laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz—

• Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill [Lords].
• Barrow Haematite Steel Company, Limited, Bill [Lords].
• Great Northern and City Railway Bill [Lords].
• Great Northern and Strand Railway Bill [Lords].
• Hastings Tramways Bill [Lords].
• Mexborough and Swinton Tramways Bill [Lords]
• North-West London Railway Bill [Lords].
• Saddleworth and Springhead Tramways Bill[Lords].

laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.— Commons Regulation (Sodbury) Provisional Order Bill. Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time tomorrow.

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been called to the fact that since 1897 the initial or starting pay of telegraphists has been 12s. a week, and in the case of learners or half-timers 6s. a week until appointment, and that a period of two years has elapsed before the wage of 12s. has been reached; and, seeing that the commencing wage has lately been rised to 8s. a week for half-timers, and 16s. a week on appointment (at various towns like Manchester and Birmingham), will he say what steps will be taken to place both classes on an equal footing. (Answer.) The Postmaster General is aware of the facts mentioned. He has no present intention of extending the special rate of pay which has been temporarily conceded, under quite exceptional circumstances, at certain of the more important post offices.—(Post Office.)

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he will state on what principle the regulations as to private bags are framed; whether the fees realised by the carriage of private bags are paid to the district postmasters as part of their salaries; whether agreements entered into by district postmasters are liable to be reversed by their successors on their retirement or promotion; and whether he will lay before Parliament a copy of the regulations now in force showing any changes which have been made during the last ten years. (Answer.) The principle upon which the regulations referred to are framed is that of assessing the fees to be paid by the owners of private bags according to the weight of their bags. The fees do not form part of the emoluments of postmasters, etc., except at some of the smaller sub-post offices. Postmasters have no authority to enter into agreements with regard to private bags, but are required to conform strictly to the regulations. These regulations are clearly shown on page 31 of the Post Office Guide, and the Postmaster General does not consider it necessary to lay them before Parliament. No change has been made in them during the last ten years.—(Post Office.)

To ask the hon. Member for the Tonbridge Division of Kent, as a Charity Commissioner, if he will state why the scheme published in July, 1896, for the Cornwallis Charity for the parish of Llansadwrn, Carmarthenshire, was not adopted; and, in the event of that scheme being incorrect, why no fresh scheme has been brought forward earlier; and will he say when he expects the promised new scheme to be in the hands of the Parish Council of Llansadwrn, and what time that body will have for its consideration. (Answer.) (1) The scheme to which the Question refers as published in 1896 was a scheme proposed to be made under The Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889. It was not proceeded with, because it was opposed. (2) The Commissioners awaited the result of the inquiry about to be conducted by their Assistant Commissioner in Llansadwrn and Llanwrda, before proposing a fresh scheme. (3) It is not possible to state at present when the new scheme, a draft of which is now being considered by the patron and the trustees, will be published. But there will be no unnecessary delay in the matter. (4) When the scheme is published, the Parish Council of Llansadwrn will receive a copy, and will have not less than a month for its consideration, and for making their observations upon it.—(Charity commission.)

To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can say why the gates of the road or path leading through what is known as the Queen's Garden portion of Kew Gardens have been again closed and relocked: and why the people now enjoying this public place of resort cannot have the full facilities which were granted to them some time ago. (Answer.) The Queen's Cottage grounds were, I find, closed temporarily by order of the Director of Kew Gardens, as the path was impassable after the rain. I have desired him to open them again so soon as the state of the ground permits. The Royal command to allow the public admission to the grounds must, of course, be respected.—(Office of Works.)

To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a British sailor named Fitzgerald was arrested at Huelva, in Spain, in April last, on a charge of assault, and is still kept in gaol without trial; and whether; any steps have been taken, or will be taken, to procure his immediate trial or release. (Answer.) The acting Vice-Consul at Huelva reported on 14th May to His Majesty's Consul at Cadiz that Fitzgerald had been arrested and ceurtmartialled for an assault on a carabineer, but that the sentence had not been made known. The matter was brought to the notice of His Majesty's Ambassador, but he has not yet been able to obtain sufficient particulars about the case to enable him to take action in favour of Fitzgerald. There shall be no delay that can be avoided in dealing with the matter.—(Foreign Office.)

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the digging up and obliteration on the Hill of Tara, in Ireland, of the ancient mounds and ridges which mark the sites of the various erections which existed on that spot in remote ages before the introduction of Christianity into Ireland, and whether he will take such steps as may be in his power to prevent the destruction of these historical monument, which are among the most remarkable and interesting in the British Isles. (Answer.) My attention has been directed to the excavations carried out at Tara. These ancient mounds are amongst the works included in the Schedule to the Ancient Monuments Protection Act of 1882. When similar excavations at Tara were brought under the notice of Government in 1899, there appeared to be an impression that the fact that the mounds were so scheduled vested the guardianship in the Commissioners of Public Works and empowered the Commissioners to interfere with the action of the owner. This is riot so, however; and to create the power there should be a formal deed, executed by the owner, vesting the earthworks in the Commissioners. No such deed has been executed. A Dublin newspaper of this morning states that the owner has entered into an arrangement, under which the excavations will be conducted by the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland. This, of course, will afford a guarantee for the preservation of a national monument of unique interest. It is of the highest importance that the surface of the ground should be in no way disturbed, since its features confirm in every particular the ancient accounts of the Regal buildings which once stood at Tara.—(Irish Office.)

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the refusal of the Registrar General for Ireland of Births to permit the occasional use by officials of the Naas Union, for the purpose of transacting official business, of a room at the workhouse in which the filled registers are deposited, and which the superintendent registrar is entitled to use for the discharge of the duties of his office; whether, having regard to the fact that the use of this room by these officials entails no inconvenience on the superintendent registrar, and that the room will be instantly vacated whenever he requires it, the Chief Secretary will represent to the Registrar General the advisability of allowing the officials to continue to use the room, which has been built out of the rates, seeing that, if they are deprived of its use, it will be necessary to build at the public expense an office for their accommodation. (Answer.) This room was provided by the Guardians as an office for the transaction of the business of the Superintendent Registrar of Births Deaths, and Marriages, and for the preservation of the records of the Registrar, who is responsible for their care and custody. There arc obvious objections to the use of this room, at any time, by officials who are in no way responsible for the custody of the records, and the Registrar General, with every desire to meet the wishes of the guardians, regrets he cannot consent to the appropriation of the room for purposes other than those for which it was provided by statute—(Irish Office.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, at any time since 31st December, 1900, the Colonial Office, or any responsible official thereof, has been approached by the British South Africa Company, or any director thereof, officially or informally, with proposals for or suggestions of a transfer of the undertaking to the British Government; and, in that case, what was the nature of such proposals or suggestions, and what reply was given thereto.

No such proposal has been made to me or to any official in my Department.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if it is proposed to constitute a Court or Commission of Claims for the adjudication of the claims for indemnity in respect of losses sustained by the operations of war by loyal British subjects in and connected with South Africa, similar to that held in the case of foreigners in the Transvaal and Orange colonies.

All claims for losses go before the same Boards in South Africa, whether they emanate from British or foreign subjects. The Court which sat in 1901 in London dealt with the cases of foreigners deported from South Africa who were unable to appear before the Boards sitting in that country.

Is any Board sitting at, the present time in South Africa?

Arrangements arc being made to deal with the cases as rapidly as possible.

:beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of endeavouring to retain in the Army officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Imperial Yeomanry, Volunteer, and irregular forces in South Africa who have proved in the field their qualifications for military service, and of bringing to their knowledge the advantages of Army service under the improved conditions.

As regards the officers, it does not appear probable that sufficient vacancies will arise for the grant of many direct commissions. Yeomanry officers are granted the same privileges as regards service marks in their examinations as officers of the Militia. As regards the men, all facilities will be given them, provided they are qualified to enlist, and their service in other forces in South Africa will be allowed to reckon as Army service.

:beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the special recruit class has been abolished for the Regular Forces; and, if so, whether any minimum standard of height and chest measurement remains.

