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Commons Chamber

Volume 96: debated on Tuesday 2 July 1901

House of Commons

Tuesday, July 2, 1901

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to—

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, without Amendment.

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went; and, being returned,

Private Bill Business

PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO NOT COMPLIED WITH)

laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—

Derwent Valley Water Board Bill

Richmond Gas Bill

Tendring Hundred Water Bill

Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Metropolitan District Railway Bill

Ordered, That, in the case of the Metropolitan District Railway Bill, Standing Orders 84, 214, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration, provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited.—( Mr. Caldwell. )

Bill accordingly considered, as amended.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—( Mr. Caldwell. )

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]

Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Order Confirmation Bill

[Under Section 7, Sub Section (2), of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act), 1899.]

Read the third time, and passed.

Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Bill

Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Dundee Corporation (to be proceeded with under Section 7 of the Act), ordered to be brought in by the Lord Advocate and Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.

Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Bill

"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating, to Dundee Corporation," presented accordingly; and, under 62 and 63 Viet., c. 47, s. 7 (2), ordered to be considered upon Tuesday next.

Standing Orders

Resolution reported from the Committee:—"That, in the case of the Bristol Corporation (Docks and Railways, &c.) Bill [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that proof be given before the Committee on the Bill of the approval of the Bill by the Great Western Railway Company and by the Midland Railway Company, or, in the absence of such proof, provided that Clause 51 be struck out of the Bill:—That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."

Resolution agreed to.

BRISTOL CORPORATION (DOCKS AND RAILWAYS, ETC.) BILL [Lords]

Report [this day] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.—( Mr. Caldwell. )

SOUTH EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [Lords]

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Railway Bills (Group 10)

reported from the Committee on Group 10 of Railway Bills, That Mr. Alfred Pease, one of the Members of the said Committee, was not present at the sitting of the Committee this day.

Report to lie upon the Table.

also reported from the Committee on Group 10 of Railway Bills, That the parties promoting the Bournemouth Corporation Bill had stated that the evidence of Samuel Foster, Superintendent of Hants Constabulary, Bournemouth, was essential to, their case; and, it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Samuel Foster do attend the said Committee to-morrow, at half-past. Eleven of the clock.

Ordered, That Samuel Foster do attend the Committee on Group 10 of Railway Bills To-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

MANCHESTER AND LIVERPOOL ELECTRIC EXPRESS RAILWAY BILL [Lords]

informed the House that the Committee on the Manchester and Liverpool Electric Express Railway, Bill [Lords], not being appointed to meet until Thursday, the parties opposing that Bill had appeared before him and proved that the evidence of Charles Arthur Rowlandson, civil engineer, Great Central Railway, Manchester, was essential to their case, and that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House.

Ordered, That the said Charles Arthur Rowlandson do attend the said Committee on Thursday, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Private Bills (Group N)

reported from the Committee on Group N of Private Bills, That the parties opposing the Local Government ProvisionalOrders (Housing of the Working Classes) (No. 2) Bill had stated that the evidence of Thomas Moore, of Regent Street, Leeds, manager of Bensons, Limited, was essential to their case; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Thomas Moore do attend the said Committee to-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Ordered, That Thomas Moore do attend the Committee on Group N of Private Bills to-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to, Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of the Working Classes) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Housing of the Working Classes) (No. 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (Housing of the Working Classes) Bill; without amendment.

That they have agreed to Amendments to, Chester Gas Bill [Lords]; without amendment.

Petitions

Agricultural Rates Act, 1896

Petition from Rhyl, in favour of re-enactment; to lie upon the Table.

Agricultural Rates Congested Districts and Burgh Land Tax Relief (Scotland) Act, 1896

Petition from Sutherland, in favour of re-enactment; to lie upon the Table.

Cremation Bill

Petition from the Sanitary Institute, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Education Bill

Petition from Blackburn, against; to lie upon the Table.

Education (No. 2) Bill

Petition from Bradford, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Elementary Education

Petition of Personal Rights Association, for the retention of women as members of representative educational authorities; to lie upon the Table.

Factory and Workshop Acts Amendment Bill

Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Finance Bill

Petition from Cardiff, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors to Children Bill

Two Petitions from Blackburn, against; to lie upon the Table.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors to Children Bill

Petitions in favour, from Garston; Warmley; West Hackney; Denbigh; Exeter (two); Woodford (nine); Prestatyn; Wingate; Marylebone; Byker; Witheridge; and Bury St. Edmund's; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Bill

Two Petitions from Blackburn, against; to lie upon the Table.

Sovereign's Oath on Accession Bill

Petition from Sarisbury, against; to lie upon the Table.

Vaccination Bill

Petitions in favour, from Battersea, and Personal Rights Association; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Public Works Loan Board

Copy presented, of Twenty-sixth Annual Report (for 1900–1901), with Appendices [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 246.]

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders

Copies ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill."

"Of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill."

"Of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill."

"Of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill."

"And, of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill."—( Mr. Gerald Balfour. )

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL

Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals included in the Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill."—( Mr. Gerald Balfour. )

Tithe Rent-Charge (Rating) Act, 1899 (Amounts Paid to Administrative Counties and Boroughs)

Return ordered, "showing the amounts paid in respect of each Administrative County or County Borough during the period between the 15th day of September, 1899, and the 31st day of March, 1900, in respect of the payment of half the rates on the Tithe Rent-charge under the Tithe Rent-charge (Rating) Act, 1899."—( Mr. Alfred Button. )

Questions

Questions

South Africa—Jameson Raid—Queen's Hall Meeting of Opponents of the War

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in settling the final terms of peace with the Boers, His Majesty's Government propose to take into consideration the whole of the circumstances attending the Jameson raid; and, if so, will His Majesty's Government consent to grant a Select Committee of this House to reopen and complete the inquiry into that raid with a view more fully to ascertain the origin thereof, the whole of the circumstances attendant thereon, and the persons implicated therein.

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers I should like to ask whether he will take into consideration the action of the people who were responsible for the traitorous meeting lately held at the Queen's Hall.

I rise to order, Sir. I think I heard the hon. Member speak of the meeting at the Queen's Hall as a traitorous meeting.

* : Order, order! The hon. Member's question was irregular and I stopped it, but an hon. Member is not prevented from applying any terms which he pleases to meetings outside the House.

In answer to the question on the Paper, I have to say that we do not propose to reopen this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Colonial Secretary has been distinctly accused of complicity in the raid?

Hawksley-Rhodes-Harris Correspondence

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state on what grounds he bases his refusal to lay upon the Table of the House the correspondence between Mr. Hawksley, the solicitor of the Chartered Company, and the Colonial Secretary, accompanying and following the Return of the Rhodes-Hawksley-Harris Correspondence dealing with the alleged complicity of the Colonial Office in the plot against the Transvaal, which was lent by Mr. Hawksley to the Colonial Secretary at his request.

I do not admit the correctness of the description given by the hon. Member of the correspondence in question, but I would refer him to my reply of 7th August last, † to which I have nothing to add.

I will now ask this further question. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been stated that this correspondence proves his complicity in the raid?

* : Order, order! That does not arise out of the question or the answer, and it is not a proper question to ask.

Farm Burning

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether farms belonging to Boers who are prisoners of war in St. Helena and Ceylon, have been burnt by His Majesty's forces in South Africa, and whether any compensation will be given to men whose farms were burnt when they were prisoners of war.

I am only aware of one case mentioned in the Return of farms burnt. I can give no opinion on the question of compensation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the telegrams which his own Press Censor passed it is positively stated that farms of prisoners of war have been burnt?

I am not responsible for any telegrams except those which come from Lord Kitchener.

Mrs. Kruger

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether despatches have passed between Lord Kitchener and the Secretary of State for War as to the advisability of permitting Mrs. Kruger, the wife of Mr. Kruger, to remain in the Transvaal.

Soldiers' Pensions

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what is the scale of pensions paid to the soldiers who fought in the Crimean War, and how that scale compares with the pensions which will be received by those engaged in the present war.

The rates of pension for soldiers who fought in the Crimea ranged—(1) for wounds or injuries from 8d. to 3s. a day, according to rank and degree of injury; (2) for disabilities wholly due to war service from 6d. if under fourteen years service, to 1s. 7d. if over fourteen years service; and (3) for service, after twenty-one years, from (8d. to 2s. 6d. a day, with an additional grant for good conduct badges up to 6d., according to rank and length of service. The present rates are—for wounds or injuries, including disabilities wholly due to war service, from 6d. to 3s. 6d. a day, according to rank and degree of injury, and for service (after twenty-one years) from 1s. 1d. to 3s. 6d. a day, with an additional grant for service beyond twenty-one years, according to rank and length of service.

Pensions—Case of Thomas Mackie

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Thomas Mackie, who had served as a soldier for twenty-one years in the 42nd and 79th Highland regiments, has been deprived of his pension of £33 9s. 8d. a year; and can he state what condition or regulation this man had violated to justify this penalty.

This man was struck off the pension list in 1896 by the Chelsea Commissioners on account of his gross misconduct in having made unfounded and scandalous accusations against an officer. As an act of grace, portion of his pension was restored in 1899.

Militiamen in South Africa

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state how many militiamen have been sent to South Africa during the present war; how many of these men were under the age of twenty when sent; and how many regular recruits under the age of twenty, and therefore ineligible for foreign service with their regular units, were subsequently sent to South Africa attached to Militia battalions.

The total number of Militia sent out during the war is. 28,039. Roughly speaking, about 8,500 would be under twenty, and the number of regular recruits under twenty attached, to the Militia was about 4,100.

How many are under the age of sixteen? How many have been kidnapped?

Third Dorset Militia

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the 3rd Dorset Regiment, having now been embodied since 14th December, 1899, and having been in Ireland since 9th March, 1901, can now be disembodied.

Third Battalion Gordon Highlanders

I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can now state what decision has been arrived at by the War Office with reference to the disembodiment of the 3rd Gordon Highlanders, now serving at Aldershot.

But it has been stated in the press that a decision, has been arrived at.

Small Arm Ammunition for Machine Guns

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what was the cause of the failure of the small-arm ammunition in the recent machine gun competition at Aldershot, and by whom the faulty ammunition was manufactured.

Military Disturbance at Shorncliffe

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give the names, rank, regiment, and length of sentence, in each case, of the soldiers recently convicted by court-martial of mutiny at Shorncliffe; whether he can explain the cause of the mutiny, and lay the full report of the proceedings of the court-martial upon the Table of the House.

Two soldiers were tried at Shorncliffe, one for creating a disturbance and for also firing ball cartridge, and one for offering violence to his superior officer. A sentence of twelve months imprisonment with hard labour was awarded for the latter offence, and two years and discharge for the former. As I told the hon. Member before, there was no mutiny, only a quarrel. It is not considered necessary to lay the proceedings on the Table of the House.

Is it not because they are Irish? But I will get them all the same.

Admiralty Horse Fittings on Transports

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the names of the ships in which the Admiralty fittings for carrying horses were substituted for the ordinary trade fittings, the time occupied by such change, and the cost in each case.

The ships in which the Admiralty horse fittings were substituted for the ordinary trade horse fittings were "British Princess," one hundred horse stalls; "St. Andrew," fifty horse stalls;. "Cymric," seventy horse stalls. No extra time was occupied in the change, and no expense was incurred by Government.

Gibraltar as a Naval Base

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the present condition of the Mediterranean Fleet and the importance of Gibraltar as a naval base for that fleet, His Majesty's Government will agree to the appointment of a Select Secret Committee of this House to examine and consider all official Reports upon the defensibility of Gibraltar made to His Majesty's Government during the last seven years, and in the possession either of the Foreign Office, the War Office, the Colonial Office, or the Admiralty; if so, whether they will cause in especial to be laid before that Committee the Report of Captain S. Buckle, R. E., dated 17th January, 1894; of General Sir John C. Ardagh, C.B., Director of Military Intelligence, dated 1st May, 1900; of General Sir Robert Biddulph, G.C.B., Governor of Gibraltar, dated 28th December, 1900; of Major-General F. G. Slade, C.B., commanding the Artillery at Gibraltar, and Colonel J. F. Lewis, R.E., dated 4th February, 1901; and of General Sir George White, V.C., G.C.B. Governor of Gibraltar, dated 9th February, 1901; and, if not, will they state the general effect of the six Reports in question as regards the tenability of the western side of Gibraltar as a naval, base.

I do not think that such a Select Committee as my hon. friend suggests would be really for the public advantage.

Indian Civil Service—Compensation Allowances

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has given orders that claims advanced by public servants in India for compensation allowance, under regulations he has sanctioned, are to be finally decided by the Government of India except in cases where new or doubtful points are raised which are not covered by the rules; whether this limitation on the right of appeal to the Secretary of State from decisions of the Government of India is intended to apply to cases in which that Government fails or declines to inform the claimant on what point or points under the rules they hold him not to be entitled to compensation; and whether, in any case, when the Government of India fails or refuses to state the grounds of its decision to any officer who appeals to it under these or any other regulations, he will allow such officer to submit his case directly to the Secretary of State for revision.

* : The Government of India have been authorised to give a final decision upon all cases of exchange compensation allowance which are provided for in the regulations approved by the Secretary of State. But if any officer memorialises the Secretary of State against the refusal of the Government of India to give reasons for a decision in which he is concerned, then, whether that decision relates to a case of exchange compensation, or to any other matter his memorial will be dealt with under the general rules applicable to memorials, and may or may not be forwarded to the Secretary of State according to the merits of the case.

Indian Staff Officers' Allowances for the Chinese Campaign

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that a cavalry officer of the Indian Staff Corps has by regulation to take on service four pers nal attendants, namely, one body servant and three syces, and that the cost of extra clothing for these servants for the China campaign has amounted to about Rs.286, or more than a month's pay for a subaltern; and whether the German officers in China had an extra allowance of £1 per day, and whether any decision has yet been arrived at by the War Office in regard to the question of a supplementary allowance to Indian Staff Officers serving in China on account of the extra expenses entailed upon them; and, if not, when a decision may be expected.

I am aware that a cavalry officer has to take four servants with him on active service, but I do not know what was the cost of their outfit on this occasion. I am informed that the German officers were granted for this China Expedition a special "equipment allowance" according to rank. For subalterns it was about 10s. a day. British officers with the expedition have been granted special concessions on account of quarters, fuel, and lighting; and in Hong Kong and Shanghai an extra sum on account of the high cost of living generally.

Official Language in the Mauritius

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is any intention to substitute the English language in Mauritius for French as the official language; and whether, having regard to the inconvenience and the unpopularity with the inhabitants of the Mauritius of such a change, he will be able to give an assurance that there will be no alteration in the long-established official language of this island.

The information in the possession of the hon. Member appears to be somewhat antiquated, because English has been the official language for sixty years.

Expulsion of a Member of the Victorian Assembly

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Mr. Findlay, a member of the Legislative Assembly of Victoria, has been expelled the Assembly for having published a reprint of an article which appeared in the Irish World ; whether the Premier of the Colony communicated with the Colonial Office before taking this action; and whether the expulsion of Mr. Findlay was recommended as a punishment for his offence.

I have no information as to the expulsion referred to beyond what has appeared in the press. No communication was addressed to His Majesty's Government with reference to the proposed expulsion, and no recommendation has been tendered by the Colonial Office on this subject, as the matter was one for the responsible Government of the colony to deal with.

British Consulates—Faroe Islands

* : I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a paid consul has lately been appointed to reside in the Faroe Islands, and, if so. at what salary; and can he explain why this post has been preferred over several recently abolished in Asia Minor arid elsewhere; and whether changes made from time to time in the list of paid vice consulates and consulates can be brought directly to the knowledge of Parliament.

* : In April of last year the unpaid vice consul at Thorshaven, a gentleman of Danish nationality was replaced by a consul with a salary of £400 and an allowance of £100 for office expenses. It had been represented that in view of the troubles which had recently occurred in connection with fishery questions, and the importance of the interests involved, it was desirable that a salaried consulate should be established in the Faroe Islands, and the arguments in favour of this course convinced the Secretary of State that such an appointment was urgently required. Every change in the list of paid consulates and vice consulates is shown in the annual Estimates laid before Parliament.

Thibetan Embassy to Russia

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the so-called Thibetan Embassy has reached St. Petersburg and is about to be received by His Majesty the Tsar, he can now give the House any information upon the subject; and will he state whether any communication concerning this so-called embassy has been addressed to the Russian Government.

* : We have heard that a mission from Thibet has arrived in Russia, but we are without detailed information as to its character. His Majesty's Government have not addressed any communication to the Russian Government on the subject.

asked if the noble Lord was in a position to state whether he would be able at a future time to make a statement on the subject.

* : Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question, on the subject.

Uganda Railway

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state how many times the Crown Agents for the colonies have been obliged to fill up steamers chartered for the carriage of material for the Uganda Railway with Welsh coal, what the price was at which they purchased the said coal, and which Welsh port they loaded, at.

* : No Uganda Railway steamers have been obliged to fill up with coal, coal having only been shipped to fulfil the requirements of the railway.

Coal Duty

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in respect of coal contracts entered into prior to the 19th April, and deposited with the Customs with a view to securing a remission of duty, he will state the quantity of coal sold under covered contracts for delivery between the 31st December and the end of the financial year and subsequently, and also the quantities in the case of uncovered contracts sold for delivery up to the end of December, the end of March, and subsequently.

I am not in a position to give the information for which the hon. Member asks. The evidence of cover has not yet been completely examined, and it is possible that more such evidence than that already given to the Customs may be adduced; so that I might only be misleading the House if 1 gave the figures he asks for at present.

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state what steps will be taken by the Customs to ascertain the proportion of the cargo liable to duty in the case of shipments of through and through coal where the large is of a value exceeding 6s. per ton, and the small of a value below that value, and consequently entitled to a remission of the duty; whether he is aware that Cardiff steam coal when screened a second time at the port of shipment produces nearly 10 per cent. of what are known as dock screenings; and will exported coal screened only at the Colliery be allowed a partial or proportionate remission on the amount of small contained, when the value of dock screenings is below 6s. per ton; and, if so, how will the amount be ascertained.

The Customs will not take the initiative in such a case. It will be for the exporter of the coal who has paid the duty upon it to prove his claim to a rebate, in respect of some portion of the cargo, if he so desires. In a given consignment of coal at, say, 10s. a ton, there might be some proportion of dust which, if separated from the large coal of which it is the refuse, might sell for less than 6s. a ton. But unless it formed a separate consignment and sale, at a separate price, distinguishable from the rest of the cargo, it could not be recognised as a subject of rebate.

Duty on Pitch for Patent Fuel

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as under the operation of Clause 3 of the Finance Bill, as amended in Committee, no duty will be charged on the pitch used in the manufacture of patent fuel when the coal ingredient can be bought at a price below 6s. per ton, but the full duty will be charged on pitch when the manufacturer is compelled to pay a higher price for the coal ingredient; and, seeing that pitch exported from this country free of duty is largely used by fuel manufacturers abroad who compete with those in this country, will he on the Report stage of the Finance Bill provide for a drawback on patent fuel equal in amount to that levied on the pitch ingredient used in its manufacture.

The amount of pitch used in the manufacture of patent fuel does not, I believe, exceed 10 per cent., so that, having regard to the value of the article, the question of competition with foreign manufacturers does not seem very important. But I shall be prepared to consider an Amendment of the kind suggested in the Question, if it should be placed on the Paper for Report.

Marine Insurance

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been directed to the inconvenience which has arisen in consequence of a decision affecting the validity of the Continuation Clause in policies of marine insurance; and whether he will consider the possibility of introducing provisions into the Finance Bill which will meet this difficulty.

My attention has been directed to this matter by a communication from shipowners and underwriters, and I think that an amendment of the law with regard to it is required. I was prepared to accept the clause which my hon. friend put on the Paper, but I found it could not be moved without a previous resolution in Committee of the House, and with that object I have placed on the Paper for this evening a resolution in Committee of Ways and Means, which I propose to take before the Budget is further proceeded with.

