House of Commons
Thursday, July 13, 1899
Private Bill Business
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords]
No standing Orders not previously inquired into applicable.
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders not previously inquired into are applicable, namely,
WESTON-SUPER-MARE GRAND PIER BILL [Lords]
Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time.
West Gloucestershire Water Bill
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
FURNESS RAILWAY BILL [Lords]
GLASGOW CORPORATION (GAS AND WATER) BILL [Lords]
GLASGOW CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, &c.) BILL [Lords]
GREAT YARMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
KIRKCALDY CORPORATION AND TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
LOWESTOFT WATER AND GAS BILL [Lords].
TOTLAND WATER BILL [Lords].
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
Report [11th July] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time.—( Dr. Farquharson. )
Petitions
Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1845
Petitions for alteration of law; from Ferry-Port-on-Craig, and Montrose; to lie upon the Table.
Tithe Rent-Charge (Rates) Bill
Petitions against; from United Presbyterian Synod, and Kirkcaldy; to lie upon the Table.
Trout Fishing Annual Close Time (Scotland) Bill
Petition from Glasgow in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a light railway in the County of Essex, between Corringham, Thames Haven, and Kynochtown (Corringham Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command] to lie upon the Table.
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of light railways in the County of Lancaster, in the parishes of Barton-upon-Irwell and Stretford (West Manchester Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a light railway between Axminster, in the County of Devon, and Lyme Regis, in the County of Dorset (Axminster and Lyme Regis Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of light railways from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno, in the Counties of Denbigh and Carnarvon (Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Light Railways Order, 1898) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Sierra Leone
Copy presented of Report by Her Majesty's Commissioner, and correspondence on the subject of the Insurrection in the Sierra Leone Protectorate, 1898. Part II. Evidence and Documents [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2315 and 2316 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
AFRICA (No. 6, 1899)
Copy presented of Report by the Mombasa-Victoria Uganda Railway Committee on the progress of the works, 1898–9 (with a map) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went;—and, being returned;—
reported the Royal Assent to a number of Bills. (See first item in House of Lords Report this day; ante , page 661.)
Selection (Standing Committees)
reported from the Committee of Selection that they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures: Mr. Collery; and had appointed in substitution, Mr. Power.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Public Petitions Committee
Eight Reports brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Metropolitan Police [Salaries]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the Salaries of the Commissioner, Receiver, and Assistant Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police (Queen's recommendation signified), upon Monday next.—( Secretary Sir Matthew White Ridley. )
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Belleville Boilers
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether, before finally sanctioning the adoption of the Belleville boiler for battle ships and cruisers now under construction or contemplated, of which the total cost will exceed £10,000,000, he will order a practical test to be made of the efficiency of these boilers under all conditions, as compared with other boilers; and whether, with this object in view, he will attach the "Canopus," on completion, to the Channel Fleet, and will send a vessel of the "Diadem" class and of the "Edgar" class respectively to carry out Naval reliefs in company.
The efficiency of the Belleville boiler has been practically tested under various conditions. My hon. friend does not seem to know that vessels with Belleville boilers have already been attached to the Channel Fleet, or that the "Powerful" has been doing excellent and regular service among the cruisers of the China Station. The adoption of the Belleville boiler for the battleships and first class cruisers now under construction has been definitely decided on, and the question so far as these ships are concerned cannot be reopened. The "Canopus" will be commissioned as soon as she is ready, and attached to the Mediterranean Fleet. I cannot make any definite statement in reply to the third question, but the Admiralty are taking advantage of every suitable opportunity to test these boilers to the fullest extent with a view to further possible improvements.
The "Sharpshooter."
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty how many the "Sharpshooter" has run on her boiler trials, how many tubes has she in her boilers, and how many tubes have been renewed during these trials.
The number of miles run on boiler trials, exclusive of distance run during contractors' trials, was 8,698. The number of tubes in boilers is 1,080. No tubes were renewed during these trials.
Haslar Hospital
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state if the medical authorities were consulted in connection with the recent appointment to Haslar Hospital; and whether the appointment made was in accordance with their recommendation.
The qualifications of all the officers whose seniority might en- title them to consideration for the appointment in question were thoroughly and exhaustively sifted in consultation with the Medical Authorities. The responsibility for the ultimate choice rested, as I have stated before, with me. Neither as regards executive, medical, or any other officers am I prepared to say on whose recommendation I act. I must say I think the hon. and gallant Member is somewhat ill-advised in pressing this question.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question as to whether the appointment was in accordance with the recommendation of the medical authorities.
I have answered the question. I said that the responsibility rested with me and not with the medical authorities, or any class of officers. I am not prepared to state on what recommendation I acted.
Naval Works Bill
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when the Naval Works Bill will be introduced.
The Bill is in the hands of the printers, and I hope to be able to arrange with the Leader of the House to introduce it early in the coming week.
H.M.S. "Jackal."
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that in the space of four months, between 1st January and 29th April, the crew of H.M.S. "Jackal" were allowed twenty-three days' leave of absence; and whether, in future, the "Jackal" will be more regularly on duty.
No, Sir. During the period in question, the crew of the "Jackal" have had only their ordinary leave for the night or for the Sunday when in harbour, besides the usual fourteen days' leave at Christmas, which was given by watches in accordance with custom.
Does the right hon. Gentleman dispute the accuracy of the statement made by the Lord Advocate?
Order, order.
Plymouth Breakwater Works
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it would be possible that workmen employed upon Plymouth Breakwater should be conveyed to and from their work on the steam-tug lately provided for in the Estimates instead of in open boats.
This is now being done. The Superintending Engineer gave notice to the workmen of the new arrangements in April last.
Army Tents
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, during the present summer, there have been, or will be, issued to Volunteer battalions going into camp tents of the pattern known as "Mark 2," many of which are worn out and unserviceable, and quite unfit to withstand rain.
The General Officer Commanding a District is responsible that all tents issued in his district are serviceable. It may therefore be taken that no "Mark 2" tents will be issued unless they are serviceable.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these tents have been already issued this year?
If so, then, in the opinion of the General Officer Commanding, they are serviceable.
Volunteer Uniforms
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the rapid assimilation of the uniform of Volunteer Infantry battalions to that of their territorial regiments, he is prepared, in the case of Volunteer battalions clothed in scarlet, to amend paragraph 221B of the Volunteer Regulations, so as to permit of such Volunteer battalions using the manual exercises used by Infantry of the Line and amend Section 865 of the Volunteer Regulations, so as to permit the wearing of the Infantry sash by officers and sergeants.
The question of assimilating the manual of exercise of Volunteers to that of the Regular forces is now under consideration. The question of wearing the sash has been carefully considered, and the Secretary of State does not think it advisable to make any change.
Government Employees as Volunteers
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that great hardship prevails amongst Volunteers who are working in Government factories owing to the fact that these men cannot attend annual camp drill without losing their pay; and whether, with a view to the further efficiency of the corps, he can hold out any prospects which are more likely to induce the men to put in more regular attendance at drills and camp.
This question has been considered, and it has been found impossible to permit absence without forfeiture of pay or equivalent overtime, but, with these reservations, every effort is made to facilitate attendance at drills and camps.
Gibraltar Barracks
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the attention of the Commander-in-Chief has been drawn to the urgent necessity of remedying the sanitary conditions of the barracks and huts occupied by the troops stationed at Gibraltar; whether he is aware that in consequence of the grants of leases to private persons of Crown lands in the city of Gibraltar there is a dearth of house accommodation at reasonable rents for officers and their families stationed there, and that the military medical officers have expressed an opinion that the congested condition and overcrowded state of the quarter occupied by the civil population is dangerous to the health of the troops; and whether the Secretary of State, having regard to the public interest, will take steps in conjunction with the Colonial Office to prevent further encroachments by building speculators and syndicates upon the few remaining sites available for the erection of defence works, naval and military storehouses, quarters for officers and dockyard officials, and recreation grounds for the troops.
The barracks at Gibraltar, though leaving much to desire, are not now insanitary. In the past five years some £26,000 has been spent on improving their sanitation. There is a scarcity of houses available for officers' quarters, and there is some overcrowding which is bad for the health of all the inhabitants, including the troops. All these points have been considered by the Committee on the condition of Gibraltar, and it has been decided that in future no Crown lands which may be required for any of the purposes stated in the question will be let on building leases.
Army Enlistments
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether his attention has been called to the case of Edward knight, charged on 28th June at Worthing with an assault on a girl; that the evidence being insufficient to convict, the accused was discharged, but the Chairman stated that his character was bad, and that if the charge had been proved he would have been severely punished, and that the best thing he could do was to enlist in the Army; and, whether, in view of the necessity of attracting respectable young men to the ranks, the attention of the Lord Chancellor will be directed to this obiter dictum of the Chairman.
Any remark such as that which the Chairman of the Worthing Bench is reported to have made when discharging Edward Knight, is, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, most reprehensible and injurious to the Army. It cannot be too clearly understood that the Army is not a penitentiary for bad characters, and the Secretary of State will consider what steps can be taken to induce magistrates to refrain from suggestions of so mischievous a nature.
Railway Companies and the Volunteers
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if the War Office has now succeeded in arranging with the several companies to convey Volunteer corps proceeding to camps of instruction upon Saturdays as heretofore, in order that full advantage may be taken of their holiday for the national defence.
I am glad to be able to inform my hon. and gallant friend that satisfactory arrangements have been made with all the railway companies concerned for the conveyance of Volunteers to camps on Saturday the 5th August next. I hope that this arrangement will be continued in future years.
Regimental Facings
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any regiments have yet applied for permission to resume their historical facings; and, if so, whether they have received the desired permission, and under what conditions.
Three regiments only have applied for restoration of their old facings, the Northumberland Fusiliers, the Yorkshire Regiment, and the Seaforth Highlanders. In each case the application has been granted. As I stated to the House on the 2nd of March, this alteration will apply to the tunic only.
Army Recruiting in the Highlands
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of recruits for the Army obtained this year in the Highlands of Scotland, and the average number recruited there during the preceding five years.
The recruits obtained in the Highlands of Scotland during the first six months of the present year have been 566. The average number recruited yearly during the last five years has been 1,035.
War Office Reorganisation
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is able to give an assurance that the Committee on War Office Reorganisation, of which he is chairman, will consider the advisability of recommending that the claims of officers wounded in action and rendered unfit for military service, but not incapacitated from performing secretarial and administrative duties at the War Office, shall be favourably considered for appointment to the clerical staff in the Adjutant General's Department, Quartermaster General's Department, and Ordnance Department on vacancies occurring in those departments.
Officers who have been wounded in action, and whom it is possible to retain on the active list, have from time to time been employed at headquarters upon such duties as they are competent to perform, but the Secretary of State is unable to give an undertaking that such officers will be employed in large numbers at the War Office.
Special Service Officers for South Africa
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the paragraph in The Times of 5th July, with regard to military preparations for South Africa, and the despatch of special service officers, was communicated to other newspapers as well as to The Times , and if so to which; and whether the officers despatched to organise residents and local forces will act independently of the Ministers of any self-governing Colonies in which the said residents and local forces may be.
The answer to the first question is in the negative. The officers selected for special service in South Africa will report themselves to, and act under the orders of, the general officer commanding Her Majesty's forces in that country. Their position in relation to the civil authorities of the colonies concerned will not differ from that of other officers already serving in the same command.
Can the hon. Gentleman state on what principle the information was given to The Times newspaper and not to other papers?
I have no idea. I suppose they asked for it.
I do not think that is a sufficient answer. I do not think the hon. Gentleman has answered my question.
Order, order.
It is the Pigott relationship.
Expanding Bullets
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Mark IV. missile is affected by temperature in its initial action, and is liable to develop an abnormal pressure and to detonation within the barrel, instead of exploding; and, if so, whether he will consider the propriety of not supplying this ammunition for Volunteer rifle competitions in hot weather. I beg also to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Mark IV. missile had to be replaced by another bullet at the Bisley shooting on Tuesday owing to the danger which was involved in the use of this newly adopted service cartridge by the Volunteer marksmen; and whether he can see his way to place samples of the missile in question in the Tea Room for the inspection of Members of this House. I beg further to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether he will institute an inquiry into the alleged bad behaviour of the Mark IV. missile at the Bisley rifle ranges, and particularly into the statements that such a cartridge would be most dangerous for those using it in tropical regions; and whether the War Department will reconsider its action in supplying this bullet to the troops now serving in South Africa.
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to answer his three questions at the same time. The Mark IV. ammunition was used by several battalions of British troops at Omdurman, and was reported on favourably. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the bullet is affected by temperature in its initial action, or that the cordite charge is liable to detonate. A report has been called for on the accidents which occurred at Bisley, and in the meantime other ammunition has been supplied to the Volunteers. This bullet has been proved by the firing of many thousands of rounds at Woolwich, and will continue to be issued unless the present inquiry should reveal some unsuspected defect. I shall be happy to place some of these bullets in the Tea Room.
Is it a fact, as stated in The Times , that the bullet which is intended to expand only on striking has shown an inconvenient tendency to expand before leaving the rifle?
The hon. Member had better wait for the report of the inquiry.
Guns for South Africa
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether thirty machine gun carriages were despatched yesterday for shipment at Southampton for South Africa; and whether Mark IV. bullets, which expand on impact, are to be used with these machine guns.
No machine gun carriages were sent to South Africa yesterday. If any machine guns should be sent to South Africa, Mark IV. ammunition would be sent with them.
Troops for South Africa
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether another battery of Royal Field Artillery has been selected for service in the Cape; and whether this is the fifth battery now under orders for the Cape.
Three batteries are under orders to proceed to South Africa, viz., 18th, 62nd, and 75th.
Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman purposes to answer all questions with regard to the movement of troops, in view of the fact that such questions may possibly be asked in the interests of the enemies of the country?
(No answer was given.)
Cooper's Hill Engineers
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has arrived at any conclusion upon the case of the senior Cooper's Hill Engineers, which some few months ago he stated was under consideration by the Government; and whether their complaint that their careers had been ruined by the terms of their engagement being broken, and that they are reduced towards the close of their service into a position of great anxiety and distress, can in any way be met and alleviated; and whether he will lay upon the Table, and cause to be circulated, the Government of India's despatch, No. 15, Public Works, dated 28th January, 1890, containing that Government's views upon the whole question; also copy of a Minute by Sir George Chesney written in January, 1890 (referred to in that despatch), and its enclosures.
I stated on the 15th of June in this House that a despatch conveying my decision on this subject was then on its way to India. Since then it has, no doubt, been received and acted upon in the manner which I described. A motion for the publication of the correspondence referred to in the question was put down in 1895, but my predecessor declined to agree to it, and I see no reason for departing from that decision.
Balkan Reforms
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to urge upon the Signatory Powers to the Treaty of Berlin the necessity for executing the reforms in the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with Article 23 of that Treaty; and whether, in view of the reports recently received from Macedonia, the Secretary of State will consider the desirability of inviting the Ambassadors of the Great Powers at Constantinople to re-examine the proposals made by the noble Lord now Member for Cricklade and the other European Commissioners in their memorandum of the 23rd of August 1880, on the introduction of administrative reforms into European Turkey.
Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople has joined the representatives of other Powers on several occasions in urging the introduction of reforms in the Balkan provinces, but it is not considered that such action as is suggested would in present circumstances be opportune.
Trade in Nigeria
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, what have been the figures of trade (imports and exports separately) for each of the ten years 1889 to 1898 between the United Kingdom and the territory administered by the Niger Company; whether any expense has been borne by the Imperial Exchequer in relation to that Protectorate since the grant of the charter; and in that case what has been the total sum so charged and for what purpose.
I am informed by the Niger Company that no separate account of trade as between the United Kingdom and Nigeria has been kept. A certain portion of the Nigeria trade is with the Continent. No expense whatever has been borne by the Imperial Exchequer in relation to the Protectorate since the grant of the charter.
Japanese Labour in British Columbia
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any remonstrance has been addressed to the Colonial Office by the Government of British Columbia, or any of its citizens, against the vetoing of the Provincial Act which prohibited the employment of cheap Japanese labour in the mines of the colony; whether the labour party of the colony has protested against this interference with the legislative privileges of the people of British Columbia, on the ground that the action of the Dominion Legislature has been influenced by the capitalists of the colony, whose interests favour the employment of cheap Asiatic labour in the mines; and whether he is aware that the labour organisations of Canada are in active sympathy with the views of similar bodies in British Columbia, and demand that some adequate safeguard shall be provided for the protection of Canadian labour throughout the whole of the Dominion against the influx of cheap labour from the East, which it is alleged this vetoing of the Act of prohibition will precipitate to the injury of the white workers of all the Canadian provinces.
The answer to all three questions is in the negative. I have received no protests on the subject.
Queen's Birthday Celebration in Natal
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will explain on what grounds, at the recent celebration of the Queen's Birthday in Natal, the children of natives of British Africa were forbidden by the authorities to view the festivities in company with the children of white people.
I have no information on the subject.
The statement has been published in the papers.
Transvaal Affairs
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government will lay before Parliament papers containing a full account of the Bloemfontein negotiations, and relative communications with the Governments of Cape Colony and Natal in regard to the position of affairs in the South African Republic.
I beg at the same time to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now see his way to lay upon the Table of the House the despatches from Sir A. Milner giving an account of the proceedings at the Bloemfontein Conference.
The papers relating to the Bloemfontein negotiations will be given. As to the communications with the Cape and Natal Governments I will consider what papers can be given—I may have to consult the Colonial Governments.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has formed an approximative estimate of the number of British-born white subjects of Her Majesty now domiciled in the Transvaal Republic; and, if so, whether he will communicate it to the House.
No census of the Transvaal has been taken since 1890. Sir J. de Wet estimated in 1894 that of a total Uitlander population of 70,000, 63,000 were British subjects. The total number of Utilanders now in the Republic has been estimated roughly at 200,000, of which the same proportion as in Sir J. de Wet's estimate would be 159,000 British subjects.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the law as to the education of children of English-speaking parents in the elementary schools in the Transvaal remains the same as described wit- nesses before the South African Committee, i.e. , that in elementary schools at Johannesburg and elsewhere education was only allowed to be given in the Dutch language, although it was admitted that there were plenty of competent English-speaking teachers available; and, whether the taxation of food and other necessaries of life continues as onerous and stringent as reported by witnesses before the Committee, and whether any change has taken place with regard to such taxation.
The law remains unaltered. Under it the Superintendent of Education may make arrangements for the education of non-Dutch speaking children on the Goldfields, and at present English is allowed to be the medium of instruction in the lowest standards, but more and more Dutch is required until Dutch becomes the only medium. The Uitlanders, being unable to avail themselves of the State-aided education, for which they have to pay, have voluntarily subscribed about £100,000 as a fund for providing education for English children on the Rand. I believe that the taxation on food and necessaries, though some alterations have been made in the customs tariff, remains substantially the same.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these taxes are above or below the same taxes in Cape Colony?
If the hon. Gentleman will give notice of the question I will give him a reply.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the case that under the resolution of the Volksraad in 1896 five schools have been established on the Goldfields of the South African Republic; that of the fifteen teachers ten are English and five Dutch; and that the maximum time required to earn the highest grants in these schools is five hours per week for the senior scholars.
I understand that a few such schools have been established, but I am not in possession of details as to the staff and the hours. I believe that a condition attaching to the grant is that the children must pass an examination in South African history and in the Dutch language. (See page 77 of C. 9345.)
District Agricultural Analysts
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture how many appointments of district agricultural analysts under the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1893, by county councils and councils of county boroughs respectively, have been approved by the Board of Agriculture in accordance with the provisions of that Act.
Appointments of district agricultural analysts have been approved for all administrative counties, with but two exceptions, and in fourteen county boroughs.
Tithe Rent Charge (Rates) Bill
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will specify respectively the rates referred to in Clause 4 of the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill as rates which the owner of tithe rent-charge is liable as compared with the occupier of buildings to be assessed to or to pay on the proportion of one-half and of less than one-half; and if he will name the enactments by which the rate is in each case imposed in the proportion mentioned.
The object of the exception in Clause 4 of the Bill is to exclude from relief those rates in respect of which owners of tithe rent-charge have already been placed by Statute in as good or better position than that in which they will be placed under the Bill. The most important rates which fall within this category are the general district rate in urban districts, and the special expenses rate in rural districts which are levied in conformity with Sections 211 and 230 of the Public Health Act, 1875, and rates levied for the expenses arising under the Lighting and Washing Act, 1833, in conformity with Section 33 of that Act, as extended by the Tithe Rating Act, 1851.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state the aggregate amount of the deduc- tions which will be made under the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill from the sums now payable to the local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire.
The aggregate amount of the shares of the counties and county boroughs in Wales and Monmouthshire in a sum of £87,000 distributed in the proportion of what are known as the "discontinued grants" would be £3,982.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state the amount which will be deducted from the sum payable to the County of Carmarthen out of the Local Taxation grant under the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill.
The share of the County of Carmarthen in a sum of £87,000 distributed in the proportion of what are known as the "discontinued grants" would amount to £277.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will consent to the motion for a Return relating to the amounts to be deducted in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill from the sums receivable by local authorities on account of the Estate Duty Grant, standing on to-day's Paper.
It would not be practicable to give the Return asked for without a detailed investigation of the circumstances as they at present exist in each parish in which tithe rent-charge is attached to a benefice, and even therefore if the value of such a Return were equivalent to the cost and labour of its preparation, which we do not think would be the case, it could not be made available until long after the Bill will, as we hope, have passed into law.
Hanwell Barrack School
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to a proposal made by the managers of the Central London School District to spend about £250 in establishing a printing office at the large barrack schools at Hanwell; and whether he will undertake to refuse to sanction such expenditure in accordance with his stated intention of not adding to the existing Poor Law children's institutions, in compliance with the recommendations of the Poor Law Schools Committee.
I have not received any proposal from the managers of the Central London School District on the subject referred to in the question. I understand that a proposal made by one of the managers to establish a printing press was referred to a committee, but that nothing more has been done in the matter.
Steeple Morden Recreation Ground
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the County Council of Cambridgeshire made an order on 11th May for acquiring four acres of land at Steeple Morden for a public recreation ground; and whether, as the confirmation of the order has remained unopposed, the Local Government Board will issue at an early date an Order confirming the order of the County Council.
The formal Order is in preparation and will very shortly be issued.
Colouring of Foodstuffs
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has recently promised or agreed to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into and report upon the colouring of margarine and the addition of preservatives to butter and milk.
I have appointed a Committee to inquire into the use of preservatives and colouring matters in the preservation and colouring of food generally. My right hon. friend the Member for Wigtownshire has consented to act as Chairman, and the other members of the Committee will be Professor Thorpe, of the Government Laboratory, Dr. Bulstrode, one of the Medical Inspectors of the Local Government Board, and Dr. Tunnicliffe, of the Physiological Laboratory, St. Bartholomew's Hospital.
Are we to understand that the Government intend to drop the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill this session?
Nothing of the kind.
Factory Fumes at Westminster
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the increasing quantity of smoke and fumes that are emitted from the pottery and drain-pipe works on the river nearly opposite this House; whether he is aware that on Tuesday Lambeth Bridge was invisible in the afternoon from this cause, and that the Committee Rooms, the Terrace, and the dining-rooms were filled for hours with most unpleasant fumes; and whether he can take steps to require the owners of these works to consume their own smoke and not contaminate the neighbourhood with these fumes.
The Local Government Board have no control over the owners of the works referred to in the question, but I have communicated with the Clerk to the Lambeth Vestry, in which parish the works are situated. I am informed that the Vestry have made and are still making daily observations with respect to the emission of smoke from the works of manufacturing firms in the parish, and particularly from the two leading pottery and drain-pipe works on the Albert Embankment, three inspectors having been specially told off for this purpose. Proceedings have already been taken in several cases, and convictions obtained in respect of the emission of black smoke. Several notices have been served upon the pottery and drain-pipe firms in question, awl summonses will be issued whenever any nuisance under the Act can be substantiated. It is understood that large sums have been expended by the two pottery firms in altering their furnaces and appliances, so as to minimise the smoke and fumes arising in the course of their manufacturing processes, and they have expressed their willingness to make any further alterations of a practical nature if any such can be suggested.
Local Government Board—Position of Sir Hugh Owen
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the late permanent Secretary of that Board, who retired from the office on the 31st December last with a large pension, still retains the appoint- ment of Receiver of the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund at a salary of £500 a year; and whether it is the intention of the Government that Sir Hugh Owen should continue to occupy the latter post for an indefinite period.
The salary of the office in question is £400—not £500 a year. It is quite distinct from that of Secretary to the Local Government Board, and the salary is not paid out of Imperial funds. The office is still held by Sir Hugh Owen, and I see no reason whatever why he should not continue to retain it.
School Attendance—Children's Country Trips
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the work of the Country Holidays' Fund, the Children's Fresh Air Mission, and similar organisations for sending children from London to country cottages for two or three weeks during the summer; whether he is aware that the number of children thus sent away annually is approximately 55,000, and is increasing, and that it is admitted on all hands that the benefit to the children, both physically and educationally, is very great; is he aware that the bulk of the children are sent away during the school holidays in order not to interfere with their school attendance, and that consequently there is constantly increasing difficulty in placing so many children with country cottagers during this short period; and whether, having regard to the immense advantages the children obtain, he will consider the possibility of this fortnight's visit being reckoned as school attendance on the ground of its educational value, or will in some other way propose a remedy for this difficulty.
The answer to paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 is in the affirmative. In reply to paragraph 4, it would be impracticable, in the opinion of the Committee of Council, to reckon these holiday visits as school attendance. But there is nothing to prevent the London School Board and the Voluntary school managers from making such arrangement that all the elementary schools in London will not have their holidays at the same time.
Railway Companies' Running Powers
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade when the Mansion House Association on Railway and Canal Traffic may expect to receive a reply to their letter to the Board of Trade with reference to the neglect of the railway companies to supply on their sectional maps information as to their running powers. I may add that the date of the letter was 11th May.
The Board of Trade have not lost sight of this matter, and as recently as the 3rd of July the Department received a letter from the Clearing House intimating that the subject was to be brought before a meeting of general managers on the 25th instant, and that after that date a further communication would be addressed to the Board.
Inhabited House Duty
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether lodges in the country which are let to labourers are liable to inhabited House duty.
The question is one of law, which can be authoritatively decided only by the courts; but the opinion of the Board of Inland Revenue is that a lodge belonging to and occupied with a dwelling-house is chargeable with Inhabited House Duty under the Act 48 Geo. III., Cap. 55, Schedule B., Rule 2.
Capital Punishment—Case of Mary Ansell
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has given his sanction to the execution of Mary Ansell on the 19th July; and will he state how many men and how many women have been executed in the years 1896, 1897, 1898; and in how many instances have memorials for mercy been refused.
As to the first paragraph, I must decline to answer any question in the House as to the advice which it will be my duty to tender to Her Majesty. Thirty-five men and one woman were executed in the period referred to. In the great majority of these cases applications in some form for mercy were made.
Scottish Reformatories and Industrial Schools
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consent to introduce the Bill which has been prepared for the transference of the control of Scottish reformatories and industrial schools to the Secretary for Scotland, on the distinct understanding that it shall not be proceeded with this session unless it can go through unopposed.
I am afraid that I cannot do this. There are several points of detail to be settled before the matter can be ready to be laid before Parliament.
Treatment of Young Prisoners
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what provision is intended to be made for young persons sentenced to detention in reformatory schools between their conviction and their reception into such schools, now that it will be no longer lawful to detain them in prison; and whether he proposes to send any circular to the various Courts of Quarter and Petty Sessions on the subject.
The Reformatory Schools Amendment Act, to which, I suppose, my right hon. friend refers, provides merely that a juvenile offender shall not be sentenced to imprisonment in addition to being committed to a reformatory. There is nothing in this to interfere with the provisions of Section 2 of the Act of 1893, under which the offender can be sent for a short time to a prison, or any other place, until a fit school willing to receive him is found. I am about to issue a circular respecting the new Act.
Burial Grounds Bill
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government intend to bring in a Bill during the present session to give effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee on Burial Grounds, as contemplated by them on 9th February.
No, Sir; I am afraid it will not be possible this session to bring in a Burials Bill.
Bail Regulations
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the observations of Mr. Justice Mathew at the Kent Assizes, in the case of the Queen against Ryle, in which the prisoner had been six months in prison awaiting her trial owing to the refusal of the committing magistrate to admit her to bail, as he thought he had no power to do so; and whether he will take the necessary steps to inform magistrates as to the powers they possess under recent legislation of admitting prisoners to bail.
I have seen a newspaper report of the observations of the learned judge. I have no reason to suppose that magistrates generally are unaware of their powers with regard to bail, and no evidence to this effect has reached me with the exception of this one case.
Street Regulations—Barrel Organs
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the custom of attaching cradles with infants in them to barrel organs and piano organs in the streets of London; whether some time back instructions were given to the police to put a stop to this practice; and whether he will take steps to have those instructions carried out.
My attention has not been recently drawn to this matter, but I will look into it.
Horse and Cattle Breeding in Scottish Congested Districts
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, what encouragement has been given by the Congested Districts Board for Scotland to the breeding of horses and cattle in the congested area.
I am in- formed by the Congested Districts Board that they have made grants in aid of premiums for good stallions, and have supplied bulls in approved cases.
Congested Districts in Scotland
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, having regard to the fact that under Section 5 of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, the board may accept gifts of property for any of the purposes provided by the Act, will he state whether any Highland landlords have yet made gifts of land to the board.
The answer is in the negative.
Peddieston Public School
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the material required for conducting water to the Peddieston Public School and the farm towns of Ardivall and Muirton (Black Isle), Ross-shire, has yet been delivered; and can he state when the pipes will be laid and the work completed.
I am unable to add anything to the answer I gave on the 27th of last month to the hon. Member.
Glasgow Police and Pauper Patients
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the attention of the Scottish Local Government Board has been called to the change of practice recently introduced in Glasgow in dealing with cases of debility and injury brought to the police offices and subsequently removed to the parochial hospital, whereby pauper patients are removed to that hospital without any certificate from the parochial medical officer of their fitness for removal; whether the criminal authorities have sanctioned the inspection of the private police books by the parochial officers; whether the removal of a moribund person on the data contained in these books, and without certificate from the parochial medical officer, would be held to satisfy the requirements of the Poor Law Act; and on whom, in case of mishap occurring in connection with a removal so conducted, would legal responsibility rest.
The answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question is in the negative. From inquiries made by myself through other channels, I find that some changes have been recently made in Glasgow in connection with removal. In the meantime, I have communicated with the Local Government Board in order that inquiries may be made; and if the hon. Member will repeat his question after an adequate interval, I shall be happy to reply on the subject.
Scottish Crofters' Holdings
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the large farm, referred to in paragraph 6, page 10, of the Report of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland has yet been secured for the purpose of creating holdings for crofters and cottars.
I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that as the farm referred to is not out of lease until 1902 they have not yet secured it.
Vaccination Prosecutions in Scotland
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the Parish Council of Bothwell have recently prosecuted two gentlemen for the non-vaccination of their children; and whether the Government intend to amend the Law so as to afford the same relief for the conscientious objector in Scotland which has just been provided by statute for similar objectors to vaccination in England.
The fact stated in the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question is, I am informed by the Local Government Board, correct. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.
Scottish County Authorities and Consulting Engineers
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the statement on page 6 of the Report of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland that difficulties have arisen owing to the divided nature of the responsibilities of the County Local Authorities and the consulting engineer, will he state whether those difficulties have been overcome; and, if so, in what way.