No recruit has, since 1st April, been accepted unless he fulfilled certain conditions of chest measurement and chest expansion. As regards height, there is a minimum and a maximum standard, which vary according to the arm of the service, but the Adjutant-General has power to approve desirable recruits who do not fulfil the conditions of height. The percentage of Specials last year, which was about thirty-three, has dropped to about twelve since the 1st April.

What is the minimum height and chest measurement?

I cannot say off hand.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the result of the inquiry recently held as to disturbances at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, will be made public; whether, since that inquiry took place, another incendiary fire has taken place in the College; and what further measures are being taken by the authorities to punish the guilty and to relieve innocent persons of being suspected of crime.

It is not proposed to make public the inquiry held as to the recent disturbance at the Royal Military College. Another fire has taken place, and steps are being taken to deal with those concerned.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the question of fortifying the two headlands, known as the Sutors, at the entrance to Cromarty Firth, has yet been considered by the Defence Committee; and, if not, will steps be taken to procure a Report on the subject.

No such proposal has been considered by a Defence Committee, nor does there appear to be any necessity for referring it to a Defence Committee.

I beg to ask the, Secretary of State for War whether any provision will be made to enable Members to see the two reviews.

Perhaps this will be a convenient opportunity for me to ask a Question of which I have given private notice, viz., if, to afford the people an opportunity of seeing and welcoming the Colonial and Indian troops, they cannot be invited (after the Review on the limited space of the Horse Guards' Parade, by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales) to march round Hyde Park, or some other route comparatively clear of business traffic, and under carriage regulations, enabling people on foot to see something.

The route as at present adopted is by Grosvenor Gardens, Grosvenor Place, Constitution Hill, and the Mall. It is hoped that ample opportunity will thus bo given to those who desire to see the troops.

Both days?

Yes; the whole of the arrangements have been made in the course of a few hours, and it will be quite impossible to bring troops up to London to line the enormous extent of route which my hon. and gallant friend proposes. The police would not undertake to control so long a route without an adequate supply of soldiers to keep the road. With regard to this House, so far as I am aware, the distribution of tickets has been placed in the hands of the Colonial Office, in order to satisfy as many Colonial visitors as possible. The accommodation is limited, and that which would be required by Members of this House, if a large number desired to go, would make it prohibitive to assign special places to all.

Will any arrangements be made to enable Members to see this desirable and interesting function?

I am informed that 200 tickets will be placed at the disposal of Mr. Speaker's Secretary.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that Egypt is under British control, will he state why the English language is not used in the international tribunals.

The international tribunals were constituted by an Agreement to which fourteen Powers were parties, and no change can be made in the arrangements under that Agreement without the consent of all the signatory Powers, some of which would have to obtain the assent of their legislatures. In practice, however, it is understood that little inconvenience is caused by the fact that English is not one of the languages officially sanctioned, arid that translations of English documents are rarely required.

When was the agreement published?

:I am afraid I cannot answer that off-hand.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire whether he has any official information that a telegram has been received from Hong Kong to the effect that a French flagship and two French gunboats arrived at Macao on the 25th ultimo, and will he now state the result of his inquiry in regard to the report that the French Government have recently acquired territory near Macao.

We have notheard of the arrival of any French men of-war at Macao. According to our information, a piece of ground near Macao has been purchased by French missionaries for the erection of a hospital.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state when the successor to Lord Hopetoun as Governor General of Australia will be appointed.

No, Sir.

Will care be taken to ensure that the new Governor General is granted an allowance adequate to enable him to fulfil the duties of the office?

Order, order! That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

I will put it down for tomorrow.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the, Colonies whether he J8 aware that the strike of dock workers at Gibraltar is extending to other trades, and that acts of violence have already been committed; and whether he will telegraph to the Governor instructing him to adopt stringent measures to maintain order, and to issue a proclamation warning the strikers and others against using intimidation or violence.

I am aware of the facts stated in the Question, but the Governor, Sir George White, is fully alive to the importance of maintaining order, and I believe the steps he is taking will be found adequate.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state when the Report of the Joint Committee on the London Water Bill will be distributed to Members; and whether a reasonable interval will be allowed between the distribution of the Report and the consideration of the Bill in Committee of the House.

The Report of the Joint Committee is issued, and copies can now be obtained at the Vote Office. It will, of course, be circulated in the usual way. The Bill will not be taken before Wednesday, andthink this will allow a sufficient time for the consideration of the Report. Subsequently,

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether there is a serious intention to take the London Water Bill on Wednesday, or whether a considerable interval should not be allowed for studying the Report, which has not been distributed.

:am not aware of any suggestion to take the Bill on Wednesday.

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, what building Rules are now in force in the case of elementary schools, as the seventh section of the Code (1901) has been omitted from the new Code; and what the Government intend to adopt as regards building Rules for such schools in future years.

The existing building Rules, contained in the seventh section of the Code, 1901, remain in force till superseded by new ones. New Rules will be issued shortly.

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education when the particulars and syllabuses referred to in the Regulations for Secondary Day Schools, 1902, will be printed and circulated; and whether evening schools will be dealt with in the same supplementary regulations.

The supplementary regulations, which are both for secondary day schools and evening schools, are now in the hands of the printers. They will be circulated in about ten days.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to say when the Land Commissioners will sit at Dungannon to hear appeals which have been accruing for nearly four years in the county court district of that town.

No date has yet been fixed for the next sitting of the Commissioners. It is probable, however, that one will be held before the end of the year.

Will it be held at Dungannon?

I infer so.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many extra police are quartered in East Tyrone; where they are stationed; the reason for keeping them there; and the respective number in each locality.

There is no extra force of police stationed in the County Tyrone.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that John Lavin of Ballinaford, near Boyle, aged seventy-three, at present confined in Sligo gaol, was arrested in bed whilst suffering from influenza contracted through exposure after eviction; and whether, in view of the fact that this man has been fifteen months in prison, Steps will be taken to have him released.

This man was committed to prison for contempt of court on a writ of attachment issued by the Vice-Chancellor. The power of committal in such cases is not subject to supervision by the Executive and is not controlled by the exercise of the prerogative of pardon. The steps necessary to be taken with a view to the discharge of the prisoner were indicated in a communication whichaddressed to the hon. Member in February last.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of privy councillors, land commissioners, land sub-commissioners, county court valuers, judges of the superior courts, county court judges, resident magistrates, county inspectors of police, and district inspectors holding office in Ireland; and how many of each class are Presbyterians.

There are sixty seven resident magistrates, of whom five are Presbyterians; thirty-three county inspectors, none of whom are Presbyterians; and 214 district inspectors, of whom eight profess that religion. I have already more than once stated that I have no official knowledge of the religious denominations applicable to persons occupying the other positions mentioned.

:beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many days in the week are at present given by Land Commissioner Garvey to the work for which he was appointed, in what district he is at present employed, and what his previous occupation was.

Mr. Garvey, like all other assistant Land Commissioners, gives his entire time to the service of the Irish Land Commission. He is at present employed in the district of Cookstown. His qualifications will be found described in a Paper recently laid on the Table. [No. 151 of the present Session.]

Is not this man the son of a well-known land agent in Ireland?

How many days in the week does he give to his work?

His entire time.

He resides at a seaside resort, to which he goes every Friday, remaining until Tuesday.

Order, order!

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolution passed by the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, at Maynooth, on the 25th inst; on the subject of the Land Bill, declaring that the grazing lands of the country should be made available on fair terms for the agricultural population that is now forced to emigrate. And, whether, in view of this pronouncement, the Government will introduce such provisions in the Land Bill as may tend to carry out these views.

Yes, Sir. I have seen a Report of the Resolution. In reply to the second paragraph, I would direct the hon. Member's attention to Clause 3, Clause 4 (1) (b) and (c) ii, iii, Clause 6 (1), Clause 11 (1), and specially to the first-mentioned Clause. They set up £1,000,000 as a rolling fund, outside the congested districts for most of the purposes advocated by this important assembly. I doubt whether it would be advisable for the State to undertake similar work for those in comparatively easy circumstances until further progress has been made in the problem of remedying the defects of uneconomic holdings.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at French Park on the 25th inst., when the hon. Member for North Longford was tried before two resident magistrates on a charge of inciting to conspiracy; is he aware that the magistrates, in dismissing the prosecution, commented on the inaccuracies of the shorthand notes of Constable McDonagh; and, will he state how many persons have been convicted on evidence furnished by police note-takers since the reintroduction of the Criminal Law and Procedure Act into Ireland.

