House Of Commons
Friday, 3rd August, 1900.
Private Bill Business
Alexandra Park Bill
Bray And Enniskerry Railway Bill
CHRISTCHURCH AND BOURENMOUTH TRAMWAYS BILL.
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL.
DEVONPORT CORPORATION BILL.
DUBLIN CORPORATION BILL.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL.
HASTINGS CORPORATION BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 31st July, and agreed to.
London County Tramways (No 1) Bill
London United Tramways Bill
Metropolis Gas (Prepayment Meter) Bill (Changed From "Gas Light And Coke, Commercial Gas, And South Metrpolitan Gas Companies Bill")
METRPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
NEWRY, KEADY, AND TYNAN LIGHT RAILWAY BILL.
NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL.
PLYMOUTH, STONEHOUSE, AND DEVONPORT TRAMWAYS BILL.
ROCHDALE CORPORATION BILL.
SCARBOROUGH CORPORATION BILL.
SOUTHPORT AND LYTHAM TRAMROAD BILL.
SOUTHPORT CORPORATION BILL.
SOUTH WALES ELECTRICAL POWER DISTRIBUTION BILL.
TAUNTON CORPORATION BILL.
TOTTENHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 31st July, and agreed to.
Fraser Settled Chattels Bill Lords
Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.
Bexhill And Rotherfield Railway Bill Lords
Ordered, That, in the case of the Bexhill and Rotherfield Railway Bill [Lords], Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration, provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited.—( Mr. Caldwell.)
Bill, as amended, considered accordingly.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—( Mr. Caldwell.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Sunderland Corporation Bill Lords
Ordered, That, in the case of the Sunderland Corporation Bill [Lords],
Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration, provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited.—( Mr. Caldwell.)
Bill, as amended, considered accordingly.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time. —( Mr. Caldwell.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 10) Bill
Tramways Provisional Orders (No 5) Bill
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to—
- Local Government (Ireland) (No. 2) Bill,
- Clontarf Urban District Council Bill,
- London, Walthamstow, and Epping Forest Railway (Abandonment) Bill, without amendment.
- Kingscourt, Keady, and Armagh Railway Bill, with Amendments.
- Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3) Bill [Lords],
- Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 4) Bill [Lords],
- Caledonian Railway Bill [Lords],
- Margate Corporation Bill [Lords],
- Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland Bill [Lords],
- Bexhill and Rotherfield Railway Bill [Lords],
- Bournemouth Corporation Bill [Lords],
- Sunderland Corporation Bill [Lords],
- Workington Railways and Docks Bill [Lords], without amendment.
Petitions
Imbeciles (Training Institutions) Bill
Petition from Bradford, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Industrial Schools Bill
Petition from Bradford, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Rating Of Woodlans
Petition from Newcastle-in-Emlyn, for alteration of law; to lie upon the Table.
Roman Catholic University In Ireland
Petition from Rochdale, against establishment; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (No 2) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Croydon; and Lincoln (two); to lie upon the Table.
Soldiers And Satlors On Active Service
Petition from Lichfield, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
Sunday Closing (Monmouthshire) Bill
Petition from Lincoln, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Contracts For School Boards (Wages)
Return [presented 2nd August] to be printed. No. 334.]
County Council Scholarships
Return [presented 2nd August] to be printed. [No. 335.]
Army (Militia Candidates)
Copy presented, of Regulations for the Competitive Examination of Militia Candidates for Commissions in the Army in September next [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Customs
Copy presented, of Forty-fourth Report of the Commissioners of Customs for the year ended 31st March, 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Revenue And Expenditure (England, Scotland, And Ireland)
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 2nd April; Mr. Lough]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 336.]
Imperial Revenue (Collection And Expenditure) (Great Britain And Ireland)
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 29th March; Mr. Joseph A. Pease]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 337.]
Superannuation Act, 1887
Copy presented, of Return for the year ended 31st March, 1900, of the Army and Navy Officers permitted, under Rule 2 of the Regulations drawn up under Section 6 of the Act, to hold Civil Employment of profit under Public Departments [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 338.]
Shipping Casualties (1898–9)
Copy presented, of Abstract of the Returns of Shipping Casualties which occurred on or near the Coasts, or in Rivers and Harbours, of the United Kingdom from the 1st July, 1898, to 30th June, 1899; and of the Returns of Shipping Casualties to British Vessels elsewhere than on or near the Coasts, or in Rivers and Harbours, of the United Kingdom, and to Foreign Vessels on or near the Coasts, or in Rivers and Harbours, of British Possessions Abroad, etc., with Charts and Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Railway Accidents
Copy presented, of Returns of Accidents and Casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several Railway Companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ending 31st March, 1900, together with Reports of the Inspecting Officers and Sub-Inspectors of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade upon certain Accidents which were inquired into [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Returns of Accidents and Casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several Railway Companies in the United Kingdom during the six months ending 30th June, 1900, together with Reports of the Inspecting Officers and Sub-Inspectors of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade upon certain Accidents which were inquired into [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Railway Accidents (General Report)
Copy presented, of General Report to the Board of Trade upon the Accidents that have occurred on the Railways of the United Kingdom during the year 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board Of Trade (Strikes And Lock-Outs)
Copy presented, of Report by the Chief Labour Correspondent on the Strikes and Lock-outs of 1899, etc. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board Of Trade (Standard Time Rates Of Wages)
Copy presented, of Report on Standard Time Rates of Wages in the United Kingdom in 1900, with Comparative Tables [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade And Shipping Of South-East Asia
Copy presented, of Return of Trade, Shipping, Railways, and Economic Condition generally of French Indo-China, Siam, Straits Settlements and Malay Federated States, and the British and Dutch Possessions in the East Indian Archipelago: a Series of Articles containing information collated from various sources, including the Board of Trade Journal [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Salmon And Fresh Water Fisheries (England And Wales)
Copy presented, of Thirty-ninth Annual Report of the Inspectors of Fisheries (England and Wales), for 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Sea Fisheries (England And Wales)
Copy presented, of Fourteenth Annual Report of the Inspectors, for 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Loss Of Life At Sea
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Ritchie]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 339.]
Railway Servants (Hours Of Labour)
Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade of their Proceedings. under the Railway Regulation Act, 1893, during the year ended 27th July, 1900 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 340.]
Weights And Measures
Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade on their Proceedings and Business under the Weights and Measures Acts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 341.]
Births, Deaths, And Marriages (England)
Copy presented, of Sixty-second Annual Report of the Registrar General, 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Education (England And Wales)
Copy presented, of Return showing under County Boroughs and Administrative Counties for each Public Elementary School inspected in England and Wales; the name and denomination of School; the number of Scholars for whom accommodation was provided; the average number of Scholars in attendance; the Annual Grant paid; and particulars of School Income and Expenditure; for the year ended 31st August, 1899 (with Summaries) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board Of Education
Copy presented, of Minute of the Board of Education, dated 31st July, 1900, modifying Article 101 ( g) of the Day School Code, 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Ordnance Survey
Copy presented, of Report of the Progress of the Ordnance Survey to the 31st March, 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2497 and 2498 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Navy (Health)
Copy presented, of Statistical Report of the Health of the Navy for the year 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 342.]
Naval Savings Banks
Account presented, of Deposits in Naval Savings Banks, and the payments thereof and the interest thereon, etc., during the financial year 1898–9 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Financial Statement (1900–1901)
Copy ordered, "of Tables relating to the Revenue and Expenditure for 1900–1901, according to the latest Estimates." —( Mr Hanbury.)
Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 333.]
Tea And Coffee
Copy of Statement ordered, "showing the Imports of Tea and Coffee into the principal Countries of Europe and into the United States, together with Statistical Tables relating thereto for recent years, as far as the particulars can be stated." —( Mr. Ritchie.)
County Courts (Plaints And Sittings)
Address for "Returns from every County Court in England and Wales of the total number of Plaints, etc., entered into each Court from the 1st day of January to the 31st day of December, 1899, both days inclusive, distinguishing those not exceeding, £20, those above £20 and not exceeding £50, and those by agreement over £50.
"And, of the Sittings of the County Courts in England and Wales holden before the Judges of such Courts in the year 1899 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 357, of Session of 1899)." —( Mr. Jesse Callings.)
Questions
China—Anti-Foreign Outbreak— Advance On Peking
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House who is to command the allied forces in their march upon Peking, and give any information regarding the advance. May I also ask, as a supplementary question, whether there is any truth in the statement that the advance of the allies on Peking has been delayed by the serious un preparedness of the British contingent.
As I told my hon. friend yesterday, we have no further information on the points raised in his original question. With regard to the supplementary question of which he gave me private notice, we certainly have no information of the advance of the allies being delayed by the dilatory preparations of the British contingent. On the contrary, our last information from General Gaselee, which I gave the House, was that he hoped shortly to advance, and anticipated the co-operation of the allies.
Proposed Loan To Chang Chih-Tung
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the assistance of Her Majesty's Government has been sought to enable Chang Chih-tung, the Wuchang Viceroy, to obtain a loan of 500,000 taels required for the military and other expenses of the Vice-royalty; and, if so, whether, in view of the protection afforded to British subjects by the troops of Chang Chih-tung, Her Majesty's Government will give the guarantee asked for.
We are not in possession of facts as to the purpose for which this loan is required and to which it may be applied, but we are making further inquiry. I am not in a position to make any statement.
Navy—Drafts Of Untrainkd Men For Service In China
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is usual for a sailor in the Royal Navy, on leaving the training ship as a boy for a man-of-war, to pass through the several gradations of ordinary seaman, trained man, able seaman, and subsequently to undergo a course of gunnery training in the school for that purpose; whether untrained men not above the rank of ordinary seamen have been drafted from the Channel Fleet for service in China; and, if so, how many; and will these untrained men be placed on active service on shore without any previous qualification for taking the field, or will any steps be taken that they should be fully trained and instructed in musketry before their employment in active service.
I think the hon. Member has made a confusion between gunnery and musketry. All seamen entered as boys have naturally to pass through certain grades in the course of their service and receive the training prescribed for such grades. The course of the question must not be confused with instruction in musketry, in which all first-class boys are trained. No boys or men untrained in musketry would be drafted to ships on stations abroad. The men and boys sent to the China station have been drafted in the ordinary way.
Indian Troops For China
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what will be the composition of the force of the third Indian Brigade now placed under orders for China, and will it consist of British or native troops; will the expenses of this force also be borne by the Imperial Exchequer; and what steps will be forthwith taken to supply this further depletion of the defensive forces of India.
The composition of the third Indian Brigade now under orders for China will be four native infantry regiments. The expenses of this force will be borne by the Imperial Exchequer. As the Reserve of the native Army was below the fixed establishment, I have authorised a temporary addition to it of 4,000 native infantry.
Auxiliary Forces—Service In China And South Africa
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether ho can state approximately the number of men who have joined the Yeomanry, Militia, and Volunteer forces since the-invitation that was made to members of those forces to volunteer for service in South Africa; whether, in view of the part played by the Militia and Volunteers on that occasion, and the excellence of their record in South Africa, the commanding officers of the various battalions will be ordered to parade their men to invite volunteers for service in rescuing the Legations in China; and whether the Yeomanry, Militiamen, and Volunteers now serving in South Africa are liable, under the terms of their engagement, to be sent to China for such service.
The number of men who have joined the Militia since 1st December last is about 28,000; with regard to the Yeomanry and Volunteers, although I know that largo numbers have joined, I cannot give figures, because the War Office only receives complete Returns once a year. My noble friend, however, proposes to ask for more frequent Returns. There is no present intention of sending members of these forces to China; certainly no attempt will be made to send any there under the terms of their enlistment for South Africa.
Are the men in South Africa liable to be sent there?
No.
South African War—Hospital And Medical Arrangements Inquiry
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury under what headings will the expenses of the Royal Commission on South African Military Hospitals be included in the Estimates; and will details of the main items of the expenses connected with this Royal Commission under definite headings be furnished.
The expenses of the Royal Commission will be charged on the Vote for temporary Commissions. The answer to the second paragraph of the question is in the affirmative.
Will an item for whitewash be included?
Documents Found At Bloemfontein And Pretoria Said To Implicate Mp's
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether documents have been discovered during the search of the Government Offices at Pretoria, affecting certain Members of the House of Commons and other politicians who have taken a prominent part in the agitation in this country in favour of the Boers; whether there is any information which, he can give to the House on the subject without detriment to the public interest;: if such documents have been, found, whether they will be laid before Parliament; and whether Her Majesty's Government are in possession of any correspondence between British Members of Parliament and Transvaal authorities; and, if so, whether it can be laid upon the Table.
The following questions also appeared on the Paper on the same subject:—
To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any letters have been found at Pretoria from Members of this House of a compromising character; and if so, whether he has any information, to give to the House upon this subject.
To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the correspondence discovered at Pretoria, among other papers of the Transvaal Government, which is alleged to be treasonable, and to involve Members of this House and other British subjects, will be laid upon the Table forthwith.
Perhaps I may be allowed at the same time to answer all the questions on this subject. When the Boer Governments fled from Bloemfontein and Pretoria, they left behind them in the archives a mass of private correspondence. This correspondence has been under examination by the British authorities on the spot, and by the last two mails I have received instalments of it, but I am informed that there is more to come. The portion that I have seen is all previous to the outbreak of the war, and consists chiefly of letters passing between British subjects at the Cape and persons in the two Republics, but it includes copies of two letters purporting to have been written by an English M.P. Her Majesty's Government have also in their possession copies of letters and an extract of a letter purporting to have been written by two other M. P.'s. Two of them were dated just before the outbreak of war; the other is a request, couched in a form which is certainly open to criticism, for information respecting the administration of martial law. The most interesting feature of the South African correspondence is the general admission of substantial grievances, and of the necessity for reform. There are, however, some suggestions that President Kruger might make temporary concessions and wait for a re-action in this country. I observe that the hon. Member for Mcrthyr Tydvil speaks of the correspondence as treasonable. I am, of course, quite unable to give a legal opinion; but so far as my personal opinion is concerned, the letters ascribed to British subjects in this country are not treasonable, but they are not proper letters to be written by British subjects when Her Majesty's Government were engaged in difficult and important negotiations. I propose to send them in the first instance to the alleged writers, and to ask if they desire to offer any explanation. Her Majesty's Government will wait their reply before deciding on the question of publication.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, among these archives, copies of the Rhodes-Chamberlain (Hawksloy) correspondence were found?
No, Sir; there is no such correspondence.
Oh, oh !
There is no such correspondence—there never has been.
Why don't you produce it?
There is nothing to produce.
Orange River Colony—Compensation To English Settlers
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it will be possible, in the final settlement in South Africa, to give favourable consideration to the case of those Englishmen, settled in the Orange River Colony, who have suffered imprisonment and the confiscation of the whole of their stock and goods, because they refused to take up arms against their fellow-countrymen in the war.
The question raises a very difficult point, on which we have to be particularly careful, in order not to create precedents which might hereafter be extremely inconvenient. Above all, we have to preserve a distinction between the cases of those who suffered by war in Her Majesty's possessions and those who suffered when resident in a foreign country to which they had voluntarily gone. At the same time, I may say personally that I have the greatest sympathy with those in both the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal who have suffered on account of their loyalty. The only answer I can give to the question is that the matter is under consideration, but no statement can at present be made as to the manner in which such cases will be dealt with or whether any compensation can be obtained.
Enteric Fever Cases At Bloem-Fontein And Kroonstadt
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he can now give the number of admissions for and the number of deaths from enteric fever at Bloemfontein for the weeks ending 8th, 15th, and 22nd Juno; and also if he can give the number of admissions for enteric fever and the number of deaths from that disease at Kroonstadt for the weeks ending 25th May, and 1st, 8th, and 15th June.
The figures are as follow:—
| Bloemfontein. | |||
| Week ending | Admissions. | Deaths. | |
| 8th June | … | 487 | 98 |
| 15th June | … | 213 | 64 |
| 22nd June | … | 221 | 52 |
| Kroonstadt. | |||
| 25th May | … | 6 | — |
| 1st June | … | 83 | 12 |
| 8th June | 18 | … | 18 |
| 15th June | 66 | … | 11 |
Treatment Of Invalided Canadians At Shornclieee Camp
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the treatment of certain members of the Canadian contingent, who had been invalided home, at Shorneliffe Camp from 1st to 8th June, during which time they were without any proper accommodation and rations; and will he state who was responsible for such treatment.
I presume the hon. Member is referring to certain allegations which appeared in the newspapers at a time corresponding to the dates he gives. A telegram of inquiry was sent to Shorncliffe on the subject, and the following answers were received from the officer commanding the Provisional Battalion, to which the Canadians are attached:— (1) By telegraph, on 12th June—
(2) By letter, 13th June—"No grounds for any complaints; Canadians here are very angry at reports in papers, and came to me yesterday and asked for permission to write to contradict them, which, of course, by the regulations, I could not give.—KELLY."
"The Brigade-Major, Shorncliffe.
"With reference to the inquiries of the Adjutant-General as to the housing, feeding, and granting of furloughs to noncommissioned officers and men of the Royal Canadian Regiment and to certain paragraphs in newspapers stating that they were not being well treated exactly the same as other soldiers in the battalion.
"All who wish to go on furlough have had one granted them. In one ease the man returned in two or three days, having spent his money, and will consequently be in debt for the next two months. The non-commissioned officers and men of the Royal Canadian Regiment were much annoyed at the paragraphs in certain papers which stated they were not well treated: and the senior asked to see me, and said they were quite satisfied and asked for permission to write to the newspapers to contradict the reports about them.
(Signed) "C. H. KELLY, Colonel
Commanding Provisional Battalion."
The General Officer Commanding, Shorncliffe, adds:—"Shorncliffe, 13th June, 1900."
"I fully bear out the statements and opinions of Colonel Kelly. I not so very long ago personally saw and conversed with some of the men and they gave me the impression of men who were quite contented with their position and surroundings.
(Signed) "H. HALLAM PARR, Major-
General, Commanding
South Eastern District.
"Shorncliffe, 13th June, 1900."
May I ask the Under Secretary whether ho has received a statement sent to him, not founded on any newspaper report, but written by one of the men themselves, detailing exactly the ill-treatment they have experienced. If he has not received it will he let me send him a copy of it?
I do not think the testimony of one man would outweigh the general testimony of the others. I did not give one paragraph of Colonel Kelly's letter, because it reflected on the newspaper press of this country, but in that paragraph Colonel Kelly said that the Canadians had told him that there was one grumbler amongst them to whom they attributed all the paragraphs.
Is the hon.Gentleman aware it was stated in that letter that——
Order, order ! The hon. Member cannot enter into details.
I will put a further question on the subject.
Purchases Of Warlike Stores Abroad
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any and what kind of warlike stores were purchased abroad for the purposes of the campaign in South Africa; and what is the total estimated sum paid or to be paid for such purchases up to 31st December, 1899.
Certain purchases of warlike stores have been made abroad, but these bear a very small proportion to the purchases made at home. For example., we have purchased—
| At Home. | India. | Abroad. |
| (a) Harness and saddlery, 25,000 sets and 62,000 sets (mule) | — | 7,000 sets. |
| (b) Drab serge, 200,000 (more now). | — | 50,000 |
| (c) Boots, 240,000 | 160,000 | — |
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last paragraph on Monday?
If hon. Members can defer their questions till Tuesday, that will enable the officials at the War Office to have the Bank Holiday.
Is it a fact that largo contracts have been concluded with Hungarian firms for the supply of foreign flour, and will the hon. Gentleman endeavour to give all such orders possible to the English flour-milling trade?
Not forgetting Sheffield.
Casualty Statistics
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that in the official table of casualties since the beginning of the war in South Africa up to and including 28th July, the total losses are reported as 36,559 officers and men, and that this number includes 1,044 officers and 24,058 men, a total of 25,102, sent home as invalids, it can be stated in these Returns in future what number of officers and men sent home as invalids have died or have recovered, or are still invalids, in order to give an accurate return of the actual losses due to the war.
Yes, Sir. This information will in future, so far as possible, be given in the weekly statement of casualties. It is hoped that the figures can be prepared in time for inclusion in next week's table.
Ladysmith Pigeon Post
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the pigeon post so useful in the siege of Ladysmith was organised by the War Office or by private enterprise; whether his attention has been called to a letter offering to organise such a service, received from Mr. A. Hirst by the War Office, but which was not answered, and whether the service was afterwards accepted by Sir George White without orders from the War Office; and whether there is any intention on the part of the War Office to organise a service of carrier pigeon communication from the north of Europe towards the British coast.