Great Malvern Police Court

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that it is the practice of the magistrates at Great Malvern Police Court to deal at the sitting of the court with all applications to the bench (such as applications for extension of hours at public-houses) except applications for certificates of exemption from vaccination, but to make parents applying for such certificates wait until the business is over, with the result that these applicants sometimes have to wait in court for three and four hours, and whether he will suggest to the magistrates that they should treat these applicants as they do others.

* : I am informed that applications for certificates of exemption from vaccination are postponed till after ordinary business at the court in question, but that in this respect they are treated in the same way as all other applications except licensing applications. The arrangement of business is entirely in the discretion of the court, and I have no power to interfere.

I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman has no power to interfere, but could he not make a suggestion, which would be of value coming from him?

* : No; I am afraid I cannot do that. I do not care to make suggestions to which I can give no practical effect, and which the justices might not see their way to adopt. But perhaps the fact of the hon. Member having put the question may have the desired effect.

Racing Advertisements

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government propose to take steps to prevent the advertising in the newspapers of the United Kingdom of racing or other competitions carried on abroad of the description which were, in the recent case of Regina v. Stoddart, held to be illegal when carried on in this country.

* : I am not satisfied with the present state of the law, but His Maejsty's Government do not propose to introduce any legislation on this subject this session.

Stratford-On-Avon Election Disturbances

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to what has taken place at Stratford-on-Avon during the recent election, when, of the four Liberal meetings held there, all were disturbed and three were broken up, and is he aware, that, on Monday night last, the Liberal committee-room was broken open; and whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the reports to the Home Office as to the part taken by the police in endeavouring to maintain order.

* : It is no part of the duty of the police to enter or interfere, within the building in the case of political meetings within doors unless summoned to suppress actual breach of the peace. So far as the preservation of order generally is concerned, I have no reason to suppose that they fell short of their duty in any way on these occasions. I am informed that there is no truth in the report of a Liberal committee-room having been broken open on the 24th June. The answer to the last paragraph is in the negative.

I had intended to move the adjournment of the House in order to call attention to the conduct of the police during the recent election at Stratford-on-Avon, but since I put a question on the Paper the hon. Member for Peckham has given notice of a motion to call attention to the disturbances at the same election. I wish to know whether the terms of that motion exclude a motion for adjournment.

* : That is so. The notice of motion on the Paper is so wide as to cover any possible motion for adjournment on the matter.

Railway Profits in Great Britain

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that the net profit on the working of the twenty principal railways in Great Britain shows a diminution in the first six months of 1901, compared to the corresponding period last year, of over £1,600,000, and that this involves a passing or reduction of dividends in home railways, whether he will consider the desirability of appointing a small Expert Committee to consider whether the working of the railways at a reasonable profit is hampered by legislative restrictions or the rules connected with them.

No, Sir; I do not think there is a prima facie case for such a Committee. I believe my hon. and gallant friend will find that the diminution, whatever it may be (his figure relates to a period which only expired yesterday), is sufficiently accounted for by the increase in the price of coal, cost of wages, and rise in rates and taxes.

Compensation to Seamen for Accidents

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has had any reply from the owners of the sailing ship "Kelburn" with regard to the accident which happened to a seaman named Ernest Franklin, now an inmate of the Hamydriad Hospital, Cardiff, and whether the owners intend to offer this man substantial compensation; and whether he intends to take any action against the captain for forcibly taking to sea Ernest Franklin while suffering from severe injuries requiring immediate medical attendance.

Yes, Sir. The owners of the "Kelburn" inform me that the seaman in question, being desirous of being shipped to Cape Town or Rangoon, they have expressed willingness to send him in one of their ships, and to give him a small money present for his outfit. As regards the action of the master of the "Kelburn" further inquiries shall be made upon the return of the vessel, which is now due at Valparaiso, to this country.

Market Returns

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can arrange for the official returns of prices received under the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Act, 1891, to be published, weekly instead of quarterly.

The question of accelerating the publication of the official prices is under the consideration of Lord Mansfield's Committee on Scottish Agricultural Prices. I hope to receive their Report, at an early date, but meanwhile any further statement on the subject would be premature.

Swine Fever

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if there is any information in his Department to show whether swine fever can be produced spontaneously in an animal which has never been in any infected place.

There is no information whatever to show that the disease can be produced spontaneously—on the contrary, a strong Expert Committee appointed in 1895, which sat during nearly two years, reported unanimously that swine fever was due to the introduction from a diseased pig of a special bacillus into the system of the healthy Pig.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman of the opinion that a good deal of swine fever is produced by compensation?

Yes; I think I expressed that opinion pretty clearly in Committee. The effect of the present, law is ridiculous, as the Board of Agriculture have no power to award compensation for less than the value of the sound pig.

Badcaul Pier (Ross-Shire)

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Congested Districts Board have yet arranged to provide a grant towards the construction of a pier at Badcaul, Little Lochbroom, Ross-shire.

* : I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that the matter referred to by the hon. Member has been considered, but that they informed the county clerk of Ross-shire on the 21st ult. that they are not prepared to give the grant for a steamer pier at Badcaul on the ground that they have quite recently aided in the erection of a pier in the most necessitous part of Little Lochbroom, and in the immediate neighbourhood of the proposed pier.

New Road in the Island of Lewis

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, as representing the Secretary for Scotland, if he will state what arrangements have been arrived at in regard to the route for the new road between Gravir and Cromore, in the Park District of the Island of Lewis.

* : I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that on 10th June they informed the county council and the Lewis District Committee that they are prepared to agree to this road being constructed according to the plan and specification and on the line of Mr. Fraser, C.E. The Congested Districts Board have voted a grant of £2,700 for the road on this line on the usual conditions.

Clyde Mussel Beds

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the mussel beds in the estuary of the Clyde at Port Glasgow have since 1897 been leased to Dr. J. H. Fullerton at an annual rent of £1 per annum; that the yield of the beds to the fishermen who make their livelihood out of them amounted last year to £1,400; and that Dr. Fullerton, prior to his becoming the lessee under the Crown of these mussel beds, held the position of adviser to the Fishery Board, and had whilst acting in that capacity conducted an investigation into the value of these particular beds; and seeing that the fishermen do not acquiesce in the new arrangement, whether he will agree to state a mutual case to be submitted for the judgment of the Court of Session as to the legal right of the fishermen to work the mussel beds as they were accustomed to do prior to 1897.

* : I am aware that the Clyde mussel beds were let by the Fishery Board after public advertisement to Dr. Fullerton. This step was taken in the interests of the cultivation of bait supply, which in these beds were being ruined by want of management. The question of right is at this moment sub judice , as an action is in dependence in the court of session, and there is no room for the presentation of a special case.

Illegal Trawling Convictions

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, as representing the Secretary for Scotland, whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to provide that any person or persons, not in the pay of a State Department, through whose evidence a conviction is obtained against the master of a vessel engaged in illegal trawling, shall receive a proportion of any sum of money levied as a fine, or which may arise from the sale of any gear or other article confiscated under an order of the court.

* : The Secretary for Scotland is of opinion, in which I concur, that it would not be desirable to alter the present procedure in the direction suggested by the hon. Member. Consultation with the Fishery Board has confirmed him in this view.

South Uist and Barra Mails

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the Postmaster General has received copies of resolutions passed at various public meetings in South Uist and Barra, asking that the mails for these places in future should be sent via Mallaig instead of via Oban; and, as the distance from Mallaig to South Uist is 56 miles, and from Oban 105 miles, will the Postmaster General be able to accede to the desires of the inhabitants of these islands.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY
(Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)

The Postmaster General has received copies of resolutions from South Uist and Barra asking that the mails for those places should be sent by way of Mallaig, and he will endeavour to ascertain whether arrangements could be made to afford a better service to the islands by way of Mallaig instead of by way of Oban. No offer has at present been received to run a line of steamers by way of Mallaig. The Postmaster General does not think it likely that such a service can be established in the near future.

The Parliamentary Debates

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state why proof reports of questions and speeches should take four days to reach Members of Parliament, while proof reports of proceedings before Private Bill Committees are received by them on the following day; and why the revised debates should not reach Members for twelve days after the date of the debate; whether he is aware that unrevised copies of the debates are supplied to the Members of the House of Commons and the Senate of Canada on the day following that on which the speeches are delivered; that Members are also supplied at the same time with proofs of their own speeches; and that, in the South Australian Parliament, Members are usually supplied with the proofs of their speeches on the day following delivery; and whether, in future, the official reporting arrangements of the Imperial Parliament will be brought up to the standard of the Canadian Parliament.

I beg also to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state what limit of time is stipulated in the contract with the official reporter within which proofs of speeches and the official report of the debates must respectively be supplied to Members who desire, to have a copy of the report.

Clause 5 of the conditions of contract prescribes that proofs are to be sent to Members on the third day, excluding Sundays, after the delivery of the speeches, and the report is to be published on the seventh day. These limits of time were fixed on the recommendation of the Joint Select Committee on Debates and Proceedings in Parliament which sat in 1888. The present contract expires next year, and before a new contract is made I will consider whether the time allowed should be further restricted. I have no information as to the practice of the Canadian and South Australian Parliaments in this matter.

In December next year, unless the House is sitting, in which case the contract continues till the close of the session.

Is it not the fact that every effort is being made by the contractors to meet the reasonable wishes of Members, and that there is a considerable improvement in the reports?

May I ask whether, in view of the long time which must elapse before the close of the contract and the delays which now occur, it would not be possible to make arrangements for a revision of the contract, in order that Members of this Parliament may have the same facilities of following the debates as the Members of colonial Parliaments.

I do not think it would be desirable that I should terminate the contract before it will naturally expire, but I propose to communicate with the contractors as to whether they can do anything to meet the views expressed in the hon. Gentleman's question. That is a matter for them and not for me as long as the contract runs.

Dundonnell Mails

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, having regard to the fact that, under the acceleration of the train service from Dingwall to Kyle during July, August, September, and October, the mail will reach Ullapool at 5 p.m. instead of 5.40 p.m. as at present, will arrangements be made for the Dundonnell letters to be delivered during those months on the evening of their arrival at Ullapool.

Notwithstanding the proposed earlier arrival of the mail at Ullapool during July, August, September and October, it is not practicable to arrange for the Dundonnell letters to be delivered during those months on the evening of their arrival at Ullapool. Under such an arrangement the Dundonnell postman could not reach his home until half an hour after midnight, and the Postmaster General would not be justified in authorising a duty of this kind.

Motor Cars at London Park Entrances

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that motor cars are being run across the entrances by which equestrians enter the public parks at a speed of forty miles an hour; and whether he will have regulations adopted by which the drivers of such cars shall be compelled to slow down to a speed not exceeding six miles an hour when passing such entrances.

I was not aware of the fact alluded to in the first paragraph of my hon. friend's question. The pace of motor cars is regulated by the general law, and not by the Parks Regulation Act; and the Metropolitan Police, who regulate the traffic, and who are responsible for law and order in Hyde Park, have the same powers of controlling the traffic in the Park as they have outside.

Potato Spraying in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Board of Agriculture will take any steps to supply cheap potato sprayers to district councils or boards of guardians in Ireland during the present season.

The Department is not prepared to supply potato sprayers in the manner suggested. These machines stand in the same category as hand separators and other agricultural implements, and the reply given by me on the 10th instant

Monaghan and Cavan Lunatic Asylum

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state approximately the sum expended upon buildings and repairs of the Monaghan and Cavan Lunatic Asylum for the two years preceding the time that the new bodies came into power on the Asylum Board under the Local Government Act, and the corresponding expenditure for the two succeeding years; whether he is aware that works proceeding at present at the asylum have exceeded the original estimate by about £5,000; and whether he can state if the Board of Works inspector is the cause of this excess, or who is responsible for it.

The sums expended in the two periods referred to were £9,213 and £18,989, respectively. The expenditure on works now being carried out has exceeded the original estimate by about £5,000. The responsibility rests solely in the local committee of management of the asylum.

Longford Fair Rent Cases

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland can he state the number of applications to fix fair rents at present pending in the union

* See Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. xciv., page 1489.

of Longford for first term and second term rents respectively, and when will the next court of Sub-Commission sit in Longford, and how many of these cases will be set down for hearing before it.

The numbers are ten and seventy-five respectively. A Sub-Commission will sit at Longford on the 10th instant for the hearing of cases already listed from this union. It is not at present possible to fix a date for the hearing of the cases not yet listed.

Longford Jurors' List

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether he is aware that, at revision of jurors' sessions in Longford county, County Court Judge Curran has refused to place on the list of jurors purchasers under the Land Acts in Ireland who are entered on the rate books as owners in fee, thereby acquiring the status of freeholders; and whether he will propose legislation to enable such persons where the value of the purchased holding exceeds or amounts to £10 yearly to become qualified to act as jurors.

I have been informed that Judge Curran made some decision on this matter, the particulars of which I have been unable, as yet, to ascertain. I cannot think, however, that the learned judge could, as the hon. Member apparently supposes, have decided that a tenant who was qualified to be returned as a juror should lose that qualification on purchasing his holding. If any such decision was made I will consider whether it cannot be reviewed. I do not think any legislation is desirable as to the qualification of jurors.

Irish Local Government Board Report

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the importance of the contents of the Annual Report of the Local Government Board, he will direct in future issues that an alphabetical index be printed at the end of it, as is done in the case of the Report of the English Local Government Board.

R.I.C.—Protestant and Roman Catholic Candidates

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he state under what Act of Parliament, or what Provision of the Constabulary Code, the Adjutant of the Royal Irish Constabulary or other officers have issued the order that Protestant candidates for the Royal Irish Constabulary are to get the preference over Roman Catholics.

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers may I ask whether, since the outbreak of the South African War, Protestant young men who are eligible for the Royal Irish Constabulary have not joined the Yeomanry for active service?

I have no doubt it is the case. Separate rosters are kept of those candidates for the Constabulary who are of the Protestant and Roman Catholic religion. It is for the public advantage that the proportion between the two denominations in the force should approximate, as closely as possible, to the proportion among the people of the districts in which they serve. In the South of Ireland a proportion of about 75 per cent. of Roman Catholics is aimed at, and in the North about 65 per cent. This can only be effected by the calling forward of recruits in the manner I have referred to, but the matter is not regulated by Act of Parliament or the Constabulary Code.

I have told the hon. Member it is not done under Act of Parliament, but it is an act of administration necessary to secure the object aimed at.

Ardagh National School

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury can he now make any statement as to the claim by the manager of Ardagh National School for the refund of the amount expended by him in erecting and finishing the school at Ardagh in consequence of the insufficiency of the estimate under Plan 6a of the Board of Works.

No further payment can be made on account of the school itself, but a claim by the manager in connection with expenditure on the teacher's residence has been received and is now under consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when a decision will be arrived at? It has been held over a very long time.

I hope in a very short time. I have seen a letter from the manager thanking the Chairman of the Board of Works for the consideration shown in the matter; it is, I think, an indication that the question is being pushed forward.

Fermoy and Cork Railway

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Great Southern and Western Railway Amalgamation Bill was passed through Parliament and £90,000 given by the Treasury on the condition that a line of railway should be constructed from Fermoy to Cork, and that a time was specified within which that line should be made; can he state the dates fixed for commencing and completing the making of the line; and, if not, whether the Treasury will take any and what action in the matter to see the decision of Parliament carried into effect.

No money has yet been paid by the Treasury to the company and no payment is due until half of the works upon each section of the proposed lines are completed. The Act did not fix a date for the commencement of the new works, but it stipulated that they were to be completed by August, 1904. As I stated yesterday, I believe that work has not been begun upon the Fermoy-Dunkettle section. I am in communication with the company and the Irish Government upon the subject, and am not yet in a position to make any statement as to what action the Treasury will take. But I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as a decision is reached.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Act was passed on the express condition that this line should be made?

Irish National Education Board—Archbishop Walsh's Resignation

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the public statements made by the Archbishop of Dublin, setting forth his reasons for resigning his seat on the Board of National Education in Ireland; and whether the Government are prepared to institute such a public inquiry into the state of facts disclosed by the Archbishop as his Grace demands.

Yes, Sir. I have read reports of two interviews accorded by Archbishop Walsh to representatives of the press, in which he is stated to have expressed the opinion that a Parliamentary inquiry was desirable. The hon. Member will, I think, allow that in any case the formulation of the specific charges either by or on behalf of Archbishop Walsh seems a necessary preliminary even to the consideration of the question whether a Parliamentary inquiry could be usefully instituted. Should such an inquiry be found desirable it should not, I submit, take place until the process of coping with arrears of work, which has already been attended by a large measure of success, is completed or approaches completion. A vast amount of clerical and actuarial labour has been thrown on the National Board of Education owing to the introduction of the new rules.

Is it not a fact that specific charges have been formulated by Archbishop Walsh in the interviews to which reference has been made?

I will not discuss whether they are specific or not; but I think the hon. Member will agree with me that the Government cannot take into consideration what is said to be a report of an interview which has not been confirmed by the person interviewed. It is clearly within the power of some one to prefer these charges in some more formal manner and bring them under the notice of the Government.

Elementary School Teachers—Tenure of Office

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the decision of the Government not to proceed with the Education Bill, and the consequent diminished demands upon Parliamentary time, he will consider the desirability of providing, by legislation this session, reasonable security of tenure to public elementary school teachers.

I think the demands on Parliamentary time will be sufficient to satisfy the greediest member of this House before the session is ended. But I have already stated that the Government propose to introduce a Bill on this subject, which, if it proved to be uncontroversial, would be passed into law.

The Education Bill

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to his statement last Thursday to the effect that the Education Bill to be introduced is designed to vindicate the essential principle of the Bill now withdrawn, he will reconsider his decision to take the First Reading of this highly controversial proposal under the ten minutes rule.

I think the hon. Member will see that, as the Bill now withdrawn has already been introduced and has passed its First Reading, not under the ten minutes rule, but under the more ancient practice of the House,, it is not really necessary to go through the same form with regard to a measure; which only embodies part of it.

Is it not the fact that the essential principle of that Bill was hotly contested in this House?

I do not think that the hon. Member is correct in his representation.

Business of the House

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will name an early day for the discussion of the Irish Education Vote. I may explain that we wish to discuss the position of affairs caused by the resignation of Archbishop Walsh of his seat on the Board of Education.

I should very much desire to have an early date for the discussion of the Education Vote; and although I do not like to pledge myself at the present moment, I should suggest that Friday week would be the proper time.

I hope that the important business here will detain the hon. Member in the House of Commons on that day.

If, as I hope, we conclude the Committee stage of the Budget Bill at an early period of the evening, we shall then take the Supply on the Paper. I have been very careful to put down Votes which I hope are uncontroversial, and the reason I have done so is that I think it very desirable, in the interests of Supply, that we should get a large number of Votes. At the present time we are very much behind in the actual number of Votes passed.

Youthful Offenders Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Law, etc.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 247.]

Minutes of Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 247.]

Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 247.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure:—Mr. Fenwick (added in respect of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors to Children Bill); and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Donal Sullivan.

further reported from the Committee: That they had added to the Standing Committee on Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure the following Fifteen Members in respect of the Beer Bill:—Sir Harry Bullard, Mr. Chaplin, Sir Michael Foster, Sir Edward Greene, Mr. Groves, Sir William Harcourt, Colonel Kenyon-Slaney, Mr. Lambert, Mr. Fletcher Moulton, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Price, Mr. Purvis, Sir Cuthbert Quilter, Mr. Joseph Walton, and Mr. Samuel Young.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to, Isolation Hospitals Bill, without amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to declare the Law in regard to the reform of the Convocations of Canterbury and York, and to make provision for joint sittings of the said Convocations." Convocations of the Clergy Bill [Lords].