The statement to which the hon. Member refers was not made in the report, but in a note by the Under Secretary for Scotland, drawn up for the information of the Congested Districts Board. It applied to cases of works subsidised out of the Vote for West Highland and Island Works, but as that Vote ceased on the 31st March, 1898, there seems no object now in reopening these discussions. They were all arranged excepting the case of the Port Ness Harbour, about which the hon. Member was lately informed.
Spinning and Weaving in the Highlands
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state what efforts have been made to encourage spinning and weaving in the congested area of the Highlands of Scotland since the Congested Districts Board published their Report?
I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that the instructor referred to in the Report has been for some time at work under the local committee.
The Parliamentary Debates
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any steps have been taken with a view to enforce the liability of the guarantors of Mr. Bussy in regard to the non-delivery of the issues of The Parliamentary Debates to those who have prepaid for their delivery during the present session.
I am advised that the guarantors are not liable in this case. Their liability applied where the Government itself suffered by the action of the contractor, or where he broke any portion of the contract. The arrangements for repayment were no part of the contract.
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having regard to the fact that Members can now by means of a single order receive The Parliamentary Debates from 24th April to the present date, he will give instructions for the privilege, viz., by means of a single order, to be extended to the commencement of the session, as Members have in many cases either used or mislaid the necessary Pink Papers, they having been issued to them months ago.
Apart from the fact that the proposal of my hon. friend goes beyond the arrangement agreed upon, I find that there are practically no sets of back numbers available beyond those already purchased by the Stationery Office to secure copies for subscribers who had paid in advance.
The Licensing Commission's Report
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the Report of the Royal Commission on Licensing, from which copious extracts have already appeared in the Press, will be in the hands of Members.
It will be ready for delivery on Tuesday next.
Fair Rents in County Tyrone
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has observed that in the case of Patrick MacNeill, Pink Schedule dated 16th February, 1899, 15 per cent. is added to the rent for proximity to Moy, County Tyrone; and in the case of A. M'Kenzie, Pink Schedule dated 19th July, 1898, no percentage is added for proximity to Moy, although both farms are equi-distant from the town of Moy, which has less than 1,000 inhabitants; and whether he can explain this difference of procedure in fixing fair rents.
The question refers to matters which came before the Sub-Commissioners judicially, and the Land Commissioners decline to require the Sub-Commissioners to explain the grounds of their judicial decisions. The parties, if they feel aggrieved, have the right to require the cases to be reheard on appeal before the Land Commissioners, and in one of the two cases referred to I understand that notice of rehearing has been served by both landlord and tenant.
Rent Appeals in Waterford Union
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when it is proposed to hold meetings of the Sub-Land Com- missioners and of the Chief Commission in Waterford for hearing of cases in the Waterford Union.
No sittings of either the Chief or Sub-Commission for the disposal of cases from the district mentioned have, as yet, been arranged for. Sittings will be fixed at as early a date as possible, having due regard to the claims of other districts. There are only twenty-six cases from this district in which appeals are pending, and only eighty cases awaiting hearing before the Sub-Commission.
Belfast Wharves
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received further information regarding the unsafe and dangerous condition of the Belfast wharves; and if he can now see his way to address a remonstrance to the Harbour Commissioners on the subject.
Further information has been furnished to me by the hon. Member relative to deaths from drowning in the docks at Belfast, which have occurred since I replied to questions previously put to me on the same subject last year. With regard to the second paragraph, the Government have already been in communication with the Harbour Commissioners of Belfast as to the alleged unprotected state of the docks, and have been informed by the Commissioners that they have, in all places, erected protection railings a walls where they considered such could be done without materially obstructing the trade and traffic of the port. The docks and quays in the harbour have, I am assured, been constructed by the Commissioners in strict accordance with Parliamentary authority, and if that is so, they are not liable, in the absence of negligent user, for any accidents that may occur.
South Kilkenny Land Sub-Commission
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that no Land Sub-Commission sat at Waterford for the South Kilkenny district since October, 1898: and when will a Sub-Commission sit at Waterford.
The fact is as stated in the first paragraph. A sitting of the Sub-Commission at Waterford will be arranged at as early a date as possible, having due regard to the claims of other districts. There are only fifty two cases awaiting hearing from this district at present.
Urlingford Union Dispensary Districts
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been called to the unanimous resolution of the Urlingford (county Kilkenny) Board of Guardians, to the effect that no rearrangement of the dispensary districts of the union involving the abolition of any one of them could be made that would not inflict great hardships on the sick poor in many districts of the union; and, whether he will have personal investigation made into the matter, with a view to the withdrawal of the recent sealed order and the replacing of the dispensary districts in their former positions.
My attention has been drawn to the resolution referred to in the first paragraph. I have given this matter my own personal consideration, but see no sufficient reason to alter the decision which has already been arrived at after careful investigation by the Medical Inspector of the Local Government Board in respect to the re-arrangement of the dispensary districts. The Board do not consider that the re-arrangement of these districts will inflict any serious hardship on the sick poor; they believe, on the contrary, that the new arrangements will conduce to a better attendance on them.
Irish Official Assignees
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to Rule 250 of the proposed Rules of the Supreme Court (Ireland) 1899, now lying upon the Table of the House, referring to the qualification of official assignees for acting as liquidators in the winding-up of public companies; whether he is aware that a similar arrangement to that now proposed was brought forward in 1893, and was abandoned in deference to the strong protests of the Chambers of Commerce of Dublin, Belfast, and Cork, and other representatives of Irish traders; and whether, in view of the fact that the mercantile community in Ireland is still strongly opposed to the contemplated change, he will refuse to sanction the rule in question.
The rules referred to in the first paragraph of the question have not been laid on the Table of the House, nor is it necessary that they should be so laid, at present. They are now draft rules, and were so published in the Dublin Gazette , with a notice under the Rules Publication Act, stating where copies could be obtained, and that representations and suggestions made in writing by any public body interested would be taken into consideration before the rules would be finally settled. I am not aware of the circumstances under which the Bill of 1893 was not proceeded with, but assume, from the terms of the question, it was because of some opposition. I cannot admit that the mercantile community in Ireland is opposed to the rule as now drafted by the rule recommending authority, which includes all the Judges of the High Court in Ireland; but any public body which is now opposed to them can send in objections, which will be duly considered before the final settlement of the rules. I have not the power suggested in the last paragraph of the question, and I have to remind my hon. friend that the Rules in their final shape must be laid before Parliament, and may on Address be annulled.
Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Bill
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will fix the Third Reading of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Bill after it has been reprinted and at such a time as will afford opportunity for discussion on the Bill.
I understand that there are not many gentlemen who desire to take part in the discussion on the Third Reading of the Bill, but I will endeavour to bring it on at such a time as he suggests.
Sale of Food and Drugs Bill
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, having regard to the highly contentious character of the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill, and the strong objections expressed to several of its clauses by chambers of commerce and by large numbers of manufacturers and traders, he will consent to postpone the Bill until next session.
The following questions also appeared on the Paper:—
To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state when the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill will be taken.
To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill will be further proceeded with this session; and, if so, when.
.—To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government have decided not to proceed further with the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill, but intend to refer it for further examination and inquiry to a Departmental Committee.
There are a good many questions on the Paper in reference to this Bill, and I have to say that I propose to take the Report stage on Monday next. I do not wholly agree with the statement of fact made in the last part of the question of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division.
The Money-Lending Bill
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has received a memorial signed by a large number of Members on both sides of the House asking the Government, in view of the great benefit which the Money-Lending Bill would confer on the poorer industrial classes of the community, to pass the said Bill this session; and whether he can see his way to meeting the wishes of the memorialists.
I have received the memorial to which my hon. friend refers, but I cannot hold out any very sanguine hopes as to the prospect of carrying the Bill this session. Perhaps my hon. friend will wait for a final answer until Monday.
Business of the House
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now make a statement as to the further legislative business of the session?
I hope to make the statement next Monday.
Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 277].
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed [Bill 268].
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to—
Birmingham Corporation Bill
Midland and South Western Junction Railway Bill
Lincoln and East Coast Railway and Dock Bill
WOKING WATER AND GAS BILL.
LOWESTOFT PROMENADE PIER BILL.
With Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, entitled "An Act to amend the Law relating to Youthful Offenders and for other purposes connected therewith." [Youthful Offenders Bill [Lords].
New Member Sworn
THOMAS WRIGHTSON, Esq., for St. Pancras (East Division).
Sittings of the House (Exemption from the Standing Order)
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill, if under discussion at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order Sittings of the House."—( Mr. Balfour. )
The House divided:—Ayes, 247; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 249.)
AYES. Aird, John Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Allsopp, Hon. George Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Archdale, Edward Mervyn Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas Long, Col. C. W. (Eversham) Arnold, Alfred Fardell, Sir T. George Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Fellowes, Hon. Ailywn Edw. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r Lorne, Marquess of Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy Finch, George H. Lowe, Francis William Bailey, James (Walworth) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Loyd, Archie Kirkman Bailey, Jas. E. B. (Inverness) Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lubbock, Right Hon. Sir J. Baird, John George Alexander Fisher, William Hayes Lucas-Shadwell, William Balcarres, Lord Fison, Frederick William Macartney, W. G. Ellison Baldwin, Alfred Fitz Gerald, Sir R. Penrose- Macdona, John Cumming Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. MacIver, David (Liverpool) Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Maclean, James Mackenzie Banbury, Frederek George Galloway, William Johnson M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.) Barnes, Frederic Gorell Gedge, Sydney Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Gibbons, J. Lloyd Middlemore, J. Throgmorton Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor) Giles, Charles Tyrrell Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J. Bartley, George C. T. Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Barton, Dunbar Plunket Goldsworthy, Major-General Milner, Sir Frederick George Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Gordon, Hon. John Edward Milton, Viscount Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Milward, Colonel Victor Beach, W. W. B. (Hants.) Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's Monk, Charles James Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Beresford, Lord Charles Goulding, Edward Alfred Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Bill, Charles Graham, Henry Robert More, Robt. J. Shropshire) Blundell, Colonel Henry Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm' thsh.) Bond, Edward Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Morrell, George Herbert Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Greville, Hon Ronald Morrison, Walter Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Gull, Sir Cameron Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Boulnois, Edmund Gunter, Colonel Muntz, Philip A. Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Brassey, Albert Halsey, Thomas Frederick Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Brookfield, A. Montagu Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm. Myers, William Henry Brown, Alexander H. Hanson, Sir Reginald Newark, Viscount Bullard, Sir Harry Hardy, Laurence Nicol, Donald Ninian Burdett-Coutts, W. Heaton, John Henniker O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow) Helder, Augustus Pender, Sir James Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Penn, John Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Hickman, Sir Alfred Percy, Earl Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs. Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton) Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Hobhouse, Henry Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hornby, Sir William Henry Purvis, Robert Chelsea, Viscount Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Rankin, Sir James Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth) Howard, Joseph Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Howell, William Tudor Rentoul, James Alexander Coddington, Sir William Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Coghill, Douglas Harry Hudson, George Bickersteth Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir M. W. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Jenkins, Sir John Jones Round, James Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Royds, Clement Molyneux Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Kemp, George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Cripps, Charles Alfred Kenyon, James Samuel, Harry S (Limehouse) Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Kimber, Henry Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Cruddas, William Donaldson King, Sir Henry Seymour Scobel, Sir Andrew Richard Curzon, Viscount Lafone, Alfred Seely, Charles Hilton Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Laurie, Lieut.-General Sharpe, William Edward T. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr Denny, Colonel Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Simeon, Sir Barrington Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H. Skewes-Cox, Thomas Dorington, Sir John Edward Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand Doxford, William Theodore Leighton, Stanley Spencer, Ernest Drucker, A. Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Llewelyn, Sir D.- (Swansea) Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) Valentia, Viscount Wylie, Alexander Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe Wyndham, George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Stock, James Henry Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Stone, Sir Benjamin Wharton, Rt Hon. John Lloyd Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Whitmore, Charles Algernon Young, Commander (Berks, E. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm Younger, William Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Ox. Univ. Willox, Sir John Archibald Thorburn, Walter Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Tollemache, Henry James Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Usborne, Thomas Wrightson, Thomas NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Malley, William Allan, William (Gateshead) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) Asher, Alexander Harwood, George Palmer, G. Wm. (Reading) Ashton, Thomas Gair Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Paulton, James Mellor Barlow, John Emmott Hazell, Walter Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H. Pickard, Benjamin Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Hemphill, Rt Hon. Charles H. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lanc, S. W Birrell, Augustine Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Power, Patrick Joseph Blake, Edward Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Price, Robert John Broadhurst, Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed. Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.) Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea Rickett, J. Compton Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Burt, Thomas Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Buxton, Sydney Charles Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees). Caldwell, James Kitson, Sir James Schwann, Charles E. Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow Labouchere, Henry Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Cameron, Robert (Durham) Lambert, George Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) Causton, Richard Knight Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.) Cawley, Frederick Leng, Sir John Soames, Arthur Wellesley Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithnessshire Leuty, Thomas Richmond Souttar, Robinson Colville, John Lewis, John Herbert Spicer, Albert Condon, Thomas Joseph Lloyd-George, David Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. Logan, John William Steadman, William Charles Crombie, John William Lough, Thomas Stevenson, Francis S. Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Lyell, Sir Leonard Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Dalziel, James Henry MacAleese, Daniel Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Donnell, Dr. M. A (Queer's C. Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr Davit, Michael MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Trevelyan, Charles Philips Dewar, Arthur M'Crae, George Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Dillon, John M'Ewan, William Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Donelan, Captain A. M'Kenna, Reginald Weir, James Galloway Doogan, P. C. M'Laren Charles Benjamin Whiteley, George (Stockport) Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Leod, John Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) Dunn, Sir William Maden, John Henry Wills, Sir William Henry Ellis, John Edward Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.) Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W.R.) Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Evershed, Sydney Molloy, Bernard Charles Wilson, John (Falkirk) Farquharson, Dr. Robert Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Fenwick, Charles Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf. Flynn, James Christopher Morley, C. (Breconshire) Woods, Samuel Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Morris, Samuel Yoxall, James Henry Goddard, Daniel Ford Norton, Capt. Cecil William Gold, Charles Nussey, Thomas Willans TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Mr. Munro Ferguson and Sir Thomas Gibson-Car-michael Griffith, Ellis J. O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Oldroyd, Mark
Tithe Rent-Charge (Rates) Bill
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 2:—
On a point of order I desire to ask your ruling. My point is that this Bill does not comply with Standing Orders, and therefore I submit it ought not to be proceeded with. There can be no manner of doubt that it does not comply with the Standing Orders, and if we have such orders surely we ought to abide by them. I rely on Standing Order No. 45, which lays down very definitely that the precise duration of every temporary law shall be expressed in a distinct clause at the end of the Bill. Now this is certainly a Bill of a temporary nature, yet its precise duration is dealt with at the end of a clause which includes many other points. I know there is a precedent, and it is an unfortunate one—the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896.
I do not wish to express any opinion on this question, but it cannot be raised now.
Later on, then?
If the hon. Member presses for a decision I must tell him that I think the fact that the Bill has been read a second time has overcome any informality. The point should have been raised on the Second Reading.
But a Standing Order is a Standing Order.
The objection should have been taken when the Speaker was in the Chair. The question cannot be raised now.
Shall I be in order in raising it on Clause 4?
We had better proceed with the second clause.
At any rate, I will propose an Amendment.
As regards the Amendment of the Member for Lichfield, it appears to me to be a pure matter of form, and to have no substance in it.
My reason for putting down the Amendment is this—that the ingenuity of some lawyer might nullify the real object of the clause, and therefore if you put in some unnecessary words you may enable a lawyer to do something which is not contemplated by this House. I beg to move this Amendment. I do not think there is any harm in leaving out these words. I do not suppose that the Minister for Agriculture will approve of it, but I think the Amendment ought to be considered by the House.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 13, to leave out 'unless the context otherwise requires.'"—( Mr. Warner. )
Question proposed—
"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
These words are in the ordinary common form, and I hope the hon. Member will not persist in the Amendment.
It seems to me that these words should not be inserted. We are not all blessed with a legal education like the Solicitor-General. I contend that a Bill ought to be so drafted that the context should not be required to express its meaning. I am one of those who have often complained of Acts of Parliament being badly drafted, and I have sometimes difficulty in understanding them. Nor am I the only one in that position; for the principal duty of the lawyers is to argue with one another as to the meaning of Acts of Parliament. On the ground of simplicity of drafting, and for the benefit of people outside legal circles, I think the words should be left out.
They can do no harm.
This Bill is much more important than that one of its provisions should be justified on the ground that "it will do no harm." I hope the Bill is going to do some good and not harm.
I sympathise with the Solicitor-General in the line he has taken in saying that these words are in "common form," and that there is no reason against their being in the Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
The next Amendment on the Paper, which is in my name, is, in page 1, line 13, after "requires," to insert—
"The expression of 'conforming owner' shall mean owner who acts in strict confor- mity with the doctrines and principles of the Reformed Church of England."
The hon. Member knows that the Amendment which he had on the Paper the first day the Bill was in Committee was ruled out of order, and that this similar Amendment cannot possibly be in order.
Yesterday afternoon the First Lord of the Treasury, answering a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, said it was an extraordinary proposition to say that Scotland and Ireland had anything to do with this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman's meaning was perfectly plain—namely, that it would be from Ireland and Scotland that would come some of the money at least required by the Bill. When I listened to the right hon. the First Lord it occurred to me whether it was not possible that Scotland and Ireland were not even directly interested in this Bill, and that it was the duty of the representatives of Scottish and Irish constituencies to see that this Bill was limited entirely to England, and that it should by no possibility be applied to Scotland and Ireland. In looking over the Bill—and I believe that this Bill has been more closely scrutinised than any other during this session—I was surprised to find that there is not within its four corners one single word which expressly and specifically limits the application of the Bill to England. The object of the two Amendments which I have placed on the paper—both of which are in "common form" so much approved by the Solicitor-General, and therefore ought to commend themselves to him—is to make it perfectly plain that the Bill is limited to England only, and does not apply to Scotland or Ireland. The first Amendment I have put down is to define the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Bill. I propose to add words in Subsection 2 to the effect that "the expression 'The Local Taxation Account' shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888." Now, sir, I would first call the attention of the House to the Estate Duty Grant. The legal definition of the Estate Duty Grant is contained in the Finance Act of 1894, section 19, which is referred to in the Definition Clause proposed by the Government in this Bill. It says that in substitution for the grant of Probate Duties under certain named Acts—no reference is made to the grant out of the Local Taxation Account, 1894—a new grant is to be made called the Estate Duty Grant, and that grant is specifically stated to be "one sum." I direct the attention of hon. Members to the fact that the grant we are dealing with is "one grant"; it is declared by the Act of Parliament to be "one sum," not three separate sums—one sum which is to be paid under the provisions of three separate Acts of Parliament. Now, it is quite true that the Local Government Act of 1888 creates and defines for the purposes of that Act, and not, so far as I am aware, for any other purpose whatever, a Local Taxation Account; anti two other Acts of Parliament created two finance accounts, which were named "Local Taxation (Scotland) Account," and "Local Taxation (Ireland) Account," for the purposes of those Statutes respectively. There are, therefore, three Taxation Accounts, and what we want to make perfectly clear is, that the account from which the money is to come for the purposes of this Bill is the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is a matter we are entitled to demand on the score of ordinary decencies of Parliamentary draftsmanship; on the score of its being ordinary "common form," to which the Solicitor - General attaches so much importance. This is not the first time the Government has dealt with the Local Taxation Account. In the year 1896 they passed an Act—the Agricultural Rates Act—in which they dealt with the Local Taxation Account, although that Act was clearly and expressly limited to England—while this Act is not limited to England by any single word—by an express provision in the Act itself and in the title of the Act, in accordance with loyalty to "common form" to which the Solicitor-General professes so much attachment. The Government proposed, in the definition clause in the Act of 1896, that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is the very Amendment that I want to move in this Bill—that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning in this Bill as in the Local Government Act of 1888. I do this because I think it is perfectly necessary and proper to safeguard the other two Local Taxation Accounts, particularly inasmuch as the fund granted by the Finance Act of 1894 is declared to be "one sum," although there are three separate charges upon it. I would like to say a word about my other Amendment, because it is related to this one. I think both are necessary, but possibly one would be sufficient. The second Amendment I want to move is to include in the Title Clause of the Bill, which runs thus at present:—"This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1889," the words "and shall extend to England only." If the President of the Board of Agriculture or the Solicitor-General will tell me that they will accept the second Amendment, it may not be necessary to proceed with the first; although, if they accept either, there will be no difficulty about accepting both. At all events, it appears to me absolutely necessary, and I trust that "common form" will induce them to assent to one or other or both of the Amendments of which I have given notice. I cannot see how they can do otherwise. There is nothing in either of the Amendments against the principle of the Bill or against the course taken by the Government on a precisely similar occasion.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 13, after the word 'requires,' to insert the words, '(a) The expression "the Local Taxation Account" shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888.'"—( Mr. Edmund Robertson. )
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
I think I can satisfy my hon. and learned friend that both the Amendments are quite unnecessary, and that this Bill does not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but extends to England only. The Amendments are absolutely unnecessary, because there is no tithe rent-charge in Scotland; there are only teinds; and in Ireland there is now no tithe rent-charge attached to the benefice. So that in the very nature of things the Bill can only extend to England and Wales, and, therefore, the first Amendment is absolutely unnecessary, and will introduce words into the Bill which are not in the least necessary. The second Amendment is also not at all wanted. The Local Taxation Account is limited to England and Wales. If my hon. and learned friend will refer to Sections 20 and 21 of the Local Government Act of 1888, he will see that "Local Taxation Account" is the proper statutory title for England and Wales. The statutory titles of the Scottish and Irish Accounts are the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, and the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. I think my hon. and learned friend will see that both of his Amendments are unnecessary.
The Solicitor-General's explanation is the most extraordinary I have ever heard. Under the Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are ordered out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account on account of the Estate Duty Grant to pay one-half of the rates as the tithe. It may be that tithes only exist in England, but the Local Taxation Accounts for Scotland and Ireland are bound to contribute unless a distinction is drawn between the accounts of the three countries. That is perfectly obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General is going against the authority of his own Government. If there is the smallest foundation for what he has said, the insertion of the distinction in the Agricultural Rating Act is perfectly senseless. It was seen perfectly plainly in 1896 that it was necessary to state that the fund to be charged was the Local Taxation Account within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1888, and I would ask what objection there is now to make the thing clear? Let the Government say why they refuse to do now what they did in the case of the Act of 1896. I would like to hear from the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill why they refuse to give protection to Scotland and Ireland in the case of this Bill. The Bill in its general terms is equally applicable to England, Scotland, or Ireland. It is an extraordinary thing that Unionists should not know that. I should have thought it was a part of their education to learn that. The Opposition know perfectly well why the Government refuse to give any reason for their action. It is because they are afraid to have the Bill discussed.
The fact that the Government refuse to accept an Amendment does not prevent the Bill from being discussed. The right hon. Gentleman asked why the Government did not do in this Bill what was done in the Act of 1896. The answer I give is this: I have the greatest respect for the right hon. Gentleman's opinion, but when it conies to a question of legal interpretation I prefer to take the advice of my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General. My hon. and learned friend holds that there was no necessity for any additional words, and the Government agree with him. I have taken the very best advice before adopting the phraseology in the Bill, and I am advised that "the Local Taxation Account" is the statutory description of the account limited to England and Wales. If unnecessary words were put into the Act of 1896, surely that is no reason why it should be done now. There is not the smallest doubt as to the fund out of which the money is to come, and, therefore, the Government decline to accept the Amendment.
As an Irish Member, I must certainly rise to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. I do not think it is fair to leave it open to question in a court of justice as to whether the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account might not be encroached upon for the purpose of this Bill. To my knowledge there have been several cases of the judges of the Court of Appeal differing as to the construction of what were considered in this House as very clear words. That being the case I must, on behalf and in protection of the Irish Local Taxation Fund, beg the House to pass this Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. It is quite true that at present in Ireland there are no tithes attached to benefices, but tithes exist in Ireland as they always did, though they are now vested in a different body. But, as was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, the point is not whether tithe exists in Ireland; the point is whether the money which is taken by this Bill for the relief of the English parsons could possibly be taken out of the Irish Fund. That is what I want to make perfectly clear. As has been said—and it was obvious to everyone in this House—an Act of Parliament primâ facie applies to the three parts of the United Kingdom, and it requires express words to exclude Ireland or Scotland. The Local Taxation Account (Ireland) and the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) are all part and parcel of the Local Taxation Account. There is nothing in the wording of the Local Taxation Account to exclude Ireland or Scotland. Why leave it open to doubt? Is it for the mere purpose of procedure, or for the purpose of the carriage of this Bill through the House, in addition to all the powers of closure—closure of clauses and closure in every shape and form—that this Amendment is rejected? It cannot possibly do any harm. It may prevent the possibility of a mistake, and I think the Irish Members would be wanting in their duty if they did not, as far as in them lay, support this Amendment to make it clear that the Irish funds shall not be encroached upon for the benefit of the clergy.
What the Act of 1894 did was to substitute an entirely new procedure for that of 1888. In this case it is not a question from which of the Local Taxation Accounts this money is to be taken. What this Bill does is to take the money out of the precedent heap which is collected by the Exchequer before it is allocated to the Local Taxation Accounts at all. The sum which has to be passed is absolutely undetermined. It is true we have an estimate of £87,000, but that is a very uncertain estimate, and the whole amount is charged, not to the Local Taxation Account, but to the fund from which the three Local Taxation Accounts are fed. If that is so, it is very necessary to see that no part of that part of the Estate Duty which is devoted to the purposes of technical educations is diverted from its proper channel by this Bill. If there is no desire to avoid discussion on this measure, this is a case for avoiding ambiguity. Let us not have a Bill which is going to lead to lawsuits on matters like this, upon which your profession is that you are doing right and justice. Why cannot the Government accept these simple words? The reason they do not is not because they wish to avoid a discussion on the Report stage, because I do not think the Government would be paltry or mean enough to do such a thing as that. If I were in charge of a Bill, I should welcome anything that would make the Bill more certain in its operation, and I think in this case there is a very strong case made for the acceptance by the Government of this Amendment.
The hon. Gentleman says that this money is to be taken out of the sums payable to the Local Taxation Account. Now, there are three Local Taxation Accounts—for Ireland, and Scotland. We say this money should be taken out of "The Local Taxation Account," and that affects England and Wales only. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the matter might come into a court of law, but I do not see how it can possibly do so.
The Commissioners of Inland Revenue take the course the law prescribes, and that is the course they will take. It not only can be brought into a court of law, but will be. The opposition of the right hon. Gentleman is the most extraordinary I ever heard; it is perfectly plain that the interest of the English ratepayer is that he shall contribute as little as possible, and of course Ireland and Scotland must contribute their share from some source or other.
From what source?
Does the right hon. Gentleman say, where three people are required to pay, that one shall pay, but that he will not have a form by which the amount due from the other two should be collected? Here are three Statutory Accounts to pay for the endowment of the English clergy, and yet he says he will have no form by which to compel payment from two of them. I should say that outside the House of Commons the right hon. and learned Gentleman—
I should say out side the House what I have said here.
His learning and ingenuity would not fail him like this outside the House. I can understand why he was not anxious to speak upon this Bill. I agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that it is intended to pay this money out of the fund from which the Local Taxation Account is fed, and who can say what that money is? To say the least, that is a point that should be cleared up, and it would be very satisfactory if the Solicitor-General would explain to us why he put into the Agricultural Rating Act that particular clause.
I think it is desirable that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue should know where they are to get this money from. As this Bill, as I understood, was only to apply to England, I did not propose to interfere in this discussion; but now we have these very ambiguous words, I think some explanation is necessary. This ambiguity ought to be made clear. In the 22nd Clause of the Local Government Act the Commons were empowered to take four-fifths of one-half, and leave one-fifth undetermined, and that one-fifth was afterwards divided between Ireland and Scotland. But this is an interception of the money before it goes into any of these accounts. This amount is to be abstracted from the total sum, and a portion will have to be taken from the Irish and Scotch Local Taxation Accounts. It appears to me these are the facts of the case. If the words "Local Taxation Account" are to be retained, you should determine whether they refer to the Local Taxation Account created by the Local Government (England) Act, 1888. What we want is to make it perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account mentioned is the account created by that Act. Otherwise, it would be possible to take the amount required out of the whole sum. Indeed, it looks to me that the Bill as it at present stands would compel you to take the amount out of the whole sum. The Amendment makes it clear that the money is to be taken from the sum payable under the 22nd Clause of the Local Government (England) Act, 1888; and, unless it is inserted, the money can be taken from the whole amount contributed to the three funds.
I have scrupulously abstained from taking part in this Debate, for two reasons. Firstly, the Bill refers to the clergy of a different religion from my own, and I have no desire to interfere with the inner concerns of another creed. Up to this Amendment I had been under the impression that this Bill referred to England and to England alone. I have listened carefully to the discussion which has taken place, and I agree with the learned Serjeant on the Front Opposition Bench that the Bill in its present form is calculated to involve Irishmen. I candidly confess that I approach any financial Bill in which Ireland may be involved with a certain amount of perhaps undue and exaggerated apprehension. Every Irishman, irrespective of political parties, and almost without exception, is strongly of opinion that our country is seriously overtaxed. That opinion is backed by the Report of a Royal Commission mainly consisting of Englishmen, and in face of that Report we are still without any serious attempt to relieve us of this injustice. With this feeling and knowledge, we approach every financial Bill with the suspicion, and even the conviction, in our minds that our country is in some way or other cheated. That may be an unfair, but it is a strong suspicion. The second reason why I object to the clause is that this Bill is, for a good or a bad reason, going to add to the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England. We have no Church in Ireland endowed by a single penny of public money, and the policy has been laid down by successive Acts of Parliament that religious equality should be established by an absolute refusal to endow any Church. In face of that we are now presented with a Bill, one of the effects of which may be to tax our people in Ireland, who are mainly of a different religion, for the purpose of endowing the great, wealthy Protestant establishment of this country. You are asking a nation entirely free from establishment to contribute to the endowment of a Church which is Protestant and English. That appears to me to be an intolerable position. The case of the Government is that our apprehension is not justified, and that Ireland cannot be taxed under this Bill. In questions of finance and in the interpretation of statutes I have no right whatever to press my own opinion. But I have listened to this Debate, and when I find the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, who passed this Act, and the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who was his most constant, persistent, and able critic, in absolute agreement regarding the interpretation of this statute, what am I to do? If the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member who differed in every other respect in regard to this Bill, agree as to its interpretation in this particular, I, as a humble layman, must come to the conclusion that their opinion is more likely to be sound than not. Under these circumstances, a case is made out for doubt and ambiguity. All I can say is as a simple uninformed layman in financial matters that it appears to me that, if a certain amount is to be taken out of a common fund, each contributory to that fund is liable to pay a portion of that amount, and you cannot diminish the fund without diminishing the share of each member of it. Therefore, if you diminish this common fund by a contribution to the English Church, you thereby diminish that portion of the fund belonging to Ireland. All I am concerned to say is that either there is a case of ambiguity or there is not. Surely if there is not, Ireland ought to be relieved from the apprehension of being compelled to pay out of her poverty and Catholicity for the rich Protestant Church of England. Under these circumstances I hope the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment. As to the idea that you must pass this Bill in the exact words in which it was introduced in order to avoid another stage, my experience has always been that such attempts, like curses, come home to roost.