The pigeon post established at Ladysmith was organised, under the authority of the General Officer commanding, by Messrs. Hirst and Wright, to both of whom the success which attended the working of the system was largely due. The pigeon post was made use of and supervised by the Intelligence Department during the siege. No letter from Mr. Hirst offering to organise a carrier pigeon system can be traced in the War Office. A training establishment for homing pigeons is about to be established at Aldershot.
Field Batteries At Aldershot
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state what is the establishment of the new field batteries now stationed at Aldershot, and what is their actual strength in horses and guns.
The hon. and gallant Member probably refers to the batteries whoso formation was begun on the 28th July. I have no detailed information of their strength, but I understand that they have about one-third of their establishment.
Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the guns are ready?
You can hardly expect that, when the formation of the batteries was only begun four or five days ago.
Colour-Sergeants' Pensions
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether colour sergeants, on the completion of twenty-one years service, become entitled to a pension of 2s. 6d. a day for life; whether it is in the power of a commanding officer to refuse to recommend for discharge men on the completion of the term of twenty-one years, and to compel them after they have earned pensions to serve for the small sum which constitutes the difference between the pay and the pension; and on what grounds can a man be compelled to prolong his service in the Army on the completion of the term during which he engaged to serve and after he has earned his retiring pension.
In reply to the first paragraph the man is, subject to certain conditions as to the quality of the service, entitled to the pension. During war or when the Reserves are called oat a soldier may he detained with the colours for a period not exceeding twelve months beyond the date of expiration of his term of service.
Accommodation For Militia On Salisbury Plain
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the huts at Bulford Camp have been ordered to be ready by 1st November to hold the Militia at present under canvas there, and whether it is intended to keep them under canvas until then, bearing in mind that the weather is severe on Salisbury Plain; and whether, seeing that these huts cannot possibly be finished by the contractor, although he is receiving the assistance of the Engineer Militia, by 1st November, it is intended to keep the Militia under canvas during the winter until they are ready; and if not, whore it is proposed to accommodate them; and, as more huts are still to be built by the winter, can he state where it is proposed to accommodate the troops until they are ready, also whether the huts in course of erection at Bulford Camp will be solidly built on proper foundations, and what provision will be made for hospital accommodation at Bulford Camp.
The huts in course of erection at Bulford are for the field artillery, and will, it is hoped, be completed by 30th September. The question of huts for the Militia is a complicated one, into which I am not prepared to go in any detail. But I can assure the hon. Member that it is not the intention of the Government to keep the Militia in tents after the camping season is over, nor to house them in insufficient or insanitary buildings.
Is it within the knowledge of the War Office that there is any ground for the allegation that these huts cannot possibly be finished by the contractor by 1st November?
The first half of the huts will be completed long before, but I cannot undertake to say whether the second half will be. As I have said, the question is a complicated one and depends on the movements of the Regular forces as well as of the Militia, but the Government have taken such steps as will prevent any inconvenience arising from overlapping.
Sheffield City Police And Rifle Practice
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has yet heard whether the War Office will accede to the request of the City Council of Sheffield, on the recommendation of the Watch Committee, that rifles be lent and practice ammunition be issued for the use of the City Police Force, and their preparation to augment the national forces in the event of invasion.
I understand that the War Office are not prepared to grant special facilities to members of police forces over and above those afforded to members of rifle clubs affiliated to the National Rifle Association under the scheme which has recently come into operation. There does not appear to be anything to prevent members of police forces availing themselves of this scheme.
Ammunition Hoists On Ships Of War
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the ammunition hoists on board nearly all the ships in the Navy are hand hoists, while those of foreign navies have in addition electrical hoists; if so, can ho state the reason for our ships not being provided with electrical hoists.
The ammunition hoists in the British Navy are generally hydraulic for heavy guns, and hand for medium and light guns, electrical hoists being fitted only in a few ships Foreign navies have adopted electrical hoists in many cases. The advantages and disadvantages of the two systems, and the conditions under which they should each be used, depend on a variety of circumstances which are too numerous to be dealt with in reply to a question; but as a general principle it is considered that it is not wise to introduce complicated machinery, involving periodical repairs and additional expenditure of fuel, when the work can be done equally well by hand.
Steam Coal Contracts
I beg to ask the irst Lord of the Admiralty if he is ware that inconvenience is caused to those tendering by invitation to the Admiralty for the supply of steam coal by the delay in notifying them whether their tenders have been accepted or otherwise; and if he can in future arrange to obviate the delay.
The inconvenience which may be caused to firms tendering by delay is fully recognised, but the question of the allocation of the orders requires careful consideration. Tenders are always dealt with as speedily as possible.
New Pattern 12-In Guns—Delayed Delivery
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can explain the circumstances under which, as stated in the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the Navy, out of a batch of six new pattern 12-inch guns, on which considerable sums have been paid as instalments, only one, and that eight months in arrear and defective, had been accepted.
The whole question referred to by the right hon. Baronet is still under consideration, and until it is decided what action is to be taken, it is not desirable to make any further statement or explanation. I may add that, so far, no inconvenience to the service has been caused by the delay in question.
Ashanti—Native Rising—Causes
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has ascertained the cause of the rising of the natives of Ashanti.
No; and it will not be possible to form a definite opinion as to the causes of the rising until further information can be obtained when, order has been restored.
Cocoa Butter Import Duties
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the amount collected from the duty on the importation, of cocoa butter since its imposition to 31st July, 1900, and the amount it produced between 1st August, 1899, and 31st July, 1900.
The amount of revenue collected from the duty on the importation of cocoa butter from the 1st August, 1899, to 31st July, 1900, was £3,231, and for the whole period since the imposition of the duty (7th August, 1896, to 31st July, 1900), was £14,033.
Exports Of British Coal
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state to what countries the increased export of British coal has mainly gone, and, in particular, what governments or countries have increased their purchases of coal suitable for naval use; and if such export has increased the cost of coal for the Royal Navy or reduced its supply.
The increase in the exports of coal, coke, and fuel from the United Kingdom during the first six months of this year over the exports in the first six months of 1899 was 1,073,000 tons. The increase, however, was not general among the various countries to which the coal, etc., was sent, there having been decreases in the exports to some countries amounting in the aggregate to 970,000 tons, and increases to others to the extent of 2,043,000 tons. The principal increases were to Germany, 405,000 tons; Holland, 451,000 tons; and France, 810,000 tons. I am informed that the total exports of coal from Wales in the six months January to June, 1900, show a decrease of more than 400,000 tons compared with the same period of 1899. The increase in the cost of fuel for the Royal Navy, therefore, cannot be attributed to increased export of the kind required.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if it is practicable to determine at the time of the shipment the purposes for which coal exported abroad is to lie used; and if he can state approximately the proportion of coal exported foreign which is sent to British possessions, to British subjects resident abroad, and to coal depots in foreign countries for the supply of British-owned steamers. I beg also to ask the President of the Board of Trade if ho can state the decreases in the exports foreign of coal from Cardiff and Newport in June and for the first six months of this year respectively, as compared with the corresponding periods of 1899. I beg also to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that no steam navigation or other coal was shipped from Cardiff to Calais during the first six months of this year, and that no coal of any kind was cleared from any South Wales port to Calais during that period with the exception of one cargo of 740 tons from Newport in June last; and if he will cause inquiries to be made as to shipments of this kind.
I am unable to say for what purposes coal exported to foreign countries is to be used, nor what proportion is to be utilised by British subjects. I will obtain and communicate to the hon. Gentleman information as to the amount of coal exported to British possessions, and as to the decrease in exports from Cardiff and Newport in the first six months of this year as compared with those of the corresponding period of 1899. The Customs records do not enable mo to say what quantities of coal are exported to particular foreign ports.
Sheffield Assay Office
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience resulting from the absence of arrangements for a gold assay at the Sheffield Assay Office; and whether ho will promote or assist whatever legislative or other measure may be required for the purpose of making it unnecessary for gold articles manufactured at Sheffield to be sent to other towns in order that they may be assayed and hall-marked.
No, Sir; my attention had not been called to this matter. Silver articles may be assayed in Sheffield, and I should have thought the manufacture of articles made of gold was comparatively very limited in that city. I cannot, of course, promise any legislation, but I can assure my right hon. friend that I shall be happy to give my best consideration to any evidence produced to prove that Sheffield is placed at a disadvantage in this respect.
Voluntary Subscriptions For Church Schools
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he can state the totals of the voluntary subscriptions to the Church schools for the years 1897, 1898, 1899, and 1900 respectively.
The figures for the statistical years ending 31st August were:—1897, £630,169; 1898, £583,613; 1899, £600,286. The returns for 1900 are not yet complete.
Vaccinated Calves
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board how many calves are kept by the Department as reservoirs of lymph for vaccination purposes; how many of the animals so used are sold annually as food for the people; and where the sales take place.
The average number of calves now vaccinated weekly at Lamb's Conduit Street is seventeen. All the calves from which lymph has been collected are within the next few days slaughtered under veterinary supervision, and the calves passed on veterinary authority as sound are sold in the Central Meat Market, Smithfield.
Vaccination Officers And The Local Government Board— "Bramble V Lowe"
I bog to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown, based on the case of Bramble v. Lowe, by which he has justified the action of the Board in treating vaccination officers as servants of the Board and not as subject to the directions of the guardians, referred only to prosecutions under Section 31 of the Act of 1867, the opinion of the Law Officers has been taken on the extension of this practice of ousting the power of the guardians to direct the proceedings of their vaccination officer to prosecutions under Section 29 of the Act of 1867; and whether he will give the opinions of the Law Officers as a Parliamentary Paper.
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension in supposing that the Local Government Board have treated the vaccination officers as their servants. As the Board explained in their circular of the 21st October, 1898, the power and the duty of taking proceedings are vested in the vaccination officer under the Vaccination Acts passed prior to the Vaccination Act, 1898, without any Order of the Board or direction from the guardians. The opinions which the Law Officers have given to this effect referred to prosecutions both under Section 29 and Section 31 of the Vaccination Act, 1867; but the hon. Member must be aware that it would be entirely opposed to the established practice to publish these opinions.
Vaccination Fees At Wigan
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the minimum fees fixed by the Vaccination Order, 1898, press heavily on the local ratepayers at Wigan and other places; and that there was paid in the town of Wigan for the year ending Lady Day. 1898, £516 9s. 5d.; for the year 1899, £433 5s.; for the year 1900, £1,541 7s. 7d.; and whether, in view of these charges, he will consider the whole matter with a view of placing them on a more reasonable basis.
We have not got the figures for 1900 which show the increase in expenditure at Wigan, but the establishment of a system of domiciliary vaccination has necessarily added to the cost of vaccination, as the duties of the officers have in consequence been very consider- ably increased. Moreover, the amount of the fees to some extent depends on the number of successful vaccinations, and I am glad to say that this number has been largely augmented since the Vaccination Act, 1898, came into operation. In the Wigan Union there was an increase of about 60 per cent, in the number of successful vaccinations in 1899 as compared with 1898. I have, however, received other representations on this matter, and I am, as I always have been, willing, to consider whether an alteration should, be made in the minimum fees prescribed by the Vaccination Order; but I think we should have some further experience before determining whether this course ought to be adopted.
Poplar Guardians—Treatment Of Pauper Children
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Poplar Board of Guardians propose to spend about £150,000 in building a pauper children's village at Hutton, and that the Poor Law Schools Committee recommend in their Report that pauper children should not be kept as a class apart and aggregated in large numbers, and whether the proposed departure from the recommendation of the Poor Law Schools Committee has been sanctioned; and, if not, what steps he intends to take to induce the Poplar Board of Guardians to adopt the alternative methods of dealing with the children recommended by the Poor Law Schools Committee.
The Poplar Guardians propose to provide new accommodation at Hutton to replace the "barrack" schools at Forest Gate. Plans and estimates have not yet been submitted to the Local Government Board, and I am not in a position to state definitely what the new buildings will consist of or what the cost will be. I understand, however, that the girls and the boys under ten will be provided for in cottage homes, and the older boys in blocks. The Local Government Board have expressed their willingness to assent to the purchase of the site, and the details of the scheme will be carefully considered when the plans are submitted.
Carmarthen Prison Matron's Pension
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the question in dispute between the Local Government Board and the Treasury, in reference to the pension of Miss Bryant, the late matron of Her Majesty's prison, Carmarthen, has yet been settled; and, if so, whether he will state the result; and whether he is aware of the fact that, pending the settlement of the question, Miss Bryant is inadequately provided for.
The decision has not yet been given in the case referred to in the question, but I hope that this will be done in the course of the next few days.
Rating Of Cemeteries
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the increasing losses imposed upon local authorities having within their districts cemeteries belonging to other local authorities owing to the exemption of such cemeteries from re-assessment; and whether, in the next session of Parliament, he will propose that Section 15 of the Burial Act of 1855, which provides for such exemption from reassessment, should be repealed.
I have no doubt that the result of the enactment referred to in the question is that lands used as burial grounds are in certain cases assessed at a lower rate than would otherwise be the case, and that whore this is so some loss occurs to local authorities. I cannot give any undertaking about legislation next session.
Sewage Pollution Of The Thames
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that during the year 1899 thirty-eight sewage overflows discharged sewage into the Thames on its northern side within the London area; and, seeing that such discharges of sewage are liable to take place whenever the rainfall exceeds one-tenth of an inch, and that the existing obligations of law compel local authorities to admit the combined drainage of sewage and water to their sewers, whether, in the next session of Parliament, it is his intention to introduce a Bill to enable the local authorities to keep separate, if they desire to do so, the sewage and the water drainage of their districts.
No, Sir, my attention has not been called to the facts referred to, and I have no information to show how far they are as suggested in the first paragraph of the question. With regard to the second paragraph, local authorities have the power to provide, and they have in some instances already provided, separate systems for sewage and water drainage. The further legislation suggested on the subject would, it appears, raise questions of considerable importance which would involve heavy expense. As I stated in reply to the last question, I am not in a position to give any pledge with regard to legislation next session.
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a recurrence of pollution of the River Thames, near the sewage pumping stations at Halfway Reach and Barking Reach; and whether he will cause the necessary steps to be taken to obtain an abatement of the nuisance as a precaution against danger to health of those engaged upon the river.
I have made inquiry on this subject, and I am informed that it is the recent hot weather which is mainly responsible for the nuisance complained of in the part of the river referred to in the question. I learn from the London County Council that they are fully intent on further improving the condition of the river, and that they have undertaken several large works with that object. The Local Government Board have no power to take or to cause any steps to be taken in the matter.
Religious Ministrations In Workhouses
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether in the Thorne Union workhouse the services are taken alternately by the vicar of Thorne and by some Nonconformist ministers; whether the majority of these inmates of this workhouse are entered as members of the Church, of England; whether in the Beverley Union workhouse there are any Church of England services on Sundays: whether in both these cases the guardians have declined to appoint chaplains, as required by the regulations of the Local Government Board; and whether he proposes to take any steps to remedy this state of things.
I find on inquiry that the answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. There has been no paid chaplain at the Thorne workhouse since 1879, or at the Beverley workhouse since 1881, and hitherto we have received no complaint on the subject. In reply to the last paragraph, I have directed a communication to be addressed in the first instance to the guardians in each case, pointing out the duty which rests upon them as regards services on Sundays, and asking for their explanations as to why that duty has not been performed.
What will the right hon. Gentleman do if the explanation of the board of guardians is not satisfactory?
I am not prepared to answer that.
Overcrowding On Railways
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General whether railway companies who have issued tickets to passengers for particular trains are bound to provide seats for those passengers in the respective classes of carriages for which they have paid; and what remedy there is against railway companies for the overcrowding of carriages.
The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative, subject to this qualification, that the contract of carriage may be made conditional upon there being room in the train. Most railway companies have a bye-law with this object as to tickets issued at intermediate stations Railway companies are responsible for any overcrowding of carriages due to default on their part or on the part of their officials. It was said by Lord Blackburn in the House of Lords in the case of the Metropolitan Railways Company v. Jackson (reported in the L.R. for 1878, 3 App. Cas. p. 193) that a pas- senger is entitled to be carried in a carriage with reasonable accommodation, and that the company ought to take reasonable steps to prevent passengers getting into carriages already full. The remedy is by action, in which, as it was pointed out in the case already referred to, the prosecutor may recover for any damage sustained by him in consequence of overcrowding duo to default on the part of the company or their servants.
National Gallery—Protection Against Fire
I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works what progress has been made in acquiring property needed for the isolation of the National Gallery.
The purchase of property, with a view to creating a clear space not less than 40ft. wide, to the west of the National Gallery, has been agreed to, in principle, by the Government and the vendors; and negotiations are now in progress as to the settlement of the price to be paid. The purchase should be shortly completed.
Inspector Of Ancient Monuments
I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works if he has yet appointed an Inspector of Ancient Monuments in succession to the late General Pitt-Rivers.
It has been thought advisable not to make any appointment immediately, so that some indication may first be gathered of the probable effect of this year's legislation for the extension of the Ancient Monuments Protection Act. The appointment is vested by statute in the Treasury.
Swine Fever—Removal Regulations
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that the present Swine Fever (Movement) Orders, whereby a licence is required to be obtained for the transmission of fat pigs for slaughter, are causing not only inconvenience but also loss to farmers in Somerset; and whether he will withdraw these Orders.
My right hon. friend asks me to say that he is well aware of and much regrets the inconvenience and even loss which is occasioned by the Order to which the hon. Member refers; but inasmuch as no fewer than thirty-two outbreaks of swine fever occurred in the infected area during June, it became urgently necessary to take steps to prevent the conveyance of infection to other districts. The position, which has somewhat improved since the Order was made, will lie constantly kept in view, and the Order revoked at the earliest possible moment consistently with safety.
London Telegraphists—Risk Allowances
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether counter clerks and telegraphists in the East Central and Metropolitan District Offices received additional risk allowance whilst performing overtime, both before and after the Tweedmouth Committee; and whether the Secretary to the Post Office has now withdrawn this right; and, if so, whether the Postmaster General will direct that all officers entitled to receive risk allowance shall receive this allowance whilst in the performance of overtime, in accordance with the past practice of the Department.
It appears that a misunderstanding has arisen with regard to the payment of risk allowances at certain district offices, and arrangements are now being made to adjust such cases as are found to come within the reservation made by the Tweedmouth Committee.
Luggage Charges On Scotch Railways
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that passengers between London and Scotland whoso luggage is paid for and booked through to stations in Scotland are surcharged on reaching Scotland according to the higher scale for excess luggage for that portion of the journey that is performed on the Scottish lines; and whether he will urge on the Scottish railway companies the necessity for the removal of this inconvenience.
The point raised by the hon. Member shall be brought to the attention of the Scottish companies. It is most desirable that there should be uniformity of practice among all the companies with regard to this matter.
Ireland—Castleblayney Railway Stores
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Monaghan, I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the attention of the directors of the Great Northern Railway Company has been called by the traders of Castleblayney and neighbourhood to the injury done to meal, floor, bran, and other feeding stuffs which is delivered in the stores of that company owing to the swarm of rats that infest the place; and if he will take any steps to compel this railway company to protect the property of the traders who have to frequent their line from the rats.
I will draw the attention of the company to the substance of the hon. Member's question.
Carrickmacross Workhouse
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Monaghan, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a number of tramps have been frequenting the workhouse of Carrickmacross during the past years, and that members of this class attempted to burn that workhouse recently; whether the inspector to the Local Government Board of Carrickmacross district has reported upon this tramps nuisance, and suggested any remedy, or will he ask a report from him on this subject; and whether, seeing that casuals to workhouses do not work, but walk from workhouse to workhouse, which are built so near to each other that it is recreation for them, he will consider the advisability of compulsory amalgamation of workhouses, which would be an inducement to make able bodied tramps work if they had longer journeys from one workhouse to another.
I have already stated that it is probable a large number of the admissions to the Carrickmacross workhouse belonged to the tramp class. Three persons of this class were recently sent for trial to the assizes charged with an attempt to set fire to the dormitory of the workhouse. As respects the second paragraph, I have nothing to add to the statement made by me on the 26th July. If the guardians desire to confer with the Local Government Board inspector on the subject, he will be instructed to attend before them at any time they may appoint. With reference to the third paragraph, I do not think, having regard to the requirements of the deserving sick and poor, that it would be advisable to close workhouses merely for the purpose of imposing on tramps longer journeys in travelling from one workhouse to another. If amalgamation on general grounds is desirable, and can be carried out without hardship to the sick and destitute, the Board will at all times be glad to further the wishes of the local authorities in the matter.
