endeavour to ascertain whether such a map is obtainable.
Roman Catholic University For Ireland
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether any private negotiations with the Irish Roman Catholic Hierarchy, for the establishment of a State-endowed Roman Catholic University are being carried on; and if he can give to the House any information as to the present position of the question?
There is no change in the position since the matter was last before the House.
Then I may assume that the statements of the Irish Daily Independent are false?
Order, order!
Distress In The West Of Ireland
I wish to ask a question of the Chief Secretary of which I have given private notice, and in doing so I should explain that I have received a telegram from Manchester stating that no communication has been received from the Chief Secretary with reference to the distress among the school children in the West of Ireland. Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps to obtain information in the possession of the Manchester Relief Committee as to the alleged existence of semi-starvation among school children in the west of Ireland?
According to my recollection, I promised to obtain a copy of the Report of the Manchester Committee. It has only reached me this morning, and it will be examined without delay.
My telegram was from the Secretary of the Manchester Relief Committee.
Business Of The House
I wish to ask whether the First Lord of the Treasury can give the House any idea when the Second Reading of the Vaccination Bill will be taken?
When is it proposed to take the Second Reading of the Reserve Forces Bill?
If there is any chance of taking the Bill to which my hon. Friend refers to-night, I would be very sorry to lose it. But it is not one of the Bills which in some points are most pressing. With regard to the Vaccination Bill, for many reasons I am anxious to press that Bill forward. I cannot, however, yet say on what day it will be taken.
Will it be taken before Easter?
It will be placed second on the Orders on Thursday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Scotch Private Bill Procedure Bill will be taken?
I hope that will be the first Order on Thursday.
Will the financial Resolution in connection with the Irish Local Government Bill be taken before Easter?
There is no chance of the Resolution being taken before Easter.
Business Of The House
Morning Sittings
I indicated to the House on Friday last both the unfortunate necessity in which I felt myself placed in asking for further facilities for Government business, also the reasons which obliged me to make the request. It will be in the memory of the House that about a week ago I was asked when the Easter holidays would take place, and how long they would last. At that moment, with a vagueness which is, perhaps, characteristic of the place which I occupy, I gave a sketch of the business of the House, which I thought and hoped could easily be finished by Tuesday week, so that the House might have very nearly a fortnight's holiday. Since then the course of public business has been somewhat disappointing, and, as the House knows, several Bills which we had every ground for hoping and expecting would be advanced a stage, still remain on the Order Paper, and are no further advanced than when I last spoke. In these circumstances, I must ask the House to allow us so far to trench upon the privileges of private Members as to permit us to take morning sittings on the three Parliamentary Tuesdays which will probably elapse before we commence the discussion of the Irish Local Government Bill. Of course, as hon. Gentlemen are aware who have Motions in their charge for these Tuesdays, there will be time given for the discussion of the first Motion on the Paper, though in the case of one I am afraid the time will not be so long as I had at one time anticipated. But I am sure the course I am proposing is less inconvenient to the House than shortening the holiday, and I trust hon. Members, without prolonged discussion, and without a Division, will consent to be guided by me in this matter. It may be said, perhaps, that the Gentlemen who have second place on Tuesday will not have an opportunity of having their Resolutions discussed, but the fate of Gentlemen standing second on the Paper on Tuesday has not always been a happy one this Session, and I am not sure that they will be worse off if my Resolution is passed than they would be if things were left to take their natural course. I beg to move—
"That on Tuesdays, 29th March, 5th and 19th April, the House do meet at Two o'clock."
I do not rise for the purpose of offering any opposition to this Motion, but as the right hon. Gentleman is disposing of the time of the House for the present week, and practically of the time that will elapse before the Vacation, I desire to ask him if he will make arrangements such as will enable the Government, before the Recess, to make a statement to the House with reference to their policy in the Far East. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman at this moment to state exactly what arrangements he will probably be able to make—he will probably be able to do so to-morrow—but opportunity may be given on Friday, for instance, if the Foreign Office Vote were put down, or an arrangement made with reference to the adjournment of the House. I would willingly consult the convenience of the Government as to the time which should be allotted to that purpose, but I think it will be felt on both sides of the House that, before the Easter Recess, we should have a statement from the Government as to the position in which this country stands upon the matter. I do not propose to press upon the Government anything which will be inconvenient to the public service, or injurious to the public interests, but I think everybody must feel that, since the declaration made by the Government upon the first night of the Session—a declaration which seemed to be entirely satisfactory—when both here and in another place we were told that nothing had been done, or was in contemplation, that should in any way infringe the treaty rights of this country, certain circumstances have, whether in rumour or otherwise, created an impression that such a statement as that is not at present in force. At all events, we should know whether the circumstances have in any respect changed since Lord Salisbury stated that no foreign Power had contemplated at all interfering in any way with the treaty interests of this country. We ought to know whither that is still the situation, or whether there is any change of circumstances which should modify these declarations. For that purpose I hope the Government will make arrangements and let the House know to-morrow what these arrangements will be, in order that an exposition of the situation of this country, and its relation to other States, may be made clear to the House and to the country.
I beg to ask the Government to reconsider their decision to take a morning sitting to-morrow. The subject for discussion—the unsatisfactory condition of monetary affairs in India—has roused the greatest interest both in the City of London and in India. I think I am entitled to speak on this subject, but it is quite impossible for me and others who desire to be heard, and have a right to be heard on it, to find time to give expression to our views in the short space of an evening sitting.
I feel it my duty to protest against the deprivation private Members are suffering in the time of the House being taken in this way. It is quite impossible in the short time given us to discuss the subject referred to by the hon. Member for St. Albans, and I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury that this is not ordinary private Member's business, but is really Government business. I speak in this matter, not from the bi-metallic point of view, from which perhaps some Members of the House may think I am too apt to speak, but from the point of view of my constituents who have sent me here. Many of them are not connected with that movement, but they are deeply interested in the trade with India, and they urge me to do all I possibly can to obtain a full Debate on this subject and the desirability of a full inquiry before anything is done.
I think there would be a great deal in the appeal of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken if it were not for the announcement made two or three days ago by the Secretary of State for India. This question, which my hon. Friend proposes to discuss to-morrow, is one of the greatest importance, but we know that there is a dispatch on the subject from the Government of India on its way home, which, as I understand, the right hon. Gentleman has promised shall be published, so that any schemes whatever that the Government may propose should be fully considered before action is actually taken. Therefore I would submit to the hon. Member that the present is not so suitable a time for the discussion of this question as a later day, and I hope that if the right hon. Gentleman does not propose to give way with regard to to-morrow he will promise some day for the discussion when we can know the views of the Government and when there can be a full discussion of this question.
Sir, serious complaint has been made that Tuesday, the 19th of April, is proposed to be taken, so far as a morning sitting is concerned, by Her Majesty's Government. It is quite obvious that at this stage of the Session the Government cannot have any very clear views as to what the business is to be on the 19th of April. Only quite recently we had an illustration of how the well-considered views of the Government may be upset by the distinguished kindness of the Opposition. I refer to the Debate on the Irish Local Government Bill. On that occasion the First Lord of the Treasury informed the House that he anticipated that at least three days, or possibly three days, would be required, but as a matter of fact only one day was required for the Second Reading. At this period of the Session, to have a morning sitting on Tuesday, the 19th of April, is a very severe encroachment upon our rights. I have got a second place in the ballot for that day. I have put down a Motion dealing with the very important question of Local Taxation in this country, which would give an opportunity to hon. Members opposite to express their views, as they have not yet done so, as to how they propose to transfer the cost of education and the relief of the poor from the rates to the National Exchequer. This is the single opportunity which is given to hon. Members opposite, and which they are at all likely to have, of expounding their electoral programme, which was the programme, even of the First Lord of the Treasury himself, on these matters. It is a most unfortunate fact that once before, when I was fortunate enough to succeed in the ballot in getting a place, and put down a Motion to discuss the question of Local Taxation, on that occasion also, as on the present occasion, the First Lord of the Treasury came down and assured the House that it was essential for the purposes of the business of this House that that particular Tuesday should be taken by the Government. Surely, Mr. Speaker, in regard to three weeks in advance they must be in a position of absolute uncertainty. Even tonight they do not know how much Government business will be got through, and it is a little too premature to take away from us the 19th of April by means of a morning sitting.
I desire to support those hon. Members who have asked for an opportunity of discussing the Motion on bi-metallism, but do so for a very different reason from that which they have advanced. I desire that the Government should really have an opportunity of expressing their opinion as a Government with regard to this great economic fallacy which has misled so many eminent Members of the Government. I think, Sir, the time has arrived to satisfy the common sense of the House, and I am sorry that Members of the Government should be deprived of an opportunity of giving an explanation of their views.
I should like to point out that the Resolution to be brought forward to-morrow by my hon. Friend has nothing whatever to do with bi-metallism, and that it is essentially dissociated from the "economic fallacy" to which the hon. Gentleman opposite has alluded, for otherwise I should not have proposed to second it to-morrow. But I must join in the expression of regret, not only of Members on this side of the House, that the Government have found it necessary or convenient to take to-morrow away from us for a full discussion of this very important question. I suppose the Government will promise to make and keep a House in the evening for the hon. Member and his proposed Motion. I propose to second it if I can get a hearing, and perhaps we shall be followed by a Minister, and that will probably exhaust the whole time at the disposal of the House. I should be sorry that other hon. Members should be deprived of an opportunity of speaking on the subject, and I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury should cut short the discussion in a manner which I should have thought would be very unsatisfactory to himself and other Members of the Government.
Mr. Speaker, my hon. Friend who has just sat down has intimated that the whole time of three hours to be allotted on Tuesday next for the discussion of this question will be divided into three equal portions.
No, no! I will promise not to take up more than 20 minutes.
I understood from my hon. Friend that he would take up one of the three hours, and if that were the case I am afraid the task he has thrown upon the Government and the House is perhaps a more difficult one than he supposes. I can assure him and my two hon. Friends who have spoken in the same sense that I share their regret that the discussion on Tuesday is necessarily to be a relatively brief one. I quite agree with them that the question is one of the greatest importance, and that the House might with great advantage spend more than three hours in its discussion; but when my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester implies that the result of our taking Tuesday morning will be that some decision will be taken without that matter being thoroughly investigated, I think he cannot have had in his mind the answer which my noble Friend the Secretary of State for India gave to a question which was put to him a few days ago. Sir, I do not wish to anticipate the three speeches which are to be made to-morrow, but I may remind my hon. Friend that the Government are pledged to an inquiry into the whole matter, and we shall be the last people to suggest that any great change in so vital a question as that of the Indian currency should be undertaken without due and full explanation. Sir, passing from that point to the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Opposition, who has stated and expressed a very natural and proper desire, if I may venture to say so, on his own behalf and on behalf of his friends, that there should be some statement by the Government as to their recent policy in the Far East, and some opportunity given for discussing it. Sir, it is impossible that the whole subject can be adequately surveyed before we separate for the Easter Recess, because it will not be possible before that time to put into the hands of Members the Papers necessary for the discussion. But I recognise not only that it is desirable, but that it is absolutely necessary, that something should be said before we separate, and the only question is when would be the most convenient time for making that statement, and, if it is thought necessary that a preliminary discussion should be taken, what time should be fixed for that purpose. Sir, negotiations are at this moment proceeding, and I cannot tell the House when we shall be in a position to make such a statement. Of course, the later that statement can be made the more chance we shall have of speaking freely, and of giving the House full information on the subject; and it may be desirable to defer the matter to so late as Tuesday, to-morrow week. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will permit me to defer giving any final reply to his question to a later date. We have every reason on our own part to say what we have done, and to defend what we have done, if it is attacked, but our hands for the moment are tied, and it would not be possible within the next few days to give to the right hon. Gentleman and the House the opportunity which they naturally and very properly desire.
May I be allowed to say that I entirely accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement? We have no desire in any way to press the matter inopportunely, and I will leave it on the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman. We desire much more to have a statement from the Government of the position of the country than to raise any particular controversy on the subject. Of course we should reserve to ourselves the right of making such observations as we may think expedient on the matter, but it is not for the purpose of raising controversy so much as obtaining from the Government a clear statement of the situation of the country that I have put my question to the right hon. Gentleman.
The First Lord of the Treasury said something about undertaking to keep a House. Does he refer to all the Evening Sittings?
No, I am afraid I cannot give an undertaking of that kind.
Does he refer to to-morrow?
I think the hon. Member may take it that a House will be kept.
AYES.
| ||
| Aird, John | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leo. H. | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Arnold, Alfred | Cox, Robert | Heath, James |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Crilly, Daniel | Helder, Augustus |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter |
| Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth. (Down) |
| Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy | Cruddas, William Donaldson | Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc S. W.) | Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampst'd) |
| Baillie, Jas. E. B. (Inverness) | Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) |
| Baird, John Geo. Alexander | Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh | Howard, Joseph |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Howell, William Tudor |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Daly, James | Hozier, Hon. Jas. Hy. Cecil |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Grld W. (Leeds) | Dickson-Poynder, Sir Jno. P. | Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. J. B. (Clackm.) | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. | Doxford, William Theodore | Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l) | Drage, Geoffrey | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Drucker, A. | Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Kemp, George |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart | Kenrick, William |
| Bethell, Commander | Edwards, Gen. Sir Jas. Bevan | Kimber, Henry |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Ellis, John Edw. (Notts.) | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Bill, Charles | Evershed, Sydney | Kitson, Sir James |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fardell, Sir T. George | Knowles, Lees |
| Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Knox, Edmund Francis Vesey |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.) | Lafone, Alfred |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Finch, George H. | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Mdsx.) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lawrence, Sir Ed. (Cornwall) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'l) |
| Brookfield, A. Montagu | Fisher, William Hayes | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) |
| Brown, Alexander H. | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Ed. H. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Flannery, Fortescue | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Bucknill, Thomas Townsend | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Legh, Hon. Thos. W. (Lanc.) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Flower, Ernest | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Folkestone, Viscount | Leighton, Stanley |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Forwood, Rt. Hn. Sir Arth. B. | Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Fry, Lewis | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine- |
| Carlile, William Walter | Garfit, William | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) |
| Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- | Gedge, Sydney | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Livp'l) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. J. | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Lorne, Marquess of |
| Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir Jno. Eldon | Lucas-Shadwell, William |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.) | Goschen, Rt. Hn G. J. (S. G'rg's) | Macaleese, Daniel |
| Charrington, Spencer | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Graham, Henry Robert | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverp'l) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Greville, Captain | M'Ewan, William |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Grey, Sir Edw. (Berwick) | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Gull, Sir Cameron | Marks, Henry Hananel |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Hbt. E. |
| Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord Geo. | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hanson, Sir Reginald | Monk, Charles James |
Motion made, and Question put—
"That on Tuesdays, March 29th, April 5th and 19th, the House do meet at Two of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
The House divided:—Ayes 248; Noes 78.
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Reid, Sir Robert T. | Talbot, Rt. Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) |
| More, Robert Jasper | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Thorburn, Walter |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Rentoul, James Alexander | Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray |
| Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd) | Richardson, J. (Durham) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Mowbray, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Rickett, J. Compton | Usborne, Thomas |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grhm (Bute) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wayman, Thomas |
| Myers, William Henry | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham) | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Rutherford, John | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Wharton, Rt. Hn. Jno. Lloyd |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles | Whiteley, Geo. (Stockport) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Saunderson, Col. Edw. Jas. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) |
| Pease, Arthur (Darlington) | Seely, Charles Hilton | Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Pender, James | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Penn, John | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wodehouse, Edm. R. (Bath) |
| Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin) | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Pryce-Jones, Edward | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Purvis, Robert | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Rankin, James | Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth) | |
| Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Redmond, Jno. E. (Waterf'rd) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Sir William Walrond and |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Mr. Anstruther. |
NOES.
| ||
| Allan, Wm. (Gateshead) | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale- | Perks, Robert William |
| Allen, Wm. (Newc.-under-L.) | Holburn, J. G. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Ascroft, Robert | Holden, Sir Angus | Pirie, Captain Duncan |
| Baker, Sir John | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Roberts, Jno. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Scott, C. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Billson, Alfred | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Birrell, Augustine | Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn Sir U. | Spicer, Albert |
| Burt, Thomas | Lambert, George | Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. |
| Caldwell, James | Leng, Sir John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Logan, John William | Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) | Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) | Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh) |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Wallace, Robert (Perth) |
| Crombie, John William | Maclean, James Mackenzie | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| Curran, Thos. (Sligo, S.) | M'Ghee, Richard | Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Maddison, Fred. | Wills, Sir William Henry |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Maden, John Henry | Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Farrell, James P. (Cayan, W.) | Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Yorks.) | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlsbr'gh) | ||
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Morton, Ed. J. C. (Devonp'rt) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. |
| Gold, Charles | Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.) | Warner. |
India Office (Store Department)
obtained leave to bring in a Bill to empower the Secretary of State in Council to purchase lands in connection with the Store Department of the India Office; Ordered to be brought in by the Secretary Lord George Hamilton and Mr. Hanbury; Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, at Two of the clock, and to be printed. [Bill 156.]
Greek Loan Bill
Read a first time.
On Order for Second Reading.
This Bill was the occasion for a statement by the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the other night, of which I think we ought to have an explanation, and I am sorry not to see him in his place, but perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will answer for him. [Mr. CURZON here entered the House.] I shall have much pleasure in informing my right hon. Friend of the point on which I wish to have an explanation from him. The statement the other night that he made was, I venture to describe, one of the most remarkable statements that have ever been made in this House, even by himself. It was a statement which was of infinitely greater importance than the words of the statement would necessarily seem to imply, because it shows, Sir, such an astounding want of sense of proportion in our foreign relations that the House cannot but expect the most deplorable consequences to result if these are indeed the views of Her Majesty's Government. I am going now to inform my right hon. Friend, as he is so eager for information, as to what his statement was. The statement that he made was that the evacuation of Thessaly was the paramount European question at the present moment.
I will anticipate what the hon. Member is going to say by reminding him of the terms I actually did use. I have referred to the papers of next day in order to be quite certain, and I find that what I did say was that the evacuation of Thessaly was for the moment a paramount question of European importance.
I am perfectly willing to accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement.
But that is a very important limitation, "for the moment."