I cannot conceive any hon. Member, whether he be a friend or an opponent of the Bill, desiring that this money should to the slightest extent come from Scotch or Irish sources for the purpose of helping an arrangement with which neither Scotland nor Ireland has absolutely anything to do. It is perfectly clear from what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture and the Solicitor-General that there is distinct ambiguity with regard to this term in the Bill. It is perfectly true that a different form of words was adopted in 1896 from that we are now disscussing, but still there is a possibility that some ambiguity may arise in future which may have to be decided at very great cost and after very considerable delay by a court of law. The position with regard to the fund at the disposal of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may be compared to a great river which divides itself into three streams and forms a sort of delta. Eighty per cent. of the whole volume of water flows through one stream, 11 per cent. through another, and 9 per cent. through the third. What the supporters of this Bill desire to do is to intercept a certain portion of this volume of water for the purpose of irrigating one portion of the delta. In order to intercept the water it is necessary to construct a dam, and the question is whether it is to be constructed at a point above or below where the river divides itself into three streams. Obviously, if the water is intercepted above the dam, there is a possibility of the other channels running drier than before. What we want to know is the precise point where the dam is to be constructed, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to adopt some form of Amendment which will render any ambiguity absolutely impossible, and which will show in the clearest and most explicit language that he intends that the water shall be intercepted not above but below the point where the river divides itself. Should the right hon. Gentleman refuse to permit an Amendment of this kind at this stage, whatever air of injured innocence he may assume, the country will come to the conclusion that the object of the right hon. Gentleman is to prevent the possibility of time being spent on the Report stage, during which some of these matters might be put before the House and the country with even greater clearness than is possible at the present stage.
I should like some information, before I make up my mind upon this point, as to whether any of the sums coming to the Local Taxation Account are sums of money coming from Ireland or Scotland. If not, I cannot see what need there is for these arguments at all. If none of this money comes from Ireland or Scotland, this proposal cannot possibly make any difference to either of those countries. I desire to be assured that none of this money is payable to the Local Taxation Account out of the probate duties from Ireland or from Scotland. I know that under the Act of 1888 there are separate accounts for Ireland and Scotland, and I always was under the impression that special provision was made for Scotch and Irish accounts, and if these are really separate accounts and no money comes to this fund either from Ireland or Scotland which is paid into the Local Taxation Account, I really do not see what we are arguing about.
I am not sure that my right hon. friend was in the House when I referred to the section which deals with this question. The Local Taxation Account was established under the Local Government Act of 1888, which applies only to England and Wales. The 21st Section is the one which deals with the probate duty, to which the estate duty now corresponds. Under that section fourth-fifths of the probate duty has to be paid into the Bank of England to the Local Taxation Account, and that has to be done in the manner prescribed in the Act. That is the Local Taxation Account, and it is on that account that this Bill rests. The Probate Duties (Scotland and Ireland) Act was passed in 1888 also, and the first section of that Act provided for the opening of two perfectly separate and distinct accounts. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to this matter, and it is perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account relates to England, and to England alone. There are, therefore, three separate accounts. One is entitled the Local Taxation Account for England and Wales; the second is the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account for Scotland; and the third is the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, which relates to Ireland. These two accounts for Scotland and Ireland are established under the Act of 1888, to which I have already referred. The matter is perfectly clear, and I have listened with very great surprise to the doubts expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
I should like to know what are the suits that are going on every day against the Crown and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. The Solicitor-General has just made a most extraordinary statement.
The right hon. Gentleman must really forgive my interrupting him, but he is absolutely misinterpreting what I said. What I said was that the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that a court of law has authority to control the Crown in the conversion of the revenue. The court of law can decide as to whether different people should pay the revenue or not.
This is a most extraordinary statement to come from a Tory Solicitor-General, who, I believe, is probably a Liberal Unionist. But the right hon. Gentleman has not answered one question, which will really throw more light upon this matter than anything he has yet said, The right hon. Gentleman opposite was responsible for the drafting of the Agricultural Land Rating Act of 1896, and we all recollect how the Minister for Agriculture of that day was supported by him throughout all the discussions in this House.
I was not concerned in that measure.
At any rate we all recollect the personal and active part which was taken by the Solicitor-General in that discussion. Now, his argument is that when you use the words "Local Taxation Account" there cannot be the smallest doubt that that means the English account and no other. If that be so, then why did the hon. and learned Gentleman put these words into the Act of 1896:
"The expression 'Local Taxation Account' has the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888."
If it is so clear—and he has expressed his surprise that I should have entertained any doubt on the matter—what doubt was there in his mind which made it necessary for him to explain those words "Local Taxation Account," when he believes, as he has just stated, that they are absolutely unnecessary? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why he put in those words. He put them in because he knew that there was an ambiguity about the phrase "Local Taxation Account."
I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the Act of 1896, although, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, I took an active part in the discussion. I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the measure, and in my opinion these words are unnecessary.
It is a very remarkable thing, because that Act was drafted by one of the ablest men, who is now, unfortunately, not in the service of the Government. But he was a man who would not be likely to put in any un- necessary words. But whoever put in those words knew that, as there were three Local Taxation Accounts, to use the words "Local Taxation Account" was to use an ambiguous phrase. That was the reason why the words were inserted, for it was thought necessary and proper to clearly define the general phrase "Local Taxation Account" as meaning the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Act of 1888, which was the English Local Taxation Account. That is the reading of the Bill. It is perfectly obvious that this question might be raised in a court of law, and it is specified in the Agricultural Rating Act. In this Act, however, you have given no definition of the words, and, therefore, it will follow the general rule that as there is not the limitation which was put into the Act of 1896 it falls into the ordinary rule, that of an Act of Parliament which applies to all the countries alike; and there being three Local Taxation Accounts, and as you have made no specification as to which account is meant, as you thought it necessary to do in the Act of 1896, I certainly think that it is a reasonable argument to raise at this stage, and I would again ask the Government to reconsider their decision. When the Government were dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act these words were defined; and why is it not necessary to define them in this case? Why should the Government object to insert at the end of this Act the words, "this Act shall not apply to Ireland and Scotland," which would make the matter quite clear? It would be idle to pretend that the House of Commons and the country do not know why it is that you do not do this. What is the use of having all this argument upon this subject, for it simply amounts to this, that you refuse to do in 1899 what you did in 1896.
I rise not only for the purpose of answering the questions which have been put to me, but also to make an appeal to the House. It is idle and unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman opposite to say that the Government are resisting this Amendment because they do not desire to have a Report stage. If I may say so, with great respect, I think it is unnecessary to meet a statement of that kind at all. Our position is precisely the same position in which the right hon. Gentleman himself has repeatedly been placed, and if he comes into office he may find himself in that same position again. The Opposition hold that the words which have been proposed ought to be inserted. We hold, acting upon the best legal advice which we can command, that these words are superfluous and unnecessary. There is no mystery about this matter. The right hon. Gentleman asks why the definition was put in the Act of 1896 and is to be left out of the Act of 1899? I may say that in the original draft of the Bill those words were inserted, and they were afterwards taken out, but not for any evil or mysterious purpose. (Opposition cries of "What words?") Why, the words that it is now proposed to insert. There is absolutely nothing to conceal in this matter. The words were taken out of this Act because, as used in the Act of 1896, they were considered to be absolutely unnecessary and superfluous, and because it was thought that the words "Local Taxation Account" was a statutory and well-understood name of a fund which only applied to England; and, therefore, as this particular fund was not known by any other name, it was deemed unnecessary and undesirable to insert those words. There was no intention whatever of deceiving Parliament. The Ministers on this side of the House who are responsible, are satisfied that there is no necessity whatever for the insertion of those words, because the proposal, as it stands, conveys the necessary meaning; and because the Opposition take a different view we are accused of being unreasonable, and of desiring to avoid a Report stage simply because we will not allow hon. Gentlemen opposite to dictate to us what we shall do in regard to our own Bill. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite are really carrying their opposition to this Bill to a very unreasonable extent when they ask us to accept Amendments which are altogether unnecessary, and which the Opposition alone think are desirable. I do not think there is any reason for hon. Members to be alarmed at this proposal. My real object, however, in rising is that I desire to make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have a great many Amendments and new clauses still before us, and I have no doubt many hon. Members opposite desire to discuss them. I do, therefore, appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it is not now desirable that the Committee should be allowed to proceed at once to a Division upon this particular point. Every argument, I think, for and against has been fully and ably stated. The Government, at any rate, are certainly unconvinced, and they cannot agree to the introduction of this Amendment merely because it is harmless. Under these circumstances I think we might fight the point out now in the Division Lobby.
It appears to me that the confession contained in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered has destroyed absolutely the only remnant of objection which one could possibly have to the insertion of these words. The right hon. Gentleman tells us now that these words were before him in the original draft. That is to say the distinguished draftsman upon whom reliance has always been placed by this House thought that these words were necessary.
I beg the hon. Member's pardon, for the draftsman struck out the words himself.
That is another confession. We shall get at the real history of these words by-and-bye. I should like to know how the words came to be put in the draft at all if the draftsman himself took them out. I will go a step further and say that the great significance of this Debate is the stubborn resistance which the Government have offered to the words which were in the Bill originally, and which they have now confessed were harmless. I will not make any imputation as to the motive which induced them to offer this resistance, but I will go on and make a confession equally candid. I will admit, for my own part, that if the Government had not inserted those words in the Act of 1896, and if they had not defined these words in two previous Acts, I should not have thought it necessary to raise the question now; but when I find that in the Act of 1896 they thought it necessary to define the words by a special reference to a particular Act, and when four years afterwards they propose another Bill using the same words, but deliberately and for express purposes refuse to limit those words by inserting the same definition, there is certainly something very suspicious about the matter. The right hon. Gentleman him- self now admits that this Amendment is not unreasonable.
I admit nothing of the kind.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, but I will not press the matter an inch further. My object was to make it perfectly certain, according to the common forms followed by draftsmen who prepare the Bills for this House, that this Bill relates to England only. I told the right hon. Gentleman previously that if he would allow that common form to be added to the Bill applying it to England only, I should make no particular point about the Local Taxation Account, and I should be content with his declaration that the Act was to extend to England only. Reference has been made to Ireland. The Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill is now before the House, the Attorney-General for Ireland being responsible for it. That is a Bill in which it is made perfectly clear in the title and in every clause that you are dealing with the Irish Tithe Rent-charge in Ireland only, and there is not the faintest doubt about it. The Irish Attorney-General does not hesitate to use the ordinary common form, for the title clause runs:
"This Bill may be cited as the Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill, and shall extend to Ireland only."
I want corresponding words introduced into this Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman will promise to accept a similar definition clause my objection to the vagueness of his proposal will be entirely removed, and I shall not even advise my friends to go to a Division. If the right hon. Gentleman does not do this I am afraid we shall have to put hon. members to the trouble of another Division.
As a hearty supporter of this Bill, may I be allowed to make a suggestion to my right hon, friend in the interests of expedition? We have already spent about two hours upon this point, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to accept these words himself I desire to ask him if he will agree that they shall be introduced in another place; or, at any rate, will he promise to use the influence of the Government in that direction? It seems to me that that would meet the whole case. I do not myself agree that there is any real danger in this matter, and I merely rise in the hope that I may persuade my right hon. friend to get this difficulty out of the way.
I think the course of this discussion has shown quite clearly that even experts differ in their interpretation of these Statutes. But is there any wonder that we should be alarmed at this particular thing when we come to consider what will be the course of procedure in carrying out the enactments contained in the provisions of this Bill? The course of procedure will be that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be pressed, to use the words of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, to "create an interception," and this thing will all be settled behind the scenes, and it will be months, and perhaps even more than a year, after the money has all been paid away before we shall be able to find out in what proportion the distribution of the money has been made. It is not an extraordinary demand to make that this I question should be put beyond the region of doubt and controversy, which it is quite easy to do. In their proposal the Government, instead of inserting a reference which would have left no possibility of doubt as to the course of procedure which was to be adopted by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, depart altogether from the precedent of previous Acts of Parliament. Therefore it is natural that we should be doubtful and a trifle nervous when we see this departure from the ordinary procedure in previous Acts, and it is ridiculous for the Minister in charge of the Bill and the Solicitor-General to laugh at the doubts which arise in our minds, and to endeavour to make out that there is no danger whatever. What we are afraid of is very simply stated. It may be that a court of law, after careful investigation, would decide this matter on the lines laid down by the Solicitor-General, but it may mean that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may take a different view, and say that it was the meaning of the Statute that they should first of all take the Estate Duty Grant, which is made under that clause out of the £30,000 which is required by this Act, and then proceed to distribute that grant in the parishes which are laid down in the provisions of the Act, and which may be applied to England, Scotland, and Ireland. We have had to suffer more than once in the past from friendly calculations of this kind; and in this case it would not be a too friendly calculation, for the money does not get into the Treasury at all. The whole discussion is just another illustration of the inconvenience and objectionable character of the new finance— this system of interceptions of the taxpayers' money on its way to the Treasury. It must lead to the greatest possible misunderstanding and difficulty. At all events, it is perfectly clear that there is danger of an ambiguity and nothing that has been said by the Government affords any solid reason against the removal of that ambiguity by the insertion of the words of the Amendment.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 173. (Division List, No. 250.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Charrington, Spencer Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George' Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chelsea, Viscount Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Arnold, Alfred Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth Goulding, Edward Alfred Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Graham, Henry Robert Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Coddington, Sir William Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cohen, Benjamin Louis Greville, Hon. Ronald Bailey, James (Walworth) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gull, Sir Cameron Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Gunter, Colonel Baird, John George Alexander Compton, Lord Alwyne Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Balcarres, Lord Cook, Fred, Lucas (Lambeth) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Baldwin, Alfred Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D. Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W.(Leeds Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Hanson, Sir Reginald Banbury, Frederick George Cripps, Charles Alfred Hardy, Laurence Barnes, Frederic Gorell Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Helder, Augustus Barry, Rt Hn. A. H. S. (Hunts Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Henderson, Alexander Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r Cruddas, William Donaldson Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Bartley, George C. T. Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead) Barton, Dunbar Plunket Curzon, Viscount Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hobhouse, Henry Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow) Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hornby, Sir William Henry Beckett, Ernest William Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Howard, Joseph Beresford, Lord Charles Dorington, Sir John Edward Howell, William Tudor Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Doughty, George Hozier, Hn. James H. Cecil Biddulph, Michael Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hubbard, Hn. Evelyn Bigwood, James Doxford, William Theodore Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Bill, Charles Drucker, A. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Blundell, Colonel Henry Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Bond, Edward Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Jenkins, Sir John Jones Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fardell, Sir T. George Kemp, George Boulnois, Edmund Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Bousfield, William Robert Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc. Kenyon, James Brassey, Albert Finch, George H. Lafone, Alfred Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Brookfield, A. Montagu Fisher, William Hayes Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Bullard, Sir Harry Fison, Frederick William Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry Burdett-Coutts, W. Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Leighton, Stanley Butcher, John George Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swan'a Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Galloway, William Johnson Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Cavendish, R. F. (N.Lancs.) Gedge, Sydney Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gibbons, J. Lloyd Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liver'l) Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lorne, Marquess of Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Gilliat, John Saunders Lowe, Francis William Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Loyd, Archie Kirkman Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lubbock, Rt. Hn. Sir John Lucas-Shadwell, William Pierpoint, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Pilkington, R.(Lancs Newton) Stock, James Henry Macartney, W. G. Ellison Platt-Higgins, Frederick Strauss, Arthur Macdona, John Cumming Priestley, Sir W Overend (Edin. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley MacIver, David (Liverpool) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Maclean, James Mackenzie Purvis, Robert Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd U.) M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin. W.) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Thorburn, Walter Malcolm, Ian Rankin, Sir James Thornton, Percy M. Martin, Richard Buddulph Rentoul, James Alexander Tollemache, Henry James Melville, Beresford Valentine Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Tritton, Charles Ernest Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J. Ritche, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Valentia, Viscount Milner, Sir Frederick George Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wanklyn, James Leslie Milton, Viscount Round, James Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Milward, Colonel Victor Royds Clement Molyneux Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Monk, Charles James Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Whitmore, Charles Algernon Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.) Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Savory, Sir Joseph Willox, Sir John Archibald More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Momn'thsh. Seely, Charles Hilton Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath Morrison, Walter Seton-Karr, Henry Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Sharpe, William Edward T. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Muntz, Philip A. Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Wylie, Alexander Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Simeon, Sir Barrington Wyndham, George Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Myers, William Henry Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Newark, Viscount Spencer, Ernest Younger, William Nicol, Donald Ninian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Penn, John Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Percy, Earl Stephens, Henry Charles NOES. Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda) Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan Johnson-Ferguson, J. Edw. Allan, William (Gateshead) Davitt, Michael Joicey, Sir James Allison, Robert Andrew Dewar, Arthur Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea Ambrose, Robert Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jones, William (Carnarvonsh Asher, Alexander Dillon, John Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. Ashton, Thomas Gair Donelan, Captain A. Kearley, Hudson E. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Doogan, P. C. Kilbride, Denis Atherley-Jones, L. Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Duckworth, James Kitson, Sir James Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Dunn, Sir William Labouchere, Henry. Barlow, John Emmott Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Langley, Batty Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Evershed, Sydney Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Billson, Alfred Farquharson, Dr. Robert Leng, Sir John Birrell, Augustine Fenwick, Charles Leuty, Thomas Richmond Blake, Edward Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lewis, John Herbert Broadhurst, Henry Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lloyd-George, David Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Flynn, James Christopher Logan, John William Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Lough, Thomas Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry Lyell, Sir Leonard Burns, John Goddard, Daniel Ford Macaleese, Daniel Burt, Thomas Gold, Charles M'Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.) Buxton, Sydney Charles Gourley, Sir E. Temperley MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Caldwell, James Griffith, Ellis J. M'Crae, George Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Ewan, William Cameron, Robert (Durham) Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Ghee, Richard Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Kenna, Reginald Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Harwood, George M'Leod, John Causton, Richard Knight Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Maddison, Fred Cawley, Frederick Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Maden, John Henry Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C.H. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Clough, Walter Owen Hogan, James Francis Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Colville, John Holland, Wm. H. (York, W.R. Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Condon, Thomas Joseph Horniman, Frederick John Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Crombie, John William Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Morley, Chas. (Breconshire) Dalziel, James Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Morley, Rt. Hn. J.(Montrose) Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Rickett, J. Compton Wallace, Robert Moss, Samuel Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S. Moulton, John Fletcher Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Norton, Captain Cecil W. Robson, William Snowdon Weir, James Galloway Nussey, Thomas Willans Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Whiteley, George (Stockport) O'Brien, James F. C. (Cork) Schwann, Charles E. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wills, Sir William Henry Oldroyd, Mark Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B) Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) O'Malley, William Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.) Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R. Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Palmer, G. W. (Reading) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, John (Falkirk) Paulton, James Mellor Souttar, Robinson Wilson, John (Govan) Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Spicer, Albert Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') Pickard, Benjamin Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Steadman, William Charles Woods, Samuel Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lncs. S W) Stevenson, Francis S. Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Power, Patrick Joseph Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Yoxall, James Henry Price, Robert John Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Reckitt, Harold James Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford) Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 174; Noes, 250. (Division List, No. 251.)
AYES. Abraham, W. (Rhondda) Ellis, John Edward Logan, John William Allan, W. (Gateshead) Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Lough, Thomas Allison, Robert Andrew Evershed, Sydney Lyell, Sir Leonard Ambrose, Robert Farquharson, Dr. Robert Macaleese, Daniel Asher, Alexander Fenwick, Charles MacDonnell, Dr. (Queen's Co Ashton, Thomas Gair Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Asquith, Rt. Hon. H. Henry Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Crae, George Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Flynn James Christopher M'Dermott, Patrick Barlow, John Emmott Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) M'Ewan William Bayley, T. (Derbyshire) Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Ghee, Richard Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Leod, John Billson, Alfred Gold, Charles Maddison, Fred. Birrell, Augustine Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Maden, John Henry Blake, Edward Griffith, Ellis J. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe. Broadhurst, Henry Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson Haldane, Richard Burdon Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Bryce, Right Hon. James Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Buchanan, T. Ryburn Harwood, George Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthr. Burns, John Hayne, Rt Hn. Charles Seale- Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Burt, Thomas Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose) Buxton, Sydney Charles Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Caldwell, James Hogan, James Francis Moss, Samuel Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Holland, W. H. (York, W. R.) Moulton, John Fletcher Cameron, Robert (Durham) Horniman, Frederick John Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Hutton Alfred E. (Morley) Nussey, Thomas Willans Causton, Richard Knight Jacoby, James Alfred O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Cawley, Frederick Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Clough, Walter Owen Joicey, Sir James O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Colville, John Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Crombie, John William Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. Oldroyd, Mark Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Kearley, Hudson E. O'Malley, William Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Kilbride, Denis Dalziel, James Henry Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Kitson, Sir James Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Davitt, Michael Labouchere, Henry Paulton, James Mellor Dewar, Arthur Lambert, George Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Langley, Batty Pickard, Benjamin Dillon, John Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Donelan, Captain A. Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W Doogan, P. C. Leng, Sir John Power, Patrick Joseph Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Leuty, Thomas Richmond Price, Robert John Duckworth, James Lewis, John Herbert Reckitt, Harold James Dunn, Sir William Lloyd-George, David Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.) Steadman, William Charles Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) Rickett, J. Compton Stevenson, Francis S. Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.) Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh. Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, John (Govan) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough) Schwann, Charles E. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf. Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wallace, Robert Woods, Samuel Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Yoxall, James Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint) Weir, James Galloway Soames, Arthur Wellesley Whiteley, George (Southport) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Souttar, Robinson Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur. Spicer, Albert Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Wills, Sir William Henry NOES. Allsopp, Hon. George Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hanson, Sir Reginald Archdale, Edward Mervyn Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hardy, Laurence Arnold, Alfred Colston, Chas. Edw. H.Athole Heaton, John Henniker Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Compton, Lord Alwyne Helder, Augustus Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Henderson, Alexander Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Cotton-Jodrell,Col. Edw. T.D. Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead Baird, John George Alexander Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Balcarres, Lord Cripps, Charles Alfred Hobhouse, Henry Baldwin, Alfred Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Cruddas, William Donaldson Hornby, Sir William Henry Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Banbury, Frederick George Curzon, Viscount Howard, Joseph Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dalrymple, Sir Charles Howell, William Tudor Barry, Rt Hn A. H Smith-(Hunts Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor) Denny, Colonel Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Bartley, George C. T. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Barton, Dunbar Plunket Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Dorington, Sir John Edward Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Doughty, George Jenkins, Sir John Jones Beach, W. W. B. (Hants) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Beckett, Ernest William Doxford, William Theodore Kemp, George Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Drucker, A. Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Beresford, Lord Charles Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Kenyon, James Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Kimber, Henry Biddulph, Michael Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lafone, Alfred Bigwood, James Fardell, Sir T. George Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Bill, Charles Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry Blundell, Colonel Henry Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir, J. (Manc'r Leighton, Stanley Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Finch, George H. Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Boulnois, Edmund Fisher, William Hayes Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Bousfield, William Robert Fison, Frederick William Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Brassey, Albert Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Brookfield, A. Montagu Galloway, William Johnson Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Bullard, Sir Harry Gedge, Sydney Lorne, Marquis of Burdett-Coutts, W. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lowe, Francis William Butcher, John George Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lucas-Shadwell, William Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Gilliat, John Saunders Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Cavendish,V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Macartney, W. G. Ellison Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Macdona, John Cumming Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's MacIver, David (Liverpool) Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Maclean, James Mackenzie Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Graham, Henry Robert Malcolm, Ian Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Martin, Richard Biddulph Charrington, Spencer Greville, Hon. Ronald Melville, Beresford Valentine Chelsea, Viscount Gull, Sir Cameron Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Clare, Octavius Leigh Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J. Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Mildmay, Francis Bingham Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Milner, Sir Frederick George Coddington, Sir William Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Milton, Viscount Coghill, Douglas Harry Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Milward, Colonel Victor Monk, Charles James Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxford Uni. Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Thorburn, Walter Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney) Thornton, Percy M. More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Round, James Tollemache, Henry James Morgan, Hn. F. (Monmouthsh.) Royds, Clement Molyneux Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray Morrison, Walter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Tritton, Charles Ernest Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse) Valentia, Viscount Muntz, Philip A. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wanklyn, James Leslie Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Savory, Sir Joseph Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Seely, Charles Hilton Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd Myers, William Henry Seton-Karr, Henry Whitmore, Charles Algernon Newark, Viscount Sharpe, William Edward T. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm. Nicol, Donald Ninian Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Willox, Sir John Archibald Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Simeon, Sir Barrington Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Penn, John Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Percy, Earl Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander Pierpoint, Robert Spencer, Ernest Wyndham, George Pilkington, R. (Lancs Newton) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Sir H. M.(Lambeth) Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Younger, William Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stephens, Henry Charles Purvis, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Stock, James Henry Sir William Walrond and Mr Anstruther Rankin, Sir James Strauss, Arthur Rentoul, James Alexander Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name to leave out Subsection ( a ). I do not feel that there is any reason whatever, after what has been said, why that sub-section should appear in the Bill at all. The meaning of the Estate Duty Grant is perfectly clear, and I do not think any object can be served by the insertion of the words contained in the sub-section. I therefore move that the sub-section be omitted.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 14, to leave out Sub-section ( a )."—( Mr. J. H. Roberts. )
Question proposed, "That Sub-section ( a ) stand part of the clause."
The Government cannot accept the Amendment, because we regard the words as absolutely necessary
I do not see that these words are necessary at all. There is only one Estate Duty Grant, and the Commissioners can, without the aid of any interpretation clause, see exactly what the meaning is.
I have a similar Amendment on the Paper, and I think, therefore, I ought to state why I put it there. It seems to me that the simplest way would have been not to have a separate sub-section in the definition clause of the Bill, but simply to have said, "Given under Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1894" at the end of Clause I, It only makes the Bill more difficult for the layman to understand to retain the words as they stand now. I certainly do not see the necessity for this subsection, and I shall certainly support my hon. friend's Amendment.
Question put, and agreed to.
The Amendment which I wish to move is to leave out from "curacies" in Clause 2, Section 2, page 1, line 18, to end of sub-section. The effect of my Amendment will be to withdraw from the operation of this Bill two or three distinct classes of benefices—first, parochial chapelries; secondly, chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel; and, thirdly, districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by statute. I think there is by this time no doubt that whatever the attitude of the Government as to this Bill may be, the real reason for its introduction is the peculiar position of the clergy in regard to their incomes. It is on account of the smallness of their incomes that this Bill has been introduced. That this Bill is only a temporary Bill—to last for two and a half years—is proof, of that contention, and the reading of the evidence placed before the Royal Commission on the subject confirms that view in the most ample manner. I think I am therefore justified in laying down that this Bill is intended for the relief of those clergy in the country who depend entirely upon the proceeds of the tithe rent-charge, and my Amendment stands or falls upon that point, namely, whether they derive their income substantially from that source or not. I have taken the trouble to go through an interesting Return upon this subject which was furnished to this House in 1891. It gives full information as to the districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes during the years 1880 and 1890. I am not going to weary the Committee with statistics and figures from this Return, but I should like to point out that any hon. Member may find out for himself, if he studies this Return, that, so far as the majority of these districts are concerned, the tithe rent-charge assigned to them is of the smallest dimensions. When the income of the clergy from endowment is, on the average, from £300 to £500, and when the tithe rent-charge is only £10, £20, or £30, is it just or right that the same relief in regard to the rating should be applied? I further wish to call attention to one phrase in this section which seems to me to require some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I should like to know what is the meaning of the phrase "and chapelries or districts belonging or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel." It passes my comprehension to understand how it is desirable or necessary to introduce into a section of this kind words of that character.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 18, to leave out from the word 'curacies,' to the end of paragraph ( b )."—( Mr. J. H. Roberts. )
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
I hope the Committee will retain these words. The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is really in substance an attempt to undo a great part of what the Committee has already decided upon under the first clause—namely, that certain relief shall be given in the case of tithe rent-charge attached to benefices. The Amendment will, in fact, eviscerate that clause.
Will the Solicitor-General explain the concluding words of the section, relating to benefices under the patronage of the Crown?
These words are merely put in on the principle that an Act of Parliament does not apply to the Crown unless the Crown is expressly mentioned.
I rise for the purpose of drawing the attention of the Solicitor-General to the fact that he has not replied to the most important part of the case put forward by my hon. friend. I would especially draw his attention to the words "and districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by virtue of statutory authority." The question was put earlier in this Debate to the Government whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were or were not to derive any benefit under this Bill. I remember the question being put very well, and I remember the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. It was denied that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to derive any benefit whatever under this Bill. What have the Ecclesiastical Commissioners been doing, and what are they doing continually? They are forming new districts for ecclesiastical purposes, and those districts are being formed by virtue of statutory authority. But what will happen in the future with regard to those districts? They will simply have a further endowment of 10 per cent. paid out of the funds of the nation, in addition to the endowment which they will get if they annex any tithe in their possession to the benefice. I daresay hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to have a further endowment of the Church of England in that particular way.
Districts are, of course, formed in the way mentioned by the hon. Member, and they may remain districts for some time without becoming parishes. If they have tithes annexed to them and endowments derived from them, then it is proper that the benefits of this provision should be extended to such cases.
I object to the words in question, because they will enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to attach a very large extent of tithe rent-charge to new districts, which they will undoubtedly form as soon as they possibly can.
I do not wish to detain the Committee for more than a moment, but there is in line 20 a phrase which is not quite clear to the lay mind. I would like to ask the meaning of the word "reputed" to belong. It is used in two distinct places—"Chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed or reputed to be annexed to any church or chapel." If a thing belongs to any church or chapel it does belong to it, but surely you need not bring in under this Bill any thing "reputed" to belong.
A question might arise as to the precise extent of the Common Law right, and this is intended to make the matter quite clear.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between "belonging to" and "annexed to"?
"Belonging to" means that which was given to the benefice when it was formed, "annexed to" that which was given afterwards.
The interpretation put upon this clause by the Solicitor-General raises a very important point. It is to be extended to chapelries belonging to or reputed to belong to any church or chapel. A new district is formed and a chapel is endowed, that is, a certain sum is put aside for its use, and then comes the question as to how that money is going to be invested. The trustees come to the conclusion that they will invest the money in tithe rent-charge in the hands of the lay impropriator. The question is, is such a transaction within the Act? If it is, it raises a most important point. Suppose you purchase the tithe rent-charge 100 miles away; directly you do so that tithe rent-charge is equal to a £50 endowment to the chapel, which is equivalent to adding £2,000 to the endowment. I should like to know if I am correct in my interpretation of the clause. Instead of the whole of the money being handed over to the church, it might be divided between the church and the lay impropriator. The lay impropriator might say, "You benefit to the extent of £50 a year, therefore I am going to put another £1,000 on to the price."
I doubt whether that question is relevant to the matter before the House, but I will answer it nevertheless. If a certain sum of money is invested for the endowment of an existing vicarage or of a new district, it is not subject to rates. The whole injustice is this, that, where a benefice is endowed with tithes, rates are charged. If you have £1,000 which you wish to give to a church and it is invested in Consols or some other stock, no rates are charged. Therefore nothing is gained by buying tithe rent-charge from the lay impropriator. The same value is obtained, only it did not become subject to rates. The amount obtained is not altered by changing the form of investment. I think the question has a very remote reference to the subject before us.
Then I understand the answer is in the affirmative.
The hon. and learned Member understands that perfectly well.
I am glad to have that admission. I think it raises a very important point. The hon. Gentleman does not challenge the argument I laid down, which is that a sum of money may be collected in Liverpool or Newcastle; if, instead of investing it in Consols, you invest it in tithes in a parish 300 miles away, you can arrange a deal with the lay impropriator by which you can give £3,000 for a thing only worth £2,000, and say, we do not mind giving you the £1,000 because we make £1,000, and the money after all will come out of the ratepayers. This is done under a Bill the object of which is right and justice. This measure will lend itself to transactions little short of fraudulent.