Donegal National Teachers' Association-School Requisites
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been directed to a resolution passed at the annual meeting of the Donegal National Teachers' Association, held at Stranorlar on Saturday, 28th July, wherein complaint is made that when it is considered necessary to introduce industrial subjects into schools, adequate provision is not made for supplying the necessary apparatus from some definite source, as too many inroads are made on the incomes of the teachers in supplying the children free for the most part with school requisites, and in keeping the schools furnished with maps and other appliances; and whether the necessary requisites on the Commissioners' school list under heading "For Use in Schools only and not for Sale to Pupils" should be supplied gratis to National schools on the recommendation of the inspector, as the teachers in many cases have to provide these at their own expense.
The resolution referred to does not appear to have been received. The question of making an equipment grant as an aid to local expenditure, with a view to encourage manual instruction under the new scheme, is receiving consideration by the Com- missioners. The proposal to provide schools with the ordinary apparatus for collective teaching free of cost is not one that can, at present, be favourably entertained.
Waterford Register — Disfranchisement For Non-Payment Of Poor Rates
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that 2,500 voters have been struck off the voters' list in Waterford City for nonpayment of poor rates since October last because the rate notices were not served until about April, and that the people concerned did nut know that they should be paid before 1st July; whether he can say who is responsible in this matter; and whether he will take steps to save the 2,500 people concerned from being disfranchised through no fault of their own.
I am informed that some 2,700 persons have been omitted from the voters' lists prepared by the town clerk for the borough of Waterford, by reason of non-payment of rates. The rate notices referred to in the question were posted in April as stated, and the notices calling attention to the necessity for payment of the rates required by Section 30 of the Registration Act, 1850, were duly kept published from the 5th June to 1st July. All statutory requirements were, I understand, complied with. There are no steps which it is competent to the Government to take in the matter.
Knockadufe (Co Mayo) Elect0ral Division—Rate On Occupiers
On behalf of the hon. Member for East Mayo, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the Knockaduff electoral division of Belmullet union, county Mayo, under the adjustment order of the Irish Local Government Board, a rate has been struck of £1 4s. in the £, which, under the provisions of the Irish Local Government Act, must be borne exclusively by the occupiers; is he aware that the rate so struck is made up of an accumulation of arrears extending over a number of years, and that more than two-thirds were the portion originally due by the landlords; and whether, having re- gard to the fact that since this rate was struck a large amount of the arrears have been collected and credited to the union at large, instead of the division of Knockaduff, which is still liable for the entire rate, and in view of the poverty of the district, he will use his influence with the Local Government Board to grant the request of a memorial forwarded by the ratepayers of the Knockaduff electoral division, who are eighty-three in number, with rents varying from £2 to £4 per annum, to relieve the occupiers of a greater liability for the payment of this rate than that to which they were originally subject, and to permit of the payment of this reduced sum by instalments.
It is not a fact that a rate of £1 4s. in the £ has been struck in the electoral division mentioned. The rate amounts to 9s. 11d. in the £ on land and 12s. 3d. in the £ on other hereditaments; but it must be remembered that no rate was struck in the county Mayo for the second half of the last financial year owing to the state of the accounts of the county council, and the whole rate was carried forward into the current year's estimate, which accordingly covered a period of eighteen months, The current rate includes 5s. 10d. in the £ under the adjustment order of the Board for the clearing off of old liabilities due by the division, but this special rate will be confined to the present levy alone, and the next half-year's rate will therefore be 4s. 1d. on land and 6s. 5d. on other hereditaments, and this, as already pointed out, is one-half of an eighteen months rate. For years past insufficient rates were struck by the guardians for the division, and they failed to complete the collection of such rates; it was accordingly inevitable that a balancing up of the account would find the division heavily in debt. The Board have received the memorial referred to, and have informed the county council, in reference to a proposal made by them on the subject, that they will offer no objection to the amount collected before the appointed day being credited to the division. There is no power to comply with the suggestion that the rate, or portion of it, be paid by instalments.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these people are under the impression that they are being taxed twice over for the same matter?
Coleraine Guardians—Purchases Of Medicines
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to-the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Coleraine Board of Guardians received any recoupment in respect of medicines purchased by them during the period immediately prior to and ending on 30th September, 1899; on what date did the Local Government Board approve of the appointment by the guardians of their analyst; was any recoupment made in respect of medicines purchased during the said period, but used before the appointment of the analyst, and was any recoupment made for the said period to the guardians in respect of any medicines which the analyst for any reason was unable to certify; and will he state whether it is within the power of the Local Government Board in exceptional circumstances, such as the late appointment of an analyst, to dispense with his certificate of analysis in a proper case.
Recoupment in respect of the full amount claimed as the cost of medicines, etc., for the half-year ended 30th September, 1899, was allowed to the board of guardians of the Coleraine Union. The analyst was appointed on the 26th August, 1899, and made his analysis of the drugs in use within the half-year, thereby enabling the guardians to obtain recoupment in respect of all medicines supplied during that period. The Local Government Board are not aware that the analyst was unable to certify in respect of any medicines obtained during the half-year. Samples of all the medicines supplied are taken and submitted to the analyst, and his certificates in the case of Coleraine Union were satisfactory. It is not within the-power of the Board to sanction recoupment until the guardians obtain a certificate from an analyst recognised by the Board, as required by Article 36, paragraph 4, of the Board's dispensary rules, dated 24th February, 1899.
Irish Postal Complaints
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Monaghan, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that inconvenience is caused to the people of Doagh, Corlea, Greaghlone, and neighbouring townlands, owing to the letters for that district being sent viâ Shercock, instead of from Carrickmacross as heretofore; whether he is aware that the route from Carrickmacross to Greaghlone was established upon the guarantee of Mr. Francis Lambe, which cost him £6 per annum for some years; whether he will restore the delivery of letters direct from Carrickmacross to Greaghlone which worked so well and conveniently to the people of the neighbourhood; whether he is aware that the new messenger from the Shercock route refused to deliver letters to Mr. Patrick Murray Doagh and Mr. Owen Lambe, and if he can state what steps he intends to take in reference to this postman; and whether he will refund the money paid by Mr. F. Lambe in establishing this postman's route from Carrickmacross to Greaghlone.
It appears that some inconvenience has been caused to the inhabitants of the townlands referred to by the hon. Member, owing to letters for the district being sent for a time via Shercock, instead of from Carrickmacross as formerly. The post from Carrickmacross was extended to Greaghlone in February, 1891, under a guarantee of £5 4s. 4d. a year from Mr. Francis Lambe, but the guarantee was dispensed with in June, 1892, when the service 'became self-supporting. The delivery of letters direct from Carrickmacross to Greaghlone has now been restored. Some letters for Mr. Patrick Murray and Mr. Owen Lambe were not sent out for delivery, because arrangements for extending the free delivery to their houses had not then been completed; but a delivery on three days a week has now been established. The Postmaster General does not see any reason for refunding to Mr. F. Lambe the money paid by him under guarantee.
On behalf of the hon. Member for South Monaghan, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that confusion exists in the district of Doagh and Greaghlone owing to the changes made in the delivery of letters; whether he is aware that no postman admits these and several other townlands as being in his radius; whether he is aware that a letter was posted on 16th July in Middlesbrough for Mr. Patrick Connors, Doagh, Carrickmacross, which letter if sent by the usual route via Carrickmacross and Greaghlone would have been delivered on 17th July, but was not delivered until 24th July, and that several letters posted in Carrickmacross for Mr. Owen Lambe, Doagh, did not reach him for almost a week, although posted within a couple of miles of his house; and whether he will put a stop to the present confusion in letter delivery by arranging for a messenger direct to Greaghlone from Carrickmacross, as was the case since 1892.
The Postmaster General regrets that there has been some confusion in the district of Doagh and Greaghlone, near Carrickmacross, owing to a misunderstanding as to the new arrangements for delivering letters. It appears that the letters referred to by the hon. Member were sent to a local post office without proper instructions having been given for their delivery, and thus sustained delay. Serious notice will be taken of this irregularity, and instructions have now been given for the direct service from Carrickmacross to Greaghlone to be resumed.
Prevention Of Corruption Bill
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Prevention of Corruption Bill, introduced by the Lord Chief Justice, has passed through the House of Lords, and that the principle of the Bill has received the approval of the Association of Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom, of the Congress of the Co-operative Societies, and of numerous chambers of trade, trade associations, and trade protection societies throughout the country, Her Majesty's Government will consider the expediency of themselves introducing legislation, at an early opportunity, for the purpose of dealing with the evils against which the Bill is directed.
In answer to the right hon. Gentleman, I am bound to say that this Bill comes before us with very high credentials, but I can hardly commit myself to any promise of Government legislation without further con- sideration than I have been able to give to the matter.
Private Bill Legislation
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury what was the number of Private Bills relating to localities in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, respectively, introduced during the last session of Parliament.
I am informed that the figures arc—for England 213, for Scotland 34, for Ireland 14, and for Wales 30.
Business Of The House
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury in what order he proposes to take the business on Monday.
The first business will be the remaining stages of the Colonial Stock Bill and of the War Loan Bill; then we shall take the Lords Amendments, and then the Appropriation Bill.
I wish to call the attention of the First Lord of the Treasury to the order in which the Votes to be taken on Report of Supply have been placed on the Paper. I am aware that the Leader of the Opposition asked for some further opportunity for discussion on the Colonial Office Vote, and that is the Vote which is first put down on the Paper. It will, however, be more in accordance with the usage of the House if the Votes which wore "guillotined" in Committee are taken first on the Report stage. I asked the Loader of the Opposition whether he still desired that this Vote should be put down first, and my right hon. friend told me that he had no desire that it should be so.
The hon. Member must confine himself to something in the nature of a question.
I think the right hon. Gentleman understands my question. I believe the order could be changed even now on a motion by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury.
The hon. Member speaks not only for himself, but also, I understand, for the Leader of the Opposition.
I never do anything without the approval of my Leader.
As the Leader of the Opposition asked that the Colonial Office Vote should be put first, and I formally assented, I do not see how I can put it back in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling Burghs. Cannot some right hon. Gentleman opposite move it?
We cannot. It must lie done by the representative of the Government.
The natural course would have been to have followed the usual practice of taking Votes which have not been discussed. An hon. Member informs me that on the previous evening the Loader of the Opposition said that ho supposed the course which would be taken by the Government would be to put down the so-called guillotined Votes first.
Of course I am bound to accept that as the view of the Leader of the Opposition. It comes upon mo as a great surprise, because it will be remembered that he complained of the short discussion on the Colonial Office Vote, and asked me whether I could not give another opportunity for discussing it. Of course if he has now altered his opinion, and if he thinks the discussion on last Wednesday was sufficient, I should be glad to meet the wishes of the hon. Member. I gather the right hon. Gentleman is commissioned indirectly to state that.
I have not the permission of the Leader of the Opposition to express his opinion. I only expressed my own view, and stated what I have been told by an hon. Member.
This is rather a perplexing position in which we find ourselves in the unexpected absence of the Leader of the Opposition. The best thing is to let the Colonial Office Vote be taken sub silentio, and then we might get on to the other Votes.
Speaking only for myself——
Order, order ! The hon. Member has no right to speak for himself or for anybody else, as there is no question before the House. May I point out that the first Order of the Day, "Supply (25th July) Report," cannot be put into another place on the Paper except by the general consent of the House on a motion by the Government? To postpone it to another day would be contrary to the Sessional Order, which requires all outstanding Report of Supply to be disposed of to-day. Nothing can be done except to call it on, and then it may be disposed of as quickly as the House thinks fit.
Adjournment
Resolved, That this House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday next. — (Sir William Walrond.)
Post Office Sites Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to—
- Intermediate Education (Ireland) Bill,
- Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill,
- Elementary School Teachers' Superannuation (Isle of Man) Bill,
- Elementary School Teachers' Superannuation (Jersey) Bill,
- Expiring Laws Continuance Bill,
- Public Works Loans Bill, without amendment.
- Executors (Scotland) Bill,
- Lunacy Board (Scotland) (Salaries, etc.) Bill, with an Amendment.
- Elementary Education Bill,
- Companies Bill,
- Naval Reserve Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—
- Reserve Forces Bill [Lords],
- Volunteers Bill [Lords],
- Prohibition of Exportation of Arms Bill [Lords], without amendment.
Companies Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 324.]
New Bills
Tied Houses
Bill for the abolition of Tied Houses, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Broad-hurst, Sir John Brunner, Mr. Thomas Bayley, Mr. Herbert Lewis, and Mr. Hazell.
Tied Houses Bill
"For the abolition of Tied Houses," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 321.]
Land Registers (Scotland)
Bill to improve the system of registration of writs relating to heritable property in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by the Lord Advocate and Mr. Anstruther.
Land Registers (Scotland) Bill
"To improve the system of registration of writs relating to heritable property in Scotland," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Friday next, and to be printed. [Bill 322.]
Convocations
Bill to declare the law in regard to the reform of the Convocations of Canterbury and York, and to make provision for constituting Houses of Laymen in connection therewith; and for empowering the said Convocations and Houses of Laymen to sit together, ordered to be brought in by Sir Richard Jebb, Sir William Anson, Viscount Cranborne, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Hey wood Johnstone, Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Talbot, and Mr. Lucas-Shadwell.
Convocations Bill
"To declare the law in regard to the reform of the Convocations of Canterbury and York, and to make provision for constituting Houses of Laymen in connection therewith; and for empowering the said Convocations and Houses of Laymen to sit together," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 323.]
Supply 25Th July
Resolution reported:—
Civil Service Estimates, 1900–1901
Class Ii
"That a sum, not exceeding £32,250, lie granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including a Grant in aid of certain Expenses connected with Emigration."
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I rise for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to the subject of the administration of justice in the Protectorate of Sierra Leone, and I do so believing that the question is one which touches very nearly the reputation of this country. It therefore deserves the very careful consideration of Parliament. I hope I may be able to obtain from the Secretary for the Colonies some explanation and some assurance of a satisfactory character with respect to the matter I am now about to raise. I crave the indulgence of the House while I refer briefly to the debate which I raised last session on the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.* On that occasion I challenged not only the conduct of Governor Sir F. Cardew in regard to the administration of affairs generally in the Protectorate, but I challenged also the policy of the right lion. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary. Let me refer briefly to some of the facts on which I base my present remarks. In addition to our possession of the Crown Colony we have within quite recent years assumed a Protectorate over a very wide stretch of territory lying in the immediate hinterland of the colony. I take it that that Protectorate was assumed in order to check the encroachments of the French, which threatened to interfere with the trade of the colony. The French have no doubt proved, at any rate so far as West
Africa is concerned, very unneighbourly neighbours. But the assumption of the Protectorate led to several very important and grave results. In the first place it necessitated a large increase of the Frontier police; that entailed, of course, an increased expenditure, which in its turn necessitated the finding of new means for augmenting the revenues of the colony, which had already begun to show signs of serious decadence. In order to recoup the increased cost of the Frontier police force and certain reduplications of offices which had been instituted, Sir F. Cardew resolved on the imposition of a hut tax. I am not going into the merits of that; I only say that the imposition of the hut tax was followed almost immediately by a rising of the natives, accompanied by bootless massacre and the shedding of much innocent blood. It paralysed the entire trade of the colony and brought about a serious reduction of revenue. It has been freely said that the real cause of the rising was the imposition of the hut tax and the brutal mode in which it was collected. These accusations weighed so seriously with the right hon. Gentleman that he did a thing for which he deserves the highest credit —he sent the best man he could find to Sierra Leone as a Royal Commission to inquire into the truth of these allegations —he sent, in fact, Sir David Chalmers, a man of known ability, who had spent many years in the service of his Queen in that part of Africa. He, after a laborious inquiry, reported that the rising and its bloody sequelæ were, in point of fact, brought about by the imposition of the hut tax and the mode in which it was collected. In the course of the debate to which I have referred I commented on the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had had the Report of Sir David Chalmers in his hands since January, 1899 and that it was not until five months later—just before the Colonial Vote was taken—that it was presented to Members. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the Report of Sir David Chalmers contained grave accusations against Sir Frederick Cardew, and that he did not think it right and proper that these accusations should be published until Sir Frederick Cardew had an opportunity of making his reply. I find no fault with that statement. It seemed only fair that Sir Frederick Cardew should have an opportunity of making any statement he could in answer to the findings of Sir David Chalmers. But I confess that it was unfortunate that in his reply to me the right hon. Gentleman should have used the phrase "accusations" in connection with the Report of Sir David Chalmers. Sir David Chalmers made no accusations: he made a very laborious and minute inquiry in his capacity as Royal Commissioner, as a judicial officer, and he simply arrived at certain conclusions which were based upon the evidence brought before him. But the words used by the right hon. Gentleman certainly conveyed an imputation upon the impartiality of Sir David Chalmers that has naturally given very great pain to his; relatives who have survived that distinguished public servant, and to whom his memory is dear. I do not know that I could better bring that home to the House than by reading a short passage from a memoir which has been recently written by Lady Chalmers in vindication of her husband's memory. This is what she says—* See The parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxvi., page 100.
These are very simple words, but it seems to me that they are not without pathos. I cannot help thinking myself that the right hon. Gentleman used the words which he did use in the heat of reply, and without meaning to cast any imputation on the impartiality of Sir David Chalmers, and I am strengthened in that view by the fact that the very things which were referred to by the right hon. Gentleman as accusations brought by Sir David Chalmers were, in point of fact, part of the instructions given to Sir David Chalmers by the right hon. Gentleman himself in the reference made by him. If I am right in that conjecture, I can only express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take the opportunity of saying something which will assuage the pain that he has caused, and which was not at all deserved."Sir David Chalmers died on 5th August. Continuous work for several months in Sierra Leone at the worst season of the year, together with a return to this climate in the depth of winter, and the exertion of preparing his Report, without allowing himself a day for rest or relaxation, proved too great a tax on his constitution, already tried by the strain of many years of strenuous tropical service. He lived long enough to know how apparently fruitlessly he hail sacrificed his own ease and comfort, but was spared the knowledge of the painful reflection cast on his fairness and justice—qualities which he valued above all others, and which his whole previous official record had exemplified in a marked degree. On behalf of those whom he left, it is not too much to say that the depreciation of his work and the reflection cast on his memory served to deepen the sorrow of a great bereavement."
What were the words I used? Will the hon. Gentleman kindly repeat the exact words?
If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to Hansard he will find there that he used the words, "Sir David Chalmers in his Report had made accusations against public officials." The only public officials in question wore Sir Frederick Cardew and possibly the District Commissioners. The word "accusations" was not a proper word to use with reference to the findings of a judicial officer who was only coming to conclusions with reference to the evidence offered to him. Before I go further, there is one point on which we ought to have some explanation. Sir David Chalmers founded his Report upon a mass of evidence. The volume of that evidence fills over 600 pages, and these minutes of evidence were in the hands of the Colonial Secretary at the same time as the Report. But that evidence was not-furnished to the Members of this House until September, when Parliament was no longer in session, and, therefore, it was impossible for any hon. Member to form any sound judgment as to whether the Report of Sir David Chalmers or the reply of Sir Frederick Cardew was well founded or not. I think that was an injustice to the work done by Sir David Chalmers, and it is a matter on which we are entitled to ask for some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. I pass from these matters—which, after all, are in a sense personal, although) I do not know that it is necessary for me to apologise for them; and it seems to me that justice should be rendered to individuals as well as to nations, and that if charges are made which reflect on an officer who has been appointed by a Minister of State, these charges should either be explained or defended or withdrawn—I pass from these matters gladly to that which is the object which I had more immediately in view, namely, to a consideration of the mode in which justice is now being administered under the sovereignty of Her Majesty the Queen in this Protectorate, and to the powers and qualifications of the persons who are appointed to dispense that justice. To those who cherish the idea, and in some respects justly cherish the idea, that wherever the arms or the power of this country go they carry with them a strict and impartial law, and the strict and impartial administration of justice, I confess that the reading of that evidence compiled so laboriously by Sir David Chalmers is nothing but shocking. What do we find? In this vast Protectorate immediately behind the colony of Sierra Leone, and over which are scattered some millions of natives, justice is administered by District Commissioners, who have powers of life and death, and from whoso decision there is no appeal, who have not I the most rudimentary notion of the laws they are called upon to administer. Well, these are grave charges to make, but I think a short reference to the evidence compiled by Sir David Chalmers will more than substantiate them. I may, with the indulgence of the House, read I some extracts from that evidence. Captain Sharpe, who is by way of being a very superior District Commissioner in the Hinterland, a man to whom is committed the power of life and death, says—
Then the Royal Commissioner asks him with regard to some points in the Protectorate Ordinances. The Royal Commissioner says—"I never knew there was imprisonment without hard labour. I never heard it questioned by the Attorney General. I fancy [he says] I can remember the expression somewhere 'with or without hard labour.'"