It does not make the least difference. We have the definition now. The right hon. Gentleman who represents Her Majesty's Government in this House, and who is the organ of the Foreign Office, has told the House that, in his opinion, at the present moment, the question of the evacuation of Thessaly is of paramount European importance. That is a statement which I venture to describe as one which is absolutely unparalleled in this House. At a moment when the greatest British interests are at stake in the Far East—[Mr. CURZON: Europe!] I think the right hon. Gentleman used a very inaccurate phrase if he meant to say that the question related only to matters within Europe itself. The words of the right hon. Gentleman were, "a question of paramount European importance." He has just given us the words. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman did not mean to say what he did say, why the question falls. Did he mean by a question of paramount European importance a question of importance in Europe alone? If he meant that, of course he did not express himself with his usual clearness and accuracy, because no one can deny that the state of affairs in the Far East and in West Africa is of the very gravest European importance—of the very greatest possible importance to the Powers of Europe. If he meant to limit it in the way he now limits it, I shall not pursue my remarks upon that point, and I am very glad indeed to find that he did not intend to make a statement which would have convicted himself and the Government of an absolute want of sense of proportion in regard to foreign affairs. As a matter of fact the question of the evacuation of Thessaly is of the most infinitesimal importance. We shall be glad to see Thessaly evacuated by the Turkish Army, who have behaved themselves remarkably well. The Turkish Army will be glad to get out of Thessaly; but to describe this question as a question of paramount European importance is, in my opinion, a total misuse of the English language. It matters little to any country in Europe whether Thessaly is, or is not, occupied by the Turkish troops. It is not even a humanitarian question of the very smallest extent, because the Turks have behaved so well in Thessaly that the evacuation will matter very little to that country. But what is of importance to this country is the question whether Her Majesty's Government really appreciate the importance of the issues that are involved in their present policy? That is of importance. Sir, at the present moment force rules the world. At the present moment this country is greatly deficient in military power. What we should like to know is this: whether Her Majesty's Government realises the importance to this country of the support of the Ottoman Army? That is a question of the most vital importance compared to which the evacuation or non-evacuation of Thessaly sinks into absolute and utter insignificance. This policy which has been pursued by Her Majesty's Government with regard to Greece and Thessaly, this co-operation with France and Russia, of which the Under Secretary of State is so proud, and of which the Leader of the Opposition is so proud, may ultimately prove to be the cause why we are so helpless in the Far East, and why we appear to be helpless in Africa. It is no fantastical deduction to draw from their past policy to ask the Government whether they have given up that policy of false sentiment with regard to Turkey, which has been the curse of this country for the last five years, and which is mainly responsible for our helplessness in foreign affairs. By that policy of sham sentiment, which was begun in 1893 by the late Government, with regard to Turkey and with regard to all the Near Eastern questions; by that policy of sham sentiment and pseudo-humanitarianism begun in 1893, and carried on more or less ever since, not only have we lost the support of Turkey in European questions, but we have also alienated the German monarchies. We find ourselves in this utterly false position, that we have alienated all our natural allies, that there is no Power in Europe upon whom we can depend, and that we have been trying to make impossible and impracticable alliances with our natural rivals—Russia and France. Why, there never was so preposterous a scheme as the scheme applied to Turkey, originated in 1893 by hon. Gentlemen now sitting on the other side of the House, and carried on on this side of the House in 1895, having for its intention the endeavour to secure the co-operation of Russia and France. I have said this before in this House, and I daresay it is not altogether pleasant to some right hon. Gentlemen to hear it. The reason, I repeat it, is this: that until the Government realises that to this policy of sham sentiment and false humanitarianism is due all their feebleness abroad there is very little hope of improvement in their strength in their conduct of the foreign affairs of this country. Let me bring this home to hon. Members by a reference to this loan. Why, the very necessity for this loan is due to that policy of sham sentiment. Will right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen on the other side of this House, who began this policy of a Franco-Russian alliance against Turkey, reflect upon its results? This loan is one of its results, which is, perhaps, the least objectionable. Another of its results is the pandemonium which has existed, and which now exists, in Crete, and the horrible suffering that has been inflicted upon the Mussulman population of Crete and to a less degree upon the Christian population of Crete. Another result was the war between Greece and Turkey, for which this loan is designed to pay. But for this miserable policy of sham sentiment, which was initiated in 1893 and continued in 1895, none of these things would have happened. There is not a statesman in Europe that does not attribute the responsibility for the state of Crete, for the Greco-Turkish war, to the policy of weakness and false sentiment pursued by Her Majesty's Government. It has been said in public by at least two of the leading statesmen in Europe—publicly said in the Austrian and German Parliaments—that the weakness of Her Majesty's Government, in consequence of the influence of the atrocity-mongers, has led to the miserable state of Crete, and practically also to the Greco-Turkish war. This loan is the result of that policy. No doubt hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they adopted that policy of coercion of Turkey in 1893, which was pursued right down to 1896, thought they were acting for the benefit of their Christian protégés. They did not enter upon these campaigns of atrocity-mongering from sheer malignancy—it was the result of ignorance and not malignancy. One or two hon. Gentleman opposite seem rather amused, but do they seriously think that any one of their protégés—Armenians, Greeks, or Cretans—have benefited by that policy of sham sentiment. Will one of them get up and tell this House that there has been a shadow of benefit to any one of his protégés, for whom hon. Gentlemen opposite were going to do so much? What is the state of Crete? Crete might have been saved from all this miserable bloodshed and starvation and ruin from which she has suffered, and still is suffering, if only the proposal of the Austrian Government in August, 1896, for a cordon round Crete had been adopted. That was the critical moment, and that proposal was refused by Her Majesty's Government, notwithstanding all the other Great Powers had cordially accepted it. There was another proposal made with regard to the Greco-Turkish war, agreed to by the whole of Europe, to blockade Vola and the Piræus. It was stated the other day by some Members of this House that no one desired that blockade more than the unfortunate King and Government of Greece. No one desired more to be saved from the consequences of the follies of their Ministers, and of the rash excitement of the Grecian population, than the King of Greece himself and his then Government. Her Majesty's Government had the whole thing in the hollow of their hands. It simply required the assent of what has been called the "Areopagus" of Europe. The "Areopagus" of Europe outside of the British Government did agree to that blockade, but we refused. But for that most unfortunate refusal there would have been no Greco-Turkish war, and no necessity, consequently, for this loan. This loan is the direct outcome of the atrocity-mongering and the weakness of Her Majesty's Government. I do not repeat this because I wish in any way to arouse any feeling against Her Majesty's Government—very far from it. This is a question infinitely beyond and above the effect or, the non-effect that it may have upon the Government. We have had during the past 22 years two examples of the policy of atrocity-mongering and sham sentiment. This is the second one. The first was the terrible Russian crusade against Turkey in 1877, which led to most horrible suffering and brutality, and resulted in the loss of over a million human lives, the lives of innocent non-combatants. These are the fruits of the policy adopted by the hon. Gentlemen opposite—a policy which benefits no one, and even injures their protégés, which runs the risk of European war, leads to weakness in our foreign policy, and ends in massacres, ruin, and Greek loans. No more need be said upon this subject, on which I have made bold to point the moral. I sincerely hope that when we learn the full details of the deplorable position of affairs into which our material interests are allowed to drift in the Far East and the Northern Pacific, we shall have no reason to believe that great and material British interest there have been sacrificed in order to secure a fantastical and worthless combination with France and Russia in the Near East.
I should like to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to make this loan a trust loan, and whether it will be available for the purposes of investment by trustees by permitting it to be inscribed at the Bank of England. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give an answer to that question now perhaps he will give one at an early date.
I should have thought the Bill before the House was sufficient evidence that it is absolutely necessary that Thessaly should be evacuated, and, if necessary, the Sultan should be coerced into evacuating it. That, at all events, is my opinion. It is not a question of false humanitarianism, and I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman should make use of such an expression with regard to a large number of the hon. Members of this House. Now, I rise to ask two questions of my right hon. Friend. I notice the schedule of the Bill contains "the articles of the Convention." I suppose those articles of convention have not been entered into; at any rate, there is a blank in the schedule of the Bill itself. The other question is that in line 15 of the articles relating to the loan it is stated that the money shall be applied as set forth in Articles 7 and 10 in the law with regard to control. Is that a law of the Greek Parliament? I suppose it is. I hope this Bill will be passed by the unanimous vote of this House, and I hope that, within the next few weeks, we shall find, not only that the Sultan is withdrawing his troops in Thessaly, but that Her Majesty's Government will take into consideration whether the Sultan shall not withdraw his troops from Crete, and that the Government will nominate Prince George, or some other person, as a Christian Governor to that island.
I really do not think that it is necessary for me to follow the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield in his review of the general policy of the Government, because, in the first place, most of the questions reviewed do not touch upon the subject matter of the present Measure. With regard to what he said as to sham sentiment, that has been answered by the hon. Gentleman behind him, and, with regard to his charge against the present Government—he blames the present Government that though they acceded to the suggestion of a blockade in Crete in 1897, they had refused to accede to the proposals to blockade Crete in 1896, and Greece in 1897—that can be left to the Government to deal with. I beg to say that I entirely concur with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucester, and share his hope that this Measure will be passed unanimously by this House. I do not in the least agree with the line which has been laid down by the hon. Member for Sheffield (Ecclesall Division), that it is a very objectionable thing that the three Powers which should guarantee the loan should be England, France, and Russia. When he said that this combination was commenced in 1893: if his memory does not take him further back than that period, surely his historical reading should take him back to a much earlier period, when a somewhat similar combination was formed in the days of Mr. George Canning, which resulted in the emancipation of Greece. It is not only on grounds of historical sentiment, but, on the grounds of expediency, a combination of this kind should be approved of, because those three Powers have the greatest interests in the settlement of the Eastern Question. No one, of course, supposes that their interests in all particulars are identical, but there are certain well-defined joint interests, on which it is expedient to bring about a combination of this character, which is a very proper thing to do. Because by so doing you can pave the way to an accord with regard to other matters upon which you may not be agreed. With regard to the provisions of this Measure I much regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not able to make a more definite statement as to the date by which the evacuation of Thessaly is to be effected. As I understood the reply which he gave, it did not go any further than that given a few days ago by the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in this House, or that which was given by Lord Salisbury in another place, when he said that the three Powers which were guaranteeing the loan would not be able to guarantee the evacuation of Thessaly by any particular date, but that they hoped the evacuation would take place within four weeks of the date of the publication of the loan. What we do not quite gather is what is termed the sanction of the matter. We understand that the period of four weeks arises under the Greco-Turkish Treaty, but what we want to know is, whether, in the event of any untoward occurrence in Crete, or any other part of the Turkish Empire, some pretext could be formed for the Turkish troops remaining in Thessaly after those four weeks. We do not quite understand by what power or by what protests it would be possible to compel the Turkish troops to leave Thessaly under those circumstances. I think there can be no doubt whatever, from what we have heard not only from English witnesses but from other sources, that the desire to evacuate Thessaly is shared by the Turkish officers and troops. The decision, of course, does not rest with them, but with the Sultan and his Government, and I think the desire of the Turkish troops and officers is in itself an aid to the guarantee, and if certain pecuniary inducements are given to the Sultan, no doubt they will evacuate Thessaly within those four weeks, or within a very short time not actually specified in the Convention. It is quite possible, however, that something might occur which might prevent the evacuation being carried into effect. An hon. Member sitting opposite has written to the Times recently upon the subject of the occupation of Thessaly by Turkey, and calls attention to the action of the Turkish troops in Thessaly and the efforts of the Turkish officers to preserve discipline, and he gives great credit to the men for their good behaviour; but then he points out that in the meanwhile, so long as 80,000 Turkish troops remain in Thessaly no permanent amelioration of the condition of the population could be expected. It is, after all, not only the Turkish troops and officers which have to be taken into account, but also the Turkish tax-gatherer. Then as to the method of evacuation which is to be adopted. There are many different methods of evacuating a country. There is what I may term the piecemeal method of evacuation, which was adopted by the German troops when they left France. They passed from one district to another, as portions of the war indemnity were paid, and there are other precedents for that method, but in the case of Thessaly we are dealing not with a great country but with one somewhat smaller than the county of Yorkshire, and I venture to hope that the evacuation of Thessaly will not be a piecemeal, or zone, evacuation, but a wholesale evacuation by the whole of the Turkish troops at the same time. I hope the expectation entertained by the Government as to the time when this evacuation shall be effected will be fulfilled, and I earnestly trust that nothing may take place in Crete or elsewhere which may in any way prevent or postpone it, and I also hope that nothing which takes place in Thessaly will be allowed to interfere with the Cretan Question in any way. These Questions are quite distinct and must be kept quite separate, and whatever takes place in regard to one should not be allowed to affect the other. I heartily congratulate the Government on the Bill they have brought in.
It would be painful for me to have to associate myself with the views expressed this afternoon by the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield, who has expressed the opinion that the evacuation of Thessaly was not a matter of very great importance, but though I support the view that it is a matter of importance, it is only fair to say that the behaviour of the Turkish Army is perfectly well-known, and I do not think any army of the civilised Powers would have shown that same moderation, or same behaviour. But, admitting all those facts, the condition of affairs necessitated by the occupation of a country by a foreign force is one that cannot be observed by us with equanimity. As everybody knows, the Turkish forces are as anxious to evacuate Thessaly as the Greeks are to see them go, and everybody is agreed that the sooner they go the better it will be for everybody concerned. But, with regard to this loan, my hon. Friend was silent. He had scarcely anything to say with regard to the subject under discussion—the loan itself. The loan is approved by the country and those who are helping to lend a considerable sum to Greece for the purpose of effecting the evacuation of Thessaly. Only a small portion of this is going towards the war indemnity—£3,800,000, and the way the money is to be applied has already been explained to the House. The people who benefit by this loan are not only the Greeks themselves, there are others. There are the Russians, who take £1,000,000 out of the money we are finding, and there are the Germans, who are looking after the interests of their bond holders, and who are under no guarantee whatever. Those countries both benefit nearly as much as Greece. The, Turks, in my opinion, have, on the whole, been very scurvily treated. But what seems to me to be only a matter of justice is that, in providing this large sum, there should be some provision made to enable the Greeks to pay the obligations laid upon them under the Treaty of Berlin. They have not, so far as I know, contributed a farthing towards their obligations. It seems to me that steps should be taken to effect this act of justice.
I do not enter into the general question, but I wish to call attention to the very generous terms on which the Treasury proposes to lend the money.
We do not agree to lend money at all.
You have agreed to guarantee the Loan, and you expect that the Loan will be issued at par. It is expected that the Loan will be issued at par, and I have no doubt it will be. It is clear that if a 2½ per cent. loan can be issued at par, redeemable by amortisation in 55 years by annual drawings, not like our loans where a sinking fund has to be provided for, but redeemable by annual drawings—if such a loan can be issued at par, it is quite clear that the Treasury can themselves raise money on those terms, because the guarantee of the French Government and of the Russian Government is of no financial value in this case, and, practically, the guarantee is a guarantee of the British Government. The French Government could not raise money at 2½ per cent., and the Russian Government could not. Therefore, in effect and in substance, this is a British loan; it is difficult to describe it in any other way, as the money is being raised upon British credit. Of course, it could be raised on British credit just as well for British purposes as for Greek purposes. It is believed that if Greece is able to pay the instalments which are provided for under this scheduled arrangement the Treasury will be free from loss. That being so, it appears to me that money can be raised on terms which allow interest at 2½ per cent., and not with a sinking fund, but on amortisation. The Treasury has repeatedly refused money to the taxpayers of the British Empire on these terms, although they have very much better security to offer than Greece can possibly give. Having given such terms to Greece, I can only hope that they will consider whether they cannot give equally favourable terms to borrowers within the British Empire.
The hon. Gentleman who has sat down has stated that the guarantee of the Loan is really given by the British Government. That is the price we had to pay for the telegram of the 100 Members—the telegram of encouragement which induced Greece to go to war. It is also the price we had to pay for the refusal of the British Government to join the whole of Europe in preventing a war by blockading the Greek ports. That refusal was persisted in, and it led to the war. The result is the necessity for this Loan of £6,800,000. Now I wish to point out that of this Loan of £6,800,000, only about one-half of it is due as the result of the war with Turkey. The rest of it is due to the desire to wipe out the old debts and deficits of a bankrupt Power; so that, having failed to prevent the war, we not only guarantee the indemnity due to Turkey, but positively the wreckage of Greek finance itself. That is rather a serious position to take up. I think it is a very unfortunate piece of finance. Then there is the extraordinary ambiguity of the Bill. In the first place, this Bill refers to the Convention—in fact, the Convention is part of the Bill—because the Loan is to be carried out on the terms set forth in the Convention. The Convention itself has not yet been ratified or even signed. The date of ratification is blank, and the date of signature is blank, and for all we can tell it may be the subject of serious modification before it is signed or ratified.
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to say that the Convention has been agreed to, and will be signed to-morrow.
That being the case, my criticism entirely falls to the ground. I have another remark to make, and it is this: this Bill proposes to guarantee the payment of an annuity under the articles of the Convention. Now, Sir, this Convention sets forth that the conditions of the Loan are to be settled by mutual agreement between the three guaranteeing Powers. Therefore I assume that, the Convention having not been signed, the conditions of the Loan have not yet been settled. It seems somewhat strange to me that the House should be asked to authorise Her Majesty's Government to guarantee so large a loan when the conditions are left to subsequent mutual agreement, and with the provision that the money raised is to be employed by a law which we have never seen and do not know. I trust the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will offer some explanation. The hon. Gentleman behind me has referred to the obligation already existing on the part of Greece towards Turkey. That obligation arose from the Convention of 1881–17 years ago. Not only are the interests of Turkey concerned, but the interests of the Council of Bondholders. Again and again representations have been made to these creditors of Turkey that a settlement would be made, and again and again, I believe, has the English Government avowed its readiness to enter into the consideration of a settlement of this portion of the Loan. I do not exactly blame Greece, because the primary responsibility of fixing the exact amount lay upon the shoulders of the Powers, and the Powers—excepting one of them—have refused to perform their duty in that respect. And now we go to the world and ask for a loan on behalf of Greece, not really for the indemnity due to Turkey, but in order to wipe out certain arrears and deficits Greece has already incurred—German and Russian debts, and so forth. We have a right to ask that you should consider that portion of the Ottoman Debt which, since 1881, has belonged to Greece, but which, nevertheless, she has not paid up to the present time. The right hon. Gentleman the other day led me to believe that the Loan would include that liability of Greece towards Turkey. I hope he will now be able to tell us that the Bill provides for the amount of the portion of the debt incurred by Greece in respect of territory ceded to her in 1881, and that, consequently, Turkish bondholders and the Turkish reserve may be to that extent relieved. That seems to me the most important consideration with regard to this loan, because I think it will be strange indeed if, when we are giving such assistance to Greece to enable her to pay doubtful debts, we should not say that she should pay those debts which are most undoubted.
Some of us on this side would not have addressed the House if it had not been for the remarks of the Gentlemen opposite. I think that so far as the great majority of the Members of the House are concerned, this Bill would probably have passed without discussion. The hon. Gentleman for Lynn Regis has spoken of the Bill, and the war itself, as having been caused by the telegram of sympathy sent by 100 Members of the House to the King of Greece. My hon. Friend bases his opposition to the Bill on that. This story has been told so often that hon. Members opposite seem entirely to have forgotten the circumstances under which that telegram was sent. It had no relation whatever to the subject-matter of this Bill or to the war which seven weeks later was declared by Turkey against Greece. The telegram had exclusive reference to the mission of Prince George of Greece and Colonel Vassos, and at the time it was sent there was every reason to suppose that war would have been averted on the mainland.
I spoke of the telegram as one of encouragement. I had in my mind the description of it given by Sir E. Egerton.
It must be remembered that the action of the King of Greece had been described by the head of Her Majesty's Government as an act of filibustering, although in the dispatch now laid before Parliament Lord Salisbury has stated that the act was quite natural under the circumstances of the case. The hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division, although he is opposed to hon. Members on this side of the House in respect to this matter, joined with us in attacking Lord Salisbury's policy.
I distinctly deny that I joined the right hon. Baronet. I attacked Lord Salisbury's policy on different grounds, and only occasionally.
The traditional policy of this country towards Greece was itself the Tory policy—the policy mainly of Canning, who was a Secretary of State in the then Administration. It is a curious fact that the club in this country which contains the flower of English Conservative youth bears the name of Canning. In supporting the Government in this loan proposal, we are supporting what has been the traditional policy of England, which, I believe, is a wise policy.
I hope the Debate will no longer be pursued into the distant fields of history. I confess it has seemed to me that hon. Members have addressed their observations to almost everything but the Bill immediately before them. I fail to catch, even in the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, anything beyond a reference to history—anything bearing upon this Measure.
I should not have made those observations if it had not been for the remarks of the hon. Gentleman opposite.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lynn Regis raised two points. He asked whether the conditions had been agreed upon under which the Loan should be issued. Yes; that was practically agreed upon by the Governments concerned. He also asked about the provision that had been made for the service of the Loan. I explained this fully to the Committee in moving the Resolution on which this Bill is based the other day, and I explained at the same time the conditions which had been agreed on for the issue of the Loan, Therefore, I can only refer my hon. Friend to what I then stated, which includes the whole matter in question. The hon. Member for Eye seemed to doubt—I think unnecessarily—whether the provisional agreements which have been made are sufficient really to ensure the evacuation of Thessaly. I admit that the actual day for the evacuation has not yet been fixed, because, as I informed the hon. Member in reply to a question, the date depends upon the occurrence of certain events which have not yet been finally concluded, but which, I hope, will be concluded within the next few days. The last of these events will be a notification of the issue of the Loan. When that is done, then the time will commence to run, at the end of which evacuation will be completed; and, further, as I ventured to point out to the Committee the other day, the provisions under which it has been agreed that the indemnity should be paid to Turkey are certain to insure that it would be to the practical interest of Turkey that the evacuation shall be effected at as early a, date as possible, and shall be completely effected in order to secure to Turkey the payment of the indemnity itself.
What about the Greek share of the debt?
I must make inquiry on that point. The Loan covers the external obligations of Greece, but I will make inquiry on the point mentioned by my hon. Friend. I have only now to express the hope that the House will be willing to assent to the Second Reading without pursuing further the Debate on the policy of this country towards Greece, and that the Bill will receive the unanimous support of the House.
I think it is only right that my right hon. Friend should inform the House what steps have been taken to secure the payment of the interest on the Loan. The House has been asked to guarantee a Loan for a bankrupt State, which in the past has acted fraudently, and in this Bill I see nothing to protect the taxpayers of this country from being left in the lurch. I think any ordinary person in life would look for some security to enable him to recover his money—
I explained that fully the other day. I said that certain revenues of Greece had been set aside, and placed under an International Board of Control. These revenues will be collected by a body responsible to that Board, and will be applied to this purpose.
Yes, Sir; I fully understand that, and it looks exceedingly pretty on paper, but I should like to know who stands at the back of the Committee to carry out their behests. I should like, furthermore, to know whether my right hon. Friend contemplates sending for that purpose a fleet, which, by the way, if sent before, would have stopped the war? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean said that the celebrated telegram, for which he has offered this tardy apology—
Order, order! The hon. Member for Lynn Regis has made a charge, and that charge has been met by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean. There must be limits placed on the discussion.
Yes, Sir; of course I understand that there are limits, but I thought the limits might extend to my reply. At any rate, I hope it will be fully understood that the right hon. Gentleman's arguments are not accepted on this side of the House any more than his statement that Canning was a Tory. Canning was a sham Tory, and was notoriously out of harmony with his colleagues on this very question, as the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well. There is one aspect of this Bill which I think the House would do well to bear in mind: We are asked to associate ourselves with Russia and France in the movements from which other Powers stand aloof. Now, this is a matter of notoriety. It has been admitted by Ministers, and I think it would not be denied by anyone, that great injury has already occurred to this country from the anti-Turkish attitude which our Government has assumed and which is emphasised in connection with this Loan. Now, I do not hesitate to say that our troubles on the frontier of India are quite correctly described by my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury as being due, in the first place, undoubtedly to that attitude. I should like to know whether it is right for this country, associated as we are with the government of 50,000,000 of Mahomedans, to put ourselves unnecessarily in a prominent position as special enemies of the Sultan. Does anyone believe that Lord Beaconsfield or Lord Palmerston, or any of the great statesmen in the middle of this century, advocated a Turkish alliance out of any great admiration for that Government? No, Sir; on the contrary, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is an old colleague of Lord Beaconsfield, must very often have heard him advocate an alliance with Turkey, not out of regard for the Sultan, or any admiration for the Pashas, but because, in his judgment, it was necessary for this country to maintain relations of a friendly character with the religious heads of so large a body of Her Majesty's subjects. Well, Sir, we are now asked to associate ourselves with a movement which is in spirit anti-Turkish, except in so far as this money goes, some of it, I am glad to think, into the pockets of the Turks, but as for the remainder, a considerable portion is to be devoted to the fortification of Port Arthur and in furtherance of kindred objects, which can scarcely be described as conducive to the interests of this country.
