Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 86: debated on Monday 23 July 1900

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Monday, 23rd July, 1900.

Private Bill Business

Private Bills Lords (Standing Orders Not Previously Inquired Into Complied With)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—

Sunderland Corporation Bill [Lords].

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

Provisional Order Bills Lords (Standing Orders Applicable Thereto Complied With)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—

  • Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3) Bill [Lords].
  • Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 4) Bill [Lords].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.

Hastings Tramways Bill

Lambeth Water Bill

Lancashire, Derbyshire, And East Coast Railway Hill

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Bury And District Water (Transfer) Bill Lords

Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Barnsley Corporation Bill Lords

Dublin, Wicklow, And Wexford Railway Bill Lords

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

London, Walthamstow, And Epping Forest Railway (Abandonment) Hill

Not amended, considered.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

North British Railway Bill Lords

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Preston Corporation Bill Lords

As amended, considered; Amendments made.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Ramsgate Corporation Improve Ments Hill Lords

Rotherhithe And Ratcliff Tunnel Bill Lords

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Bournemouth Corporation Bill Lords

Read a second time, and committed.

Crystal Palace Company Bill Lords

Read a second time, and committed.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and that the Com-

8

mittee on the Bill have leave to sit and proceed forthwith.—( Mr. Caldwell)

Brompton And Piccadilly Circus Railway Bill

Order [12th February] referring the Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway Bill to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Buenos Ayres And Rosario Railway Bill Lords

Ordered, That Standing Orders 211 and. 236 be suspended, and that the Committee on the Buenos Ayres and Rosario Railway Bill [Lords] have leave to sit. and proceed forthwith.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited, Bill Lords

Ordered, That Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and that the Committee on the Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited, Bill [Lords] have leave to sit and proceed forthwith.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Roe's Patent Bill Lords

Ordered, That Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and that the Committee on Roe's Patent Bill [Lords] have leave to sit and proceed forthwith.—( Mr. Caldwell.)

Local Government Provisional, Orders (No 1) Bill

Pier And Harbour Provisional Orders (No 2) Bill

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Tramways Orders Confirmation (No 1) Bill Lords

As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.

Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London) Bill Lords

Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to — Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of Working Classes) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of Working Glasses) (No. 2) Bill, without amendment.

That they have agreed to Amendments to—Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords], Whitechapel and Bow Railway Bill [Lords], Exmouth Urban District Water Bill [Lords], Gwyrfai Rural District Council Water Bill [Lords], without amendment.

Petitions

Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill

Two Petitions from Ryton-on-Tyne, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (No 2) Bill

Petitions in favour, from Swalwell; Dunston-on-Tyne (two); New Washington; and Usworth Colliery; to lie upon the Table.

Sunday Closing (Monmouthshire) Bill

Petitions in favour, from Dunston-on-Tyne; Blaydon; Winlaton; Hedge-field; Crawcrook; Rowlands Gill; Blaydon Haughs; and Usworth Colliery; to lie upon the Table.

RevenueExpenditurePercentage of total Expenditure to total Revenue.Net Revenue.Net Revenue after deducting Columns 5, 6, and 7.Interest on stock created for purchase of telegraphs.
Year.Telegraph receipts.Extra receiptsEstimated value of services to other Departments.Total.Sites and Buildings.Telegraph extension.Supernnuation and other non=effective chargesSalaries, wages, & c.Percentage of salaries, wages & c., to total Revenue.Maintenance of telegraph system.Percentage of maintenance of telegraph system to total Revenue.Other Expenditure.Total Expenditure.
Purchase.Erection.Under Telegraph Vote.Under other Votes.
12345678910111213141516

Returns, Reports, Etc

Railways (Continuous Brakes)

Copy presented, of Return by Railway Companies of the United Kingdom for the six months ending the 31st December, 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889

Copy presented, of General Report of the Commissioners under the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889, with an Appendix containing Ordinances, Minutes, Correspondence, Evidence, and other Documents [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shebeens In Towns (Ireland)

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 6th July; Mr. Macaleese] to lie upon the Table.

East India (Famine)

Copy presented, of Advances and Gifts to Agriculturists for Seed, Cattle, and Subsistence at the End of the Famine [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Post Office Telegraphs (Revenue And Expenditure)

Return ordered, "of Revenue and Expenditure of the Post Office for each year from 1869–70 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 319, of Session 1899), and an Estimate for the same for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1900, in the following form:—

Post Office (Revenue And Expenditure)

Return ordered, "of Revenue and Expenditure of the Post Office for each year

RevenueExpenditurePercentage of total Expenditure to total Revenue.Net Revenue.Net Revenue after deducting Columns 5, 6.
Year.Postal receipts.Extra receiptsEstimated value of services to other Departments.Total.Sites and Buildings.Supernnuation and other non-effective chargesSalaries, wages, & c.Percentage of salaries, wages & c., to total Revenue.Conveyance of mails.Percentage of Conveyance of mails. to total Revenue.Packet ServiceOther Expenditure.Total Expenditure.
Purchase.Erection.Under Post Office Vote.Under other Votes.
123456789101112131415

—( Mr. Hanbury.)

Universities (Scotland)

Return ordered, "of the amount of Class Fees paid by Students attending each of the Universities of Scotland, showing for each University the various Faculties, the Glass Subjects, the number of Students at the respective Glasses, and

Name of ClassStudents.Class Fees.
Winter Session, 1899-1900.Summer Session, 1900.Winter Session, 1899-1900.Summer Session, 1900.
Men.Women.Total.Men.Women.Total.Men.Women.Total.Men.Women.Total.
££££££

with Summaries showing the total number of students and amounts of fees respectively in each Faculty and each University; and also grand totals for Scottish Universities."—( Mr. Thomas Shaw.)

Questions

China—Anti-Foreign Outbreak—Position At Peking—Recent News

from 1869–70 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 320, of Session 1899), and an Estimate of the same for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1900, in the following form:—

the amount of Foes paid for instruction at these respective Classes, according to the following form:—

Name of University.

Name of Faculty.

Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether there is anything to communicate to the House about China.

We have very little in the way of news from China, but perhaps the House would like to hear the statements made to us with regard to the safety of the Legations at Peking. A communication has been received at the Foreign Office from the Chinese Minister to the effect that the Legations were un- harmed, and we have received from Shanghai a translation of an Imperial Decree, dated July 18th, as follows—

"In the Confucian work ' Spring and f Autumn,' it is written that Envoys shall not be killed. How can it then be supposed that the Throne's policy is to connive at allowing the troops and populace to vent their wrath upon the foreign Ministers? Excepting the murder of the German Minister by the riotous people, which offence is being vigorously investigated, the other Ministers are being protected for a month past by the Throne with a ceaseless energy, and fortunately have suffered (group omitted) harm."
A telegram was received on Friday at Shanghai from the Governor of Shantung transmitting a cypher message from the United States Minister to his Govern- merit, which purported to have loft Peking on July 18th. This message was undated and was to the effect that the United States Minister was in the British Legation under fire from shot and shell. The date given by the Chinese to the United States Minister's telegram is the same as that of the above decree, and the assurances of safety contained in the decree are not borne out by the latter. The Consul General telegraphed to the Governor of Shantung asking how it was that a message from Peking could reach Chinan-Fu in two days, and why we had had no message from Sir Claude MacDonald. The reply was as follows—
"The United States Minister's telegram was sent by Tsung-li Yamen by a messenger travelling 600 li (roughly 200 miles) a day. I assure you there is no telegraphic communication. I cannot explain why Her Majesty's Minister has not telegraphed. But J. beg you not to be anxious, for the Ministers and others are all living and unharmed; of this I have already had several reliable messages."
Seeing that over a month has elapsed since any communication has reached Her Majesty's Government from the Peking Legation, and that the Tsung-li Yamen are communicating by messenger with various Chinese authorities, Her Majesty's Government feel that they cannot attach credence to any statements or decrees attributed to the Emperor or the Chinese Government unless fortified by letters signed and dated by Sir Claude MacDonald or other British official, or by telegrams in our cypher.

The Yang-Tsze Viceroys

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the foreign Office have received a letter from the China Association urging that what the position in the Yang-tsze region requires is not only promise of help to the great provincial officials in putting down possible disturbance, but a clear and explicit expression of the intention of Her Majesty's Government to uphold and protect in their persons, properties, and offices those who have ventured to range themselves on the side of order and loyalty to their obligations; and whether, in view of this expression of opinion, and the pressure which is notoriously being brought to bear upon the great Viceroys of the Yang-tsze region and others, Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to give them the explicit assurances required.

Her Majesty's representatives have been in constant communication with the Yang-tsze Viceroys, and the assurances they have asked for have been given.

Has the Foreign Office received the letter from, the China, Association?

Chinese Representatives In This Country

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is in accordance with ordinary diplomatic usages that, while our countrymen are being. massacred in China, the representatives of the Government of China in this country should be invited to, and received as honoured guests at, State and official functions; and whether Her Majesty's Government intend to take any steps to- indicate to the representatives of China in this country their views with regard to recent events in China.

The answer to the hon. Member's question depends on the state of facts at Peking, with which, as I have already told the House, we are imperfectly acquainted. Her Majesty's Government have not failed to take every measure in their power to bring home to the Chinese Government their views as to. recent events in China.

Exports Of Munitions Of War To China

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Government have come to any decision with regard to stopping the export of arms and ammunition from this country to China for the use of the Chinese; and, if so, whether he will communicate the nature of such decision to the House; and whether any ironclads, torpedo boats, or other vessels of war are now being constructed for the Chinese by British firms, or are in course of transit from British builders to the Chinese; and, if so, whether the Government intend to stop these vessels, either on the water or in the building yards.

*

This question should be addressed to the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. My hon. and gallant friend must be aware that a Bill has been introduced in another place to effect this object.

Peking Legation—Naval Guard

*

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a list of non-commissioned officers and men of the German Marines, under Count Goben, who wore sent up to Peking to guard the German Legation, was published some days ago in Germany; and if he can explain why this cannot be done in the case of British Marines, under Captain Halli-day, who were sent up to Peking to guard the British Legation.

The Commander-in-Chief has not up till now reported the names of the men forming the Marine Guard at Peking; we have telegraphed to him to do so. He has not yet sent the information.

Provision For The Sick And Wounded In China—Hospital Ship Presented By Maharajah Of Gwalior

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what has been done to provide for the proper care of the British wounded at Tientsin and Ta-ku; and whether there is. any hospital accommodation at Wei-hai-wei.

Her Majesty's Government have no special information as to the arrangements made at the front for the wounded in the recent engagements; but there were available the medical staffs of the various British men-of-war under Admiral Seymour, and General Dorward took with him other medical officers and appliances. As regards hospital accommodation at Wei-hai-wei, there is a good hospital on the island, and good stone barracks convertible to hospital use if wanted. General Gaselee has telegraphed that as soon as he reaches Wei-hai-wei, he will report on its suitability for the location of base hospitals. The water supply in the island is good and ample. To this I have to add that the Government of India have already provided a hospital ship, and are prepared to supplement this accommodation by converting three transports into hospital ships. The American hospital ship "Maine" has also been placed at the disposal of Her Majesty's Government, and I am glad to take this opportunity of expressing our gratitude for this great act of generosity to the Atlantic Transport Company, which has furnished the ship, and to the American ladies who have provided the funds for equipping and maintaining it. I have also to inform the House that I have received from the Maharajah Sindhia of Gwalior the offer of a fully equipped hospital ship for China, upon which he is willing to spend twenty lakhs. This princely offer is made on behalf of himself, his mother, and his wife, to testify their loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen Empress. Her Majesty's Government have expressed their acceptance of this most munificent offer, and their deep appreciation of the motives which actuated His Highness to make it.

South African War—Hospital And Medical Arrangements-Commission Of Inquiry

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the instructions to the Commission of Inquiry into the medical arrangements in South Africa will include the making of a thorough inquiry on the spot by the medical members of the Com- mission into the results of inoculation for enteric fever, in preventing the disease, or lessening its effects.

The inquiry to which my hon. and gallant friend refers, though doubtless one of very great importance, appears to be outside the scope of reference of the Commission, and it would require some- what different circumstances to investigate a purely scientific medical subject of the kind suggested.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether Mr. Harrison, who has been appointed a member of the South African Hospitals Commission, holds an appointment as member of the Army Railway Council, a body which advises the Army authorities in matters of railway transport and engineering, and has the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the Army; and will he state in whom is the appointment to seats in the Army Railway Council vested, and was that council, of which Mr. Harrison is a member, consulted in the matter of railway transport in South Africa, which will form one branch of the subject matter of the inquiries of the South African Hospital Commission, of which Mr. Harrison is also a member.

I believe he is not a lieutenant-colonel in the Army. He is, however, a member of the Army Rail- way Council, an unpaid body called into existence at the request of a Departmental Committee of experts in order to advise the War Office, not on anything connected with South Africa or South African transport, but simply on the question of transports and mobilisation within the four quarters of the United Kingdom.

They are made by the War Office, of course. Whom else could they be made by?

Publication Of Despatches

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Trea- sury whether he can now state definitely that the South African war despatches already asked for will be in the hands of Members before the House is asked to consider the Supplementary Estimates for war services in South Africa.

I do not myself think that these despatches have any direct connection with the Estimates to be introduced by my hon. friend the Under Secretary for War, but I frankly admit I should be very glad to lay the despatches on the Table, and I had hoped that by the time the Estimates would be discussed we might have considered that the operations of the war were at an end, or practically at an end, in which case it would be possible to lay them at once. That, however, appears to be a sanguine estimate, and I do not quite see how it is possible now to lay the despatches on the Table in view of the opinion expressed by the right hon. Gentleman and others on both sides of the House that anything which contains commentary upon military operations going on or the discretion of officers engaged should not be published while those military operations are in progress.

I cannot enter into a controversy on the subject now, but I must firmly protest against any such sentiment being attributed to me.

Supplementary Estimates

On behalf of the hon. Member for North Kerry, I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state approximately the amount of money to be asked for in the Supplementary Estimate in connection with the war in South Africa; and also approximately what portion of the estimated gross cost of the war in South Africa will Ireland have to contribute.

It is impossible at present, I think, and certainly premature, to give any estimate of the kind asked for. As for the Supplementary Estimate which is to be brought forward, that will be in the hands of Members today or to-morrow, and, probably, it would be better for the House to wait till they have the estimate in their hands than for me to attempt to give any account of its contents. I may, however, say chat some of the rumours I have soon published as to the magnitude of the financial operations contemplated by the Government are altogether fantastic in their proportions.

Why should the Irish people be compelled to contribute towards the cost of a war which they abhor?

[No answer was given.]

Trans Port Officers—Rewards And Distinctions

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the work of the transport officers at the ports of embarkation will be recognised in collection with any rewards that may be distributed for services during the past year.

I must deprecate Parliamentary questions with regard to rewards and distinctions. The responsibility rests decidedly with the Board of Admiralty, and the grace of conferring any distinction might easily be marred by any appearance of Parliamentary pressure.

Boer Prisoners For Ceylon

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any number of Boer prisoners of war have been or are being sent to Ceylon; and, if so, how many, and to what place.

*

Yes, Sir. Lord Roberts telegraphed on the 12th inst. that a body of prisoners would leave for Ceylon in a few days, but their number was not stated. Preparations have been made for the reception of about 2,000 prisoners and their guards at Bandarawolla, in the hill country.

Recent Military Operations

I beg to ask the Under Secretary for War whether then; is anything to communicate to the House about South Africa-There is a rumour that there is some news from South Africa.

*

Hospital Returns

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of men now in hospital in South Africa from causes other than wounds.

*

It has already been explained to the House that it is not practicable to give the information required. The numbers vary from day to day and we receive no telegraphic information about them. I can, however, give the admissions at any place, at any date, if that will satisfy the hon. Member.

Boer Women Sent To The Enemy's Lines

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he can now state whether a proclamation was issued at Pretoria on Wednesday last ordering the wives of all Boers believed to be in the field against us to report themselves to the authorities on the following day in order that they might be sent into the enemy's lines, and whether they and their children have been so sent; and whether among these women are included any who have been rendered destitute through the destruction for military purposes of their farms and crops.

*

3Rd Inniskllling Fusiliers

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he can state how many men of the 3rd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, stationed at Cowshott Manor Camp, responded to the call made in February last to volunteer for service in South Africa; were any deprivations of privilege made in the case of men who then declined to volunteer; and how many men responded to a further call for volunteers made upon this corps in the present month, and have any of the corps been visited with displeasure for refusal.

*

As I stated in reply to this question on Thursday, the 3rd Inniskilling Fusiliers was not asked by the Secretary of State for War to volunteer for service abroad, either in February or later.

Military Lands Act, 1892

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, in regard to England and Scotland respectively, if he will state how many county and borough councils have exercised the powers given for the purchase of land under the Military Lands Act, 1892; what number of acres has been so purchased; what sum has been so expended; and what proportion of that sum has been borrowed under the powers conferred by the Act.

*

The War Office has cognisance only of cases where compulsion is required, and only one such case has occurred among purchases made by county or borough councils, viz., at Great Yarmouth. The Local Government Board has cognisance of all sums of money borrowed under the Act; two cases have occurred, a loan of £12,600 to the town council of Nottingham, for the purchase of 120 acres of land for rifle ranges; and a loan of £123 to the town council of Chesterfield, for the purchase of two roods of land for a drill hall. But when the council is able to buy the land by agreement, and without borrowing, the transaction is not reported to any Government department.

War Office Employees' Bonus

I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state whether, seeing that the privileges of certain War Office employees computed at 1s. a week, were taken into consideration when their minimum wage was raised to 22s. a week, these men are not entitled to a certain bonus; and whether he will see that a store house man named Wales (Army Clothing Department), who, after serving for seventeen years, was discharged in consequence of an accident, receives the bonus for that number of years service, irrespective of the compensation he received for injuries.

*

The Superannuation Act directs that gratuities on discharge shall be calculated on wages, and there is no power to vary the basis of assessment. Wales obtained under the Workmen's Compensation Act a weekly allowance which cannot be supplemented by a gratuity. The hon. Member does not accurately state the amount of the minimum wage.

Did not the man in question receive compensation in consequence of injuries sustained? Is he not therefore entitled to a bonus?

*

No, Sir. The workman in question received what he got under the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and he was not entitled to anything beyond that.

*

I do not know what the hon. and gallant Member means by a bonus. If he will speak to me privately I may clear up any misunderstanding.

Lancashire Volunteer Allowances

I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office when his decision will be announced as to the supplementary grant to be paid to certain Lancashire Volunteer regiments in respect of their travelling expenses, which have been 5s. per head above the usual grant; and whether any special allowance is to be made for the carriage of cycles to and from camp.

*

The question of the travelling expenses referred to has been decided in favour of the corps, and the necessary instructions have been sent. There is no special grant for the conveyance of cycles; the allowance of £2 is intended to cover all extra incidental charges.

Kilworth Rifle Range

I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether proceedings are at present pending or contemplated on the part of the War Office to acquire for the purpose of adding it to the Kilworth Rifle Range a large tract of land in the immediate locality; and will he state under what Act these proceedings are being taken, what stage they have reached, what area of land it is proposed to ac- quire, and how many families it is proposed to evict.

*

Then what was the meaning of the communication addressed to the Cork County Council, stating there was such an intention?

*

That, no doubt, had reference to the schedule of a Bill introduced into another place, and since withdrawn.

Army Shirt Contracts

I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the total quantity of Army shirts tendered for and supplied respectively by shirt manufacturers in the United Kingdom for the troops in South Africa during the past twelve months; what proportion was tendered for by manufacturers in the south of Ireland, and were their tenders accepted; what were the conditions of specification as to quality stipulated for by the Government, and were those conditions complied with by south of Ireland manufacturers; and, seeing that the identical quality of shirting previously accepted by the Government was offered at a lower price by one of the largest manufacturers of those goods in the south of Ireland, and that the tender was declined, can he explain why Irish manufacturers have received none of the Government contracts for Army shirts.

*

The total quantity being supplied is about 700,000; 31,000 were offered by south of Ireland firms and were not accepted. The material was to be flannel or union mixture containing not less than 50 per cent. of wool. In some cases the supply was to be to War Office pattern; in others the contractors were allowed to submit their own patterns. If there had been great emergency at the time the orders referred to were placed, some samples submitted by south of Ireland firms might have been accepted, but there was then no difficulty in meeting the requirements from the more suitable samples submitted by other firms. Nothing is known as to the particular case referred to in the second paragraph, but nine Irish manufacturers received orders, and a considerable number of other shirts were manufactured in Ireland by firms whose head offices are in Great Britain.

Out of the many millions spent on these matters, has threepence gone to Ireland?

The Channel Fleet—Visit To Invergordon

On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether arrangements will be made for the Channel Fleet to visit Invergordon this summer.

Beyond a visit to Berehaven for the purpose of carrying out certain exercises, the movements of the Channel squadron subsequent to the manéuvres have not yet been decided upon.

Sailing Training Squadron

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty can he say what officer, or officers, and what men have been in charge of H.M.S. "Raleigh" and of the other three ships of the sailing training squadron since this squadron was put out of commission and laid up on 31st October, 1899; have any officers and men lived on board the ships since that date, and, if so, how many on board each ship; are these ships now in sufficiently good condition to enable them to be fitted out again for sea; what other ships besides these four would be available for use as a sailing training squadron; and is it proposed to build any more ships that would be so available; and, if so, when is it expected that these latter will be ready for use.

It is not possible to give all the information asked for by the hon. Gentleman within the limits of an answer to a Parliamentary question. Generally speaking, the ships forming the recent training squadron have been in the hands of care and maintenance parties at the ports since they were put out of commission last year. Of these a limited number live on board when necessary. The "Cleopatra" is about to replace the "Curaçoa" as a sea-going training ship for boys. The "Raleigh" is fit for service at sea. The "Volage" would need a thorough refit before being commissioned for sea service, and the "Champion" a refit of less extent. The following ships are available for service, but they would require extensive repairs, and re-boilering at once or after a short period:—"Calypso," "Active," "Cordelia," and "Curaçoa." With reference to the last question of the hon. Member, the hon. Gentleman knows the shipbuilding programme for this year, and I am not prepared to anticipate next year's programme.

Foreign Men-Of-War In Jersey Harbours

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether foreign war vessels are constantly manœuvring in and out of the harbours of Jersey; and whether there are any regulations limiting such vessels from practising these evolutions.

No recent reports of the proceedings of foreign war vessels, as suggested in the question, have been received by the Admiralty. There are no special regulations as to the limitation of vessels practising evolutions, but attention would be called to any infraction of international usage, should such occur.

Is it not notorious that French men-of-war have been manœuvring in these waters? Is it in accordance with ordinary usage?

Royal Marine Officers' Clothing

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether officers of the Royal Marines serving on board ship in warm climates are compelled by regulation to wear white clothing, and are also compelled by regulation to wear khaki clothing when engaged in active operations ashore; and, if so, whether he will sanction the adoption of one type of hot weather uniform, so as to relieve officers of the Royal Marines of the heavy expense entailed by the present arrangement.

I am informed that officers of the Royal Marines are not compelled by regulation to wear khaki clothing under any circumstances, but that description of uniform has been worn as a matter of convenience and discretion in some recent active operations on shore. I will inquire further into the matter.

Indian Famine—Relief Statistics

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can state the total number of persons on relief in the famine districts, and the number who are still being relieved in famine camps; and whether he will obtain the statistics of deaths from cholera, which are available in India, for the information of the House before the debate takes place on the Indian Budget.

*

The famine-telegram, dated the 14th July, and published in the daily press, stated that 6,148,000 were in receipt of relief, it added that, "Village relief and advances were replacing relief works." I cannot at present specify how many out of this total were relieved at their villages and how many were on relief works. I can obtain the total figures for cholera deaths. in British districts and in Native States, so far as they are available in India, but they may not be sent in time for the debate on Thursday next.

Advancer To Cultivators For Seed And Cattle

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether in many of the famine districts from 75 to 90 per cent. of the cattle have died; what proportion of the cultivators in the district affected will need advances for seed and cattle; and what proportion of these can be assisted out of the 123 lacs allotted for the purpose, and the charitable funds; and whether he has information to show that there are enough cattle available in India to supply immediate needs; and if not, whether any steps are being taken to make good the deficiency from elsewhere.

*

I have no trustworthy information about the mor- tality among cattle; nor can I give particulars as to the proportion of cultivators that will be relieved from advances made by Government and from the charitable fund respectively. If the funds already allotted for this purpose prove insufficient more money will be granted. No cattle have been brought into India from outside to meet the present need; but cattle are being moved into the famine districts from more prosperous parts of India.

Loans To Native States

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what steps, if any, are being taken to assist the Governments of the Native States to obtain the necessary funds for making advances to cultivators for the purchase of plough cattle and seed grains.

*

The loans to Native States for famine purposes and the grants to chose States from the Charitable Fund are intended to cover the necessary advances and gifts to cultivators in those tracts. In my answer to the hon. Member for Banffshire on Thursday, I stated the amount of those loans. † Up to the end of May 26½ lacs (£177,000) had also been allotted by the Central Committee of the Charitable Fund for expenditure in Native States.

Indian Railways—Financial Arrangement

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in calculating the rate of interest under the contract powers for paying off (by annuities) the shareholders of the East Indian Railway Company in 1880, the Eastern Bengal Railway Company in 1884, and the Scinde Railway Company in 1886, the agreed results (namely, £4 6s., £3 17s., and £3 16s. 6d.) were the outcome of the same methods of interpretation as explained before a Committee of the House of Commons in 1879 by Sir Louis Mallet, Mr. Danvers, and Viscount Cranbrook.