"Then I take it that your view of the Ordinance is that, notwithstanding the provision of Section 48, which enacts that 'if any person liable to pay tax refuses to pay, levy on his goods shall follow; nevertheless, by giving an order to the same person that he shall pay, an offence can be raised up which is punishable under Section 67'?
"Captain SHARPE: I read this Ordinance that where a man refuses to pay I can take my choice of these two sections.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: I may draw your attention to the fact that Section 68 does not deal with the subject of tax, whereas Section 48 particularly deals with payment of tax. I am speaking of the chiefs.
"Captain SHARPE: I should read it that verbal refusing was resisting.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Section 68 does not bear any relation to the payment of tax?
"Captain SHARPE: I should say that in asking for the tax I was exercising my duty, and by refusing to pay he was resisting me in the exercise of my duty.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Then I would like to be clear upon the point with regard to these five chiefs: Was each one of them convicted of the three offences that are named in the sheet, namely—(1) Inciting others by threats to defy the law (offence under Section 67); (2) Refusing to collect the hut tax due (offence under Section 68); (3) Overawing by force a public officer in the execution of his duty (Section 68)?
"Captain SHARPE: I can only go by the sheet. I cannot trust my memory. It is apparently so by the sheet.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Upon these convictions the chiefs were apprehended and sent to Freetown?
Then the Royal Commissioner raises another point. He says—"Captain SHARPE: Yes."
"Then I show you this conviction that you sent down as warrant for imprisoning them; this is not in your hand writing?
"Captain SHARPE: No; it is my clerk's.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Just read it. You see that this is not the same charge as on the sheet?
"Captain SHARPE: I did not understand it was to be the verbatim charge.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER; You see, on comparing this statement of offence with the other, they are different?
"Captain SHARPE: It is certainly different verbally.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: I should say more; it is quite a different offence.
Well, that is one instance. I take a shorter passage from the evidence of Sub-Inspector Crowther. He says—"Captain SHARPE: Would it not have the same meaning legally?"
"I was present when Captain Sharpe made the order for the arrest of the live chiefs to be sent to Freetown.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Was any charge made against Bokari Bamp to which he was asked to plead?
"Sub-Inspector CROWTHER: Captain Sharpe simply told him, 'You are charged with refusing to pay the hut tax.'
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Was any charge made against Santigi Kearch?
"Sub-Inspector CROWTHER: He was charged with Ansinnani Bali with aiding the chief not to pay.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER; Was Bokari Bamp asked for his defence?
"Sub-Inspector CROWTHER: I do not remember that he was asked.…Captain Sharpe asked Bokari Bamp after he had charged them, 'What have you to say?' He said, 'I do not say I will not pay, I will say I want to consult the other chiefs.' Then he asked the four others, and they said they did not aid him not to pay.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Thereupon did anything more take place, or were they at once sent to the canoe?
"Sub-Inspector CROWTHER: They were sent to the canoe.
"The ROYAL COMMISSIONER: Nothing more took place?
I pass to another—Captain Moore. In answer to the question of the Royal Commissioner, "Do you remember whether you took part in the hearing of the charge against Pa Membana on 21st January?" he said—"Sub-Inspector CROWTHER: No, they were sent to the boat in handcuffs with a police escort."
Pa Membana's offence was that he refused to pay the hut tax on the ground that he had no power, being subordinate to Bai Kompah, and that the people were too poor. I have drawn attention to those three cases to show how incompetent the District Commissioners are to deal with the law, because in the case of Captain Moore you have a man who has actually treated these independent chiefs as if they were felons, causing them to undergo the lash, a thing he has no right or power to do, instead of treating them as civil offenders on whose goods a levy might have been made. There is still another matter in this connection which has in my opinion a serious bearing on the whole matter, and that is that these judicial officers are at the same time captains and chiefs of the Frontier police force. What is the character of this Frontier police force? It is composed entirely of natives drawn from Sierra Leone—that is from the Protectorate— and in many cases they have been the slaves of those very chiefs, and these very men who are charged with the protection of the Protectorate and the care of property within it have committed all sorts of crimes from the plundering of natives and brutally illtreating them to the ravishment of women. These offences are not' committed against ordinary natives only, but against the wives and daughters of chiefs who are laid hold of. I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary if ho imagines this state of affairs can go on long without serious consequences. How do we know how much this treatment has had to do with the rising in Ashanti, which is a neighbouring country? The right hon. Gentleman has admitted to-day that he does not know the cause of the rising, and it is not time yet to inquire; but he knows perfectly well that news travels quickly from native to native across vast districts, and I can imagine—it may be wrong, and the one case may have nothing to do with the other—I can imagine that nothing would be more likely to induce the natives in the neighbouring country to seize a convenient opportunity to rise than the treatment which independent chiefs received from the District Commissioners, and the fact that they were drum-majored by the Frontier police composed largely of men who had a short time before been the servants and slaves of those very chiefs. These are matters, it may be said, the Colonial Secretary could not possibly know, and personally I admit that recently his whole time must have been largely aborbed in matters of much greater-importance and of much more absorbing interest; but it must be remembered that these things have been going on for some years. Indeed, before the South African matter became acute at all, these things were taking place, and it must be recollected that the Report of Sir David Chalmers and the evidence on which I have founded all the statements I have made were in the hands of the Colonial Secretary at the beginning of 1899. There is also this to be said, that the Colonial Secretary has received a memorandum not only from the Traders' Association, but also from the Chamber of Commerce in Sierra Leone, and a minute from the Bar Association in Sierra Leone. Nearly all these memoranda agree in certain recommendations. There are at least four matters on which they agree. One is that the public mind is dissatisfied, and I cannot wonder at it when the administration of justice is thus conducted in the Protectorate. The second is that the power of capital punishment, vested in these District Commissioners, should be abolished. The third is that there should be the right of appeal to the Supreme Court. I think I have already said that there is no right of appeal from the District Commissioners at present, and that the only check even in the case of the capital penalty is that before being carried out the sentence must be submitted to the governor, who is Sir Frederick Cardew. The fourth matter on which they are agreed is that natives should be permitted to employ the services of counsel or solicitor at least in all criminal or quasi-criminal cases. To these recommendations there should be added that no officer of the Frontier police force should be a District Commissioner, and secondly that no one should be appointed to the office of Commissioner who has not at least some knowledge of the law which he is called upon to administer. These recommendations I very earnestly commend to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. I think they are worthy of his attention, and it is in regard to them that I seek, if possible, to obtain some assurance that at least they will receive his serious consideration."I tried him and sentenced him—a year's hard labour and thirty-six lashes. I wan sorry the Governor would not allow me to inflict the lashes."
I fully admit that the province of criticising and forming a judgment upon the administration of Sierra Leone is one of no ordinary difficulty. The subject is extremely complicated and embarrassing. On the one hand you have the careful and exhaustive Report of Sir David Chalmers, a man whose competency no one questions, a man whom the right hon. Gentleman himself selected on account of his judiciousness, long experience, and knowledge, and a man, further, who approached the consideration of the question with no sort of bias on the one side or on the other. He was a retired official, and was not in any way responsible for the imposition of the tax or the method of administration adopted in the collection of it. His impartiality and competency were beyond all question, and I do not understand that the right hon. Gentleman, either in his speech at this time last year, or in the letter of 7th July, 1899, cast any sort of reflection on the impartiality and ability of Sir David Chalmers. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman, if he used the word "accusation," which appears in the Hansard report, did not for a moment mean to cast any reflection whatever on the perfect impartiality, ability, and painstaking anxiety with which the Commissioner had discharged his task. It was certainly an unusual step to take—I do not say unprecedented—to pass by the main recommendations of the Royal Commissioner, which were, in the first place, to cease altogether the collection of the tax, and in the second place, to introduce radical changes in the Protectorate. The right hon. Gentleman was confronted with this difficulty: that, so far as I can judge, there was no practical alterna- tive for him as a means of raising the revenue necessary for the purpose of keeping down the slave trade and slave raiding. If slave raiding was to be effectually controlled and checked in the Protectorate the Frontier police was undoubtedly necessary, and required to be paid. The natural requirements of the Protectorate demanded the imposition of some tax, and so far as I can judge from the Report of Sir David Chalmers, the alternative method he suggested would not have been adequate to raise the necessary fund to pay the Frontier police. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman had before him the very detailed observations of the administrator of the Protectorate—an officer, no doubt, who approached the consideration of the question with a certain bias. I think the right hon. Gentleman will concede that that was so. But at the same time I will frankly say that I have read with care his observations on the Report, and that they appear to me to be couched in language of studied moderation. I do not hesitate to say that his criticism is not reckless or ill-considered, but careful, minute, and acute criticism of the conclusions arrived at by Sir David Chalmers. No doubt in questions of this kind much depends upon disputed questions of fact. Great value is always attached to the opinion of the man who has seen and heard the witnesses give their evidence. The right hon. Gentleman will, I think, agree with me that in so far as the question before him depended upon the determination of disputed facts, he was bound to place greater reliance on the conclusion arrived at by the Royal Commissioner than that of Sir Frederick Cardew, who, I think, was not examined as a witness himself, and was, not present while the evidence was being taken. But while I make that observation, I am not one of those who attach undue importance—some, I think, do—to the opinion of the man who has seen and heard the witnesses, especially where the solution of the question which the Secretary of State had to determine depended to a large extent upon matter of opinion and inference drawn from the facts, and not upon the determination whether this fact was proved or that fact not proved; because as I read both the Report and observations, the divergence between Sir Frederick Cardew and Sir David Chalmers turned on the conclusions to be deduced from documents. I did not understand the right hon. Gentleman to come to the conclusion that Sir David Chalmers' findings in fact had been successfully impeached, but rather the inference he drew was that they had been successfully challenged by Sir Frederick Cardew. The right hon. Gentleman frankly admitted that this was a question on which two honest and impartial men might well hold entirely different opinions, and that being so, I cannot myself conceive that any administrator placed in the position the right hon. Gentleman is in to-day could well have come to a different conclusion from that at which he arrived, even although in coming to that conclusion he had to pass by some of the recommendations of the Royal Commissioner he himself had appointed. The criticisms that have been passed by my hon. friend who preceded me in this debate upon the competency and the character of the resident District Commissioners are certainly grave and serious. But, after all, I suppose the Colonial Department, like other Departments, must depend upon the implements placed in its hands for carrying out the work it has to do, and you cannot expect to get men thoroughly versed in difficult legal problems, and perfect in the exhibition of tact and discretion in the performance of undoubtedly delicate duties, unless indeed you pay salaries which would involve another tax far beyond the ability of the natives to pay. In short, the right hon. Gentleman must do the best he can with his District Commissioners, and it would be difficult, I think, for him with Sir Frederick Cardew's opinion before him with regard to these men, considering that he has had large experience, to discard the recommendation of that gentleman with regard to the duties to be imposed on the District Commissioners. Here is what is said by Sir Frederick Cardew in his observations on the Royal Commissioner's Report—
No Department in Downing Street can set aside an opinion like that from the man on the spot. We must do our best with the materials at hand, and, with the recommendations the right hon. Gentleman has made cautioning these District Commissioners to be as careful and discreet in the administration as possible, the hut tax must go on and be collected; and one is glad to see that recent experience since the rebellion was quelled has tended to show that the hut tax has not been met with so much disfavour by the natives as was at first anticipated. Now that they understand it better, and the motives for its collection, and also the advantages that will accrue to them from the imposition of the tax for the payment of the Frontier police, who, at all events, preserve the peace, and who have caused inter-tribal feuds to cease, they will pay with as much alacrity as any man ever paid a direct tax imposed on him, I have risen mainly for the purpose of inviting the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to certain strictures which are passed on his letter of 7th July, 1899, casting reflection, I think, on the impartiality and competency, the care and anxiety, with which the Royal Commissioner did his work. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, perhaps used the expression "accusation" without intending thereby to suggest any serious imputation on Sir David Chalmers."With respect to the District Commissioners all are English gentlemen and men of honour; they all possess considerable intelligence, education, and experience, and have unrivalled opportunities, next to the missionaries, of studying the natives from all points of view; they are in close touch with them, are constantly hearing their palavers and disputes, and besides get much information of their customs and habits through the police and native officials."
It is a mere statement of fact.
I hope that in what I am now going to say the right hon. Gentleman will not see any desire to suggest that he or the Colonial Department really intended seriously to question Sir David Chalmers' impartiality and competency, but I readily admit that it was impossible for the right hon. Gentleman or even probably for those in his Department to master the immense mass of evidence we have before us, extending to close on 700 pages. I really do not think that it would have benefited the right hon. Gentleman in considering the question if he had perused that enormous mass of evidence. I have perused a considerable part of it. I think part of it is very unintelligible, and other portions have no direct relation to the important questions raised and referred to in the strictures which have been made, and which, as I think, are not sustained either by Sir David Chalmers' Report or the evidence which accompanied it. The Colonial Office, I take it, rather fell into error from failure to minutely examine the evidence and the appendices than from any desire to impute want of care and competency on the part of the Royal Commissioner. The right hon. Gentleman will find on pages 166 and 167 of the Blue-book the strictures to which I refer. I think they are four in number. I will take them in their order as they occur. In the first place, dealing with the important conclusion come to by Sir David Chalmers that "the arrests and imprisonments" of those who refused to pay the hut tax "were not legal under the law of the Protectorate Ordinance or any other law under which the District Commissioner was authorised to act," the right hon. Gentleman says that Sir David Chalmers in expressing that view was differing from the acting Attorney General. In his letter the right hon. Gentleman says—
This seems a small matter, but at the same time, when you consider that the Report was made by a trained lawyer, a man who was naturally to be expected to investigate with care and minuteness the legal aspects of the question with which he was called upon to deal, it does suggest some lack of care on the part of Sir David Chalmers, if not a lack of impartiality, when the right hon. Gentleman says he omitted to quote those sections on which the Attorney General relied. If you turn to Sir David Chalmers' Report, page 30, you will find that immediately after expressing his own opinion in paragraph 71, to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, he goes on to state the opinion of the Attorney General. When I turn to one of the appendices I find quoted in full the opinion of the Attorney General, and following that opinion there is a verbatim citation of the sections of the Ordinance on which the Attorney General relies; so that it was not right to say that Sir David Chalmers omitted to quote the sections. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman will see that it was scarcely a fair representation to say that this most painstaking man had omitted to quote the sections upon which an opposite legal opinion to his own was based. I do not for a moment seek to offer any opinion whether Sir David Chalmers or the Attorney General was right. I am inclined certainly to the view that Sir David Chalmers was right. Whether that be so or not, I think I have shown that the Royal Commissioner was in this respect, as I think in all other respects, scrupulously fair to his opponent. The next stricture passed on the Report is a graver one. The right hon. Gentleman in his letter, page 167, says—"As to the arrests, Sir F. Cardew has pointed out that the acting Attorney General advised that they were legal, and that Sir D. Chalmers, while quoting certain sections of the Ordinance, has omitted to quote those on which the acting Attorney General relied."
There are two statements in that paragraph which, I think, cast a very grave reflection on Sir David Chalmers in connection with the performance of his duty. In the first place it is said that he suggests a very grave charge against Captain Moore, and in the second place it is said he did not give Captain Moore an opportunity of repudiating the charge. I answer this stricture thus. In the first place I say that the Royal Commissioner suggested no charge against Captain Moore, but, on the contrary, stated distinctly that although the charge had been made he did not believe it. If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to Sir David Chalmers' Report, page 45, he will find words to bear out what I have said. Dealing with the question of the enforcement of the tax Sir David Chalmers says—"A very grave charge is suggested against Captain Moore, in paragraph 107 of the Report. The Royal Commissioner refers to a statement by a native witness that this officer killed a youth carrying a cutlass, although he adds that he does not lay stress on it; but when he examined Captain Moore, which was done after the native evidence referred to had been given, he put no question to him on the subject, and did not even mention that evidence to him of which Captain Moore himself at that time had no knowledge. I regret that Sir David Chalmers omitted to give this officer the opportunity which he has since had of denying the charge and thereby satisfactorily exculpating himself from a most serious imputation, it will be seen on reference to Sir F. Cardew's observations (paragraph 48), that Captain Moore indignantly repudiates the charges and states that the evidence was absolutely untrue in every particular."
I submit it was not fair in the letter of 7th July to say that Sir David Chalmers suggested a grave charge against Captain Moore when he distinctly says in his report—"A youth, carrying a cutlass or sword, was met by a party of police, who told him to give up his weapon, and tried to take it from him. He did not surrender it, and was endeavouring to turn away, when two of the police fired, and he was killed. The matter is related very circumstantially by Yan Kuba, Headman of Mabobo, where the occurrence took place, who had no conceivable motive for inventing the statement; also by Kanray, who, Yan Kuba says, was present as an eye-witness, and is corroborated by Boroh Cabendah. Murano Carimo also made a corroborative statement, but I do not consider his statement that the shot was fired by Captain Moore correct, which is not in accordance with other evidence, and I do not lay stress on it. On the whole of the evidence, although, of course, it has not been tested as judicial evidence would be, I am satisfied the youth was killed by the police, and in the manner stated."
That is a matter of which those who are jealous of the reputation of Sir David Chalmers very justly complain. I understand that that is one of the charges which induced the right hon. Gentleman to send the Report to Sir Frederick Cardew for his observations. I make no complaint of that, but what I do say is that Sir David Chalmers made no accusation against Captain Moore. I readily admit that the evidence with regard to the shooting of the lad was extremely unsatisfactory, and was subjected to very acute criticism—with the whole of which I entirely agree—by Sir Frederick Cardew. But when that evidence was taken Sir David Chalmers did not believe the charge. If that is so, of course the second stricture passed—that he did not give Captain Moore an opportunity of repudiating the charge—falls to the ground. Here again the letter somewhat errs. At page 471 of the notes of the evidence the right hon. Gentleman will find that Captain Moore was asked this very question—"I do not consider his statement that the shot was fired by Captain Moore was correct, which is not in accordance with our evidence.
"Do you remember a man being shot at Makaia?—A. No. The only occasion on which a shot was fired was in the Kwaia country.
"Q. Then I take it you were not aware of a man being shot at Mabobo?—A. There was not a single shot fired the whole time except in the Kwaia country.
"Q. Do you remember being at Mabobo?— A.I have heard the name, but cannot fix anything.
"Q.You are not aware of such an incident as a man being shot?—A.No.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that those questions were directed to elicit from Captain Moore any contradiction which he had to give of the incident spoken to by the other witness. Captain Moore therefore was not only absolved by the Commissioners from all blame in the matter, but was actually offered an opportunity of denying the charge. I quite agree with an observation made by the right hon. Gentleman in a subsequent paragraph, that Sir David Chalmers was under a great disadvantage in the fact that he had not the benefit of cross-examination by counsel or agent representing the officers against whom the charges were made. That was certainly a disadvantage, because undoubtedly when you are testing the credibility of a witness it is an immense advantage to have him under cross-examination. Notwithstanding that disadvantage, I think the Commissioner did his duty admirably and nobly. These are just questions that anyone representing Captain Moore would necessarily have put if he knew his business, and that the Commissioner should have remembered to put them some days after the charge was made, is a striking testimony to the scrupulous care and fidelity with which he discharged his duty. The next stricture passed upon the Commissioner is with regard to a remark he made relating to another District Commissioner. The right hon. Gentleman says in his letter—"Q. Anything about a man not giving up a cutlass?—A. Nothing of the sort during the whole of my command."