I believe that on cross-examination some inaccuracies were detected in the shorthand writer's notes. In all the other cases where police note-takers were examined, they were either cross-examined or were presented for cross-examination. In these cases no inaccuracies were, I believe, detected in the notes, and in few if any cases was evidence given to contradict them. I am unable to state in which cases the evidence of the shorthand writers was the only incriminatory evidence given.

Are any precautions taken to ensure the competence of the men employed on duties of this kind?

Yes, Sir.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that flags draped in mourning, and suspended from the Mechanics' Institute, Limerick, as a mark of respect for the memory of a deceased member of the Institute, were, on Wednesday, 25th June, seized by the police and carried off to their barracks at William Street; can he state upon whose authority the police acted, and for what reasons were these flags taken from the windows of the Institute; will he state whether they were returned, and, if so, for what reasons and whether, having regard to the condition of the city of Limerick, he will take steps to prevent a repetition of such action.

The two black flags were removed by the police early on the morning of Thursday the 26th June under a misapprehension, which is much regretted, of the object with which they had been displayed. The police at once returned the flags when informed they were emblems of mourning.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent a repetition of such conduct on the part of the police?

I do not think any are necessary. Their action in this case is deeply regretted.

The flags were draped and not black.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the supervisor, Inland Revenue, Tralee, and his assistant took rent receipts from David Sheehan and Denis Murphy, both tenants of William Cahill, the Crown witness in the recent prosecutions under the Criminal Law Procedure (Ireland) Act at Abbeyfeale; and, seeing that these receipts were taken up with a view to prosecuting Mr. Cahill for defrauding the Revenue by using cancelled postage stamps on these receipts, can he explain why such prosecution was not proceeded with, and why Sheehan and Murphy's son were the only two persons on Cahill's estate who were subsequently prosecuted for alleged illegal assembly and intimidation of Mr. Cahill at Mount Collins.

The Board of Inland Revenue stayed the proceedings instituted by it against Cahill upon payment by him of a penalty of £5. That Board had no knowledge of the prosecution directed against Sheehan and Murphy under the Crimes Act; consequently, the Board's action was in no way influenced by the latter proceedings. Sheehan and Murphy were the only two tenants who took part in the unlawful assembly; hence no other tenants from that estate were or could be prosecuted for the offence.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he can say when the result of the inquiry now being held at Limerick Post Office will be made known; and whether the postmistress at Rutland Street branch office, Limerick, has yet got a residence in the locality.

The Postmaster General expects to receive the Report in the course of a few days. The sub-postmistress of the Rutland Street Office, Limerick, has secured suitable premises and will probably be installed today.

Mayask whether, for the convenience of Members following the Education Bill, the First Lord of the Treasury will have it printed each day as amended in Committee.

No doubt it is convenient, and in accordance with practice, that from time to time the Bill should be reprinted as amended in Committee. But to do so each day would, I think, be rather going beyond the practice. I will take care, however, to see that the Bill is reprinted at convenient intervals.

What is wanted is that the first and second Clauses should be reprinted as far as amended at the head of the Amendment Paper.

That would be easy, and it might be convenient; but, as we slowly make progress with the measure, a good deal would have to be reprinted, andwould rather not lay that down as a principle.

Is it understood that both sittings tomorrow and on Wednesday are to be devoted to the Education Bill?

That is my intention at present; but if it is necessary to make a change, I hope the House will permit me, with, of course, full notice, to adopt the evening sitting for some other purpose.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, with a view to providing for the identification of motor cars contravening the law, or causing damage or accidents, he will give facilities for the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for the New Forest Division of Hampshire.

Though the subject of the Bill is one of considerable interest, it is quite impossible at present, and at this stage of the session, that I should find Government time for it.

I have to ask as to the business for this week, and what Estimates will be taken on Thursday.

Mayask whether Irish Supply will be taken, or whether ft will lie held over until the autumn session.

With regard to the Question last put to me, I have been making such inquiries as are within my power, and I find that next Thursday will be an inconvenient day for the majority of Irish Members to attend. The Irish Estimates will, therefore, be deferred. It will be convenient to take the Foreign Office Vote at the morning sitting, and the Board of Trade Vote at the nine o'clock sitting. The rest of the week will be given to the Education Bill. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman opposite will allow me to leave Friday a little undecided at present.

in the Chair. Clause 2—

Will it lie in order to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Stretford Division of Lancashire in his absence?

Yes.

said he would do so. The Amendment proposed that the local education authority might supply or aid education, other than elementary, with the funds placed at their disposal—

"Provided that no amount shall he charged on the rate, unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury,"

"In page 1, line 23, after the word 'that,' to insert the words 'no amount shall be charged on the rates unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, and that.'"—(Mr. Carrie Grant.)

said that the Amendment was a very ingenious one. It was intended to pledge the Government to give an aid grant in respect of secondary education. That was contrary to the manner in which the assistance given by the Imperial Exchequer to education was usually dispensed. In the case of elementary schools no grant was given in aid of rates except under the Act of 1897 for the relief of poor School Board districts. If that Act was repealed no grant would be given from the Imperial Exchequer in aid of elementary education; and no grant had been given in respect of secondary education. He was aware that the case of Wales was different, but it should be remembered that very large assistance was given to secondary education on the same principle and in the same manner as assistance was given to elementary and technical education—namely, by grants to schools out of the Exchequer in proportion to the scholars they teach and the subjects taught. Complaint was made in some quarters that the grants already made for education were too large. Speaking op behalf of the Board of Education he must say that the aid granted already for secondary education did not err on the side of illiberality; they were very liberal, but then a good deal of useful education was promoted. Still, if anything, the administration of the fund was too lax rather than too severe. On the grounds that the Amendment established an entirely new principle in the case of England, and that the aid already-given to secondary education was sufficient, the Government asked the Committee to reject the Amendment.

said he did not like the exact form of the Amendment, because it simply provided that some sum might be contributed by the Imperial Exchequer for the purposes of elementary education. If the words were left thus, it was obvious that the grant of a small and insignificant amount—say of £100—might be said to satisfy the conditions laid down by the Amendment. Again there was no limit as to the amount which the Treasury might insist on being expended out of local funds before making a grant from Imperial sources. He thought it would be better, therefore, to amend the Amendment by leaving out the word "a" after "unless," and substituting for it the words "an equal." It would then read "no amount shall be charged on the rates unless an equal sum has been contributed, etc." He thought that would be a fair solution of the question. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the Welsh precedent as something entirely exceptional. So it at present, but inasmuch as the Welsh precedent had been entirely successful, and had resulted in the creation of a system of secondary or intermediate education equal to that which existed in any other part of the United Kingdom, and equal also to that which existed in France and Germany, surely it ought not to be urged as an argument against the Amendment. He did not wish to lengthen the debate by going into the general question. They all appeared to be agreed that the object should be to create a system of higher education in England such as that which existed in Wales, and to a certain extent in Scotland. That would not be attained unless the principle of his Amendment was accepted, or unless they were going to sweep all existing endowments for secondary education purposes into the net of the Education Department. Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment,

"To leave out the word 'a,' and insert the words 'an equal.'"—(Mr. Brynmor Jones.)

said he had intended to move a somewhat similar Amendment. But he rose mainly to protest against the statement of the Vice President of the Council with regard to Welsh Technical Education.

Order, order! The debate must be confined to the Amendment.

With the permission of the House, I will accept the Amendment.

said that before it was accepted he would like to point out that the principle of equal grant was going a great deal further than the Welsh Act. It would not only embrace the intermediate schools and similar institutions but also, the evening schools, which were, already largely subsidised by the Exchequer, to almost three-quarters of the then cost.