*

The East Indian Railway was bought under a special arrangement outside the contract which the Select Committee of 1879 (of which I was chairman) agreed to, on the

† See page 465 of this volume.
understanding that the rate fixed was not to form a precedent. In determining the terms of subsequent purchases under the Acts of Parliament the other two railways were bought under the contract, and the rate of interest was determined by the governor and the deputy-governor of the Bank as prescribed by contract. I have no knowledge of the view they took of the evidence given before the Select Committee of 1879.

*

I should imagine not, because the Committee of which I was chairman distinctly laid it down that sanction was only given to the exceptional purchase in 1879 on the understanding that it was not to form a precedent.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the rates of interest agreed to by the Indian. Government on the termination of the contracts of the East Indian, Eastern, Bengal, and Scinde Railway Companies during the past twenty years—namely, £4 6s, £3 17s., and £3 16s. 6d. per cent. —represented the average rate of interest received by persons who invested in the three India sterling stocks during the two-year period relating to each of those three contracts.

*

As I have before said, the purchase of the East Indian Railway stands on quite a different footing from those of the Eastern Bengal and Scinde Railway Companies, and was not based on the average rate of interest received by investors. I have no knowledge of how the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England calculated the rate of interest for the annuities of the other two purchases.

*

According to. the contract, the Governor and Deputy Governor are given the power of deciding what the rate is. I think it would be most improper for the Secretary of State to interfere with their discretion in any way.

State-Aided Railways — Determination Of Contracts

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of the Indian Government to pay due respect to the precedents established during the past twenty years in their policy regarding the determination of any future railway contracts; and, if not, whether he will give due notice of this intention, and an explanation of his policy in the matter.

*

It is the intention of the Secretary of State in Council to act on all occasions of this kind in strict conformity with the terms prescribed in the contracts with the various Indian railway companies.

Niger Coast Protectorate-Spirit Imports

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can say what was the amount of spirits imported into the Niger Coast Protectorate during the months of March, April, May, and June in the years 1898 and 1899 respectively; and whether any, and, if any, what number of native traders in Opobo and Old Calabar have paid duties on their stocks in store, under the proclamation of 17th May, and the amount of such duty.

I regret that I am unable to say what was the amount of spirits imported into the Niger Coast Protectorate in the months specified, as the Returns received give only the total imports for each year, and no information has been received as to the duties paid on stocks by native traders in Opobo and Old Calabar.

Imperial Telegraphic Communication—Departmental Committee

I bog to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he would state to the House the composition of the Departmental Committee on the system of Cable Telegraphs of the Empire, the scope, and the terms of its reference.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY
(Mr. HANBURY, Pres- ]]]]HS_COL-868]]]] ton)

The terms of reference are "To inquire into the present system of telegraphic communication between different parts of the Empire, and to consider in what respects it requires to be supplemented. To investigate the relations between private cable companies and the Imperial and Colonial Governments (including the Government of India), the amount of control at present exercised by these Governments, and the policy which should be pursued by them in future, especially when new concessions are sought. To examine existing rates, to report how far they are fair and reasonable; and, if not, how any reduction should be effected." The Committee will consist of Lord Balfour of Burleigh, the Postmaster General, the Secretary to the Treasury, the Under Secretaries for India and the Colonies, and two members from the Intelligence branches of the Admiralty and the War Office.

Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to supplement the Committee by two gentlemen of common sense?

School Attendance Authorities —Bye-Laws In Agricultural Districts

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he can state how many school attendance authorities have made bye-laws under the Elementary Education Act of 1899, providing for the exemption of school attendance during certain months of the year of children between the ages of eleven and thirteen who are employed in agriculture.

THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION
(Sir J. GORST, Cambridge University)

There are thirty-six such bye-laws now ready for sanction.

Consultative Committee On Education

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that the Association of Technical Institutions has addressed a letter to the President of the Board, asking him to receive a deputation of that body to submit to him their views on the composition of the Consultative Committee appointed by him, and named in the Draft Order in Council now lying upon the Table of this House, and to call his attention to the fact that the Committee as constituted is wholly academic and includes no representative of the scientific, technical, and commercial industries of the country, in which the practical results of our system of national education have to be tested; whether this omission is intended to imply that the Board of Education will not seek from the Consultative Committee any assistance in determining and improving, from time to time, the character and quality of the whole system of our national education; whether it is the intention of the Board of Education to exclude all questions from the matters referred to the Committee by the Board; and whether, if this be the case, the Vice-President of the Board will explain to the House what are the functions and responsibilities (if any) which the Consultative Committee will be required to perform.

The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second and third paragraphs in the negative. The functions of the Consultative Committee are defined in the fourth Section of the Board of Education Act, 1899; they are:— (a) to frame regulations for a register of teachers and (b) to advise the Board of Education on any matter referred to the Committee by the Board.

Will Section 4 cover such questions as the improvement of our system of national education?

Geological Survey Maps

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the limited sales of maps prepared by the Geological Survey; can he explain how it is that while the annual cost of the Survey is upwards of £17,000, the receipts from the sale of the maps is less than £1,000; whether he has observed that the maps, being published on the one-inch scale, are too small for many purposes, and that the six-inch maps can only be obtained on special application, and coloured by hand at a high price, and that their existence is but little known; whether similar maps of other countries are printed in colours, and published at a much lower price; and will he look into the question with a view to making them more widely useful.

A Departmental Committee has been appointed by the Lord President of the Council to inquire into various matters regarding the Geological Survey, and no definite answer can be given to the questions asked until the Committee has reported.

London School Hoard Audit Case

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware of the cause of the delay in submitting to the Queen's Bench the London School Board audit case, with reference to the alleged illegal expenditure by the Board of ratepayers' money on secondary education; and will he take steps to secure that the case should in the public interest be submitted immediately.

I am not aware of any cause which prevents the London School Board audit case being now submitted to the Queen's Bench Division. The Board of Education is not a party to the record, and has no right to interfere in the case. I do not know what step it is possible for the Board of Education to take to expedite the proceedings, but an immediate decision of the question is of the most urgent importance in the interests of education, both to the school boards and the Government Department.

Recent Postal Delays

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he can have steps taken to remedy the inconvenience experienced by residents in Sheringham, Norfolk, caused by the alteration in the postal arrangements, the effect of which is that letters coming by the night mail from London and elsewhere are not delivered until the second post instead of in the early morning as heretofore.

The effect of the recent alterations in the postal arrangements at Sheringham will be to accelerate the first delivery of letters at that place, and letters posted in time for the night mail from London should be included in that delivery. The Postmaster General regrets that, owing to mistakes in sorting and to the recent temporary disarrangement of the postal service in London, some letters for Sheringham which should have been included in the first delivery have not been delivered until the second. Proper notice has been taken of the errors in sorting, and the Postmaster General hopes that the Service will be more regularly performed in future.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any date when the confusion at the Post Office will be ended?

I can only give the assurance which the Post Office have repeatedly given me, to the effect that the confusion is over already.

Excess Postage

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that quantities of letters are delivered without the ordinary penny stamp being affixed, on which twopence is charged on delivery, and that one London postman on a certain day collected 5s. in this way on his round; and can he say if the percentage of letters so charged has greatly increased since the change was made from the old red stamp, and, if so, does it arise from insufficient gumming or inferior quality of adhesive material used, and can he state the number of unstamped letters posted in a year, and of stamps found in receptacles in which letters are posted, how much the postal authorities gain yearly by stamps thus found, how much from letters unstamped, and whether he will consider the advisability of a reduction of the twopenny fee charged on unstamped letters.

The Postmaster General is not aware how many letters are charged 2d. on delivery because they do not boar a penny stamp. No records of such letters are kept, and it cannot be stated, therefore, whether the number of charges has increased or diminished since the old red stamp was discontinued. The value of stamps found loose in post offices and left on post office counters by the public amounts in one year to about £300. The quality of the gum used is satisfactory, and the Postmaster General believes that postage stamps, which are now made of thinner paper, adhere more firmly than formerly to the covers to which they are affixed. It is not considered desirable to reduce the twopenny fee charged on unstamped letters. The expense of collecting charges for deficient postage is considerable.

Income Tax Deductions

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reference to deductions for income tax, whether in the past, when the income tax has been lowered, it has been the custom to deduct the tax at the lower rate in respect of income accruing after 5th April upon the class of securities which are now under similar circumstances charged at 1s.

Seizures Of Foreign Prison-Made Goods

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury in how many instances the Prison-made Goods Act has boon put in force, and what has been the value and the nature of the goods that have come under its operation.

There have been six consignments only since the passing of the Act 60 and 61 Vic, chap. 63, in which the Commissioners of Customs were satisfied that goods imported into the United Kingdom were in whole or in part of prison origin. The goods were in each case mats which the Commissioners were satisfied had been, at least, partially manufactured in Belgium by convict labour. The six consignments consisted of 126 bundles of the declared value of £183. The whole of the mats were seized and subsequently destroyed by fire.

District Messengers Company

May I ask whether it is true that the licence of the District Messengers Company is not to be renewed.

I know nothing officially on the subject. About three years ago, on behalf of the Treasury, I reduced the royalty in connection with this company for the purpose of encouraging it.

Water For Cattle On Rail Ways

On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether during the continuance of this exceptionally hot weather special arrangements could be made by the railway companies in the three kingdoms to enable live stock to obtain water upon journeys of any distance or delays exceeding six hours.

My right hon. friend the President of the Board of Agriculture informs me that the Water Supply on Railways Order of 1895 requires that water shall be provided at about 1,100 railway stations in Great Britain for the use of animals carried by rail. He has received no complaint as to the inadequacy of these arrangements, which he believes to be fully sufficient to meet the object which the hon. Member has in view.

Third - Class Season Tickets

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that many of the railway companies running into London, though issuing season tickets to first and second class passengers, refuse to issue season tickets to third-class passengers, and that, in consequence, third-class are compelled to pay in most cases more than first-class, and in all cases more than second-class passengers. Can he explain why first, second, and third class passengers are not treated alike with regard to season tickets, and required to pay an equal proportionate charge for them; and whether he will consider the position of the railway companies towards the poorer classes of suburban travellers, and take steps to secure for them conditions for season tickets similar to those accorded to first and second class passengers.

The issue of season tickets by railway companies is a voluntary act on their part. They are not under legal obligation to do anything of the kind, and it follows that the Board of Trade are not in a position to intervene. If, however, the hon. Member is prepared and desires to give me a specific case, or cases, of hardship, the Board will be happy to use their good offices to obtain a fair consideration of the matter.

Convict Warders And The Reserve— Portland Establishment

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many Reservists have been taken from the prison warders and civil guards in Her Majesty's convict prisons, and to what extent have their places been filled up; will he explain why at the present time only six warders are now employed at the West Quarries of the Portland convict establishment to supervise 170 convicts, whereas the recognised proportion is one warder for every ten convicts; and whether the absence of a larger staff has tended to produce insubordination; and how many cases at Portland of flogging for prison offences have there been during the last six months.

*

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT
(Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY, Lancashire, Blackpool)

Fifty-three Reservists have been taken from the prison warders and convict guards in convict prisons. Their places have been filled with one exception. The number of convicts employed in the West Quarries is on the average 201, and the number of officers employed to supervise them is seventeen. This is one to twelve. The proportion of one warder to every ten convicts includes officers sick, on leave, and on escort, and is a fixed proportion of staff to cover all contingencies. The percentage of staff at Portland and other convict prisons has, in fact, been increased, and is over 10 per cent. There is no foundation for the suggestion that the absence of a larger staff has tended to produce insubordination. The number of cases of corporal punishment at Portland during the last six months was five.

Convict Warders' Pensions

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the warders at the four convict prisons petitioned last year for an increase in their pensions, and what reply, if any, has been sent to them.

*

I may refer the hon. Member to an answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the Rich-mond Division of Yorkshire on 12th March last, to the effect that such petitions have been received, but that the question of pensions is primarily one for the Treasury, and that I am not at present prepared to propose the legislation which would be necessary in order to carry the prayer of petition into effect.

Sheffield Laundry Prosecution

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Victoria Laundries, Limited, of Howard Street, Sheffield, who have been recently prosecuted and fined for breaches of the Factory Acts, are, as they assert, contractors to Her Majesty's Government; and, if so, to what Department.

*

I have ascertained that the firm in question have a contract with the War Office to wash for Sheffield Barracks.

Bail Regulations

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General whether his attention has been called to the statements of Mr. Justice Wright in charging the grand jury at the Derbyshire Assizes on the 11th instant, in reference to the detention of persons awaiting trial; whether he is aware that it appeared from the calendar before the Court that accused persons had been detained for periods amounting in the aggregate to three years; that this was mainly due to justice's clerks being; ignorant of recent legislation which removed difficulties once existing with regard to bail; and that, in particular, a man was brought before Mr. Justice Wright charged with perjury, who had been ten weeks in prison awaiting trial, and the jury found him innocent; while in two other charges where persons were convicted of manslaughter they wore discharged because they had been three months in prison awaiting trial; and what action does the Government propose: to take to prevent similar occurrences in future.

My attention has been called to the remarks of Mr. Justice Wright at the Derbyshire Assizes. I understand that in discharging the grand jury the learned Judge modified these remarks in respect of two or three prisoners who had been offered bail before the magistrates and had refused it. There appears to be no doubt that there had been a good deal of detention before trial which might have been prevented, by the exercise of the power of the magistrates to grant bail, but I have not, been able to verify all the details stated in the second paragraph of the question. The Bail Act of 1898 was passed with the object of preventing unnecessary detention, and the Government have under consideration the propriety of taking steps to call the attention of justices' clerks to the provisions of this Act.

Road Construction In The Island Of Lewis

On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the construction of the road between Cromore and Graver, in the Park District of the Island of Lewis, is now being proceeded with; and, if not, will he state the cause of the delay.

*

I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that they are still awaiting the information from the district committee referred to in the answer given to the. hon. Member on 1st May last.

Inver Water Supply

On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that the medical officer of health for Ross and Cromarty reports that the water supply of the village of Inver, in the parish of Tain, about which complaints were made last year, is still unsatisfactory; and will he state what steps have been taken by the Local Government Board in the matter.

*

I am informed by the Local Government Board that they have been in constant communication during last year with East Ross District Committee and on 26th April last received from the local medical officer an assurance that the local authority had agreed to protect the wells, cover them up, and put pumps in them, and that the works were to be proceeded with immediately. As an excuse for delay in completing these measures the local authority now plead the ignorance and prejudice of the people, who are said to be quite satisfied with the present state of matters, and have accordingly broken a pump which had been put up by a private benefactor. I am to add that the Local Government Board will lose no opportunity of pressing the local authority to do their duty in the matter.

Chime In County Monaghan

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, at the recent assizes in the county Monaghan, the judge said that he interviewed the county inspector of police, who reported the county to be in a most satisfactory state and almost free from crime; and whether, under these circumstances, he will advise the removal of the operation of the Peace Preservation Act from the county of Monaghan.

The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The Government do not consider it desirable to revoke the proclamation of the county Monaghan under the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act.

Irish Police Batons And Handcuffs

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state where the batons and handcuffs used by the police, in Ireland are made, and what is the capital cost of those now employed by the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police.

The batons and handcuffs used by the Irish police were obtained many years ago from a firm in Dublin; it is not known where they were made. The estimated cost of these articles was about £1,900.

County Courts (Ireland) Bill

I beg to. ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will arrange., with a view to the passing next year of the County Courts (Ireland) Bill, to prepare and circulate a draft of the rules, orders, and forms proposed to be made under it, including the scale of court fees proposed to be charged to litigants.

I cannot, without consulting the Lord Chancellor, for Ireland, undertake to act on the suggestion of the hon. Member, but the matter will be considered.

Irish Local Government Returns

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant a Return showing the population, local government electorate, and poor law valuation of each county, county district (rural and urban), and electoral division or ward in each such district in Ireland, and of the number of county and district councillors for each such county, county district, electoral division, or ward.

There is no. objection, in principle, to a Return such as indicated, but it would take consider- able time and labour to prepare, and could not in any case be ready before October. Under all the circumstances I think it would be better to postpone the preparation of the Return until after the approaching census, as the population and valuation of the altered areas can then be stated with a degree of accuracy which could not be shown if the Return were prepared now.

If the hon. Gentleman will communicate with the Local Government Board, I think it would serve his purpose much better.

Irish Teachers And Results Fees

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland will mot pay the equivalent for results fees now due to teachers in whose schools the results period terminated on 30th June, such as the presentation convent school in Kilkenny and the Castle comer Convent School, sooner than the middle of next October, whereas the teachers of schools in which the results period terminated on 31st May are to be paid these equivalents in the middle of this month. And can he state when will the old arrears of the Education Grant, due to Irish National school teachers for 1892 and subsequent years, be paid to them.

Schools examined for results in former years in the June quarter will be paid the equivalent grant, as far as possible, with the June quarterly payments, and schools, including the two specially referred to in the question, whose results examinations took place in the September quarter will be paid the grant with the salary payments for that quarter. A Supplementary Estimate for the payments mentioned in the second paragraph has already been introduced, but the payments cannot be made until the Vote has been passed.

Public House Licences In Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will arrange for an annual Return of the number of new public-house licences granted and extinguished in each quarter sessions division in Ireland, showing in each case whether the new licence was granted in substitution for an existing licence.

I am making inquiry into this matter, and will ask the hon. Member to repeat the question on Thursday next.

Royal Irish Constabulary— House Rent Allowances

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the allowance made for house rent to all married members of the Royal Irish Constabulary below the rank of district inspector is only 1s. per week; and can he state what allowance is made for the same purpose to district and county inspectors, and at what date the amount in question was first fixed, and on want principle it was arrived at.

The fact is as stated in the first paragraph; but married members of the force below the rank of district inspector are also exempt from a statutory deduction of 1s. per week from their pay, which exemption practically raises the lodging allowance to £5 4s. per annum. A lodging allowance at the rate of £21 5s. l0d. per annum was fixed in 1870 in the case of a district inspector of the third class. The allowances payable to district inspectors of the second and first class vary, according to the length of service, from £27 10s. to £40, and a county inspector receives an allowance of £50. These allowances were fixed in 1882. The allowances to officers and men were fixed on a consideration of the class of house or lodging accommodation which, having regard to their rank in the force, they would be expected to occupy.

Kilteevan Drum And Fife Band

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on Sunday, 6th May, when the Kilteevan (county Roscommon) fife and drum band was returning from Roscommon to Kilteevan the members were accosted by District Inspector Rogers in insulting language, and that he further stated that if he had sufficient force he would disperse them, while, upon that and the following Sunday, Sergeant Higgins interfered to prevent the leader of the band addressing his comrades; and can he state by what authority these officials acted in such a manner.

I am informed there is no foundation for the statements in the question so far as the district inspector is concerned. It is true that the sergeant prevented one of the leaders of the band from addressing a meeting. The band, accompanied by a large crowd, had been demonstrating at certain grazing farms in the locality with the evident object of intimidating the persons who hold these farms. The sergeant had warned the ringleaders that their conduct was illegal.

Sutton To Howth Tramway

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Great Northern (Ireland) Company dispute that the construction of their tramway from Sutton to Howth is illegal; and, if it is not in accordance with the Act, will he state whether the Board of Trade have ever previously sanctioned a line made contrary to statutory provisions; and, if so, where.

I understand that the answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. As to the second paragraph the Board have no powers either to sanction or not to sanction the line. They cannot determine the legal questions at issue, they are merely prepared to certify the line as fit for traffic on the understanding that the company will at an early date apply for such further Parliamentary powers as may be found to be necessary.

Will the right hon. Gentleman's inspector ascertain by reference to the Act the condition of the line, and whether the line is now in a legal state?

It is no part of our duty, nor have we inspectors qualified to determine the law on matters of that kind. All that the Board of Trade have to do is to certify that the line is fit to be opened for public traffic. We have to look after matters of safety and nothing more.

Is it not part of the function of the Board of Trade, where the Act of Parliament states that the line shall be laid on a level with the road, and when it is laid one foot and a half above that level, to state whether the line is legal or illegal?

Then I will ask the Attorney General whether he will consider whether an indictment should not be presented in regard to this line.

*

Order, order! If the hon. Member wishes to put a question of that kind he must give notice.

Sligo And Northern Counties Railway—Mixed Trains

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that all trains run on the Sligo and Northern Counties Railway are not made up of passenger carriages, but mainly of heavily laden goods wagons; that on some parts of the line the engines are unable to do the haulage except at a slow pace; and that, at all the stations except two, passengers are detained at the risk of accidents and to their inconvenience while the shunting is being carried on, and about which the travelling public complain; and seeing that, owing to this practice, it takes about three hours at the present rate of sixteen miles an hour to run from Sligo to Enniskillen and vice versa, whether steps will be taken to improve the present system of working this line.

No, Sir; but I shall be happy to communicate with the railway company and direct their attention to the allegation made in the hon. Member's question.

Truck Act Prosecution At Dungloe Sessions

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Patrick O'Donnell, of Doochary, county Donegal, was recently fined £5 and £2 costs at Dungloe Petty Sessions for a breach of the Truck Act; and that the Queen's Bench has since ruled on appeal, in another case heard from the same petty sessions, that the Truck Act does not apply to such persons as those supplied with goods by the defendant; and whether the Government will order the amount of fine and costs to be remitted to Mr. O'Donnell.

My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this question. The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The proper course to adopt in all such cases is for the person concerned to petition the Lord Lientenant praying for a remission of the fine and a return of the costs. Any such petition, if forwarded by Mr. O'Donnell, will be considered.

Unsuccessful Application Against The Donegal Justices

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any and what reply has been given to the application on behalf of Major Johnson and the other Donegal Justices to be allowed their expenses in reference to the recent unsuccessful application to attach them; whether he is aware that Chief Baron Palles, in refusing to make the conditional order absolute, stated he regretted he had no power to award costs to the justices, and that he was shocked at the action of Mr. Mackey, the Crown solicitor, who, in order to obtain a conditional order for attachment against the justices, suppressed the fact that the mandamus had been complied with, and pretended that no case had been stated; is he aware that the justices handed him the case at petty sessions, which he declined to take; and they then sent him the case by registered letter, which he refused to lodge; that he detatched a portion of the case thus sent him and affixed it to another document signed by a minority of the justices, and lodged the joint product as if it were a genuine case stated; that the judge of the Queen's Bench to whom the case was finally sent decided that the case originally refused by Mr. Mackey was a good case, and dismissed the attachment on the ground that the mandamus had been complied with; and that the court then heard the appeal on the case, and upheld the decision of the justices; and whether, under these circumstances, the Crown will see fit to recoup to the justices the expenses incurred by them in successfully defending themselves.

A reply has been given to the solicitor's letter to the effect that, as all the costs referred to were incurred by reason of the fact that the justices illegally and improperly refused to state a case for the opinion of the Queen's Bench Division when required so to do, the Crown must refuse to pay them the costs. I believe the Chief Baron did state that he regretted he had no power to award costs to the justices. It is impossible within the proper limits of an answer to a question, to give an epitome of the facts of the intricate litigation referred to. I have read over several times the authorised shorthand notes of the judgment of the court, and do not find that it contains any censure on Mr. Mackey or any other Crown official. No reference is made in this judgment to the other statements contained in the question, but as far as I have been able to ascertain, most of them are without foundation, and others misrepresent the actual facts. I have been informed, however, that the Lord Chief Baron, speaking in ignorance necessarily of the ultimate course contemplated by the Executive should they have been successful in the litigation then at hearing, found some fault with the mode in which the case had been conducted by the counsel. Notwithstanding the observations of the Lord Chief Baron, I am quite prepared, should the occasion offer, to justify in this House the action of the Crown in every particular. The reply to the last paragraph is in the negative.

Cork Assizes—Selection Of Jurymen

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at the Cork Assizes on the 18th instant, in connection with the trial of a man named Cadogan, charged with the murder of a land agent named Bird; whether he is aware that on the long jury panel being called over, over sixty jurors were ordered by the Crown to stand aside; was this system of jury selection adopted with the sanction of the Law Officers of the Crown; and, if so, what were the reasons; and can he state whether there is any precedent at a criminal assize for ordering such a number of citizens qualified to act as jurors to stand aside.

The answer to the first and second paragraphs is in the affirmative No directions other than those contained in the Circular of 12th February, 1894, addressed to Crown Solicitors, were given. The action of the Crown Solicitor in the present case was due to the fact that he was aware that efforts had been extensively and continuously made to influence the jurors in favour of the accused, and he reasonably believed that the men set aside would not, if sworn, have given an impartial verdict. It is impossible at such short notice to obtain particulars of the many instances in which as many or even a larger number of jurors were set aside. I may, however, mention the case of the Queen v. Morey, tried at the Cork Winter Assizes of 1893, when forty-one out of a panel of seventy-four jurors were ordered to stand aside.

What reward will the Law Officers of the Crown receive for a service of this kind?

[No answer was given.]

Drift-Net Fishing At Arklow

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland if the Board have received from the fishermen of Arklow a petition praying for the removal of the restrictions upon drift-net fishing between sunrise and sunset; and, if so, whether the Board have come to any decision on the matter.

THE VICE-PRESIDE VT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOR IRELAND
(Mr. PLUNKETT, Dublin County, S.)

The petition referred to has been received. No decision can be come to in the matter by the Department until an inquiry shall have been held by the Inspectors of Fisheries into the expediency of making a bye-law permitting the use of drift-nets between sunrise and sunset. This inquiry will be held as soon as possible.

Protection Of Irish Fisheries

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland whether the Admiralty have placed at the disposal of the new Department any gunboats to prevent steam trawlers fishing within the proscribed limits.