The House will see at once that the stricture amounted to this—that whereas it had been said by a subordinate that Capt. Sharpe had struck a man on the head with a stick, the District Commissioner, when in the witness-box, was not asked specifically to contradict that statement. I can give two answers which show that the Commissioner here as in every other particular discharged his duty with scrupulous fidelity. At page 219 the following question to Capt. Sharpe will be found—"There is a reference in the Report to evidence that Capt. Sharpe wounded a native by striking him on the head with a stick. Sir D. Chalmers adds that Capt. Sharpe did not deny this, although not admitting it in terms. Capt. Sharpe, I observe, gave evidence that the man was very roughly handled, but that he was not wounded in any way. The evidence referred to by Sir D. Chalmers was given subsequently, and Capt. Sharpe was given no opportunity of denying it."
His subordinate, some days later, was asked this question (page 461)—"Last time you were here you described an endeavour made to arrest Bai Bureh; there was a man you got hold of and brought away for a short distance; it is said that you struck him on the head and that his head was broken?—A. He was certainly very roughly handled, but he was not wounded in any way."
He gives a long account of the force, and then he refers to the incident in these words—"What force had he [the Commander-in-Chief] with him?"
This was a mere incident in the course of an episode, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that if this inquiry had been conducted with strict regard to the rules of legal evidence as understood in our own courts it would not have been thought necessary to recall Captain Sharpe for the purpose of saying whether or not he had a stick in his hand and struck this man on the head. If it had been the question at issue, it might have been necessary, but whether or not, Captain Sharpe does not specifically deny the thing; he says the man was very roughly handled. It was surely unnecessary to recall Captain Sharpe to contradict such a trivial statement. I must apologise to the House for detaining them, but really the feelings of Sir D. Chalmers' friends and relations are very keen upon this subject. My last stricture is in reference to another charge against a District Commissioner. The right hon. Gentleman says in his letter (paragraph 26)—"I saw the war-boys coming, and told the police to fix bayonets. The man shouted out, and Captain Sharpe hit him over the head with a short stick which had a knob of lead or iron at one end. One of the Frontiers took the sword from the man. At that time the man was bleeding."
The Royal Commissioner did not say that Captain Carr had answered any question incorrectly. What he said was that he did not tell him that arrests were required to be made in order to secure payment of the tax. It is right to observe, and I think the right hon. Gentleman has failed to notice in this paragraph, that Captain Carr was going home on leave of absence, and therefore he was examined at the very commencement of the inquiry, within four days of Sir David Chalmers' landing at Sierra Leone, before the Commissioner had prepared that elaborate list of questions which he submitted to witnesses later on, and before he had made himself thoroughly conversant with all the incidents connected with the insurrection. According to page 12, Captain Carr was asked a question which I am bound to say, if he had been a frank and willing witness, would necessarily have elicited any evidence he had to give relevant to the difficulties in the way of collecting the tax. He was asked how much was collected, and ho goes on about the rising. I agree he did not make any incorrect statement, but, after all, is not that putting the duty of an officer too low, especially when it is remembered that in the Commission on which Sir David Chalmers went out to Sierra Leone all officers are enjoined "to be aiding and assisting" him in executing his commission. It was not much to expect that an experienced District Commissioner, who knew it was difficult to collect the tax, and who had had to arrest and imprison men on that account, should have volunteered that information without it being extracted from him. These are the main strictures passed upon the conduct of Sir David Chalmers in this inquiry. They probably do not seem to the House to be very serious, but they were thought sufficiently serious by the Colonial Secretary to warrant him in submitting the Report to Sir Frederick Cardew for his observations. I repeat I make no complaint of that, but I do think the Colonial Secretary will agree that I have successfully shown that the strictures passed upon this able and faithful public servant are not warranted, when one closely examines the Report and the evidence and appendices by which it is accompanied. I absolve the right hon. Gentleman from any intention to cast imputations upon the impartiality or the accuracy of the findings of the Royal Commission, and if he agrees with me that I have offered these criticisms with moderation and with accuracy, I hope he will give some expression of his views to the House with regard to the services of Sir David Chalmers which will be satisfactory to those who regarded him as a man of scrupulous integrity. Nothing more is asked for, and nothing less should be given to the memory of a man who literally gave his life to the performance of his duty, and whose unimpeachable integrity and fidelity to the Queen and his country no one has ever attempted to question."Sir D. Chalmers states that he had collected information as to the arrests in the Bandajuma district from other witnesses, Captain Carr having forgotten, or not deemed it requisite in giving his evidence, to communicate the information, or indeed to make it known to me, that there had been any difficulty in the tax collection in his district. It is not alleged that Captain Carr answered any question incorrectly, and I observe that he was not asked about the arrests, either specifically or under a general question, for the Royal Commissioner passed directly from the amount collected before the rising to the rising; but to other witnesses the matter of the arrests was put specifically."
said ho thought his hon. friends behind him were quite justified in calling attention to the case of Sierra Leone and Sir David Chalmers, for it had given them an opportunity of drawing attention to a matter which had been crowded out by the more important questions in regard to South Africa. This was all the more necessary because certain reflections had been cast upon this old public servant both in speeches and in Reports. He thought the hon. Gentlemen behind him who had spoken on this subject had done credit not only to themselves but also to Sir David Chalmers by the manner in which they had drawn attention to this matter. The right hon. Gentleman when this matter was discussed last year on the Appropriation Bill was fully entitled to say that he was not bound as Secretary of State for the Colonies to accept the conclusions arrived at by the Commission. He had to judge of the matter as placed before him, and, of course, he made himself responsible for the conclusions to which he came. He could not agree with the pessimistic view which his hon. friend took of the present position as to the results of the hut tax, but what he wanted was to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could give them some further information than that which they had received in the Blue-books in regard to the present position of the Protectorate of Sierra Leone. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell them what position this hut tax stood in at the present moment? He should be glad to know whether the hut tax was being collected peacefully and properly, or whether it was being paid under the fear of further reprisals. When the late Government were in office they did not think it was expedient to impose that tax, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman, looking back at the position, would confess that perhaps the tax was imposed somewhat prematurely and hastily. The Report of Sir Frederick Cardew himself showed that there was very great danger of the imposition of such a tax leading to some native difficulties. From the evidence produced before Sir David Chalmers it must be confessed that this tax was imposed somewhat roughly and brutally, and he was afraid also with some illegality, and that some of these natives and chiefs were not treated in a way which was likely to lead to the peaceful collection of such an imposition as the new hut tax. He was afraid that this had produced a good deal of the difficulties which had arisen in the Protectorate. That result was shown in the right hon. Gentleman's speech last year, when he stated that regulations had been issued in regard to the collection of the hut tax which would get rid of the abuses in regard to its collection. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman would say that the hut tax was not the sole cause of the difficulties which had arisen in the Protectorate of Sierra Leone, and that those difficulties were due to some fear on the part of the natives that they would suffer from civilisation being brought into their midst. But at any rate, if the hut tax was not the sole cause, it could not be denied that it was a very serious contributory cause to the rising, and what they wanted to know at the present moment was whether the state of affairs in Sierra Leone was at present fairly satisfactory, and whether the right, hon. Gentleman proposed to take any measures or make any alteration in the hut tax itself or in the mode of its collection. The remarks which had been made in reference to the position of these District Commissioners struck him as being matters of considerable gravity. What was the statement made in regard to that matter? He understood that the Protectorate had been divided into different districts with Commissioners at their head. These Commissioners were men who had not had any legal training or opportunities of obtaining legal information, and these men were practically put there with the power of life and death in their hands. One of the passages read by the hon. Member for Wick was very significant, because it showed that one of these District Commissioners was, put there not only as the administrator but practically as a judge, and it was admitted that he was not aware that, in certain circumstances, he could inflict punishment with or without hard labour. He thought it was a very strong measure that these Commissioners without any legal training should have this enormous power of life and death. They had the power of sentencing a man to death and carrying out that sentence without any right to appeal. He knew that the matter went to the Governor for confirmation, but there was no right of appeal on the part of the man concerned. That seemed to him to be a very strong power to give to those District Commissioners. His view of the state of affairs in the Protectorate was that the pace had been rather too fast. In regard to the hinterland of our West African colonies there had been too rapid action, and it had caused fear on the part of the native chiefs that they were going to be absorbed in a way to which they objected. He thought the House was entitled to some information in regard to the present position, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give a satisfactory account of the situation. He hoped also that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to tell them something in regard to the Ashanti war. Ho did not wish to say much about that war, because, at the present moment, they were denied information. All they knew was that the Governor had been besieged, and that a gallant rescue had been made by Colonel Willcocks. They also knew that an expeditionary force was being sent out which would cost some £250,000. It should be remembered that this was the third time that a punitive expedition had been sent into that country, and he thought the House was entitled to know how it was that we had been placed in this position a third time. Apparently the whole matter seemed to be, like the Chinese question, a sort of bolt from the blue. Something suddenly had occurred to cause this rising, and they wanted to know from the right lion. Gentleman if he had any information in regard to it, what was the real contributory cause of this rising, or whether it was, like some other events, in the nature of an "inevitable war" for which no inadequate provision had been made. They were too much accustomed to these little incidents to pay very much atten- tion to them at the present moment, because their attention was centred else-where, and public attention had not been directed to these occurrences so much. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give them some assurance that, as soon as the expedition was over and the necessary punishment had been inflicted, some proper inquiry would be held into the whole matter, so that they might know how it was that this rising had suddenly sprung upon them, and how they could prevent such a thing occurring again in the future. He was afraid this might be something in the nature of the Sierra Leone question over again. As far as one could judge, the position in Ashanti appeared to be similar to that in Sierra Leone. He was not saying whether it was right or wrong, but he thought a contributory cause of the outbreak in Ashanti was that when Ashanti was taken over the chiefs were given to understand that the independence of the country would be maintained under British control. But that pledge had not been kept. The tribes were being gradually broken up, and the chiefs were being treated in a manner they never anticipated. He hoped the right lion. Gentleman would give the Committee an assurance that a proper inquiry into the matter would be held, in order that such unfortunate occurrences, which were only too frequent and which were very serious from every point of view, might be avoided in the outlying districts of the Empire. There was one other question on which he desired information if the right hon. Gentleman would kindly give it, and that was the question of Jamaica. Two questions had arisen— one political, the other financial. With regard to the political question he understood it was practically settled. It was one of those cases in which, under the hybrid constitution which existed in many of the Crown Colonies, the unofficial members without any responsibility came into conflict with the official members with all the responsibility. He did not think that such a constitution could ever work properly. He did not blame the Secretary of State because, in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, certain things had to be done under certain circumstances over-riding the action of the unofficial members; but what was done in Jamaica was done not only in a very high-handed manner, but he was not sure whether it was done in a legal manner. With regard to the financial position in Jamaica, he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he was in a position to give a fairly satisfactory account of the finances of the island. The Committee would remember that last year a sum of nearly half a million was voted for the benefit of Jamaica, which was not for public works or anything of that kind, but in order to meet deficiencies in the ordinary revenue and deficiencies in regard to the interest on the railway which the island had to take over. He was afraid there was not much security for that loan. He did not complain of its having been advanced under the circumstances, but, looking at the present position of the island and to the fact that the island had to take over a mismanaged and unfortunate railway, it did not look as if much of the loan would be paid back. He desired information on three points— the financial position of Jamaica, the present position of Sierra Leone, and what steps were to be taken to restore permanent peace in Ashanti.
said his attention had been called to a matter which appeared to be of some importance, though the information furnished him was not very perfect. It had reference to the compensation which was to be awarded to colonists in Natal whose property had been destroyed or injured by the Boers. He understood that the Boers having entirely evacuated the colony, the work of compensation had been taken in hand by the Colonial Government. An allegation had been made to him that in considering the question of compensation a distinction had been drawn between private individuals and joint stock companies, and it was said that injury to the property of a company could not be considered. He had received a letter with reference to a coal mining company near Newcastle, which stated that instructions were issued that the claim of the company to compensation should not be considered. Supposing there were two collieries working side by side, one owned by a private individual and the other by a company, the former would be entitled to compensation, whereas it would appear the latter would not. A hardship would be done in such a case, and as the matter was exciting great interest in the colony he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to assure the Committee that no such arbitrary distinction would be made.
With regard to the disturbance in Ashanti it has been a very serious rising. The Governor and his staff and several ladies were in the greatest possible danger for some period of time. I desire to join in the congratulations which have been offered to Colonel Willcocks on his remarkable display of military skill, perseverance, and general high, soldier like qualities. At the same time it should not be forgotten that Governor Hodgson also displayed very high qualities. The point to which I wish to direct attention is that the garrison at Coomassie was really inadequate to the demands of the situation. I asked a question on the subject about the 18th June, and the right hon. Gentleman then informed the House that there were stores for 300 men for three months in Coomassie, and that that was considered sufficient. That was a very extraordinary statement, and the Committee have a right to know who was the military authority that expressed such an opinion. On that occasion the right hon. Gentleman also stated that the first attempt to relieve Coomassie had failed, owing to insufficiency of carriers. I think the right hon. Gentleman must have been misinformed. The first relieving column failed because it was repulsed by a superior force. As has been pointed out, the situation at Coomassie has cleared by the remarkable display of military qualities both by the Governor, Sir Frederick Hodgson, and Colonel Willcocks, but I think that the cause of the outbreak ought to be investigated carefully. I never felt satisfied as to the manner in which the Envoys sent over from Ashanti before the occupation of that country were received by the Colonial Office. They were denied the right of a hearing, to which apparently they had a claim, and they were refused all credence to their representations. I may be quite mistaken in that view, for I am talking at second hand; but, generally, I fear that the Ashantis have had a good deal of provocation, especially the members of the old Royal family. I only want to say one word in regard to South Africa—in regard to the position in which the loyalists there, who have suffered so much during the war, find themselves at the present moment. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that there is a good deal of suffering among certain classes in Natal and in portions of Cape Colony—though not to the same extent—and also amongst British subjects in the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. I admit that there is a great deal of difficulty in dealing with this question carefully and justly, and that it will probably require a very considerable expenditure before it is satisfactorily settled. But these people have great claims upon this country. The provisions of the British Government for the defence of Natal and the Cape border were very inadequate, although very ample warning had been given. That, however, is a very large question which I do not propose to raise in any detail now. But it is a very important question, and has a very large bearing on the claims of these people upon us. The defence of the Government as to the inadequacy of the preparations was that the moment they had determined to put the colonies into a strictly military defensive position that moment the enemy would have in any case attacked. That might be a good defence, but it had been pressed too far. A great deal of the want of preparation was due to defects in our constitutional system —making questions of war or peace depend on popularity or on popularity rather than on the real necessities of the case. Whether that be so or not, our responsibilities are great towards these suffering people. I ask whether it may not be possible to take some temporary steps, by sending out a high officer or a small commission to South Africa, which would have power to give some form of temporary relief to the loyalists not only in the British colonies, but in the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, who have suffered through no fault of their own. We had hoard of temporary assistance being given to the relations of British officers who perished owing to the unfortunate action of another Power, until the whole question of compensation could be settled; and it appears to me that something in the same direction might be done in South Africa. If that were done, it would give great satisfaction to our loyal colonists, who have great claims upon us. I admit there are difficulties in the way, but a practical method might be found by the Imperial Govern- ment of giving that temporary assistance which is needed so badly.
In answering the various questions which have been put to me in the discussion, I will, in the first place, deal with the reference by the hon. Member for Wick and the hon. Member for Linlithgowshire to the Report of Sir David Chalmers and the incidents connected with the insurrection in Sierra Leone. I confess I was at first almost unable to understand why the hon. Member for Wick should have thought it necessary, when the matter had become almost ancient history, to repeat a large portion of the argument which he addressed to the Committee on the Appropriation Bill last year, and which I answered fully, better, perhaps, than I can do now, because then the facts were fresh in my recollection. But the hon. Members for Wick and Linlithgowshire are anxious that some feeling of soreness that has been created in the minds of the relatives of the late Sir David Chalmers should be removed. With that desire I heartily sympathise, and, as far as it is in my power, I will comply with their request. But in the meantime, referring to some of the observations of the hon. Member for Wick, I would point out to him that he has been very considerably misinformed in what he said about the hut tax. He went again over the complaints made last year—the harshness of its collection, and the conduct of the District Commissioner. I gave last, year the reasons for the policy of imposing the hut tax, and showed the absolute impossibility of finding any alternative. If peace and order are to be maintained in this vast district we must have funds, and there are no other means of raising them so easy or so suitable as the hut tax has shown itself to be, not only in Sierra Leone but in every other country in which we have had to deal with native races. As regards the incidence of the hut tax, there is nothing further to be said. But the hon. Member opposite, while complaining of what he calls charges against Sir David Chalmers, himself makes most offensive charges against those who are at present officials of the Government. I appeal to the hon. Member to consider the effect of such speeches. Defend Sir David Chalmers by all means, but do not attack those whom you have never seen, who are carrying on a very difficult work at the risk of their health and their lives for a very small remuneration. It is these men upon whom we depend for the work of civilisation and the development which we have undertaken, and it is most unfair to make charges which, with all the rest of the speech omitted, will be sent out to the colony, and may have the effect of discouraging men who are doing their duty I in very difficult circumstances. I protest against that much too frequent action of hon. Members, and one of the worst offenders is the hon. Member for Poplar, who, after occupying an important position in the Colonial Office, might have been thought to be willing to defend officials, many of whom were appointed during his term of office.
All that I said was that I objected to the powers given to those officials.
The hon. Member for Poplar, speaking of a letter which confirms the statement of the hon. Member for Wick, says it is a monstrous thing that the District Commissioners should have powers of life and death in the Protectorate, and at the same time says ho believes that all the difficulties in the Protectorate and all the difficulties in Ashanti (eight hundred miles away, with two separate countries in between— and the most difficult country in the world) were caused by our interference with the privileges of the native chiefs. I quite agree that if you are to deal with the government of these vast protectorates — I am not talking of colonies, for they are different—you must, as far as possible, deal with them through the chiefs, and according to native customs and native law. What is the case? The chiefs have the power of life and death over their own people in the Protectorate, and all we have done is to insist that there shall be a European assessor in the shape of a District Commissioner, and that Commissioner is to see that justice is being done. The sentence of death is passed by the chief, with the consent of the District Commissioner, who has power to disallow the sentence. Something has been said about the qualifications of District Commissioners. It is not easy to find competent British lawyers to go into the wilds of Africa, with no white man within hundreds of miles. In the second place, what use do you think British law would be where cases are dealt with according to native law? It is not our business to interfere with the chiefs except so far as is necessary in the cause of humanity and to prevent oppression. With regard to Sir David Chalmers and the reception of his Report, I really am very much grieved that I should be thought to have uttered a word of complaint respecting anything done by Lady Chalmers, whom I regard, and with whom I sympathise very much in the loss of her husband, who was a valuable servant of the Crown. But I do think the relatives of Sir David Chalmers are unreasonable, for when I read what I said when the first discussion took place, I hardly see how it is possible it could have the effect represented. I said—
How was it possible to say more than that? I had to do justice not only to Sir David Chalmers, but also to those who lay under the imputations which were necessarily implied in his Report. In defending them I did not accuse him. I did not doubt then and I do not now his absolute impartiality, and his painstaking, scrupulous general accuracy; but, having to act myself as a final court of appeal in this matter, I came to the I conclusion that in some respects ho had been too hard on other officers in the colonial service, and I was obliged to point out that in those cases I had not been able to accept his conclusions. But with his most important recommendations I agreed, and we have since carried out the reforms, he suggested, I believe with the very best result. I have further to say that the hon. Member for Poplar was inaccurate in the statements he made with regard to the result of the hut tax. I cannot answer for the future. It is true that we do not know enough of these savage countries to be able always to predict beforehand what is likely to go on among them, what will happen, or what difficulty will occur. We have not a sufficient number of Europeans amongst them. All I can say at the present time is that the hut tax appears to be collected with the greatest ease. There is no difficulty of any kind, and there is no anticipation of any present disorder, and the finances of Sierra Leone are at the present moment in a very satisfactory condition. The hon. Member for Poplar and the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield referred to what was going on in Ashanti. I rejoice to confirm what has been said about the splendid gallantry of the native troops employed there under the skilful leadership of Colonel Willcocks, and the way in which Sir Frederic and Lady Hodgson and all members of the garrison endured the privations of the siege. Everything connected with that part of the incident must be extremely satisfactory to the House. What has been done up to the present time has never been done before and could never be done before. I wish to dwell on this fact a little, because it is no doubt probable that in future years, if I hold my present position, I may have to come to the House for a grant for what is known as the West African Frontier Force. The West African Frontier Force is a new force of 5,000 men raised from the Hausas in West Africa, and intended not merely for the protection of our interests in northern Nigeria, but to be used in local disturbances throughout West Africa. In the present instance, the moment we heard of the difficulties in Coomassie, although the Governor did not anticipate that the rising would be as serious as it had been, I telegraphed to Colonel Lugard, who was able to send him all the troops I asked for. Only about 1,500 of these troops had been placed on the coast a short time, and it is of these troops especially that Colonel Willcocks speaks in such glowing terms. Happily it has been proved that they are a most splendid race of fighting men, able to supply any deficiency of men we thought at one time likely to be experienced because we were unable to get Hausa troops. The hon. Member asks me what was the cause of this disturbance. We have not the facts before us, and it would be hopeless to attempt at the present moment to give any reasonable account of what has happened. But I think that one or two things will suggest themselves to hon. Members. It is said that there have been three expeditions to Ashanti. The expedition under Lord Wolseley was not an expedition which resulted in any permanent occupation of the country; it was merely a punitive expedition; it was enormously costly because so many white men were employed. Then we had the expedition in 1896, which resulted in the occupation of the country; but that expedition was a bloodless expedition. We had no occasion to fight, and there is no doubt in these circumstances that the Ashantis entertained a high opinion of their prowess, and were prepared to try conclusions with us when they believed that they had a reason to be discontented. What special cause of discontent they have at the present time it is too early to say, but that will be, no doubt, a subject of inquiry on the part of the Colonial Office when the proper time comes."I have not one word to say against him. He was recommended to me by his long experience of his work and his most valuable public services. He had been Chief Justice, and was therefore naturally supposed to have, and rightly supposed to have, a judicial and impartial mind, and he most patriotically agreed to go out to a country of whose climate he had had some experience. It was there, I am afraid, that he contracted the seeds of new disease, and he has suffered very severely in consequence. Sir David Chalmers was selected as the most impartial and judicious man I could find, and I am most thankful, most grateful, to him for the very valuable inquiries he made. I think he has placed a most valuable number of facts before us; and although I have not found myself able to agree with all the conclusions at which he arrived, I am none the less sensible of the obligations I am under to him for the inquiry and for the services be has done."