Then that is more than equivalent.

added that it would also apply to higher grade schools and training colleges, and would involve an enormous drain on the Treasury. The effect of it would be to cripple the new authority, for they could not levy any rate for the purposes of secondary education until they were met by an equivalent sum which might or might not be provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in years to come. It was suggested that local authorities would not be anxious to levy new rates, but what greater encouragement could there be for them to abstain from doing so than the excuse that no Treasury contribution was forthcoming.

said he was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had not allowed them to amend the Amendment as proposed, because then they could have discussed the complete Amendment. Would he agree, for the mere purposes of debate, to the insertion of the words.

:do not object to that at all. Question put, and agreed to. Question proposed, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."

said he desired to protest against the suggestion involved in the Vice President's statement that the unfortunate agricultural ratepayer in England should be deprived of assistance which was given to his fellow ratepayer in Wales. He never heard a more extraordinary assertion made by any Minister of the Crown than that the Government were willing to place the unfortunate agricultural ratepayer at a disadvantage in regard to technical education as compared with his fellow ratepayer in Wales. It was suggested that it would be a serious matter to call upon the Exchequer to give the English ratepayer a grant equivalent to that received by the Welsh, but was it not also a serious matter for the ratepayers themselves. He believed that if the point were conceded, it would be an inducement to local authorities to rate themselves for secondary education, for they would appreciate the fact that for every penny of their own money they spent they would get an equal sum from the Exchequer.

sad the Amendment raised a serious question—namely, the competition of the private adventure schools. By the scheme of the Amendment, schools would be started, many of which would be in competition with existing efficient secondary schools. That meant that sooner or later those schools would be done away with, and it also meant an enormously increased expense, which was not wanted in anyway, for secondary education. There would be every inducement for local authorities to rate themselves in order to get the Imperial Grant, and the ultimate result would be that a great number of highly efficient, well-conducted secondary schools now carried on by private enterprise, would practically be killed, and the whole cost of education would be thrown on the public purse. To that he strongly objected.

said he did not think the right lion. Gentleman had been well advised, in the interests of education, in resisting this Amendment. There were many places in England where schools would be required for secondary education, which would exhaust the whole of the 2d. rate permitted by the Bill as it now stood, and those places might have many other educational projects for which they might desire to rate themselves. Naturally they would enter into those projects with greater heartiness if they were assured of a contribution from the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman should remember that in England at the present time secondary education had actually been starved, and if he threw upon the ratepayers the levying of the rate allowed by this Bill up to the hilt, they would give pause before they embarked upon such a project. This Amendment would encourage them, for if the Government would contribute a sum equal to a rate levied locally they would then be found willing to throw into the development of education an amount of zeal which would have a great effect upon the country.

said he felt that this was an important Amendment, and he was bound to say that he warmly supported it. The broad principle of the Amendment was embodied in the recommendations of the Royal Commission. He quite understood that the First Lord of the Treasury, on the Second Reading of the Bill, agreed to the principle, but said that the occasion had not arisen, because the whole question of local taxation had to be reviewed. The end of the South African war was the proper time to do this. Our industries, and the manhood and womanhood of this country, were suffering from this lack of education, and this country was becoming more or less a by-word, not only among the great nations of the world, but also in our Colonies. As a rule we dealt with matters when they became urgent. In a matter of this kind England could not afford to continue living on her reputation. Our industries had been supported by cheap labour, and by taking women into industries they had been robbing the nursery of the services of these women. Efficiency could not be established without ', secondary education, and therefore he felt that this was a question of national importance, and worthy of national recognition by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer could spare a sum equal to one week's cost of the war in South Africa, which would be an excellent investment, for there would be no scandals connected with it.

, as the representative of a rural district, said that what agricultural Members wanted to do to-day was to save the Government from themselves. The Government posed as friends of the agricultural interest because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had reduced the duty on offals. He wished to know what was the use of putting half-a-crown in a man's pocket with one hand and taking five shillings out with the other. Upon this question the drum ecclesiastic had already been beaten somewhat vigorously in the division he represented, and if t-he Bill fell through ho anticipated that ho should have a bad half-hour with his clerical friends. They wished the Government to treat them with fairness and justice, and not put upon them heavier burdens.

said that this concession financially did not amount to much. This proposal would give to secondary education a really large increase of money for the national exchequer. The changes hitherto made by this Clause had practically resulted in no serious increase to the resources of the local authorities. At first sight it looked as if the proposal would result in a limitation of the rate, but they were compelled to look at it from a different point of view and consider that almost any Government would be forced to accept the local standard of the necessity for secondary education. Therefore this was a compulsory equivalent grant, and it would so work out in a very short time. This was one of the biggest questions they could discuss, and ho could not help feeling that, to some extent, the House had lost sight of the bigness of the question which it was discussing at take present time. He represented a great northern industrial district. Some time ago the Duke of Devonshire was speaking about this Bill in the autumn, and he said that what he wanted was to got the popular wind into the sails of the Government in order to drive the education ship forward. The Government had not tried to get the education wind into their sails. The real feeling was not on the question of elementary education, but the crying need all over the great commercial districts was for secondary and commercial education. If the Government would really appeal, not to the ultra-economists, as they were now appealing, but to that part of the population which felt intensely the necessity for secondary and commercial education, he was sure they would get that wind into their sails which the Duke of Devonshire had asked for. He thought some of them were justified in going back to the fundamental reasons as to why we wanted more money spent upon secondary education, and as to why this Bill was brought in at all. It had been brought in because of the danger which was threatening the industrial supremacy of this country. It did not matter what part of education was looked at, the extent of the backwardness of this country could be shown in various directions. He would like to read some statistics just to remind the Committee of the position we were in as compared with other countries.

The hon. Member will be rather trespassing on the indulgence of the Committee if he enters upon that comparison. This Amendment raises a very limited subject, and the hon. Member cannot raise the whole question of secondary education upon it.

said it seemed to him that the Committee had rather lost sight of the larger side of the question. They were not satisfied with simply getting an extra £10,000 or £20,000 out of the Government by the compulsory application of the whisky money to secondary education, for they were looking forward to something enormously bigger than that. He thought he was right in saying that in nearly all the States of America, or at any rate in thirty of them, they had got their resources for all kinds of education provided, and about one sixteenth of the revenue of the land of the different States was set apart for educational purposes. They know the extent to which Germany was ready to give, from, national and also local resources, to secondary as well as primary education. What he wished to enforce was that they wanted a big way of dealing with this question, and the only big way of dealing with it was to give to localities practically unlimited powers of enterprise, and to back up that enterprise by encouraging them from national resources.

said he agreed with the Chairman that the question they were discussing was an extremely limited one, but still it involved the very important principle whether an object which was admittedly a national object ought to be paid for entirely out of the rates or whether the State should contribute a portion of the expenditure. Ho was greatly surprised at the opposition of the Government to this demand. It appeared to him reasonable and proper in itself, and he had not yet heard from the Government a reason for the distinction they drew between secondary schools on the one hand, and elementary schools on the other. Why was that distinction made in the Bill? Secondary education was admittedly for a national object, and therefore primâ facie it ought to be met, partially at all events, out of national funds. He had never yet heard the reason why the Government with held in the case of secondary schools the concession which they had made in the case of elementary schools, viz:—assistance from national funds. Under the Bill secondary schools were to be paid for entirely out of the rates. It might have been said that originally Clause 2 was entirely voluntary with regard to the provision of secondary education, but that could not be maintained any longer. He defied anybody to argue, and still loss to prove, that the provisions for secondary education in the Bill at the present moment were not practically compulsory, but whether any hon. Member might differ from him on that point or not, it was absolutely certain that the whisky money under that Clause could not be used for anything else. He wished to hear what was the ground upon which the Government refused to accept the extremely reasonable Amendment now before the Committee, and what were the grounds on which they made, what appeared to him, the most arbitrary distinction between the two kinds of education. He had not the least desire to sec the Bill wrecked. There was nothing ho should regret more than that. If his right hon. friend would listen to the appeals made from both sides of the House, and provide in this Bill, in the case of secondary education, as, it had done already in the case of elementary education, a fair contribution from national funds, he believed as far as this House was concerned at all events, all, or the greater part, of the difficulties would disappear. His right hon. friend would enormously facilitate the passing of the Bill if ho would make the just concession now asked.