New Bills

EDUCATION (No. 2)

This Bill which I have to ask the leave of the House now to introduce contains substantially two clauses of the measure which I brought in many weeks ago, and the further proceedings in connection with which have been discharged. To these clauses have been added a few words for the purpose of enabling the Local Government Board to bear harmless members of school boards for expenditure which has been bona fide incurred by school boards before the passing of the Bill. The clause is very short, and I will read it to the House—

"Where a school board has at any time during the twelve months immediately preceding July 31, 1901, maintained out of the school fund any school or class to the maintenance of which the school fund is not lawfully applicable, the council of the county or county borough within which the school or class is held or, with the sanction of the Board of Education, any other local authority under the Technical Instruction Acts 1889 and 1891 for the district within which the school or class is held, may empower the school board to carry on for the period of one year from that day the work of the school or class to such extent and on such terms as may be agreed on between such council or local authority and the school board, and to apply to the maintenance of the school or class such sum out of the school fund as the council or local authority may sanction. Where any expenses incurred by a school board in respect of any such school or class before the said day are sanctioned by the Local Government Board, the legality of those expenses shall not be questioned in any court."

As soon as the House gives leave, the Board of Education will send a notice to every county or county borough council informing them of the contents of the Bill, and asking them to make immediate arrangements to enable them to carry out in plenty of time the functions which this Bill imposes upon them. The only addition to the clauses in the Bill is the introduction of the technical instruction committee in addition to the county or county borough council. It is introduced for the purpose of facilitating arrangements being made, because it may be impossible or inconvenient for some county councils to meet, and the other local authority under the Technical Instruction Act will be able to give the permission which is necessary to carry on the school. The Government do not anticipate that these bodies will have any difficulty in discharging the functions cast upon them by Parliament, because the House must remember that, under the Technical Instruction Act, they are the bodies which Parliament has charged with maintaining, providing, and aiding secondary education of a certain kind—what is called technical instruction. That is the kind of instruction which is given in nearly all the schools in question; they are practically schools giving technical instruction. These bodies have ample Parliamentary powers, and, if they had had funds as ample, there would have been no occasion to trouble the House, because they would have been able to make arrangements for the carrying on of these schools without any further statutory authority.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for enabling local authorities to empower school boards temporarily to carry on certain schools, and for sanctioning certain school board expenses."—( Sir John Gorst. )

The extreme brevity of the right hon. Gentleman's statement in introducing this Bill does not remove the objection which many of us feel to the action of the Government in bringing it in under the ten minutes rule. When we recollect the language, which we were not privileged to hear, but which I believe was correctly reported as having been used by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury on Thursday last, we see that the Government regard this measure as one which is intended to establish a very large and far-reaching principle. Although it is true that the Bill now dropped was discussed at length, and that a good deal of light was thrown on the provisions of that Bill, still, in view of what has subsequently occurred, I thinkit is greatly to be regretted that a controversial Bill—a highly controversial Bill—should be introduced under the ten minutes rule. I say it is greatly to be regretted that a Bill of this magnitude should have been introduced in a way which prevents us from having a discussion on the various principles embodied in it—a discussion which, I think, would have been profitable to the House, profitable to the country, and probably advantageous in the light of our future discussions.

Now, Sir, we are all glad, of course, that the Government have dropped their former Bill—[Ministerial cries of "No."]—we are glad for this reason, that it would have been impossible—and I say it in no controversial spirit—it would have been impossible for that Bill to have been adequately discussed in this session. I am sorry that the Government should not have taken the natural sequence of events after dropping the Bill—I am sorry that they did not take the attitude of preserving the status quo upon this very important question for at least another year, until the House had an opportunity of dealing properly with the question. Instead of that, they have taken a course open to the gravest objection. They are seeking to snatch upon a temporary Bill the assertion of an important and far-reaching principle. They are seeking, in fact, to effect what amounts to an educational revolution in this country, and they are trying to do it by a mere side wind. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, in the course of a speech to his followers, said that, if they carried the Bill, they would have affirmed in the clearest and most explicit manner that it was not the school board but the local authority to which they should look for carrying out their great schemes, and that if they did that, even with a temporary measure, it would be well worthy of their efforts. Now I submit that that is not a principle which ought to be affirmed in a temporary measure; and I regard it as singularly injurious to the public interest that it should be attempted in a temporary measure of this kind to establish and carry out what is nothing less than an educational revolution. I may go further and say that if the Government think that they will settle that principle by this Bill they are very much mistaken. We shall not, certainly on this side of the House, accept this Bill as final with regard to that principle. We shall consider it as having been brought in in an improper way and at an unfitting time. We shall hold ourselves perfectly free to raise all the large issues which this proposal involves whenever the Government bring forward their Bill in a subsequent session, and I think the Government will find in the long run that they have not lessened the opposition which their proposal has to face, or lessened the time to be devoted to the subject.

I have another objection to the course the Government are taking. They are endeavouring to set up an entirely new principle, a principle which involves, to my mind, the maximum amount of difficulty and friction. They are proposing to subject one popularly-elected body, elected for a particular purpose, to another popularly-elected body elected for another purpose, and for such a course as that I think there is no precedent in our legislation. I know of no other case in which Parliament has expressly delegated a particular function to one popularly elected body, and has placed that body under the control of another authority elected for an entirely different purpose. Then, they propose to subject a body which possesses special knowledge and experience to a body which possesses neither. It is admitted that the county and borough councils do not possess that special knowledge and experience. I do not know whether the responsible decree will rest with the technical instruction committee to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, or with the county and borough councils, but I gather that in the last resort it rests with the county borough councils. But the county and borough councils for this purpose are uninstructed bodies, and the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman have not removed my objection, because the technical work done by the Technical Instruction Committees is by no means the same thing as the work that has been done in the higher grade schools and in the evening continuation schools. If they have done a larger work, it has been a different kind of work, and work with which technical instruction committees have not necesarily come into contact. Therefore, I cannot admit for a moment that the technical instruction committees are competent to control and revise the action of the school boards in these matters. Lastly, the proposal of the Government is to throw work on the county and borough councils, work for which they are unsuited in many ways, and which they were unwilling in many cases to assume or discharge. These considerations, taken together, therefore appear to me to show that the Government have, on the whole, taken the very worst possible course that could be taken in this matter; that their course will produce the maximum of inconvenience to these most important and useful schools, and a great deal of friction between the two sets of local authorities. I consider that course to be such an unfortunate one that I think all true friends of education are bound now, and hereafter, to give this Bill a firm and determined opposition.

The motion being opposed, Mr. Speaker put the Question thereupon in pursuance of Standing Order No. 16.

The House divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 174. (Division List No. 305.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Aird, Sir John

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Bignold, Arthur

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Allsopp, Hon. George

Bigwood, James

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Coddington, Sir William

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bond, Edward

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Arrol, Sir William

Boulnois, Edmund

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Brassey, Albert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Bagot, Capt. Joceline FitzRoy

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Cranborne, Viscount

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Brymer, William Ernest

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Balcarres, Lord

Butcher, John George

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Baldwin, Alfred

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Crossley, Sir Savile

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Cust, Henry John C

Balfour, Maj. KR (Christchurch

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Banbury, Frederick George

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor

Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

Bartley, George C. T.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Denny, Colonel

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Dickson, Charles Scott

Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury)

Rankin, Sir James

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Knowles, Lees

Ratcliff, R. F.

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Law, Andrew Bonar

Remnant, James Farquharson

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lawson, John Grant

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.

Rentoul, James Alexander

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge)

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Robinson, Brooke

Finch, George H.

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Fisher, William Hayes

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Round, James

Fison, Frederick William

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

Russell, T. W.

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Macdona, John Cumming

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Fletcher, Sir Henry

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Flower, Ernest

Maconochie, A. W.

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick. S. W.

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Galloway, William Johnson

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B. (Cambs.

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Majendie, James A. H.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Gore, Hn. GRC. Ormsby-(Salop.

Malcolm, Ian

Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

Manners, Lord Cecil

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Maxwell, WJH. (Dumfriesshire

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

Graham, Henry Robert

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Stock, James Henry

Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS. Edm'nds

Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

Strutt, Hn. Chas. Hedley

Gretton, John

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Mitchell, William

Thornton, Percy M.

Gunter, Sir Robert

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Tollemache, Henry James

Guthrie, Walter Murray

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Hain, Edward

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

Valentia, Viscount

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Morrell, George Herbert

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Mount, William Arthur

Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Muntz, Philip A.

Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

Helder, Augustus

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm.

Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

Myers, William Henry

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Horner, Frederick William

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Hoult, Joseph

Parker, Gilbert

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Howard, John (Kent, F'versh'm

Penn, John

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Howard, J. (Midd, Tottenham)

Percy, Earl

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

Pierpoint, Robert

Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Plummer, Walter R.

Younger, William

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Pretyman, Ernest George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

William Walrond and Mr.

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Purvis, Robert

Anstruther.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)

Bell, Richard

Burke, E. Haviland-

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Blake, Edward

Burt, Thomas

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Boland, John

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Boyle, James

Caldwell, James

Ambrose, Robert

Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

Cameron, Robert

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brigg, John

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Austin, Sir John

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Carew, James Laurence

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Causton, Richard Knight

Cawley, Frederick

Jordan, Jeremiah

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Channing, Francis Allston

Joyce, Michael

Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Kitson, Sir James

Perks, Robert William

Craig, Robert Hunter

Labouchere, Henry

Power, Patrick Joseph

Crean, Eugene

Lambert, George

Priestley, Arthur

Crombie, John William

Langley, Batty

Rea, Russell

Cullinan, J.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Reddy, M.

Daly, James

Leamy, Edmund

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Leng, Sir John

Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

Delany, William

Levy, Maurice

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lloyd-George, David

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Dillon, John

Lough, Thomas

Roche, John

Donelan, Captain A.

Lundon, W.

Schwann, Charles E.

Doogan, P. C.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Duffy, William J.

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Duncan, J. Hastings

M'Cann, James

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Dunn, Sir William

M'Fadden, Edward

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Elibank, Master of

M'Govern, T.

Stevenson, Francis S.

Ellis, John Edward

M'Kenna, Reginald

Strachey, Edward

Emmott, Alfred

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Sullivan, Donal

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Mather, William

Tennant, Harold John

Farrell, James Patrick

Mooney, John J.

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings)

Ffrench, Peter

Morton, Edward J. C. (Devonp't

Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

Flynn, James Christopher

Murnaghan, George

Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Murphy, John

Tomkinson, James

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Fuller, J. M. F.

Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

Tully, Jasper

Gilhooly, James

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Wallace, Robert

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Norman, Henry

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Grant, Corrie

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

Weir, James Galloway

Haldane, Richard Burdon

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

White, George (Norfolk)

Hammond, John

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Harwood, George

O'Doherty, William

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Dowd, John

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol. E.)

O'Mara, James

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Holland, William Henry

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Woodhouse Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Partington, Oswald

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur

Joicey, Sir James

Paulton, James Mellor

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir John Gorst, Mr. A. J. Balfour, and Mr. Walter Long.

EDUCATION (No. 2) BILL

"For enabling local authorities to empower school boards temporarily to carry on certain schools, and for sanctioning certain school board expenses," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 246.]

Animals Slaughtered (Compensation)

"To amend the Law relating to the Compensation paid for Slaughtered Diseased Animals," presented, and read

the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 16th July, and to be printed. [Bill 244.]

Animals Slaughtered (Compensation) Bill

Bill to amend the law relating to the Compensation paid for Slaughtered Diseased Animals, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Louis Sinclair, Mr. Brynmor Jones, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. David Morgan, Colonel Nolan, and Colonel Tufnell.

Drinking Places (Animals

"To prevent the contamination of public Drinking Places for Animals," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 16th July, and to be printed. [Bill 245.]

Drinking Places (Animals) Bill

Bill to prevent the contamination of public Drinking Places for Animals, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Louis Sinclair, Mr. Brynmor Jones, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. David Morgan, Colonel Nolan, and Colonel Tufnell.

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Continuation Clauses in Policies

* : I desire to move a resolution. The point on which I wish to do so is a very technical one, but one of very considerable importance to the shipowning and underwriting interests. If hon. Members will look at the Paper containing Amendments to the Finance Bill they will see a clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Toxteth, which deals with the matter on which I propose to move this resolution. Under the Stamp Act of 1891 a policy of sea insurance made for time is not valid if it is made for a period exceeding twelve months, and a policy cannot be altered so as to make it extend beyond the period of twelve months. It has been the usual practice to make policies of sea insurance containing what is called a continuation clause which provides that if a vessel is at sea at the expiration of the policy it should be agreed to hold the vessel covered until its arrival in port. But two very recent decisions have been given, the effect of which is that under the provisions of the law, which I have stated to the Committee, the continuation clause invalidated the whole policy. I have gone into this matter with the authorities of the Inland Revenue, and I have been advised that a fair alteration, in order to meet what is absolutely necessary for the safety of the interests to which I have referred, would be that a policy containing a continuation clause should be allowed if stamped with an extra sixpence, and that if the risk attaches and a new policy is not taken out covering the risk the continuation clause shall be stamped as a separate policy. Therefore, I move the resolution standing in my name.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That an additional stamp duty of sixpence shall be charged, on and after the 15th day of July, on every policy of sea insurance made for time containing a continuation clause, and that if the risk covered by the continuation clause attaches and a new policy is not issued covering the risk, the continuation clause shall be liable to stamp duty as a separate policy."—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. )

said that this was only another illustration of the extreme inconvenience of the practice of introducing resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means. What conceivable reason could there be for all this mystery in reference to this particular proposal? He thought it was extremely unfair, unless great necessity was made out, to spring such a resolution on the House without any notice. In the present case all the notice on the paper was that "the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to move a resolution"; and there was no possibility of any Member of the House forecasting the nature of that resolution. He was fully aware that discretion should be left to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to hold back the Budget resolutions, but in all other cases of resolutions imposing taxes there was no reason why the same notice could not be given of them as of any other business.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

Finance Bill

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 11:—

Question again proposed, "That Clause 11 stand part of the Bill."

said that he objected to this clause, and submitted that the suspension of the Sinking Fund was one of the worst features of the Bill. Some of the best financial authorities in the City declared that that was the case, and that the great fall in Consols from 114 to 94 was due to it. The suspension of the operation of the Sinking Fund had more a moral than a material effect on the price of Consols. The suspension of the Sinking Fund meant that this country was in financial straits and was being put to a very severe strain. The public and foreign countries regarded the suspension of the Sinking Fund as the last resort of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide funds for the war. The finances of the country were in much the same position as a company which, in order to pay a dividend in a bad year, took the depreciation on buildings and machinery fund. The suspension of the Sinking Fund was bad finance, and it destroyed the credit of the country. It also raised the interest on money this country would have to borrow in the future, and lowered the price of Consols, the effect of which was that a heavy permanent burden was placed upon the nation.

* agreed that the matter dealt with in the clause under discussion was one of great interest and ought not to be passed sub silentio. It dealt with some £4,000,000. The hon. Member for South Kilkenny appeared to argue that it would be a good thing if the Sinking Fund were maintained, but he did not think that that argument could be sustained when they had to borrow so much money as at present. [An HON. MEMBER: Why not?] Because they would simply have to borrow more money in order to sustain the Sinking Fund, and it would do more harm in that way. There was once a period in the history of this country when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to face similar great financial difficulties—he alluded to the time of the great war with France. At that time the very course advocated by the hon. Member who had just sat down was followed by this House, and the Sinking Fund was maintained, although a large amount of additional borrowing had to be done for that purpose. This was done for nearly thirty-seven years, from 1786 to 1823, and as the system had lasted so long it was natnrally carefully examined. After full inquiry the best authorities came to the conclusion that no good had been effected by the maintenance of the Sinking Fund during the years of borrowing. The only result had been that considerable expense had been incurred, and so far as the amount of the National Debt was concerned the indebtedness was just the same at the end of the time as if there had been no Sinking Fund. He would therefore like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any expenses would now be saved during the period that the Sinking Fund was suspended. In adopting this policy he believed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was following the correct course. Three or four years ago, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer first proposed to suspend the Sinking Fund, the Opposition strongly opposed him, but the reason for this course was that then there was a small surplus. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to a period in which, in order to provide supplies for the year, he was compelled to borrow, then he abolished the Sinking Fund, and he acted wisely in so doing. The question was, Had they saved anything by doing away with the Sinking Fund? The low price of Consols had been referred to, and this was undoubtedly a very serious question. This was undoubtedly owing to the large amount which the Government were borrowing. Continually large loans had been issued, and they brought down the price of Government securities. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House some time ago that this War Loan would be £41,000,000, but when it was issued they found that the total amount was £60,000,000, so that the right hon. Gentleman borrowed largely in excess of what seemed absolutely necessary for the year, and the result was a fall in the price of Consols. He thought they might fairly ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to borrow more than was absolutely necessary, so that no greater strain would be placed than was necessary upon the national securities. The Committee ought to realise that in suspending the Sinking Fund they were doing away with one of the most important services of this nation. Of necessity the Sinking Fund was suspended in this clause, and the right hon. Gentleman could not do better while borrowing. He did think however, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to promise them that he would use every effort with his colleagues to press upon them the necessity of economy in every department, and of ceasing to borrow, so that the Sinking Fund might be restored to its proper figure as soon as possible.

* said the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had not been consistent, for he began by praising the suspension of the Sinking Fund and ended by criticising the suspension on the ground that it did harm to national credit. It was with the latter statement that he was inclined to agree.

* said the hon. Member had misunderstood him. What he said was, that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to borrow in order to provide supplies for the year he did right to suspend the Sinking Fund.

* said it was undesirable to suspend the Sinking Fund unless there was an extreme and urgent necessity. It was true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with a war on hand, might be justified in saying that urgency was proved to suspend the fund, but he would like to say that the normal level of English finance must be maintained at a point at which not less than 4,600,000 should be provided annually. No Chancellor of the Exchequer could justly claim a surplus unless the revenue was sufficient to meet the expenditure of the country, including this Sinking Fund. There was no doubt whatever that our national credit, as measured by the money market, was at a level which was below that which it had recently been, and far below that which they would like to see it. He maintained that among the causes which had produced this fall was the policy which had been adopted with regard to the Sinking Fund. The effort which had been made to maintain this Sinking Fund was a prominent feature of their national system of finance. Although at the present juncture there might be circumstances justifying the course proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he thought the House ought to show that it was determined to keep up the old level the moment the war ceased.

said he cordially agreed with what had fallen from the Member for Exeter in regard to the Sinking Fund. Under present circumstances it was quite obvious that it would be very costly to borrow money at a higher rate of interest, instead of suspending the Sinking Fund. In the circumstances under which they found themselves he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a very great mistake in reducing the Sinking Fund three years ago. But for that process, they would have had a larger sum available for the war than at present. If they had increased taxes in times of prosperity, and also reduced the expenditure, they would have entered upon the war in a much stronger position than they occupied under the present circumstances. The suspension of the Sinking Fund had had a good deal to do with the fall in the price of Consols which lad taken place. The Sinking Fund gave the Chancellor of the Exchequer a large sum of money to play with, and this led to extravagance on the part of the Government, because the different departments, seeing that there was £2,000,000 available, increased their demands, and the money was swallowed up in the increased expenditure of the country. He very much regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced the Sinking Fund three years ago, for it showed an extraordinary lack of foresight. They had had a good many debates, not only this year, but last year, in reference to the amount of money which had actually gone to provide for the cost of this war. The Chancellor f the Exchequer had claimed credit or the fact that in consequence of £18,000,000 being taken from the old and new Sinking Funds he was enabled to reduce the burden falling upon the country in respect to the war. He dissented entirely from that view: that was money distinctly allocated for the diminution of the debt, and therefore the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not claim credit for the money going in diminution of this new debt, rather than the old debt. The only test of the right hon. Gentleman's courage in regard to this matter was the new and additional taxation which he had imposed upon the country in order to meet the expenditure of the war. And even if they looked at that, and excluded the two Sinking Funds altogether, the courageous nature of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was not quite satisfactory, because of the whole cost of the war—£170,000,000—the additional taxation only amounted to £27,000,000, and if £4,000,000 odd were deducted for the interest, there was only £22,000,000 out of £170,000,000 which was raised by fresh taxation. He felt very strongly that as soon as the pressure of the war was over, and we counted up our expenditure and revenue, it would be essential for the right hon. Gentleman to explain that he had made a mistake three years before, and the right hon. Gentleman, if we were to maintain our credit and reduce the debt, would have to increase the Sinking Fund to a much larger extent than had been the case in the last few years.