If the Solicitor-General is correct, will not this Bill not only have the effect of relieving the clerical tithe-owners of half their rate, but increasing the value of tithes generally?
I do not see how that arises on the question of the definition of the words proposed to be left out.
I wish to put a specific instance which arises on the Amendment of my hon. friend. I have in my mind a parish with a chapelry endowed with £10,000 by the mother of the lay impropriator. I wish to know whether it is possible and how the Government proposes to meet a case in which by arrangement between the parties the lay tithe may be made free to the extent of one-half of the rates. The Government have admitted over and over again that the lay tithes have been omitted from the Bill because they could not, in justice, be included in it; but there are cases in which the lay tithe-owners will be largely benefited under this Bill, and nothing can be done to prevent it.
I do not see that the case the hon. Gentleman refers to would be met by the omission of the words now before the Committee.
If these words are omitted the specific transaction to which I referred would not be possible under the Bill. I want to know what guarantee there is that justice will be done by the action the Government are taking.
The endowment to which the hon. Member referred can be made applicable to special curacies, which has already been passed.
Before you put the Question, Sir, I should like to know whether you rule that upon the Amendment of my hon. friend we are not entitled to discuss the effect which this definition clause will have if passed in its present shape on what I might call future annexations of tithe rent-charge, which do not at present exist. In my judgment it is a question of great importance, but I do not want to be out of order in discussing it.
I think the matter has already been discussed. It was discussed on an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Merthyr to insert the words "attached to," and it was admitted that "attached to" would cover future cases.
Upon a point of order, Sir, I moved the Amendment, but I never raised that point at all, Sir.
It is perfectly true that the hon. Member did not raise the point, but other hon. Members did, and discussed it for a considerable period. The matter was fully gone into
Would it not be in order to discuss the point in connection with the endowment of chapelries which are freshly endowed? I propose to confine myself to that point.
The difficulty in the way of the hon. Member is that it was discussed in the previous Amendment to which I referred.
I do not understand you to rule, Sir, that it is absolutely out of order, though I quite see the difficulty; but it is really a most important point, and one upon which I desire to have your ruling particularly.
In my opinion the case has been discussed and decided when the Committee decided that the words "attached to" should remain in the Bill. I do not think the question can be raised again on this Amendment.
You have referred, Sir, to the Amendment I moved on Monday last, but I did not raise this point, and it does seem a little hard upon me that, because some discussion which was evidently out of order took place on that occasion, I should now be said to have raised the discussion.
The hon. Member chose to raise the same point by moving his Amendment, and there was consider- able discussion on the point If my recollection serves me correctly, there was a long discussion on it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 252.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Dorington, Sir John Edward Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doughty, George Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a Arnold, Alfred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R. Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, William Theodore Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Drucker, A. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Balcarres, Lord Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Baldwin, Alfred Fardell, Sir T. George Lorne, Marquess of Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Lowe, Francis William Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir, J. (M'nc'r Loyd, Archie Kirkman Banbury, Frederick George Finch, George H. Lucas-Shadwell, William Barnes, Frederic Gorell Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Barry, R. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hnt Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macartney, W. G. Ellison Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool) Bartley, George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Maclean, James Mackenzie Barton, Dunbar Plunket FitzWygram, General Sir F. M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'gh,W. Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Flower, Ernest Malcolm, Ian Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Galloway, William Johnson Melville, Beresford Valentine Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Gibbons, J. Lloyd Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J. Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Giles, Charles Tyrrell Mildmay, Francis Bingham Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gilliat, John Saunders Milner, Sir Frederick George Beresford, Lord Charles Godson, Sir A. Frederick Milton, Viscount Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Milward, Colonel Victor Biddulph, Michael Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon Monk, Charles James Bigwood, James Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Bill, Charles Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred More, Robt. Jasper (Shopshire) Bond, Edward Graham, Henry Robert Morgan, Hn, Fred (Monm'thsh. Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Bousfield, William Robert Gretton, John Muntz, Philip A. Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Greville, Hon. Ronald Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gull, Sir Cameron Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Brookfield, A. Montagu Gunter, Colonel Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Bullard, Sir Harry Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Newark, Viscount Burdett-Coutts, W. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Nicol, Donald Ninian Butcher, John George Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. Penn, John Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hanson, Sir Reginald Percy, Earl Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.) Hardy, Laurence. Pierpoint, Robert Cayzer, Sir Charles William Heaton, John Henniker Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton) Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Helder, Augustus Platt-Higgins, Frederick Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Henderson, Alexander Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.) Chamberlain, J. A. (Wor'cr.) Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Purvis, Robert Charrington, Spencer Hobhouse, Henry Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Chelsea, Viscount Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow) Rankin, Sir James Clarke, Sir Ed. (Plymouth) Hornby, Sir William Henry Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E. Howard, Joseph Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W. Coddington, Sir William Howell, William Tudor Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Coghill, Douglas Harry Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Round, James Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Royds, Clement Molyneux Compton, Lord Alwyne Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Russell, T. W.(Tyrone) Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Kemp, George Savory, Sir Joseph Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley, W Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Seely, Charles Hilton Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Kenyon, James Seton-Karr, Henry Cripps, Charles Alfred Kimber, Henry Sharpe, William Edward T. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) King, Sir Henry Seymour Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lafore, Alfred Simeon, Sir Barrington Curzon, Viscount Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'l) Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand Davies, Sir Hon. D. (Chatham Lea, Sir Thomas (Lodonderry Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Denny, Colonel Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Leighton, Stanley Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Stock, James Henry Tritton, Charles Ernest Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Strauss, Arthur Valentia, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wanklyn, James Leslie Wylie, Alexander Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent Wyndham, George Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Ox'd Univ. Whitmore, Charles Algernon Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Thorburn, Walter Williams, J. Powell-(Birm'g'm. Younger, William Thornton, Percy M. Willox, Sir John Archibald TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Tollemache, Henry James Wilson, John (Falkirk) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath NOES. Abraham William (Rhondda) Gold, Charles Oldroyd, Mark Allan, William (Gateshead) Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Malley, William Allison, Robert Andrew Griffith, Ellis J. Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) Ambrose, Robert Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading) Asher, Alexander Haldane, Richard Burdon Paulton, James Mellor Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.) Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Harwood, George Pickersgill, Edward Hare Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W Barlow, John Emmott Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H Power, Patrick Joseph Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Price, Robert John Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Randell, David Blake, Edward Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Reckitt, Harold James Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E. Broadhurst, Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Robertson, E. (Dundee) Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. Robson, W. Snowdon Bryce, Right Hon. James Joicey, Sir James Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire Schwann, Charles E. Burns, John Kearley, Hudson, E. Scott, C. Prestwich (Leigh) Buxton, Sydney Charles Kilbride, Denis Shaw, C. E. (Stafford) Caldwell, James Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Cameron, Sir Chas.(Glasgow) Kitson, Sir James Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Labouchere, Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint) Causton, Richard Knight Lambert, George Soames, Arthur Wellesley Cawley, Frederick Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Souttar, Robinson Clough, Walter Owen Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Spicer, Albert Colville, John Leng, Sir John Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Steadman, William Charles Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Stevenson, Francis S. Crombie, John William Logan, John William Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lough, Thomas Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacAleese, Daniel Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Dalziel, James Henry M'Arthur, William(Cornwall) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Crae, George Trevelyan, Charles Philips Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Dermott, Patrick Wallace, Robert Dillon, John M'Ewan, William Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds,S.) Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Warner, Thomas C. T. Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Weir, James Galloway Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred Whiteley, George (Stockport) Dunn, Sir William Maden, John Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Williams, John C. (Notts.) Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) Evershed, Sydney Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r Wilson, J.(Durham, Mid.) Farquharson, Dr. Robert Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, John (Govan) Fenwick, Charles Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose) Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Huddsfld) Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woods, Samuel Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Moss, Samuel Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Flynn, James Christopher Norton, Capt. Cecil William Yoxall, James Henry Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Mr. Herbert Roberts and Mr. Lloyd-George. Goddard, Daniel Ford T. P. O'Connor, (Liverpool)
I quite recognise that the second part of the Amendment I have on the Paper is not now in order, but the first part is. The object of that part is to limit as far as possible the extent of the Bill. The Committee have already decided that incumbents presented to a living after the passing of the Act should receive the benefit, but they have not yet decided or discussed whether those who have been recently presented should receive the benefit of the Bill. I should like to limit it to those who have been presented to livings since the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, and before the passing of the present Act. In my mind they are the only ones who can have had their expectations aroused of having half their rates paid. There can be no kind of sense of grievance with the rest, and therefore I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 25, to leave out paragraph ( c ) of Sub-section 1, and insert the words, 'The expression "owner," means the incumbent in receipt of the tithe rent-charge at the date of the passing of this Act.'"—( Mr. David Thomas. )
Question proposed, "That paragraph ( c ), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."
I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mean seriously to press this Amendment; if he does, I hope the Committee will reject it, because it proposes to reverse the decisions of other stages of the proceedings. We are asked to limit the clause to incumbents now in possession of their benefices; but if this Act comes into force the same rule ought to apply to the new incumbent as to the old.
I cannot allow this opportunity to go by without protesting against the "legislation by reference" that we see in this particular sub-section. We are told that the expressions "owner of tithe rent-charge" and "tithe rent-charge" have the same meanings respectively as in the Tithe Act of 1891. When that Act is turned up it is found that a reference is made to the Tithe Act of 1836, so that to find out the meaning of these terms the Act of 1836 has to be consulted. This is a question in which not only lawyers but laymen are becoming increasingly concerned. If the Government introduce measures of this kind they ought to make them plain and simple to the ordinary intelligence. The country lawyer has to have his shelves stacked with volumes of old statutes, or else he is unable to explain to his clients what the meaning of such a section is. The very least the Government could have done would have been to refer people, not to the Act of 1891, but to the Act of 1836. I feel so strongly upon this subject that unless I receive a satisfactory explanation why the clause has been so drawn I shall feel compelled to go to a Division.
As a matter of fact, in the Tithe Act of 1891, Sec. 9, you are referred not merely to the Tithe Act of 1836 but to the Extraordinary Tithe Redemption Act of 1836, and to the Tithe Act of 1860, so that you have to refer to four Acts of Parliament before you can get a definition. This kind of drafting ought to come to an end. It lends some colour to the allegation which is sometimes made by people who do not know any better that Acts of Parliament are drafted in an obscure way for the benefit of the lawyers. You can explain in a few plain words what is meant by these terms, but instead of that a person is referred from Act of Parliament to Act of Parliament, and he is a very wise man who after consulting them can come to any definite conclusion at all. With regard to the substance of the Amendment, I exonerate the mover entirely from having supported an Amendment of mine which was the converse of this; I believe he voted against it. But we cut the Bill into two parts—those referring to past and future. If we could get rid of the benefits proposed to be given to those who lived in the past we should be very pleased, but if we could cut off the benefits from those who live in the future we should be, perhaps, still more pleased. I shall, therefore, with a perfectly clear conscience support the Amendment.
As far as I understand, the only reason why we are asked to support this Bill at all is in order to do some sort of justice to these people who have suffered so much in the past. If that is so, there is no reason whatever why we should confer any benefits upon future incumbents. They will then know perfectly well that they will not get any benefit, and therefore they will have no grievance on the ground that they are under a disadvantage as compared with those appointed before the passing of the Act. Consequently I shall vote for the Amendment.
The desire to have Acts of Parliament clear to the common understanding is one that I hold very dear indeed. I am delighted to have the opportunity of appealing once more to Her Majesty's Government to take the advice which I have so often said has been given to them by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. Lord Salisbury has declared that the method of drafting Acts of Parliament was extremely repugnant to him, and he has made a promise, which I hope he will some day fulfil, of bringing in a Bill which should put an end to this mischief. Year after year we pass Acts of Parliament which necessitate references ad nauseam to former Acts, and I hope that these few words of mine may fall upon some good ground—if not on the Treasury bench, then elsewhere—and that my heart may be gladdened some day or other by this advice being taken.
I am somewhat curious to know how the element of justice can possibly come into the discussion of this Amendment. It may be argued that in some way those who have property in tithe rent-charge are suffering from some injustice, and that that injustice ought to be removed. But how can it be argued with regard to men who are in the future to be presented to benefices that there can be any injustice in leaving matters as they are? According to the law, of this property a portion will be given to the gentlemen who occupy the offices, and another portion will go in payment of rates. If these gentlemen do not choose to take the proportion which the present law gives them, they have no need to take the office; and if they take the office, how can it be said that there is any injustice in their emoluments being limited to those attached to the office? Therefore the element of justice does not come in. But what does come in? What comes in is this—that it is desired by Her Majesty's Government to give additional endowments to these offices, so that the gentlemen who are advanced to them will find they are advanced to offices with larger endowments than they have to-day. The First Lord of the Treasury in the earlier part of the discussion made an appeal which ought to come with great weight to any man who desires to be at all fair-minded, and that was that all these old quarrels should be ended and forgotten. How can we expect that old quarrels will be ended and forgotten when Her Majesty's Government go to Dissenters, and to those who profess no religion at all, and say to both, "You must and shall make a contribution for the increase of the endowments of the Church of England"?
The hon. Member is making a statement which dangerously approaches a speech applicable to the Second Reading.
I am extremely glad it only dangerously approaches, and I will try to steer farther from that point. If this Bill be founded on justice I might argue that at least justice was not involved in the proposal which the Amendment suggests should be left out, inasmuch as it would affect gentlemen who at present have no manner of interest in the property in question. As a Nonconformist, I should be only too delighted to see these quarrels forgotten. But if those quarrels cannot be forgotten, the fault lies with those who insist on keeping them open by measures of this kind.
With regard to this increasing difficulty of interpreting Acts of Parliament owing to "legislation by reference," I believe the Incorporated Law Society had the matter under their consideration for several sessions and sent appeals to the Government. Those appeals have been considered by the Solicitor-General, who has replied in formal words, but he is too busily engaged in endowing the clergy to attend to the far more important point of simplifying some of these Acts of Parliament. Lawyers themselves are complaining about it, and the difficulty, great as it is now, will be increased by means of an Act like this, which legislates by reference to four or five other very complicated Acts. I have another objection to this sub-section, and that is the interpretation sought to be applied to the words "owner of tithe rent-charge." I really believe that if the words of the Tithe Act of 1891 had been incorporated in this Bill it would have struck even Members on the other side of the House as being an extraordinarily unfair proposition. What is the interpretation there? It is that if the tithe rent-charge is vested in the Queen in right of her Crown, "owner" means "the Commissioners of Woods" in substitution for the Queen. What on earth have the Com- missioners of Woods to do with the relief which is to be granted to the clergy in respect of rates which are pressing heavily upon them? Surely they cannot complain that they are suffering. What is the second definition? It is that where the ownership is vested in the Duke of Cornwall it means the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall in substitution for the Duke of Cornwall. Who is the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? What are the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? We ought to have another definition, explaining what the Duchy of Cornwall is and what its limits are. Why should a grant be made to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall and the Commissioners of Woods, in a Bill for the relief of the distress of the clergy? They have absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. The whole of that definition clause is confined to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall, and we are asked to make a grant to those gentlemen under the Bill.
Nonsense!
What does it mean, then? If it is nonsense, it is nonsense which is introduced by the right hon. Gentleman himself.
I withdraw the word "nonsense," but it was drawn from me by the statement that we propose to give this grant to these various people. The grant is expressly given, in clear terms in the Bill, in respect of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and clearly such tithe rent-charge is not enjoyed by Her Majesty's Commissioners.
Then if that is the case, what on earth do these words mean? This Bill is really a very stupid Bill. We have already decided that we will pay half the rates of the clerical owners of tithe rent—
I move that the Question be now put.
That is the best answer the right hon. Gentleman can give me!
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 187 Noes, 107. (Division List, No. 253.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Fardell, Sir T. George Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Arnold, Alfred Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Finch, George H. Balcarres, Lord Charrington, Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Clare, Octavius Leigh Firbank, Joseph Thomas Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth) Fisher, William Hayes Barnes, Frederic Gorell Coddington, Sir William Flower, Ernest Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- Coghill, Douglas Harry Gibbons, J. Lloyd Bartley, George C. T. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) Barton, Dunbar Plunket Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Giles, Charles Tyrrell Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Compton, Lord Alwyne Gilliat, John Saunders Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Godson, Sir Augustus F. Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D. Goldsworthy, Major-General Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Gordon, Hon. John Edward Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St Geo.'s Biddulph, Michael Cubitt, Hon. Henry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Bigwood, James Curzon, Viscount Goulding, Edward Alfred Blundell, Colonel Henry Dalrymple, Sir Charles Graham, Henry Robert Bolton, Thomas Dolling Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Green, Walford D. (Wed'bury Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Denny, Colonel Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Bousfield, William Robert Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hanson, Sir Reginald Brookfield, A. Montagu Dorington, Sir John Edward Heaton, John Henniker Bullard, Sir Harry Doughty, George Henderson, Alexander Burdett-Coutts, W. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter Butcher, John George Doxford, William Theodore Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol) Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbys.) Drucker, A. Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead) Cayzer, Sir Charles William Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas Hobhouse, Henry Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Monk, Charles James Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh.) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Howell, William Tudor Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Morrell, George Herbert Stock, James Henry Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Strauss, Arthur Jebb, R. Claverhouse Muntz, Philip A. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Jenkins, Sir John Jones Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Kemp, George Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Thorburn, Walter Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J.H. Nicol, Donald Ninian Thornton, Percy M. Kenyon, James O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Tollemache, Henry James. Kimber, Henry Penn, John Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray King, Sir Henry Seymour Percy, Earl Tritton, Charles Ernest Lafone, Alfred Pierpoint, Robert Valentia, Viscount Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton) Wanklyn, James Leslie Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Llewellyn, E.H.(Somerset) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.) Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin. Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Willox, Sir John Archibald Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Purvis, Robert Wilson, John (Falkirk) Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Rankin, Sir James Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart- Lowe, Francis William Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Wylie, Alexander Lucas-Shadwell, William Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wyndham, George Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Macartney, W. G. Ellison Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy MacIver, David (Liverpool) Round, James Young, Commander (Berks, E Malcolm, Ian Russell, T. W.(Tyrone) Younger, William Melville, Beresford Valentine Rutherford, John Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Seton-Karr, Henry Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sharpe, William Edward T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Milner, Fir Frederick George Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Milton, Viscount Simeon, Sir Barrington NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harwood, George Oldroyd, Mark Allan, William (Gateshead) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- O'Malley, William Ambrose, Robert Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Asher, Alexander Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Power, Patrick Joseph Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Price, Robert John Barlow, John Emmott Jacoby, James Alfred Priestley, Briggs (Yorks) Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire) Randell, David Billson, Alfred Kearley, Hudson E. Reckitt, Harold James Broadhurst, Henry Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Robson, William Snowdon Caldwell, James Lambert, George Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Cameron, Sir Charles(Gl'sg'w) Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Schwann, Charles E. Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh) Cawley, Frederick Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Clough, Walter Owen Leuty, Thomas Richmond Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshire Colville, John Lewis, John Herbert Smith, Samuel (Flint) Condon, Thomas Joseph Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson Crilly, Daniel Logan, John William Spicer, Albert Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Macaleese, Daniel Stanhope, Hon. Philips Dalziel, James HenrY M'Crae, George Steadman, William Charles Davitt, Michael M'Dermott, Patrick Stevenson, Francis S. Dillon, John M'Ghee, Richard Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Donelan, Captain A. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Maden, John Henry Wallace, Robert Evershed, Sydney Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Weir, James Galloway Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel Yoxall, James Henry Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Norton, Capt. Cecil William Griffith, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Question put accordingly, "That paragraph ( c ), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 111. (Division List, No. 254.)
AYES. Allsop, Hon. George Finch, George H. Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh) Archdale, Edward Mervyn Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morrell, George Herbert Arnold, Alfred Firbank, Joseph Thomas Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fisher, William Hayes Muntz, Philip A. Balcarres, Lord Flower, Ernest Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Gibbons, J. Lloyd Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Barnes, Frederic Gorell Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Nicol, Donald Ninian Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Giles, Charles Tyrrell O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Bartley, George C. T. Gilliat, John Saunders Penn, John Barton, Dunbar Plunket Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Percy, Earl Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Goldsworthy, Major-General Pierpoint, Robert Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol Gordon, Hon. John Edward Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants. Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Platt-Higgins, Frederick Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.) Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goulding, Edward Alfred Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Biddulph, Michael Graham, Henry Robert Purvis, Robert Bigwood, James Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y Rankin, Sir James Blundell, Colonel Henry Gretton, John Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l Bousfield, William Robert Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanson, Sir Reginald Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Brookfield, A. Montagu Henderson, Alexander Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Bullard, Sir Harry Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Round, James Burdett-Coutts, W. Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Royds, Clement Molyneux Butcher, John George Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Rutherford, John Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hobhouse, Henry Seton-Karr, Henry Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Sharpe, William Edward T. Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hornby, Sir William Henry Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Brim.) Howell, William Tudor Simeon, Sir Barrington Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Stanley Hn. A. (Ormskirk) Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Charrington, Spencer Jebb, Richard Claverhonse Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Chelsea, Viscount Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Stock, James Henry Clare, Octavius Leigh Jenkins, Sir John Jones Strauss, Arthur Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth) Kemp, George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Coddington, Sir William Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Coghill, Douglas Harry Kenyon, James Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kimber, Henry Thorburn, Walter Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse King Sir Henry Seymour Thornton, Percy M. Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Lafone, Alfred Tollemache, Henry James Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D. Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lea,Sir Thomas (Londonderry Tritton, Charles Ernest Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset Valentia, Viscount Cubitt, Hon. Henry Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Wanklyn, James Leslie Curzon, Viscount Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.) Denny, Colonel Lopes, Henry Yerde Buller Willox, Sir John Archibald Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lowe, Francis William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wylie, Alexander Dorington, Sir John Edward Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wyndham, George Doughty, George MacIver, David (Liverpool) Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Malcolm, Ian Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy Doxford, William Theodore Melville, Beresford Valentine Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Drucker, A. Meysey-Thompon, Sir H. M. Younger, William Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milner, Sir Frederick George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Fardell, Sir T. George Milton, Viscount Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Monk, Charles James Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) More, Robert Jasp. (Shropshire) NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Ambrose, Robert Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Allan, William (Gateshead) Asher, Alexander Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Barlow, John Emmott Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley) Power, Patrick Joseph Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jacoby, James Alfred Price, Robert John Billson, Alfred Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) Bolton, Thomas Dolling Kearley, Hudson E. Randell, David Broadhurst, Henry Kilbride, Denis Reckitt, Harold James Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Caldwell, James Lambert, George Robson, William Snowdon Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'd Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Schwann, Charles E. Cawley, Frederick Leng, Sir John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Clough, Walter Owen Leuty, Thomas Richmond Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) Colville, John Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Condon, Thomas Joseph Lloyd-George, David Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Crilly, Daniel Logan, John William Smith, Samuel (Flint) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Macaleese, Daniel Souttar, Robinson Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr. M.A.(Qn'sC. Spicer, Albert Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Davitt, Michael M'Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles Dillon, John M'Ghee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S. Donelan, Captain A. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Sullivan, Donald (Westmeath) Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan Maden, John Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips. Evershed, Sydney Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Wallace, Robert Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Flynn, James Cristopher Morgan, W. Pritchard(Merthyr Weir, James Galloway Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Gourley, Sir E. Temperley Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Falkirk) Griffith, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Harwood, George Oldroyd, Mark Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale- O'Malley, William Hemphill,Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
rose in Ins place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 255.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Butcher, John George Denny, Colonel Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Arnold, Alfred Cayzer, Sir Charles William Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cecil, E. (Hertford, East) Dorington, Sir John Edward Balcarres, Lord Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Doughty, George Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Chamberlain, J. A. (Worcester) Doxford, William Theodore Barnes, Frederic Gorrell Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Drucker, A. Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Charrington, Spencer Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Bartley, George C. T. Chelsea, Viscount Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Barton, Dunbar Plunket Clare, Octavius Leigh Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj'n Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Fardell, Sir T. George Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol Coddington, Sir William Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed. Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants. Coghill, Douglas Harry Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finch, George H. Bentrose, Sir Henry Howe Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cook, F. L. (Lambeth) Firbank, Joseph Thomas Biddulph, Michael Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Fisher, William Hayes Bigwood, James Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Flower, Ernest Blundell, Colonel Henry Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cross, A. (Glasgow) Gibbons, J. Lloyd Bousfield, William Robert Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Cubitt, Hon. Henry Giles, Charles Tyrrell Brookfield, A. Montagu Curzon, Viscount Gilliat, John Saunders Bullard, Sir Harry Dalrymple, Sir Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Burdett-Coutts, W. Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Goldsworthy, Major-General Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William Rutherford, John Gosechen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Sharpe, William Edward T. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Goulding, Edward Alfred MacIver, David (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington Graham, Henry Robert Malcolm, Ian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y Melville, Beresford Valentine Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) Gretton, John Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Milner, Sir Frederick George Stock, James Henry Hanson, Sir Riginald Milton, Viscount Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Henderson, Alexander Monk, Charles James Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter More, Rt. Jasper (Shropshire) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Morgan, Hon. F.(Monm'thsh. Thorburn, Walter Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd Morrell, George Herbert Thornton, Percy M. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Morton, A. H. A.(Deptford) Tollemache, Henry James Hobhouse, Henry Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw.Murray Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow Murray, Chas. J.(Coventry) Tritton, Charles Ernest Hornby, Sir William Henry Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Valentia, Viscount Howell, William Tudor Nicol, Donald Ninian Wanklyn, James Leslie Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Penn, John Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Percy, Earl Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Pierpoint, Robert Willox, Sir John Archibald Jenkins, Sir John Jones Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart- Kenyon, James Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin. Wylie, Alexander Kimber, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wyndham, George King, Sir Henry Seymour Purvis, Robert Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Lafone, Alfred Rankin, Sir James Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Younger, William Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Mattltew W. Llewellyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Round, James Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Royds, Clement Molyneux NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Allen, William (Gateshead) Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley) Power, Patrick Joseph Ambrose, Robert Jacoby, James Alfred Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Asher, Alexander Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Randell, David Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Kearley, Hudson E. Reckitt, Harold James Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Lambert, George Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Barlow, John Emmott Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Robson, William Snowdon Billson, Alfred Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees) Broadhurst, Henry Leng, Sir John Schwann, Charles E. Caldwell, James Leuty, Thomas Richmond Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Champbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas(Hawick B.) Cawley, Frederick Logan, John William Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Clough, Walter Owen MacAleese, Daniel Smith, Samuel (Flint) Colville, John MacDonnell, Dr. M A (Queen's C Souttar, Robinson Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Crae, George Spicer, Albert Crilly, Daniel M'Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) M'Gee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S. Dalziel, James Henry M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Davitt, Michael M'Leod, John Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Dillon, John Maddison, Fred. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Donelan, Captain A. Maden, John Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips Doogan, P. C. Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Wallace, Robert Duckworth, James Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth.) Weir, James Galloway Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Flynn, James Christopher Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry Gold, Charles O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W. Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Oldroyd, Mark Harwood, George O'Malley, William Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Question put accordingly, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 101. (Division List, No. 256.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Fardell, Sir T. George Milton, Viscount Archdale, Edward Mervyn Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Monk, Charles James Arnold, Alfred Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Atkinson, Right Hon. John Finch, George H. Morgan, Hn. F.(Monmouthsh. Balcarres, Lord Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morrell, George Herbert Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.) Firbank, Joseph Thomas Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W.(Leeds) Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Barnes, Frederic Gorell Flower, Ernest Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(H'nts) Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Bartley, George C. T. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Nicol, Donald Ninian Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Giles, Charles Tyrrell Penn, John Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstl.) Gilliat, John Saunders Percy, Earl Beach, W. W. B. (Hants) Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Pierpoint, Robert Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Goldsworthy, Major-General Pilkington, R.(Lancs,Newton) Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gordon, Hon. John Edward Platt-Higgins, Frederick Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Bigwood, James Goschen, Rt Hn G J (St George's) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin. Blundell, Colonel Henry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goulding, Edward Alfred Purvis, Robert Bousfield, William Robert Graham, Henry Robert Rankin, Sir James Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Brookfield, A. Montagu Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) Bullard, Sir Harry Gretton, John Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Burdett-Coutts, W. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Butcher, John George Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.) Hanson, Sir Reginald Round, James Cayzer, Sir Charles William Henderson, Alexander Royds, Clement Molyneux Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hill, Sir E. S. (Bristol) Rutherford, John Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead) Sharpe, William Edward T. Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Sidebottom, T.H. (Stalybridge Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hobhouse, Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington Charrington, Spencer Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Chelsea, Viscount Hornby, Sir W. Henry Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) Clare, Octavius Leigh Howell, William Tudor Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Coddington, Sir William Hutchinson, Capt. G.W.Grice- Stock, James Henry Coghill, Douglas Harry Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Cohen, Benjamin Louis Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Shurt, Hon. Humphry Napier Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jenkins, Sir John Jones Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Compton, Lord Alwyne Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Thorburn, Walter Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Kenyon, James Thornton, Percy M. Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. King, Sir Henry Seymour Tollemache, Henry James Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Lafone, Alfred Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tritton, Charles Ernest Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Valentia, Viscount Cubitt, Hon. Henry Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Curzon, Viscount Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Willox, Sir John Archibald Denny, Colonel Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) Wortley, Rt. Hn.C. B. Stuart- Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wylie, Alexander Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lowe, Francis William Wyndham, George Dorington, Sir John Edward Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. Doughty, George Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- MacIver, David (Liverpool) Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Doxford, William Theodore Malcolm, Ian Younger, William Drucker, A. Melville, Beresford Valentine Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart Mildmay, Francis Bingham Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milner, Sir Frederick George NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Atherley-Jones, L. Billson, Alfred Allan, William (Gateshead) Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Broadhurst, Henry Ambrose, Robert Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Caldwell, James Asher, Alexander Barlow, John Emmott Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Randell, David Cawley, Frederick Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Reckitt, Harold James Clough, Walter Owen Leng, Sir John Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs) Colville, John Leuty, Thomas Richmond Robson, William Snowdon Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees) Crilly, Daniel Lloyd-George, David Schwann, Charles E. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Logan, John William Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Macaleese, Daniel Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) Dalziel, James Henry MacDonnell, Dr M. A (Queen's C Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Davitt, Michael M'Crae, George Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Dillon, John M'Dermott, Patrick Smith, Samuel (Flint) Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Souttar, Robinson Doogan, P. C. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Spicer, Albert Duckworth, James M'Leod, John Steadman, William Charles Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Maddison, Fred. Stevenson, Francis S. Fenwick, Charles Maden, John Henry Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Flynn, James Christopher Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Thomas, Alfred (Glam., E.) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Goddard, Daniel Ford Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Trevelyan, Charles Phillips Gold, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wallace, Robert Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Norton, Capt. Cecil William Weir, James Galloway Harwood, George Nussey, Thomas Willans Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Oldroyd, Mark Wilson, John (Falkirk) Jacoby, James Alfred O'Malley, William Yoxall, James Henry Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Kearley, Hudson E. Pickersgill, Edward Hare TELLERS FOR THE NOES— kilbride, Denis Power, Patrick Joseph Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. Lambert, George Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Clause 3:—
The Amendment I have to move is a perfectly innocent one, and in ordinary circumstances I am certain it would have been accepted by the Government.
Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present; House counted, and, forty Members being found present:
I was saying that my Amendment is a perfectly innocent one, and under ordinary circumstances I should have hoped that it would have been accepted. But I am afraid the attitude of the Government towards all Amendments, innocent and uninnocent, gives me little hope that I shall be any more successful than some of my colleagues have been with their Amendments. The object of my Amendment is to alter the title of the Bill from "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," to "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Act, 1899." That is an Amendment which I think is obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General will agree that the title of an Act of Parliament should, as far as possible, convey the meaning of the Act and give it a particular identification from all other Acts dealing with the same subject. We have already other Acts dealing with tithe—I do not know how many—and it would be an advantage if anyone wished to turn it up and refer to it, so as to understand its meaning, if the word I have suggested were inserted. I think that the clergymen who gain by this Bill will not deny that they are obtaining relief, and the Government will not deny that they are giving the clergy relief. I am sure the Amendment will not do the Bill any harm, and it better expresses the object of the Bill than the present title. I hope the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General will accept the addition of the word "Relief," and make it unnecessary to have further discussion.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 1, after the word 'Rates,' to insert the word 'Relief.'"—( Dr. Dalziel. )
Question proposed, "That the word 'Relief' be there inserted."