This has been a very interesting debate, and a good many noteworthy points have been developed in the course of it. My right hon. friend who has just sat down, and my hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Chelmsford Division implored the Government to accept the Amendment be—cause it would relieve the local ratepayer. The hon. Member for the Elland Division implored the Government to accept the Amendment because it would greatly increase the amount spent on secondary education. Well, both of these arguments cannot be true would venture to point out to the House that we really arc not arguing the Amendment on the Paper at all, but some ideal Amendment which hon. Members would like to see substituted for it. The hon. Member for the Elland Division, and my right hon. friend the Member f or the Sleaford Division, regard the Amendment as a means of exacting money from the Treasury, and if it is so, the Amendment would be out of order, as it would be little bettor than a device to evade one of the best known and best understood of the Standing Orders of the House, and in the upholding of that Order should say that all economists would be glad to support the Government, It has been argued that this Amendment makes it mandatory on the Treasury to spend money on secondary education, and a comparison is drawn between this Amendment and a provision in the Welsh Education Act. They are entirely different, and not only different, but entirely opposed. The provision of the Welsh Education Act says to the locality: "You spend money up to a halfpenny, and the Government will also spend money up to a halfpenny." That is no doubt a very good way of promoting local expenditure on education—local enterprise for the promotion of secondary schools. But what is this Amendment? It says that the localities shall not spend anything out of the rates until the Government have contributed something. This is actually brought before the House by a gentleman who speaks in the name of education as if it were a great educational Amendment. It does everything that an Amendment ought not to do. It puts it absolutely in the power of the Government of the day to stop everything being done by any locality in education, and it centralises the whole system of education. If you put the whole responsibility, on the central Government of starting their contributions, they, of course, will take care that education is controlled in all respects, according to their views and wishes. That is precisely a situation I do not wish to see adopted; and as an educationist, I say, with all the conviction of which I am master, that nothing can be worse, in the present indeterminate condition of the problem of secondary education, than to throw the whole determination of that problem into the hands of the central authority. I do earnestly trust that the House will not accept the Amendment, which, if accepted in this form, would be ruinous to education. May I remind the House that when I am pressed to ask my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a still further contribution in regard to this Bill, he has already made very large and liberal contributions to these various authorities for educational purposes, andlet me add simply, in conclusion, that to say that nothing is given from central State sources to secondary education is a complete and thorough illusion. The whole of the whisky money is a contribution from central sources, and in addition there are science and art grants to secondary schools at the present moment to the amount, I think, of half-a-million of money a year.

said he looked upon this Amendment with a certain amount of suspicion. It paid that—

"No amount shall be charged on the rates unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury."

said this was rather an awkward Amendment. Undoubtedly the effect of it, if carried, would be exactly what they wanted it to be. It would force the Government to face the question of the equivalent grant. The First Lord of the Treasury could cure the situation now if he would do what he had been asked to do, and that was, take a money resolution with respect to which hon. Members could move readjustments without transgressing the rules of order. Non - official Members wanted to raise the question of the equivalent grant, and the only way they could do it was by forcing the Government to face it. It was really not such a serious matter as the Vice-President of the Council seemed to assume. The right hon. Gentleman said they must remember that all the schools affected by the Cockcrton judgment had been thrown on the rates under this Clause, and then he proceeded to answer his own argument by saying that three - fourths of that expenditure fell now on the Treasury. As a matter of fact it was more than three-fourths, and so far from the present proposal imposing an additional burden on the Imperial Exchequer it would give it relief. The Cockerton judgment was all in favour of the equivalent grant, and not against it. The question was, were they really going to get a good system of secondary education built up in this country unless the Treasury was prepared to do its duty by those schools? The question of rating was at the root of the whole matter. The rates in towns were running up to 7s., 8s. and 10s. per £1. They could not expect a place that was rated 7s. in the £1 to raise a rate for secondary education. The only way to induce them to do it was by getting this contribution from the Treasury. When a church or a chapel wanted to raise money, invariably one man came forward and said he would give £5000, or whatever the sum might be, if the rest of the members would raise an equal sum. It was the theological precedent they wanted; the Treasury ought to say "if you give a penny, we will give a penny," and then education would prosper. They ought to appeal to all the weaknesses of human nature, and enlist them in favour of education. The secondary schools which would be organised under this Clause would appeal to a totally different class from that to which they ought to appeal. It was the class now educated in the venture schools. What was wanted was a system of schools in which they should get pupils whose parents could not afford to send their children to venture schools. What was happening in Wales? They had eighty secondary schools, which was proportionally better, according to population, than in Germany. Take Baden, which had about the same population as Wales There were only sixty-eight secondary schools. This was largely done with the equivalent grant and the whisky money, and in those schools five out of every seven pupils came from the primary schools. There was nothing of that kind in England. If the same success obtained in England in regard to secondary education as in Wales there would be 120,000 pupils in the public schools, nearly 100,000 of whom would have come from the primary schools. How much would that do for a country like this, which was in the throes of a great commercial crisis? He fully admitted that they were taking the only course open to them to force the Government to give an equivalent grant for secondary education. The rating system was at the root of the whole difficulty. If a part of the burden were transferred to the Imperial Exchequer something might be done for secondary education in England. An hon. Member had advocated the principle of a per capita grant, but that was not the system in Wales. What was wanted was a system which would not merely stimulate secondary education in the towns, which could take care of themselves, but which would stimulate it in the rural districts; and if this Bill passed in its present form that would not be secured. The farmers in England were struggling very hard to make both ends meet, and they would not put 2d. or 3d. on to the rates to educate—not their sons, but the sons of artisans and their labourers. If we only stimulated secondary education in the rural districts we should beat Germany, because higher education was very backward in the rural districts of Prussia. Secondary education in the rural districts would do more to solve the problem of agricultural distress than anything else. A per capita grant was not sufficient for the rural districts. The way to help the rural districts was not to make a grant in respect of every child who attended the classes, but to make a grant in proportion to the sacrifice the parents were prepared to make. There were young ladies' schools which went to the County Council and asked for a grant of £40 or £50, but the instruction they gave to their pupils was not secondary education. In Merionethshire there was a greater proportion of children receiving secondary education, according to population, than in Prussia, and, with the exception of one mining district they were all in the rural districts. He besought the Government to transform this Bill, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make an equivalent grant, so as to induce the people of England to build up a fine system of secondary education.

said he entirely agreed with the last speaker. This was not so much an educational as a rating question. In his judgment the effect of this Bill in creating the County Councils, and the County Borough Councils, the educational authority would be to starve elementary education; and he was also convinced that if this Clause was carried in its present form it would inevitably starve secondary education. He had been a Member for fifteen years of an educational committee of a County Council, and he was quite convinced that a twopenny rate was quite inadequate, He had heard Members of the County Council ask, time after time, when precepts were presented, whether they had not the power to refuse to pay them. Rates in his district had gone up from 4s. 4d. to 7s. in the £1, and a similar increase had taken place under all local authorities, and how could they expect Borough Councils and County Councils to superimpose an their ordinary burdens, which were already heavy enough, more than 2d. for secondary education? He quite agreed with what had fallen from the Leader of the House, that if this Amendment were carried it would, in some measure, arrest the progress of secondary education. At the same time, would it not be possible for the Government to give a contribution from the Imperial Treasury towards secondary education, which was an absolute necessity in face of what was being done in this direction in other countries?

said that it was admitted that this Amendment raised the question under the consideration of the Committee in a somewhat inconvenient form. Of course his hon. friend was bound to take an early opportunity of urging the duty of the National Treasury to make a contribution towards secondary education. A large contribution had already been promised, which was to be devoted exclusively to elementary education. The case of Wales, so ably put by the hon. Member for Carnarvon, emphasised what was true, that if they wished to induce the local authorities to assist secondary education there was no better way of doing it than by giving them a grant from the Imperial Treasury. Although the State already made a considerable contribution towards technical instruction in the form of the liquor money, yet, considering the amount of funds available for elementary schools, the Government could not deny that very strong arguments had been put forward in behalf of a larger contribution from the Central Treasury for secondary education. He doubted, however, whether his hon. friend would gain anything by pressing his Amendment to a division.