* : I hope the Committee will not discuss this matter in the manner adopted by the hon. Member. He does not object to the clause; he agrees that it is necessary and proper, and yet he has taken this opportunity for embarking on an attack on my policy three years ago in reducing the Sinking Fund by £2,000,000, a totally different thing to what we propose now. Of course, I do not say for a moment that the fact that the Sinking Fund is suspended does not pro tanto stop the reduction of the National Debt, and I have always affirmed that Parliament ought to pursue the reduction of the National Debt in time of peace. All I have said is this, that taking the cost of the war on the one side, and the means by which the cost is to be provided for on the other, we have provided so borrowing. I admit that in that process much by taxation and so much by we have also suspended the reduction of the National Debt, which in time of peace we should not have done. But the permanent reduction of the fixed Debt charge appears to me to be quite outside the proposal now before the Committee. The hon. Member below the gangway objected to this clause because in his opinion the suspension of the Sinking Fund had reduced the price of Consols from what they were three years ago, and I gathered that in the opinion of the hon. Member this affected the price of land stock in Ireland. I do not agree with the view of the hon. Member that the suspension of the Sinking Fund has had the effect which he believes. If he will look at the money market he will see that the price of all valuable securities has gone down practically as much—[An HON. MEMBER: More.]— and in some cases more than the price of Government funds. I believe the main reason for the reduction in the price of Consols is that the public have begun to appreciate the fact, which they were rather slow to appreciate, that two years hence the interest on Consols will be reduced to 2½ per cent. The price of Consols a few years ago was out of all proportion to their real value. To my own knowledge, there have been many cases in which trustees holding money in Consols became awake to the fact that they were holding that security at far beyond its real value, and therefore they placed them on the market, and invested elsewhere what they realised. That, I think, is the main reason for the reduction of the price of Consols. I can only say in conclusion that I am quite as alive as is the hon. Member who has just sat down to the necessity of maintaining the policy of reducing the Debt in times of peace. The hon. Member suggests that because I reduced the amount of the Sinking Fund three years ago I was guilty of a want of foresight. I admit that I did not foresee what has happened since, nor, I think, did he nor anyone else.

said he had stated that the price of Consols had fallen very considerably before the war and that he attributed that to a large extent to the reduction of the Sinking Fund and the increase of peace expenditure. Those were the two things which he thought the right hon. Gentleman ought to have foreseen.

* : I hope that when the hon. Gentleman comes to occupy the position I now hold he will exhibit all the foresight which he now associates with the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have proposed certain taxes, every one of which has been debated, opposed, and divided against in this House. I now propose to raise money by suspending the Sinking Fund, which, at any rate, has this merit, that it saves us from borrowing in order to pay off debt, and that is opposed also. If I propose to borrow, that is opposed. Every means of raising the money necessary for the requirements of the country have been opposed, and most of them have been opposed by the hon. Member himself. I do not at all wish to escape criticism, that is the fate of every Chancellor of the Exchequer; but the hon. Member will find it is impossible to please everyone. I can only do my best by the indulgence of the House.

Having had the misfortune myself to occupy the position of the Chancellor of Exchequer, I think at least I may claim that this Opposition has not opposed the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman. I think the largest number of divisions which I have taken part in this session have been in support of the right hon. Gentleman. I have heaped coals of fire on his head, because I remember in 1894, when I had a Debt to meet, the right hon. Gentleman and his friends opposed every tax that was called for to meet the necessities of the country, and especially the right hon. Gentleman voted against every single tax, including that which was to meet the wants of the Navy. Therefore, I think I may claim that we are in a more tolerant position with regard to the proposals of the Government.

* : Would the right hon. Gentleman forgive me. I have often been very grateful to him for his support, but I never dreamt that what I said would be taken as alluding to the Opposition as a whole; because such a thing does not exist.

Then I suppose that the right hon. Gentleman wishes that the non-existing Opposition had opposed his schemes for every tax, and I cannot help thinking that these remarks might discourage people lending him support. But this question of the Sinking Fund is far more important than that, and I am very glad to hear at last one voice on the other side of the House in favour of the Sinking Fund. The real truth is that the Sinking Fund is the basis of the credit of this country. This country has been threatened in its trade by the competition of other nations, but it still maintains, or has up to now maintained, the highest credit of any nation in the world; that gives it the command of the money market of the world; and that is due in no small degree to its steady determination to diminish its public Debt. That is the real foundation of our credit, and my hon. friend who sits by my side was, I think, quite entitled to point out that the Sinking Funds, which are the basis of this credit, have been seriously shaken in consequence of the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor, Lord Goschen, who in times of profound peace, with large surpluses at their disposal, set themselves to work to cut down the Sinking Fund. That attempt to impair the credit of this country has done a mischief which I believe it is almost impossible to repair. The right hon. Gentleman said that in time of war it was necessary to suspend the Sinking Fund. I do not object to that, but he says that when peace returns he will restore the Sinking Fund. But what prospect has he when peace returns of so doing, or what prospect has he of creating a surplus out of which this Sinking Fund can be restored? The old Sinking Fund was the result of an accidental surplus owing to a miscalculation in the Budget, but the new Sinking Fund was a provision for the liquidation of the Debt by the imposition of more taxation than was required for the annual expenditure of the country. It was for the express purpose of keeping down the National Debt. The honour of instituting that provision belonged to a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Stafford Northcote; it has been of immense service to the country, and it has only been in the last ten years that two Tory Chancellors of the Exchequer have attempted to destroy its effect. I am bound to say that when the Government of 1894 was in distressed circumstances, when we had to raise supplies under enormous difficulties. with a very small majority, we absolutely refused to diminish the Sinking Fund, and raised more money in order that it should be maintained. The consequence has been that until recently the country has deliberately raised taxation to the amount of £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 a year, which has been appropriated to the diminution of the National Debt, and it has been that which has placed the country in the highest credit among the nations of the world. Now you have borrowed for this war nearly £150,000,000—the exact figure I do not know—and nobody knows how much more you will have to borrow. You are spending a million and a quarter a week, and you cannot say how many weeks that expenditure is going on. I do not quite know whether the loan which the right hon. Gentleman has raised is raised on the hypothesis that the war is to continue every week until the 1st of April next. I do not know, but it will have to come out, whether it is on the hypothesis of the war continuing until the end of the financial year, or to what date it is that the estimate for this loan has been made.

* : It was based on the amount taken in the Army Estimates for the continuance of the war during the financial year.

Therefore it is based on the hypothesis that the war will continue up to the end of the financial year, the 1st of April next.

* : It was estimated in the Army Estimates that the war would cost a certain sum up to a certain date, and that then the expenditure would diminish.

I do not quite understand. "Up to a certain date, and then it would begin todiminish." When will it begin to diminish?

* : I do not know the exact date. But I believe I have borrowed enough to carry on the war up to the 1st of April next, so far as I can see at present.

There was one remark of the right hon. Gentleman which rather surprised me. He said he thought that the issue of this large sum in Consols had nothing to do with the diminution in the price of Consols. That was a very extraordinary circumstance.

* : No; the right hon. Gentleman has misapprehended me. I was not alluding to Consols, but to the suspension of the Sinking Fund, and to its effect on Irish Land Stock, which had been alluded to by the hon. Gentleman below the gangway.

As regards Irish Land Stock, that is a different question. The hon. Member for Poplar said that the issue of th large amount of Consols must diminish the price of Consols. How can you put any such amount of Consols on the market as the right hon. Gentleman has done without unusually lowering the market?

I do not know what the doctrine of the right hon. Gentleman is with reference to the money market, whether it is that you can throw £120,000,000 of Consols on to it without affecting the price of Consols. Anybody knows that a much smaller quantity than that will usually affect the price. Then we are in this position: I should like to know, and I hope we may have the Chancellor of the Exchequer's pledge, that when peace returns he intends to restore the peace Sinking Fund to its former condition—that is a pledge we have a right to demand. I should like to know, supposing you raise £100,000,000 Consols, how many years it will take at £5,000,000 a year to reduce that Debt. In twenty years I think you may have replaced the country, in respect of Debt, in the same position as it was before the war. You will find yourself in no better position than before the war took place. These are all considerations which, after all, the country ought to take into account. It ought to consider the extremely grave position in which it stands, not only in respect of its taxation. After all, you cannot impose this amount of taxation without in the long run affecting the condition of your people. You cannot increase the Debt without laying it upon those who come after you, and who will have demands made upon them at least as great, and probably greater, than are made upon you. You are laying upon them this burden, and doing it with a light heart. There is a phrase of the French Minister who began the war with Germany. He said he did it with a light heart. I am not charging the Chancellor of the Exchequer with that, because I know that he has not a light heart in the demands he has to make on the country. But there are too many people in this country who say that it does not signify what we expend or what we borrow, and that we have plenty of money. It is the old Jingo policy, "We've got the men, and we've got the money too." But we are told now that we have not got the men, and that we have a difficulty in getting them. There may come a time when you have not got the money too. We ought, I think, to take every opportunity afforded us, either in this House or out of it, of impressing upon the country the gravity of the position in which it is placed by the financial demands made upon it, and of showing that it is not simply, as has been well said, a question of millions of pounds—which we talk of now as if they were farthings—but that it is a question which affects the condition of the people and the future of the country.

said he acknowledged with gratitude that in 1894, when there was such strenuous fighting on the Finance Bill, in which he himself took a humble part, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire did not once revert to the closure, and although in that year the Government were greatly pressed for money, he did not entertain the notion of interfering with the Sinking Fund. He would always remember that to the credit of the right hon. Gentleman. He only wished that the present Govern- ment with their large majority, had followed the example set in that respect. He was not disposed to quarrel with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for suspending the Sinking Fund in the present year, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a borrower; but it was impossible to forget that in the years of increasing trade and bursting prosperity the right hon. Gentleman never lost an opportunity to drop both Sinking Funds. In a very short period the price of Consols had fallen 20 per cent.—an unexampled fall—and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer had added more to the Debt of the country than any previous Chancellor had done in the same time. The delusion of the right hon. Gentleman that it was ruin to buy Consols at a high price and salvation to buy them at a low price must always be regretted. He called the attention of the Committee once more to his oft-repeated grievance—the allusive and referential form of legislation. In order to discover what was meant by this clause they had to go back to the Finance Act of 1900, from that to the Local Loans Act of 1887, and from that to another Act of 1876. All these references had to be made before they found what was embodied in the Clause which they were now considering. Reference had to be made to the National Debt Acts of 1883 and 1888 and the Finance Act of 1899, so that the Committee would perceive that, in order to get the merest glimmer of a notion of what the clause meant, they had to go back through a concatenation of eight or ten Acts. He must once again protest against this method of dealing with the House of Commons. He did so because the secret was out. The gentleman who was responsible for the drafting of these Bills, Sir Courtenay Ilbert, had published a book showing how it was done. This allusive and referential system of legislation, which was illustrated by this clause in a particularly offensive manner, was adopted in order that the House of Commons might not know what it was doing, the fear being that if it did know what it was doing it would never do it. If in the course of time it was thought necessary to abolish the House of Commons, there might be something to be said for that, but the House of Commons existed, and so long as it did it was assumed to have certain powers to revise the clauses of Bills presented to it, and these clauses should be in such language as would be intelligible to the House.

said every Member who had addressed the Committee had urged upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the desirability of a change in this matter of suspending the Sinking Fund. He hoped that before the debate closed they would have some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that, if he possibly could, in another year he would revert to the old practice, and continue the Sinking Fund.

said he was much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the admission. The fall in the price of the Consols had had a most disastrous effect on all classes of securities in the country. It had had an injurious effect on those who were in the hands of trustees and who were obliged to invest in first-class securities. The Chancellor of the Exchequer recognised this as fully as anybody else. The fall in the price of Consols had led to a corresponding fall in the price of Irish Land Stock.

said that in regard to the Sinking Fund he agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it would be quixotic to go on with it when they were borrowing. He thought they should in these very prosperous years maintain the rate of reduction which Sir Stafford Northcote established. If that had been done the country would have been in a better position than at present, as they were perfectly able to pay. It only wanted a little moral fibre on the part of the Government to do it. He thought it was a great mistake, when Lord Goschen reduced the interest on Consols, to take that opportunity for reducing the sum devoted to the Sinking Fund. If it had been continued at the amount established by Sir Stafford Northcote, we should have set aside a sum which would nearly have liquidated the cost of the war. He hoped that, in spite of the great increase in expenditure, we would increase our efforts to reduce the Debt when things became normal. It was quite true, no doubt, that the issue of the new Consols had tended to reduce the price of Consols, but in his opinion the real cause of the reduction was that the purchases for the Sinking Fund and the Post Office Savings Bank had practically stopped for the last two years. He thought the heavy fall in the price of Consols was to be regretted, because it had a tendency to injure a great number of good securities, and it had had the effect of reducing the value of estates on which death duties were paid. He hoped that when we got over our present difficulties we should have a Government strong enough to remember that we ought not only to pay our way, but to do something in the way of getting rid of our large Debt. He was sure that policy would have the effect of tending morn than anything else to economy in our expenditure.

said the suspending of the Sinking Fund was a Tory trick of finance by which the Government wished to avoid the full responsibility for the war. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given an undertaking that next year he would put the Sinking Fund in operation.

* : I made no promise of that kind. What I said was that the Sinking Fund would be resumed when the war is over.

said if they had to wait till peace was restored they would have to wait a very long time indeed. By suspending the Sinking Fund the Government had brought down Consols from what should be their true value, and had depreciated all the best securities on the market, and that meant great loss to the country. They were therefore justified in opposing this clause in every possible way. The £4,600,000 got by suspending the Sinking Fund might have been easily raised by adding 2d. to the income tax. Why should not the Government endeavour to pay their way honestly, and put some blister on the Stock Exchange gentlemen who had tried to break up the Queen's Hall meeting, and who shouted for the war, but wanted to get rid of the responsibility of paying for it? In America they had the honesty to get rid of their war debt. [AN HON. MEMBER ON THE MINISTERIAL BENCHES: After the war.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told the Committee that he would suspend the operation of the Sinking Fund only until peace was restored, but why, for this comparatively small sum of £4,600,000, should he disorganise the whole money market? The National Debt had been piled up to something like £800,000,000, and with £200,000,000 of debt incurred by local bodies the debt on the shoulders of the country was £1,000,000,000; and the effect of all this in Ireland was that the Land Stock had ceased to be of the value it was before the Sinking Fund was interfered with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

said he certainly had understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given an undertaking that the suspension of the New Sinking Fund would cease next year; but now the right hon. Gentleman had gone back on his promise, and therefore on the Irish benches they were justified in resisting very strongly the passage of this clause. He agreed with the hon. Member for South Kilkenny that the suspension of the Sinking Fund would seriously interfere with land purchase in Ireland. When the landlords got 114 for their Consols it was a considerable inducement to them to accept offers for the purchase of their farms by the tenants. That was a very serious matter to the Irish representatives, especially when their hopes had been dashed to the ground in regard to the land legislation promised by the Government. He recognised perfectly the difficulty in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed this year; but the right hon. Gentleman next year might not be Chancellor of the Exchequer, or other circumstances might arise to prevent him carrying out any promise he might give. But the right hon. Gentleman was recognised as a strong Minister, and he might use his strength in the Cabinet to ensure that any promise he made to the Committee should be carried out.

* said that the hon. Member who had just sat down had made a characteristic speech which showed—like so many speeches from these benches—that there was hardly any important act which this Imperial Parliament could do which, did not bring some specific grievance to their country. That being so, he thought it was a very good thing that hon. Members from Ireland could represent, their grievances on frequent occasions in this House. Several hon. Members had alluded to the change in the financial position of the country which had taken place during the last two years. His hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn had drawn a particularly gloomy picture of it, and his right hon. friend the Member for Monmouth had put the matter forward in an interesting manner. He should like to say that if this change was due entirely to the South African War, and if the war was right, the money ought to be paid. The right hon. Gentleman was perfectly entitled, as having consistently opposed the war, to complain of the change in the financial, position; but hon. Gentlemen like the Member for King's Lynn, who had supported the war, were scarcely consistent, in complaining when the effect of the war was to seriously change the financial position of the country.

said that the hon. Member had not observed that in the last five years thirty millions had been added to the expenditure of the country independent of the war.

* said it was very good of his right hon. friend, to pay him the compliment to notice his remarks; but he might say that while this debate drew their attention to the fact of the continual increase in expenditure, the matter would not be made any better by a peace. The immediate question before the Committee was that, of the Sinking Fund, but he agreed with the hon. Member for Exeter in thinking, that it would not be worth while to have interrupted the continuity of the operation of the Sinking Fund which strengthened the national credit. There were two views on the subject. First of all, it was said that on financial grounds the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been correct in suspending the operation of the Sinking Fund while the war lasted; and, second, that he should assure the Committee, as he understood the right hon. Gentleman had assured the Committee, so far as assurance could come from him, that on the restoration of peace the operation of the Sinking Fund would be restored to the position of that which was the most powerful weapon of Imperial defence.

said that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had laid the lash on the shoulders of the Chancellor of the Exchequer not long ago in regard to expenditure, but now he seemed to have been brought within the Government fold. The Irish Members had from the start opposed the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this question, and they meant to continue it to the finish and not to play the part of the weathercock, the same as the hon. Member for Oldham had done. The question before the House was, in the opinion of the Irish Members, the most serious discussed upon the Budget, because they wanted to see the landlords bought out, and the action of the right hon. Gentleman brought down Consols and all gilt-edged securities, and that deplorable state of affairs would have the effect of making the landlords cling to their estates like grim death, instead of selling them to their tenants, as they would have done had Consols remained at 114. It was deceiving the country to stop the operation of the Sinking Fund, and he hoped his hon. friend would go to a division.

said he had not been convinced by the reply of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the suspension of the Sinking Fund had very little to do with the price of Consols. The price of Consols depended on the good or bad repute of the funded debt, and that depended on the amount of the Sinking Fund. The moral effect of the suspension of the Sinking Fund was greater than the cessation of buying £4,600,000 of Consols annually in the market, and he illustrated that in the case of Brazil and Argentina. In the case of a private individual, if he had bills to meet and did not meet them regularly, his credit was not good, even if he lived in Park Lane in a house furnished on the loan system.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 366; Noes, 89. (Division List No. 306.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Cawley, Frederick

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Bignold, Arthur

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Allsopp, Hon. George

Bigwood, James

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Boulnois, Emund

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Arrol, Sir William

Bousfield, William Robert

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H.A.E.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

Coddington, Sir William

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brassey, Albert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Brigg, John

Collings. Rt. Hn. Jesse

Austin, Sir John

Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Brymer, William Ernest

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Baird, John George Alexander

Bull, William James

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Balcarres, Lord

Bullard, Sir Harry

Craig, Robert Hunter

Baldwin, Alfred

Burt, Thomas

Cranborne, Viscount

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Butcher, John George

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Crombie, John William

Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W.(Leeds

Cameron, Robert

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Balfour, Maj KR. (Christchurch

Campbell, Rt Hon J.A. (Glasgow

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Banbury, Frederick George

Carlile, William Walter

Crossley, Sir Savile

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Bartley, George C. T.

Causton, Richard Knight

Cust, Henry John C.

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Cavendish, R.F. (N. Lancs.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Dalziel, James Henry

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriesshire

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Helder, Augustus

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Helme, Norval Watson

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Denny, Colonel

Henderson, Alexander

Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Mitchell, William

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hill, Arthur

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D.

Hogg, Lindsay

Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Holland, William Henry

Morgan, Hn. Fred.(Monm'thsh.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Morrell, George Herbert

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Hoult, Joseph

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Duncan, J. Hastings

Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

Morrison, James Archibald

Dunn, Sir William

Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

Morton, Arthur H A. (Deptford)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Morton, Edw. J.C. (Devonport)

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

Mount, William Arthur

Edwards, Frank

Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

Muntz, Philip A.

Elibank, Master of

Jacoby, James Alfred

Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Jessell, Captain Herbert Merton

Myers, William Henry

Fenwick, Charles

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Joicey, Sir James

Norman, Henry

Finch, George H.

Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Fisher, William Hayes

Kemp, George

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Fison, Frederick William

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham,

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Keswick, William

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Fletcher, Sir Henry

Kimber, Henry

Parker, Gilbert

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.)

Kitson, Sir James

Partington, Oswald

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

Knowles, Lees

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Lambert, George

Pease, Sir Joseph W.(Durham).

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Percy, Earl

Fuller, J. M. F.

Langley, Batty

Perks, Robert William

Galloway, William Johnson

Law, Andrew Bonar

Pierpoint, Robert

Garfit, William

Lawson, John Grant

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H.(City of Lond.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Plummer, Walter R.

Gladstone. Rt Hn. Herbert John

Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Pretyman, Ernest George

Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Priestley, Arthur

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Leng, Sir John

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Gore, Hn. G. R. COrmsby-(Salop

Leveson Gower, Frederick N.S

Purvis, Robert

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rankin, Sir James

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Lloyd-George, David

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Ratcliff, R. F.

Graham, Henry Robert

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham)

Rea, Russell

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS. Edm'nds

Lough, Thomas

Reid, James (Greenock)

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Lowe, Francis William

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Gretton, John

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Gunter, Sir Robert

Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Richards, Henry Charles

Guthrie, Walter Murray

Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.

Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge)

Hain, Edward

Macdona, John Cumming

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

Haldane, Richard Burdon

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Rigg, Richard

Hall, Edward Marshall

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

M'Calmont, Col. H.L.B. (Cambs.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Robson, William Snowdon

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfo'd

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Majendie, James A. E.

Round, James

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Malcolm, Ian

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Haslett, Sir Charles Homer

Manners, Lord Cecil

Russell, T. W.

Rutherford, John

Stock, James Henry

Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Strachey, Edward

Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Tennant, Harold John

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Seton-Karr, Henry

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, G'wer

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

Thornton, Percy M.

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

Tomkinson, James

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Smith, HC (Northumb. Tynesd.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Valentia, Viscount

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd

Spear, John Ward

Wallace, Robert

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Wylie, Alexander

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Younger, William

Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Stevenson, Francis S.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Webb, Colonel William George

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Harwood, George

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Malley, William

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Mara, James

Ambrose, Robert

Joyce, Michael

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Leamy, Edmund

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Levy, Maurice

Reddy, M.

Bell, Richard

Lundon, W.

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Blake, Edward

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Boland, John

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Boyle, James

M'Cann, James

Roche, John

Burke, E. Haviland-

M'Dermott, Patrick

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Caldwell, James

M'Fadden, Edward

Schwann, Charles E.

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

M'Govern, T.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Carew, James (Laurence)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Shipman, D. John G.

Channing, Francis Allston

Mooney, John J.

Sullivan, Donal

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Murnaghan, George

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Crean, Eugene

Murphy, John

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Cullinan, J.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

Daly, James

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Thompson, F.W.(York, W. R.)

Delany, William

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Tully, Jasper

Dillon, John

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

White, George (Norfolk)

Doogan, P. C.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Duffy, William J.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Farrell, James Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Ffrench, Peter

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Gilhooly, James

O'Doherty, William

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Grant, Corrie

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Hammond, John

O'Dowd, John

Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Clause 12:—

said that perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer would kindly take that opportunity of stating explicitly who was to pay the duty. The clause followed the Customs Consolidation Act, and under that Act the duty would have to be paid by the exporter. But who was the exporter? Was it the person who put the coal free on board, or the person who cleared the ship for a foreign port? If the duty were to be paid by the former very considerable difficulty would ensue, as once the coal was placed on board he would have no authority over it, and would not know whether it was to be exported to a foreign port or shipped to another British port. There was very great anxiety in coal-shipping ports to know on whom precisely the duty would be imposed, and the suggestion that perhaps the person who put the coal on board would have to pay was alarming the coal trade. He quite understood that it would be more convenient to the Customs that that person should pay, but it would be extremely inconvenient to the trade.

* : I hope the hon. Member will not now press the point, as there is an Amendment on the Paper dealing with it.

Clause agreed to.

* said he desired to move the clause standing in his name. It was a very simple clause, and dealt with one or two small but yet important points. The first and second paragraphs were not new. The first paragraph only dealt in more effective language with matters already embodied in the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, and the second paragraph dealt with a question touched on in the Finance Act of last year, in regard to former contracts for goods on which duty was imposed. The Act of 1876, if an increase were made, allowed it to be charged, and if a decrease were made allowed it to be deducted; but there was no provision for the imposition of a new duty. The Act of 1876 also did not make it clear that if a duty were imposed on a particular ingredient in a manufactured article, such as sugar in jam, that that duty could be recovered. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had given considerable attention to these matters, and always showed every desire to meet any difficulty of which the traders might reasonably complain, accepted an Amendment from him dealing with new duties, and that Amendment had been of the greatest value to the right hon. Gentleman in imposing the sugar duty, for it prevented any difficulty about former contracts. But one point remained, and that was that wherever necessary expenses had been incurred in connection with a new duty, or saved in the case of a repealed duty, they might be added to or deducted from the contract price. That was the only new point. He had taken every care to secure wording approved by the Treasury, and there was no new principle introduced. The whole object of the clause was to make the law a little clearer than it was at present, and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see his way to accept it.

New Clause—

"(1) Where any new customs import duty or new excise duty is imposed, or where any customs import duty or excise duty is increased, and any goods in respect of which the duty is payable are delivered after the day on which the new or increased duty takes effect in pursuance of a contract made before that day, the seller of the goods may, in the absence of agreement to the contrary, recover, as an addition to the contract price, a sum equal to any amount paid by him in respect of the goods on account of the new duty or increase of duty, as the case may be.

"(2) Where any customs import duty or excise duty is repealed or decreased, and any goods affected by the duty are delivered after the day on which the duty ceases or the decrease in the duty takes effect in pursuance of a contract made before that day, the purchaser of the goods, in the absence of agreement to the contrary, may, if the seller of the goods has had in respect of those goods the benefit of the repeal or decrease of the duty, deduct from the contract price a sum equal to the amount of the duty or decrease of duty, as the case may be.

"(3) Where any addition to or deduction from the contract price may be made under this section on account of any new or repealed duty, such sum as may be agreed upon or in default of agreement determined by the Commissoners of Customs in the case of a customs duty, and by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in the case of an excise duty, as representing in the case of a new duty any new expenses incurred, and in the case of a repealed duty any expenses saved, may be included in the addition to or deduction from the contract price, and may be recovered or deducted accordingly.

"(4) This section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the nineteenth day of April nineteen hundred and one, and section twenty of The Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, and section eight of The Finance Act, 1900, are hereby repealed."—( Mr. Lough. )

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be now read a second time."

* said he had had the clause which had been moved by the hon. Member carefully examined, and he found it was really a re-enactment of the existing law with the addition of one new point. On the whole, he thought it would be an improvement, and therefore he was prepared to accept it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added.

New Clause—

"Sub-section one of Section twenty-six of The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1890 which relates to the reduction of inhabited house duty in the ease of lodging houses shall be read with the substitution of the first day of October for the first day of July as the day before which registration is to be effected, and of the first day of November for the first day of October as the day before, which application must be made for the reduction of the rate of charge."—( Mr. Helme ).

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be now read a second time."

* , in thanking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for endeavouring to meet him, asked him to be good enough to communicate with the surveyors of income tax in order to ascertain from them whether it was not the case that there were a large number of lodging-house keepers who had to pay larger sums in inhabited house duty on the assumption that they were private houses. His point was that lodging-house keepers were intended by Parliament to have the same lower scale of Inhabited house duty as hotels and publichouses. He thought power ought to be given to the local commissioners, upon evidence being produced before them that the claimants were bona fide lodging house keepers, to reduce the scale.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added.

* said the clause he now moved was intended to apply the relief which was granted by the Finance Act of 1898 in respect to the payment of land tax by persons whose total income was below the limit which subjected them to income tax. The relief from land tax originally granted to the clergy was subsequently extended to certain other classes of the community, and on the same principle he now proposed that exemption from inhabited house duty should be extended to the poorer class of lodging-house keepers. This would not appreciably reduce the amount payable to the Exchequer. He recognised the fact that to endeavour to persuade the Committee at this special time with regard to reducing any particular source of revenue was almost a hopeless task, but at the same time he thought that, as the inhabited house duty and the land tax were similar in character and had come down together from early days, the principle which was applied to one ought to be applied to the other. In the early days of the last century an exemption was made on behalf of the poorer clergy, and he thought the principle should be further extended. The right hon. Gentleman, when the Finance Bill of 1898 was before the House, accepted a similar suggestion, and himself brought in a clause, the language of which had been adopted for the clause now before the Committee, with only such modifications as were necessary to make it applicable to the inhabited house duty instead of the land tax. He urged this matter on behalf of the lodging-house keepers, who rendered very great service to the thousands who went into the country and seaside places in order to recuperate their health. He did not think that, if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to accept the clause, the national purse would suffer to any appreciable extent, seeing that the total amount of Inhabited House Duty received under head of Lodging Houses in 1898 was £24,782, and in 1900 only £27,031, and the whole of this sum would not be subject to the reduction proposed.

New clause—

"Where the owner of any lodging house is assessed for the payment of inhabited house duty, before the amount so assessed in any financial year is paid, produces to the collector of inhabited house duty a certificate from the surveyor of taxes that such owner has been allowed in that year a total exemption from income tax by reason of his income not exceeding one hundred and sixty pounds, the said amount of inhabited house duty shall not be collected, and if such owner produces to the said collector a certificate from the surveyor of taxes that such owner has been allowed in that year an abatement of income tax by reason of his income not exceeding four hundred pounds, one-half of the said inhabited house duty shall not be collected."—( Mr. Norval Helme. )

Brought up and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be now read a second time."

* , in opposing that Amendment, said the question of relief to the former payers of Land Tax was discussed at considerable length some years ago, and although the remission granted had given much relief, he did not think it had cost the Exchequer so much as the hon. Gentleman seemed to think. At that time they were dealing with a surplus, but the hon. Member himself felt the difficulty of remitting any source of taxation now. There was a still more important ground for not accepting this proposal, which was that, though the house duty was a tax which required consideration, it had been excluded from consideration for some time past on account of its relation to the subject of local taxation and the possibilities of utilising it in aid of local rates. He would not now say anything to indicate whether he thought or did not think it could be used for the purpose, but he was quite certain that he could not at present attempt to make such an alteration in the house duty as the hon. Member suggested. That particular alteration was not, he thought, a fair one, and he would endeavour to explain why. In 1890 the lodging-house keepers were favoured by a reduction of the charges upon lodging-houses to the same scale as applied to houses used for the purposes of trade. There were other persons, such as doctors and schoolmasters, who claimed similar relief and had not received it, yet now the hon. Member proposed that lodging-house keepers should be even further exempted. That would be a very invidious exemption, and if it were extended to all the other classes such a loss would be caused in the house duty that for houses below £40 it would almost cease to exist. He could not accept the Amendment, but he intended to look into the whole incidence of the house duty.

expressed the opinion that the hon. Member was ill- advised to bring forward the clause in the terms which he had. He, however, understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he intended to look into the whole matter, with regard to the effect of handing over these duties to the Local Taxation Fund. The proposal was a little crude, but the intention was good. Though he felt it would be difficult to support the proposal, he had no doubt that the hon. Member would feel that he had done well in moving this Amendment, and he would therefore advise him to be content with having called attention to the matter, and to withdraw his proposal.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

Schedule 2:—

Amendment proposed—

"In page 8, line 5, at end to add the words, and in allowing that drawback the Commissioners of Customs may, with the assent of the Treasury, in order to facilitate trade, relax in the case of any goods any requirements of sections one hundred and four and one hundred and six of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, as to the giving of security and the examination of goods.'"—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. )

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

said it was not his intention to move to omit the schedule altogether, as that was a consequential Amendment, but there was one point upon which he desired some information. He saw no explanation of what was meant by the phrase "degrees of polarisation." So far as he could gather it did not mean degrees of polarisation at all, but degrees of sugar measured by the instrument. "Degrees of polarization" was a technical term, which was perfectly well understood, and he suggested, under the circumstances, it would be better to use the phrase "degrees of sugar."

* : I will consider the words of the hon. Member, but I think the phrase is explained in Section 2, which clearly shows what it means. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will let me have the words which he proposes should be used.

pointed out that hon. Members did not carry the sections in their heads, and submitted that an Amendment of this character ought not to be thrown at the head of the Committee for the first time without some explanation.

* said that it was merely desired in certain cases to relax the present strict requirements in the interests of trade.

Question put, and agreed to.

Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 3 agreed to.

Schedule 4:—

said the course adopted with regard to the Amendment he was about to move would decide several subsequent Amendments. It embodied the opinion strongly expressed by every member of the coal trade, and by everybody who had had any experience of the shipping of coal, and its effect, if carried, would be that the duty on export, instead of being paid by the colliery owner who put the coal into the vessel, would be paid by the merchant who exported it. It was not necessary to enlarge upon the reasons which had induced the coal trade to press for this Amendment, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had, through his officials, considerable correspondence and numerous conferences with the representatives of that trade on the subject. By this Amendment the right hon. Gentleman was not asked to remit a single shilling of the duty, or to impose any burden upon the Treasury. On the contrary, the Amendment would facilitate the collection of the duty, and bring the provisions of the Bill into accord with the usual practice in these cases. All coal for foreign shipment was sold either f.o.b. or for delivery in some foreign port—c.i.f. The coal trade recognised that in the case of coal sold for delivery in Genoa or Constantinople the coal owner was the proper person to clear the vessel and bear the initial burden of the tax. But in the majority of cases the coal owner simply sold to the merchant at the port of shipment, and in those cases the trade urged that the coal owner's duty, under his contract, was completed as soon as he had put the coal into the hold of the vessel. As he had neither the means of knowing where the coal was going, nor the staff or machinery to enable him in many cases to deal with the Custom House officials at the port of shipment, it was not only unfair to him, but also actually productive of inconvenience to the Customs authorities, that the duty should be placed upon the coal owner. The merchant was the exporter of the coal, he had an office at the port of shipment, and his clerks were well able to deal with a matter of this kind. It was therefore difficult to see why the duty of clearing the vessel should be taken out of the hands of the man who was competent to discharge it, and upon whom it naturally and logically fell, in order to place it upon the shoulders of people living perhaps thirty or forty miles from the port of shipment, and who might not have an office at the port. A vessel of, say, 3,000 tons might fill up-with coal from a good many different collieries. A coal owner might be asked to deliver 100 trucks of coal on a particular date at a particular port for a particular ship, at the same time knowing that other coal from other collieries would mix with his cargo in the vessel. These circumstances would lead to correspondence, delay, and endless confusion if the duty of clearing the ship was imposed on the coal owner. On the other hand, the merchant knew where the coal was going and its value, could produce the contracts, had all the papers in his hands, and was the proper person to clear the vessel. The difficulty became yet greater when coal under contracts which under the Bill as amended would be exempted from duty was shipped in the same vessel as the other coal. There had been, and was now, on all coal leaving the Tyne an export duty of l½d. per ton for the benefit of the Tyne Conservancy Commissioners, and that duty was collected by the Customs authorities—who paid it over to the port authorities—not from the coal-owner, but from the person who exported the coal. The greatest importance was attached to this Amendment in Cardiff, Newport, and, still more, perhaps, on the northeast coast. It was one of those concessions which, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer saw fit to make it, would greatly smooth the working of the impost, make the duty easy to collect, and not impose too severe a burden on the coal owner.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 8, line 20, to leave out the words 'shipped for exportation' and insert the word 'exported.'"—( Mr. McLaren. )

Question proposed, "That the words 'shipped for exportation' stand part of the Schedule."

* said he had looked carefully into this matter, which was a very technical one, and by no means easy for anybody who, like himself, was not a technical expert, to explain to the Committee. He was assured, however, that the adoption of the Amendment would have a much larger effect than the hon. Member anticipated. According to his advisers, the effect would be to transfer the liability for the duty from the exporter of coal, the person who had made the bargain, to the shipowner. The whole process now adopted would have to be altered, and instead of the Customs being able to refuse to allow shipment unless the duty was paid, they would have to allow the shipment, and the only hold over the vessel to secure the duty would be the power of preventing the vessel leaving the port. That practically amounted to transferring the liability for the duty from the person who made the bargain to sell the coal to the shipowner. He did not know whether that was the intention of the hon. Member in moving the Amendment, but, in his opinion, it would be a mistake to do anything of the kind. Then came the question, which had been raised by persons interested in the subject, between the f.o.b. colliery owner-contractor and the f.o.b. middleman contractor. That, however, was a matter in which the Customs had no call to interfere. It was for them to settle between themselves as to who was to be the person to make the entry for the export with the Customs, and therefore to become liable to pay the duty. He did not think it possible to go behind that view of the question. So far as regarded the contracts which came within the exemption from duty, there could be no difficulty whatever; [while as to the contracts made after the] date of the imposition of the duty, the parties could agree with one another and could make what arrangements they liked. With regard to the provision in line 10, page 9, that section would not do, because it went beyond anything they had power to enact. The law officers had advised him that it would not be possible to retain that section in the Bill, and if the hon. Member for Monmouth could suggest a method by which the difficulty could be met he would be quite prepared to consider it.

said the difficulty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was due not to the particular language of Section 20 of the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876, or to anything in the present Bill, but to the fact that when an export duty was imposed for the first time for many years it became necessary for the Government to legislate in regard to Customs matters which were not thought of in the year 1876. When the draftsman was asked to construct a Bill for art export duty on coal he was confronted with difficulties which had not arisen for many years. The Bill as drawn was drafted by reference to the Customs Act of 1876, which in essence was an Act dealing not at all with export, but with import duties. Those who objected to the export duty had a right, quite apart from that principle, to ask that the Government, in laying its proposals in Bill form before the House of Commons, should have prepared a series of sections showing what exactly were to be the duties of the Commissioners of Customs and so forth. He had looked carefully at the provisions of the Customs Act of 1876, and he was quite willing to concede that it was absolutely necessary to have a machinery for preventing fraud and illegal practices, but the fourth schedule, in regard both to its provisions as to the exportation of coal and to its modification of the Customs Acts on the same point, did not meet fairly and reasonably the demands which those whom he represented had a right to make if this tax was to be imposed and the provisions of the Bill carried into effect. The first subsection of the schedule was—

"Coal should not be shipped for exportation from Great Britain or Ireland or carried coast wise unless entry and clearance thereof have been made before shipment in such manner as the Commissioner of Customs direct."

The Committee were, therefore, going to delegate to the Commissioners of Customs the important duty of legislating with regard to the way in which the shipment of coal was to be made. As to the Amendment before the Committee, the substitution of the word "exported" for "shipped for exportation" made a very great difference from a legal point of view, having regard to the kind of contracts and the way in which the trade was carried on in the part of the country with which he was acquainted. It was an alteration which ought to be made in the general interests of those who had invested their capital, and were spending their labour from day to day in connection with this trade in Glamorganshire. If the word "exported" was inserted the person who would come under the operation of the very complicated clauses of the Customs Act of 1876 would be, not the colliery owner or his agent, but the man who actually shipped the coal, or, it might be, the shipowner. Why not? In his opinion that was a better and more reasonable way of obtaining this revenue than would be the case if the words remained as at present.