I know how anxious the hon. Gentleman is to save the time of the Committee, and it gives me some pleasure in these circumstances to say at once that I am not able to accede to his request. He said that his Amendment was an innocent one, but innocence is not quite enough to induce its acceptance. It is necessary that there should be something in the Amendment. I am quite unable to see why the title of the measure should be amended in the direction desired. It is not usual to go into detail in the title if it sufficiently indicates the general subject dealt with. That subject is sufficiently indicated in the title, "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," and therefore I cannot recommend the acceptance of the Amendment.
As another Member anxious to save the time of the Committee, I wish to support the Amendment of my hon. friend. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General says that the mere fact of innocence is not enough for the acceptance of an Amendment; but earlier in the evening the only argument he advanced for the retention of some words in the Bill was that they would do no harm. But that is not my argument in favour of the Amendment. I think the title of a Bill ought to indicate clearly the nature of the Bill, so that the public should know what really its object is. If anyone looked at the title of the Bill as it stands, he would think that it had something to do with rating. It has nothing whatever to do with rating. I am sure the hon. and learned Solicitor-General will admit that. It does not affect rating; it does not touch assessment; and there is nothing about valuation in it. If the recommendations of the hon. member for Stroud and those who co-operated with him on the Royal Commission had been adopted, and changes had been made in the rating of the clergy, I quite admit that this might have been a very fair description of the Bill. But what is the nature of the transaction? The rating of the clergy is not touched; the rates of the clergy are not touched; everything is to remain exactly as it is, and only a certain amount of relief is to be given to the clergy. If you want a simple, condensed description of what the nature and character of the Bill is, it is "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Bill." So far as the popular mind is concerned it is really a Bill granting an addition to the endowment of the Church of England. A better description would have been "a Bill for making an addition to the stipends of the clergy," for its object is really a vote by Parliament to add £87,000 a year to the salaries or stipends of the clergy of the Established Church. I think the Committee ought to characterise this Bill according to the real nature of the transaction embodied in it. Why should the Government be afraid of it unless they are ashamed of this transaction? Why not call it by its proper name? They are actually afraid to put in a condensed form the character of the transaction.
I join in the appeal to the Solicitor-General to be reasonable. The Government have not up to the present exercised much reason in regard to the conduct of this Bill. I am bound to admit that there have been Amendments which I have supported which have perhaps been not quite so sensible as this. I cannot conceive anything more just than to ask that the Bill should be described in language in harmony with its nature. This is essentially an "Outdoor Relief Bill." Had I been consulted, I should have suggested as a description, "Tithe Rent-charge Out-door Relief Bill." Had we innocents, who are not favoured with a knowledge of the law, not been joining in the discussion of the Bill, we should not have known the meaning of it from its title, which is absolutely misleading. It is a strong thing to say that the Government gave it this title in order to mislead. I should not like to be so offensive as to suggest that; but many people would say so, and I am bound to admit that they would not be indulging in great inaccuracy. I think I know what the Solicitor-General is after; it is to see that nothing is done, or undone, that will necessitate a Report stage. I really think we ought to have one small concession in the demands of reason, truth, and justice before we part with this Bill.
I think this is an Amendment which the hon. Gentlemen opposite might very well accept. It is very reasonable, and the arguments on which my hon. friend based it must commend themselves to the Committee. I hope my hon. friend, unless he gets a far more satisfactory reply than he has done, will press the Amendment to a Division. The hon. and learned Member opposite has frankly acknowledged that we on this side of the House have no desire to prolong proceedings, and for my part, although the closure has been moved against me more than once, I have not put a single Amendment on the Paper that has not been in order. Well, the hon. and learned Member said it was not enough for an Amendment to be childlike and innocent. I do not know what he meant; but I remember his Leader coming down here and saying that on certain matters he was a child. In this matter we are children, and I do not think the hon. and learned Gentlemen ought to take any exception to us on that ground. The title of the Bill as proposed by the hon. and learned Member is distinctly misleading. It says, "This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899." After the discussions we have had, who can say in truth that that is an accurate description of the Bill? It only applies to one section of tithe rent-charge, to the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and I say that the title is a distinct misnomer.
Order, order! That is not the point before the Committee. The point is the word "relief."
It is not a relief to the lay impropriator, or to the tithe rent-charge belonging to colleges and schools. But even as it is, the word "relief" will make the title more appropriate to the character of the Bill.
I really think that this additional word "relief" does describe the purpose of the Bill more accurately than the description the Government have adopted. We are told the true principle underlying the Bill is the principle of justice, and that it was introduced in order to do justice to the clergy who have paid too much rates. I cannot see that the addition of this word "relief" interferes with the principle of justice. Then we are told that the Bill was introduced for personal services.
This is not the opportunity for reviewing all the Debates.
I bow to your ruling, Mr. Lowther. I would like to show that this word "relief" more accurately describes the character of the Bill than the Government in its infinite wisdom—
The hon. Member is now repeating arguments which have already been used.
I will not go beyond that. The actual interpolation of the word "relief" does not cast any slur whatever on the clergy. I am sure my hon. friend would not have moved it if he thought the word cast any slur on the clergy at all. The object is more accurately to convey to the electors at large the real object of the Bill, and as such I hope the Government will accept it.
Whenever the Government do not like the real object of a Bill to be exposed they always adopt a misnomer of a title. For instance, they introduce a "Rating Machinery Bill." But it is not a Bill for rating of machinery, but for the exemption of machinery from rating. I do not like the title of the Bill, or even the title, "The Clergy Relief Bill." To paraphrase a classical quotation, "How unhappy could I be with either." But by any other name this Bill would be to me equally unsweet.
I have no legal knowledge, and therefore it is almost presumption for me to follow the Solicitor-General, but I do not understand the meaning of the word "rates" as introduced.
Order, order! That is not the Question. The Question is that the words "rates relief" should be inserted.
I think the word "relief" should certainly be inserted, because unless you have something to indicate the character of the Bill, you will have a peculiar anomaly. Take the City of Sheffield. The title, "Tithe Rent Charge (Rates) Bill," would be entirely misleading to that great Yorkshire city, because the rates there do not apply to tithe rent-charge at all. There is not in that city a single penny of tithe rent-charge, although of course, as my hon. friend reminds me, the inhabitants of that city will have to pay. That is part of the policy of the Bill that I am not allowed to go into, and I do not wish to appear to do so. My only point is that this Bill is misleading, because it gives a title that has no application to certain districts of the country. Therefore, if the word relief, or if some other better word than relief, could be inserted in the title, it would give not merely an innocent appearance to the Bill, but an accurate description to the Bill itself. I certainly do think, while I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Leicester that this is the most important Amendment moved, that it is a substantial Amendment, that is to say, if the Government desire that the description of the Bill shall give any indication of its contents. The chances are that the Government, wise in their day and generation, do not want this to be done, but still I think that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill ought really to favourably consider either the actual word moved, or some other similar word in order to give the Bill an accurate description.
There is one provision in this Bill to which the proposed title of the Bill certainly is not applicable. The second sub-section of Clause 2 differs from all the other provisions of the Bill in this respect, that other provisions of the Bill relate to clergymen whose incomes are dependent upon the receipt of tithe rent-charge; but Subsection 2 of Clause 2 relates to quite another—
Order, order! That part of the Bill has been passed, and the hon. Member cannot refer back to it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 105; Noes, 175. (Division List, No. 257.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Allan, William (Gateshead) Gold, Charles Oldroyd, Mark Ambrose, Robert Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Malley, William Asher, Alexander Hazell, Walter Palmer, George Wm.(Reading Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph Barlow, John Emmott Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Randell, David Billson, Alfred Jacoby, James Alfred Reckitt, Harold James Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed. Rickett, J. Compton Burns, John Kilbride, Denis Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees) Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Langley, Batty Schwann, Charles E. Cameron, Robert (Durham) Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Causton, Richard Knight Leuty, Thomas Richmond Smith, Samuel (Flint) Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh) Lewis, John Herbert Souttar, Robinson Clough, Walter Owen Macaleese, Daniel Spicer, Albert Colville, John MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Q'n's C. Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Crae, George Steadman, William Charles Crilly, Daniel M'Dermott, Patrick Stevenson, Francis S. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) M'Ghee, Richard Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) M'Kenna, Reginald Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Davies, M. V.- (Cardigan) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E. Davitt, Michael M'Leod, John Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) Dillon, John Maddison, Fred. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Donelan, Captain A. Maden, John Henry Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Doogan, P. C. Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Weir, James Galloway Duckworth, James Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Whiteley, George (Stockport) Dunn, Sir William Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Evershed, Sydney Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Yoxall, James Henry Flynn, James Christopher Norton, Capt. Cecil William TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Broadhurst. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W. NOES. Allsopp, Hon. George Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Bathurst, Hon. A. B. Archdale, E. Mervyn Banbury, Frederick George Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Arnold, Alfred Barnes, Frederic Gorell Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Balcarres, Lord Bartley, George C. T. Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Barton, Dunbar Plunket Biddulph, Michael Bigwood, James Giles, Charles Tyrrell Morrison, Walter Blundell, Colonel Henry Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goldsworthy, Major-General Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Bousfield, William Robert Gordon, Hon. John Edward Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Brookfield, A. Montagu Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Bullard, Sir Harry Goulding, Edward Alfred O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Burdett-Coutts, W. Graham, Henry Robert Pierpoint, Robert Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Pilkington, R. (Lancs., Newton) Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.) Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Platt-Higgins, Frederick Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gretton, John Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Gull, Sir Cameron Priestley, Sir W. O.(Edin.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm. Purvis, Robert Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hanson, Sir Reginald Rankin, Sir James Charrington, Spencer Helder, Augustus Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Chelsea, Viscount Henderson, Alexander Richards, Henry Charles Clare, Octavius Leigh Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth) Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson Coddington, Sir William Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Coghill, Douglas Harry Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Royds, Clement Molyneux Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hobhouse, Henry Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Rutherford, John Compton, Lord Alwyne Hornby, Sir William Henry Savory, Sir Joseph Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Howell, William Tudor Sharpe, William Edward T. Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Simeon, Sir Barrington Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Stanley, Sir Hy. M. (Lambeth) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Jenkins, Sir John Jones Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Stock, James Henry Curzon, Viscount Kemp, George Strauss, Arthur Dalkeith, Earl of Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon, James Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Kimber, Henry Thorburn, Walter Denny, Colonel King, Sir Henry Seymour Thornton, Percy M. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lafone, Alfred Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Disraeli, Conings by Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tritton, Charles Ernest Dorington, Sir John Edward Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry Valentia, Viscount Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leighton, Stanley Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe) Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Warde, Lt.-Col. C.E. (Kent) Doxford, William Theodore Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans. Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. Drucker, A. Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.). Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Willox, Sir John Archibald Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Fardell, Sir T. George Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wylie, Alexander Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Lowe, Francis William Wyndham, George Finch, George H. Lowles, John Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas-Shadwell, William Young, Commander (Berks, E. Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macartney, W. G. Ellison Younger, William Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool) Flower, Ernest Melville, Beresford Valentine TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk) Monk, Charles James Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Gibbons, J. Lloyd More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Morrell, George Herbert
Question put, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 258.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Butcher, John George Archdale, Edward Mervyn Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Arnold, Alfred Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh. Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cayzer, Sir Charles William Balcarres, Lord Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Biddulph, Michael Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds Bigwood, James Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Banbury, Frederick George Blundell, Colonel Henry Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc Barnes, Frederic Gorell Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Bousfield, William Robert Charrington, Spencer Bartley, George C. T. Brookfield, A. Montagu Chelsea, Viscount Barton, Dunbar Plunket Bullard, Sir Harry Clare, Octavins Leigh Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Burdett-Coutts, W. Clarke, Sir Edward (Plym'th) Coddington, Sir William Hanson, Sir Reginald Muray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Coghill, Douglas Harry Helder, Augustus O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Cohen, Benjamin Louis Henderson, Alexander Pierpoint, Robert Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton) Compton, Lord Alwyne Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol) Platt- Higgins, Frederick Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hobhouse, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Purvis, Robert Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hornby, Sir William Henry Rankin, Sir James Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houston, R. P. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Curzon, Viscount Howell, William Tudor Richards, Henry Charles Dalkeith, Earl of Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Robertson, H. (Hackney) Denny, Colonel Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Royds, Clement Molyneux Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Jenkins, Sir John Jones Russell, T. w. (Tyrone) Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rutherford, John Dorington, Sir John Edward Kemp, George Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Savory, Sir Joseph Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Kenyon, James Sharpe, W. E. T. Doxford, William Theodore Kimber, Henry Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Drucker, A. King, Sir Henry Seymour Simeon, Sir Barrington Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Lafone, Alfred Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Fardell, Sir T. George Lea, Sir T. (Londonberry) Stock, James Henry Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Leighton, Stanley Strauss, Arthur Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Finch, George H. Llewelyn. Sir D.-(Swansea) Sturt, Hon. H. Napier Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Sutherland, Sir Thomas Firbank, Joseph Thomas Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Thorburn, Walter Fisher, William Hayes Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Thornton, Percy M. Flower, Ernest Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Tomlinson, W. E.Murray Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Tritton, Charles Ernest Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lowe, Francis William Valentia, Viscount Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lowles, John Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe) Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lucas-Shadwell, William Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Macartney, W. G. Ellison Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. Goldsworthy, Major-General MacIver, David (Liverpool) Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Melville, Beresford Valentine Willox, Sir J. Archibald Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Milton, Viscount Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Goulding, Edward Alfred Monk, Charles James Wylie, Alexander Graham, Henry Robert More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Wyndham, George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morrell, George Herbert Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Morrison, Walter Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Gretton, John Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Younger, William Gull, Sir Cameron Muntz, Philip A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G.(Bute) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Hanbury, Rt. Hn. RobertWm. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale- Allan, William (Gateshead) Crilly, Daniel Hazell, Walter Ambrose, Robert Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Asher, Alexander Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Atherley-Jones, L. Dalziel, James Henry Horniman, Frederick John Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Davitt, Michael Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Barlow, John Emmott Dillon, John Jacoby, James Alfred Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire Donelan, Captain A. Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Doogan, P. C. Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Billson, Alfred Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis Broadhurst, Henry Dunn, Sir William Labouchere, Henry Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Lambert, George Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evershed, Sydney Langley, Batty Burns, John Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Caldwell, James Flynn, James Christopher Leng, Sir John Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Leuty, Thomas Richmond Cameron, Robert (Durham) Goddard, Daniel Ford Lewis, John Herbert Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Gold, Charles Lloyd-George, David Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Gourley, Sir E. Temperley Logan, John William Clough, Walter Owen Haldane, Richard Burdon Macaleese, Daniel Colville, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C. M'Crae, George O'Malley, William Steadman, William Charles M'Dermott, Patrick Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham Stevenson, Francis S. M'Ghee, Richard Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) M'Kenna, Reginald Pickersgill, Edward Hare Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr M'Leod, John Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Trevelyan, Charles Philips Maddison, Fred Randell, David Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Maden, John Henry Reckitt, Harold James Weir, James Galloway Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Rickett, J. Compton Whiteley, George (Stockport) Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Schwann, Charles E. Wilson, John (Falkirk) Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Yoxall, James Henry Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Nussey, Thomas Willans Smith, Samuel (Flint) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Souttar, Robinson Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Spicer, Albert Oldroyd, Mark Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Clause 4:—
On a point of order I wish to ask whether, if I move the Amendment which stands in my name, it will have the effect of cutting out the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Merthyr, which comes next, or whether the hon. Member's Amendment will be saved when you put the Question?
I will put the Amendment in such a way as to safeguard the hon. Member's Amendment.
Then I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The effect of the Amendment will be practically to postpone the coming into effect of the Bill until the Royal Commission has reported, and until the Agricultural Rates Act has ceased to exist. The whole subject of local rating will then have to be considered, and a decision applicable to the whole subject can be taken. If this Act is postponed in its operation until the Agricultural Rates Act has expired the country will have an opportunity of thoroughly considering it. If it is a just measure it will, of course, remain, with the assent of the country, upon the Statute Book; if it is an unjust measure, the country will have an opportunity of considering the question of the incidence of local taxation as a whole. I think that everyone admits that a radical reform of local taxation is necessary, and that that question ought to be considered and dealt with as a whole. But the object of my Amendment is to enable the question to be considered as a whole. The grievance—or the alleged grievance—which this Bill has been introduced to remedy has existed for at least 300 years, and we are asked to consider and satisfactorily settle the whole question in three weeks. All I ask in my Amendment is that the matter shall stand over for two years, so that after 300 years the country may have the opportunity of considering whether it is right to make the change or not. What is the use of bringing in a Bill of this sort, the effect of which will only be to last two years? It leaves the clergy themselves in a state of uncertainty. A man receives an addition to his income, and he puts up his expenditure accordingly. At the end of two years it is possible that his income may have to come down again. Under these circumstances it is surely very unwise for the House, following the lead of the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, to plunge into these interim Reports and dangerous experiments without having any clear or adequate notion whether the country in two years' time will sanction the Bill and make it a permanent measure or not. If justice—and this is supposed to be the keynote of this Bill—if justice is to be enacted at all, then let it be enacted for all time and after full consideration, and not after two or three weeks' discussion. I think I have said enough—I do not want to detain the Committee at this hour of the evening—I think I have said enough to show that my Amendment is one of a reasonable character. I know that the Government have made up their minds to reject every Amendment that may be moved, however reasonable. I do not think that they will improve the respect which the country—or some small section of the country—may entertain for this Bill by the action that they are taking. What are we here for? Are we here to discuss Amendments or not? Why did not the Minister for Agriculture or the Leader of the House tell us: "You may discuss this Bill if you like for a week or a fortnight or a month—"
Order, order! That is not relevant to the subject.
I was only proceeding to say with regard to this particular Amendment that I had not any very great hope that it would be accepted. Still, at the same time I commend it to the attention of the Government and of the Committee, in the hope that at the eleventh hour it may be accepted.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 3, to leave out from the word 'shall,' to the word 'said,' in line 9, and insert the words, 'not come into operation until the expiration of the.'"—( Mr. Herbert Lewis. )
Question proposed, "That the words of the clause to 'any,' in line 4, stand part of the clause."
Upon a point of order, I would suggest to you, Sir, that in putting this Amendment you should save not only one which I have upon the Paper, but one which I have handed in in manuscript, the object of which is to prevent the Government from passing this Bill within a stated period.
The hon. Member's Amendment does not come in until line 7.
The Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman is no doubt a reasonable one from his point of view. We were foolish enough to believe that by following the precedent of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896, we should have received the approbation of the hon. Member opposite and his support in favour of restricted legislation. He does not appear however, to agree to the principle of limiting the Act to two years. The effect of the Amendment would be that at the end of two years the Bill would become permanent in its operation. This proposal appears to be carrying the Bill further than we desire.
The Bill has been introduced as a temporary measure on the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and we propose, pending a final settlement of the whole question of local taxation, that a hardship which presses with particular severity on one class of the community should be dealt with in a temporary but effective measure, and I hope the Committee, will reject this very insidious proposal. I suggest to hon. Members, in the interest of the Committee as a whole, that the discussion should be mainly directed to the important and substantial Amendments on the Paper, rather than to those which raise minor questions of interest.
Will the right hon. Gentleman accept any?
My suggestion was chiefly made in the interest of hon. Members opposite, and on the presumption that they had a real interest in the Amendments appearing in their names on the Paper. If they have no real interest in them, but merely move them to occupy the time of the Committee, then obviously the closure will meet our purpose. I ask the Committee to decide against this Amendment.
The right hon. Gentleman has made an appeal to us that we shall proceed to discuss the Amendments which appear on the Paper, and no doubt we shall do so. We have plenty of time to do that before the end of the session; it can be done on Monday. The clergy are not in such a hurry to get ther money as all that, and even if they were, there is no rate until September, so there is no need for us to hurry. The right. hon. Gentleman seems to be very much afraid that, if he accepts my hon. friend's Amendment, after two years' consideration, Parliament would not put this Bill into operation. But the right hon. Gentleman says, "Why not do as you did in the Agricultural Rating Act? You then appealed to us to make it only for five years, and then a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the whole matter of taxation." That was the mistake which we made in dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act—first of all in voting the money allocated by it on the expectation that the Royal Commission would consider the question relegated to it. But the Commission has not done so. And what we now say in respect of this Bill is, "You shall have the money after you have considered the question, but not before. We shall not give you the money for two years."
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to make a declaration which I am sorry he did not consider earlier, and I should like to ask him, and we on this side of the House would like to know, the precise meaning of his declaration that these Amendments should be discussed shortly, in order that we might consider the more important Amendments. That declaration is extremely reasonable, and we only now desire to know which of what he considers the more important Amendments he is prepared to accept.
I am afraid the hon. Gentleman entirely misunderstood me. I made the suggestion in the interests of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I thought they would discriminate between them. If they are all important, our position becomes much easier.
If the right hon. Gentleman means that if we concentrate our attention on certain interesting and important Amendments we would have some chance of getting even two or three Amendments accepted, there may be some reason for listening to the suggestion; but if, on the other hand, when those Amendments have had the attention of the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman is going to meet them with the same non possumus , we should only be wasting his time and our own.
I would respectfully invite the Committee to return to the consideration of the Amendment.
The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill having made a proposal, I think the Committee ought to be allowed really to understand the nature of the offer that has been made. What I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say was, that there are a certain number of Amendments, some of which are more important than others, and that if we economised the time on the less important, and devoted it to the more important Amendments, that would be far the better course. The Committee would be glad to know what amount of time they will be allowed to apportion between the various Amendments.
rose.
speaking amid cries of "Long," again said: I would again respectfully invite the Committee to consider the Amendment before the House.
Before you put the Question, Sir, I must again appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to say what he meant.
That is not relevant to the question before the Committee. I have permitted the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and the right hon. Gentleman the member for West Monmouth to make statements because the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill made a statement, but I think the Committee ought to return again to the consideration of the Amendment.
I propose to return to the Amendment. I do not think the case put forward for the Amendment has been answered by the right hon. Gentleman. The question I was going to put is this: If an injustice exists now and has existed for some time, and if it is the intention of the Bill to remedy that injustice, why is the Government only going to remedy it for two years? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman take the responsibility of making this a permanent measure? It seems to me here is a case for the contention of my hon. friend. We are to have a Report of the Commission, but no one can tell when. I always notice that, when once a Commission is appointed, if the secretary draws a good salary, it takes a very long time to report. Let us wait for the Report of this Commission, and when we have the full facts we shall know how to deal with them.
I support the Amendment because it delays the passing of this measure until the Royal Commission reports, and the Agricultural Rating Act comes to an end. Although the Bill has only been under discussion for two or three days there are already signs that it is viewed with great dissatisfaction in the country. The County Council of the West Riding, containing a majority I believe of gentlemen who hold views similar to those of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, have taken very strong exception to one of the most important provisions in the Bill, and the City Council of Sheffield, where parties are evenly balanced, passed a resolution with only three or four dissentients condemning the Bill. I consider the Amendment is a reasonable one, and I think it is unreasonable on the part of the Government to oppose all these Amendments as they have done, and I think they are doing themselves a great injustice in attempting to rush this Bill.
I should like to know whether this Bill is on all fours with the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. Will it apply to the new works of the parish councils, which the Agricultural Rating Act did not?
It will apply to all rates without exception.
This Bill has been sprung upon us, and neither we nor the country have had sufficient time to consider its effect. My hon. friend's proposition is that it should not become operative for two years, and that after that time it should become permanent. If I were perfectly certain we should win the next General Election—I think we shall, but we can never be absolutely certain on these matters—I should support that, but if we lose the General Election we shall have this Bill for another six years, and the question is whether we had not better lose the money for two years and then let the Act lapse, or whether we should pay the money permanently.
Before the Question is put I wish to ask, seeing that the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, intentionally or not, does not apply to the parish council rate in regard to the repayment from the Local Taxation Fund, though it applies to other rates, whether it is intended that this Act should have attached to it the same exclusion or exemption.
The answer to that really turns upon the question of who are the spending authorities. The spending authorities are mentioned in the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896. We have no such definition here, because the scheme of the Bill in that respect is different from the Act of 1896. There is no fixed sum paid yearly during the continuance of the Act for authorities defined as spending authorities, but the condition is that half of all rates, with the exceptions specified in the clause under consideration, should be borne by the incumbent, and the other half paid in the manner prescribed.
But the incumbent in this case will obtain the benefit of a reduction of half the parish council rate?
Certainly.
The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that those of us who voted for this Amendment would be voting for making the Bill a dummy Bill. I do not understand that to be the object of my hon. friend. His object is that during the next two years the country shall have an opportunity of realising the provisions of this Bill as they seem to have been realised inn certain parts of the country. At the expiration of that time I believe that no Government will have the nerve to bring in a similar Bill. By that time the nation will have realised that this is a Bill to relieve parsons from rates which they do not pay. There is no man who will under this Bill have half his rates paid for him in the future, but was allowed when his stipend was settled the full value of the rates which he would have to pay. Therefore I am absolutely accurate when I say that this is a Bill to relieve parsons of rates which they have not got to pay. On that ground I shall have the very greatest pleasure indeed in supporting my hon. friend in the Division Lobby in endeavouring to give the country an opportunity of realising what is the object of the Government in bringing in this iniquitous measure.
This Amendment will give the country an opportunity of considering the measure—
The hon. Member is anticipating his Third Reading speech.
I will not pursue that point. But this Amendment will give the country a great chance of really considering the question thoroughly. When this measure was sprung upon the House very few Members on either side really understood the question. We on this side of the House have had a chance of being educated by our colleagues. Members on the other side have had the same chance of being educated—whether or not they have taken advantage of it I do not know. What I would point out is that the country is being educated by the Debates in this House, and if they have a chance of two years' education they may come to a different conclusion than the majority in the House anticipate. Therefore, I say that the majority in this House do not represent the majority in the country.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to tell us on what ground the operation of this measure is to be limited to the continuance of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896. That is a piece of information which has not been given throughout the discussion. The Agricultural Rating Act was, beyond all question, due to agricultural depression, but we have been told again and again that this Bill has no connection whatever with agricultural depression. That being the case, why should this limitation be imposed? It is utterly inconsistent with all the arguments which have been used in support of the Bill. In truth, the course pursued by the Government has been a mass of inconsistencies from beginning to end.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 259.)
AYES. Allsopp, Hon. George Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Firbank, Joseph Thomas Arnold, Alfred Charrington, Spencer Fisher, William Hayes Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Chelsea, Viscount Flower, Ernest Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Clare, Octavius Leigh Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Bailey, James (Walworth) Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth) Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Baird, John George Alexander Coddington, Sir William Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) Balcarres, Lord Coghill, Douglas Harry Gilliat, John Saunders Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cohen, Benjamin Louis Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Goldsworthy, Major-General Banbury, Frederick George Compton, Lord Alwyne Gordon, Hon. John Edward Barnes, Frederic Gorell Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Gorst, Rt. Hon.Sir John Eldon Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's Bartley, George C. T. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Barton, Dunbar Plunket Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Goulding, Edward Alfred Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cripps, Charles Alfred Graham, Henry Robert Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton) Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cruddas, William Donaldson Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gretton, John Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Curzon, Viscount Gull, Sir Cameron Beresford, Lord Charles Dalkeith, Earl of Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Bigwood, James Davies, Sir Hor. D.(Chatham) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Bill, Charles Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanson, Sir Reginald Blundell, Colonel Henry C. Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hardy, Laurence Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Hare, Thomas Leigh Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Dorington, Sir John Edward Heaton, John Henniker Bousfield, William Robert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Helder, Augustus Brassey, Albert Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Henderson, Alexander Brookfield, A. Montagu Doxford, William Theodore Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Bullard, Sir Harry Drucker, A. Hill,Sir Edward Stock(Bristol) Burdett-Coutts, W. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Hoard, Edw Brodie (Hampstead Butcher, John George Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart Hobhouse, Henry Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire Fardell, Sir T. George Hornby, Sir William Henry Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir. J. (Manc.) Houston, R. P. Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Field Admiral (Eastbourne) Howell, William Tudor Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.(Birm. Finch, George H. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Milton, Viscount Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybridge) Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Monk, Charles James Simeon, Sir Barrington Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Skewes-Cox, Thomas Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Jenkins, Sir John Jones Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Morrell, George Herbert Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Morrison, Walter Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Kemp, George Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Mount, William George Stock, James Henry Kenyon, James Muntz, Philip A. Strauss, Arthur Kimber, Henry Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley King, Sir Henry Seymour Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Lafone, Alfred Murray, Col.Wyndham (Bath) Sutherland, Sir Thomas Laurie, Lieut.-General Nicholson, William Graham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Thorburn, Walter Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Thornton, Percy M. Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Pender, Sir James Tollemache, Henry James Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. Percy, Earl Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray Leighton, Stanley Pierpoint, Robert Tritton, Charles Ernest Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Valentia, Viscount Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A.R. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wanklyn, James Leslie Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Purvis, Robert Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Rankin, Sir James Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Lorne, Marquess of Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.) Lowe, Francis William Rentoul, James Alexander Willox, Sir John Archibald Lowles, John Richards, Henry Charles Wilson, J. W. (Wercestersh., N.) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) Lucas-Shadwell, William Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Wylie, Alexander Macartney, W. G. Ellison Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wyndham, George Macdona, John Cumming Round, James Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. MacIver, David (Liverpool) Royds, Clement Molyneux Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Malcolm, Ian Rutherford, John Younger, William Martin, Richard Biddulph Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) Melville, Beresford Valentine Saunderson, Rt.Hon. Col. E.J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John Savory, Sir Joseph Mildmay, Francis Bingham Seely, Charles Hilton Milner, Sir Frederick George Sharpe, William Edward T. NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Condon, Thomas Joseph Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H. Allan, William (Gateshead) Crilly, Daniel Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Ambrose, Robert Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R. Asher, Alexander Dalziel, James Henry Horniman, Frederick John Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy. Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Atherley-Jones, L. Davitt, Michael Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Dillon, John Jacoby, James Alfred Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Donelan, Captain A. Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. Barlow, John Emmott Doogan, P. C. Joicey, Sir James Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Duckworth, James Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Dunn, Sir William Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) Billson, Alfred Edwards, Owen Morgan Kearley, Hudson, E. Bolton, Thomas Dolling Ellis, John Edward Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Labouchere, Henry Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton Langley, Batty Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evershed, Sydney Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Burns, John Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Burt, Thomas Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Leng Sir John Buxton, Sydney Charles, Flynn, James Christopher Leuty, Thomas Richmond Caldwell, James Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Lloyd-George, David Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Logan, John William Cameron, Robert (Durham) Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Lough, Thomas Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Goddard, Daniel Ford Macaleese, Daniel Causton, Richard knight Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley MacDonnell, Dr M A.(Queen'sC Cawley, Frederick Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton M'Arthur, W. (Cornwall) Channing, Francis Allston Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Crae, George Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Dermott, Patrick Clough, Walter Owen Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- M'Ewan, William Colville, John Hazell, Walter M'Ghee, Richard M'Kenna, Reginald Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Stevenson, Francis S. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Pickersgill, Edward Hare Stuart, James (Shoreditch) M'Leod, John Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Maddison, Fred. Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Maden, John Henry Price, Robert John Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Priestly, Briggs (Yorks.) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Weir, James Galloway Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Randell, David Whitely, George (Stockport) Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Reckitt, Harold James Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Rickett, J. Compton Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Moulton, John Fletcher Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, John (Govan) Nussey, Thomas Willans Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudders. O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Woods, Samuel O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W. Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Yoxall, James Henry O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Smith, Samuel (Flint) Oldroyd, Mark Souttar, Robinson TELLERS FOR THE NOES— O'Malley, William Spicer, Albert Mr. Herbert Lewis and Mr. Lambert. Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durh'm Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Steadman, William Charles
I move this Amendment with a degree of diffidence, because of what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and because, in his august presence, I am not sure that any Amendment of mine will be regarded as important. Earlier in the evening he asked me whether I was serious. In moving this Amendment I assure him and the Committee that I am as serious and sincere and conscientious as the right hon. Gentleman himself could possibly be in promoting the Bill. I am not going to say anything about his impartiality, because I am sure the Chairman would rule me out of order. I wish to thank the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General for acknowledging that he recognised that the Amendments moved from this side of the House were not moved with any intention of prolonging the proceedings on this Bill. (Laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but the Solicitor-General said that, and, as far as I could see, with all seriousness. To come to this Amendment, I moved a similar one upon the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. It was then supported with almost unanimity on this side, and received some support on the other side of the House, while in the country it received a still larger measure of support. That being so, I venture to think that an Amendment exempting the poor-rate should receive infinitely more support in relation to this particular Bill than in the case of the Agricultural Rating Act. There can be no question at all that, at any rate up to the days of Elizabeth—in fact, I challenge hon. Members to deny that in the first instance— the relief of the poor came out of the tithe. It was not a question of paying a small rate for that purpose, but at the very least one-third of the tithe went to the relief of the poor. If that was the case at the origin of the tithe and for many centuries after, I say that even now the question of the rate for the relief of the poor ought to be exempted from a measure which proposes to relieve parsons from half the rates which they now pay. The grounds for my motion are very substantial, and with all seriousness I venture to commend it to the Committee.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 4, after the word 'except' to insert the words 'any rate levied in relief of the poor or.'"—( Mr. D. A. Thomas. )
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
I hope I may be allowed to assure the hon. Gentleman that when I referred to the seriousness of his previous Amendment I did not mean to throw the slightest doubt upon the sincerity of his motives. The present Amendment, I frankly admit, is a very substantial one—substantial because, if carried, it would destroy at least one-half of the effect of the Bill. It has been advanced and recommended to the Committee in a manner totally different from that which I had anticipated, and therefore the remarks I had prepared in answer to it are scarcely applicable. The hon. Gentleman has frankly told us that he casts aside altogether the historical arguments to which hon. Gentlemen on the other side have attached so much importance during previous discussions. He remarked upon the importance of the circumstances up to Queen Elizabeth, but what importance he attaches to the period since Queen Elizabeth's time I do not know. At any rate, he abrogates the whole historical argument.