I do not think that anyone will complain that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Thanet has addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer an inquiry which will enable him to inform the House whether he can give in greater detail further information as to the precise arrangements with regard to the Loan, or, if I may so call it, the appropriation of the revenues assigned to the payment of this Loan. Now, if I understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer correctly, the matter stands in about as satisfactory a manner as any arrangement which, of course, deals with an unsatisfactory condition of things can stand. The arrangement, if I followed him correctly, is founded upon the administration of the assigned revenues of Turkey. No doubt many Members are aware that the bondholders of Turkey were, several years ago, protected by an arrangement under which certain revenues were assigned, and specially assigned, to a board upon which one representative of all the great foreign Powers sat, and that board has the right and power and duty of collecting what are called assigned revenues. If I understand the present arrangement, it is very much the same. I think it will be admitted by Members on both sides of the House, that the arrangement for the assigned revenues in Turkey has worked exceedingly well, and I see no reason why it should not work well in Greece. I can only say that I hope the arrangement, originally made in Turkey, and made simply and solely for the protection of the foreign bondholders, will be so extended to Greece that in a manner it will secure the restoration of order to the suffering finances of that unfortunate kingdom. There can be no doubt at all that financial recklessness is the curse of the small countries of Europe. I venture to say that in the same way the only adequate protection under this arrangement which can be held out with any prospect to the unfortunate taxpayer of Greece is such an arrangement as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has foreshadowed, which I believe is as good a protection as can possibly be given consistently with the disturbed state of things with which Her Majesty's Government and all the Governments of the Powers of Europe have had to deal in consequence of the late war. One observation has fallen from the hon. Member for King's Lynn, to which I will allude. He brought up the long since dead claim of Turkey to have a certain portion of a certain debt placed upon the unfortunate shoulders of the people of Greece. Why, I thought that had passed into the limbo of forgotten things! But if it is to be brought up you may be asked why some of these funds may not be used for the benefit of Turkey in the same way as they ought to be used for the benefit of Germany and other Powers? If that question is to be asked I desire to give an answer. May I remind hon. Members opposite that the claim of Turkey to have a portion of her debt placed upon Bulgaria, Greece, and other little principalities rests upon one instrument, and when you search the instrument of her title you will find that that is the Treaty of Berlin? It is upon that same document that the claim of Europe rests that Turkey should do justice to Armenia.
May I correct the noble Lord? The claim I make is not on the Treaty of Berlin, but on the subject of the Convention made by all the Powers on the 24th May, 1881.
Well, that Convention arose out of the Treaty of Berlin, and I was quite aware of that. When I occupied the position of Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs the Treaty of Berlin was the one out of which all subsequent Conventions came. When you got the arrangement of 1881 you got certain concessions of territory, and it was owing to those concessions that Turkey was to have a portion of the debt assigned to her. I venture to say that when Turkey does her duty in regard to Armenia, then, and then only, will Turkey have a right to say, "Let the other clauses be carried out," because you must read the Treaty as a whole. It is like a contract between two parties. I do not desire, of course, after the appeal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to follow this subject into the ramifications of the Preamble of the Bill, because this Bill recites the agreement practically entered into between the Government of Her Majesty and the Governments of France and Russia; and the Bill has been proved—and it does not require any argument or illustration—that the policy which has always been put forward from this side of the House, and especially by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, that the true way to deal with these two questions is by agreement, on historical lines, between France and Russia and this country. That policy is the correct one, and the only policy that can preserve the peace of Europe from the horrors of a great war. I am told by the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet that this policy belongs to the time of Mr. Canning, who invented it, and that he was not a true Tory. Let me remind him of this, that I do not think he will deny that the Duke of Wellington was a true Tory, and the policy of Mr. Canning was founded upon the wishes of the Duke of Wellington. Therefore the high figure of the Duke of Wellington stands beside the figure of Mr. Canning, and I would ask him if he can expect the support of hon. Members upon that side of the House if he says that the Duke of Wellington was not a true Tory. I am not able to discuss the whole of the history of that time between the Duke of Wellington and Mr. Canning, neither do I desire to do so. It is a question which he himself raised, and I have a right to hold him to it. There was no disagreement between the Duke of Wellington and Mr. Canning. The Emperor of Russia was at that time hesitating as to whether he would view the Greek question—
Order, order! The noble Lord is wandering from the subject.
I bow to your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I was only hoping that as the hon. Member opposite had been allowed to make a statement I might be allowed to reply to it. I hope that we shall carry this Bill, and hold it forth to Greece as a sign of the goodwill of this country and our desire that she may escape from the perilous position in which she has fallen. This Bill is one which everyone of us on this side of the House can support with cordiality, because, as I have already said, it is a justification of that very policy which during the last two years has been steadily and consistently advocated from these Benches.
I do not think the House need have any fear at hearing me called upon, because, little as I have interfered in the course of Debate, I feel confident that they are assured of two things, namely—that in whatever part of the House I may sit, I shall be guilty neither of prolonged declamation nor of intellectual arrogance. On behalf of 10,000 taxpayers in this country, I think it is my duty before the discussion on this Bill closes to state that I think the Government are establishing a very dangerous precedent in this Measure if we are to believe—and I have every reason to believe that what they have told us is true—that they have exerted every influence known to diplomacy of which they are capable and could bring to bear in order to prevent Greece entering into this suicidal war, and then the war, in spite of their endeavours, took place. Those efforts failed, and on behalf of those whom I have the honour to represent I protest against this country being asked to guarantee the losses of a so-called Power who disregarded our advice. If this is to be the sort of policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government to get Greece out of her difficulties by providing her with money to cover a loss which she has brought on herself, I am afraid our diplomacy in the future will be crowned with as small a measure of success as they apparently have been in the past.
Read a second time, and committed for To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
Public Buildings Expenses Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second time":—
I beg to move—
I object, in the first place, to the general financial character of this Bill; and, secondly, I oppose it because I hold that even if the House thinks fit to take the surplus of the year and devote it to an object which is not at present by law established, the object which this Bill proposes to set up is not one for which sound reasons can be adduced. Now, Sir, it is a Bill which provides a large sum of money for the erection of certain public buildings in the County of London, and it departs in all important particulars from the usual practice and custom of the House, which, I venture to submit, would be far more laudable when providing money for the erection of public buildings, because, under this Bill, instead of providing the money which may be required from year to year as the Estimates do, the House will be required under this Bill to vote an authority to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to expend money to the extent of £250,000 for certain large works set down in the Schedule. One of the provisions of the Bill to which I most strongly object is that in section 3 of clause 1, which proposes, in regard to the Sinking Fund, to apply the surplus of the financial year, which closes on the 31st, day of March, 1898, to the extent of £2,500,000 sterling for the purposes of this Bill, and authorises them to make payments as they are called for during the year. Now, the law, as we all know, provides that the surplus should be devoted to the Sinking ing Fund and the payment of the National Debt, and I think we ought to give some very much stronger reasons than any which have been laid before the House by the Government to justify their demands on the present occasion, to abrogate the law in this regard, and apply the surplus of the year to the building of these great establishments. If the Sinking Fund arrangement which was solemnly come to by the House is to be broken, it ought only to be done under the demand of some national emergency; and if there ever was a time when the Government was not justified in interfering with the arrangements of the Sinking Fund and the payment of the National Debt that time is the present one. What are the circumstances—the financial circumstances—of this year coming upon the top of similar circumstances in the year we have just passed over? We are now in a period of super-abounding prosperity, a period of prosperity which I daresay has never been equalled in the whole history of this country, a prosperity which I shall show is entirely confined to the island of Great Britain, and is in no degree shared by the island from which I come. But in this country we are undoubtedly passing through a period if extraordinary super-abounding prosperity so far, and it would be an unfortunate thing for any Government to accept this prosperity as the basis of calculation for its expenditure. We have had surpluses year after year, and I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have this year a surplus of about £2,000,000. In spite of these recurring surpluses, and in spite of times of peace and prosperity beyond all precedent in the financial history of the country, the income tax has been maintained at 8d. in the £. Year after year has gone by, and this year is to follow the example of its predecessors, and no relief of taxation whatever is to be proposed for the people of this country. And, Sir, not only has the policy of the Government been to appropriate or spend the surplus of the successful year and to propose no relief of taxation in the country, but they have once and again suspended the operation of the Sinking Fund and appropriated the surpluses which ought to have gone towards the reduction of the National Debt. Sir, that prevails pari passu at the same time with the immense and increasing expenditure, and what the House is entitled to assume is this: that, if the Government go on and continue on their present lines, in a very few years, without any war or foreign competition, even if the country escapes that foreign competition, it will be necessary, in order to maintain the present scale of expenditure, to increase the income tax by a penny or twopence in the £. That is a monstrous condition, of things, against which we are entitled to protest. I protest, in addition to that, against the enormous extravagance in increasing the expenditure of the Government, and against this policy of year after year going in for seizing upon the surpluses and devoting them to such projects as are contained in this Bill. I ask the House, by adopting my Amendment, not to approve of the policy of the Government in appropriating the surplus of the year for this scheme of expenditure, because I hold that if you are going to suspend the law in regard to these surpluses, and to divert them from the purposes which Parliament originally intended them for—namely, to go to the reduction of the National Debt—you ought only to do so in the event of a national emergency, and that money so taken from the payment of the National Debt ought to be devoted only to urgent necessities. I put it to any hon. Member, is that test satisfied by the present proposal of the Government? What emergency, or what urgency, is there for these enormous buildings in London? The question of these buildings has been before the House year after year, and although I daresay it may be possible for the Government to say a great deal in favour of some of these great buildings, I am perfectly certain that it will not be possible for the Government, or for any Member in this House, to maintain that any one of these amounts is of national emergency, or is urgently demanded, and I fail to see on what grounds the Government justify their conduct in abstaining from pursuing the ordinary routine practice of placing certain sums on the Estimates for the coming year for the erection of these buildings. I hold that it is impossible for anybody to maintain that these buildings are a most urgent necessity. I believe, Sir, that I should be out of order in going into any detail or at any length into certain other purposes which I hold ought to have precedence over these items set forth in the Schedule if we do seize upon the surplus. Coming as I do from a country where at the present moment the people are starving for want of food—from a country which has been denied for the last two years a sum of £600,000 or £700,000 a year to which she is entitled, on the specific ground that the state of agriculture was not so depressed as it is in this country—I say it is monstrous that this surplus, which would have enabled the Government to pay to the unfortunate Irish people that which they have been defrauded of during the last two years, is to be taken now it is available and spent in this city, where God knows enough money has been spent already. Now, just look at this aspect of the Bill. This £2,500,000 is proposed to be taken, and in that sum there is, according to the calculations of the Treasury, about £250,000 from Ireland. All this money proposed in the Bill is to be spent in London, and is it not a cruel injustice that you are undertaking to spend, under this Bill, £200,000 contributed by the taxpayers of Ireland, when you are making no provision whatever—I am hardly exaggerating when I say no provision—for those people who are actually starving in Ireland? The least the Government might do is to give out of this surplus a couple of hundred thousand pounds which will completely and amply deal with the distress and starvation which exist and are becoming desperate, in the west of Ireland, before they seize on the whole of this vast sum of money to be spent in London. Turning for a moment to the various items mentioned in the Bill, I appeal to the Radical Members, apart altogether from the question of Ireland, not to support this Measure. There cannot be the slightest doubt that London gets more than her share of national funds. That in one short Bill a sum of £2,500,000 is to be spent in this city is, I think, a most unreasonable demand, and it ought to be accompanied by some share to be spent in provincial towns. There are two items in this Schedule which I desire particularly to criticise. The first is the sum of £475,000 for the War Office. During the last two or three months a demand has been put forward for a root and branch reform of the War Office and the Horse Guards, and we were led to believe that one of the results of the present organisation of the War Office was that the millions voted by this House year after year, and which, I regret to see, are increasing year after year, are, to a large extent, wasted, and that the country does not get value for them. Men, without distinction of Party, and experts on both sides of the House, have filled columns of the Times in pointing this out, and that there could be no security for an efficient Army, and that value would not be given for the money voted unless there were a complete root and branch reform of the War Office."That the Public Buildings [Expenses] Bill be read a second time this day six months."
The reform of the War Office does not arise on the business before the House.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am quite aware of that. I was not going into the matter at any length. I think it is a very cruel thing for any Government to ask this House for two and a half millions of money—when they do not propose any reform in the War Office—to build a new War Office for these gentlemen. I think they are beginning at the wrong end. I think they should reform the War Office before building a new War Office, and I think that is not unreasonable. I had no idea of entering at length into the condition of the War Office, but I think it is not an unreasonable demand that before the country pays two and a half millions it should be assured that the business is properly and effectively done. What assurance have we that it might not be possible, by reforms in the War Office, to obtain more than sufficient money to pay for the building of a new office? And if that be so, I think we ought to hold back the money for the building of a new office until we see the work is done as efficiently and cheaply as possible. Now, there is another item to which I take exception on its merits. I refer to the item for £800,000 for the Science and Art buildings at South Kensington. I do not pretend to know, or to have any technical knowledge, or any knowledge as to the requirements at South Kensington, and I should be the last man to grudge the money to make these art treasures safe; but I protest on behalf of other cities in the Kingdom—on behalf of Dublin, Belfast, and Cork—against this House being asked to vote £800,000 of the taxpayers' money on building gigantic structures, and spending those gigantic sums while giving nothing at all to provincial cities.
The hon. Member need not trouble to appeal on behalf of Belfast.
A great many people in Belfast have more confidence in me than in the hon. Member. My experience of Belfast is that it is just as anxious to have money spent there as anywhere else, but the Government can strike out from my proposal any grant made to Belfast. What I do think is that some explanation is due to the House. I think that when the Government are going to make a great demand for science and art in the city of London they ought to consider, at the same time, all those other cities in the Kingdom—Manchester, Edinburgh, Dublin, and Cork—I leave out Belfast—where any grants are given for science and art museums, and that a reasonable proportion of the sum required by London should be offered to these other cities at the same time. If they want £800,000 for London, I think they ought to give a fair sum in proportion to the grants already given to other cities. I think £800,000 is entirely too large a sum. I should like to ask where are the Votes for the new Admiralty building to come to an end. We had the original Estimate, which was immensely increased by, it was said, the foundations. Now we have an additional Estimate. Last year it was said we had completed the Admiralty building. Now we are informed the building will require £275,000, although no part of that money is required for the site, as I believe the site for the proposed addition is already in the hands of the Government. Now there is to be an additional Vote for the Admiralty, and the only explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that this was in consequence of the enormous increase of the Fleet, which necessitated an additional staff of clerks, and therefore they would require a large addition to the Admiralty. But surely no addition of clerks and officials to the Admiralty, consequent on recent additions to the Fleet, could possibly require an expenditure of £275,000. I think the House is entitled to some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. These are the opinions which I desire to express on the items, but I rose chiefly for the purpose of protesting against the policy of the Government in seizing on the surplus of the year, and spending it all in the City of London, while there are people starving—actually starving—in Ireland, a country which has contributed fully £200,000 to this two and a half millions. I beg to move.
formally seconded the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, as the Chairman of the Committee which is considering this question, I may be allowed to say a few words. I must first of all congratulate my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works on having taken in charge this great task. The condition of our public departments has been, during many years, not only a great scandal to this country, but also a great source of expense, extra cost of administration, and leakage in various directions to a very large amount. This is one of those questions which in one sense bears delay, because there is not any particular moment, any exceptional pressure or crisis; but the evil grows, and will continue to grow, except it is arrested by a master hand, and I am glad that it has fallen to the lot of a Conservative Government to introduce this large and comprehensive reform. My observations will be confined entirely to the subject of the museum, and here I am glad to find my right hon. Friend has dealt boldly with the subject. The amount of £800,000 is a magnificent contribution to the art and science collections. I believe there can be no doubt whatever of the great value of these collections. There has been ample evidence laid before our Committee, and we have ventured to embody the result of those recommendations in one sentence, which I will read to the House—
They desire the extension of the building, first, on grounds of safety. I believe it is not a safe thing that these valuable treasures should be massed together as they are now. No doubt it is the case that by vigilant management on the part of the police, and a desire to observe order on the part of the crowds which visit the collections, little damage has been done up to the present time. But there is still danger, and it is certainly the opinion of those who have examined the subject that these specimens of great value are exposed to considerable risk day by day, and that except some means are taken by giving more area, more floor space, and the like, great injury may take place at any time. But there is another question beyond that of safety. That is exhibition. The collections are now so crowded that they cannot be seen by the ordinary visitor, and I believe it is no exaggeration to say, as some of the witnesses have said, that a better exhibition of these articles will be a new revelation to the public, who are by no means aware of the precious treasures at their command. But we have to deal not with the public only, but with that most important section of the public who are likely not only to visit the collections, but to make careful study of them also. At present it is impossible that a large number of students can duly examine these magnificent and delicate objects. It is quite certain that those in command of the museum do allow every facility in their power. In fact, when a student shows knowledge and a desire to extend his information, he is permitted, in many instances, to take specimens from the cases, and is allowed to make copies in the room of a responsible officer. But this should not be conducted under such conditions. It ought to be perfectly easy, and there ought to be no difficulty in obtaining information. Coming back again to the value of the collections, I may refer to the memorial presented by a number of most distinguished men, including the President of the Royal Academy, all of them practising various branches of the arts as a profession, to the Vice-President of the Council. They state that the South Kensington Museum was founded in order that—"They feel bound to express their sense of the importance of completing the building on the east side of Exhibition Road with a view to the safe deposit and satisfactory exhibition of the art collections (including the Indian section now on the west side of the road in a hired building) at South Kensington."
Then they proceed—"All classes might be induced to investigate those common principles of taste which may be traced in the works of excellence of all ages. The extent to which the museum has stimulated an interest and educated opinion in Art matters in the country, and the profound impression it has made on the progress and revival of what may be termed the industrial arts, is well known and acknowledged by all those in position to judge not only in this country, but on the Continent and America, where the South Kensington Museum has been avowedly taken as a pattern on which to found various National Museums."
Now, Sir, that quotation is a sufficient justification for what has been done. The hon. Member who spoke last made the complaint that this exhibition was of use to England and Wales only. We have had, however, valuable testimony of the services rendered to several districts by the circulation of works in their midst. The hon. Member, no doubt, takes an interest in Donegal, which I also know as an English visitor, and he will find among the evidence in favour of the value of the circulation conducted by the South Kensington Museum, the following expression of warm thanks from Donegal—"We share the opinion that no more fitting national memorial of the 60th anniversary of the accession to the throne of Her Most Gracious Majesty could be made than the completion of a museum which owed its existence to Her Royal Consort, and which Her Majesty has declared that she has taken under 'her special and personal protection.'"
That county has gained by the circulation of works of art from South Kensington, and Belfast has also shared in the same advantage. Therefore, the benefits of this collection are now enjoyed by Ireland as well as by England and Wales. We have not yet received any evidence with reference to science. That part of the investigation is still before us, but we have other testimony on former occasions. There was a Departmental Committee in 1883 which spoke in high terms of the science collection. That Committee stated that it was badly accommodated, and that it required the most careful attention, with a view to its proper exhibition. If that were the case in 1883, it is still more the case at present, for the years since that Committee reported have been years of expansion and growth, and I venture to say that that growth and expansion must continue, because the circulation is increasing. I desire the country to have the advantage of that circulation and distribution of objects of art, and it is quite impossible that it can be conducted without increased space for complicated machinery of distribution. Then the Committee feel great anxiety that the eastern side of the museum should be confined to art. It does not follow that every room is to be fully occupied now, but, at the same time, there must be opportunity of adding new specimens as occasion arises and circumstances demand. Some of us feel anxiety as to the housing of any part of the science collection on the western side. The science collection is intimately connected with the schools, and, if delicate machines have to be carried from one part of a great building to another, there is not only great cost of transport, but risk of injury. I hope the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works will give a fuller explanation, if not to-night, at any rate at a future time. I hope he will be able to state that it is not part of his plan that so large a sum as £2,500,000 should be placed at the command of the Government without the House having an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the subject. I think also that those who manage these collections ought to have the plans submitted to them, if not in detail, at tiny rate in their main outlines. They ought to have an opportunity of explaining how far the plans commend themselves to their better judgment, and how far in some particulars they are capable of improvement. These, however, are questions of detail, and I certainly do feel grateful to the Government for having undertaken this task. I think it will result in the progress of industrial, and also of decorative, art, and I feel sure that a great step will be taken not only to increase the material wealth of this country, but also to promote the spread of that refinement which tends so much to promote the culture, comfort, and happiness of the population."I am directed to tender yon the sincere thanks of the Committee of the Donegal Art Class Exhibition for your kindness in lending the collection of works of art for which application was made to your Department."