Why was there so small a garrison?
Because it was thought to be sufficient. It was quite sufficient for the purpose for which it was intended to be there —that is to say, sufficient for ordinary times. If my hon. friend intends to suggest to me that throughout West Africa and the colonies for which I am responsible I should have always on the spot a sufficient number of troops to put down any rising that may occur, all I can say is that I should cease to be an Imperialist. Powerful and rich as this country is, it is quite impossible to undertake that. We must take the risks of Empire. There is no doubt that if we profess to govern and control and be responsible for these vast territories, we hold them only with a comparatively small number of troops, and when a trouble arises in any place it is almost certain that we should not have at the spot the number of men required to put down the rising. All we can hope for is that we should have within reach a sufficient number of men to deal with it. If my hon. friend will consider what we are answerable for in Nigeria, in Lagos, on the Gold Coast, in Sierra Leone, and that we have at the present time a little over 4,000 troops there, I think he will understand that it is impossible to be always thoroughly prepared for any sudden disturbance.
I did not expect that at all. I said that a garrison of 300 men in an important position like Coomassie was insufficient. I still adhere to that view. Besides, the subsequent expense entailed by the successful rising is far greater.
I do not think that a garrison of 300 men is insufficient, and if we had had 600 men there it would have been no better. In order to have dealt with this most serious insurrection in a satisfactory way it is evident we should require at least 2,000 men, and nothing of that kind was contemplated as a permanent garrison for Coomassie. I have come to the conclusion that it is desirable in future to hold a much larger stock of ammunition in Coomassie. The greatest difficulty is in regard to food. In that climate even tinned food will not last. It is impossible to have a large supply of food to last for more than three months. Our difficulties have not come to an end in Ashanti. We still have fighting to do, and reinforcements will still be required there. But the great security for the Gold Coast will be found in the railways which we are now making. We have arranged, on terms most satisfactory to the colony, for the continuation of the railway to Coomassie, which was authorised two years ago, and as soon as we get the railway there I do not think we shall have any trouble in Ashanti. If it had not been for this unfortunate occurrence the finances of the Gold Coast would be in a most satisfactory condition. In the last two years we expected to have an average surplus of something like £50,000, which would have enabled us to repay the entire loan which we borrowed from the Treasury for the purposes of the last expedition. All that is now postponed for a considerable time, but if my anticipations are fulfilled the annual surplus in a reasonable time will allow us to pay the expenses not only of the last but of the present expedition. With reference to Jamaica and its finances, I am sorry that the hon. Member for Poplar takes so poor a view of the future prosperity of the island. I am much more sanguine than the hon. Member. I think that the neck of the trouble in Jamaica has been broken, and I look forward with hope to the prospect of improvement from three separate quarters. First of all, the taxes have been considerably raised. I am aware the tariff has given some offence to some hon. Members, but the people must be prepared to bear the infliction until we may be in a position to relieve them, as I hope that will be soon. We have been enabled, thanks to the liberality of Parliament, to give a subsidy, partly by the colony and partly by the Imperial Government, to a great steamship firm, Messrs. Elder, Dempster, and Co., and I hope shortly to see a direct rapid and improved passenger and fruit service established between this country and Jamaica. I confess that I have great hopes of the development of what is even now one of the most important industries in the island. The third expectation arises from the improvement which I hope will now take place in the administration of the railway. It has been involved in serious embarrassments and has been badly managed, but we are taking the necessary steps to correct this defect, and I hope, now that the railway is in the hands of the Government, and they have established their right to control the financial transactions, we shall be able to put the finances in a satisfactory condition. I now turn to a subject mentioned to the House by the hon. Member for Preston. It has been stated that, according to existing proposals, compensation is not to be paid to companies in Natal and elsewhere whose property has been injured as distinguished from injury done to individuals. I do not think that statement is perfectly correct, but it is true that we have carefully avoided making ourselves in any way responsible for making compensation in the case of mines. I may tell my hon. friend the Member for Preston that in doing that we had in view the danger of setting up any precedent which might be extremely inconvenient hereafter. Fortunately, the injury done to mines, whether in Natal or elsewhere, has been very slight; but although I am not in any way prepared to pledge myself to make any compensation to the coal mine owners in Natal, yet if the colony are themselves desirous of making inquiry into the matter I should offer no objection, leaving the question of decision for a later period. In connection with a similar matter the hon. Member for Ecclesall asks me a question in regard to the position of British subjects in Natal, in Cape Colony, in the Transvaal, and in the Orange River Colony, who are in distress. I admit that a great number of British subjects are in great distress. Their condition is a subject for general sympathy. I should be sorry if anything I say should be construed into any want of sympathy with them, or that we were ignorant of the sufferings which they have undergone in many cases in consequence of their loyalty. But if my hon. friend the Member for Ecclesall wishes the Government to undertake some sort of general responsibility for compensation in those colonies, I think he cannot have considered to what it would lead. The question of compensation to colonists is surely in the first instance a matter for the colonial Government. If this country is never to enter on the defence of any of its colonies without undertaking at the same time responsibility for all injury that may be done to those colonies by war, I think it would he a strong argument with many people against this country ever undertaking the defence of colonies at all. Let hon. Gentlemen consider what our colonies are. What are the liabilities of some of our great colonies? We might, under conceivable circumstances, be called upon to defend a great colony against a great Power, and that colony might be invaded and immense mischief might be done. Surely that would not be a case in which the mother country, which was expending blood and treasure in defence of the colony, should also be expected to pay for the necessary consequences of war? I cannot undertake any responsibility of that kind, although, of course, if there were special cases brought to our knowledge, I am sure the Government would give the matter their most careful consideration.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution read a second time, and agreed to.
Supply 2Nd August
Resolutions reported:—
Civil Service Estimates, 1900–1901
Class Ii
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £45,501, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £124,483, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Beard."
Class I
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £22,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Change which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Houses of Parliament Buildings."
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £35,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Expenditure in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings."
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £16,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for constructing a new Harbour of Refuge at Peterhead."
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £226,403, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay- ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Rates and Contributions in lieu of Rates, etc., in respect of Government Property, and for Rates on Houses occupied by Representatives of Foreign Powers, and for the Salaries and Expenses of the Rating of Government Property Department, and for a Contribution towards the Expense of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade."
8. "That a sum, not exceeding £132,685, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Erection, Repairs, and Maintenance of Public Buildings in Ireland, for the Maintenance of certain Parks and Public Works, and for the Maintenance of Drainage Works on the River Shannon."
9. "That a sum, not exceeding £35,487, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for payments under the Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, the Light Railways (Ireland) Acts, 1889 and 1893, the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1895, the Railways (Ireland) Act, 1896."
Class Ii
10. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,297, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the House of Lords."
11. "That a sum, not exceeding £14,896, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses in the Offices of the House of Commons."
12. "That a sum, not exceeding £96,407, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."
13. "That a sum not exceeding £133,561, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Subordinate Departments."
14. "That a sum, not exceeding £64,018, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of certain services transferred from the Mercantile Marine Fund."
15. "That a sum, not exceeding £5, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for meeting the Deficiency of Income from Fees, etc., for the requirements of the Beard of Trade, under the Bankruptcy Acts, 1883 and 1890, and the Companies (Winding-up) Act, 1890."
16. "That a sum, not exceeding £13,439, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments,"
17. "That a sum, not exceeding £33,040, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."
18. "That a sum, not exceeding £25,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."
19. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,508, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board for Scotland, and for Expenses under the Vaccination Act, Infectious Disease Notification Act, Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, Public Health (Scotland) Act, Poor Law (Scotland) Act, and Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1899."
20. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,811, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland."
21. "That a sum, not exceeding £63,245, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Agriculture and other Industries and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and of the services administered by that Department, including sundry Grants-in-Aid."
22. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland."
23. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,117, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Public Record Office in Ireland, and of the Keeper of State Papers in Dublin."
24. "That a sum, not exceeding £20,682, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works in Ireland."
25. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,814, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses in the Department of the Registrar General of Births, etc., and the Expenses of Collecting Emigration and other Statistics in Ireland."
26 "That a sum, not exceeding £10,589, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the General Valuation and Boundary Survey of Ireland."
Class Iii
27. "That a sum, not exceeding £56,652, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Lord Advocate's Department, and other Law Charges, and the Salaries and Expenses of the Courts of Law and Justice in Scotland."
28. "That a sum, not exceeding £29,237, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices in Her Majesty's General Register House, Edinburgh."
29. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of the Establishment of the Crofters' Commission."
30. "That a sum, not exceeding £50,684, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of the Prison Commissioners for Scotland, and of the Prisons under their control, including the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics and the Preparation of Judicial Statistics."
31. "That a sum, not exceeding £33,510, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland."
32. "That a sum, not exceeding £62,262, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for such of the Salaries and Expenses of the Supreme Court of Judicature and of certain other Legal Departments in Ireland as are not: charged on the Consolidated Fund."
33. "That a sum, not exceeding £64,710, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries, Allowances, and Expenses of various County Court Officers, of Commissioners, and of Magistrates in Ireland, and the Expenses of Revision."
34. "That a sum, not exceeding £56,150, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1900, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioner of Police, the Police Courts, and the Metropolitan Police Establishment of Dublin."
35. "That a sum, not exceeding £752,408, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary."
36. "That a sum, not exceeding £74,443, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of the General Prisons Board in Ireland, and of the Prisons under their control, and of the Registration of Habitual Criminals."
37. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,906, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in the Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum, Ireland."
Class Iv
38. "That a sum not exceeding £690,318, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland."
39. "That a sum not exceeding £2,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1901, for a grant to the Board of Trustees for Manufactures in Scotland in aid of the maintenance of the National Gallery, School of Art, and Museum of Antiquities, Scotland."
40. "That a sum, not exceeding £515, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1901, for the Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners for managing certain School Endowments in Ireland."
41. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,079, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery of Ireland, including a Grant-in-Aid for the purchase of pictures."
42. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for a Grant in Aid of the Expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland."
Class V
43. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1901, for sundry Colonial Services, including certain Grants-in-Aid."
Class Vi
44. "That a sum, not exceeding £468, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Hospitals and Infirmaries, and certain Miscellaneous, Charitable, and other Allowances in Ireland, including sundry Grants-in-Aid."
Class Vii
45. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,191, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund of certain Miscellaneous Advances."
46. "That a sum, not exceeding £37,030 be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for a Contribution to the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account."
Army Estimates, 1900–1901
47. "That a sum, not exceeding £275,000 be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges of the War Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901."
48. "That a sum, not exceeding £204,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Ordnance Factories (the cost of the Productions of which will be charged to the Army, Navy, and Indian and Colonial Governments), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901."
Resolutions read a second time.
First six Resolutions agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Seventh Resolution, "That a sum, not exceeding £226,403, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Rates and Contributions in lieu of Rates, etc, in respect of Government Property, and for Rates on Houses occupied by Representatives of Foreign Powers, and for the Salaries and Expenses of the Rating of Government Property Department, and for a Contribution towards the Expense of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade.'"
drew attention to the amount of £10,000, which was the contribution made by the Government to the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. It was an extremely proper sum to contribute in 1865, when the Government paid no rates on Government property; but the Fire Brigade being now under the control of the London County Council, and the Government now paying rates upon its property, the reason for the grant had disappeared. The County Council did not want the money, and he could see no justification for its continuance. It would have to be paid this year, but he hoped the Committee would receive an assurance that it would be discontinued in the future.
pointed out that there always had been contributions by the Government to institutions in London which had never been made in the case of provincial towns. He admitted there was a great deal in what had been said by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, and agreed that owing to the payment of rates upon Government property an entirely different position was created. In another year he would give the matter his serious consideration.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions Eight and Nine agreed to.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Tenth Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £4,297, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the House of Lords.'"
called attention to the delay in filling up the position of the third or Beading Clerk in the House of Lords. He believed the office had been kept vacant for almost a year, entirely owing to some misunderstanding or some difference of opinion as to who should fill the office up, and who should be the person to be put into it. The Committee of the House of Lords which sat to consider the question of its own offices came to the conclusion that whenever the post became vacant it should be filled up by one of the permanent staff of the House of Lords. The Joint Committee of both Houses, which sat in 1899, received that recommendation, and agreed with it. There was, therefore, a very strong recommendation that that form should be followed, and there were very good reasons for following it; but the office had been vacant for nearly a year, and the common voice of rumour said the recommendation of the two Committees was not to be followed, and that a person entirely outside the staff of the House of Lords was to be appointed to it. He complained that during the year a large amount of work had been thrown upon the other clerks of the House of Lords, and some inconvenience had been suffered by the public owing to the recommendations of the two Committees not being carried out. It was not the proper way to treat the officers of the House of Lords, and unless some explanation was given he should raise the matter upon the Vote early next session.
said that in point of fact the Joint Committee was neither more nor less than a farce. By the interpretation placed upon the terms of reference by the noble Lord who presided over it, the Committee was debarred from discussing any of the questions which the House desired it to discuss. The proceedings of the Committee, which was appointed at the instance of the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, after prolonged debates, were rendered nugatory by their being prevented from going into questions which it was necessary they should discuss.
agreed with the remarks of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Forest of Dean, but he could not understand the conclusion which had been arrived at. As they had been able to get along during the year without a third clerk, he thought they might be content with two clerks in future. The hon. Member opposite said that rumour told him that there was some dispute as to who should appoint the clerk. When the clerk was appointed it would be time to make a protest, but so long as he was not appointed it was the gain of his salary to the country, and he hoped the dispute might continue.
said that two clerks were quite sufficient for the House of Lords. There were only two at the time of the Act of Union. When the Joint Committee sat to consider the question of the officers of the House of Lords he tried hard to object to it, and was ruled out of order at least half a dozen times. He tried to object to it on the ground that it did not contain an Irish Member, and, of course, it was a sham and a farce. It only required to have a Member of the House of Commons upon it who would not accept a pension for life, and he would have told the House of Lords how the work could have been done by two clerks.
said he thought the House was entitled to have a word or two from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on this subject, as it was mainly through his instrumentality that the Committee was appointed. He did not think that the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied with the result which the Committee had arrived at. He intended that there should be a searching and thorough inquiry, and there was not. As the right hon. Gentleman had taken the initiative in cutting down the salaries of the staff when the Committee was appointed, and as the Committee were debarred from making the inquiries which were intended, he thought the House was entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he was going to allow the matter to remain where it was or whether he was going to carry it further. If no satisfactory explanation was given, the House of Commons must use its time-honoured privilege and refuse to vote the Supply.
said it would be quite impossible for him to go into the various questions of privilege arising between various authorities of the House of Lords. The Treasury had no control over the Vote, but had simply to explain the details of it. Undoubtedly the Committee were appointed to make a much more searching inquiry than they had been enabled to make, owing to the ruling of the Chair. Subjects were ruled outside the reference which he did not think it was considered would be outside the reference when the Committee were appointed. He was bound to say that he thought it was somewhat unfortunate that the Committee were not able to hold a thorough inquiry and go into a number of subjects which it would have been satisfactory, even from the point of view of the House of Lords, to have had thoroughly ventilated. It was impossible for him to give a pledge that any further inquiry would be made. As to the third clerk, the hon. Member for Carnarvon said with justice that he had raised the question in the last Parliament, and the object he had in view, which had
AYES.
| ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Denny, Colonel | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Carrie |
| Arrol, Sir William | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lowe, Francis William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Faber, George Denison | Lowles, John |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lucas-Shadwell, William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r | Fergusson, RtHnSir J. (Manc'r | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW(Leeds | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Macdona, John Gumming |
| Beach, Rt.Hn.Sir M.H.(Bristol) | Fisher, William Hayes | Maclure, Sir John William |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Bethell, Commander | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | M'Killop, James |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Bigwood, James | Garfit, William | Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E. |
| Bill, Charles | Gedge, Sydney | Melville, Beresford V. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J. |
| Brassey, Albert | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Monk, Charles James |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Butcher, John George | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Morrison, James A.(Wilts., S) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Gull, Sir Cameron | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Newdigate, Francis Alex. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm) | Heath, James | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) | Purvis, Robert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pym, C. Guy |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Kimber, Henry | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson |
| Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Lawson, John Grant (Yorksh. | Rutherford, John |
been obtained, was that the salaries of the clerks of the House of Lords should be placed upon the same footing as those of the House of Commons, and, in view of the fact that the salaries of the clerks, which used to be higher in the House of Lords, had now been placed on the same footing in the two Houses, he thought that there should be three clerks at the Table in the House of Lords, as there were in the House of Commons. With regard to the point of patronage which had been raised, he could not speak with any authority, but he understood that there had been some discussion on the subject. The salary of the third or Reading Clerk was in respect of two offices, and he understood that the question in dispute was whether the Reading Clerk should be appointed to two offices or whether they should be divided, and two officials appointed as before.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 128; Noes, 60. (Division List No. 275.)
| Seeley, Charles Hilton | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm) |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napiet | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath |
| Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. G. B. Stuart- |
| Simeon, Sir Harrington | Thornton, Percy M. | Wyndham, George |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | |
| Smith, James Parker(Lanarks) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand) | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Spencer, Ernest | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-L.) |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Asher, Alexander | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Moss, Samuel |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Harwood, George | Perks, Robert William |
| Birrell, Augustine | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburyh |
| Blake, Edward | Hedderwick, Thos. Charles H. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hogan, James Francis | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. |
| Bramsdon, Thomas Arthur | Jones, David Brynmor(Swans.) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Brigg, John | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Souttar, Robinson |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Steadman, William Charles |
| Burns, John | Lewis, John Herbert | Strachey, Edward |
| Burt, Thomas | Lloyd-George, David | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Wallace, Robert |
| Caldwell, James | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Cawley, Frederick | M'Kenna, Reginald | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Channiug, Francis Allston | M'Leod, John | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Maddison, Fred. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Dewar, Arthur | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Doogan, P. C. | Molloy, Bernard Charles | Sir Charles Dilke and Mr. Gibson Bowles. |
| Edwards, Owen Morgan | Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr | |
Resolutions 11 to 15 agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Sixteenth Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £13,439, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments.'"