Oh, no!
I admit that this is a substantial argument—that is to say, it raises a question which goes to the very foundation of the whole problem of the readjustment of local taxation. I am not casting any doubts upon the bona fides of the hon. Member or the sincerity of his motives in bringing forward Amendments, but this is an Amendment practically to the Second Reading, because it raises the whole question of the historical liability of certain classes of property to rates. Whatever may have been the case for the historical argument which has been urged with so much force by gentlemen opposite, Parliament has to realise that there has been a complete change in the capacity of different classes of property to bear the burden of local rates, and that, whatever may have been the case in the days when these burdens were created, at the present time the burden is unjustly distributed and the inequality ought to be redressed. To exclude from a measure of reform such as this the poor rate—which is probably at least half, and in some cases more than half—would be to make a farce of any reform of local taxation. Therefore, I think I am justified in saying that it is unnecessary and undesirable that we should go at this period of the Debate, on an Amendment in Committee, into the whole question, historical or otherwise, and I am justified, I think, in asking the Committee to reject this Amendment on the ground that in the first place, we have proved that the incidence of local taxation is unjust and unfair; and in the second place no attempt has been made to meet the argument that if this Amendment were carried it would reduce the relief in a degree for which there is no justification whatever. I therefore ask the Committee t6 resist this Amendment, and I hope they will do so, because we have so far established the case for those whom we seek to relieve.
I am sure the House will be very sorry that, by reason of the capital speech made by my hon. friend who moved this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to put before the House the observations which he had prepared in answer to this proposal. I suppose that is the reason why the right hon. Gentleman did not, so far as I could gather, adduce one single argument why this poor rate should be excused to one class of persons. He said my hon. friend has turned his back upon all ancient authorities; but he had done nothing of the kind, for he had not had time to get them out. Here is a book from which I should like to quote one passage. It is a book written by the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, and in it he invites us to go back to ancient history, and this is what the hon. and learned Member says:
"During the first ages of Christianity
—and I hope that goes back far enough to please the right hon. Gentleman-—
"Clergymen were supported by the voluntary offerings of their flock."
It is a pity that that is not so now. Continuing the quotation, the hon. and learned Member says:
"But this being a precarious existence, the ecclesiastics in every country in Europe claimed, and, what is more important, in the course of time established, a right to the tenth part of the produce of the land."
That is the origin of tithe in the early ages of Christianity. Then we have got this Report which is the foundation for this Bill, and it deals with the subject in extenso . In that Report the Commissioners go back further than the first ages of Christianity, for they go back to Leviticus. I venture to call the attention of the Committee to Clause 4 of the Report, which states that tithes were devoted to the maintenance of the church fabric, the use of the bishop and incumbent, and also:
"To some extent, to the feeding of the poor and the entertainment of the stranger."
Apparently that "some extent" has vanished entirely now; and yet this is the rate which you are proposing to take, to the extent of one half of it, from the shoulders of those whose only excuse—if excuse they have—for taking the tithes at all is, that out of this rate they were, to the extent of one-third, willing to maintain the poor. I am inclined to cite one more authority, more particularly as I now see the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place. Hitherto, I think the only part which the right hon. Gentleman has taken in these discussions is the part of walking through the Lobby. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to call the attention of the Committee to some cogent observations made by him with respect to the poor rates. This is what he said:
"I rejoice to say that it seems that the turning point has arrived, and unless the House should take the dangerous step of supplementing the poor rates by grants from the Consolidated Fund, there may be some hopes of the poor rates being reduced. But I am certain that no step is more likely to increase our expenditure than if the House was to open the flood-gates of the Consolidated Fund."
Those are opinions which the right hon. Gentleman expressed when he was in the prime of his manhood, and, so far as we are concerned, we adhere to those very liberal opinions which he then expressed. No doubt the Committee will be glad of any enlightenment from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, and we should like to hear some reason for his change of opinion. Unless he gives us some very good reason, we shall be forced to go into the Lobby in obedience to the call of my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. While the clergyman is to be relieved, the poor farmer has to pay his rates in full, and the clergyman is also being relieved of his duty to the poor. Therefore I think my hon. friend was justified in bringing forward this Amendment, for he is only putting forward opinions which were once held by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 149; Noes, 267. (Division List, No. 260.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dunn, Sir William Lloyd-George, David Allan, William (Gateshead) Edwards, Owen Morgan Logan, John William Ambrose, Robert Ellis, John Edward Lough, Thomas Asher, Alexander Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Macaleese, Daniel Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton) MacDonnell, Dr. M. A (Qu'n's C Atherley-Jones, L. Evershed, Sydney M'Crae, George Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Fenwick, Charles M'Dermott, Patrick Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) M'Ewan, William Barlow, John Emmott Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Ghee, Richard Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Flynn, James Christopher M'Kenna, Reginald Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Billson, Alfred Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Leod, John Bolton, Thomas Dolling Goddard, Daniel Ford Maddison, Fred Broadhurst, Henry Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Maden, John Henry Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Haldane, Richard Burdon Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Burns, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Burt, Thomas Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Buxton, Sydney Charles Hazell, Walter Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Caldwell, James Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Cameron, Robert (Durham) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.) Moulton, John Fletcher Causton, Richard Knight Horniman, Frederick John Norton, Capt. Cecil William Cawley, Frederick Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Nussey, Thomas Willans Channing, Francis Allston Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Jacoby, James Alfred O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Clough, Walter Owen Joicey, Sir James Oldroyd, Mark Colville, John Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Malley, William Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham Crilly, Daniel Kearley, Hudson E. Palmer, George Wm.(Reading Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Kilbride, Denis Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Dalziel, James Henry Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth Pickersgill, Edward Hare Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Lambert, George Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, SW Davitt, Michael Langley, Batty Power, Patrick Joseph Dewar, Arthur Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Price, Robert John Dillon, John Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks) Donelan, Captain A. Leng, Sir John Randell, David Doogan, P.C. Leuty, Thomas Richmond Reckitt, Harold James Duckworth, James Lewis, John Herbert Rickett, J. Compton Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh. Stevenson, Francis S. Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.) Robertson, Edmund(Dundee) Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E. Wilson, John (Govan) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) Woodhouse, Sir, J. T. (Hud'sfield Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Woods, Samuel Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wedderburn, Sir William Yoxall, James Henry Souttar, Robinson Weir, James Galloway Spicer, Albert Whiteley, George(Stockport) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur. Steadman, William Charles Williams, John Carvell (Notts. NOES. Allsopp, Hon. George Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hare, Thomas Leigh Anson, Sir William Reynell Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Heaton, John Henniker Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cripps, Charles Alfred Helder, Augustus Arnold, Alfred Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Henderson, Alexander Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Atkinson, Right Hon. John Cruddas, William Donaldson Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitznoy Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Bailey, James (Walworth) Curzon, Viscount Hobhouse, Henry Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Dalkeith, Earl of Hulland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Baird, John George Alexander Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hornby, Sir William Henry Balcarres, Lord Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chat'm Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Houston, R. P. Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Howell, William Tudor Banbury, Frederick George Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dorington, Sir John Edward Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H.S.-(Hunts Doughty, George Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice. Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A Akers- Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies. Bartley, George C. T. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Barton, Dunbar Plunket Doxford, William Theodore Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Drucker, A. Jenkins, Sir John Jones Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstol) Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Beckett, Ernest William Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Joliffe, Hon. H. George Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Kemp, George Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Fardell, Sir T. George Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Kenyon, James Beresford, Lord Charles Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Kimber, Henry Bigwood, James Finch, George H. King, Sir Henry Seymour Bill, Charles Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lafone, Alfred Blundell, Colonel Henry Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lauri, Lieut.-General Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Fisher, William Hayes Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fison, Frederick William Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Bousfield, William Robert Flower, Ernest Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H. Brassey, Albert Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Leighton, Stanley Brookfield, A. Montagu Gedge, Sydney Llewellyn, Evan H. (Som'set.) Bullard, Sir Harry Gibbons, J. Lloyd Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swan.) Burdett-Coutts, W. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Butcher, John George Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Loder, Gerald Walter Ersk. Carlile, William Walter Gilliat, John Saunders Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.) Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Goldsworthy, Major-General Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lorne, Marquess of Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Lowles, John Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Goulding, Edward Alfred Lucas-Shadwell, William Charrington, Spencer Graham, Henry Robert Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Chelsea, Viscount Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Clare, Octavius Leigh Green, Walfort D (Wednesbury Macdona, John Cummnig Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) MacIver, David (Liverpool) Cochrane, Hon.Thos. H. A. E. Gretton, John M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Coddington, Sir William Greville, Hon. Ronald Malcolm, Ian Coghill, Douglas Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Martin, Richard Biddulph Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Melville, Beresford Valentine Collings, Rt, Hon. Jesse Halsey, Thomas Frederick Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John. Compton, Lord Alwyne Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Hanson, Sir Reginald Milner, Sir Frederick George Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Hardy, Laurence Milton, Viscount Milward, Colonel Victor Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester). Monk, Charles James Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ. Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Thorburn, Walter More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Thornton, Percy M. Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. Round, James Tollemache, Henry James Morrell, George Herbert Royds, Clement Molyneux Tomlinson, W. E. Murray Morrison, Walter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Tritton, Charles Ernest Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford Rutherford, John Valentia, Viscount Mount, William George Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Muntz, Philip A. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Wanklyn, James Leslie Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G.(Bute) Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.(Kent) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Savory, Sir Joseph Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Nicholson, William Graham Seely, Charles Hilton Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Seton-Karr, Henry Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Sharpe, William Edward T. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Pender, Sir James Sidebottom, T. H.(Stalybr.) Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm Penn, John Simeon, Sir Barrington Willox, Sir John Archibald Percy, Earl Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Pierpoint, Robert Smith, J. P.(Lanarkshire) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk) Wyndham, George Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stephens, Henry Charles Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Purvis, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Stock, James Henry Younger William Rankin, Sir James Strauss, Arthur Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Rentoul, James Alexander Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Richards, Henry Charles Sutherland, Sir Thomas
My object in moving this Amendment is to bring the Bill into conformity with Standing Order No. 45. If this Amendment is accepted, I propose at a later stage to move a new clause, which I have handed in, providing for the precise duration of the Act. This being only a temporary Bill, during the continuation of the Agricultural Rating Act, it is a measure of a temporary character, and certainly falls within the provisions of Standing Order No. 45. I know it will be argued that the Agricultural Rating Act did not comply with the Standing Orders. I do not see, because an oversight occurred in that Act, that it should be taken as a precedent. If we have Standing Orders, for Heaven's sake let us obey them. This Standing Order was passed in the year 1849, and I presume it was passed for some good and sufficient reason. I do not want the discussion on the Committee stage prolonged, and I will not delay the Committee from coming to a decision.
Another Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 7, to leave out from the word 'half' to the end of the clause."—( Mr. David Thomas. )
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
I understand the hon. Gentleman moves this Amendment in order to establish his contention that the first clause of the Bill is not in accordance with the Standing Order. Whether the clause is or is not in accordance with the Standing Order, rests with a higher authority than myself. This Bill was drawn with a full knowledge of the provisions of that Standing Order, and every possible step was taken by the framers of the Bill to see that the Standing Order was complied with. I want to point out to the hon. Gentleman that he is adopting a form of Amendment which would be, to say the least of it, extremely inconvenient. He proposes to remove the words which contain the date when the Act will come into force. It is absolutely necessary that the date should be stated when the new rating system comes into operation.
I have provided for that by a new clause.
Yes, but I am dealing with the hon. Member's Amendment as it stands. Whether he would be able afterwards to secure the introduction of other words is a totally different thing, which we cannot discuss at the present time. It is sufficient for me, as the Minister in charge of the Bill, to say that every step necessary was taken in order to procure that the framing of the Bill was in compliance with the Standing Orders.
As a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I wish to ask you whether the Bill is in compliance with the Standing Order.
That is not a question for me to decide. The Bill in its present state was referred to the Committee. If there was anything improper in the shape of the Bill, objection ought to have been taken before the Bill was referred to the Committee. The Second Reading of the Bill cures any defect.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 274; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 261.)
AYES. Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Compton, Lord Alwyne Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Allsopp, Hon. George Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Anson, Sir William Reynell Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Arnold, Alfred Cox, Irwin Edward B. Hanson, Sir Reginald Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cripps, Charles Alfred Hardy, Laurence Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hare, Thomas Leigh Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cross, Herbert S.(Bolton) Heaton, John Henniker Bailey, James (Walworth) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Helder, Augustus Baillie, James E.B.(Inverness) Curzon, Viscount Henderson, Alexander Baird, John George Alexander Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Balcarres, Lord Dalkeith, Earl of Hill, Sir Edwd. Stock (Bristol) Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Hobhouse, Henry Banbury, Frederick George Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Barnes, Frederic Gorell Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hornby, Sir William Henry Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frd. Dixon Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor) Dorington, Sir John Edward Houston, R. P. Bartley, George C. T. Doughty, George Howell, William Tudor Barton, Dunbar Plunket Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Doxford, William Theodore Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Beckett, Ernest William Drucker, A. Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Jenkins, Sir John Jones Beresford, Lord Charles Fardell, Sir T. George Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Bigwood, James Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Kemp, George Bill, Charles Field, Admiral(Eastbourne) Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Blundell, Colonel Henry Finch, George H. Kenyon, James Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Firbank, Joseph Thomas Kimber, Henry Bousfield, William Robert Fisher, William Hayes King, Sir Henry Seymour Brassey, Albert Fison, Frederick William Lafone, Alfred Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Flower, Ernest Laurie, Lieut.-General Brookfield, A. Montagu Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Ballard, Sir Harry Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry Burdett-Coutts, W. Galloway, William Johnson Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. Butcher, John George Gedge, Sydney Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Carlile, William Walter Gibbons, J. Lloyd Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Leighton, Stanley Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gilliat, John Saunders Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goldsworthy, Major-General Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Birm. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Livep'l) Charrington, Spencer Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Chelsea, Viscount Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Lorne, Marquess of Clare, Octavius Leigh Goulding, Edward Alfred Lowe, Francis William Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Graham, Henry Robert Lowles, John Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Coddington, Sir William Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sbury Lucas-Shadwell, William Coghill, Douglas Harry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gretton, John Macartney, W. G. Ellison Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Greville, Hon. Ronald Macdona, John Cumming Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Gull, Sir Cameron MacIver, David (Liverpool) M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Malcolm, Ian Rankin, Sir James Sutherland, Sir Thomas Martin, Richard Biddulph Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Melville, Beresford Valentine Rentoul, James Alexander Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Ox.Un.) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Richards, Henry Charles Thorburn, Walter Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Thornton, Percy M. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matt. W. Tollemache, Henry James Milner, Sir Frederick George Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray Milton, Viscount Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Tritton, Charles Ernest Milward, Colonel Victor Round, James Valentia, Viscount Monk, Charles James Royds, Clement Molyneux Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wanklyn, James Leslie More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Rutherford, John Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.) Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent) Morrell, George Herbert Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Morrison, Walter Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Ed. J. Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd. Mount, William George Savory, Sir Joseph Whitmore, Charles Algernon Muntz, Philip A. Seely, Charles Hilton Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Seton-Karr, Henry Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.) Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Sharpe, William Edward T. Willox, Sir John Archibald Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr. Wilson, John(Falkirk) Nicholson, William Graham Simeon, Sir Barrington Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) Nicol, Donald Ninian Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Smith, James P.(Lanarks.) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander Pender, Sir James Spencer, Ernest Wyndham, George Penn, John Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Percy, Earl Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Pierpoint, Rich.(Lancs, Newton Stephens, Henry Charles Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Younger, William Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stock, James Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Strauss, Arthur Purvis, Robert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Duckworth, James Leese, Sir J. E. (Accrington) Allison, Robert Andrew Dunn, Sir William Leng, Sir John Ambrose, Robert Edwards, Owen Morgan Leuty, Thomas Richmond Asher, Alexander Ellis, John Edward Lewis, John Herbert Atherley-Jones, L. Evans, Sir F. H.(South'ton) Lloyd-George, David Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Evershed, Sydney Logan, John William Barlow, John Emmott Fenwick, Charles Lough, Thomas Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Ferguson, R. C. M.(Leith) MacAleese, Daniel Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond MacDonnell, Dr M A. (Queen's C Billson, Alfred Flynn, James Christopher M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Bolton, Thomas Dolling Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Crae, George Broadhurst, Henry Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Dermott, Patrick Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John M'Ewan, William Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Ghee, Richard Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Gourley, Sir E. Temperley M'Kenna, Reginald Burns, John Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Burt, Thomas Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Leod, John Caldwell, James Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Maddison, Fred. Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Maden, John Henry Causton, Richard Knight Hazell, Walter Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Cawley, Frederick Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Channing, Francis Allston Holland, W. H.(York, W.R.) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Horniman, Frederick John Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Clough, Walter Owen Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Colville, John Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Condon, Thomas Joseph Jacoby, James Alfred Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Crilly, Daniel Joicey, Sir James Moulton, John Fletcher Crombie, John William Jones, D. Brymnore (Swansea) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Nussey, Thomas Willans Dalziel, James Henry Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan Kearley, Hudson E. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Davitt, Michael Kilbride, Denis Oldroyd, Mark Dewar, Arthur Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth O'Malley, William Dillon, John Labouchere, Henry Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham Donelan, Captain A. Lambert, George Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Doogan, P. C. Langley, Batty Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.) Whiteley, George (Stockport) Power, Patrick Joseph Smith, Samuel(Flint) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Price, Robert John Soames, Arthur Wellesley Williams, J. Carvell (Notts) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) Souttar, Robinson Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Spicer, Albert Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) Randell, David Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Wilson, John(Durham Mid.) Reckitt, Harold James Steadman, William Charles Wilson, John (Govan) Rickett, J. Compton Stevenson, Francis S. WilsonJos. H. (Middlesbrough) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huders) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Woods, Samuel Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, Alfred (Glamor., E.) Yoxall, James Henry Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Walton, John Law. (Leeds,S.) Scott Ch. Prestwich (Leigh) Warner, Thomas CourtenayT. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Shaw, Charles Edward (Staf.) Wedderburn, Sir William Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Samuel Evans. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Weir, James Galloway
Question put, "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 155. (Division List, No. 262.)
AYES. Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Coddington, Sir William Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Allsopp, Hon. George Coghill, Douglas Harry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Anson, Sir William Reynell Cohen, Benjamin Louis Goulding, Edward Alfred Archdale, Edward Mervyn Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Graham, Henry Robert Arnold, Alfred Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Compton, Lord Alwyne Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W Gretton, John Bailey, James (Walworth) Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Greville, Hon. Ronald Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness Cox, Irwin Edw. Banibridge Gull, Sir Cameron Baird, John George Alexander Cripps, Charles Alfred Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Balcarres, Lord Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(Manc'r Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds Curzon, Viscount Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Banbury, Frederick George Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hanson, Sir Reginald Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dalkeith, Earl of Hardy, Laurence Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hts. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hare, Thomas Leigh Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Heaton, John Henniker Bartley, George C. T. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Helder, Augustus Barton, Dunbar Plunket Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Henderson, Alexander Beach, Rt Hn Sir M.H.(Bristol Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D. Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Beckett, Ernest William Dorington, Sir John Edward Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol) Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Doughty, George Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hobhouse, Henry Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow) Beresford, Lord Charles Doxford, William Theodore Hornby, Sir William Henry Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Drucker, A. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Bigwood, James Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Houston, R. P. Bill, Charles Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Howell, William Tudor Bludell, Colonel Henry Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Fardell, Sir T. George Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Bousfield, William Robert Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manch Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Brassey, Albert Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finch, George H. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Brookfield, A. Montagu Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Jenkins, Sir John Jones Bullard, Sir Harry Firbank, Joseph Thomas Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Burdett-Coutts, W. Fisher, William Hayes Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Butcher, John George Fison, Frederick William Kemp, George Carlile, William Walter Flower, Ernest Kenyon, James Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh. Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Kimber, Henry Cayzer, Sir Charles William Galloway, William Johnson Lafone, Alfred Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gedge, Sydney Laurie, Lieut-General Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.(City of Lon Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Ed. H. Charrington, Spencer Gilliat, John Saunders Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Chelsea, Viscount Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Clare, Octavius Leigh Goldsworthy, Major-General Leighton, Stanley Clarke, Sir Edwd.(Plymouth) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R. O'Neil, Hon. Robert Torrens Stephens, Henry Charles Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pender, Sir James Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Penn, John Stock, James Henry Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l) Percy, Earl Strauss, Arthur Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Pierpoint, Robert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Lorne, Marquess of Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Lowe, Francis William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sutherland, Sir Thomas Lowles, John Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ. Lucas-Shadwell, William Purvis, Robert Thorburn, Walter Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Thornton, Percy M. Macartney, W. G. Ellison Rankin, Sir James Tollemache, Henry James Macdona, John Cumming Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray MacIver, David (Liverpool) Rentoul, James Alexander Tritton, Charles Ernest M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb.,W.) Richards, Henry Charles Valentia, Viscount Malcolm, Ian Richardson, Sir Thos.(Hartlep'l Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Martin, Richard Biddulph Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wanklyn, James Leslie Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe) Melville, Beresford Valentine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Robinson, Brooke Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John Round, James Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Mildmay, Francis Bingham Royds, Clement Molyneux Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd Milner, Sir Frederick George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Whitmore, Charles Algernon Milton, Viscount Rutherford, John Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) Milward, Colonel Victor Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) Monk, Charles James Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Willox, Sir John Archibald Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Savory, Sir Joseph Wylie, Alexander Morrell, George Herbert Seely, Charles Hilton Wyndham, George Morrison, Walter Seton-Karr, Henry Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'd.) Sharpe, William Edward T. Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy Mount, William George Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr. Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Muntz, Philip A. Simeon, Sir Barrington Younger, William Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) Skewes Cox, Thomas Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Nicholson, William Graham Spencer, Ernest Nicol, Donald Ninian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dalziel, James Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Allison, Robert Andrew Davies,M Vaughan-(Cardigan) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Ambrose, Robert Davitt, Michael Jacoby, James Alfred Asher, Alexander Dewar, Arthur Joicey, Sir James Atherley-Jones, L. Dillon, John Jones, David Brymnor (Swan. Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Donelan, Captain A. Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Barlow, John Emmott Doogan, P. C. Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Kearley, Hudson E. Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis Billson, Alfred Dunn, Sir William Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth Birrell, Augustine Edwards, Owen Morgan Labouchere, Henry Bolton, Thomas Dolling Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Langley, Batty Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Evershed, Sydney Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fenwick, Charles Leng, Sir John Burns, John Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith) Leuty, Thomas Richmond Burt, Thomas Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lewis, John Herbert Caldwell, James Flynn, James Christopher Lloyd-George, David Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Logan, John William Causton, Richard Knight Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lough, Thomas Cawley, Frederick Goddard, Daniel Ford MacAleese, Daniel Channing, Francis Allston Gourley, Sir E. Temperley MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.) Gurdon, Sir William Brampton MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Clough, Walter Owen Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Crae, George Colville, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Dermott, Patrick Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- M'Ewan, William Crilly, Daniel Hazell, Walter M'Ghee, Richard Crombie, John William Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. M'Kenna, Reginald Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Holland, W. H.(York, W. R.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Horniman, Frederick John M'Leod, John Maddison, Fred Price, Robert John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Maden, John Henry Priestley, Briggs (Yorks) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Randell, David Wedderburn, Sir William Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Reckitt, Harold James Weir, James Galloway Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Rickett, J. Compton Whiteley, George (Stockport) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Robert, John H. (Denbighs.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Robson, William Snowdon Williams, John Carvell (Notts Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) Moulton, John Fletcher Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Nussey, Thomas Wilians Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wilson, John (Falkirk) O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire Wilson, John (Govan) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.N. Oldroyd, Mark Souttar, Robinson Wilson, J. H. Middlesbrough) O'Malley, William Spicer, Albert Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Hud'sfield Palmer, Sir Chas.M.(Durham) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Woods, Samuel Palmer, Geo. Wm.(Reading) Steadman, William Charles Yoxall, James Henry Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.) Stevenson, Francis S. Pickersgill, Edward H. Stuart, James (Shoreditch) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.
New Clause:—
The object of the new Clause I now propose is to exempt Wales from the operation of the Bill. I observe some of my colleagues have put down Amendments to a similar effect, and if my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr intends to move his Amendment, I am quite willing to accept the latter part of his clause, for I do not desire that Wales should lose any benefit to which it might otherwise be entitled under this Bill. We certainly should prefer that any money which Wales may have to pay under this Bill should be devoted to some educational purpose. There are plenty of Parliamentary precedents for dealing with Wales separately, so I need not labour that point. We have had a Sunday Closing Bill for Wales, and a Welsh Intermediate Education Bill which no one would now desire to see repealed; indeed, so beneficial has one of those Acts proved, that proposals have been made by a Royal Commission for extending it. But there are some Acts from which Wales would be gladly excluded, owing to the opinions of the majority of the population, and this is one of them. We have heard a good deal since last Monday of the injustice that this Bill will inflict upon other parts of the United Kingdom. That injustice is especially marked in the case of Wales. The Welsh nation is a nation of Nonconformists, and therefore the passing of this Act would be especially unjust to Wales. Welsh Nonconformists consider that the tithe at the present time is entirely misappropriated, and they hold that it should be applied to purely national purposes. They ob- ject to what they deem to be national property being paid into the coffers of one sect, and they think it is only adding a further injustice to relieve one particular class of the community at the expense of the nation generally. I have observed that hon. Gentlemen opposite representing Welsh constituencies have voted steadily, and with an almost pathetic fidelity, with the Government on most of the stages of this Bill. I see one or two of them who represent urban constituencies in South Wales, and I do not envy them the task of presenting to their constituents the case for this Bill. I have no doubt they will do it as ably and effectively as it can be done; they will make the best case for the most wretched Bill that was ever brought before this House; but still, at the same time, I have confidence as to what would be the result of an appeal to their constituents on this particular Bill. In the last Parliament we had no less than thirty-one out of thirty-four Welsh members pledged to redress the great injustice which the existence of religious inequality in the Principality entails. It is true that in this Parliament we have not so large a majority, but still there are twenty-five of us as against nine. You are forcing a measure down the throats of a people who, by twenty-five votes to nine, have declared their opposition to the kind of Bill you are now introducing—a measure which they view as a great act of injustice. Over and over again in the course of these Debates it has been asserted that this Bill is based on justice, but do you think it is right to make the Nonconformists of Wales, the people who have been doing the major part of the religious and spiritual work in that country during the past generation, to pay out of their own hard earnings a still further addition to the tithe in Wales? I ask the House is that justice to the country, a portion of which I represent? As the Committee is aware the tithe question has been a burning question in Wales in the past, and hundreds and thousands of farmers have undergone very severe pains and penalties rather than pay the tithe. The payment has been enforced, not merely by tithe bailiffs and emergency men, but also by the military forces of the Crown, and the Welsh Nonconformists have been made to feel a galling yoke. Thousands of people have been sold up rather than pay the tithe voluntarily, and these are the very men upon whom you are throwing an additional burden. I have spoken of them as the people who have been doing the spiritual work of the country. Let me give an instance—a parish which is typical of hundreds of other parishes in Wales. It is a large and populous parish. During the last few years mining centres have sprung up in different parts of it. There was one church in a small hamlet in a thinly populated part of the parish, and to the services of that church many hundreds of pounds of tithes were devoted annually. The rest of the tithe probably went into the coffers of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. What did the Church do in that parish? It maintained out of the money contributed by the tithe-payers, chiefly Nonconformists, one Church for a few people. What did the Nonconformists do in the populous mining and quarrying villages? They made religious provision for the inhabitants; they provided Sunday services for people who would otherwise have been altogether destitute of religious ministrations. That continued for a long time, and then the Ecclesiastical Commissioners provided another church. There are hundreds of country parishes in which there is one church attended by a small handful of people, but in which by far the greater portion of spiritual work is done by Nonconformists, who have no endowment in the shape of tithe to rely upon. The work has been done from first to last on the voluntary principle because their hearts were in it. They have provided theological colleges for the education of ministers. They have provided populous churchless places with ministers, and in places where there has been no minister there has been an energetic and devoted diaconate ready to conduct Sunday and week night services, to visit the sick, and to look after the religious training of the young. These are the people who have again and again declared against the Church Establishment and against the application of tithes to the support of the Church, and these are the people whom you are going to fine for the benefit of the clergy. I think our position was very well defined by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham when he said that the great principle of religious equality was everywhere slowly undermining the fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. Yet you are now building up a fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. The right hon. Gentleman told us further that this principle of religious equality was fatal to all State Churches, and that it would surely be applied to the Church in England, Scotland, and Wales. He further went on to point out the sentiment of the people of the Principality was more unanimous and the anomalies of the present arrangement were more striking and irritating in Wales than elsewhere, and it had, therefore, the first claim to their sympathy and support in its efforts to free itself from a burden which recent events, and especially the tithe agitation, had shown to be almost intolerable to the vast majority of the population. Yet you are now proposing to add to that burden. Let us see what the Nonconformists have been doing in Wales. In 1775 there were only 171 Nonconformist congregations, in 1816 the number had increased to 993, and in 1861 it was 2,927, while in 1892 it has risen to 4,262. More than 3,000 Nonconformist places of worship have been built in Wales within the last eighty years. in 1859 the communicants belonging to the four leading Welsh denominations numbered 258,000; in 1892 they had increased to 381,000, an addition of 44½ per cent. Now Wales is a small country, and these figures show that Nonconformity has increased very rapidly. I remember that when this subject was last mentioned in the House, the hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea drew attention to the increase of churches in the Rhondda Valley, that being the best example of progress the Establishment has to present in Wales. What are the facts in regard to that? In the year 1866 there were in this Valley four churches and eleven chapels; in 1870 there were seven churches and twenty-one chapels; in 1884 there were eleven churches and ninety-eight chapels; and in 1892 the figures showed sixteen churches and 117 chapels. And that is in the very heart of Wales, where the Church prides itself on progress it has made. Now I would remind the Committee that this is only a temporary Bill. It is only to last for two years, and I do not think that, in the course of those two years, the positions of the Church and Nonconformity are likely to be altered relatively to any material extent. I wish to ask the Government is there any limit whatever to their desire to force measures of this kind upon Wales? We have asked for measures in which the Welsh people are interested, but every request of that kind has been refused, no matter how reasonable it may have been. We do not ask for this Bill; we only ask to be exempted from its operation, and surely that is a reasonable demand on our part. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not allow their hostility to Welsh Nonconformity to carry them beyond due bounds. They have a large majority; let them use it with mercy. Of course, if they choose to refuse every request that is made by the representatives of Wales, I can only warn them that the time is coming when the people of Wales will again vote against them with practical unanimity.