As I have already stated, the cost of protecting the Irish fisheries from the depredations of trawlers must be defrayed out of the funds at the disposal of the Department for fishery purposes. The Admiralty have decided not to undertake this work.

Have not three gunboats been placed at the disposal of the Board in Scotland for the protection of the country's fisheries?

Lighthouse Authority At Cahirciveen

On behalf of the hon. Member for North Kerry, I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland whether he can state who is the lighthouse or local authority in the Cahirciveen and Valentia districts, county Kerry, and whether, in the event of the Kerry County Council,: who have already made a representation on this matter, being the local authority, the Congested Districts Board will accede to their request, which is supported by the local fishermen, by erecting a bell buoy and perch as already requested in the Cahirciveen and Valentia districts, so as to save the lives and property of men engaged in the fishery industry.

I am informed there is no regularly constituted harbour authority at the places mentioned, but that the Irish Lights Board recognise the County Council of Kerry in the matter of local lights. The question whether the Congested Districts Board may make a contribution to the Kerry County Council in respect of the works referred to at Valentia and Cahirciveen will be considered by the board at their next meeting.

Equalisation Of Dublin Rates

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he proposes to take steps to give effect to the unanimous Report of the Joint Committee of Lords and Commons on the Dublin Corporation Bill, recommending the Government to bring in a Public Bill for the Equalisation of Rates in the Dublin districts analogous to that passed for London, and also enabling a joint rate for drainage and a Joint Drainage Board to be established for Dublin and the townships of Rathmines and Pembroke.

Any recommendation coming from so important a body deserves and will have the careful consideration of the Government, but, of Course, it would be premature for us to announce any policy on the subject at present.

Royal Commission On Local Taxation

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state when the Royal Commission on Local Taxation will present its Report.

I am informed that the Commissioners are not in a position yet to state any date.

Contempt Of Court

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that, so far back as October, 1882, legislation for the curtailment of the power of arbitrary committal for contempt of court was promised in the House of Commons by the Prime Minister of the day; and whether, having regard to the remarks of the Chief Justice of England in April, 1896, and to the fact that one man has actually suffered imprisonment for 743 days for that offence, the Government will take steps for the introduction of legislation to define the power of Judges to commit for contempt of court, and to render that power subject to appeal.

I am afraid I cannot return any very satisfactory answer to this question. I certainly could not give the opinion of the Government without a much fuller opportunity of consulting my colleagues, and, in any case, it would be impossible to attempt any legislation on the subject in the course of the present session.

Business Of The House

Can the First Lord of the Treasury give any information as to the course of business? There is a Blue-book relating to the Cape, the consideration of which is absolutely essential to the discussion of the Colonial Vote. It only came into the hands of such Members as applied at the Vote Office this afternoon, although it was promised it should reach hon. Members this morning. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that this is rather short time to consider it in preparation for to morrow's discussion. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, if he can with convenience to the House and the public, to postpone that Vote and take some other business on Tuesday.

I am sorry that a misadventure has occurred about the Blue-book. These incidents make it very i difficult for the Leader of the House to arrange the business to suit the convenience of the members. Under the circumstances, I will go forward with Bills on Tuesday and Wednesday. I cannot say when the Colonial Vote will be taken, but I will give the earliest notification to the House that is in my power. The Companies Bill will be taken on Tuesday.

May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to fix Monday for the Colonial Office Vote, or, at all events, to give it preference over any other Vote on the very earliest day?

My anxiety is to bring on the Vote as soon as possible, and it is only in deference to appeal made to me in a very responsible quarter of the House that I feel myself reluctantly compelled to postpone the Vote. I must be allowed to consider what date I may fix for it, and I shall be glad to take it on Monday if it is convenient.

Could not the Colonial Vote be taken on Thursday or Friday?

I think that would be inconvenient, as those days have long been allocated.

Highways And Bridges Act (1891) Amendment Bill

Order for Committee read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

Liquor Traffic Local Veto (Scotland) Bill

Order for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Second Reading [2nd May] upon Wednesday, 25th July, read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

County Courts (Ireland) Bill Lords

Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 310.]

New Member Sworn

James Archibald Morrison, Esquire, for the County of Wiltshire (Southern or Wilton Division).

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

On the introduction of this Bill,

Will the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury explain what this Bill is? Judging from the precedent of former years, I expect it will be found to include an atrocious Act with reference to Ireland—an Act passed in 1881, and called the Peace Preservation Bill. Is it included?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House a list of the Bills included in it, instead of dealing with the House of Commons in the cavalier manner of simply raising his hat? I believe there are something like thirty-four Acts included. I should like to give the House some information as to this Act, which was only to last five years, and ever since 1886 has been renewed year by year. It has now come to be a formal proceeding—

*

The hon. Member must be aware that the practice has been not to discuss any particular Bill on the Second Reading, still less on the leave to introduce. The proper time to discuss a particular Act is in Committee, when the schedule is reached.

I will content myself with entering my protest against this method of keeping expiring Acts, and especially this atrocious Act, in force. Bill to continue various expiring Laws, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hanbury and Mr. Attorney General.

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

"To continue various expiring Laws," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 311.]

Military Lands Bill

[SECOND READING.]

Order for Second Reading read.

It may be convenient that I should premise our consideration of the Second Reading of this Bill by a short explanation. The Bill comes down from another place, and since the House of Commons reserves to itself the exclusive right of initiating any proposals which may throw a charge even on local ratepayers, I need not deal with a great portion, at any rate, of the first three sections of the Bill until the Committee stage is reached. The object of the Bill is to amend the Military Lands Act of 1892. That Act, I should like the House to bear in mind, was a consolidating Act and nothing more. It was introduced as such by the late Mr. Stanhope, then Secretary of State for War, and welcomed as such by Mr. Shaw-Lefevre. Governments are too often pressed to introduce Acts to consolidate legislation of this kind, and when they do so they some times incur a certain risk, either for themselves or for their successors. The date of the Act is often mistaken for the date of the policy embodied in the Act, and when defects are revealed in the Act we are told that the policy is comparatively novel and experimental, and that any extension is to be deprecated pending longer experience. I cannot too strongly insist that the Act of 1892 was. a consolidation Act which simply codified previous attempts to achieve certain objects by certain methods. The object of previous legislation was to facilitate the acquisition by Volunteer corps of sites for rifle ranges, and these Acts authorised co-operation between local bodies and Volunteer corps for the purpose of financing the transaction. They also authorised the Secretary of State to draw up bye-laws to ensure that shooting was carried on with safety. The Volunteer Act of 1863, for example, specifically laid down that corporations of various descriptions might transfer land to Volunteer corps for a period of twenty-one years, and authorised the Secretary of State to make bye-laws. It is true that that Act only dealt with the acquisition of sites for rifle ranges, and limited the area to be acquired to four acres; but these limitations disappeared in subsequent enactments. The whole matter, as far as the principle is concerned, is in a nutshell. By the Regulation of the Forces Act, 1871, the power given by the Act of 1863 was extended to the acquisition of land for drill-sheds and any military purpose sanctioned by the Secretary of State, and the provisions of the Act of 1863 were extended to the Yeomanry and the Militia. I need not, however, trouble the House with the Militia, as that force dropped out of all this legislation under the Militia Act, 1882. The House is aware that larger powers have constantly accrued by a series of Acts to popularly elected local bodies as they advanced in importance, and as they advanced also towards their present democratic basis. The whole of this series of Acts giving additional powers to popularly elected local bodies as they advanced in importance was accompanied by another series of Acts authorising local bodies to use these new powers for the very same objects and by the very same methods which were sanctioned by the Act of 1863. That is to say, they might use their new powers in order to facilitate the acquisition of land for Volunteer rifle ranges, drill-sheds, and other purposes. All this legislation was consolidated in the Act of 1892. In the course of the eight years during which that Act has been in operation, one can hardly be surprised to find, as is usual in such cases, that certain defects have been revealed and certain extensions have been suggested, and unless we now remedy those defects and grant those extensions, we shall defeat the purpose and impair the usefulness of the Act of 1892, or rather of the previous Acts embodied in that statute. In the opinion of the Government, never was it more important than now to grant facilities for rifle practice for Volunteers. If we postpone this legislation, or if we fail to pass it, we shall be taking a very great responsibility on ourselves, and we shall also, I think, be showing great mistrust in the use to which popularly-elected bodies may put the fuller powers they now enjoy. I have indicated, and I think I can prove, that the objects and methods of this Bill are in respect to nine-tenths of it precisely the objects and methods sanctioned by previous legislation, and as regards the remaining tenth I might almost say its provisions are obvious. Of course, I am willing to concede that it is not enough to show in this House that a policy is an old one. It is also necessary, when we are asking for further powers, to show that it is a good one, because there are precedents for reversing a policy instead of confirming or extending it. I ask, is it or is it not a good case to say that local bodies shall co-operate financially in order to assist the Volunteer force? I think it is not difficult to prove that it is. It is sometimes urged—I believe it was urged by the hon. Member for Mid Lanark in 1897—that the whole force of anything and everything which tends towards the additional efficiency of the Volunteers ought to borne by the national taxpayer, and that no part of that burden ought to fall, even for a time or with the consent of the ratepayers, on the local body, or on the funds of the corps. That is a very sweeping proposition, and if we entertain it we shall destroy the legislation of the last thirty-seven years. But I submit it is also a very unreasonable proposition. All the Acts and the present amending Bill are based on two principles, which I think give them a very secure and sound foundation. In the first place experience bass down that the local bodies and the Volunteer corps by joining hands can secure all they want in these matters much more cheaply and effectively than the central Government could if we undertook to carry out the operations for them. In some cases it is a question not of purchasing a large fee simple or a large tract of land, but of purchasing some easement over land, and in a case of that kind the local body can approach the occupier with a much greater chance of success than could some officer sent down from the War Office, whose more arrival is the signal for a rise in ground values within a measurable area. There are other cases in which the fee-simple must be purchased, and it sometimes happens that the local body practically control the whole of the available area. In some towns you cannot purchase the site for a drill-hall without the co-operation of the town council. On these grounds of principle, convenience, and economy I claim that the experience we have had under the past Acts amply shows that much better results are obtained by allowing the local body to lend its credit under the Public Works Loans Act. The Volunteer corps cannot, merely by the capitation grant which ic earns, compass some of these operations, but it can very well enter into a bargain with the local body, which may really, in the long run, impose no burden whatever on the rates; for the local body, with its power of borrowing from the Public Works Loan Commissioners, can effect a transaction so cheaply that the corps out of its capitation grant is often able to pay both principal and interest. There is another principle on which all this legislation is based. I waive altogether the fact that the councils of many boroughs have come forward and made offers of the most advantageous character to the Volunteer corps. But we believe it is the duty of every district in this country, since we have no conscription weighing upon this land, to take upon itself a fair share of the burden of national defence. It may be said that the county councils are now being carried away by a mere emotion which will evaporate, and that they are embarking on ventures which, when viewed in a cold fit, will no longer be smiled upon by their constituents. I put all that on one side, and I say that the second principle on which this Bill is based is one which has always been accepted—namely, that persons and bodies ought to pay for considerations received. If a town council, j as representative of a town, or a county J council, as representative of a county, benefits by the construction of a range in a particular locality, then it is only fair they should contribute some portion of the cost. I do not disguise for a moment that the taxpayer has an interest in the provision of ranges and drill-sheds for the use of every efficient Volunteer, but his interest by no means coincides exactly with the interest of the Volunteer or of the town council. The Government in this matter is the trustee for the national taxpayer, and before providing ranges for every Volunteer force, wherever it may be raised, it is bound by the prior claims of the Regulars and the Militia, in the provision of rifle ranges. Owing to the generosity of this House and the patriotic view it has taken of its duty, large sums of public money have been authorised for the construction of ranges for the War Department, and if we deduct from the sum authorised in the Military Works Act, 1897, the amount spent in the acquisition of land on Salisbury Plain, it will be found that £500,000 has been allocated for the construction of ranges. But it is not fair to deduct altogether the sum expended on Salisbury Plain, because there we have erected sixteen rifle ranges, so that half a million of money has been spent or allocated for the provision of rifle ranges, and sixteen additional ranges have been constructed on Salisbury Plain. Until recent times this Government and its predecessors have always maintained that it was not possible or proper for the War Department to directly supply ranges to the Volunteers. We made a departure from that in the Military Works Act of 1899, under which £40,000 was specifically taken in order to provide ranges for the Volunteers, and I may tell the House that it is within the policy of the Government to provide a further sum of £130,000 for the provision of such ranges. But this total expenditure of £170,000 will not enable us to give a range to every Volunteer corps in the country, at its own door or within measurable distance, and if it is to be argued in this House that it is the duty of the national taxpayer to give every Volunteer corps a range within a short distance of its own locality, the burden placed on the country would be out of all proportion to the benefit derived. A great part of the benefit would be derived by individual members of corps and by particular towns, and if the Government is to supply ranges, not only adequate in number, but also in the most convenient places, why then the corollary of that would be that we should have to consider the composition of the Volunteers, the proportion of artillery to infantry, and the distribution of Volunteers all over the country. It would be necessary to make the Volunteers fit the range system, instead of allowing the Volunteers as now to co-operate with the local body in order to arrange a system to suit their own convenience. No Government would make itself responsible for a cut-and-dried constitution of the Volunteer force. They give us the very best available substitute for conscription. Conscription abroad gives a certain amount of military training to every male subject who is mentally and physically fit. Therefore it is not sound policy to say, "We want so many riflemen and so many garrison artillery, and no more." We are bound, if in a certain town a number of artisans come forward and wish to form an artillery battery, almost to allow the formation of that battery; or, again, if in a certain district the population wished to form a rifle battalion the Department is bound to allow it. But if the argument urged by some is to be accepted, that this having once been done it becomes the immediate duty of the Government, in behalf of the taxpayers, to put a rifle range close beside that battery or battalion, the charge put on the taxpayers would be so monstrous that no one would entertain such a policy for a moment. What would happen? The corps is raised, and then comes the demand from the local body that the corps should go into camp close by the local town. Having raised the corps in this patriotic manner they wish to see their friends exercise quite near them, and to take some part of the indirect emoluments, the pleasure parties, and the trade which are derived from a camp and accruing to the benefit of the locality which has raised the corps. But if this benefit accrues to the locality, then I say it does obtain a consideration, and is bound to contribute a certain amount of the cost. Keeping in view the question of pounds, shillings, and pence, the policy and the proposals of the Bill are very reasonable. It would not suit local bodies if the Government were to say that every corps should have a range, say, within fifty miles, and that they must take their chance as to which corps was to have use of it in turn. It is better that the Government on behalf of the taxpayer, the local corps, and the local body on behalf of the ratepayers should be allowed, as they have been allowed in the past, to come to an arrangement which is for the benefit of all three. That was the object of previous legislation, and that is the object we seek to attain by this Bill. It will give a certain amount of elasticity which is found necessary in the objects contemplated -and sanctioned by Parliament. It will be found that the only extension proposed in the first section of the Bill is to authorise local popularly-elected bodies to give and purchase land, and to use the public credit to borrow from the Public Works Loan Commissioners to purchase land for the benefit of the Volunteer force. All that is added by the section is that having done this they may achieve the object they have in view by also lending their credit in order that land may be used for the purpose for which it is bestowed. Unless this is done some of the operations which have been actually entered upon are defeated and rendered of no avail. In 1897 the town council of Hanley gave a site for a Volunteer drill shed. The corps began to build a drill shed on the site, but it was found that the town council could not under the legislation as it now stands transfer to the corps such a title as would enable the corps to use the borrowing powers it enjoys in order to erect a building. There was an absolute impasse; the town council had created a perpetual trust on behalf of the corps, which brought none of the benefits to the corps which they intended to give, and the corps is saddled with the useless burden of a site for a drill shed. It was the intention of the consolidating Act of 1892 that such transactions should be carried through successfully to an object which would redound to the benefit of all. That is why we introduce the words "or may contribute." It is a phrase well known to the law. It is used in cases in which local bodies are allowed to assist certain institutions. If local bodies are allowed by the law to assist local corps to get ranges and drill grounds and sheds, then it is only reasonable that we should frame the Act in such a way as to secure the accomplishment of those objects. I intend in Committee to move an Amendment at the end of line 5, inserting the words "at the request and for the benefit of a Volunteer corps." I do not think that they are quite necessary, but as it stands the section may be misunderstood by hon. Members. They may think that the words "for military purposes" cover intentions which do not exist. All the previous legislation and the consolidating Act of 1892 contemplate such assistance being given only to Volunteer corps and Yeomanry corps. Yeomanry corps for the purpose of this legislation come in as they ought to come in as Volunteer corps, all the more since it is evident that the Yeomanry are becoming largely mounted infantry, and | not cavalry, and that the rifle will be their arm, and not the lance. In passing the legislation of this amending Bill, all we contemplate is the assistance of local Volunteer or Yeomanry corps by popularly elected bodies. As a matter of fact, they did exist in the earlier draft of the Bill, but they were omitted under the idea that it might be possible to bring in rifle clubs under the scope of this legislation. That might be a desirable thing, but since there is no provision for rifle clubs in the earlier Acts to provide for the purchase of sites, it is not clear that we can graft them on in this amending Bill, and it will be necessary at a later date to introduce some special enactment for their benefit. Section 2 extends to urban districts the powers which are conferred on county councils and borough councils. Why not? Urban districts of the size of such places as Aston Manor, with a population of 69,000, or Rhondda Valley, with a population of 88,350, electing their own local bodies, should be allowed, if they please, to use the powers conferred upon them by Parliament for the object which Parliament has sanctioned over and over again during thirty-seven years. Section 4 re-enacts a section of the Artillery Rifle Ranges Act. It gives to the First Lord of the Admiralty the powers which were possessed under the previous legislation, and which will be possessed under this Bill by the Secretary of State. Section 5 is also a drafting section, and Section G avoids the necessity of passing a special enactment for each Provisional Order passed under the Military Lands Act, 1892, a necessity which has arisen from some obscurity in the drafting of the Act. Section 7 applies the Act to Scotland, and Section 8 provides that the measure is to be construed as part of the consolidating Act of 1892. The House will see that the measure, therefore, is strictly an amending Act to the consolidating Act of 1892. I think the House will feel that facilities ought to be given for the acquisition of rifle ranges, and that it is our duty to remedy defects, to grant the extensions which are necessary, if the objects contemplated in previous statutes are to be effectively attained.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Wyndham.)

I will not follow the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary through the previous legislation. I take my stand wholly upon the Military Lands Act of 1892, which, as he says, was a consolidating statute, and which is the existing law. A great deal of what the Under Secretary has said in regard to the powers granted by previous Acts is not embraced within the Act of 1892. He has told us that nine-tenths of the powers asked for under this Bill are embraced in older Acts. If that is so, there is no need for these nine-tenths, but only for the remaining tenth. I would point out that there is nothing whatever in the Act of 1892 that gives the slightest countenance to the things proposed in this Bill. The Act of 1892 was a consolidating statute passed through this House at the end of a session, and, indeed, within a very few days of the prorogation. There was no discussion on it, and the only two Amendments made in Committee were moved on behalf of the Government—one formal, and the other to omit "etc." The legislation of 1892 was therefore the production of the Unionist Government itself, so that whatever praise or blame attaches to that Act attaches to Her Majesty's Government. If the Act has been faulty, that faulty legislation must be laid at the door of Her Majesty's Government. The Military Lands Act of 1892 only dealt with the acquisition of land for military purposes; and the Act defines what military purposes are. They include rifle and artillery ranges, the erection of butts, targets, batteries, and accommodation for the storing of arms for military drill, and other purposes connected with military matters approved by the Secretary of State for War. It is, however, important to note that the Act did not, and does not, authorise the acquisition of land by local authorities for butts, targets, batteries, drill-halls, or other permanent works. The parties who are authorised by that Act to acquire land for military purposes are, first, the Secretary of State for War, who, however, can always acquire all the land for military purposes that he requires. That power is unlimited, and there is no intention on the part of the opponents of this Bill to limit in any measure the power of the Secretary of State for War to erect what- ever works he considers necessary. The second body authorised to acquire land are Volunteer corps, with the consent of the Secretary of State; and the third, the council of a county or a borough, which may, at the request of one or more Volunteer corps, purchase and hold land in behalf of these Volunteer corps for military purposes. Now in the case of purchase by the Secretary of State the money is, of course, provided by Parlia- ment, but in the case of purchase by Volunteer corps, the corps may raise the money by way of loan from the Public Works Loan Commission on the security of the land so acquired, and secondly on that of the grant to the corps provided by Parliament. Now the loans by the Public Works Loan Commissioners are to be repayable within a period of fifty years, and the interest is not to be more than 3½ percent., subject to Clause 1 of the Public Loans Act. There is no question as to my facts.

I rely on the same facts, and I pointed out that this Bill gave reasonable extension.

Then as far as regards land acquired by the Secretary of State, no matter whether the land is acquired for military purposes or not, it is under the control of the Secretary of State, and he can make bye-laws for the protection of the public, etc., and, in short, have full control. Now when a Volunteer corps is disbanded, what is to become of the butts, and building, and the land? You find that when a Volunteer corps is disbanded, if they have acquired land for military purposes and put buildings upon the land, they have no interest whatever in those buildings or the land; the whole goes to the Secretary of State. So that you are asking a Volunteer corps to contribute money for a purpose for which they have the privilege of paying; but when the purpose is served and the land is sold they are to have no right to the money which they have advanced either for the purpose of acquiring the and or for erecting buildings upon it. Where land has been acquired by a Volunteer corps by means of a loan through the borough council, and the Volunteer corps is disbanded before the borough council can appropriate or sell the land, it must be offered to the original owner at a sum to be fixed by arbitration. And we all know perfectly well that on a price to be fixed by arbitration butts and embankments and other military objects which have ceased to be used will not be said to be of any value, but, on the contrary, will be said to depreciate the value of the land. The Act contemplates, of course, use by the public of the land when it is not required for military purposes, so that it will also form an open space, and there is always eventual value in such a property when it ceases to be used for military purposes. Those are reasonable considerations why a local authority should embark in the process of purchasing land in a locality where the land would eventually be valuable to the locality, but butts, rifle ranges, embankments, and drill sheds for military purposes are of no use when they cease to be required for military purposes. There is not much risk to run in acquiring land for military purposes by an easy method of payment extending over fifty years; but it is quite a different thing to-do what this Bill proposes to do, to ask a Volunteer corps, on the faith of a local authority, to expend money in all these things, which, when they are no longer used, only depreciate the land, and not repay them the money they have advanced. There is one subject which the Under Secretary in his résumé did not deal with. He did not deal with the Bill of 1897. If he had looked at that Bill and the state in which it passed he might have seen something to call his attention to the reason why opposition to this Bill was likely to take place. As the Volunteers Act limited the Volunteers and borough councils to acquiring land, the present Government brought in a Bill which was practically word for word Clause 1 of this Bill. It was said that the only object of that Bill was to make plain the Act of 1892, which was meant to give powers to build as well as to acquire land. But the Bill of 1892 did not do that. Now what became of the Bill of 1897? It came up early in the session of 1897 and was opposed, and eventually, in order to get it through, the Government had to submit to a compromise which I had some little hand in carrying through, and the effect of that compromise was that they had to eliminate everything with regard to the councils that would place a penny of expense on the local rates. In that modified form the Government consented to take the Bill, and it passed through the House and it received the Royal Assent early in the session. That being the result of the Bill of 1897 brought in by the Government, can it be supposed that the people who strenuously opposed that Bill would not oppose this, which not only proposes to do everything that the Bill of 1897 did, but proceeds still further in the same direction? Clause 1 of this Bill not only reopens the whole of the questions in the Bill of 1897, but Clauses 2, 3, and 4 introduce new matter of a highly controversial nature. I admire the courage of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War, but if the right hon. Gentleman the present Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, then Under Secretary for War, felt bound to abandon an attempt to burden the local rates in this manner, how does the present Under Secretary for War hope to carry through this Bill this session? The Volunteer corps, who may have contributed three-fourths or nine-tenths, are to have no share or interest whatever in the buildings the moment the corps is disbanded, or after the buildings have ceased to be used for military purposes. Will the Under Secretary of State for War tell us where the Volunteers get the funds for the erection of these buildings and butts? I think they will understand at the War Office, from the Estimates, what money is given for the purpose of erecting butts and targets for Volunteers. That is quite a distinct purpose, and if money is given for that purpose Parliament should give it directly. Let the land be in the name of the Secretary of State for War; let it be subject to his control, and let him be responsible. Supposing you do not get a shilling from a local authority or a Volunteer corps, what is to hinder you from coming to this House and getting every penny you require for the erection of butts, targets, or anything else for military purposes? That is the proper course, and one advantage of it is that you can take it with the most perfect confidence, without having to consult any local authority or without being influenced by any local authority in the matter. You can act in this matter quite independently, because you do not require to consider whether, as regards the site of a rifle range, a certain local body is willing to contribute so much money. Your duty is to consider, in the interest of the Volunteer corps, where the most suitable place would be for a rifle range or the other works for military purposes. I cannot understand where a Volunteer corps is to get the money. Is it to come out of their own money? I have heard complaints that the Volunteers got too little money and require more. I have never voted against any proposal to increase the Vote to the Volunteers; and it appears to me strange that we should have appeals for more money to the Volunteers, and at the same time attempt to pass this Bill, the object of which is to impose on Volunteers the burden of providing rifle ranges and all these other things. There is also this to be said, that a Volunteer corps may hypothecate and pledge in security of their loan from the Public Works Loan Commissioners the Government grant-in-aid which is given for other purposes. Where can be the morality of a transaction of this sort? It puts me in mind of what was done in the case of Ireland, when grants-in-aid to local authorities for the poor and the insane were pledged in security of the payment of certain advances under the Land Purchase Act. That was always considered on this side of the House a most immoral thing to do. I venture to say that no grants are given to the Volunteers or anybody else except for necessary purposes. I find it is proposed that these grants may be pledged for a purpose altogether foreign to those for which the money was specially granted. Observe why this burden is placed on the Volunteers. Simply because it so happens that a certain community are very patriotic and loyal and raise one or more Volunteer corps. Because, forsooth, they happen to do that they are to be called upon to contribute more for military purposes, whilst other districts with an equal or greater population are not to be asked to contribute a single shilling of these expenses. The principle is utterly unsound. Then we come to the power to be conferred on the council of any county or borough. The principle is not a whit more defensible, where it is proposed that the council of any county or borough —