I do not wish to discuss the general question raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo, but to call attention to one particular point which I hope the House will think fit to consider; I mean the desirability of making provision in these new blocks of public buildings for a comprehensive library which will serve the needs of a great department, and, to some extent, the needs of the public. The House is no doubt aware that nearly all our great public departments have libraries—the Foreign Office has a library; the Indian Office has one, which is extremely valuable, but seems very often undergoing a process of reconstruction; the Education Department, too, has just formed a library; the Treasury has a very good legal library, stowed away in a rather inconvenient place; and the Board of Trade has one. But all these libraries are insufficient. There is not one of them which meets the needs even of its own department, and there are many branches of knowledge which are very imperfectly represented even by all the departments taken together. I have known a case in which Members of the Government had occasion to consult a very important publication, and it could be found in no library within reach nearer than the British Museum. But even in cases where libraries exist they are inadequate, and the rooms are dark or otherwise inconvenient. This is specially the case with the Privy Council Library, which ought to be a legal library, but is not, so that the judges who sit there have to borrow books from other libraries at considerable inconvenience. It would, therefore, be eminently desirable if the First Commissioner of Works could find room in these plans for such a library as I suggest. It would be useful for the department, and, of course, it is for the department that provision ought to be made. The library would also be valuable for that section of the public that is specially interested in the business of legislation. There are many organisations located in this part of London which have occasion for a convenience of this kind. The representatives of the Colonies, for instance, have frequently occasion to consult books on Colonial law, but they have not a library available, although such a one as I contemplate might be very useful to them, and to some sections of the public, although not thrown open to the public generally, but only to persons interested in these matters. It might be desirable also to provide a few consultation rooms, one for the use of the public and the other for the department. The books would, of course, be primarily Government publications, and we might also receive in exchange for our own Blue Books copies of the publications issued by the Governments of the Colonies and of the United States, as well as the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, and other countries of Europe. I am not aware of any place in this country where such a collection of legislative publications exists; it does not exist even in the Law Courts. A large number of statistical books and a considerable number of publications on various branches of economics might also be kept in such a library as I have described. The space we have available in the Houses of Parliament for our Blue Books does not permit us to extend our library in this way, but the creation of a library such as I have suggested would be greatly facilitated by the transference to it from the existing libraries of the Departments of many of their books. A sum of money might be set apart for the purchase of such books of general interest as might be useful, and, of course, the Colonies and foreign countries will be quite willing to exchange their Government publications for ours. It would be worth while doing that if we had proper accommodation, but the space for the library I am contemplating would not be very large, and so many improvements have been made of late years in the method of disposing books that probably three or four rooms of moderate size would be sufficient for the purpose. I may add that a library of this kind exists at Paris, attached to the Ministry of Justice, and I am told it is found of very great service by the public as well as by the Department. The Congress at Washington has a similar library, but very much larger, corresponding rather to the British Museum Library, and a much greater building than we have space available for erecting in connection with our public offices. At the same time I hope the First Commissioner of Works, in any rearrangement of the rooms in the Houses of Parliament, will see that no space is encroached upon that can be saved, that will provide for a union of the libraries of the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and an extension of both. I shall not enlarge upon the question of a library common to both Houses. I trust, however, the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works will consider the advisability of providing a library such as I have endeavoured to describe, which, I think, the Department will support, and which, I believe, can be done without any great expenditure of space or money.
I understand the intention of the First Commissioner of Works with regard to the Admiralty is to harmonise the old and the new buildings. What I fear will happen is that the right hon. Gentleman, in order to secure space, will fill up the courtyard with a hideous square block that will spoil its architectural effect. I would suggest, if additional room is required, the utilising of the official residence of the First Lord of the Admiralty. I do not suggest that there ought to be an eviction of the First Lord, but there is no more reason why the First Lord of the Admiralty should have an official residence than should the First Lord of the Treasury. I hope the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works will consider this point worthy of his attention. I submit it will be a great improvement upon the plans suggested, and will preserve the harmony of the buildings. As a member of the Science and Art Committee I join in the regret expressed by the Member for Battersea, that, while we were about it, we were unable to secure the whole of the Great George Street site. At the same time I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works upon the fact that his name will be associated in the future with the greatest improvements that have taken place in London for a considerable time.
I am opposed to this Bill, but in the first place I desire in say that I cannot sympathise with the hon. Gentleman opposite, who apparently wants to make the First Lord of the Admiralty sleep in his own office. [Mr. LEGH: I said, sleep outside of it.] I cannot sympathise either with the remark of the late President of the Board of Trade, or the hon. Member for Aberdeen, who desires to build a library for Blue Books. My opinion is that, instead of building a library, we should despatch these books to the Crematorium at Woking. As to this building scheme, if the proposal were to erect these offices at the expense of England alone, I would have no objection. I do not care what offices you build, provided you build them at your own expense. Ireland is asked to contribute a quarter of a million towards building new offices in London. But Ireland does not want a War Office, she has no Army, and has no need of a War Office; she has no interest in the Far East, and has no need of an Admiralty Office. If you want these offices for yourselves, build them at your own expense, but do not ask Ireland, whom you have plundered for the last ninety years, of at least two millions a year, to contribute towards the expense. I see that there are six proposals in this Bill; and, first, with regard to the War Office, I desire to say this: If we are to have a new War Office, I think we ought to have a War Office in Dublin; and I will give the reason why. There is at present, I believe, an Army clothing factory in Ireland, and as you have only a War Office in London and not in Dublin or in Ireland, it has been the custom from the time when this Army clothing factory was established in that country, to have sent up from Limerick specimens of the clothing to Pimlico before it was accepted or approved of. If you had a War Office in Dublin, it would be able to approve of these articles there; and, therefore, I say—though otherwise Ireland wants no War Office at all, so far as I can see—if you are to have a War Office here, you ought to have an establishment in Dublin, and the Government ought to have a branch of the War Office there. Well, Sir, in the next place, I see there are £800,000 to be spent on an addition to the South Kensington Museum. Sir, one of the great grievances of Ireland for the last 10 or 15 or 20 years, has been the despotism exercised over Ireland in regard to the matters disposed of by the management of the South Kensington Department. Year after year, during all the time I have occupied a seat in this House, complaints have been made again and again—complaints which were never answered—about the insolent action of this Department to Ireland whenever they asked for any favour from the South Kensington Department. I wonder there is not something asked for the British Museum. I fully expected there would be a proposal for the extension of that institution in another part of London, but what benefit we gain from the British Museum or from South Kensington I fail to see. A short time ago, as the House is probably aware, some interesting Irish antiquities were sent to the British Museum—[Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise on this Vote.] Well, Sir, it was only by way of illustration that I was going to mention it. The matter is only an illustration of my general point—namely, that these British institutions are of no earthly use to Ireland at all, and that to ask Ireland, therefore, to contribute a single penny towards their cost, is really one of the greatest grievances any country can endure. Well, Sir, the last item in this Vote is for Post Office buildings (Queen Victoria Street and West Kensington), £300,000. Now, I understand that one of the buildings, the building to be erected at West Kensington, is for the Post Office Savings Bank Department; and, really, I wish the House to understand that there is a grievance here in which, even if they have not sympathised with the observations I have already offered, they will probably think there is something. This Savings Bank Department is a department for the whole of the United Kingdom, so that it comes to this, that a depositor in Dublin cannot get his money out until his book and application are sent on to London. The same thing happens with regard to Cork, and every other town in Ireland, and the same thing happens with regard to Scotland; and, really, it is the most preposterous and ridiculous thing in the world to imagine that there should not be a department in Dublin for Irish investors where their applications might be entertained on the spot. But, on the contrary, Irishmen and Scotchmen both have to have their little accounts made up in this great City of London, where, I understand, there are miles and miles of passages devoted to the storage of these pass-books in a department to which you must apply if you want to get out 1s. 6d. in Ireland. Why, Sir, the thing is perfectly ridiculous, and if hon. Gentlemen opposite will speak candidly, they will admit, at all events with regard to this item, that there ought to be in Dublin, and I venture to say also in Edinburgh, a branch at least of the Savings Bank Department which would be able to deal on the spot with all these matters, Irish and Scotch, which are now dealt with in London, and must be dealt with in London alone. It is because the Bill proposes expenditure from which Ireland will derive no share whatever that I oppose it; and may I point out, in conclusion, the result of all expenditure of this sort upon our financial relations? The Bill involves an expenditure in London of £2,550,000, which will go into English pockets; English lawyers will be employed, English architects will be employed, and English working men will be employed; every single penny of this money will go into English pockets. If it were admitted in the annual financial accounts that this was English expenditure, I would not complain; but what is done? In the accounts showing the financial relations between England and Ireland, this expenditure, which goes to English purposes, and goes into English pockets, is put down as Imperial expenditure. I say that is an instance of the manipulation and cooking of accounts with which I do not think any respectable person would sympathise in his heart; and for this reason, as well as those I have already given, I repeat that I regret that I cannot vote against this Bill, because I have "paired."
I have many points of sympathy with the hon. Member in regard to Irish finance, but I draw a great distinction between this Bill and the question of the financial relations between England and Ireland, which is one that is to be threshed out hereafter. I desire to give my support to the Second Reading of this Bill as a very practical and comprehensive scheme, on which I gladly congratulate my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works. I understood him to say, Sir, that the exterior design for these new buildings would be entrusted to an architect outside the Office of Works, while the interiors would be constructed by the Office of Works. I will go a step further, and beg him to reconsider the question of designing the exterior, and see if he cannot induce Sir John Taylor to undertake the charge of designing the whole building. Sir, I believe every First Commissioner of Works has had the fullest confidence in Sir John Taylor as one of the best public servants we ever had, and as a most capable architect. Many attacks have been made on the Office of Works with regard to public buildings, and those attacks have been largely made under a misapprehension. The other night the Office of Works was held to be responsible for all the atrocities of the Law Courts, but I imagine that the personages who really ought to be held responsible for those atrocities were Her Majesty's judges for the time being. The funds were not provided by the country, but they came out of Chancery funds, suitors' fees, and certain payments by the Treasury as representing the value of the old Law Courts at Westminster. The judges, I imagine, were wholly responsible for the selection of the architect, the approval of the design, and the carrying out of the work. The design was subject to open competition. Mr. Barry was first for the interior plan, and Mr. Street for the elevation, and the judges actually proposed that those two architects should carry out the work together. Mr. Barry refused, and Mr. Street, therefore, carried out the whole work. The Office of Works was certainly not responsible, and I say that if they had been they would have made a much better job of it. Sir John Taylor, if anybody desires to see specimens of his work, has designed Bow Street Police Court, the new Bankruptcy Court building in Carey Street, and the last addition to the Record Office in Chancery Lane, Every one of those buildings is admirably designed for its purpose. They have an excellent external appearance, and my belief is that the new addition to the Record Office is one of the best and most handsome buildings erected in London during the last 50 years. I believe Sir John Taylor would design the buildings for the new front in Parliament Street in harmony with its great surroundings; and, knowing as he does better than anybody else what mistakes have been made by architects in the buildings previously erected by the Government, he would not err in the same manner.
Was Sir John Taylor responsible for the new Admiralty buildings?
No; Sir John Taylor did not design the new Admiralty buildings. I beg my right hon. Friend to keep a free hand in this matter as far as he can, and to beware of interference by eminent individuals and by committees, and even, I would respectfully say, by the Cabinet, When any considerable number of eminent individuals begin to interest themselves in questions of this sort, the result generally is one of muddle and chaos, and that is illustrated by the external appearance, although not the internal fitness, of the new Admiralty buildings. There is mess and muddle in regard to the external design of those buildings, which are only saved from the doom of failure because the Office of Works had so much to do with the internal arrangements. Now, Sir, in regard to the front in Parliament Street, I wish to say a word or two. As that matter was originally put forward in 1894–95, when I had the honour of holdding the office which the right hon. Gentleman now occupies, personally I formed rather a strong opinion that the best treatment would be to set the west side of Parliament Street at an angle, and I still hold that view. But that was considered by the Sites Committee, and that Committee took a pretty unanimous view contrary to my own; so I suppose that question must be considered to be disposed of. But the Committee also decided that the new front should align absolutely with the front of the Home Office. Now, personally, I hope that that will not be adhered to, and I have some reason to think that my right hon. Friend may find that it is desirable to recess the frontage behind the line of the Home Office. I do not know what the Chancellor of the Exchequer may have to say to that proposal, for I am aware, of course, that it entails additional expenditure. But I have three reasons for hoping this, and I may say further that the plan of recessing was put forward by the Association of British Architects as being superior, architecturally, to that of alignment. In the first place, I hold that the more you can open up Parliament Street as you move to the south, the better will be the approach, and the finer the view of the Abbey. In the second place, the mere widening of the street to the width of the present street in Whitehall will cause it to abut very awkwardly on Parliament Square Gardens; while, certainly, the new street will contrast very awkwardly with the very much narrower street which will be its continuation. And, thirdly, Sir, there is the question of the traffic. It is proposed to abolish King Street. Hon. Members generally are, perhaps, hardly aware of the amount of traffic which passes through that thoroughfare. The whole of the traffic will, of course, in future have to go through the widened part of Parliament Street, and while the police say that they are quite capable of managing the traffic even in a merely widened street, they say the wider the street can be made the better it would be, and it would be all to the good if, in the street so widened, the traffic could be divided into a double current, so as to keep the Westminster Bridge traffic distinct from, and independent of, the Victoria Street traffic as it comes to and from Charing Cross. I hope that will be borne in mind, and the great importance of adding an extra width of 15 or 20 feet by the recess on the west side of Parliament Street. If that is done, I believe it will be a great advantage. Now, I have one or two questions to put to my right hon. Friend. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not come to any decision as to the character of the frontage until the ground is cleared, and the whole of the block of buildings at present between King Street and Parliament Street has been cleared away. Hon. Members will then be able to see for themselves what the position is, and what will be best suited for the west side of the street. I should like to ask my right hon. Friend what decision has been come to in regard to the police station in King Street, and whether it has been decided to locate that police station in the building now occupied by the Civil Service Commission, and whether the Civil Service Commission will be transferred, as was originally proposed, to Millbank? There are two or three questions I should like to ask my right hon. Friend about South Kensington Museum. I understand that the South Kensington buildings will be now concentrated on the east side of Exhibition Road, and that the whole of the Science and Art Departments will be housed on the east side of Exhibition Road. In that case, a good deal of space will be set free, and I should like to know how much ground will be in the hands of the First Commissioner, and whether there is any scheme for using that ground. And I should also like to know what arrangements are to be made about the galleries, which were leased in 1891 for a term of 50 years. At the present time I think the Government pay from £3,000 to £4,000 a year for the use of the east and west and north galleries. I take it that those galleries will not be used when the new buildings are erected, and I should like to know what arrangement is proposed to be made in regard to those galleries. I should also like to ask whether the Geological Museum in Jermyn Street will be removed to the new buildings at South Kensington. I have no other questions to ask, Sir, but I am glad that my right hon. Friend is enjoying, financially, a much better time than I had when I was at the Office of Works. He has fallen on fat times. My lot was a very different one, though I am very far from casting any imputation in that matter on my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, of course, could only act according to the means at his disposal. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on having had a much better time, and I think he has made very good use of his opportunity.
Mr. Speaker, I feel that in this country I am an exile, and if for no other reason than that I should feel bound to vote against the granting of this money for the extension of the libraries at the House of Lords and at the House of Commons. It is my wish, and the wish of the hon. Members who sit with me on these Benches, to get out of this House as soon as we can, and get into a House of Commons of our own in Ireland, and I hope my hon. Friends from Ireland will resist by every means in their power the spending of this large sum of money on increasing the libraries at the House of Lords and the House of Commons. With regard to the widening of Parliament Street, I submit that that is a matter entirely for the London County Council. I have no objection to English money being spent in widening Parliament Street, but I strongly object to one farthing of Irish money being expended for this purpose. Under these circumstances, I shall give every opposition to this expenditure. I have no doubt a great many English Members are glad to get rid of King Street, and would like to have it forgotten in the history of this country. So far as South Kensington is concerned, I see that £800,000 is required for the Science and Art buildings. That compares very unfavourably with the manner in which the Dublin Museum was treated in 1896. Whenever there is an opportunity, and it makes no difference which Government is in office, of taking a slice off Ireland in any shape, the opportunity is never lost; and while there is the sum of £800,000 to be voted now for South Kensington, the sum of £900 was taken from the Dublin Science and Art Museum in 1896. The expenditure of so large a sum on South Kensington will, I think, be opposed by every Irish Member. I hope, Mr. Speaker. I shall not be out of order if I read a Report from Mr. Walter Armstrong, director of the National Gallery of Ireland, as follows—
Hon. Members from Ireland have year after year urged the Government to give some small grant for the purpose of enlarging the Museum premises in Dublin, but our entreaties and requests have fallen upon deaf ears. I saw it stated the other day in some of the Irish papers that the right hon. Gentleman who gives the replies to questions on this subject in this House knows very little about the subject. I do not think any right hon. Gentleman could know all the details with regard to the various Departments in Ireland that he would have to answer for, but the replies that have been given have been "cooked" in such a manner as—"By your instructions I recite the following Resolution passed unanimously by the Board at a meeting held on August 6, 1896—namely, 'In adopting the Directors' report for the year 1895 the Governors and Guardians are compelled to again press upon Her Majesty's Government the imperative necessity for an extension of the Gallery Buildings—an increase which has been urged yearly upon the Treasury since 1890, and becomes daily more indispensable through the accumulation of works of art which cannot be exhibited.'"
called the hon. Member to order, and said he was now indulging in generalities.
I think we are entitled, when Ireland is asked to contribute £200,000 for buildings with which the majority of Irish Members in this House have no sympathy, to strenuously oppose the Vote. If the right hon. Gentleman can tell me that the claims of Ireland, with regard to the Dublin Museum, will be entertained and immediately considered in conjunction with this Vote, it may be that this Bill will get an easier passage than will be the case if he does not give a favourable reply to my hon. Friends who have raised this Debate. I have now put my views before the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope he will be in a position to say that a large share of the money that is asked to be voted to-day will be applied to Dublin, especially as report after report has come from the Dublin Museum asking for money to enlarge the buildings, which are in a very congested state at the present time. The officers in Dublin are not so well paid as officers in London or Edinburgh occupying similar positions, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will also consider that matter.
Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to delay the House for more than a few minutes. While looking after the interests of England and London, I think we should also favourably consider the claims of Ireland. I heartily approve of the projects of the Government for the concentration of the public offices in Whitehall, which will, in my opinion, make the various Departments more easy of management. I am delighted to think there is a prospect of seeing the buildings at South Kensington erected within a reasonable period. At present the many treasures of the nation are very badly housed. When we visit other capitals of Europe, such as Vienna and Paris, we see buildings worthy of the nation, and I hope when these new buildings are put up we shall have reason to be proud of them, and that they will be adequate for the purposes for which they are intended.
I rise for the purpose of asking the First Commissioner of Works one question. He proposes in this Bill to erect a large building for the Savings Bank Department of the Post Office. Last year I asked the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, to consider whether it would not be an economy to decentralise the Post Office Savings Bank, and to do the Irish business in Ireland. Personally, I believe it would be an economy. I am not going into the question now, I only bring it up on the Second Reading because, unless the right hon. Gentleman will undertake to consider it before the Committee stage, the whole question may be prejudged. All I ask now is that, before the Committee stage of this Bill, the right hon. Gentleman will get the Post Office to report as to whether the decentralisation of the Savings Bank, as proposed, will not be an economy.
I am anxious, Mr. Speaker, to ask whether, in the new buildings to which the Education Department is to be transferred, room will be made for future extensions of the Department in the administration of certain phases of public education not now distinctly under its control. I cannot conceive but that eventually there will be transferred to the Education Department the control of the officers and staff of the Science and Art Department, as distinct from the Museums, and also the officers and staff of the Endowed Schools Section of the Charity Commission. The Royal Commission on Secular Education made that recommendation, and I hope I may be only pushing an open door in urging that accommodation such as I have mentioned will be provided. A great deal of the present chaotic condition of education is due to the disjointed, separated habitats of the various bodies concerned in its administration. There will be economy of time, expense, and labour by associating the various bodies together, and I hope the plans for the new buildings will keep that in view.
I should like to ask a question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Do I understand that this £2,550,000 is to be paid out of the surplus of the year, and will then be put to a separate account in the Treasury, and stand there on interest for the purpose of this Vote. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER nodded assent.]
Mr. Speaker, I only want to say one or two words. I think the opposition to this Bill comes with very bad grace from the Irish Members. The provision of proper accommodation for the War Office is for the benefit of the whole country, and not for the benefit of England alone. Many of the chief officials of the War Office, the Admiralty, and the other Departments have been Irishmen. Moreover, English Members have never grudged Votes for light railways or local government in Ireland, and I think it comes with very bad grace from hon. Members opposite to vote against this Bill. I hope the result of the scheme will be to give London some buildings of an ornamental kind, and that they will be sufficiently protected from fire.
Mr. Speaker, I have taken some interest during the last Session of Parliament in this question of procuring public sites for public offices, and I would like to address to the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of this Measure, a question as to the position in which this Bill puts us. I see from the records of the House during the last Session that we discussed and passed a Measure in which a sum of £500,000 was voted by this House for procuring public sites and erecting public buildings in Whitehall. Now, I see it is proposed to expend a still further sum of £475,000, making in all nearly a million of money on procuring public offices in Whitehall. I should like to have from the right hon. Gentleman an explanation as to the increase in the Vote, and why it was he did not ask for the larger sum when dealing with this matter last Session? Sir, I think Members from Ireland have a right to speak upon any question that is before the House, and I think it is very bad taste indeed for hon. Members opposite to deny us that right. The hon. Member who spoke just before me put another construction upon the matter. He appears to be aggrieved at our questioning the outlay of such a large sum of money as this, but, we are interested in the Vote to the extent of £1,000,000, and when we are getting no direct benefit from its expenditure I do think we ought to be allowed to criticise it. I think this Vote ought to be opposed tooth and nail, because it is one step further in the direction of centralising the Government. You are bringing everything to London, and making all the public offices have their heads here, so that the smallest thing cannot be done in Ireland without instructions from London. What does that mean? Simply that it is back office officialism—the officialism which finds its existence in small back offices of Government Departments in London—which rules Ireland at the present day. Some of my friends here have instanced the Post Office Savings Bank. I think that is a matter of extreme importance to Ireland. In some parts of the country, where there is not a limited mail, daily service applications for the withdrawal of small sums sometimes take four or five days to pass through before the depositor can withdraw the small sum which he requires from the Savings Bank Department. It seems to me ridiculous for the Government to maintain a large and expensive staff in Dublin, and give them no power whatever to deal with twopenny-halfpenny matters of this description. Now one of the things which the Irish people complain of very seriously indeed is the manner in which the Science and Art buildings in Dublin have been neglected. I do not myself live in Dublin, and I make no special demand for expending money in my own district, but when you are spending such a large sum in beautifying and decorating this city, to the improvement of which I do not personally object, when you are spending so large a sum of money in building here in London, I think you should give some attention to the sister island. Irishmen have done as much for Science and Art as others have done in London, and, as the House may know, there is a Commission of Inquiry now sitting to inquire into this matter, and through that Committe it was revealed that very great complaints existed as to the manner in which the interests of Science and Art in the city of Dublin are neglected. I think we are justified in adopting the attitude which we do; in dealing with this Bill we derive no direct benefit from the vast sum of money which is going to be expended. The poor people of the north-west of Ireland are dying of starvation, and this great Imperial assembly would not vote them a penny of relief and referred them to their own pockets upon the principle, I suppose, of feeding a dog on the end of his own tail, and now you are going to beautify and decorate your own city, and spend upon it two millions and a quarter sterling.