said, that in regard to this Vote he desired to raise a question with regard to which he would not trouble them in any great detail. It had been raised before, and the House thought he was justified in raising it before. It was this. The North Wales Lunatic Asylum Committee was obliged by the Local Government Beard to obtain a fresh water supply, and in order to obtain that, it was necessary that the level of a certain lake should be raised. In order to raise the level of that lake it became necessary to approach the Commissioners of Woods and Forests for the purpose of acquiring certain lands. The Woods and Forests Department said that in order to make the title perfectly secure it would be necessary to purchase the mineral rights. The committee of the lunatic asylum thereupon entered into negotiations with the Woods and Forests Commissioners. The chairman of the asylum committee called upon the Commissioners and drew their attention to the fact that the mineral rights which were, it was stated, to be acquired were of a perfectly nominal character and were practically valueless to them. In spite of that the Woods and Forests Commissioners fixed the price of the mineral rights at £500. The asylum committee were absolutely staggered at such a price being charged for rights which in their view were entirely valueless, and they wrote to the Commissioners setting forth their reasons for believing the rights to be of no value. No reply had ever been received from the Commissioners,but they did reduce the price from £500 to £444. When he replied to the Secretary to the Treasury on a former occasion the right hon. Gentleman replied that the committee themselves had voluntarily offered £400 for the mineral rights. He did not blame the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, because, although it was not accurate, he relied upon wrong information which had been supplied to him. As a matter of fact the North Wales Lunatic Asylum Committee made that offer because they were entirely in the hands of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. They wore compelled to buy the mineral rights, and to pay that sum of £444, which he contended was a great injustice to them. The mineral rights, as a matter of fact, were not worth a five pound note, and he himself would have been very sorry to give such a sum for them. He had raised the question for the purpose of pointing out and urging that in negotiations with public bodies the Commissioners ought to remember that the object of acquiring these lands was for the public benefit, and that it was their duty to act generously, honestly, and justly with any local bodies applying to them.
said several points had been raised by the hon. Gentleman as to whether the mineral rights were worth the price charged. He could only speak from the information which had been supplied, which was, that £500 had been asked by the vendors, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. In placing a certain value upon these mineral rights, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests had acted upon the advice of their valuer. He understood that the valuer put the same price on the mineral rights in this case as was paid in regard to certain other property in an adjoining district. He could not agree that the Commissioners ought to have sold the land to the beard of the lunatic asylum at a lower price than to a private individual. The local ratepayer had no claim to any special concession from the Imperial taxpayer.
said he was glad that the hon. Member for Flint Boroughs had raised this question again, because it had enabled the Secretary to the Treasury to make a statement as to the attitude of his Department on the question. One point had been made clear by the Secretary to the Treasury—one proposition had been laid down which he found it difficult to assent to, and that was that local ratepayers were not entitled to any consideration at the hands of the Woods and Forests Commissioners. What had happened was this, that one Depart- ment of the Government had compelled a local authority to spend a considerable sum of money in order to increase its water supply. So as to do that, it was necessary to spend money, and another Department of the Government, the Woods and Forests Commissioners, were approached, and they asked a price out of all proportion to the value of the land. He contended that they were not entitled to take advantage of the circumstances in which the local authorities were placed and charge anything they liked. If the Woods and Forests Commissioners had said to the Asylum Board "You are compelled to buy these rights and pay £2,000," they would have had no option but to submit.
said he thought a local body, a quasi- public body, had been very harshly treated in this case. There was an analogous case in which the Woods and Forests Commissioners had acted in quite a different way. They had, in the neighbourhood of the metropolis, absolutely given fifteen acres of valuable public land to a quasi-public body. In face of that he thought that either their present action action was indefensible, or that, in the other case, they had done a wrong thing.
Question put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Seventeenth Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £33,040, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works and Public Buildings.'"
desired, as the salary of the First Commissioner of Works was included under this Vote, to raise what he considered to be an important point. So long as the statue of Oliver Cromwell defiled the precincts of the House he would in season and out of season raise his voice in protest, and he should contest the Vote for the right hon. Gentleman's salary. He rejoiced in the fact that he was a man of peace, but he noticed that owing to the reticence on the part of the Irish Members in bringing their opinions before the House, there was a danger of their presence in the House being overlooked. On 9th October a resolution was passed by the House of Lords to the effect that no statue of Oliver Cromwell ought to be erected within the precincts of Parliament. With reckless disregard to that resolution the right hon. Gentleman, who had voted against Cromwell and all his ways in 1895, allowed this statue to be erected. Not only was his action disrespectful to the House of Lords, but it was wanting in respect to the House of Commons and his own party, because in 1895, when an hon. Gentleman, afflicted with a large Nonconformist conscience, raised the question of having a statue of Oliver Cromwell, the Irish party opposed it and the Tories voted with them. Oliver Cromwell was the last person in the world whose statue should be erected in the precincts of a constitutional assembly. He called the Mace a "bauble." He was no friend to the House of Lords, and he abolished it. He was no friend to the Church; it was true he did not describe the union of the Church and State as incestuous, but he destroyed the Church. He was a most hateful politician, even as an English politician, for he not only brought himself into public life, but, having commenced public life as a Radical, he brought in a whole string of relatives whom he pushed into public positions. The erection of a statue of this man was a standing insult to Ireland, whose people he murdered by thousands. To erect that statue within the precincts of a House of Commons which, owing to the exigencies of the circumstances, Irish representatives were compelled to attend, was a deliberate insult to every Irishman in existence. Was it felt that the Unionists were under such obligation to Lord Rosebery for having broken up the Liberal party that they were obliged to allow the monument to be erected? He should be glad to hear the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, who had himself on two occasions voted against the erection of the statue. It would probably be put down to "continuity of policy," but the whole transaction was a gross, cowardly, and contemptible insult, against which Irishmen would protest on every possible occasion.
I do not intend to say more than two or three words. The hon. Member has made exactly the same speech on three occasions this session, with, perhaps, a slight variation of adjectives, and I have explained on two occasions my action in the matter. The hon. Member is perfectly right in saying that I have defended that action on the ground of continuity of policy, and he is also perfectly accurate when he says I voted in 1895 against the proposal to erect out of public funds a statue to Oliver Cromwell. When I came into office I found that my predecessor had accepted the offer of an anonymous donor to provide a statue, and had promised a site. The donor asked whether the Government intended to adhere to the promise he had made, on the faith of which the commission had already been given to the sculptor, and we replied in the affirmative. The site was chosen by my predecessor, and that site we gave. In no respect did we interfere with the action which had been taken. I do not think it would have been fair to upset the arrangement when it had gone so far, and I am perfectly prepared to take my share of responsibility in the matter.
did not consider that the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman was a justification of his action. This statue had been erected practically within the precincts of the House, in spite of the fact that both Houses of Parliament had on different occasions declared they did not want it.
The votes of the House were against the use of public money for the purpose.
said that if the House decided against the use of public money for the purpose, the House meant by that to express its disapproval of the erection of the statue under any circumstances. That was the method by which the House testified its approval or disapproval of a policy. He did not, however, join in the condemnation of the donor of the statue. That gentleman was perfectly entitled to give money for the purpose if he so pleased, being a great admirer of Cromwell. His own opinion, however, of Cromwell was that he was one of the greatest ruffians in the history of the country; that he did acts of autocracy and tyranny far in excess of those of the unfortunate king whom he condemned to the scaffold. After his conduct in Ireland, to erect a statue to Cromwell in a House which still contained 103 Irish representatives was really very like a message of war and enmity to the Irish people. On a previous occasion the First Lord of the Treasury made a comparison with regard to the attitude of Irishmen towards Cromwell, which was entirely fallacious. The right hon. Gentleman said he lived near Dunbar, where Cromwell inflicted a great and terrible defeat upon the men of Scotland, but yet the people of Scotland had learned, wisely, to forget the ignominy of the defeat, and they did not to-day hold towards Cromwell the feelings of rancour and hatred such as were evidenced by Irishmen. But the continued detestation and hatred
AYES.
| ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Curzon, Viscount | Keswick, William |
| Arrol, Sir William | Dalziel, James Henry | Kimber, Henry |
| Asher, Alexander | Denny, Colonel | Laurie, Lieut-General |
| Atkinson, lit. Hon. John | Dewar, Arthur | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) |
| Balfour, Rt HnGeraldW(Leeds | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn(Swans'a |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r | Lloyd-George, David |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Bethell, Commander | Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne | Lowe, Francis William |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M.M. | Fisher, William Hayes | Lowles, John |
| Bigwood, James | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Bill, Charles | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Birrell, Augustine | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Garfit, William | M'Killop, James |
| Bramsdon, Thomas Arthur | Gedge, Sydney | Maddison, Fred |
| Brassey, Albert | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Brigg, John | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Middlemore, John T. |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Monk, Charles James |
| Burt, Thomas | Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley | Moore William (Antrim, N.) |
| Butcher, John George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Griffith, Ellis J. | Morrison, James A. (Wilts, S. |
| Caldwell, James | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys. | Gull, Sir Cameron | Moss, Samuel |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Heath, James | Peel, Hon. Wm. R. Wellesley |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Provand, Andrew Dry burgh |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hughes, Colonel Edwin | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Purvis, Robert |
| Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Pym, C. Guy |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir M. W. |
| Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. | Kearley, Hudson E. | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kenyon, James | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
of Irishmen was not due to the fact that Cromwell beat the Irish in fair battle on an open field, but because he committed the assassinations and wholesale massacres of Drogheda. The comparison should not be with the battle of Dunbar, but with the massacre of Glencoe, as to which the horror of Scotchmen was as fresh to-day as when the massacre took place. There was really nothing in the point that it would have been unfair to have refused to erect the statue, as there were many parts of England where people would have been only too glad to give a site where the statue might have been erected without flouting the opinion of both Houses of Parliament, as had now been done.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes,150; Noes, 10. (Division List No. 276)
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Strachey, Edward | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm. |
| Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R(Bath |
| Rutherford, John | Talbot, Rt. Hon J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart- |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) | Wyndham, George |
| Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) | Tomlinson, Wm, Edw. Murray | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Smith, Hon. W. F. D. Strand) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | |
| Souttar, Robinson | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Spencer, Ernest | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Steadman, William Charles | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Tauuton | |
| Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Whiteley, H.(Ashton-under-L. |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hogan, James Francis | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | M'Leod, John | Mr. MacNeill and Mr. T. P. O'Connor. |
| Crilly, Daniel | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) | |
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Eighteenth Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £25,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services.'"
I am very conscious of the inconvenience of dealing with Votes in Supply on Report, and so far as I have been able I have abstained from doing so. At present I can only make one speech upon the subject, and in matters of this kind it is almost impossible to deal with such a subject in a satisfactory manner in one speech. In this instance I am forced to take this course, because this is one of the Votes which was guillotined last night, for out of 156 Votes 46 had their heads cut off last night without any discussion at all. This is a Vote for Foreign and other Secret Services of Her Majesty's Government; in other words, it is a sum of money which Her Majesty's Government asks for from this House in order to get private information from persons whose names it is not allowed to publish, and I need scarcely remind the House that it is one of those Votes which entirely escapes all audit and control, and almost all inquiry in this House. It is only accidentally that I am able on this occasion to animadvert upon the question of secret service money. I am by no means opposed to voting sums of money for secret services, for I believe it is absolutely necessary to have some fund from which to reward those who give this private information which is necessary for the safety of the country. I will go further and say that this money contrasts in a most remarkable manner with the much larger sums spent by other countries every year on a similar service. It is relatively a small sum, and it is absolutely necessary that such money should be spent. But if it be necessary to spend this money in ordinary times of peace, it is absolutely indispensable in times of war, and the English Government should have a considerable sum at its disposal to obtain information which may become of the most vital importance. In the time of Pitt and Napoleon we spent large sums of money in this way, and there arose a race of men who during the war between England and France acted as spies, and gave information to both sides. That is the nature of a spy, for if you want to get information from him as a rule you have not only got to pay him in money, but you have to give him some information which he may take to the other side. In times of war such information is most necessary. This is, perhaps, the one Vote among the sums voted by Parliament that escapes all subsequent examination. You vote this money and it goes into the hands of the Ministers, and then it absolutely disappears. All that we know is that particular Ministers have certified that the money has been expended with their approval. The Comptroller and Auditor General himself knows no more than this. But I shall be able to show that we have some means of knowing how the secret service money has been spent. If the secret service money is spent with judgment and in order to obtain true information it is extremely well spent; but if it is spent to obtain not true but false information, instead of being a benefit it is a most enormous injury, and that is exactly what has happened in this case, as I shall very shortly be able to show. In the beginning of the war with the Boers it became an extremely important matter that we should stop the carriage of contraband of war at Delagoa Bay——
Order, order! The hon. Member will not be in order in discussing the application, as he conceives it to be, of secret service money; the only question here is whether the House should vote a certain sum of money as secret service money. If any Department is known to have expended some of that money upon any particular object, then it may be called to account for it on the Vote for that Department. The question which can be discussed is, whether Parliament ought to authorise the Government to spend a sum of £65,000 for which they have not to account.
I do not propose to go into detail, but the object of my few remarks will be to claim a better control over the expenditure of this secret service money.
But the hon. Member was proceeding to deal with the question as to whether some of this money had been properly spent upon obtaining information at Delagoa Bay, and he is not entitled to do that.
What I am going to say and what I propose to argue is that this secret service money has been so spent as to procure false information for the Government, and that has resulted in Her Majesty's Government capturing ships in the belief that they had on board contraband of war when they had not. They failed to stop contraband of war going to the Boers, and this was in consequence of the way in which the secret service money was spent, and in regard to that I want to make some suggestions.
That is quite out of order upon this Vote.
referred to the fact that the Vote had increased from £36,000 to £65,000, and asked whether he might suggest that in expending the additional sum advice should be taken from merchants, stevedores, shippers, and others acquainted with the rules governing the shipping of cargo.
I think the hon. Member desires to get behind my ruling. All I can say is that, should he endeavour to do so, I shall do my best to stop him.
I assure you, Sir, I should not have the presumption to entertain such a desire. But I will abandon that line of argument, having indicated what I wished to say, and confine myself to generalities. My generality is this: Although it may be quite right that a sum of £36,000 should be voted for secret service, that an extra £300 a year should be voted for the management of the fund, and that the management should be placed in the hands of officials of the Foreign Office, still it is not right to ask us to increase that sum to the extent now before us unless we have some further means of controlling the secret service money. At present we have no information whatever about it. I observe the Vote is for "foreign and other" secret service money. What is the "other" secret service money? For all I can tell, it may be spent in the United Kingdom.
The manner in which the money is spent is not in issue here. If the House does not choose to entrust the Government with secret service money, that is a reason for not voting it; but if it is voted as secret service money there can be no question on the Secret Service Vote as to how it should be expended.
Then I will abandon that line of argument also. I will only say it is extremely unsatisfactory that a Vote should be presented to this House as to which we have no information given us, and as to which we can make no inquiry either before or after it is expended, even though the amount has been more than doubled. My belief is that a large proportion of this money during the present year has been expended in such a way that we ought not to vote one farthing of it. I regret that under your ruling I cannot give, as I should have been able to do, in detail my reasons for believing that. These reasons are very strong and important, and I think it is extremely doubtful whether, if we had been able to discuss the question in full, the House would have felt justified in agreeing to this important Vote.
I can conceive that in running an empire such as ours it may be necessary under certain circumstances to utilise a fund of this description, but at the same time I have some difficulty in understanding; why the enormous police service in this country should not be used for the purpose for which this money is provided. The Prime Minister a short time ago accounted for the failure to obtain proper information about the Beer forces by the fact that this House voted such a small amount of secret service money. It is for us to consider whether the difference in the situation as it was and as it might have been is satisfied by the increased amount which the Government are now asking us to provide. The main object I had in rising, however, was to ask for a pledge that no portion of this money would be devoted to any purpose other than that for which we are voting it. I think we are entitled to have a straight answer to a straight question. Will the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge on behalf of the Government that no portion of this Vote will be devoted to the support of any political candidates or to the satisfaction of any political interest at any General Election which may take place? If a satisfactory answer is given, it will, to some extent, remove my opposition to this Vote.
I am afraid I cannot give any pledge of the sort. It is extremely unlikely that the money will be used for any such purpose, but I cannot undertake to tie the hands of the Government as to the purposes to which they may devote this secret service money. The money is voted by the House to the Government without any limitation as to the purposes to which it should be applied, and I cannot make any pledge as desired by the hon. Member.
said he had always objected to entrusting any Government with such a large sum of money for which they were accountable to no one, and about which Parliament and the country knew abso- lutely nothing except that they had to pay it. With regard to the pledge asked for by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, if it was ridiculous, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to suppose that the money would be devoted to the purpose suggested, why did not the Secretary to the Treasury at once give the assurance asked for? The Vote was for "foreign and other" purposes. Those words were very wide, but the right hon. Gentleman had deliberately made them wider still by refusing to give this definite pledge in reply to a plain question. For all he knew, therefore, he might be fighting at the next election against someone receiving money from Her Majesty's Government. He could only say that he should vote against the resolution. It was a most dangerous thing in this democratic age that £65,000, or an increase of £35,000 over last year, should be voted for secret service on the eve of a General Election. He felt sure that the right hon. Gentleman gave the best reply he could, but that reply was most unsatisfactory. They had had in a brief space a confirmation of their worst doubts about this secret service money. He ventured to say in the nations where the most secret service money was spent there were the most vamped-up crime, and there the worst deeds took place. Secret service money had always been the minister of tyranny and corruption. If the right hon. Gentleman could have relieved them of the slightest doubts they would not have put him to the trouble of a division. He should certainly vote against this resolution.
I am amazed at the humiliating nature of the reply of the right hon. Gentleman. It might have been expected that the suggestion that this money, taken from the public, was to be devoted in aid of a political campaign, would had been repudiated with scorn and indignation; but Members are left to draw their own inference from the fact that the question was met in the way it was. I will make one point which I hope the public will remember, and that is that this sum of £30,000 additional voted on the eve of a General Election is exactly the amount of the cheque which Hooley sent to the responsible heads of the Tory party—a cheque kept for months in the hope that it would be cashed, and which they only decided not to cash when they had to make a virtue of necessity. What they could not get from Hooley they are now taking from the country.
If there is any political risk to the Government connected with the next General Election it is that they may come back to the House with too great a majority; and if any secret service money is expended it should be rather devoted to the purpose of seeing the balance between parties more evenly maintained. I cannot, however, conceive that anybody could imagine that secret service money would be applied to increasing the already too large disparity between the two parties in this House. Apart from that, one would like to think that there is no possibility of any use being made of secret service money for party purposes.
The right hon. Gentleman has surely no hesitation whatever in uttering a word in order to reassure the House and the country, whose confidence in the Government has been considerably shaken. We know that in even recent times this particular fund was applied to purposes wholly illegitimate. When the amount of this fund is being doubled for purposes mainly foreign in their character, we should have a definite pledge that not a single penny of it will be applied to political party purposes. A most reasonable appeal has been made to the right hon. Gentleman; but of course if that appeal cannot be answered we can only place one construction upon it, and must come to the conclusion—though with the greatest possible hesitation—that the Government are going to devote the secret service money to the help of their friends at the General Election. I appeal once more to the right hon. Gentleman to set our minds at rest in this matter, and I can assure him that any word he can say in that direction will be acceptable to the House and the country tonight.
I crave that indulgence of the House to amplify what I
AYES.
| ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bethell, Commander |
| Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Bigwood, James |
said before. When a Vote is given by the House for a general purpose I do not think that a Minister ought to undertake to limit the use of it in any way. But I will at the same time express my own opinion that this money is given not for party, but for national purposes, and that in my opinion it would be despicable to use what is given for national purposes for party purposes. I cannot conceive that a single penny of this fund could possibly be used for party purposes.
My hon. friend was amply justified in raising this question by the remarks which have fallen from the right hon. the Secretary to the Treasury. It seems to me almost incredible that the money should be applied in the way suggested, and I accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman in the spirit in which he has made it. I suppose that the secret service money passes through the same phases as other Votes, and that if there is any surplus at the end of the year that amount is carried to other accounts in the usual way
It is not; the balance is surrendered.