"May maintain and adapt for use, by the erection of buildings or otherwise, or may contribute towards the maintenance or adaptation for use of, any land held for military purposes, and for this purpose may borrow, [and the Public Works Loan Commissioners may lend] in like manner as they may [respectively] borrow [and lend] for the purpose of acquiring land under the Military Lands Act, 1892."
The land is not vested in the county or borough council at all, and it might eventually fall into the hands of the Secretary of State for War. Then they are to borrow the money on the security of the county rate or the borough rate. The purposes for which the money is to be applied are essentially military in their character. There is nothing local as regards its uses. It is rather strange to find this proposal to saddle local autho- rities with the upkeep of things which are essentially for Imperial military purposes, when these local authorities receive out of the Imperial funds grants to mitigate the burden of the local rates. The people who stand in need of assistance for local purposes are to have handed over to them by this Bill a burden for works which are essentially of a military character. They are to be asked to bear this expense because they happen to be exceptionally loyal and patriotic in the way of raising Volunteer corps. They require rifle ranges for the purpose of making themselves efficient. The ranges are only useful to the Volunteers in training for the national defence. Are not the men giving their time and their leisure for the purpose of making themselves efficient? Yet you would say to them, "Oh, these things are being done for your benefit, and therefore you should pay part of the expense." There is one essential! thing with regard to all methods of local rating, and that is that the control of the purpose for which the rates are levied should remain with the local authority. That is why I called attention to the fact at an earlier part of my remarks that this land would be entirely under the control and at the mercy of the Secretary of State for War, and not under local control in any shape or form. You are asking the local authority to tax the ratepayers, while another body outside and independent of them will have the whole power over the expenditure of the money. The local authority will have no say. That is contrary to the principle of local government, which is that everything should be under the control of the representatives of the people in the local council. Clause 2 goes a great deal further than was proposed in 1897. It provides—
"The powers exerciseable by a borough council under the Military Lands Act, 1892, and this Act may he exercised by the council of any urban district, and any expenses incurred by the council of an urban district other than a borough in the execution of those powers shall be defrayed as part of their general expenses incurred in the execution of the Public Health Acts, and any money borrowed by the council for the execution of those powers shall be borrowed in accordance with the provisions of those Acts, and may be lent by the Public Works Loan Commissioners."
This power of the urban district council is open to all the objections I have stated with regard to the granting of similar powers to the council of a county or borough. But there is this further ob- jection, that in the case of the urban district council the expenses are to be defrayed as public health expenses. I daresay the Under Secretary for War is aware of what the effect of that would be. All the moneys which may be borrowed for military purposes will be computed as part of the borrowings under the Public Health Act, with the result that the amount of the borrowing power, which is limited, under that Act to two years of the annual value of the property, may be eaten up for these military purposes, and nothing may be left for the necessary public health purposes. That shows that you will even put the military purposes before the necessary public health purposes. This Bill makes no provision whatever for consulting the parishioners on the question of the expenditure of the money. You put no limit to the borrowing powers, and in this case there is no limit to the extent to which a locality may be rated. The local rating has quite a different incidence of taxation from Imperial rating. In the case of local rating, under the present system you have to make land the assessable commodity, and, in England particularly, the rates are paid wholly by the occupier. There is therefore this curious result in the Bill, that in the case of an urban district council in England the rates will be paid wholly by the occupier, while in the case of Scotland the rates will be paid half by the owner and half by the occupier. If the country is being invaded, who gets the benefit of the defence against that invasion? Surely the owners of landed property and property of all kinds, as well as the occupiers, will got the benefit, and why should the burden of making provision for national defence be placed upon the occupiers only in the case of England? I take it that by giving this power to local authorities there is no intention of having anything done which is not necessary. We may therefore assume that these buildings are all necessary for military purposes. That being so, I ask on what principle the occupier only, the shopkeeper who pays an inordinate share of local rates, should be assessed in this way, while another man, who may have a large income, but only a small rateable value, pays a very small amount? National defence ought to be paid for out of the Imperial purse, in regard to which the contributions are fixed upon the nation as a whole according to what Parliament in its wisdom thinks a proper division, without reference to local considerations. Obviously, the Imperial system of taxation is the best and fairest. Volunteer corps are having these ranges for the purpose of practising for the defence not of particular localities, but of the country as a whole, and there is not a single element of local needs in the matter. Clause 3 introduces a still more objectionable system, namely, that of hiring land—an altogether novel system—for military purposes. The land is to be hired under Sections 9 and 10 of the Local Government Act, 1894.

That certainly does away with that objection. In Clause 4 you introduce a principle which is somewhat novel in its character, and if a novel principle is introduced we expect that that principle should be introduced when there is ample opportunity for its discussion, and not at the tail end of a session. Some parts are, of course, quite unobjectionable. There is no objection to the Navy having the same powers of making bye-laws for lard acquired for naval purposes as the military authorities have, but you touch a most delicate matter when you begin to apply to the sea the same elements of power that you have upon land. If you interfere with any private right, it comes under the Lands Clauses Act; you take care that the landed proprietor shall get his full pound of flesh in such an event; but observe what is done when you deal with public rights. I venture to say the Under Secretary gave us no authority whatever for this mode of dealing with public rights on the sea. In Sub-section 4 "public right" is described as—

"the right of navigation, grounding, anchoring, fishing, bathing, walking, or recreation."
Fishing, for example, I think is most important.

At any rate, under this Bill you claim rights of a most exten- sive character as regards the sea. You do not limit yourselves to the three-mile limit; and you take powers to dispense with those permanent marks which are necessary under the military clause. The powers here sought may seriously affect fishermen, and it must be remembered that this Act applies not only to Scotland and England, but also to Ireland. How are the public rights of fishing and anchoring disposed of here? In the case of a man with a value of £50 at stake, he will get compensation under the Lands Clauses Act, but in the case of a public right of this kind, the whole thing will be given away by the approval of the Board of Trade. One Government Department is to sit in judgment on another Government Department; they may adjudicate upon and sign away the public interest to-morrow, as far as this Bill is concerned. Moreover, there is no redress. If ever there was a case for having a Provisional Order which should come before the House, this would be that case. It is not a case of emergency; it is a matter in which there is plenty of time to make your arrangements and to know your policy; you cannot acquire lands and erect buildings all in a day. It is altogether unreasonable to expect that the Board of Trade should have the right to interfere in this way with the sea and the use of the sea. All I have to say with regard to this Bill is this: that the Under Secretary of State for War seemed to think that if we refuse the powers asked for in this Bill, we will in some way impair the national defence. There never was a grosser mistake than that. The contention here is that if these military works are necessary they ought not to be provided at the expense of the local authority. If they are really necessary, then let the Government make their arrangements and come down to this House and ask for whatever they require for military purposes. The Government would then get the money without being hampered by any local authority, and it is absurd to say that if we reject this Bill we shall prevent the carrying out of any of these military requirements. My suggestion gives you the biggest purse, and we do not ask you to be hampered by the parsimony of any local authority in providing a rifle-butt which is not sufficient, but which is, perhaps, as much as their means will allow. Instead of relying upon the local authority, who ought not to contribute out of the rates, we ask you to come to the Imperial purse and get any money you require. I move that the Bill be read a second time this day three months.

I rise to second this motion, for the purpose of getting a reply from the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary to the important points made by my hon. friend. Previous legislation of this kind has dealt only with land, but this Bill deals not only with land but also with the buildings on the land and other things which do not necessarily belong to the land. Such things ought to come within the purview of the Imperial Government, and should not be put upon local authorities. I entirely agree with my hon. friend when he says that he has not the least desire to minimise or prevent these facilities being given to local rifle corps. The object he has in view is that Imperial funds shall be applied for Imperial purposes, and that no demand should be made upon the local rates for objects which ought to be paid for out of the Imperial purse. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that the House has made a most generous provision at all times whenever it has been called upon by the present Government for military purposes. I have heard that acknowledged over and over again. I have never opposed any provision whatever which has been made for the Volunteers, My own opinion is that the Government have done too little rather than too much for this very useful force. It is not in the faintest degree any opposition to the interests of the Volunteers that has actuated our opposition to this Bill; but, on the other hand, it is a desire that the Volunteer force shall not be crippled in any respect, because one cannot expect that local authorities will pay the same attention to Volunteer regiments as the Imperial authority is able to do. There is another point which my hon. friend raised, which I think deserves the attention of the House. For purposes of this kind we should have complete equality of taxation as between county and county and district and district. This duty is one which lies upon all, irrespective altogether of the place in which they live, and in cases of this kind it is only right that the common purse should be used. Another very important point made by my hon. friend was that the land would remain under the control of the Secretary of State, and not in any way under the control of the local authority; and, moreover, if it ceased to be necessary to use the property, the council would only be able to obtain the unpaid instalments due upon it. There is another point which has also been very properly raised, and it is that money for these purposes will be raised under the Public Health Act, and as the borrowing powers of a council are limited under this Act, and as the purposes for which money is needed under this Act are continually increasing, it would unduly limit the borrowing capacity of an urban or county council if it was found necessary to borrow for military purposes under the Public Health Act. The hon. Member opposite hinted that we had a jealous mistrust of popularly elected bodies exercising these new powers. I should like to know where any jealous mistrust exists on this side of the House of the way in which popularly elected bodies use their powers? We have tried over and over again to obtain further powers for popularly elected bodies, and when the Local Government Act of 1888 was passing the House, attempt after attempt was made to enlarge the powers of local authorities by hon. Members on this side of the House. Therefore it is not from this side of the House that any jealous mistrust of that kind comes, but we do mistrust any raid upon the pockets of the local ratepayers for purposes of this kind. It was certainly not from this side of the House that any opposition came to place the whole of the police entirely under the control of local authorities. We do not jealously mistrust these local authorities, but what we say is that it is not the business of these local authorities to spend money for this particular purpose. We say, moreover, that there are certain powers now exorcised by the local authorities which ought to be taken over by the Imperial authority. For instance, there is the work of port sanitary authorities, which really does not belong to the local authorities at all, but belongs more properly to the Imperial Government. We consider that local authorities stand in such need of assistance that we give thorn £12,000,000 or £13,000,000 a year by way of aiding the local rates. The policy now proposed is inconsistent, and for military purposes strictly Imperial in their character the local purse ought not to be drawn upon. There is one other matter to which I should like to draw the attention of the House for one moment. I was glad that the hon. Gentleman stated that the Bill is to refer only to Volunteers, and for these particular purposes. The position we take up with regard to this Bill is simply that the demand which the Government now make upon the House is to enable local authorities to do work which ought to be done by the Imperial Parliament out of the Imperial Treasury. It is neither just nor fair to call upon local authorities to do this work. At times of great and patriotic excitement there is nobody who wishes to refuse anything that is asked for in this House, and it is the duty of the Imperial Government to carry out this work. We are willing to do all you ask us in order to make the Volunteer force more efficient, and you are not likely, so far as I am concerned, to meet with the slightest difficulty in that direction. I think you might do a great deal more for the Volunteer force to make it effective, but I venture to say that such a proposal as this is not the right way to go about it. Work of this kind should not be put upon local authorities, and matters of Imperial concern ought to be dealt with by the Imperial Parliament.

Amendment proposed—

"To leave out the word ' now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day three months.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

*

I rise for the purpose of expressing my great satisfaction with the Government for bringing in this Bill, and I hope it is their intention to carry it into law. I have listened for a good hour to the speech of the hon. Member for Mid Lanark, and I confess that I was greatly surprised at his line of argument. The hon. Member who has just seconded the motion took a similar line of argument, which is to the effect that the Government ought to provide for everything which is required for the Volunteer corps. For years past the Volunteers throughout the country have been asking the Government for assistance in providing rifle ranges, and two years ago a little flutter was caused when the Government brought in and passed an Act in which provision was made for acquiring rifle ranges in different parts of the country. When, however, the Volunteers asked for a portion of the money allotted for them they were met with this answer—namely, that the whole of that sum would have to be expended in providing rifle ranges for the use of the regular forces. In many parts of the country, and in the county of Gloucester especially, the rifle ranges are far too distant from the head quarters of the Volunteer corps. I heard with great satisfaction from my hon. friend this afternoon that a further sum of £130,000 is to be applied for the purpose of providing rifle ranges for Volunteers. In the case of the rifle corps in my own county, the corporation of the city I have the honour to represent expressed their desire to co-operate with the Government as far as possible in providing these rifle ranges, and I was astonished to hear hon. Gentlemen opposite expressing reluctance to authorise the local authorities to assist in providing ranges. They seem to overlook the fact that the local authorities are under no obligation to take action under this Bill, but I cannot understand on what ground hon. Gentlemen opposite refuse to grant to the elected representatives of district urban councils and town councils permission, under the authority of Parliament, to assist in providing these ranges. I only desire to express the hope that the Government will pass this Bill, for I am sure that the step they have taken is one which will be greatly appreciated by the Volunteers throughout the country.

I do not rise to take part in this debate because I feel the smallest interest in the subject of the Volunteer force, or the rifle ranges with which they are to be provided. The Government are afraid to permit Volunteers being established in Ireland, and accordingly, so far as this Bill deals with Volunteers, it has not the smallest interest for me. The reason I take part in this debate is that on a former occasion when this House took an opportunity of dealing with this subject of rifle ranges for Volunteers the War Office played what I can only describe as a very despicable trick on the public of the three kingdoms, and especially of the country to which I belong. I am not in the habit of using excessive language, but I think when the House hears what was done on that occasion it will not be astonished that I have characterised it as I have. In 1891 one of the most im- portant of these Acts was passed. It was called "An Act to facilitate the acquisition of ranges by Volunteer corps and others," and any Irish Member reading that title, and knowing as we all know that Volunteers are impossible in Ireland, might well have assumed that the Bill had no application to Ireland, and also that it only dealt with the subject of rifle ranges and nothing else. What are the facts? Under that Act the War Office, in breach of the rules of this House, and in breach of the confidence which should exist between Members of the House and the Government, introduced a section depriving the public of these kingdoms for the first time of having the compensation, to which they were entitled when their property was taken away from them by the Crown, fixed by a jury. Until that Act was passed, when the Crown interfered with private property and took it over for rifle ranges or for any other purpose of military defence, it was the right of the subject) to have the compensation to which he was entitled assessed by a jury of his countrymen, but into this Bill facilitating the acquisition of ranges for Volunteer corps a clause was introduced not limited to rifle ranges, but enabling the War Department, whenever they took property in any part of the United Kingdom for any purpose, to have the compensation assessed, not by a jury, but in another mode, and that section was applied to Ireland. When the War Office had to take a large tract of land in the county of Cork from the statutory tenant, who, under the Land Act, has practically a fee-simple subject to a rent, they proposed to have the amount of compensation assessed by two paid removable magistrates, paid employees of the Government, who might be dismissed at a moment's notice.

*

Oh, yes, Sir; I shall show that what I am saying is perfectly relevant.

That is the! point. It was repealed save the one clause to which I have been referring, and which was foisted into a Bill with which it had nothing to do, thereby practising a fraud on the House and the country. I say respectfully that these Military Land Bills are becoming a public nuisance and a public danger. We never seem to be done with them. They began to be passed in 1842, and I will not venture to say how many of them have been passed since then. But it now appears to be the practice that we are to have a Military Lands Bill every session, just as we have an Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. When are we to be done with them? Very few people are acquainted with them. The average Member of Parliament cannot be supposed to understand them, and neither can the average lawyer, because they do not come within the scope of his ordinary practice, and when one of these Military Land Bills is introduced no one except a member of the Government has any cognisance of what it may contain. It is that which enables the War Department to practise its deceit on the House of Commons and the country, as was perpetrated in the Act of 1891. I think we are entitled to ask that the last word should some time or other be said on the subject of taking land from private owners in a compulsory manner for the purposes of military defence. About thirty of these Acts have been passed, and the unfortunate lawyer who is concerned with the subject has to wade through them all. It is not a subject that is treated in the ordinary textbooks, and the lawyer who has to deal with a case has perhaps to read twenty or thirty of these Acts before he knows how the rights of his client may be affected. Why do we not have one single Act, compressed into a reasonable compass and in an accessible form, showing the powers of the Government on the subject? It is a matter in which we in Ireland are very deeply interested. I asked the Financial Secretary of the War Office a question about a project for taking some four miles of territory in the heart of the county Cork for an addition to the Kilworth rifle range. We did not object to these ranges being set up in Cork, although they involved a considerable displacement of the people, but surely there must be some limitation. As I understood the hon. Gentleman, the original proposal would bring about the eviction of about thirty to forty families. That may be very well in England, because when a farmer is turned out of his land he gets compensation, and he can invest his money in a way that will bring him his living. But in Ireland, when a man is turned out of his holding, he has nothing to do but go to America. When I asked the hon. Gentleman a question on the subject he first contradicted me flatly, and if I had not had some acquaintance with the matter, I would have been deceived by his denial, although I am sure he did not intend that.

*

The hon. Gentleman is referring to an answer I gave him a little while ago, and I then informed him that it was never intended to permanently purchase for the purpose of a rifle range the land near Kilworth to which he refers.

My complaint is that the answer of the hon. Gentleman would have had the effect of deceiving me if I had not been acquainted with the subject, and I venture to say that when Members of this House ask questions they ought to expect answers giving full information, and not answers which amount to a deceit upon them, though of course the hon. Gentleman did not intend that result. There ought to be no hugger-mugger about taking four miles of land for military purposes, and when questions are asked they ought to be answered frankly, and we should not be put off with an answer such as that given to me by the hon. Gentleman at first. He gave me further information when he saw I had it already, but if I had not had it I would have been deceived by the flat denial he gave mo. I am sure it was a truthful answer, but it was an answer which had the effect of an untruth, and that is not the sort of answer I desire to get. That illustrates in a remarkable way the difficulties which are involved in these Bills. I will give another illustration of the hardship under which the subject is placed by these Military Land Bills. When the Crown proceeds to take land, litigation is in effect set up between the subject and the Government. The Government can command the best legal advice, whereas the unfortunate occupant whose property is being taken away may be very poor, and even absolutely destitute. That man is placed in a position of being a litigant against the Crown. In a particular case I have in my mind, one of the litigants against the Crown succeeded in establishing in the Queen's Bench in Ireland that the procedure set on foot by the Crown was wholly wrong, and that the Crown were not entitled to do what they were attempting. If an ordinary litigant proceeds against me, and I succeed, I am entitled to get my costs; but when I am a litigant against the Crown the Crown is fighting on velvet, and even if I succeed I cannot get any costs, but if the Crown wins it gets its costs against the subject. I intend for my part to take every opportunity which this Bill will afford to endeavour to effect some reform in this branch of the law. It is quite time some check were put on the extraordinary powers now exercised by the War Office. They are able to fight with all the resources of the Treasury at their back, and when an ordinary litigant gets the advantage of them, and is proved to be right, he nevertheless has to pay his own costs.

I desire to say one word as regards this Bill, not only as a Volunteer —in which capacity I support it in the strongest possible manner—but also as one of the Members representing a great corporation. My right hon. friend the Member for the Ecclesall Division, and myself, have been requested by the Corporation of Sheffield to do all we can to obtain all possible facilities for supporting and encouraging the Volunteers. The Corporation of Nottingham and other corporations have also recognised that it is their duty, if they possibly can, to give facilities for the drill exercise and rifle shooting of Volunteers within their districts. Many of the residents in the great towns are now anxious to follow that example, and to do away with the scandal of having a great force in this country without adequate provision for drill, and without convenient rifle ranges, at a time when so much depends on the accuracy of rifle shooting. The rifle ranges are now removed too far from the Volunteers, and are difficult of access. They do not afford sufficient scope for the use of modern arms, and there is not sufficient space behind the targets. I think landowners are now anxious to fall in with public sentiment, and much must be done in this direction if we are to amend our position. There is something to be said for the suggestion of the hon. Member for Cork that the Government ought to incorporate all these Acts in one compre- hensive measure. We are grateful to the Government for having recognised what has been so often impressed on them—that facilities should be given for the training and exorcise of Volunteer corps, and that no impediment should be placed in the way of any of the great corporations of the country advancing money for such a desirable, useful, and patriotic purpose. I beg to thank the hon. Gentleman who has introduced this Bill. I trust the Government will persevere with it and that on no account will they consent to any modification in any essential particular.

*

I should like to say a few words on this Bill, as I have repeatedly drawn attention to the necessity for making provision for the rifle practice of the Volunteers. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken speaks on behalf of a very wealthy corporation, and a corporation which has a direct interest in the Volunteer movement. I do not wish to reflect in any way on the patriotism of Sheffield, but it is perfectly obvious that in that corporation there may be rather a strong feeling in favour of the expenditure of public money on the Volunteer movement.

*

Perhaps I may have stretched that argument further than it is worth, but hon. Gentlemen will see that possibly a corporation like Sheffield may have a motive in aiding the Volunteers which may not exist in other parts of the country. It seems to me that we ought to consider other parts of the country, and reflect what would be the result, or rather the failure to produce any result, of a Bill like this. I imagine in many agricultural districts there will be great reluctance to call upon the rates for these purposes, and also in many of the heavily rated towns throughout the country. What I have already said will show the Under Secretary for War that I am not out of sympathy with the proposals of the Bill, so far as they go towards extending the power of the local authorities. But it seems to me that the proper form in which to pass a Bill of this nature would be to introduce amendments enabling the Exchequer to make such advances as may be necessary to facilitate the provision of ranges wherever they may be needed. I do not think this Bill will be worth the paper on which it is printed in a great many parts of the country if there is no Imperial subvention to it. I admit we may do this as a matter of local duty to a certain extent, but surely the main argument we have to consider is the extension of the Volunteer movement as an effective instrument for the defence of the country. I therefore say that my hon. friend the Member for Mid Lanark was amply justified in urging the necessity of providing out of public funds for this purpose. Owing to the continuous increase in land values it is impossible for Volunteers to provide these ranges for themselves, and even local authorities may find it difficult, owing to the rapidly increasing value of land. The upshot therefore will probably be that where there are no rich corporations like Sheffield, nothing will be done in the matter, and it seems to me that it is an Imperial duty to do what we can to assist the Volunteer movement. I have always fought against the idea of treating the Volunteer movement as merely a means of providing a certain number of men who may be turned into useful recruits for the regular Army. The Volunteers ought to be treated as an integral part of our system of defence, and developed on those lines. Having regard to these facts, the plain duty of the Government is to introduce a clause providing that the Exchequer shall aid the local authorities in these matters. So far as I am aware, in the provision made last year, nothing was done beyond making an additional allowance to enable Volunteers to attend rifle ranges, and, in the emergency scheme of February last, aid was to be given as to transport and new guns, but not as to ranges.

*

I hope the Government will pass this Bill. As regards Sheffield and other districts we must remember that the bulk of the Volunteer force is recruited from such large centres of population. This Bill is really to enable local bodies to provide, or assist in providing, rifle ranges, drill halls, and drill grounds. Very often corporations or local authorities have the means, without any or with hardly any expense to themselves, to assist in providing these. I know one place, with which I am intimately con- nected, where something like twenty acres have been provided, the use of which is to be given for drilling the Volunteers at such times and hours as may be convenient to the corporation. There is another direction in which the Volunteer force may be assisted. If an individual, endowed with public spirit, may assist his country by providing rifle ranges and drill halls, why should not the community be allowed, if they feel the same spirit, to grant that encouragement to the Volunteers? It is thought that the rifle meeting at Bisley this year has not been what it should be because the rifle ranges throughout the country have not been equal to the requirements of the force. It seems to me that this is a practical enabling measure, and I trust that it will be unanimously and quickly passed through the House.