I am grateful to the House for the way in which they have received this Bill. I have always endeavoured, in answering questions upon the scheme, to give all the information on behalf of the Government I could. There are a few questions which have been addressed to me to-night which I will deal with to the best of my ability. My right hon. Friend has called especial attention to the widening of Parliament Street; with regard to that there were three proposals brought before the Sites Committee. There was the proposal put forward by the Government to widen Parliament Street, and make it the same width as Whitehall. Then there was the proposal put forward by my right hon. Friend opposite which was to leave the whole space open; and then there was the alternative proposal put forward by the Institute of British Architects, which was to diverge slightly from the parallel line, and so to give an increased effect to the existing Home Office. The Committee eventually came to the conclusion that both for the sake of artistic effect, and also to secure proper buildings, they should maintain the parallel line. If we had adopted the proposal put forward by my right hon. Friend, by which Parliament Street was to be finished off with an obtuse angle, the architectural effect would be bad, and we should have to pay for land left vacant £108,500 over and above what has been thought necessary by Sir John Taylor, on behalf of the Government, and by the majority of expert gentlemen who gave evidence with reference to the proposals put forward. Then the scheme put forward by the Institute of British Architects would cost £20,000 more than the proposal put forward by the Government, because in that case they would not be able to build on so large a site. My attitude in this matter will be guided by the advice of the architect who carries out the building. I quite agree that we cannot follow the exact line of the Home Office, and that must be decided when we come to consider the architectural design, when I shall be prepared, if it be considered necessary, to recommend a sum slightly in excess of the Estimate, if by so doing we should secure a better architectural effect. With regard to the question of the architect, my right hon. Friend urged the Government to press Sir John Taylor to accept the appointment, but while there is no man in this country who has a higher opinion of his ability than myself, I am afraid I shall not be able to persuade him to undertake, at his time of life, and after his long service, so onerous a duty. I have, fortunately, been able to secure his services for another three years, in order that we may benefit by his assistance as assessor in carrying out the plans of these buildings. It is our proposal that Sir John Taylor should have a very large discretion in the arrangement of the buildings. I am desirous here to correct an expression I used the other evening when I said that it was the intention of the Government to arrange the plans of the interior of the building. I regret that there should have been any misapprehension, but what I meant was that the Government thought that, as Sir John Taylor knows more about what is required in the interior of public offices than anyone else, he should have control, and should work with the architect who is preparing the elevations. We have been also fortunate in securing another assessor in the person of Mr. Aitchison, R.A., who is the President of the Institute of British Architects, Professor of Architecture at the Royal Academy, and an acknowledged authority on classic architecture. My right hon. Friend asked me a question with respect to the police station in King Street. With regard to that, it has been arranged that it shall be removed to the premises of the Civil Service Commission in Cannon Row, and the Civil Service Commission will be removed to offices already taken for them in Victoria Street. The right hon. Gentleman also asked me with regard to a scheme for the re-arrangement of the buildings at South Kensington. We have succeeded in finding a scheme by which the whole of the new buildings required for Science and Art will be erected on the east side of Exhibition Road. Last year a Committee on the Museums of the Science and Art Department, presided over by the hon. Baronet behind me, came to the conclusion that official residences were a source of danger from fire to the collections of Art. When we have taken down these buildings and other buildings which the Committee condemned, it will be found that we have a much larger space at our disposal than we originally anticipated, and we have therefore decided to group the whole of the new buildings on the east side of the road, and we think that in those buildings accommodation for both Science and Art will be found for many years to come. The buildings on the west side of the road will be retained. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen asked whether we could find room for a comprehensive library for public departments. Well, Sir, I am afraid the sites at our disposal will not be sufficient to provide for housing so large a collection. Although I am hardly prepared to say that I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, who suggested there should be a library containing a copy of every Blue Book of this and other countries, I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope that we can find room for such a large collection of documents as he desires. The hon. Member for Dublin, and several other hon. Members for Ireland, have called attention to the question of decentralising the Savings Bank. I think that is more a question of administration than of building, and although I do not think it comes within the scope of this Bill, as there seem to be some grounds for grievance in the direction pointed out by hon. Members, I will undertake to bring the matter to the notice of the Postmaster General. The hon. Member for Nottingham asked me whether we had sufficient space for the housing of the staff of the Education Department. In answer to that I say yes. We have already allowed for housing the administrative branch of the Science and Art Department as recommended by the Secondary Education Commission. There will be further room there than is actually required at the moment, which will be utilised for the further expansion of the office as required. It does not rest with me, but with the Education authorities, to say how they will make use of the room at their disposal. Then I was asked as to the housing of the extra staff at the Admiralty. There has been no decision yet arrived at as to how they shall be housed, but I will take care, when that question is finally decided, that any suggestions shall be considered. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last asked a question as to why we required more money for the War Office, and pointed out that we asked for £500,000 last year in respect of the works there. What we did last year was to obtain from the House of Commons the money for the purchase of the site. This year we are asking for the money to erect the buildings. I think I have now answered all the questions put to me; and I would ask that the Bill be now read a second time.
Last year, when this question was before the House, I felt it was my duty to raise a protest. I have listened with a good deal of patience and expectation; and I have not been able to discover what Ireland is to receive for the amount which she is going to contribute to this vast sum of money. We are not interested in the architectural beauty of the buildings which are going to be erected here, or what style of architecture will be employed; but we are to contribute about a quarter of a million of money towards them. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the generosity with which this House treated Ireland; but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the good of giving three-quarters of a million with one hand if with the other—
Order, order! The hon. Member must confine himself to the subject-matter of the Bill.
I was not going, Sir, to discuss the Local Government Bill. I merely wished to point out that whilst on the one hand we are receiving three-quarters of a million of money, upon the other hand £250,000 is being taken away. I should like to know why we should be compelled to contribute towards this outlay when we have people starving in Ireland. When we appeal in this House on behalf of our people, the appeal will no doubt be listened to, but it will not be answered. I certainly say it is our bounden duty on this side of the House to protest against this unjust contribution towards these buildings; and it is also our duty to protest against every single Vote that comes before the House of Commons in which Ireland receives no direct benefit.
I cannot associate myself on this occasion with any attempt to drag in the national question of Ireland.
It is not a national question: it is a question of money.
There are two reasons why this subject should not be dragged into the Debate. In the first place, Dublin has a very handsome building erected in connection with the Science and Art Department—a much more handsome building than there is in London. In the second place, these buildings are very much wanted in London, and I do not think my hon. Friends have adopted a very practical course; the question they have raised could be better dealt with on another occasion. I want to put a question or two to the right hon. Gentleman on this most important matter. He spoke of improving the Science and Art building at Kensington on the east side of Exhibition Road. I think it is a most stupid arrangement that some of those buildings, used as a scientific school, should be associated so closely with such a most valuable art collection. I should like the assurance that while due accommodation will be made for a Science School it will be provided in a separate building, so that the Art Collection should not be in any way endangered by the constant use of part of the building as a school. The right hon. Gentleman did not make any allusion to this subject, and I think it is a great pity. While I think that there should be ready facilities of entrance into the art collection, at the same time I believe that a building devoted to scientific subjects should be entirely separate. If some assurance is possible on that point I shall be glad. I should like also to call attention to the finance of this Bill. I heard with some alarm the explanation the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to my hon. Friend. It is an entirely new step in our finance—if it is not, I should like to hear of a precedent for it—that simply because he has a large surplus it is not to be used for the reduction of the National Debt, but is to be handed over to the First Commissioner of Works for him to spend as he pleases. I do not think that any Minister was ever treated in that royal way by this House before. But, unfortunately, a precedent of this kind is likely to be followed in future years; we shall have Chancellors of the Exchequer making arrangements, when they have large surpluses, to hand them
AYES.
| ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Burns, John | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden | Burt, Thomas | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph |
| Arnold, Alfred | Butcher, John George | Donkin, Richard Sim |
| Ascroft, Robert | Caldwell, James | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cawley, Frederick | Doxford, William Theodore |
| Baden-Powell, Sir G. Smyth | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Drucker, A. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. |
| Baird, Jno. Geo. Alexander | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Dunn, Sir William |
| Baker, Sir John | Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart |
| Balcarres, Lord | Charrington, Spencer | Evershed, Sydney |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch.) | Clough, Walter Owen | Fenwick, Charles |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Grld W. (Leeds) | Cochrane, Hn. T. H. A. E. | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.) |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Coghill, Douglas, Harry | Finch, George H. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l) | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Begg, Ferdinand Faithful | Colston, C. E. H. Athole | Flannery, Fortescue |
| Bethell, Commander | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Folkestone, Viscount |
| Billson, Alfred | Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Forster, Henry William |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Forwood, Rt. Hn. Sir A. B. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc S. W.) | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) | Fry, Lewis |
| Brookfield, A. Montagu | Dalkeith, Earl of | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Garfit, William |
| Bucknill, Thos. Townsend | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Dickson-Poynder, Sir Jno. P. | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
over to a particular Minister, giving him carte blanche to do as he pleases with them. I make an appeal to the right hon Gentleman, who has this great responsibility thrust upon him in the way of spending money, to give us as much information as he possibly can before anything definite is decided upon. I am not aware that he has had to face any great difficulty on account of the criticisms he has received. Some of the existing buildings have been found fault with, as in the case of the new Scotland Yard, which, I think is not only a beautiful building, but certainly more suitable for its purpose than some other Government buildings in the neighbourhood. If he would adopt some means of giving the House of Commons and the public generally every opportunity of making themselves familiar with the scheme of the new buildings, then less fault would be found with them. I hope my friends from Ireland will take a reasonable view of the remarks I have made, and that they will allow the necessary work to be put through.
Question put—
"That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 202; Noes 19.
| Godson, Augustus Frederick | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Goldsworthy, Major-General | Leng, Sir John | Rutherford, John |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Llewellyn, Evan H. (Som'rst) | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles |
| Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Swnsea) | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Gretton, John | Logan, John William | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Greville, Captain | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. | Lough, Thomas | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. | Lowe, Francis William | Spencer, Ernest |
| Hanson, Sir Reginald | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Spicer, Albert |
| Hazell, Walter | Lucas-Shadwell, William | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Helder, Augustus | Macdona, John Cumming | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth. (Down) | Maddison, Fred. | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampst'd) | Maden, John Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Holden, Sir Angus | Marks, Harry H. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) |
| Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Thorburn, Walter |
| Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- | Monckton, Edward Philip | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) | Monk, Charles James | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | More, Robert Jasper | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Morrell, George Herbert | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) |
| Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) | Muntz, Philip A. | Wharton, Rt. Hn. Jno. Lloyd |
| Joicey, Sir James | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grhm (Bute) | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.) |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Myers, William Henry | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) |
| Kemp, George | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. | Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Kenrick, William | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Wills, Sir William Henry |
| Kenyon, James | Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath) |
| Kitson, Sir James | Pryce-Jones, Edward | Wylie, Alexander |
| Knowles, Lees | Purvis, Robert | Wyndham, George |
| Lafone, Alfred | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Richards, Henry Charles | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Lawrence, Sir Ed. (Cornwall) | Richardson, J. (Durham) | |
| Lawson, John Grant | Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lanc.) | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir M. W. | Sir William Walrond and |
| Robinson, Brooke | Mr. Anstruther. |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H. | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Hogan, James Francis | Tanner, Charles Kearns |
| Daly, James | Holburn, J. G. | |
| Davitt, Michael | Macaleese, Daniel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Dermott, Patrick | Mr. Dillon and Mr. T. P. |
| Farrell, Jas. P. (Cavan, W.) | MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Q's. C.) | O'Connor. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Ghee, Richard | |
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
Prisons Bill
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [24th March], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
The hon. Member and his friends appeared to be somewhat astonished because I criticised the temper of his speech, and the language he used, in a somewhat strong fashion. Sir, I have had time since to examine that speech in cold blood, and I must say I think, after reflection and the conclusion to which I have been brought after that examination, the language I used was not strong enough. What was the tone adopted by the hon. Member? The tone he took up was this: that what society demanded against those whom he characterised as having defied society was that they should not be allowed to wear the martyr's crown without suffering the martyr's pains. At that particular moment he was speaking of members of the Salvation Army, and of people who refused to vaccinate their children; and the language used was that such individuals who had defied society should not be allowed to wear the martyr's crown without suffering the martyr's pains. I characterise that language as brutal and unfeeling; and when an hon. Member talks about the necessity of inflicting such vindictive punishment he, by implication, justifies those horrible doctrines which prevailed in this connection in the Middle Ages, when, as we all remember, it was the law that men were to be put into large pots and boiled in water gradually made hot if they attempted to poison themselves. I agree that the punishment should fit the crime, but I disapprove altogether of vindictive punishment. As we know, in the days of Queen Elizabeth, men actually were put into pots of cold water placed upon the fire and slowly boiled; and although I do not attribute to the hon. Member for the Hallam Division any desire to inflict punishment of this kind, I say that the logic of his system would bring us back to that state of things. If you are once to accede to the principle of vindictive punishment in proportion to the crime there has been committed you will approach irresistibly, step by step, that terrible system of crucifying men, screwing them on the rack, and other tortures of the Middle Ages. But what has been one of the greatest advances, in my judgment, in modern civilisation has been due to the great humanitarian reformers of the early part of this century, who have succeeded in robbing the punishment inflicted of its vindictiveness and its savagery. I say it has been due to these great reformers that, in spite of warnings of this character, they have brought about the adoption of the principle that you do not deter from the crime by the savagery of your punishment; and, accordingly, as the criminal law of this country has been mitigated in vindictiveness and savagery, so has crime gradually decreased. Sir, in recent days all the researches of science and the writings of those who have devoted their lives to the study of criminalogy have gone to show, to a large extent, that amongst those of the criminal class their moral guilt is not nearly so great as the average public opinion would judge it to be, because it is only on that final day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed to an All-knowing Judgment that it can really be decided how great is the moral guilt of any criminal. Those who administer the laws of this country have not got the knowledge, and are not entitled to say how much moral guilt there is involved in any criminal act; and those of us who have taken any sympathetic interest in this question know perfectly well that there are to-day hundreds of men—and I daresay the Home Secretary himself will admit this—suffering penal servitude in the prisons of this country who are less morally guilty than many a man who carries his head high in the City of London, and who have really committed less crime; and if all the temptations to which the criminal has been subjected were weighed in the balance, the criminal would stand higher morally than many a man who is walking about this great city as a thoroughly respectable citizen. All these things have to be taken into consideration; and while I admit that society must have power to restrain criminals and prevent them from committing acts injurious to society, I hold the principle upon which all criminal law ought to be based is that it ought not to seek to inflict vindictive punishment, but seek, as far as is consistent with the safety of society, to improve the moral conditions of the persons that society is obliged to restrain. Well, Sir, when you apply that principle which the Member for the Hallam Division has laid down, when you look at it from this point of view, and apply it, I ask you, how does it stand and how is it to be judged? I say it must be condemned; and I must confess that this Bill appears to be condemned by one of the sentences contained in the Memorandum, where it is said that it is not intended to have any revolutionary changes in the present prison system of this country. I think there ought to be a revolutionary change in the prison system. The whole present system of the country is, to a large extent, based on a false and monstrous idea. What is it we claim? We claim that the prisoners of this country with, perhaps, a few exceptions, ought to be treated primarily as human beings, and I hold that this ought to be the principle, not only with the criminal prisoners of this country, but with the ordinary prisoners. The first guiding principle of a prison system is that it should not be so arranged as to be calculated to break down and brutalise the minds of prisoners. A prisoner should be given an opportunity of redeeming himself; but, instead of that, your present system is calculated to brutalise, degrade, and destroy the mind of the prisoner. In the case of a man of education, or habits of intellectual occupation, the system is calculated to drive him mad, and we know it has done so. But we all know that there are certain individuals whose nature is so vile and brutal, from their youth upwards, that it is difficult to deal with them on any principle of humanity, such as ought to be applied to the great mass of prisoners; and I admit there ought to be a lower classification in which could be placed all individuals sent to prison for crimes committed with brutal violence. At present, however, an unfortunate wretch sent to prison for some crime against property is placed under the same conditions as if he had committed a brutal outrage on some defenceless woman or child. On that alone the system ought to be condemned. The other day I received a letter from an ex-prisoner, who said he had read the Debate in the House on the Prisons Bill. He had been, he said, a porter in one of the great furnishing establishments in the City, and, judging from his letter, he was a man of superior intelligence. He admitted that he had pleaded guilty to the offence for which he was punished. He was a poor man with a large family, and had been trusted by his employer. But he had drawn a sum of money he was not entitled to, and, pleading guilty, was sentenced to four or five years penal servitude—I am not sure which. Probably, the sentence was not too severe; but if the man had killed his wife he would only have got six months' hard labour. Under great temptations he took this money, and was sent to a common convict prison. First of all he was sent to a probationary prison for nine months. He underwent solitary confinement, without having a single word from a human being during that time, and he nearly lost his reason. He was set the task of picking oakum, and was punished because he was unable to perform the task. At the end of his imprisonment, when he came to get his dismissal, he was sent back and obliged to serve an additional term, because he had several bad marks against him for failing to finish his tasks. He was treated on the same level as if he had committed some brutal crime, and although when he did leave prison, he obtained employment, perhaps, in that, he was the exception to the rule. I say it is an outrage on humanity to treat a man guilty of such a crime in this way—a man who is perfectly capable of being redeemed—to put him on the same level as a savage and a brute who would commit a brutal assault on a woman. There are certain criminals who, from circumstances or habit or surroundings, are so violent and brutal that it is almost impossible to raise them in the scale of humanity, and it may be necessary to keep special prisons for them where the discipline would be more severe. But, as regards most prisoners of this country, and particularly of those accused of crimes against property, they ought to be treated as human beings, and every effort made, consistent with reasonable discipline and their confinement and loss of liberty, to occupy their minds and subject them to advantages which may have the effect, not of sinking them lower in the scale of humanity, but of giving them a lift upwards and opening up a career for them. This is attempted in some countries. I have been in the great prison of Elmira, in the State of New York, where the treatment of convicts is as different from the treatment in the convict prisons of this country as one thing can be from another. I went over the prison books of Elmira with the Governor, and he showed me that the vast majority of the men who pass through the prison—men accused of grievous crimes which in this country would entail a life sentence—are placed out by him in distant parts of the States. He keeps up a correspondence with them, and helps them to get employment in districts where they may have a chance of life again, and he showed me that a large percentage—[Mr. JOHN BURNS: Ninety per cent.]—have re-instated themselves in life, and have become respectable and decent citizens. Is it not a disgrace to this country that we cannot do this, and it can be done in a country like America, where a population has to be dealt with that is lower, because a large section of it is drawn from the lower classes of almost every country in Europe. Before passing to the subject which specially caused me to rise, I wish to say a few words to the House on the subject of juvenile crime. I have been in many of the Irish prisons, and I have personal experience of the results of sending young children to prison. Fifteen years ago I spent about a year in the prison of Kilmainham. One day, when exercising in the yard, I heard a little child cry. Judging from the voice it was not more than ten years of age, and this poor child was crying incessantly, "Mother, mother, mother, where are you?" This went on for hours, and the child worked itself into a perfectly hysterical condition. Then I heard a door open, and a warder evidently entered, and he hammered and pounded that child, and smothered his cries, and beat him severely. I sent to the governor and complained. The governor said the affair should be investigated. The following day he told me it had been investigated, and there was no foundation for it. I said, "It is of no use you saying that, for I was listening and heard the whole thing. I did not actually see it, but I heard everything that went on." The governor replied, "I shall allow you to investigate it yourself." The following day he brought this poor wretched child to me, but he also brought the warder, and the child looked at the warder, and was afraid to tell me what had occurred. That was all the satisfaction I got, yet there can be no doubt as to what occurred. But, even if the child had not been treated in the way I have described, I affirm that, to put a child of 15 or 16 years of age, or even 18 years of age, into a common prison, is an outrage, which under no circumstances ought to be tolerated. If it is necessary to confine children or young lads or young girls in gaol, there ought to be a special institution for the purpose. Many an unfortunate wretch has been launched upon a career of crime by this horrible system of sending children into gaol. I trust if the Home Secretary has the power to make regulations in the future, one of the first he will make will be to prevent the imprisonment of children of certain ages in common gaols where adults are confined. One of the points I chiefly desire to speak upon is the treatment of political offenders and the contrast between the practice of other countries and the practice of this country. In this country, and in this country alone, an attempt is kept up to degrade, insult, and trample upon political offenders. I do not believe there is another civilised country in Europe, or in the world, where the Government attempts to treat its political opponents as the Government of this country habitually does. What does the Government of this country do? In the old days, before the Act of 1848, you sometimes hanged your political opponents, but you never treated them as pickpockets or thieves. Nowadays, the great modern, enlightened system of England is that the political opponents of the Government in Ireland are to be treated on the same level as pickpockets, and no distinction made between them and the men who trample upon their wives. When I was in Dundalk Gaol there was a prisoner there, who committed a brutal assault on a woman in the streets of Dublin, and he got half the sentence I got. I remember in the old days, when more than 20 Irish Members were lying in prison, the question of our treatment, especially the wearing of prison clothes, was brought before the House, and hon. Members laughed. We had our revenge when Dr. Jameson was convicted of a crime against the law tenfold greater than ours, and a howl was raised at the idea of Dr. Jameson and his companions being compelled to wear prison clothes. And what occurred? The same punishment which we had undergone more than once in Ireland, and which had been treated with sneers by our colleagues in this House, was imposed on Dr. Jameson and others. A Tory Member, and I think he was perfectly right in doing so, got up a petition, which was signed by Members of this House, praying that the law should not be enforced in all its severity against Dr. Jameson and the officers lying with him in gaol. But who were the first Members to sign that petition? The Irish Members who had been subjected to all those indignities. The hon. Member came to me with the petition, and I signed it at once, and he asked my hon. Friend the Member for South Mayo, who for 18 years was in your convict prisons, where he was treated as a criminal, to sign that petition. I want to know what crime my hon. Friend the Member for South Mayo and myself committed compared with that of Dr. Jameson. We had struggled according to our own conscience for our own country; but Dr. Jameson had invaded a foreign country, and broken the law of his own country at the same time, and he had done that under the guidance of a Stock Exchange Ring. And yet the House of Commons was convulsed with horror at the idea of Dr. Jameson being subjected to wearing that clothing marked with the broad arrow which I have worn, and which the hon. Member for South Mayo has worn. They asked us to sign the petition in which they objected to Dr. Jameson and his colleagues wearing the prison clothes. I signed it at once, and I asked my hon. Friends to sign it, because I am opposed—I do not care whether he is an enemy or a friend—to treating any of my political opponents as if he was a common criminal. I recognise the right of any just Government, and of every Government, so far as it has the power to do it, to protect itself, but no Government has a right—and it is a disgrace and a reproach to this Government to do it—to say to its political opponents, "Because you break our laws from political motives we shall degrade you, trample upon you and insult you, and treat you as common criminals." In this Bill, so far as I have looked into it, and in the rules which the Home Secretary has drafted, I see no sign of repentance in this great and important matter; and we shall certainly, on every occasion when this question is raised, and on every opportunity that offers, demand of Her Majesty's Government that they will repeal the odious provision of the Treason Felony Act of 1848, and abandon the scandalous system under which political prisoners in this country are treated as if they were nothing better than the lowest criminals.