said that he would support the Amendment. He thought the Government would expedite the debate if they would accept the course recommended by educationists on both sides of the House. He had been strongly impressed by the argument of the hon. Member for North Islington as to the difficulty about the competition between State and private schools. He, however, believed that the County Councils would recognise the service which had been done by the better class of private secondary schools. For these reasons he hoped the Government would assent to the Amendment.

said the position was that under the Bill as it stood every farthing as regarded the additional expenditure rendered necessary for secondary or technical education must come from the rates, and the same applied also to the branches transferred from the primary to the secondary bodies under the Bill. The proposition in this Clause was one which could not be justified in principle. He would not go back to the fact that it was contrary to the report of the Royal Commission. What he wished to point out was that there was that neutrality to the disadvantage of the ratepayers as matters stood, and this Clause would increase that inequality. Of course he was assuming that this Clause would not be a dead letter. Take as an illustration the case of the undenominational teachers' college. How could that be said to be a local service of which the local ratepayers ought to bear the burden? If they wanted undenominational colleges they must provide the funds from some other source, and they could not expect the rates to bear the whole of the burden. The result of all this would be that they would not get these teachers' colleges at all. His object as regarded this Amendment was not to discourage education, either secondary or technical, but to encourage it. Under the Bill, as it stood, without some provision that the Imperial Exchequer would provide such a national service, this proposition would be a dead letter as regarded this Clause, for they would not have improved technical or enforced secondary education, and they would not have these teachers' colleges, He supported this Amendment, not on the ground that he objected to the rates being used at all, but he objected to there not being a proper contribution from the Imperial funds, and to secure that he thought the rates ought to be used to a limited extent. That was the view of the Royal Commission. When they were dealing with a national service, a proper account for the national expenditure should be provided by the National Exchequer, and that was a proper principle to adopt. He would not refer to the Welsh Intermediate Act, but that was a precedent. Everybody admitted that the Welsh system worked admirably and economically, both financially and educationally. By this Amendment they offered an inducement for aiming at a higher level of educational efficiency, for they gave a grant just in proportion to the local effort made. It was a perfectly proper principle to adopt in order to bring about an educational reform, which they all desired, because they could not expect people to pay for a national service out of local funds.

said that this was the greatest question which could be raised in connection with this Clause, because it was a matter of ensuring the organisation of secondary education in England upon a proper basis. If the Committee missed this opportunity of dealing with the question, a grave national mistake would be made. Why did the Welsh Committees one by one adopt the Welsh Intermediate Education Act? Simply because of the stimulus of a Treasury grant. Without this stimulus, in some of the poorer counties of Wales they would not have had a system of intermediate education today. Welsh Members

said that if he thought the Amendment would effectively carry out what they desired he would divide the Committee upon it, but it was obvious that the Amendment would not effectively do this and with the permission of the Committee he would withdraw it. [Cries of "No, no."]

said the Amendment which he proposed to move was to leave out the word "authority" in order to insert "council of a county." The object of the Amendment was to remove the limit of rating for secondary education in County Boroughs, but would not enlarge upon this Amendment, for the reason that the hon. Baronet the Member for North-West Manchester, a master of the subject, would set forth all the reasons for it. Amendment proposed—

"In page I, line 23, to leave out the word 'authority,' and insert the words council of a county."—(Mr. James Hope.)

said it would be noticed that this was not an Amendment like the last, which asked for contributions from the Imperial Exchequer; it simply asked that county boroughs should have the right to rate themselves for the purposes of secondary education. Whatever arguments he could advance in justification of a limit being placed on other authorities, he Could not think that those arguments would apply to such localities as county boroughs. The work of secondary education in county boroughs must necessarily assume very much larger proportions than it did in other localities, which would have large areas and large populations to deal with, and which he would hope in some way or another would have sufficient funds for their work. It was I evident that the county boroughs had a duty placed upon them by this Bill which they would have a great difficulty in fulfilling if they were kept within anything like the limits of the Bill. The county boroughs had unlimited power to rate for several purposes, and he did not know that that power had ever been abused. Whatever view might be taken of the action of the School Boards, he did not think there was any danger whatever of the county boroughs running riot on the question of education. He thought perfect freedom should be given to the county boroughs in this matter of secondary education; they had shown very great enthusiasm, and many of them had expended large sums of money on technical schools, and in everything that was practically secondary education. The consequence was they were in the position that they had already gone to the utmost extent in their power of rating at the present moment, and therefore any additional duties that would be placed upon them by the transfer of the higher grade schools and evening continuation schools, would place them in the difficult position that they could not carry out those duties without greater rating powers than they would have under the Bill. This Amendment proposed to give them perfect freedom in the matter. The Committee would be able to distinguish between the authorities of large county boroughs and some of the others referred to in the Bill. The figures with regard to Manchester were very startling. If he interpreted the Bill aright, the proper discharge of the additional duties under the Bill would mean, even with the 2d. rate, a deficiency of £17,000 or £20,000 a year. Assuming that the 1d. rate for technical education was to be merged in the 2d. rate, the Council of Manchester, to carry out their work efficiently, would certainly require a 4d. or 5d., or even a 6d. rate. They had been much to the front in regard to technical education, and it would be a thousand pities if anything was done which deterred them in the work. They had the ratepayers behind them, and there was no danger of their doing anything foolish or imprudent. The object of the Amendment was to leave the county boroughs perfectly free to levy any rate that might be necessary for the proper discharge of their duties, the County Councils remaining under any limit the Committee might think proper to impose. It might be said that the Amendment should go further. That, however, was a matter for subsequent consideration, but certainly a distinction could be drawn in the case of county boroughs.

said the proposal in the Bill might be taken, as a whole, to meet the case of the larger boroughs. By it the Government recognised a difference on the part of some of the larger and more self-contained authorities, which were better able to realise their own requirements, and more frequently to bring them before their own constituents, than was the case in the country districts. At the same time the Government recognised that a very general claim had been made by the representatives of the larger boroughs for greater freedom, and also that those boroughs had done very excellent work, and, on the whole, could be thoroughly trusted to exercise a wise discretion as to the amount of rate they should levy for secondary education. The Government, in accepting the Amendment, however, did so with the clear understanding that there was a definite distinction between the position of county boroughs and other urban districts in the scheme of the Bill. The county boroughs were created the authorities for education—they stood by themselves, and the Government offered no objection to this extension of their powers, but to carry the Amendment further would enormously complicate the whole scheme. There was another reason for dealing with the county boroughs somewhat differently. By the present Bill the Technical Instruction Acts would be repealed, and the power to levy the 1d. rate for technical instruction would disappear. The rate which the local authorities were able to raise under those Acts would be raised to the 2d. rate under this Bill, and that would create a discrepancy as between the respective positions of the comity and the non-county boroughs. The Government were therefore prepared to accept the Amendment.

while grateful that the Government had gone so far, was sorry it had been thought necessary to impose any limit whatever. The ratepayers, and not the House of Commons, were responsible for the expenditure of rates. That was the position taken up by the Government in 1897.

pointed out that the question of limitation of the rate had been discussed and decided in a previous Amendment; it could not, therefore, be raised on the present occasion.

said the decision of the Government rendered it unnecessary for him to state the results of inquiries he had made as to how the county boroughs would have fared under the 2d. rate, but he might say that places like Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham, would all have had deficiencies of from £5000 to £10,000 a year.

said that some Members could not be held as agreeing to the terms of the concession if it definitely excluded non-county boroughs. Amendment agreed to.