I am not surprised that my hon. friend behind me should have made an elaborate onslaught on this Bill. In the first place, the Bill is of a somewhat confused character, and it shares the charm of a good deal of the legislation to which we are accustomed nowadays, in that it embodies so much reference to one statute and another. There is so much cryptographic matter in the whole of our legislation that it is very difficult for plain men to understand what it all means; and I am bound to say, even after the hon. Gentleman's speech, that I do not altogether understand this Bill. At the same time my hon. friend was very naturally led to point to one result of this kind of legislation—namely, that it tends to place a portion of national defence in a somewhat undue degree on certain shoulders while securing immunity for others. Sheffield may be taken as an example. Sheffield is very patriotic, enterprising, and enthusiastic, and it is willing to spend money on the Volunteers. In doing this the town voluntarily, and in a, praiseworthy spirit, makes a contribution to the defence of these islands which is greater in proportion than it ought to be called upon to pay. The expenses of the Volunteers ought to be a national and Imperial cost, as far as it falls upon the public at all, and not a local cost. I have always thought that it was rather a shabby thing to say to localities, when they were claiming to be defended by forts and fixed defences, that they should subscribe or show that they were willing to bear a part of the cost of the defence works. I know that that argument was used to the city of Edinburgh, and I have always thought, although I have used it myself, that it was an extraordinary argument to employ. Probably the same thing might be said of my hon. friend's indictment of this Bill. But at the same time I hope that my hon. friend will not divide the House against the Bill. I would press upon him this fact, that the action taken by the municipalities and public bodies is entirely voluntary; if they do not choose to take part in this public service to the Volunteers they need not do so. That takes away the greater part of the sting of his attack. There may be defects in the Bill which can be cured or modified, but in the main I think that the House generally will sympathise with the general object of the Bill. It is somewhat singular to find that in 1897 this identical proposal was put forward by the Government, and at the very hey-day of the session they were obliged to drop it owing to the strong feeling against it. This feeling does not appear to be so strong in the present dog days. My attitude towards the Bill I must confesses is that I think this is not the time for the House to deal with a comparatively small matter; that the War Office would be much better employed with the heavy duties connected with actual warfare, and that the Department might very well leave these legislative proposals to be dealt with in quieter times. That is my view, and it applies to this Bill as well as to others. But the Bill, owing to its purely voluntary character, is not likely to cause any great injustice in any part of the kingdom. If it does anything to facilitate the training and increase the efficiency of the Volunteers, then I think that these are objects which the House as a whole will be ready to further and aid.

I feel I must express my obligations to the right hon. Gentleman for having given me practically his support in the passage of this measure. I know that he includes this in a certain category of Bills, which he tells us we ought not to have undertaken at this time. He says these are small measures, and they should be postponed till after the war is over, and until we can address ourselves to the task of making the British Army adequate to any calls that can be made upon it. I do not think that argument ought to weigh much. It reminds me of a practice which I myself often indulge in—namely, of putting off writing letters on Monday because I have to prepare a speech for; Tuesday. The best way of placing the Government in a proper position to deal with the grave questions to be faced, is to pass amending Bills to ensure perfect legislation of the character which has been described. It is true that the Bill contains a great deal of legislation by reference. It refers back to the Military Lands Act of 1892, and that refers to the Lands Clauses Compensation Act and various others. I admit that I have often denounced legislation by reference, but I have become somewhat converted to the practice, and I think that there is a great deal to be said for it. After all, the powers of purchasing and borrowing possessed by the local bodies are familiar to them; they know the provisions in the Act under which they exercise these powers, and it is far more simple to refer the authorities back to the Acts than to recite the same powers over again. If you recite them over again you sometimes raise a doubt. In law, as in. travel, the shortest way is the way you know. If I am to meet the objections urged by the hon. Member for Mid Lanark I would only repeat the arguments which I ventured to submit earlier in the afternoon. I do not think that as things are it can be fairly urged that the whole cost of the efficiency of the Volunteers should necessarily be borne by the taxpayers, and that no part should be borne by the ratepayers. Certainly the Government, as representing the taxpayer, ought to see that every corps should have reasonable access to a range; but many corps and many councils wish for more than that. They wish the annual camp, perhaps, to be in the park near the town, and they wish to have a range near that park; and the mayor and corporation come to the Government and say: "We are quite prepared to spend a certain amount of money in providing a range if you will allow the Volunters and the Yeomanry to come out and camp in the park." There is the consideration for both parties, and why should not each party pay for such consideration as it asks for? I am authorised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that £70,000 of the taxpayers' money will be found for the scheme, and local authorities will contribute the other £70,000 for advantages received. That is my defence of the principle which underlies the Bill, and I must adhere to my opinion.

I observe the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War has sat down without making a single observation in regard to the charges of oppression made under the Consolidating Military Lands Act in Ireland. It is all very fine for you to bring in a Bill dealing with your own country, and with your own affairs, and it is all very fine for you to be patriotic, but why should you rob us? That is precisely what the Military Lands Act has done ever since it was first passed. It is a remarkable fact that this is a Bill which nobody can understand. Certainly it is the first time I have known you, Mr. Speaker, to have arrived at a ruling that a, Bill was so badly drawn that the Speaker could not understand it. That is what has happened in the course of this debate, and the Under Secretary for War should give up the system of legislation by reference. I ask the hon. Gentleman why is it that in all the operations connected with these Acts in Ireland a desire is evinced to plunder the people of the whole of the lands taken for military purposes, while in England you are prepared to give forty to forty-five years purchase for lands similarly acquired. In Ireland the state of the law is that you provide two removable magistrates to assess the price of the land to be taken from the tenants. You might as well, if a railway company is to take land in England, appoint two railway porters at random to fix the price of the land compulsorily taken for the railway. Why should we tolerate the extension of this system in Ireland? Not long ago foursquare miles were taken from the Curragh of Kildare. That was an act of public plunder, and the people who had had for centuries the; rights of grazing on the Curragh were not paid a single shilling of compensation. I suppose that can be defended on the grounds of public policy! The meanness of the procedure was also exhibited in the case of the compulsory acquisition of one of the most beautiful spots in Wicklow, belonging to Mr. Stuart Moore. I asked twenty questions in this House on the subject before Mr. Moore, although he is a Unionist, could get the compensation to which he was entitled. Then there was the case of Bere Island, taken by the Admiralty. The right of the tenants to compensation was to be decided by two removable magistrates, but it was actually subsequently laid down in a superior court that the Government were wrong in that particular procedure, although no costs were given against the Crown. Is it to be supposed that we in Ireland should agree to pass a measure of this kind, which has a different operation in Ireland from what it has in this country? One of the principal clauses of the Act was drawn in consequence of an Irish decision. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman, does he understand Clause 6?

The hon. Gentleman does understand it! Well, I should, like to read it to the House—

"Notwithstanding anything in Section 2 of the Military Lands Act, 1892, the period of three years mentioned in Section 123 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, shall be calculated from the passing of the Act confirming any Provisional Order under the Military Land's Act, 1892, and not from the passing of the Military Lands Act, 1892."
And the right hon. Gentleman understands that? Well, I congratulate him. To a certain extent I understand it myself, because it was drawn in consequence of a decision upon a point raised in Ireland in respect to the taking of land, but I do not believe that any person, except a specialist like the hon. Gentleman upon this point, could understand that section. One would gather from the Bill that it docs not apply to Ireland, because it begins by saying, "In the application to Scotland the following provision shall have effect." There is not a word about Ireland. It deals entirely with Volunteers, and as there are no Volunteers in Ireland one would naturally assume that it did not apply to Ireland. But the proposition I would make is this. Give us back trial by jury when you take our land for military purposes. We do not want our lands to be taken at all, but if you do take them do not take them at twenty years purchase as you have done in the past, take them at thirty-five years purchase. Let us have the benefit of English arbitration with its 10 per cent. Give us back the old right we had ten years ago, when land was taken under the Lands Clauses Act—the power to traverse before a jury. I notice that whenever the Lands Clauses Act is referred to in this case it is the English Lands Clauses Act and not the Irish Lands Clauses Act at all. Is it a fact that you are not going to take three square miles of land at Glenbeigh such as you stated you would take from the county council because, if it is, why do you not write a letter to the county council saying that the land is no longer necessary, and ease the minds of these poor people who are expecting to be evicted? Have you done so? It was not done up to Saturday. You have not had the courtesy to do that. No doubt, in this House, Ministers can be courteous when they think their whole time will be taken up; but go down to Glenbeigh when they are beginning gun practice and laying their big guns—there we get scant courtesy. No human being is allowed to show his nose in the whole of that magnificent glen, which has been taken from us. The offers made upon which you take the land of Ireland do not show the consideration which you show in England. You select any part of the country which pleases you; you do not care a button for the people or their struggling sons, or whether it is a pleasure ground like the Curragh, which you took. If it pleases you, you take it. I can quite understand that if you occasionally purchased as much as a pocket-handkerchief for your troops in Ireland, the objection would not be so great; but you do not. The whole of your military system is supplied from this country; of the £50,000,000 you have spent for South Africa, not a farthing has been spent in Ireland; you have not bought so much as a biscuit. Then why should you buy Irish land so cheap? Give us back our trial by jury. Give us the privilege which the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself enjoyed, of selling land at thirty-five years purchase. We shall move to this Bill Amendments restoring the procedure of the Lands Clauses Act, and endeavour to give the people of Ireland some of the protection which it is desired to give. It is of no consequence to us what Government is in power in Ireland. If Ireland was invaded by the Chinese or the Turks it could not be governed in a worse manner than it is by the system which you have forced upon us, and which has been a curse to us from the first day you landed on our shores.

said that the owners of the land at Kilworth, taken for military purposes, were perfectly satisfied with the price paid by the Government.

confessed his inability to fully comprehend all the clauses of the Bill, but to the object of it he gave his general support. The company with which he was associated had always taken a very great interest in the Volunteer movement, and they had a great many in their employ who were Volunteers, and they found that owing to the habits of discipline which they acquired they made the best workmen. It was a scandal that the burden of supporting such a magnificent institution should be allowed to fall upon individuals, and he was not satisfied with the Bill as it stood, and

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Allsopp, Hon. GeorgeDilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesLowe, Francis William
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert HenryDonkin, Richard SimLowles, John
Atkinson, Right Hon. JohnDouglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent)
Baillie, James E. B.(InvernessDyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. HartLucas-Shadwell, William
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)Elliot. Hon. A. Ralph DouglasMacartney, W. G. Ellison
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton)Macdona, John Cumming
Banbury, Frederick GeorgeFellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.Maclure, Sir John William
Barnes, Frederic GorellFinch, George H.M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts)Finlay, Sir Robert BannatyneM'Ewan, William
Bartley, George C. T.Firbank, Joseph ThomasM'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H.(Bristol)Fisher, William HayesMalcolm, Ian
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.FitzGerald, Sir Robert PenroseMaple, Sir John Blundell
Bethell, CommanderFitz Wygram, General Sir F.Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.Flannery, Sir FortescueMellor, Colonel (Lancashire)
Bill, CharlesFlower, ErnestMendl, Sigismunde Ferdinand
Billson, AlfredGarlit, WilliamMiddlemore, J. Throgmorton
Blundell, Colonel HenryGiles, Charles TyrrellMonckton, Edward Philip
Bolton, Thomas DollingGorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. EldonMonk, Charles James
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo OrmeGoschen, George J. (Sussex)Montagu, Sir Samuel (Whitec'l)
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)Goulding, Edward AlfredMore, R. Jasper (Shropshire)
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)Gunter, ColonelMorgan, Hn. Fred.(Monm'thsh)
Brassey, AlbertHamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord GeorgeMorrison, James A. (Wilts, S.)
Butcher, John GeorgeHanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.Haslett, Sir James HornerMurray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Cavendish, V.C. W.(Derbysh.)Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cayzer, Sir Charles WilliamHedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)Hehler, AugustusMyers, William Henry
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)Henderson, AlexanderNicol, Donald Ninian
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Bir.)Hermon-Hodge, K. TrotterNussey, Thomas Willans
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)Holland, William HenryOldroyd, Mark
Channing, Francis AllstonHornby, Sir William HenryO'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryHorniman, Frederick JohnPalmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)
Charrington, SpencerHouldsworth, Sir William H.Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)
Clare, Octavius LeighHowell, William TudorPhilipps, John Wynford
Coddington, Sir WilliamHudson, George BickerstethPhillpotts, Captain Arthur
Coghill, Douglas HarryJones, David Brynmor (Sw'ns'a)Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)
Cohen, Benjamin LouisKeswick, WilliamPlatt-Higgins, Frederick
Collings, Rt. Hon. JesseKimber, HenryPlunkett, Rt. Hon. H. Curzon
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. AtholeLafone, AlfredPowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd)Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn)Purvis, Robert
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley WLawson, John Grant (Yorks.)Pym, C. Guy
Cox, Irwin Edw. BainbridgeLecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H.Rankin, Sir James
Cripps, Charles AlfredLeigh-Bennett, Henry CurrieRasch, Major Frederic Carne
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a)Remnant, James Farquharson
Curzon, ViscountLockwood, Lt.-Col. A.R.Rickett, J. Compton
Dalrymple, Sir CharlesLoder, Gerald Walter ErskineRidley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(CardiganLonsdale, John BrownleeRitchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson.

it was possible that he would support some of the Amendments which would be moved in the course of the Committee stage, as he was somewhat alarmed at the idea of the local authorities having the power to take any land they might consider suitable for rifle ranges. There was a considerable element of danger in rifle ranges, and he thought some safeguards ought to be introduced in the Bill to insure that any land that might be taken for rifle ranges would be taken in such places as would reduce the element of danger to the public as much as possible.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 186; Noes, 47. (Division List No. 230.)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)Stone, Sir BenjaminWharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)Strachey, EdwardWhiteley, H.(Ashton-under-L.)
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. MylesTalbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.)Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Savory, Sir JosephTennant, Harold JohnWilliams, Joseph P.- (Birm.)
Sharpe, William Edward T.Thornton, Percy M.Willoughy de Eresby, Lord
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. MurrayWilson, John (Falkirk)
Simeon, Sir BarringtonTrevelyan, Charles PhilipsWodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R.(Bath)
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)Tritton, Charles ErnestWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield)Wylie, Alexander
Soames, Arthur WellesleyWallace, RobertWyndham, George
Spencer, ErnestWalton, John Lawson (Leeds S.)Young, Gommander (Berks, E.)
Stanley, Sir Henry M. (Lambeth)Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. K.(Kent)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Steadman, William CharlesWarr, Augustus FrederickSir William Walrond and
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'TaggartWelby, Lt. Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n)Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.Reid, Sir Robert Threshie
Allison, Robert AndrewHutton, Alfred E. (Morley)Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)Joicey, Sir JamesScott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Blake, EdwardTones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Brunner, Sir John TomlinsonLawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)Spicer, Albert
Burns, JohnLewis, John HerbertStanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Buxton, Sydney CharlesLough, ThomasSullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Caldwell, JamesMacaleese, DanielSullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Cameron, Robert (Durham)MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn'sC.)Wedderburn, Sir William
Clark, Dr. G. B.M'Dermott, PatrickWhittaker, Thomas Palmer
Crombie, John WilliamM'Ghee, RichardWilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Doogan, P. C.M'Leod, JohnYoung, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Fenwick, CharlesMaddison, Fred.Yoxail, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel FordNorton, Capt. Cecil William
Gurdon, Sir W. BramptonO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Hammond, John (Carlow)Pickersgill, Edward HareMr. T. M. Healy and
Healy, Maurice (Cork)Power, Patrick JosephMr. Patrick O'Brien.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

Volunteers Bill Lords

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR (Forfarshire) , said that upon the Amendment which was down on the Paper in his name it was not necessary to reiterate the arguments that were adduced against the Bill on the Second Reading. He had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would have seen his way not to have proceeded with this Bill at all this session. He had no desire to impede any measure which could be shown to be useful to the Volunteer or military forces of the country, but the change which was proposed in this clause was far greater than any which had on the two previous occasions been suggested, in principle if not in words. On both those occasions the matter had

been considered and the proposal was not pressed. Upon the present occasion the suggestion was that the same words should be used in the case of the Volunteer Act as were used in the Militia and the Reserve Forces Acts which regulate the calling out of those forces. But the Volunteer force was upon an entirely different footing. The Volunteers were entirely for home defence, and the Militia and Army Reserve, whose duty it was to supplement and strengthen the first line of defence of the. country, could not be considered in any way to be in the same category as the Volunteers. The object of the clause was to apply the words which were used in the Acts governing those forces to the use of the Volunteer Act. The words "actual or apprehended invasion" covered every possible emergency for which it might be necessary to call out the Volunteers, at least there was no evidence to the contrary. There was evidence that the words were considered from that point of view when the Volunteer Act of 1863 was brought in, and evidence had been adduced in the debate upon the National Defence Act of 1888, and also in the discussion which took place in 1895, in the direction of showing that after full consideration it was decided and determined that those

words which it was now proposed to change were the most appropriate words for the Volunteer Act, and therefore should never be changed. The first attempt to alter the position of the Volunteer force in recent years was in the National Defence Bill of 1888. That contained a clause which practically applied to the Volunteer force the Militia Act. Any one referring to the discussion upon the measure would find that the wishes of the Government then were precisely the same as they were now—namely, to apply the Militia Act to the Volunteers. The proposals received considerable discussion in this House, and exception to those words was taken by the late Sir E. Hamlin, who pointed out that there was no utility in suggesting that there might be other circumstances in which the Volunteers might be required, because those were not circumstances which were applicable to the Volunteers, though they might be to the Militia and Army Reserve forces. It was necessary to recollect that the Volunteers were for home defence, and it was only for that purpose that that force was to be regarded. He pointed out the great danger which might arise as to the efficiency, strength and popularity of the Volunteers if without very deliberate and careful consideration the burden of liability upon them was increased. It could not be too strongly emphasised that the Volunteer force depended for its strength upon its popularity, consisting as it did of civilians who had to depend for their living upon their daily work, and an irreparable injury might be done to the force if the great burden of the Militia service was laid upon them. The result of the discussion in 1888 was that the proposal was dropped because it received so little encouragement in this House. The next occasion on which this matter came before the House was in connection with the Bill of 1895. That Bill was one of the consequences of the Committee to which the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War alluded on the Second Reading of this Bill. The Committee sat in 1894, under the presidency of the Financial Secretary of the War Office of the late Government, and considered a number of matters in connection with the Volunteers. To make a long story short, just as the Government of 1888 refused to proceed in the direction contemplated by this Bill, so did the

Government of 1895, even after consideration of the subject by the Committee which sat in the previous year. There was every evidence to show that the Government of that day and the Financial Secretary had considered what steps they should take, and how far they should go in regard to laying further liabilities on the Volunteer force. On that subject the then Under Secretary for War said—

"The Secretary of State, after consulting his advisers, especially those responsible for the administration of the reserve forces, came to the conclusion that it would be inexpedient to render the Volunteers liable to be called upon except in the most urgent circumstances."

He went on to say that it appeared very important to the Government that they should preserve the voluntary character of the Volunteer force, and that the conditions under which they should be required to render military service should be restricted. The Government of 1895 proposed that the Secretary of State for War should be empowered to accept service on the part of individuals or any part of a corps "in case of imminent national danger or emergency." That was the extent to which they were prepared to go. On that occasion the Liberal Government received the support of more than one distinguished Volunteer officer on the other side of the House. The hon. Member for Lewes cordially supported his right hon. friend the Financial Secretary in the action that the Government then took in this most important matter, and the hon. Member for Hereford, who took part in the debate, heartily endorsed the policy of the Government in proceeding cautiously and tentatively in regard to the laying of further liabilities on the Volunteers. He did not know what might be the opinion of those hon. Gentlemen at the present time. He was perfectly certain there would be very little difficulty on either side in proceeding to the consideration of any careful scheme that might render the Volunteer service more efficient, but he thought it was greatly to be regretted, at this time of the session, that this proposal should be brought forward, especially when they remembered that it was a proposal which had not been definitely made in terms before, and the tendency of which had been rejected, not by one, but by two Governments. He hoped that even now it might seem to the Government un-

desirable to proceed with this particular measure. What he wanted to point out on this occasion was that in a matter dealing with the Volunteer force— changing its whole position and status, and increasing the liability to service—in his humble judgment the Bill was not lightened by the dropping of the latter part. It was quite natural that the Government should decide to drop that part, considering the welcome it received last week The first clause was a proposal to increase the obligations of the Volunteer force. If that were wise, he was sure that the Committee on a future occasion would be quite ready to consider it; but it seemed to him, seeing that proposals having a similar tendency had been rejected before, undesirable on this occasion that they should proceed any further with this measure. He moved to leave out Clause 1.

Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

For my own part I can say, as one who has been connected for many years with the Volunteers, and as representing my own regiment, that I think this change suggested by the Government is absolutely necessary in the interests of the country. The Volunteer Act of 1863 only provided for the calling out of the Volunteers in case of actual invasion. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the rejection of the clause has served for a considerable period in the Army, and must know that if the Government delay calling out the Volunteers—230,000 men— to repel invasion until a hostile fleet is actually off the coast, or the enemy has actually set foot on our shores, it will be too late to render any effective service; and it has been long felt not only by the Volunteers and their commanding officers, but by the great mass of the force, that they will be prevented from giving effective service to the country, which it is their desire to give, not only in the event of the country being in grave difficulty, but especially in the event of invasion, if their services are not utilised until actual invasion has occurred. The hon. Gentleman opposite is correct in a certain part of the historical retrospect which he gave. It is true that Mr. Stanhope was much impressed with the necessity for something being done, and a Bill was brought forward in the session of 1888. There was a certain amount of opposition. There was a great deal of business remaining undischarged, and in the circumstances it seemed desirable that the Bill should be dropped, but there was no serious opposition to it on the part of the great mass of the Volunteer force. I have the clearest recollection of what took place. In 1894 the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, then Secretary of State for War, assented to the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the working of the Volunteer Acts and the legal condition and status of Volunteers serving under those Acts. The Financial Secretary of the War Office, the Member for Hanley, was chairman of that Committee. The recommendation of the Committee upon this particular matter was in consonance with the unanimous agreement as to the great desirability of these words being altered. For my own part, I think if the Government is to blame it is to blame for not introducing a measure of this sort before. I regret that Mr. Stanhope did not press the measure forward. It is no use introducing these measures unless the Government intends to use its majority to give effect to them. I earnestly hope that my hon. friend will not be deterred by any sign of opposition, but will persevere with this measure. I have got up to give the views of the Volunteers. The hon. Gentleman opposite affected to speak for the Volunteers It is desirable that those who speak for the Volunteers should qualify themselves by going through the service. My hon. friend who proposed the elimination of the clause said he greatly feared it would have a prejudicial effect on the recruiting for the Volunteer force. He will admit, I think, that I am very largely interested in the welfare of the force, and that it is not at all likely I should advocate a change which would entail an extra burden on those with whom I am so closely associated. I can assure you that the Volunteers thoroughly understand the meaning of the section, and the great mass of them—although among such a body as 230,000 men some may fear it will impose increased liability upon them—think the proposed change absolutely necessary in the interests of national defence. That being so, I earnestly hope that the Government having seen fit to introduce this measure, will place it this year upon the Statute-book.

I cannot speak, as my hon. friend does, in the name of all the Volunteers. Let us hope that he will not regard with superior contempt, which he does not always display, those who happen to differ from him. He spoke with something like contempt of hon. Members in some parts of this House who ventured to contest his doctrine as to what the Volunteers throughout the country desire. We all know that my hon. and gallant friend is a distinguished Volunteer, but I know many cases where Volunteers differ in opinion, and where he is in a minority, On this occasion I cannot accept his pontifical assertion as absolutely conclusive in the matter. This is a clause we all thought, and I in the innocence of my heart thought, was a comparatively harmless clause; but I have since looked a little more closely into the matter, and I find that although on the first blush it may seem to be very much the same thing to talk of "actual or apprehended invasion of any part of the United Kingdom" and "imminent national danger or great emergency," yet there has been found in these words a difference which deserves to be maintained. The hon. Gentleman referred to the speech made in the discussion in 1887 by the late Sir Edward Hamley. He was a distinguished soldier, and one of the greatest authorities on military questions from the constitutional point of view we have had in my time in the House, and he was emphatically of opinion that it would be almost fatal to the character of the Volunteer force if you were to alter these words. The Volunteer force is purely raised and maintained for domestic defence.

Not as Volunteers. They have entered into a new engagement. There is not a single Volunteer serving out of the country, and such a thing has never been contemplated, and you can see the confusion we would got into if you did not keep up a distinction between the forces. What would be the distinction between the Militia and the Volunteers if you abolished the present distinction? Here I am reminded of a pamphlet or paper which I read at the time. It was called, "A Discussion held by a Body of Volunteer Officers," whom I think my hon. and gallant friend will consider of some authority. I do not think the Queen's Edinburgh Volunteers a very bad corps among all the distinguished corps in the Volunteer service, and I do not think that the present Lord Justice Clerk, Lord Kings-burgh, formerly Mr. Macdonald, is a mean authority on the subject. At a discussion in connection with the East of Scotland Tactical Society on the Report of the Committee to which reference has been made, they scouted the proposal to substitute a vague term for an exact term. Colonel J. B. Sutherland said—

"Under these conditions, and with the proposed altered phraseology, the Volunteer forces might conceivably be called upon to perform garrison duties at home when there was no prospect of either actual or apprehended invasion. I venture to think that this is no part of the duties of the Volunteer force. If garrison duties are to be performed in order to relieve the Regular forces, these duties should be performed by the Militia, and if the Militia is not strong enough for the purpose, the authorities have the remedy in their own hands by enforcing compulsory service in the Militia."