The Amendment before the House is, that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. Well, I am prepared to vote with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Durham if he goes to a division, but I am free to acknowledge, and I willingly do so, that there is a spirit of progress, a small and timid one, in the Bill which I readily recognise. Under Clause 2 the Home Secretary is empowered to make rules for prisons, and I take it that under that clause we shall be permitted in this House, as occasion requires, to review, every year if necessary, these rules and the manner in which they operate. Now, Sir, having said so much in favour of that clause, I have to say that in other respects this Measure is very disappointing; in fact, it only touches the fringe of a great social question. I admit that the rules are far more important from the point of view of the management of prisons, and the reform of criminal character, than the Bill itself. And I feel sure that if we could translate into these rules the disposition and the feeling and the wishes of the Home Secretary, we could rest satisfied that the prisons of this country would be managed in a humane spirit. But, Sir, the Home Secretary is not a permanent occupant of the Home Office, and although the Home Office is at the present time, I am sure, animated by good intentions, we know that there is a larger and more important area situated elsewhere which is said to be paved with good intentions, and none of us want to go there. Sir, in one respect the Measure we are discussing takes a step backward. I find that Section 40 of the Act of 1877 is virtually repealed by the express repeal in the schedule of this Bill of Section 67 of the Act of 1865. Now, Section 40 of the Act of 1877 says that the Prison Commissioners shall see that any prisoners under sentence, on conviction for sedition or seditious libel, shall be treated as misdemeanants of the first division within the meaning of Section 67 of the Prisons Act of 1865, notwithstanding any statutory provision or rule to the contrary. This latter section being now expressly expunged from the law, Section 40 of the Act of 1877 stands repealed. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, who has demanded the repeal of this section, when has public opinion in Great Britain or Ireland clamoured for this retrograde change; or is it the act or the wish of the Home Secretary himself?
That was not intended at all. I was going to say later, and I may now be allowed to say, that it was my intention to reconsider that proposal, and that it was not in the least intended to repeal that section.
I am very glad to have elicited that explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. It is really what I should have expected; but it seems to me that someone behind the Home Secretary had some sinister motive in trying to bring the law of libel in the matter of Press offences in this country down to the level of what it is in India at the present time. My hon. Friend beside me has devoted a portion of his speech to-night, as he addressed his observations to the House on Thursday last, to the punishment of political offenders in this country, and I find in the Bill no provision whatever for altering this system of penal punishment of political offences in the future. Well, I regret that very much, because I venture, Sir, to express the opinion that there are hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, as well as on this, who would wish that in this respect this country should not be behind either France, or Germany, or America, or even Russia, in its manner of treating political offenders. But, Sir, the fact is that, as compared with the treatment meted out for political crimes in Russia, the treatment of political prisoners in this country is far behind the enlightened spirit of that autocratic Empire. I could, if I wished, delay the House by proving this contention by abundant testimony, but I will only refer to the opinions expressed in this connection by Mr. de Windt, who travelled extensively in Siberia, and who visited several of the prisons where Nihilists and other political offenders against the law of Russia were incarcerated. And the picture which this traveller gives to us of the humanity of the Russian Government towards those opponents of its power is one, I think, which ought to induce hon. Members opposite to support me when this Bill is in Committee, and when I intend to move a clause that will give power to the judges, when sentencing a man proved to be guilty of offences under the Treason Felony Act, to mete out to the convicted prisoner more enlightened treatment. Sir, what good is effected for the Government or for society in this country by treating political prisoners as if they ware guilty of the worst of crimes? The object of prison punishment ought to be to reform prisoners, and to make them more amenable to law and order. But surely no one will contend in this House, either on that side or on this, that a political offender is likely to be made more loyal to your rule, or more contented under your authority, by reducing him to the level of the lowest of your criminals who are confined in your convict prisons? Sir, I do not care to speak at any length on this phase of the subject which we are discussing. I do not care to impart too much personal feeling into this Debate, but I trust that when I come to move my Amendment, to which I have referred already, when the Bill reaches the Committee stage, that hon. Members, who appealed to us successfully to help them to obtain for Dr. Jameson and his friends a considerate and kindly treatment, will help us to obtain in the future for Irish political prisoners similar treatment. Now, Sir, I pass from that phase of this question to the general one. We have on the Table of the House voluminous rules, and these are, from my point of view, far more important in the matter of the future treatment of criminals than the Bill which we are now considering. I find there are no regulations in these documents to define the duties of three important classes of prison functionaries. We have rules for the guidance of governors of prisons, of chaplains, of warders, and of doctors; but not a word is said in the rules with reference to the regulations which should control the duties of the Board of Visitors of Convict Prisons, of the inspectors of prisons, or of the Prison Commissioners. Now, that omission is, in my opinion, a curious one, which needs some explanation. The whole of the present prison system depends for its efficiency on the capacities of its heads; and yet we know that nothing is said either in the Bill or in the rules as to what those duties are and how the abilities and capabilities of the Commissioners are to be exercised in this most responsible public service. That, I think, is a most serious omission, and I trust we may get some light upon this matter when the right hon. Gentleman comes to reply. Another question I want to ask is—what are the Board of Visitors to Convict Prisons to do? Are they to try all the prisoners in those prisons for breaches of discipline? How many such visitors are to constitute a Board? What are to be their qualifications? Are they to be paid? or, like the Visitors of Local Prisons, are their functions to be purely honorary? Some information on these points is called for, and will, I trust, be forthcoming before we get into Committee. Now, with reference to the Visiting Committees of Local Prisons. They will be composed, I presume, in the future, as they have, been in the past, of wealthy country squires, local magistrates, or people in a well-to-do condition of life. Well, I maintain, Sir, that if the Visiting Committees are to be made up of persons of that character alone, inspection by such people will be more of a farce than anything else. I am not saying anything against the individual gentlemen who may be called upon to perform those duties, but they are not likely to devote two or three days in the week, or a week in a month, or a month in a year to the performance of those duties. May I suggest, therefore, that it would help to make these Committees a reality and not a sham if they were not composed entirely of that class of people, but if members of local bodies and county councils as well as local justices formed a part of them. I am glad to find that my suggestion is approved of on the other side of the House. Well, another point, Mr. Speaker, is—who is to appoint the prison inspectors, the Prison Commissioners or the Home Secretary directly? They and the Board of Visitors to Convict Prisons should be appointed, in my opinion, directly by the Home Office, and should report direct to the Home Secretary, and not to the Prison Commissioners. It is a farce to have inspectors who are appointed by the Prison Commissioners reporting upon prisons for the administration of which the Commissioners are themselves responsible. In fact, in this way the Prison Commissioners are virtually their own prison inspectors, because these inspectors, who are appointed by them, would be practically liable to be dismissed by them. Another evil stereotyped by the Bill and the rules is that of leaving prisoners who have committed disciplinary offences to be tried by the directors and governors. I assume that under the Bill and the rules the Visiting Committee to the local prisons and the Visiting Board of convict establishments will be entitled to adjudicate upon some kind of prison offences; but my contention is that it is wrong in every way to unite the judicial and the executive functions in any class of offences. No law can be justly or fairly administered where these duties are so united; it is contrary to every precept of enlightened justice, and I was glad to find in a recent tour through the Australasian Colonies that this system has been entirely done away with in those countries. No prison official in any of the seven Australasian Colonies can sit in judgment upon a prisoner under his charge. This duty devolves upon a magistrate or Justice of the Peace from outside, and the result is, that the Governors under this system acquire a greater moral influence over prisoners, simply because they are not called upon to inflict punishment upon them. I trust that before we part with this Bill in Committee it may be possible to convince the Home Secretary that a change of this kind would be very welcome in the administration of the prisons of this country. Now, another point which I would press upon the right hon. Gentleman is that prisoners should know beforehand what amount of punishment is entailed by acts of insubordination. A code of punishment ought to be printed and hung up in every cell in a prison, as well as a code of rewards for compliance with discipline, for good conduct, and for the performance of industrial tasks. This, in itself, would be an inducement to industry, and would conduce to the better behaviour and good conduct of most of the prisoners. Now, having criticised so far omissions in the Bill and rules, I am glad to find, in one respect, that I can commend the rules for what they propose to do in future with reference to untried prisoners. There is a rational advance in the new rules upon the existing system, of treating prisoners on detention or awaiting trial as if they were tried and sentenced. This bad system is opposed to all ideas of justice. An accused person in this country is, theoretically, supposed to be innocent until he is proved to be guilty, and yet he has been treated up till now, while his innocence is presumable, just as if he had been convicted of the charge. The arrangements under the new rules are a great advance upon this practice, but they do not cure the entire evil. Under these new rules untried prisoners can appeal to the Visiting Committee, and they have certain privileges under the Bill extended to them. So far, so good. But there ought to be a supplemental provision to the effect, that, pending the hearing by the Visiting Committee of an application of any untried prisoner for better treatment, the Governor should not locate such prisoner in an ordinary cell, nor deny him such privileges as the rules allow the Visiting Committee to grant, when applied for. This provision would only carry out the intention of the new law, and at the same time it would result in saving, possibly, innocent prisoners from unmerited hardships. Now, Sir, a few more changes affecting the treatment of untried persons are steps forward in the right direction. I find that such persons will be privileged to have newspapers supplied to them while awaiting trial. I am very glad of that. I know a very intimate friend of mine who was tried some 20 years ago, and he applied again and again to be allowed the very small privilege of seeing a newspaper, but every application was refused. I am glad, indeed, to find that no such rule is to obtain in the future. Then, again, I find that in the provisions for visitors to untried prisoners, there is no regulation in the new rules enabling an untried prisoner to have an interview with his friends and visitors out of the hearing of the prison warder. I contend that that is not just. It is essential for the preparation of a prisoner's defence that he should be able to communicate freely with his witnesses and his friends, without any official hearing what transpires, and I trust that a change in the direction of my suggestion will be carried out when we come to discuss the Measure in detail in Committee. Sir, I come to deal with the question which, to me, is the most important one in connection with this Bill, and that is the present system of imprisonment known as penal servitude. I am sorry that neither in the Measure nor in the rules upon the Table do I find any material change in this system from what it was some 20 or 25 years ago. Lord Kimberley's Commission, which took evidence in 1877–78, declared that—
Now, Sir, the Departmental Committee which was appointed by the late Home Secretary, and which took evidence in 1894, practically repeats the same charge in almost identical terms. This system, Sir, is very little changed in its character or severity by the Bill before the House, or by the rules laid on the Table, or by the regulations specified in the memoranda of the Prison Commissioners. I believe that this contention was denied the other night. Very well; let us see what the facts are. A prominent feature of the system of 20 years ago was nine months' solitary and silence after conviction, by way of probation. This feature is not changed by the Bill or by the rules now before the House. Twenty years ago talking was not allowed by a prisoner from the beginning of his sentence to the end, under pain of report and punishment, if that natural privilege was exercised by a criminal, and the same unnatural rule still obtains, and there is nothing in the Bill or in the rules which leads us to hope that the Prison Commissioners mean to make any change in that barbarous and unnatural rule. Speech is penalised to-day between prisoner and prisoner as it was 20 years ago. To talk to another prisoner, or to sing, or to whistle, or make any musical noise of the kind, is still made the subject of a penalty of bread and water. In the name of common sense, how do you expect to reclaim an erring mortal by denying these common privileges of our common humanity? The visiting and writing privileges under this Measure are unchanged. The earnable remission is unaltered. Good conduct and steady industry are entitled to no more reward to-day in a convict establishment than they were in the year 1877. Then, I believe, the food has been increased. [Mr. DILLON: By one ounce]. I believe the increase has been a trifle more. The meat has been increased to the extent of 3 oz. a week, and bread to the same extent, but the dietary scale remains practically the same now as it was then. Star class men, about whom the right hon. Gentleman spoke so hopefully the other night, get no more food than the ordinary class prisoners. They are segregated from all old malefactors—that, of course, is only a right thing to do—but that is all. They can earn no more remissions nor privileges than a convict of the ordinary class. Like any other prisoner, they can be subjected to Rule 42, which humanely declares that—"The penal servitude system not only fails to reform offenders, but in the case of the less hardened criminals, and especially first offenders, it produces a deteriorating effect."
What improvement do you think you can make in criminal character, first by starving a prisoner, and then by denying him the human right of slumber? That is more than I can understand. Then to continue the comparison between 20 years ago and to-day, the gratuity on discharge is the same under these regulations as under the old. The amount of schooling for illiterates during the sentence is the same—about half-an-hour per week. Books are not changed more frequently than they were 15 or a score of years ago, and flogging is still inflicted, and prisoners are fired at, and killed occasionally when they attempt to escape, as was the case 20 years ago. Notwithstanding, the increase of reconvicted criminals in the most serious classes of crime goes on, and the language of Lord Kimberley's Commission, in describing the failure of the system of penal servitude 20 years back, may be employed against the same system word for word to-day. Now Rule 44 widens the Star class, so as to embrace those who have not been before convicted, or who are not habitually criminal or corrupt in their habits. That is a step in the right direction, but it does not go far enough. The so-called intermediate class referred to in the Rule is a misnomer. These prisoners were known in the old days as the blue-dress men. The class, therefore, is no new creation. They were entitled then as now to an extra gratuity on discharge, and a few nominal privileges during the 12 months prior to liberation. Their position and prospects are in no way improved under the new rules. The classification under Rule 44 was halting and imperfect. It is not only right and necessary to put first offenders in a class by themselves, but there ought to be a further segregation of second-sentenced prisoners from the "old laggs," as they are called—the hopeless criminals. A criminal should not be abandoned as hopeless on the ground of a second conviction. Many things may conspire to get him into the toils of the law again. He may fail to report himself to the police, or to find work, or he may possibly be the victim of suspicion or despair after having undergone a sentence of imprisonment or penal servitude. A second sentence ought not to be looked upon as final evidence of habitual crime, and such men should be given another chance. They ought to be separated from habitual criminals, who ought to be classed together. They ought to have a prison to themselves where this seemingly incurable tendency to crime, this moral insanity, ought to be treated, as some think it should be, as a disease requiring special attention and treatment. Now, if I am not wearying the House, I should like to point out how it is that this system of penal servitude has been a failure. I think it has failed to bring about reform in criminal character, because of two fundamental faults which were and are still inherent in the system, namely, the spirit of mechanical intimidation and legal vindictiveness, in which it had its birth, and has until now been administered, and, secondly, the unsuitable training for the work of criminal reform of the military men who are now in charge of the prisons of the country. The dominating spirit of your whole prison system, especially when applied to convict prisons, is that which pervades the pages of Sir James Stephen's History of Criminal Law. It is the vindictive theory of punishment, not in the acts or desires of prison officials, but in the intention and meaning of the law itself, which commands that an outrage by crime upon the moral feelings of the community shall be avenged by a lex talionis in penal satisfaction for the crime against Society. This is the way in which the law of penal servitude punishes and tries to deter criminals from crime. I have shown that the failure of this system is due to the spirit which has been imported into it by the criminal law. The strong tendency in late years in most countries has been in the direction of reform by making penal establishments more of moral asylums for the cure and prevention of the moral insanity of crime, than of the use of prisons as mere punitive and deterrent institutions. This is the line of true progress, and there is an indication, I believe, in the Bill before us, as I have already admitted, that this new and better spirit is making a little progress even in this country, and I am glad of it. What is wanted is to make imprisonment more effective in its purpose, by rendering it more reformative. All the sarcastic comments upon the alleged proposals to convert prisons into hotels, and about English prisons becoming American Elmiras, is simply subordinating a question of high social interest to the ends of mere bantering and irresponsible criticism. A prison can be no more turned into a place of comfort and happiness than a tomb could be converted into a study for some editorial critics by covering up a coffin or two and introducing a few chairs. Even the unfairly abused Elmira is the negation of liberty, the abode of disgrace, the antithesis of home, the synonym of all that gives a man or boy the penalties of restraint and indurance for freedom and enjoyment of life, which crime or misconduct has forfeited to the law. It is not a question of whether a prison should be denuded of its character, but whether it is not possible to make the law of retaliation less vindictive than it is, and more successful than it has been in correcting criminal habits, under a system of punishment which has done no good whatever. I plead not for indulgence or creature comforts or luxuries for convicts, but I do plead most earnestly for a more merciful and more humane discipline which would warm with a kindlier human touch of sympathy and care the dormant or broken souls of those to whom Society has not shown itself too much or too often in the part of a moral good Samaritan. Now, the second reason why your vindictive system of penal servitude has failed to reform criminal character is founded upon the excessive employment of military men as governors of your prisons. I say nothing which could be for one moment considered personally offensive to Service Members in this House; they are, as we all know, among the most popular Members. Their failure as prison officials is not due to personal qualities, but owing to the habits and dispositions engendered by the course of military and naval training which they undergo, and which unfits them to play the part of successful moral physicians towards men suffering from moral insanity—as crime may be called. A famous French wit satirised a King by saying the nation wanted a financier, and the monarch gave it a dancing master. What we want is not dashing soldiers or gallant sailors or military scientists, but men who can work out some cure by a special study of criminal character, and what is best calculated to reform it while penalising the offender. Let me illustrate my argument by a few figures from the Report of the Discipline and Management of Military Prisons in 1896. I assume—though the Home Secretary said nothing upon this point on Thursday—that military prisoners will be affected to some extent by this Bill and the Rules laid upon the Table of the House. In this Report I find the following startling figures: in one year, out of the standing Army, averaging in home strength, according to the Report, 101,865 men, there were no less than 102,597 minor punishments inflicted by commanding officers—potential prison governors—and of this astounding number no less than 6,655 soldiers were sent to Military Prisons, or one imprisonment in the year for about 16 Tommy Atkins's in the Army at home. I put it to this House, Mr. Speaker, that these are really startling figures. Of these sentences 2,249 were given by commanding officers, and the remainder by courts martial; and will this House believe it, these figures are the lowest in respect of similar sentences for any year since 1868. Now, what happened to this enormous proportion of soldiers sent to your military prisons, or handed over by military judges to military governors? These 6,000 soldiers received during their sentences 3,872 punishments, or about 70 per cent of the total; and among these punishments I find it recorded that 2,052 got bread and water, 80 got punishment cells, 20 restraint by irons, and—crowning shame of all—15 of them were flogged. We on this Bench can recall with pride the fact that the disgrace which attached to the control of your Army at one time of flogging your soldiers into disciplinary obedience was abolished by the action of the late Mr. Parnell. My contention, Sir, is this: if military judges can pass 102,000 sentences in a year upon 100,000 soldiers of the home establishment, what can be expected from military directors, military governors, military warders, and military discipline, when it it is a matter of punishing criminals, instead of men enlisting to serve their country. I think I can leave this argument and these figures to point their own moral. Well, Sir, I come to another very important subject, and one which cannot be overlooked. When we come to take into consideration the merits of this Bill, and the character of the Rules now laid upon the Table of this House, neither the Bill nor the Rules make any change for the better in the dietary scale of the prisoners. The Departmental Committee, in its timid recommendations, advised that the "No. I stirabout diet" should be reconsidered with the object of making the meal correspond more to the needs of human requirement. The Commissioners declare in their memorandum that they have considered this point, and have decided that no chancre is called for. Now, what is this No. 1 diet? I appeal to any Scotch Member opposite, or on this side of the House, whether it is possible for the best housewife in these three countries to make "stirabout" when she has only two ounces of meal with which to do it. For female prisoners—and I call the attention of the House to this matter—undergoing seven days or under, and for those who are sentenced to one month, the diet for the first week consists of six ounces of oatmeal and 16 ounces of bread each day; that is two ounces of meal in the form of skilly and five and a fraction ounces of bread for each of three meals, by this scale of scientific starvation. What good do you expect to perform by it? Do you propose to make them better women by undermining their health by means of insufficient food? Is the hunger which keeps them from sleep calculated to appeal to and nourish better moral feeling when your penalties of hunger and insomnia are naturally inciting all the instincts of humanity to revolt and revenge against the calculated barbarism of sleeplessness and starvation? This rule the Prison Commissioners will not change, even at the request of the Departmental Committee. The same rule applies, of course, in a more rigorous sense to male prisoners undergoing their sentences. There are one or two ounces more bread and meal per day, but the difference in the food requirements of male prisoners leaves the quantity virtually the same, and the same consequences follow—hunger, insomnia, and the other results of food of the poorest kind acting on the system. This is your boasted humanity, the change you are wishful to bring about, the progress to be marked by your new Bill and your new Rules. Next, there is no change in the punishment diet of prisoners. It remains the same under the new as under the old regulations—16 ounces of bread and a pint of water per day, for three days, if such a sentence is passed, and for every other alternate three days in a punishment of 21 days, bread and water. You would not punish a dog in that manner—you would shrink from inflicting any such inhuman penalty upon any animal in your possession. What good a punishment of this kind can effect upon any human being it is difficult to perceive. It teaches neither reform, charity, forgiveness, nor other moral quality to the prisoner. It only teaches the vindictiveness of law and the apparently incurable longing for cruelty in your prison system. There is no bodily punishment more cruel than hunger—that remorseless, gnawing, human feeling which tortures the mind in thinking of the sufferings of the body, and tending to make life an unbearable infliction under a denial of the elementary cravings of Nature. Here, again, you war against Nature and not against crime by the heartless stupidity of your system. I know a friend who underwent nearly eight years' penal servitude as a consequence of offending against the law, and I can speak for him that during that eight years he never ceased for one single day to feel the pangs of hunger. I do not think that you made him more loyal or a better subject by this means. Now, Sir, what are the inevitable effects of this barbarous system of punishment by starvation? I have seen men in Dartmoor coming out of punishment cells go down to the bone shed, where I was employed regularly every summer for three or four years, and literally eating the putrid marrow from the bones, simply because they were suffering from the horrible pangs of unsatisfied hunger. I have seen men pick up from the cesspool remnants of candles, purposely made offensive to the smell so as not to be eaten by prisoners, and wipe them on their clothes and eat them. These are disgusting and horrible details, but I am telling the House what I have seen. I am as certain as I am standing here that if any Member opposite had witnessed anything of this kind he would not sleep in peace for one night until he removed this reproach from the law of the country. Let me go from the punishment diet to the diet you give your star class of prisoners—your well-conducted men, those who do not commit any breach of the prison rules. Dealing with the fullest diet you give under the new dispensation, I find there is no material change, as far as I can learn from the rules, in the scale which obtained in convict prisons 20 years ago. The full diet for steady hard labour under the new rules is to be, for all the week, 14 ounces of meal, 168 ounces of bread, 15 ounces of meat, three pints of soup, one suet pudding, and seven pounds of potatoes. This is the scale for all sizes and conditions of prisoners at hard labour—large and small, vigorous and weak, young and old. It is enough in many cases, I admit, but most certainly not enough in most cases where hard work is a daily task and a strong prisoner is in question. In no feature did I find the Australian prison more of a contrast to English prisons than in the dietary scale. The quantity of food per week averages for each prisoner at Pentridge, in Melbourne, which is the leading prison in Victoria (and the amount is practically the same in all colonies), 56 ounces of oatmeal or maize, as against 14 ounces in England; 140 ounces of bread, as against 168; 56 ounces of meat, as against 15 ounces; and three pints of soup and a similar quantity of potatoes. I did not learn that a more just dietary scale made prison life more attractive to criminals. The percentage of reconvictions is less than here in England. But better work is done, and more work, because it is all, or nearly all, productive work, as there is not a single crank or treadmill now in Australasia. This brings me to another most important matter in the treatment of criminal character—namely, the kind of work to which prisoners should be put while undergoing their sentences. Here, again, England is behind the Colonies, and every other country, in what may be called progressive penalogy. The Bill is silent on this most vital matter, but the Prison Commissioners, in their Memorandum promise to substitute, wherever possible, rational labour for irrational crank and treadwheel imbecility. In this respect I am glad to find that the spirit of reform is asserting itself, and that public opinion in England, Scotland, and Ireland is altogether in favour of sweeping these cranks and treadmills out of your prisons. In fact, these things were condemned more than a generation ago by Charles Reade, who described them as "inventions of prison stupidity for the purpose of degrading labour below the level of crime." And this is what these crazy methods have done: they have tended to make labour detestable through having work associated with treadmills and cranks. But some advance, I am glad to acknowledge, has been made in the right direction. If industrial training, Mr. Speaker, in useful work, habits of daily labour, and the necessity of work of some kind for a living will not, along with accessory encouragement, reclaim prisoners not hopelessly criminal, nothing else, in my judgment, will. Anyhow, turning cranks or climbing treadmills will not, as has been proved, and the obvious change is along the path which other countries have successfully gone towards the remedy of industrialism. Well, now, Sir, I feel that I have trespassed too much upon the kindness of the House. I end by appealing most strongly to the House to assist us in trying to bring about a change in your prison system similar to that now taking place in most Continental countries. That change is in the direction of industrialism, of putting criminals to some useful employment, and of teaching them how to earn a livelihood when their sentence is over and they have got to go out into the world and try and make a new start in life. In France, in Italy, and in Germany there is a tendency towards employing prisoners more and more in agricultural work, and I was glad to find that a similar movement is in progress in Australia. I would strongly recommend prison work of that kind. It is work which will not excite too much, if any, opposition from trades' unions, because the increase of food produce in this country will only mean competition against foreign producers, and the result can only tend to make food cheap for the masses. I would plead strongly in favour of adding land, wherever possible, to your convict prisons, and of removing, if possible, your local prisons from cities or towns, and as far out in the country as possible. Work of that kind would be more healthy for mind and body than turning cranks or mounting treadmills. I would, in conclusion, call the attention of the House to the spirit that animates the administrators of prisons in France. Reference was made by an hon. Gentleman opposite the other night to the French prisons, and he declared that they were behind English prisons in humanity and in considerateness. Well, I think he was in error, and the following extract which I am about to quote from an article written by an Englishman in the Contemporary Review of a year or two back—I have not the exact date—will show that the hon. Member was entirely mistaken. It was written by a gentleman who visited the prison of Melim, in France—one of the largest establishments in the country—and these are his impressions—"A male prisoner may be required to sleep without a mattress until such time as may be determined by the rules of the prison."