The balance is appropriated to other purposes. To a certain extent this fund is not large enough at the present time. I have spent some little time in reading the Blue-book in regard to China, and I am bound to say that the information we have obtained in regard to the growth of armaments in that country has been of a very insufficient character. It seems to me that if those entrusted with the management of affairs in China had been allowed the use of this fund better information might have been obtained forecasting the present disturbances.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 111; Noes, 32. (Division List No.277.)
| Bill, Charles | Garfit, William | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Morrison, James A. (Wilts., S.) |
| Brigg, John | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) |
| Brassey, Albert | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Griffith, Ellis J. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Gull, Sir Cameron | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Butcher, John George | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.(Birm) | Howard, Joseph | Purvis, Robert |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hughes, Colonel Edwin | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. G. Thomson |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) | Kenyon, James | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Kimber, Henry | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Laurie, Lieut. -General | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Lawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn | Spencer, Ernest |
| Curzon, Viscount | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Strachey, Edward |
| Denny, Colonel | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lowe, Francis William | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E(Taunt'n |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lowles, John | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | William's, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Macdona, John Cumming | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. ER. (Bath |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fisher, William Hayes | M'Killop, James | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Flower, Ernest | Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Monk, Charles James |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Asher, Alexander | Gourley, Sir E. Temperley | Roberts, J. Bryn (Eifion) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Hogan, James Francis | Souttar, Robinson |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) | Steadman, William Charles |
| Bramsdon, Thomas Arthur | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Burt, Thomas | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Caldwell, James | M'Leod, John | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | |
| Crilly, Daniel | Moss, Samuel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Dewar, Arthur | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Maddison. |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Thirty-first Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £33,510, be granted to Her Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland.'"
It will be in the recollection of the House that I lately called attention to what I conceived to be a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the arrest on warrant of two of my constituents—Mr. O'Keefe, the manager, and Mr. Keene, the editor, of the Kilkenny People. They were brought before two magistrates on a charge of having published the proceedings of a public meeting which was held two months before. I may say that Mr. O'Keefe is one of the most respected citizens in Kilkenny. He was mayor of the city last year, and Mr. Keene was a member of the corporation only a few months ago. If these gentlemen committed any offence I am not for a moment going to excuse them in the least. Nor am I going to prejudge the trial in the least. But I say it is a most extraordinary procedure that they should be brought up in the manner I have described on the 1st August for the publication in their paper on 2nd June of a resolution passed at a public meeting. I do not know the nature of that resolution, and therefore cannot defend it, but according to the information I have obtained from some of my constituents, there was a mooting of the organisation known in Ireland as the United Irish League, at Mullinahone, county Tipperary, on the 27th May, and there, it is alleged, some resolution was passed. A report was supplied to the press in the ordinary way, and was published in the Kilkenny People. Thanks to the action of the Crown that resolution and that paper have obtained a notoriety they never would have got otherwise. The Crown might within two mouths have been able to lay their hands on the people who passed the resolution and have prosecuted them, and not have dealt with the manager and editor of the paper and dragged them before two magistrates—one of them imported for the occasion. I say that this is as gross an interference with the freedom of the press as over occurred in Ireland, and that is saying a great deal. What Minister would dare to do such a thing in any part of Great Britain? The Crown might have trusted the Kilkenny bench of magistrates, composed of gentlemen of all sorts of politics, to deal with the two gentlemen—one of whom, as I have said, was only a few months ago mayor of the city, and the other a member of the corporation. I can account for it in no way except that the Government were in hopes that Parliament would be up before attention could be called to the case. I leave it to the Attorney General for Ireland to explain how it took him two months to hatch this case, and why it is that, with the ordinary law and a variety of Coercion Acts at his hand, he has had recourse to the ancient and obsolete Whiteboy Acts. Any amount of multiplication of the offence may have taken place in the meantime since the Mullinahone meeting. I want to know why the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not act on the principle that prevention is better than cure, and why ho did not step in to prevent the publication of the resolution, and why he did not visit those who passed the resolution with punishment, if passing it was illegal. Both Mr. Keene and Mr. O'Keefe are personal friends of my own, and they are not the men to evade responsibility for what they have done publicly; neither are the people of Mullinahone the people to evade responsibility. They are gentlemen who stand up to their guns and take the consequences. I say it is monstrous, instead of proceeding in the ordinary way, to drag them through the streets of the city over which one of them has presided. They might have been proceeded against by ordinary summons instead of under the Whiteboy Acts. I do not propose to detain the House at any length, but I certainly would have failed in my duty to my constituents if I had not brought before the House such a gross attempt to muzzle the press. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman is trying to destroy that paper because it has an enormous Nationalist influence in the city of Kilkenny. But if that was his object, I promise him that he has failed; he has only given it a better advertisement and a better claim on public confidence than it ever had before. What does the right hon. Gentleman, expect to gain by this action? I shall feel it my duty and pleasure to go into that city and setup a branch of the Irish League now, and we will give him resolutions quite as hot as he will relish them in Kilkenny city, without waiting for them to be imported from Mullinahone.
The hon. Member has indulged in a freedom which it would be obviously most improper for me to follow, because he has criticised and entered into the validity of a charge that is now pending against these two men.
I ask to be allowed to explain that I did nothing of the kind. I did not defend the resolution or the publication of it. All I said was that the Crown had the proper means two mouths ago to stop it.
If the hon. Member did not moan to discuss the nature of the charge, I am at a loss to understand what he means when he talks of muzzling the press.
I rise to order. I did not say——
There is no point of order. The Attorney General is putting a construction on the words of the hon. Member.
It would be unbecoming on my part if I let fall one word which might tend to prejudice accused persons over whom a charge is pending and who may yet have to stand their trial. And therefore it is absolutely impossible to enter into a discussion of the motives or object of the prosecution, and why a particular mode of procedure was adopted. I do not wish to enter into the facts of the case or to discuss them. I merely say that the hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken in thinking that the rising of Parliament had anything to do with the prosecution. These people are accused of the very serious crime—under the 3rd section of 1 and 2 William IV., c. 44—of printing certain matters tending to incite persons to unlawful combination, and to exercise intimidation upon a particular individual to do or not to do a particular thing.
That applies only to Ireland.
Of course it refers only to Ireland. That is the crime of which these gentlemen are accused, and if they are guilty of that crime it is preposterous to talk of the liberty of the press, as if there was any liberty of the press, which should be recognised, in instigating to commit a crime. The hon. Member said that the Crown ought to find out who passed the resolution. The offence was not passing the resolution, but publishing it. That is the crime of which these gentlemen are accused. The hon. Gentleman will not contend that when a man commits an offence he should not be brought before the magistrates and dealt with. One process is as legal as another, and unless it be conceded that the criminal should be allowed to choose the mode with which he should be dealt with and the tribunal before which he should come to be tried, there can be no complaint. Every care was taken, and every precaution, to avoid anything like indignity being cast upon these two gentlemen, and to save annoyance to them except what was absolutely necessary. Mr. O'Keefe himself thanked the Crown Solicitor for the kind consideration with which he was treated when he was brought before the magistrates. The hon. Gentleman said he was dragged through the streets; he might as well have said he was beheaded no one but Mr. O'Keefe himself and the constables who effected the arrest knew that he was arrested. It is impossible at the present early stage of the case, before it has been investigated, to enter into all the reasons which induced the Crown to take the proceeding which is now objected to, but when the prosecution has come to a conclusion I shall be prepared to justify to the satisfaction of the House the steps which the Crown took in this matter.
said he did not propose to discuss the nature of the charge which was made against these two gentlemen, or the evidence in support or against of that charge. Not only would such a proceeding be an abuse of the privileges of a Member of Parliament, but it might prejudice the case of these gentlemen. The real issue between the Attorney General and the Nationalist Members was as to the particular form of procedure adopted in this case. The procedure was to bring these gentlemen up under the Whiteboy Acts. So long ago as 1880 or 1881 he introduced a Bill to repeal these Acts, which received a considerable amount of support, and most of the Members were rather shocked to find that such archaic, obsolete, and savage Acts still remained on the Statute-book. The Whiteboy Acts applied to every kind of agrarian disputes, and so savage were they in their punishments, and so insidious and furtive and dangerous, that under a Whiteboy Act a man for a very trivial offence could be sentenced to seven years penal servitude. The right hon. Gentleman had said that editors should have no different treatment to anybody else. With that proposition he agreed. He himself had filled the difficult and trying position of an editor, and had occasionally come into conflict with the rights of individuals, and he had had to pay very dearly for his real or imaginary faults. He did not complain. He was brought before a civil court, tried by a jury, found guilty, and mulcted in damages. He made no complaint in that regard; but had he been in Ireland, and had he come into conflict with the landlords, he would have been tried as a criminal, and instead of being subjected to a fine of £100 or £1,000, would have been liable to seven years penal servitude, with the additional punish- ment of being twice or thrice publicly whipped in the market place.
No, not now. That part of the Act has been repealed.
was greatly relieved to hear that that was so; it showed that some progress was being made even in Ireland. He was grateful for it. A man could now only be sentenced to seven years penal servitude, and could not be publicly whipped. What was the genesis of these proceedings? According to general report, before many months were over, the country would be electing a new House of Commons, and the Chief Secretary's Department with others would be under discussion. The great point the right hon. Gentleman had been making was that he had been able to administer Ireland under the ordinary
AYES.
| ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r. | Lowles, John |
| Arnold, Alfred | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Lucas-Shadwell, William |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fisher, William Hayes | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. | M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Flower, Finest | M'Killop, James |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol) | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E. |
| Bethell, Commander | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Galloway, William Johnson | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n |
| Bigwood, James | Garfit, William | Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. |
| Bill, Charles | Gedge, Sydney | Monk, Charles James |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | More, Robert J. (Shropshire) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Morgan, W Pritchard (Merthyr |
| Brassey, Albert | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morrison, James A. (Wilts., S.) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Gull, Sir Cameron | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) |
| Butcher, John George | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir. Edw. H. | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath |
| Cavendish, V. C. W(Derbyshire | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Heath, James | Penn, John |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm. | Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Houston, R. P. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Charrington, Spencer | Howard, Joseph | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Purvis, Robert |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hughes, Colonel Edwin | Pym, C. Guy |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Jackson, Rt. Hn. W. Lawies | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Kenyon, James | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. | Kimber, Henry | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Laurie, Lieut. -General | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn | Rutherford, John |
| Denny, Colonel | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Disraeli, Conings by Ralph | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans. | Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks) |
| Faber, George Denison | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Lowe, Francis William | Spencer, Ernest |
law, and he wanted to be able to keep up the technically correct statement that the Coercion Act had not been enforced. The result was that he had recourse to this other ancient Coercion Act. But that was a policy which would not succeed——
It being Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 15th February last, proceeded to put forthwith every Question necessary to complete the outstanding Reports of Supply.
Question put. "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided:—Ayes, 146; Noes, 47. (Division List No. 278.)
| Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart- |
| Stephens, Henry Charles | Tritton, Charles Ernest | Wyndham, George |
| Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Strauss, Arthur | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L. | |
| Sturt, Hon. Humphry N. | Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Thornton Percy M. | Wilson-Todd, W H. (Yorks.) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Tollemache, Henry James | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh |
| Asher, Alexander | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley | Souttar, Robinson |
| Birrell, Augustine | Griffith, Ellis J. | Steadman, William Charles |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hazell, Walter | Strachey, Edward |
| Brigg, John | Hogan, James Francis | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Jones William (Carnarvonshire | Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) |
| Burt, Thomas | Kearley, Hudson E. | Ure, Alexander |
| Caldwell, James | Lewis, John Herbert | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Cawley, Frederick | M'Leod, John | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Maddison, Fred | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Crilly, Daniel | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Morton, Ed W.J. C. (Devonport) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Dewar, Arthur | Moss, Samuel | Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | |
Resolutions Thirty-two to Thirty-four agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Thirty-fifth Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £752,408, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
AYES.
| ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Coghill, Douglas H. | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon |
| Arnold, Alfred | Collings, Rt. Hon Jesse | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (Manch'r) | Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) | Gull, Sir Cameron |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Cox, Erwin Edward Bainbridge | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. |
| Bethell, Commander | Curzon, Viscount | Haslett, Sir James Horner |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Denny, Colonel | Heath, James |
| Bigwood, James | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hill, Arthur (Down West) |
| Bill, Charles | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Douglas Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Houston, R. P. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Faber, George Denison | Howard, Joseph |
| Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Brassey, Albert | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r | Hughes, Colonel Edwin |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Fisher, William Hayes | Jenkins, Sir John Jones |
| Butcher, John George | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Jessell, Captain H. Merton |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. | Kenyon, James |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Kimber, Henry |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Flower, Ernest | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm. | Galloway, William Johnson | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) | Garfit, William | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Charrington, Spencer | Gedge, Sydney | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swan'a |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary.'"
The House divided:—Ayes, 146; Noes, 46. (Division List No. 279.)
| Lowe, Francis William | Penn, John | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) |
| Lowles, John | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur | Stephens, Henry Charles |
| Lucas-Shadwell, William | Pierpoint, Robert | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Pretyman, Ernest George | Strauss, Arthur |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Sturt, Hon. H. Napier |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Purvis, Robert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| M'Killop, James | Pym, C. Guy | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Manners, Lord Edward W. J. | Rentoul, James Alexander | Tomlinson, W. Edw. Murray |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. | Richards, Henry Charles | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E. | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Melville, Beresford Valentine | Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L |
| Monk, Charles James | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Moore, William (Antrim, N). | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| More, Robert J. (Shropshire) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn E. R.(Bath) |
| Morrison, James A.(Wilts, S.) | Rutherford, John | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wyndham, George |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Spencer, Ernest |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, Wm (Cork, N.E.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Asher, Alexander | Hazell, Walter | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hogan, James Francis | Roberts, J. B. (Eifion) |
| Birrell, Augustine | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Souttar, Robinson |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jones, William (Carnarvon.) | Steadman, William Charles |
| Brigg, John | Kearley, Hudson E. | Strachey, Edward |
| Burt, Thomas | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Caldwell, James | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Ure, Alexander |
| Cawley, Frederick | M'Leod, John | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Maddison, Fred. | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Dewar, Arthur | Morgan, W. Pritch. (Merthyr) | |
| Doogan, F. C. | Morton, Edw.J.(J. (Devonport) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Edwards, Owen Morgan | Moss, Samuel | Mr. Crilly and Mr. Michael Austin. |
| Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
Resolutions Thirty-six to Forty-one agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Forty-second Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £2,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the
AYES.
| ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Bousfield, William Robert | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) |
| Arnold, Alfred | Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm. |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Brassey, Albert | Chamberlain, J Austen(Worc'r |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brigg, John | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Charrington, Spencer |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds | Bullard, Sir Harry | Clare, Octavius Leigh |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Burt, Thomas | Coghill, Douglas Harry |
| Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol) | Butcher, John George | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse |
| Bethell, Commander | Caldwell, James | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Cooke, C.W. Radcliffe (Heref'd |
| Bigwood, James | Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward H. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow |
| Bill, Charles | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. |
| Birrell, Augustine | Cawley, Frederick | Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) | Curzon, Viscount |
sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for a Grant in Aid of the Expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland.'"
The House divided:—Ayes, 179; Noes, 14. (Division List No. 280.)
| Denny, Colonel | Kenyon, James | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Dewar, Arthur | Kimber, Henry | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lawrence, Sir E. D. (Corn.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Faber, George Denison | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mane. | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Swans. | Rutherford, John |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. M. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lowe, Francis William | Seely, Charles Hilton |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Lowles, John | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. | Lucas-Shad well, William | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Macartney W. G. Ellison | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Flower, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming | Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. |
| Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | M'Killop, James | Souttar, Robinson |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Maddison, Fred. | Spencer, Ernest |
| Garfit, William | Manners, Lord Edward W. J. | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) |
| Gedge, Sydney | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Steadman, William Charles |
| Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E. | Stephens, Henry Charles |
| Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | Strachey, Edward |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J. | Strauss, Arthur |
| Gray, Ernest, (West Ham) | Monk, Charles James | Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Gull, Sir Cameron | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. | Morrison, Jas. A. (Wilts., S.) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Morton, Edw. J.C. (Devonport) | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Hazell, Walter | Moss, Samuel | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Heath, James | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute | Whiteley, H. (Asht'n-under-L. |
| Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Houston, R. P. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Howard, Joseph | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Penn, John | Wyndham, George |
| Hughes, Colonel Edwin | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies | Pierpoint, Robert | |
| Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Pretyman, Ernest George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Swan. | Purvis, Robert | |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Pym, C. Guy |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Hogan, James Francis | Ure, Alexander |
| Crilly, Daniel | Jones, William (Carnarvon.) | |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Leod, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Mr. MacNeill and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Edwards, Owen Morgan | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | |
Resolutions Forty-three to Forty-six agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Forty-seventh Resolution, 'That a sum, not exceeding £275,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the
AYES.
| ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Ashton, Thomas Gair | Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) |
| Arnold, Alfred | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Barnes, Frederic Gorell |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r) | Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol |
Charge for the Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges of the War Office, which will come in course of payment, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901.'"
The House divided:—Ayes, 148; Noes, 42. (Division List No. 281.)
| Bethell, Commander | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Bigwood, James | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Bill, Charles | Goschen, Geo. J. (Sussex) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Penn, John |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Green, Walford D(Wednesbury | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Brassey, Albert | Gull, Sir Cameron | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Purvis, Robert |
| Butcher, John George | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pym, C. Guy |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Heath, James | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Houston, R. P. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Howard, Joseph | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hughes, Colonel Edwin | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies | Rutherford, John |
| Charrington, Spencer | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Seely, Charles Hilton |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Kenyon, James | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Kimber, Henry | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. D. T. | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) | Spencer, Ernest |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'sea) | Stephens, Henry Charles |
| Denny, Colonel | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Stirling Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Disraeli, Conings by Ralph | Lowe, Francis William | Strauss, Arthur |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lowles, John | Stint, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Faber, George Denison | Lucas-Shad well, William | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Macdona, John dimming | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Tauntn. |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L. |
| Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne | M'Killop, James | Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Manners, Lord Edward W. J. | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E. R(Bath |
| Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J. | Wyndham, George |
| Flower, Ernest | Monk, Charles James | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Morrison, J. A. (Wilts, S.) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Garfit, William | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | |
| Gedge, Sydney | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Moss, Samuel |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Birrell, Augustine | Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Griffith, Ellis J. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Brigg, John | Hazell, Walter | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh |
| Burt, Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Caldwell, James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Lewis, John Herbert | Souttar, Robinson |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lloyd-George, David | Steadman, William Charles |
| Channing, Francis Allston | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Crilly, Daniel | M'Leod, John | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Maddison, Frei. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Dewar, Arthur | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Doogan, P. C. | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Mr. Ure and Mr. M'Kenna |
Forty-eighth Resolution agreed to.
Supply 17Th July Report
Deferred Resolution [18th July], "That a sum, not exceeding £267,100, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901," agreed to.
Supply 20Th July
Resolutions reported:—
Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates, 1900–1901
Class Iv
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £787,503 (including a Supplementary sum of £95,434), be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, including a Grant in Aid of the Teachers' Pension Fund, Ireland."
Class Iii
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £54,767, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the Expenses of Reformatory and Industrial Schools in Ireland."
Resolutions read a second time, and agreed to.
Supply 27Th July
Resolutions reported:—
Army (Supplementary) Estimate, 1900–1901
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £11,500,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for Additional Expenditure, mainly due to the War in South Africa and to Affairs in China, in respect of the following Army Services, viz.—
| £ | |
| Vote 1. Pay, etc., of the Army | 3,250,000 |
| Vote 2. Medical Establishment: Pay, etc | 350,000 |
| Vote 5. Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances | 500,000 |
| Vote 6. Transport and Remounts | 4,500,000 |
| Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | 850,000 |
| Vote 8. Clothing Establishments and Services | 100,000 |
| Vote 9. Warlike and other Stores | 500,000 |
| Vote 10. Works, etc.: Cost (including Stall for Engineer Services) | 1,060,000 |
| Vote 12. Miscellaneous Effective Services | 140,000 |
| Vote 14. Non - Effective Services, Officers | 250,000 |
| Total | £11,500,000" |
Resolution read a second time, and agreed to.
Ways And Means 2Nd August
Resolution reported:—
"That towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, the sum of £95,234,796 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. James William Lowther, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hanbury.
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill
"To apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March one thousand nine hundred and one, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next.
Military Lands Bill Lords
As amended, considered.
A Clause (County or borough council may lease land and Volunteer corps may borrow on security of lease) ( Mr. Wyndham); brought up, and read the first and second time, amended, and added.
Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Lunacy Board (Scotland) (Salaries, Etc) Bill
Lords Amendment to be considered, forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
Executors (Scotland) Bill
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
Elementary Education Bill
Naval Reserve Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th day of July last, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at ten minutes before Eleven of the clock till Monday next.