, in supporting the Amendment, said he scarcely thought that neither the right hon. Gentleman or his law advisers had quite appreciated the point. He had been informed that the exporter was pretty well known at the present time just as much as the importer. The exporter was invariably the person who fixed the destination of the ship and cleared it. This was a very important point. The House had always recognised that where a duty was sprung suddenly upon an exporter or an importer he was entitled to add that duty, and the receiver was entitled to deduct any decrease made by the Customs from the price of his contract. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken the advice which he gave him upon Clause 3 he would have followed the same precedents which had always been followed in this House, and he would have removed to a large extent the difficulty they now found themselves in. The reason why this power was given to the importer, or to those who made contracts, to add or take away any increase or decrease in the duty was in order to make the consumer pay. As far as foreigners were concerned, they had no such power, and everybody who had a contract with a foreign consumer would be prevented from carrying out his contract because he had contracted to put f. o. b. in any ship which the foreign consumer might send. This was a very important point in dealing with such cases as he alluded to. Difficulties might arise, the shipowner might have his ship detained, the purchaser might not give the necessary order to ship, and the whole business might end in a great amount of litigation. He felt sure that the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to create such difficulties as that. There was a very important instance given by his hon. friend who moved the Amendment as to the dues on the Tyne. Those dues were charged by the City of Newcastle upon all coal snipped on the Tyne, and they were handed over to the Tyne Conservancy Commissioners. They were collected by the Customs authority when the ship was cleared, but who cleared it? Was it the person who had put the cargo on board, who fixed the destination of the ship, and who could not clear the ship until she was loaded? That was impossible, because they could not clear the ship until they knew what she had got on board. They must know the actual quantity on board before they could clear the ship and put in the bills of lading. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a great mistake in departing from the recognised custom, and he should support his hon. friend's Amendment. Another point to consider was that ships were getting larger every year, and cargoes were frequently made up of two or three kinds of coal from different collieries. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment.

contended that the arguments used by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street applied with much greater force to manufactured fuel. In many cases, for instance, the manufacturers of fuel might have a contract with an agent at Swansea. They made their contracts, having received instructions from the purchaser of the manufactured article. They made contracts extending, perhaps, for months with a foreign firm, who had to provide the ships. How on earth were they to deal with a case of that kind? How would the clause work? Was the entry and clearance of the fuel to be done before anything went on, and before the foreign ship arrived at Swansea? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised them, in regard to the coal ingredients, that there was to be some drawback or concession. If the coal ingredients were entered and cleared under 6s. per ton value, then there was to be no tax at all. He wished to know when and where this determination of the question whether there was or was not to be a tax upon the coal ingredients was to take place. He only mentioned this as an instance of the difficulties pointed out by his hon. friend behind him.

said he wished to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that the ship which was brought to the port for the purpose of loading coal for export was not always well known either to the exporter or the colliery owner. The exporter might put on a couple of thousand tons, but he might not get it all from one colliery, but perhaps from several collieries. No colliery owner could possibly tell whether his coal was going to be included or excluded in the margin allowed. On the other hand, the merchant knew exactly how much coal he was taking from the colliery owner, and it seemed to him, from every point of view, and from the point of view of business finance above all, that the exporter, who arranged and who knew exactly how much he was going to take from each colliery, should be the person who should pay the duty.

said this schedule raised a most important question, which required further consideration. When the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876 was passed it was presumed that there would be no such thing as export duties to consider. The whole machinery for the collection of Customs duties, which was extremely complicated, was contrived for import duties alone. For the collection of the export duty on coal the Customs Consolidation Act would not serve their purpose. Regulations had been piled up in the most minute manner under the Customs Consolidation Act, with the sole view of dealing with imports, and they must now find out a corresponding amount of regulation, with the view of dealing with export duties. The hon. Member quoted Sections 25 and 55 of the Customs Consolidation Act to show that the liability to pay the duties was expressly defined and placed upon the importer. The act on which duties were to be paid was the act of importation, and that also was defined most precisely. The Bill now before the Committee and the schedules thereof would have to be supplemented by similar provisions with regard to exportation. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or anyone else who could answer, what was exportation? What was the moment when the tax applied, and who was the exporter? The first clause of the fourth schedule said—

"Coal shall not be shipped for exportation from Great Britain or Ireland or carriage coastwise unless entry and clearance thereof have been made before shipment in such manner as the Commissioners of Customs direct."

The inference from that was that the liability would be placed upon the shipper, but where was the express liability placed upon the shipper? It was not in this Bill or the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876. The moment of importation they knew in the case of goods imported, but where was the definition of the moment of exportation? It would be necessary to define who the shipper or exporter was. His belief was that it was the exporter who should be liable to pay the export duty. There was an utter absence of definition in the Bill, and when it was passed it would be necessary to pass an Act amending the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, taking into account exports just as the Act mentioned took into view imports, and imports alone, and defined who should make the entry and pay the duty.

said there was a practical difficulty which occurred to anyone possessing some familiarity with litigation arising out of the loading of coal vessels. The hon. Member for King's Lynn had pointed out, under Section 3, Sub-section 4, that the office of the schedule was to impose a duty on the exportation of coal, which was to be collected in the manner specified, He gathered from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he conceded that the person to pay the duty was the exporter; in other words, it was the person who was responsible for the exportation of the coal who was to pay the duty. If one turned to the schedule it was obvious that the duty was cast upon some person who might or might not be the exporter, and who was at the time compelled to give the necessary security for the payment of the duty, but who was by no means necessarily responsible for the exportation of the coal. In other words, the duty was to be paid prior to the shipment of the coal. It was doubtful sometimes whether the vessel was bound for a home or a foreign port, for when the coal was shipped, the shipper might not have made up his mind whether the destination might be the Thames, Holland or Belgium, or the Mediterranean. Therefore he had to pay the duty which would ultimately be paid back to him when the necessary formalities had been gone through. The only person who was the exporter of the coal was the holder of the bill of lading. In most cases he would direct the destination, and he could not be the holder of the bill of lading until the cargo had been put on board, because it was after the cargo had been put on board that the master of the vessel signed the bill of lading. As a matter of fact, they were imposing the duty before occasion had arisen to determine who was to pay, and in respect to what document the amount of duty was to be ascertained, and the true measure determined. He had made that criticism in no sense of hostility to the machinery of the schedule, but by way of suggestion. Why should not the Chancellor of the Exchequer provide that the holder of the bill of lading should pay for the duty upon cargo when he cleared the ship? What practical difficulty was there to such an arrangement? He might point out that the advantage to the revenue was very great. There might be very great difficulty in getting the duty before the coal was shipped, but the moment the cargo was put on board the document or title existed. There was security upon which the amount of duty might be deposited with the banker, and the revenue would have no difficulty whatever in collecting it. He suggested that this machinery of the schedule would turn out extremely inconvenient and unworkable, and would result in embarrassing questions before shipment.

Various methods have been proposed for the purpose of meeting the difficulties suggested by the reading of this schedule, but the effective answer is that this has been in operation for three months, and that it has worked with perfect ease. [An HON. MEMBER: No.] It has worked, at all events, with very great ease to almost everyone concerned. It has worked with precision, and I am assured by those who have the best apportunities for knowing that in the future it will work much better than any of the numerous plans which have been thrown out in the course of the discussion. I would venture to offer one word of criticism on what fell from the hon. and learned Member who has just sat down. He made a mistake in assuming that it is the intention of the Legislature to designate any particular person to pay the tax. That is not what the Legislature has done, as is to be gathered from the third clause of the fourth schedule, which says in express terms—

"If any person ships or attempts to ship coal without complying with or in contravention of the foregoing provisions of this schedule, or if the master of a ship commits an offence under section one hundred and forty-two of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876 (which relates to deviations from coasting voyages), he shall be liable to the same penalty to which a person is liable under section one hundred and eighty-six of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, for illegally importing goods the importation of which is prohibited."

The intention of the Legislature can be gathered from the clause, which declares that a certain duty is imposed on all coal exported, and the question at what point the duty is to be collected is a matter of convenience of collection. If my hon. and learned friend will examine the matter more fully he will see that the difficulties are almost insuperable in collecting the duty at any other point than where the entry is made.

Power is given to the Commissioner of Customs as to how and when the drawback is to be paid, and security will be taken as to what was the amount of the shipment. All that, I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman, will occasion no difficulty whatever in practice, because care will be taken for the payment of the proper amount, and therefore all the adjusting, if any is required, will be made before the coal is actually shipped. It is said "How is the shipper to deal with these questions when they arise?" The merchant who is wanting the coal exported will come to the help of the man who is making the entry. If that help is wanted I am perfectly certain he will get it. The suggestion is made, "Why not make the charge upon the actual exportation at the time when the vessel crosses the extreme limit of the port?" Surely that is not a practical or business like suggestion. Are you to wait till the vessel is a certain distance down the Thames, for instance, and say, "Down to this moment you are not exporting, and up to this time the duty is not to be paid"? It would be equally inconvenient in practice if you were to stop the ship. The convenient way was to pay the duty on entering for shipment and make the adjustments afterwards. Mention was made by the hon. Member for South Shields as to certain payments made on the Tyne; but payments on shipments of cargo and payment on the ship's dues were very different things. The experience of the last two months showed that this was the most convenient way of collecting the duty. I am not at all embarrassed by the case presented by the hon. Member for King's Lynn. I have gone through the section of the Act of 1876, and I do not think that the working of the scheme is impossible. I think it is perfectly simple, and for the last two months there has been no difficulty whatever.

I say that the difficulties would be a hundred-fold greater with any other system than that adopted in the Bill. I do not see for practical purposes any great difference as regards the merits, or claims to consideration, between the man who enters the coal for shipment, knowing it is to be exported, and the man who after it has been put on board ship takes it away. They seem to stand on the same footing; and it is only a matter of convenience at what point the duty is to be paid. I submit that the scheme adopted in this schedule is by far the best.

said that the person who paid the 1s. duty would be the coalowner, for the price he got was f.o.b. the ship.

said that the contracts now made were f.o.b. prices, and that would include the 1s. which would be collected for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now, the question he wished to put to the right hon. Gentleman was, how would that affect wages?

* : That does not seem to me relevant to the Amendment now before the Committee.

said that if a contract was made for 10s. a ton f.o.b., and if the coalowner had to pay the 1s., it would reduce the price realised for the coal to 9s. There was in the North of England and in some districts in South Wales a system of regulating wages by what was known as pit-mouth prices. The f.o.b. price was taken as a starting point, from which they realised what was the selling price at the pit's mouth. If the f.o.b. price was 10s., and the 1s. duty and the railway freight and certain other incidental expenses were deducted, it would make the pit's mouth price 6s., by which the wages would be regulated. He therefore asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer so to arrange matters that the 1s. should be paid by the man who made the contract, and not by the man who shipped the coal.

said he was very sorry indeed to have to go against his hon. friend on this point. Of course, they represented different interests. According to the present arrangements, he workmen in South Wales would retain their portion of the 1s., so far as their employers paid it. He must, there- fore vote with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this case.

thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met the coalowners very fairly, and had given them more consideration than he usually extended to that side of the House. He had listened to the coalowners and the shipowners, and he deeply sympathised with them. One would really think that this tax on coal was pauperising them, and that after a while they would scarcely be able to get their bread. He had heard of a millionaire who imagined he was a pauper, and who went to his own office regularly to get his weekly wage paid to him. The shipowners and the coalowners seemed to be something of the same sort of people, and imagined that they were all to be paupers in a very short time. His objection to the whole thing was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not tax all coal at the pit's mouth; it would have saved him a lot of this see-saw work, and these profound propositions which were not understood by the ordinary lay mind. He would then have paid the tax with more pleasure than he paid others.

* : I hope that the debate will not be prolonged. I can assure the Committee that I am not going to allow this tax to be destroyed by throwing difficulties in the way of its collection. I have done my best to make reasonable concessions. We have had a system of collecting the tax which has been going on for two months, and which has worked with comparative smoothness. There have, of course, been difficulties between the coalowners and the shippers; but these difficulties will not exist in the future, as both the coalowners and shippers will look after their own interests. If there is any present difficulty for which the hon. Member for Monmouth can suggest a remedy, I shall be glad to consider his suggestion; but I hope we may now be allowed to divide on the Amendment, which, to my mind, would put the tax entirely on the wrong shoulders.

said he scarcely thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman had quite taken in the true position of matters. At the present time what the Government proposed to do was to have two sets of Customs payers. The hon. Gentleman wanted the shipper to pay the duty, and he wished the ship's dues to be paid by another party altogether. That would increase the work considerably. It would greatly lessen the difficulties of those who have to pay the duty, and the other dues and charges on ships and cargoes, if they were all collected at the same time. As to the alleged smooth way in which the collection had worked, they all knew that the duties had been paid under protest, and more would be heard of the matter before it was settled. He protested against the suggestion that all coalowners were millionaires. He was prepared to prove, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's own figures, that the coal industry was not a profitable industry. [Laughter.] He did not make that statement without knowing what he spoke about, and he asked the hon. Members who laughed to get up and disprove his figures when he had an opportunity of presenting them. He agreed with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that the tax was not the most serious difficulty in connection with this matter. They would find that the shipment of coal would be harassed in innumerable ways, to its serious disadvantage.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 197; Noes, 116. (Division List No. 307.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Baird, John George Alexander

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Balcarres, Lord

Bousfield, William Robert

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Brymer, William Ernest

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

Bull, William James

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bartley, George C. T.

Bullard, Sir Harry

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Arrol, Sir William

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Butcher, John George

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Austin, Sir John

Bignold, Arthur

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Bigwood, James

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

Ratcliff, R. F

Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Hogg, Lindsay

Reed, Sir E. James (Cardiff)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'c

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Reid, James (Greenock)

Chapman, Edward

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Horner, Frederick William

Rentoul, James Alexander

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hoult, Joseph

Renwick, George

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

Richards, Henry Charles

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

Rigg, Richard

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson.

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Jordan, Jeremiah

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Cranborne, Viscount

Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

Round, James

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Keswick, William

Rutherford, John

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Kimber, Henry

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Denny, Colonel

Law, Andrew Bonar

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Lawson, John Grant

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Dickson, Charles Scott

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lewis, John Herbert

Smith, HC (North'mb.Tyneside

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lowe, Francis William

Spear, John Ward

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

Duke, Henry Edward

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Stock, James Henry

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

Macdona, John Cumming

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B. (Cambs.

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Thompson, Dr EC (Monaghan N

Fisher, William Hayes

Majendie, James A. H.

Thornton, Percy M.

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Tuffnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

Mitchell, William

Valentia, Viscount

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Warde, Col. C. E.

Garfit, William

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Webb, Colonel William George

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh

Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Morrison, James Archibald

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Mount, William Arthur

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Grenfell, William Henry

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Hammond, John

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Wylie, Alexander

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert W.

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Pierpoint, Robert

Younger, William

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Henderson, Alexander

Pretyman, Ernest George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Randles, John S.

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Duffy, William J.

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Cawley, Frederick

Edwards, Frank

Ambrose, Robert

Channing, Francis Allston

Farrell, James Patrick

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Colville, John

Fenwick, Charles

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Ffrench, Peter

Bell, Richard

Crean, Eugene

Flynn, James Christopher

Blake, Edward

Cullinan, J.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Boland, John

Daly, James

Gilhooly, James

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Boyle, James

Delany, William

Grant, Corrie

Brigg, John

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

Dillon, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Burke, E. Haviland-

Donelan, Captain A.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Burt, Thomas

Doogan, P. C.

Helme, Norval Watson

Caldwell, James

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Holland, William Henry

Joicey, Sir James

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Joyce, Michael

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

Lambert, George

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Leamy, Edmund

O'Doherty, William

Stevenson, Francis S.

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Sullivan, Donal

Levy, Maurice

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Lundon, W.

O'Dowd, John

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Thomson, F. W. (Yorks, W. R.)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

M'Dermott, Patrick

O'Malley, William

Tully, Jasper

M'Fadden, Edward

O'Mara, James

Weir, James Galloway

M'Govern, T.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

White, George (Norfolk)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Mooney, John J.

Partington, Oswald

White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Perks, Robert William

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Murnaghan, George

Power, Patrick Joseph

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Murphy, John

Priestley, Arthur

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Reddy, M.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Norman, Henry

Redmond, William (Clare)

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Robson, William Snowdon

Yoxall, James Henry

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Roche, John

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. M'Laren and Mr. Brynmor Jones.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

* moved to omit Sub-section 1 of the second part of the Fourth Schedule, which provided that Section 20 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876 (which has reference to the effect of changes of duty on existing contracts), as extended by Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1900, should apply to the imposition of the export duty on coal with the substitution of the exportation of coal for the clearance and delivery of goods from the warehouse.

pointed out that it was a very rare thing for the shippers of coal to have bills of lading, and he thought some words ought to be added to make the effect of this Amendment perfectly clear.

Amendment agreed to.

* said that Sub-section 3 provided that Sections 16, 100, 102, and 114 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876 (which relates to the shipping and water carriage of goods), should apply to coals in the same manner as they apply to drawback goods. He had Amendments on the Paper to omit Sections 16 and 114, but he would only move to omit Section 114. At the same time he desired to point out that the wording of Section 16 of the Act was never intended to apply to coal, and he could not help feeling that some difficulty might arise in its administration. He thought some words should be added to make it applicable.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 9, line 20, to leave out the words 'one hundred and fourteen.'"—( Mr. Tomlinson. )

Question proposed, "That the words 'one hundred and fourteen' stand part of the Schedule."

* pointed out that it was necessary to give the customs officials some control of the kind given in these sections in order to prevent coal from being shipped without payment of the tax. If there was a demand to ship coal from any particular place arrangements would be made accordingly. It was necessary to retain Section 16, but he would agree to the omission of Section 114.

said that, so far as he could understand, Sections 16 and 114 of the Act of 1876 could scarcely be applicable to coal without great modifications. It appeared to him that the Customs authorities would have the control of the places where coal was shipped, and they might prohibit the shipping of coal at any place or time which was inconvenient for them. Coal was shipped during the whole twenty-four hours, the hours of the Customs officers were from nine to four, and a great great deal of overtime would have to be paid in consequence to the officers. All the docks belonging to private companies where coal was shipped would be closed, and shippers would be prohibited from shipping from those places unless a customs officer was there. This control would put a stop to the industry. This Government had never ceased harrying every industry since they came into office. He urged the right hon. Gentleman to adopt some broad regulations which could be easily worked. If the right hon. Gentleman was not prepared to give some further consideration to the matter he (Sir James Joicey) would be compelled to move Amendments at the Report stage.

* said he had agreed to omit Section 114. The hon. Member was entirely mistaken as to the spirit in which these powers had been exercised and would be exercised. Everything would be done to avoid harassing interference with the trade.

said he was extremely glad to hear that statement. He knew perfectly well that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to deal harshly with the coal trade, but—

* : I have already agreed that Section 114 shall not apply to the coal trade. What is the use of the hon. Gentleman continuing to discuss the question?

said he was perfectly satisfied with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, but it was an important matter, and he did not intend to be "rushed" out of his right to criticise the Amendment. He would only say that he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the possibility of introducing words on Report which would prevent the harassing of the trade. If the right hon. Gentleman did that, he would rest content.

Question put, and negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Fourth Schedule of the Bill."

said that many in his constituency looked with some alarm on the wide powers given by Section 16 of the Customs Consolidation Act to the Board of Customs. The Board might order that coal should not be exported from Neath or from Port Talbot. These clauses of the Act were proper clauses when applied to the importation of goods, but their effect on the exportation of goods had never been thought out. It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say the clause would be administered in a good spirit and in such a way as to encourage industry; but when Parliament was legislating the matter ought to be made absolutely clear.

* said Section 16 distinctly applied to the exportation of goods. Of course there could be no idea of using it in the way the hon. Gentleman suggested. The thing would be impossible. If the hon. Gentleman would suggest words limiting its application he would be prepared to consider them. There must be some power of this sort, otherwise coal might be exported from the sea shore or anywhere.

said that, having regard to what the right hon. Gentleman had said, he would say no more, except that he would endeavour to find some limiting words which might be inserted.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 173; Noes, 107. (Division List No. 308.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Bigwood, James

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bousfield, William Robert

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Bull, William James

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Arrol, Sir William

Bullard, Sir Harry

Cranborne, Viscount

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Burt, Thomas

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Austin, Sir John

Butcher, John George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Baird, John G. Alexander

Cavendish, V C W (Derbyshire)

Denny, Colonel

Balcarres, Lord

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

Dickson, Charles Scott

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Bartley, George C. T.

Chapman, Edward

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol)

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lawson, John Grant

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Duke, Henry Edward

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Ropner, Col. Robert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Long, Rt. H. Walter (Bristol, S.)