New clause (Extent of Act)—( Mr. Lewis )—brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment has spoken with much feeling of the work done by Welsh Nonconformists. I can assure him that he is mistaken in supposing there is on this side of the House any feeling of hostility towards Nonconformity in Wales. But there was one omission which I did note in his speech, and that was that he made no reference to the excellent work which has also been done by the Church of Wales. After all, we are not engaged upon a Disestablishment Bill. I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman in that portion of his speech, although I shall be prepared when the occasion arises to deal with that question. This Bill cannot be converted into a means of discussing the propriety of keeping up the Established Church in Wales, and everyone will agree that, as long as that Established Church exists, and as long as the clergyman in Wales is paid out of the tithe rent-charge, his grievance is exactly the same as that of his English brother. There is no possible difference. He does the same work, he is paid in the same way, and he has the same unjust burdens inflicted on him. We have decided that those burdens are unjust, and I confess it strikes me that this Amendment trenches most seriously upon the work which this Committee has already done. We have passed the first clause, providing that the owner of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice shall be relieved of one-half of his rates, and really it would have been better if the attempt to exclude Wales had been made when that clause was under consideration. This is an endeavour to go back upon what the Committee has already decided. With regard to the proposal that no deduction shall be made from the sums payable to local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire on account of the Estate Duty Grant, by reason of the passing of this Act, I think the hon. Member will see on reflection that he is mistaken in the idea that this money is taken directly from the Welsh ratepayers. As a matter of fact it is taken out of the sum which would otherwise go into the Local Taxation Account, and the burden is distributed over the whole country in a manner which we spent the greater part of yesterday in discussing. It is not a burden which is specially and exclusively inflicted on Wales. If I understand the latter part of the Amendment aright, it is proposed that there should be a modification of the Local Government Act, 1888, and that there should be an addition made to the sum given to each Welsh county. But we have already decided how the money required under this Bill is to be obtained, and I respectfully ask the Committee not to undo the work it did yesterday.
I do not pro-propose to detain the Committee many minutes, for I think the action of the representatives of Wales has been shown with sufficient vigour during these Debates. I should like, however, to say a few words in reply to the speech we have just listened to. I have not a single word to say against the Welsh clergy, but I will point out that, owing to the circumstances in which they are placed in regard to their religious work in Wales, it is absolutely impossible for them to do for Wales what is being done by their fellow clergy in England and elsewhere. What I wish to point out is that, whereas in England the country as a whole will subscribe to the carrying out of the financial proposals of this Bill, the same thing has to be done in Wales with this difference, that in England the feeling may not be so very strong againgst this Bill financially, whereas the feeling in Wales is overwhelmingly against it. There are two or three practical considerations to which I wish to direct the attention of the Committee. First of all, the financial position of Wales is not that of England. I do not say that Wales is a poor country, but it is much poorer than England, and less able to bear the burden which this Bill imposes. I will give the Committee two or three facts with regard to that point. In England income tax is paid at the rate of £6 4s. 2d. per head, whereas in Wales it is only £4 8s. 10d. In 1890, under Schedule D, England paid at the rate of £10 1s. 2d., and Wales at only £4 18s., or less than half. The next practical consideration is that the local authorities in Wales have made good use of the money handed to them through the Local Taxation Account. I do not suppose there is a single set of county councils which has so effectually and usefully expended the money at their command for the education and higher interests of the country than the Welsh County Councils. Further I would remind the Committee that the amount received from Treasury subventions in Wales is not as great as it is in England. In England the rate of 7½d. per head; in Wales in 1890 it was only 5¼d. The third point that I desire to make has reference to what has been done by Nonconformists in Wales. I do not know whether the Committee realises the extent of the sacrifices which the Nonconformists of Wales have made, and are prepared to make, for the higher interests of the country. In Wales the Welsh Presbyterians subscribed during last year nearly £250,000 for various religious purposes, and they are only one out of the four Nonconformist sects in Wales. Is it not strange, therefore, that this miserable pittance provided by the Bill should have to be paid by the general tax-payers of the country towards further increasing the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England? Further, with regard to the Welsh clergy, I believe, if I have not misread their character, that they will not personally welcome the financial proposals of this Bill. It must be remembered that the position of the Nonconformist Church in Wales is an essential factor in the Bill new before us. I wish to reiterate the point mentioned by my hon. friend, that the Established Church in Wales is in a decided minority; that it is the church of the rich, and that it has in the past ranged itself against the national aspirations of the country. That is an historical fact. On the other hand, we have the exceptional position occupied by the Nonconformists. They embrace the large majority of the people of the country, and they have also identified themselves very closely during the last fifty years with every effort to advance the higher interests of the country. Although I know this Bill is bound to pass, it remains the fact that the overwhelming feeling in Wales is against it. If it is unjust, as I believe it is to England, it is far more unjust to Wales. I myself am driven to the conclusion year by year that you will not be able to legislate in harmony with the feeling of the people of Wales until we have some fundamental change in the machinery of Parliament, and I am convinced that such a change must be made before Wales can realise her just aspirations. I beg to support the new clause.
I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to have some consideration for the people of Wales. You are imposing on Wales this Bill against which the Welsh peeple emphatically protest. It is a measure to subsidise the Church of England, and anybody who has the least acquaintance with Welsh social and political life knows perfectly well that one of the great causes of estrangement between Welshmen and Englishmen is the existence of the Established Church in Wales. This proposal may be said to be a somewhat small one and to affect a meritorious class, but small as it is it is none the less irritating. We ourselves complained not long ago against the policy of pin-pricks. This is something more than a pin-prick, because it is opposed to the national sentiment of the country, which has declared itself fully and emphatically against it. By this Bill you are, at the cost of Nonconformists and Churchmen alike, giving relief to the clergy of the Church of England. It is the Church of the rich, and in parish after parish in Wales you will find that the only persons who attend the church are the parson and his family and one or two country gentlemen. The Solicitor-General said that this was not a Disestablishment Debate. But Disestablishment is nevertheless somewhat involved in what we are doing to-night. It is perfectly true that in agricultural districts a considerable portion of the money required will come, not from the country districts, but from the towns; but, for all that, the country districts will still have to pay.
Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is straying from the point.
I was only replying to argument on the other side, but I will not pursue it. Another argument of the Solicitor-General was that the clergy grievance is the same in England and in Wales. We say that by the methods you are adopting you may remedy a clergy grievance, but you are creating a ratepayers' grievance, and therefore you are only shifting the burden. In Wales that grievance will be felt much more strongly than in England, because of the strong hostility between the Church of England and the other denominations. Now, I wish to make an appeal to Churchmen on the other side. Do they think they are really aiding the cause of the Church of England in supporting this Bill?
I must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the only question before the Committee is whether Wales should or should not be exempt from this Bill.
I was trying, I am afraid imperfectly, to bring forward reasons why Wales should be exempt, and I will conclude my remarks by an appeal to Churchmen, in the interests of the Church of England, to grant the concession asked for by this clause.
The reasons why this Amendment has been moved have been stated so fully and so well by several Members representing Welsh constituencies that it is not necessary for me, with less perfect knowledge, to go into them at length. Nobody can deny that this is a very reasonable and important Amendment. I am supporting it, politically speaking, very much against my own views, if I have any Party feeling in the matter. That which I should most desire is that this Amendment should be rejected, for I do not know anything that would have a greater effect in eradicating the tares which have been sown in the Liberal wheat in Wales. From that point of view the rejection of the Amendment would be advantageous. It is absolutely impossible that this Government could have proposed a measure which could be more bitterly opposed by the great majority of the people of Wales. The majority of the Welsh people are attached to Nonconformity. That will not be denied for a moment. Hitherto it has been the boast of the Church of England that it relied on its own pecuniary resources. But now for the first time a demand is made on the general taxpayer, who has no particular connection with the Church, to subsidise the clergy of the Established Church. That is an entirely new feature in the relations between the Church and the population, and the Church will no longer be able to say, like the Nonconformist denominations, that it costs nothing to the people. My opinion is that this is an act of injustice generally, but above all it is an act of special injustice to such a population as that of Wales. I have no desire to go into all the considerations which certainly, think, ought to give the Committee pause before passing such a measure as this against the will of the Welsh people. Never was a measure designed by the Imperial Parliament which has more wantonly and more unjustly irritated the sentiments of the Welsh people, and for that reason I shall heartily support the clause.
The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to us on behalf of Wales not to include Wales in this Bill. I am bound to say I am surprised at the grounds on which the right hon. Gentleman supported the claim made by the Welsh Members. The right hon. Gentleman has referred, as several hon. Members have referred, to the position of the Established Church in Wales, and to the power of the Nonconformists. As my hon. and learned friend said earlier in the evening, nobody here is prepared or desires to contest in the smallest degree the efforts made by Nonconformity in Wales for the progress of Christianity and education. On the contrary we desire heartily to endorse them. That, however is not a question which is germane to the discussion. The right hon. Gentleman, if he desired to support the case of Wales for exemption, ought at least to have shown that the Welsh clerical tithe-owner does not suffer under those disabilities which have been established over and over again during these Debates to exist with regard to clerical tithe-owners in England. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not attempted to show that there is any other ratepayer whose liability is the same as the clerical owner of tithe or who pays in the same proportion for local expenses. It is rather late in the day now to contest that. It is perfectly well known that the position of the owner of clerical tithe in Wales is not in any degree different from that of the owner of tithe rent-charge in England. No argument has been advanced against that, and that being the case I submit that no ground whatever has been made out for the acceptance of this clause. The Committee has already decided that a certain amount of rate should be repaid, and that a sum should be found from a particular source, and I submit that to exempt Wales on the ground that Nonconformity is in the majority, or that the Established Church is in a minority, or that sectarial differences of opinion, which I hope and believe are subsiding, exist is to make an unreasonable proposition which I hope the Committee will reject.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has talked about a subject of which he knows very little. ("No, no.") I do not suppose for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman will contend that he is an authority on ecclesiastical matters in Wales, I have already paid my tribute to the right hon. Gentleman on his conduct of this Bill, but as regards Wales he is not to be regarded as an authority at all. Without going over the ground so excellently traversed by my hon. friends, and so admirably dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, I will deal with the matter from a somewhat different standpoint. The case against the Bill does not merely depend upon the injustice of making Wales subscribe out of the taxation of the country for an alien church. If anything, it is still more unjust that the Welsh people should be called upon not merely to contribute to the Church in Wales, but also to contribute very largely to the maintenance of the Church in England. I desire to protest against these public moneys being given to the support of the Church in the Principality, but I still more strongly protest against taking public money out of the pockets of the Welsh taxpayers to support the Church in England. Now, the case lies in a nutshell. The parochial incumbents in Wales do not receive a very large amount of tithe. I believe it will be admitted that, on the whole, the Welsh clergyman has a smaller living on the average than the English clergyman. The whole amount of the tithe rent-charge in the twelve counties of the Principality is £237,000. Therefore, the sum given under this Bill, proportionately speaking, to the Welsh clergymen is not very large. I think the whole sum amounts to something liks £8,000. Twelve counties in England, however, receive in tithe rent-charge exactly ten times as much as the twelve in the Principality. So far as the individual clergyman is concerned, I do not think that many of us on this side of the House would object to the Welsh clergyman having the money. The individual parson in Wales is not a very unpopular person. He is rendered unpopular by reason of the fact that the Establishment is against him, but individually he is regarded as rather a good fellow. Hon. Members who know Wales best can testify to the fact that if there is a worthless son or scallywag he is sent to the Church, and, as a rule, on that very ground he is a very good fellow individually. Whatever you may say about Welsh clergymen, they are really not half as bad beggars as English clergymen are. They receive less money, and they do not complain. Moreover, the Welsh clergymen have not really asked for the money which you are going to give under this Bill. I am sure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea will not get up and say that there has been anything like the demand for this relief among the Welsh clergy that we have seen exhibited in England. But if the Welsh Church is increasing, as has been stated, why do not its supporters maintain their own clergymen if their clergymen desire a better living? I doubt very much whether the House will see going into the Division Lobby in favour of the Government and against this Amendment a single Member for a constituency in Wales. Those Gentleman dare not vote, if they desire to seek re-election, in favour of this Bill. I contend that a hardship arises not only because this money is taken from the pockets of the Welsh taxpayer for the benefit of the Welsh clergymen who are not asking for it, but that given is given in a much larger measure for the support of the clergy of the Church of England. I therefore hope we shall be perfectly solid in opposing the proposal of the Government.
In rising at this hour of the morning my only reason is that I want to enter my protest against any further endowment of the Church of England in Wales. Hon. and right hon. Members have said that Wales has no particular grounds of its own for rejecting this Bill. But allow me to say, Sir, that if there were but one, that one being that it is the Church of England in Wales, and not the Church of Wales in Wales, that is sufficiently differential to base upon the plea that it should not be forced upon the Principality. Some of my Welsh friends have urged the argument that the regrettable neglect by the Church of England of the interest of the Welsh people in Wales is a sufficient reason why this Bill should not be applied to Wales. To this I agree. And no one here cares to deny the facts, the historical facts regarding the neglect of the Church in Wales during this period. That regrettable fact is always kept green in the minds of the Welsh people that read the description given of that time by the hymnologist from Pantycelyn when he said—
"Pan oedd cymru gynt yn gonweder meion annuwiol farwol hun Heb na phrespitar na Fieirade Nac un Esgob ar ddihun."
(Loud laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but it is too true all the same. What further proof does this House need of the futility of the Church trying to teach the Welsh people religion in a foreign tongue than the fact that even hon. Members laugh at the very same tongue when now used? However, this is not the point I intended to urge upon the consideration of this House when I rose. I think that it is high time that this Debate was risen to a higher ground. The House, so far, has interested itself with what will be effect of this measure upon the mechanism of the Church; but I want to know what effect it will have upon the Church as a moral power in the land. I have been waiting to hear whether some of my Welsh friends on the other side would have a word to say in defence of the real Church in this matter. I freely admit that the Church in Wales has done some good there, during the last decade especially. And I cannot help thinking that that good will be sorely impeded by the effect of this Bill. I freely admit that I did not think there was so much in this Bill until I heard the important statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture when opposing the Amendment of the hon. gentleman the senior Member for Merthyr. He then said that if that Amendment was carried it would take away 50 per cent. of the funds available for the use of this Bill. If that be the case, and that 50 per cent. of the money for the relief of the clergy is going to come out of a fund which goes to the relief of the poor, what is to become of the relationship between the clergy—the incumbent, the vicar, and especially the curate—that administer to the poor, and the poor which they administer to? One of the great dignitaries of the Church said only the other day "that the people, and especially the poor among the people, should understand and feel that the Church existed for them." If, then, the clergy were going to curtail their contributions to the poor fund to the tune of between £40,000 and £50,000, would they expect the poor in the land to believe any longer that those clergy had any sympathy with them? If, then, the effect of this Bill will be to kill that good feeling between the clergy in the Church and the poor people which they administer to, what will become of the Church—the real moral power of that Church upon the poor which it professes to exist for? Cannot hon. and right hon. Members see that one of the direct effects of this must be to destroy the influence of the Church as a moral power in the land? I would, therefore, appeal to hon. Members for Wales to support this Amendment for the sake of the Church itself. And I would ask them, as members of the Church and its advocates in Wales, to well consider, before casting their votes in this matter, whether it is the interest of the clergy in the Church or the Church itself, including its poor, they are here to defend.
I very much regret that the Members of the Government have not thought fit to tackle the arguments which have been advanced by hon. Members for Wales in favour of this motion. The Solicitor-General objected to the Amendment on purely technical grounds, but surely this matter is far too important to be put aside by the raising of mere technicalities. It is a matter of justice to the whole of the people of the Principality, and a mere technical argument is not a sufficient answer. The President of the Board of Agriculture said that the mere fact that a vast majority of the Welsh people were opposed to the Establishment altogether was a perfectly irrelevant argument. But surely he cannot say that. We pay annually something like £300,000 to the Church out of our national endowment, and the Government come down, in spite of our protest, and say, "We ask you people in Wales to add to that endowment by £8,000 a year." That is a very unfair thing to do. They have excluded Ireland and they have excluded Scotland front the operation of the Bill, but every argument that can be advanced for excluding Ireland and Scotland can also be advanced for excluding Wales. This arrangement is repudiated by the vast majority of the Welsh people. A Welsh nobleman has written a letter within the last few days in which he says that, though a supporter of the Government, he has subscribed quite enough already to the Church of England in Wales, and will not subscribe a single penny piece more towards maintaining a Church whose doctrines are hostile to the Reformation. And yet the people of Wales, four-fifths of whom disbelieve the doctrines of the Church root and branch, are called upon to subscribe, not £50 or £100, but £8,000 a year towards the maintenance of this Church. Surely that is a monstrous proposition, especially in the present state of the Church of England in Wales and outside. I have not heard in the course of this Debate that the main principle laid down by hon. Members for Wales has been challenged, namely, that the vast majority of the people disavow the services of the Church. I submit that that is a very relevant consideration. What is the ground on which this Bill has been introduced? One is that it is for professional services rendered. Who, in Wales, has called for those services? Who wants them? The people say, "We don't want the services." Why should they be called upon to pay for them? How many people came before the Commission to represent the people of Wales? The only layman was the hon. Member for Tunbridge, but he is not a Welsh member. The hon. Member comes from Denbighshire. He toils night and day for the promotion of the interests of our National Church—of the National Church of the Welsh people, so we are told. And yet he has not been able to find a single seat in Wales to return him as a member! (Interruption.) Yes, the hon. Member has not tried, because he knows perfectly well he has not the remotest chance. If his views commended themselves to the people of Denbighshire, where he resides, surely with his ability he would have found a seat in that particular county. And who is the other witness who came before this Commission? He is a Welsh rector. What is his case? He is paid net tithe amounting to £279 2s. 2d. The whole population of his parish is about 450. Four-fifths of the population attend the Calvinistic Methodist place of worship, and very few of the rest ever attend the parish church. Here is a gentleman who is receiving £279 for his services for the whole of the parish, whilst the minister of the real parish church—the minister who attends to four-fifths of the population—is not paid one-half that this gentleman is paid. And yet the rector comes and says, "It is true I do not minister to this population, it is true that I only do one-fifth of the work for which I am paid, but I ask that you should give me a rise in my salary." It is exactly as if the Local Government Board were to impose a medical officer upon a particular district, and, in spite of the fact that the district did not want his services, did not believe in him, and preferred to pay their own doctor, were obliged to appoint him, and give him an increase of salary. Something has been said about hon. Members for Wales who sit on the opposite side. A short time the Leader of the Conservative party in Wales was in the House, but not a word has he said in support of this proposal. I should like to know what he has to say about this Amendment. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmmgham also present. There was a time when he raised his powerful voice in favour of the Welsh people, and when he insisted upon having their grievances redressed in regard to the Church: and yet he is now a member of a Government which seeks to aggravate that grievance, and to impose an additional tax of £8,000 in favour of the Church which he himself once regarded as a source of one of the greatest grievances of the Welsh people. I think we can appeal to him at any rate to put in one word in favour of the people of Wales in this matter. I venture to appeal to the Government, having exempted Ireland from the provisions of the Bill, and having exempted Scotland, to exempt Wales. We are asking nothing which is unfair. The Government have a perfectly loyal and law-abiding population to deal with, but instead of redressing their grievances they aggravate and intensify them by proposals of this character.
May I correct one figure? I gave the sum of £8,000 as being the amount of the tax made upon Wales in regard to this Bill. That figure, I believe, is more accurately stated at something under £6,000.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 120; Noes, 233. (Division List, No. 263.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Goddard, Daniel Frod Oldroyd, Mark Asher, Alexander Gurdon, Sir William Brampton O'Malley, William Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Barlow, John Emmott Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hedderwick, Thonms Chas.H. Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.) Power, Patrick Joseph Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Price, Robert John Birrell, Augustine Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Bolton, Thomas Dolling Joicey, Sir James Randell, David Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jones, David Brymnor (Swans'a Reckett, Harold James Burns, John Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Rickett, J. Compton Caldwell, James Kearley, Hudson E. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Kilbride, Denis Robson, William Snowdon Causton, Richard Knight Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Colville, John Leng, Sir John Soames, Arthur Wellesley Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Souttar, Robinson Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Spicer, Albert Crombie, John William Lloyd-George, David Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Curran, Thomas (Sligo,S.) Logan, John William Steadman, William Charles Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Stevenson, Francis S. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Macaleese, Daniel Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Davitt, Michael MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen's C) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Dewar, Arthur M'Crae, George Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. Dillon, John M'Dermott, Patrick Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr Donelan, Captain A. M'Ewan, William Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Doogan, P. C. M'Ghee, Richard Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Kenna, Reginald Wedderburn, Sir William Duckworth, James M'Leod, John Whiteley, George(Stockport) Dunn, Sir William Maddison, Fred. Williams, John Carvell(Notts) Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) Ellis, John Edward Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R. Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Evans, Sir F. H.(S'thampton) Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr) Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd Evershed, Sydney Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Woods, Samuel. Fenwick, Charles Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Yoxall, James Henry Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur Foster,Sir Walter(Derby Co.) O'Connor, T. P.(Liverpool) NOES. Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Bill, Charles Allsopp, Hon. George Banbury, Frederick George Blundell, Colonel Henry Anson, Sir William Reynell Barnes, Frederic Gorell Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Archdale, Edward Mervyn Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Arnold, Alfred Bartley, George C. T. Bousfield, William Robert Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Barton, Dunbar Plunket Brassey, Albert Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Beckett, Ernest William Brookfield, A. Montagu Baillie, JamesE. B.(Inverness) Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Bullard, Sir Harry Baird, John George Alexander Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Burdett-Coutt, W. Balcarres, Lord Beresford, Lord Charles Butcher, John George Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Carlile, William Walter Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Nicol, Donald Ninian Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Cecil Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence Pender, Sir James Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Percy, Earl Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Henderson, Alexander Pierpoint, Robert Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton) Charrington, Spencer Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Chelsea, Viscount Hobhouse, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E. Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Purvis, Robert Coddington Sir William Hornby, Sir William Henry Rankin, Sir James Coghill, Douglas Harry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Rentoul, James Alexander Cohen, Benjamin Louis Houston, R. P. Richards, Henry Charles Collins, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howell, William Tudor Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlep'l) Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. Compton, Lord Alwyne Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Round, James Cox, Irwin Edward (Bainbridge Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Royds, Clement Molyneux. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kemp, George Rutherford, John Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kenyon, James Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Curzon, Visconnt Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Kimber, Henry Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Dalkeith, Earl of Lafone, Alfred Seton-Karr, Henry Dalrymple, Sir Charles Laurie, Lieut.-General Sharpe, William Edward T. Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Simeon, Sir Barrington Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm.Edw.H. Skewes-Cox, Thomas Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) Doughty, George Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset Spencer, Ernest Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Llewelyn, Sir DillWyn-(Swan. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Doxford, William Theodore Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham Stephens, Henry Charles Drucker, A. Long, Rt.Hn Walter (L'pool.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Stock, James Henry Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lorne, Marquess of Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Elliot, Hon. H. Ralph Douglas Lowe, Francis William Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Fardell, Sir T. George Lowles, John Sutherland, Sir Thomas Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Loyd, Archie Kirkman Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Finch, George H. Lucas-Shadwell, William Thornton, Percy M. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Macartney, W. G. Ellison Tollemache, Henry James Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macdona John Cumming Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount Fison, Frederick William M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Malcolm, Ian Wanklyn, James Leslie Foster, Barry S. (Suffolk) Martin, Richard Biddulph Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe) Galloway, William Johnson Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent) Gedge, Sydney Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (CityofLnd.) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. Gilliat, John Saunders Milton, Viscount Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Milward, Colonel Victor Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm Goldsworthy, Major-General Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.) Willox, Sir John Archibald Gordon, Hon. John Edward Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (S. G'rge's More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. Wylie, Alexander Goulding, Edward Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham, George Graham, Henry Robert Morrison, Walter Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Green,WalfordD.(W'dnesbury Mount, William George Young, Commander (Berks, E. Greene, W. R.-(Cambs.) Muntz, Philip A. Greville, Hon. Ronald Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute Gull, Sir Cameron Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Nicholson, William Graham
I rise to move a motion on behalf of the officials of the House, most of whom have now been on duty fourteen hours. It was never intended that we should sit all night. That is not the usual interpretation of the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule; it was never intended to sit longer than a reasonable time, and have we not on the present occasion sat long enough? There are still several important clauses to be dealt with, and I beg to move that progress be reported and the Debate be adjourned.
Motion made and Question proposed—
"That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again."—( Mr. Dalziel. )
I do not propose to enter into any recriminatory matter. I would merely point out that although it is perfectly true that the inconvenience caused to all concerned is considerable, some hon. Members on the Opposition side insist upon obstructing the business, and there is no help but to sit on. This afternoon since four o'clock we have discussed a definition clause, a clause dealing with the title of the Bill, and a clause saying when it is to come into operation, and we have been discussing those three clauses ten hours.
I regret the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will not accede so reasonable a request. When we move Amendments he will not discuss them. As for the amount of work we have done to-night, we have passed three clauses, and in no single case in the time of the last Liberal Government were so many clauses passed at one sitting owing to the tactics of the Opposition. I ask the right hon. Gentleman most earnestly to listen to the appeal of my hon. friend.
I am personally no advocate of long sittings nor of delaying proceedings, and I am bound to say I do not think my hon. friend is unreasonable in asking the Government whether they intend to make the House sit until the rest of the Bill is dealt with. If that is their intention I protest against it. This is not an ordinary Bill; it is merely another added to the many instances I have known of dealing with a Bill before this House in any way but the straightforward way. All the ingenious devices which have been invented do not further the business at all. This Bill is known to be a most objectionable Bill to a large section of the House and country. There is tremendous feeling against it on this side of the House and on the Government side, and Conservative candidates who have stood in the country have repudiated it. I am bound to say I do not think it is respectful to the House for the First Lord of the Treasury to set himself against every Amendment for the purpose of avoiding a discussion on the Report stage, though no doubt it is a clever proceeding. Surely now he is not going to keep us here indefinitely? If he is, all we can do is to divide the House upon this motion, as a protest against such tactics.
I do think it is an unreasonable thing to ask Members to sacrifice their time and jeopardise their health in order that a measure not mentioned in the Queen's Speech should be forced through this House. The Government are acting most unreasonably in making these demands on the Committee and on private Members. Even if we are a minority, we are entitled to consideration. The Welsh Members have devoted to this matter attention and consideration which must have elicited admiration from all sides, while the Irish and Scotch Members have rendered what assistance they could in the Division Lobby. But to say that we shall be doing walking marches all night is an abuse of the power of a strong Government. I hope the Government will acknowledge the reasonableness of the proposal, and, instead of continuing this discussion at this hour, recognise that the Independent Members are entitled to some fair treatment, and ought not to be reduced to a condition of slavery, or at any rate called upon to bear the burdens of the Church Party by sacrificing their time, energy, and health.
I would venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the President of the Board of Agriculture. He has now gone out, doubtless, to seek a little well-deserved refreshment.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
He has been sitting in close attendance on this Bill, and I notice he is requested to attend at 11.45 this morning for the purpose of guiding his Lands Improvement Bill through the Standing Committee on Law. We have a great respect for the President of the Board of Agriculture, who is so interested in his Department, and we would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to spare him this unnecessary sitting up in the small hours of the morning.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 216. (Division List, No. 264.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W Asher, Alexander Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.) Power, Patrick Joseph Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Horniman, Frederick John Price, Robert John Barlow, John Emmott Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Joicey, Sir James Randell, David Billson, Alfred Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea) Reckitt, Harold James Birrell, Augustine Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire) Rickett, J. Compton Bolton, Thomas Dolling Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John H.(Denbighs) Burns, John Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Caldwell, James Lambert, George Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Langley, Batty Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford) Channing, Francis Allston Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Leng, Sir John Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshi'e Colville, John Leuty, Thomas Richmond Soames, Arthur Wellesley Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Souttar, Robinson Crilly, Daniel Lloyd-George, David Spicer, Albert Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Logan, John William Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Curran, Thomas(Sligo,S.) Lough, Thomas Steadman, William Charles Dalziel, James Henry Macaleese, Daniel Stevenson, Francis S. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Mac Donnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC. Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Davitt, Michael M'Crae, George Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Donelan, Captain A. M'Dermott, Patrick Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Doogan, P. C. M'Ewan, William Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Ghee, Richard Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Duckworth, James M'Kenna, Reginald Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Dunn, Sir William M'Leod, John Wedderburn, Sir William Edwards, Owen Morgan Maddison, Fred. Whiteley, George (Stockport) Ellis, John Edward Maden, John Henry Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Evans, Samuel T.(Glamotgan) Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) Evershed, Sydney Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Woodhouse SirJ. T (Huddersf'd Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith) Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport Woods, Samuel Flynn, James Christopher Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur. Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare NOES. Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden Brassey, Albert Curzon, Viscount Allsopp, Hon. George Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dalrymple, Sir Charles Anson, Sir William Reynell Brookfield, A. Montagu Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Archdale, Edward Mervyn Bullard, Sir Harry Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Arnold, Alfred Burdett-Coutts, W. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Carlile, William Walter Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Doughty, George Baird, John G. Alexander Cayzer, Sir Charles William Doughlas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Balcarres, Lord Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Doxford, William Theodore Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Drucker, A. Banbury, Frederick George Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Barnes, Frederic Gorell Charrington, Spencer Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts) Chelsea, Viscount Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph D. Bartley, George C. T. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fardell, Sir T. George Barton, Dunbar Plunket Coddington, Sir William Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finch, George H. Beckett, Ernest William Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Colomb, SirJohn Charles Ready Firbank, Joseph Thomas Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Compton, Lord Alwyne Fisher, William Hayes Beresford, Lord Charles Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Fison, Frederick William Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Blundell, Colonel Henry Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Bonsor, Henry Cosmo orme Galloway, William Johnson Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Gedge, Sydney Bousfield, William Robert Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gibbons, J. Lloyd Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham Ritchie, Rt. Hn. (Chas. Thomson Gilliat, John Saunders Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Round, James Goldsworthy, Major-General Lorne, Marquess of Royds, Clement(Molyneux) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lowe, Francis William Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Gosehen, R Hn. G. J. (St George's Lowles, John Rutherford, John Gosehen, George J.(Sussex) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Goulding, Edward Alfred Lucas-Shadwell, William Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Graham, Henry Robert Macartney, W.G. Ellison Saunderson, Rt Hon Col Edw. J. Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Macdona, John Cumming Seton-Karr, Henry Green, W. D.(Wednesbnry) Maclver, David (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinbugh W.) Skewes-Cox, Thomas Greville, Hon. Ronald Malcolm, Ian Smith, James P.(Lanarks.) Gull, Sir Cameron Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Spencer, Ernest Halsey, Thomas Frederick Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Milner, Sir Frederick George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Hanson, Sir Reginald Milton, Viscount Stock, James Henry Hardy, Laurence Milward, Colonel Victor Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Hare, Thomas Leigh Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Henderson, Alexander Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) More, Robt. Fasper (Shropshire Thornton, Percy M. Hobhouse, Henry Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh Tollemache, Henry James Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Morrell, George Herbert Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Hornby, Sir William Henry Morrison, Walter Valentia, Viscount Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wanklyn, James Leslie Houston, R. P. Mount, William George Ward, Hon. R. A.(Crewe) Howell, William Tudor Muntz, Philip A. Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent) Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Murray, C.J.(Coventry) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Nicholson, William Graham Williams, Colonel R.(Dorset) Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Nicol, Donald Ninian Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Willox, Sir John Archibald Kemp, George O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Wilson, John (Falkirk) Kenyon, James Pender, Sir James Wilson J. W. (Worcestersh., N.) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Pierpoint, Robert Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Kimber, Henry Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton Wylie, Alexander Lafone, Alfred Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wyndham, George Laurie, Lieut-General Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Lawson, John Grant(Yorks.) Purvis, Robert Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry Rankin, Sir James Young, Commander (Berks,E.) Lees, Sir Elliot(Birkenhead) Rentoul, James Alexander Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Richards, Henry Charles TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
The Amendment I have to move is one which will commend itself to all Members. It is a very well recognised view that, in order to have purity in dealing with public money, it is important that you should identify the persons to whom the money should go. In this instance you are providing considerable sums of money from public funds for the relief of certain clergymen in different counties and county boroughs in England Wales. It is obvious that it is desirable that the expenditure of these sums of money, coming as they do entirely out of the funds at the disposal of the councils, should be scrutinised with the same minuteness as is applied by these bodies to expenditure of their ordinary funds. I have here the accounts of the county council of my own county, and to give a specimen of the careful way in which the ratepayers are informed, not only of the amounts spent, but to whom they are given, I will give one or two items. There is an allowance of £1 15s. to a police-constable, 15s. to a lady, and £1 3s. 4d. to a P.C. Lewis, and so on. It is equally desirable that the clergy—who are public officers, now to receive distinct grants out of the public funds—should be shown in the same way in the accounts of the county councils from whom they receive the grants. I therefore move the Amendment.