in moving to omit all words after "exceed" in line 25 to the end of line 26, and to insert "such rate," expressed the hope that the Amendment would be read in conjunction with that of the hon. Member for Rossendale to substitute the Board of Education for the Local Government Board as the authority to fix the amount of the rate. There were two schools of opinion with regard to this Bill, one of which held the view that the County Councils would go in for boundless extravagance, while the other, to which he belonged, believed the danger to be not in the extravagance, but in the apathy of the County Councils. The main danger was not that they would spend too much, but that they would spend too little. The effect of the Amendment would be in strict consonance with the intention of the proviso—viz., in the direction of economy. Both of the schools of opinion to which he had referred, ought to support the Amendment, because it would bring the local education authority into close touch with the central authority. The Leader of the House had expressed himself as opposed to any proposal which would hamper the independence and liberty of the County Councils. His own belief was that if the Government would not give the County Councils the money to proceed with a proper policy of secondary education they would have to bring some form of pressure to bear, or the country would get no secondary education at all. The Return showed that in the counties of England £470,000 was spent upon technical education. All that came out of the whisky money, with the exception of a paltry £433, which was drawn from the rates. His point was that the new education authorities would have a long way to travel before they could work up to a policy of a 2d. rate in aid of the higher education. This Amendment would establish a policy by which the central authority would be able to say to the County Council "We have had no application from you to levy a rate for secondary education, and the Board of Education wish to know what your County Council is doing in the matter." He was perfectly certain that unless some Government pressure was brought to bear, there were many counties where Part II. of the Bill would be practically inoperative in the future. They had today a system which would establish a permanent inequality of opportunity in different parts of the country. He had taken at random three wealthy counties, Lancashire, Durham, and the West Riding of Yorkshire. The existing county rate over those three counties was 4⅓d. Take the next three poor agricultural counties, Buckinghamshire, Wiltshire, and Hertfordshire, where the rate was 1s. 0¼d. as compared with 4⅓d. in the larger counties. Unless the Government took powers under this part of the Act to bring pressure to bear on these backward counties, they would have no secondary education at all in a great many of them. For these reasons he begged to move the Amendment standing in his name. Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 25, after the word 'exceed,' to leave out to end of line 26, and insert the words 'such rate.'"—(Mr. Fuller.)

thought the arguments which had been used by the hon. Member appeared to be more in favour of the principle contained in the previous Amendment, rather than the Amendment now under consideration. The hon. Member suggested that the Board of Education should be substituted for the Local Government Board, but the Board of Education had not the means, or the staff, to hold the inquiries which were necessary to see whether the proposed expenditure was reasonable or not. Then there was the proposal that the county authorities should be given unlimited discretion, subject to the control of the Local Government Board, which was to be called upon to hold inquiries and to decide whether there should be an increase of expenditure or not. This would throw an amount of work upon the Local Government Board which he did not think the hon. Member could realise, and on behalf of the Government he was obliged to ask the Committee to reject the proposal, which he did not think was in the interests of the localities and would not be the result which was desired, of having some central Department to push the local authorities forward along the path of secondary education. He thought some distinction ought to be made, and he held that inquiries by a Government Department were altogether impracticable.

said he was perfectly willing to grant that with regard to inquiries about rates there was a very strong case for trusting to the Local Government Board rather than to the Education Board. He was inclined to think that some hon. Members would ask why they were to bring in a Government Department at all to perform what he understood was to be the duty of the new Education Authority, and which was to be trusted as to the amount it was going to raise for educational purposes. This was quite a different matter to those questions in connection with which Government inquiries were now held. The real question was whether they were to trust the local authorities or not. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill, or the President of the Local Government Board, could complain of the representatives of large County Councils if they rather protested against being treated in a different manner. If anything, there was the danger which his hon. friend had described, that some counties might be rather backward. Some counties might desire to be too forward, but he supported this Amendment upon one broad ground, and that was that if they called large bodies of this kind into existence they ought to have confidence in them. Night after night from hon. Members opposite they had repeatedly heard this argument. Whether any particular county had acted wisely or not was not so very germane now, because, up to the present time, the County Councils had not had any clearly defined duty or power conferred upon them of supplying secondary education. Where the County Councils did act, they did so with the fear of Mr. Cockerton before their eyes, and, therefore, nobody could find fault with the Councils for having acted with extreme prudence in the matter. They had been asking for years that English counties should be placed in the same position as Wales with regard to secondary education, and if the Bill did this, he believed it would be found that the County Councils would do their duty.

said he did not think that his noble friend quite appreciated the effect of this Amendment, because, far from giving them more independence of action, it would tie their hands. Now surely no friend of local government ought to make such a proposal.

said an Amendment would subsequently be moved striking out the reference to any Government Department.

said that even if any reference to a Government Department were struck out, what would be the position then? The County Council would be unable to levy any rate for the purpose of secondary education without a Provisional Order. That was not a position in which the County Councils ought to be put. He had too much knowledge of the feelings of the country ratepayers to fear what had been said with regard to the amount they would spend, but at the outset it was necessary not to unduly alarm the country ratepayers. He believed that a, two-penny rate, or even a penny rate, would meet all immediate demands. It was obvious, if there was to be a division at all, there must be some moans of giving elasticity to the limit. It would enable a County Council in an exceptional position, such as the West Riding of Yorkshire, to apply to get a higher limit than that laid down in the Act. He would suggest that when that was the case, they need not resort to the cumbrous machinery of a Provisional Order. Surely the consent of a responsible Government Department, given after proper inquiry, ought to be a sufficient safeguard where a higher rate was demanded. He believed it was, an unprecedented thing that a local authority should only be able to raise a. higher rate, when it had gone through all the formalities required by the passing of a Provisional Order through Parliament. There was a provision, no doubt, in respect of borrowing powers, which was somewhat analogous to this. When a County Council had raised loans equal to one-tenth of the assessable value of the whole county, there was a provision in the Local Government Act of 1888 that the amount could only be increased by Provisional Order. He conceived that that was the precedent which the Government had followed in this case. There was a remarkable difference in the two cases. The raising of large loans affected posterity, but the rates levied only affected the present ratepayers, and surely they might be trusted to a great extent to look alter themselves. By referring to Clause 14 of the present Bill hon. Members would find that the amount to be raised by the Bill was not altogether within limits. But anyhow it was contrary to all the principles of local government to say that the County Council should not raise the rate to any extent whatever without going to a Government Department.

said tie proposal prevented any County Council from raising the rate without first of all coming to some Government Department. What his hon. friend desired was that the Education Department should be put in the Clause instead of the Local Government Board. The precedent underlying the proposal of his hon. friend behind him was rather an unfortunate one. The application to the Local Government Board under the Local Government Act was a protection against our expenditure, whereas what his hon. friend wanted was that there should be no restrictions placed on the County Council. If anything could be devised to "jog along" the County Council he would be entirely in favour of it. There was a precedent for such a course in the Public Health Act of 1875 which gave the Local Government Board power to compel local authorities to do certain things which wore in their jurisdiction. He was afraid that he would not be able to support the Amendment. He gathered from what was said by the noble Lord that he objected to the putting of any fetters on the County Councils at all, but the proposal made involved the putting of fetters on them.

A great part of my observations were devoted to answering the argument of the President of the Local Government Board in regard to the substitution of the Education Department for the Local Government Board.

said it was important to bear in mind that the rate, whether it be 2d. or 4d. was some indication of what Parliament intended the County Councils to do. The inquiry which the Local Government Board would have to hold when application was made in the way proposed would cause delay. He believed the Amendment would defeat the object which his hon. friend had in view.

said he did not see any necessity for putting in this restriction before the Committee came to deal with the question of safeguarding the pockets of the ratepayers. He thought this Amendment was the beginning of a series of Amendments that might free the hands of the County Councils. It would only remove the first part of the restrictions and leave it open to the House, or the Government, to put something in the Bill later on which would restrict the County Councils from over expenditure. Question put and agreed to.

rose to move an Amendment with the object of giving local authorities greater freedom in determining how far they would rate their districts for the purposes of secondary or technical education.