not for 20 or 30 minutes a week, Mr. Speaker, as in English prisons—"Considerable credit is due to the French system of adapting the labour and occupation of prisoners to useful ends, both physically and morally. All the trades taught are more or less useful to the prisoner after liberation, whilst in the long-term prison at Melun first offenders are put at once to learn the honourable art of printing. The workshops of the new prisons, which are gradually superseding the older structures, are centres of healthy, active life, with a scale of payment according to the work done. Labour is also proportioned to the prisoner's mental capacity, health, habits, and disposition. The question of recreation, too, is taken especially into account, thus not only reducing the monotony of prison existence, but forming an incentive to prisoners to industry and observance of discipline. Another point worthy of attention is the principle of enabling prisoners to preserve their self-esteem, evidenced by the various little rewards and distinctions conferred for good conduct and good service, as well as by the form of labour to which each is subjected. It may therefore be taken for granted that in the French model prison every effort is made in the direction of humanising the prisoner. Hence the intellectual, side of life naturally plays a considerable part in the daily discipline. Each prisoner is obliged to attend school"—
Well, all I would ask, finally, Mr. Speaker, is that sooner or later—sooner, I hope—this House will be able by means of this Bill to induce some Home Secretary to introduce into the penal system of the three countries some of the enlightenment, some of the humanity, and some of the merciful discipline of the French prisons, which have produced such good effects upon criminals there."every day either as a pupil or a teacher. The subjects taught are varied and scholarly, including mathematics and foreign languages. In some prisons there is a brass band and a music-room. The mind is further enriched and solaced by occasional community readings, singing, and concerts. Brightness and cheerfulness accompany the daily promenade, the exercise yard being profusely planted with trees and flowers. As for spiritual requirements, priest, pastor, and rabbi have every facility for intercourse with the prisoners, of which they largely avail themselves. That other important subject, the stomach, is also not disregarded, for it is clear that efforts such as have been described above would be futile if spent on convicts whose only thought is a good 'square meal.' Here we have the French system of the canteen, which supplements out of the prisoners' earnings the ordinary dietary regulations, which of themselves are favourable. Finally, the question of outside communication is solved satisfactorily for the prisoner, who not only can see his relatives several times during the week, even when under punishment, but may write home practically as often as he likes."
Mr. Speaker, the speech to which we have just listened has been a most valuable contribution to this Debate, and though in some respects, perhaps, the hon. Member for South Mayo has not given the credit which, I think, is due to the Government intentions with regard to this Bill, the speech was, on the whole, characterised by great fairness, absence of exaggeration, and valuable facts and suggestions which I hope will not be overlooked by the Home Secretary. More especially, Sir, do I think that some of his suggestions with regard to long sentences, with regard to diet, with regard to the treatment of first offenders are well deserving of consideration. I feel reluctant to follow the hon. Member into some of his interesting remarks, because I know there are a good many other Gentlemen anxious to speak; but I wish to refer to one or two other points. I am glad that the hon. Member who has just sat down laid stress on the importance of the rules which this Bill empowers the Home Secretary to make. In that respect he differs from the mover of the Amendment. The only objection that has been taken to the principle of the Bill is as to the power to frame these rules. The arguments have tended in the direction of showing that the present Bill was meant to deprive Parliament of some power which it now possesses, whereas the absolute reverse is the case. This Bill, so far from tending to create a more rigid system of administration, will give Parliament the power, which it does not now possess, of considering and co-operating with the Home Office in the consideration of prison treatment. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green similarly declaimed against the secrecy and the bureaucracy of the Prison Commissioners and their system, and other Members declaimed also against the absence of the element of local control. Well, Sir, on all these points I maintain that their arguments were not directed against the Bill, but against the system as it exists now. My reason for supporting this Bill—which I do very heartily—is because I consider it a step in advance. It is not an heroic Measure, which is, perhaps, scarcely desirable, but an honest and well-intentioned Measure in the direction of remedying the three great defects of our present system—namely, want of elasticity, publicity, and local control. The arguments of the mover of the Amendment were directed against the present system, which this Measure, by getting rid of the Schedule of the Act of 1865, will amend. The Home Office, at the present moment, is bound hand and foot by the regulations of that Schedule, and one important consideration which ought not to be lost sight of is that the minor reforms, which could easily be carried out under the provisions of this Bill, are left now year after year untouched, simply because we can do nothing except by an Act of Parliament; and to multiply enactments in this manner is to render confusion worse confounded. And therefore, Sir, I say it is really childish to describe this Bill as diminishing Parliamentary control over our prison system. On the contrary, it invites the aid and co-operation of Parliament in the administration of our prison system. And similarly in regard to publicity. Some Members in the House may not be aware that up to the present time the rules with regard to convict prisons have never been published at all. Again, the rules which regulate the management of local prisons are a scattered and incoherent mass of regulations, of which nobody really knows the precise extent or effect. Well, this Bill, I say, will be of great assistance, and it only points in the direction of formulating what we have not got at the present moment—namely, a code of prison rules to which reference can be made, and which will also have the effect of being elastic in its nature. Reference was made by one hon. Member to the non-publication of the Standing Orders. There is much labour involved in the publication of those Standing Orders, and that is, I understand, the reason of the objection of the right hon. Gentleman, and not any personal disinclination to make public the method and the intentions with which they administer either this Bill or the Bill now proposed to be enacted; and, Sir, I would venture here to say that I deprecate and regret the amount of suspicion which appears to be engendered in the minds of a good many hon. Members with regard to all our officials in this matter of prison management. I venture to say that the greatest distrust of those officials lies in the minds of those who know least about their work. Now, Sir, at the present moment I say that we have really no code for determining the conduct of our prison system, but under this Bill, followed as it will be by a consolidation Act, which will be very easily provided and passed, you will then have your whole prison system contained in one Act, together with those prison rules which are to be formulated by the Home Secretary. My right hon. Friend below me, the late Home Secretary, did, I think, very valuable service, amongst other things, to the cause of prison reform by sending a representative from his Department to attend the Paris Congress in 1895, with the result that we now are in constant and close touch with the permanent International Commission sitting at Geneva to discuss all questions affecting the system, not only of this country, but of all European countries. With regard to the local control element in this Bill, whereas convict prisons hitherto have been close corporations without that local control, which is so desirable, we are at least to have under this Bill a very large admixture of that element. Whilst the Measure invites Parliament to frame rules, it also invites the public element to assist in supervising the administration of those rules. I feel certain that the Home Secretary and the Prison Commissioners will not object to any extension of the clause under which the present system of prison visitors may become consolidated; on the contrary, I believe they will welcome any reasonable and suitable extension of this principle of local control in the management of prisons. Well, Sir, the most important provision, to my mind, of this Bill is dealt with by Clause 5, which, for the first time in the history of our prison system, does make an attempt to bring about a classification of prisoners. I am rather surprised that the critics of this Bill have failed to note what seems to me to be a weak point in the Bill—namely, the fact that the carrying out of this very desirable reform of the classification of prisoners and differential treatment must depend, under the Bill, entirely upon the action of the magistrate. Now, Sir, I do not want to condemn, or to use any unduly strong language with regard to the action of magistrates, but this I do say, that, as everyone is well aware, it is most difficult to get the local magistracy to avail themselves of provisions of Acts of Parliament which have already been passed for their guidance in the treatment of juvenile offenders, and unless the magistrates put Clause 5 of this Bill into operation it will remain a dead letter. We cannot, Mr. Speaker, have a good prison service unless you have an intelligent administration of the law in our Courts of first instance in this country, and I think it may be very necessary for the Home Secretary to take more active means than the Home Office have yet done to bring the provisions of the Bill in this respect under the notice of the local magistracy. Although, of course, a great deal will depend upon their judgment, I heartily hope and trust that they will carry out the duty entrusted to them of making those valuable provisions really of active service to the country. Sir, it has been well said—better said than I can say it—by those who have preceded that there is much to be desired with regard to the knowledge of the meaning and the effect of sentences in this country. When I was out in Rhodesia a friend of mine who was a stipendiary magistrate told me that in his opinion nobody ought to be permitted to give sentences who had not served at least one month either as the Governor of a prison or in some other capacity where he is able, from practical experience, to understand the effect of the sentences he is inflicting. Still, Sir, there is this difficulty in the way of the successful operation of the differential treatment of prisoners, a difficulty which I hope will diminish as time goes on. This Bill itself is an honest attempt to apply for the first time the principle of classification and differential treatment. Now, Sir, the question of the treatment of juvenile offenders has been well dealt with by my hon. Friend who last addressed the House, and I desire to express my acknowledgment to the Home Secretary for the manner in which, before the introduction of this Bill, he interested himself in the question of the treatment of juvenile offenders; and, if I may venture to say so, I believe he has adopted some suggestions which I was able to offer him for the better treatment of young prisoners on remand or awaiting trial. And now, Sir, with regard to a point which was raised by the seconder of this Amendment as to the inclusion of debtors in this Bill. I think that is a technical point which can be discussed in Committee, but I would like to point out this to the House, that if it be true, as has been stated, that many debtors are committed to prison who ought not to be so committed, the fault must lie with the county court judges, who do not carry out the Act of Parliament, because the Act distinctly says that the county court judge shall satisfy himself that the debtor committed to prison is a man who can pay and will not pay. Now, Mr. Speaker, on the general question, I merely want to say one or two words. I do think that a good deal of exaggerated language has been used during this Debate with regard to our present system. I think that was conspicuously absent from the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, whose suggestions were all the more valuable. I do not say that in some instances he either did justice to the present system or did not exaggerate its evils, but, on the whole, his speech contained most valuable suggestions. Sir, we must remember that prison treatment has to be deterrent as well as reforming, and in our desire to have regard to the latter, we must not wholly overlook the former. For my part I earnestly and heartily desire to see the most humane treatment of our prisoners consistent not only with the maintenance of discipline, but also with a deterrent effect upon them. Reference has been made many times during this Debate to the American system. I would venture to ask the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of publishing as a Parliamentary Paper the reports—I believe very valuable reports, which have been made with his sanction and full approval—made by the Chairman of the present Commissioners as a result of his recent visit to America. That report, I think, would be extremely interesting to hon. Members, and at this moment, before the Bill goes into Committee, I believe it would be studied by those interested in the question with pleasure and satisfaction. Sir, I was much struck with many of the remarks made by the hon. Member for South Mayo on the treatment of prisoners under sentence. In respect of his remark upon dietary, I do think it would be very desirable that the Home Secretary should satisfy himself that the present dietary is sufficient. My own belief is that what is called the No. 1 dietary is insufficient. Although that is only given for seven days, I agree with the hon. Member for South Mayo that nothing can be done with a prisoner by starving him and reducing his physical as well as his mental powers. I venture to hope that one result of this Debate will be to induce the authorities to diminish to some extent, at any rate, the rigours of the treatment which is accorded to long-sentence prisoners. With regard, for instance, to the plank bed, is there any reason whatever why the plank bed should be retained? I cannot myself think that, either in respect of dietary or in respect of the plank bed, any object is served in the way of the physical or the moral improvement of the prisoners. I regretted very much to hear the general, vague, and I think enormously exaggerated remarks made by the hon. Member for East Donegal in his speech the other night. It was not a speech which would convince the House, because the statements of the hon. Member were vague and ill-considered. The hon. Member was a member of the Departmental Committee, and he signed the Report of that Committee without dissenting from the statement in that Report that our prison system was neither inhumane nor deficient in those characteristics and elements upon which the hon. Member for Roscommon, the other night, insisted so much. Sir, I will only say that I support this Bill heartily, not because it is a great Measure dealing with all the necessities of the case, because this is a matter in regard to which it is quite impossible to go in advance of public opinion; but I do support it because I believe it is a step in the direction of providing more elastic and more humane methods, and a more progressive system of prison administration.
The hon. Member who has just addressed the House said that in his opinion the evils of the present prison system had been exaggerated by many speakers, and he went on to add that he did not charge the hon. Member for South Mayo with exaggeration. I think, if the hon. Member for South Mayo drew a true picture of our prison system as it actually exists, a more terrible indictment of that system can never have been drawn. I think all parties in this House will acknowledge the self-restraint and the moderation of the speech of the hon. Member for South Mayo. He said at the beginning of that speech that he would endeavour to treat the subject without any personal feeling; and, although that was a difficult task, I think he kept his word, with the result that his speech probably carried very much more weight with all sections of the House than if he had given way to his natural personal feelings in this matter. I am anxious, before this Debate comes to a close, to make a short contribution to the discussion, because the subject under discussion is one which has for a very long time been one of the keenest interest to me. Circumstances have afforded me an opportunity of investigating for myself the treatment of prisoners in this country, and of comparing that treatment and the entire prison system of this country with that which exists in various States in America. On the treatment in Great Britain of political prisoners I will not, after all that has been said on the subject by other speakers, dwell. All I will say is this: In my opinion, the principle on which England has always proceeded in her dealings with political prisoners, certainly in recent generations, has been deeply disgraceful to this country. But, as I say, I do not propose to travel over the same ground in this matter that has been already travelled by other speakers. I desire in the few remarks which I will make to the House to deal broadly with the entire system, and I desire to say at the outset that I regard the prison system which exists in this country as the most brutal and the most brutalising in existence. It has been well said that the end of punishment in every civilised nation in the world should be prevention and reformation. In England the end seems to be rather vindictive retribution. English prisoners are not treated as human beings. No effort whatever is made at reform in convict establishments. All that is good in a man's nature is crushed and destroyed in a place like Portland, and all that is brutal and bad is brought out. The same kind of punishment precisely, the same kind of work precisely, the same discipline precisely, is imposed upon all prisoners alike, not only without any regard whatever to the intrinsic guilt of their offences, but without any regard to their previous training, or habits, or education. First offenders, although put in a class by themselves, are treated with precisely the same discipline as the other prisoners in gaol. Men whose lives have been spent in mental exercises are put upon the same work as others who are entirely uneducated. All alike, whatever their conduct in prison, whatever their offences, are subjected to the same cast-iron treatment of isolation and of absolute silence; in fact, all are treated not as human beings, but as mindless and soulless atoms. Sir, I will vote in favour of this Bill because it goes some way in the direction in which I desire prison reform should go, but I confess that the Bill is a most halting and disappointing one. It seems to be the creation of men who are conscious of the defects of the present system, who see the direction in which they ought to go, but who have not the courage of their convictions, and who are afraid to enter boldly on the path of reform. Sir, I have seen your prison system, not, indeed, in the same way as the hon. Member for South Mayo has seen and suffered from it, but I have seen it at work at Portland and in other of your convict establishments. One test of the treatment is this. The proportion of the educated or semi-educated men who are punished in Portland and other convict establishments, who go mad under the treatment, is absolutely appalling, and, for my part, I do not wonder at it. There are, roughly speaking, in Portland two classes of prisoners—those engaged in outdoor work (on quarries, as it happens to be there), and those engaged on indoor work in the prison. Let me for one brief moment recite to the House the diary of a man of each class. A man who is at work inside the prison rises at five in the morning and remains in his cell until six. During that hour his breakfast is brought into his cell. Then he remains there till seven, when he goes to chapel. After chapel the prisoners are all paraded, and, in the presence of one another, in a very brutal manner, their clothes are either taken off or opened, and their whole body is completely searched. After that they go to the workshops at about 7.30, and remain there till about 11.10. Then again they are paraded, and the same brutal system of searching is again pursued. Then they come back to their cells at 11.20; they have their dinner there, and remain in their cells till 12.45. Again they are brought out, and in the presence of one another they are again searched in this brutal way by the warder. Then they go to their workshops again till five o'clock, after which they are again searched in the same way, and then brought to their cells and given their supper, and then they are locked up for the night. Now one point before I go further. Here is the whole day, from five o'clock in the morning till five o'clock in the evening, and not one single quarter of an hour passed in open-air exercise under the sky of Heaven. There they are the whole 24 hours indoors. The only time they get a breath of fresh air at all is that, when they are going to their workshops, they have to march across a yard to get from their cells to the workshop. Then with regard to those prisoners who are engaged in open-air work in the quarries, the work they do is of even a more degrading and brutalising kind still. I remember on one occasion when I was going to Portland on a bleak winter day in a snowstorm. Driving up this road in my comfortable closed carriage, I came across a gang of prisoners; they had evidently been caught in the snowstorm, and they were going back to the prison from the quarry; 10 or 12 of them were yoked together exactly like beasts of burden, with collars round their necks, and some of them yoked to the cart which carried the stones which they had been breaking, with, of course, armed warders surrounding them. Now, can you conceive anything more brutal and brutalising than that?