It was 1895. This distinction that the Volunteers are not to be called upon for actual military service except under the threat of immediate invasion is not a mere fancy, not a mere phantasmal case to make a distinction between one and another. It rests upon this—What would happen if there was an actual or immediately impending invasion? All the business of the country would come to a standstill, and those men who are Volunteers would be free, without loss of professional or commercial position, to take part in the discharge of their duties. At this same symposium which I have quoted, Captain Hunter said—

"The main difficulty of the question lies in this double individuality which each Volunteer possesses. A regular soldier, no matter what his rank, has one individuality and one only; and it is in his military capacity that he earns his livelihood. I, on the other hand, am two distinct and separate individuals; I am Mr. Hunter, chartered accountant, and I am also Captain Hunter, but Mr. Hunter is of vastly greater importance to me than Captain Hunter is. It is in my civil capacity that I earn my livelihood, and I have only engaged to undertake military service when, by 'actual or apprehended invasion ' the country shall have been reduced to such a state that it will be impossible for me to carry on my profession. If the Com- mittee's proposals are carried out, I shall find myself liable to military service under conditions where there is nothing to prevent me from carrying on my civil occupation."
That is a view which will no doubt occur to many Volunteers. That is the ground on which it is urged that a change of this sort, although my hon. and gallant friend the Member for Central Sheffield does not believe it, may prejudicially affect the recruiting for the Volunteers. Here are the words used by one of the greatest authorities on the subject—
"Brigadier-General Macdonald, C.B., in closing the discussion, said that he was strongly of opinion that the liability for service, as at present provided for, was quite sufficient, and that the proposal to alter the words ' actual or apprehended invasion' to ' imminent national danger or great emergency,' was in all respects an unwise one. If the words suggested were inserted there might be rashness on the part of military authorities at any time in calling out the Volunteers. His feeling arose mainly from this, that they were substituting for phrases which had certain and definite meanings, words which had uncertain and indefinite meanings. 'Imminent national danger' and 'grave emergency' were phrases of very uncertain import, under which the Volunteers might be called upon to do duties differing very materially from those contemplated under the constitution of the force."
He went on to say that it might prejudicially affect the position of the force. I do not think these are opinions of Volunteers deserving to be cast aside, even on the high authority of my hon. and gallant friend. When I heard him lay down the law in so peremptory a manner I thought that the sooner I addressed the Committee the better. One point which the hon. Gentleman urged in commending this clause to the House the other day on the Second Heading was that we got rid of the awkward and inconvenient necessity for a proclamation. But a proclamation is required for calling out the Reserves or embodying the Militia; so that one more will not matter. I do not think there is much force in that. I would urge on the Committee not to make the change now—a change which has been repudiated by the House on more than one occasion, which has been condemned by high authorities, although, of course, not so high as my hon. and gallant friend—a change of which we cannot at present quite fathom and measure the ultimate effect. What is the necessity for the Bill?

The Bill has been recommended by the Committee appointed by the late Government.

My hon. friend the Member for Hanley, who was Chairman of the Committee, was only the bottle-holder to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who inspired it with energy and enthusiasm, and at whose suggestion it was appointed. He deserves all the credit, and I hope he will receive none of the blame, for what it has done. The words which it is proposed to alter maintain the old character of the Volunteer force, on which all the legislation with regard to them is founded, and they ought not to be altered even under the influence of the captivating arguments of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite.

I confess that I have listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition with amazement. On Wednesday last the right hon. Gentleman welcomed this proposal amid unanimous cheers from all parts of the House.

"Welcomed" is a strong word. I was directing my fire against another proposal, and I said of this one some words to the effect that it was comparatively acceptable. But I have since looked into the Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman's acceptance was so warm that I, at all events, mistook it for welcome. The right hon. Gentleman has since come upon a debate of a somewhat academic character which took place in 1895, and he now presents his own Financial Secretary, not as chairman of the Committee on this subject, but as bottle-holder to the hon. Member for Central Sheffield. That may be enough excuse for the right hon. Gentleman's right-about turn, but the Government, who are responsible for this Bill, which they believe to be of the greatest importance to Volunteers, and to be generally welcomed by them, will do their best to see it passed this session. All are agreed that the Volunteers exist to repel invasion. The only point is whether Her Majesty is bound to declare to the whole world by proclamation that she appre- hends invasion, at a time when diplomacy is at its last gasp. What I said the other day—and I am bound to repeat my argument—was that when a foreign ambassador accredited to this Court was in daily and hourly conference with our own Foreign Secretary, was not the time Her Majesty should be made to proclaim with her own mouth that she apprehends invasion. Of course it will not be done. Everybody knows that no Government would issue that proclamation, which is so different from other proclamations, precisely because it contains these words, which would be so inopportune. That is why we propose that the terms should be amended. If that be true—and I think it was generally said the other day—it follows that no step could be taken to put the Volunteers into a position to repel invasion until invasion had taken place. I say again, as I said on Wednesday last, that no War Office, after any amount of re-organisation, could turn the Volunteers into a, field Army, with transport and supplies, in the course of twenty-four or forty-eight hours. It could not be done in less than two or three weeks. If this change should be refused, then all the money spent on the Volunteers is wasted, and the Volunteers are being made fools of. We have heard it said that the military authorities will call out the Volunteers rashly. The military authorities will not call them out at all unless it is the policy of the Government. To call them out would cost for the first month £2,500,000 in pay and allowances alone, while each ensuing month would cost £1,570,000. If the cost of transport and provisions and equipment is added, the first month would cost £4,000,000. I have no fear that any Government will rashly authorise that expenditure. I believe that if this alteration is made other Governments will follow in the steps of all Governments who have presided over the destinies of this country, and will not incur that charge until it is absolutely necessary.

I agree to some extent that this Bill is a useful measure, but the importance of it has been exaggerated. I am sure if we were in the peculiar position of being on the verge of invasion it would make very little difference whether the Volunteers were called out in consequence of "imminent national danger "or" appre hended invasion." The nation would be perfectly well aware of the reason why they were called out. I do not, myself, think very much of the argument that the character of the Volunteer force would be changed if the Bill passed into law. As a matter of fact the force has changed considerably during the last few years. When it was first established the greater part of the force were in the position described by Captain Hunter in the speech which was quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition; but within the last few years a great number of the men who have joined the force really belong to the Militia. They have joined the Volunteer force because it is the easier force—because more amusement can be obtained out of it, and they are taken away from their work less. What is really wanted is not so much a measure of this kind—although I shall vote for it—as such a training of the whole Volunteer force that when a national emergency does arise those who volunteer for that force will be of immediate use. The first object of the War Office ought to be to furnish us with a Volunteer force that is thoroughly effective, so that when men volunteer for active service they may be of use at once. If some system of that kind is adopted—

*

Order, order! That does not seem to be relevant to the clause under discussion.

What I meant to imply was that in a case of national emergency the Government of the day would have at hand, voluntarily offering themselves for the Volunteer force, the class of men whom they would require to meet that particular emergency. I shall vote for this measure, because I think to some extent it may be useful, but I should not vote for it if I thought the intention of the Government was to mislead the people by making them suppose that this measure would to any large extent render the Volunteer force more effective than at present, or that by it something was done really to organise the military forces of the Empire.

*

I think it is important clearly to understand from the Government what is intended to be the practical effect of the change of words here suggested. I know quite well that no intention can bind the successors of, or even the present Government, but we ought to be told clearly what the practical effect will be of changing these well-known definite words for other words less definite. The Under Secretary for War gives us to understand that no change was intended, that the Volunteers would be called out under the new form as under the old form, only when the Government apprehended invasion, and that the Government did not wish to put the fact in a Proclamation for fear it should interfere with the course of diplomacy and precipitate that which they wished to avoid. If it were clearly understood that that was the intention of the Government it would make a great difference; and I hope the Under Secretary will be able to assure us on that point.

I have already made two speeches in which I endeavoured to convey that idea, and I doubt whether I should be more successful if I made a third.

*

I read the Second Reading speech of the hon. Gentleman very carefully, but I do not think he made it so clear as he has now done. If that is the case, and that intention is acted upon, it will make the clause practically innocuous and also inoperative. But the House had an apprehension that that was not the whole object of the Government. It is obvious that within the last few months the country has passed through circumstances which might fairly be called "a great emergency." I think after the battle of Colenso we were certainly in a position which might be so described, and the Government would have been perfectly within their rights — if the law had been as they are now proposing to make it—in calling out the Volunteers.

*

The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. That means, I suppose, that the Government would not have done it. I am glad of that, but they would have been at perfect liberty to have done so. The effect of this change will be that instead of depending on the definite words of the Act we shall depend upon the good will of the Government, which is somewhat changeable, and the Volunteers themselves will never know exactly what are the obligations they undertake. If the change is applied in the manner suggested, I do not think it will make much difference; but if at any time the Government were in a tight place and called on the Volunteers —it would be then, after the Volunteers and the employers of Volunteers had had experience of the new condition under which these men would be called out for service—that the force must suffer in popularity, and this change be found to be a very grave one.

*

As an old Scottish Volunteer, and still in close touch with the force, and with some of the most eminent and practical commanding officers, I wish to say a few words in support of this clause, the object of which is to render the volunteers more promptly available as an important portion of the great defensive forces of our country in any time of imminent national danger or great emergency, even if that emergency or danger does not amount to actual or apprehended invasion. I believe that recent events have proved the desirability of this measure. It is argued that the introduction of such a Bill is not opportune, and that if brought forward at all it should be in conjunction with some more important measure. But I think it is a most opportune, useful, and necessary measure, and one which will form a very valuable instalment of any complete scheme of reorganisation and reform, which I hope will be undertaken immediately after the present war, and with the light of the experience which that war has afforded us. Seeing that increased duties and responsibilities are to be placed on the Volunteers, it is natural that they and their friends should be anxious to know what increased encouragement and support the Government propose to give them. My opinion is that if the Government support the Volunteers, as we hope they will do, not only would the efficiency of the force be increased, but its numbers would be doubled, so that there might easily be a force of half a million ready to be promptly availed of in case of imminent national danger or great emergency, a large portion of whom would volunteer to serve in any part of the world, still leaving in this country for the legitimate purposes of home defence a very much larger number of Volunteers than are at present in existence. I give my cordial support to the clause now before the Committee.

I shall certainly support the omission of the clause. When the Under Secretary for War stated a few months ago the effect of the alteration of these words upon the course of any delicate diplomacy which might be in progress, I admit he struck a note which, if it had been a sound one, would have compelled me to vote against my hon. and gallant friend. The whole purport of the hon. Gentleman's remarks was that the effect of the alteration of these words would be to prevent something being regarded by a foreign Power as an act of war. I am quite unable to see that the difference in these words could possibly have that effect. If we were engaged in such delicate diplomacy I should be the last to turn that diplomacy into provocation; we have had quite enough of that. But what would be the actual effect? Under the present law, if the Volunteers were called out, a foreign Power would know it was because of an actual or apprehended invasion of some part of the United Kingdom. And if these words were deleted, and for them were substituted the words, "imminent national danger or great emergency," what difference could it possibly have upon the course of diplomatic negotiations with any foreign Power? Does the hon. Member mean to tell the Committee that trained diplomatists would be so ignorant of the state of affairs that it would make the slightest difference to them what the words were which formed the basis on which the Volunteers were called out, so long as the words indicated national danger? We who are not regarded as being at all advocates of militarism have always differentiated between a force which, as the law stands, is a purely homo defence force, a body of citizen soldiers, and the regular Army; and I confess that, much as I detest war, and militarism generally, anything in reason to make that voluntary arm more effective would have my support.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman's dogmatism is so common that it really has no market price now. The Under Secretary for War needs to be very cautious of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield, because he represents the jingo section of the Volunteers of this country. That section is a very small portion of that great force; there are very few who have such great ambitions. The majority are mere citizens, and do not want to be anything else; they have no desire to become soldiers in all but name, they simply want to belong to a force whose one call upon them is the defence of their native land. I say, deliberately, that if the Under Secretary of State for War wants really to encourage volunteering, instead of tampering with the force, he should make it more and more clear that the members belong to a home defence force and that alone. The hon. and gallant Gentleman shakes his head; he, at any rate, is candid. But I am speaking of the great mass of the rank and file, the poor men—the Volunteers with wives and families—who are quite content to serve their country, and believe they are serving their country, although not treading a foreign strand, by making themselves effective, so that should occasion arise they may be prepared to defend their native land against invasion. But you do not even say "great national emergency." What do you mean by "great emergency"? I can conceive a state of affairs in which you might have an emergency which was not an emergency from outside at all, and I say deliberately, I will be no party to giving to a Minister, when Parliament is not sitting, the great power here proposed, and the duty of interpreting these words, seeing that the result might be of such serious moment to the working classes of this country. There is no need for this Bill so far as the effectiveness of the Volunteers is concerned. We who vote against this clause are not voting in any way against making the Volunteer force effective; we are voting to maintain the original and true character of the force, and to prevent it being placed in the hands of any foolish or possibly unscrupulous Minister, who might use it for a purpose foreign to that for which it was formed.

May I correct a misapprehension under which the hon. Member has spoken? By the law of the land we cannot move Volunteers out of the country at all.

I did not say otherwise. I can assure the hon. Gentleman I had no such thought in my mind.

Then the hon. Member seemed to think that some great emergency of a social character might arise. We cannot use a Volunteer against the civil power.

I should like to congratulate my hon. friend the Under Secretary— Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members being found present.

*

I should very much like to say how much I congratulate the Government and my hon. friend the Under Secretary for War on the introduction of this Bill. It seems to me that Clause 1 is a clause which makes a valuable change which will be welcomed by the Volunteers. This is the opinion not only of Volunteer officers, but also of many men of business throughout the country who are not connected with Volunteers at all. They feel that these words are wanted in order to improve the scope of the Bill. Now, Sir, with regard to the new words, it seems to me that they are very much better than the old words, and may cover the old words, and as for supposing that they would be wrongly used by the Government, I think that any such remark or objection, when looked into carefully, entirely falls to the ground. It is not the War Office, but the Government of the day, and the Government of the day is the Cabinet which represents the majority of the House of Commons, and is it likely any Cabinet or Government that has behind it the House of Commons would be so foolish or rash as to do anything which in any way would be dangerous? What we find so generally in this kind of thing is that the Government, instead of being precipitate and rash, and instead of acting with great speed, the danger is that they generally act too slowly. With regard to almost all the military movements of whatever kind which have taken place for many years past, we have moved with very great care and very, great wisdom, and very often with too much hesitation. I do not believe that there is any danger in the words proposed. On the contrary, I believe there is very great safety in them. In my opinion they have been long wanted, and I believe that no business man, Volunteer or otherwise, would object to the insertion of these words. I have for many years past believed that in Volunteer circles it was the opinion that some such words should be inserted. It has been urged that the insertion of such words would be distasteful to the Volunteers, and that they would not increase their number. I do not believe that for a moment. I think this will meet the views of Volunteers in great measure, and they will see something hero is done which will make their force much more effective, and I will explain to the House why I think so in a few moments. The South African War must have added 50,000 at least new members to the force. In a regiment I know very well I know that the battalion has increased very much. I think that is a proof that the Volunteers, if they see danger to the country, will immediately rally to the country's cause, and come forward in greater numbers. I will give another instance of the effect on Volunteers. It was at one time said that fourteen days camping of Volunteers would create a great deal of enthusiasm.

*

Order, order! The hon. Member is travelling beyond the limits of this clause. He must confine himself strictly to this clause.

*

I accept your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I see the old words are "Actual or apprehended invasion." If the Government wait until an actual invasion begins before they call out the Volunteers, I say distinctly—knowing something of the Volunteers, and being a Volunteer officer—I think we should go simply to the shambles. I believe there would be confusion, and we should not know where we were or what we were doing. The foreign forces would be actually on our soil, probably in great numbers, and although it is very likely they would not get very much further because of the Line and Militia, we as a force should be no good at all. That is my opinion, and I will explain why I think so. We now find when we go into camp that it is only after a week's or a fortnight's drill that different battalions, as it were, begin to feel at home. After a few days or a fortnight we find ourselves far better than we were at the end of the first week. Wherever we are sent, at first we should be all at sea; we should not know the ground or the town. By degrees we should get accustomed to the surroundings, and it would be found then whether we were short of transport or not. In the camp in which I was this year for fourteen days, there were many things wanted. Perhaps the ammunition cart had got no horse, and—

*

Order, order! I must ask the hon. Member to resume his seat when I rise. The hon. Member is now discussing the general training of Volunteers, which cannot now be raised.

*

I am trying to show that at least a month or six weeks training would be required to ensure some amount of efficiency among the Volunteers. But it does seem to me that it is too much to expect good results if the Volunteers were called out forty-eight hours after the invasion has begun. They could not be an efficient force under those circumstances, and it seems to me that if the War Office and the Government and the country are to rely upon the Volunteers for the home defence force—looking at the great numbers and the great part they fill in the forces—it is absolutely necessary that they should be afforded every opportunity for making themselves efficient, and be put in a position so that they may become acquainted with the position and be furnished with all the requisites and transport equipment, so that if the enemy comes up they may be well prepared to give a good account of themselves. It seems to me that the changes it is proposed to make are in the right direction. They would enable the Government to take time by the forelock and get the Volunteers in that position in which they might have to make a stand eventually. What the Volunteers wish is to be sufficiently efficient to be called out at the proper time and be ready for an invasion if it should come. I hope this change will be made, and that the clause at it stands, without Amendment, will be passed. I trust that the measure will become law this session.

said he was afraid this clause, if passed, would have a very bad effect upon the Volunteers. He had listened to the remarks of several hon. Members, and he preferred the opinion of his hon. friend the Member for the Leigh Division in regard to the rank and file of Volunteers to that of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield, who was an officer in the Volunteer service. He doubted whether the opinion of the Volunteers was so much in favour of the measure as it had been represented to be. For a commanding officer to merely summon the Volunteers before him and ask them whether they liked this change or not was not the correct way to arrive at their real opinions. He thought it was far more likely that the Volunteers would not be in favour of a change like this. A great many Volunteers came from small employers, and he could understand such employers not liking their clerks to be liable to be called out except in case of apprehended invasion. It seemed to him that this clause was placing a very great power in the hands of the particular Minister at any particular time. There was no doubt that the phrase "imminent national danger or great emergency" allowed a great deal of latitude, and it might be interpreted very differently by different Ministers at different times. On the other hand, the terms on which the Volunteers wore elected at the present time were not at all ambiguous, for they all knew that they were only going to be called upon for active service in case their country was invaded. When the ordinary Volunteer came to read the terms of this clause which it was proposed to substitute, an ambiguity would be found about it which was not at all desirable, and which he thought would prevent a great many men enlisting in the service. Perhaps at the present moment this provision would not deter any men from joining, but when the war was over, and the people came to pay the bills which they would be called upon to pay, he thought it would discourage people from joining the Volunteers. He had not had the practical experience of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield, although he had once had the privilege of being a full private, and he might say that his own experience did not coincide with the experience of the hon. and gallant Member opposite who was a colonel in the Volunteers. He thought this provision was a very undesirable one, and unless the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill could give them a more practical and satisfactory explanation why this change was wanted he should certainly vote against the clause.

*

believed that this Bill would increase the martial spirit amongst their Volunteers, Personally, when the Bill for the war came to be paid he had no fear of the result, and in case of an apprehended invasion or imminent national danger he believed that a large number of their Volunteers would be found ready to join not only in the defence of their country, but to go anywhere in the interests of their country. What had they found in the case of the invasion of British territory in South Africa? There a horde of undrilled peasants, fifty of whom could not march in line together, but who could shoot straight, had been able to oppose successfully the finest forces in the world. He thought this South African war had shown very forcibly the necessity of having a Volunteer force which would be ready to go anywhere and do anything at the call of duty. He heartily supported this measure, and he sincerely hoped that there would be appointed some person who would have charge of the Volunteer forces, for he should not like to hear of another mistake being made like the unfortunate instance of which the House was already aware.

The speech just delivered by the hon. Member does not help the Government very much, because practically what he says is wanted is a condition of things that will enable the Volunteers to be called out, and in his own words, "to go anywhere and do anything."

*

I did not say I wanted such a state of things to arise. What I said was that if such a condition of things arose the Volunteers would be found ready and willing to go anywhere and do anything.

But if these men are so anxious to defend their country, they only need to go down to the recruiting sergeant, and then they can share the honour and distinction of going to South Africa by enlisting like the ordinary soldier, who at this moment is so pluckily doing his work. I have been out just now to the Vote Office, and what do I find? I find that we have five Bills, all of which are significant of the spirit of militarism that is being introduced into this country at this particular moment. We have a Bill for the Volunteers, one for the Reserve Forces, one on the Military Manœuvres, the Military Lands Bill, and the Naval Reserve Bill, and every one of these Bills seeks to extend the power which the Government now has for giving more men to the Reserve, and calling them out at the discretion of the Admiralty. These measures give the Government more latitude and discretion in mobilising the Naval Reserves than they have hitherto had. With regard to the Military Lands Bill, we see a military spirit pervading that measure, and military lands are to be placed at the discretion of the War Office, and it is proposed to give commanding officers Dower to close roads and to do other things. Then we have the Reserve Forces Bill, which gives the War Office similar powers in relation to the Reserve forces. I think the whole of these Bills are symptomatic of an attempt to rush through the House of Commons in the emergency of the war with South Africa a series of measures to convert the Volunteer force into the Militia force or some-thing like a conscript force under conscript conditions. I object to this Volunteers Bill, notwithstanding the fact that the Under Secretary for War has deleted Sub-section (b) of Clause 2, and I do so on the ground that if you allow the War Office to determine without confirmation of this House what an imminent national danger or a great emergency is, we shall probably see a further development of what we have quite recently witnessed—namely, the Volunteers being moved forward to the Militia stage, the Militia moved to the Army Reserve stage, the Army Reserves moved forward to the Regular Army, and the Indian Army again brought into Europe, and the Regular Army depleted at home to go abroad. The Volunteers, under the phrase "imminent national danger or great emergency," could be called upon to strengthen the depleted garrisons of the Regular Army, and they could be called out for purposes which under the present law would not be legal. I protest against that. I object by a side wind or by any other patriotic subterfuge to convert what is a voluntary force into what is a more or less compulsory force at the discretion of the War Office. If this Bill is passed with this phrase, "imminent national danger or great emergency," you will change the character of the Volunteer army, which is at present well understood by the Volunteers, who joined under well-known conditions, and who do not object to be summoned when there is actual or apprehended invasion. You will damage the Volunteers as part of our national defence, and will convert that force into a more or less compulsory force, probably for service abroad. What is a "great emergency"? The Emperor of Germany, a few years ago, made his celebrated "mailed fist" speech. This country seemed to have lost its head over it. They took a great deal too much notice of the German Emperor, and more notice of him on that occasion than I would take of his utterances on any occasion. They called out the Flying Squadron, which was not out as soon as it ought to have been, and not quite as efficient as it ought to have been, considering the money spent on the Navy. It was called out in answer to the "mailed fist" speech of the Emperor. Under the Volunteer Act you could not have construed that speech as an imminent national danger or great emergency. But if this Bill is passed and the German Emperor makes another "mailed fist" speech, you will have the Flying Squadron called out again, supplemented by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield calling the Queen's Westminsters together and saying, "Here is the German Emperor making another ' mailed fiat' speech. Let us under the new Act appeal to the War Office to interpret it as an imminent national danger or great emergency, and then the Act may be put into operation." That is to happen whenever a tinpot European monarch makes a speech which cannot possibly harm England, and who has not a Navy equal to a tenth of our Navy. The whale and the elephant rarely come into collision. Under this Bill gentlemen like the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield will be petitioning the War Office to call out the Volunteers. I do not think this Bill is wanted. What is more, you will let the Volunteers think, by the passing of this Bill, that they are to be subject to the discretion of the War Office. I would not trust much to the discretion of the War Office. They have bungled in South Africa; they make a mess of nearly everything they take in hand, and if they have this Bill they will have power to do with the Volunteers what they did with the whole military arrangements in South Africa. I am not prepared to give a War Office such as ours the discretionary power of calling out the Volunteers when in its opinion a great emergency has arisen. If the War Office had done their duty, the necessity of discussing this Bill would not have arisen at all. If the Army had been in a state of efficiency, as it ought to have been considering the amount of money voted for it, we should not be called upon to discuss this Bill at all. Then we are asked to spoil the Volunteer force—for that is what it means—because the War Office have not acted efficiently. Immediately the Volunteers recognise you are tampering with free voluntary enlistment, and that they are to be put under the discretionary powers of Lord Lansdowne, then the Volunteer army will disappear like butter in the sun. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite says that the Volunteers like it. Where is the proof? What Volunteer corps has been brought together and had the terms of this Bill submitted to them? Has a plebiscite been taken of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's own regiment? I have ten times as many of the Queen's Westminsters living in my constituency as the hon. Member has.

I will not take the trouble to meet the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The Queen's Westminster are efficient Volunteers, and they want to remain Volunteers. They do not want to listen to a lot of prancing patriots, whose idea of the Volunteer force is that every man in England who is not a soldier or a sailor should be a marine. I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that in his zeal to improve the Volunteers as a defensive force he is going the wrong way about it, and that if the Volunteers are placed under the discretion of the War Office, men will refuse to join, and the Volunteers will suffer in number, in esprit de corps, and in efficiency, and they will refuse to be converted from a practically voluntary force into a more or less conscriptive force. It is because this Bill is one of a series of militarizing enactments, which has for its object a conscript Militia, and the making of a free Volunteer Army into a more or less conscriptive force, and because the Volunteers will be sadly damaged in efficiency and numbers, that I protest against it. I come to one of my last points. The political atmosphere just now is charged with everything of a military character. We see hon. and gallant Gentlemen like the Member for Central Sheffield and the members of town councils asking, in a fever of panic, that the police should be armed. They want rifle ranges here, there, and everywhere, and they want the Volunteers converted into a conscriptive force. The militarization of English public life is going on to an extent that would be absolutely unnecessary if the War Office did its work properly, and if the Army and Navy were looked after to the extent they should be. It is because this Bill is one more link in the chain of jingoising England that I protest against it. If the Volunteers in my own constituency are in favour of this Bill, I have received no evidence of it. I do not believe that there is one Volunteer in a thousand who knows of the existence of this measure, or who has considered its terms with his comrades. It is because I believe the Bill is intended to place the Volunteers under the discretion of the War Office, and to enable them to be called up at any time for service both at home and abroad, that I am opposed to it. I oppose it also because I have a greater regard for the Volunteer force than the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield, who has the most unfortunate knack of doing the right thing in the wrong way, and of going about a good thing in a way which ultimately defeats his purpose. I intend challenging a division upon this Bill, which I believe to be unnecessary.