Round, James

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Lowe, Francis William

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Rutherford, John

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Sadler, Col. Samuel A.

Fisher, William Hayes

Macdona, John Cumming

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. A.

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

M'Calmont, Cl. H. L. B. (Cambs

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S W.

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside

Garfit, William

M'Laren, Chas. Benjamin

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Majendie, James A. H.

Spear, John Ward

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Melville, Brresford Valentine

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby-(Salop.

Middlemore, John Throgm'rt'n

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Stock, James Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ

Grenfell, Wm. Henry

Morrison, James Archibald

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Depford)

Thornton, Percy M.

Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mid'x

Moulton, John Fletcher

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.

Mount, William Arthur

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute

Valentia, Viscount

Henderson, Alexander

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Hickman, Sir Alfred

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Webb, Colonel William George

Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Hogg, Lindsay

Pierpoint, Robert

Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

Hope, JF. (Sheffield, Brightside

Plummer, Walter R.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Horner, Frederick William

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Howard, John (Kent, Favershm

Pretyman, Ernest George

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Randles, John S.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Ratcliff, R. F.

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Reid, James (Greenock)

Wylie, Alexander

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury)

Renwick, George

Younger, William

Keswick, William

Richards, Henry Charles

Kimber, Henry

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

Law, Andrew Bonar

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Farrell, James Patrick

Murnaghan, George

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Fenwick, Charles

Murphy, John

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Ffrench, Peter

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Ambrose, Robert

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Norton, Captain Cecil Wm.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Gilhooly, James

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Bell, Richard

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Blake, Edward

Grant, Corrie

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Boland, John

Hammond, John

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Doherty, William

Boyle, James

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Brigg, John

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Holland, Wm. Henry

O'Dowd, John

Caldwell, James

Joicey, Sir James

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

Jones, David Brynm'r (Swans'a

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Colville, John

Jordon, Jeremiah

O'Malley, William

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Joyce, Michael

O'Mara, James

Crean, Eugene

Leamy, Edmund

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cullinan, J.

Levy, Maurice

Partington, Oswald

Daly, James

Lewis, John Herbert

Perks, Robert William

Dalziel, James Henry

Lundon, W.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Priestley, Arthur

Delany, William

Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

Reddy, M.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh

M'Dermott, Patrick

Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

Dillon, John

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, William (Clare)

Donelan, Capt. A.

M'Govern, T.

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Doogan, P. C.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Robson, William Snowdon

Duffy, William J.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Roche, John

Edwards, Frank

Mooney, John J.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Schwann, Charles E.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Tully, Jasper

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Weir, James Galloway

Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

Sullivan Donal

White, George (Norfolk)

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

White, Luke (Yorks., E.R.)

TELLEES FOR THE NOES— Mr. Yoxall and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.

Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W. R.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 248.]

Supply

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Civil Service Estimates, 1901–2

Class II

Motion made, and Question proposed' "That a sum, not exceeding £50,272, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for the Salaries and other Expenses in the Department of His Majesty's Treasury and Subordinate Departments."

* rose to move the reduction of the Vote by £100 in respect of the salary of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

called attention to the fact that forty Members were not present.

* : A division was taken just before the adjournment, at which more than forty Members were present.

May I point out to you, Sir, that the division was taken at twenty minutes past eight?

House counted, and forty Members being found present—

* said the Financial Secretary to the Treasury occupied a dual position, for he was not only Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but he represented the Postmaster General in this House. With so much work in hand, and so many duties to perform, he failed to understand how the hon. Gentleman could find time to go careering through the country electioneering as he did on 21st June at Stratford-on-Avon.

With excellent results, anyway.

* said he had nothing to do with election results. That was not his business. His business was to attend in that House and do the best he could for his constituents. To make speeches at elections, to sip tea with Primrose Dames, might be very agreeable, very delightful, but the duty of a Minister was to be in that House attending to the duties of his office. His complaint against the hon. Gentleman was that he was spending his time electioneering at Stratford-on-Avon on a day when there were seven questions on the Paper addressed to him. The hon. Member for Fulham was told off to read the answers to these questions. Any boy picked up in the street could do that. One of the questions referred to the steamer plying between Mallaig and Stornoway, and was a matter of vital importance to his constituents in the island of Lewis. The result some day might be very serious if the old steamer went to the bottom of the sea. The hon. Member treated this matter lightly; if he had any spare time, instead of going electioneering he might go to his room, put on his thinking cap, and see whether anything could be done to improve the Stornoway mail service. The hon. Member's predecessor worked energetically, and he was successful. If instead of going off electioneering the hon. Member followed the example of his father the Colonial Secretary, and sent a sixpenny telegram that every vote recorded for the Liberal candidate was a vote for the Boers, that would have done the whole business. Who gave the hon. Gentleman permission to go? Was he a law unto himself? If a Minister wanted to take a holiday let him come to this House and ask permission. There were grievances enough not only from Scotland, but from Ireland and Wales, in connection with the Post Office to call for all the attention the hon. Member could give (Cries of "Divide.") They were not going to divide yet. Although there was a vast amount of work in the two Departments with which the hon. Gentleman was connected, he treated it airily and went off and enjoyed himself. Did he take French leave, and was it the practice of Ministers to do so and to neglect their duties?

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries) be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salary of the Financial Secretary of the Treasury."—( Mr. Weir. )

Really I am ashamed to have to occupy any part of the time of the Committee on so trifling a matter, but perhaps courtesy to the horn. Gentleman demands that I should, in the briefest possible way, reply to the speech which he has made. I understand that the hon. Gentleman has complained that one day during the present session of Parliament I was not here to answer in person questions addressed to me; and the hon. Member said that the answers given by my hon. friend the Member for Fulham were not my answers, but those of a subordinate clerk. It never has been considered by this House an obligation on Ministers, no matter what occupation they might have, that they should always be here at question time, although Ministers have always sought to answer questions on the day on which they are put if possible. It has been the ordinary practice of the House for a Minister who is prevented from attending to ask one of his colleagues to answer the question, if he did not ask the hon. Member to postpone it to another day. It is within my power, within the rules of the House (A voice from the Irish benches—"What rule?") Well, within the ordinary courtesies of the House. If on that occasion I had asked the hon. Member to postpone his question I feel quite certain he would have done so. I did not do so; but in the morning I had settled the answers to all the questions, and not being able to be present myself I asked my hon. friend to read the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question on my behalf.The hon. Gentleman asked me in this connection one specific question, namely, by whose leave I absented myself. I absented myself on my own authority, without thinking it necessary to ask any leave whatever. If my conduct merited censure it would have been for the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, of which I am Secretary, to have expressed their displeasure, and had they done so it would have entailed consequences which I need not particularise. But the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury did not express any displeasure, and, while I will do at all times all in my power to answer all questions with the utmost despatch and courtesy, I must reserve to myself a discretion to take similar steps in the future if I feel it necessary, and I am sure the Committee may rely that I shall not neglect the work entrusted to me.

supported the motion for a reduction. The hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury had not given him that satisfaction to which he was entitled in regard to the publication of the Brehon Laws. For twenty-two years there had been no publication of these laws, and when he put questions to the representative of the Treasury he had always been put off. This was a matter of very vital importance to Ireland. One could not help being struck with the fact that there was at present an enormous educational movement in Ireland—

* : There is a special Vote for the editing of the Brehon Laws, and the hon. Gentleman ought to ask his question on that Vote.

said he was not aware of that. He understood that he would be able to raise the point on the Vote for the salary of the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He certainly reserved his right to raise this very important question on another occasion.

said he joined with his hon. friend in supporting the reduction of the salary of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and he thought the Committee should resent the policy which the Government had adopted. The representative of the Post Office in the House was the Financial Secretary of the Treasury.

said the point he wished to make was that they had in this House no representative of the Post Office except the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary of the Treasury, and he wished to complain of the manner in which he had discharged his duties in that regard in the House.

* : If the hon. Gentleman wishes to complain of the hon. Gentleman in respect to his work in connection with the Treasury, this is the proper time to do so; but if he complains of any action or non-action in respect of the Post Office, that should be raised on the Post Office Vote.

said that the hon. Gentleman represented the Board of Works Department in Ireland, and they had to deal with him on these matters.

said he would pass that point, and proceed to complain of the manner in which the hon. Gentleman attended to his duties as Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman did not give that attention to them which they ought to expect. The hon. Gentleman had stated that he was away electioneering, and with good results. It might have been with good results for the family parties that still lined the Treasury benches, but instead of attending to his duties he had taken French leave, and gone away of his own accord electioneering in the country. That was a matter of which they had a right to complain. The hon. Gentleman was asked who had given him permission to go electioneering when he was in the position of Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and he had replied that he took the permission himself; but the salary they were voting covered the days the hon. Member had absented himself from the House as well as those days he was present, and he thought the country was entitled to some rebate and to knock something off his salary for the days he had spent on his own private business, which he found so congenial to him, at Stratford-on-Avon. The hon. Gentleman had said that the results were satisfactory. He would not be in, order in asking how those results had been brought about—for instance, by the intimidation of voters; but he certainly thought that while Parliament was paying an official of this description to attend to the duties which had been assigned to him by Parliament he should, be present on the days when Parliament sat, and the hon. Gentleman should not meet the complaint which had been made in the flippant manner he had done. The hon. Gentleman said that his visit had been attended with good results. They might be good results for the family interest, but they were not good results which they, on that side of the House, approved of. The people of Ireland paid their proportion of the hon. Gentleman's salary just as much as Gentlemen on the Government benches. and it was not in accordance with the fitness of things that an official like the hon. Gentleman should take upon himself, when he was paid by Liberals and Tories alike, to utilise his time in going; on electioneering tours. His hon. friend the Member for Ross-shire had done a very proper thing in moving to reduce the hon. Gentleman's salary by £100, which would be about the amount to which, he would be entitled for the days; he was absent; and he was certain that the hon. Gentleman would have sufficient spirit to refund that £100, or give it to some hospital.

said he desired, to join in the reproaches made against, the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, because he had. Seen reports of the speeches made by that hon. Gentleman which were, in his opinion, not only improper speeches for any gentleman occupying the position the hon. Gentleman did to make, but they were insulting to the Irish Members.

* : I do not think, the hon. Member is entitled on this Vote to criticise the speeches of the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

I rise to a point of order. The hon. Gentleman ought to have been in the House when he was making his speeches at Stratford-on-Avon.

said he must obey the ruling of the Chairman, though he did so most reluctantly, for when he saw the report of the speeches of the hon. Gentleman he thought a very grave insult had been made to the Irish Members, and he intended to raise the question in the House on the hon. Gentleman's salary. He would put this view of the matter to the Government that public servants, receiving the money of the State, which money was contributed alike by Conservatives and Liberals, and by all classes, creeds, and nationalities, should attend to the duties of their office, and should leave to their party managers the conduct of elections in the country, especially when feeling ran high, and when there was danger of the public peace being broken, as was the case at Stratford-on-Avon. He had no fault personally to find with the hon. Member. On any question he had asked the hon. Gentleman had shown himself willing to give any information in his power. But on principle they were bound to protest against such action as the hon. Gentleman had been guilty of on this occasion in filling the position of a political agent while he was drawing a salary as a Minister in this House. That was a position which—he said it i with all respect—the hon. Gentleman ought not to occupy, and a position to which sufficient attention had not been given in the House. In regard to the general management of the office of which the hon. Gentleman was one of the official representatives in this House, he would say, subject to the ruling of the Chairman, that they ought to be entitled to discuss all the dealings of the Treasury with Ireland. Were they not entitled to discuss these dealings, and as to whether Ireland got fair treatment from the Treasury? He was sorry he was precluded from discussing the Post Office or the loans obtained from the Treasury in respect of public works—of which they had great cause to complain. The delays in getting these loans and the niggardly policy of the Treasury handicapped the local authorities in Ireland in carrying out works of public utility and great public necessity—especially in connection with the Labourers Acts and the Public Health Acts.

* : These questions will have to be discussed when they appear in Votes of diverse denominations—the Public Works Office in Ireland, the Loan Commission, and so forth.

said that if that was the case they ought to commence the fight on the 1st of January, and then they would not finish on the 31st December of the same year, because the time of the House was so much mismanaged, and they had practically no time to discuss these important matters. They had had only two days for Irish Supply.

asked whether, on this general Vote, they could not discuss the whole conduct of the Treasury.

* : I do not think so. The conduct of the Treasury must be discussed on each case on which the Treasury's consent is asked for or refused for a sufficient sum for each Department.

said that, according to that ruling, it would be impossible to discuss the action of the Treasury as a whole. He respectfully submitted that on the main question of this Treasury Vote it was perfectly competent to discuss the policy of the Treasury.

* : On the Treasury Vote there is generally speaking nothing to discuss except the constitution of the office. According to rulings which had been given during many years, wherever there is a special subject taken in a Vote, even though it may be connected with the Treasury, then is the proper time to discuss it.

said he was perfectly clear in his memory that on previous occasions it was held to be open to discuss the question of the general policy of the Treasury. There were various matters concerned with the Board of Works and other Departments, which they wished to discuss. For instance, it could not be contended that an advance to the Treasury could not be discussed on the Treasury Vote, because that would be above the heads of all the Departments.

* : I carefully guarded myself by saying that there might be some questions that might be discussed. All I have said at present is, that wherever there is special mention of some particular matter, even though the Treasury may be brought in, it is not proper to discuss it on the Treasury Vote. It must be discussed in the particular place in the Votes where it is to be found.

said that the ruling of the Chairman brought the Committee back to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Ross-shire, which was moved mainly in order to call attention to the conduct of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in connection with the Stratford-on-Avon election. He deplored the action of Members of the Government, who were supposed to give their time exclusively to their duties, interfering in elections and giving what he could only regard as a fictitious importance to the particular contests in which they engaged. He should like to know whether the hon. Gentleman went to Stratford-on-Avon with the cognisance or permission of the First Lord of the Treasury. He hoped there would be some further explanation. After all, it was the duty of the Opposition to see that public money was not wasted. In that case public money had been wasted in a most scandalous manner. The hon. Gentleman was absent when he should have been answering his hon. friend's questions, and he thought the Committee had a right to protest against it, and to insist that Ministers who were earning salaries should not engage in election contests. He did not apply that to one party more than to another, but the public business should be discharged by Gentlemen who had undertaken it. They all knew, when a Ministry was being formed, how eagerly the chances of the different candidates were watched, and it was only fair and reasonable, when gentlemen were appointed, that they should conscientiously and fairly discharge their duties. The hon. Gentleman had already informed the Committee in an off-hand manner that his action was attended with good results. Of course, he was entitled to take what credit he could out of what they could not, however, otherwise regard than as a misfortune to the cause of truth and justice and righteousness. The hon. Gentleman was badly engaged, both from the point of view of his position in the Government and as a responsible politician, though whether he was responsible or not was doubtful, especially after the manner in which he alluded to the Irish Members. For these reasons he would support the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 112; Noes, 221. (Division List No. 309).

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

Edwards, Frank

Mooney, John J.

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Allen, Chas. P.(Glouc., Stroud)

Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Ambrose, Robert

Fenwick, Charles

Murnaghan, George

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Ffrench, Peter

Murphy, John

Boland, John

Flynn, James Christopher

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Gilhooly, James

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Boyle, James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Brigg, John

Hammond, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Holland, William Henry

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Caldwell, James

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

O'Doherty, William

Cameron, Robert

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Joyce, Michael

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Cawley, Frederick

Layland-Barratt, Francis

O'Dowd, John

Colville, John

Leamy, Edmund

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Leigh, Sir Joseph

O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n, N.

Crean, Eugene

Leng, Sir John

O'Malley, William

Cullinan, J.

Levy, Maurice

O'Mara, James

Daly, James

Lundon, W.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Delany, William

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Power, Patrick Joseph

Dewar, J. A. (Inverness-sh.)

M'Cann, James

Price, Robt. John

Dillon, John

M'Crae, George

Priestley, Arthur

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Dermottt Patrick

Rea, Russell

Doogan, P. C.

M'Fadden, Edward

Reddy, M.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Duffy, William J.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Redmond, Wm. (Clare)

Rigg, Richard

Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Soames, Arthur W.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Sullivan, Donal

Williams, O. (Merioneth)

Roche, John

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Wilson, John (Durham Mid.)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thomas, JA (Gl'morgan, Gower

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Thomson, F.W. (York, W. R.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Schwann, Charles E.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Scott, Charles P. (Leigh)

Tully, Jasper

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Weir and Mr. J. P. Farrell.

Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford

White, George (Norfolk)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Duke, Henry Edward

Lowe, Francis William

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Allhusen, Augustus Hy. E.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Macdona, John Cumming

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Finch, George H.

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

M'Calmont, Col. H. LB (Cambs.

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Arrol, Sir William

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Majendie, James A. H.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, SW

Manners, Lord Cecil

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Foster, Sir W. (Derby County)

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Garfit, William

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Middlemore, John Throgmot'n

Baird, John George Alexander

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Moleworth, Sir Lewis

Balcarres, Lord

Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby-(Salop

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Moore, Wm. (Antrim, N.)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

Balfour, Maj KR (Christchurch)

Grenfell, William Henry

Morgan, Hn Fred. (Monm'thsh.

Banbury, Frederick George

Gretton, John

Morrell, George Herbert

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol)

Groves, James Grimble

Morrison, James Archibald

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G.(Mid'x

Mount, William Arthur

Bignold, Arthur

Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Bigwood, James

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Bousfield, William Robert

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Newdigate, Francis Alex.

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Nicholson, William Graham

Bull, William James

Haslett, Sir James Horner

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Helder, Augustus

Partington, Oswald

Burt, Thomas

Helme, Norval Watson

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

Butcher, John George

Henderson, Alexander

Penn, John

Carlile, William Walter

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Pierpoint, Robert

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

Plummer, Walter R.

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hogg, Lindsay

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

Horner, Frederick William

Randles, John S.

Chapman, Edward

Hoult, Joseph

Rasche, Major Frederic Carne

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

Ratcliff, R. F.

Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Rentoul, James Alexander

Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Renwick, George

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Richards, Henry Charles

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rickitt, J. Compton

Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)

Joicey, Sir James

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Cox, Irwin Edward B.

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Cranborne, Viscount

Keswick, William

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Kimber, Henry

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Crossley, Sir Savile

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Ropner, Col. Robert

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Langley, Batty

Round, James

Dalkeith, Earl of

Law, Andrew Bonar

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Lawson, John Grant

Rutherford, John

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Dickson, Charles Scott

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Llewellyn. Evan Henry

Smith, H. C (North'mb T'neside

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Long, Col. Charles W. (Eve-h'm

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Spear, John Ward

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R,

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Valentia, Viscount

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Stock, James Henry

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Warde, Col. C. E.

Wylie, Alexander

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Talbot, Rt. Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Webb, Col. William George

Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Younger, William

Thornton, Percy M.

Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

Tollemache, Henry James

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Tomkinson, James

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Original Question again proposed.

called attention to the fact that the First Lord of the Treasury had two private secretaries at a salary of £300 each, who at the same time occupied the position of first-class clerks at a salary of £900 per annum, so that the right hon. Gentleman had, as a fact, two £1,200 a year men as private secretaries, although nominally they were only £300 men. From the Estimate it appeared that the First Lord of the Treasury had two private secretaries, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had one. In the first place he did not understand why the First Lord of the Treasury had more than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the second why these gentlemen should be taken away from the positions they held as first-class clerks to become private secretaries, and still be paid their salaries as first-class clerks. In order to obtain the information he required, he begged to move that the Vote be reduced by £500.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries) be reduced by £500, in respect of the Salaries of First-Class Clerks."

said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lanark did not appear to understand the facts. One of the private secretaries with this allowance was not a Civil servant, and drew no pay. The custom of the Treasury was that when a clerk with the higher salary was continued in an office it was not for the clerk's benefit, but for the advantage of the office, as a whole. Part of his salary was deducted and paid to another clerk, who performed the ordinary routine work.

said there appeared to be some private arrangement by which someone else was paid for the work that these gentlemen as first-class clerks were supposed to do. He submitted that that was not the way to carry on the business of a great public office like the Treasury. The system was bad, and he would therefore divide the Committee on his motion for reduction.

said if the statement of the Financial Secretary was correct the Estimates were very misleading. He had been utterly unable to follow the argument of the hon. Gentleman, because if the figures in the Estimates were correct, and he assumed that they were, the hon. Member for Mid Lanark was right in his contention. The question which hon. Members had to ask themselves was this: Was it fair to the Treasury or to the taxpayers that these first-class clerks, whose entire attention should be given to their duties, should be taken from their offices and made private secretaries to Ministers? How could they discharge their duties as private secretaries and their duties to the Treasury at the same time? He hoped a division would be insisted upon, and that a great number of the Committee, as representing the taxpayers, would be found to take an interest in this matter, and that they would vote in support of the Amendment.