New clause:—
"The Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall, not more than eight days after they have, under the provisions of this Act, paid any moneys in respect of any rate on tithe rent-charge, make out and forward to the council of the county borough or administrative county wherein the hereditaments out of which that tithe rent-charge arises are situate, a certificate stating the amount of the payment and the name of the benefice to which the tithe rent-charge is attached."—( Mr. Humphreys-Owen. )
Brought up and read the first time.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
The suggestion made in the proposed new clause is a very admirable one, but it is quite unnecessary; because, as a matter of fact, this information is conveyed at the present times and a Return as far as possible made to Parliament in each case for the purposes of those interested. The county councils will obtain information in precisely the same way as they now obtain information in regard to other payments. It would be extremely inconvenient and entirely contrary to practice to cast a statutory obligation upon a Government Department to make these Returns. The information must be provided, and will be provided. The Return will be made in the ordinary course of things, and when moved for by an ordinary Member it would be granted as an unopposed Return. I must therefore ask the Committee to reject this clause.
The right hon. Gentleman has altogether failed to see the real reason why this additional check is required. He says the matter is without precedent, but I am inclined to think that the whole of the first clause of this Bill, so far as the machinery is concerned, is without precedent, when one comes to consider how the matter will work out in practice from the point of view of the local government authorities. The Bill says:
"The remaining half shall, on demand being made by the collector of rates on the Surveyor of Taxes for the district, be paid by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account."
The reason my hon. friend desires that there should be within eight days a communication from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to the County Council, is to see that there is nothing irregular, either on the part of the tithe-owner, the collector of rates, or the Surveyor of Taxes. It is useless to tell us that if we desire to see that the Act is applied with absolute accuracy we may correct the matter about twelve months after the transaction by asking for a Return in Parliament, which everybody knows we cannot get unless the Government of the day happen to consent to it. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mover of this clause is actuated purely and solely by the desire to get the measure into working shape, and to prevent any irregularities whatsoever.
Under this Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are to be called upon to pay, not to the county to which it belongs, or ought to belong, but to somebody else, a large sum Of money. Is it unfair to ask that the county council should be informed of what has become of this money? There could not be a more reasonable or necessary Amendment than this proposed new clause. The right hon. Gentleman said there is no precedent for such a course. That cannot be so. Constantly, in Irish and in English Acts of Parliament, you have an obligation put upon public bodies to make Returns to Parliament, and Returns are constantly made. We are told that the information will be laid upon the Table of the House in the shape of Returns. But it is important, in order to have a check upon these various claims which will be made for the remission of half the rates, to have not merely the total amount given, but the individual items. I do not know whether the local authorities are bound to give the particulars of the various benefices to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue: we have not been told that they must. All the rating authorities have to do is to certify what is the amount they require to make up the half of the rates they have remitted, and the Commissioners are bound to pay that sum. If they refused, there would be a remedy against them in the Courts of Law by mandamus or otherwise. What check have they that the half of the rates which are asked for are rates which have to be remitted? But if you, by this clause, compel them to make this Return to the county councils, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be entitled to ask the various rating authorities for the particulars showing how the sum asked for is made up. Supposing this were money belonging to an individual instead of to a county council, can anybody say, with any fairness at all, that it is not right and proper that the individual who otherwise would have received the money should have a full and detailed account of the money which has been paid to somebody else on his behalf? That is the sole object of the clause. If this is a reasonable and proper Amendment, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted it is, it ought to be inserted in the Bill. The object of the Government in refusing these Amendments is to avoid the Report stage, when we could again bring forward our arguments. That is the object of the Report stage. The Government, if they are logical, will move that hereafter there shall be no Report stage at all. That is a much better and simpler way, and if they did that they would be forging a weapon which we should be able to use against them at no very distant date.
I had thought myself of moving an Amendment, for the county councils are really anxious that there shall not be more money deducted from their local funds than is absolutely necessary, and they want a thoroughly efficient check over the money taken out of the Local Taxation Account. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of putting into the Bill some machinery whereby a greater check can be placed upon the expenditure of this money. This is a matter of great importance to the county council, and the suggestion I have made is one which has the approval of the officials of the Devon County Council.
I think the Amendment of my hon. friend is a very important one, which everyone must see is absolutely necessary if the county council is to have any check upon the expenditure of the money. This money belongs to the county council in the first place, and we propose to intercept money which should go into the county fund, and the proposal is that every collector of taxes should make a Return to the county council to show exactly the amount of money that is charged to that particular county. I may say that that is what is done at the present time in reference to main roads. I can conceive of a large amount of money being charged if the collectors were so inclined, for they could send anything up to the Inland Revenue Commissions unless the county council had some check over them. I think this is a very important Amendment, and I hope my hon. friend will press it to a Division.
No matter what protests we may make, it seems to me that the Committee stage is practically passed, for the Government have decided to refuse all Amendments, no matter how important they are. The right hon. Gentleman admits that this is a very reasonable Amendment.
What I said was, that what the hon. Member desired was reasonable, but his Amendment was perfectly unnecessary.
The right hon. Gentleman admits that the object at which my hon. friend is aiming is perfectly reasonable, therefore it seems to me that he ought to accept this Amendment. We want to see that these accounts are properly kept, and, above all, I desire that the Inland Revenue Commissioners and the rating authorities should be perfectly certain that the moneys should be collected from the proper quarter, and for this reason I shall support the Amendment. I also desire that the ratepayers in the locality should know the names of these gentlemen who, in future, will receive outdoor relief at our expense, and I wish to see their names published, so that we shall know whom we have got to keep out of our hard earnings.
I rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman what he means when he says that this new clause is unnecessary, for in his first speech he told us the suggestion was an admirable one. He says that this will be carried out by the Bill as it stands, but is the right hon. Gentleman accurate when he says that? My hon. friend asks that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall within eight days send a Return of where the money has been expended. That certainly will not be carried out by the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. As you are taking money from the ratepayers in certain areas, surely it is a small request to ask that you should give them an account within a reasonable time as to how the money has been spent. I think the Amendment is quite reasonable, but reasonableness has no attraction so far as this Committee is concerned.
What I desire to see is that some sound financial position should be adopted. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to speak on behalf of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but I think he ought to assure us that at least attention has been properly given by the Government to this question.
I cannot possibly undertake to say that this can be done, because it would be clearly against the best possible information and advice we have received with regard to the operation of this Act.
The position now taken up by the right hon. Gentleman is that he will give us information and let us know something about what happens in good time, but our point is will he give information with regard to each individual case? In the Education Department we get Returns with regard to every school board in the country, and we get full information with regard to the different grants. But in regard to Voluntary schools an attempt was made to secure a Return in regard to voluntary subscriptions, but we have not been able to get any information. We have made an appeal upon this question to the Vice-President of the Council, but he refers us to somebody else, and nobody seems prepared to carry out the promise which was given us to supply this information in regard to the Voluntary schools. We know from experience the value of these indefinite vague undertakings. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture gave us his word we know what it would mean, but he declines to give it. I remember what happened when one of the great measures of this Government dealing with prison made goods was passed by this House. The President of the Board of Trade then undertook that he would give us a Return as to the operation of the Bill, and we asked for a statutory obligation to that effect. The President of the Board of Trade promised to give us that Return, but it has never been published up to this day. If a statutory obligation had been inserted in that Bill, we should have had that Return, and the Department dare not have refused it; but we have been relying upon these vague voluntary promises which are never carried out. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to carry out his promise, but it has not been done.
Will the hon. Gentleman quote the promise?
I cannot turn up the passage in Hansard just at the moment, but I will ask the right hon. Gentleman if he denies that he promised that such a Return would be made?
What Return?
It was a Return as to the goods manufactured in foreign prisons. In the Bill we are now considering, the county council has no opportunity of scrutinising and overhauling these proceeding. I would point out to the Committee that merely providing for accounts from the surveyor of taxes is not a sufficient guarantee that the thing will be done thoroughly, for sometimes you get very competent officials and sometimes you do not. Occasionally you get gentlemen who are strongly in sympathy with the local clergymen. In some areas you have got forty or fifty parishes, and how is the surveyor of taxes going to examine the separate accounts kept in all those parishes, for it is no business of the collectors to audit the accounts, for his duty is simply to get as much money as he can out of the Government. Therefore, the surveyor of taxes has no access to the assessment account except by making a visit to each of these forty or fifty parishes, which is practically impossible. The result will be that under the proposal of the Government these duties will be perfunctorily performed, and these demand notes presented by the local collector of taxes will be accepted without any scrutiny at all, because the account will be paid by someone in London. This is the way in which the finances of the country are to be conducted, and I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can produce a single precedent for this proposal. Somebody should be appointed to inquire into the matter. When the Agricultural Rating Bill was before the House we raised the point then. We said we had really no check. But we were told we had the surveyor of taxes. I make no complaint against the surveyor of taxes, but you are asking him to do a thing for which he has no machinery or officers on which to rely. If the clause of my hon. friend were adopted, it would be a totally different thing. The county councils have representatives in every parish, and they could make inquiries. Supposing a Return came down, in eight days the Members of the Finance Committee coming from every part of the country would go through the accounts, and carefully scrutinise the demand. These safeguards are not desired by the Government. All they require is that their friends should pillage all they can out of the taxation of the country.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be, now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 265.)
AYES. Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Doughty, George. Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Archdale, Edward Mervyn Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Arnold, Alfred Doxford, William Theodore Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Drucker, A. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Col. Charles W. (Eveshan Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Liverpool Baird, J. George Alexander Finch, George H. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Barres, Lord Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lorne, Marquess of Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lowe, Francis William Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Fisher, William Hayes Lowles, John Banbury, Frederick George Fison, Frederick William Lucas-Shadwell, William Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts.) Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Bartley, George C.T. Galloway, William Johnson Macdona, John Cumming Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gedge, Sydney MacIver, David (Liverpool) Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H. (Br'st'l) Gibbons, J. Lloyd M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.) Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Malcolm, Ian Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goldsworthy, Major-General Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Beresford, Lord Charles Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo,'s Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Milner, Sir Frederick George Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Graham, Henry Robert Milton, Viscount Bousfield, William Robert Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Milward, Colonel Victor Brassey, Albert Green, Walford D.(Wedn'sbury Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs). More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) Brookfield, A. Montagu Greville, Hon. Ronald Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Bullard, Sir Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Morrell, George Herbert Burdett-Coutts, W. Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morrison, Walter Carlile, William Walter Halsey, Thomas Frederick Morton, Arthur HA (Deptford) Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Mount, William George Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. Muntz, Philip A. Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald Murray, Rt Hn. A. Grahm. (Bute Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Henderson, Alexander Nicholson, William Graham Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Nicol, Donald Ninian Charrington, Spencer Hobhouse, Henry Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. Chelsea, Viscount Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Hornby, Sir William Henry Pender, Sir James Cohen, Benjamin Louis Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pierpoint, Robert Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howell, William Tudor Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton) Colomb, Sir John C. Ready Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Platt-Higgins, Frederick Compton, Lord Alwyne Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Purvis, Robert Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Rankin, Sir James. Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rentoul, James Alexander Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Richards, Henry Charles Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kemp, George Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l Curzon, Viscount Kenyon, James Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Kimber, Henry Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lafone, Alfred Round, James Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Laurie, Lieut.-General Royds, Clement Molynenx Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Rutherford, John Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Willox, Sir John Archibald Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles Thornton, Percy M. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N. Seton-Karr, Henry Tollemache, Henry James Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Simeon, Sir Barrington Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wylie, Alexander Skewes-Cox, Thomas Valentia, Viscount Wyndham, George Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Wanklyn, James Leslie Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Spencer, Ernest Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent Young, Commander(Berks.E.) Stanley, Hon. Arthr. (Ormskirk Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Stock, James Henry Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm NOES. Abraham, W. (Rhondda) Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph Asher, Alexander Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Price, Robert John Austin, M. (Limerick, W) Joicey, Sir James Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Barlow, John Emmott Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea) Randell, David Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Reckitt, Harold James Billson, Alfred Kilbride, Denis Rickett, J. Compton Birrell, Augustine Labouchere, Henry Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Bolton, Thomas Dolling Lambert, George Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees) Burns, John Langley, Batty Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Caldwell, James Lawson-Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Channing, Francis Allston Leuty, Thomas Richmond Sinclair, Capt, John (Forfarshire Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness) Lewis, John Herbert Soames, Arthur Wellesley Colville, John Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson Condon, Thomas Joseph Logan, John William Spicer, Albert Crilly, Daniel Macaleese, Daniel Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Curran, Thomas(Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC) Steadman, William Charles Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stevenson, Francis S. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Dermott, Patrick Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Davitt, Michael M'Ewan, William Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Donelan, Captain A. Ghee, Richard Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Leod, John Warner, Thomas CourtenayT. Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Wedderburn, Sir William Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Whiteley, George (Stockport) Ellis, John Edward Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.) Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudder'd Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur. Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Pilkington, Sir G. A (Lancs, S W)
Question put accordingly, "That the clause be read a second time."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 202. (Division List, No. 266.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Asher, Alexander Dalziel, James Henry Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n) Horniman, Frederick John Barlow, John Emmott Davitt, Michael Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Donelan, Captain A. Joicey, Sir James Billson, Alfred Doogan, P. C. Jones, David Brynmor (Swans.) Birrell, Augustine Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire Bolton, Thomas Dolling Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis Burns, John Edwards, Owen Morgan Labouchere, Henry Caldwell, James Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Langley, Batty Channing, Francis Allston Fenwick, Charles Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Colville, John Flynn, James Christopher Leuty, Thomas Richmond Condon, Thomas Joseph Goddard, Daniel Ford Lewis, John Herbert Crilly, Daniel Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Lloyd-George, David Pease, J. A. (Northumb.) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Logan, John William Pickersgill, Edward Hare Steadman, William Charles Macaleese, Daniel Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W) Stevenson, Francis S. MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C Power, Patrick Joseph Stuart, James (Shoreditch) M'Crae, George Price, Robert John Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) M'Dermott, Patrick Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) M'Ewan, William Randell, David Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) M'Ghee, Richard Reckitt, Harold James Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. M'Kenna, Reginald Rickett, J. Compton Wedderburn, Sir William M'Leod, John Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.) Whiteley, George(Stockport) Maddison, Fred. Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, John Carvell (Notts.) Maden, John Henry Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r Shaw, Charles E.(Stafford) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Yoxall, James Henry Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Nussey, Thomas Willans Soames, Arthur Wellesley TELLERS FOR THE AYES— O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Souttar, Robinson Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur Oldroyd, Mark Spicer, Albert NOES. Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Kimber, Henry Anson, Sir William Reynell Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lafone, Alfred Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doughty, George Laurie, Lieut.-General Arnold, Alfred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, William Theodore Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Drucker, A. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Baird, John George Alexander Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Balcarres, Lord Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed ward Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Finch, George H. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l) Banbury, Frederick George Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Fisher, William Hayes Lorne, Marquess of Bartley, George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Lowe, Francis William Barton, Dunbar Plunket Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lowles, John Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Galloway, William Johnson Lucas-Shadwell, William Beckett, Ernest William Gedge, Sydney Macartney, W. G. Ellison Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gibbons, J. Lloyd Macdona, John Cumming Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon) MacIver, David (Liverpool) Beresford, Lord Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. M'Iver, Sir L.(Edinburgh, W.) Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goldsworthy, Major-General Malcolm, Ian Blundell, Colonel Henry Goschen, Rt. Hn G J (St George's Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F. Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Bousfield, William Robert Goulding, Edward Alfred Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J. Brassey, Albert Graham, Henry Robert Mildmay, Francis Bingham Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Milner, Sir Frederick George Brookfield, A. Montagu Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Milton, Viscount Bullard, Sir Harry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Milward, Colonel Victor Burdett-Coutts, W. Greville, Hon. Ronald Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Carlile, William Walter Gull, Sir Cameron More, Robert J.(Shropshire) Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'th S h Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Morrell, George Herbert Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Morrison, Walter Cecil, Evelyn(Hertford, East) Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. Morton, Arthur HA(Deptford) Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hanson, Sir Reginald Mount, William George Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hardy, Laurence Muntz, Philip A. Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt. Hn. A.G.(Bute) Charrington, Spencer Henderson, Alexander Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Chelsea, Viscount Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Murray, Col. W yndham(Bath) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hobhouse, Henry Nicholson, William Graham Cohen, Benjamin Louis Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Nicol Donald Ninian Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hornby, Sir William Henry Northcote, Hon Sir H Stafford Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Compton, Lord Ailwyn Howell, William Tudor Pender, Sir James Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pierpoint, Robert Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton) Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Platt-Higgins, Frederick Cross, Alexander(Glasgow) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Cubitt, Hon. Henry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Purvis, Robert Curzon, Viscount Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Rankin, Sir James Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kemp, George Rentoul, James Alexander Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chat.) Kenyon, James Richards, Henry Charles Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Richardson, Sir Thos(Hartlop'l Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chs. Thomson Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.) Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Stock, James Henry Willox, Sir John Archibald Round, James Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wilson, John (Falkirk) Royds, Clement Molyneux Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Rutherford, John Thornton, Percy M. Wylie, Alexander Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Tollemache, Henry James Wyndham, George Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles Tominson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Seton-Karr, Henry Valentia, Viscount Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Simeon, Sir Barrington Wanklyn, James Leslie Young, Commander(Berks,E.) Skewer-Cox, Thomas Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Smith, Hon. W.F. D.(Strand) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Spencer, Ernest Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd
moved, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again," but the Chairman, being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.
The next Amendment in order is the second Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Glamorganshire.
On a point of order, I wish to ask whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Shoreditch is not in order. What he proposes is to insert the following clause:
"For the purposes of this Act returns shall be made annually, and presented to Parliament by the Local Government Board—
That is taken bodily out of the Agricultural Rating Act, and is for a similar purpose. Therefore I submit it is in order and not inconsistent with anything that has been done.
That Amendment deals with the same subject matter as the clause which the Committee has just refused to accept. The subject is not dealt with in the same way, but the subject matter is the same, and the clause should properly come as an Amendment to the clause which has been rejected.
If this Amendment were in the hands of anyone else I should be inclined to describe it as a most important Amendment, and I should deplore that it had to be taken at such an hour of the morning. It is not my fault that the clause smacks of language somewhat of an ecclesiastical character, but it is absolutely accurate in accordance with the form of the writ in such cases. The clause reads as follows:—
"This Act shall not apply while the said tithe rent-charge, or any other fruits, profits, oblations, obventions, ecclesiastical rights, or emoluments of or attaching to the benefice shall be sequestered by a writ of fieri facias de bonis ecclesiasticis or any other writ of sequestration."
Sequestration in clerical affairs is really bankruptcy. If a man in such circumstances were not a clergyman he would be called a bankrupt. The reason why a separate writ has to be issued is that a clergyman's goods are supposed to be of a somewhat sacred character, and are not to be touched by lay hands. In ordinary life a man whose goods are seized by an Official Receiver is termed a bankrupt, and he is not able to fulfil ordinary civic duties or obligations. If he be a member of a school board or of a board of guardians he ceases to be a member. A Member of this House may be guilty of all sorts of things, but he must not be a bankrupt. If he is he ceases to be a Member. But, curiously enough, until the Clergy Discipline Act of a few years ago a living could not by any proceeding be taken out of the hands of the holder of a benefice even though he were a bankrupt. Even now a distinction is made. It is assumed unless the bishop takes proceedings that a clergyman is fit to preach to his congregation that they ought to pay their debts, and to render unto Cæsar that which is his, although he himself cannot pay his creditors. Under such circumstances it cannot be right that the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice which is sequestrated should be free from rates. Everyone will admit that. When he ceases to enjoy the profits of the benefice by reason of having got into difficulties with his creditors, surely the reason for exemption no longer applies, and there is no reason why the creditors should be entitled to the relief. Everything that he has is seized under this writ.
New clause (provisions as to sequestrated benefices)—( Mr. Samuel Evans )—brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The hon. Member has forgotten that a writ of sequestration is an execution rather than a bankruptcy. I trust he will not seriously press this clause. May I point out that the maintenance of proper services in the parish is a first charge on the revenue of the living, even though it be under sequestration. Sequestration, too, does not last a very long time, for, if it is likely to, then provision is made for removing the clergyman from the benefice. Take an ordinary case where a writ is in force for a short time. Surely it would be extremely inconvenient to have to make a certain abatement of rates for say a period of six weeks? Would it not be more convenient that the same rule should continue to apply, even if there be a temporary execution in force? I hope the hon. and learned Member will not press the Amendment.
The suggestion of the Solicitor-General seems to be that, inasmuch as a writ of sequestration only lasts a short period, this Amendment is unnecessary. But this Bill is also only to last a brief time, and it is quite possible that a writ of sequestration may run the whole length of its duration. I think my hon. friend has made out a clear case in favour of this Amendment, although it is evident that the Government had determined to accept no alteration that is proposed, however valuable it may be.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 201. (Division List, No. 267.)
AYES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Nussey, Thomas Willans Asher, Alexander Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Austin, M.(Limerick, W.) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Oldroyd, Mark Barlow, John Emmott Hornman, Frederick John Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb. Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire) Humpheys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Billson, Alfred Joicey, Sir James Pilkingion, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W Birrell, Augustine Jones, David B.(Swansea) Power, Patrick Joseph Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones, W.(Carnarvonshire) Price, Robert John. Burns, John Kilbriile, Denis Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Randell, David Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lambert, George Reckitt, Harold James Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Rickett, J. Compton Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.) Colville, John Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Dalziel, James Henry Logan, John William Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan) Macaleese, Daniel Soames, Arthur Wellesley Davitt, Michael Mac Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Q's C.) Souttar, Robinson Donelan, Captain A. M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Spicer, Albert Doogan, P. C. M'Crae, George. Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles Duckworth, James M'Ewan, William Steadman, William Charles Edwards, Owen Morgan M'Ghee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S. Ellis, John Edward M'Leod, John Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Fenwick, Charles Maddison, Fred. Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) Maden, John Henry Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, W. P. (Merthr) Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport) Wedderburn, Sir William Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Whiteley, George(Stockport) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. M'Kenna. Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Yoxall, James Henry NOES. Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Galloway, Wm. Johnson Morrell, George Herbert Anson, Sir William Reynell Gedge, Sydney Morrison, Walter Archdale, Edward Mervyn Gibbons, J. Lloyd Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Arnold, Alfred Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond. Mount, William George Arnold-Foster, Hugh O. Godson, Sir A. Frederick Muntz, Philip A. Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Goldsworthy, Major-General Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Bagot, Captain J.FitzRoy Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Baird, John George A. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Balcarres, Lord Goulding, Edward Alfred Nicholson, William Graham Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Man'r Graham, Henry Robert Nicol, Donald Ninian Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. Banbury, Frederick George Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Pender, Sir James Bartley, George C. T. Greville, Hon. Ronald Pierpoint, Robert Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gull, Sir Cameron Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Platt-Higgins, Frederick Beckett, Ernest William Halsey, Thomas Frederick Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Purvis, Robert Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Rankin, Sir James Beresford, Lord Charles Hanson, Sir Reginald Rentoul, James Alexander Bhownagree, Sir M. M. Hardy, Laurence Richards, Henry Charles Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W Bousfield, William Robert Hobhouse, Henry Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson Brassey, Albert Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hornby, Sir William Henry Round, James Brookfield, A. Montagu Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Royds, Clement Molyneux Bullard, Sir Harry Howell, William Tudor Russell, T. W.(Tyrone) Burdett-Coutts, W. Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Rutherford, John Carlile, William Walter Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Seton-Karr, Henry Cayzer, Sir Charles William Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Simeon, Sir Barrington Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Skewes-Cox, Thomas Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Kemp, George Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. Chamberlan, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Kenyon, James Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand) Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Kenyon-Slaney Col. William Spencer, Ernest Charrington, Spencer Kimber, Henry Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Chelsea, Viscount Lafone, Alfred Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Laurie, Lieut.-General Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Stock, James Henry Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Compton, Lord Alwyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Thornton, Percy M. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Tollemache, Henry James Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wanklyn, James Leslie Curzon, Viscount Lorne, Marquess of Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lowe, Francis William Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Lowles, John Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lucas-Shadwell, William Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield- Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Doughty, George Maclver, David(Liverpool) Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb,W.) Willox Sir John Archibald Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Malcolm, Ian Wilson, John (Falkirk) Doxford, William Theodore Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N. Drucker, A. Meysey-Thompson Sir H M. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Wylie, Alexander Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wymdham, George Finch, George H. Milner, Sir Frederick George Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milton, Viscount Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Firbank, Joseph Thomas Milward, Colonel Victor Young, Commander (Berks, E.) Fisher, William Hayes Moon, Edward Robert Pacy TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Fison, Frederick William More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
The remaining clauses on the Paper are out of order.
Perhaps, Sir, you have overlooked the Amendment standing in my name, which I have been waiting here three weary days to propose. The new clause I wish to propose is—
"The county council of any county may determine by resolution that the provisions in this Act contained shall not for the time being, and until the resolution is rescinded, apply within the area of the county."
It should have come on as a proviso at the end of the first clause.
Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 189; Noes, 94. (Division List, No. 268).
AYES. Allhusen, Augstus Hen. Eden Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doxford, William Theordore Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Arnold, Alfred Drucker, A. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Finch, George H. Lorne, Marquess of Baird, John George Alexander Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowe, Francis William Balcarres, Lord Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lowles, John Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Fisher, William Hayes Lucas-Shadwell, William Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Fison, Frederick William Macartney, W. G. Ellison Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Foster, Colonel(Lancaster) Macdona, John Cumming Bartley, George C.T. Galloway, William Johnson MacIver, David (Liverpool) Burton, Dunbar Plunket Gedge, Sydney M'Iver, Sir Lewis Edinb'h, W.) Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Gibbons, J. Lloyd Malcolm, Ian Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Maysey-Thompson, Sir M. H. Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goldsworthy, Major-General Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John Beresford, Lord Charles Goschen, Ht Hn G J (St George's) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Milner, Sir Frederick George Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Milton, Viscount Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Graham, Henry Robert Milward, Colonel Victor Bousfield, William Robert Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Brassey, Albert Green, W. D.(Wednesbury) More, Rbt. Jasper (Shropshire) Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.) Brookfield, A. Montagu Greville, Hon. Ronald Morrell, George Herbert Bullard, Sir Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Morrison, Walter Burdett-Coutts, W. Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Carlile, William Walter Halsey, Thomas Frederick Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. Nicol, Donald Ninian Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Chaloner, Captain R. G.W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Pender, Sir James Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Pierpoint, Robert Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r Hobhouse, Henry Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton) Charrington, Spencer Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Chelsea, Viscount Hornby, Sir William Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Purvis, Robert Cohen, Benjamin Louis Howell, William Tudor Rentoul, James Alexander Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil Richards, Henry Charles Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Richardson, Sir Thos (Hartlep'l) Compton, Lord Alwyne Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W. Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Ritchie, Rt. Hon Charles T. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Round, James Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kemp, George Royds, Clement Molyneux Curzon, Viscount Kenyon, James Russell, T. W.(Tyrone) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Rutherford, John Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Kimber, Henry Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Lafone, Alfred Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thomas M. Dighy, John K. D. Wingfield- Laurie, Lieut.-General Simeon, Sir Barrington Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Skewes-Cox, Thomas Doughty, George Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Smith, James P. (Lanarks) Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand) Tollemache, Henry James Willox, Sir John Archibald Spencer, Ernest Tomlinson, Wm. Edward M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Stanley, Hon. A.(Ormskirk) Valentia, Viscount Wylie, Alexander Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Wyndham, George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. Stock, James Henry Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Young, Commander(Berks, E.) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) Thornton, Percy M. Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.) NOES. Abraham, William (Rhondda) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Power, Patrick Joseph Asher, Alexander Joicey, Sir James Price, Robert John Austin, M.(Limerick, W.) Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Barlow, John Emmott Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Randell, David Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Kilbride, Denis Reckitt, Harold James Billson, Alfred Labouchere, Henry Rickitt, J. Compton Birrell, Augustine Lambert, George Roberts, John H. (Denbighs). Bolton, Thomas Dolling Langley, Batty Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Burns, John Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh) Caldwell, James Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford) Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leuty, Thomas Richmond Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. Colville, John Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson Condon, Thomas Joseph Logan, John William Spicer, Albert Crilly, Daniel Macaleese, Daniel Steadman, William Charles Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr M A (Qneen's C) Stevenson, Francis S. Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n M'Dermott, Patrick Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Davitt, Michael M'Ewan, William Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Leod, John Wedderburn, Sir William Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Williams, John Carvell (Notts. Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.) Ellis, John Edward Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr) Wilson, John (Falkirk) Evans, S. T.(Glamorgan) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, J.(Wicklow, W.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H Pickersgill, Edward Hare Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur. Horniman, Frederick John Pilkington, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W
House resumed.
On a point of order may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, the Twelve o'clock rule having been suspended in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge Bill, it is competent to go on to the next Order of the day? I consider that the Government ought to consult the convenience of Members in all parts of the House.
I have not the least objection, to-day being Friday, and in the exceptional circumstances of the case, to move the adjournment of the House.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Mr. A. J. Balfour. )
On the question of adjournment, I should wish to make a personal explanation to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. I stated in the course of the discussion of one of the Amendments that he had given a pledge that certain Returns which had been asked for would be made, and I suggested that that pledge had not been redeemed. I fully admit now that the right hon. Gentleman had fulfilled his pledge.
was understood to say that he accepted the explanation of the hon. Member for Carnarvon.
Question put and agreed to.
House adjourned accordingly at five minutes after Four of the clock in the morning.