There is one point which does not seem to have been cleared up in the discussion. It is most difficult to get the critics and the advocates of this particular clause together. My hon. friend who has just spoken has referred to the increased liability of service which the Bill undoubtedly imposes on the Volunteer force. The reply made to that is that the Volunteers are patriotic, that the present emergency has shown there is need for their services and that therefore this Bill is justified. It seems to me that that does not meet the point at all. If it is said that the present emergency has shown that the Volunteers have come forward, that is in itself a condemnation of this measure, because it is perfectly clear that there is now an ample outlet for the patriotic spirit of the Volunteers. My contention is that the present law is sufficient. The Under Secretary for War has referred to the undesirability of issuing a proclamation while negotiations are going on, but does anybody mean to contend that no steps would be taken for the defence of this country or the assertion of its power until we found it necessary to call out the Volunteers? Under the present law, whenever an order is in force for the embodiment of the Militia the Government can accept the services of the Volunteers. At the present time such an order is in force, and the argument that the issue of a proclamation would render the negotiations difficult seems to have no weight whatever. For instance, a proclamation is necessary to call out the Army Reserve, and another to call out the Militia, and in such a case Parliament must meet, if it is not sitting, ten days after the proclamation is issued, and it cannot be supposed that the situation would be rendered more intense by calling out the Volunteers. That is an argument that will not hold water. The second argument of the Under Secretary is that it might be necessary- that certain particular garrisons should be manned on certain particular occasions, but surely the present situation has shown there would not be the slightest difficulty in appealing, to the patriotic spirit of the Volunteers in order to obtain a sufficient number. I should like to ask the Under Secretary for War if he would state explicitly how far the present powers fall short of the powers proposed in this Bill. This Bill really means a good deal, or it means nothing at all. If it means nothing at all except a mere change of words, then I think it is a great pity that the Government should have put us to the inconvenience of discussing it at this period of the session. If it means a great deal, the Committee have a right to know all it does mean.

AYES.

Anson, Sir William ReynellGiles, Charles TyrrellPhillpotts, Captain Arthur
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. JohnGorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John EldonPierpoint, Robert
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds)Goschen, George J. (Sussex)Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Banbury, Frederic GeorgeGourley, Sir Edward TemperleyPlatt-Higgins, Frederick
Barnes, Frederick GorellGreene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Hor. Curzon
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S- (Hunts)Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Hartley, George C. T.Hardy, LaurencePurvis, Robert
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)Haslett, Sir James HornerPym, C. Guy
Beckett, Ernest WilliamHenderson, AlexanderRankin, Sir James
Bethell, CommanderHolland, William HenryRasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bill, CharlesHornby, Sir William HenryRentoul, James Alexander
Blundell, Colonel HenryHowell, William TudorRidley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. JohnJohnstone, Heywood (Sussex)Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.Kimber, HenryRobertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cavendish, V. C. W(Derbyshire)Lafone, AlfredRussell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cayzer, Sir Charles WilliamLawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn.)Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos Myles
Chamberlain, J. Austen, Wore'rLawson, John Grant (Yorks.)Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryLeigh-Bennett, Henry CurrieSkewes-Cox, Thomas
Charrington, SpencerLockwood, Lt.-Colonel A. R.Smith, Hon. W. F.D.(Strand)
Coghill, Douglas HarryLoder, Gerald Walter ErskineStewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Collings, Rt. Hon. JesseLonsdale, John BrownleeStone, Sir Benjamin
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. AtholeLowles, JohnStrachey, Edward
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)Loyd, Archie KirkmanThornton, Percy M.
Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd)Lucas-Shadwell, WilliamTomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Macdona, John GummingTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.Maclure, Sir John WilliamTritton, Charles Ernest
Cox, Irwin Edward BainbridgeM'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffield)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W)Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton)
Cubitt, Hon. HenryMendl, Sigismund FerdinandWelby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)
Curzon, ViscountMiddlemore, J. ThrogmortonWilliams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Dalrymple, Sir CharlesMonckton, Edward PhilipWillonghby de Eresby, Lord
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-Monk, Charles JamesWilson, John (Falkirk)
Donkin, Richard SimMoon, Edward Robert PacyWilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath)
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William H.Morrison, James, A. (Wilts. S.)Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn EdwardMorton, A. H. A. (Deptford)Wylie, Alexander
Finch, George H.Muntz, Philip A.Wyndham, George
Finlay, Sir Robert BannatyneMurray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Young, Commander (Berks, E.)Firbank, Joseph ThomasMurray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Fisher, William HayesMyers, William' Henry

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Flannery. Sir FortescueNicol, Donald NinianSir William Walrond and
Flower, ErnestO'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensMr. Anstruther.
Garfit, WilliamPease, Herbt. Pike (Darlingt'n)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-Philipps, John Wynford
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)Hazell, WalterPickersgill, Edward Hare
Billson, AlfredHealy, Maurice (Cork)Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas DollingHealy, Timothy M. (N. Louth)Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Brunner, Sir John TomlinsonHorniman, Frederick JohnReid. Sir Robert Threshie
Burns, JohnHutton, Alfred E. (Morley)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Buxton, Sydney CharlesJameson, Major J. EustaceScott, Charles P. (Leigh)
Caldwell, JamesJoicey, Sir JamesShaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Cawley, FrederickLawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)Steadman, William Charles
Charming, Francis AllstonLewis, John HerbertSullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(CardiganMacaleese, DanielSullivan. T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Donelan, Captain A.MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C)Tanner, Charles Kearns
Doogan, P. C.MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftTennant, Harold John
Duckworth, JamesM'Ghee, RichardUre, Alexander
Evans, Sir Francis H.(South'p'n)M'Leod, JohnWhittaker, Thomas Palmer
Fenwick, CharlesMaddison, Fred.Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. JohnMolloy, Bernard CharlesYoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel FordMorgan, J. L. (Cannarthen)
Gurdon, Sir William BramptonNussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Hammond, John (Carlow)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Captain Sinclair and
Hayden, John PatrickO'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)Mr. Humphreys-Owen.

Question put.

The House divided: — Ayes, 127; Noes, 62. (Division List No. 231.)

Clause 2:—

said that there was nothing definite in the clause. What was urged with regard to this particular provision was that before "actual or apprehended invasion" was the condition of things the Government might call upon Volunteer artillery to garrison certain forts or outlying places, but it was not definitely stated. Therefore he wished, in order to limit the clause, to insert after the word "Volunteer" the words "garrison artillery."

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 10, after ' Volunteer,' to insert ' garrison artillery.'"—(Captain Sinclair.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'garrison artillery' be there inserted."

said before the Under Secretary replied he would like to know by what method these men were to be paid for their services. He put the question for the reason that he did not want a Volunteer to be coerced, or, to use a more expressive phrase, to be bluffed by his colonel into consenting to enlistment—

*

Order, order! The only question now before the Committee is whether this clause shall be limited to garrison artillery or not.

I am afraid that the hon. and gallant Member for Forfar has not quite correctly apprehended what I said the other day, although what he has just said does very nearly cover the whole purpose we contemplate. I think the language I used was that we only contemplated putting garrisons into forts in any estuary leading up to a harbour. Those garrisons, or 99 per cent. of them, are composed of garrison artillery, but there are some other Volunteers required— three or four bicyclists, for instance—to carry on communications between the fort and the rear. Under the scheme of defence as it at present exists, we require about 7,500 men in order to give requisite garrisons to the forts which have been constructed in the Mersey, at Bristol, in the Tyne and the Clyde. These garrisons are almost all composed of garrison artillery, but there must necessarily be some submarine miners and engineers. These garrisons would only go to their posts for drill on frequent occasions, but these things cannot be left to mere chance. The very worst preparation for war is to issue an appeal at the last moment. It is far better that a force of 7,500 men out of a force of 250,000 who are prepared to qualify for these posts should be allowed to register their names in times of peace. I cannot go back from that view. There is no danger of any sort or kind, and the fears with which hon. Members are haunted are so illusory that I find it hard to believe their arguments are serious. It appears to be a deliberate attempt to play at the game, that we are living in the eighteenth century instead of in the dawn of the twentieth. Those forts have been built and armed, and these men ask to be allowed to form part of the garrisons, and we ask that they shall be allowed to do so. The proposition is so reasonable that I do not think I am justified in further occupying the time of the House by labouring the point.

When this matter was before the House on the Second Reading, it was pointed out, and I thought there was a great deal in the proposition made, that instead of extending this to the whole 250,000 men it should be confined to the 7,500 you require. Supposing you are going to man the forts on the Tyne, surely you are not going to Cornwall to get men?

The object of the clause is to make it definite instead of allowing it to remain indefinite. We should only take the men from the immediate districts.

Then I have no objection to it myself. I think that is a reasonable suggestion. These men would be in a very much better position to discharge their duties if they knew them some time in advance; but if this is to make it definite I cannot conceive anything more indefinite than the words in the Bill.

The Amendment of the hon. Member does meet it to some extent, but I should have thought some method might be adopted by which the liability should not be put upon the whole force, but on that smaller part consisting of artillery and submarine miners and engineers who are concerned in the matter. I should have thought it better to define it than have it in this indefinite form.

Then, I suppose, when a new fort was built we should have to have a fresh Bill.

did not consider the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman was at all unreasonable, and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary would see his way to adopt it. He did not think that this liability should extend to the whole of the Volunteers. This Bill had created a great deal of alarm on account of the extreme ambiguity of its language. He merely mentioned the fact in the hope that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary would bring forward an Amendment limiting the total number of those who should be asked to offer themselves.

The difference between us is not wide, and it appears the difficulty of the situation is to define the intentions of the Government without introducing definitions which might be inconvenient. If I were expected to put all the places in the Bill, I should have to say where all the forts are. If I were asked to put down the number of garrisons, I could say exactly how many met we should require; but a new improvement in the next six months might so alter the conditions that we should have to come here again for more. There is really no danger of any Government being so insane as to try and place all the Volunteers under an obligation of this character. All we ask is that, when money has been spent on the forts, and when there are corps who are to man these forts in time of war in the neighbourhood of these various forts, we should be allowed to select them in time of peace. Unless the Leader of the Opposition thinks that some benefit could be achieved by putting a limit on the number, that is the only way the object could be achieved. But as all these fears are illusory, there is no reason for doing so. I think the House and the country in this matter might well trust this and successive Governments.

It is not a question of trust or distrust of the Government. It is a question of the disturbing effect this wide suggestion has on the Volunteer force generally. The words are "to accept the offer of any member of a Volunteer corps to subject himself." I do not know whether it would not be better to say, accept the offer of a certain number of the Volunteer forces, and to then accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Forfarshire. We are both aiming at the same thing.

It means from certain corps; but I should be very sorry if a Bill in Parliament named the whole of those corps. Nobody has suggested that, and I was only trying to meet the hon. Gentleman by indicating a manner in which the question might be supervised and so safeguarded.

suggested that as all were agreed upon the principle, instead of taking the discussion on the words now before the House, they should substitute the words "to be called out for coast defence and garrison duty."

asked whether the hon. Gentleman could not accept an Amendment to the effect that those called up "shall not exceed 10,000 in all."

I could not accept that Amendment. If any hon. Gentleman desires to limit the clause I will try and meet him, but any attempt to try and extract the name of a corps or fort I cannot consent to.

did not think there was any Bill in which the intentions of the Government were disclosed so little as in this clause. As there was a perfect agreement as to the principle of the clause, he suggested that the obligation lay upon the hon. Gentleman to add words that should carry out what the House intended. If the clause could be restricted in the manner suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition there would be no objection to the clause. But he was not prepared to support the doctrine of a sort of Ministerial infallibility.

agreed with the Amendment. The Under-Secretary had intimated that if the clause was limited in this way it was not business; but garrison artillery were quite different to other branches of Volunteers. He had been ten years in the Regulars and twelve in the Volunteer forces, and if a vote of the Volunteers was taken upon this proposal, which was distinctly contrary to the rules in force, it would be seen that they did not approve of the action of the Government. The artilleryman took a much longer time to train than the infantryman, and if there was anything unbusinesslike in this business, it was the proceedings of the Government. Had the Government reflected for a moment what this proposal meant to the Volunteer forces? What did the Government propose to give in return? Did they propose to exempt them from certain taxes, or sitting on juries, or some other unpleasant duty of a citizen?—

*

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is travelling a very long way from the Amendment.

said that with regard to the artillery, the men should know what obligations they took upon themselves when they joined; but in any case the Government had no right to go to the whole Volunteer force and say it was necessary for them, if they came forward, to come within the operation of this clause, for the reason that, like soldiers, the Volunteers did not care to see one man going and another left behind because of his home or business ties.

*

was of opinion that the Amendment for the provision of the Volunteers who were to garrison certain forts was a good one, but the men who should undertake that duty should be garrison artillery, and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary would see his way to accept the Amendment to that effect proposed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, which he (Colonel Sandys) intended to support.

said the majority would be garrison artillery. He did not trust his own judgment in this matter, and though the majority would be garrison artillery, still there necessarily would have to be others. It might be necessary, for instance, to have fifteen men on Brighton pier for the purposes of communications, and it was in matters of that kind that the Government ought not to be called upon to specify their requirements. They ought not to specify the particular composition of the garrisons. The only limitation could be a limitation of numbers; if that was pressed, he saw no means of resisting it.

expressed a fear that he had not been clearly apprehended. He objected to a limited number, as he did not see that it would be of any service, because the only result would be that another Bill might have to be introduced in a very short time. What he desired to see was the clause restricted to the particular class of Volunteers who would be invited to undertake these duties. If the words "garrison artillery, submarine miners, and others necessary for coast defence," were incorporated, they would very nearly meet the objections raised.

desired to supplement the words of the right hon. Gentleman. He moved after the words "garrison artillery" in the proposed Amendment to add the words "submarine miners, engineers, and other forces for coast defence." That would include telegraphists, cyclists, and other people whom the Government desired to have; he thought such an Amendment as that would emphasise what was intended to be carried out.

*

said he wished to keep the Volunteer force as it was, and was glad that the Under Secretary had withdrawn the registration for service in the field and abroad. He thought the Amendment would cripple our power at a time when we most wanted the use of force. He should like to see steps taken to prevent regimental pressure from being brought to bear on the Volunteers—even with regard to service at home.

said he thoroughly agreed with the Amendment. The hon. Member opposite proposed this limit in order that those who volunteered might not appear in a different light from their comrades.

*

hoped that his hon. friend the Under Secretary of State for War would adhere to the exact terms he had proposed in connection with this clause. He did not think it could do any harm to give the whole of the Volunteers the option of being called out for service at any time.

said there was an agreement in principle on both sides, and they were only now discussing how they could give effect to the general consensus of the House. He had handed in an Amendment, and he hoped that it might not be displaying undue partiality to say he thought it was better than that of his hon. friend the Member for Forfarshire. It was to add to sub-section (a), after the words, "military service," the words, "for coast defence duty." He hoped that the Under Secretary for War would adhere to the understanding that the whole body of Volunteers would not be called out for military duty at any time, but only those men intended to garrison forts.

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment. He could bring it up again on the Amendment of his hon. friend after the Under Secretary had had time to consider the proposal.

said he hoped the Under Secretary would undertake to satisfy the scruples of hon. Members on that side of the House by introducing either now or later words which would limit the clause.

hoped that the Committee would be induced to advance a little further in the direction he had indicated in his Amendment. The Committee appeared to be on the eve of arriving at an agreement. He would undertake to amend his subsequent Amendment before Report by specifying the places more clearly—not by enumeration, but by some description, or whatever might be possible.

Mr. Buchanan's Amendment to the Amendment was, by leave, withdrawn, and the Amendment was, by leave, withdrawn.

moved to amend Clause 2 so that it should read as follows—

"It shall be lawful for Her Majesty to accept the offer of any member of a Volunteer corps to subject himself to the liability to be called out for actual military service at any time at such places in Great Britain as may be specified in his agreement."
He undertook before Report to bring up words which would specify the nature of those places more clearly than was now apparent from the words, and to make clear what had been their intention all along.

Amendment agreed to.

said his hon. friend had altered his position so much since the Second Reading that the whole character of the Bill was altered. He had given notice of an Amendment to carry out the view that they should take advantage of the services of Volunteers who were willing to take upon themselves active military service generally and for all purposes. As the hon. Gentleman had accepted the limitation imposed on him by the other side of the House, he would not press his Amendment.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 10, to leave out from second ' to' to end of line 14, and insert ' the liability to be called out for actual military service at any time at such places in Great Britain as may be specified in his agreement.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)

Amendment agreed to.

said it was necessary to amend Clause 2 in order to ensure that officers should obtain the pensions and allowances which were provided for in the Volunteer Act of 1863.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, lines 17 and 18, to leave out ' and eighteen,' and insert ' to twenty.' "

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendment made.

moved a proviso to the effect that regulations made under this section should not come into effect until they had lain four weeks upon the Table. The alterations of the law which would be effected by the Bill were of such a substantial character that the regulations should not become legally binding unless they were laid on the Table of the House and submitted to the judgment of Parliament.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 19, at the end, to add the word, 'Provided always that regulations made under this section shall not come into effect until they have lain four weeks upon the Table of each House of Parliament whilst that House is sitting.'"—(Mr. Buchanan.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

said the hon. Member was labouring under a misapprehension. Nothing was being proposed which was beyond present powers.

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Hayden, John PatrickNussey, Thomas Williams
Allison, Robert AndrewHayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)Healy, Maurice (Cork)Philipps, John Wynford
Billson, AlfredHealy, Timothy M. (N. Louth)Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Bolton, Thomas DollingHedderwick, Thomas C. H.Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Burns, JohnHorniman, Frederick JohnSamuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Buxton, Sydney CharlesHumphreys-Owen, Arthur C.Scott, Charles P. (Leigh)
Caldwell, JamesHutton, Alfred E. (Morley)Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Campbell-Bannennan, Sir H.Joicey, Sir JamesSinclair, Capt. John(Forfarsh.)
Carvill, P. Geo. HamiltonJones, William(Carnarvonsh.)Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Cawley, FrederickLawson Sir W. (Cumberland)Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Channing, Francis AllstonLewis, John HerbertSteadman, William Charles
Clark, Dr. G. B.Lough, ThomasSullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Crilly, DanielMacaleese, DanielSullivan, T.D. (Donegal, W.)
Doogan, P. C.MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen's CTanner, Charles Kearns
Evans, Sir Francis H (South'ton)MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftUre, Alexander
Fenwick, CharlesM'Ghee, RichardWilson, John (Govan)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.M'Leod, JohnYoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel FordMaddison, Fred

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Gurdon, Sir William BramptonMolloy, Bernard CharlesMr. Buchanan and
Hammond, John (Carlow)Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Sir John Brunner.

NOES.

Anson, Sir William ReynellCavendish, V. C.W. (Derbys.)Curzon, Viscount
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. JohnCayzer, Sir Charles WilliamDalrymple, Sir Charles
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness)Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds)Chamberlain, J Austen (Wore'r)Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Banbury, Frederick GeorgeChaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryDyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart
Barry, Rt. Hn A H Smith-(Hunts)Charrington, SpencerFellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M H (Bristol)Coghill, Douglas HarryFinch, George H.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.Cohen, Benjamin LouisFinlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Beckett, Ernest WilliamCollings, Rt. Hon. JesseFisher, William Hayes
Bemrose, Sir Henry HoweColston, Chas. Edw. H. AtholeFitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Bethell, CommanderCook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.
Bill, CharlesCooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd)Fletcher, Sir Henry
Blundell, Colonel HenryCorbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Flower, Ernest
Brassey, AlbertCornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.Fry, Lewis
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. JohnCross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton)Garfit, William
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.Cubitt, Hon. HenryGedge, Sydney

said power was given to issue regulations which would have the effect of law.

said the sub-section simply enabled the Secretary of State to adapt Part 2 of the Volunteer Act of 1863 to the new conditions. That was not a matter which would be laid before the House. With all respect, the hon. Member was not Parliamentary draftsman to the War Office.

said it was a. reasonable thing to suggest that if the Secretary for War was to have the power of varying the regulations applicable to the Volunteer force, the House should have some opportunity of expressing an opinion on them.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 60; Noes, 143. (Division List No. 232.)

Giles, Charles TyrrellManners, Lord Edward W. J.Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John EldonMendl, Sigismund FerdinandSeely, Charles Hilton
Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's)Middlemore, J. ThrogmortonShaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Goschen, George J. (Sussex)Monckton, Edward PhilipSimeon, Sir Barrington
Gourley, Sir Edward TemperleyMoon, Edward Robert PacySkewes-Cox, Thomas
Greville, Hon. RonaldMore, R. Jasper (Shropshire)Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord GeorgeMorgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.)Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.Morrison, James A. (Wilts., S.)Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)
Hardy, LaurenceMorton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford)Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Henderson, AlexanderMuntz, Philip A.Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hickman, Sir AlfredMurray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hornby, Sir William HenryMurray, Charles J. (Coventry)Talbot. Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxford U.)
Howell, William TudorMurray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)Tollemache, Henry James
Jackson, Rt. Hn. W. LawiesMyers, William HenryTomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)Nicol, Donald NinianTritton, Charles Ernest
Keswick, WilliamPease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Lafone, AlfredPhillpotts Captain ArthurWelby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton)
Lawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn)Pilkington, R. (Lanes, Newton)Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)Platt-Higgins, FrederickWhitmore, Charles Algernon
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)Plunkett, Rt Hn Horace CurzonWilliams, Joseph Powell-(Birm)
Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)Powell, Sir Francis SharpWilloughby de Eresby, Lord
Leigh-Bennett, Henry CurriePurvis, RobertWilson, John (Falkirk)
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swnsea)Pym, C. GuyWilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.Rankin, Sir JamesWodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Loder, Gerald Walter ErskineRasch, Major Frederic CarneWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Lonsdale, John BrownleeRentoul, James AlexanderWylie, Alexander
Lowles, JohnRichardson, Sir T. (Hartle'pl)Wyndham, George
Macartney, W. G. EllisonRidley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew WYoung, Commander (Berks, E.)
Macdona, John GummingRitchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson
MacIver, David (Liverpool)Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Maclure, Sir John WilliamRussell, T. W. (Tyrone)Sir William Walrond and
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)Samuel, Harry S. (Limehonse)Mr. Anstruther

Question proposed, "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

If anything could justify the opposition we have offered to this Bill as a whole, it is the present condition of this clause. As a matter of fact, as originally introduced, the clause gave the Government power to accept the services of all Volunteers who agreed to serve in any part of the world. That meant imposing an additional liability of a very serious character on the whole of the Volunteer service. The result of the criticism to which the Bill has been subjected is that the character of the Bill has been completely changed. There is now no question of foreign service, and the application of the Bill, instead of being general with the whole Volunteer service, is to be limited. It is not too much to say that the case for the Bill has entirely broken down, and the opposition to the measure has served a most useful purpose and justified itself by the result. I regret that the Government, seeing that the limits of the Bill are so small, has not consented to acquiesce in the very general desire that any increase in the liabilities cast on the Volunteers should be deferred until the matter could be considered more dispassionately and under normal conditions.

I wish to emphasise the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Ince with regard to the method in which Volunteers offer their services. I would submit to the Under Secretary for War that in the regulations putting this Bill into operation the same conditions should apply as in the case of transfers from one regiment to another in the Regular Army. The hon. Gentleman knows that when Volunteers are asked for from, say, the 3rd Buffs, to enlist into, say, the East Surrey Regiment for the purpose of going, say, to India, what happens is that the colonel neither of the 3rd Buffs nor of the East Surrey, but of some other regiment, sits upon a day specified to receive the enlistments from the one regiment to the other. By that means you get impartiality, and the men volunteer of their own volition and without any pressure from their own colonel. What is good enough for the regular army ought to be good enough for the Volunteer regiments, and if the method adopted in the regular army is resorted to, we should not find Volunteers subjected to the invidious distinction to which many have been in connection with the South African war. I appeal to the hon. Gentleman that in the regulations which are issued he will follow the method laid down in the regular army.

Question put and agreed to.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

On the question that the Bill, as amended, be reported,

asked that the point he had just raised might be replied to by the Undersecretary of State for War, as it was a matter of vital importance to the successful working of the Bill.

I think I have given the hon. Member a general assurance not only that there will be no pressure, but that no need for pressure can possibly arise. I will, however, consider whether any specified course can be taken, but I cannot pledge myself to apply to the one force a method which may not be applicable to that force, while it may be to the other.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Reserve Forces Bill Lords

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

had on the Paper an Amendment to insert the following proviso—

"Provided always, that men in the second division liable to be called out under this section shall receive not less Army reserve pay than that received by men of the first division."

The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire is out of order, because it would impose a fresh charge upon the taxpayer.

Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

said that it would be somewhat hard if the men upon whom these new obligations were to be placed did not enjoy the same position and pay as those who constituted the first division and the Army Reserve. He, therefore, asked the Under Secretary of State to give an assurance that these men should receive the same remuneration as those upon whom the obligations at present rested.

I can give the assurance asked for. I can even say that in the Supplementary Estimates, which I hope to introduce on Friday, a small sum will be allocated to meet the limited number of cases which are likely to accrue this year.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2:—

I must move the Amendment on the Paper, although the necessity of it may seem a little in conflict with what I have just said. But there is a necessity, because in the Act to be amended the pay is laid down, and therefore, as we are amending the Act, it is necessary to put in these words in order to secure the proper pay.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 7, after 'and,' to add '(d) if under the foregoing provisions the rank of any such man in the Militia is raised or reduced above or below that which he held before he entered on permanent service his pay shall be correspondingly raised or reduced.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)

Amendment agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Bill reported, with the Amendment; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Naval Reserve Bill

[SECOND READING.]