* said the hon. Gentleman could not be charged with any lack of courage in telling the hon. Member for Mid Lanark that he was not correct in his facts. If there was one man in this House who was correct on all occasions that man was the hon. Member for Mid Lanark. He would not labour the point, but he would allow no one, without a protest, to charge the hon. Member with inaccuracy. There were six first-class clerks employed at £900 a year each, and two of them were told off to act as private secretaries to the First Lord of the Treasury at £300 a year. Surely these clerks had most important duties to perform in their own department. Why could not second-class clerks be taken to do the secretarial work? The predecessor of the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury, acknowledging that it was a bad system, had promised that it should be altered, but things were getting back into the old rut. The system was again growing, and it was necessary that it should be stopped.

said the Financial Secretary had laid down the principle that when these clerks did not discharge certain duties their salaries were reduced. Would the hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to himself, and deduct a portion of his salary in respect of the time he spent electioneering?

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 108; Noes, 218. (Division List No. 310.)

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh'e

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Power, Patrick Joseph

Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

Joyce, Michael

Price, Robert John

Ambrose, Robert

Lambert, George

Priestley, Arthur

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Langley, Batty

Rea, Russell

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Reddy, M.

Boland, John

Leamy, Edmund

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Redmond, Wm. (Clare)

Boyle, James

Leng, Sir John

Rickett, J. Compton

Brigg, John

Levy, Maurice

Rigg Richard

Burke, E. Haviland-

Lewis, John Herbert

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Cameron, Robert

Lundon, W.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Roche, John

Cawley, Frederick

M'Cann, James

Roe, Sir Thomas

Colville, John

M'Crae, George

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Schwann, Charles E.

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Daly, James

Mooney, John J.

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Morton, Edw. J.C. (Devonport)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Murnaghan, George

Stevenson, Francis S.

Delany, William

Murphy, John

Sullivan, Donal

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Dillon, John

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower

Donelan, Capt. A.

Norman, Henry

Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

Doogan, P. C.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Tomkinson, James

Duffy, William J.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Tully, Jasper

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

O'Doherty, William

Weir, James Galloway

Farrell, James Patrick

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

White, George (Norfolk)

Ffrench, Peter

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Dowd, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Gilhooly, James

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Hammond, John

O'Malley, William

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Mara, James

TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Caldwell and Mr. Mansfield.

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Holland, William Henry

Partington, Oswald

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Balcarres, Lord

Bull, William James

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Butcher, John George

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Carlile, William Walter

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Balfour, Maj KR (Christchurch

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Banbury, Frederick George

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H (Bristol

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Arrol, Sir William

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bignold, Arthur

Chapman, Edward

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Bigwood, James

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Bain, Col. James Robt.

Brassey, Albert

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Baird, John George Alex.

Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Ratcliff, R. F.

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Reid, James (Greenock)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Johnstone, Heywood- (Sussex

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Cranborne, Viscount

Joicey, Sir James

Rentoul, James Alexander

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

Renwick, George

Crossley, Sir Savile

Kenyon-Slaney. Col. W (Salop.

Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Keswick, William

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kimber, Henry

Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas Thomson

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Lambton, Hn. Frederick W.

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Law, Andrew Bonar

Robinson, Brooke

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Lawson, John Grant

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Round, James

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Rutherford, John

Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark)

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Duke, Henry Edward

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Elibank, Master of

Lowe, Francis William

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

Finch, George H.

Macdona, John Cumming

Spear, John Ward

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B (Cambs

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Stock, James Henry

Fletcher, Sir Henry

Majendie, James A. H.

Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, SW

Manners, Lord Cecil

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

Tennant, Harold John

Garfit, William

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Middlemore, John T.

Thornton, Percy M.

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Tollemache, Henry James

Gore, Hn GR .C. Ormsby-(Salop

Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants.)

Tomlinson. Wm. Edw. Murray

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Morgan, David J. (Walthamst.)

Valentia, Viscount

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Morrell, George Herbert

Warde, Col. C. E.

Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Webb, Col. William George

Grenfell, William Henry

Morrisson, James Archibald

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Gretton, John

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

Groves, James Grimble

Mount, William Arthur

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Wilson, AStanley (Yorks, E. R.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon, Robert Wm.

Newdigate, Francis A.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

Nicholson, William Graham

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Harris, Fredk. Leverton

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Parker, Gilbert

Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Paulton, James Mellor

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Pease, J. A. (Saftron Walden)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Helder, Augustus

Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert W.

Wylie, Alexander

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Plummer, Walter R.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Horner, Frederick William

Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edw.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hoult, Joseph

Purvis, Robert

Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

Randles, John S.

Original Question again proposed.

said the first item in the Vote before the Committee was the salary of the First Lord of the Treasury, and last year he thought he was entitled to move a reduction of the salary of the right hon. Gentleman in order to criticise his action as Leader of the House. The First Lord of the Treasury got no salary for his work in this House, which was very hard work, but he got £5,000 a year for doing nothing outside the House. He had inquired what the right hon. Gentleman had to do as First Lord of the Treasury, and he found that he had absolutely nothing to do. That was an extraordinary condition of things, but there it must rest. There was an all-important question which concerned the whole authority and position of the Treasury. The Treasury was a very extraordinary office. It was concerned with every department of the Government, and some time ago an extraordinary controversy arose which was initiated in the country and carried on to another place as to the position and influence of the Treasury, and the results attending that influence. That controversy was carried on by the present Prime Minister, and he wished to have some declaration from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to the extraordinary position taken up by the Prime Minister upon that occasion. He wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to accept the conditions laid down by the Prime Minister. In this controversy the Prime Minister said that the exercising of the powers of the Treasury in governing every department of the Government was not for the public benefit. That was a very serious and solemn statement, and upon another occasion in the same year the Prime Minister referred to the subject in a speech in which he explained that he had not intended any application of these views to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and again referred to the position acquired by the Treasury, and said that, on the whole, he thought that for the purpose of national defence the present condition was not a satisfactory one. That was a very solemn warning coming from the Prime Minister of the country, and it was a warning which in the case of any responsible Minister would have been followed by action. He thought they were entitled to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer accepted that position of the Treasury. Had the Treasury arrogated to itself powers which were injurious to the country and destructive to the national defence? He thought the effect of this language from the Prime Minister had been to loosen the purse-strings of the Treasury. The speeches and principles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were excellent, but his actions in the House of Commons were quite the reverse. While the right hon. Gentleman had been preaching the doctrines of economy and pointing out the terrible danger of increasing public expenditure, he gave the lie to his own speeches by proposing and consenting to enormous increases in the taxation of the country. He wished to know whether the position of the Treasury had been altered. Were they to understand that the Army and Navy Departments were to have a free hand, and that the Treasury grasp upon expenditure was to be relaxed? He took the side of the Treasury in this dispute, and not that of the Prime Minister. In his speech the other day in the City the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that some people imagined that the-public purse had no bottom to it. There appeared to him to be in that speech an indication that the relations between the spending departments and the Treasury were being altered, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was being compelled to open the public purse wider. He thought the House of Commons was entitled to some declaration upon this subject from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

* : The hon. Gentleman has been a long time considering the subject to which he attaches so great an importance. The speeches of the Prime Minister which he quoted were delivered in January of last year, and now, eighteen months after that date, the hon. Gentleman asks me for a solemn declaration in reply to them. This is a free country, and we are all entitled to our own opinions; but I confess that I do not agree with the opinions of the Prime Minister as regards the Treasury, just as, I have no doubt, I sometimes express opinions on other subjects which the Prime Minister does not agree with. As for any change in the position and the action of the Treasury with regard to other Departments of the State during the last few years, that is a pure myth of the imagination of the hon. Member himself. There has been absolutely no change. Such control as is legitimate for the Treasury to exercise is Exercised as much as ever it was, and if the expenditure of the country has largely increased—I am not speaking of war expenditure, because in such a matter as that it is quite impossible for the Treasury to control the Department which has to carry on the war, but of ordinary expenditure—I do not think it is due to the spending Departments so much as to the universal feeling of the present day in favour of increased expenditure. I believe that is the opinion of the great majority of the people. But so far as the vigilance of the Treasury is concerned, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I do my best to keep down expenditure wherever it can be kept down, and I shall continue to do so so long as I have the honour to hold my present office.

said that, with regard to the Statute Law Revision Committee, he complained of the way in which the Statute Law Revision Act was prepared every year, especially with regard to the Acts relating to procedure in Irish county courts. The whole practice of the county courts in Ireland, as far as the renewal of decrees was concerned, was practically in a state of chaos, owing to the repeal of the latter part of the 140th section of the Civil Bill Act, 1851. The county court judge at Donegal had compared the action of the editor of these Acts to the story told of a dog fancier who cropped the ears, docked the tail, and shortened the legs of a greyhound in order to convert it into an Irish terrier.

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I wish to raise a point of order. I understand that the hon. Member is complaining of something done by the Statute Law Revision Committee. Surely it is not in order to do that on the Vote we are now discussing.

* contended that, as this was the Vote for the Statute Law Revision Committee, there must be the salary of some official connected with the Committee in the Vote.

* : The Committee do not receive any salary for their work, but I think matters have in the past been brought up in regard to the work of the Committee upon this Vote. I certainly think that the hon. Member is perfectly entitled to raise this question upon this Vote.

* contended that the present procedure in the Irish county courts did not inspire the public with confidence in the administration of the law in Ireland. He asked that the long-continued practice should be allowed to remain in force, by re-enacting the part of the Act of 1851 repealed, as he thought inadvertently, by the Statute Law Revision Act of 1892.

May I ask a question again on the point of order I understand that the Statute Law Revision Committee recommended certain alterations in the statutes. These were subsequently passed, and were embodied in an Act of Parliament. I ask whether it is in order under those circumstances to discuss the salary of an official of this unpaid Committee, whose work has been passed by both Houses of Parliament.

* thought that criticism on the action of the Committee was possible on this Vote. The hon. Member for North Louth had raised the same questions on this very matter.

* said he objected to the manner in which the work had been done. It was done in a slipshod way. He only wanted that more care should be exercised in the future than in the past, and that the anomalous state of affairs of the county courts of Ireland, caused by the repeal of this enactment, should be remedied.

The hon. Member is evidently not aware that a Bill has actually passed the House of Lords dealing with the subject to which he has called attention.

* : Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that a contentious measure of that kind, introduced in the House of Lords, has no chance of becoming law.

said his hon. friend was perfectly in order. He was impeaching the way in which the statute law revision editor did his work. They trusted to the statute law revision editor and his work. The details of that work were never discussed in the House of Commons. If they were to begin to discuss the details—and perhaps the Nationalist Members would begin—a whole session would not enable them to deal with the matter. If the First Lord of the Treasury had read the Bill passed in the other House he would have found that it did not deal with the grievance of which he complained. What the Upper House wanted to enact was that a decree should not be subject to renewal every year, but should continue in force for six years. That had no chance of becoming law this session or next session, and he now asked that they should be placed in the same position as before the judges discovered the flaw in the Statute Law Revision Act.

called attention to the Vote for the office of Treasury Remembrancer in Ireland. There had not been for years an opportunity of discussing that Vote in the House, and this was only another instance of the way in which questions of great importance had gone on from year to year, without being discussed at all. He asked, Who is this gentleman? Where is he to be found? What does he do? He understood that he was charged with the duty of auditing the accounts of the public departments in Ireland, and acting as a sort of drag or check upon public expenditure in that country. Was it possible for the Treasury Remembrancer to surcharge a public office in Ireland for the misuse of public funds? The Local Government Board in Ireland spent some of its time in surcharging local boards for mistakes their members made. What happened if the Local Government Board spent money in a way not authorised by law, or if the action of the Local Government Board led to an expenditure not authorised by law? Was that Board surcharged by the Treasury Remembrancer?

That belongs to the department of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is an officer of this House and independent of the Treasury.

said the Vote for the Treasury Remembrancer was £38 larger this year than last year What was the reason for the increase?

said the omission on the part of the statute law revision editor was a serious matter, in consequence of which suitors were put at a very great disadvantage, and also to considerable expense. It was not a matter for laughing at. The Attorney General for Ireland smiled. The official referred to had made an omission by which some people in Ireland had been put to considerable expense. Surely, when a ruling had been given that the question was a proper one for discussion it would be courteous on the part of the Minister to give some reply upon it.

said the Committee were entitled to an explanation upon the point raised by the hon. Member for North Donegal. He thought the First Lord of the Treasury should instruct the Attorney General for Ireland to answer. A very specific grievance had been raised by the hon. Member for North Donegal, and it would not take the Attorney General more than a minute to give an assurance that the law, which had been changed as the result of an error, would be put right.

* : That involves alteration of the statute, and that cannot be done in Committee of Supply.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 183; Noes, 112. (Division List No. 311.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Arrol, Sir William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christch'ch.

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Banbury, Frederick George

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Balcarres, Lord

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Bignold, Arthur

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Plummer, Walter R.

Brassey, Albert

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Pretyman, Ernest George

Bull, William James

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Purvis, Robert

Butcher, John George

Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry

Randles, John S.

Carlile, William Walter

Hoult, Joseph

Ratcliff, R. F.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Howard, John (Kent Faversh'm

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hutton, J. (Yorks., N. R.)

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Rentoul, James Alexander

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Renwick, George

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

Chapman, Edward

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen)

Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

Keswick, William

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Law, Andrew Bonar

Robinson, Brooke

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Lawson, John Grant

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Round, James

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Rutherford, John

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Cranborne, Viscount

Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Crossley, Sir Savile

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynes'e

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lowe, Francis William

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Spear, John Ward

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Macdona, John Cumming

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

Stock, James Henry

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B. (Cambs.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Duke, Henry Edward

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Talbot, Rt. Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Majendie, James A. H.

Thornton, Percy M.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Manners, Lord Cecil

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Valentia, Viscount

Finch, George H.

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh.

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Fisher, William Hayes

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Webb, Colonel William George

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Galloway, Wm. Johnson

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Garfit, William

Moore, Wm. (Antrim, N.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

Morrell, George Herbert

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Lincs.

Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Morrison, James Archibald

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Mount, William Arthur

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

Wylie, Alexander

Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS.Edm'nds

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Gretton, John

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Groves, James Grimble

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Nicholson, William Graham

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Parker, Gilbert

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

Peel, Hn. Wm. Rbt. Wellesley

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Caldwell, James

Doogan, P. C.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Causton, Richard Knight

Duffy, William J.

Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

Cawley, Frederick

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Ambrose, Robert

Colville, John

Farrell, James Patrick

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Ffrench, Peter

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Crean, Eugene

Field, William

Bell, Richard

Cullinan, J.

Flynn, James Christopher

Boland, John

Daly, James

Gilhooly, James

Boyle, James

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

Brigg, John

Delany, William

Hammond, John

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Hayden, John Patrick

Burke, E. Haviland-

Dillon, John

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Scale-

Helme, Norval Watson

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Joicey, Sir James

Norman, Henry

Russell, T. W.

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Joyce, Michael

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

Lambert, George

O'Doherty, William

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Langley, Battey

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Stevenson, Francis

Layland-Barratt, Francis

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Sullivan, Donal

Leamy, Edmund

O'Dowd, John

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Leigh, Sir Joseph

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Tennant, Harold John

Leng, Sir John

O'Malley, William

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Levy, Maurice

O'Mara, James

Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

Lewis, John Herbert

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gow'r

Lough, Thomas

Partington, Oswald

Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n N

Lundon, W.

Paulton, James Mellor

Tully, Jasper

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Weir, James Galloway

M'Crae, George

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

White, George (Norfolk)

M'Dermott, Patrick

Power, Patrick Joseph

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

M'Fadden, Edward

Priestley, Arthur

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

M'Govern, T.

Rea, Russell

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Reddy, M.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Mooney, John J.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

Redmond, William (Clare)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Murnaghan, George

Rickett, J. Compton

Murphy, J.

Rigg, Richard

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 218; Noes, 71. (Division List No. 312.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Gretton, John

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Groves, James Grimble

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Colville, John

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cranborne, Viscount

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Arroll, Sir William

Crossley, Sir Savile

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hope, J. F.(Sh'ffield, Brightside

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Bain, Col. James Robert

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hoult, Joseph

Balcarres, Lord

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

Balfour, Rt Hn AJ. (Manchester

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C.

Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Balfour, Maj. KR. (Christch'ch)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Banbury, Frederick George

Doxford, Sir William T.

Joicey, Sir James

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Duke, Henry Edward

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Lambert, George

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Bignold, Arthur

Fielden, Edward B.

Langley, Batty

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Finch, George H.

Law, Andrew Bonar

Brassey Albert

Finlay, Sir Robert B.

Lawson, John Grant

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Fisher, William Hayes

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Bull Wm. James

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Butcher, John George

Galloway, Wm. Johnson

Leng, Sir John

Caldwell, James

Garfit, William

Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

Carlile William Walter

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Causton, Richard Knight

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Gore, Hn. GRC. Ormsby-(Salop)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

Cavendish, VCW. (Derbyshire)

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

Lough, Thomas

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Lowe, Francis Wm.

Chamberlain, J Austen(Worc'r

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Chapman, Edward

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Lucas, Col. F. (Lowestoft)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Greene, Sir EW (B'ry SEdm'nds

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Macdona, John Cumming

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

Spear, John Ward

M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B. (Camb.

Plummer, Walter R.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

M'Crae, George

Pretyman, Ernest George

Stevenson, Francis S.

M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

Priestley, Arthur

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Majendie, James A. H.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Stock, James Henry

Manners, Lord Cecil

Purvis, Robert

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Massey-Mainwaring. Hn W. F.

Randles, John S.

Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.

Ratcliff, R. F.

Tennant, Harold John

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Rea, Russell

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Thomas, F.Freeman-(Hastings

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Thornton, Percy M.

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. M.

Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants.)

Renwick, George

Valentia, Viscount

Moore, Wm. (Antrim, N.)

Rickett, J. Compton

Warde, Col. C. E.

Morgan, D. J.(Walthamstow)

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Webb, Col. William George

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Morrell, George Herbert

Rigg, Richard

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

Whiteley, H.(Aston-un.-Lyne)

Morrison, James Archibald

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Morton, Edw. J.C.(Devonport)

Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Mount, Wm. Arthur

Robinson, Brooke

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Round, James

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Russell, T. W.

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Rutherford, John

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Nicholson, William Graham

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex.

Wylie, Alexander

Norman, Henry

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Parker, Gilbert

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Partington, Oswald

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsbire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Paulton, James Mellor

Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyn'side

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

Gilhooly, James

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Hammond, John

O'Dowd, John

Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Ambrose, Robert

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Malley, William

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

O'Mara, James

Bell, Richard

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Boland, John

Joyce, Michael

Power, Patrick Joseph

Boyle, James

Leamy, Edmund

Reddy, M.

Brigg, John

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Levy, Maurice

Redmond, William (Clare)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Roe, Sir Thomas

Cawley, Frederick

Lundon, W.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Sullivan, Donal

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Daly, James

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gow'r

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Mooney, John J.

Tully, Jasper

Delany, William

Murnaghan, George

Weir, James Galloway

Dillon, John

Murphy, J.

White, George (Norfolk)

Doogan, P. C.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Duffy, William J.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Farrell, James Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Ffrench, Peter

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Field, William

O'Doherty, William

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

It being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Resolution to be reported this day; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

Adjourned at half-past Twelve of the clock.