The only question now remaining is what particular figures are to be put in.

asked why the Government had drawn the line for the rate for secondary education at 2d. He would not suggest an unlimited rate, but thought that 4d. would be a reasonable rate, and accordingly he moved to leave out 2d. and insert 4d. Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 26, to leave out the word 'twopence,' and insert the word 'fourpence.'"—(Mr. Brynmore Jones.)

said that the hon. Gentleman began his speech by asking whether it was necessary to put any limit to the rate, because it was always easy to raise it up or down without detriment to the interests of the people. The Government had fixed 2d. for the reasons he had given in the previous discussions. The existing powers of the County Councils were limited to 1d., and the Government proposed to double those powers. Recognising the new duties imposed on them the Government did not wish to increase their powers, because they quite realised that in a large number of rural districts there was a considerable suspicion of the burdens about to be laid upon them by this Bill; and in the interests of education itself, it was not desirable to aggravate that suspicion. These were practical reasons which would recommend themselves to practical Members of the Committee. In view of the concession that had been made he hoped the Committee would be willing to leave the Bill in its present shape.

said he could not understand why the Government felt this extraordinary distrust of the County Councils, or why they should attribute to the ratepayers this distrust of the County Councils. He gladly admitted that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury knew probably more about the sentiments of rural England than he did, but it seemed difficult to believe that the ratepayers of rural England had so little confidence in their chosen representatives, and so little sense of what was needed in this case, as to believe that merely because a limit of 3d. or 4d. was allowed, their County Councils would rate up to that limit unless at the next election they thought that the educations needs of the country required it. The existing rate was 1d., but it was for technical instruction, and now that they were going in for secondary education there was greater reason to raise the limit. Every year the need for doing something for secondary education was becoming more recognised, and there seemed some reason to believe that it would penetrate down even to Gloucestershire. Why should the County Councils have to go to the Local Government Board, which was not an educational authority at all, for permission to exceed the limit? Would it not be better to trust the County Councils and the ratepayers themselves? He would be very glad to have any concession from the Government, and he would suggest to his hon. friend, if the Government would meet him, to fix the limit at 3d. instead of 4d.

said that the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman only confirmed the rooted suspicion which he held that the additional charges for education imposed by this Bill on the rates would, in the long run, be greater than many persons at present seemed to expect. He gathered this from experience in the past. Mr. Forster, when he introduced his Education Bill, stated that the charge on the rates would never exceed 3d. in the £, whereas at the present day ten times 3d. in some cases would not equal the charge.

said there was a very earnest desire amongst all sections of the community to get some money for secondary education from the Imperial Treasury.

That question does not arise on this Amendment.

said he thought that it bore on the matter now under discussion. It was very difficult to get a Vote from the House in behalf of secondary education, and that was really at the back of this Amendment. He had been present with a deputation which waited on the First Lord of the Treasury, when the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that one of the features of the Bill was that they would get a very large advantage from it for the building of undenominational training colleges and pupil teachers' centres; but he would like the right hon. Gentleman to show how all that could be done on the 2d. rate. Moreover, higher grade schools and evening continuation schools were necessary, and these could not he provided along the training colleges and the pupil teachers' centres on the 2d. rate. Knowing the great anxiety there was in the country to do something more than at present for secondary education, ho was sorry the First Lord did not seem inclined to meet the wishes of the people in this matter.

supported the Amendment, mainly on the ground of the difference between some administrative counties and others. Some were districts absolutely rural in their character; at present their wants were somewhat limited, although he hoped that under the new state of things their wants would greatly expand, arid that further opportunities would be afforded for providing in agricultural districts the teaching which had done be much to give the population in Denmark and France a more thorough training than our own people's, lie wished, however, to put the case of a large number of administrative counties which included urban districts under the 20,000 limit. It was obvious that in those districts the educational authority would now have to meet all the expenditure of the schools affected by the Cockerton judgment, which would now be thrown on the 2d. rate. As he understood, under this Bill those urban districts would riot be entitled to impose the penny rate concurrently with the County Councils, so that the whole of the expenditure of these Cockerton schools and evening continuation classes would be thrown upon the county education authority. In several divisions with which he was acquainted the limit of 2d. would be extremely narrow for providing for these schools withdrawn from the School Boards and thrown on the educational authority in addition to the other secondary and technical schools which would have to be supplied or aided. In his opinion, the Amendment was a reasonable one; he thought full responsibility should be thrown on the educational authority in every district. He knew that in some counties there might be a tendency to withhold the rates and deny to the people that education which was given them in continental countries, with such advantage to the nation. The wants of districts such as he represented could not be fully met at the present time, and they certainly could not be developed in the future out of this limited rate. He thought the Amendment was a very moderate one and hoped the Government would see their way to meet the Committee in this matter.

expressed the opinion that the Government ought to have regard to the facts. In some districts a very much larger sum was needed than in others, and for those the rate now proposed was utterly inadequate. The Government had given away their own case by accepting the Amendment which rightly gave the county boroughs freedom in this matter. In some counties a very large expenditure was now necessary for the building of secondary school premises in many country districts. That was an entirely new work which would come in with the new duties imposed upon them. Hitherto the cost of erecting technical schools had in some places almost absorbed the penny rate given to technical education, and he thought the Government ought to yield at once on this point and allow a greater sum than the 2d. mentioned in the Bill. It was undesirable that where a County Council was charged with the important work of education, and they saw it must exceed the 2d. rate they should have to come to the Local Government Board. The position of these County Councils was intolerable when compared with that now conceded to the County Boroughs, and he urged the Government to consent to this 2d, being struck out and the larger sum of 4d. being inserted.

said the Government had already built up a distinctive line between the County Boroughs and the County Councils. The County Boroughs were free to spend what they liked, whilst the County Councils were limited to a fixed sum. When educationists came to argue this matter with the County Councils, the answer would lie that they were limited to 2d., and that they ought to keep their expenditure.1 good deal below that limit. That would always. be the argument of the non-educationists, and, though the same argument would no doubt be used if the limit were raised to 4d., it would have a very different effect. He thought the County Councils ought to be thoroughly free. He was unable to understand the distinction drawn between the County Borough and the County Council, and he indignantly repudiated the suggestion that the County Council was not as efficient for this purpose as the County Borough. But, as there was to be a limit fixed, at all events it ought to be a generous one. Those who knew County Councils well, know there was an earnest desire to carry out the provisions of such a Bill as this, but it was perfectly impossible that they could do it within the limits proposed.

said it was perfectly true that in the West Hiding of Yorkshire they had not in early years spent all the money placed at their disposal under the Technical Education Act. At that time it was well known there was a possibility that Parliament might withdraw some of this money and devote it to other purposes. But in the year ending July next the total expenditure of the Technical Education Committee amounted to a sum of £46,000, of which £14,000 was the accumulated fund, which £14,000 would have to have come out of the rates had they not accumulated it. Nearly a halfpenny in the pound was devoted to technical instruction, and for these new duties which were to be put upon the new educational authorities they would have that amount less. There were on all sides appeals from the Technical Instruction Committees for increased grants. The West Riding of Yorkshire had an enormous variety of interests which demanded treatment—agricultural work, which was making continual new demands upon the public purse, textile work, mechanical engineering, coal mining, leather tanning; arid, in the last few years, there had been a demand for instruction in foreign languages and all classes of commerce. So that, even if these new duties had not been put upon them, the County Councils would have had to meet great demands for those subjects which they already taught. Another point to which he drew attention was that in the West Hiding there were If urban districts which would lose the right to levy the Id. rate for technical education purposes, and of those, thirty-nine had devoted sonic part of the loan fund to that purpose. One particular urban district was placed in a peculiarly difficult position by this Bill. It possessed the finest school of science in the North of England, and, having been deprived of the Id. rate, and the School Board having no power to assist in the future, the 2d. rate mentioned in the Bill would not in itself be sufficient to keep up the school. He urged that this limit of the power of rating should be taken off the County Councils.

said he hoped the Government would give a little more elasticity in this respect, and would not insist upon treating all the Councils upon the same monotonous dead level, just as if the West Riding of Yorkshire were the same as Wiltshire arid Gloucestershire. Let agricultural counties, if they desired to do so, curtail their expenditure on secondary and technical education, but let the non-agricultural counties develop their own secondary and technical education in their own way, and to the extent they deemed to be necessary for all the growing needs in respect of which repeatedly increased calls were being made on education in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford had given some rather pessimistic prophecies as to what the future of these rates would be, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that what had happened in elementary education in some isolated instances need not necessarily happen in connection with secondary education, and if the power of rating themselves up to a point beyond 2d. was granted to the counties of England, he thought the power would not be exercised in an extravagant way. (5.33.) Question put. The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 252.)