Order for Second Reading read.

who, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, was very indistinctly heard, was understood to explain that the object of the Bill was to attract to the new division of the Naval Reserve men of twelve years service who hitherto had not been induced to join the Royal Naval Reserve. The Admiralty attached great value to this additional reserve, as it was hoped to obtain men of higher position, who would be able to fill the posts of chief petty officers and petty officers in the Royal Naval Reserve, and so release a number of Regular officers at present occupied with those duties. These men would get sixpence per day as a retainer. It was also proposed to reorganise the present Seamen Pensioner Reserve. This was a simple Bill, but it was believed it would provide a large additional, force.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Goschen.)

There are one or two points which occur to me. I gather that this new Reserve will not be amalgamated with the Royal Naval Reserve.

There is one other question I wish to ask. Is there any limit of ago or limit of service proposed? The words are "who have served." Is any standard of service required?

said there would be none over fifty years of age. There were many officers filling the position of chief petty officers who would be set free for active service, and it was hoped that greater efficiency of the Reserve would be secured.

But is there any limit to the time which may have elapsed since their service in the Navy? Obviously a man who served when a boy would at the age of fifty-five have very little trace of the Navy left in him.

I trust the House will notice the significant language in the Memorandum to this Bill, and also the statement of the First Lord himself. I was greatly surprised to hear that experience has shown that few men who have served in the Navy join the present Naval Reserve, which now consists mainly of seamen of the mercantile marine and fishermen. The First Lord seems to be under the impression that he can get over this condition of things by offering to men who do not now join 6d. per day to join the Naval Reserve. Such a scheme will not overcome the prejudice of time-expired men against joining the Reserve. The First Lord in some respects is a man of sanguine temperament, but I do not believe he will get 15,000 men in the Naval Reserve for a retainer of 6d. per day. It is indeed significant that we should be told that the Royal Naval Reserve is so unpopular that the men will not join it. Is it due to the fact that when a sailor has done his twelve years in the Navy he has had enough of it, that he is disgusted with it to such an extent that he does not want to have anything more to do with it for the rest of his life? If that be so, it indicates that the conditions of employment in the Navy are so unattractive that the sailor views with, pleasure the opportunity of ceasing all connection with the Navy at the expiration of his twelve years. I would suggest that instead of offering this retainer of 6d. per day for 15,000 men the right hon. Gentleman should consider the advisability of making the Navy during, the twelve years service more popular by adding the sixpence per day to the pay of the sailor, thus increasing the interest of the men in the service while they are members of it, and perhaps stimulating among them a greater love for the Reserve when they leave the active ranks. I shall be glad to hear that there is some, reason other than those I have suggested for the men not joining the Reserve, but I shall be agreeably surprised if at the end of twelve months, as a result of this sixpence per day retainer, the First Lord, has more than 300 or 400 additional men, in the Reserve. It appears to me that the condition of things is getting so unsatisfactory and intolerable, that where once a man has left the active ranks he is. only too glad to have nothing to do with the Reserve.

speaking by the indulgence of the House, said that the fact that the great majority of men continued from their twelve years service to the twenty-two years service proved that the service was not unpopular. The reason they did not join the Royal Naval Reserve was that they knew all the work of the Reserve, they knew all the drill, and there was a reluctance on their part to go through drills and so on, which were intended rather for recruits and men who had not been through the training that sailors of the Navy had. Inquiries had been made as to the probable success of the proposal, and it was understood that this offer would be an attraction to men who had left the service. It was not expected that the 15,000 men would be obtained at once. The 15,000 was the limit, and it was hoped that it would be reached in a certain number of years.

:: We have never yet made any efforts to secure the twelve years service men. Several times it has been suggested in Committee that something might be done to get these men back to the Reserve, but this is the first Bill ever placed before the House with that object. That my hon. friend is mistaken in his view about the popularity of the Navy is, I think, proved by the fact that such a very large proportion of the men, when their twelve years service expires, are only too anxious to serve the remaining term for a pension.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

Colonial Stock Bill Lords

[SECOND HEADING.]

Order for Second Reading read.

*

said it had been the custom for many years to empower trustees in this country to invest in colonial stock, but the colonies had long desired that the power should exist where it was not specifically given in settlements. The matter required and had received a great deal of consideration, and it seemed to the Govern- ment that the proper basis on which to deal with it was that there should be some sort of security to trustees that the colonies would maintain good faith with their creditors, that they would respond to any judgment of the courts in this country, and would come under the limitations of the Colonial Stock Acts, thus differentiating colonial stock from foreign stock, which, of course, was not subject to Parliament, the courts of this country, or the action of the Government. Therefore, this Bill, in the case of trust money where there was no special authority to invest in colonial stock, would enable trustees to make such an investment, provided the colony concerned came under certain conditions to be laid down by the Treasury. Those conditions would be, in the first place, that the colony should thoroughly accept the legal position, that any legislation on its part detracting from or interfering with the security of its creditors would be properly vetoed by the Imperial Government; in the second place, that their stock should be brought under the regulations of the Colonial Stock Acts of this country: and thirdly, that the colony should provide from its own revenue for the satisfaction of any judgment of the courts given against it in the United Kingdom. Further, that the colony shall provide funds in the hands of an agent or firm of high standing and position here for that purpose. These conditions would be laid down by the Treasury, and would have to be assented to by any colony coming under the Bill. An arrangement had been come to with the Dominion of Canada, and colonial legislation had been passed for the fulfilment of these conditions, and a similar course would be pursued by any colony desiring to come under the Bill. In Committee he hoped to meet a suggestion that public notice should be given whereby trustees in this country might know the colonies in whose stock they might safely invest. He was quite sure all of them would be ready to do anything they could for the welfare of their colonial fellow subjects. He did not think he needed to say anything more, and he hoped the House would give the Bill a Second Reading.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

So far as this Bill proposes to extend the scope of those securities in which trustees may invest in Colonial stocks, it is a useful measure, but in so far as it relates to giving control to the Treasury, although it is comparatively small, I dislike it. It has been a tradition on the part of the Treasury—not in the time of the right hon. Gentleman, for this is a tradition which he has inherited from his predecessors—that it is their duty to take care of trustees not only in connection with Colonial stock but with every sort of investments. The policy of the Treasury has been systematically to proscribe the limits within which trustees may invest to an extent, which has not only proved a great embarrassment to trustees, but which has very much restricted the scope of what I think was a much better system. This Bill proposes to extend the scope of colonial investments in which trustees may invest, and so far this Bill is good. But what I very much demur to is the extent to which the Treasury is made the judge in this matter under this Bill, which I consider is the extension of a bad principle. How can the Treasury usefully supervise the conditions under which Colonial stock is to be deemed good or bad? It is all very easy in case of first-class colonies from a trustees' point of view, but when you come to deal with other Colonial stock what does this Bill hold out? On the one hand there is the Treasury an don the other hand the trustees, who, I think, would be able to form a much more reliable judgment than the Treasury. I do not think we shall get a satisfactory condition of trustee investments until the trustees are allowed to judge for themselves. I demur altogether to this guardianship of trustees by the Treasury, even under the right hon. Gentleman, who is one of the most sympathetic Chancellors of the Exchequer towards trustees. Even if this Bill were a larger measure I should take the sense of the House upon it, because I object to the principle of control by the Treasury which underlies it.

said that with all respect to the views expressed by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down he thought this Bill would be welcomed not only by the Colonies but also by the trustees. The imprimatur of the Trea- sury, in his opinion, enhanced and safeguarded the value of Colonial stock.

said he was sorry that a Bill of this importance should be brought forward at such a late period of the session. It had only recently come down from the House of Lords, and the House was asked to pass it without the opinion of the various legal bodies in the country being expressed upon it. The Bill applied to Scotland as well as to England, and so far as legislation of this kind was concerned the legal bodies in Scotland had always taken very great pains to furnish Scotch Members with reports upon Bills like this which were of such a technical character. On the present occasion they had had no opportunity whatever of communicating with those legal bodies or of obtaining their reports. This placed Scotch Members under a considerable disadvantage. Clause 1 made a very considerable change in the law, of which they had had no explanation. It proposed that—

"For the purpose of enabling the Colonial Stock Acts, 1877 and 1892, to be applied to stock issued before the passing of this Act, it shall not be necessary that any prospectus, notice, stock certificate, coupon, dividend warrant, or other certificate or document issued before the passing of this Act in relation to the stock should state the particulars required to be stated therein by Section 19, of the Colonial Stock Act, 1877."
The Act of 1877 laid down most distinctly that the revenues of the colony were liable, and not the Consolidated Fund of Her Majesty's Treasury. He could quite understand how they might bring in the case of Canada, where the stock, although practically the same, were not identically similar. In 1892 the same question occurred about the giving of a certain amount of relief, and Section 19 of the Act of that year provided that the provisions of the Colonial Stock Act, 1877, should not apply to any stock in respect to which the provisions of that section had not been observed before the passing of the Act. That was a very reasonable provision in the Act of 1892. With regard to investments by trustees he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going a little too far by declaring that the trustees should be at liberty to invest in Colonial stock subject to certain conditions laid down by the Treasury. He thought it would be better to have Colonial stock put on a proper legal footing. How were the trustees to know whether the conditions of the Treasury had been complied with or not? It was provided in the Bill that they should be set forth in the London Gazette, but he wondered how many people read the London Gazette to ascertain what had been published there. But, supposing they read the London Gazette, how would they know that the conditions had been complied with? He thought those conditions should be put into the Act of Parliament, and a certificate should be required that those conditions had been fulfilled in the case of certain stock. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would examine the Colonial Stock Acts of 1877 and 1892 he would find that they provided for a register in this country. At any rate the Bill requires considerable care in its preparation, and he thought the House would agree with him that an important question of this kind ought not to be rushed through the House at this period of the session without very careful consideration. It was important that the legal bodies in England and Scotland should have an opportunity of considering this measure.

*

Scotland will be able to do the same thing under this Bill as she is able to do at present under the authority of the Courts.

said he had not looked up the point, and he did not profess to carry the Act of Parliament in his head. He did not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had his attention drawn to Section 15 of the Act of 1877. It was now proposed to repeal that section, although the law at the present moment provided that the transaction should be entered upon the register. Was it not a very strange thing, when making any alteration in the law, that they should give power to trustees to invest money in Colonial stock, when, according to the law, no trust could be entered on the register? If trustees were to be allowed to invest in Colonial stock, then by all moans that stock should be inscribed upon the register. Under these circumstances he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give a little more time for the consideration of this Bill. This was not a party measure at all, and there was nothing contentious about it, but he thought the conditions im- posed by the Treasury ought to have the judgment of the House pronounced upon them. He did not think that a matter of this kind ought to be left entirely to regulations to be drawn up by the Treasury. He did not agree with his hon. and learned friend the Member for Haddington that this was a matter for the judges. He believed it was a matter for the Treasury and for the House, and he thought they ought to know what conditions the Treasury were going to impose.

thought the measure would be very warmly welcomed by all the colonies.

I am entirely in accord with the principle of this Bill, but I am bound to say that I see some force in the objection raised by my hon. and learned friend. I have the good fortune, or the misfortune, of being-a trustee of several marriage settlements, and I am bound to say that I think this Bill throws very great difficulties in the way of those who are trustees. Looking at this Bill as a trustee I should not be inclined to invest trust money for which I am responsible in Colonial stock, because the Bill is so complicated. The measure is another instance of legislation by reference of which we have far too much in this House. The measure gives power to the Treasury to make certain rules to be published in the London Gazette, but it is so complicated that I am afraid it will not facilitate very much the investment of trust money in Colonial stock. I think it would be better to introduce a Bill which would enable the trustee to know exactly how he stood in regard to this matter, and which would throw a little more light upon the subject.

*

said if the hon. Gentleman did not want to invest money in colonial stock he need not do so.

said he was very glad to. hoar the statement of the Chancellor of the. Exchequer, for he confessed he looked with some doubt upon the Treasury in taking up this question. No one recognised more than he did the advantage to the colonists in bringing their funds under the ordinary trusts settlements, but after all he thought, when the Treasury made a move of this kind, it should take such a form as would protect trustees, so that they would have no doubt whether the funds were as safe as our own. He agreed with his hon. friend that the difficulty had been in investing trust funds. In these days, when judges construed the responsibilities of trustees so very closely, the Treasury ought to be most careful in extending the area for trust investments.

said he was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had taken this opportunity of enabling colonial stock to become trust stock. On several occasions it had been found that the finance of colonies had not been well managed, and he did not see that at the present moment there was any particular necessity to make a change in this direction. The facilities it would give to the colonies to borrow on cheaper terms would be increased, and he did not think the colonists had yet shown themselves to be quite alive to the position they should feel if their stocks were to be regarded as trustee stocks. They were rather too much inclined to borrow money for all kinds of purposes, some of them, he thought, with the idea of catching votes rather than making good use of the money.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

Imitation Of County Court Process Bill Lords

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

asked the Attorney General to give an explanation of the object of the Bill.

also asked for an explanation of the Bill, and particularly as to the method of procedure in the case of an accused person. He did not think it would be reasonable in a matter of this kind to proceed by way of contempt of court. Was he to be tried under the Summary Procedure Act? In that case the procedure would be cheap, and there would be an appeal on questions of law to the higher courts. On conviction he was liable to a fine of not exceeding £10. Supposing a man committed the offence more than once, why should it be a fine? If a man repeated an act of that kind, imprisonment without the option of a fine might be given. He objected to Bills being brought into the House at this period of the session, when they had not time to examine them.

said that he did not make a statement with regard to the object of the Bill in moving the Second Reading, because the measure was short and simple. The Bill was directed against the offence of sending out a summons for payment intending to convey the impression that the summons really proceeded from a county court. That was a serious offence which it was highly desirable to check summarily. Of course it was implied that the document sent emanated from an official of the court. The question of increasing the penalty for a repetition of the offence was a matter for discussion in Committee.

asked if there were any statistics to show whether the offence prevailed in London or in any particular parts of the country.

I am not in a position to give any statistics on the subject, but I have reason to believe that the offence is not an uncommon one.

said that the object of the Bill was a good one: but it seemed to create a sort of summary criminal jurisdiction in the county court. If the county court process was imitated, that was a criminal offence which should be treated like any other criminal offence. He asked the Attorney General to give some information on that point.

said the nature of the offence was really contempt of court. The process would be by motion. [AN HON. MEMBER: Why not have a jury?] If the hon. Member wished an Amendment of that sort there would be no chance of the Bill becoming law. The offence was one which bore very hardly on the poor. There ought to be some way of checking an abuse which did not affect the more intelligent classes and those who were well to do. It affected only the poor and ignorant, and it was only they who could be taken in by tricks of this kind. It was for their protection that the Bill had been brought in.

said this was to be done by motion before the county court judge. That was a novel procedure. So far as he could understand, the Bill applied to Ireland, and he saw no ground why it should not. Perhaps the Attorney General for Ireland would be good enough to inform him how the motion was to be made? Were rules to

AYES.

Anson, Sir William ReynellFitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. JohnFlower, ErnestMurray, Charles, J. (Coventry)
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness)Fry, LewisMurray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r)Gedge, SydneyNewdigate, Francis Alexand'r
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds)Goddard, Daniel FordNicol, Donald Ninian
Banbury, Frederick GeorgeGoschen, Rt Hn. G. J. (St. Geor's)Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts)Goschen, George J. (Sussex)Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol)Greville, Hon. RonaldPlatt-Higgins, Frederick
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. Curzon
Beckett, Ernest WilliamHanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bemrose, Sir Henry HoweHardy, LaurencePurvis, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.Haslett, Sir James HomerRankin, Sir James
Billson, AlfredHayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-Rentoul, James Alexander
Blundell, Colonel HenryHermon-Hodge, R. TrotterRichardson, Sir Thos (Hartlep'l)
Bond, EdwardHornby, Sir William HenryRidley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. JohnHorniman, Frederick, JohnRitchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Caldwell, JamesHowell, William TudorRobertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cavendish, V.C. W.(Derbysh.)Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)Lawrence, Sir E. Durning(Corn-Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm).Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb' I' nd)Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r)Leigh-Bennett, Henry CurrieStanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk)
Channing, Francis AllstonLewis, John HerbertStanley, Ed, Jas. (Somerset)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryLockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.Start, Hon. Humphry Napier
Charrington, SpencerLoder, Gerald Walter ErskineTalbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.)
Collings, Rt. Hon. JesseLough, ThomasThornton, Percy M.
Corbett, A. Cameron (GlasgowMacartney, W. G. EllisonTomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.Macdona, John CummingWarde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Cross, Herb. Sheph'd (Bolton)MacIver, David (Liverpool)Welby, Lt.-Cl.A. C. E.(Taunton)
Cubitt, Hon. HenryMaclure, Sir John WilliamWilson, John (Falkirk)
Curzon, ViscountMalcolm, IanWylie, Alexander
Dalrymple, Sir CharlesMassey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.Wyndham, George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Melville, Beresford ValentineWyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey
Faber, George DenisonMiddlemore, John T.Young, Commnader (Berks, E.)
Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn EdwardMore, Robert J. (Shropshire)
Finch, George H.Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

Finlay, Sir Robert BannatyneMorrison, James A. (Wilts S.)Sir William Walrond and
Fisher, William HayesMorton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)Macaleese, DanielTanner, Charles Kearns
Clark, Dr. G. B.MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Doogan, P. C.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Hayden, John PatrickSullivan, Donal (Westmeath)Mr. T. M. Healy and
Lambert, GeorgeSullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)Mr. Maurice Healy.

be made? Who was the aggrieved party to give notice? This Bill came to them from the House of Lords. He was filled with gratitude to that House for sending them a Bill for the protection of the poor man. There was the greatest anxiety for the poor on the Treasury benches. The Workmen's Compensation Act was to provide for the poor, and no lawyer was to come within a hundred miles of the poor. Yet that Act had been nothing but one for lawyers. The poor man was to be protected by this Bill. He respectfully said that a measure of this kind fell beneath contempt. If the Government could not engage themselves on better legislation they should dissolve.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 113: Noes, 11. (Division List No. 233.)

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

Public Works Loan's Bill

Considered in Committee

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

Amendment proposed—

"In Clause 1, page 1, line 13, to leave out 'Edward Howley Palmer, Esquire.' "—(Mr. Hanbury.)

said that some time ago Mr. Palmer had asked to be relieved of his duties.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, to leave out 'Lord Iveagh.'"— (Mr. Hanbury.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, after line 2, to insert' The Honourable James Henry Cecil Hozier, M.P.'" —(Mr. Hanbury.)

said he desired to know why Mr. Hozier's name was going to be inserted. Was everything going to be made a family matter? He had nothing to say against Scotchmen, but he wanted to know how it came to pass that Mr. Hozier was chosen for this position? Was it a remunerative position or was it not, and was Mr. Hozier a member of the Prime Minister's family or was he not?

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed—

"In line 2, after the last-mentioned name to insert 'David Lloyd-George, Esq., M.P."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:—

said he wished to know why the amount had been reduced from seven millions to six millions, and further, whether it was not a fact that of the six millions four and a half millions had been already pledged to various local bodies for the purpose of public works.

said that the grant of seven millions last year was a very special one indeed, and was very considerably larger than the average. In 1896 it was only one and a half millions; in 1897, two and a half millions; in 1898, five millions; and therefore he thought that six millions now was a very fair average.

said that as there was now a Welsh representative on the Board he was sure that they would get justice, and he therefore would not move his Amendment.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 3:—

asked why it was that gentlemen having large property should be allowed to escape these loans. There was a Mr. Lambert, who had been advanced £500 and had only repaid £82. It was the invariable practice of the Government in Ireland, while pressing small tenant farmers for every shilling, to let the landlords off. Here was a man whose name was perfectly familiar to them, who was let off of a sum of over £400, whereas a tenant in Ireland would not be lot off 4d. He was first inducted into the mystery of public loans by the First Lord of the Treasury, who, he remembered, in 1881 attacked Mr. Gladstone for his iniquities in connection with them. The right hon. Gentleman then made a great impression on him. He took a stand now on the case of Mr. Lambert, and he wished to know why he was to get off paying over £400.

said that, as the hon. Gentleman no doubt knew very well, Mr. Lambert was not getting off at all, because the debt remained, although it was wiped off' the assets of the Local Loans Fund, which had to be done, of course, in the interests of the fund itself. The Treasury did not forego any claim to recover the money so far as it was recoverable. He was bound to say that the advance to Mr. Lambert was rather a foolish advance. There were two advances —one in 1874, and the other in 1881.

said whatever Government was in did not now matter. The fact was that there was a large head rent, and sufficient regard had not been paid to that when making the advances. The payment of the head rent fell into arrear, and in order to save eviction and loss a salvage creditor paid off the arrears of the head rent and became, therefore, entitled to first priority over the other creditors. Ultimately the land was sold for £800, and nearly £600 went to satisfy the claims of the salvage creditor.

said that the Secretary of the Treasury had stated that the amount of the advances might be eventually recovered, but according to another statement of his the advances were irrecoverable. In this case the money was lent for the purpose of erecting buildings and putting down subsoil. Who was to get the benefit of it? He supposed it would be the head-rent man. It was not fair that money should be spent in this way on property which practically belonged to another man, and out of which the Government would never get a single penny. This case only illustrated the principle on which these loans were given in Ireland.

said that J. Fitzgerald received a loan of £3,000 for the purchase of his holding, which, of course, was said to be the value of the asset. The Government now wiped off £2,800. In other words, the holding on which they advanced £3,000 was not worth anything like that amount. They heard a great deal when the Home Rule proposal was before the country about the iniquity of Mr. Gladstone proposing to lend money for the purchase of Irish land. They were told it would be practically irrecoverable. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham made a great deal of the plea that the money would be irrecoverable, but here J. Fitzgerald got £3,000, and walked off with £2,800, £200 being the value of the land.

said this was one of the unfortunate cases in which a purchase took place from one relation to another. A certain proportion of the money would be recoverable. The value of the land had deteriorated very much from the condition in which it was when sold. He admitted that this was a case where the sum lent was larger than it ought to have been.

said they had protested over and over again against the system of fathers transferring land to sons, and mothers transferring land to daughters, and borrowing money from the State under the pretence that this was land purchase. They were entitled to know the name of the Commissioner. It was very regrettable that the money should be wasted, but those who were testifying year after year against this extravagant system in Ireland were not listened to.

said the rent of the land was £150. He did not know the name of the Commissioner, but he would ascertain for the hon. and learned Member.

said that, the restitution fund having been abolished, they ought to know out of what fund the Government proposed to pay the sums which they intended to wipe off this year.

said that what happened was that the loss to the Local Loans Fund was made good by a Vote of Parliament, and if any sums were subsequently recovered they were paid into the Exchequer.

said it was understood that a fifth was always retained by the Government in such cases. The advance in this case for was £3,000, of which a fifth would be £600. Therefore only £2,400 should have been lost, whereas £2,800 was actually lost. Why was not a fifth retained? He did not for a moment suggest that the Secretary to the Treasury was in any degree responsible, and doubtless the right hon. Gentleman had not the smallest sympathy with what he was defending. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should supply the date of the loan, the name of the Commissioner making the advance, the name of the valuer, and the Poor-law valuation. If the Land Commissioners knew that such details would lie set out in a Public Loans Bill they would be much more careful.

said he entirely agreed with the hon. Gentleman. He thought more light should be thrown on these transactions, and he would undertake that in future the fullest information should be given. He had already given the name of the valuer, and would endeavour to obtain the name of the Commissioner. As for the fifth which had been retained, it was all exhausted in paying instalments.

said he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman who J. Fitzgerald was? He happened to know East Cork very well, and there was only one James Fitzgerald there as far as he knew. He was an agent and had grabbed a certain number of farms in the district. He did not want to put it in a painful way, but that James Fitzgerald had a brother, an hon. Baronet sitting in the House for an English constituency. In such matters the process of identification ought to be gone through thoroughly. If he were the gentleman he imagined, he should not have any difficulty in getting a loan, because he was agent to Lord Middleton.

said he thought the Secretary to the Treasury would admit that it was quite proper that attention should be called to the matter, and that it should be gone into in more detail than usual. When money was being advanced on property in Ireland it should be done on business lines. The loan for £2,000, which the Committee was discussing, was only an illustration of how a bogus sale could be got up. The sale in that case was made by a mother to a son, and at that time it was represented that the rent of the property was £150. In 1899, however, only £58 could be got for it. In such cases the parties walked off with the money, leaving the Treasury to bear the loss. He thought they might reasonably have a statement showing for several years past the names and addresses of persons whose loans had been written off, and how much had been recovered. It was only right that the persons who were responsible for advancing money in Ireland should be impressed with the fact that the House of Commons would see that proper security was got for the advance, and that if a loss were incurred it would be enquired into. It was only in that way that the matter could be kept on a business principle, and he hoped after what had taken place that the Treasury would see the necessity for issuing special instructions.

Clause agreed to.

Bill reported, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Business Of The House

On the Motion for Adjournment:—

It may be for the convenience of the House if I say that after consultation I have come to the conclusion that the most convenient course for the House would be that the Colonial Vote should be taken on Wednesday.

said he hoped the Irish Intermediate Education Bill would not be taken after twelve o'clock. If it were to be taken To-morrow it ought to be taken at an early hour.

said that the Companies Bill was the most important Bill that now remained to be discussed, and he could not hold out any hope that they would be able to take the Intermediate Education Bill at an early hour To-morrow.

Adjourned at a quarter after One of the clock.