What had they done?
I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon.
The hon. Member for Sheffield says that that is not done in this country.
The hon. Baronet must not misrepresent me. That is not what I said. I asked, what had those prisoners done?
I do not know what they had done, but the view I take is, that no matter what a man may have done—["Oh, oh!"]—I may be quite wrong in my view, but I am entitled surely to state it—no matter what a man may have done, it is the duty of the State, in the punishment accorded to him, to endeavour to cultivate the germ of good which there is in every man, rather than to bring out all that is brutal in his nature. And, Sir, not only are all days alike spent in the way I have described, but during the whole of those days absolute silence is enforced. I see that one of the recommendations of the Departmental Committee is that this system of absolute silence should be to some extent relaxed. But the answer the Commissioners have given is certainly not encouraging. The system of absolute silence is enforced in the most rigorous way in all these convict establishments. When visits are allowed to these men, which is once in three months, the visits are held under such degrading and humiliating circumstances that to any man who has any remnant at all of decency and good feeling left, it must be an additional punishment instead of a privilege. Take the case of an unfortunate man who was not seen any of his relatives, and is visited for the first time by, say, his wife or daughter. He is locked up like an animal in a cage at one side of the room. On the other side his visitor is put in a cage; there is a warder present, and the prisoner and his visitor converse, but they are not allowed to shake hands even. I ask, what is the object of the spirit which imposes that kind of treatment? Surely you would not make the punishment less deterrent if a man were allowed like an ordinary human being to sit down and talk to his visitors—in the presence of a warder, if you like. Then, Sir, there is the question of letters. Letters are only received once in every few months by these men, and for the slightest breach of prison discipline the privilege of receiving these letters is taken away. No reward for good conduct of any sort or kind is given to these prisoners, except, indeed, the remission of sentence of a limited character, which they get if they do not break the prison rules. Now, the American system, with which I have made myself familiar, is exactly the opposite. I am speaking not of the Elmira Reformatory, although I think it would quite possible to defend that institution and the methods pursued there, but I am speaking of the ordinary convict establishments in America. They vary in almost every State in some details, but the spirit in which they are regulated is the same all through America, and that spirit is the exact opposite of the spirit which rules the prison system of this country. The idea underlying the prison system of America is to endeavour to bring out and develop whatever is good in a man's nature by humane treatment. Every one of these convict establishments is, in a sense, a reformatory where, by good conduct, prisoners may from day to day, and week to week earn various privileges quite apart from the remission of sentence. I rather gather from the interruption of the hon. Baronet opposite just now that his idea of the object of punishment is to make men suffer—not to deter others from crime. That is certainly not the spirit of the prison system in America. The spirit of the American prison system is to deter and to reform, and when men say, as I have heard it said in this country, that the American system is too lenient, the answer is to be found in the fact that ordinary crime in America, where this system is in existence, is not more rife than it is in this country, where you have the more rigid system. Discipline in prisons in America is just as well preserved as discipline in prisons here, notwithstanding the fact that the American prison authorities have to deal with a class of prisoners, the majority of whom are probably more difficult to deal with than our English prisoners—I mean the lower sections of the coloured population. Now let me contrast very briefly one or two items in the two systems. Take the number of visits that a prisoner may receive in America. The number of visits he may receive depends entirely on his conduct. If he is a well-conducted prisoner he may earn as a reward the privilege of receiving a visit as often as once a week. During the visit he is allowed to sit down in an ordinary room by the side of his visitor in the presence of a warder; anything in the nature of a cage, as in the English case, is entirely unknown. So with regard to letters. In America prisoners may receive, according to their conduct being good or bad, so many letters, and they may also earn the privilege of writing letters. On the question of food nothing struck me more forcibly than this: that, instead of the men having sent into their cells a certain quantity of food to eat in solitude, the prisoners in America all dine together in a large hall, and there is practically no limit to the quantity of food they may eat. In this country, no doubt, according to the system devised by scientists, you do provide sufficient food to keep the men alive, but it has been proved in the course of this discussion that sometimes you do not provide sufficient to satisfy the pangs of hunger of healthy and strong men. In the same way, Sir, with regard to books. In an American prison the prisoner by good conduct may earn the privilege of receiving from the library as many books as he likes, so long as he only reads them in his leisure hours. Here the number of books a prisoner may read is so limited that the prisoners have very grave reason for complaint. Then, as to newspapers, in almost every one of these American prisons the prisoners can obtain newspapers as a reward for good conduct. Let me ask for a moment, why should they not? Why, during the hours that the prisoners have free between their tasks, should they not be allowed to read newspapers and know what is going on in the world outside, and feel that they are still living beings in the world, instead of being taught, as they are under your system, to think almost that they have ceased to be human beings at all? Then, Sir, the cells in the American prisons are treated in the same way. By good conduct a prisoner can earn for himself the right to partly furnish his cell. I myself visited a number of cells in many prisons in the various States of America, where I found rugs on the floor and a chair and table; in some cases even I found flowers that had been sent in by the relatives of the prisoner, which he was allowed to keep within his cell; and on the walls of these cells they are allowed to keep photographs of their friends and relatives. Anyone who is at all acquainted with our prison system in England knows how brutally bare most English cells are. I had myself an extraordinary instance of the severity of the prison system in England in this respect not long ago. I was visiting a prisoner in Portland, and it was my sad task to have to break to him the news of the death of a very dear relative or friend. The poor man to whom I broke this news, when he heard it broke down and sobbed like a child. I had brought with me a little photograph, about two inches square, of the dead boy, and a lock of his hair. The prisoner begged of me to get him permission to keep these little relics in his cell. I went to the governor of the gaol—one of these military gentlemen spoken of by the hon. Member for South Mayo—and I made the request that this prisoner should be allowed to keep these articles in his cell. He answered me, with a look of amazement, "My dear sir, how could discipline be maintained if this kind of privilege were allowed?" I, however, took pains that the matter should be brought under the attention of the Home Office, and, owing to the kindly intervention of the Home Secretary himself, permission was eventually, after some delay, given to the prisoner to retain these articles in his cell. I mention that matter to show the spirit in which these prison rules are worked by the officials. Here was a governor who refused to allow this simple privilege to this man, and, perhaps, from his point of view, rightly refused, because it was quite at variance with the whole system that he was engaged in administering. Sir, in American prisons they also allow within certain limits converse between the prisoners. In their workshops, so long as they do their work and do not cause any disturbance, and so long as there is no breach of discipline, the men are allowed to converse with one another. They are on good terms with the prison officials, and it seems to me from what I have seen of the convict establishments of this country that that cannot be said of the English system. Anything in the nature of a kindly word passing between a prisoner and a warder is a thing unknown. Indeed, cases are on record where the fact that a warder has spoken kindly to a prisoner has led to a report being made and the warder being punished for breach of the rules. Sir, the whole spirit of the American system is more humane than the system here. The Americans desire to reach what is good in a man and develop it. In England the idea seems to be to treat every prisoner as incorrigibly and irredeemably bad. I came across the other day some lines which seemed to be very à propos—
"The vilest deeds, like poisoned weeds,
Bloom well in prison air;
'Tis only what is good in man
That wastes and withers there.
Pale anguish keeps the heavy gate,
Such a system as that is, I maintain, not the best system for the prevention of crime. It, is quite inconsistent with the idea of reformation; it only excels in vindictive brutality. I believe for my part that it is bad in policy. I believe that it is disgraceful in its nature, and I deeply regret that this Bill leaves it almost entirely untouched in its carefully organised brutality.And the warder is despair."
I should not have risen after the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Mayo if it had not been that through inadvertence I had given some offence to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield. I want to assure him that it was entirely unintentional on my part that I should have attributed words to him which he did not use. I am sorry my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland is not in the House, because I should have liked him to hear what I have to say with regard to the speech that he made this evening. We are all agreed, no matter what shade of politics we hold, that our prison system ought to be deterrent; but we, on this side, and I believe there are many on that side, too, have come to the conclusion that undue severity is simply not deterrent, and we are in hopes that, if not by this Bill, at any rate through the rules the right hon. Gentleman and his successors may lay down for the management of our prisons, a kindlier and a more humane and a more sensible and wiser system will prevail, which will be very much more deterrent than any system that we have adopted up to now. Some 10 or 11 years ago I happened to be passing through San Francisco, and I read an article written by the head of the State prison of California. He informed his readers that, having been allowed a free hand by the State authorities, he had reasoned out for himself the best method he could adopt for the management of his prisoners. He argued in this way:
He hit upon this plan, that the better work a man did the better food he should have. He said people of so low a type can best be approached through their natural appetite, and so successful was this system of his that he declares in that article that he invited employers of labour over and over again to come and look at these men at work in the prison, and that they had borne testimony over and over again that they had never seen men work as these convict prisoners did. The article which I read in San Francisco in May, 1887, has remained in my mind ever since. The argument seemed so simple, so clear, and so convincing, and I am in hopes that the right hon. Gentleman, when we get into Committee, will allow the Committee to amend that particular clause by offering prisoners not only the remote and dim hope of a diminution of sentence, but—[Mr. JOHN REDMOND: Better dietary.] I say not only a better dietary, but some further kind of amelioration of the system such as that described by the hon. Member for Waterford. I hope that when we come to that clause in Committee, the right hon. Gentleman will allow the Committee to amend it so as to offer other inducements to good conduct in the prison. I believe, as we all believe, that this Bill is an honest attempt to improve the management of our prisons, and I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary will have been convinced by what he has heard, and especially by what he has not heard, that if he allows those who wish to amend this Bill in a humane direction to have their way, the Bill will receive the almost unanimous support of the House."The men and women who come under my care are people of low intellect, people who dislike work, and who have been all their lives habitually lazy; how can I make them habitually industrious and fit them to go out into the world to earn their livelihood and become useful citizens?"
I had not intended to address the House upon the Second Reading of this Bill, because it is evident that the Bill is a step in the direction of ameliorating the system of prison administration in this country, and, with hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, I fully share the feeling that has been expressed upon the Bill this evening, that the Home Secretary is deserving of our best thanks for having made this effort to improve our prison administration. The hon. Baronet who has just spoken has relieved me happily from a portion of what I intended to say by the handsome excuse he has been so good as to make. I, therefore, need not refer to that portion of the subject again. But I may, perhaps, in self-justification for the observation I made, state that having had the good fortune to pass through this House the First Offenders Act, by which so large a number of persons, especially juveniles, have been saved from prison, I should be among the first to welcome any reform of our prison administration. But, Sir, having been associated for a long time with the administration of the criminal law, I can never dismiss from my mind the absolute necessity that punishment shall be deterrent as well as preventive. When the hon. Member for Waterford, I have no doubt in perfect good faith, gave us the dietary of the convicts at Portland, I could not help remembering that convicts are, as a rule, men who have been guilty of serious offences indeed; many of those offences have been accompanied by serious personal violence, and many of the convicts have been repeatedly convicted. Therefore it is only natural, and only necessary, that convicts should be punished with more severity than persons who have been guilty of less serious offences, and especially those who have been guilty of first offences. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my hearty recognition of the great services which have been rendered by the Chairman of the Commissioners of Prisons and Convict Establishments since he was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the late Home Secretary. There has been an undoubted improvement since his appointment, and the repeated visits which Mr. Ruggles Brise has paid to the United States of America have been undoubtedly of great advantage. There are two points in this Bill which I am quite sure deserve the most careful consideration of hon. Members. First of all with regard to the fifth clause, as to the division of misdemeanants. I do not think there is anything so important in prison administration as the division of prisoners. When the hon. Member for Waterford speaks of the association of prisoners, I am certain that he is not so cognisant, as I have had the opportunity of being, with the imminent harm there has been in many cases by the association between prisoners. The worst offenders invariably obtain an ascendency over those most easily influenced, and it is almost invariably an ascendency for evil. There is another portion of this Bill which I am quite convinced deserves hearty approval, and that is the provision it makes for rewards for industry and good conduct. I am glad my right hon. Friend has been able to put this matter on such a sound and clear basis. I am certain that the enactment of this Bill will be exceedingly beneficial to the criminal administration of this country, and will tend to the reduction of crime in at least the same ratio as that in which crime has been reduced in recent years.
My remarks and observations will be addressed to one point. I want to draw the attention of the Home Office and of the House to the system of flogging at present in operation in our convict prisons and in our local prisons. I know that the Home Office has, to some extent, amended and modified the rules which relate to the offences for which convicts may be flogged, but, although they have removed from that category many petty breaches of discipline, yet power is retained to inflict this punishment for comparatively trivial offences. Nominally, there are three offences for which prisoners may be flogged: (1) for mutinous language, (2) for personal violence, (3) for gross insubordination. It seems to me that almost anything a man might do or say could be included under one or other of those headings. Last year I drew the attention of the House to a case where a prisoner escaped from gaol in Carlisle. He made a very clever escape to Sunderland; he was brought back to Carlisle, and there sentenced to 18 lashes. I asked a question in this House of the Home Secretary, and I was told that it was not only because this man had escaped that he was sentenced to be flogged, but it was because he had been guilty of repeated offences against prison discipline. It seems to me that that sentence was an unjust sentence, whichever way you look at it. If he was sentenced to 18 strokes with the cat merely because he had escaped, it is a monstrous sentence, because that man showed, at any rate, that he had some grit in him. ["Oh, oh!"] I certainly think that a man who, when opportunity offers, makes an attempt to escape is probably a better individual than a man who never makes the attempt. [Captain BROOKFIELD): Is the State to reward him for it?] I really think my point is a sound one. The man is only following his natural instinct, and I hold that a man ought, not to be flogged merely for attempting to escape from prison. On the other hand, if the flogging was awarded for a number of petty offences, it is monstrous that those small matters should be recorded and kept against the man until the accumulation should be supposed to justify such a punishment. I only give that as an illustration. Let the House, for a moment, realise the character of the treatment to which a prisoner is often exposed and the exasperation to which he is subjected. You may have a man with his health and nerves shattered by, say, the want of his customary food, and a coarse word from a warder may so excite him that he utters an oath, or perhaps almost raises his hand, and for that he is liable to be flogged. The tribunal which sentences him to this punishment is an informal court inside the prison walls. The warder naturally makes the most of the offence; the examination is one-sided; the prisoner, who is already under one sentence, is practically playing with loaded dice in dealing with this new charge; he is absolutely undefended. What usually happens, I am told, is that after the hearing of the charge the prisoner is sent back to the prison; his sentence is not even pronounced in his presence, and the next morning, without any warning, he is brought out, and either strapped to what is called a pony, or fastened to the triangle, and given 20 or 25 lashes. I have some information about the character of the offences for which flogging is given. In one gaol, for idleness, threatening language, and threatening to break windows, 25 lashes were given. In another case, for continued idleness and refusing to labour, 25 lashes.
When was that?
That was in August, 1893.
That is not possible now. Flogging is not awarded for refusing to labour. I have issued instructions to that effect.
I am very glad to learn that, and, of course, I shall pass on. My next point is that the directors who control the administration of flogging in our gaols are, by their previous experience, not suitable judges. I have information about one individual whose visits are really marked by blood. He was governor of a gaol, and has been made a prison director. The House will very readily understand that when an individual has been accustomed for a long time to be associated with criminals, no matter how good his intentions may be, he is likely to be less humane in his treatment of them. I might illustrate this by the experience of people who witness bull-fights. The first time a person sees a bull-fight it is with loathing and horror, but after a little experience he becomes callous; and it is much the same in the case of those having to deal with criminals. I know it is said that these sentences are passed as a deterrent, and that in times past for such offences as garrotting flogging has had a good effect; and there are Members of this House, who are Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, who are strongly in favour of awarding the punishment of flogging for certain crimes, such as mutilation, rape, and so forth. But I would point out that in all those cases the sentence of flogging is given in open court, after a fair trial; whereas the men I am talking about are sentenced inside the gaol, without going through anything like a trial. I think the power ought to be taken away from prison directors of administering flogging on prisoners who are undefended, and who cannot receive a fair trial for any offence which they have committed in gaol. Englishmen are not accustomed to believe that the worst Irishmen are any less criminal than the worst Englishmen. In the last four years it has not been found necessary to flog a single Irishman in any Irish convict establishment or local prison, although there have been 154,000 men in local prisons and 3,600 Irishmen in convict establishments. In Scotland in the last six years it has not been found necessary to flog a single one of the 226,000 men in local prisons, and only two of the 2,576 men in convict establishments. It is only in England that this barbarous system still obtains, and I would appeal to the Home Secretary to so alter the rules as to obviate the continuance of this degrading and brutalising system of flogging in gaol, under sentences passed by visiting directors, who are not subject to any public supervision. In France and Germany long ago the system of flogging in gaols was abolished, and I do not think we ought to be behind the nations of Europe and behind our own Colonies in relation to this matter.
I beg to move the adjournment of the Debate.
Debate further adjourned till To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
Reserve Forces Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That the Bill be now read a second time."
I do not propose to oppose this Bill, but I do propose to object to the Second Reading being proceeded with at this hour. I believe that if this Bill could be explained to the House it would be simply laughed out of the House; it would be impossible that it should be passed. It is a flag of distress put up by the War Office in their extreme need. It is a Bill founded on this fact: that the War Office either cannot or will not look in the face the necessity of having six efficient battalions at home for the service of this great Empire. If we had only got six efficient battalions, this ridiculous and miserable substitute for efficiency would not be brought before this House. The Bill contains, in its first clause, every vice that a military measure could possibly contain. Men are to be brought back to active service, from where? They are to be picked up from casual wards and lavatories. They are to be given sixpence a day to register themselves, and to bear the badge of inferiority in service, and to hold themselves in readiness, on receipt of a six penny telegram, to serve in some battalion not their own. No man capable of obtaining honest employment will make himself liable for such service, and what will happen? A battalion like the Berkshire or the Warwickshire, with 150 capable men, will suddenly find itself swamped with 700 or 800 men, the rag-tag and bob-tail of other battalions. And what will they be engaged for? Not for the remainder of their Reserve service, not for four or five years, but they are to be taken on by the job, just for six—or at the outside twelve—months, and then sent back to earn their living and take their place in the industrial ranks again. If everything that we have been saying about the Army service is not a sham, if everything we have been saying about territorial recruiting is not a sham, if everything we have been saying about esprit de corps is not a sham, if everything we have been saying about attachment between officers and men is not a sham—then this Bill is an absolute sham and fraud. I do not want to detain the House now. I hope to be able to say more when the Bill gets into Committee. I am ready to accept anything which the War Office may propose which will really strengthen our Army; but what are we doing by this Bill? We are not adding one man to the Army. Every one of these men is already liable to serve as a member of the Reserve; and now we are to pick up these men, simply because the War Office will not face the realities of the situation, and will not apply themselves to the task of completing the miserable minimum of six battalions. They have done what they could to destroy the efficiency and morale of the Army, and this is their latest effort. I do not want to stand in the way of the Second Reading of the Bill. There is a very valuable provision in the Bill, in the second clause, and I am not going to oppose the Bill in toto, but I do trust that, if there are any hon. Members of this House who care for the honour and efficiency of the Army, they will be present on the Committee stage and ask themselves whether they can conscientiously vote for Clause 1 of this Bill.
I am very sorry that I cannot quite agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. The second clause of the Bill, the only one for which anything can be said, could be passed in five minutes in any time of emergency; but this first clause is really too serious to be allowed to pass. If this is one of the "reforms" which the War Office has promised us I say it is no reform at all. It is a scheme for making the Reserve more a bogus Reserve than it is now. I hope the House will not consent to pass this Bill at this hour and without any discussion. It gives power to call out the Reserve men for six or twelve months on giving them extra pay. It will be no assistance whatever in making regiments effective for foreign service. It will simply enable the War Office to make a show while the regiments are at home. I think there should be no desire on the part of the Government to pass such a Bill without adequate discussion.
It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
Supply 25Th March
Resolutions reported.
Army Estimates, 1898–9
Resolutions agreed to.
Locomotives On Highways Bill
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
I object.
May I appeal to the hon. Member not to persist in his objection? The Bill merely embodies the recommendations of a Select Committee, which consisted of Members representing all parties in the House.
I was on that Committee. I object.
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
Irish Surnames Bill
Considered in Committee; Committee report progress; to sit again.
Salmon And Freshwater Fisheries Bill
Bill to amend the Law relating to Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries: Ordered to be brought in by Mr. R. B. Martin, Sir Reginald Hanson, Mr. Bryce, Mr. James Roche, Colonel McCalmont, Mr. Munro Ferguson, and Mr. Seton-Karr; Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 28th April, and to be printed. [Bill 157.]
Adjourned at 12.5.